=========================================================================
Date:
Sat, 24 May 1997 18:21:28 -0700
Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From:
Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject:
Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape
In-Reply-To:
<199705250034.RAA10619@denmark.it.earthlink.net> from "Gerald
Nicosia" at May 24, 97 05:34:11 pm
Gerald Nicosia writes:
> Attila Gyensis writes:
>
>
"...the financial assistance that I have received from Mr. Sampas
> amounts to a grand total (let me check my
calculator) $0, nada, zero, nulla,
> nothing, zip."
>
> May
I suggest, Mr. Gyensis, that you are being a little coy in the
> matter of advertisements that have magically
appeared in your magazine,
> DHARMA BEAT?
> In
the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received
> numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin, Mr.
Sampas's publisher. Your
> fall 1995 issue even had TWO full-page ads from
Viking. You received a
> half-page ad from Rykodisc for a record that was
produced by Jim Sampas.
> You received a full-page ad for BIG SKY MIND, the
Buddhist Beat collection
> with which Mr. John Sampas was intimately
connected (the editor states: "A
> special debt of gratitude is owed to John Sampas,
the Literary Executor of
...
The fact that you would speak like this to Attila
Gyenis proves to me
what you're doing wrong.
I've hung out with Attila a few times, and he is one
of the sweetest,
gentlest most philosophical and non-greedy people I've
ever met.
Furthermore, the one time I discussed you and your
activities
with him (a few months ago over some beers after he
and I
attended the play "Kerouac" together) he was
taking your side,
and telling me about some of your good points. You've gone and
turned another friend into an enemy! As you did with me.
Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve
problems. Stop
bullying people around. You could better
serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.
Recently at a LaGuardia Airport taxi stand, I saw a
great sign:
"BE POLITE!
IT'S NICE TO BE IMPORTANT, BUT IT"S MORE IMPORTANT
TO BE NICE".
Please, Gerry Nicosia, start going with the flow
a little more.
Estate battles happen. The world
survives.
Let's talk about something else. Maybe, to get us off on
a different topic, you could tell us about the Vietnam
book
you're writing.
I'd really like to hear about it.
When do
you expect it will be published?
------------------------------------------------------
Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
Literary
Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
(the
beat literature web site)
Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
(my fantasy folk-rock
album)
###################################
"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"
-- Bob Dylan
-----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:
Sat, 24 May 1997 21:34:13 -0400
Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From:
Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Re: Law suits
In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:
>he will be held accountable for whatever he says
here that is damaging to my
professional reputation.
>
Thank you.
>
Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself,
too, Gerry.
=========================================================================
Date:
Sat, 24 May 1997 21:45:02 -0400
Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Re: Jim Carroll & Richard Hell
In a message dated 97-05-23 16:23:28 EDT, you write:
<< We are always seeking suggestions of suitable
artists to promote...
Any and all
suggestions from the admirable minds of Beat-L would be
appreciated.
>>
Charles Plymell
Pam
=========================================================================
Date:
Sat, 24 May 1997 21:53:34 -0400
Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From:
chatfield residence <chatfield@VOYAGER.NET>
Subject:
hello
hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i
have joined because i
am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i
thought that many of the
people on this list would be knowledgeable in that
area. My question for
research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and
how was he influenced by,
the "beat generation"?"
if a few kind people have any ideas on what books
would be helpful to me,
or if anyone has any answers to that question
themselves, please e-mail me
at
chatfield@voyager.net
i would not like
to tie up the list with things that most people would find
annoying,
especially because i am new here. : )
thanks.
--amy jean
"hold me
down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."
-r.e.m.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:48:43 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: hello
Hi Amy Jean,
Have you yet had a chance to search the
web for references on this
question? I
actually mad emy way to the list as a result of searching for
refs to Slim
Gaillard, which led me to Jack Kerouac and on to the Beat list.
If you're
interested and if you can use it I can send you a Netscape browser
bookmark list
with many of the relevant sites.Start
with list member Levi
Asher's Lierary
Kicks site at
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html
The short reply to your question, which
others will ably expand on
is that Kerouac,
Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs - the core of the
Beat generation
writers - were very taken with a guy named Huncke, a small
time crook,
junkie, man about town, and occasional writer. He talked
regularly about
being and feeling Beat.
They added it to their vocabulary and
their friend John Clellon
Holmes (author of
"Go") talked to Jack Kerouac about being beat and some of
this material
appeared in "Go".
It was Jack who first talked about the
Beat Generation and Holmes
credited him with
that. first conversations were about 1947; "Go was
published in 1952
;the New York Times published a short piece about Beat
after Gilbert
Milstein, an editor there, noticed the reference to the Beat
Generation in
"Go" and asked Holmes to supply an article. [much of this is
from Dennis McNally's "Desolate Angel: Jack Kerouac and the
Beat Generation".
************
So your question
might need to be rethought, since some might argue that
Jack and a small
circle of friends WERE the Beat Generation.... "How did
Jack kerouac
influence, and how was he influenced by, the "beat generation"?"
Antoine
Would also recommend folowing web site:
http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/beats.htm
The Beat Generation Archives
And
http://enterzone.berkeley.edu/ez/e2/articles/digaman.html
How Beat Happened by Steve Silberman
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:51:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: hello again
Hi again Amy
Jean....
And one more, the John Clellon Holmes
article This is the Beat
Generation for
the New York Times! available at:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/ThisIsBeatGen.html
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:55:16 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Memory Babe Archive
Dear Friends on
the Beat-List: May 24, 1997
I feel it necessary to correct some
very misleading information that
Phil Chaput has
posted on the Beat-List concerning the MEMORY BABE archive.
He would have you
think that the archive has never been closed.
For all
intents and
purposes, it IS closed, and has been ever since Mr. Sampas went
over there to
complain about open access in June, 1995.
It is important that I warn you all,
lest you waste your time and
money traveling
to Lowell, Massachusetts to make use of this unique and
irreplaceable
collection.
HERE'S WHAT YOU'LL BE TOLD WHEN YOU
ARRIVE:
You cannot make full use of this
collection unless you get
permission from
the 300 people Gerald Nicosia interviewed.
Never mind that
100 of these
people are now dead. You must get
permission from the dead
people's heirs.
Where do you start? The university, I was told, has the addresses
of FIVE of these
people.
Does that sound like a daunting
task? It is more than daunting--it
is AWESOME! I, who created this collection, could not now
find all 300
people and their
heirs. It is IMPOSSIBLE.
Never mind, of course, that all these
people consented to be
interviewed for a
major biography, knowing full well EVERYTHING THEY SAID
WAS BEING TAPED
AND WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR USE IN MY BOOK.
What about the 2,000 xerox Kerouac
letters? You can't use those
either, without
John Sampas's permission, and he has been known to make
getting his
permission a quite difficult process.
(Ask Steve Turner, who
wrote ANGELHEADED
HIPSTER, if you don't believe me.)
Well, you may say, MR. SAMPAS HAS EVERY RIGHT
TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM
READING THOSE
2,000 xerox Kerouac letters. No, he
doesn't.
Tomorrow, if I choose, I can read every
Kerouac letter at Columbia
University,
Stanford University, Bancroft Library (Berkeley), Reed College,
the Newberry
Library, and the Humanities Research Center at the University
of Texas,
Austin--WITHOUT MR. SAMPAS'S PERMISSION!!!
Surprised? Mr. Sampas has even phoned the University of
Texas and
Bancroft Library
in Berkeley, to insist that scholars could not see their
Kerouac letters
without his permission.
You know what Texas and Bancroft told
Mr. Sampas? Sorry, sir, YOU
DO NOT HAVE THAT
RIGHT.
If these libraries are breaking the law
by showing Kerouac letters
to scholars, why
hasn't Mr. Sampas taken them to court???
It is only because the University of
Massachusetts, Lowell, has bent
to Mr. Sampas's
will (I might say willfulness) that the MEMORY BABE
collection is
closed to the public.
For all of you who care about the
importance of this collection,
please know that
I AM TAKING LEGAL ACTION to free the MEMORY BABE archive,
and your support
could be very helpful.
In the meantime, better think twice
before packing your bags for a
scholarly trip to
Lowell. Better call librarian Martha
Mayo first, and
better have your
300 signed permissions in hand.
Sorry, but that's the way it is-- Gerry
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:02:51 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Law suits
At 09:34 PM
5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:
>
>>he will
be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my
>professional
reputation.
>> Thank you.
>> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
>
>'Seems to me
that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.
>
>
C'mon, Rod, you
can do better than that. We expect
something REALLY NASTY
from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs
at that one.
Best, Gerry
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:23:13 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape
>I've hung out
with Attila a few times, and he is one of the sweetest,
>gentlest most
philosophical and non-greedy people I've ever met.
>Furthermore,
the one time I discussed you and your activities
>with him (a
few months ago over some beers after he and I
>attended the
play "Kerouac" together) he was taking your side,
>and telling
me about some of your good points.
You've gone and
>turned
another friend into an enemy! As you did
with me.
>Your tactics
are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you
solve
>problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better
>serve your
own cause with more peaceful tactics.
>------------------------------------------------------
> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>
> Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
> (the beat literature web site)
>
> Queensboro
Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
> (my fantasy folk-rock album)
>
> ###################################
>
> "Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
> -- Bob Dylan
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
Levi, 5/24/97
Bentz Kirby commented about what a
"weird scene" it is on the
Beat-List, and
one of the weirdest things is how people here keep calling up
down, green red,
and enemies friends.
A few nights ago, Attila Gyensis told
(lied) to the Beat-L readers
that I had spent
years "demanding" to be invited to Lowell by Lowell
Celebrates
Kerouac! (a committee he is or has been a member of). The truth
is, I have never
so much as written Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! a single
letter, or even called
them on the phone.
Yet, Mr. Gyensis is supposed to be
"taking my side."
You were supposed to be my
"friend," and you falsely embarrass me
here on the
Beat-List, claiming I arbitrarily forced you to pull Jan's
PARROT FEVER from
your website (as if I were on some kind of power trip a la
Rod Anstee), when
I had already explained to you, in writing, in detail,
that I was being
legally constrained by Jan's heirs from letting you publish
the piece (even
on the internet) for nothing.
Now I don't expect Mr. Gyensis is
getting rich off John Sampas.
When I dropped
his name a few posts ago, it was because so much intense
scrutiny of my
and Jan's finances has been posted on this net by people like
Anstee and
Chaput. So I wanted to turn the tables
for a moment, just so
those on the
other side would know what it feels like to be asked questions
about every penny
you ever earned or were helped to earn.
When Mr. Gyensis makes false (and
essentially damaging) accusations
about me, I have
to wonder what his motives are, and I would have to be a
fool to think
that Mr. Sampas has not been helpful to him in publishing his
magazine.
The bottom line, here, Levi, is not
that I'm a mean or vicious
person (ask the
60 ladies over at my mom's nursing home, whom I visit every
day). The bottom line is that I'm tired of an
onslaught of vicious,
personal attacks
on me--which have all arisen because certain people don't
want to answer
the really important questions about what Mr. Sampas is doing
with Jack
Kerouac's archive. And I want those
people to know that I don't
lie down and play
dead at the first shove. I shove
back. And if you shove
harder, I shove
harder.
I'm ready to lower the intensity of
this debate any time the other
side is. Or perhaps more to the point, I'm ready to
play clean--without the
Rodman-like
kicks, elbows, and body-blocks--as soon as the other side shows
me the same
courtesy.
It's them you should be lecturing, not
me.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:27:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Law suits
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> At 09:34 PM
5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a
message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:
> >
> >>he
will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my
>
>professional reputation.
>
>> Thank you.
>
>> Yours truly, Gerald
Nicosia
> >
> >'Seems
to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.
> >
> >
>
> C'mon, Rod,
you can do better than that. We expect
something REALLY NASTY
> from
you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll
his eyeballs at that one.
> Best, Gerry
What's with all
the Rodman-bashing???
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:36:45 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: hello
At 09:53 PM
5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>hi, my name
is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined because i
>am doing a
research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many of the
>people on
this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question for
>research is,
"How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by,
>the
"beat generation"?"
>if a few kind
people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to me,
>or if anyone
has any answers to that question themselves, please e-mail me
>at
>chatfield@voyager.net
>i would not
like to tie up the list with things that most people would find
>annoying,
especially because i am new here. : )
>thanks.
>--amy jean
>
>
>
>
>"hold me
down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."
>-r.e.m.
>
Dear Amy
Jean-- May 24, 1997
Thanks for giving me the chance to show
I don't think about literary
estates and
lawsuits all my waking hours (my little daughter Wu Ji would
never allow
that).
Read my biography of Jack Kerouac,
MEMORY BABE (from University of
California
Press), or if you're not into 800-page books, read a shorter
version of things
by Steven Turner called ANGELHEADED HIPSTER (Viking); read
John Clellon
Holmes' NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE (reissued, I believe, from U.
of Arkansas
Press); read John Tytell's NAKED ANGELS; get ahold of the
catalogue to the
Whitney Museum Show: BEAT CULTURE AND THE NEW AMERICA (you
can order it from
the Whitney Museum Book Shop in New York City); and maybe
try listening to
HOWLS RAPS & ROARS, on record, CD, or tape from Fantasy
Records in
Berkeley. Better yet, if you are near
California, visit City
Lights Bookstore,
the poetry and Beat room upstairs, see if you can have
coffee with the
owner, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and sit in Kerouac's
corner in
Vesuvio's bar next door, where many of the old Beat poets still
hang out, like
Jack Micheline, Howard Hart, Eugene Ruggles, and Marty Matz.
Beat was a very
large community, of which only a small iceberg tip ever got
famous; it was
supportive, compassionate, open toward life, and in constant
pursuit of joy
and new experience--and Kerouac led the way.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:45:45 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Law suits
At 10:27 PM
5/24/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>>
>> At 09:34
PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >In a
message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:
>> >
>>
>>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging
to my
>>
>professional reputation.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Yours truly, Gerald
Nicosia
>> >
>>
>'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> C'mon,
Rod, you can do better than that. We
expect something REALLY NASTY
>> from
you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll
his eyeballs at that one.
>> Best, Gerry
>
>What's with
all the Rodman-bashing???
>
Hey, Dave,
I LIKE Dennis Rodman. Why was that a bash?
Best, Gerry
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:55 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Gargolye magazine
At 01:29 PM
5/24/97 EST, you wrote:
>This may be
repeat information as I think I lost some mail during a recent
>thunderstorm
here in the outback So excuse me if this is old news but the
>latest issue
of Gargoyle Magazine, number 39/40, has an excerpt of Joan Haverty
>Kerouac's
autobiography in it (this would be Jan's mother). Give it a look
>should you
spy a copy.
>
>One more
thing, any fans of Larry Eigner out there? Re-reading some of his work
>as he died a
few months ago, I was happy to have my memory re-freshed to what a
>fine poet he
was. Sorry he had to die for me to look at his work again...but if
>you get a
chance, give Larry a read. Adios to a great poet.
>
>dave B.
>
Dave, May 24, 1997
I believe Jack Foley, who was a close
friend of Eigner's, did a
memorial show for
him on Foley's radio program (I forget the name) on
KPFA-FM radio in
Berkeley. If you call the station, they
can probably sell
you a copy of the
show, if you're interested.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:58:31 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape
In-Reply-To:
<199705250121.SAA23363@netcom.netcom.com>
On Sat, 24 May
1997, Levi Asher wrote:
> Your tactics
are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you
solve
>
problems. Stop bullying people
around. You could better
> serve your
own cause with more peaceful tactics.
>
> Please, Gerry Nicosia, start going with the
flow
> a little
more. Estate battles happen. The world survives.
> Let's talk
about something else. Maybe, to get us
off on
> a different topic,
you could tell us about the Vietnam book
> you're
writing. I'd really like to hear about
it. When do
> you expect
it will be published?
levi and friends:
"start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the
rap weasels the
world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing
that's said when
people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away
from passion and
the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that i
wish the
whole estate
battle could be solved with a magic swing of a wand, but
it aint gonna
happen that way. none of any waterheaded
zen crap will
zone-out a long
(and necessary) airing of the two sides' positions. don't
zero in on
nicosia as the "bad" guy. levi, you say some very wise things
a lot of the
time--and you have a boffo web site--but quit the whining
about
nicosia. if you hate the back and forth
poison re: the estate
battle, why not
get on anstee and chaput, too??? the couple of times i've
read posts reZ:
the estate thing, you've been on nicosia's case. perhaps
i am being a bit
simplistic here, but ....
we should be (and
i am) glad nicosia is rapping on the list--about
anything he
wants. if we can think lisa rabey's rap on cocksucking is
okay for the
list, why whip out the cattleprods when nicosia et al go
back and forth on
the estate thing?
i like reading
about the battle.
let's let the
camps have it out.
it's much more
interesting than all the geek posts from people wondering
whether george
bush, george clooney, kesey, socks the cat, and bozo the
clown, etc. are
beat or not.
let the voices
roll. keep yer fingers on the delete key. and keep yer
heads open. after
all, this is advertised as a "forum", right?
regards,
steve
Steve R. Smith
Graduate Teaching
Assistant
Department of
English
Portland State
University
Box 751 Portland,
OR 97207
503-725-3556
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:06:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: hello
In a message
dated 97-05-24 21:49:37 EDT, chatfield@VOYAGER.NET (chatfield
residence) writes:
<< i would
not like to tie up the list with things that most people would
find
annoying, especially because i am new here. :
)
thanks. >>
Dear amy jean -
what a refreshing
and considerate attitude. you are setting a good example.
others who
consider themselves Kerouac experts could learn from your gentle
thoughtfulness.
Talking about the beats is why we're here, most of us, so you
could never annoy
us with that.
In response to
your question: sometimes the phrase "beat generation" refers
to the writers
and other principals, and sometimes (perhaps less often) it is
used to indicate
all the people of that generation. If you want to know how
Kerouac
influenced the beat generation writers, you need to realize that he,
Allen Ginsberg and
William Burroughs are the only ones whom everyone agrees
"belong"
as beat writers. They were all friends and they influenced each
other.
It is sometimes
thought that Kerouac had more influence on the following
generation -
let's call them the hippies for nostalgia's sake! - than he did
on people of his
own age group.
I concur with
Antoine about the various resources available and would also
recommend
spending some
time with the Jack Kerouac ROMnibus
CD-ROM if you can borrow
(or afford) one.
Good luck!
Jul
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:44:30 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right
>If you want
to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then answer me
>this. Did you know Jack when your were a kid? Tell us about it. I'm sure
>others will
be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about
>something
where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.
>
>
>Jerry Cimino
>
>Thanks Jerry,
I did meet Jack once although it is not much of a story and
it's kind of a
sad one to me. It was around 1966 (I'm not sure of the exact
date) I was 13 or
14 years old and my father had picked up Jack and the two
of them were
going to go into Boston for a night out on the town. My father
in his grand
wisdom had thought it would be a memorable experience for me to
go with them,
probably so I could get to know Jack and maybe he was thinking
that at some
point in my life I would realize what an incredibly cool
experience it
would have been. So anyway they drove up to where I was
hanging around at
the time (a park in downtown Lowell) called Lucy Larcom
park. I was a
long haired hippie at the time and my father lived in another
area of town than
I did because my parents had divorced. That's why I hadn't
met Jack before
because my father mostly went to his house and picked him up
because he didn't
drive and my father also had a car. He had only been over
to my father's
house a few times, although Jack had met my father's mother
my Memere and he
also introduced his mother Gabrielle to my Memere. Memere
to Memere. So
anyway he called me over to the car and introduced Jack to me.
He was sitting in
the back of the car and I reached in and shook his hand
and said hello.
My father then told me that they were going into Boston for
the night and he
asked me if I wanted to go with him. Like a
fool-moron-jerk-idiot-
I declined and told them politely thanks anyway but
I'd would rather
just hang around the park. There was some kind of action
going on and at
the time (I was probably going to score and get high or
something) I
wasn't into Kerouac then. I just knew him as the famous Lowell
author and good
friend of my dad's. My brother on the other hand was really
into Jack and had
read every single book Jack had written. I realized later
that Jack had
probably gotten into the back seat that night assuming I would
go with them and
maybe it was kind of an insult but then again maybe it was
just so Jack
could be more comfortable. What I remember of him that night is
that he already
had a good head start on his night out. In other words he
was already
starting to get pretty drunk and I could tell. He also looked
fat to me at the
time and red faced. Looking back I wouldn't now think he
was fat but
that's what I thought of him at the time. I guess I was
expecting
something else. So that's about it the only other time was about 2
or 3 years later
in 69 when they buried him. I was going to St. Joseph's
High School at
the time which is just down the street from St. Jean the
Baptist church
where they had the funeral mass for Jack. I skipped out of
class and walked
down the street and stood in the doorway of Voyer's florist
shop. I knew Joe
Voyer he was a pretty cool guy (he also knew Jack and my
dad) and let me
hang out or hide out while I watched my father as a
pallbearer carry
Jack's body into the church. The night I didn't go with
them Jack and my
dad went over and asked my brother Tony if he wanted to go
with them and of
course he jumped at the chance. He had the most memorable
experience of his
life. He really loved Jack. He got to drill Jack with all
kinds of
questions like "what was your favorite drug?" things only a teen
would ask. I have
been trying to get him to write a story about it for a
long time. He promises
me now he will do it soon. He lives in California.
Jack did mention
me in one of his letters when he asked my dad " ...have you
found your boy
yet..." I had ran away from home for a while at 14 and had
started my own
"on the road" trip. Stella had also sent a Christmas card in
1968 asking my
dad "Have you found Philip?" I still have that card and
letter and I
cherish them. To this day I regret not having gone with my dad
and Jack that
night. So that's how I got to know and love Jack Kerouac.
Thanks for asking
and listening. Phil
I was wondering
if anyone else on the list might have a story to tell about
meeting Jack or
any of the beats. Might be an interesting thread.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:01:34 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right
... The night I
didn't go with
>them Jack and
my dad went over and asked my brother Tony if he wanted to go
>with them and
of course he jumped at the chance. He had the most memorable
>experience of
his life. He really loved Jack. He got to drill Jack with all
>kinds of
questions like "what was your favorite drug?" things only a teen
>would ask. I
have been trying to get him to write a story about it for a
>long time. He
promises me now he will do it soon. He lives in California.
>Jack did
mention me in one of his letters when he asked my dad " ...have you
>found your
boy yet..." I had ran away from home for a while at 14 and had
>started my
own "on the road" trip. Stella had also sent a Christmas card in
>1968 asking
my dad "Have you found Philip?" I still have that card and
>letter and I
cherish them. To this day I regret not having gone with my dad
>and Jack that
night. So that's how I got to know and love Jack Kerouac.
>Thanks for
asking and listening. Phil
>
>I was
wondering if anyone else on the list might have a story to tell about
>meeting Jack
or any of the beats. Might be an interesting thread.
>
Phil, May 24, 1997
I remember sitting in your dad's
kitchen, and Tony telling me that
same story. I think I even put it on tape.
Thanks for your memories.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:01:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Bush
Well, Steve, I
think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and
cross bones.
Peace,
Hillary, no, Bill yes,
Snoopy yes, Socks
the Cat no
me, yes, my wife,
no
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:09:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: hello
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
> At 09:53 PM
5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >hi, my
name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined
> because i
> >am doing
a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many
> of the
> >people
on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question
> for
> >research
is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he
> influenced
by,
> >the
"beat generation"?"
> >if a few
kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to
> me,
> >or if
anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please
> e-mail me
> >at
>
>chatfield@voyager.net
> >i would
not like to tie up the list with things that most people
> would find
>
>annoying, especially because i am new here. : )
> >thanks.
> >--amy
jean
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's
>
confined."
> >-r.e.m.
> >
> Dear Amy
Jean-- May 24, 1997
>
> Thanks for giving me the chance to
show I don't think about
> literary
> estates and
lawsuits all my waking hours (my little daughter Wu Ji
> would
> never allow
that).
> Read my biography of Jack Kerouac,
MEMORY BABE (from
> University
of
> California
Press), or if you're not into 800-page books, read a
> shorter
> version of
things by Steven Turner called ANGELHEADED HIPSTER
> (Viking);
read
> John Clellon
Holmes' NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE (reissued, I believe,
> from U.
> of Arkansas
Press); read John Tytell's NAKED ANGELS; get ahold of the
> catalogue to
the Whitney Museum Show: BEAT CULTURE AND THE NEW AMERICA
> (you
> can order it
from the Whitney Museum Book Shop in New York City); and
> maybe
> try listening
to HOWLS RAPS & ROARS, on record, CD, or tape from
> Fantasy
> Records in
Berkeley. Better yet, if you are near
California, visit
> City
> Lights
Bookstore, the poetry and Beat room upstairs, see if you can
> have
> coffee with
the owner, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and sit in
> Kerouac's
> corner in
Vesuvio's bar next door, where many of the old Beat poets
> still
> hang out,
like Jack Micheline, Howard Hart, Eugene Ruggles, and Marty
> Matz.
> Beat was a
very large community, of which only a small iceberg tip
> ever got
> famous; it
was supportive, compassionate, open toward life, and in
> constant
> pursuit of
joy and new experience--and Kerouac led the way.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
Amy Jean:
If you is interested
in beat and Kerouac, what better and cooler thing
could there be
than to post an question and get an answer from one of
the preeminent
biographers of Kerouac. Man, the www is
the collective
unconscious. Can you imagine the chat rooms with Neal, Jack,
Allen,
Vidal, Snyder,
Corson, and Rexroth ranting through the night.
Wow, like a holy
vision, it lights up my night!!!!
You don't know
how lucky you are. And I am glad that I
do know how
lucky I am to be
here today.
Thanks Gerry, and
you are just going to have to let the shit slid man.
Sometimes it
works out better that way.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:14:03 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right
Phil Chaput
wrote:
> >If you
want to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then
> answer me
>
>this. Did you know Jack when your
were a kid? Tell us about it.
> I'm sure
> >others
will be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about
>
>something where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.
> >
> >
> >Jerry
Cimino
> >
> >Thanks
Jerry, I did meet Jack once although it is not much of a story
> and
> it's kind of
a sad one to me. It was around 1966 (I'm not sure of the
> exact
> date) I was
13 or 14 years old and my father had picked up Jack and
> the two
> of them were
going to go into Boston for a night out on the town.
Thanks for the
story. As I just said when I came across
Gerry's post to
the young
inquirer, Man, this is a great place to be.
I do appreciate
it.
Peace,
PS,
Wasn't something
written by Jack, or by a biographer about a kid from
Lowell being
along on a trip?
Well, the best I
can say is that Jack died on my 16th birthday. October
21.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:19:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Philip Whalen
Question re:
Philip Whalen:
Can anyone tell me how much of Whalen's
poetry is still in print and
from who?
And, does anyone know
where/in-what-book his poem "big, high song to
somebody"
was published?
Thanks, Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:19:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: ...your story Phil and Jack in Brooklyn
That was great to read Phil. Thanks
very much. Tell your brother
that you now have
a bunch of salivating expectant readers waiting...and that
you won't give
out his home address if he writes the damn story! I can put
it in with this
and the piece that you sent me by Nicosia about Jack and
your Dad on the
road to Montreal. Thanks.
Having grown up in Brooklyn - the
Bedford-Stuyvesant/Flatbush/Park
Slope area - I'd
appreciate it if anyone could tell me where in Brooklyn
Jack was staying
with his aunt while he was going to Horace Mann.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:32:06 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right
Gentlemen! (Phil and Gerry)!
What a delight to
get both of your posts back to back, one after another on
my email. Nicosia sitting in Chaput Sr.'s kitchen
talking to Phil's brother
about Jack. All of us having been caught in the cross
fire the last few
days, who'd have
thought it! :^)
Gerry, what about
you? I don't think you ever met Jack in
person, but I
could be
mistaken. And if not, what got you in to
him in the first place.
Maybe we can put
the war aside for a little while and talk about the man
himself. And then if and when we start *debating*
again maybe things will be
a little more
diffused. Whaddya say all? It's a holiday weekend... even in
real shooting
wars they usually stop firing on Christmas eve and Christmas
being a long way
off maybe this is the next best thing!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:38:04 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....
Gerry,
Is there an easy way to tell whether
you actually did tape Tony
telling that
story? ...and is it part of the
holdings of your archive at
Lowell? Thanks
Gerry.
Thanks you also by the way for your kind
offer of the signed copy of
"Memory
Babe". A friend beat you to the punch in finding me a copy of an
earlier edition.
The response to my request was amazing, because in rapid
succession I had
e-mails from Derek Beaulieu, Jerry Cimino, and yourself and
a phone call!
from Rod Anstee...all with offers of the book! So, at any
rate, it's on its
way to me - and not a moment too soon. I'm heading into
the home stretch
on McNally's book (after David Rhaesa blew by me at high
speed! - he had
been about 40 pages back when we started tracking each
other's progress)
and will need another Kerouac biography to keep going
with. Am now
interested also in "Angel Headed Hipster" after seeing it
mentioned several
times in recent posts. Still have the Arthur and Kit
Knoght, Gregory
Stephenson, and Challis books waiting in the wings as backups.
How did you come to do the "Memory
Babe" bio? Did you arrive at it
from academia /
teaching?
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:05:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re:
Law suits
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97052420300442@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Gentle
listmembers, I don't think Beat-l is the proper place to give or
>take legal
depositions. Let's leave any talk of
lawsuits in the
>attorney's
office where they belong or at least threaten each other
>privately.
However, if suits
are filed, please inform the list.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cosmic Baseball Association
<cosmic@CLARK.NET>
Subject: Beat and Marriage
>Well, Steve,
I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and
>cross bones.
-snip-
>me, yes, my
wife, no
>
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
Is it possible to
be beat and married?
Regards,
Andrew
cosmic@clark.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:27:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Law suits
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> At 10:27 PM
5/24/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
> >>
> >> At
09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
>In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:
> >>
>
> >>
>>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging
> to my
> >>
>professional reputation.
> >>
>> Thank you.
> >>
>> Yours truly, Gerald
Nicosia
> >>
>
> >>
>'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
> >>
C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that.
We expect something REALLY NASTY
> >>
from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even
roll his eyeballs at that one.
>
>> Best, Gerry
> >
> >What's
with all the Rodman-bashing???
> >
> Hey, Dave,
>
> I LIKE Dennis Rodman. Why was that a bash?
> Best, Gerry
i misread. my foul.
i like Dennis too.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> Gerry,
>
> Is there an easy way to tell whether
you actually did tape Tony
> telling that
story? ...and is it part of the
holdings of your archive at
> Lowell? Thanks
Gerry.
>
> Thanks you also by the way for your
kind offer of the signed copy of
> "Memory
Babe". A friend beat you to the punch in finding me a copy of an
> earlier
edition. The response to my request was amazing, because in rapid
> succession I
had e-mails from Derek Beaulieu, Jerry Cimino, and yourself and
> a phone
call! from Rod Anstee...all with offers of the book! So, at any
> rate, it's
on its way to me - and not a moment too soon. I'm heading into
> the home
stretch on McNally's book (after David Rhaesa blew by me at high
> speed! - he
had been about 40 pages back when we started tracking each
> other's
progress) and will need another Kerouac biography to keep going
> with. Am now
interested also in "Angel Headed Hipster" after seeing it
> mentioned
several times in recent posts. Still have the Arthur and Kit
> Knoght,
Gregory Stephenson, and Challis books waiting in the wings as backups.
>
> How did you come to do the
"Memory Babe" bio? Did you arrive at it
> from
academia / teaching?
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
Right now I'm
reading Memory Babe and Charter's Kerouac at the same
time. very different styles both incredible. I also checked you Dharma
Lion about
Ginsberg but haven't really cracked it yet.
though three at
the same time
might be fun.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 05:13:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: A bright sunny day in May
Hey Mark,
I got the Kerouac
Quarterly, thanks.
Hows it going.
Still I haven't made it to Portland but
I'm enjoying my stay
here in Northern
California. I might be back to New York for a week or so in
July but I don't
know it I'll make it up north.
well, now I think
that things will start to slowly start dying down. But it
has been an
interesting ride. I personally think I got a little scholarship
out of this whole
thing, since I learned a few new things.
later, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:19:46 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: thanks, phil
In-Reply-To:
<2.2.32.19970525044430.006adf58@pop.tiac.net>
great story.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:19:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
In-Reply-To: <199705250743.DAA00985@mail.clark.net>
andrew wrote
>Is it
possible to be beat and married?
@@@@@@@@@
hey andrew, i
dont have an answer for you, but have to thank you for
question, and
upon digging through all things beat, ijust found and re-read
corso's pome 'marriage'
too long for me
to type out. here are a few salient
quotes:
should i get
married? should i be good?
astound the girl
next door
with my velvet
suit and faustus hood?...
........
O God and the
wedding! all her family and her friends
and only a
handful of mine all scroungy and bearded
just waiting to
get at the drinks and food
.........
o but what about
love? i forget love
not that i am
incapable of love
it's just that i
see love as odd as wearing shoes--
i never wanted to
marry a girl who was like my mother
and ingrid
bergman was always impossible
and there's maybe
a girl now but she's already married
and i dont like
men and--
but there's bound
to be somebody!
because what if
i'm 60 years old and not married,
all alone in a
furnished room with pee stains on my underwear
and everybody
else is married! all the universt married but me!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:43:36 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> andrew wrote
> >Is it
possible to be beat and married?
> @@@@@@@@@
> hey andrew,
i dont have an answer for you, but have to thank you for
> question,
and upon digging through all things beat, ijust found and re-read
> corso's pome 'marriage'
> too long for
me to type out. here are a few salient
quotes:
>
> should i get
married? should i be good?
> astound the
girl next door
> with my
velvet suit and faustus hood?...
> ........
> O God and
the wedding! all her family and her friends
> and only a
handful of mine all scroungy and bearded
> just waiting
to get at the drinks and food
> .........
> o but what
about love? i forget love
> not that i
am incapable of love
> it's just
that i see love as odd as wearing shoes--
> i never
wanted to marry a girl who was like my mother
> and ingrid
bergman was always impossible
> and there's
maybe a girl now but she's already married
> and i dont
like men and--
> but there's
bound to be somebody!
> because what
if i'm 60 years old and not married,
> all alone in
a furnished room with pee stains on my underwear
> and
everybody else is married! all the universt married but me!
I just read this
one recently in some collection. at
times it made my
bone marrow jerk
a bit the identifications were so compleat.
Another morning
and another wonderful day started by the notes from
sweet marie. a true breath of fresh air.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:08:04 -0400
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From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Thanks for your support
In a message
dated 97-05-24 20:35:06 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:
<< In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT,
you have received
numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin .....
No other Kerouac publication ever got
that kind of major advertising
>>
Dear Mr.
Nicosiais:
If your publisher
is interested in placing a full page ad, please have them
contact me. I'll
see if I can ok it with the proper authorities.
Best,
Attila Gyenis
Editor
DHARMA beat
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:16:34 +0200
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From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen
<Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
In-Reply-To:
<"noralf.uib.646:25.05.97.04.02.54"@uib.no>
Tra un fiore
colto e l'altro donato
l'inesprimibile
vanita
Fiore doppio
nato in grembo
alla madonna
della gioia
Between a flower
gathered and the other given/ the inexpressible vanity/ /
Double flower/
born of the womb of our lady/ of joy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:25:12 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: You go JO
However, if suits
are filed, please inform the list.
j grant
____________________________
Jo:
I don't know if
you were just serious, or if you also were poking fun at
our love of the
morbidity of it all, but to me, LOL. And
as an
attorney, yeah
let me know too! ;-)
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:36:55 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Word games
I have always
loved word games. Even though I have
always sucked at
crossword
puzzles. I always saw them like a haiku,
and love Rexroths
One Hundred Poems
from the Japanese and Snyders use of Japanese-Oriental
imagery. Since someone else posted some cool stuff, I
thought I would
risk the
criticism of the beat world and post one of my little attempts
at irony things
here. Please excuse me.
Toxic Reins
The City and the
Country
Are two places.
If my wife was
not blind to Toxi-city,
My children could
ride horses.
Like Bukowski.
May 25, 1997 9:34
AM
Since all the
comments about Bukowski, I could not resist the allusion.
Peace,
Bentz
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:39:39 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
Comments: To:
cosmic@clark.net
Cosmic Baseball
Association wrote:
> >Well,
Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull
> and
> >cross
bones.
> -snip-
> >me, yes,
my wife, no
> >
> >--
> >Bentz
>
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
> Is it
possible to be beat and married?
>
> Regards,
> Andrew
>
cosmic@clark.net
Andrew:
Is the CBA
open? I have not been able to get back
in lately. I was
trying to tell
someone of your wonderful site and the the URL started
telling me that
clark.net does not exist.
Thanks and oh
yeah, probably it is a bumpy bumpy ride, because two beats
should not
marry. They would spin off into a morass
of
ADD/hyperactivity.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:50:24 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Corso on Kerouac
As I prepare for
my trip to San Francisco, I have pulled all my City
Lights Pocket
Poets off the shelf and begun to read and re-read them. I
want to drink a
coffee with Lawrence, and I want to feel the grass in
the park that is
the child of the grass that Jack felt.
So, I started
today with
Elegiac Feelings American (for the dear memory of John
Kerouac) by
Gregory Corso. I think parts are worth
repeating, Yo, Race,
this can't be
Marie, but it could be absolutely sweet:
1.
How inseparable
you and the America you saw yet was
never there to see; you and America, like
the
tree and the ground, are one the same; yet
how
like a palm tree in the state of Oregon...
dead
ere it blossomed, like a snow polar loping
the
Miami--
How so that which
you were and hoped to be, and the
America not, the America you saw yet could
not see
So like yet
unlike the ground from which you stemmed;
you stood upon America like a rootless
flat-bottomed tree; to the squirrel there
was no
divorcement in its hop of ground to its
climb of tree
......................
Was it not so
much our finding America as it was America
finding its voice in us; many spoke to
America
as though America by land-right was theirs
by
law-right legislatively acquired by
materialistic
coups of wealth and inheritance; like the
citizen
of society believes himself the owner of
society.
and what he makes of himself, he makes of
America and thus when he speaks of America
he speaks of himself, and quite often such
a he
is duly elected to represent what he
represents...
an infernal ego of an America
.........................
Alas Jack, seems
I cannot requiem thee without
requieming America, and that's one requiem
I shall not presume, for as long as I live
there'll
be no requiems for me
................
Yours the eyes
that saw, the heart that felt, the voice that
sang and cried; and as long as America
shall
live, though ye old Kerouac body hath died,
yet shall ye live... for indeed ours was a
time
of prophesy without death as a
consequence...
for indeed after us came the time of the
assassins,
and who'll doubt thy last words "After
me...
the
deluge"
........................................
We came to
announce the human spirit in the name of
beauty and truth; and now this spirit cries
out in
nature's sake the horrnedous imbalance of
all
things natural... elusive nature caught!
like a
bird in hand, harnessed and engineered in
the
unevolutional ways of experiment and
technique
What hope for the
America so embodied in thee, O friend,
when the very same alcohol that disembodied
your brother redman of his America,
disembodied ye-- A plot to grab their land,
we
know--yet what plot to grab the ungrabbable
land of one's spirit? ....
............
[Then on to the
end of Chapter 4 and this beautiful, tearful tribute to
John Kerouac and
indictment of our country and world that still rings so
true with
cloning, rain forest rape, genetic engineering, etc. Thanks
Gregory]
....
And you were
flashed upon the old and darkling day
a Beat Christ-boy... bearing the gentle
roundness of things
insisting that the soul was not square
And soon...behind thee
there came a-following
the children of flowers
By Gregory Corso,
North Beach, San Francisco, 1969
This yet, brings
tears to my eyes and chills to my whole body. What love
for Jack and his
work, what truth of feelings spoken. The
honesty of
Jack's faults,
that some would deny, what honesty about the treachery
that gave birth
to this country, what passion for Jack's vision. Can
there be any
doubt as to the identity of Bob Dylan's Tambourine Man, no,
it is Jack
Kerouac! But, of course it is many
others as well, but it is
Jack Kerouac,
Tambourine Man to whom we all dance. And
yes the beats
were more, but
without Jack, there were no more beats.
Hey! Mister
Tambourine Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy
and there is no place I'm going to.
Hey! Mister
Tabourine Man, play a song for me,
In the jingle
jangle morning I'll come following you.
Peace, and don't
forget to pray for Ti Jean, because we are now he.
That's my church
for the day!
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:07:53 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
Andrew:
Yes. 31 years.
Best,
Pamela Beach
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:45:45 -0400
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From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Book info.
I have a book
coming out June 4th, TWENTY DAYS ON ROUTE 20, a haibun
(condensed prose
& haiku) account of a cross-country journey taken last
fall. If anyone's
interested please E-mail me privately (don't think I
should take up
any more list space than this for the book) and I'll E-mail
flyer/details.
Thanks,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:45:28 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Ungaretti.
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>
At 14.16 25/05/97
+0200, Nils-Oivind Haagensen wrote:
>Tra un fiore
colto e l'altro donato
>l'inesprimibile
vanita
>
>Fiore doppio
>nato in
grembo alla madonna
>della gioia
>
>Between a
flower gathered and the other given/ the inexpressible vanity/ /
>Double
flower/ born of the womb of our lady/ of joy
>
>
Caro Nils-Oivind
Haagensen, GRAZIE!,
grande citazione!
UNGARETTI! il grande poeta italiano di questo
secolo, la poesia
esattamente recita:
---------------------------------------------------------------
ETERNO
Tra un fiore colto e
l'altro donato
l'inesprimibile nulla
--- Giuseppe
Ungaretti, Ultime, Milano 1914-1915---------------
grazie e cari
saluti e buona domenica da
Rinaldo Rasa.
NON GRIDATE
PIU' di Giuseppe Ungaretti, da
"I Ricordi"
Cessate
d'uccidere i morti,
Non gridate piu',
non gridate
Se li volete
ancora udire,
Se sperate di non
perire.
Hanno
l'impercettibile sussurro,
non fanno piu'
rumore
Del crescere
dell'erba,
Lieta dove passa
l'uomo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:59:33 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
In-Reply-To: <3388411A.30565089@scsn.net> from
"R. Bentz Kirby" at May 25,
97 09:39:39 am
Bentz wrote:
> Thanks and
oh yeah, probably it is a bumpy bumpy ride, because two beats
> should not
marry. They would spin off into a morass
of ADD/hyperactivity.
I've been married
seven years, and this has become a regular cycle by
now. With some smart scheduling, we can make the
hyperactivity wave
happen on
weekends and the attention-deficit part on weekdays. It
also helps me
that my wife can't stand the Beats (keeps us balanced).
That Gregory
Corso poem is the best, too ...
------------------------------------------------------
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
(the beat literature web site)
Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
(my fantasy folk-rock album)
###################################
"Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
-- Bob Dylan
-----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:32:25 -0400
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From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
Levi,
My wife couldn't
stand the beats either when we first got married. I think
it's got to do
with that "he's gonna run off and sow his wild oats leaving me
stuck at home
alone" female thing. Can't imagine
why any woman would think
that about people
like Neal Cassady?
Now she's
involved in a business where she's talking beat everyday. She
really focused in
on the women writers, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Diane
DiPrima, Carolyn
etc and it turned her around. She
especially enjoyed the
new Women &
the BG recently released.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:32:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....
>Gerry,
>
> Is there an easy way to tell whether
you actually did tape Tony
>telling that
story? ...and is it part of the
holdings of your archive at
>Lowell?
Thanks Gerry.
>
> Antoine
> Voice
contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
>
Dear
Antoine, May 25, 1997
Yes, I checked my 48 page catalogue of
what I put on deposit at U
Mass, Lowell, and
THERE WAS A TAPED INTERVIEW OF TONY CHAPUT INCLUDED IN THE
COLLECTION. I'm sure that's the story.
Now we'll need a signed letter from
Tony in California to Martha
Mayo at the
Special Collections, Mogan Center, U Mass, Lowell, 40 French
St., Lowell,
Mass, telling Ms. Mayo's it's okay for people to listen to the
tape and to read
the transcription.
That's if the Chaput tape and
transcription are not among the many
missing items
from the collection. And I'm also not
100% sure Ms. Mayo
won't come up
with yet another excuse to keep Tony's interview off limits,
but it would be
interesting if Tony sent in a permission letter to see if
people could actually
get access to it.
However, you see the difficulty of
chipping one little stone free at
a time, from a
wall (collection) that is built of thousands of stones. I
need a legal
action to free the entire collection at one time.
I was getting my master's at U of I,
Chicago, in 1972, when I was
prodded into
reading Kerouac by my officemate (we were teaching assistants
together), a hip
Jewish kid named John Simon from Harvard. Until then I'd
been forced to
read all the academic standards of modern American fiction,
Roth, Bellow,
Mailer, Updike, et al. But on my own I
had read Thoreau and
Whitman and Jack
London, so I was tremendously receptive when I read the
first 5 pages of
THE DHARMA BUMS and found all this spirituality,
compassion, and
concern for the common, workingclass people.
You see, my
father was a
socialist from Chicago, who had read most of Jack London when
young --he had
even hitchhiked to California at the age of 17 in 1927 and
had told me many
of his own "road tales" while I was growing up. My father
also used to read
to me from London's THE IRON HEEL, to teach me about the
oppression of the
poor by the rich, so when I read Kerouac I knew
immediately I had
found a brother soul. (We'd both been
raised ethnic
Catholic to boot,
me Italian Catholic, Jack of course French Catholic.)
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:43:17 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Thanks for your support
At 08:08 AM
5/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-24 20:35:06 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:
>
><< In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT,
you have received
> numerous
full-page ads from Viking/Penguin .....
> No other Kerouac publication ever got
that kind of major advertising
>>>
>
>Dear Mr.
Nicosiais:
>
>If your
publisher is interested in placing a full page ad, please have them
>contact me.
I'll see if I can ok it with the proper authorities.
>
>Best,
>Attila Gyenis
>Editor
>DHARMA beat
>
>
Dear Attila, May 25, 1997
Levi says you're my friend, but you
seem to have forgotten how to
spell my name.
Since you're my friend, I was expecting
at least the first ad for free.
Thanks.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:58:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Garb for Holy Goof
Well in 15
minutes I'm off to my 29th commencement at this institute of
higher learning
wearing my Master's Degree (in English!) garb, which looks
like the skin of
a wet bat dangling from my arms, my legs sore from yam yum
in the 4th circle
of hell, but yesterday my wife and I went to the Mall of
America Memorial
Day 50% off plus 20% sale, and--get ready for this--bought
my first pair of
grown-up pants in years (with cuffs!)--and a Gerry Garcia
tie (not on
sale)! I look great! (You're only as old as you look!) Good
enough for
litigation, if not as good as Allen Ginsberg in white shirt and
tie reading HOWL!
for the first time. May the Great
Speckled Bird be with
you all for the
weekend. // Gratefully dead, John M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:03:14 -0400
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From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....
What a
fascinating storyline here. And it's
kind of ironic too. We've
actually learned
something kind of major through calm discussion.
Phil Chuput tells
a story about his brother Tony. It's a
first person
account and we're
all touched by it to one degree or another and others say
Tony ought to
type it up and preserve it. Phil says
he's been after Tony to
do it for years
and thinks he may do it soon.
Gerry Nicosia
says he taped that same story directly from Tony's lips and in
fact the audio
tape is sitting in Lowell in a collection that no one has
access to on an
old tape that is probably rotting away.
Kind of makes you
wonder how far honest dialogue and discourse can take us.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:36:14 -0400
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....
....and me, Irish Catholic! In 1970 I
and a friend hitched back and
forth across the
United states and Canada. You can't do that without
developing a huge
store of stories, so I can only imagine the kind of
stories your Dad
had to tell. Did he ever talk about whether his Italianess
(word?) was
recognized and what kinds of reactions he got? And what kinds of
travelling times
must he have been talking about - no freeways and I guess
nothing like the
long haul trucking that you have now...although we never
had any luck in
having truckers stop to pick us up with all the regulations
they have to live
under now.
Chicago was one of the few major places
that we never ended up in -
along with Los
Angeles - and it wasn't until five or six years ago that I
got to the windy
city for far too short a visit! At least got to fulfill my
dream of visiting
the filed Museum.
Was all your father's travelling on the
road or did he ride the
rails as well?
Was he going to California to work or just to go?
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:42:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Lies, Money, and other non important
matters.
In a message
dated 97-05-24 23:54:09 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:
<< I would
have to be a fool >>
Dear Gerry,
If I thought that
I have to respond to your charges, I would.
best, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:04:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Garb for Holy Goof
In-Reply-To:
<l03020900afae3a217417@[141.224.144.84]>
may jerry send
you numerous blessings, safe as he is in heaven with AG, JK
and the rest of
the heavenly choir
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:36:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thanks for your support
In-Reply-To:
<970525080803_371706416@emout11.mail.aol.com>
>In a message
dated 97-05-24 20:35:06 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:
>
><< In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT,
you have received
> numerous
full-page ads from Viking/Penguin .....
> No other Kerouac publication ever got
that kind of major advertising
>>>
>
>Dear Mr.
Nicosiais:
>
>If your
publisher is interested in placing a full page ad, please have them
>contact me.
I'll see if I can ok it with the proper authorities.
>
>Best,
>Attila Gyenis
>Editor
>DHARMA beat
Am I missing
something? "Nicosiais" rather than Nicosia? Play on a word?
Perhaps miffed
after an enlightening rundown on your ad sales?
Would have
enjoyed a response that was a bit more substantial.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:31:43 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the tragedy of it all (to nicosia, chaput
et al.)
In-Reply-To:
<9704248645.AA864508671@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>
hello fellows,
i do believe this
may be the first direct response of mine regarding the
continuing shit
storm.
so today i set
down to scan _memory babe_ again,
looking for the voice of gerald nicosia which
has been missing in all of
the words written
in this lengthy word war..
when
i came across the
photo
of jan kerouac
taken in 1978,
her head held
proudly,
hair riffling
back in the breeze.
and i said out
loud, all to myself,
'my god, this
woman is a beauty!'
by which i meant
you could see the beauty
in her eyes, the
pain and the knowledge
gained at great
cost,
as i gazed at her
generously beautiful features
i thought, yes,
she was her father's daughter.
and i wept.
for the pain of
jack
which led, in part, to the pain
inflicted on his
daughter,
and how the
estate wars
with the shrill
fear in which
voices raised
'gainst one another here
--however amusing
or informative to some.
sorry guys,
but i mostly feel
sad over this whole emotional/legal mess...
may jan be dead
and safe in heaven
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:45:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: RE: Hello
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: chatfield@voyager.net (chatfield residence)
To: jhulvey@aol.com
Date: 97-05-25
16:14:34 EDT
julie:
thank you for
your answers to my question. i will check out the CD-ROM if i
can. it sounds
like it would be cool, even if it doesn't help me with my
research paper.
if you get a
chance, would you send a mail to the list saying how grateful
i am for
everyone's suggestions? i have to unsub because of the volume of
mail. i can only
check my mail once or twice a day, and i can't handle
having 60-70
messages to read. i just don't have the time.
i think this list
is a great idea and if i have any questions i may be
re-joining,
asking them, and then unsubbing, like the commitment ducker
that i am. :)
thanks for the
ideas!
--amy jean
"hold me
down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."
-r.e.m.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:57:12 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: hipster talk
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>
\\
.clonkk\
\
\\boff
blip\bleep
\
bop
beep\
\
clink\biff\
.
kerouac.
. described
. the velocity life of the 20th century\\\
the not music .
by john cage ../
caught the sound of the environment.
//.
clink\\
beeep
\\
bleep
bop\\
bliiip\\\\
\\
\
yrs
rinaldo
-Rust Never
Sleeps-
*
There's more the
picture
Than meets the
eye
*
(Neil Young &
Jeff Blackburn)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:30:25 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: AH I
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>
"There's just something about it
which
allows me to write a certain way, like
an actual language style
which happens to be inspired as much by
the South as it by
Shakespeare or The Bible or whatever.
But it allows me to
write in the first person, and I felt
this way. And I write
'Ah' instead of 'I'"
Nick Cave.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:29:47 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the twister haiku
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>
\\ \\
i \\\\
have\
a \
\\
life\
but \
\ i \
can't \\ use \
it\\
\\\ \\\
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:08:01 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 24 May 1997 19:55:16 -0700
from
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Gerry, how many
of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have addresses f
or? Why not write a form letter and try to get
their permission to open their
letters and tapes
now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l could
help you contact people
who are hard to find? We maight not locate everyone but we sure
could make a
dent and open up
a huge chunk of the archive. Seems to me
to be a better alter
native than
another law suit.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:24:35 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:37 -0400
from <cosmic@CLARK.NET>
On Sun, 25 May
1997 03:43:37 -0400 Cosmic Baseball Association said:
>>Well,
Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and
>>cross
bones.
>-snip-
>>me, yes,
my wife, no
>>
>>--
>>Bentz
>>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>Is it
possible to be beat and married?
>
>Regards,
>Andrew
>cosmic@clark.net
Ask Gregory Corso!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:46:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
Bill Gargan
wrote:
> Gerry, how
many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have
> addresses f
> or? Why not write a form letter and try to get
their permission to
> open their
> letters and
tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l
could help you
> contact
people
> who are hard to find? We maight not locate everyone but we sure
> could make a
> dent and
open up a huge chunk of the archive.
Seems to me to be a
> better alter
> native than
another law suit.
Bill:
Is there a valid
restriction. The little bit that I read
is that UMASS
at Lowell just
has a school policy and it is not based upon law. If
someone on the
list is aware of any actual statutes that apply, I would
be interested.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:51:22 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: the tragedy of it all (to nicosia,
chaput et al.)
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> hello
fellows,
> i do believe
this may be the first direct response of mine regarding the
> continuing
shit storm.
> so today i
set down to scan _memory babe_ again,
> looking for the voice of gerald nicosia which
has been missing in all of
> the words
written in this lengthy word war..
> when
> i came
across the photo
> of jan
kerouac
> taken in
1978,
> her head
held proudly,
> hair
riffling back in the breeze.
> and i said
out loud, all to myself,
> 'my god,
this woman is a beauty!'
> by which i
meant you could see the beauty
> in her eyes,
the pain and the knowledge
> gained at
great cost,
> as i gazed
at her generously beautiful features
> i thought,
yes, she was her father's daughter.
> and i wept.
> for the pain
of jack
> which
led, in part, to the pain
> inflicted on
his daughter,
> and how the
estate wars
> with the
shrill fear in which
> voices
raised 'gainst one another here
> --however
amusing or informative to some.
> sorry guys,
> but i mostly
feel sad over this whole emotional/legal mess...
> may jan be
dead and safe in heaven
> mc
I think you hit
the nail on the head when you speak of all of the pain
involved in this
family relationship, maybe in all family relationships.
I have read all of the posts about the estate
war since this whole thing
began on the list
several weeks ago. I think Mr. Nicosia
speaks from a
very personal
perspective of watching someone he cared greatly about die,
and then feeling
that he must continue to try and carry out her wishes.
I think what he
is trying to do for Jan is commendable.
I also think
that when you are
feeling that kind of pain on a personal level and then
you have to
battle several legal issues, emotions are bound to erupt.
But here on the
list we are only hearing the same accusations over and
over. Rarely is a new idea brought up. Today, the talk about Jack
rather than the
same old war was refreshing. Maybe
through conversations
about the words
and people, the war can slip into the background. I
think all of the
people writing about the estate problems should count
backwards from
500 to 1 before responding to each others posts. I, for
one, would like
to hear more stories about Jack (and his daughter) from
people who knew
them and were involved in their lives.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:56:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Lowell author-Jay Pendergast
May 25,1997
Lowell author and
friend of Jack Kerouac, Jay Pendergast died unexpectedly
this afternoon.
Jay had just written a story about Jack in Paul Maher's
premiere issue of
the "Kerouac Quarterly" his painting that Jack had given
him personally
what I called "Beatnik Jesus" was on the cover. He was an
educator that
taught English, Irish and American Literature as well as
History, Writing
and Anthropology courses. Jay held his Ph.D. in Irish
Literature and
held his Masters degree in English Literature. He was an
author who had
written two books about early Lowell "The Bend in the River"
and "Life
along the Merrimack" he had also completed a book of photos of
Lowell and one of
Dracut and was working on a second book of Lowell photos.
His first Lowell
photo book had a wonderful picture of Jack Kerouac at an
early age
performing in a play. Jay was also an archeologist and had
completed several
archaeological excavations in Newfoundland, Ireland and
along the banks
of the Merrimack River. Jay was a very close friend of mine
who loved Jack
Kerouac and Lowell. This passage appeared in his first book.
If at night a man
goes out to the woods surrounding Galloway, and stands on
a hill, he can
see it all there before him in broad panorama: the river
coursing slowly
in an arc, the mills with their long rows of windows all
aglow, the
factory stacks rising higher than the church steeples. But he
knows that this
is not the true Galloway. Something in the invisible
brooding
landscape surrounding the town, something in the bright stars
nodding close to
a hillside where the old cemetery sleeps, something in the
soft swishing
treeleaves over the fields and stone walls tells him a
different story.
Jack Kerouac- The
Town and the City
Here's one for
you Jay, I'm going to miss you.
Ever see a tired
ba by
Cryin to sleep
in its mother's arms
Wailin all night
long
while the locamotive
Wails on back
A cry for a cry
In the smoke and
the lamp
Of the hard ass
night
That's how I
fee-
eel---
That's how
I fee---eel!
That's how
I feel---
What a deal!
Yes I'm goin ho
o
ome
Jack Kerouac-
Book of Blues-38th Chorus
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:08:02 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
In-Reply-To: <970525133225_453294080@emout12.mail.aol.com>
from "Jerry Cimino"
at May 25, 97 01:32:25 pm
Jerry Cimino
wrote:
> My wife
couldn't stand the beats either when we first got married. I think
> it's got to
do with that "he's gonna run off and sow his wild oats leaving me
> stuck at
home alone" female thing. Can't
imagine why any woman would think
> that about
people like Neal Cassady?
>
> Now she's
involved in a business where she's talking beat everyday. She
> really
focused in on the women writers, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Diane
> DiPrima,
Carolyn etc and it turned her around.
She especially enjoyed the
> new Women
& the BG recently released.
Mine is coming
around bit by bit too. She really likes
listening
to "Kicks
Joy Darkness" (that new Rykodisk CD) for instance, whereas
I was
lukewarm. But that's just because Patti
Smith is on it, I
think ...
------------------------------------------------------
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
(the beat literature web site)
Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
(my fantasy folk-rock album)
###################################
"Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
-- Bob Dylan
-----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:33:36 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
At 06:08 PM
5/25/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Gerry, how
many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have addresses f
>or? Why not write a form letter and try to get
their permission to open their
>letters and
tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l
could help you contact people
> who are hard
to find? We maight not locate everyone
but we sure could make a
>dent and open
up a huge chunk of the archive. Seems to
me to be a better alter
>native than
another law suit.
>
>
Bill, May 25, 1997
What you suggest is a lot easier said
than done. A large no. of the
people (after 20
years) are no longer where they were when I interviewed
them. Of the 100 who are dead, I know the
whereabouts of the heirs of only
a handful.
Even with those that remain, if I get a
letter to them, I can
guarantee you that
50% would not answer. This is just
standard with any
mailing. A lot of people won't sign their name to
anything, even if they
gave me an
interview with full cooperation 20 years ago.
What you must understand is that at any
other library, these tapes
would be
listenable to, as they are right now.
There is also the matter that Lowell is
refusing to duplicate the
tapes, to put
them on fresh tape stock, and of course they won't digitalize
them. So the tapes, if kept at Lowell, will be
deteriorated too badly to
even listen to in
another five to fifteen years (some tapes will last
longer, some are
almost gone already).
Then there is the matter of the 2,000
xeroxed Kerouac letters, which
also would be
fully available at any other library.
Bancroft, Texas, etc.,
show Kerouac's
letters every day to scholars without Sampas's permission,
despite his
attempts at interference.
And U Mass, Lowell, itself, made the
MEMORY BABE archive fully
available to
scholars till 1995, when Mr. Sampas brought his complaint to them.
There is the further concern of
materials disappearing every year
from the MEMORY
BABE archive.
In light of all that, I don't see that
I have any choice but a lawsuit.
If you have further thoughts, let me
know.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:35:47 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970524203852.6190A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu> from
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" at May 24, 97 08:58:31 pm
Steve Smith
wrote:
> levi and
friends: "start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the
> rap weasels
the world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing
> that's said
when people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away
> from passion
and the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that i
Hah, as if it
were that easy to be away from passion and the real
world. Show me the way to free myself of passion and
the real world ...
That's why I do
yoga -- if only I could succeed ...
> zero in on
nicosia as the "bad" guy. levi, you say some very wise things
> a lot of the
time--and you have a boffo web site--but quit the whining
> about
nicosia. if you hate the back and forth
poison re: the estate
Thanks for the
compliments, and okay, whatever.
> battle, why
not get on anstee and chaput, too??? the couple of times i've
> read posts
reZ: the estate thing, you've been on nicosia's case. perhaps
> i am being a
bit simplistic here, but ....
Nicosia has an
awesome reputation as a world-class scholar to uphold.
Obviously, I hold
him to higher standards. That's the way
*I* show
my respect. If I'm being too harsh, well, he said he was
here to
answer questions,
so I asked some!
> anything he
wants. if we can think lisa rabey's rap on cocksucking is
> okay for the
list, why whip out the cattleprods when nicosia et al go
> back and
forth on the estate thing?
Cause it was
funny! Hey, if some of you were really
enjoying this
battle, sorry for
the interruption. I didn't realize it
was
such a thrilling
match. I remember an old line in a
National
Lampoon article
in the 70's, after David Bowie and Lou Reed were
photographed
fist-fighting in a nightclub -- the writer of this
article claimed
that he was there, and said that despite reports
of the fight
being like Ali-vs.-Frazier, it was more like
watching
"two old ladies patting out fires on each other's
bellies". For whatever that image is worth ...
I'm outta here
for the night ... happy Memorial Day
everybody.
------------------------------------------------------
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
(the beat literature web site)
Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
(my fantasy folk-rock album)
###################################
"Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
-- Bob Dylan
-----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:50:27 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Who was that guy?
In-Reply-To: <3385FBFD.B6F115E4@scsn.net> from
"R. Bentz Kirby" at May 23,
97 04:20:13 pm
Bentz wrote (a
few days ago):
> Who was the
guy who did a comic strip/book, Never Eat Anything Bigger
> Than Your
Head?
B. Kliban. Famous for drawing cartoons of cats. Died a few years
ago. Not sure if Beat or not, probably so.
------------------------------------------------------
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
(the beat literature web site)
Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
(my fantasy folk-rock album)
###################################
"Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
-- Bob Dylan
-----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:51:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
Gerry:
If the letters
etc of Jack's were mailed, wouldn't the person who
received the
letters have control of them. Even
though I am a lawyer, I
am a little
confused by all of this and would like to get it straight.
If the letters
were mailed, and then given to you and then to the
library, it seems
to me that Sampas would have nothing to say about any
of this at
all. And, does anyone out there know if
and how letters are
covered by
copyright. What gets them out of the
control of someone and
into the right of
fair use.
Just curious.
Peace,
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
> At 06:08 PM
5/25/97 EDT, you wrote:
> >Gerry,
how many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have
> addresses f
> >or? Why not write a form letter and try to get
their permission to
> open their
> >letters
and tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l
could help you
> contact
people
> > who are
hard to find? We maight not locate
everyone but we sure
> could make a
> >dent and
open up a huge chunk of the archive.
Seems to me to be a
> better alter
> >native
than another law suit.
> >
> >
> Bill, May 25, 1997
>
> What you suggest is a lot easier said
than done. A large no.
> of the
> people
(after 20 years) are no longer where they were when I
> interviewed
> them. Of the 100 who are dead, I know the
whereabouts of the heirs of
> only
> a handful.
> Even with those that remain, if I get
a letter to them, I can
> guarantee
you that 50% would not answer. This is
just standard with
> any
>
mailing. A lot of people won't sign
their name to anything, even if
> they
> gave me an
interview with full cooperation 20 years ago.
> What you must understand is that at
any other library, these
> tapes
> would be
listenable to, as they are right now.
> There is also the matter that Lowell
is refusing to duplicate
> the
> tapes, to
put them on fresh tape stock, and of course they won't
> digitalize
> them. So the tapes, if kept at Lowell, will be
deteriorated too badly
> to
> even listen
to in another five to fifteen years (some tapes will last
> longer, some
are almost gone already).
> Then there is the matter of the 2,000
xeroxed Kerouac letters,
> which
> also would
be fully available at any other library.
Bancroft, Texas,
> etc.,
> show
Kerouac's letters every day to scholars without Sampas's
> permission,
> despite his
attempts at interference.
> And U Mass, Lowell, itself, made the
MEMORY BABE archive fully
>
> available to
scholars till 1995, when Mr. Sampas brought his complaint
> to them.
> There is the further concern of
materials disappearing every
> year
> from the
MEMORY BABE archive.
> In light of all that, I don't see that
I have any choice but a
> lawsuit.
> If you have further thoughts, let me
know.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:06:39 -0700
Reply-To: david@cyberwarecom.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David McClusky
<david@CYBERWARECOM.COM>
Organization:
CyberWare Communications (http://www.cyberwarecom.com)
Subject: Beat Generation
Hello everyone!
I am new to this
group (and the Beat Generation) and I hope to get a
little more educated
on the subject.
Right now, I am
working on a school essay on the Beat Generation and the
counter-culture
movement of the '50s. Specifically, I am
exploring the
following
questions-- What were the specific causes of this movement?
How can "On
the Road" be seen as a critique of 1950s American society?
Does this
critique have any validity?
To anyone that
can help with these questions-- thanks alot!
David McClusky
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:14:31 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Jay Pendergast
Jay was a
historian in every way. Jay was a reader of Joyce. Jay was a
drinking buddy of
Jack's. Jay supported and enthused my idea of a "Kerouac
Quarterly."
I remember sitting with Jay sipping a beautiful blend of whiskey
as we discussed
literature and art as the fires burned in his warm, cozy
house and the
Merrimac River seeping in December in his backyard bobbing
with mallards.
Jay told me that Kerouac had him play "Moon River about
thirty
times" at Nicky's on the jukebox. Jay was the embodiment of what I
emulate to be...a
reader, learner, writer, educator, and sincere friend. I
will miss him
tremendously. On Friday...May 23rd he was happy that my first
issue of the
Kerouac Quarterly was successful and that he wanted to
contribute more.
He has contributed in more ways than one. His spirit, his
vigor, his
sincere interest in what I was doing saw me through the
completion of my
first publication.....your friend and fellow Lowellian,
Paul....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:13:29 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's
May 25, 1997
Antoine Maloney
writes:
"I can only imagine the kind of
stories your Dad had to tell. Did
he ever talk
about whether his Italianess (word?) was recognized and what
kinds of
reactions he got? ...Was all your father's traveling on the road or
did he ride the
rails as well? Was he going to
California to work or just
to go?"
Dear Antoine:
My father left Chicago at age 17
because he wanted to be like Jack
London. He mostly hitchhiked, rode the rails only a
little, mostly because
he didn't like
the danger of it (Kerouac was afraid of train wheels too,
you'll recall),
and later took a tramp steamer from San Francisco to Los
Angeles--after
cutting up to Spokane, Washington, to pick apples, where he
hung out with Sad
Slim Smith who owned Sad Slim Smith's Super Service
Station, Spokane
(true story).
Ironically, he made this trip with his
fast-talking, womanizing
buddy (sound
familiar?), another Italian from Chicago named Steve Ferrara.
Eventually the magnet of home pulled
him back to Illinois, and he
returned to his
widowed mother (sound even more familiar?).
As for his being and speaking Italian,
it served him well in North
Beach, San
Francisco, which in 1927 was just an Italian fishermen's village
at the northern
tip of San Francisco. It gives me great
satisfaction to
think of my dad,
a young man of 17, walking Grant Avenue in North Beach 20
years before
Kerouac got there. Of course in those
days there were no Beat
coffeehouses, no
"finger-poppin' daddies" (a la Lord Buckley), just real
Italian bars and
cafes and spaghetti houses.
He left me a couple of photo albums filled
with snapshots from those
days in San
Francisco, North Beach, the Barbary coast, and the sand dunes of
the Sunset
District, where he and his friend boarded in the house of a widow
named Mrs.
Miller.
My favorite story of his from those times was
how, when he first got
to San Francisco,
he was almost broke and desperately needed work. He
applied for a
busboy job at the States Cafe, a very popular restaurant
downtown. It had 48 booths, each one named for a state
of the union. He
had pulled his
old trick from Chicago, of tearing up the "Help Wanted" sign
before going
inside, but they told him that he could only work there if he
owned an
all-white busboy's uniform. Knowing he
couldn't afford to buy one,
he was about to
leave down-hearted, when a little Chinese guy, about my
dad's height and
weight, walked up and made him an offer.
The Chinese guy said he an extra
busboy's uniform. It was dirty
now, but if my
dad would have it cleaned and starched, he could wear it till
he earned enough
money to buy his own.
And that was how my dad got his first
job in San Francisco. They
paid him thirty
silver dollars a month, and at the end of the month he
bought his own
uniform and returned the Chinese guy's uniform cleaned and
starched. And they remained good friends for the rest
of his stay in San
Francisco.
All of which has touched me in a
special way, since in 1995, long
after my dad's
death, I went to An Hui Province in China to adopt an orphan
girl named Wu
Ji. Considering the strange karmic
connections in this world,
I sometimes
wonder if maybe Wu Ji is a distant relative of that Chinese
busboy who helped
my dad.
By the way, you always end with a quote
from Utah Phillips. He's a
buddy of mine (he
performed at the big benefit concert for Jan Kerouac in
1995), and we
both had the same mentor: a one-armed Spanish Civil War
veteran from
Chicago named Eddy Balchowsky, who played the meanest one-armed
piano you've ever
heard. Utah wrote a great song about
him, after hearing
Eddy play
Beethoven's MOONLIGHT SONATA one-handed.
The song starts: "One
Hand on the
Keyboard, and Moonlight Fills the Room...."
All for now. Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:19:56 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: a calm request
..., it has
nothing to do with
>his
archieves, its a damn pissing contest/whose got the bigger balls and
>the rest of
the nonsense. Its pure bullshit. Get off your ego trip and
>realize THAT truth.
>
>
>Lisa M. Rabey
>Internet and
Computer Consultant
>San
Francisco, California
>http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
>**************************************
>General
man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.
>
Dear Lisa, May 25, 1997
I am here on the Beat-List only because
of the need to preserve Jack
Kerouac's
archives. It has turned into a pissing
contest because that is
what Mr. Chaput
and Mr. Anstee wanted it to become. They
have effectively
killed the
discussion of what Sampas is doing with the archives and why, if
he really intends
to put them into a library, he has not signed even a
statement of
intention in 6 years. They don't want me
talking about things
like that, so
they call me names and accuse me of various crimes, and then I
answer them back,
etc. etc.
Well here's my deal, Lisa, I'll just
quite answering their bullshit
charges, and just
keep posting the truth as I see it.
Maybe some day
someone from
"the other side" will appear to argue this thing out
rationally, and
give us some hard facts about what Mr. Sampas is doing and
plans to
do--rather than just calling me names and saying what a bad person
I am.
By the way, Paul Maher's list from the
NY Public Library shows that
they do not own
all the versions of even one Kerouac book (published or
unpublished). A scholar who analyzes a work needs
everything from the first
notes thru first
second and third drafts, and then the galleys.
Kerouac
typed several
versions of every published book. The NY
Public has acquired
only early
notebook drafts of some individual books, and they have not even
one complete
version of Kerouac's seven most important books: ON THE ROAD,
THE DHARMA BUMS,
DR. SAX, VISIONS OF GERARD, VISIONS OF CODY, VANITY OF
DULUOZ, and
DESOLATION ANGELS.
This is what we should be talking
about.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:24:56 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: a calm request
Dear Lisa, May 25, 1997
Excuse me, make that EIGHT of KEROUAC'S
MOST IMPORTANT BOOKS that
the New York
Public Library has NOT EVEN ONE COMPLETE DRAFT OF:
I forgot to add: they don't have a
scrap of THE SUBTERRANEANS either.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:50:03 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: meesters chaput & nicosia
In-Reply-To:
<199705260413.VAA25745@norway.it.earthlink.net>
really
appreciated yr memories shared. .
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:02:46 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Frank O'Hara, a poetry.
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>
"Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara
I am not a painter, I am a poet.
Why? I think I would rather be
a painter, but I am not. Well,
for instance, Mike Goldberg
is starting a painting. i drop
in
"Sit down and have a ddrink"
he
says. I drink; we drink. I look
up. "You have SARDINES in it"
"Yes, it needed sometime
there"
"Oh." I go and days go by
and I drop in again. The painting
is going on, and I go, and the
days
go by, I drop in. The painting is
finished. "Where's SARDINES?"
All that's left is just
letters, "It was too much",
Mike says.
But me? One day I am thinking of
a color: orange. I write a line
about orange. Pretty soon it is a
whole page of words, not lines.
Then another page. There should
be
so much more, not of orange, of
words, of how terrible orange is
and life. Days go by. It is even
in
prose, I am a real poet. My poem
is finished and I haven't
mentioned
orange yet. It's twelve poems, I
call
it ORANGES. And one day in a
gallery
I see Mike's painting, called
SARDINES.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:33:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
Levi Asher wrote:
>
> Jerry Cimino
wrote:
> > My wife
couldn't stand the beats either when we first got married. I think
> > it's
got to do with that "he's gonna run off and sow his wild oats leaving
me
> > stuck
at home alone" female thing. Can't
imagine why any woman would think
> > that
about people like Neal Cassady?
> >
> > Now
she's involved in a business where she's talking beat everyday. She
> > really
focused in on the women writers, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Diane
> >
DiPrima, Carolyn etc and it turned her around.
She especially enjoyed the
> > new
Women & the BG recently released.
>
> Mine is
coming around bit by bit too. She really
likes listening
> to
"Kicks Joy Darkness" (that new Rykodisk CD) for instance, whereas
> I was
lukewarm. But that's just because Patti
Smith is on it, I
> think ...
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>
> Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
> (the beat literature web site)
>
> Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
> (my fantasy folk-rock album)
>
> ###################################
>
> "Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
> -- Bob Dylan
>
-----------------------------------------------------
Is Star Treak
Beat?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:37:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape
Levi Asher wrote:
>
> Steve Smith
wrote:
> > levi
and friends: "start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the
> > rap
weasels the world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing
> > that's
said when people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away
> > from
passion and the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that
i
>
> Hah, as if
it were that easy to be away from passion and the real
> world. Show me the way to free myself of passion and
the real world ...
> That's why I
do yoga -- if only I could succeed ...
>
Moving to Kansas
is a decent attempt too!
Hope everyone
Remembers the right things on Memorial Day.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:49:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: BeatRyder@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Lowell author-Jay Pendergast
In a message
dated 97-05-26 00:01:30 EDT, you write:
> May 25,1997
> Lowell author and friend of Jack Kerouac, Jay
Pendergast died unexpectedly
> this afternoon. Jay had just written a story
about Jack in Paul Maher's
> premiere issue of the "Kerouac
Quarterly" his painting that Jack had given
> him personally what I called "Beatnik
Jesus" was on the cover. He was an
> educator that taught English, Irish and
American Literature as well as
> History, Writing and Anthropology courses.
This is truly sad
news, I took Jay's Speech Course last summer, and it had to
be one
of my best
classes of all time. We would listen Jay
for whole class
sessions, telling
us about his time
in Ireland, doing archaeological digs in the Merrimack
area, the
many famous
people he has encountered in his amazing life - I remember
wanting to
rush out into my
backyard and dig for bones! He was one
of the most
fascinating
people i've ever
met. Probably the greatest
storyteller. I'll always
remember, as long
as I live, how he
encouraged me to write - enthusiastically explaining how
great it is,
just to write a
book and have it published, and see people paying money to
read your
words - getting
those small checks from the publisher, etc.
In fact, I
bought Jay's
book, "The
Bend in the River" as a gift for my dad for father's day. Jay
was truly an
amazing man, and I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to
know him.
Jeff
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:51:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Jerry Cimino's posts
Dear Beat List:
I just signed on
to this list a few days ago, but it seems like a year
ago. The range of emotions has soared and dipped
me like I am the
finest of fighter
jet plane on an evasive maneuver in the mountains. I
have pulled from
my shelf books that have lain dormant for years and
found within them
joy and tears that I thought had long since left me.
To find that I am
still in touch with them cuts both ways like a knife.
I hope that
Ferlinghetti will be in the store to have coffee with me and
I will bask in
the glow of a fire lit in me by Homer and fed by the
Legends of King
Authur, the story of Ivanhoe (sp), Jason and the search
for the Fleece,
the story of Jesus, Catch 22, Ferlinghetti, Corso,
Thomas Wolfe,
Jack Kerouac, Gerry Nicosia, Allen Ginsburg, Bob Dylan,
Thoreau, Van
Morrison, etc. etc. etc. While I
admired Ann's biography
of Kerouac and
read it first, I wonder how any person can say that
Nicosia has
written the best, or at least one of the two best
biographies of
Kerouac.
I would say that
it is the best, but will admit that others might prefer
Charter's because
it is more flattering, but to me Memory Babe has the
most facts and
the most Love in it. Regardless, I am
honored to be a
member of a list
with Gerry Nicosia. I have also seen
messages going
back and forth
between Levi Asher and Gerry. I have
looked at Levi's
site and find it
to be a great web site. One of the
best. But, Levi
has yet to answer
Gerry's direct questions. Why is that?
I have just read
the first in a series of posts by Jerry Cimino about
the list and
Gerry. I tend to agree. When I first signed on I asked
several questions
that have gone unanswered. One of those
troubles me
greatly.
1. In an email response to Gerry, someone
asked an open question that
to me said in
paraphrased terms:
What about Gerry
Nicosia, isn't he a thief because he has sold
photocopies of
Kerouac's letters for profit?
I responded to
the list and to the poster, whose id I have forgotten,
what letters,
where, to whom and how much. I have not
heard, nor has
this list heard
yet what letters to whom and how much.
If one is not
willing to stand behind such an accusation, or if one
lacks the facts
to back it up, one should not accuse another, especially
a writer of the
integrity of Nicosia of this behavior.
2. There also was a statement by someone to
this lists claiming that
Sampas has not
sold off piece meal portions of Kerouac's works and
artifacts. Does anyone actually know what Sampas has
done. I asked the
question and all
I received was a chastisement that I should "do my
homework" or
some such and stating that I needed to spell Sampas' name
right. But have I received an answer to the
question. Who knows what
Sampas has done
and what he has sold? No, I have not
seen any such
information
forthcoming.
In short, why
does Gerry Nicosia post facts and the others respond with
accusations and
no facts. I am down with Cimino's
post. I am off to
take my children
to school, and will respond further in a few minutes
with other points
about what I have seen.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:47:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Kerouac's baseball league
Just a thought,
but on reading Levi Asher's page on Jack, was he the
sole member of
the first fantasy baseball league?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:53:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Star Trek is not beat
David,
Star Trek is not
beat. It is an extension of
society. It is more of a
world vision in
which Orwell and others are wrong and big brother turns
out to be nice guy after all.
Star Wars comes
closer to beat, but at best it was maybe Hip or even
Hep.
To me, Space
Balls (Mel Brooks?) was beat! Or, that
Outer Limitsor
Twilight Zone
where the people got on the space ship and the man then
figures out that
the book th aliens brought is a Cook Book.
That is
hip. And maybe just maybe Beat and space would be
say, The Day the
Earth Stood
Still.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:55:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: correction
I said in my
addled brain, but not in the message and hereby correct it
to state:
I wonder how any
person can say that Nicosia has NOT written the best,
or at least one
of the two best biographies of Kerouac.
The omission of
three letters can affect the meaning.
I believe Gerry's
is the best, because it is full of love and
tenderness, but
does not avoid any difficult issues.
Others will see
Ann's as the best
I am sure. But, anyone else is merely a
pretender and
does not approach
those two.
So, does Ms
Charters post here? If not, does anyone
know her? Invite
her to join the
list. I get jazzed thinking about
Charters and Nicosia
debating the
beats and Kerouac. But, remember Nicosia
had the courage
to come here and
is a blessing to us out of a Gone World.
I remember years
ago a law professor speaking somewhat contemptuously of
his colleagues
who did not publish. I thought he was
just jealous
because they had
tenure and did not publish much (he had tenure too, but
worked much
harder than they did). I asked him why
and he said that if
you are not
willing to put your ideas into the public arena and have
them ripped to
shreds by your colleagues, then you are intelletually
dishonest and are
a coward as that is the way you learn.
Now, I am not
saying that Ann Charters or John Sampas has to post their
ideas here. What I am saying is that, regardless of the
rest of it all,
Nicosia is a man
of courage and conviction. He may be
looney as a nut
cake, fruit cake
or whatever that device is, but he puts his ideas forth
and allows you do
dissect him. And from my experience on
the net and
newsgroups, you
will be dissected by idiots and genius.
He has cast
pearls, it is up
to the list to ensure that he did not cast them before
swine.
He is
courageous. I have discouraged him
because:
1. He can't argue with people who do not state
facts.
2. If he has been slandered, then it is best
to leave it to the
lawyers. (Hey, I got a plug for me in here too!!! ;-))
3. It must be very distracting to him to have
to deal with bs, and he
needs to be about
his life's work.
4. I would rather not see him expose his soul
on public, as I don't
know who this
public is.
But, even though
his obvious anger makes me feel that he is wasting his
effort on those
who do not deserve it, I admire his candor and
willingness. Are those who speak less than well up to the
task to be so
honest and to
expose themselves to the same criticism, are they willing
to be dissected
in such detail? Where are their facts?
I for one count
us to be very rich for Gerry's presence here, would
welcome Ann
aboard if she would join and say, if you are unwilling to
back up an attack
on Gerry or a defense of Sampas without facts, then
keep it to
yourself because Nicosia has stated facts.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:26:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jerry Cimino's posts
RBK,
We're not always
the best hosts when it comes to newcomers.
This thread
is not the only
example of when that has happened. The
emotional level
though may
explain why our hosting is particularly poor.
There is a range
of emotions involved in this thread - not only those
concerning a
hotly contested legal argument being discussed in a
non-legal
environment - but also the emotions of grief involved in close
friendships on
both sides of what has politely been referred to as a
"feud"
and at times compared to a "war".
>
> I just signed
on to this list a few days ago, but it seems like a year
> ago. The range of emotions has soared and dipped
me like I am the
> finest of
fighter jet plane on an evasive maneuver in the mountains. I
> have pulled
from my shelf books that have lain dormant for years and
> found within
them joy and tears that I thought had long since left me.
> To find that
I am still in touch with them cuts both ways like a knife.
> I hope that
Ferlinghetti will be in the store to have coffee with me and
> I will bask
in the glow of a fire lit in me by Homer and fed by the
> Legends of
King Authur, the story of Ivanhoe (sp), Jason and the search
> for the
Fleece, the story of Jesus, Catch 22, Ferlinghetti, Corso,
> Thomas
Wolfe, Jack Kerouac, Gerry Nicosia, Allen Ginsburg, Bob Dylan,
> Thoreau, Van
Morrison, etc. etc. etc.
It seems to me
that these remembrances are wonderful feelings and
connections and
fairly appropriate to a Memorial Day Celebration of
Beat-ism. I find myself as a fairly newcomer to both
the scene, the
list, and the
literature - manically trying to read more and more and
more to get a
better sense of the IT that runs through all of these
words. But it is a smooth mania for me and one that
I can enjoy quite
well.
While I admired
Ann's biography
> of Kerouac
and read it first, I wonder how any person can say that
> Nicosia has
written the best, or at least one of the two best
> biographies
of Kerouac.
I think they are
both wonderful. I'm reading them both
right now along
with Dharma Lion
about Ginsberg. Charters' is a much more
empathetic
style and
Nicosia's a more detached one. The two
in combination is
something of a
symphony for me. I don't know why all
the ratings need
be done at
all. The books say the same thing almost
only they say
completely
different things at the same time. They
are both wonderful
tributes to
Kerouac. As was McNally's which was a
different style
altogether almost
intimate anthropological in nature. I'm
looking
forward to others
that have been mentioned as well.
>
> I would say
that it is the best, but will admit that others might prefer
> Charter's
because it is more flattering, but to me Memory Babe has the
> most facts
and the most Love in it. Regardless, I
am honored to be a
> member of a
list with Gerry Nicosia.
He is a wonderful
resource. When he has time to discuss
matters
off-estate, i
find his insights beautiful to read. I
can't wait for the
Vietnam Vets
book. I'm certain that he will tell that
story and its
many plots with
incredible technique.
All that said, i
have to admit that I'm somewhat tired of the estate
discussion. It seems an important thread but not
incredibly significant
to me. None of the libraries under consideration are
ones I will ever
be near - i
doubt. I doubt that I will ever return
to the "scholarly
arena". I respect the desire of scholars to desire an
archive like the
one suggested for
the NYPL, but it doesn't seem to be the only audience
for Kerowhackos
around this beautiful land.
I have also seen
messages going
> back and
forth between Levi Asher and Gerry. I
have looked at Levi's
> site and
find it to be a great web site. One of
the best. But, Levi
> has yet to
answer Gerry's direct questions. Why is
that?
Have to ask
Levi. I thought that some of the
questions were answered
but the answers
were unacceptable to Gerry and so it went ....
>
> I have just
read the first in a series of posts by Jerry Cimino about
> the list and
Gerry. I tend to agree. When I first signed on I asked
> several
questions that have gone unanswered. One
of those troubles me
> greatly.
>
> 1. In an email response to Gerry, someone
asked an open question that
> to me said
in paraphrased terms:
>
> What about
Gerry Nicosia, isn't he a thief because he has sold
> photocopies
of Kerouac's letters for profit?
as i recall, the
photocopy letter originally was a bad joke in the
middle of a
post. that's how i read it at
least. it has since blew up.
>
> I responded
to the list and to the poster, whose id I have forgotten,
> what
letters, where, to whom and how much. I
have not heard, nor has
> this list
heard yet what letters to whom and how much.
it would be
letters in the Lowell archive as far as I can tell. letters
associated with
the Memory Babe biography. i think that
the price
sounded
reasonable considering Gerry's expenses in working on the book.
>
> If one is
not willing to stand behind such an accusation, or if one
> lacks the
facts to back it up, one should not accuse another, especially
> a writer of
the integrity of Nicosia of this behavior.
i think it was a
poor joke that wouldn't die. but that's
my failing
memory.
>
> 2. There also was a statement by someone to
this lists claiming that
> Sampas has
not sold off piece meal portions of Kerouac's works and
>
artifacts. Does anyone actually know
what Sampas has done. I asked the
> question and
all I received was a chastisement that I should "do my
>
homework" or some such and stating that I needed to spell Sampas' name
> right. But have I received an answer to the
question. Who knows what
> Sampas has
done and what he has sold? No, I have
not seen any such
> information
forthcoming.
I've learned to
have some difficulty with this part of the whole feud.
It seems that
until the courts determine otherwise - which is uncertain
at best - that
this stuff is Sampas' private property.
I don't think
he's accountable
to any of us concerning what he does with his
property. He could have a huge garage sale - like the
Kennedy children
- but it doesn't
sound as though that has happened.
>
> In short,
why does Gerry Nicosia post facts and the others respond with
> accusations
and no facts. I am down with Cimino's
post. I am off to
> take my
children to school, and will respond further in a few minutes
> with other
points about what I have seen.
My impression is
that Gerry while an excellent scholar and writer is not
willing to see
any grain of truth in anything in this besides his
viewpoint. That is merely an impression. My impression is that people
don't post
anything worthwhile because, it won't be good enough for
Gerry if they
do. And when they do, there is often at
least innuendo
that John Sampas
is pulling their strings like puppets.
The dialogue in
this thread has broken down from both sides and every
angle
in-between. My impression is it is a
case of emotionally charged
true believers
involved in a fairly messy and intricate legal action and
that the
animosity will probably not end after the legal action or
actions are
decided. It will be one for the literary
historians to
write about some
day down the road.
I hope that i've
filled in some of the details. I am very
hesitant to
do so for fear of
being attacked for having provided misinformation.
These are what
I've gathered from the thread, my impressions of the
thread,
information as I recall it now, and i don't know that they
necessarily have
any correspondence with the truth (whatever that is)...
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:31:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: correction
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> I said in my
addled brain, but not in the message and hereby correct it
> to state:
>
> I wonder how
any person can say that Nicosia has NOT written the best,
> or at least
one of the two best biographies of Kerouac.
>
> The omission
of three letters can affect the meaning.
>
As one of the
most addled brains on the planet it was easy to read past
the addled-typo
and understand the context. i really
don't think anyone
suggests Nicosia
is not an incredible scholar. When I
read his
biography I say
"Wow - how'd he find that out - in my head a lot". In
the others, I say
different words inside my head. The
symphony of
reading multiple
biographies comes out with this chorus in my head.
Wow-Jack/Wow-Jack/beeeeeeeatttttttitiffffffic
terrific WOW - Jack
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:33:56 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Gerry's Dad's story
Gerry,
Thank you for the vivid post describing
your dad's time in San
Francisco. It
sounds like you did what too many of us neglect to do; really
quiz your Dad
about his youth. Free advice to everyone on the list....ask
your mom and Dad
and aunts and uncles and grandparents what their childhood,
adolescence, and
coming of age was like; endlessly rewardimg as we can see!
Was the aside about Lord Buckley a tip
of the hat to my frequently
broadcast
interest in the Lord, or did it just trip off your tongue? Any
evidence of
Buckley intersecting with Kerouac or the others? Charles
Plymell mentioned
remembering Buckley from Los Angeles
...days of the
old Crackerbox
Palace. He was truly a hipster! I've read Kerouac's
description of
seeing slim Gaillard, but have always been curious about any
awareness of Lord
Buckley (especially given the close association with
Charlie Parker)
and Harry 'the Hipster' Gibson ("Who Put the Benzedrine in
Mrs' Murpht's
Ovaltine").
Thanks again. Any idea who Navrotsky is
or if I've spelt his name
correctly? The
quotation as i heard it was attributed to them jointly. It's
a good one. Do
you know Jo Grant? Is he / was he a labor organizer?
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:37:46 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
Gerry, I think
you are on more solid ground with this issue than the other.
There are huge
chunks of your archive that are irreplaceable -- especially
the tape
recordings, which must be preserved at all costs, even if the actual
access/rights
issue isn't sorted out for years to come. Preserve the tapes at
least!
(ASIDE: I can, for example, see that someone
who had granted you an
interview back in
the mid-1970's, might now be a bit surprised/troubled to
discover that the
entire interview was potentially now available in complete
form, either
audio or transcript, to the public -- that is, I can realize
that one of your
interviewees might not have forseen such an eventuality when
they originally
granted the interview as part of helping you with your book.
I say, I can sort
of SEE someone feeling that way, though I imagine most of
the interviewees
don't care either way, and if asked would readily grant
permission. I am
thinking of someone like Helen Weaver, for example, who
might very well
be writing her own memoirs of her time with JK, and therefore
not feel
comfortable -- I pick Helen W. just as an hypothetical example
though, you
understand.)
The original
letters, too, even in 1987 deserved extra special treatment, and
it's appalling to
think that they have somehow been allowed to disappear into
the void. (See,
we can/do agree on some things!)
The xeroxed
letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --
entirely aside
from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in
retrospect, that
Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first place,
knowing that many
of them (originals) are the property of other libraries.
Just as an
example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April, 1952
letter from JK to
AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's covered
with margin notes
in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as
pointers to the
eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge are
the following
words:
" THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF ORIGINAL
MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA
UNIVERSITY
LIBRARIES.
This copy must be returned to Special
Collections (801 Butler
Library) at the
completion of the reader's use."
Whilst it's
arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed your use
of this material,
I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was actually
put there to
preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at some
later date, to
another institution --no? It renders your sale of such
material to the
library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy. I even wonder if
this wasn't one
of the reasons that most other insitutions you apporached
were not
interested? (I assume your archive included this material -- on p.
35 of the list
you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters of JK to
Allen
Ginsberg"-- and I assume that comparable letters, from other libraries
came with similar
restrictions.)
I guess I'm just
suggesting that, in some respects at least, some of the
content of your
MB archive is rather problematical, legally speaking. Of
course this in no
way excuses any mishandling of the remainder of the
archive, or any
(alleged) Sampas interference in the running of the archive
viv-a-vis
scholarly access.
Just a thought.
CHEERS Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:35:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: David's post
David:
Thanks for the
post. I have reviewed most of the posts
that I can find
on these issues
and welcome receiving copies of older posts back channel
if anyone saved
them.
On the issue of
selling letters:
>From what you
said, it was a "joke" that got turned around and out of
proportion. I can see that happening and do not take
issue with that.
But again, did
Gerry sell photocopies to Umass at Lowell.
My impression
is that he sold
his work and donated the rest as he had no right to sell
it. If that is wrong, then I may be wrong, but in
light of that
position, if I am
correct noone may claim that Jerry sold Kerouac's
letters for gain. He donated them.
On the archives,
my concern is the lack of availability and deterioation
in the
tapes. That is a valid issue for us if
we are to have free
information about
Kerouac.
I am tired of
draft talk on the Celtic list. This
thread is much
better.
Love you, mean
it.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:44:39 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: David's Impressions
David,
Thanks for your post summarizing your
impressions of the estate
debate. It was
excellent having neutral ground to test my own
recollections/impressions
against.
I'm hoping to get back quickly enough
to the list to encourage Gerry
and the other
comabattants to resist the temptation - great as it might be!
- to reply with
"clarifications". I thinks id would help greatly to have
other
"impressions' posted as well to see if we can't see the middle ground
that I'm sure
exists - the "no man's land?"
Her's hoping!
Thanks again.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:44:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Gerry's Dad's story
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> Gerry,
>
> Thank you for the vivid post
describing your dad's time in San
> Francisco.
It sounds like you did what too many of us neglect to do; really
> quiz your
Dad about his youth. Free advice to everyone on the list....ask
> your mom and
Dad and aunts and uncles and grandparents what their childhood,
> adolescence,
and coming of age was like; endlessly rewardimg as we can see!
>
> Was the aside about Lord Buckley a tip of
the hat to my frequently
> broadcast
interest in the Lord, or did it just trip off your tongue? Any
> evidence of
Buckley intersecting with Kerouac or the others? Charles
> Plymell
mentioned remembering Buckley from Los Angeles ...days of the
> old
Crackerbox Palace. He was truly a hipster! I've read Kerouac's
> description
of seeing slim Gaillard, but have always been curious about any
> awareness of
Lord Buckley (especially given the close association with
> Charlie
Parker) and Harry 'the Hipster' Gibson ("Who Put the Benzedrine in
> Mrs'
Murpht's Ovaltine").
>
> Thanks again. Any idea who Navrotsky
is or if I've spelt his name
> correctly?
The quotation as i heard it was attributed to them jointly. It's
> a good one.
Do you know Jo Grant? Is he / was he a labor organizer?
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah
Phillips
I just saw my Dad
Saturday night for the first time in months.
If I'd
read Gerry's
story before that Pop would have probably got a good
quizzing. I know that he used to hitch from Detroit to
Sterling Kansas
and back for
college in the early 1950s. The few
times I asked him
about it years
ago - it brought no stories - just "it's what i had to
do, it was the
only way I could afford to go back and forth." But I've
also heard tell
that my Ma's family in Northeastern Kansas thought my
Dad was too wild
- so I have a feeling that there are stories in there
somewhere to be
dug out ... :) My brother will be up
from Arizona in a
couple weeks and
we'll be at my Dad's for our step-sister's wedding.
Perhaps we can
gang tackle him and tie him up and force the stories out
of him. Or I can tell him that if he doesn't fess up,
I'll start
creating my own
legends which he might not like to well and maybe that
will bring it out
of him. To hear him talk it wasn't that
much
different than
walking down to a dime store or something.
Maybe by the
early 50s that
was true. I really don't know cuz if I
was around in
some former
incarnation, my memory is cloudy.
I loved Gerry's
story too !!!!! Made me think of my Dad
more than Jack
or Gerry's Dad
but sometimes that's the way those stories go.
take care all,
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:57:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: David's post
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> David:
>
> Thanks for
the post. I have reviewed most of the
posts that I can find
> on these
issues and welcome receiving copies of older posts back channel
> if anyone
saved them.
>
> On the issue
of selling letters:
>
> >From
what you said, it was a "joke" that got turned around and out of
>
proportion. I can see that happening and
do not take issue with that.
> But again,
did Gerry sell photocopies to Umass at Lowell.
My impression
> is that he
sold his work and donated the rest as he had no right to sell
> it. If that is wrong, then I may be wrong, but in
light of that
> position, if
I am correct noone may claim that Jerry sold Kerouac's
> letters for
gain. He donated them.
i have no access
to the formal agreements with Lowell U. to know whether
the package was
divided between sale and donations.
while I know little
of this, i could
understand sampas' concerns (a little) for letters
which are to be
published in forthcoming collections.
but once again,
it seems that is
something where all sense of proportion has been lost
and Jack's memory
suffers for it.
>
> On the
archives, my concern is the lack of availability and deterioation
> in the
tapes. That is a valid issue for us if
we are to have free
> information
about Kerouac.
Well it pisses me
off - what to do though? Unless part of
the
sale/donation
agreement required the Library to make these upgrades it
doesn't seem they
can be forced to do so. I've never
thought much of
letter campaigns,
but perhaps a letter campaign on that specific issue
would be
worthwhile.
I also think Bill
Gargan's notion of helping in gaining the permission
slips (somehow
they remind me of high school "hall passes") seems worth
trying.
>
> I am tired
of draft talk on the Celtic list. This
thread is much
> better.
This thread is
full of rancor but that one is full of textbook cases of
delusional
thought. we must pick our poisons
carefully .... )
I'm off to read
another forty or so in Dharma Lion then back to Memory
Babe for around
75-100 pages.
Memorial Day
What do we
remember on a
day
sanctified by the
State
for remembrances?
Do we remember
the soldiers
lost in foreign
wars
and relatives we
never
met?
Certainly, these
are appropriate
remembrances.
But my notions of
remembrance
are more twisted.
I remember the
families
I created in
the Mental
Hospitals
where all were
lonely
and all seemed to
breakdown
at Holiday after
Holiday.
I remember the
friends I've had
for years
who I never
met
in life
but know
deeply
in my
connection
and
identification
with their
words.
I put Skeletons
on the CD
player
and
I
sit back in
my rusty
recliner
and
attempt
to remember
scenes
from life
that seem
so far away
friends
from here
and there
scattered
victims of our
own
insanities
and I
remember
most of all
that
God is Pooh Bear.
David Rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:29:39 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Post on archives
I have not read
this entire post yet by Rod Antsee and can not address
the question
about Columbia University but the post states this:
The xeroxed
letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --
entirely aside
from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in
retrospect, that
Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first
place,
knowing that many
of them (originals) are the property of other
libraries.
Just as an
example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April,
1952
letter from JK to
AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's
covered
with margin notes
in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as
pointers to the
eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge
are
the following words:
<snip>
Rod:
I just posted to
the list, or backchanneled some one about this.
It is
my understanding
that these "photocopies" were not "purchased" by
UMASS-Lowell. They were donated because Gerry could not
sell them and
the purchase price
was substantially reduced. So, if I am
correct, we
should stop
categorizing these letters as being purchased.
Gerry:
Can you comment
on my position that the photocopied letters were not
sold and were
donated? Am I correct? If not, please set me straight as
soon as possible.
Now, I will
finish the post before sending and see if I have an idea on
the Columbia
question.
>I even wonder
if this wasn't one of the reasons that most other
insitutions you
apporached
>were not
interested?
Rod:
What is the
factual basis for this statement? I am
informed and believe
that there are
several preeiment universities that would accept Gerry's
archives as is
and open them to the public and preserve the tapes.
Please post the
source of your comments. What
universities have
expressed a lack
of interest in Gerry's archives? What is
the name of
the
librarian? Do you have facts? If there is such a University, has
it or its
librarian had contact with the Sampas family?
Have they been
threatened by
Sampas? I am not willing to accept a
conclusory statement
like this by you
about a great biographer. If you do not
have facts to
back it up, you
should not post things like this that could demean him
and his
work. I am not intending this as a flame,
but I have asked you
and others
repeartedly to give me facts please. And
I will continue to
search for them
in your post.
Rod, you said:
>or any
(alleged) Sampas interference in the running of the archive
>viv-a-vis
scholarly access.
In an article I
have from the Sun, by David Perry it is stated as either
facts or quotes
from Martha Mayo:
I.
"But since a
Connecticut woman called the Morgan Center 18 months ago to
request that the
public not be allowed to hear her interview with
Nicosia, the
tapes have sat two steel file cabinet drawers."
1. Who is the woman and why did she call? What did she say? Does
she have the
legal right to make this request? If she
gave an interview
and knew that it
might be published, there is no reason that Gerry can't
just publish all
of these tapes as is and in toto. Then,
no one can say
a thing about it.
Hey Gerry, what
do you think about publishing all of the tapes.
Call it
Nicosia's
Watergate Tapes? Then it is out there
and no one can say a
thing! Just a thought.
II.
" University
policy requires that taped interviews in its archives must
have the written
permission of the subject, or heirs, to be made
public. This rule also applies to
transcriptions."
Again, if there is
no law that requires this, then change the damn
policy or get the
collection somewhere where this is not the policy.
III.
>From Mayo
"It was my
understanding that permission was given.
It was implicit
that had been
done between the author and the people interviewed. But
people didn't
know it would be placed in a public institution. I never
asked him if it
had been done, and he didn't lie to me or anything. I
just ... believed
it had been done."
The Connecticut
caller -- whom Mayo declined to name --
"told me Gerry
had never gotten
permission to include it," said Mayo, "or that the tape
would be
available to the public ... . That's when we knew we had a
problem."
Mayo said two
persons have since called to close off access to their
interviews. She also declined to name them.
.....
Mayo said there's
little interest in the collection,
......
Because the
Kerouac estate controls the copyright to Kerouac's writing,
visitors to the
Mogan Center may read the letters in the collection and
may make notes
from them, but may not photocopy them without estate
permission. Center director Mayo said Sampas approached
her about two
years ago and
told her of the copyright law.
"You can't
go around copying people's letters without premission," said
Sampas. "I don't want all those letters flying
around. They're all
copyrighted by
the estate."
He's concerned
that giving people free access to Kerouac's papers will
result in them
appearing in "books and things--and that's ripping off
the estate. Anybody who wants a copy of any of those
letters needs my
permission. That's standard procedure.
Now Rod, that is
clear that Sampas has contacted the Lowell Mass library
and said that
nobody may copy what, Jack's letters mailed to third
parties. Does the estate own copyright to that? I don't know, but I
intend to know
real soon and when I have completed my research, I will
say that Sampas
better own the rights to stop people from photocopying
these letters
etc. Else, he may have interfered in
other's rights to
access without
having the right to do so.
And give me a
break here. How can the head of a
collection of a library
negotiate the
purchase of a collection like this and not know if
permission has
been granted to the author. Funny,
Nicosia can still
publish every
word on every tape and yet, I can't hear them because of
the policy of the
Lowell library? Come on, I think we are
being conned
here and I now
intend to find out
Rod,
This article
dated June 10, 1996 is just the library trying to make
Gerry out to be a
bad guy. Nowhere do they cite a law or
anything that
substantiates a
thing she says. And she won't identify
the persons.
Who are
they? Why not id them? And what right of privacy do you have
to an interview
that you gave in hopes that it would be published so all
the world could
see that you knew Jack Kerouac? Again,
this is not
right.
As the bard said
years ago in Hamlet:
There is
something rotten in Denmark.
Again, I do
appreciate the fact that you agree with Gerry on the
maintenace of the
tapes, I believe you yield too easily on the issue of
copyright. But if you are correct then we all should
support the
removal of such
obstacles. If Sampas is wrong, then we
all should tell
him to get out of
others business.
Peace,
Gerry,
In addition to
publishing all the tapes, and they be condensed to cd rom
so that the tapes
can be sold with the book?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:30:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Kampfner <judith@WELL.COM>
Subject: From Nick W-W re Letters
Comments: cc:
nweir-w@nwu.edu
Borrowing my
wife's e-mail as I'm not at work this Memorial Day...here's my
understanding re
letters and libraries.
There are two
very different issues at work here. One is copyright, the
other is the
right to read material in a library. It is certainly true in
the US that
copyright exists in letters and that you would need the
permission of
both the sender and the recipient to use the letter in a
book, or to quote
from it. The same would be true of audio interviews.
(this is not the
case in, say, Germany, where we have our own dipute with
the Heidegger
estate - if you think this one is nasty, believe me, you've
seen nothing.
There the sender of the letter alone has copyright).
However, I don't
think that's the real issue here, since we're talking
about access to
reading the letters, not quoting them. Any library has a
right to restrict
access to a valuable archive to bona-fide scholars or
whoever it wants,
and once they have taken possession of an archive I guess
they can make
their own rules. I think the permission business (them
claiming that in
order to look at the letters you need permission clips) is
bogus though. But
I will check next week with the Music Librarian here at
NU who can
confirm this.
Gerry (if I may),
I do think they're yanking your chain about the legality
of selling the
letters to deflect you from your main point, and if I may
say so you do
tend to jump at these distractions a bit easily. Most
libraries would
welcome the oportunity to purchase a collection put
together for
research purposes, and although you don't have copyright in
the pieces
obviously, you have collected them and that in itself is a
bona-fide thing
to sell. In the same way as a writer can claim copyright on
the selection and
editing of a group of articles or essays even if they
don't have
copyright in the actual articles.
I guess in your
sale to UM Lowell you should have had them sign something
about open access
and proper maintenance of the materials, both to stop
them
deteriorating and stop them being stolen. It sounds from what you say
at best very
sloppy and perhaps more suspicious than that - I'm very sorry
about it.
I will check up
with the archive librarians here and report back. I hope
this doesn't
confuse everyone even more.
And, Rinaldo, I
don't think any of that Cage archive is on the web at all -
they're still
working their way through it all. I will check up for you
though.
Nick W-W
Judith Kampfner
Midwest News and
Features
3813 N. Alta
Vista Terrace, Chicago IL 60613
ph 773 296 9590:
fax 773 296 1692
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:49:33 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick
Nick,
Thanks for the
comment on the right to use a letter. I
am going to do
some research on
that issue. How does fair use affect
this copyright
rule? If you are correct, it may be that Sampas can
prevent the library
from allowing
copying for commercial reasons. But as
to copying by a
scholar, then,
can that not be allowed under fair use?
Sampas can sue
anyone that uses copyrighted material for commercial use
in violation of
the copyright laws. Publishers will not
do that
anyway. That is not a real concern.
What is a real
concern is who stole materials from Lowell and what has
Lowell done to
get the material back?
Just a thought.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:04:16 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: Bush
>Hillary,
no, Bill yes,
Bentz, you really
consider Bill beat? I always considered him more
not-quite beat.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:29:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Peter Milo <cva38@PROLOG.NET>
Organization:
Micron Electronics, Inc.
Subject: Re: hello
Hi Amy
I'm sort of new
on this list but the portable beat reader is a good
source on
kerouac. In their they have the piece he
wrote called "The
essentials of
spontanous prose" or something like that which might be
helpful to you
Peater
(really Peter but
this is a more individual spelling)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:32:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Tears once again ....
Well, in
something of a remembrance day ritual
i put on Lou
Reed's Magic and Loss
and
screened through
slowly
slowly
slowly
the tribute page
from
the Beat-L
at Literary
Kicks.
Mayonaise Soda in
my
water glass
kept me going
reading these
words
once again
that i hadn't
seen for
many
many months.
i was a babe to
this list
when Allen died.
now the names
connected
with the poems
and many
words of tribute
and Lou
somewhere deep in
the
back of my brain
...
and then i got
to the first
post about
Allen's last
phone call.
the line about
how he always
cared about other
folks feelings
so much
and the tears
streamed
down
from my eyes over
my cheeks
and i could
hear Lou's music
of Eulogy
faintly in the
background...
the air
conditioner
turns off
and the tears
don't.
i slowly scroll
through the
rest of the page
type this note
and am heading
outside
for a camel light
and some
sun.....
david rhaesa
salina kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:00:02 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
>The xeroxed
letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --
>entirely
aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in
>retrospect,
that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first place,
>knowing that
many of them (originals) are the property of other libraries.
>Just as an
example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April, 1952
>letter from
JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's covered
>with margin
notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as
>pointers to
the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge are
>the following
words:
>
> " THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF
ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA
>UNIVERSITY
LIBRARIES.
>
> This copy must be returned to Special
Collections (801 Butler
>Library) at
the completion of the reader's use."
>
>
>Whilst it's
arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed your use
>of this
material, I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was actually
>put there to
preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at some
>later date,
to another institution --no? It renders your sale of such
>material to
the library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy. I even wonder if
>this wasn't
one of the reasons that most other insitutions you apporached
>were not
interested? (I assume your archive included this material -- on p.
>35 of the
list you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters of JK to
>Allen
Ginsberg"--
Dear Rod, May 26, 1997
Boy, kiddo, you sure are trying to get
back at me for revealing to
everyone on the
Beat-List that you kaffee-klatsched with John Sampas and
bought up
numerous pieces of the Kerouac archive for your own collection.
Let's stop lying here, Rod. I really am getting tired of it from
you guys.
What I sent you was a complete list of
MY RESEARCH MATERIALS. It
was not a list of
what I sold to U Mass, Lowell. NONE OF
THE XEROXES OF
KEROUAC'S LETTERS
TO GINSBERG WERE SOLD TO U MASS, LOWELL.
IT WOULD HAVE
BEEN A VIOLATION
OF MY AGREEMENT WITH COLUMBIA, AND I WAS WELL AWARE OF THAT.
NONE OF THE XEROXES I SOLD TO LOWELL
WERE THE PROPERTY OF OTHER
LIBRARIES. GOT THAT?
(I used "sold" not to mean
"sold" as you would sell peanuts on the
corner, as Chaput
implies, but "sold" meaning they were within the huge body
of the MEMORY
BABE archive, which was transferred en bloc to U Mass, Lowell,
for the sum of
$7,500.)
It is also not true that "most
other institutions I approached were
not
interested." All of them were,
including Bancroft at Berkeley, but at
the time Lowell
had the best offer--not just in terms of money, but in terms
of what APPEARED
TO BE accessibility to Kerouac scholars.
I chose what
seemed the best
university archive for my collection, and yes, money was a
part of the
decision (just as money was a part of the decision for Ginsberg
in placing his
collection at Stanford--you have a bone to pick with him
about that?).
Let's also tell the Beat List folk,
since we're outing everything
here, how you
happened to get a copy of that letter of Kerouac to Ginsberg
which I xeroxed (legally)
from Columbia. You didn't send a private
eye to
sleuth thru my
collection. I voluntarily sent it to you
to HELP YOU WITH A
SCHOLARLY ESSAY
YOU WERE WRITING on the censorship and poor editing of
Kerouac's
SELECTED LETTERS by Ann Charters. It was
in the form of scholarly
assistance--which
I have done for hundreds of other scholars on this planet,
FREE OF CHARGE.
Why don't you guys ever bring up all
the hundreds of hours of my
time I'VE DONATED
TO THE SCHOLARLY COMMUNITY--ALL THE LETTERS AND PHONE
CALLS I'VE
ANSWERED FROM YOUNG PEOPLE AND STUDENTS WITH QUESTIONS, ALL THE
SPEAKING GIGS
I'VE DONE FOR FREE, ETC.--INSTEAD OF ALL THIS SHIT YOU KEEP
POSTING ABOUT HOW
MERCENARY I AM?
Moreover, you and Chaput keep dodging
the main points I've been
making about
Lowell's sudden arbitrary decision to close the archive (after
complaints from
Sampas):
1) Kerouac letters are freely available
to be read, studied, and to
have notes taken
on them at every other major library that holds them.
2) Bancroft, Texas, and many other
libraries have told me that they
would have no
problem allowing access to the taped materials that were made
for use in my
biography. If someone like John Sampas
objected loudly enough
to his particular
tapes being heard, they might remove those particular
tapes from the
collection (out of courtesy) and RETURN THEM TO ME.
Lowell has not offered to return the
complained-of tapes to me,
however.
Moreover, Lowell does not have to worry
about losing its investment.
Several major
libraries have offered to reimburse Lowell for their costs, in
order to get the
collection out of Lowell, but the university also refuses
to sell (divest
itself of) the collection.
I wonder how much fear of John Sampas
has to do with that.
I.e., Lowell will NOT:
1) allow free access to the collection
2) properly care for the tapes and
other materials
3) allow another library to buy them
YOU TELL ME WHAT
IS GOING ON, MR. SMARTY PANTS ANSTEE.
Only this time,
check your facts
before you open your mouth.
Best always,
Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:48:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afae4406b877@[156.46.45.10]>
thinking about
kerouac
or,
spontaneous
sidewalk
what is it with
me, lately?
i keep buying
books.
i'm poor
but would rather go
hungry
than be hungry
for words
i want to be a
writer.
i read lots of writers
lots of poetry
lots of prose
lots of
writers writing about writing
and critics who write about
them,
until i get to feeling like the quaker oats man
who is pictured on the label
holding another quaker
box
with a little
quaker man, holding,
you know?
i mean, when does
he ever eat the oatmeal?
i throw over my
captors,
selfconsciouness
and fear,
and break free
and up from the
depths of my
inarticulate soul
the voices spoke
to me of kerouac,
and
word sketches
writ down in the moment.
now i stop all
thought,
and, suddenly,
finally !
i am left with IT!
jack 's
spontaneous prose
writ in humble
small pad
full of word sketches
novels
poetry
prose
and
emboldened,
out i go, tiny
pad in pocket
looking avidly
for
the perfect
poetic moment
to capture in
words,
a stupenousllyspontaenously
experience of IT
and so, i go, casting
eyes to sky
and down to
earth
& cement.
i walk quite a
bit,
and then further.
no epiphanies.
my pad begins to
sweat.
i stop.
and then i look
about.
i am standing
in the midst
of a cheery
hop scotch
scrawled in blue
chalk.
i had my note pad
ready
to capture it
all,
a fine lot
of writing
to be done in the moment,
a frenzy of scribbling
of making it new,
until, quite suddenly,
despite lingering winter chill
i stood enveloped
in the warmth of
twilight days
of summer.
mothers' voices
on the breeze
giving last call
for play
with
just
one
more
game
of hop scotch,
marbles, jumprope
kick the can
... (allly ally outs in free.....
voices called out
in my mind)
on a sunlit
afternoon this spring
i stood in
twilight summer haze
feeling once
again
dirty hands and
sticky faces,
bare feet on dewy
grass...
touch
taste
sight
sounds
alive!
i stood before the chalked outlines
scribbling
furiously.
ithen dashed off
to read my pocket
ful of
sketched
impressions,
literary
allusions,
and all things
real with potency.
yes, i feel like
a real poet now.
as i
sit down
excitedly
to transcribe my
notes
and fashion a
pome.
i open my
notebook :
no words at all,
only the sketch
of hopscotch blocks,
blue chalk and
all.
@mc/517/97
revised 5/26/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:02:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's
Gerry:
What a great
story. Karma indeed.
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:11:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Gerry's reply
I have now read
Gerry's reply. I have a couple of follow
up questions
and comments
here. First, it appears that I was wrong
to assume that
the letters from
Columbia were "donated" to Lowell.
Apparently, they
were not sold
either. They were not sent to Lowell by
Gerry at all!
So, that leads to
more questions for Rod Anstee:
Exactly what is
your point here Rod, Why did you make a post to this
list designed to
imply that Gerry had done something improper.
To
avoid confusion,
you said:
Rod Anstee wrote:
> Gerry, I
think you are on more solid ground with this issue than the
> other.
> There are
huge chunks of your archive that are irreplaceable --
> especially
> the tape
recordings, which must be preserved at all costs, even if the
> actual
>
access/rights issue isn't sorted out for years to come. Preserve the
> tapes at
> least!
>
> (ASIDE: I can, for example, see that someone
who had granted you an
> interview
back in the mid-1970's, might now be a bit
>
surprised/troubled to
> discover
that the entire interview was potentially now available in
> complete
> form, either
audio or transcript, to the public -- that is, I can
> realize
> that one of
your interviewees might not have forseen such an
> eventuality
when
> they
originally granted the interview as part of helping you with your
> book.
> I say, I can
sort of SEE someone feeling that way, though I imagine
> most of
> the
interviewees don't care either way, and if asked would readily
> grant
> permission.
I am thinking of someone like Helen Weaver, for example,
> who
> might very
well be writing her own memoirs of her time with JK, and
> therefore
> not feel
comfortable -- I pick Helen W. just as an hypothetical
> example
> though, you
understand.)
>
> The original
letters, too, even in 1987 deserved extra special
> treatment,
and
> it's
appalling to think that they have somehow been allowed to
> disappear
into
> the void.
(See, we can/do agree on some things!)
>
> The xeroxed
letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --
>
> entirely
aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised,
> in
> retrospect,
that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first
> place,
> knowing that
many of them (originals) are the property of other
> libraries.
> Just as an
example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8
> April, 1952
> letter from
JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's
> covered
> with margin
notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves,
> as
> pointers to
the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one
> edge are
> the
following words:
>
> " THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF
ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA
> UNIVERSITY
LIBRARIES.
>
> This copy must be returned to Special
Collections (801 Butler
>
> Library) at
the completion of the reader's use."
>
> Whilst it's
arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed
> your use
> of this
material, I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was
> actually
> put there to
preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at
> some
> later date,
to another institution --no? It renders your sale of such
> material to
the library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy. I even
> wonder if
> this wasn't
one of the reasons that most other insitutions you
> apporached
> were not
interested? (I assume your archive included this material --
> on p.
> 35 of the
list you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters
> of JK to
> Allen
Ginsberg"-- and I assume that comparable letters, from other
> libraries
> came with
similar restrictions.)
>
> I guess I'm
just suggesting that, in some respects at least, some of
> the
> content of
your MB archive is rather problematical, legally speaking.
> Of
> course this
in no way excuses any mishandling of the remainder of the
> archive, or
any (alleged) Sampas interference in the running of the
> archive
> viv-a-vis
scholarly access.
>
> Just a
thought. CHEERS Rod
I.I am thinking
of someone like Helen Weaver, for example, whomight very
well be writing
her own memoirs of her time with JK, and therefore
not feel
comfortable -- I pick Helen W. just as an hypothetical example
though, you
understand.
Question:
Now Rod, Is Helen
Weaver a real person? Do you know
her? Where does
she live? Has she ever called the library at Lowell to
tell them not to
allow access to
her tapes? If she is a real person, why
would you use
her name in a
hypothetical? It appears that if Helen
Weaver is a real
person then you
may in fact have knowledge of her intentions.
Why not
just say that
Joan Doe may be writing a book?
II:
The xeroxed
letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --
entirely aside
from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in
retrospect, that
Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first
place,
knowing that many
of them (originals) are the property of other
libraries.
Just as an
example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April,
1952
letter from JK to
AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's
covered
with margin notes
in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as
pointers to the
eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge
are
the following
words:
" THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF
ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA
UNIVERSITY
LIBRARIES.
This copy must be returned to Special
Collections (801 Butler
Library) at the
completion of the reader's use."
Rod:
You have posted
to this list two facts:
1. That Martha Mayo purchased this letter
despite the restrictions on
the face of the
letter.
2. That Gerry Nicosia sold it to the Library
despite the restrictions
on the face of
the letter.
Questioins:
This implys, no
states, that they have both violated the law.
Is the
letter of which
you speak in the collection at Lowell?
Does it have
Gerry's notes on
it? Was it sold to Lowell? If not, when
will you post
your apology to
both Martha Mayo and Gerry? For your
information, I am
printing out a
copy of your post and mailing it to Martha Mayo and will
ask her to
respond to me in writing that I can
reproduce and post here
to clarify this
issue. I will send her both of my posts
as well. I
will not send her
Gerry's. I will post the letter to the
list when it
is written. I don't have her address but assume that I
can get it.
III.
Whilst it's
arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed your
use
of this material,
I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was
actually
put there to
preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at some
later date, to
another institution --no? It renders your sale of such
material to the
library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy.
Question:
Was this letter
sold to Lowell? Was the sale to Lowell
in any way
whatsoever
"dodgy" and if so, in what way and specifically please?
Rod you say a lot
and yet, I see nothing but your conclusions without
any supporting
facts. It seems as if you are saying
negative things
about Gerry but
in a way that you can try to claim later that they were
"honest"
mistakes and not intended to defame him.
But if your
conclusion that
he sold the restricted materials to Lowell is not true,
then you have
already, in my opinon defamed both he and Martha Mayo and
with what
proof. I await your public
response. I don't know if Gerry
sold them or not,
but that is why I am writing Martha Mayo.
IV.
(I assume your
archive included this material -- on p.
35 of the list
you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters of
JK to
Allen
Ginsberg"-- and I assume that comparable letters, from other
libraries
came with similar
restrictions.)
Question:
Why would you
make say this without knowing? Now you
have said that
Gerry has sold
other restricted materials. Man, what is
going on in
your mind. If you are wrong, this is terrible. If you are right, why
don't you come
right out and say, I have been to Lowell and reviewed the
collection, Gerry
sold these letters from Columbia etc and they are
items 1,2,3 etc
of the collection? Where is the proof to
back this up
man?
I know the
internet is a great place to exchange ideas, but to make
these accusations
and then say, well I assumed this, well you should not
do that.
Come forth with
facts or leave this thread alone Rod. It
is not right
to accuse by
innuendo.
And while we are
on the subject, Rod, you admitted that the letter you
got was from
Gerry.
>Just as an
example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8
April, 1952
>letter from
JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's
covered
>with margin
notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as
>pointers to
the eventual text in MEMORY BABE --
Why did Gerry
send this to you? Did you request his
assistance? Were
you working on a
project? Has Gerry ever answered any
questions from
you?
If Gerry sent
that to you in private correspondence, then I personally
can have no
respect for you. In the South we live by
a code, and it may
be antiquated,
but you never, never take something obtained in
friendship and
use it against that friend. That is as
low as you can
get down
here. Maybe where you come from, that is
ok, but not in my
book. And by the way, I have done my homework and
know where and how
you got it, so if
you respond, then make sure it is truthful.
As I said, I am
going to do the legal research and will report my
findings.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:20:15 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Post on Archives
May 26,
1997 MEMORIAL DAY
This post is in
response to the long post by Bentz Kirby:
Dear Bentz,
It's Memorial Day, and I'd rather be
finishing up my book on the
healing of Vietnam
veterans, who are one of the greatest bunch of guys I've
ever known
(they'd don't backbite and lie, they don't pretend to be your
friend when
they're not, they have a great passion for justice, and they
call 'em like
they see 'em). But instead the
bullshit's still flying here,
and so I've got
to keep shoveling it.
Mr. Anstee writes a very cool, calm,
and collected post. He's not a
hot-headed dago
like I am. But that doesn't mean there
isn't a shitload of
malice behind
what he writes.
Mr. Anstee was taking whacks at me
behind my back, calling me
"worse"
than Sampas, before I even got on the Beat-List. What is really
curious about
this is that Mr. Anstee has written and acted, to my face, as
if he were my
friend for the past 13 or so years (excuse me if I'm one or
two years
off). In return, I helped him on a whole
variety of projects,
provided him with
dozens of pieces of Beat and Kerouac memorabilia, etc.
Where that malice came from, I don't
know, other than perhaps Mr.
Anstee felt
vulnerable in that he had revealed to me how much of Jack
Kerouac's archive
he had bought for his own collection.
And now that I move
legally closer to
recovering rights in Kerouac materials for the Kerouac
Estate, perhaps I
seem like a threat to him--i.e., perhaps he fears if I win
in Florida, he
will have to surrender the Kerouac items he has paid good
money for,
because that would mean they were not legally John Sampas's to
have sold.
In any case, let's answer some of your
questions:
1) "Does anyone actually know what
Sampas has done [with regard to
selling off
Kerouac items and artifacts]? Yes, many
people have testified
to this. I have a seven-page list of witnesses and
testimony, which I will
provide to you
off-line, if you wish, since it may be needed for evidence in
court. Certainly dealer Jeffrey Weinberg, who
handled the archive for
Sampas from
1991-1993 and who is on the Beat-List, has not contested the
majority of my
allegations [he only claimed the price of the raincoat was
less than
$50,000].
We keep hearing the myth that Sampas
sold the Kerouac Archive to the
New York Public
Library. I plan to demolish that myth
once for all later
today. But let me just post one curious fact here. Jeffrey Weinberg states
that he sold the
manuscript of Kerouac's BOOK OF DREAMS (as agent for Mr.
Sampas) to a
private collector. I have every reason
to believe him.
As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Weinberg
is one of the most honest
people on this
list. I say this, not because we are
friends. We have never
met. And in fact, we've crossed swords with each
other more than a few
times over the
past 20 years (angry letters exchanged, angry phone calls).
But Mr. Weinberg is an okay guy in my
book. Every time we have
talked on the
phone, he has talked straight with me.
He has only revealed
the names of his
customers who were willing to be revealed, but he has told
me of hundreds of
items that were sold.
Somehow, when all this controversy
arose, the BOOK OF DREAMS
manuscript ended
up in the New York Public Library--so that John Sampas
could use it as
evidence that he has all along been selling stuff there, and
will someday sell
everything there.
But how did BOOK OF DREAMS get from the
private collector Weinberg
sold it to (in
his capacity as Sampas's agent) to the New York Public Library?
Did Sampas go and buy it back from the
collector and then resell it
to the NYPL? Just a thought, one of the many mysteries
that will not be
explained till
Sampas openly reveals what he has done WITH EVERY SINGLE ITEM
OF JACK KEROUAC'S
ARCHIVE.
2) Did I donate part of my collection to U Mass,
Lowell? Well, that's a
moot point. My archive was appraised at the time at
$15,000--an amount no
library was then
able to offer for it. I might well have
made that much
money selling my
archive off piece by piece, but I chose not to do that, not
to destroy its
scholarly value in that fashion.
When U Mass, Lowell, said they could
only come up with $7,500, I
agreed to that
price, saying I would make the other half a donation. I also
allowed the
university to spread the payments out over three years, to make
it easier for
them to acquire the archive. However, we
never actually drew
up donation
papers. And even if we had, since I was
simply donating part of
the appraised
value, it would be arbitrary to say which items were "donated"
and which were
"sold." But no xerox that was
owned by another library was
included in the
body of material that was finally transferred to U Mass, Lowell.
3) "What is the factual basis for this
statement [by Mr. Anstee, that most
other
institutions I approached were not interested in the MEMORY BABE
archive]?" There is no factual basis. Every single library I talked
to--and there
were many--wanted the archive, but several of them wanted it
for free, which I
simply couldn't afford to do back in 1986.
Now, several
libraries have
offered to pay Lowell good money to give up the
archive--since
Lowell acts as if they have no use for it.
One library--I'm
not at liberty to
say which--even told me they were "salivating" at the
prospect of
getting it.
4) "Who is
the woman [from Connecticut] and why did she call?" We should
call her the No
Name Woman, since librarian Martha Mayo refuses to name her.
I was first
apprised of the fact that the MEMORY BABE archive was closed by
a post card in
June, 1995, from scholar/writer/teacher Jim Jones. On the
post card, Mr.
Jones wrote: "I just tried to look at the papers you donated
to the University
of Lowell and the librarian in the Mogan Center told me
your collection
is closed to the public until the lawsuit [Jan Kerouac vs.
the Sampases] is
resolved."
I called librarian Martha Mayo, and she
told me "someone" had come
in to
complain. After much prodding, she
finally confessed that the person
was John
Sampas. Only later, after I had made a
big stink claiming John
Sampas did not
have a legal right to close my collection, did Mayo change
her story--she
has in fact changed it several times already--and claim there
was another
caller, "the woman from Connecticut."
She has thus far declined
to name her. Mr. Anstee speculates it is Helen Weaver--a
writer and lover
of Kerouac's from
Connecticut, but no, it is not Helen Weaver.
And it is
not Ann Charters,
who lives in Storrs, because I didn't interview Ann on tape.
Later still, Mayo claimed that several
people had called. But when
I pushed her on
this point, last fall in Lowell, she came back to the story
that there were
only two people, one of whom was John Sampas, and the other
was the No Name
Woman from Connecticut.
5) "What do you think about publishing
all the tapes?" It's a great
idea, esp. on
CD-ROM, but we'd have to get them out of Lowell first, since I
didn't keep
copies. I was too poor at the time to
copy 25,000 pieces of
paper and 300
tapes. I have, however, published a few
of the interviews in
literary
magazines, and nobody ever claimed I didn't have the legal right to
do so.
6) Ms. Mayo--she who cannot keep her stories
straight--claims it was
her
"understanding that permission was given." First of all, I didn't
negotiate with
Martha Mayo, I negotiated with Collections Acquisition
Librarian Dick
Ross for a full year (he was above Mayo in the U Mass
hierarchy). Ross and I had numerous conversations over
the course of a
year, before the
sale was made, and all my cards were out on the table about
the fact that there
were no written permissions. Writers who
turn over
their literary
collections to a university ALMOST NEVER have the kind of
permissions Mayo
is talking about. Ferlinghetti has put
materials from
thousands of
people into his City Lights Archive at Bancroft in Berkeley,
including 20
letters from a guy named Gerry Nicosia, and you can see all
that material
tomorrow despite the fact that there is no written permission
to do so (nobody
ever asked this Gerry Nicosia guy for his permission).
7) "Does the estate own copyright to that
[Kerouac's letters]?" Yes,
the copyright of
a letter reverts to the sender, while the physical property
is owned by the
recipient. That means John Sampas
legally owns the
copyright to
Kerouac's letters. Does this give him
the right to prevent
people from
reading those letters if they are in a public institution?
ABSOLUTELY
NOT. Does it give him the right to
prevent scholars from
photocopying
those letters for personal use? That is
a moot point, an area
that is currently
under debate. Some lawyers will say,
yes, xerox is a form
of publication,
and Sampas lawfully controls publication.
Other lawyers
will say xerox of
a single copy is not publication.
Different libraries
have different
policies, and the policies are changing all the time.
But at present there are a number of
libraries I can walk into
tomorrow and
xerox Kerouac letters, including Bancroft at Berkeley. This
despite the fact
that Sampas has called some of these libraries, including
Bancroft, to
complain about such things.
8) "If Sampas is wrong, then we all should
tell him to get out of others
business." Amen, and out of the business of trying to
control and limit
Kerouac
scholarship.
Best always,
Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:25:06 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: to Kirby
Kirby - I took
out the "and other arsonists" out of the title...i'm less
peeved now!
You know, Kirby, in England they have a
very fine legal concept of
distinguishimg
the Solicitor, who establishes the case - tort, defense, etc.
- and he
Barrister, who fights it in court withthe assistance at table of
the solicitor. It
pisses me off to see you taking the role of Barrister with
regardto Rod's
post and ladling on the vitriol and gasoline to really stoke
things up.
The points made were made in a calm and
reasoned way. I know that
Rod and Gerry are
seen to be at odds, but if everyone from the two of them
to you and to me
would just cool it and act nice, we could still discuss
things, throw
light into the corners and - if not agree - at least stop
trying to hate
each other and piss each other off...
..and I apologize for pissing you off,
but try to be more neutral in
all this. it's
not necessary to take sides. Cimino has said it often enough
that the idea
should be to protect and open access to the archives. I swear
that after
listening to all this stuff, I am going - at minimum - to visit
New York to see
what's there...and maybe I'll go bug Mayo in Lowell!
Having started with the legal eagle
baloney (maloney?) I ask also
that all the talk
of suits, counter-suits, fraud, malfeasance, theft, and
various other
skullduggery be left off the list - unless of course it's
really juicy
stuff, in which case Carry On!
One final point in support of one of
Rod's points; it's critical to
move quickly on
any audio tape recordings in Gerry's or anyone elses's
archive that ar
more than 15 years old. There is likely to already be
evidence of
degradation and after 25 years you risk being left with tape hiss!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:37:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: to Kirby
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
> Kirby - I
took out the "and other arsonists" out of the title...i'm
> less
> peeved now!
>
> You know, Kirby, in England they have
a very fine legal
> concept of
>
distinguishimg the Solicitor, who establishes the case - tort,
> defense,
etc.
> - and he
Barrister, who fights it in court withthe assistance at table
> of
> the
solicitor. It pisses me off to see you taking the role of
> Barrister
with
> regardto
Rod's post and ladling on the vitriol and gasoline to really
> stoke
> things up.
>
> The points made were made in a calm
and reasoned way. I know
> that
> Rod and
Gerry are seen to be at odds, but if everyone from the two of
> them
> to you and
to me would just cool it and act nice, we could still
> discuss
> things,
throw light into the corners and - if not agree - at least
> stop
> trying to
hate each other and piss each other off...
>
> ..and I apologize for pissing you off,
but try to be more
> neutral in
> all this.
it's not necessary to take sides. Cimino has said it often
> enough
> that the
idea should be to protect and open access to the archives. I
> swear
> that after
listening to all this stuff, I am going - at minimum - to
> visit
> New York to
see what's there...and maybe I'll go bug Mayo in Lowell!
>
> Having started with the legal eagle
baloney (maloney?) I ask
> also
> that all the
talk of suits, counter-suits, fraud, malfeasance, theft,
> and
> various
other skullduggery be left off the list - unless of course
> it's
> really juicy
stuff, in which case Carry On!
>
> One final point in support of one of Rod's
points; it's
> critical to
> move quickly
on any audio tape recordings in Gerry's or anyone elses's
>
> archive that
ar more than 15 years old. There is likely to already be
> evidence of
degradation and after 25 years you risk being left with
> tape hiss!
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what
> to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
Antoine:
Understand that I
do not yet represent Gerry. But, the way
these posts
are coming is
disturbing. He is a great biographer and
his work,
including
interviews is in danger of being lost.
He does not need to
defend his work
to accusations that are not backed by facts.
I am
investigating assisting him on the Lowell matter and what can be
done to preserve
the tapes. That is all so far.
My point here was
not to be threatening, but to make sure that people
understand that
you just can not make posts like this that imply he has
done something
wrong and has ilegally sold materials that were
restricted,
unless you are right.
Why was the post
just, hey the tapes need to be saved, lets do it. The
rest could be done
back channel. Rod had Gerry's number, he
can call,
write or
backchannel. We don't need people making
statements like this
unless they are
true and are substantiated. I do not
want to lose Gerry
from this list
because of such stuff!!
Thanks and I will
take your advice and see where it leads.
On the other
hand, I am not
going to sit back and let others attack Gerry and leave
him out to
twist. Rod, stick to the good stuff, or
what you know.
Thanks
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:49:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Frank O'Hara, a poetry.
Rinaldo:
I just
borrowed Frank O'Hara's Collected Poetry
and plan on dipping into it
today.
Very likely I
will find out why I am not a poet.
Julie
a painter who
thinks she would rather be a poet, but she is not
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:51:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.
In-Reply-To: <l03020903afaf35490ac4@[206.25.67.120]>
mc
i read a
lot (& his
wife)
of authors
writing about
the end of
caps
capitals
capitalism
captives
all they can
see seeing
&
critics
writing about
only
themselves
& the end of
their
nose.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:59:42 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Gerry's reply
>Now Rod, Is
Helen Weaver a real person? Do you know
her? Where does
>she live? Has she ever called the library at Lowell to
tell them not to
>allow access
to her tapes? If she is a real person,
why would you use
>her name in a
hypothetical? It appears that if Helen
Weaver is a real
>person then
you may in fact have knowledge of her intentions. Why not
>just say that
Joan Doe may be writing a book?
GOOD QUESTION,
BENTZ. HELEN WEAVER IS A FRIEND OF MINE,
AND IT WAS NOT SHE
WHO CALLED U
MASS, LOWELL TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HER TAPE BEING ACCESSIBLE. I
HAVE HER ADDRESS
AND CAN PROVIDE IT TO YOU OFFLINE, IF YOU NEED IT. MR.
ANSTEE HERE WAS
CLEARLY USING A SPECIFIC NAME OF A 'WOMAN IN CONNECTICUT' TO
GIVE MORE
CREDIBILITY TO HIS ARGUMENT.
>
>II:
>2. That Gerry Nicosia sold it to the Library
despite the restrictions
>on the face
of the letter.
>
>Questioins:
>
>This implys,
no states, that they have both violated the law. Is the
>letter of
which you speak in the collection at Lowell?
Does it have
>Gerry's notes
on it? Was it sold to Lowell? If not,
when will you post
>your apology
to both Martha Mayo and Gerry? For your
information, I am
>printing out
a copy of your post and mailing it to Martha Mayo and will
>ask her to
respond to me in writing that I can
reproduce and post here
>to clarify
this issue. I will send her both of my
posts as well. I
>will not send
her Gerry's. I will post the letter to
the list when it
>is
written. I don't have her address but
assume that I can get it.
>
MARTHA MAYO IS
SPECIAL COLLECTIONS LIBRARIAN AT U MASS, LOWELL, C/O THE
MOGAN CENTER, 40
FRENCH STREET, LOWELL MASSACHUSETTS 01854. SHE'S ALSO ON
THE INTERNET BUT
I DON'T HAVE HER EMAIL ADDRESS. SHE'S
NOT TOO MUCH OF A
FAN OF GERALD
NICOSIA, ESPECIALLY AFTER I FILED A POLICE REPORT REVEALING
THAT SHE HAD
ALLOWED 60 RARE LETTERS TO BE STOLEN FROM THE MEMORY BABE
COLLECTION, BUT I
ALSO EXPECT SHE WILL NOT PRETEND THE LETTERS ROD ALLUDES
TO ARE IN HER
POSSESSION, WHEN I HAVE PROOF THEY ARE NOT.
In the South we live by a code, and it may
>be
antiquated, but you never, never take something obtained in
>friendship
and use it against that friend. That is
as low as you can
>get down
here. Maybe where you come from, that is
ok, but not in my
>book. And by the way, I have done my homework and
know where and how
>you got it,
so if you respond, then make sure it is truthful.
>
>
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
I live by the same code, and it has
been one of the shocks of my
life during this
whole Kerouac Vs. Sampas affair to find how many people I
have helped have
stabbed me in the back, including Ann Charters.
And how
much of it seems
to be connected to making money off of/with help from John
Sampas.
In 1988, when the Kerouac Commemorative
was dedicated in Lowell, the
Sampas family and
their allies, who were running the ceremony and
festivities,
chose to invite neither Jan Kerouac nor any of the Kerouac
biographers. Brad Parker, who had an independent group
(Lowell Corporation
for the Humanities,
much at odds with the "official" Lowell Kerouac
Committee)
invited me and provided money for me to come to Lowell to speak
during that
celebration. I told Brad Parker that he
should also invite Ann
Charters, and he
did. That's how Ann got to Lowell, and
got to meet John
Sampas. Three years later, after Stella Sampas died
and John took over, he
hired Ann to
provide consultation regarding the Kerouac archives and to
begin a series of
lucrative editing projects, which continues to this very day.
However, in 1994, Ann Charters, who was
one of the chairs of NYU's
Beat conference,
did her best to see that I was not invited; and when I
finally did come
(at Jan Kerouac's insistence) I was not given the airfare
and free room at
the University Suites that all the other participants got
(including
Charters herself and even Gregory Corso's children, who were not
actually
participants but just there to lend moral support). In 1995, when
NYU did a KEROUAC
CONFERENCE, which listed Charters' name at the top of the
program, Ann
claimed to me she knew nothing about the conference till a week
before the
programs were sent out. When I asked to
be invited, I was
completely
stonewalled, and when I showed up anyway and paid my $120 to get
in (as Jan
herself had to do), I was removed by police for defending Jan
Kerouac's right
to speak there. When I asked Ann if she
thought this was
right, she said,
"I know nothing about it."
Thanks a lot, Ann.
Thanks a lot, Rod.
Thanks a lot, Paul Maher, for my going
to the Lowell District
Attorney to tell
him you WERE MOST LIKELY NOT THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE THIEF,
after Martha Mayo
claimed (without evidence) that you were.
Et tu, Brutus?
Still not giving up on friendship,
Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:01:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Frank O'Hara, a poetry.
In-Reply-To:
<970526144924_-1866894138@emout17.mail.aol.com>
>
> Julie
> a painter
who thinks she would rather be a poet, but she is not
>
julie
can understand
that completely. trying to convince myself of many things
that i am (may
be) not (or maybe just not yet, who knows?) - painter,
artist,
printmaker, student, worker, drone, individual, poet, eternal
teahead of time
(like proust?)
challenge, isnt it?
yrs
derek
a pinocchio who
thinks he would rather be a real boy, but he is not.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:46:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Gerry's reply
> Thanks a lot, Paul Maher, for my going
to the Lowell District
>Attorney to
tell him you WERE MOST LIKELY NOT THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE THIEF,
>after Martha
Mayo claimed (without evidence) that you were.
> Et tu, Brutus?
>
"Brutus hath rived my
heart:
>A friend
should bear his friend's infirmities,
But Brutus makes mine greater than they
are."
Gerry-
Am I to be indentured to your servitude
because you salvaged my
reputation in the
face of the law? I neither sought nor earned your aid. I
never solicited
your aid, endorsed your cause, nor have I ever even met you
face to face nor
will I ever want to in the future. You are a scourge upon
serious Kerouac
scholarship, you are a blight to academia, and you and your
unsophisticated
ways will some day reap what you sow. Your insignificant
presence does not
warrant any fear in my heart nor will it ever. I paid my
price for my
CRIME and it in more ways than one changed my life for the
better. I am
REAL AND IN TOUCH
WITH MY REALITY. Creative freedom has always been the
cornerstone of my
existence and the mother of all my inventions. You, Mr.
Nicosia, play no
part in this. You do not have a monopoly on Kerouac
scholarship. You
create the vendettas that are employed against you and then
you use this as a
forum for "us against them." Mr. Sampas, (if you insist
there are
"sides" to this foolish drama)demonstrates maturity and
professionalism
in his role as literary executor. You, on the other hand, do
not even
demonstrate a level-handed approach to scholarship. You use Memory
Babe as your
pulpit when a good amount of the material is plagued with gross
inaccuracies and
poor
documentation.
yes, my pen can indeed be as poisonous as yours but that is
not what I am
about. You play no part in my daily but as a flea on an
elephant's ass.
You are a fly on a mountain of shit. it's too bad you and
your devout
followers (if you have any) missed Hale-Bopp..............last
on this....EVER.
PAUL MAHER JR. THE GUY WHO STOLE BOOKS FROM MOGAN CENTER
LIBRARY BUT IS
NOW THE SCAPEGOAT FOR GERRY NICOSIA'S WORTHLESS STOLEN
ARCHIVES....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:32:29 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Peter Milo <cva38@PROLOG.NET>
Organization:
Micron Electronics, Inc.
Subject: who is your dad? and letter to kerouac
Hi
I'm a lurker
turning active now. I have a quick
question for phil who
is your dad is
mentioned in any of Kerouac's books or any such thing?
It seems that a
lot of people here have known each other for years
through families
even. I never met any of the beats but I
was going to
try to meet
Ginsburg and as luck has it the year I'm moving back to New
York he dies.
One more question
a few months ago around febuary there was this site it
was one a
narrative I forgot the author's name but it was called "letter
to kerouac"
I liked a lot and I printed it out I lost that copy and the
site is off of
the net so does any one know the author's email address
so I can get a
copy?
thanks a lot
Peater
(really spelled
Peter but this spelling is more individual)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:42:02 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Paul Maher
Paul, I gotta
tell ya buddy, you're showing your true colors with that last
post of
yours. For a guy who three days ago said
he'd had enough and even
sent a message
saying "unsubscribe" you sure have a whole lot to say about
nothing.
Paul, some of us
were hoping to keep the *debate* at a reasonable level
during the cease
fire of the Memorial Day weekend.
Obviously you don't want
to do your part
as evidenced by the general nastiness of your tone.
"Scholar?" Paul, I hardly think so given the level to
which you have sunk
here.
Say something
useful, Paul, instead of general namecalling!
I asked you a
week ago why you
thought Gabrielle's signature was real as opposed to faked
since you're one
of the few people on the list to have actually seen the
will. Why can't you answer questions put to you?
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:53:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Clarification
I have received
several back channel posts here. First,
I intend to
write Lowell and
find out about the letters. Not as a
lawyer, but as a
fan. Why?
Because there was a post here by Rod today that said that
Gerry sold
restricted documents to UMass Lowell and that UMass Lowell
bought them. I want to know the answer. And if Gerry did that, then I
want to know
should he have done that? Was it legal?
If Rod has proof
that it was done, then he should offer the proof. Not
state what his
assumption is. This is not some comment
on well, I think
Jimi Hendrix was
high at such and such a festival. And
then finding out
he was not. It was a direct statement that Gerry had done
a thing that
was not right and
in violation of a statemen printed on the document.
Now, since we
can't look at the documents at Lowell, then we must do
what? I don't know what else to do but write the
woman and ask her if
Rod is
correct. Or Rod can answer on the list
and give the information
that shows what
he says is correct. If he is not
correct, then I want
to see it
clarified.
Another thing, I
am not Gerry's attorney. I am not his
agent. If the
time comes that I
enter into a contract with him to do any legal work, I
will inform the
list and will not post on his matters on this list. If
I were his
attorney I would not be posting on this list.
All of what I
am doing is as a
fan of Kerouac. Now, if Rod is right,
and there is no
explanation, I
would not want to get involved. But if
Rod is wrong,
then it should be
clarified. I will post the letter
tonight or tomorrow
when it is ready.
I have received
other back channel mail with links to explain some
things to me, I
will check it out.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:20:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
I'm off out in a
few minutes to coach soccer, but I wanted, if possible, to
nip this thread
in the bud, albeit somewhat belatedly. It seems I used the
word
"purchased" in regard to the 2000 xeroxed letters in the MB Archive,
when
"donated' would have been a more appropriate word. I apologize for this
-- in my defense,
I would say only that I don't think this distinction has
ever been made
previously in regards to the contents of the MB Archive, i.e.
between the
"purchased" contents and the "donated" contents. In any
event,
the statement I
quoted from, that was stamped upon the 1952 JK to AG letter
I mentioned earlier today, surely also
precludes the subsequent "donating"
of such material,
so the point I was trying to make still stands -- the
presence of this
class of material in the MB archive creates a
problematical
situation for the
administrating of the collection. Again, quite apart from
any Sampas
pressure. I don't think that's an unfair statement, is it?
Just to makes
things even more clear, as regards to my confusion. This is a
quotation from
the covering letter (dated 12 February, 1987) you sent to me
with the list of
what you earlier today referred to as your "research
archive."
You wrote:
"This
CATALOGUE (emphasis mine) is privileged information, and I ask that you
not pass it
around. Anyone interested should deal directly with me."
I guess I took
"catalogue" to mean a list of items for sale.
Also, in the
matter of your attempts to place the archive in other
institutions, in
a later letter, dated 3 May, 1987 you further wrote:
"It looks
like I might be selling the whole lot to Jeffrey Weinberg of
Sudbury Mass -- I
would rather have sold it to an institution or library, but
NONE (emphasis
yours, actually!) of them could come up with even five
thousand bucks
(though U of Texas had just spent seventeen MILLION on some
weird collection
-- ,...."
As for your help,
down through the years, yes of course you have been an
invaluable help
in my occasional scholarly forays -- I have certainly never
denied this, or
even diminished its importance. I hereby thank you publicly,
if that is what
is required -- I know, however, that I thanked you privately
every step of the
way. You know that my quarrels with you in the past month
or so, focus
specifically on the issue of the JK archive, and whether you
represent a
Kerouacian's best friend in this regard, or whether your
continued
involvment in this issue isn't actually counter-productive. That's
all. I believe
the latter. I know many others disagree. That's fine.
Again, I
apologize for using "purchased" instead of "donated" in my
post
earlier
today. My point -- I thought a very mild
one, actually -- still
stands though
Gerry.
CHEERS, Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:27:15 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: to Kirby
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote: . . .
>
> I am investigating
assisting him on the Lowell matter and what can be
> done to
preserve the tapes. That is all so far.
>
> My point
here was not to be threatening, but to make sure that people
> understand
that you just can not make posts like this that imply he has
> done
something wrong and has ilegally sold materials that were
> restricted,
unless you are right.
>
Mr. Kirby,
Like others I am
somewhat confused by your role in this.
Are you
1--trying to
catch up on this matter and come to your own independant
judgement?
2--acting as a
current or potential attorney for Mr. Nicosia?
3--trying to
improve our collective debating habits from the vantage
point of your
legal profession?
I am not in your
business so can't provide an expert
prospective, but
if you looking at
a lawyer client relationship with Nicosia are you
using the list to
1 research your
case?
2 argue that
case, the way attorney's try to use the media outside
trials?
I'm stumped. It seems to me that if I thought I would be
working on
this I would keep
my mouth shut and my powder dry for court.
It feels
like what you are
doing is pouring gasoline on a situation that looked
over the weekend
to be cooling. Mr Nicosia and Mr. Chaput
were actually
talking about
memories of Kerouac. Real improvement I
thought. No
we're back to
yelling and name calling.
Are we supposed
to watch our posts because you might drag us into court?
I welcome anyone
into any of these discussions, but I certainly didn't
anticipate that
we needed someone to constantly insert their legal
function into the
discussion. Nobody asked for a court
appointed
arbitor. I don't think anyone wants to come to this
list accompanied by
their
lawyers. Let's get back to talking about
the beats. If you are
here to talk
about the beats, fine, join in. If you
are here as a
lawyer for some
party on the list, my own personal wish is that you
dissapear and let
us get back to what we used to do
We sometimes used
to have little spats on this list, but nothing like
this Estate
nightmare. If another member disagrees
with me I have no
intention of
suing them. Enough already. My recollection is that
Gerery Nicosia
brought this fight to this list. Some of
us apparantly
love it, some of
us are sick of it (count me in the latter group.) But
nobody else has
brought his or her lawyer.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:22:01 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: SAMPAS WHO? Re: a calm request
In-Reply-To:
<199705260519.WAA07591@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
At 22.19 25/05/97
-0700, Gerry wrote:
>..., it has
nothing to do with
>>his
archieves, its a damn pissing contest/whose got the bigger balls and
>>the rest
of the nonsense. Its pure bullshit. Get off your ego trip and
>>realize THAT truth.
>>
>>
>>Lisa M.
Rabey
>Dear
Lisa, May 25, 1997
>
> I am here on the Beat-List only because
of the need to preserve Jack
>Kerouac's
archives. It has turned into a pissing
contest because that is
>what Mr.
Chaput and Mr. Anstee wanted it to become.
They have effectively
>killed the
discussion of what Sampas is doing with the archives and why, if
>he really
intends to put them into a library, he has not signed even a
>statement of
intention in 6 years. They don't want me
talking about things
>like that, so
they call me names and accuse me of various crimes, and then I
>answer them
back, etc. etc.
> Well here's my deal, Lisa, I'll just
quite answering their bullshit
>charges, and
just keep posting the truth as I see it.
Maybe some day
>someone from
"the other side" will appear to argue this thing out
>rationally,
and give us some hard facts about what Mr. Sampas is doing and
>plans to
do--rather than just calling me names and saying what a bad person
>I am.
> By the way, Paul Maher's list from the
NY Public Library shows that
>they do not
own all the versions of even one Kerouac book (published or
>unpublished). A scholar who analyzes a work needs
everything from the first
>notes thru
first second and third drafts, and then the galleys. Kerouac
>typed several
versions of every published book. The NY
Public has acquired
>only early
notebook drafts of some individual books, and they have not even
>one complete
version of Kerouac's seven most important books: ON THE ROAD,
>THE DHARMA
BUMS, DR. SAX, VISIONS OF GERARD, VISIONS OF CODY, VANITY OF
>DULUOZ, and
DESOLATION ANGELS.
> This is what we should be talking
about.
> Best, Gerry Nicosia
>
>
i think that
Gerry, il mio paesano Gerry, is right/
why i am writing
about this matter? i have under my nose
the "Rolling
Stone" issue 759 may 1,1997 pag.58 & by
pure coincidence
there is an ad like this:
You haven't
heard Jack yet.
Kerouac
kicks joy
darkness
with performances
by
Morfine
Lydia Lunch
Michael Stipe
Steven Tyler
Hunter S. Thompson
Maggie Estep
& the Spitters
Richard Kewis
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
&Helium
Jack Kerouac
& Joe Strummer
Allen Ginsberg
Eddie Vedder,
Campbell 2000
& Sadie 7
William Burroughs
& tomandandy
Juliana Hatfield
John Cale
Johnny Depp & Come
Robert Hunter
Lee Ranaldo
& Dana Colley
Anna Domino
Rob Buck & Danny Chauvin
as Hitchhiker
Patti Smith
with Thurston Moore
& Lenny Kaye
Warren Zevon
& Michael Wolff
Jim Carroll with
Lee Ranaldo, Lenny Kaye
& Anton Sanco
Matt Dillon
with Joey Altruda
Inger Lorre & Jeff Buckley
Eric Andersen
In stores April 8th
Produced by Jim Sampas
Associate Producer: Lee Ranaldo
my question is
Sampas mentioned above is
that Sampas who
Nicosia is referring in his
posts? by way of
this Sampas i immediatley got
a negative
feedback (like a pavlov dog) to such
a work despite
the excellent pedigree of performers
how much money is
rolling out ?
the works of Jack
Kerouac who
is universal
maybe free to the people not (c)
or other e.g. can
the pope damage the "Cappella
Sistina" ?
he is the owner can the concil town of
Rome destroy the
"Fontana di Trevi" ? he is the
owner BUT
everyone know that this works of the
human mankind are
really NOT owner of a single
person i hope,
i miei piu' cari
saluti a tutti,
yrs Rinaldo Rasa.
* hi! guardate
che scrivo dall'Italia, da un altro mondo! *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:37:41 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
You know, Rod, I
for one am extremely uncomfortable that you're using private
letters between
you and Nicosia to try to bolster some argument that doesn't
have a thing to
do with THE KEROUAC ARCHIVES which is the main issue here.
Bentz is right. A person of honor would not do such a thing!
You know, Rod,
Gerry Nicosia is the ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD trying to do
anything about
Kerouac's Archive. As a person who says
he cares about such
things I really
don't see why you feel it is necessary to blast him publicly
every chance you
get, often in some very shady ways.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:46:35 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Post on Archives
May 26,
1997
Paul Maher
writes:
"I was under the impression that
it [the woman from Connecticut] was
Bernice
Lemire."
Nice try, Paul. No, Bernice lives in Boston. The reason her thesis
is not available
is that someone stole it out of the Boston College archive.
Luckily I
obtained a (legal) copy of it and put the copy in my archive.
Now, if only my
archive were open, you could go over there and use it.
-- Gerry "blight to academia" Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:50:51 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Letter to Mayo
This is a
multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------A826D122C50600B0BA35406D
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
This is the
letter to Mayo. I intend to mail it
tomorrow.
I am doing this
as a fan.
Peace,
If you have a
better idea, let me know.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------A826D122C50600B0BA35406D
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="mayoltr.txt"
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May 26, 1997
Martha Mayo
Special
Collections Librarian
University of
Massachusetts, Lowell
The Mogan Center
40 French Street
Lowell, MA 01854
RE: Kerouac
Letters from Columbia University Archives
Subject: Gerry
Nicosia Archives
Dear Ms Mayo:
I am a long time
fan of Jack Kerouac. Some weeks ago, an
Internet friend of
mine suggested that I join the beat mail
list. I finally did and was quite
surprised at what I found. One of the main themes seems to be a Sampas
vs
Nicosia situation. There are included as three posts from the
Internet/www
mail list, one from Rod Anstee and two of my
replies. These posts will likely
mean little to you, as these things are out of
context and more important to
the ones involved.
However there is
one thing that you can clarify. Mr.
Anstee says to Mr. Nicosia
that "In a way I am quite surprised, in
retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to
purchase these in the first place, knowing
that many of them (originals) are
the property of other libraries." He goes on to then state that Gerry Nicosia
sold to your library a photocopy of a letter
from Jack Kerouac to Allen
Ginsberg dated April 8, 1952 even though it
has the instructions on it that the
copy is to be returned to Columbia University.
It is my
understanding that we are not allowed to view the collection or hear
the recordings deposited there. Therefore, I am writing to you to inquire
whether the items purchased by your library do
in fact include this letter and
other such items, that belong to other
Universities and are marked in such a
fashion.
If so, can you tell me what letters are so marked and whether or not
the sale and purchase is in fact legal,
illegal, questionable or what.
I am going to post
a copy of this letter to the mail list.
If you do write in
reply, please do so with the understanding
that any reply will be posted as
well.
And, if you will not reply, please tell me how I can confirm whether or
not this is in fact true.
Thank you and
with kind personal regards, I am
Sincerely,
Bentz Kirby
cc: Beat-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu
--------------A826D122C50600B0BA35406D--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:15:50 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
.... In any event, the statement I quoted from,
that was stamped upon the
1952 JK to AG
letter
> I mentioned
earlier today, surely also precludes the subsequent "donating"
>of such
material, so the point I was trying to make still stands -- the
>presence of
this class of material in the MB archive creates a problematical
>situation for
the administrating of the collection....
>
>Also, in the
matter of your attempts to place the archive in other
>institutions,
in a later letter, dated 3 May, 1987 you further wrote:
>
>"It
looks like I might be selling the whole lot to Jeffrey Weinberg of
>Sudbury Mass
-- I would rather have sold it to an institution or library, but
>NONE
(emphasis yours, actually!) of them could come up with even five
>thousand
bucks (though U of Texas had just spent seventeen MILLION on some
>weird
collection -- ,...."
>
>CHEERS, Rod
>
Dear Rod,
Have you no shame? I just get done posting the fact that none of
the Kerouac to
Ginsberg letters, legally xeroxed from Columbia, have found
their way into
the MEMORY BABE archive at Lowell, and you turn around and
tell me again
that it was illegal for me to sell or donate them to U Mass,
Lowell.
I didn't SELL OR DONATE THEM TO
LOWELL. I DIDN'T PUT THEM IN LOWELL
AT ALL. DO YOU FINALLY GET IT??? Or are you going to make five more posts
telling me I
shouldn't have put them in Lowell?
OK, now you start quoting my private
letters to you. I figured that
would come sooner
or later. I'm not going to match you by
quoting yours.
Let me just say, it was still a lie for
you to say no one wanted my
archive. In fact, every library I talked to wanted
them; but in those days
nobody had much
money to purchase them.
In fact, I did not like the idea of
selling the archive to Weinberg,
since he would
give me no guarantee about keeping the archive together, SO I
WORKED HARD TO
MAKE A LIBRARY DEAL HAPPEN. I wrote and
called Paul Marion
several times, to
see if we could get U Mass Lowell to come up with a
modicum of money;
and I gave Lowell unusually generous terms, letting them
spread the
payments over three years, with no interest charged, in order to
make the deal
possible.
For shame, Rod! Quit these attacks on me! You know why you're
doing it, and
everybody else knows too. You want to
set me on fire so
people stop
asking what Sampas is doing with the Kerouac archive.
CUT THE BULLSHIT!
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:20:17 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: second try,
The text file did
not work, so I will try html. Sorry to
duplicate this
post. Personally, I am tried of the whole thing and
intend to drop my
end of
thread. I wait to see what Lowell says.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:35:08 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Litigation Theology
The problem with
lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come so
highly and
peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's
gasoline).
That's just
MO(loch).
Thanks, but
asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is like
asking the Devil
in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy to
speak, given
either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others twisted
around their own
feet.
That's just my
theory of Litigation Theology.
Rertospectively
yrs.,
John M.
Be cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't drool.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:36:18 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Litigation Theology
John Mitchell
wrote:
> The problem
with lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come
> so
> highly and
peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's
> gasoline).
>
> That's just
MO(loch).
>
> Thanks, but
asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is
> like
> asking the
Devil in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy
> to
> speak, given
either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others
> twisted
> around their
own feet.
>
> That's just
my theory of Litigation Theology.
>
>
Rertospectively yrs.,
> John M.
> Be
cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't
drool.
ROTFLMAO, even it is aimed at me. Good post John. By the way, were
you kin to John
R. ;-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:38:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Lawyers
I heard a Spanish
proverb which I told my children yesterday:
It is better to
be a mouse in the mouth of a cat, than a man in a
lawyer's hands.
So true, but yet,
what about in the hands of a used car salesman, or a
vinyl siding
salesman, or well, whatever.
First thing let's
do, is kill all the lawyers. Paraphrase
of William
Shakespear.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:44:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: A Note to the Peacekeepers
Folks, I'm
embarrassed for you. How can you keep
silent allowing Anstee as
well as Paul
Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?
It's one thing to
want to see peace on the list. That's
fine if that's what
you really want,
but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink
at Nicosia and
you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to
Anstee telling
him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to
this!
Every person on
this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by
allowing Anstee
to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I
think Gerry has
done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in
light of Paul
Maher's vitriolic posts.
Right is right,
people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or
"his
cause".
Inaction is as
much of a statement as action is.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:53:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
May 26, 1997
To all the good
and friendly folks on the Beat-List:
(the rest can kiss me ass)
Has anyone noticed how, within a few weeks,
the debate has been
switched from why
we SHOULD be able to study Jack Kerouac (making his
archive of papers
available at a library, etc.) to WHY WE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE
TO STUDY JACK
KEROUAC? No one has been popping at
Sampas for selling off
hundreds of
pieces of Jack Kerouac's unique literary archive. Instead, they
have been popping
at me for putting my own scholarly archive, the MEMORY
BABE archive, on
deposit at U Mass, Lowell, to help people study Jack
Kerouac's life
and works.
I.e., I'm the bad guy because I tried
to make my huge body of
scholarly
research materials available to other writers and students. The
very thing I am
asking Sampas to do is now an evil thing.
Have I walked thru the Looking
Glass? Is Rod Anstee the Mad Hatter?
Hey, what's going
on here, folks?
Is it an accident that we're now
debating if Nicosia broke the law
by putting his
archive in a library, instead of asking if Sampas has a moral
right to destroy
the integrity of Jack Kerouac's archive?
I don't think
it's an
accident--not by a long shot. It's
serving someone's purpose.
Doesn't take a
genius to figure out whose.
I used to think pro basketball was a
hot sport till I got into the
business of
trying to save the Kerouac Archive. In
the space of four weeks
here I've been
accused of breaking the law by both Phil Chaput and Rod
Anstee--neither
of whom has produced a shred of evidence to substantiate
their charges.
Mr. Anstee has even had to INVENT EVIDENCE, claiming I sold
letters xeroxed
from Columbia University (which could not legally be resold)
to Lowell, when I
NEITHER SOLD NOR DONATED THOSE LETTERS TO LOWELL. I NEVER
PUT THEM IN
LOWELL AT ALL. PERIOD.
I have also been called every name in
the book--the last set of
volleys comes
from Paul Maher, Jr., another Sampas apologist,
whose claim
to fame is to
have stolen fifty rare books on the raising of silk worms from
the Mogan Center,
the same building leased by U Mass, Lowell, from which key
parts of the
MEMORY BABE archive were also stolen.
Mr. Chaput tells me to "fuck
myself" (a pleasant experience
according to
Lenny Bruce), and Mr. Maher calls me "a scourge upon serious
Kerouac
scholarship" and "a blight to academia" and "a fly on a
mountain of
shit." Coming from those two, I guess I should
figure I've been complimented.
All these folks stand to gain something
from Mr. Sampas.
Maher needs material for his new
Kerouac Quarterly, and from all
appearances,
Sampas has been giving it to him.
Anstee already purchased major items
from the Kerouac Archive for
his private
collection, which have gone up tremendously in value, and he
would doubtless
like to purchase some more. He would
also like to keep me
from proving
Gabrielle Kerouac's will a forgery, because that would force
him to surrender
the Kerouac items he purchased at fairly steep
prices--since if
the will was no good, then John Sampas would have sold
those things without
a clear title to them.
Chaput is connected with Lowell
Celebrates Kerouac!--a committee
partly financed
by John Sampas, and which, from what I hear, takes its
directions almost
exclusively from Sampas. Does Phil get
paid for his work
for LCK!, or does
he just get the percs of meeting famous people and getting
to act
important? I don't know, but you can bet
he's getting something out
of posting
information here that is spoon-fed to him by Sampas.
Chaput got almost everything he put up
here from Sampas, including
the figures from
Jan Kerouac's income tax returns, which could only have
come from
Sterling Lord, Mr. Sampas's and Ms. Kerouac's joint agent (unless
Sampas has a mole
inside the IRS). But CHAPUT WAS TOO
COWARDLY TO ANSWER MY
QUESTION ABOUT
THE SOURCE OF THOSE INCOME TAX RETURNS, BECAUSE IT EITHER
MEANT THAT MR.
SAMPAS HAD GOTTEN THEM ILLEGALLY OR ELSE STERLING LORD
(SAMPAS'S AGENT)
HAD BREACHED HIS FIDUCIARY DUTY TO JAN KEROUAC BY RELEASING
THEM. C'mon, Phil, c'mon out of hiding. Who gave you Jan's income tax
forms? Mr. Sampas or Mr. Lord? Which one of them is in trouble?
What?
Your tongue tied for a change?
Good folks, I'm really tired of all
this bullshit. I plan one more
post, later today,
to expose the absolutely FALSE CLAIM that the Jack
Kerouac Archive
is in the New York Public Library already.
Then I'm taking off for a while.
There are some good people here who can
stick up for the
truth--Jerry
Cimino, Joe Grant, and Bentz Kirby among others. I need a
break to get back
to my real work--writing books, and advocating for the
right to study
Jack Kerouac's papers, in court, which is the only place such
advocacy will
really count.
By the way, I've been accused of hiring
these folks as "mouthpieces"
for me. I've never met either Grant or Kirby. Jerry I met only twice, once
when he asked me
to come down to his bookstore in Monterey to lecture about
Kerouac, and the
other time for a few seconds in Washington Square Park in
New York, when I
gave him a free ticket to the Beat Conference Town Hall
Concert.
If they're supporting me, they're doing
it from conscience, since I
sure don't have
any money left (after 10 months of double litigation) to pay
them.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:10:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
At 06:44 PM
5/26/97 -0400, Jerry wrote:
>Inaction is
as much of a statement as action is.
Hmm, I've been
holding off from getting off this list
for a couple daze
now, due to the lack of interesting
discussion (not
saying the Estate/Archive thread isn't
interesting, just
seems to be more hot air than anything
relevant). Now, we are being accused of not speaking
up/sticking up
enuff for members on this list. I find
this
quite
interesting, considering I don't see any innocent
parties in this
debate - why should I get "scolded" by
another list
member for keeping my peace? Chances
'r',
if we did open
up, we'd get attacked, yelled at, faces
rubbed in shit,
etc. If I choose to not partake in this
insanity, please
respect that decision.
>Every person
on this list is being party to keeping
>this thread
alive by allowing Anstee to get away unscathed
>with these
ridiculous assertions.
Insects may sing
-
But the Emmet in
silence
Shows us his
arse!
~Issa~
Hey Jerry, no
hard feelings just my honest opinion.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:19:07 CDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Wes Lundburg
<wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>
Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...
Jerry wrote:
>
>Folks, I'm
embarrassed for you. How can you keep
silent allowing Anstee as
>well as Paul
Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?
>
>It's one
thing to want to see peace on the list.
That's fine if that's what
>you really
want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink
>at Nicosia
and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to
>Anstee
telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to
>this!
>
>Every person
on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by
>allowing
Anstee to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I
>think Gerry
has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in
>light of Paul
Maher's vitriolic posts.
>
>Right is
right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or
>"his
cause".
>
>Inaction is
as much of a statement as action is.
>
Hello,
Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's
a reason I never post anything
to Rod
Anstee. I still remember the crap he
threw at Ron Whitehead (not to
mention
others). He's a man with his own agenda,
and he does what strikes his
fancy... whether
anybody "puts up with it" or not.
Silence is not being party
to him. So, since my inaction is a statement, let the
statement be I won't be a
party to any of
it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my actions
or
reactions. As I posted in an open letter
to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's
made his point,
and made it well. The other guys are
just making asses out of
themselves... my
impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.
Why should I
waste my time posting to them? It won't
change anything they do.
Only reasonable
people listen to reasonable voices.
All the best,
---Wes
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:47:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alfred Lewen
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
At 06:44 PM
5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Folks, I'm
embarrassed for you. How can you keep
silent allowing Anstee as
>well as Paul
Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?
>
>It's one
thing to want to see peace on the list.
That's fine if that's what
>you really
want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink
>at Nicosia
and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to
>Anstee
telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to
>this!
>
>Every person
on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by
>allowing
Anstee to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I
>think Gerry
has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in
>light of Paul
Maher's vitriolic posts.
>
>Right is
right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or
>"his
cause".
>
>Inaction is
as much of a statement as action is.
>
>
>Jerry Cimino
>
Cimino, It is one post I made that was
"vitriolic" in tone and that is
because I am sick
of Nicosia bringing my name into things. I refuse to let
this happen. I,
unlike you or anybody else seek no support for my cause. I
have no interest
whatsoever in winning over anybody but when Nicosia drags
my name over and
over I will be more than "vitriolic." It is none the less
deserving. You
doubt my veracity? You don't even know John Sampas or the
strategy of his
archival practices. Why do you have to take sides if that is
what we are
supposed to do?
Why don't you try
thanking me for placing an ad in my quarterly without pay?
Your posts won't
win you any support, only a lost customer base.....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:32:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
Mike, no hard
feelings at all. And I appreciate your
honest opinion. And
normally I'd say
not speaking up and not taking a position is fine. But when
people say things
like what Maher said and when people assert things like
Anstee has done
it is up to the rest of us to say "you've crossed the line".
I'm not asking
you to stand up and say Nicosia is right, just that many of
his detractors
are off base in what they're saying and the way they're saying
it.
Mike, If I were
to say to you the things that have been said to Nicosia by
his
"detractors" I would expect the good people on this list to call me
to
task for it.
Right is right. Nicosia may have alienated a lot of people
with the tone of
many of his
responses, but he does not deserve to be slammed the way he has
been. He's presented us with facts. All he's been met with is rancor and
unproved
assertions.
Mike, I respectfully
submit to you not taking a position when someone is
obviously being
slandered is taking a position.
Jerry C
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:00:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alfred Lewen
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
> I have also been called every name in
the book--the last set of
>volleys comes
from Paul Maher, Jr., another Sampas apologist,
whose claim
>to fame is to
have stolen fifty rare books on the raising of silk worms from
>the Mogan
Center, the same building leased by U Mass, Lowell, from which key
>parts of the
MEMORY BABE archive were also stolen.
I never sought
fame Mr. Nicosia for my actions. That is in your warped mind.
I am remorseful
and embarrassed about the thefts I committed seven years
ago. Your
pathetic attempt to embarrass me into a response is successful.
But again, you
reap what you sow. Your such a stupid creature. You wonder
why no one likes
you over here. Your under the pretense that if you come
from Lowell you
are somehow connected. John Sampas did not contribute
anything to my
newsletter. The piece in question was contributed by the late
Jay Pendergast
(by the way a true defintion of a scholar unlike my subject
matter here). I,
unlike you, had to go through the proper channels (i.e.
John Sampas) to
acquire permission to publish.
>
> Maher needs material for his new
Kerouac Quarterly, and from all
>appearances,
Sampas has been giving it to him.
******I need
nothing for my newsletter. I have enough material for the next
four issues all
from several submissions worldwide. Again, you are wrong.
> Good folks, I'm really tired of all
this bullshit. I plan one more
>post, later
today, to expose the absolutely FALSE CLAIM that the Jack
>Kerouac
Archive is in the New York Public Library already.
******Good luck
proving that because my info was xeroxed from NYPL stationery.
> Then I'm taking off for a while.
> There are some good people here who can
stick up for the
>truth--Jerry
Cimino, Joe Grant, and Bentz Kirby among others.
********Ah yes,
your loyal following, how long will it take before you burn
those bridges?
I think I will have John Sampas autograph my
copy of Memory Babe.....
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:57:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...
Wes Lunburg
wrote:
>Why should I
waste my time posting to them. It won't
change anything they
do.
>Only
reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.
Hi Wes,
Thanks for your
candid response.
Wes, it's
precisely *because* so many people are weighing the various
psoitions and
gauging who is "right" and who is "wrong" that those of us
who
know Rod would
argue with a pineapple if it sat still long enough need to
make clear what
is really going on.
Many people,
especially if they're new to the list, read Rod's posts and
think "here
is a serious person making a serious charge" and they see a
handful of people
slugging it out and figure "each side is as bad as the
other only
worse". And when everyone keeps
silent because no one wants to
"take a
position" these insidious wars go on and on because people like Gerry
think no one is
hearing them or believing them because no one is responding
at all.
I think if
everybody on this list posted a note to Rod saying "Enough with
the ridiculous
charges! Show evidence or keep
quiet" maybe he'd think twice.
But what do we get instead? "Let's not talk about it." "This makes me
uncomfortable." "Take your little wars off-list,
boys". And what is the
result of
that? Anstee has effectively silenced
Nicosia which is exactly
what he
wants. And everyone of us on the list
has helped him do it by not
challenging him.
That's why we
should call him on the cheap shots and the non-issues. Because
silence is a
co-conspirator to the truth!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:02:30 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Not ashamed
Jerry
I am getting
tired of the theme that if we don't all rush to poor Mr.
Nicosia's defense
we are sort of like silent good Germans.
You and
Nicosia seem to
be in a minority that feel that this whole thing is a
one way
street. Go back and look through the
thread, I will turn on my
machine and there
are another seven or eight posts from GN. After days
of silence, not
doubt getting tired of listening to Nicosia's paranoid
view of the
world, eventually an Anastee, Chaput or Maher will respond,
(sometimes not
very temperatly, but there have been some very
informative posts
as well). Then GN will start again with his assertion
that everyone in
the Kerouac world but himself is a weak, excuse-making
pawn of John
Sampas, hiding their own self interest.
As far as I can
remember this
list includes Allan Ginsberg, Ann Charters, most of the
people in Lowell
and pretty much everyone else but Mr. Nicosia and
before her death
Jan Kerouac. Mr. Nicosia, of course, has
no self
interest. Then
you and Mr. Kirby wonder why not everyone is rushing to
poor Mr.
Nicosia's defense. Seems to me he does
fine on his own.
There seem to me
to be a few clear points
1. All the principles in this war have a serious
interest in and love
for Jacks work
2. They see things differently
3 This thing will be settled in the courts and
not here.
I am not ashamed
of myself. I think the list members have
on the whole
been very polite and deferential to Gerry. We have begged for him to
contribute to
real discussions of Kerouac, we have praised him for his
effort on Memory
Babe. But that doesn't mean we all are
ready to join
his crusade or
that we share his view of his opponents.
I will go back
to the good habit
I lost of just deleting anything on this thread. I
know that
whatever happens you and Attorney-at Law Kirby, Esq will be on
hand to genuflect
and hold Gerry's coat. I don't think my
mortal soul
is in danger on
this count, and if somewhere in Lowell there is a bar
with a dartboard
with GN's face on it, I would find it
pretty easy to
understand. But if the kitchen sink comes into play I
trust someone
will backchannel
me so I won't miss it.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:20:39 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alfred Lewen
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul Maher
At 04:42 PM
5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Paul, I gotta
tell ya buddy, you're showing your true colors with that last
>post of
yours. For a guy who three days ago said
he'd had enough and even
>sent a
message saying "unsubscribe" you sure have a whole lot to say about
>nothing.
>
>Paul, some of
us were hoping to keep the *debate* at a reasonable level
>during the
cease fire of the Memorial Day weekend.
Obviously you don't want
>to do your
part as evidenced by the general nastiness of your tone.
>
"Scholar?" Paul, I hardly
think so given the level to which you have sunk
>here.
****Whatever,
your assessment of my scholarship matters nothing to me. I
hardly think that
you are going to be on my Master's thesis committee.
>
>Say something
useful, Paul, instead of general namecalling!
I asked you a
>week ago why
you thought Gabrielle's signature was real as opposed to faked
>since you're
one of the few people on the list to have actually seen the
>will. Why can't you answer questions put to you?
Because I am not
required to.
I have seen the
will yes. I have also seen many documents (contracts for
foreign
publication rights etc. signed by Gabrielle Kerouac in the early
1970's)signed
after the will which are almost 100% the same. The only slight
change is the way
the "c"
at the end of Kerouac trails off. This is given to her invalid
state. On this
alone I came to my conclusion. There were other documents
that sealed my
decision that the will/forgery claim is a fraud. For
instance, what
made the signature look funny to Ms. Jan Kerouac anyways?
What is so funny
about the way an old woman who suffered a stroke signs her
name? Were they
humoring her disability? I mean...my grandmother writes me
letters and the
sig looks a little shaky but I have no reason to believe
it's
"funny." You are all sorely misled and someday the shadiness of the
situation will
brighten and the real "true colors" will be revealed. And by
the way I came
back on the list to post about my friend Jay Pendergast's
death who knew
Jack in the 1960's.. Don't flatter yourself thinking I wanted
to respond to
you. Signed vitriolicly, Paul...
>Jerry Cimino
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:07:34 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: New York Public Library (final post, this
time I mean it)
To all the good
and friendly folks on the Beat-List:
My final post; I'm turning in my
bullshit shovel.
But I want to clear up this lingering
myth--or more accurately,
cruel hoax--about
the Kerouac Archive being in the New York Public Library.
I work from the List printed by Paul
Maher, which purports to be the
latest list of
the New York Public Library's Kerouac holdings (I have a list
given me by NYPL
librarian Rodney Phillips two years ago, which has only a
few less things
on it). Not much has changed in two
years.
Let's start by getting one thing
straight: A COLLECTION IS NOT AN
ARCHIVE, and vice
versa.
The New York Public Library has a
Kerouac/Beat collection, which
they have been
building for years, by buying items from many different
people, including
many dealers.
Univ. of Texas, Austin, the Bancroft
Library (Berkeley), and
Stanford, among
others, also have Kerouac/Beat collections.
Even Rod Anstee has a Kerouac/Beat
collection. From what I have
seen, having
visited his house, Mr. Anstee's collection is bigger in sheer
bulk than the
Kerouac collection at the New York Public Library. Jan
Kerouac and I had
a private session at the NYPL, had the whole Kerouac
collection thrust
out on a desk before us, and it didn't take up much space.
What are Jack Kerouac's ten most important
published books?
I'm a Kerouac biographer, so let me
take a stab at this. I
nominate, in no
particular order:
1) ON THE ROAD
2) THE DHARMA BUMS
3) DR. SAX
4) THE SUBTERRANEANS
5) VISIONS OF GERARD
6) VISIONS OF CODY
7) VANITY OF DULUOZ
8) BIG SUR
9) DESOLATION ANGELS
10) MEXICO CITY BLUES
What does the New York Public Library
have of each of these?
1) ON THE ROAD was typed on a long
scroll of Japanese art paper. It
was retyped
several times, with major revisions. It
was worked over in
galleys. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS
MATERIAL, AND HAS
NEVER MADE ANY OF
THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
2) THE DHARMA BUMS was typed on a
scroll of teletype paper, retyped
several times,
reworked, and worked over extensively in galleys. THE NEW
YORK PUBLIC
LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF
THIS MATERIAL
AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
3) DR. SAX was written in pencil
notebooks; it was typed up; it was
worked over
editorially by Malcolm Cowley; there are presumably also galleys
for it. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS
MATERIAL, AND HAS
NEVER MADE ANY OF
THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY. They
do list the
presence of some
"notes for Dr. Sax" in their collection.
4) THE SUBTERRANEANS WAS TYPED ON A
ROLL OF TELETYPE PAPER, RETYPED
ON REGULAR PAGES
(which Jeffrey Weinberg saw, and says they are
"crumbling"),
and revised extensively in galleys to prevent libel suits from
Alene Lee (Mardou
Fox). THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS
NONE OF THIS
MATERIAL, AND HAS
NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
5) VISIONS OF GERARD WAS WRITTEN IN
PENCIL NOTEBOOKS AND RETYPED ON
TO REGULAR
PAGES. I assume there were galleys but
don't know about the
amount of
revision. Suspect less revision because
Kerouac considered this a
"holy
book." THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY
OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND
HAS NEVER MADE
ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
6) VISIONS OF CODY was written in
pencil notebooks and also sections
of it were
typed. Some of it was drafted in letters
Kerouac wrote to his
friends (like the
letter to John Clellon Holmes which Mr. Anstee purchased
for his own
collection). It was retyped several
times, as the work
underwent the
editorial scrutiny of a number of people: Carl Solomon, Allen
Ginsberg, Malcolm
Cowley, et al. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC
LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF
THIS MATERIAL,
AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
7) VANITY OF DULUOZ was typed on a
scroll of teletype paper and then
retyped on to
regular pages. Kerouac incorporated many
of his earlier
unpublished
writings and breastpocket notebook passages into the text. I do
not know the
extent of editorial changes. One would
assume there were, at
the very least,
marked galley proofs. THE NEW YORK
PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE
OF THIS MATERIAL,
AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
8) BIG SUR was typed on a scroll of
teletype paper and then retyped
on to regular
pages. Kerouac used many breastpocket
notebooks for material,
which he
incorporated into the text. I assume
there were at least marked
galleys. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS
MATERIAL, AND HAS
NEVER MADE ANY OF
THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
9) DESOLATION ANGELS was both written
in notebooks and typed over a
period of several
years. It was then retyped on to regular
paper. Extent
of editorial
changes unknown. One assumes marked
galleys. THE NEW YORK
PUBLIC LIBRARY
HAS THE NOTEBOOKS TO SECTION 2, "PASSING THROUGH," WHICH IS
ONLY ABOUT
ONE-THIRD OF THE ENTIRE TEXT. IT HAS NO
ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT FOR
THE REMAINING
TWO-THIRDS OF THE TEXT, AND NO RETYPED PAGES FOR ANY OF THE
TEXT. NO GALLEYS.
THE PENCIL NOTEBOOKS FOR SECTION 2 ARE AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
10) MEXICO CITY BLUES was written in
pencil notebooks and later
retyped. There was doubtless more than one typescript,
as this manuscript
circulated among
many different writers in both California and New York.
There were
certainly marked galleys, as this was a tough book to type-set
with lots of
neologisms and weird typography. THE NEW
YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY
OWNS THE PENCIL
NOTEBOOKS AND ONE TYPESCRIPT. THEY DO
NOT HAVE ALL THE
TYPESCRIPTS, AND
THEY DO NOT HAVE THE GALLEYS. THE
NOTEBOOKS AND
TYPESCRIPTS THEY
HAVE ARE AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.
So, the New York Public Library lacks
any paper trail for 8 of
Kerouac's 10 most
important published books; it has a very incomplete paper
trail for the 9th
book; and a somewhat better (but by no means complete)
paper trail for
the 10th. And if the MEXICO CITY BLUES
manuscript is the
completest, it is
rather curious to thank Mr. Sampas for it, since he was
preparing to sell
it to a private collector (according to Jeffrey Weinberg)
and--though
Weinberg is not completely sure--probably did sell it to a
private
collector, before it was resold to the NYPL.
WHAT ABOUT MAGGIE CASSIDY? A FINE NOVEL, IF NOT AMONG THE GREATS.
THE NEW YORK
PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS ONLY 45 pages in pencil, an UNUSED SECTION
OF
MANUSCRIPT. IT HAS NO PARTS OF THE
ACTUAL MANUSCRIPT, NOR THE RETYPED
VERSION, NOR THE
GALLEYS.
The NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY also has NO
TRACE AT ALL OF MANY OF
KEROUAC'S VERY
IMPORTANT UNPUBLISHED BOOKS: THE SEA IS MY BROTHER, AND THE
HIPPOS WERE
BOILED IN THEIR TANKS!, MEMORY BABE, SECRET MULLINGS OF BILL,
VISIONS OF
LUCIEN, AND AN UNTITLED NOVEL ABOUT NICKY'S BAR IN LOWELL, etc.
IT HAS NO TRACE OFMANUSCRIPT FOR MANY
OF KEROUAC'S IMPORTANT
ARTICLES: THE
ORIGINS OF THE BEAT GENERATION; CITYCitycity; THE ESCAPADE
MAGAZINE PIECES,
ETC.
It has a lot of Kerouac's correspondence
with the Sampas family and
a few other
letters (MANY OF WHICH ARE XEROXED COPIES, ACCORDING TO THE LIST
LIBRARIAN RODNEY
PHILLIPS GAVE ME), but almost none of Kerouac's
correspondence
(carbon copies and drafts of his own letters, and letters
sent him) from
the HUNDREDS OF IMPORTANT WRITERS AND ARTISTS WITH WHOM
KEROUAC
CORRESPONDED.
IT DOES NOT HAVE THE HUNDREDS OF
FIVE-CENT BREAST-POCKET NOTEBOOKS
HE CARRIED IN HIS
SHIRT EVERY DAY, TO "SKETCH" THE THINGS HE SAW AND HEARD
ON A DAILY BASIS,
MOST OF WHICH NEVER FOUND THEIR WAY INTO ANY BOOK.
IT HAS NONE OF HIS BOYHOOD SELF-PRINTED
COMIC BOOKS AND NEWSPAPERS
AND OTHER
JUVENILE WRITINGS.
IT DOES NOT HAVE HIS SELF-CREATED HORSE
RACE AND BASEBALL GAMES.
IT HAS NONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS.
IT HAS NONE OF HIS MANY PAINTINGS AND
DRAWINGS
IT HAS NONE OF HIS PRIVATE SCRAPBOOKS
OF NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS,
CONCERNING HIS
SPORTS HEROICS AND BOOK REVIEWS.
IT HAS NONE OF HIS PERSONAL PAPERS,
REPORT CARDS, JOB APPLICATIONS,
PASSPORTS,
LAWSUIT PAPERS FOR CHILD SUPPORT, etc. etc.
IT HAS NONE OF THE HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF
TAPE RECORDINGS KEROUAC MADE.
IT HAS NONE OF HIS PERSONAL BOOKS, HIS
PRIVATE LIBRARY.
You're going to tell me that the Jack
Kerouac Archive is in the New
York Public
Library??? Come again.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:14:48 +0100
Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: uneducated & illinformed
quasi-estate-post
after watching
several hundred estate postings go rolling by under the
delete-key, I
finally submit one myself. It's a slippery slope, they
say... :
first of all, I
like this thread, slanging matches & all. If nothing else,
it's probably
better that these things are thrashed out in public if
they're going to
be thrashed out at all. Moving it offlist wouldn't really
be true. I'm not
a car crash voyeur, but I like hearing what people have
to say...
relevant, polite, politic, political, friendly, supportive,
abusive,
warmongering, inane, whatever. I've learned a lot from all those
various
varieties.
also, I'm tending
towards the Gerry Nicosia side, albeit from a totally
uneducated point
of view. It's easy to get tied into a role in this kind
of discussion...
so there's Jerry & Gerry & misc. vs Rod & Phil & whoever
and it really
seems to get personal very easily, out of nobody's intention
& everybody's
fault. Case in point being Paul M... side-issues become the
main deal &
it's like being there while two opposing tables of lairily
drunk folks tilt
slowly but inexorably towards a fairly inefficient
fistfight.
M'self, I think
terms like "Sampas apologist" are a little too out
there... I'm not
sure that anyone knows anything much about the *other
side* (tones of
impending doom intended to be slightly ironic, before I
get pulverised)
& further, I think it's a little too easy to identify with
your opinions
until (point comin up soon, wait for it...) BY THIS POINT,
*EVERYONE* IS IN
THE POSITION OF THINKING THEY'RE DEFENDING THEMSELVES
AGAINST SOME
DEEPLY PERSONAL ATTACK...
I'm not trying to
sound like a selfstyled diplomat. Honest. I want
everyone to keep
speaking their minds... because that's the only way
anything gets
resolved, in the long run. The fact that it may take about
twenty years this
way is a minus, but perhaps endurable. It's entertaining
when people
majorly abuse others personally, but that probably slows
things down as
well...
Anyway, this'll
do for now. Seriously, I think Gerry Nicosia is an
inestimable
addition to the list, & things might be more mellow if
*everyone* just
stopped escalating things by getting personal... (of
course, if
anybody so much as raises an eyebrow at *anything* I've said in
this post I'll
find out where you live & have your fucking legs broken...)
(nb. that was a
joke)
Well, whatever.
Keep going, everyone.
Olly Ruff.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Survival of
the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
considered the
idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
Could the Doctor
have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
_______________________________________________________________________________
or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
skink@imrryr.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:18:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Musing
My archive is
bigger than your archive
You show me your
archive and I'll show you mine.
How may
archivists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
(apparently a
lot, and even more if the lightbulb is xeroxed, and yet
more if there is
a lawyer present)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:40:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alfred Lewen
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: New York Public Library (final post,
this time I mean it)
Frpm what I
gathered, I never purported to type up a list of the Kerouac
archives...it was
a list of the things the Estate has either given as a gift
or sold to the
NYPL. Nicosia what's your point? Are you saying if it isn't
there it's sold?
What if he had it in safe deposit in Lowell? What business
of it is yours or
anybody's? It belongs to the family in principle and
legally. Even I,
who longs to see it as much as anybody else can understand
that. And there
is nothing xeroxed in there. Once again you are wrong.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:35:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Paul Maher
At 08:20 PM
5/26/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:
>I have seen
the will yes. I have also seen many documents
>(contracts
for foreign publication rights etc. signed by
>Gabrielle
Kerouac in the early 1970's)signed after the will
>which are
almost 100% the same. The only slight change is the
>way the
"c" at the end of Kerouac trails off. This is given to her
>invalid
state. On this alone I came to my conclusion. There
>were other
documents that sealed my decision that the
>will/forgery
claim is a fraud. For instance, what made the
>signature
look funny to Ms. Jan Kerouac anyways?
Paul,
Hmm, if you are
not a specialist in forensic science how can
you make this
judgement w/o any empirical data? This
goes for Jan's
challenge as well. I'm not sure if
anyone has
looked at said
signature, but by backing up your claim with
questioning Jan's
expertise on this matter, I believe you've
discredited your
own theory. What makes your theory hold
water? Is it that Gabrielle Kerouac was in an
"invalid state?"
Sounds like
hearsay to me. Show me the $ Paul!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:38:33 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 26 May 1997 10:49:33 -0400
from <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Doesn't the
notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:00:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul Maher
>
>Hmm, if you
are not a specialist in forensic science how can
>you make this
judgement w/o any empirical data? This
>goes for
Jan's challenge as well. I'm not sure if
anyone has
>looked at
said signature, but by backing up your claim with
>questioning
Jan's expertise on this matter, I believe you've
>discredited
your own theory. What makes your theory
hold
>water? Is it that Gabrielle Kerouac was in an
"invalid state?"
>Sounds like
hearsay to me. Show me the $ Paul!!
>
>Mike, i had
meant that the will being compared to G. Kerouac's hand writ
specimen before
her stroke is hardly proof or evidence. I never once said
mine was expert
testimony. i was asked so I answered and made an opinion.
Take it for what
it is worth. P.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:47:27 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: She-Ra <jennie42@ASU.EDU>
Subject: questions about Jack's death
While reading
Dharma Bums yesterday a good question happened into my
mind... Does
anyone think that one of the forces contributing to Jack's
alcoholism and
death was the internal conflict between his Buddhist and
Catholic
beliefs? I get the feeling that in his
old (not really, but
lack of better
word) age he was turning against all that he had done with
his life (shown
in his dislike for the pranksters and such).. perhaps he
was feeling
guilty, thus drank to lose feelings of guilt, and purposely
(as in leaving
los vegas) drank himself to death? a slow suicide? I'm
just wondering,
perhaps someone can help me out with this one?
jennie
******
jennie42@asu.edu ******
#28 There is no sin-
I know perfectly well
where I am
-Jack Kerouac
WE ARE SEARCHING
FOR RATIONAL
REASONS
FOR BELIEVING
IN THE ABSURD
-Harold Norse (from the poem
"Believing in the Absurd")
---------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:08:15 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
In-Reply-To:
<970526184408_1955964541@emout09.mail.aol.com>
On Mon, 26 May
1997, Jerry Cimino wrote:
> Folks, I'm
embarrassed for you. How can you keep
silent allowing Anstee as
> well as Paul
Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?
>
> It's one
thing to want to see peace on the list.
That's fine if that's what
> you really
want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink
> at Nicosia
and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to
> Anstee
telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to
> this!
>
> Every person
on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by
> all
owing Anstee to
get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I
> think Gerry
has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in
> light of
Paul Maher's vitriolic posts.
>
> Right is
right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or
> "his
cause".
>
> Inaction is
as much of a statement as action is.
>
>
> Jerry Cimino
>
dear jerry and
all: i applaud the above--but remember that not all have
been silent about
such cheapjack shots at gerry; i posted yesterday (or
so) much the
same--just got a couple of lame "Buuuuuuut" messages in
response. go
ahead, in the spirit of levi and others, and "hold [nicosia]
to a higher
standard" because he is a world-class k. scholar. this is,
btw, the gist of
levi's post re: my anger at cheap shots gerry's way.
baloney, rancid
baloney. nobody should be held to a higher standard than
anybody else,
scholar or not. there's shit and then there's shit? nah,
just shit. it all
has the same low barnyard whiff.
posting personal
letters is waaaay out of line; yada yada yada--i'd like
to think jack and
the twisted living ghost of bill b. will very soon loom
up out of the red
darkness and rip the lungs out of the right (and wrong)
swine who scrunch
down in the muddy shadows of the whole $$$$$ For
Kerouac Gig! and
before some mutant includes nicosia as a $$$ For Kerouac
Guy, note that
$7500 bucks ain't blood gravey in anyone's book. for
chrise rake, he
was sellin' his own bio's archive--not peddling k's goods!
one day we'll all
have to meet to drink bombs in a nether lowell or
tangiers--and the
monsters will be sorted out and go directly to
shitholes in the
deepest circles of dante's condo complex.
love and fuses,
steve
Steve R. Smith
Graduate Teaching
Assistant
Department of
English
Portland State
University
Box 751 Portland,
OR 97207
503-725-3556
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:12:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: SAMPAS WHO? Re: a calm request
rinaldo,
First off, please don't be out off by
the Sampas name on 'kicks joy
darkness'. the CD
is well worth getting. Jim is the son of Stella's brother
Mike - john
Sampas is his uncle.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:20:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Not Ashamed/Musing
James,
I don't agree
with a lot of what you say in your "not ashamed post" and I'm
glad YOU used the
"Good German" analogy and not me as I don't want to be
acused of calling
anyone a Nazi/"Adolph Hitler apologist" or anything else.
And I laughed out loud w/regard to your
lightbulb joke!
James, I'm not a
Nicosia groupie and I certainly don't genuflect at his
alter. Quite frankly I think Gerry is off base on
certain things. I wish he
wouldn't accuse
everybody who's ever heard of John Sampas as being in bed
with him. I think that's counter-productive and hurts
his cause and
alienates people
who could otherwise be his allies.
The point though,
James, is Nicosia is inextricably intertwined with the
cause of Saving
Jack's Archives. You and many others
obviously don't think
that is a good
thing, but I do and Nicosia is the only person doing anything
about it. He's leading the charge! I don't see anybody else raising their
hand to do
it. I certainly couldn't do it even if I
wanted to try. And I
don't think there
is one other person out there who could.
With Jan dead
there is no one
else. Nicosia is it, whether anyone
(including him!) likes
it or not.
And you'll note,
James, I didn't ask anyone to stand up for Nicosia. I asked
people to put Rod
in his place with regard to making false and/or
unsubstantiated
claims. There is a difference.
Like I said I
don't agree with everything Gerry says or does but I do think
he's right to try
to save Jack's Archives.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:19:08 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Beat-l
Enough is
enough. Sure, the Kerouac Estate is meat
for discussion but
this listdoes NOT
exist for listmembers to curse at each other and
insult one
another personally. If you want to do
this, I'll say again,
TAKE IT OFF THE
LIST!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:33:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
Steve/Whisky,
I noted your
response to Levi' post the other day. I
was heartened to see
it, but posts
like yours have been few and far between as we all know.
Frankly, I was
also heartened to see Levi's post as well.
I thought it was a
very well
reasoned and impassioned plea to Gerry to recognize people Gerry
percieves as
enemies aren't necessarily out to hurt him.
I personally think
that is the case
with both Levi and Atilla. Just because
Dharma Beat accepts
an ad from
Viking/Penguin does not mean Atilla is in bed w/Sampas as Gerry
seems to
think. I can say that from my
perspective, but I can also
understand
Gerry's perspective as well.
When my wife and
I owned our coffeehouse/bookstore and were losing our shirts
it was very easy
for us to view our regular customers who walked in with a B.
Dalton's bag full
of books or a Starbuck's cup of coffee as "disloyal" who
didn't give a
damn about us and our business. We
learned very quickly that
people will
always do what is in their own best interest.
We all do that.
And if somebody could save a few bucks by
going to B. Dalton or if
Starbuck's
happened to be closer to where they were when they got the urge
for a cup of
coffee, they weren't doing anything against us... they were just
doing what they
thought was best for them.
And that's how I
view Atilla taking advertising from Viking.
That doesn't
have to make him
Gerry's enemy. But take it from one who
knows, when you're
in the heat of
battle, anyone who isn't shooting in the same direction as you
is the
enemy! Maybe it shouldn't be that way,
but it's human nature that it
is.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:43:08 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Not Ashamed/Musing
Jerry Cimino
wrote:
>
> James,
>
> I don't
agree with a lot of what you say in your "not ashamed post" and I'm
> glad YOU
used the "Good German" analogy and not me as I don't want to be
> acused of
calling anyone a Nazi/"Adolph Hitler apologist" or anything else.
> And I laughed out loud w/regard to your lightbulb
joke!
>
> James, I'm
not a Nicosia groupie and I certainly don't genuflect at his
> alter. Quite frankly I think Gerry is off base on
certain things. I wish he
> wouldn't
accuse everybody who's ever heard of John Sampas as being in bed
> with
him. I think that's counter-productive
and hurts his cause and
> alienates
people who could otherwise be his allies.
>
> The point
though, James, is Nicosia is inextricably intertwined with the
> cause of
Saving Jack's Archives. You and many
others obviously don't think
> that is a
good thing, but I do and Nicosia is the only person doing anything
> about
it. He's leading the charge! I don't see anybody else raising their
> hand to do
it. I certainly couldn't do it even if I
wanted to try. And I
> don't think
there is one other person out there who could.
With Jan dead
> there is no
one else. Nicosia is it, whether anyone
(including him!) likes
> it or not.
>
> And you'll
note, James, I didn't ask anyone to stand up for Nicosia. I asked
> people to
put Rod in his place with regard to making false and/or
>
unsubstantiated claims. There is a
difference.
>
> Like I said
I don't agree with everything Gerry says or does but I do think
> he's right
to try to save Jack's Archives.
>
> Jerry Cimino
Jerry,
I agree with you
more than you think. I think the real
problem is that
Gerry is so damn
conspiracy driven that he fatally hurts his own cause.
I've always said,
he may well be right, but he loses all credibity with
me by the
"in bed" with SAmpas think.
Let him win in court. He isn't
going to court
against Anastee or Maher but the Sampas family.
l hope
there is an
archive, but I doubt it will happen, because as I said
earlier that as
long as Sampas and Lash control 2/3's I don't see how
anyone will be
able to work with Nicosia. It would have
to be his way
or the
highway. Maybe I read him wrong, but he
certainly doesn't come
off as capable of
compromising with the Sampas people at all.
In his last
backchannel to me he was explaining to me how essentially he
is responsible
for everything Ann Charters knows about Jack.
She speaks
respectfully of
him, he can't mention her without remembering that she
didn't take his
side with Jan. Maybe Jan was an angel,
or maybe she was
hard to deal
with--I don't know, but it seems to me that Ann's failure
to join Jan's
cause doesn't just wipe out her biographical and editing
achievements.
Frankly, I keep
vowing to shut up and only post things like Mitchell's.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:51:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
In a message
dated 97-05-26 14:03:18 EDT, you write:
> NONE OF THE XEROXES I SOLD TO LOWELL
WERE THE PROPERTY OF OTHER
LIBRARIES. GOT THAT?
>
Sorry, I'm still
confused here Gerry. Are you saying that amongst the stuff
you transferred
to the library in Lowell in 1987, there was absolutely no
material that was
the property of other libraries, or are you saying that the
part you
"sold" was free of this class of material, and that any material of
this kind was
simply "donated" instead. You know that there WAS material of
this sort in the
archive, or at least back then you indicated as such -- some
people seem to
get upset when I quote directly from your letters from 1987,
so without
quoting directly this time, I can refer to another letter in which
you specifically
mentioned, for example, that your copies of the JK/Cowley
letters had been
transferred to Lowell amongst the rest of the archive. As
you know, that
material (in original form) has a home in the Newberry
Library. Are you
saying now that the Cowley letter (xeroxes) were never
transferred? The
date on the letter I'm not going to quote from is 25
October, 1987.
Was your statement about them in that letter wrong?
Unfortunately we
weren't discussing the JK/AG correspondence at the time, so
I have no
contemporary references to them.
CHEERS Rod (Yes,
soccer went well, thanks.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:47:30 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: 10 most important
1) ON THE ROAD
2) THE DHARMA BUMS
3) DR. SAX
4) THE SUBTERRANEANS
5) VISIONS OF GERARD
6) VISIONS OF CODY
7) VANITY OF DULUOZ
8) BIG SUR
9) DESOLATION ANGELS
10) MEXICO CITY BLUES
I like Satori
(sp?) in Paris.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:50:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: New York Public Library (final post,
this time I mean it)
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
> <snip the
whole thing>
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
Damn, that was an
informative post, whatever the motivation, Gerry, I
hope you will not
unsubscribe. I would like to know
more. Just get a
thicker
skin. Please.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:00:17 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Letter to Mayo
Bentz,
Gerry has already pointed out that it
was not Mayo who negotiated
the purchase from
Gerry.
* "In a way
I am quite surprised, in retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to
* purchase these
in the first place, knowing that many of them (originals) are
* the property of
other libraries."
I believe Gerry has intimated -
although Rod pushed the point in a
leter post - that
the Columbia letter was not part of the purchase/donation.
* He goes on to then state that Gerry Nicosia
* sold to your
library a photocopy of a letter from Jack Kerouac to Allen
* Ginsberg dated
April 8, 1952 even though it has the instructions on it
that the
* copy is to be
returned to Columbia University.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:56:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick
Bill Gargan
wrote:
> Doesn't the
notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?
I don't know about copyright law and am asking
for those who do to
enlighten us.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:01:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Post on Archives
In a message
dated 97-05-26 15:25:25 EDT, you write:
>" But no
xerox that was owned by another library was
>included in
the body of material that was finally transferred to U Mass,
>Lowell.
>
Ah, since he makes this statement with crystal
clarity, why pussyfoot
around!? Here's
what Gerry wrote to me 25 October, 1987:
"I didn't
get time to go through the Cowley letters which are now on deposit
in Lowell, at the
U. of Lowell, but will remain a locked collection till
Martha Mayo gets
it all catalogued."
I fear it's a
contradiction, our Gerry.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:06:46 -0700
Reply-To: david@cyberwarecom.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David McClusky <david@CYBERWARECOM.COM>
Organization:
CyberWare Communications (http://www.cyberwarecom.com)
Subject: Beat Generation Essay
Hey everyone..
I have posted a
very rough draft (uncompleted) on an essay I am writing
on the Beat
Generation for my high school english class.
If anyone
wants to take a
look at it and give me their thoughts thanks. (remember,
high school
english.)
The address is
http://www.cyberwarecom.com/david/beatgen.htm
Thanks!
David McClusky
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:15:32 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Calling Bill Gargan
May 26,
1997
Did anyone pick up on the fact that Rod
Anstee, after accusing me of
selling stolen
items, proceeded to print one of my private letters on the
internet (the
equivalent of publishing it), in complete violation of my own
copyright in my
unpublished writings (which includes my correspondence)?
I.e., Mr. Anstee has committed the
crime of copyright infringement
right in front of
all your eyes.
I call on Bill Gargan to stop this kind
of rogue activity
immediately, and
if Mr. Anstee will not desist from such criminal behavior,
to cut off his
Beat-List privileges.
Thank you.
Yours truly,
Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:37:50 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Mr. Anstee Continues Breaking the Law
Comments: cc:
WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
To Rod Anstee: May 26, 1997
You are breaking the law (copyright
infringement) by printing my
private,
unpublished letters on the Beat-List. If
this continues, I will
have to take
legal action against both you and the Beat-List.
I therefore call upon Mr. Bill Gargan
to suspend Mr. Anstee's
Beat-List
privileges at once, as he refuses to stop this rogue behavior.
Mr. Anstee has no knowledge of my
relationship with the Newberry
Library or any
other library, under what conditions and restrictions copies
were made,
etc. He nevertheless continues to throw
aspersions at me,
insinuating that
I have somehow sold stolen materials, which is a clear
defamation of my
character.
I repudiate all his accusations, and
will hold him accountable for
every one of
them.
Yours truly,
Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:41:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
Steve Smith
a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> one day
we'll all have to meet to drink bombs in a nether lowell or
>
tangiers--and the monsters will be sorted out and go directly to
> shitholes in
the deepest circles of dante's condo complex.
>
please make sure
i get invited to this ....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:45:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Rod Is Off Base!
Rod,
Why do you insist
on making the MEMORY BABE Archive the issue, here?
The issue is
Jack's Archives, not Nicosia's.
Jack Kerouac is
the author we're concerned about here.
Why do you insist on
making Nicosia
the issue.
Rod, I can't tell
you how disillusioned I am with you that you would make
private
correspondance with Gerry public to support your position here. You
are a very low
human being indeed. I won't ever trust
another word you say.
This is dispicable!
TO EVERYONE ELSE
ON THE BEAT-L: Here's what you get for
keeping silent. If
any of you have
ever sent Anstee a letter I'd be looking over what you wrote
if I were you!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:55:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Mr. Anstee Continues Breaking the Law
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> To Rod
Anstee: May 26, 1997
>
> You are breaking the law (copyright
infringement) by printing my
> private,
unpublished letters on the Beat-List. If
this continues, I will
> have to take
legal action against both you and the Beat-List.
> I therefore call upon Mr. Bill Gargan
to suspend Mr. Anstee's
> Beat-List
privileges at once, as he refuses to stop this rogue behavior.
> Mr. Anstee has no knowledge of my
relationship with the Newberry
> Library or
any other library, under what conditions and restrictions copies
> were made,
etc. He nevertheless continues to throw
aspersions at me,
> insinuating
that I have somehow sold stolen materials, which is a clear
> defamation
of my character.
> I repudiate all his accusations, and
will hold him accountable for
> every one of
them.
> Yours truly,
> Gerald Nicosia
it has been years
since I read anything concerning copyright law.
i
primarily was
concerned with fair use in relation to montage art. i
must admit to
skimming much of Nimmer's duller moments on other
subjects. it seems doubtful to me that the "recipient"
of a letter does
not have equal
liberty to use the material as s/he sees fit.
i have no
legal library at
my disposal currently to test this doubt.
if you're
familiar with
particular copyright laws which have been violated, it
would help those
of us who observe this foray if you would point to them
in your public
accusations. i hope that others have
caught the grand
irony in your
publicly accusing others of crimes after having chastised
others for
self-same action merely days ago.
i hope you have a
pleasant evening. i'm off to peruse more
of Dharma
Lions. Today's postings have soiled my eyes to
reading anything further
about Jack which
is a shame i suppose.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:09:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
RACE --- wrote:
> Steve Smith
a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> > one day
we'll all have to meet to drink bombs in a nether lowell or
> >
tangiers--and the monsters will be sorted out and go directly to
> >
shitholes in the deepest circles of dante's condo complex.
> >
>
> please make
sure i get invited to this ....
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
David:
I think I would
prefer to watch from a safe distance.
:-)
What about
trading for Duncan ooopppsss, wrong
list.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:01:38 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> thinking
about kerouac
> or,
> spontaneous
sidewalk
>
> what is it
with me, lately?
> i keep
buying books.
> i'm poor
> but would rather go
hungry
> than be hungry
for words
> i want to be
a writer.
> i read lots of writers
> lots of poetry
> lots of prose
> lots
of writers writing about writing
>
and critics who write about
> them,
> until i
get to feeling like the quaker oats man
> who is pictured on the label
> holding another quaker
box
>
with a little
>
quaker man, holding,
> you know?
> i mean, when
does he ever eat the oatmeal?
> i throw over
my captors,
>
selfconsciouness and fear,
> and break
free
> and up from
the depths of my
> inarticulate
soul
> the voices
spoke to me of kerouac,
> and
> word
sketches writ down in the moment.
>
> now i stop
all thought,
> and,
suddenly,
> finally !
> i am left with IT!
> jack 's
> spontaneous prose
> writ in humble
small pad
> full
of word sketches
> novels
> poetry
>
> prose
> and
> emboldened,
> out i go,
tiny pad in pocket
> looking
avidly for
> the perfect
> poetic
moment
> to capture
in words,
> a
stupenousllyspontaenously
> experience
of IT
>
> and so, i go, casting
> eyes to sky
> and down to
> earth
> &
cement.
>
> i walk quite
a bit,
> and then
further.
> no
epiphanies.
> my pad
begins to sweat.
>
> i stop.
> and then i
look about.
> i am
standing
> in the midst
> of a cheery
> hop scotch
> scrawled in
blue chalk.
>
> i had my
note pad ready
> to capture
it all,
> a fine lot
of writing
> to be done in the moment,
> a frenzy of scribbling
> of making it new,
> until, quite
suddenly,
> despite lingering winter chill
> i stood
enveloped in the warmth of
>
twilight days
> of summer.
> mothers'
voices on the breeze
> giving last
call for play
> with
> just
> one
> more
> game
> of hop scotch,
> marbles, jumprope
> kick the can
... (allly ally outs in free.....
> voices called out
> in my mind)
>
> on a sunlit
afternoon this spring
> i stood in
twilight summer haze
> feeling once
again
> dirty hands
and sticky faces,
> bare feet on
dewy grass...
> touch
> taste
> sight
> sounds
> alive!
>
> i stood before the chalked outlines
> scribbling
furiously.
> ithen dashed
off
> to read my
pocket ful of
> sketched
> impressions,
> literary
> allusions,
> and all
things real with potency.
>
> yes, i feel like
a real poet now.
>
> as i
> sit down
excitedly
> to
transcribe my notes
> and fashion a
pome.
> i open my
notebook :
> no words at
all,
> only the
sketch
> of hopscotch blocks,
> blue chalk
and all.
>
> @mc/517/97
> revised
5/26/97
Thanks for an
excellent poem and one of the two out of 50 posts that did
not involve
name-calling or legal action. Tomorrow,
Tuesday, let's have
everyone on the
list post one poem, story, or idea about beat literature.
I bet there are about 200 people out there
that want to do just that.
I'll start myself
first thing in the morning.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:16:52 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
H
H H
H
H
A
H
H
H H
H
{8^>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:20:41 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.
Diane Carter
wrote:
> <snip
absolutely sweet marie>
>
> Thanks for
an excellent poem and one of the two out of 50 posts that
> did
> not involve
name-calling or legal action. Tomorrow,
Tuesday, let's
> have
> everyone on
the list post one poem, story, or idea about beat
> literature.
> I bet there are about 200 people out there
that want to do just that.
>
> I'll start
myself first thing in the morning.
Diane,
I am down with
that.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:28:26 -0400
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: questions about Jack's death
At 05:47 PM
5/26/97 -0700, jennie wrote:
>While reading
Dharma Bums yesterday a good question
>happened into
my mind... Does anyone think that one
>of the forces
contributing to Jack's alcoholism and death
>was the
internal conflict between his Buddhist and
>Catholic
beliefs? I get the feeling that in his
old (not really,
>but lack of
better word) age he was turning against all that
>he had done
with his life (shown in his dislike for the
>pranksters
and such).. perhaps he was feeling guilty, thus
>drank to lose
feelings of guilt, and purposely (as in leaving los
>vegas) drank
himself to death? a slow suicide? I'm
>just
wondering, perhaps someone can help me out with
>this one?
Hey Jennie,
Thought I'd throw
this at ya:
from _Tristessa_
~ Jack Kerouac
* * * * *
"EL INDIO
GOES out and gets meat sandwiches and now
the cat goes mad
yelling and mewing for some and El Indio
throws her off
the bed--but Cat finally gets a bite of meat
and ronches at it
like a mad little Tiger and I think "If she
was as big as the
one in the zoo, she'd look at me with big
green eyes before
eating me." I'm having a fairy tale
of
Saturday night,
having a good time actually because of
the booze and the
good cheer and the careless people--
enjoying the
little animals--noticing the little Chihuahua
pup now meekly
waiting for a bite of meat or bread with
her tail curled
in and woe, if she ever inherits the earth
it'll be because
of meek--Ears curled back and even
whimpering the
little Chihuahua smalldog fear-cry--
Nevertheless
she's been alternately watching us and
sleeping all
night, and her own reflections on the
subject of Nirvana
and death and mortals biding time
till death, are
of a whimpering high frequency terrified
tender
variety--and the kind that says 'Leave me alone,
I am so delicate'
and you leave her alone in her little
fragile shell
like the shell of canoes over the ocean deeps--
I wish I could
communicate to all these creatures and
people, in the
flesh of my moonshine goodtimes the cloud
mystery of the
magic milk to be seen in Mind's Deep
Imagery where we
learn that everything is nothing--in
which case they wouldnt
worry any more, except after the
instant they
think to worry again--All of us trembling in
our mortality
boots, born to die, BORN TO DIE I could write
it on the wall
and on Walls all over America--Dove in wings
of peace, with
her Noah Menagery Moonshine Eyes; dog
with clitty claws
black and shiny, to die is born, trembles in
her purple eyes,
her little weak bloodvessels down the ribs;
yeah the ribs of
Chihuahua, and Tristessa's ribs too,
beautiful ribs,
her with her aunts in Chihuahua also
born to die,
beautiful to be ugly, quick to be dead, glad to
be sad, mad to be
had--and the El Indio death, born to
die, the man, so
he plies the needle of Saturday Night
every night is
Saturday night and goes wild to wait, what
else can he
do,--The death of Cruz, the drizzles of religion
falling on her
burial fields, the grim mouth planted in the
satin of the
earth coffin, . . . I moan to recover all that magic,
remembering my
own impending death, 'If only I had the
magic self of
babyhood when I remembered what it was
like before I was
born, I wouldnt worry about death now
knowing both to
be the same empty dream'--But what will
the Rooster say
when it dies, and someone hacks a knife
in its fragile
chin--And sweet Hen, she who eats out of
Tristessa's paw a
globule of beer, her beak miffling like
human lips to
chirn up the milk of the beer--when she
dies, sweet hen,
Tristessa who loves her will save her
lucky bone and
wrap it in red thread and keep it in her
belongings,
nevertheless sweet Mother Hen of our Arc
of Noah Night,
she the golden purveyor and reaches so
far back you
can't find the egg that prompted her outward
through the first
original shell, they'll hack and whack
at her tail with
hacksaws and make mincemeat out of
her that you run
through an iron grinder turning handle,
and would you
wonder why she trembles from fear of
punishment
too? And the death of the cat, little
dead rat
in the gutter
with twisted yickface--I wish I could
communicate to
all their combined fears of death the
Teaching that I
have heard from Ages of Old, that
recompenses all
that pain with soft reward of perfect silent
love abiding up
and down and in and out everywhere past,
present, and
future in the Void unknown where nothing
happens and all
simply is what is. But they know that
themselves, beast
and jackal and love woman, and my
Teaching of Old
is indeed so old they've heard it long
ago before my
time.
I become
depressed and I gotta go home. Everyone
of
us, born to
die."
* * * * *
Thought this
might fit in to your question, somewhere?
I was just
re-reading this and stumbled across this part
last night, your
question brought back some of the
same questions
floating through my skull. I'll get
back to this when
I have time, but I thought you
might like the
text?
Mike
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:59:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Well, as if I have not already asked for it,
and then this
Well, I don't
know if he did, but a person told me he forwarded to the
list a poem I
wrote back in 1976 or so about Jack and Allen.
If not, I
will dig it out
and post it. But in an effort to begin
to get more
literary and
expose myself to full critisim, I am going to post a couple
of poems I wrote
back in 1973 or so when I first started reading beats.
I was exposed to
Ferlinghetti and Corso in a college lit class and
before reading
Jack, decided that I was going to be a poet like them and
Ginsberg. So, this is what stumbled out. I figure everyone's pissed at
me anyway, so why
not some bad teenage poetry to boot.
Solitary Rider
Solitary rider,
Distant strider,
me, alone, apart.
Traveling free
Of chains that
hold
Some men back.
(They don't hold
me,
These chains,
I must break
free.)
Search, quest,
Else I am doomed,
To spend my life
With these chains
upon my heart.
Bentz Kirby, 1973
Baptist College
at Charleston, South Carolina
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:16:14 -0400
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From: George Russell
<CodyPomera@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: 10 most important
I hope not in any
order?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:13:06 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Ma Tucker
This is one I
never finished. I figured it was beyond
my reach and was
really a short
story.
Ma Tucker's,
Reasonable Rates
On this dusty
sofa, in her mother's den,
She sits, renting
rooms for $5.00 a night.
I stayed there
once.
Upon leaving, it
was Sunday and
Texaco played an
opera on the radio.
Suppose she was
45, looked 65,
Beaten look,
boredom had written
The lines in her
face with a sharpe pen.
Life for her was
over,
I could not see
her eyes.
She looked at us,
Kristi, me, and
said,
"You are so
lucky.
I envy you.
You are so young,
And have your
lifes before you.
And you have each
other,
and me,
...."
Just then, I say
a light, that was gone again.
Her mother, Ma
Tucker, turned,
"You have me."
She patted her
mother's hand
With more love
than I could understand.
"Yes,
mother, I have you."
She gave us
advice about
Living each day
as it comes,
To love each
other,
And we looked
into each other,
Kristi and I and
saw the same.
We could not
Ease her pain.
We could not take
her with us,
So we left her
there,
With her mother,
And they rent
rooms,
$5.00 a night.
Reasonable rates,
At any hotel.
--
Typing this
brings a particular sadness to my heart.
About one year
ago at the age of 39, Kristi committed
suicide. The sadness is deep
and I miss her pained spirit. But needless to say, we were not who Ma
Tuckers daughter
thought us to be. This is almost word
for word and is
not really a
poem. Just an observation.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:36:35 -0400
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From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: The cat-fight
Walt and
Deanie's, a neighborhood bar
50's style hole in the wall
their specialty
pork tenderloins
and a 3:00
license
the place is a
mecca
after last calls
all over town
I'm savoring
Miller Lite and mulling over my own tenderloin (barely nibbled)
when the
proverbial cat-fight hits
at the very next
table
a pregnant woman
pitches a mixed drink on a chick in a miniskirt
which leads
naturally to hairpulling and scratching
there are four of
them
it's so dramatic
glass splinters
on the brown linoleum
John Fogarty 's
dark voice drones
my drinking buddy
I see is glowing and twitching
she likes a fight
I say have your
unneccesary fun but don't expect me to jump in behind you
I have to say it
loud, over the banshees and the furniture
she thinks a
second
she rolls her
glass in her hand
Suddenly big
Walt's all around the sisters
he carries them out
the door still hissing a little
the gravid one
wails
"But she
called me a slut"
"Honey,
you're all sluts"
explains Walt,
patiently
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:44:13 -0400
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From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!
At least I'm not
being accused of mis-quoting!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:44:54 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive
Reply to message
from Nastees@AOL.COM of Mon, 26 May
>In a message
dated 97-05-26 14:03:18 EDT, you write:
>
>
>> NONE OF THE XEROXES I SOLD TO LOWELL
WERE THE PROPERTY OF OTHER
>>LIBRARIES. GOT THAT?
>
>Sorry, I'm
still confused here Gerry. Are you saying that amongst the stuff
>you
transferred to the library in Lowell in 1987, there was absolutely no
>material that
was the property of other libraries, or are you saying that the
>part you
"sold" was free of this class of material, and that any material of
>this kind was
simply "donated" instead. You know that there WAS material of
Didn't you read
his original post? He said he didn't
necessarily donate
anything, that it
was more or less all sold but at a lower price then it
was really worth
so some of the stuff could be considered donated but
nothing was
specifically tagged as being specifically donated! (If my
paraphrasing is
wrong, I'm sorry, go re-read the original post then. I'm
only a very
recent college graduate, no credentials of any kind, but Mr.
Nicosia's (sp?)
original post made sense to me, at least...)
And....for
everyone discussing this....since every legal loophole is being
dragged out,
people do not xerox, they photocopy. The
sheet of paper is
not a xerox, it's
a photocopy; Xerox is a registered trademark and is not
supposed to be
used as a noun/verb. Just read the Xerox
advertisements in your
copy of _Writer's
Digest_. And the ones for Kleenex &
Crayola Crayons &
for Day-Glo and
Post-It Notes. They're really quite
amusing.
>this sort in
the archive, or at least back then you indicated as such -- some
>people seem
to get upset when I quote directly from your letters from 1987,
>so without
quoting directly this time, I can refer to another letter in which
>you
specifically mentioned, for example, that your copies of the JK/Cowley
>letters had
been transferred to Lowell amongst the rest of the archive. As
>you know,
that material (in original form) has a home in the Newberry
>Library. Are
you saying now that the Cowley letter (xeroxes) were never
>transferred?
The date on the letter I'm not going to quote from is 25
>October,
1987. Was your statement about them in that letter wrong?
>Unfortunately
we weren't discussing the JK/AG correspondence at the time, so
>I have no
contemporary references to them.
>CHEERS Rod
(Yes, soccer went well, thanks.)
Is Mr. Nicosia on
trial here? How do any of these matters
that you've
written about in
this post really concern the Beat-L, Mr. Anastee (sp?)?
Why are you
purposely trying to discredit Mr. Nicosia so that his arguments for
preserving Jack
Kerouac's archives come off as tainted?
You aren't the
lawyer here. Leave the poor guy alone & post something
semi-relevant to
the other 198
(it's an aproximation) people on this list, please?
Diane Homza.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:42:03 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: One last little thing on the poetry end
Falling
In
Love
Will never pain
me again.
I am keeping my
eyes OPEN
So I can see just
when
To
Fall
Out
Again!
This one of my
first word plays from back in the early 70's.
I don't
know if anyone is
interested in more of the Toxic City, but how about
the meat counter,
check out and etc. I wrote a good country, uh, not
you know that
other word, song once about that.
Swinging Singles in the
Supermarket. Oh well, as I always say, I wish I was as
funny as I
think I am.
Off to build a
beat link page. I guess I'll list Levi
first. But, why
can't I get into
the Cosmic Baseball site. Let me hear
from you
Clark@clark.clark.net.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:47:57 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ma Tucker
Reply to message
from bocelts@SCSN.NET of Tue, 27 May
>Ma Tucker's,
Reasonable Rates
(snipped)
>--
>
>Typing this
brings a particular sadness to my heart.
About one year
>ago at the age of 39, Kristi committed
suicide. The sadness is deep
>and I miss her pained spirit. But needless to say, we were not who Ma
>Tuckers
daughter thought us to be. This is
almost word for word and is
>not really a
poem. Just an observation.
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
still very
touching :) thanks for sharing it!
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:53:54 -0400
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From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Allen's Memorial
Not meaning to
break the estate thread (SURE, I don't mean to!) -- but I
would like to
know if anyone else plans to attend the June 8th memorial in
Paterson for
Allen. I'm lucky -- I live across the
river (or down the
highway,
depending how you go) and will easily be there.
Just to bring
Allen up for a sentence of two more. I
was thrilled to see his
poem in the New
Yorker mention his reading year long past at Montclair State
Teachers College
(a name long outgrown as that is now Montclair State
Univeristy). I was then a wide-eyed freshman and, because
of my friendship
with someone in
charge of something (activities?
auditorium lighting? Who
knows?), became
part of the charmed circle who met the bearded gentle giant.
Thirty years later, I consider that brief
meeting a momentous occasion in my
life. He made a
comment about sunshine and stars and my name.
(So, he was
charming as
well. Go figure!)
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:05:32 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!
Rod wrote:
"At least
I'm not being accused of mis-quoting!"
No Rod, you're
only being accused of criminal activity!
Any mistake I've
ever made on the
Beat-l has been an honest error. You on
the other hand
enjoy hurting
people. Tearing at them. Betraying their confidence.
You're a real
stand up guy, Rod!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:04:12 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Charlie and billie were travelers
Charley Plymell
and son billy arrived in Lawrence aroung 5: to a
memorial mixed
family, hippy and suit shrimp dinner, jim McCrary and Sue
Brussoue (David
Ohles wife) welcomed him, H stood
ranting over me
quietly as I
write.
Patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:47:53 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re:
questions about Jack's death
She-Ra wrote:
>
> While
reading Dharma Bums yesterday a good question happened into my
> mind... Does
anyone think that one of the forces contributing to Jack's
> alcoholism
and death was the internal conflict between his Buddhist and
> Catholic
beliefs? I get the feeling that in his
old (not really, but
> lack of
better word) age he was turning against all that he had done with
> his life
(shown in his dislike for the pranksters and such).. perhaps he
> was feeling
guilty, thus drank to lose feelings of guilt, and purposely
> (as in
leaving los vegas) drank himself to death? a slow suicide? I'm
> just
wondering, perhaps someone can help me out with this one?
>
> jennie
>
> ******
jennie42@asu.edu ******
>
> #28 There is no sin-
> I know perfectly well
> where I am
> -Jack Kerouac
>
> WE ARE
SEARCHING
> FOR RATIONAL
REASONS
> FOR
BELIEVING
> IN THE
ABSURD
> -Harold Norse (from the poem
"Believing in the Absurd")
>
---------------------------------------
i think about
that conflict often. imagining the pope
and zen master in
a fist fight over
whiskey at Joe's bar and grill.
certainly a lesson in
accepting
opposites. such strains Affect the
psyche i guarantee.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:27:47 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Late night and Kicks Joy Darkness
Kicks, Joy,
Darkness
some selected
readings suggested while listening to the KJC CD.
Lord Byron.
1788-1824.
... Still from
the fount of joy's delicious springs
... On with the
dance! let joy be unconfined;
... And storm and
darkness! ye are wondrous strong,
... And I have
loved thee, Ocean! and my joy
... There 's not
a joy the world can give like that it takes away.
... All who joy
would win
... From crowns
to kicks, according to their vices. 38
Joy, Darkness
William
Shakespeare. Macbeth.
... The
instruments of darkness tell us truths,
... I drink to
the general joy o' the whole table.
John Milton. 1608-1674.
... No light, but
rather darkness visible.
... Where joy
forever dwells: hail, horrors!
... With joy and
love triumphing.
... Such joy
ambition finds.
... Of darkness
till it smil'd!
... May sit i'
th' centre and enjoy bright day;
... Enjoy your
dear wit and gay rhetoric,
Alexander Pope.
1688-1744.
... And more true
joy Marcellus exil'd feels
... And universal
darkness buries all.
... Who ne'er
knew joy but friendship might divide,
... The
melancholy joy of evils past:
... (The good man
prolongs his life; to be able to enjoy one's past life
is to live
twice).--Martial, x.
237.
Henry W.
Longfellow. 1807-1882.
... The day is
done, and the darkness
... Must love and
joy and sorrow learn;
Robert Browning.
1812-1890.
... For life,
with all it yields of joy and woe,
... Of pain,
darkness, and cold.
James Russell
Lowell. 1819-1891.
... And the
choice goes by forever 'twixt that darkness and that light.
... Joy comes,
grief goes, we know not how.
Old Testament.
... The land of
darkness and the shadow of death.
... Beautiful for
situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion,
22
... the city of
the great King.
... Nor for the
pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for... the
destruction that
wasteth at noonday. 37
... Give unto
them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the
garment of praise
for the spirit of
heaviness.
... The hill of
Sion is a fair place, and the joy of the whole
earth.--Ibid.
... For the
pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor for the sickness
that destroyeth
in the
noonday.--Ibid.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:00:17 +0200
Reply-To: smeraldo.press@iol.it
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo
<smeraldo.press@IOL.IT>
Organization:
Teatro Smeraldo
Subject: Jack & Jazz
Hi everybody!
from the
"cloudy shores of Italy", I have two questions to ask you:
- which kind of
LIVE jazz was jack kerouac used to listen to during his
life? I mean: in
which jazz clubs did he go often to, in which towns and
in which period?
Do exist any LETTER (apart from references contained in
published books)
in which these details are booked, or does he remember
any live jam
session or jazz musician he met or knew?
- who are the
jazz musicians playing with him during his Mexico City
Blues and On The
Road reading recording? I have a "copy-of-the-copy" of
that tape and no
one could tell me when, where and with whom it was
recorded...
Thank you very
much for your help.
Bye, Laura :.)
--
Laura Moja
Ufficio Stampa
Teatro Smeraldo
smeraldo.press@iol.it
http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:21:42 -0400
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers
In-Reply-To:
<970526184408_1955964541@emout09.mail.aol.com>
hey jerry:
usually i am an
active participant in restoring peace to the list, as many
here may know.
actually, i had unsubbed, then when i returned, i came into
the fur flying
and furiously long posts, took me a long time to get my
sealegs.
i've held off
until i could read all of mr anstee's voluminous and
vitriolic posts,
a dirty job, but in interests of truth and some justice,
i had to sort
this whole danged mess out.
and rod
i'm not in the
least surprised to find you up to your usual tricks, just
sad to see that
once again, you rely on acid rather than your own batteries.
mc
-to live outside
the law you must be honest - i think bob dylan sed that...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:21:49 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...
In-Reply-To:
<9704268646.AA864695151@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>
wes wrote
>Hello,
Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's
a reason I never post
>anything
>to Rod
Anstee. I still remember the crap he
threw at Ron Whitehead (not to
>mention
others). He's a man with his own agenda,
and he does what strikes his
>fancy...
whether anybody "puts up with it" or not. Silence is not being party
>to him. So, since my inaction is a statement, let the
statement be I
>won't be a
>party to any
of it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my
>actions
>or
reactions. As I posted in an open letter
to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's
>made his
point, and made it well. The other guys
are just making asses out of
>themselves...
my impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.
>
>Why should I
waste my time posting to them? It won't
change anything they do.
>Only reasonable
people listen to reasonable voices.
>
>All the best,
---Wes
*****************
hello wes!
couldnt agree more, and believe i said same the last time rod
bullied one of
our angels off list, i still miss ron whitehead, too, wes.
and i dislike bullies
intensely.
yrs
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:21:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: send lawyers guns and money the shit has
hit the fan
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19970526194611.006b2538@pop.pipeline.com>
gads.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:44:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: any one know if this is still in print?
In-Reply-To:
<970526224507_2086822789@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Elegiac Feelings American and was published in
paperback by New
Directions Books
333 Sixth Avenue
New York, NY 10014
____________
i so enjoyed
rBk's quotations and would love to get my hands on a copy.
thanks all.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:44:15 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ma Tucker
In-Reply-To: <338A5F51.AB136E36@scsn.net>
rBk wrote (snip
fore and aft)
>She gave us
advice about
>Living each
day as it comes,
>To love each
other,
>And we looked
into each other,
>Kristi and I
and saw the same.
>We could not
>Ease her
pain.
>We could not
take her with us,
>So we left
her there,
>With her
mother,
>And they rent
rooms,
>$5.00 a
night.
>Reasonable
rates,
>At any hotel.
>
>--
>
>Typing this
brings a particular sadness to my heart.
About one year
>ago at the age of 39, Kristi committed
suicide. The sadness is deep
>and I miss her pained spirit. But needless to say, we were not who Ma
>Tuckers
daughter thought us to be. This is
almost word for word and is
>not really a
poem. Just an observation.
____________
thanks, rBk. and
the above quote is poignantly poetic.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:10:17 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!
i wish we all had
i-phones so we could really rip
and tear. maybe
even video conferencing
woo hooooo!!!
jeremy
----------
: From: Jerry
Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject: Re:
Rod Is Off Base!
: Date: Tuesday,
May 27, 1997 12:05 AM
:
: Rod wrote:
:
: "At least
I'm not being accused of mis-quoting!"
:
:
: No Rod, you're
only being accused of criminal activity!
Any mistake I've
: ever made on
the Beat-l has been an honest error. You
on the other hand
: enjoy hurting
people. Tearing at them. Betraying their confidence.
:
: You're a real
stand up guy, Rod!
:
:
: Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:15:55 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: send lawyers guns and money the shit
has hit the fan
Thanx Marie,
Think I'll go
throw on some Warren Zevon and do
the Wilbury
Twist. {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:31:55 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: "...a gum in your hand?!?"
Jerry Cimino wrote:
"...anyone who isn't shooting in the same
direction as you
is the
enemy! Maybe it shouldn't be that way,
but it's human nature that it
is."
Which is why arguing with a 'gun' in
your hand/mouth is such a bad,
and unworkable
idea.
....always good to check one's
spelling; I had 'gum' instead
of 'gun' first
time!
"If you're not with me, you must
be against me." is a nice
simpifying
assumption if you're choosing religious sides, but has no place
on the Beat list.
We're all a little right and a little wrong with lots of
usable stuff in
the middle..
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:32:01 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Hoops anyone?
Anyone for a
little hoops? ...or pick up hurley?
Crazy Irish game
seemingly bred of
Gaelic
Football and
Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
Ref: ********
Bill Gargan
Coach:**********
Jan Kerouac John Sampas
Team members:************
The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
Substitutes can sign on here; please
indicate affiliation and
language of
choice when swearing!
...Jack's bringin' the wine and
burgers for the after game
feast!
Apologies to everyone who didn't get
picked for one of the teams.
...and are
standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:04:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Antoine, it is a glub
Antoine,
Did you ever see
the Woody Allen movie where he went to rob a bank and
could not print
clearly? He got into an argument with
the teller who
insisted his note
said "glub" and not "gun."
Damn funny scene. Me I
try not to worry
too much about spulling. I mean, we
don't spull win we
tulk, do we?
Well to hide from
pre-school children maybe, but otherwise, not.
Happiness is a
warm glub,
Bang bang shoot
shoot
Happiness is a
warm glug.
Lennon/McCartney
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:10:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
In-Reply-To:
<199705271132.HAA25507@biggs.microtec.net>
i'll substitute
for the ball, which will probably be immediately
deconstructed,
leaving me
and my soul
benched
in heaven
mc
>Anyone for a
little hoops? ...or pick up hurley?
Crazy Irish game
>seemingly
bred of Gaelic
>Football and
Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
>
>
> Ref: ********
>
> Bill Gargan
>
> Coach:**********
>
> Jan Kerouac John Sampas
>
> Team members:************
>
> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
>
> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
>
> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
>
> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
>
> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
>
> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
>
> Substitutes can sign on here; please
indicate affiliation and
>language of
choice when swearing!
>
> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and
burgers for the after game
>feast!
>
> Apologies to everyone who didn't get
picked for one of the teams.
>...and are
standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!
> Voice
contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:15:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA,
Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage
Gregory Corso's
"Marriage" is one of my all time favorite poems. I was
lecturing a group
of high school students on The Beat Generation and I asked
if anyone had
heard of Corso. Two seventeen-year-old
boys had not only heard
of him but had
written a paper on him (*surpirse!!*). I
read "Marriage" to
them as poetry
that gives you permission to laugh.
I have to be
honest and say that as much as I love "Howl,""Kaddish," and
"Plutonian
Ode," "Marriage" has probably had the most lasting impact on me
personally as
Poetry giving you permission to laugh and have fun.
Speaking of
laughing and having fun, check out Hal Sirowitz's "Mother Said."
You will not be
the same when you finish.
Paul McDonald
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:15:06 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Antoine, it is a glub
In-Reply-To: <338ADBE4.71E1E18B@scsn.net>
you can be in my
dream
if i can be in
yours*
glub
glub
glub
it's not just for
breakfast any more..
ak
mc
*bob dylan sed
that.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:37:30 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
>Anyone for a
little hoops? ...or pick up hurley?
Crazy Irish game
>seemingly
bred of Gaelic
>Football and
Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
Geez, second time
in less than a day that hurley has been mentioned in my
presence after 46
years of hurley-less existence. Something cosmic going on
around here.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:34:00 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: What kind of game does Chaput have?
Antoine:
What kind of game
does Chaput have? Can I take him to my
left? How
about the spin
dribble and coming up with a left handed
hook shot?\
I feel pretty
good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.
Peace,
:-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:40:23 +0200
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen
<Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: Kerouac's muse
I just wanted, in the midst of all this
estate-babbel, to direct
attention to the
stars. That's right. And more specifically the stars
towards the end
of "on the Road" ("and tonight the stars'll be out, and
don't you know
that God is Pooh Bear, the evening star must be drooping and
shedding her
sparkled dims on the prairie, which is..."), and suggest these
stars be
Kerouac's muse. They represent Salvatore's ability to finally
remember (that
& the fact that Dean is gone, GONE, now for good). The stars
have been such an
emblem ever since Emersons essays, and also gleam in
Salingers
"Seymour, an introduction;" when Seymour critizices
Buddy's
short-stories for not being honest enough. C'mon you can do better,
he says, and then
asks Buddy: "Where all you're stars out? Did you write
you're heart
out?"---The same way, maybe, Sal looks up into Deep Black and
opens his heart,
thinking of Dean Moriarty, Old Dean Moriarty. He's at the
end, and the
novel can finally begin...
nh
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:47:46 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: SIGNOFF BEAT-L
Comments: To:
LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
I love the smell
of napalm in the morning, but my three-day
weekend is over
and I've got to be able to concentrate at
my job. If I continue to be involved in the
back-biting
and name-calling
here, I'm simply not going to be able
to pay enough
attention to the back-biting and name-calling
here at
work. So I'm taking a break from BEAT-L
for a little
while. Somebody let me know if it ever gets back to
a nice
20 or 30 messages
a day ...
Parting shots --
I'm glad a few people have expressed their
dissatisfaction
with Rod Anstee's devices, and to those who
have called on me
to join in on this, I can only say that
I've generally
been too appalled at Gerald Nicosia's lack
of rhetorical
finesse and self control to take much notice
of Rod's posts in
the first place. I studied debate in
college (I got an
A, and always won) and I have to say that
while there've
been some excellent words written by the
peacemakers here
at BEAT-L (and certainly some memorable
and wonderful
moments, which I'll miss), the performances
by all the principal
disputants have been unimpressive.
I'm now going to
demonstrate my own (often highly
effective)
rhetorical device here, which is to pick up
my papers, still
talking, and walk out of the room in
disgust.
SIGNOFF BEAT-L.
Peace
everybody. This morning the New York
Times
uncovered a new
holocaust on the shores of the Congo
River, near the
site of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness."
There's got to be
a better way. And I'm not finding
it here.
-----------------------------------------------------
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
(the beat literature web site)
Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
(my fantasy folk-rock album)
###################################
"Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
-- Bob Dylan
-----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:52:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> Anyone for a
little hoops? ...or pick up hurley?
Crazy Irish game
> seemingly
bred of Gaelic
> Football and
Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
>
> Ref: ********
>
> Bill Gargan
>
> Coach:**********
>
> Jan Kerouac John Sampas
>
> Team members:************
>
> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
>
> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
>
> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
>
> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
>
> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
>
> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
>
> Substitutes can sign on here; please
indicate affiliation and
> language of
choice when swearing!
>
> ...Jack's bringin' the wine
and burgers for the after game
> feast!
>
> Apologies to everyone who didn't get
picked for one of the teams.
> ...and are
standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
an old Indian
game ....
i think it would
be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red
Rover now and mix
up the sides a bit ...
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:55:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Antoine, it is a glub
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> you can be
in my dream
> if i can be
in yours*
> glub
> glub
> glub
> it's not
just for breakfast any more..
> ak
> mc
> *bob dylan
sed that.
Dream I saw Saint
Augustine
last night
and Joe Hill was
his
back-up doo-dah
singer
and he sent the
whole
lot of us
packing
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:58:21 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
In-Reply-To: <v01530500afb05b2f8efa@[204.181.15.86]>
On Tue, 27 May
1997, Michael Czarnecki wrote:
> Geez, second
time in less than a day that hurley has been mentioned in my
> presence
after 46 years of hurley-less existence. Something cosmic going on
> around here.
Yep... lots of
cosmicness ; although sadly not "cosmic" in the good old
stereotypical
hippy "peace & love" sense, more along the lines of big
angry celestial
objects scraping bits off on each other until eventually
the whole entire
thing goes bang in a terrible supernova white fire the
light from which
eventually reaches the planet Earth several millenia
later where
nobody gives a fuck.
Olly.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Survival of
the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
considered the
idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
Could the Doctor
have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
_______________________________________________________________________________
or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
skink@imrryr.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:03:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: What kind of game does Chaput have?
At 09:34 AM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Antoine:
>
>What kind of
game does Chaput have? Can I take him to
my left? How
>about the
spin dribble and coming up with a left
handed hook shot?\
>
>I feel pretty
good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.
>
Grew up in Lowell
in the "Acre". We were so poor they tore our house down
and built
"slums". Couldn't aford to pay attention. I had to fight my way
across the North
Common to get to school. Had to walk a mile to get to
school every day.
UPHILL BOTH WAYS. Basketball!!!! SWIIIISH!!!!
>Peace,
> :-)
>
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:07:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: What kind of game does Chaput have?
Phil Chaput
wrote:
>
> At 09:34 AM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >Antoine:
> >
> >What
kind of game does Chaput have? Can I
take him to my left? How
> >about
the spin dribble and coming up with a
left handed hook shot?\
> >
> >I feel
pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.
> >
> Grew up in
Lowell in the "Acre". We were so poor they tore our house down
> and built
"slums". Couldn't aford to pay attention. I had to fight my way
> across the
North Common to get to school. Had to walk a mile to get to
> school every
day. UPHILL BOTH WAYS. Basketball!!!! SWIIIISH!!!!
> >Peace,
> > :-)
> >
> >--
> >Bentz
>
>bocelts@scsn.net
> >
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
> >
> >
swish
that sounds like
an uptown court with actual nets...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:11:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L
Levi Asher wrote:
>
> I love the
smell of napalm in the morning, but my three-day
> weekend is
over and I've got to be able to concentrate at
> my job. If I continue to be involved in the
back-biting
> and
name-calling here, I'm simply not going to be able
> to pay
enough attention to the back-biting and name-calling
> here at
work. So I'm taking a break from BEAT-L
for a little
> while. Somebody let me know if it ever gets back to
a nice
> 20 or 30
messages a day ...
>
> Parting
shots -- I'm glad a few people have expressed their
>
dissatisfaction with Rod Anstee's devices, and to those who
> have called
on me to join in on this, I can only say that
> I've
generally been too appalled at Gerald Nicosia's lack
> of
rhetorical finesse and self control to take much notice
> of Rod's
posts in the first place. I studied
debate in
> college (I
got an A, and always won) and I have to say that
> while
there've been some excellent words written by the
> peacemakers
here at BEAT-L (and certainly some memorable
> and
wonderful moments, which I'll miss), the performances
> by all the
principal disputants have been unimpressive.
> I'm now
going to demonstrate my own (often highly
> effective)
rhetorical device here, which is to pick up
> my papers,
still talking, and walk out of the room in
> disgust.
>
> SIGNOFF
BEAT-L.
>
> Peace
everybody. This morning the New York
Times
> uncovered a
new holocaust on the shores of the Congo
> River, near
the site of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness."
> There's got
to be a better way. And I'm not finding
> it here.
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------
> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>
> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
> (the beat literature web site)
>
> Queensboro Ballads:
http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
> (my fantasy folk-rock album)
>
> ###################################
>
> "Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
> -- Bob Dylan
>
-----------------------------------------------------
take care,
Levi. probably visit the Queensboro and
Kicks websites more
often now....
hope that either
you or I or both are still alive when this thread ends
and something
fresh could start again
somewhere round
my corner
in a filling
station called Oz.
bye,
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:21:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: signoff
you all
just thought i
would let you know that i can take no more of the community
erosion that has
occured.
i am signing off.
please feel free
to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write
poetry or just
chat, my email is:
dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca
and im still
hanging about the boho list as well.
in the meantime i
will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.
your
derek beaulieu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:43:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L
Comments: cc:
brooklyn@netcom.com
In-Reply-To:
<199705271347.GAA19990@netcom.netcom.com>
This is getting
really bad. This used to be one of my
favorite lists
because it was
never boring and tedious, always interesting, and it never
fell into the
personal conversations and arguements like every other list
on the freakin'
planet did. I was ecstatic with Gerry
Nicosia came onto
the list. "Wow," I thought, "what an
incredible resource of information
this list is
about to become", not that it wasn't already. Now Levi, who
inspired me to do
my own beat site to bring all the best sites together
and give a
central location for articles and information which made itself
available through
this list. The information I've gotten
of this list is
what got me an
instructional assitantship for the Beat class we offer
here. The internet is going to be a big part of my
contribution to that
class. What this list has become really turns my
stomach. Gerry is a
great guy, from
what I've read. He really cares about
his cause, as do I
and many, many
others. Phil and the others have also
been valuable
resources and
interesting commentators in the past.
But there's more to
studying the
Beats than this. There used to be so I
know there can be
again. This back-and-forth bickering has got to stop
before we lose
anymore list
members. I remember when Ron Whitehead
left the list as
well. I was sick of that mess the day it
started. I miss his crazy posts
as well, and am
eternally grateful for the posters, flyers, magazines, and
info he's sent my
way since I first me him through this list.
People like
Levi are
institutions on this list and the reason it is such a pleasure to
be on. I hope you can come back soon Levi. If this keeps going on for
two more months,
I may be joining you.
Regretfully
yours,
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:55:26 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: signoff
Derek A. Beaulieu
wrote:
>
> you all
> just thought
i would let you know that i can take no more of the community
> erosion that
has occured.
> i am signing
off.
> please feel
free to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write
> poetry or
just chat, my email is:
>
dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca
> and im still
hanging about the boho list as well.
> in the
meantime i will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.
> your
> derek
beaulieu
It's really sad
to see people like derek and levi leaving the list
because of what
has been happening here and because of the incredible
post volume that
I am also finding oppressive. I would
welcome back the
old limit on
posts per day and hope maybe we can all restrain ourselves
somewhat in the
number of really extraneous posts. I
have certainly
posted my share.
Missing the days
of 25-30 posts a day and not sure how much longer I can
take it.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:56:27 CDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Wes Lundburg
<wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Copyright laws and the Privacy Act
David:
You asked whether
posting private mail is a violation of copyright law. I don't
know about the
law, but I know a lot about the Privacy Act of 1934, which
addresses the
issue of whether or not communication intended for one party is
public
domain. Specifically, this is the law
that forbids evidence obtained
from
phone-tapping to be used in court. It
applies, too, to radio
communications,
such as when the Coast Guard overhears drug runners talking
(which is how I
know this particular law so well, being a former Coast Guard
radioman).
I'm not qualified
to interpret the law, but I would guess that e-mail
communications
and letters fall under the same category as radio and telephone
communications. Making any such communication public without
the express
consent of the
"sender" would be a violation of the Privacy Act, and probably
copyright law as
a result.
Hope this
helps... and I hope it's accurate!
---Wes
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:05:23 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: my condolences to whoever just
"signed off"...
i just
"signed on" and wanted to try out sending a message....
i would like to
discuss William S. Burroughs' Western Lands and his general
philosophy, which
intrigues me, and which I see evidence of
everywhere....perhaps
his plan of infiltration has worked after all.
Much
more effective
than many supposedly subversive writers/artists. Gives me
faith of sorts,
that once people take that step forward in consciousness(or
rather, once it
is taken for them) there's no going back.
Although i was
doubtful about the use of the internet at first, i now think
that it is an
invaluable distributor of information and ideas. Kind of
terrifying the
power and ferocity with which ideas reproduce themselves,
contaminating
increasing #s & causing imperceptible mutations that have
revolutionary
resonance WITHOUT AN IDENTIFIABLE SOURCE.
With authorship
comes responsibility but who in her left mind would want to
take credit/get
recognition for propelling fellow humans even faster towards
the Inevitable by
reconciling them with it? Is that the purpose of art, to
heal? Is it
possible to heal too much and in doing so forget about necessary
pain?
Which is the
greater burden, life or death? Ok, i
don't wanna start getting
cosmic on you,
but i hope we have something to talk about now, and i don't
want any more
people signing off because they're bored.
Remember: Bored Is
Boring. what happened to the lost art of imagination?
jeesus why do i feel
like i'm typing
into a void.(don't answer
that)!!!!!!!!----------------Marioka7@aol.com (aka maya)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:24:43 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
Reply to message
from stratis@ODYSSEE.NET of Tue, 27 May
Which side would
the elf be on? :)
Diane.
>
>Anyone for a
little hoops? ...or pick up hurley?
Crazy Irish game
>seemingly bred
of Gaelic
>Football and
Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
>
>
> Ref: ********
>
> Bill Gargan
>
> Coach:**********
>
> Jan Kerouac John Sampas
>
> Team members:************
>
> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
>
> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
>
> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
>
> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
>
> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
>
> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
>
> Substitutes can sign on here; please
indicate affiliation and
>language of
choice when swearing!
>
> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and
burgers for the after game
>feast!
>
> Apologies to everyone who didn't get
picked for one of the teams.
>...and are
standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!
> Voice
contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
>
>
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:30:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> wes wrote
> >Hello,
Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's
a reason I never post
> >anything
> >to Rod
Anstee. I still remember the crap he
threw at Ron Whitehead (not to
> >mention
others). He's a man with his own agenda,
and he does what strikes
his
> >fancy...
whether anybody "puts up with it" or not. Silence is not being
party
> >to
him. So, since my inaction is a
statement, let the statement be I
> >won't be
a
> >party to
any of it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my
> >actions
> >or
reactions. As I posted in an open letter
to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's
> >made his
point, and made it well. The other guys
are just making asses out
of
>
>themselves... my impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.
> >
> >Why
should I waste my time posting to them?
It won't change anything they
do.
> >Only
reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.
> >
> >All the
best, ---Wes
>
*****************
> hello wes!
couldnt agree more, and believe i said same the last time rod
> bullied one
of our angels off list, i still miss ron whitehead, too, wes.
> and i dislike
bullies intensely.
> yrs
> mc
yess, another
vote for deleting those that underestimate thier audiance.
I resisted
critiqueing ra terrible wandering sentences.
but Gerald is way
above it. jerry you are a born rabble rouser, i like
that,
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:53:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nick Weir-Williams
<nweir-w@NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick
>Doesn't the
notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?
>
No, it doesn't. I
checked with the Bible (aka Chicago Manual of Style). Fair
use is very
complicated of course, but the fact that material is unpublished
does not negate
fair use. It is a complicating factor, and the Manual
suggests using
even more caution than usual in quoting from unpublished
material, but the
doctrine still holds.
In any case, the
overriding issue here is whether you can *look at* material
without
permission from both parties.
For those that
are interested, the following components determine fair use:
the purpose and
character of the use, including whether or not it's for
commercial or not
for profit educational purposes
the nature of the
copuyrighted work
the amount and
substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work
as a whole
the effect of the
use upon the potential market for, or value of, the
copyrighted work.
There is nothing
in this to stop scholars making photocopies for their own
scholarly
purposes. The Kerouac estate might legtimately want to stop
extensive
quotation from letters or notebooks because it would affect
adversely their
own future sales of books based on those works, and they
would have the
legal right to do that. But what we're talking about is
whether they have
the legal right to stop someone looking at letters in an
archive.
Nick
**************************************************************************
*Nil Carborundum
Illegitimis*
It's better to
die on your feet than to live on your knees
Nick
Weir-Williams
Director,
Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208
President,
Illinois Book Publishers Association
List Manager,
chipub listserv
ph: 847 491 8114
fax: 847 491 8150
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:26:38 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ma Tucker
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> This is one
I never finished. I figured it was
beyond my reach and was
> really a
short story.
>
> (snipped)
I think you
should leave it the way it is. Great
ending.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:29:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
RACE --- wrote:
>
> Antoine
Maloney wrote:
> >
> > Anyone
for a little hoops? ...or pick up
hurley? Crazy Irish game
> >
seemingly bred of Gaelic
> >
Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
> >
> > Ref: ********
> >
> > Bill Gargan
> >
> > Coach:**********
> >
> > Jan Kerouac John Sampas
> >
> > Team members:************
> >
> > The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
> >
> > Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
> >
> > Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
> >
> > Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
> >
> > Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
> >
> > Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
> >
> > Substitutes can sign on here; please
indicate affiliation and
> >
language of choice when swearing!
> >
> > ...Jack's bringin' the wine
and burgers for the after game
> > feast!
> >
> > Apologies to everyone who didn't get
picked for one of the teams.
> > ...and
are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!
> > Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
> >
> > "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to
do!"
> > -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah
Phillips
>
> an old
Indian game ....
>
> i think it
would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red
> Rover now
and mix up the sides a bit ...
>
> david rhaesa
David,
I think you
should be the sub ref. Did I read you
coached debating at
Dartmouth?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:46:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Copyright laws and the Privacy Act
Wes Lundburg
wrote:
>
> David:
>
> You asked
whether posting private mail is a violation of copyright law. I
don't
> know about
the law, but I know a lot about the Privacy Act of 1934, which
> addresses
the issue of whether or not communication intended for one party is
> public
domain. Specifically, this is the law
that forbids evidence obtained
> from
phone-tapping to be used in court. It
applies, too, to radio
>
communications, such as when the Coast Guard overhears drug runners talking
> (which is
how I know this particular law so well, being a former Coast Guard
> radioman).
>
> I'm not
qualified to interpret the law, but I would guess that e-mail
>
communications and letters fall under the same category as radio and telephone
>
communications. Making any such
communication public without the express
> consent of
the "sender" would be a violation of the Privacy Act, and probably
> copyright
law as a result.
>
> Hope this
helps... and I hope it's accurate!
>
> ---Wes
my hunch is the
Privacy Act restrictions are negative restraints on
government
intrusion into private communications.
i'm certain it is
accurate in that
regard. don't know if it more than an
ethical analogy
to the question
here.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:52:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > Antoine
Maloney wrote:
> > >
> > >
Anyone for a little hoops? ...or
pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game
> > >
seemingly bred of Gaelic
> > >
Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!
> > >
> >
> Ref: ********
> > >
> >
> Bill Gargan
> > >
> >
> Coach:**********
> > >
> >
> Jan Kerouac John Sampas
> > >
> >
> Team members:************
> > >
> >
> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
> > >
> >
> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
> > >
> >
> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
> > >
> >
> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
> > >
> >
> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
> > >
> >
> Mike Cakebread Ann
Charters
> > >
> >
> Substitutes can sign on
here; please indicate affiliation and
> > >
language of choice when swearing!
> > >
> >
> ...Jack's bringin'
the wine and burgers for the after game
> > >
feast!
> > >
> >
> Apologies to everyone who
didn't get picked for one of the teams.
> > >
...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care
less!?!
> >
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
> > >
> >
> "An anarchist is someone
who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to
> do!"
> >
> -- Norman
Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
> >
> > an old
Indian game ....
> >
> > i think
it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red
> > Rover
now and mix up the sides a bit ...
> >
> > david
rhaesa
>
> David,
>
> I think you
should be the sub ref. Did I read you
coached debating at
> Dartmouth?
>
> DC
in another
lifetime .... you could not PAY ME ENUF to referee this
foray!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:39:39 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg poem
ran across a poem
by AG that kind of describes how I feel today
We Rise on Sun
Beams
and Fall in the
Night
Dawn's orb
orange-raw shining over Palisades
bare crowded branches
bush up from the marshes--
New Jersey with
my father riding automobile
highway to Newark
airport--Empire State's
spire, horned
buildingtops, Manhattan
rising as in W.C.
Williams' eyes between wire trestles--
trucks sixwheeled
steady rolling overpass
beside New
York--I am here
tiny under sun
rising in vast white sky
staring thru
skeleton new buildings,
with pen in hand
awake....
Allen Ginsberg
December 11, 1974
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:05:26 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Thugs
May 27, 1997
To all the Good
and Friendly Folk on the Beat List:
I hope the past week has been
instructive to you all.
We have seen the three chief
representatives of Mr. Sampas's point
of view--Phil
Chaput, Rod Anstee, and Paul Maher--employ the tactics of thugs.
I do not know whether any of these
three has been hired by Mr.
Sampas to
represent him, or whether they have chosen to do their dirty work
freelance. At least one, Mr. Chaput, has admitted he
gets "some" of his
material from Mr.
Sampas.
Mr. Chaput has posted privileged
information from Jan Kerouac's
income tax
returns here on the Beat-List--material that could not have come
to him thru any
lawful channel.
Mr. Chaput has accused me of breaking
the law by reselling
individual xerox
copies of Kerouac's letters (not for profit)--copies that
had been made
solely for study--to a library, which also claimed to me that
it would use them
only for study purposes. He could not,
however, produce a
statute that
indicated this was a crime.
Mr. Anstee has gone farther. He has claimed that I sold (or
donated, he
couldn't quite get that straight) xerox copies of Kerouac
letters THAT
BELONGED TO COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY to the U Mass, Lowell library.
The only problem
with that is, there are no xeroxes from Columbia University
in the MEMORY
BABE archive in U Mass, Lowell. In other
words, not to put
too fine a point
upon it, Mr. Anstee's accusation was an outright lie.
Then we have Mr. Maher, a convicted
thief himself, accusing me of
having sold a
"stolen, worthless archive" to U Mass, Lowell. The University
of Massachusetts
is not in the habit of buying stolen material; and the
archive has been
there for ten years, eight of which it was in full public
display (so
public in fact that someone stole 60 autograph letters); yet NOT
ONE SINGLE
COMPLAINT OR LEGAL ACTION WAS ACTUALLY FILED AGAINST IT.
Futhermore, as for the archive being
"worthless," there are four
major American
libraries that are willing to pay Lowell their $7,500 back to
recover the
archive and make it available to the public--as soon as Lowell
agrees to divest
of it.
Beyond this, we have Mr. Anstee printing
my private letters here on
the
Beat-List. A writer's private letters
are given the strictest copyright
protection under
U.S. federal law, and that protection has been upheld in
every court
decision I know of--including the famous one that kept a
biographer (I
forget his name) from including any of J.D. Salinger's
personal letters
in an unauthorized biography.
Because the Beat-List is a public forum
does not mean people can
keep breaking the
law here with impunity.
Some people have expressed their
concern that I was "driven off the
Beat-List like
Ron Whitehead." I have not been driven off, but neither do I
intend to keep
arguing with criminals and thugs.
I will speak to one of my lawyers
today, to see what legal action
can be taken to
keep these crimes from continuing.
Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:09:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nick Weir-Williams
<nweir-w@NWU.EDU>
Subject: Libraries and Permissions
Here's my report
from a good contact in the University Library.
1. Most libraries
expect and allow open access to collections, open at any
rate to
'qualified' persons.
2. Sometimes the
deal made by the person selling the archive insists on
restrictions,
which the library obeys (i.e. letters not to be looked at
until ten years
after death of the writer). Note the agreement is with the
person selling
the archive, not the copyright holder.
3. The copyright
holder can restrict publication of copyright material, but
my librarian did
not feel they could legally restrict access if it was not
the copyright
holder that made the sale or donation.
4. It is not
necessary to obtain permissions to *look at* letters in an archive.
So if UM Lowell
are restricting access to the Memory Babe archive, that is a
decision they are
making on their own, under pressure from whoever... it
sounds like it
runs against the agreement made between them and Gerry
Nicosia at the
time of the sale of the archive, and depending on that
agreement they
are certainly disobeying the spirit of it, and quite possibly
the letter of the
law in that agreement too.
If they are
unwilling to open the archive, I think they should be prepared
to admit the
reasons for this and sell it back to Gerry or on to another
library.
And if the Sampas
family want to restrict access to *this* archive, it's
hardly surprising
that so little of their archive is in library hands and
open to
inspection, is it?
And please don't
tell me the Kerouac archive is their property and they can
do what they like
with it legally and we should be grateful for small
crumbs. I know
it's theirs legally. But we are dealing with the legacy of
one of the great
American writers
and there are moral and scholarly obligations that come
with owning the
archive as well as ownership and collecting royalties. One
question - is the
remainder of the archive being properly cared for, under
security and
proper climate control?
Nick W-W
**************************************************************************
*Nil Carborundum
Illegitimis*
It's better to
die on your feet than to live on your knees
Nick
Weir-Williams
Director,
Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208
President,
Illinois Book Publishers Association
List Manager,
chipub listserv
ph: 847 491 8114
fax: 847 491 8150
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:10:07 CDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Wes Lundburg
<wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Hoops Anyone?
> Team members:************
>
> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
>
> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
>
> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
>
> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
>
> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
>
> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
>
How did I end up
on a team? I thought I was doing a
pretty good job of staying
out of this...
You know, I'd really rather be playing opposite Dennis Rodman...
at least I know
what he'll do and why...
Peace... (if that
means anything anymore)
---Wes Lundburg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:33:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Litigation Theology
In-Reply-To: <338A1061.E26B1899@scsn.net>
Dear R. Bentz
Kirby, Esq.:
Very generous of
you circumstantially. (But for gad's
sake, let us reserve
the right to fight
over the depositions of our lives.) For
me, you
momentarily
restored a little wryness to the twists and turns of the
BeatList. (I'm not been honest--sometimes when I read
the dozens of daily
posts re: the
Estate Wars I break into hysterical giggles at the insults,
Marie's simple to
the point gads, and the horror! the horror!, perpetually
agast but not
forlorn.) My remarks were aimed at you,
but don't worry, I'm
no Zen
archer. I endure wide of the mark and am
more likely to hit the
cat's ass than
the bull's eye. And I have to concede
that one of my
favorite students
is now a lawyer (he had the wisdom never to take a course
from me) (he
wanted to be a writer but as far as he got was jumping into
the Hemingway
pool in Key West with his clothes on, despite the horror of
the tour guides
and the six-toed cats, now is working himself to death in
Chattanooga
before daylight til long after darkness and just wants to spend
more time with
his kids and says he will never be able to pay off his
student
loans). Yes, I am indeed a John R., but
without contract,
portfolio, or
estate, hence my fabled savoir-faire.
J. Model A Ford
Mitchell, M. A. (in English!)
>John Mitchell
wrote,
>
>> The
problem with lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come
>> so
>> highly
and peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's
>>
gasoline).
>>
>> That's
just MO(loch).
>>
>> Thanks,
but asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is
>> like
>> asking
the Devil in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy
>> to
>> speak,
given either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others
>> twisted
>> around
their own feet.
>>
>> That's
just my theory of Litigation Theology.
>>
>>
Rertospectively yrs.,
>> John M.
>> Be
cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't
drool.
>
> ROTFLMAO,
even it is aimed at me. Good post
John. By the way, were
>you kin to
John R. ;-)
>
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:38:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?
Beat Friends,
Through all this estate shit, one of
the most intelligent posts that
graced my mailbox
said, basically, "You know, Kerouac wasn't the only
Beat."
Seeing two of the more vocal members of
our humble ranks give up the ghost
today was
terribly disheartening. I have to ask
why? How did all this get
so damned out of
hand? What's the point? And most importantly, where did
it get us?
Absofuckinglutely nowhere.
What happens now? Our list that used to boast nearly 250 lovers
of Beat
Literature and
Culture is now shrinking, and to what ends?
It's no one's
fault, we all
contributed in our own way.
But to get to the subject of my post. .
. where is the rest of the
Beat-L? Leon, where are you? How about a Neal Cassady story? Mongo?
How
about you? Got anything for us? Or have you two left us as well?
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:08:26 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hoops Anyone?
I'm OK with the
team I'm on. I just don't want to be traded!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:41:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?
sniff,
snifff.....SOBB!!!
This has been
such an eventful and emotional first day at Beetle for me. I
mean betel. I
mean Be-till. Beat-ill? but I digress.
Thank you Bruce
for filling me in on what has been going on.
It sounds like
a whole lot of
people are MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY AND SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ON
THIS LIST. Please, have a little perspective. So, now that everything is
crumbling it's
the PERFECT time for a change of direction, no?
All those in
favor, don't respond.
I'm glad so many
of you agree with me.
Ok, now let's
move on. How about a Topic of the Day?
I propose:
William Burroughs. One burning question
among many: How can I get
in touch with
him????
Let me tell you a
story. It's a bizarre, strange, hauntingly morbid story
that I actually
shouldn't tell you in "public".
Well here's the "cleaned up"
version: Mr.
Burroughs and I have some, er, shall we say CHARACTERISTICS in
common. I had never thought much of him as a writer
or knew much about him
until I read
"the Western Lands" and learned that he studied the EXACT same
thing as me in
college and made references on several occasions in interviews
and the like to
obscure subjects that I thought were my private territory,
such as the
mysterious ways of the Axolotl. among many others. Well, I don't
want to bore you,
so if you want more details, e-mail me :
Marioka7@aol.com
(or get myself in trouble by
revealing too much)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:17:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?
In-Reply-To: <199705271840.OAA24405@everest>
leon is
travelling and not sure he has access to modem.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:35:04 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA,
Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Subject: Poem I discovered this weekend
So much pain and
angst going down. I thought I'd share a
poem from someone I
discovered who
REALLY has problems...
Paul
********************************************************************************
DIRTY DIAPERS
I could never
understand how the Germans
could hate us,
Mother said, just because
we were Jewish,
but what's even harder
for me to
understand is that you could
hate me just
because I'm your mother.
Someone has to
tell you to go to bed early,
& if I don't,
& you fall asleep in class, your teacher
could tell a
social worker from a child abuse agency,
& they could
take you away from me,
which might not
be so bad if it was
only for a weekend,
because I could use
a rest from you,
but if it was for
a longer period
of time, it'd slowly kill me.
I hope you know
that you were a planned child,
your father &
I really wanted you, even though
we weren't sure
what we were getting.
You weren't an
accident, though before
you were toilet
trained you had plenty
of those. And I had to clean it up,
though I never
once held it against you,
it just took you
a while to develop
the proper
sphincter control, & I thought
that when you got
older you could make it up
to me, &
clean the bathroom for me once in a while.
---Hal Sirowitz
from the Book
"Mother Said, Poems by
Hal
Sirowitz"
Copyright(c)1996
by Hal Sirowitz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:35:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Well, my day and
some suggestions have gotten the better of me.
Several people
backchanneled me about my proposed letter to the
library at
Lowell. I have recieved some good
suggestions, and
one of them is to
not send the letter. Others have posted
to
the list their
points.
My concern is how
can we find out what is in the archives, and
if there, who put
it there. That is to say, What did Gerry
put
there? Because the archive is closed, I fail to see
how we can
find out, except
to ask.
I am going to
rework slightly the letter tonight, but intend to
send it tomorrow.
Any more comments
are welcome.
Peace,
--------------------------------------------------------
Name: R. Bentz
Kirby
E-mail: R. Bentz
Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>
Date: 05/27/97
Time: 16:30:47
This message was
sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage
NetManage -
delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:05:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
In a message
dated 97-05-27 10:08:31 EDT, you write:
<< The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
>
Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
>
Bentz Kirby Phil
Chaput
>
Jerry Cimino Paul
Maher
>
Wes Lundberg Attila
Gyenis
>
Mike Cakebread Ann Charters
>>
I'd rather be on
the side I am. Phil said he's bringing the beer and Ann's
making the potato
salad.
stretching out,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:26:04 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Poem I discovered this weekend
wow that was
fabulous and such a breath of fresh levity in the otherwise
torpid and moldy
environment that Beet-ill has been on this balmy day in the
murder capital of
our nation, otherwise known as 'DC'.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:38:18 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Beats out West
This summer I'm
doing an independent study on 20th Century Western
American Lit, and
as my specialty is the beats; I see a lot of connections
between the
ideals expressed by the beats and those expressed by the
writers I'm
reading. Aside from political concerns
such as environment
and rejection of
an outside, displaced authority; there's that idea of
personal, inner
freedom as well as the idea of man as a supreme being in
an individual
universe which I think Kerouac expressed a lot through his
singular
narrative skills. I'm making my way
through Zane Grey for back
ground then into
Thomas McGuane (who I've not read but read about), Jim
Harrison, Edward
Abbey, John Nichols, and Ivan Doig. Any
thoughts? Esp.
on McGuane,
Harrison, and Abbey.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:29:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Poem I discovered this weekend
"....& I thought
that when you got older you could make
it up
to me, & clean the bathroom for me
once in a while."
Thanks Paul - perfect voice; I can hear
my voice overlaid on my
mother's!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:42:14 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Mamma said there'd be days like this...
>
>Copyright(c)1996
by Hal Sirowitz
>
>
If I remember
correctly (which I very well might not), I _think_ this poet
was at Hiram
College my freshman year in honor of our first poetry slam....
I'm 67.84% sure
he was the one...what I do remember correctly is that the
B-Side (our
student-run coffee shop where the slam was held) was
_incredibly_
crowded that night, I was sitting in the middle of the floor,
surrounded by
people I hardly knew (only as a freshman at Hiram can this
happen :). Kat Snider Blackbird was the other visiting
poet helping us out
with this
indenture, & the male visiting poet kept reading these "Mother
Said" poems
which had us all cracking up...Sirowitz's been on MTV before,
hasn't he?
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:24:52 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: who is your dad? and letter to
kerouac
At 04:32 PM
5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi
>I'm a lurker
turning active now. I have a quick
question for phil who
>is your dad
is mentioned in any of Kerouac's books or any such thing?
>It seems that
a lot of people here have known each other for years
>through
families even. I never met any of the
beats but I was going to
>try to meet
Ginsburg and as luck has it the year I'm moving back to New
>York he dies.
Peter, My father
isn't in any of Kerouac's books because my father only got
to know Jack in
the last three or four years of his life. I have heard
through Billy
Koumantzelis (Jack's close friend) that Jack was writing a lot
during his trip
to NY to be on the William Buckley Show. Jack was with my
dad, Billy and
Tony Sampas so that stuff may turn up some day. They grew up
in the same parts
of town and with the same background (French Canadian
Catholic) but
they didn't meet until Tony Sampas introduced him at the
infamous
"Nicky's" bar around 1966. My dad's first words to Jack were,
"Always glad
to buy a starving author a drink." They became great friends
and I venture to
say some of the best times of my dad's life were the few
years he spent
with Jack. My dad is mentioned in several biographies though.
His first name is
Joe and the best compliment Jack ever paid him is when he
said he was the
second best driver he ever knew. Classy company. Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:12:56 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Ann Charters & James Stauffer
May 27,
1997
Yesterday James Stauffer wrote:
"In his [Gerry Nicosia's] last
backchannel to me he was explaining
how essentially
he is responsible for everything Ann Charters knows about
Jack. She speaks respectfully of him, he can't
mention her without
remembering that
she didn't take his side with Jan. Maybe
Jan was an angel,
or maybe she was
hard to deal with--I don't know, but it seems to me that
Ann's failure to
join Jan's cause doesn't just wipe out her biographical and
editing
achievements."
Methinks Mr. Stauffer doth protest too
much.
While he always complains about the
sound and fury of the estate
battle, he here
throws more gasoline on the fire.
That is not what I said to him in my
backchannel.
AND YES, FOLKS, I'M KEEPING MY WORD
ABOUT NO MORE ESTATE FIGHT
POSTINGS, BUT
THIS REGARDS A SERIOUS MISQUOTE, AND IT NEEDS ANSWERING.
After all, Ann Charters probably
subscribes to the Beat-List Digest,
which is sent
free to all friends of John Sampas.
(That's a joke.)
In reality, she may well end up reading
some of the things that are
written/said here.
Mr. Stauffer sent me a very leading and
provocative question, in
fact a kind of
taunt:
Why, he asked, didn't you quote more
from Ann Charters in your
biography of
Kerouac MEMORY BABE, since Ann is the preeminent Kerouac scholar?
I
backchanneled him because I really don't want to print critical
things here about
Ann, or about anyone. Ann, incidentally,
often disses me
with the best of
them. In the last interview of hers I
read in the LONDON
TELEGRAPH, she
refers to "Gerald Nicosia ... that tiresome wannabe."
Anyway, now I'll have to print my
backchannel to James publicly,
since, while
hardly flattering of Ann, it is nowhere near as dismissive of
her as he makes
out.
The point I was trying to make to him
is that, when I began my
biography of
Kerouac in 1977, Ann was not the world-renowned Kerouac
authority she is
now. Rather than rehash Ann's biography,
I preferred to
learn about
Kerouac by going on the road, 50,000 miles worth, and
interviewing 350
people who knew him, as well as reading through thousands
of pages of Beat
archives in about a dozen libraries.
I was also trying to make the point
that since 1977 I have lived in
Beat communities
of writers, have gone to 100's of poetry readings, given
readings of my
own poetry with many Beat poets such as Bob Kaufman, David
Meltzer, and
Harold Norse, and staged dozens of readings for others. I
number at least
two dozen Beat writers as close friends, and I doubt Ann can
claim that--and I
don't mean "friend" as someone she sees at an occasional
Beat conference
or writes to for a contribution to an anthology. I mean
people who come
to my home regularly, spill wine in and on my piano, piss
off my wife, etc.
I never publicly claimed to have taught
Ann anything about Kerouac,
though I suspect
she learned a few things from MEMORY BABE.
She quoted from
MEMORY BABE, in
fact, when she spoke at the Rencontre Internationale Jack
Kerouac in Quebec
City in 1987. And she referred to it as
"the most factual
account of
Kerouac's life" in THE BEAT READER.
Before she began calling me
a "tiresome
wannabe," she even wrote a blurb for MEMORY BABE that went
"Gerald
Nicosia's dedicated scholarship in MEMORY BABE has added important
new material that
significantly expands our knowledge of Kerouac and his
literary
achievement."
Do I wish she'd go away as a Kerouac
scholar? No. I just wish
she'd stop acting
as if I should go away.
Herewith my backchannel to Mr. Stauffer
(the part responding to his
question about
why there is not more reference to Ann Charter's work in
MEMORY BABE):
"You must remember that when I
started MEMORY BABE in 1977, Ann's
was not the
"best known" Kerouac biography, it was the ONLY Kerouac
biography. As such, it was very thin--she had
interviewed 20
people--whereas I
went out and interviewed 350 people. My
knowledge of
Kerouac's life
became encyclopedic and far more thorough than Ann's. To
this day, she
can't tell Janine Pommy Vega from Joanna McClure--at the San
Francisco Book
Fair, last November, when WOMEN OF THE BEAT GENERATION was
being promoted
with a big panel (Ann was the moderator), Ann misintroduced
Joanna McClure,
Michael's wife and a well-known poet herself, as Janine
Pommy Vega.
I have lived, hung out with, written
and read my own poetry among
the Beats for the
last 20 years, and I hardly felt there was much Ann could
clue me in on
about the Beat world--she who has spent most of her life in
academia.
Her editing, which has brought her such a
big name, only began in
the late 1980's,
and then took off like a rocket when Sampas offered her
dozens of
projects. In 1977, she was not known as
a Beat editor at all."
--Ge
rald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:10:26 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arno Selhorst
<catweasel@USA.NET>
Subject: More substantial talk less name-calling.
Comments: To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IBM.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
Hey out there!
Now, since August
1995 I am a more or less quiet participant of our list
here. I was
always suprised by the cautious and friendly manner in which all
of you held your
comments about all kinds of Beat related topics. But now,
alas, this spirit
got quite spoiled.
BUT!
Then there are
also new members to our community here like Maya Gorton who
just signed on!
They might be the next talk-a-lots here. And they are the
ones I put all my
hopes into, because they weren't here when the sh.. hit
the fan.
Welcome Maya!
Talking about
Burroughs` Infiltration Theory one can come up with the most
horrible visions
of the world we live in today. Wired ran an article on
Information
Warfare in it's latest issue. In this article the author claimed
that to conquer a
country in this time you will first have to infiltrate
this country with
precise misinformation to melt down their own social
bounds within
their society (sounds a lot like Burroughs talking here). Just
tell them that
their entire country will go down the drain and chaos might
start to fire up.
"Those whom the I-War Gods destroy, they first make mad."
(Wired p.228 May
`97).
I start to worry
about Burroughs next visions about society...
Take care everyone
and stop the name
calling in favour for some constructive beat discussion.
Yours Arno
Selhorst
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:47:48 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: who are we?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.ULT.3.96.970527102829.29914A-100000@xx.acs.appstate.e du>
WHO,
WHO, are we?
i think is a bit
wrong to leave the list
'cuz the amount
of posts
first u must have
an ethical way of life
to justify yr decision
this american
gothic saga
'bout the estate
is sad awright
but the
rude men
are also
in a
little cest
i think
as
a poster to the
list
as
a spontanenous
writer
as
thinking machine
yrs rinaldo
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:08:55 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: WHO, are
WHO,
WHO, are we?
i think is a bit
wrong to leave the list
'cuz the amount
of posts
this american
gothic saga
'bout the estate
is sad awright
but the
rude men
are also
in a
little chest
yrs rinaldo
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:08:40 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: WHO,
WHO,
WHO, are we?
i think is a bit
wrong to leave the list
'cuz the amount
of posts
i think
as
a poster to the
list
as
a spontaneous
writer
as
a thinking
machine
yrs rinaldo
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:23:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Beats out West
Alex,
Consider reading Gretel Ehrlich's
"The Solace of Open Spaces" and "A
Match to the
Heart" (1994). Both great books and great western writing.
Edward Abbey is a
complete treat; particularly enjoyed "Desert Solitaire".
And listen to James McMurtry's music
(Larry's son!) while your reading.
The latest John McPhee reader has a
fine essay about brand
inspectors and
rustling in Nevada.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:43:09 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Contest
"Is the accuser always holy
now? Were they born this morning as
clean as God's
fingers?"
An autographed copy of MEMORY BABE
will be sent to the first person
to correctly
identify the source of this quote, both author and work.
One-part answers
do not qualify.
Contest open to all except relatives
and employees of Gerald Nicosia.
Those who already own an autographed
copy of MEMORY BABE are asked
not to submit
entries. Coaching friends is acceptable.
Winner will be notified by email.
--
Gerald
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:45:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Desolation Peak
My wife and I are
thinking of making a trip to Washington State and may take
some time to hike
up Desolation Trail to Desolation Peak.
There's a terrific
8 page article
complete with photo's by John Suiter in the March 1997 edition
of Shambhala Sun.
Has anyone on the
list ever done this? I'm curious as to
details. How long
did it take you,
how much time did you spend, where did you stay, etc.
An interesting
point in the article is Suiter notes of all the fire lookouts
that were in use
over the years, only two remain today - Jack's on Desolation
Peak and the one
on Sourdough Mountain occupied by Gary Snyder and Philip
Whalen. Supposedly all the rest are gone - replaced
by aircraft overflights.
Please send
details if you have any.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:47:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: who is your dad? and letter to
kerouac
woa. I saw Ginsberg read some poetry @Realityfest,
this thing they had when
i went to
Columbia. This guy sitting next to me
puked on the floor but other
than that it was
a pleasant experience, from the fragmented images i remember
from it.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:50:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: who is your dad? and letter to
kerouac
Phil Chaput said:
"The best
compliment Jack ever paid him is when he said he was the second
best driver he
ever knew."
And I wonder who
the first best driver was? ;^>
Hey, Phil, did
you say earlier Joe was one of Jack's pallbearers? Tell us
about that if
there's a story there.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:55:28 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: A quickie question
alright, I'm new
here and basically new to Beat so this may be a stupid
question, but I
was reading the portable Beat reader and an excerpt from
junk had a
character named Jack that killed somebody with a pipe and a
faucet. Is that
Mr. Kerouac?
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:12:18 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Guidelines for Discourse
Over the past
month or so, beat-l listmembers have been subjected to a
barrage of
querulous and acrimonius posts concerning the Jack Kerouac
Estate and Gerry
Nicosia's archive. Some of these posts
have even
degenerated into
name calling and accusations of unethical or even
illegal
activities. As a result of the
tonethese posts have taken,
several
lismembers have unsubscribed and others are threatening to do
so. Lawsuits have also been threatened. For the health of the list and
for the
protection of the rights of all listmembers, I am establing the
following
guidelines for discussion of Beat-l: 1)
Copyrighted material
should not be
posted to the list without permission (fair use rules
applying) nor
should private correspondence be posted without permission
from the author;
2) Listmembers will not accuse each other of various
crimes and
misdemeanors on the Beat-l list (What you do privately is
your own
business.); 3) Listmembers will refrain from flames, character
attacks, and
personal insults in their posts to Beat-l (Again if you
feel compelled to
such measures please email your adversary directly.)
Those who violate
these rules will be subject to having their posts
blockedfrom the
list. If some of you find such
prescriptive guidelines
objectionable, I
assure you I found it even more objectionable to have
to propose
them. I am doing my best to save this
list and welcome your
suggestions
either on the list or privately.
William Gargan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:09:54 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Guidelines
Please excuse the
typos in my last posting.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:18:32 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse
At 06:12 PM
5/27/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Over the past
month or so, beat-l listmembers have been subjected to a
>barrage of querulous
and acrimonius posts concerning the Jack Kerouac
>Estate and
Gerry Nicosia's archive. Some of these
posts have even
>degenerated
into name calling and accusations of unethical or even
>illegal
activities. As a result of the
tonethese posts have taken,
>several
lismembers have unsubscribed and others are threatening to do
>so. Lawsuits have also been threatened. For the health of the list and
>for the
protection of the rights of all listmembers, I am establing the
>following
guidelines for discussion of Beat-l: 1)
Copyrighted material
>should not be
posted to the list without permission (fair use rules
>applying) nor
should private correspondence be posted without permission
>from the
author; 2) Listmembers will not accuse each other of various
>crimes and
misdemeanors on the Beat-l list (What you do privately is
>your own
business.); 3) Listmembers will refrain from flames, character
>attacks, and
personal insults in their posts to Beat-l (Again if you
>feel
compelled to such measures please email your adversary directly.)
>Those who
violate these rules will be subject to having their posts
>blockedfrom
the list. If some of you find such
prescriptive guidelines
>objectionable,
I assure you I found it even more objectionable to have
>to propose
them. I am doing my best to save this
list and welcome your
>suggestions
either on the list or privately.
William Gargan
>
>
Amen.
-- Gerald
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:23:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: SAMPAS WHO? Re: a calm request
Smart went crazy.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:32:23 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L
I first met Dean
not long after BEAT-L and I split up. I had just gotten over a
serious estate
battle that I won't bother to talk about, except that it had
something to do
with the miserably weary split-up feeling that the list was
dead...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:44:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Some Old Guy
I'm water falling
down a sidewalk
through some
tunnel
thinking about my
hanging
hang over
when this old guy
with a cane and a
cap
that red
miserable old
bastard
passed me by
with words
to the effect
it's slippery out
here son
and some slippery
light
fleetingly filled
the tunnel
to illuminate the
shephard
and I felt like
sheep
keep sliding.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:03:20 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats out West
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.ULT.3.96.970527173104.14181B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>
IM HO HO HO,
McGuane is Key West literary conch fritters, now Montana
cowboy
blues--parallel elf-proclaimed outlaw writer like Willy Nelson, but
not really Beat
(which is peculiarly caf=E9 Fran=E7ais in some ways), all dr=
ugs
and refried
beans, no Zen and green tea, no Doc Benway really, more
Parrothead than
Deadhead, more Margaritaville than North Beach & Greenwich
Village, more
island in the sun than road on the go, more Kesian than
Kerouacian, but
I'd be interested in what you say anyway.
(My favorite
McGuane thing is
an essay, "The Longest Silence," his permit fish story,
where he's not
such a nouveau metaphor freak.) // John M.
>This summer
I'm doing an independent study on 20th Century Western
>American Lit,
and as my specialty is the beats; I see a lot of connections
>between the
ideals expressed by the beats and those expressed by the
>writers I'm
reading. Aside from political concerns
such as environment
>and rejection
of an outside, displaced authority; there's that idea of
>personal,
inner freedom as well as the idea of man as a supreme being in
>an individual
universe which I think Kerouac expressed a lot through his
>singular
narrative skills. I'm making my way
through Zane Grey for back
>ground then
into Thomas McGuane (who I've not read but read about), Jim
>Harrison,
Edward Abbey, John Nichols, and Ivan Doig.
Any thoughts? Esp.
>on McGuane,
Harrison, and Abbey.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:07:38 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
I Used to
Remember Heaven
Purpose with a
feeling, Feeling with a purpose.
One of those is
right, and yesterday I could remember;
The shadows on
the wall, that Socrates saw,
The quantum
dream, we ARE each other's dream,
Not just in them.
Dream me, I dream you, watcha gonna do?
No, I clearly
remember that I used to know so much more
Than I know
now. My six year old daughter says,
Daddy will you
tell me about God, I seem to be
Forgetting her
now, I used to remember heaven.
Oh yes, and so
did I Sarah, so did I.
Draft No.1
May 27, 1997
R. Bentz Kirby
Columbia, SC
8:04P.M.
God bless this
list and my children,
Peace,
I ain't signing
off, but I am gonna beat a gone world.
--------------------------------------------------------
Name: R. Bentz
Kirby
E-mail: R. Bentz
Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>
Date: 05/27/97
Time: 19:59:40
This message was
sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage
NetManage -
delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:12:13 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Marie,
Do you have any idea when Leon will be
rejoining us?
Thanks,
Bruce
--------------------------
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:17:41 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L
In-Reply-To: <009B4E5D.2A677520.9@kenyon.edu>
On Tue, 27 May
1997, MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:
> I first met
Dean not long after BEAT-L and I split up. I had just gotten over
a
> serious
estate battle that I won't bother to talk about, except that it had
> something to
do with the miserably weary split-up feeling that the list was
> dead...
Doesn't Jack in
this intro sound much like Salinger, beginning of _Catcher
in the Rye_? Now
has this been mentioned before, or am I imagining a
discussion that
never was?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:22:33 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: setting record straight
May 27, 1997
Yesterday James
Stauffer wrote:
"My recollection is that Gerry
Nicosia brought this fight to this list."
No, James. Joe Grant started some posts here back in
April. I did not tell
him to do this,
nor did I know he was doing it. Joe then
emailed me and
told me that, in
response to his posts, Mr. Anstee and Mr. Chaput were
saying some
rather scathing things about me.
Hearing that--especially after having
helped Rod Anstee with his
Kerouac projects
for 13 years--made me decide to jump on here and tell my
own side of the
story.
The next thing I knew I was being
charged with everything from
attacking the
Lowell Kerouac Committee to selling stolen goods.
Just setting the record straight. Not flaming.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:38:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.
In a message
dated 97-05-26 23:23:50 EDT, you write:
<<
Tomorrow, Tuesday, let's have
everyone on the list post one poem, story, or
idea about beat literature. >>
Beat-L:
I don't write,
just edit, but a friend handed me this poem yesterday. I
thought it fit.
Pam Plymell
not finding your
stone
under wet, long, half-dim
grass
my hand drops
lilac
for
allen ginsberg,
who is
not buried in cherry valley
F. Bjornson
Stock
Memorial Day
1997
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:42:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Lowell author-Jay Pendergast
At 06:49 AM
5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-26 00:01:30 EDT, you write:
>
>> May
25,1997
>> Lowell author and friend of Jack Kerouac, Jay
Pendergast died unexpectedly
>> this afternoon. Jay had just written a story
about Jack in Paul Maher's
>> premiere issue of the "Kerouac
Quarterly" his painting that Jack had given
>> him personally what I called "Beatnik
Jesus" was on the cover. He was an
>> educator that taught English, Irish and
American Literature as well as
>> History, Writing and Anthropology courses.
May 27, 1997
I taped a long interview with Jay
Pendergast on his escapades with
Kerouac. This is one of the 300 tapes currently under
seal, and
deteriorating for
lack of proper care, at U Mass, Lowell.
Alas.
-- Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:38:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dirk Vulgate <BIGDUCK2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thugs
In a message
dated 97-05-27 12:11:33 EDT, you write:
<< I hope the past week has been
instructive to you all.
We have seen the three chief
representatives of Mr. Sampas's point
of view--Phil Chaput, Rod Anstee, and Paul
Maher--employ the tactics of
thugs.
I do not know whether any of these
three has been hired by Mr.
Sampas to
Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia
>>
You are the biggest hypocrite I've ever
listened to rant bullshit
anywhere. You are
truly a sick person, Nicosia.
You have misled people here with your
particular style of exaggaration
and lies. You
have set back the cause of the preservation of Jack's works
irreparably. You
have bullied your way around the BeatList, just as you've
bullied your way
into every event where people had the audacity not to invite
you.
No one owes you anything, Nicosia. For
that matter, until the
"fraudulent
will" is proven (and I for one believe it is a forgery), John
Sampas doesn't
owe anyone anything either. People who own and collect
Kerouac's papers,
whether they're named Johnny Depp or Rod Anstee, also owe
you nothing, nor
do they owe anything to the world. No one in this entire
battle is doing
anything illegal - no one!
Even John Sampas, who obviously cares
nothing for Kerouac's work and is
only trying to
wring as many dollars out of DeadJack as he can is not a
criminal - at
least, it hasn't been proven yet that he is. He demonstrated
his bad taste
with the pathetic San Francisco Blues, his gigantic ego with
all his constant
credit lines stamped on everything having anything to do
with Kerouac, and
his lack of a clue with the choices of artists and
insulting
performances on the putrid "kicks joy darkness" "tribute"
CD. He
disgusts me, but
you make me angry, because you've insinuated yourself into
the forefront of
this issue, pushing everyone else out of the picture.
Look at the people you've alienated and
hurt while constantly invoking
so-called
Christian ethics and always signing off with the bitterly
sarcastic, phony,
Nixon-plastic "Best, Gerry Nicosia." These people,
including Levi,
Attila, Rod and Phil are all human beings--good human beings,
and they all have
one thing in common: They once were your allies, and now
they are not.
But they're all too good to be your
enemies. They know better. They
don't play your
game of dividing people up into "All-Evil" or "All-Holy"
camps. These men,
and the trail of bodies you've left behind you in your life
pulling the same
stunts with former friends, they all know that life is not
black and white.
They can find gray areas. That's where most of us live our
lives every day.
No one wants to work with you. No one
wants to see you gain "control" of
Kerouac's
archives. What "manifest destiny" has your fevered brain dreamed up
to make you
believe it's okay to stampede over American literature and worry
about the
consequences later? Your rampant ego and gigantic clay feet take up
all the room
there is for rational discourse. I hope you fall on your own
sword, I really
do.
I'm sorry that by writing this letter
there will be a new flame war on
the list. But
someone had to stand up and say we are ALL human here. Nicosia
is not a god;
he's not even an unflawed authority on Kerouac. No one is.
If anyone here did some research into the
history of Nicosia's
relationships
with Anstee, Charters, Kovic and others he's mentioned in his
vomit of posts,
you would understand that all his protests are simply a
Wizard of Oz
curtain to keep people from seeing the wreckage of his own past.
I issue these opinions under my right to
free speech, without cursing or
lying. I will not
post again on this issue no matter what the response is
because this is
all I want to say. Anyone who wants to comment directly to me
is welcome. But
I'm not going to clog up the list with defenses of my
position or
futile arguments.
This I vow, D. Vulgate, 5-27-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:50:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
At 06:12 PM
5/27/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Over the past
month or so, beat-l listmembers have been subjected to a
>barrage of
querulous and acrimonius posts concerning the Jack Kerouac
>Estate and
Gerry Nicosia's archive. Some of these
posts have even
>degenerated
into name calling and accusations of unethical or even
>illegal
activities. As a result of the
tonethese posts have taken,
>several
lismembers have unsubscribed and others are threatening to do
>so. Lawsuits have also been threatened. For the health of the list and
>for the
protection of the rights of all listmembers, I am establing the
>following
guidelines for discussion of Beat-l: 1)
Copyrighted material
>should not be
posted to the list without permission (fair use rules
>applying) nor
should private correspondence be posted without permission
>from the
author; 2) Listmembers will not accuse each other of various
>crimes and
misdemeanors on the Beat-l list (What you do privately is
>your own
business.); 3) Listmembers will refrain from flames, character
>attacks, and
personal insults in their posts to Beat-l (Again if you
>feel
compelled to such measures please email your adversary directly.)
>Those who
violate these rules will be subject to having their posts
>blockedfrom
the list. If some of you find such
prescriptive guidelines
>objectionable,
I assure you I found it even more objectionable to have
>to propose
them. I am doing my best to save this
list and welcome your
>suggestions
either on the list or privately.
William Gargan
>
>This is
really a shame that it had to come to this. I want you to realize
Bill that I
stopped all the bullshit after you POLITELY asked about it over
five days ago and
I have been bombarded with insults since that time and
have even been
called a coward (a new one for me). I still remained silent.
Please feel free
to go over my posts since that time so you can understand
that I had no
part in this since you and several others POLITELY asked all
involved to cool
it and I said I would out of respect to the listmembers. I
had one post
denying that I had ever called Gerry a thief and in return for
that denial I
received a threat from Gerry that he would sue me. I can
understand that
if someone threatens to sue the beat-l (namely Nicosia) you
have to take some
kind of action but I feel that Jack and Allen would roll
over in their
graves if they knew the beat list was now CENSORED. It is a
sad day indeed
and I myself am considering signing off. I will see you folks
in Nashua when I
pay my final respects to Jan Kerouac.
Phil Chaput
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:04:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
Bad list members
must stand in the cyber corner!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:03:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: no you don't
Phil:
You can't sign
off until we see whether you got a basketball game or
not. "Chink" (hitting nothing but chain
here).
I am only 43, so
I figure, I got an advantage here somewhere!!
:-)
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:01:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Thugs
In-Reply-To:
<970527203743_156389426@emout18.mail.aol.com>
On Tue, 27 May
1997, Dirk Vulgate wrote:
> He
demonstrated
> his bad
taste with the pathetic San Francisco Blues, his gigantic ego with
> all his
constant credit lines stamped on everything having anything to do
> with
Kerouac, and his lack of a clue with the choices of artists and
> insulting
performances on the putrid "kicks joy darkness" "tribute"
CD.
Okay. What's
"San Francisco Blues"? As for jkd, which performances did you
think were
insulting (besides the Aerosmith guy)?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:07:46 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Beat list
BEAT-L
There ain't no
bodies to hide,
There ain't no
blood to wipe,
Nothing but
reputation,
And that won't
matter in 100 years.
BEAT-L, the
rumors of your death
Are not true,
The rumors of
your suicide are lies,
The rumors of
your demise are all lies.
In my eyes, the
BEAT is BEAT,
And when it
BEATS, its heart,
Can drown it all
in an immense
Jug of wine, not
whine, that
We all must drink
and it becomes
Our blood at
last.
Do not leave, if
you do, you will miss it!!
BEAT go on, BEAT
go on.
Bentz Kirby
May 27, 1997 9:07
PM
Columbia, SC
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:10:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tipper Quigg
<quigg@INFORAMP.NET>
Subject: is this about the Beats???
I
literally signed on to this list tonight, in hopes that I can find
some people to
discuss my favorite authors..But instead I get all this flame
war stuff, out of
the 7 post I recieved 6 of them were about legal
battles...I was
just wondering, is some legal page? is
there one that has
to do with the
writing? Is this flaming just a rare
occurance or is this
pretty common
because as much as I love Kerouac and Burroughs, I don't think
I can sit through
this stuff...Maybe I'm over reacting but I've since this
kinda stuff on
other lists...Please say there are people out there who will
talk to me...
help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:10:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97052718584517@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
thanks, bill.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:11:03 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199705280012.UAA11057@everest>
>Marie,
>
> Do you have any idea when Leon will be
rejoining us?
_________
hey there bruce:
he'll be gone for two (or more?) weeks, had plans to hook
up service and
post to us, wasn't sure.
all is well,
knowing leon,
he's having a hell of a good time.
mc
z
z
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:13:57 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Thugs
... you've
insinuated yourself into
>the forefront
of this issue, pushing everyone else out of the picture....
> I'm sorry that by writing this letter
there will be a new flame war on
>the list....
> This I vow, D. Vulgate, 5-27-97
>
Dear Mr. Vulgate:
I certainly had a right to post
"Thugs," after having been the only
person on this
Beat-List to be accused of crimes (and don't say I accused
John Sampas of
actual crimes unless you can go back and find an actual
posting,
please--no more misquotes and rumors). I
was the only person on
this list to have
my privacy and my copyright in unpublished, personal
correspondence
infringed upon.
Happy I would have been had Jan Kerouac
lived to take her case to
trial by
herself. This thing has taken up too
much of my time, energy,
emotion, and
money, and I wish somebody else was in a position to carry on
Jan's fight. But as her literary executor, she put the
torch in my hand,
and I'm doing my
best to carry it for her. Yes, it's
taken a heavy toll on
my life, and put
a lot of strain on our household, but my life is not a
"wreckage"
by any means.
And, listen, good sir, Mr. Gargan has
asked people to stop using
emotional words,
such as your letter is full of: "stunts," "rampant ego,"
"gigantic
clay feet," "sarcastic," "phony,"
"Nixon-phony," "bully," "trail
of bodies,"
"play your game," "stampede over," "Wizard of Oz
curtain," etc. etc.
I used to teach rhetoric, good sir, and
your letter is a virtual
textbook of what
they used to call "appeal to emotion." So please stop
conning us and
saying you don't want to create a new flame war.
What, are you upset that Nicosia has
stopped taking the bait?
No, sir, I'm not going to flame at
you. If that disappoints you,
I'm sorry.
I'm only going to ask you to observe
the guidelines which good Mr.
Gargan has wisely
set down.
Best always (and I mean it), Gerry
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:58:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
In a message
dated 97-05-26 18:59:32 EDT, you write:
<< Anstee
already purchased major items from the Kerouac Archive for
his private collection, which have gone up
tremendously in value >>
Gerry:
Please let us
know what major items Rod Anstee purchased from Mr. Sampas?
Thanks -
JW
WRB
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:53:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
In a message
dated 97-05-26 18:23:37 EDT, you write:
<< In fact, I did not like the idea of selling
the archive to Weinberg,
since he would give me no guarantee about
keeping the archive together, >>
Gerry:
I do not believe
that negotiations that we have had about the sale of your
archive is the
business of the Beat-L. It is my business and your business
only. If you want
to discuss my business in any open forum like the Beat-L ,
please ask me
first.
I will clarify
one point, however, in reference to your statement quoted
above.
I made the
decision not to purchase your archive because in my opinion at the
time, your asking
price was simply too high. You never refused to sell me
your archive
because I would not guarantee to keep it together. If I had
agreed to your
asking price, you would have gladly cashed my check....
Of course, I know
that Rod was the person who first brought this matter up to
this forum when he quoted from your letter to him....Yes
- Rod is a very
good friend of
mine but I do not think he should have quoted from your
private
correspondence....
JW
WRB
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:42:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: how annoying some of these whiny people
are!
Who gives a rat's
ass about your stupid opinions? no one wants to read a
whole e-mail of
just you whining about and insulting Mr. Nicosia. Yes, I'm
talking to you,
but i deleted your message so fast i lost the address.
Anyway. That is
so boring and stupid. So there. Have a SUPER day.
Can we talk about
something OTHER than Jack Kerouac now? PLEASE?? I think the
fact that no one
is fighting over Burroughs' stuff attests to his superiority
over any of the
other beats. Both as an artist and as a
person. At the risk
of starting
another argument, I will venture to say that I never did like
that "on the
road" crap anyway. (I went to the
festival in Lowell, Mass and
had a great time
but simply prefer burroughs) ok,
bye.........marioka7@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:26:18 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
.... I
>had one post
denying that I had ever called Gerry a thief and in return for
>that denial I
received a threat from Gerry that he would sue me. I can
>understand
that if someone threatens to sue the beat-l (namely Nicosia) you
>have to take
some kind of action but I feel that Jack and Allen would roll
>over in their
graves if they knew the beat list was now CENSORED. It is a
>sad day
indeed and I myself am considering signing off. I will see you folks
>in Nashua
when I pay my final respects to Jan Kerouac.
>Phil Chaput
>
C'mon, Phil: May 27, 1997
I never said you called me a thief, I
said you accused me of
breaking the law
in selling Kerouac xeroxes to Lowell, but you never
produced the
statute that made this a crime. To
accuse someone of a crime
falsely is
libel. Since when is it censorship for
Mr. Gargan to ask people
to desist from
libel? The fact that libel is a criminal
act is the law of
the land, Phil,
not Mr. Gargan's whimsy. And he's also
asking people to
stop breaking the
law by publishing my private correspondence here.
You want a license to break the
law? Fine, go somewhere else. We
don't need any
lawbreakers here.
Actually I think Jack already rolled over in his grave when his
volume of
SELECTED LETTERS was censored.
And it's curious you and Mr. Sampas got
invited to Jan's funeral,
when I
didn't. How much time did you guys spend
with her in those last
five, hard,
4-dialyis-a-day years? Did you ever
watch her do a dialysis, Phil?
Just wondering. I did.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:15:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
MORE OXY THAN
MORON wrote:
> Bad list
members must stand in the cyber corner!
ROTFLMAO, and please, I didn't mean it, it was
my evil twin, George
Bush.
Hell, I wasn't
even on the grassy knoll, I was up in this damn book
building. Shit all these damn bullet casings came flying by the
window, and I
coulda sworn to a God if there was one that Oliver Stone
was there, but,
it could a been PeeWee Herman, there were some stains on
em. Anyway, I saw it all with my out of body
self. It was on an astral
projection from
my 6th Grade English class in Easley SC.
I'm still
pissed that they
called off the trip to the county courthouse to see the
Indian
arrowheads. But shit man, I was
punished. I got stung by 5
yellow jackets
when God and my mother saw me out playing instead of
watching the Jack
Kennedy funeral, so I will stand in the cyber corner
rather than have
to deal with those yellow jackets again.
Oh yeah, Pretty
Boy Floyd wasn't there either.
It was not beat.
HA, HA, HA , HA,
I am not paranoid
either, I just hate corners!
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:21:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!
In a message
dated 97-05-26 23:17:24 EDT, you write:
<< You
are a very low human being indeed. I won't ever trust another word you say.
This is dispicable! >>
Hey, Jerry C:
I for one am now
fed up with the personal attacks against Rod or anyone on
this list. It's
one thing to disagree - it's another thing for a grown man to
start with this
bullshit.
Do what Webmaster
Bill Gargan asked you to do - take it outside and make it
private.
You are ruining the
community spirit we ahave all tried to build up the last
few years.
Go start your own
list about the archive controversy.
People who were
once active on this list are now afraid to post anything
here.
They don't
realize that the barks of the big boys are in reality just
whimpers...
Alot of fine
folks feel intimidated by your remarks and Gerry's and Jo
Grant's and Rod's
remarks....
Let's get back to
why this list was formed by Bill Gargan through the
cooperation of
Brooklyn College -
To promote lively
discussions about Beat literature and Beat writers.....
To call someone
you do not know a low human being is bad news....
Please go away
and take your insults with you....
Jeffrey H.
Weinberg
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:29:00 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
May 27, 1997
To Bill Gargan
and the Good Folk on the Beat-L:
Just when we're trying to get things
down to a calm, civilized
dialogue again,
there appears a Mr. Dirk Vulgate, ranting and raving at a
fevered emotional
pitch.
DID ANYONE NOTICE THE UNCANNY
RESEMBLANCE OF THE NEWLY ARRIVED MR.
VULGATE'S
RHETORICAL STRUCTURES, PHRASING, AND VOCABULARY TO THAT OF THE
RECENTLY DEPARTED
PAUL MAHER?
Both Mr. Maher and Mr. Vulgate have a
way of screaming "I don't owe
you..."
"No one owes you..."
Both of them like to throw the words
"sick" and "hypocrite" around a
lot.
It's funny, but a lot of people don't
realize their language,
sentence
structure, etc., has a signature that is as recognizable to the
trained eye as a
person's handwriting.
Even more curious, this fellow Vulgate,
who hates me so much he
wants me to
"fall on my sword," tells me he "believes the will is a
forgery."
Is that so we will know for sure it
couldn't be Paul Maher, who has
made a point of
saying he knows the will is genuine?
Nothing he says in the rest of his
letter gibes with his belief that
the will is a
forgery.
So is the next step that we now have
impostors in silly masks
stepping on to
the stage to keep the flame war going?
Mr. Gargan, please put a quick end to
this.
The rules of civilized discourse now
apply, whether your name is
Paul Maher, Dirk
Vulgate, or Jimmy Poodlewhorfer (to plagiarize JK).
No one says you can't talk about the
estate fight. No one says you
can't say you
dislike Gerry Nicosia. Only have a
reason and a logical
explanation. Don't start throwing criminal accusations at
me (or anyone
else) or
attacking somebody's personal life.
If that's censorship, I think Jack
Kerouac would applaud it.
Jack, after all, changed names in his
novels and even descriptions
so as not to hurt
people's feelings.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:36:07 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: signoff
Dear Beat-L
Members:
Before all 200+
of you sign off, please remember that Beat-L T-shirt list.
I ordered enough
shirts to cover that list and I certainly can't use 200
shirts myself!
The Beat-L
T-shirt with artwork by S. Clay Wilson will be ready to ship in
approx.
2-3 weeks.
I kept my part of
the bargain by fronting the money to pay Wilson and to pay
for the shirts to
be printed up....Please keep your part of the bargain
also...
Thanks -
Jeffrey Weinberg
Beat-L T-shirt
Dept.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:43:19 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L
MORE OXY THAN
MORON wrote:
>
> I first met
Dean not long after BEAT-L and I split up. I had just gotten over
a
> serious
estate battle that I won't bother to talk about, except that it had
> something to
do with the miserably weary split-up feeling that the list was
> dead...
This may be the
best post on the JKEK (The Jack Kerouac Estate
Kontroversy). I found myself filled with nostalgia for the
Old Beat-L
today. 25-40 posts aday. Most on topics relevant to the list. No
legal wars, not
too much self-indulgent bullshit (well there was Ron
Whitehead, but he
was relatively entitled.) Maybe I'll
just sign off
and read the
archives. At least it won't take two hours a day to go
through even with
nuking anything by some nameless folks.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:35:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> Who gives a
rat's ass about your stupid opinions? no one wants to read a
> whole e-mail
of just you whining about and insulting Mr. Nicosia. Yes, I'm
> talking to
you, but i deleted your message so fast i lost the address.
> Anyway. That
is so boring and stupid. So there. Have a SUPER day.
> Can we talk
about something OTHER than Jack Kerouac now? PLEASE?? I think the
> fact that no
one is fighting over Burroughs' stuff attests to his superiority
> over any of
the other beats. Both as an artist and
as a person. At the risk
> of starting
another argument, I will venture to say that I never did like
> that
"on the road" crap anyway. (I
went to the festival in Lowell, Mass and
> had a great
time but simply prefer burroughs) ok,
>
bye.........marioka7@aol.com
hey i am willing
to fight over burroughs stuff the guy is till making
it.
I just ordered my
new tee shirt shot with holes. I hope the guy with
holster on hip,
steel in hand and words strung like fire rides rides and
rides. I once was giving wsb a ride and was trying
to remember the
words to frankie
and johnnie and he knew all of them , the old jimmy
rodgers version,
did very well.
look at
www.exoticaa.com new stuff. and i like it and i am a woman, and
a beat, yet i
don't care if my wife appreciates or not because he is my
husband and
better just stick to his memorizing of numbers. heahha had
way too much
estate stuff, waytoomuch
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:39:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: signoff
Jeffrey Weinberg
wrote:
>
> Dear Beat-L
Members:
>
> Before all
200+ of you sign off, please remember that Beat-L T-shirt list.
> I ordered
enough shirts to cover that list and I certainly can't use 200
> shirts
myself!
>
> The Beat-L
T-shirt with artwork by S. Clay Wilson will be ready to ship in
> approx.
> 2-3 weeks.
>
> I kept my
part of the bargain by fronting the money to pay Wilson and to pay
> for the
shirts to be printed up....Please keep your part of the bargain
> also...
>
> Thanks -
>
> Jeffrey
Weinberg
> Beat-L
T-shirt Dept.
Can we see it
yet? i am so excited, hey rah
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:54:03 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Beats out West
Alex Howard
wrote:
I'm making my way through Zane Grey for back
> ground then
into Thomas McGuane (who I've not read but read about), Jim
> Harrison,
Edward Abbey, John Nichols, and Ivan Doig.
Any thoughts? Esp.
> on McGuane,
Harrison, and Abbey.
A great subject,
fiction of the west and you have some good things to
work on
here. Mitchell has already replied on
McGuane. Harrison is my
favorite of the
group. Certainly not exclusively a
Western writer, like
McGuane, lots of
Key West and Upper Peninsula. But his
western stuff is
wonderful for
me. Not leading edge stylistically, but
very tight clean
writing. Dalva is a wonderful novel and one of the
richest female
figures in a
modern man's novel. Revenge and and the
other novella's
probably my
favorites tho. Very spare and
strong. Much better than the
movies made from
them which seem bloated. Harrison is
like a latter day
Hemingway. He writes beautifully about food, hunting
dogs, women and
drinking and
doping. Sort of like Hemingway without
the suicidal edge
and less
sentimental. His Michigan stuff does less for me but that may
be because I have
less feel for the country and people.
Nichols is
marvelously
funny. Abbey is a little to
ecclesiastical for my taste.
Have fun with
this one
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:55:09 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Reply to message
from Marioka7@AOL.COM of Tue, 27 May
>Can we talk
about something OTHER than Jack Kerouac now? PLEASE?? I think the
>fact that no
one is fighting over Burroughs' stuff attests to his superiority
>over any of
the other beats. Both as an artist and
as a person. At the risk
Burroughs is
still kicking; wouldn't be as much fun talking about him! :)
Truthfully, I've
never had a chance (yet) to read anything by Burroughs,
but when (if!) I
ever finish _Go_, _Naked Lunch_ is next on my list.
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:06:03 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: "we put the 'dis' in disfunctional!
:)"
Dear Gerry (or
anyone else who can help):
In a post eons
ago (well, probably only 2 days ago, but time gets warped
("let's do
the time warp again....) in CyberSpace) you mentioned a bunch of
never-been-published
Kerouac stuff. One title stuck out to
me, _
Visions of
Lucien_. Can you (or anyone) give me any
more info on this one,
what it's about,
when it was written, etc etc? E-mail
privately if you'd
like,
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Thanks!
Diane.
(Was Frank N.
Furter Beat? Or did he just bea...ah,
never mind! ;)
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:28:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
At 07:29 PM
5/27/97 -0700, you wrote:
> May 27, 1997
>To Bill
Gargan and the Good Folk on the Beat-L:
>
> Just when we're trying to get things
down to a calm, civilized
>dialogue
again, there appears a Mr. Dirk Vulgate, ranting and raving at a
>fevered
emotional pitch.
> DID ANYONE NOTICE THE UNCANNY
RESEMBLANCE OF THE NEWLY ARRIVED MR.
>VULGATE'S
RHETORICAL STRUCTURES, PHRASING, AND VOCABULARY TO THAT OF THE
>RECENTLY
DEPARTED PAUL MAHER?
> Both Mr. Maher and Mr. Vulgate have a
way of screaming "I don't owe
>you..."
"No one owes you..."
> Both of them like to throw the words
"sick" and "hypocrite" around a
>lot.
> It's funny, but a lot of people don't
realize their language,
>sentence structure,
etc., has a signature that is as recognizable to the
>trained eye
as a person's handwriting.
> Even more curious, this fellow Vulgate,
who hates me so much he
>wants me to
"fall on my sword," tells me he "believes the will is a forgery."
> Is that so we will know for sure it
couldn't be Paul Maher, who has
>made a point
of saying he knows the will is genuine?
> Nothing he says in the rest of his
letter gibes with his belief that
>the will is a
forgery.
> So is the next step that we now have
impostors in silly masks
>stepping on
to the stage to keep the flame war going?
> Mr. Gargan, please put a quick end to
this.
> The rules of civilized discourse now
apply, whether your name is
>Paul Maher,
Dirk Vulgate, or Jimmy Poodlewhorfer (to plagiarize JK).
> No one says you can't talk about the
estate fight. No one says you
>can't say you
dislike Gerry Nicosia. Only have a
reason and a logical
>explanation. Don't start throwing criminal accusations at
me (or anyone
>else) or
attacking somebody's personal life.
> If that's censorship, I think Jack
Kerouac would applaud it.
> Jack, after all, changed names in his
novels and even descriptions
>so as not to
hurt people's feelings.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
>What's your
point Nicosia? if I am the author of something I will not hide
behind a
"mask"? I don't have "proof" the will is genuine no more
than you
do the will is a
forgery. I just think it is the real thing. I simply don't
see what would be
so "funny" about an invalid woman's (who has suffered a
stroke and is
elderly)signature. What is the basis in logic underlying your
conclusion?
Signed Paul, the
"convicted thief", or just call me
Lord Jim or
Raskolnikov...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:15:37 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: is this about the Beats???
Tipper Quigg
wrote:
>
> I literally signed on to this list
tonight, in hopes that I can find
> some people
to discuss my favorite authors..But instead I get all this flame
> war stuff,
out of the 7 post I recieved 6 of them were about legal
> battles...I
was just wondering, is some legal page?
is there one that has
> to do with
the writing? Is this flaming just a rare
occurance or is this
> pretty
common because as much as I love Kerouac and Burroughs, I don't think
> I can sit
through this stuff...Maybe I'm over reacting but I've since this
> kinda stuff
on other lists...Please say there are people out there who will
> talk to
me...
>
> help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
Tipper,
Welcome. Just hang in there for a while and all the
nastiness will pass.
There are a lot of creative people here who
love literature. Deep down,
everyone knows
that the vision of the beats will not be lost in hassles
over estate
matters. Join in, pick a topic, invite
others to discuss it.
People will talk to you.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:34:51 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> Can we talk
about something OTHER than Jack Kerouac now? PLEASE?? I think the
> fact that no
one is fighting over Burroughs' stuff attests to his superiority
> over any of
the other beats. Both as an artist and
as a person.
Whoa. I have to say that if we are talking about
the superority of the
one of the beats,
my vote is in there for Allen Ginsberg.
He was by far
the greatest poet
of the twentieth century, and his voice affected the
whole stratus of
socity from politics to music. He even
tirelessly
promoted the
works of other beat writers. I must
admit, though, that
since I've joined
this list, I've come to see beauty in Kerouac's words
that I never
fully perceived before. I'm rereading On
the Road and I
just bought Dr.
Sax. I also was completely taken by the
oneness of the
universe
described in a poem someone posted last week, the name fails me
right now but it
was something about Golden Eternity. As
for Burroughs,
I would have to
read a lot more to discuss his work in any detail, but I
think it's great
that you prefer him and there are many others here that
can discuss him
with you. Meanwhile, I'm still keeping
Ginsberg at the
top of my list.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:52:34 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thugs
D vulgate,
get real.
At 08:38 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-27 12:11:33 EDT, you write:
>
><< I hope the past week has been instructive
to you all.
> We have seen the three chief
representatives of Mr. Sampas's point
> of
view--Phil Chaput, Rod Anstee, and Paul Maher--employ the tactics of
>thugs.
> I do not know whether any of these
three has been hired by Mr.
> Sampas to
> Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia
> >>
>
> You are the biggest hypocrite I've ever
listened to rant bullshit
>anywhere. You
are truly a sick person, Nicosia.
> You have misled people here with your
particular style of exaggaration
>and lies. You
have set back the cause of the preservation of Jack's works
>irreparably.
You have bullied your way around the BeatList, just as you've
>bullied your
way into every event where people had the audacity not to invite
>you.
> No
one owes you anything, Nicosia. For that matter, until the
>"fraudulent
will" is proven (and I for one believe it is a forgery), John
>Sampas
doesn't owe anyone anything either. People who own and collect
>Kerouac's
papers, whether they're named Johnny Depp or Rod Anstee, also owe
>you nothing,
nor do they owe anything to the world. No one in this entire
>battle is
doing anything illegal - no one!
> Even John Sampas, who obviously cares
nothing for Kerouac's work and is
>only trying
to wring as many dollars out of DeadJack as he can is not a
>criminal - at
least, it hasn't been proven yet that he is. He demonstrated
>his bad taste
with the pathetic San Francisco Blues, his gigantic ego with
>all his
constant credit lines stamped on everything having anything to do
>with Kerouac,
and his lack of a clue with the choices of artists and
>insulting
performances on the putrid "kicks joy darkness" "tribute"
CD. He
>disgusts me,
but you make me angry, because you've insinuated yourself into
>the forefront
of this issue, pushing everyone else out of the picture.
> Look at the people you've alienated and
hurt while constantly invoking
>so-called
Christian ethics and always signing off with the bitterly
>sarcastic,
phony, Nixon-plastic "Best, Gerry Nicosia." These people,
>including
Levi, Attila, Rod and Phil are all human beings--good human beings,
>and they all
have one thing in common: They once were your allies, and now
>they are not.
> But they're all too good to be your
enemies. They know better. They
>don't play
your game of dividing people up into "All-Evil" or
"All-Holy"
>camps. These
men, and the trail of bodies you've left behind you in your life
>pulling the
same stunts with former friends, they all know that life is not
>black and
white. They can find gray areas. That's where most of us live our
>lives every
day.
> No one wants to work with you. No one
wants to see you gain "control" of
>Kerouac's
archives. What "manifest destiny" has your fevered brain dreamed up
>to make you
believe it's okay to stampede over American literature and worry
>about the
consequences later? Your rampant ego and gigantic clay feet take up
>all the room
there is for rational discourse. I hope you fall on your own
>sword, I
really do.
> I'm sorry that by writing this letter
there will be a new flame war on
>the list. But
someone had to stand up and say we are ALL human here. Nicosia
>is not a god;
he's not even an unflawed authority on Kerouac. No one is.
> If anyone here did some research into the
history of Nicosia's
>relationships
with Anstee, Charters, Kovic and others he's mentioned in his
>vomit of
posts, you would understand that all his protests are simply a
>Wizard of Oz
curtain to keep people from seeing the wreckage of his own past.
> I issue these opinions under my right to
free speech, without cursing or
>lying. I will
not post again on this issue no matter what the response is
>because this
is all I want to say. Anyone who wants to comment directly to me
>is welcome.
But I'm not going to clog up the list with defenses of my
>position or
futile arguments.
> This I vow, D. Vulgate, 5-27-97
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:54:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Maya Gorton
wrote:
> >
>
> > Can we
talk about something OTHER than Jack Kerouac now? PLEASE?? I think
the
> > fact
that no one is fighting over Burroughs' stuff attests to his
superiority
> > over
any of the other beats. Both as an
artist and as a person.
>
> Whoa. I have to say that if we are talking about
the superority of the
> one of the
beats, my vote is in there for Allen Ginsberg.
He was by far
> the greatest
poet of the twentieth century, and his voice affected the
> whole
stratus of socity from politics to music.
He even tirelessly
> promoted the
works of other beat writers. I must
admit, though, that
> since I've
joined this list, I've come to see beauty in Kerouac's words
> that I never
fully perceived before. I'm rereading On
the Road and I
> just bought
Dr. Sax. I also was completely taken by
the oneness of the
> universe
described in a poem someone posted last week, the name fails me
> right now
but it was something about Golden Eternity.
As for Burroughs,
> I would have
to read a lot more to discuss his work in any detail, but I
> think it's
great that you prefer him and there are many others here that
> can discuss
him with you. Meanwhile, I'm still
keeping Ginsberg at the
> top of my
list.
>
> DC
my votes, as if
anyone cares, are as follows
tie for first -
burroughs and neal.
tie for third -
ginsberg and kerouac
fifth - corso
tie for sixth -
everyone else.
it seems to me
from the little i've gathered so far that burroughs was
the intellectual
and anthropological force and neal was the motion and
go go go behind
everything else.
just my wooden
nickel
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:04:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Check out this link
I am building my
link beat page. Found this site.
http://www.mindinmotion.com/kerouac/bums.html
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:07:46 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> May 27, 1997
> To Bill
Gargan and the Good Folk on the Beat-L:
>
> Just when we're trying to get things
down to a calm, civilized
> dialogue
again, there appears a Mr. Dirk Vulgate, ranting and raving at a
> fevered
emotional pitch.
> (snipped)
Gerry,
Haven't you ever
read something, and then thought, "Wow, that's so far
off base it's not
even worth the time it would take to respond to it?"
Just let some
stuff go by...I hate to change the sports analogies here
from basketball
to baseball, but if the ball is not even in the strike
zone, let it go
by without swinging.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:40:16 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: More wisdom from Lew Welch
from
"POSTGRADUATE COURSES"
LAW
He who chooses
for the chicken
gives bounty for
the Bob-Cat
Lew Welch
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:34:13 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: is this about the Beats???
Tipper,
Any relation to Gore? Sorry, couldn't
resist. Please stick around.
There is
regularly lots of Beat scholarship as well as fascinating anecdotes
from people who
talked the talk adn walked the walk. I'm smarter by miles
having been here
now about ten months I think. The recent wars are we
believe a
temporary abberation soon to disappear......Welcome and tell us
why and how you
came.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:51:34 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: "we put the 'dis' in
disfunctional! :)"
At 11:06 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Gerry
(or anyone else who can help):
>
>In a post
eons ago (well, probably only 2 days ago, but time gets warped
>("let's
do the time warp again....) in CyberSpace) you mentioned a bunch of
>never-been-published
Kerouac stuff. One title stuck out to
me, _
>Visions of
Lucien_. Can you (or anyone) give me any
more info on this one,
>what it's
about, when it was written, etc etc?
E-mail privately if you'd
>like,
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>Thanks!
>
>Diane.
>
>(Was Frank N.
Furter Beat? Or did he just bea...ah,
never mind! ;)
>
>--
>"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
>
--Jack Kerouac
>Diane Marie
Homza
>ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
Dear Diane, May 27, 1997
It's been a long tiring day, as we try
to get the last few
disorderlies here
to agree that libel and copyright infringement should not
be part of the
Beat List.
I think we're winning.
VISIONS OF LUCIEN is an unfinished
book, which compiles all JK's
visions of his
friend Lucien Carr, just as VISIONS OF CODY compiled all his
visions of Neal
Cassady--no particular order, just the mind's association.
Jack had an idea to do a book tribute
to each of his close friends,
but never found
time, or lived long enough.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:53:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: is this about the Beats???
Tipper,
I'd suggest you
relax a little bit and take in what is said for a while.
You've caught the tail end of a "modest'
flame war going on right now, but I
promise you if
you hang in there for a bit you'll learn more about the Beats
than you'll ever
learn anywhere else. If you have speific
questions, ask
them, they'll get
answered, by people who know, by people who were there at
the time and
people who love the Beats and their works.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:05:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
Gerry,
Do you really
think BIGDUCK2 (Dirk Vulgate) is really Paul Maher?
I kinda thought
this person might be Rod Anstee as both BIGDUCK2 and Rod are
on AOL. Paul was on Pipeline although I guess he
could have gotten himself a
new ISP.
I backchanneled
BIGDUCK2 asking who he is but he cameback w/"why should it
matter" and
declined to comment. Kind of makes you
wonder about someone who
no one has ever
heard of before making a post like that, doesn't it?
Has anyone ever
heard of Dirk Vulgate? And Dirk, if you
really are a real
person, please
identify yourself as such. I don't want
to insult a real
person by
claiming they don't exist, but how can you insult a phantom?
Wondering...
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:09:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>I will
venture to say I never did like that "on the road" crap anyway.
Maya!
Good Lord! Talk about fighin' words... If you're looking to get people's
attention this is
a good way to do it!
So OK, I'll
bite... what makes WSB "superior" to the other Beats?
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:10:20 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
At 09:53 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-26 18:23:37 EDT, you write:
>
><< In fact, I did not like the idea of selling
the archive to Weinberg,
> since he
would give me no guarantee about keeping the archive together, >>
>
>Gerry:
>
>I do not
believe that negotiations that we have had about the sale of your
>archive is
the business of the Beat-L. It is my business and your business
>only. If you
want to discuss my business in any open forum like the Beat-L ,
>please ask me
first.
>
>I will
clarify one point, however, in reference to your statement quoted
>above.
>
>I made the
decision not to purchase your archive because in my opinion at the
>time, your
asking price was simply too high. You never refused to sell me
>your archive
because I would not guarantee to keep it together. If I had
>agreed to
your asking price, you would have gladly cashed my check....
>
>Of course, I
know that Rod was the person who first brought this matter up to
>this
forum when he quoted from your letter to
him....Yes - Rod is a very
>good friend
of mine but I do not think he should have quoted from your
>private
correspondence....
>JW
>WRB
>
Dear
Jeffrey, May 27, 1997
You say our negotiations shouldn't be
public business, and then you
go ahead and
discuss them here on the Beat-List anyway.
Jeffrey, how do you know I would have
cashed your check? You
offered me
fifteen thousand dollars and then I never heard from you
again--for years.
As a matter of fact, your unwillingness
to answer my questions or
even to get back
to me bothered me a lot, and made me think I'd better start
looking at
libraries again.
That's as far as I'm going with this
here.
I've alluded to our rocky past. I am still hoping our present will
see fruitful
projects for both of us.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:17:37 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
At 09:58 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-26 18:59:32 EDT, you write:
>
><<
Anstee already purchased major items from the Kerouac Archive for
> his private
collection, which have gone up tremendously in value >>
>
>
>Gerry:
>
>Please let us
know what major items Rod Anstee purchased from Mr. Sampas?
>
>Thanks -
>JW
>WRB
>
Dear
Jeffrey: May 27, 1997
I was alluding to the long singlespaced
typed letter to John Clellon
Holmes, which was
actually a first draft of a section of VISIONS OF
CODY--which
apparently Kerouac didn't send but kept to use in his own
manuscript of the
new novel; and also a handwritten unsent letter to G.J.
Apostolos, an
important boyhood friend, revealing an important unknown
biographical
glimpse of the 19 or 20 year old Kerouac.
For Kerouac not to
have mailed a
letter gives it the importance of a notebook or journal
entry--it was
obviously a slice of his own life he wanted to hold onto.
Kerouac letters of this importance have
been selling for ten
thousand dollars
each at a recent San Francisco rare books fair, and from
what Mr. Anstee
told me, he paid a lot less for them when he purchased them
from Mr. Sampas
(thru you).
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:27:06 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
At 01:05 AM
5/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Gerry,
>
>Do you really
think BIGDUCK2 (Dirk Vulgate) is really Paul Maher?
>
>I kinda
thought this person might be Rod Anstee as both BIGDUCK2 and Rod are
>on AOL. Paul was on Pipeline although I guess he
could have gotten himself a
>new ISP.
>
>I
backchanneled BIGDUCK2 asking who he is but he cameback w/"why should it
>matter"
and declined to comment. Kind of makes
you wonder about someone who
>no one has
ever heard of before making a post like that, doesn't it?
>
>Has anyone
ever heard of Dirk Vulgate? And Dirk, if
you really are a real
>person,
please identify yourself as such. I
don't want to insult a real
>person by
claiming they don't exist, but how can you insult a phantom?
>
>Wondering...
>
>
>Jerry Cimino
>
Jerry, May 27, 1997
A big part of my master's degree was
linguistics, so I'm pretty good
at picking up
mannerisms of syntax and phrasing.
Anstee's syntax is
elegant,
restrained, with a frequent little sarcastic flip at the end.
Maher's is crude,
frontal assault. Unless Anstee is more a
master of
imitation than I
give him credit for, that was not dear Rod.
Best, Gerry
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:50:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
In a message
dated 97-05-28 01:43:22 EDT, you write:
<< Kerouac letters of this importance have been
selling for ten
thousand dollars each at a recent San
Francisco rare books fair, and >>
wow!
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:44:05 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
In-Reply-To:
<970527170308_-1900877250@emout12.mail.aol.com>
At 05:05 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-27 10:08:31 EDT, you write:
>
><< The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
> > Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
> > Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
> > Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
> > Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
> > Mike Cakebread Ann Charters >>
>
>I'd rather be
on the side I am. Phil said he's bringing the beer and Ann's
>making the
potato salad.
>
>stretching
out, Attila
>
and i will be the
proverbial devils advocate cheerleader ;P~
--
Lisa M. Rabey
Internet and
Computer Consultant
San Francisco,
California
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
**************************************
General
man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:06:17 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Arthur Maynard
<prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: is this about the Beats???
At 12:15 AM
5/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Tipper Quigg
wrote:
>>
>> I literally signed on to this list
tonight, in hopes that I can find
>> some
people to discuss my favorite authors..But instead I get all this flame
>> war
stuff, out of the 7 post I recieved 6 of them were about legal
>>
battles...I was just wondering, is some legal page? is there one that has
>> to do
with the writing? Is this flaming just a
rare occurance or is this
>> pretty
common because as much as I love Kerouac and Burroughs, I don't think
>> I can
sit through this stuff...Maybe I'm over reacting but I've since this
>> kinda
stuff on other lists...Please say there are people out there who will
>> talk to
me...
>>
>> help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
>
>Tipper,
>
>Welcome. Just hang in there for a while and all the
nastiness will pass.
> There are a
lot of creative people here who love literature. Deep down,
>everyone
knows that the vision of the beats will not be lost in hassles
>over estate
matters. Join in, pick a topic, invite
others to discuss it.
> People will
talk to you.
>
>DC
>
Roger that.
For example, how
come nobody ever seems to mention Maggie Cassidy?
Struck me between
the eyes close to 20 years ago, and I'm still struck.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:36:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Jan's service
At 06:26 PM
5/27/97 -0700, you wrote:
>.... I
>>had one
post denying that I had ever called Gerry a thief and in return for
>>that
denial I received a threat from Gerry that he would sue me. I can
>>understand
that if someone threatens to sue the beat-l (namely Nicosia) you
>>have to
take some kind of action but I feel that Jack and Allen would roll
>>over in
their graves if they knew the beat list was now CENSORED. It is a
>>sad day
indeed and I myself am considering signing off. I will see you folks
>>in Nashua
when I pay my final respects to Jan Kerouac.
> Actually I think Jack already rolled
over in his grave when his
>volume of
SELECTED LETTERS was censored.
> And it's curious you and Mr. Sampas got
invited to Jan's funeral,
>when I
didn't. How much time did you guys spend
with her in those last
>five, hard,
4-dialyis-a-day years? Did you ever
watch her do a dialysis, Phil?
> Just wondering. I did.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
>
>Gerry, what
makes you think that John would get invited. I haven't been
invited but I still
would like to go to pay my respects. I met Jan when she
came to Lowell
and we had a nice conversation. I got some great photos of
her at the
dedication. She was friendly to me and I to her. Why would you
need an
invitation to go to a memorial service. Is it a private service? If
it is let me know
and I will respect anyones wishes on this. But I just
assumed anyone
could go to pay their respects to Jan. Inform us on the list
if you know about
it.Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:47:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Here is another
poem. I found it amongst some papers in a file
I was working on,
so I figured I would post it and see if
anyone liked it,
didn't like it, heard something etc.
Ebony, pure and
holy.
Truth resides in
eyes
So timeless, so
true.
Here is the point
And the departure
--
Blessed by God,
annointed;
For what?
Torture,
heartache, despair?
All manner of
human pain?
I try but
senseless it is.
Finding what?
Love?
Losing what? Love?
Something that is
incapable of passion;
Something that is
incapable of Love;
Something that is
incapable of survival?
Ebony, pure and
holy,
Looking into
Linda's eyes.
April 12, 1995
Columbia, SC
Bentz Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------
Name: R. Bentz
Kirby
E-mail: R. Bentz
Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>
Date: 05/28/97
Time: 02:42:49
This message was
sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage
NetManage -
delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:52:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: no you don't
At 09:03 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Phil:
>
>You can't
sign off until we see whether you got a basketball game or
>not. "Chink" (hitting nothing but chain
here).
>
>I am only 43,
so I figure, I got an advantage here somewhere!!
Born July 11,
1953 You?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:03:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
Jerry Cimino
wrote:
>
> Gerry,
>
> Do you
really think BIGDUCK2 (Dirk Vulgate) is really Paul Maher?
>
> I kinda
thought this person might be Rod Anstee as both BIGDUCK2 and Rod are
> on AOL. Paul was on Pipeline although I guess he
could have gotten himself a
> new ISP.
>
> I
backchanneled BIGDUCK2 asking who he is but he cameback w/"why should it
> matter"
and declined to comment. Kind of makes
you wonder about someone who
> no one has
ever heard of before making a post like that, doesn't it?
>
> Has anyone
ever heard of Dirk Vulgate? And Dirk, if
you really are a real
> person,
please identify yourself as such. I
don't want to insult a real
> person by
claiming they don't exist, but how can you insult a phantom?
>
> Wondering...
>
> Jerry Cimino
perhaps Dick is a
phantom ... phantomish talk is not a unique thing for
certain Beat
writers.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:07:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?
Lisa M. Rabey
wrote:
>
> At 05:05 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a
message dated 97-05-27 10:08:31 EDT, you write:
> >
>
><< The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators
> >
> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee
> >
> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput
> >
> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher
> >
> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis
> >
> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters >>
> >
> >I'd
rather be on the side I am. Phil said he's bringing the beer and Ann's
> >making
the potato salad.
> >
>
>stretching out, Attila
> >
>
> and i will
be the proverbial devils advocate cheerleader ;P~
>
I'll just play
the devil ...
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 06:10:26 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: let's put the fun back in dysfunction!
In-Reply-To: <970528010935_-128901973@emout07.mail.aol.com>
after down
loading 57 messages of vitriolic energy.
anyone just want
to grab a book, or whatever, and party with me?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:15:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> after down
loading 57 messages of vitriolic energy.
>
> anyone just
want to grab a book, or whatever, and party with me?
I'll be at a
truck stop out Crawford by the Interstate....reading
something and
smoking too many cigarettes and drinking too much coffee.
Feel free to drop
by. I think this morning I'll go to the
one called
Russell's.
Starting to get
memories back on that blue room scene from others.
gradually piecing
together. Derek says we should at least
have
cyber-coffee.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:18:56 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James & Anita Brush
<brush@AINET.COM>
Subject: Re: please sign off Beat-L
RACE --- wrote:
> Marie
Countryman wrote:
> >
> > after
down loading 57 messages of vitriolic energy.
> >
> > anyone
just want to grab a book, or whatever, and party with me?
>
> I'll be at a
truck stop out Crawford by the Interstate....reading
> something
and smoking too many cigarettes and drinking too much
> coffee.
>
> Feel free to
drop by. I think this morning I'll go to
the one called
> Russell's.
>
> Starting to
get memories back on that blue room scene from others.
> gradually
piecing together. Derek says we should
at least have
>
cyber-coffee.
>
> david rhaesa
Please sign us
off Beat-L, thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:25:55 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
Does anyone know
some history oh Webster Hall in NYC's Lower East Side? I
remember reading
about it in the Mina Loy biography. A few years back, Allen
Ginsberg had his
play KADDISH staged in a playhouse roughly in the same area,
does anyone
remember if that was Webster Hall? BTW, I had to admit, that play
was a stinker.
But what brings me to this point is that I thought Ken Babbs
said that Ken
Kesey's play TWISTER will be opening in NYC at the Webster Hall
in about a half
month or so. The book and video, published by Viking, will be
out in about the
same time, in one package (book and video all in one). Any
enlightment
appreciated......Dave B. PS, am going
to see BEAT-L member David
Ohle in Columbus
today with James Grauholtz to look at unpublished manuscripts
of Bill Burroughs
Jr. if you have any questions to pass along I'd be glad to
ask, thanks (Dave
B.)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:31:57 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Moritz Rossbach
<moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
Subject: Re: Not Ashamed/Musing
In-Reply-To:
<970526211959_-129048208@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Hi folks,
i am not ashamed
and i am not a whiny (!?), but would you please stop
dragging germans/nazis/jews/hitler
into this !
for quite a while
now, i noticed that Americans seem to be obsessed by
comparing
anything to the 3rd reich. i am not a historian ever and surely
too young for any
experience with the 3rd reich, but there is no
comparison to
these times with your little wars ! if
you want to make far
off comparisons,
how about the slavery-times ? or discrimination of the
indians ?
stay at home
folks !
just a friendly
remark from an slightly annoyed german.
moritz rossbach
saarbruecken, germany
On Mon, 26 May
1997, Jerry Cimino wrote:
> I don't
agree with a lot of what you say in your "not ashamed post" and I'm
> glad YOU
used the "Good German" analogy and not me as I don't want to be
> acused of calling
anyone a Nazi/"Adolph Hitler apologist" or anything else.
> And I laughed out loud w/regard to your
lightbulb joke!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:26:18 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: Copyright Facts
For Authors and
Estate Warriors.... The Library of Congress has an
excellent on-line
library of copyright information and laws. I got it from
their gohper a
couple of years ago, but I assume there is a homepage now.
It shouldn't be
hard to find.
Mark Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:12:07 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
>after down
loading 57 messages of vitriolic energy.
>
>anyone just
want to grab a book, or whatever, and party with me?
Hey, how about
grabbing a handful of poems and shuffling on up to
Plattsburgh on
June 13th/14th for a big poetry reading, wine, creative talk
and a bit of
poetic partying? Anyone else interested.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:30:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
In-Reply-To: <009B4EC0.D8120A60.16@kenyon.edu>
On Wed, 28 May
1997, MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:
PS, am going to see BEAT-L member David
Ohle in Columbus today with James Grauholtz to
look at unpublished
manuscripts of Bill Burroughs Jr. if you have
any questions to pass
along I'd be glad to ask, thanks (Dave B.)
Just if you can
let us know what you see. I think Bill
Jr. had a lot of
of unrecognized
potential and would like to read more from him.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:52:00 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Dirk Vulgate or Paul Maher?
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 27 May 1997 19:29:00 -0700
from
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Mr. Vulgate has
said that he will not post anything to the list on this matter
again. Gerry, your reply has been posted. Can we call it even now and can I h
ave your word
that if there's anything more to say on this matter, you and Mr.
Vulgate will deal
with it privately? These flames are
tearing the list aprat.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:53:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
Michael,
My geographic brain isn't working to
well this morning. . . Plattsburg
where? If it's not too far from me I might hope on
the ol' motorcycle and
make a weekend
trip of it. . .
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:06:35 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 27 May 1997 22:10:20 -0700
from
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
On Tue, 27 May
1997 22:10:20 -0700 Gerald Nicosia said:
>At 09:53 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a
message dated 97-05-26 18:23:37 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< In fact, I did not like the idea of selling
the archive to Weinberg,
>> since he
would give me no guarantee about keeping the archive together, >>
>>
>>Gerry:
>>
>>I do not
believe that negotiations that we have had about the sale of your
>>archive
is the business of the Beat-L. It is my business and your business
>>only. If
you want to discuss my business in any open forum like the Beat-L ,
>>please
ask me first.
>>
>>I will
clarify one point, however, in reference to your statement quoted
>>above.
>>
>>I made
the decision not to purchase your archive because in my opinion at the
>>time,
your asking price was simply too high. You never refused to sell me
>>your
archive because I would not guarantee to keep it together. If I had
>>agreed to
your asking price, you would have gladly cashed my check....
>>
>>Of
course, I know that Rod was the person who first brought this matter up to
>>this
forum when he quoted from your letter to
him....Yes - Rod is a very
>>good
friend of mine but I do not think he should have quoted from your
>>private
correspondence....
>>JW
>>WRB
>>
>Dear
Jeffrey, May 27, 1997
>
> You say our negotiations shouldn't be
public business, and then you
>go ahead and
discuss them here on the Beat-List anyway.
> Jeffrey, how do you know I would have
cashed your check? You
>offered me
fifteen thousand dollars and then I never heard from you
>again--for
years.
> As a matter of fact, your unwillingness
to answer my questions or
>even to get
back to me bothered me a lot, and made me think I'd better start
>looking at
libraries again.
> That's as far as I'm going with this
here.
> I've alluded to our rocky past. I am still hoping our present will
>see fruitful
projects for both of us.
> Best, Gerry Nicosia
Gerry and Jeff, these are just the types of
discussions that should be conduct
ed off the
list. Your business is between the two
of you. People on the list
have no reason to
view these posts. I'm sure you both
agree and will cooperate
in future posts. I post to reply to the list in order to
encourage others who
have comments and
replies to specific parties to take those posts of the list.
Thank you for your cooperation.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:15:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying!
I think wsb
explored further and deeper the limits of what can be done with
words....he
manipulated them and juxtaposed them to create new associative
pathways, not
just poetry but Original Thought.
Although I like the poetry
of the other
beats, it's their prose i find less-than-satisfying. Somehow it
doesn't make my
synapses snap, crackle and pop like Burroughs' does.
Although I enjoy the "moods" of
Kerouac and Ginsberg, (sad, nostalgic,
despairing,
ironic, gleeful, etc.) I prefer the biting sarcasm and
intersecting
plateaus of humor, disgust, bitterness, futility and hope in
Burroughs'
work. Not to mention the intellectual
stimulation i get from
reading him,
which ultimately, inevitably, climaxes into a physical expulsion
of
words/paintings/music by me......
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:25:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: pome and thoughts of the day
In-Reply-To: <199705271840.OAA24405@everest>
diane di Prima
"anti
copyright"
from Revolution
Art Letters
THE REVOLUTION OF
EVERYDAY LIFE
1
if we are going
to make anything happen
then we are going
to have to get down to it ourselves
because nobody is
going to do if for us
if we have any
power at all it is in each other
not politics,
commodity
or our lives
being sold out for product
and so called
'progress', the
unchecked consumption
of
land/spirit/life, not any one thing:
art nature
politics business religion or family
once they are not
the daily expressions of life
with complete participation
desire existence
we end up not
thinking for ourselves,
as person, as
community, as intimate participant
in the living
woven pattern of the universe
2
this is a call to
end materialist vision
the failed
consciousness that continues to play
along a death fault
this is the
revolution of the event of living now
living everyday
as if it mattered
the tragedy of
modern mainstream civilization
is the
externalization of the physical universe
we must have
faith that we are not stuck
isolated in
superiority
alienated from
the world around us
but involved by
our every breath
in the
cooperative design of all living things
to meet coincide
superimpose
so that the
inside and outside are the same
that the
substance of yourself is nothing but yourself
in common with
everything
every human being
is an artist
just by being
alive
3
the possibility
of destruction is always implicit
in the act of
creation
the greatest
enemy of individual freedom
is the individual:
we cannot
be free unless we
are willing to sacrifice at least some
of our own
interests and desires
to guarantee the
freedom of others
4
we will move in
the shadows and traces
of an
impenetrable jungle
moon loop ripple
that haunts you forever
there are things
that can be known
the integrity of
the entire poetic corpus
becomes an open
force field to use
of action and
perception
as secret(sacred)
image ofthe pre-
being received
and heard by a post-individual
across all the
intervening years
continuity --
'ceremonial time'
make use of what
you can
what has been
said
what is being
said
what will be said
there are no
beginnings or endings or climaxes
but proccesses,
becoming
past and present
in the poetic consciousness
are not the past
and present of history and journalism
thery are not
that which was nor that which happens
but that which is
being
that which is
creating itself
'the continuous
present'
5
the success of
any revolution, whether individual
or as a community
taking control
resides only in
itself
precisely in the
vibrations and openings
it gives to us at
the moment of its making
composes in
itself history and memory
root rot giggle
done mound past in dark brown chamber earth
opening as
beautiful as mallarme's
imagined flowers,
in the imagination
dreams hopes and
acts of us together
6
don't let anyone
tell you how much better things were
at any other time
or point in historoy
we are all
dealing with the same struggle, the same thing
to makes
something of the breath given
we will live and
create now
a generational
mixing of ideas images distortions contours
desires
examination revolutions
to mix across the
boundaries in swirls and gestures
understanding
acepting attempting
cultural transformation
the restoration
of lostness, a remarking using
language biology
phisosophy technology patterns
noise love
culture nature fun hate nation and antii-nation
space and
blankess and imaginaton making worlds
anything that
will open the whole
this life to
invention
mixed
collaborative creations
to make real our
time, here
7
to go about this
we must start
again as individuals
form small tribes
in the contemporary sense
do what we can do
to subvert the desruction
of everything
that lives
show by example
that we can be considered (a)part
of the bioregions
we inhabit
stand up and
refuse to pareticipate
in the death
march
'revolution is
not the overthrow of the existing system
but the setting
up alongside of a better on'
8
to know the
spirit of a place
is to know that
you are a part of a part
and that the
whole is made of parts
each of which is
a whole
start with the
part you are whole in
9
as our egoism
dies in this new vision
as we are jerked
and thrown in through
the gut and jaw
and lungs
in and outside of
ourselves
we are free to
live in ways we never thought possible
a signifcance of
transformation to become what you must
enter pattern
complete magic argued
wonder seduce
intone
10
this spectacle of
now is to confide in the future
the constantly
renewed and resumed struggle
cast knowts in
patterns on top of patterns
free yourself of
hierachization
develop action
thought desires
through patterns
of relations and juxtapositions
dwell in paradox
and mystery
mistrust all
rigid categories and logical alternatives
destroy the
repeated forms of expression immediately
so as to make
repetition and incorporation impossible
destroy all forms
of oppression
against self,
against otherness, nature, universe
and become a set
of patterns
a beautiful
tapestry of interactions
11
that we might
rest our heads in each other's hearts
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:32:02 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in dysfunction!
>Michael,
>
> My geographic brain isn't working to
well this morning. . . Plattsburg
>where? If it's not too far from me I might hope on
the ol' motorcycle and
>make a
weekend trip of it. . .
>
>
>Bruce
Be great if you
could. A mini-beat-L gathering of sorts.
Plattsburgh, far
northeastern New York State on the shores of Champlain,
not too far from
ole Montreal and in sight of theancient ones, the
Adirondacks! I'll
be driving up from Corning, NY - Finger Lakes, NY through
Oneonta,
Schenectedy/Albany etc.
best,
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:41:03 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
What's going on
in Plattsburgh on the 13th/14th? It's only an hour from
Montreal.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:56:39 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
Michael,
Northeast New York state? That's a little far for a weekend trip for
me.
. . I'm in Chesapeake, Virginia. Sounds fun, though. If you guys make it
happen, have a
ball. I'll be thinking of you.
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:06:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
Bruce Hartman
wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> Northeast New York state? That's a little far for a weekend trip for
me.
> . . I'm in Chesapeake, Virginia. Sounds fun, though. If you guys make it
> happen, have
a ball. I'll be thinking of you.
>
> Bruce
>
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
sounds
wonderful. quite far from kansas. i remember the ferry ride
from burlington
across to Plattsburgh. it happened i was
there on a
homecoming
weekend and the memories of the school band marching and
playing still
hurt my ears.
i will be with
you in spirit. hope you bring back good
memories from
the event to
report here on the list. as a
wish-i-was-there-a-be, the
best i'll be able
to do is attempt to create something from memories of
the area in something
imaginative to share as well.
and for
marie. thanks for the wonderful
poem. it brightened a very
gloomy day. felt the words stab at points that needed a
good stabbing.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:08:56 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970527203710_-1498314405@emout08.mail.aol.com>
On Tue, 27 May
1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-05-26 23:23:50 EDT, you write:
>=20
> <<
Tomorrow, Tuesday, let's have
> everyone on the list post one poem, story, or
idea about beat literature=
. >>
"Wind
Outside Seems"
by Michael L.
Buchenroth (1992)
The wind outside
seems forever.
The fire inside
the fireplace cracks burning,
hot green White
Ash sounds.
Seeking heat,
synchronicity,
a death's-head
hawkmoth's windblown flight ends
rapping,
tapping outside
upon the window pane.
An occasional
fireworks pops,
sparks,
sizzles warmly
into the dark,
fireplace night
up the flue,
and out,
towards the
stars,
I suppose.
These
infinitely-short,
sparks bursts,
which usually
follow the loudest cracks,
light the room up
much like lightening lights the outside in equally,
infinitely short
bursts somewhere following a thunder crack
amidst the wind
howling forever outside
and the
hawkmoth's tapping,
I suppose.
I don't know
though.
Her face glows
orange, blue, white=97
dark with each
crack and lightening-like flash,
flickering flame,
this fireplace
night publishes.
The army
couldn=92t deal death kinder than to this beautiful face,
tonight,
this fire,
this particular
pop--=97
sizzle sound--=97
loud crack the
night issues from somewhere forever outside,
I suppose--=97
much,
much like the
escaping gas,
gasp,
somewhere within
those hot green White Ash sounds.
I sure don't know
though.
Her human body
always alive,
alone or not
never knows what.
I suppose she
thinks the fire jumps briefly out into the room into her drea=
ms.
At least the
shadow dances dreams,
th=E9 dansant,
like smoke
burning a baseboard in a house not yet on fire all over the wall=
=97
dark and shadowy
psychedelic.
A candle shaped
by burning all night dances,
flutters,
hovers,
in her dreams
this way and that,
perhaps.
The mortar and
the shelling dances dark all over tonight!
I do know that.
She gasps,
grating her teeth
gurgling death's saliva,
gasping for a
breath--=97
and then crack,
pop,
sizzle similar to
some sort of chimerical crispies in a deep,
dark bowl of
milk,
the thunder
interrupts the wind.
Snap, crackle,
pop!
The mortally
short lightening bursts,
sparks light up
the fireplace flue night into the stars and beyond,
I suppose.
The wind blows,
howling outside.
During the
laconic,
lightening-like,
light-flash
flicker,
a tremendous,
endless,
silver spoon
shadows,
covers,
reflects deep
down into her beautiful milky face,
as if it goes
right on through her--
the bowl
bottom--=97
the dream.=97
Karmic breakfast.
I don't know--=97
though
I think I hear
the wind howling forever outside.
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:29:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
>What's going
on in Plattsburgh on the 13th/14th? It's only an hour from
>Montreal.
>
> Antoine
June 13 Craig
Czury, great poet from Reading ,PA
(Craig Czury
(1951, Wilkes-Barre, Pa.) lives in Reading, Pa. and is the
author of nine
small-press collections of poetry, most recently the bilingual
edition of
SHADOW/ORPHAN SHADOW... SOMBRA/SOMBRA HUA, translated into
Spanish by
Rosann DeCandido
Kamin & Alicia Partnoy, (Pine Press, 1997).
He has also
edited
FINE LINE THAT
SCREAMS, an anthology of prison poets (Endless Mountains Review
Press, 1991) from
his N.E. Pa. Prison Poetry Project.)
and myself
reading
(I'll read from
"Twenty days On Route 20" plus the
long poem "Elegy For
the
Road/Kerouac's Ghost")
in P'burgh
followed by open reading. Next day, I'll be facilitating three
hour workshop in
Arts Council Gallery, "Writing From the Visual Arts" using
art on exhibit as
take-off points for our own writing. Then, evening
reading/performance
of the workshop writings.
Craig wants to
head up to Montreal, since were so close, but I head out on
the road west for
a month on the following Tuesday so short on time. Maybe
Montreal, maybe.
. . Would be great if you could make it down to P'burgh
and anyone else
too. "A Positive Getting Together In Person No Battles Or
Estate Wars
Happening"
Michael
Anyone interested
I could send along time/place info privately.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:22:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Poem for Yesterday (Tuesday)
> In a message
dated 97-05-26 23:23:50 EDT, someone wrote:
>=20
> <<
Tomorrow, Tuesday, let's have
> everyone on the list post one poem, story, or
idea about beat literature=
. >>
"Wind
Outside Seems"
by Michael L.
Buchenroth (1992)
The wind outside
seems forever.
The fire inside
the fireplace cracks burning,
hot green White
Ash sounds.
Seeking heat,
synchronicity,
a death's-head
hawkmoth's windblown flight ends
rapping,
tapping outside
upon the window pane.
An occasional
fireworks pops,
sparks,
sizzles warmly
into the dark,
fireplace night
up the flue,
and out,
towards the
stars,
I suppose.
These
infinitely-short,
sparks bursts,
which usually
follow the loudest cracks,
light the room up
much like lightening lights the outside in equally,
infinitely short
bursts somewhere following a thunder crack
amidst the wind
howling forever outside
and the
hawkmoth's tapping,
I suppose.
I don't know
though.
Her face glows
orange, blue, white--=97
dark with each
crack and lightening-like flash,
flickering flame,
this fireplace
night publishes.
The army couldn't
deal death kinder than to this beautiful face,
tonight,
this fire,
this particular
pop--=97
sizzle sound--=97
loud crack the
night issues from somewhere forever outside,
I suppose--=97
much,
much like the
escaping gas,
gasp,
somewhere within
those hot green White Ash sounds.
I sure don't know
though.
Her human body
always alive,
alone or not
never knows what.
I suppose she
thinks the fire jumps briefly out into the room into her drea=
ms.
At least the
shadow dances dreams,
th=E9 dansant,
like smoke
burning a baseboard in a house not yet on fire all over the wall=
=97
dark and shadowy
psychedelic.
A candle shaped
by burning all night dances,
flutters,
hovers,
in her dreams
this way and that,
perhaps.
The mortar and
the shelling dances dark all over tonight!
I do know that.
She gasps,
grating her teeth
gurgling death's saliva,
gasping for a
breath--=97
and then crack,
pop,
sizzle similar to
some sort of chimerical crispies in a deep,
dark bowl of
milk,
the thunder
interrupts the wind.
Snap, crackle,
pop!
The mortally
short lightening bursts,
sparks light up
the fireplace flue night into the stars and beyond,
I suppose.
The wind blows,
howling outside.
During the
laconic,
lightening-like,
light-flash
flicker,
a tremendous,
endless,
silver spoon
shadows,
covers,
reflects deep
down into her beautiful milky face,
as if it goes
right on through her--
the bowl
bottom--=97
the dream.=97
Karmic breakfast.
I don't know--=97
though
I think I hear
the wind howling forever outside.
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:43:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
Dear Gerry:
The past business
you and I have gone through over the years should be
considered past
business. Let's look to the future and let us both continue
to promote Beat
literature and the Beat authors that we both love so much. We
have both done
some good for the cause in our own individual ways over the
years. Let's get
back to the basics once again.
On this list, you
will never gain the support of those who disagree with you
about estate and
archive matters. And they will never change your mind. But
that is ok.
Alot of people
respect you for your Memory Babe work and your knowledge of
the work of
Kaufman, Micheline, and other North Beach poets. Why not share
your knowledge
and experience with all of us?
Many people both
new to the list and old have expressed their displeasure
with what's
happening here the last few weeks. Let's all stop being so
abrassive and
argumentative.
Let's try to
rebuild the community spirit that we all shared that day that
Allen died...
Let's see if we
can't get people like Levi Asher back on this list...
Let's all follow
the guidelines set forth by William Gargan -
Have a great day
-
Jeffrey Weinberg
Water Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:45:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: burroughs
you wrote: PS, am going to see BEAT-L member
David
Ohle in Columbus
today with James Grauholtz to look at unpublished
manuscripts
of Bill Burroughs
Jr. if you have any questions to pass along I'd be glad to
ask, thanks (Dave
B.)
Dave: no
questions but i want to hear all about it after the fact. Please
please please
write to me at marioka7@aol.com or post a
message....thanks---------maya
oh, wait, i just
thought of a question: are there any college papers by
burroughs on
anthropology (or anything else in fact) that are available to be
read by
obsequious minions like myself? (i studied anthro...i'm just curious)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:06:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: n'orleans
what a city! what
a great porn store! what a headache i had when it was all
over!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:08:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: sorry i accidentally sent that last one
before it was over.
n'orleans:CHIRPING
NIGHTS OF INSECT LUST
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:16:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: POET-TREE
NIGHTS THAT CHIRP
WITH INSECT LUST
NOSTALGIA FOR A
THOUSAND NOWS
REPEL SULPHUR
BURNING WINGS
A DISTANT
CRACKLING ROTTEN CITRUS SMELL
INHALING COLORS
AND SOUNDS
IMMEDIACY
RESENTMENT DROWNS
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:23:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ron Guest
<rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
Don't worry. there will still be 200 of us around for the
t-shirts.
looking forward
to seeing the design.
At 10:36 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Beat-L
Members:
>
>Before all
200+ of you sign off, please remember that Beat-L T-shirt list.
>I ordered
enough shirts to cover that list and I certainly can't use 200
>shirts
myself!
>
>The Beat-L
T-shirt with artwork by S. Clay Wilson will be ready to ship in
>approx.
>2-3 weeks.
>
>I kept my
part of the bargain by fronting the money to pay Wilson and to pay
>for the
shirts to be printed up....Please keep your part of the bargain
>also...
>
>Thanks -
>
>Jeffrey
Weinberg
>Beat-L
T-shirt Dept.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:23:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Jack and Jazz
In response to
Laura's question about the Jack and Jazz thread, and hoping
someone else
picks up on it...
Jack had a pretty
wide interest in jazz, but he was captivated by bebop (Charlie
Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, etc.),
as many Americans of his time were. Jack was
in New York in the forties,
when the music
was developing at after-hours jam sessions at places such
as Minton's
Playhouse and and Monroe's Uptown House, so it's pretty likely
that he was
checking out the scene. (I know that this info is covered in Memory
Babe - Gerry
Nicosia, would you like to help me out here?) Kerouac went to see
a lot of
musicians live, some of whom he talks about in his books (there's an
especially
well written
section on George Shearing in On the Road, although the description
seems incongruous
given that Shearing's music is ice-cold, practically the
antithesis
of everything
Beat at the time). Specifically, of course, Charlie Parker - Jack
approaches
Parker with
near-worshipful reverence. Parker, I think, embodies what Jack was
looking for
in jazz -
spontaneity, the supreme individuality of the soloist, Parker's
near-transcendental
technical
brilliance.
In Selected Letters, Jack mentions many
jazz musicians at different times -
and they
are not all
limited to the bebop players, interestingly. However, the common
thread, I think,
in his interest
in jazz is the great soloists. In his essay "Jazz of the Beat
Generation", he talks
about the
evolution of jazz from Louis Armstrong, through Count Basie and Lester
Young, to the
bebop musicians -
but he neglects to mention a giant like Ellington, I think,
because Ellington's
music is tightly
arranged. At the end of OTR, he talks of wanting to hang out
with Neal Cassady
instead of going
to an Ellington concert, a quite revealing comment - the
tension is between the
arranged,
mainstream, "highbrow" jazz of Ellington and the underground, free,
spontaneous bebop
and the world of
the Beats.
Some trivia:
The recordings
you mentioned are with Zoot Sims and Al Cohn, I believe.
I think, at one
point, Kerouac also did a reading w/ jazz accompaniment at the
Village
Vanguard in New
York, which I've read was pretty unsuccessful.
Dizzy Gillespie
also named a song "Kerouac" - I think they had a mutual friend,
but I don't
know if they met.
Supposedly, Dizzy just liked the sound of the name.
And I think
Kerouac did meet many of the musicians
through a friend in the
business,
an agent, or
record company man - Gerry? or anyone?
This is all off
the top of my head, and purely from academic sources (I did my
undergraduate
thesis work on
Jack, Allen, and jazz). I'd love to hear some stories from the
people out there
that knew the
prinicpals personally.
Mark Noferi
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:00:17 +0200
From: Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo
<smeraldo.press@IOL.IT>
Subject: Jack
& Jazz
Hi everybody!
from the
"cloudy shores of Italy", I have two questions to ask you:
- which kind of
LIVE jazz was jack kerouac used to listen to during his
life? I mean: in
which jazz clubs did he go often to, in which towns and
in which period?
Do exist any LETTER (apart from references contained in
published books)
in which these details are booked, or does he remember
any live jam
session or jazz musician he met or knew?
- who are the
jazz musicians playing with him during his Mexico City
Blues and On The
Road reading recording? I have a "copy-of-the-copy" of
that tape and no
one could tell me when, where and with whom it was
recorded...
Thank you very
much for your help.
Bye, Laura :.)
--
Laura Moja
Ufficio Stampa
Teatro Smeraldo
smeraldo.press@iol.it
http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:27:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
I posted that
which I rolled myself for my contribution.
But on some
stupid and bad word plays, allusions etc., how
about:
What if they gave
a beat list and nobody posted.
What if good
people let posts they can delte run them off the
list?
What if we had a
chance to learn and didn't take it.
Some thoughts on
all this:
1. I came here to talk poetry, etc and
beats. I know a
lot about
Kerouac, Thanks to Gerry N, some about
many others,
and a lot about
orgone (sp?) accumulators. But I want
more
knowledge.
2. I wish that Gerry could let this shit
roll of his back,
cause I want to
read his new book. I also don't want him
to
leave the
list. So, I hope he will just ignore the
bs.
3. In a week or 10 days, while at times it
has been hairy
and I jumped in
at the wrong times, I have learned a lot.
Did
it cost me, yeah,
a lot of bad feelings. But, what in life
have I ever
gotten which matter, but that it did not cost me.
4. You gotta play your dues if you want to
sing the Mexico
City Blues, and
you know it don't come easy.
What people do
not realize is the scope and magnatude of
Kerouac's
genius? Have you ever tried to write
your On the
Road? Have you ever tried to describe in words what
he did?
He paid for it,
as those who follow the muse with no restraint,
with his
life. He gave his life to the muse for
the right to
write it all down
for us. And Gerry taped it.
So, I think we
need to focus on two things:
1. Open the library or move it so we can see and
hear it.
2 Take care of the tapes. Rerecord them on good tape. Then
digitize the
tapes to cd.
Oh yeah, and on
making this list happen.
This list has
some great posters and Levi ought to come on
back. Let's try to learn instead of Burn hear what
Jimi
Hendrix say.
Those who
followed the muse:
Jack Kerouac
Neal Cassiday
(sp)
Jim Morrison
Jimi Hendrix
Lord Byron
Rimbaud, cept he
bailed out and sold guns instead.
Not me, I didn't
have the guts.
Robert Johnson
Jackie Wilson
Buddy Holly
Ronnie Van Zandt
F Scott
Fitzgerald (sp)
Well, I am not
sure about Janis Joplin, if she wrote Kozmic
Blues, her to.
Sylvia Playth
not dorothy
parker.
Peace,
--------------------------------------------------------
Name: R. Bentz
Kirby
E-mail: R. Bentz
Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>
Date: 05/28/97
Time: 12:13:08
This message was
sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage
NetManage -
delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:31:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
In-Reply-To: <199705280126.SAA20060@denmark.it.earthlink.net>
> And it's curious you and Mr. Sampas got
invited to Jan's funeral,
>when I
didn't. How much time did you guys spend
with her in those last
>five, hard,
4-dialyis-a-day years? Did you ever
watch her do a dialysis,
>Phil?
> Just wondering. I did.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
I love these
Estate Wars so much I'm not only giggling hysterically and
weeping
hopelessly, but I'm transmuting to diskaloo every word said, just
so I can spend
the rest of my life trying to understand the dramatis
personae and the
issues involved. Also, I was recently
appointed literary
executor for poet
John Engman, naively somewhat I realize now, and I am
sincere and
grateful when I say, Gawd, have I learned a lot, which I needed
to know about
this necrophiliac legacy stuff. I am so
lucky he isn't worth
any money and I
am sole negotiator, caretaker, and proprietor of his
wondrous estate.
But, please, do
we have to drag in poor Jan's kidneys like Achilles
dragging Hector's
corpse seven times around the walls of Troy just to gloat
over a
point? The Trojan Horse always wins,
the men and women at arms
slain. Please, some decorum at their graves--or,
failing that, at least
some rich ripe
red very dry wine for strewing their flesh and bones.
John M.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:59:22 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus
"Donated"
At 11:43 AM
5/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Gerry:
>
>The past
business you and I have gone through over the years should be
>considered
past business. Let's look to the future and let us both continue
>to promote
Beat literature and the Beat authors that we both love so much. We
>have both
done some good for the cause in our own individual ways over the
>years. Let's
get back to the basics once again.
>
>On this list,
you will never gain the support of those who disagree with you
>about estate
and archive matters. And they will never change your mind. But
>that is ok.
>Alot of
people respect you for your Memory Babe work and your knowledge of
>the work of
Kaufman, Micheline, and other North Beach poets. Why not share
>your
knowledge and experience with all of us?
>
>Many people
both new to the list and old have expressed their displeasure
>with what's
happening here the last few weeks. Let's all stop being so
>abrassive and
argumentative.
>
>Let's try to
rebuild the community spirit that we all shared that day that
>Allen died...
>Let's see if
we can't get people like Levi Asher back on this list...
>
>Let's all
follow the guidelines set forth by William Gargan -
>
>Have a great
day -
>Jeffrey
Weinberg
>Water Row
Books
>
Jeffrey, May 28, 1997
Couldn't agree more. Now if we can just get "Dirk Latin
Edition" or
whatever his name
is to agree, I think we'll have peace in the valley again.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:15:15 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Jan's service
>> And it's curious you and Mr. Sampas got
invited to Jan's funeral,
>>when I
didn't. How much time did you guys spend
with her in those last
>>five,
hard, 4-dialyis-a-day years? Did you
ever watch her do a dialysis,
Phil?
>> Just wondering. I did.
>> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
>>
>>Gerry,
what makes you think that John would get invited. I haven't been
>invited but I
still would like to go to pay my respects. I met Jan when she
>came to
Lowell and we had a nice conversation. I got some great photos of
>her at the
dedication. She was friendly to me and I to her. Why would you
>need an
invitation to go to a memorial service. Is it a private service? If
>it is let me
know and I will respect anyones wishes on this. But I just
>assumed
anyone could go to pay their respects to Jan. Inform us on the list
>if you know
about it.Phil
>
>
Dear Phil, May 28, 1997
I was told by Jacques Kirouac from
Quebec, head of the Kerouac
Family
Association, that Jan's service and interrment (which will take place
on June 5, 9AM,
at St. Louis de Gonzague in Nashua), IS PRIVATE and by
invitation
only. Jacques has been invited. According to Jacques, John
Lash, Jan's
exhusband, invited Mr. Sampas. Since
you're a friend of Mr.
Sampas's, you
should have no trouble getting in.
I've been cut out of Jan's burial, just
as I have been cut out of a
lot of things in
the last few years.
But I had the honor of standing by her
side when police dragged us
both out of New
York University. As Jack used to sing,
"They can't take
that away from
me."
We also had another big victory. Mr. Lash was planning to bury Jan
on top of her
grandmother Gabrielle, to save the last two spaces in the
Kerouac plot for
members of the Sampas family.
Paul Blake, Jr., objected to the digging
up of his grandmother's
grave in order to
save space for a Sampas.
So the cemetery has instructed Mr. Lash
(and presumably Mr. Sampas)
that Jan's
remains will have to be interred in one of the two empty grave sites.
What this means is that Jan can at
least have the dignity of her own
marker, and her
own little spot, for people to come and leave tributes
to--poems and
dimes and little model Cadillacs or whatever people deem
appropriate. (More work for the cemetery, I guess, but that's
the story
when you bury
somebody famous.)
As for me, I guess I'll sneak in
someday when all the furor and
hatred have
passed, and pay my respects too.
Say a prayer for Jan for me that day,
will you?
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:27:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
In-Reply-To: <v01530500afb1a61df54e@[204.181.15.86]>
>>
>Hey, how
about grabbing a handful of poems and shuffling on up to
>Plattsburgh
on June 13th/14th for a big poetry reading, wine, creative talk
>and a bit of
poetic partying? Anyone else interested.
>
>Michael
__________
i'm there, mike,
just need to check out ferry on lake champlain, and wings
to whisk me from
landing to the fest. (and i actually have a handfulla
pomes to share
like oranges on a sunny hot day
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:36:53 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: A quickie question
At 06:55 PM
5/27/97 -0000, you wrote:
>alright, I'm
new here and basically new to Beat so this may be a stupid
>question, but
I was reading the portable Beat reader and an excerpt from
>junk had a
character named Jack that killed somebody with a pipe and a
>faucet. Is
that Mr. Kerouac?
>
>west
>
>I belong to
the blank generation
>and I can
take or leave it each time
>-Richard Hell
>
>
No.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:13:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul Maher's anger
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19970526194611.006b2538@pop.pipeline.com>
Paul Maher wrote (5-26) to G.Nicosia:
>You play no part in my daily but as a flea
on an
>elephant's
ass. You are a fly on a mountain of shit. it's too bad you and
>your devout
followers (if you have any) missed Hale-Bopp..............last
>on this....EVER.
PAUL MAHER JR. THE GUY WHO STOLE BOOKS FROM MOGAN CENTER
>LIBRARY BUT
IS NOW THE SCAPEGOAT FOR GERRY NICOSIA'S WORTHLESS STOLEN
>ARCHIVES....
Paul,
I followed the
original exchanges and recall Gerry making it clear that he
thought the library
was wrong in stating that you may have stolen the
material. As a
favor to you I even deletedyour name, phone number and his
mention the
incident from material I had on my web site at your
request--even
though I had no obligation to do so.
How nice it would
be if you would limit your posts to information rather
than anger and
slander.
I'll have to
check my records, but I think I sent for a subscription to
your magazine
recently. Cancel it, don't bill me, I'm no longer even
remotely
interested.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:37:48 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: What's the word on Dylan?
Just heard some
bad news regarding Mr. Dylan. He's
supposedly in
hospital for observation after complaining
of chest
pains. The diagnosis is that he is
suffering from
Histoplasmosis, a
potentially life threatening disease
involving the
swelling of the fat around the heart. He
has
cancelled his
tour that starts June 1st in Ireland and ends
in Switzerland,
June 18th. This is from a fairly
reliable
resource (at
least they usually are). From what I
understand
recovery time is
a few months. The Irish promoters are
saying he had a
heart-attack. Hmm, waiting for the
official
word. This may be total rumour? I hope so!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:47:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
In-Reply-To:
<199705262253.PAA12697@italy.it.earthlink.net>
G. Nicosia wrote
(5-26):
> Then I'm taking off for a while.
> I need a break to get back to my real
work--writing books, and
>advocating
for the
>right to
study Jack Kerouac's papers, in court, which is the only place such
>advocacy will
really count.
> By the way, I've been accused of hiring
these folks as "mouthpieces"
>for me. I've never met either Grant or Kirby. Jerry I met only twice, once
>when he asked
me to come down to his bookstore in Monterey to lecture about
>Kerouac, and
the other time for a few seconds in Washington Square Park in
>New York,
when I gave him a free ticket to the Beat Conference Town Hall
>Concert.
Gerry,
Each day I am
amazed and slightly appalled at the time you are taking to
respond to some
of the incredibly weak, stupid posts. At times, IMO, you
allow your
feelings to override your sensabilities. I understand why. A big
chunk of your
life went into "Memory Babe..." and I for one am grateful to
have the English
and Spanish editions
Also, I read and
save your posts and many of the posts of your enemies (I
specifically
avoided using the word "critics"). But each day I ask myself,
when is he going
to return to "HOME TO WAR: The History of the VVAW" or
whatever the
title will be? Wheneven I meet a Vietnam
Vet I mention the
book and it is
extremely rare that the veteran does not know about the
book-in-progress
and Gerry Nicosia the author.
At this point, as
far as the Kerouac collections are concerned, there are
those who
want/need access to Keroauc material and will avoid and/or attack
you, and there
are those who believe the collection , at whatever costs to
collectors and
individual scholars, must be preserved in a safe environment
where everyone
has access to Jack Keroauc's collection AND the collection
of his daughter
Jan.
That twain will
probably not meet until the issue of the will is determined
in court. Sampas
says he can prove the will was signed by Jack's Memere,
Jan claimed she
would prove the signature was forged.
I wish everyone
would encourage Sampas to welcome the chance to present his
proof in
court.Why drag it out?
And Gerry, I wish
you would try to ignore the dirt and get
on with
finishing a book
that will provide healing to hundreds of thousands of
Vietnam Veterans.
Vets who are deperately in need of a document they can
hold up to the
U.S. public and say, "This is who we were, this is who we
are, and what we
were about!"
Impossible to
tell you how disappointed I was when a head gasket blew in my
car and I was unable
to get to Chicago for the VVAW convention and the
opportunity to
meet you.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:50:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: What's the word on Dylan?
In-Reply-To: <199705282037.QAA13217@ionline.net>
from "M. Cakebread" at May
28, 97 04:37:48 pm
>
> Just heard
some bad news regarding Mr. Dylan. He's
> supposedly
in hospital for observation after complaining
> of chest
pains. The diagnosis is that he is
suffering from
>
Histoplasmosis, a potentially life threatening disease
> involving
the swelling of the fat around the heart.
He has
> cancelled
his tour that starts June 1st in Ireland and ends
> in Switzerland,
June 18th. This is from a fairly
reliable
> resource (at
least they usually are). From what I
understand
> recovery
time is a few months. The Irish
promoters are
> saying he
had a heart-attack. Hmm, waiting for the
official
> word. This may be total rumour? I hope so!!
>
> Mike
>
Mike--This is
what I picked up on the Web from the Associated Press.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Dylan
hospitalized with
heart ailment
Associated Press,
05/28/97
NEW YORK (AP) -
Singer Bob Dylan was
hospitalized with
a potentially fatal heart infection that
forced the
cancellation of a scheduled European tour,
his record label
said in a statement today.
Dylan, who turned
56 last Saturday, was admitted to
a hospital this
past weekend ``suffering from severe
chest pains,''
according to the three-paragraph
statement from
Columbia Records.
``His condition
has been diagnosed as Histoplamosis,
a potentially
fatal infection which creates a swelling of
the sack which
surrounds the heart,'' the statement
said.
The statement did
not specify where Dylan was
hospitalized or
his current condition. It did say he
was ``undergoing
treatment and will remain
hospitalized in
the care of his physicians until such
time as they feel
confident that his condition has
improved.''
Once released
from the hospital, ``there will need to
be a period of
recuperation,'' the statement said.
Dylan was forced
to cancel an upcoming tour of the
United Kingdom
and Switzerland.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:51:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA,
Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Subject: Dylan News
Comments: cc:
bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
Wednesday May 28 4:04 PM EDT
UPDATE: Bob Dylan
Hospitalized With Chest Pains
(adds details)
LONDON (Reuter) - American rock star Bob
Dylan called off a European
tour after being admitted to a hospital
suffering from a potentially
life-threatening illness, his publicists
said Wednesday.
Media reports in London said the 56-year-old
singer-songwriter was
hospitalized in New York, but a spokeswoman
for Dylan in New York said
her office did not know his condition or
where he was being treated.
"This past weekend, Bob Dylan was
admitted to hospital suffering from
severe chest pains. His condition has been
diagnosed as
histoplasmosis, a potentially fatal
infection which creates swelling
in the sac which surrounds the heart,"
Dylan's London publicists said.
Dylan will remain in the hospital until his
doctors are confident his
condition has improved, they added.
In New York, his publicists said they hoped
he would be well enough to
go through with a U.S. tour slated for
August.
The singer was due to perform in Ireland,
Britain and Switzerland
during the summer tour. Van Morrison, who
was to appear with him in
London June 7, said he would still perform.
Dylan recently completed a swing through
Canada and the Northeast and
last appeared in Los Angeles this month.
Dylan, who released his first album in 1962,
is considered one of the
most influential songwriters of his
generation.
A number of his early songs -- "Blowin'
in the Wind," "A Hard Rain's
A-Gonna Fall," "Masters of
War" and "The Times They Are A-Changin"' --
became anthems of the civil rights and
anti-war movements of the '60s.
And many of his songs were made hits by
other artists, ranging from
Jimi Hendrix to Peter, Paul & Mary.
Dylan clinched his credentials as a
mainstream rock artist in 1965
with the hit single "Like A Rolling
Stone," off the landmark album
"Highway 61 Revisited." Other
Dylan classics include "Subterranean
Homesick Blues" and "Tangled Up in
Blue."
Reuters/Variety
_________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:55:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970527000019.006bb93c@pop.pipeline.com>
Alfred Lewen
wrote (5-26):
>
> I think I
will have John Sampas autograph my copy of Memory Babe.....
>
When you do, ask
him to contact me. I'd like to make his phone number and
address available
to preservation librarians around the country who have
ideas to share
with him about the conservation and preservation of historic
books,
manuscripts and documents.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:42:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
no prob jeff
everybody will
still be here
thanks again
jeremy lawson
----------
: From: Ron Guest
<rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject: Re:
T-shirts
: Date:
Wednesday, May 28, 1997 11:23 AM
:
: Don't
worry. there will still be 200 of us
around for the t-shirts.
: looking forward
to seeing the design.
:
: At 10:36 PM
5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
: >Dear Beat-L
Members:
: >
: >Before all
200+ of you sign off, please remember that Beat-L T-shirt
list.
: >I ordered
enough shirts to cover that list and I certainly can't use 200
: >shirts
myself!
: >
: >The Beat-L
T-shirt with artwork by S. Clay Wilson will be ready to ship
in
: >approx.
: >2-3 weeks.
: >
: >I kept my
part of the bargain by fronting the money to pay Wilson and to
pay
: >for the
shirts to be printed up....Please keep your part of the bargain
: >also...
: >
: >Thanks -
: >
: >Jeffrey Weinberg
: >Beat-L
T-shirt Dept.
: >
: >
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:10:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tipper Quigg
<quigg@INFORAMP.NET>
Subject: What should I read?
I've come to ask the great Beat
community what should I read? I've
just finished
reading Dharma Bums, and now I don't know what to read...Here
are the books on
my list that I still haven't read:
Queer- William Burroughs
Desolation Angels- Jack Kerouac
Vanity of Duluoz- Jack Kerouac
Dr. Sax- Jack Kerouac
If you can tell I'm a huge Kerouac fan
and Burroughs is right behind
him.... I can't
wait for your opinions...
help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:14:55 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Alan Harrington
I was saddened to
see Alan Harrington's obituary in this morning's New
York Times. For those not familiar with Harrington, he
was a novelist
friend of
Ginsberg, Kerouac and Holmes during the late 1940s. In fact,
it was Harrington
who tookHolmes to Ginsberg's party over the July 4th
weekend of 1948
and first introduced him to Ginsberg and Kerouac.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:25:07 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
In a message
dated 97-05-28 14:07:55 EDT, you write:
<< Don't
worry. there will still be 200 of us
around for the t-shirts.
looking forward to seeing the design.
>>
Thanks for your
note of encouragement....
I am certain that
people will stick it out on the Beat-L while we all come to
terms with any
hostilities or support we have for other Beat-L members.
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:54:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
At 03:55 PM
5/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Alfred Lewen
wrote (5-26):
>>
>> I think
I will have John Sampas autograph my copy of Memory Babe.....
>>
>
>When you do,
ask him to contact me. I'd like to make his phone number and
>address
available to preservation librarians around the country who have
>ideas to
share with him about the conservation and preservation of historic
>books,
manuscripts and documents.
>
>j grant
>
>You have a
computer use the phone book reference indicator....it is on
every server's
web site. Or...if you cannot grasp that try the Lowell
phonebook or
quite simply... the operator. I'm sure he would be glad to talk
to you Mr.
Grant. Regards, Paul of The Kerouac
Quarterly
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:45:33 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 28 May 1997 17:54:40 -0400
from
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
On Wed, 28 May
1997 17:54:40 -0400 Paul Maher said:
>At 03:55 PM
5/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Alfred
Lewen wrote (5-26):
>>>
>>> I
think I will have John Sampas autograph my copy of Memory Babe.....
>>>
>>
>>When you
do, ask him to contact me. I'd like to make his phone number and
>>address
available to preservation librarians around the country who have
>>ideas to
share with him about the conservation and preservation of historic
>>books,
manuscripts and documents.
>>
>>j grant
>>
>>You have
a computer use the phone book reference indicator....it is on
>every
server's web site. Or...if you cannot grasp that try the Lowell
>phonebook or
quite simply... the operator. I'm sure he would be glad to talk
>to you Mr.
Grant. Regards, Paul of The Kerouac
Quarterly
>>
It seems to me that these are personal
messages that would have been better se
nt privately than
having them posted to the list. Bill
Gargan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:50:33 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
In-Reply-To: <199705282110.RAA13190@inforamp.net>
hi,
dont necessarily
take My Word for it, but I think Desolation A. would be
a good folow up
to D Bums. Des is a Great Great great book.
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
I dont know bout
the economy but second the motion!
On Wed, 28 May
1997, Tipper Quigg wrote:
> I've come to ask the great Beat
community what should I read? I've
> just
finished reading Dharma Bums, and now I don't know what to read...Here
> are the
books on my list that I still haven't read:
>
> Queer- William Burroughs
> Desolation Angels- Jack Kerouac
> Vanity of Duluoz- Jack Kerouac
> Dr. Sax- Jack Kerouac
>
>
> If you can tell I'm a huge Kerouac fan
and Burroughs is right behind
> him.... I
can't wait for your opinions...
>
>
>
>
> help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:53:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: charlie and son on road
I had a great
time with Charlie and his son Billy. I
left them
yesterday (tues)
afternoon with wsb and they were all jawing away. I
heard today that
wsb reported a great visit was had. I
had failed to
find my appc.
rose poem which is how i first heard of Mr. Plymell. So
no autograph for
me and my hoard.
Charlie had great
stories,reports sighting tornadoes in Kansas at the
Oklahoma border
and gun shot holes in the old west hotel they stayed
in.. His son was
just great, smart, caring neat kid.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:02:38 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tipper Quigg
<quigg@INFORAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
At 05:50 28/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>hi,
>dont
necessarily take My Word for it, but I think Desolation A. would be
>a good folow
up to D Bums. Des is a Great Great great book.
>
>
>Eric
>rhs4@crystal.palace.net
>
>I dont know
bout the economy but second the motion!
Thank you very much, that is what I was
thinking abotu reading...Now
I guess I
will....Thanx....Any other suggestions great books?
Tipper
>
>
>
help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:20:25 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Jack and Jazz
May
28, 1997
Mark Noferi
writes:
"I think Kerouac did meet many of
the musicians through a friend in
the business, an
agent, or record company man-- Gerry? or anyone?"
Dear Mark,
Yes, it was both an agent and a record
company man--Jerry Newman. I
think the name of
his record company was Esoteric, but I could be wrong
(told you all,
brain going in old age). Newman recorded
jack singing "Come
Rain or Come
Shine" and other Sinatra favorites--improvising his own
lyrics!--with a
real jazz backup. I have one hour of
this stuff, which is
now among the
tapes under seal at U Mass, Lowell.
Supposedly Newman's widow
has about 20 more
hours of such recordings--think about this, Rykodisc!--but
she's
disappeared. Anybody heard of her
whereabouts?
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:26:40 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Maggie Cassidy
May 28,
1997
John Arthur Maynard
writes:
"For example, how come nobody ever
seems to mention Maggie Cassidy?
Struck me between
the eyes close to 20 years ago, and I'm still struck."
Dear John,
Yeah, it's a great one. And it's in public domain, which means
someone could
make a movie of it and not have to pay for rights or royalties.
Seems like some enterprising guys or
gals in Lowell could do a
low-budget
version that might be dynamite.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
P.S. To Nick Weir-Williams, is this one
of the books you're thinking
of reissuing from
Northwestern University Press? It would
be funny for me,
because I first
read MAGGIE CASSIDY in the rare book reading room of
Northwestern
University In Evanston, Illinois, one winter day many a long
year ago--it was
out of print and I couldn't get it anywhere else. I
remember walking
over to Yesterdays (a local campus hangout), grabbing a
burger and
coffee, and then walking back thru the snowy streets (how
Kerouacian!) to
the rare book reading room to finish the book--and the
librarian
niggling at me to be careful because the book was old, a cheap
paperback, and
she was afraid I was bending the spine too far open as I read it!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:31:03 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What's the word on Dylan?
By now, I suppose
that everyone on the list has heard a news blurb that
confirms what
Mike told us earlier re: Dylan --- appears to be a dangerous
heart infection
and Columbia records is not saying where he is being treated.
A major influence
on my life -- I feel as if I am waiting for word about a
family member.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:33:02 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Decorum at Graves
May 28, 1997
John Mitchell
writes:
"But, please, do we have to drag
in poor Jan's kidneys like Achilles
dragging Hector's
corpse seven times around the walls of Troy just to gloat
over a
point? The Trojan Horse always wins, the
men and women at arms
slain. Please, some decorum at their graves--or,
failing that, at least
some rich ripe
red very dry wine for strewing [stewing?] their flesh and bones."
Dear John,
It appears Jan has more friends in
death than she had in life--just
like Jack, who
died alone except for Stella and Ronny Lowe.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:36:29 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac
Dear Bill Gargan:
Thank you for being
vigilant and reminding those who violate the standards --
personal attacks
are hardly informative -- more usually damaging to the
INtent and
CONtent of the list to which I excitedly (if one may be so at age
47!) subscribed a
few weeks ago.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:26:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
the problem with
half way creative people is
their lack of
comprimise or maybe just patience.
that seems to be
this problem and i know everyone
will realize how lame
it is to argue. so, bring on the
shirts!
jeremy
----------
: From: Jeffrey
Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject: Re:
T-shirts
: Date:
Wednesday, May 28, 1997 4:25 PM
:
: In a message
dated 97-05-28 14:07:55 EDT, you write:
:
: << Don't
worry. there will still be 200 of us
around for the t-shirts.
: looking forward to seeing the design.
: >>
:
: Thanks for your
note of encouragement....
: I am certain
that people will stick it out on the Beat-L while we all
come to
: terms with any
hostilities or support we have for other Beat-L members.
: JW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:28:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
vanity is good
i haven't read
desolation yet but a friend
of mine has and
he loved it.
vanity is kind of
a culmination. yet it is a good
beginning even
though it was the last part in the
whole
autobiographical series. so, i'd try it.
or on the road,
the most famous.
----------
: From: Tipper
Quigg <quigg@INFORAMP.NET>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject: What
should I read?
: Date:
Wednesday, May 28, 1997 4:10 PM
:
: I've come to ask the great Beat
community what should I read?
I've
: just finished
reading Dharma Bums, and now I don't know what to
read...Here
: are the books
on my list that I still haven't read:
:
: Queer- William Burroughs
: Desolation Angels- Jack Kerouac
: Vanity of Duluoz- Jack Kerouac
: Dr. Sax- Jack Kerouac
:
:
: If you can tell I'm a huge Kerouac fan
and Burroughs is right
behind
: him.... I can't
wait for your opinions...
:
:
:
:
: help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:44:25 -0400
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: What's the word on Dylan?
At 06:31 PM
5/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>By now, I
suppose that everyone on the list has heard a
>news blurb
that confirms what Mike told us earlier re:
>Dylan ---
appears to be a dangerous heart infection and
>Columbia
records is not saying where he is being treated.
Don't worry, you
won't get the real story from
Columbia!! {;^> I'll see what I can dig up.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:05:26 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: RFC822 error: <W> TO field
duplicated. Last occurrence was
retained.
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: It would be his heart...
Comments: To:
Mississippi Malcolm McDowell <sdodge@midway.uchicago.edu>,
"Wingert, Dave"
<DWingy@aol.com>
Off the AP wire
Bob Dylan Hospitalized
Legendary rocker Bob Dylan has been
hospitalized for treatment of a
potentially life-threatening disease. His
publicists say Dylan entered
an undisclosed hospital last weekend because
of severe chest pains. The
publicists say Dylan has been diagnosed with a
disease called
histoplamosis, which is a potentially fatal
infection that creates swelling in
the
sack that surrounds the heart. News reports in
London say the 56-year-old
singer/songwriter is hospitalized in New York,
but Dylan's publicists
would not confirm that. Dylan's publicists
today called off a European tour.
Dylan is considered the most influential
songwriter of his generation.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:22:25 -0400
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From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
I'm looking
forward to it and we'll coordinate more as we get closer. Been
enjoying the
poems you've been posting. A sunny, almost hot day here today.
A good day for
oranges.
Michael
Antoine
expresssed some interest in what's going on too.
>i'm there,
mike, just need to check out ferry on lake champlain, and wings
>to whisk me
from landing to the fest. (and i actually have a handfulla
>pomes to
share like oranges on a sunny hot day
>mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:48:04 -0000
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From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
>
>Whoa. I have to say that if we are talking about
the superority of the
>one of the
beats, my vote is in there for Allen Ginsberg.
He was by far
>the greatest
poet of the twentieth century
Diane,
I enjoy Allen Ginsberg more than oxygen, but
that's a pretty hefty
claim. I would
enjoy a reason if you please.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:18:15 -0400
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From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: It would be his heart...
Thank you, Malcs
(pardon my familiarity -- but i believe that you signed
earlier posts in
this manner), for the AP message re: Bob Dylan.
I
appreciate
whatever word is passed on to the list -- and, not really wanting
to speak for
others but, I expect that others among the 200 feel the same.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:27:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: What's the word on Dylan?
M. Cakebread
wrote:
>
> At 06:31 PM
5/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >By now,
I suppose that everyone on the list has heard a
> >news
blurb that confirms what Mike told us earlier re:
> >Dylan
--- appears to be a dangerous heart infection and
> >Columbia
records is not saying where he is being treated.
>
> Don't worry,
you won't get the real story from
>
Columbia!! {;^> I'll see what I can
dig up.
>
> Mike
woke up from long
siesta to all this news....
remember every
face Bob and
may God Bless and
keep
and
stay
along the
Watchtower
far between
sundowns finish and
midnights broken
toll
i'm with you in
my heart and soul where you are
now and go here
and forever
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:42:20 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
In a message
dated 97-05-28 18:36:48 EDT, you write:
<<
no prob jeff
everybody will still be here
thanks again
jeremy lawson >>
Thanks Jeremy -
That's the kind
of community spirit we all need to recapture here!!
Let's get back to
Beatness!!
Let's show Levi
Asher that we are worthwhile to subscribe to once again....
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:41:49 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: re-Jan's funeral
Gerry Nicosia
wrote:
<I've been cut
out of Jan's burial, just as I have been cut out of a lot of
<things in the
last few years. . . . As for me, I guess
I'll sneak in
someday <when
all the furor and hatred have passed, and pay my respects
too.
<Say a prayer
for Jan for me that day, will you? Best, Gerry Nicosia
It is sad and now
sarodically comic that Mr. Nicosia has been cut out of
Jan's funeral,
but one imagines Hamlet and Laertes (Sampas as Polonius?)
leaping into Ophelia's
grave and dueling there over her reputation and
estate. Alas, poor Yorick! We've come to know him well. // John M.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:16:59 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
In a message
dated 97-05-28 10:43:28 EDT, you write:
<< driving up from Corning, NY - Finger Lakes,
NY through
Oneonta, Schenectedy/Albany etc. >>
Michael,
You must be
backtrailing the old Mohawk Trail.
Pam Plymell
Cherry Valley
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:39:47 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: charlie and son on road
Patricia:
Thanks. Send the Rose when you retrieve it from its
pressing, Charley will
sign it.
Pam
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:43:13 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
In a message
dated 97-05-28 19:41:50 EDT, you write:
<< Dr. Sax- Jack Kerouac >>
Tipper:
When you read Dr.
Sax, you should also read Last of the Moccasins by Charles
Plymell available
from Waterrow Books (waterrow@aol.com).
There are so many
books to
recommend, to start Naked Lunch is a must.
Pam
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:53:21 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeanne Vaccaro
<SlugBug747@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: It would be his heart...
Yea, definately.
I am so sad, I cannot believe this. God, I mean, ahhh! Pray
for him, I surely
will be. I know that he will be
fine. After everything he
has been through,
he has to be...
sigh, ciao,
jeanne.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:47:17 -0400
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Dylan memories
David,
Very nice and somehow comforting to see
you string those lines
together so
seeming effortlessly. Do you remember when you first heard
Dylan? ...and
what was the most memorable hearing of him?
I was in my room in boarding school
(Portsmouth, RI just down the
road from
Newport...) just after Christmas in 1963. John Cadley had come
back with the
first album and as a senior was allowed to have a record
player. He played
the album endlessly learning lyrics and tablature phrase
by phrase, but I
loved every minute, although not everyone did!
I had been listening to a mixture of
Odetta, Joan Baez, Tom Lehrer,
Piaf, Dion and
the Belmonts and lots of oldies rock n' roll. Fortunately I'd
also borrowed -
and kept for most of a summer the Smithsonian history of
American Music
going from the blues with the likes of a teenaged Sonny
Terry, through
Bix Beiderbeck, Billie Holiday and on...
Then all of a sudden there was Dylan.
He stayed a pretty little
known singer for
a long time among my friends. I can remember being at the
beach when the
Animals version of "House of the Rising Sun" was played the
first time.
[Groton Town Beach Marie if you were ever over that way] and I
went ballistic.
Someone was singing Bob Dylan songs on top 40 (never mind he
didn't write it!)
That must have been summer of '64 and
the next summer I was standing
on a chair about
20 rows back as Dylan went electric. Read "On the Road" a
few years later
without for a long, long time making the connection between
Jack and that
cool bearded guy (Ginsberg) that I saw in photos with Dylan.
...and the
Rolling Thunder Tour was pretty great. Saw him in Montreal in '66
I guess with a
"pick-up" band called the Hawks and thought "shit, where's
Bloomfield and
Kooper" and then Garth touched his organ keys!
Apologies for the only slightly Beat
post. Very affected by
reminiscence of
first few posts about Allen Ginsberg.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:09:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: A quickie question
> alright, I'm
new here and basically new to Beat so this may be a stupid
> question,
but I was reading the portable Beat reader and an excerpt from
> junk had a
character named Jack that killed somebody with a pipe and a
> faucet. Is
that Mr. Kerouac?
I think that he beat some poor guy to
deat with a musical instrument or
something... I
can't remember which book I saw that in.
Maybe The town and
the city or a
biography or something. But it was more
of a hint and then
nothing else...
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web:
http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
|"Fate
sucks. I swear."
|
| -- From The
Movie "Drugstore Cowboy"
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|--
PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:19:31 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Very nice and somehow comforting to
see you string those lines
> together so
seeming effortlessly. Do you remember when you first heard
> Dylan?
...and what was the most memorable hearing of him?
>
> I was in my room in boarding school
(Portsmouth, RI just down the
> road from
Newport...) just after Christmas in 1963. John Cadley had come
> back with
the first album and as a senior was allowed to have a record
> player. He
played the album endlessly learning lyrics and tablature phrase
> by phrase,
but I loved every minute, although not everyone did!
>
> I had been listening to a mixture of
Odetta, Joan Baez, Tom Lehrer,
> Piaf, Dion
and the Belmonts and lots of oldies rock n' roll. Fortunately I'd
> also
borrowed - and kept for most of a summer the Smithsonian history of
> American
Music going from the blues with the likes of a teenaged Sonny
> Terry,
through Bix Beiderbeck, Billie Holiday and on...
>
> Then all of a sudden there was Dylan.
He stayed a pretty little
> known singer
for a long time among my friends. I can remember being at the
> beach when
the Animals version of "House of the Rising Sun" was played the
> first time.
[Groton Town Beach Marie if you were ever over that way] and I
> went
ballistic. Someone was singing Bob Dylan songs on top 40 (never mind he
> didn't write
it!)
>
> That must have been summer of '64 and
the next summer I was standing
> on a chair
about 20 rows back as Dylan went electric. Read "On the Road" a
> few years
later without for a long, long time making the connection between
> Jack and
that cool bearded guy (Ginsberg) that I saw in photos with Dylan.
> ...and the
Rolling Thunder Tour was pretty great. Saw him in Montreal in '66
> I guess with
a "pick-up" band called the Hawks and thought "shit, where's
> Bloomfield
and Kooper" and then Garth touched his organ keys!
>
> Apologies for the only slightly Beat
post. Very affected by
> reminiscence
of first few posts about Allen Ginsberg.
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
there has been an
odd connection for me for so long.
in the Chronicle
of the Twentieth Century one of the headlines for the
week i was born
was Dylan heading from Minnesota to New York.
hard to
believe that one.
ummm. i imagine i heard him in college - but lived
with two friends who
mostly had wars
of sound between Rolling Stones and the Who.
Kevin Downey in
Hanover turned me on to OTR, Phil Ochs, and Bob Dylan at
nearly the same
time. He was a student of mine. recall visiting
Folkways in New
York City on a trip shortly after that.
Have a copy of
Mo Asch(sp?)'s
copy of Broadside issue with Phil Och's retrospective.
bought albums
with blind boy grunt and all of that.
recall playing Ochs
and Dylan on the
Dartmouth Green at "Artists Against Apartheid" rally in
86 or so. after that it turned to deeper and deeper
interest. Don't
recall first time
I heard Hwy 61 Revisited but it certainly changed me.
Read everything
about Dylan i could find. used to judge
a library or
bookstore by its
Dylan section. recall talking to the
hippest of the
Iowa faculty in
my department (while i was tripping) about the potential
for a
dissertation connections contemporary social theory with dylan and
he said
impossible. a sad day. during my first trip into insanity i
sometimes
survived by Dylan lyrics. i recall the
note i left my ex-wife
about the
division of our possessions was "take what you need and leave
the rest"
:) many many many memories. only saw him in concert (in
real-life) once
in Iowa City. i recall Sue Tjardes
calling my office
phone and leaving
a message with a student worker not to forget my
appointment with
Mr. Zimmerman. She'd bought my
ticket. and she really
got me on that
one. i was running around the damn place
"who's Mr.
Zimmerman. Who's this damn Mr. Zimmerman!" then it hit me. i've never
laughed so
hard. several of us met at Sue's and
played Dylan songs
before the concert. all playing what we wanted to hear. he played
every song i'd
played in the concert. sometimes life is
amazing. flash
forward. Memorial Day picked up my guitar for the
third time in three
years and played
"I shall be released" with no knowledge.
am looking on web
pages about "histoplamosis" but it is difficult to
make too much
sense of the medical terminology. it
appears that there
is a medication
which is fairly successful in treatment.
many
memories. i hope that they
continue. what am i talking about -
they'll continue
no matter what happens ... connections this deep -
conscious or
unconscious never leave.
and for the next
verse i'll tell of my trips on Highway 61 .......
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:37:41 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
Tipper Quigg
wrote:
>
> I've come to ask the great Beat
community what should I read? I've
> just
finished reading Dharma Bums, and now I don't know what to read...Here
> are the
books on my list that I still haven't read:
>
> Queer- William Burroughs
> Desolation Angels- Jack Kerouac
> Vanity of Duluoz- Jack Kerouac
> Dr. Sax- Jack Kerouac
>
Tipper,
You need some
poetry on this list. As places to start
I would suggest
Ginsberg's Howl
and Reality Sandwhiches, and a nice smattering of
Snyder, Welch and
Whalen, but then those are my tastes.
Robert
Creeley, and the Black Mtn people also fit here.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:27:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
David wrote:
"Don't recall first time I heard Hwy 61
Revisited but it certainly changed
me."
"....and for the next
verse i'll tell of my trips on Highway
61 ......."
David,
Must confess one of my great
embarrassing blind spots; until digging
into the history
of Son House and the deep blues of Mississippi, I never
amde the Highway
61 connection...never crossed my mind that it was a real
road! Truly one of my favorite songs along with
Tangled up in Blue and
Blind Willie
McTell - but then I could sit here all night typing song titles!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:42:09 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: What's the word on Dylan?
Dawn B. Sova
wrote:
>
> By now, I
suppose that everyone on the list has heard a news blurb that
> confirms
what Mike told us earlier re: Dylan --- appears to be a dangerous
> heart
infection and Columbia records is not saying where he is being treated.
>
> A major
influence on my life -- I feel as if I am waiting for word about a
> family
member.
>
> Dawn
I hope this is
not like when we got the word on Allen's pancreatic
cancer. Dylan is huge for me, as I am sure he is for
a lot of
listmembers. Let's hope for a good end to this particular
story.
It's not time for
Dylan yet, that's for sure.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:47:10 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Diane wrote
my vote is in there for Allen Ginsberg. He was by far
> >the
greatest poet of the twentieth century
Another one who
loves Allen, but greater than Pound, greater than
Williams,
etc-?-I'm not ready to go nearly that far, would love to see a
defense of that
one. The greatest poet of a century is a
pretty tall
order, and I have
only mentioned writers working in English.
James>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:34:45 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
west wrote:
>
> Diane,
> I enjoy Allen Ginsberg more than oxygen, but
that's a pretty hefty
> claim. I
would enjoy a reason if you please.
I was going to
say Allen Ginsberg was the greatest American poet of the
twentieth century
but after I wrote "he was by far the greatest poet of
the twentieth
century," I realized that I do indeed believe that to be
the case. Here's a go at the why. Allen broke barriers of language and
of the mind. He was the only contemporary visionary poet
and I think,
the first since
Walt Whitman. Allen had the visionary
inspiration of
Blake but he was
able to connect his vision to an America we all know.
He was true to
poetic inspiration, and that was an inspiration that could
come from the
streets, bars, jails, and madhouses, and at the same time
go beyond
them. He was able to face the darkness
of his own mind, the
darkness of
America, but write poems that were positive.
He was able to
adapt to a
changing society and never lose sight of his vision; he was
able over many
generations to create a body of work that was still
timely. He was able to live on the edge but never
fall off the edge.
Through his
poetry he gave other poets permission to be themselves. He
literally saved
people's lives because he allowed them the space within
his words to see
that their thoughts were OK and that words were only
just
that...words. Self-involvement in poetry
can go beyond the self,
indulging in
humanness can open the mind to a space beyond humaness. I
think Howl was
was his most important work and it speaks to me as much
today as it did
when I read it for the first time twenty years ago,
>From Howl
"and who
therefore ran through the icy streets obsessed with a sudden
flash of the use
of the elipse the catalog the meter & the vibrating
plane the truth
of poetry,
who dreamt and
made incarnate gaps in Time and Space through images
juxtaposed, and
trapped the archangel of the soul between two visual
images...to
recreate the syntax and measure of poor human prose, and
stand before you
speechless and intelligent and shaking with shame,
rejected yet
confessing out the soul to the rhythm of thought in his
naked and endless
head..."(from Howl).
Quickly, that's
my stab at why. What do you think?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:50:44 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: re-Jan's funeral
John Mitchell
wrote:
>
> Gerry
Nicosia wrote:
>
> <I've
been cut out of Jan's burial, just as I have been cut out of a lot of
> <things
in the last few years. . . . As for me,
I guess I'll sneak in
> someday
<when all the furor and hatred have passed, and pay my respects
> too.
> <Say a
prayer for Jan for me that day, will you? Best, Gerry Nicosia
>
> It is sad
and now sarodically comic that Mr. Nicosia has been cut out of
> Jan's
funeral, but one imagines Hamlet and Laertes (Sampas as Polonius?)
> leaping into
Ophelia's grave and dueling there over her reputation and
> estate. Alas, poor Yorick! We've come to know him well. // John M.
John,
Your posts (along with Bill Gargan's stoic occasional
refereeing) have
been the only
thing that have kept me a step short of homicidal during
this Great Jack
Kerouac Estate War. The Homeric tone,
and now
Shakespeare, are
perfect. Thanks for knowing when to
talk, and what I
have never
learned, when to shut up.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:51:06 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Plattsburg
Hello Beat-list
members,
Can the person
who originally mentioned it, or any other knowlegeable
soul, provide me
with some more info about the June event? Is it an
existing poetry
festival or just a get together.?
or What?
From, Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:53:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> David wrote:
> "Don't recall first time I heard Hwy 61
Revisited but it certainly changed
> me."
>
> "....and for the next verse
i'll tell of my trips on Highway
> 61
......."
>
> David,
>
> Must confess one of my great
embarrassing blind spots; until digging
> into the
history of Son House and the deep blues of Mississippi, I never
> amde the
Highway 61 connection...never crossed my mind that it was a real
> road! Truly one of my favorite songs along with
Tangled up in Blue and
> Blind Willie
McTell - but then I could sit here all night typing song titles!
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
God said to
Abraham (zimmerman)
give me a son
....
61 where the
blues traveled north
also a fine drive
up 61 to the North Country
never did catch
that
girl
just a blizzard
and a CD store
called Postively 4th Street
and the
salesboy
didn't know Dylan
from Frank Sinatra
reading Tarantula
at random
in Salina
and listening to
Bob Dillon
someplace
in a soul near
Marysville
Kansas.
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:43:11 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
RACE --- wrote:
>
> my votes, as
if anyone cares, are as follows
>
> tie for
first - burroughs and neal.
>
> tie for
third - ginsberg and kerouac
>
> fifth -
corso
>
> tie for
sixth - everyone else.
>
> it seems to
me from the little i've gathered so far that burroughs was
> the
intellectual and anthropological force and neal was the motion and
> go go go
behind everything else.
>
> just my
wooden nickel
>
> david rhaesa
Given your list,
I'm curious to find out, in terms of writing produced,
how you think the
works of the others would have turned out, if they had
never met Neal.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:58:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Greatest Poets
theres been
mention of "Ginsberg is the greatest poet of 20th Cent." and
a suggestion that
maybe Pound, Willie Wiiliams, etc...
Good sound
insignificant FUN thread....!
Personally, i
think the notion of A single greatest poet is self defeating.
Though my list of
favorites, so far (in exposure, time), would include
Ginsy, Jack
Kerouac, cummmmmmminnngs, Buk, Corso, Ferlinghetti, Bob
Dylan, and the
list grows. . .
spilling
randomness,
Eric
What do you get
when you teach a donkey about Freud?
Ass - Id
Acid!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:08:13 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
RACE --- wrote:
Read "On the Road" a
> > few
years later without for a long, long time making the connection between
> > Jack
and that cool bearded guy (Ginsberg) that I saw in photos with Dylan.
> > ...and
the Rolling Thunder Tour was pretty great. Saw him in Montreal in '66
> > I guess
with a "pick-up" band called the Hawks and thought "shit,
where's
> >
Bloomfield and Kooper" and then Garth touched his organ keys!
> >
> > Apologies for the only slightly Beat
post. Very affected by
> >
reminiscence of first few posts about Allen Ginsberg.
> >
> > Antoine
> > Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
> >
> > "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to
do!"
> > -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
>
> there has
been an odd connection for me for so long.
>
> in the
Chronicle of the Twentieth Century one of the headlines for the
> week i was
born was Dylan heading from Minnesota to New York. hard to
> believe that
one.
>
> ummm. i imagine i heard him in college - but lived
with two friends who
> mostly had
wars of sound between Rolling Stones and the Who.
>
> Kevin Downey
in Hanover turned me on to OTR, Phil Ochs, and Bob Dylan at
> nearly the
same time. He was a student of
mine. recall visiting
> Folkways in
New York City on a trip shortly after that.
Have a copy of
> Mo
Asch(sp?)'s copy of Broadside issue with Phil Och's retrospective.
> bought albums
with blind boy grunt and all of that.
recall playing Ochs
> and Dylan on
the Dartmouth Green at "Artists Against Apartheid" rally in
> 86 or
so. after that it turned to deeper and
deeper interest. Don't
> recall first
time I heard Hwy 61 Revisited but it certainly changed me.
> Read
everything about Dylan i could find.
used to judge a library or
> bookstore by
its Dylan section. recall talking to the
hippest of the
> Iowa faculty
in my department (while i was tripping) about the potential
> for a
dissertation connections contemporary social theory with dylan and
> he said
impossible. a sad day.
I saw an
interesting interview with Al Kooper on the effect of that
orga work with Dylan. He had never really been an organ player,
just
agreed to do that
organ work to get in the session, and it changed his
life. But I liked him with the Blues Project also.,
James
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:33:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tipper Quigg
<quigg@INFORAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
At 08:43 28/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-28 19:41:50 EDT, you write:
>
><< Dr. Sax- Jack Kerouac >>
>
>Tipper:
>When you read
Dr. Sax, you should also read Last of the Moccasins by Charles
>Plymell
available from Waterrow Books (waterrow@aol.com). There are so many
>books to
recommend, to start Naked Lunch is a must.
>Pam
>
>
> Oh I've read Naked Lunch and worship
it...I've read a whole bunch of
stuff, these are
just the ones I have left to read....
Peace
Tipper
help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:50:38 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
in the realm of
fear and fantasy
i am drunk in
charge of my mind
in the realm of
spontaneous reality
i am stoned at
the wheel of my dream
anxious
not to be
caught
out
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:43:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: This List is Stong
There is a
certain person who shall remain nameless who seems to be trying to
use a series of
posts about who is going to be left to buy a particular
T-Shirt as a
vehicle to continue his argument that the heated disussions over
the Estate Debate
has seriously damaged the Beat-L. This
nameless person is
trying to create
the impression that this list is going to dry up and blow
away due to some
of the heat that was generated the last few weeks. And
given some of
this nameless person's previous posts about me personally I get
the distinct
impression he is trying to make it look like only one particular
"Basketball
Team" is to blame for people unsubscribing. I must take issue
with this entire
line of reasoning!
In the wee hours
of the morning I went thru a bunch of emails that I
downloaded to my
computer. Specifically I used the
Listserv return message
where it says
"YOUR MESSAGE HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY
DISTRIBUTED TO XXX PEOPLE
ON THE
BEAT-L" to track the number of people that have been on the list since
the beginning of
the year.
(As an aside I
have heard before that the number of people mentioned in this
return message is
not exactly the number of people on the list, that in fact
there are more
people on the list than are mentioned in that message.
Regardless of the accuracy of the number I
would imagine the ratios must be
relatively
accurate, which would suggest the conclusions should be the same.
And if I am in any way inaccurate in any of
this I would appreciate a
correction
providing the true data.)
Here's what my
research indicates:
DATE # of Beat-l Recipients
01/16/97 169
01/21/97 179
01/26/97 182
02/24/97 185
03/24/97 200
04/05/97 Allen Ginsberg Dies
04/07/97 229
04/08/97 231
04/09/97 241
04/13/97 245
04/20/97 Rod Anstee's Estate Saga Post
04/24/97 Gerry Nicosia joins
the list
04/26/97 226
04/30/97 214
05/01/97 212
05/02/97 203
05/03/97 200
05/04/97 205
05/05/97 211
05/07/97 207
05/11/97 210
05/14/97 205
05/16/97 207
05/23/97 202
05/24/97 200
05/25/97 193 Memorial Day Weekend
05/26/97 194
05/27/97 193
05/28/97 186 The
Big Sign-Off
What this tells
me is despite the fact that a few people signed off
temporarily in
protest we are not in danger of destroying this list. We all
know people come
and go from this thing all the time.
People sign on for a
while and sign
off after a day or two - happens all the time - how often do
we see a post
that says "Get me oughta here"?
And of course we
saw a big blip when AG died and after a week or two people
started unsubbing
who didn't want to hang around. And we
continued to see
fluctuations and
then the Big Sign Off from Monday also happened to coincide
with the Memorial
Day weekend.
Now other than
Derek and Levi I don't know who may or may not have unsubbed,
and I think we're
all relatively confident those two will reappear when the
smoke has
cleared.
My conclusion
therefore is I do not believe the Beat-l is in any mortal
danger. We all survived the Whitehead/Anstee war of
six months ago and we'll
survive the Great
Estate Debate as well. And I venture to
say there will be
more flame wars
in the future over who knows what and I'll bet a dollar to
donuts we survive
those as well.
We Will Now
Return Control Of Your Televison Sets...
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:12:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Natalie Foster <nfoster@SOUTHWIND.NET>
Subject: Re: Greatest Poets
Add William
Carlos Williams??
natalie
----------
From: Robert H. Sapp[SMTP:rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 1997 9:58 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L
Subject: Greatest Poets
theres been
mention of "Ginsberg is the greatest poet of 20th Cent." and
a suggestion that
maybe Pound, Willie Wiiliams, etc...
Good sound
insignificant FUN thread....!
Personally, i
think the notion of A single greatest poet is self defeating.
Though my list of
favorites, so far (in exposure, time), would include
Ginsy, Jack
Kerouac, cummmmmmminnngs, Buk, Corso, Ferlinghetti, Bob
Dylan, and the
list grows. . .
spilling
randomness,
Eric
What do you get
when you teach a donkey about Freud?
Ass - Id
Acid!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:50:02 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Naked Lunch
Pam:
Starting Naked
Lunch is one thing, finishing it another.
Understanding
it, well, I don't
know.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:21:40 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: parting words
I'll be leaving
the list for an indefinite period, but I'd like to say
that since I
joined last September for the most part beat-l was
extremely
beneficial to me. It reached its zenith two months ago, but
unfortunately its
nadir is occuring now.
Before I leave,
however:
Rinaldo: keep it
up, you're the beetle poet laureate. Loved all yr
posts, including
the floods.
Marie: you're the
voice of reason, hope you're still here if and when I
return.
Jeffrey: Don't
worry, I have every intention of honoring my t-shirt
promise.
Mr. Nicosia, Mr.
Anstee, and the others involved in bringing this list
down: sure, a
couple of you may be published writers, but yr constant
posturing and
ego-defending has left me with a sour taste in my mouth.
You've all been
acting like a bunch of babies these past few weeks. It
took a
horrifiying personal tragedy today to teach me how petty yr
constant
caterwauling has been.
Cheers to all the
rest,
hope to see you
all soon.
Adios
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:21:02 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: (no subject)
FATHER DEATH
BLUES
Hey father death,
I'm flying home
Hey poor man,
you're all alone
Hey old daddy, I
know where I'm going
Father Death,
Don't cry anymore
Mama's there,
underneath the floor
Brother Death,
please mind the store
Old Aunty
Death Don't hide your bones
Old Uncle Death I hear your groans
O Sister
Death how sweet your moans
O Children Deaths
go breathe your breaths
Sobbing
breasts'll ease your Deaths
Pain is gone,
tears take the rest
Genius death your art is done
Lover Death your
body's gone
Father Death I'm coming home
Guru Death your
words are true
Teacher Death I
do thank you
For inspiring me
to sing this Blues
Buddha Death, I
wake with you
Dharma Death,
your mind is new
Sangha Death,
we'll work it through
Suffering is what
was born
Ignorance made me
forlorn
Tearful truths I
cannot scorn
Father Breath
once more farewell
Birth you gave
was no thing ill
My heart is
still, as time will tell.
tearfully yrs
and with an eli
eli lama lama sabachtani saxophone cry,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:18:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: The Devil Came From Kansas
The Devil Came
From Kansas
(music Gary
Brooker/words Keith Reid)
4th cut first
side of Procol Harum/A Salty Dog A&M SP 3123
1969
I.
The Devil came
from Kansas
Where he went to,
I can't say.
Though I teach,
I'm not a preacher,
And I aim to stay
that way.
There's a monkey
riding on my back
Been there for
some time
He says he knows
me very well
And he's no friend
of mine.
Chorus:
I'm not a humble
pilgrim,
There's no need
to scrap and squeeze,
Don't beg for
silver paper,
When I'm trying
to sell you cheap (cheese???).
II.
The Devil came
from Kansas
Where he went to
I can't say
And if you really
are my brother
Then you better
start to pray,
For the sins of
those departed
And those about
to go
There's a dark
cloud above us
Don't tell me
'cause I know
Chorus
Guitar break
(Robin Trower)
Though I never
came from Kansas
Don't forget to thank
the cook
Which reminds of
me of my duty
I was lost but
now I look
For the turning
Kansas sign post
And the road that
which you down
To that pool
inside a forest
In whose water I
will drown.
Chorus
More hot Trower
guitar on the fade out.
What is a weird
english wanna be poet doing writing these words in a
song about
traveling in sailing vessels in the 1800's etc.
Wreck of the
Hesperus another of the songs?
Weird David, if
you don't have this album get it, it is great.
But this
song always
annoyed me. Like maybe it is true or
something. Though I
am sure it is
another archetype.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:49:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
Tipper,
I'd vote for
Desolation Angels. IMO it is Jack's best
book, except for a few
others that were
his best as well!
DA will blends
well with the spirituality of Dharma Bums but also leads you
into the
excitement and action similar to On The Road.
DA was the first
Kerouac Book I
ever read and it's what hooked me on JK.
Consider too (my
opinion mind you) Visions of Gerard (gentle/wonderful/holy)
Maggie Cassidy
(first love;women tend to like this book). Vanity of Duluoz is
very readable for
most beginners to JK. Subterraneans and
Dr. Sax are a
little more
sophisticated and Visions of Cody is also Jack's best book but
you must be
constantly stoned in order to be able to pay attention to it for
long periods.
I tend to read a
few books by the same author in a row to maintain a flow
hence the pass on
WSB for now. Junky is much more readable
to someone new to
Burroughs than
Naked Lunch IMO.
Dig in and enjoy!
Jerry Cimino
Fog City Facts
& Fiction
1-800-KER-OUAC
www.kerouac.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:48:17 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: re-Jan's funeral
At 03:41 PM
5/28/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Gerry Nicosia
wrote:
>
><I've been
cut out of Jan's burial, just as I have been cut out of a lot of
><things in
the last few years. . . . As for me, I
guess I'll sneak in
>someday
<when all the furor and hatred have passed, and pay my respects
>too.
><Say a
prayer for Jan for me that day, will you? Best, Gerry Nicosia
>
>It is sad and
now sarodically comic that Mr. Nicosia has been cut out of
>Jan's
funeral, but one imagines Hamlet and Laertes (Sampas as Polonius?)
>leaping into
Ophelia's grave and dueling there over her reputation and
>estate. Alas, poor Yorick! We've come to know him well. // John M.
>
Where I come from, they used to
consider joking about the dead in
bad taste.
-- GMN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
> James
Stauffer wrote:
>
> > Diane
wrote
> >
> > my vote is in there for Allen Ginsberg. He was by far
> > >
>the greatest poet of the twentieth century
> >
> > Another
one who loves Allen, but greater than Pound, greater than
> >
Williams, etc-?-I'm not ready to go nearly that far, would love to
> see
> > a
> > defense
of that one. The greatest poet of a
century is a pretty
> tall
> > order,
and I have only mentioned writers working in English.
> >
> >
James>
>
> TS Eliot is the best this Century. I mean the Allman Brothers named
> the album
that they dedicated to Duane EAT A PEACH.
>
> And indeed there will be time
> To wonder,
'Do I dare?' and, 'Do I dare?'
> Time to turn
back and descend the stair,
> With a bald
spot in the middle of my hair --
> (They will
say: 'How his hair is growing thin!')
> My morning
coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
> My necktie
rich and modest, but asserted with a simple pin --
> (They will
say: 'But how his arms and legs are thin!')
> Do I dare
> Disturb the
universe?
> In a minute
there is time
> For
decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
>
> For
I have known them all already, known them all --
> Have known
the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
> I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons;
> I know the
voices dying with a dying fall
> Beneath the
music from a farther room,
> So how should I presume?
>
> ............
>
> I am no
prophet -- and here's no great matter;
> I have seen
the moment of my greatness flicker,
> And I have
seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
> And in
short, I was afraid.
>
> ...........................
>
> I grow old...I grow old...
> I shall wear
the bottom of my trousers rolled.
>
> Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
>
>
.........................
>
> We have
lingered in the chambers of the sea
> By sea-girls
wreathed with seaweed red and brown
> Till human
voices wake us, and we drown.
>
> >From the
Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, 1917
> T.S. Eliot
>
> My they will
say
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:07:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Do what is right
This ain't no
poem
This ain't no ode
It ain't the
greatest
Story to be told
But if the
funeral is dere
Invite her
friends
Even if dey is
sickening you
do the right
thing
bring love to the
world
its only a body
its not the girl
do the right
thing
bring love to the
world
open yer heart
else nothing gets
in
in the end, in
the light
whether we like
it
or not, our
dharma is waiting
did you do right
or did ya just
hang on
to yr worldly
passions
heaven or hell
yr actions tell
it ain't no prize
to be one
its just when its
over
was the right
thing done
Do it Do it do do
do do do do it!
Yeah!!!!!!!
Peace and love,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:08:31 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: A quickie question
At 07:09 PM
5/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> alright,
I'm new here and basically new to Beat so this may be a stupid
>>
question, but I was reading the portable Beat reader and an excerpt from
>> junk had
a character named Jack that killed somebody with a pipe and a
>> faucet.
Is that Mr. Kerouac?
>
>
> I think that he beat some poor guy to
deat with a musical instrument or
>something...
I can't remember which book I saw that in.
Maybe The town and
>the city or a
biography or something. But it was more
of a hint and then
>nothing
else...
No.
This story would
be referring to him and a bunch of football players drunk
and hitting some
guy with his violin.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:00:18 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Could be worse
A beat is
ill. Bob Dylan is reported to have
suffered a heart attack.
The Dylan list
says it is an infection in the lining of
the heart which
can be fatal.
Your prayers
should be gifted to him, if you choose to send him Love.
We just lost
Allen, no need to lose another this soon.
And is the Never
Ending Tour ending?
That there is and
there ain't no more,
If you want any
more, you got to sing it yerself.
Peace, and best
to Bob,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:33:48 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
>In a message
dated 97-05-28 10:43:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< driving up from Corning, NY - Finger Lakes,
NY through
> Oneonta,
Schenectedy/Albany etc. >>
>
>Michael,
>You must be
backtrailing the old Mohawk Trail.
>Pam Plymell
>Cherry Valley
Pam,
>From home,
Wheeler Hill (north of Corning, 32 mi., near 2,000' high) follow
the Susquehanna
watershed for 160 miles or so, downstream Conhocton River,
upstream
Susquehanna. Mostly Seneca territory in the hills of southern New
York State
(political boundaries so often completely disregarding natural
boundaries).Then
into Mohawk trail country for a bit. Cherry Valley part of
Mohawk drainage,
isn't it?
Ah, the heart
always races a bit faster when heading north.
In any event,
the creativity,
poetry, sharing of selves through the written/spoken word
always exciting
in new territory.
I'll be in
Gloversville, NY 10th and 11th of June, reading with Rhonda
Morton at
coffeeshop and also young writers workshop/reading. How far's
that from CV?
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:23:12 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
In a message
dated 97-05-28 20:32:18 EDT, you write:
<<
>>
Dear Jeff:
Jeremy said it
for many of us - keep the t-shirts coming!
And, although I
have failed to
say it before --- thank you for going through the work
regarding the
shirts.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:32:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Some of the Dharma
Hi all....Some of
the Dharama...according to an advance uncorrected proof I
saw will be
approx. 350 -400 pages in small print, hardcover, and ina
typeset facsimile
of Jack Kerouac's exact notebook and journal jottings. It
has an
unpublished photo of him on the cover. It will reveal Kerouac to be
what Allen
Ginsber said, "a brilliant, intuitive Buddhist scholar." It will
be out in early
September.
Did you know Jack has a novel-length
manuscript written in French called
"The Night
Is My Woman"? It will be published one day when it is fully
translated.
He also considered Vladimir Nabokov the
"world's greatest, living
writer"
according to his inscribed copy of Lolita.
There will be an "official"
biography of Jack Kerouac.
All the notebooks of Jack Kerouac will be
published together.
Regards
to all, Paul of The Kerouac
Quarterly
Vol. I, No. 2
coming soon.....
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:09:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > my
votes, as if anyone cares, are as follows
> >
> > tie for
first - burroughs and neal.
> >
> > tie for
third - ginsberg and kerouac
> >
> > fifth -
corso
> >
> > tie for
sixth - everyone else.
> >
> > it
seems to me from the little i've gathered so far that burroughs was
> > the
intellectual and anthropological force and neal was the motion and
> > go go
go behind everything else.
> >
> > just my
wooden nickel
> >
> > david
rhaesa
>
> Given your
list, I'm curious to find out, in terms of writing produced,
> how you
think the works of the others would have turned out, if they had
> never met
Neal.
>
> DC
impossible to
guess. they probably would have been
Wall Street Lawyers
without Neal
and/or Burroughs.... :)
seems like that
long letter from Neal showed them how they wanted to
write.
kerouac's famous
novel would be "On the Campus" a tale about Columbia
and Morningside
Park .... :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:53:40 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny people
are!
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 28 May 1997 23:34:45 -0700
from
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Diane, I couldn't
agree more with your eloquent post. I
think you
should send a
copy to Hilton Kramer.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:06:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for
beat-l
David O says the
manuscript of William Burroughs Jr is pretty choppy and
fragmented but
contains poems and drawings too. David Ohle (author of MOTORMAN)
will edit as best
he can and take it from there. Will keep you posted. John
Giorno is coming
into town tonight in the meanwhile.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:51:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
READ :
THE PLACE OF DEAD
ROADS
THE WESTERN LANDS
(especially this one)
by William S
Burroughs. they are, in my opinion, his
best. they're like
candy for your
brain...i read them over and over and over and never wanted
them to end. If youve already read them, ignore this, but
if you haven't,
i'm very jealous
of you cause you got the best read of your life ahead of
you.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:54:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Could be worse
At 12:00 AM
5/29/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>A beat is ill. Bob Dylan is reported to have suffered a
>heart attack.
The Dylan list says it is an infection in the
>lining
of the heart which can be fatal.
Not a heart
attack from my sources. Histioplasmosis
is the
diagnosis (an
infection that can be fatal if not treated in time).
A fungal
infection of the sac surrounding the heart.
I've
heard that there
is a pretty good chance of
turn around,
although it may take months. I believe
this
can be treated
with antibiotics (intravenous), and if
worse comes to
worse, surgery. Who knows the real story
besides the man
himself, we know how secretive he can
be!! I say, Bob rest up and get better, scrap the
August
N. American tour
and take advantage of your down time
to get better.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:05:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Could be worse
M. Cakebread
wrote:
>
> At 12:00 AM
5/29/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> >A beat
is ill. Bob Dylan is reported to have
suffered a
> >heart
attack. The Dylan list says it is an infection in the
> >lining
of the heart which can be fatal.
>
> Not a heart
attack from my sources. Histioplasmosis
is the
> diagnosis
(an infection that can be fatal if not treated in time).
> A fungal
infection of the sac surrounding the heart.
I've
> heard that
there is a pretty good chance of
> turn around,
although it may take months. I believe
this
> can be
treated with antibiotics (intravenous), and if
> worse comes
to worse, surgery. Who knows the real
story
> besides the
man himself, we know how secretive he can
> be!! I say, Bob rest up and get better, scrap the
August
> N. American
tour and take advantage of your down time
> to get
better.
>
> Mike
i just heard that
the illness can be 'caught' from the air in Tennessee
where Bob played
not too long ago. I'm serious - that's
what i heard.
i think the
friend said it is in today's USA TODAY.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:06:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: good byes
In-Reply-To: <338CFF51.A9D8A480@scsn.net>
what a long
strange trip its been:
timlearyjerrygarciaallenginsberg.
bob, if at all
possible, could you stick around for a while more with us?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:14:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
In a message
dated 97-05-29 11:00:35 EDT, you write:
<<
kerouac's famous novel would be "On the
Campus" a tale about Columbia
and Morningside Park .... :)
>>
while we're on
that track...Burroughs' would be "Sunday Brunch", set in the
College Inn, a
diner on Broadway with really greasy food and lots of roaches,
of course.
Ginsberg's...."Scowl",
about haughty ivy league kids trying to out-cool each
other, walking
around campus looking down their noses at each other in
disdain.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:20:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Devil Came From Kansas
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> The Devil
Came From Kansas
> The Devil
came from Kansas
> The Devil
came from Kansas
> Though I
never came from Kansas
> For the
turning Kansas sign post
> Weird
David, this song always annoyed me. Like maybe it is true or
something.
Though I am sure it is another archetype.
and what makes
you think that archetypes aren't true?
wonder what
vision of Kansas they have here in writing this.
Maybe it's the
old John Brown legend. A few thought of
him as Devil.
Others thought
other-wise.
always likes
"some say i got devil, some say i got angel" by melanie
myself.
if the guitar
solo includes a patch of "Home on the Range" and
sunflowers
spontaneously grow in your garden while listening to it, then
the song is
definitely TRUE.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:22:15 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: No Subject hah
took off my
opened the door coat bathroom ran the to before i could close it
I----was panting
ripped it bag fast open as i cooked could spoon black
there's death in
safety, safety in death, said she with a look of horrified
comprehension as
it hit home and she gave one last flicker like a tv set that
just turned off.
The smell of
charcoal and warm molasses. the bitter
taste of blood mixed
with rubbing
alcohol, licked off my arm. Regrets of a
typewriter and
Brooklyn
days. Chaos is not to be fucked with,
I'm afraid. for what dreams
may come? I
dreamed something was chasing me, no--I was chasing it. No.
Something was
chasing me. No.
You can never go
back. They say it and it's true. The hard way. Can you live
with that? Did
you know no one can see the same as you? Was that part of the
bargain? I don't
think so. I've been had. Eternal
longing for the present
to remain so.
Nostalgia for what is, or never was. Do
you wanna slap me? No,
go ahead, I want
you to.
In other words,
everything is familiar to me....everything is similar. Not
similar to, just
similar. All i can say is thank god
everything in this
world is
connected in this way, or i'd have nothing to live for. A
"connections
explorer", discovering neural pathways no man woman or dog has
ever before sent
synapses across. micro/macro-scopic
vision simultaneously.
Now i'm fighting for the most insane thing i
could think of, which is to
think.
Please, god,
don't leave me now.
>I think wsb
explored further and deeper the limits of what can be done with
>words....he
manipulated them and juxtaposed them to create new associative
>pathways, not
just poetry but Original Thought.
Although I like the poetry
>of the other
beats, it's their prose i find less-than-satisfying. Somehow
it
>doesn't make
my synapses snap, crackle and pop like Burroughs' does.
> Although I
enjoy the "moods" of Kerouac and Ginsberg, (sad, nostalgic,
>despairing,
ironic, gleeful, etc.) I prefer the biting sarcasm and
>intersecting
plateaus of humor, disgust, bitterness, futility and hope in
>Burroughs'
work. Not to mention the intellectual
stimulation i get from
>reading him,
which ultimately, inevitably, climaxes into a physical
expulsion
>of
words/paintings/music by me......
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:23:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-05-29 11:00:35 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> kerouac's famous novel would be "On the
Campus" a tale about Columbia
> and Morningside Park .... :)
> >>
> while we're
on that track...Burroughs' would be "Sunday Brunch", set in the
> College Inn,
a diner on Broadway with really greasy food and lots of roaches,
> of course.
Is this the Diner
a few blocks southwest of Columbia? The
Suzanne Vega
song about Tom's
Diner describes the one i'm thinking about perfectly as
well.
>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:44:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: For Bill Gargan
Bill,
Could you contact
me off list by e-mail. I don't have your
email address
and there's no
point in carrying this out on list.
many thanks,
Bruce Hartman
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:50:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: No Subject hah
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
wonderful passage
provided. i took the liberty of some
linear
restructuring in
the first paragraph for those who need it - but of
course - the
situation being described is far beyond linear and the
confusion so
profound that the mixing of the words actually makes the
most sense. also a few random cheers from the choir
thrown in
parenthetically.
opened the
door/took off my coat/ran to the bathroom before i could
close it (the
door not the coat)
> I----was
panting/ I----ripped bag open fast/
as it cooked i
could spoon black/
"there's
death in safety, safety in death," said she with a look of
horrified
comprehension as it (not the comprehension) hit home and she
gave one last
flicker like a tv set that just turned off.
>
> The smell of
charcoal and warm molasses. the bitter
taste of blood mixed with
rubbing alcohol, licked off my arm. Regrets of a typewriter and Brooklyn days.
Chaos is not to be fucked with, I'm
afraid. for what dreams may come? I
dreamed something was chasing me, no--I was
chasing it. No. Something was
chasing me. No.
(incredible - he
could have just set something like "she was confused")
> You can
never go back. They say it and it's true. The hard way. Can you live
with that? Did you know no one can see the
same as you? Was that part of the
bargain? I don't think so. I've been had.
(who hasn't felt
this thought?)
Eternal longing
for the present to remain so. Nostalgia for what is, or
never was.
(another
universal feeling)
Do you wanna slap
me? No, go ahead, I want you to.
(damn funny)
>
> In other
words, everything is familiar to me....everything is similar. Not
similar to, just similar.
(he is way ahead
of the postmodernists right here)
All i can say is
thank god everything in this world is connected in this
way, or i'd have
nothing to live for. A "connections
explorer",
discovering
neural pathways no man woman or dog has ever before sent
synapses
across. micro/macro-scopic vision
simultaneously.
(this provides a
great clue in to "how" to read burroughs)
> Now i'm fighting for the most insane thing i
could think of, which is to
think.
Please, god, don't leave me now.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:14:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Could be worse
At 10:05 AM
5/29/97 -0500, david rhaesa wrote:
>i just heard
that the illness can be 'caught' from the air in Tennessee
>where Bob
played not too long ago. I'm serious -
that's what i heard.
>i think the
friend said it is in today's USA TODAY.
I believe you can
also carry the infection for years before it
sufaces and
becomes serious. Not to say this is the
case,
maybe he did get
it while in the Indiana, Tennessee area?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:16:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
In a message
dated 97-05-29 09:48:34 EDT, you write:
<< Dear
Jeff:
Jeremy said it for many of us - keep the
t-shirts coming! And, although I
have failed to say it before --- thank you for
going through the work
regarding the shirts.
Dawn
>>
Dawn: Thanks for
your vote of confidence...
Here's the latest
news for all you Beat-L supporters and well-mannered polite
members of Klub
Kerouac:
The S. Clay
Wilson artwork for the shirt is completed and the shirts are
being
silkscreened now out in Oakland, California (giving the shirts a "Bay
Area/San
Francisco" birthplace)...
S. Clay Wilson,
well-reknowned for his work with R. Crumb and other
underground
cartoonists on ZAP comix, is a very detailed, meticulous
arteeeste but I
must say that working with him on this project has been a
real
pleasure....If you get a chance, check out his other stuff that's
available...
The Beat-L
T-shirt shows a bearded and beret-headed old poet selling poems
for spare
change...a college coed/librarian type drops a coin in the tin cup
as the Beat
poet's heart flutters at her bountiful sight...The coed imagines
a falling leaf as
"sheer poetry" - a nice take-off on R. Crumb's famous image
of a
Ginsberg-type guy standing in a tenement NYC neighborhood watching a
leaf fall through
the air, thinking, "This to me is sheer poetry." (the Crumb
image was used on
the cover of
Art Spiegelman/Bill
Griffith's ARCADE a looong time ago and the image was
recently
re-issued on a
Crumb signed/numbered silkscreen print) - WHOA - back to the
subject,Jeffrey -
you're floating away (again!) -
Anyway, that's
the Beat-L T-shirt image.....The "Beat-L" name is highlighted
across the
background and below the spare change endowed Beat poet, there's
the address for
the Beat-L so passers-by who see your shirt will run home and
join the list!
There's even a
nice note of recognition to Brooklyn College (a tip of the
beret to William
Gargan for putting up with all our BS recently!) -
The T-shirt is
available in sizes Large - Extra Large - and Extra Extra
Large.
The shirt is the
best quality available 100% cotton Fruit of the Loom
preshrunk.
Black ink on
gorgeous light blue (as of press time today)...
I promised to
make the shirt available to Beat-L members at my cost and so I
shall...
Since I had made
only a few hundred rather than thousands of shirts...the
price to have
them made was higher than I originally thought. I paid S. Clay
Wilson $1000.00
to do the project
and there were miscellaneous set-up charges at the T-shirt
printers. But
with the help of Bruce Hilvitz at Oink! Design in San Francisco
(co-owner of SF's
"Scairy Hairy Toy Company" (check out their web page for
great handmade
toys and other cooool stuff: www.scairyhairy.com), everything
has been fun- in
fact to answer Zippy the Pinhead: "Yes, we are having fun
(yet)".
With shipping to
all the dark corners of the globe in a sturdy
label-addressed
postage affixed
mailing bag - the grand total for this fabulous Beat-L
T-shirt is
only $18.00 (no
tax/no handling/no hidden charges) -
As usual, Water
Row Books stands behind this T-shirt with the Water Row
"satisfaction
guranteed" guarantee. Master Card/Visa/Check/Money Order
accepted.
Don't forget t
ell me what size you desire (L-XL-XXL)...
The shirts will
be ready to ship in about 2-3 weeks...
Foreign folks: if
you want your shirts shipped air mail, please add $5.00.
I'll pay the way
for surface mail if you don't mind waiting a month to
receive your
order...
I have posted the
artwork for the shirt on the web for you all to check
out...
Please remember
that no computer screen scanned image can do justice to
Wilson's glorious
use of tone, depth,and shading...His stuff is chock full of
detail and very
intense!!! The web page will give you some ides of the
image...This
shirt is awesome!!!
I am in the
process of building a Water Row web site
but in the meanwhile,
here's the
temporary addresses to check out the shirt and some other Beat
stuff:
The Beat-L
T-Shirt Site: http://shell6.ba.best.com/~waterrow/beatl.html/
Other Water Row
Beat T-shirts:
http://shell6.ba.best.com/~waterrow/shirtpage/html/
Water Row Press
Beat Books In Print:
http://shell6.ba.best.com/~waterrow/inprint.html/
I hope all these
addresses work...If not, blame it on Bruce Hilvitz (Web
Mashugana)..
Oh - one more
thing: Sources tell me that Charlie Plymell, resident Beat-L
poet and auteur
extrodinaire, was the model for the Beat poet on Beat-L
shirt!
Later, Daddy (and
Mommy) -'Os
Jeffrey H.
Weinberg
Water Row Books
PO Box 438
Sudbury MA 01776
Tel 508-485-8515
Fax 508-229-0885
EMail
Waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:17:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Could be worse
In-Reply-To: <338D9B29.4E27@midusa.net>
On Thu, 29 May
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> > Not a
heart attack from my sources.
Histioplasmosis is the
> >
diagnosis (an infection that can be fatal if not treated in time).
>
> i just heard
that the illness can be 'caught' from the air in Tennessee
> where Bob
played not too long ago. I'm serious -
that's what i heard.
ACK! I hope
not.....!
Jeff Taylor
nashville, tennessee
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:30:47 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen
<Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: my definition...
I'm not beat
I just can't
sleep
nh
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:36:26 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: The Devil Came From Kansas
RACE --- wrote:
> R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
> >
> > The
Devil Came From Kansas
> > The
Devil came from Kansas
> > The
Devil came from Kansas
> > Though
I never came from Kansas
> > For the
turning Kansas sign post
>
> > Weird
David, this song always annoyed me. Like maybe it is true or
>
> something.
Though I am sure it is another archetype.
>
> and what
makes you think that archetypes aren't true?
> wonder what
vision of Kansas they have here in writing this.
> Maybe it's
the old John Brown legend. A few thought
of him as Devil.
> Others
thought other-wise.
> always likes
"some say i got devil, some say i got angel" by melanie
> myself.
> if the
guitar solo includes a patch of "Home on the Range" and
> sunflowers
spontaneously grow in your garden while listening to it,
> then
> the song is
definitely TRUE.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
> >
Race:
By true, I meant,
maybe the Devil really did come from Kansas.
Otherwise it is
an archetype vision that is true in another way as we
only see the
shadows on the wall of the cave, not the true light.
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:36:37 BST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Harberd
<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
On Thu, 29 May
1997 10:51:10 -0400 Maya Gorton wrote:
> READ :
> THE PLACE OF
DEAD ROADS
> THE WESTERN
LANDS (especially this one)
I think TWL is
the book where all Burrough's previous ideas
and iconography
come together. Having worked my way
through
the whole canon,
it was an amazing feeling to see it all
come together,
not only as repetition, but as expanded
discourse.
Try Ghost of
Chance as well, because it's brilliant.
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"When the
going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:52:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: annoying
Yo, Bentz:
I concur wholeheartedly with your choice of
Mr. Eliot, as much as I love
Allen, and Gary,
and Lew, and Philip, and WCW, and cummings,etc.
Scuttling along
in Altoona,
Dixon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:40:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rodgers
<Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMAIL.VITRO.COM>
Subject: News Update
(A SATIRE)
Anchor:
We will now go to Ron Rodgers who is standing by inside the
House of Beat-l.
RR:
I am standing in the middle of the kitchen area that can be
described as hot..DAMN HOT. In fact it feels hotter than the hinges
on the gates to hell. It is a very chaotic scene as beat-l members
who cannot take this intense heat line up
to jump out of the window;
plunging into the wading pool seven
stories below. We have identified
one of the jumpers as Levon Cash, a renown
news "beat" reporter. So
far a dozen or so have left the kitchen,
and I will try to identify
them and others as this story
progresses. I have just been informed
that two..no three... more have left.
Anchor:
What about the orgin of the kitchen fire, and are there any
suspects?
RR:
Apparently the flames started in April and have continued to
blaze.
Officials say this is what is classified as a "carbon" fire.
This phenomenon occurs under idel conditions
when bond paper touches
exposed carbon paper. City service squads are on the look out four
suspects.
They are John Grand, Harold Nickels, Bill Shaloo, and Ron
Friendly.
Federal authorities may be brought in to round up others.
Anchor:
Ron, what are authorities doing to calm the flames?
RR: Firefighter Bill (Gartland) has
bravely but vainly attempted to
provide a voice of reason to extinguish
these flames. There is also a
volunteer core of members assisting
Firefighter Bill. The
Extinguishing Crew is attired in asbestos
lined T-shirts designed by
T. Mudd Winslow. Across the front of the shirt is the slogan
REMEMBER RON BONEWHEEL. These shirts were
shipped free to the crew
courtesy of Gary Lineberger from Air-Row
Press.
Anchor:
We are going to break in now, as this story has reached
overseas.
Here is our italian correspondent Sergio Pistone.
SP:
quid
skhgvu
not
loenvhfy
can satisfy clomdy'
urges d
k
b
k tldi
heotur
rlskvnhgu
tlnmbndieurbfg
Anchor:
Thank you Sergio. Ron, do you
fear for your safety?
RR:
No, and I'll be honest with you, it's like the facination one has
with a train wreck or America's Most
Tragic Events Captured on Video.
And frankly this is what I get paid to do.
Anchor:
Any plans of leaving?
RR:
No way. I'm here until the end.
By the way, the flames do seem
to be a bit more under control at this
time, but no one is willing to
speculate how long this will last.
Reporting from the middle of the Beat-l
kitchen, Ron Rodgers.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:12:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NIGON
<Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>
Subject: News Update -Reply
HHHAAAAAAA!!
SFX: LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE COUPLED WITH COUGHING.
VOICE OFF
CAMERA: "I gotta quit
smoking..."
This made my
dreary day quite a bit brighter.
Thanks,
-Mark
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:06:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: News Update
Rodgers wrote:
> patricia
howled, this is the first posting i printed & planned to frame
patricia
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:14:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
In a message
dated 97-05-29 12:43:05 EDT, you write:
<<
Maya Gorton wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-05-29 11:00:35 EDT,
you write:
>
> <<
>
kerouac's famous novel would be "On the Campus" a tale about
Columbia
>
and Morningside Park .... :)
>
>>
> while we're on that track...Burroughs'
would be "Sunday Brunch", set in
the
> College Inn, a diner on Broadway with
really greasy food and lots of
roaches,
> of course.
Is this the Diner a few blocks southwest of
Columbia? The Suzanne Vega
song about Tom's Diner describes the one i'm
thinking about perfectly as
well.
>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas >>
Yeah, it's a much
greasier and more interesting diner than Tom's.
I was once
studying for
exams there and the old bearded man sitting in the booth next to
mine was talking
to a stuffed animal which he had seated on the bench across
from him. he proceeded to tell me the story of the
stuffed animal's life,
from it's
purchase to it's fate as a gift to his mother's gynecologist. Don't
ask me. But I was
glad for the distraction from my studies, as always. Then
the guy whips out
this jewelry case and starts to examine something inside it
with one of those
werid magnifying glasses diamond-cutters wear.
I was
curious, so i
discreetly slipped behind him as if i was going towards the
bathroom so i
could get a better view of whatever was inside the case.
.......And guess
what it was?????
Can anyone guess?
I'll give you a prize for the correct answer, or the best
and most creative
answer. the prize is: my respect. So
I'll be hearing from
you.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:08:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing co
Subject: Web Pages
Comments: To:
waterrow@aol.com
Jeff:
I went to your
BeatL and shirtpage sites. I couldn't get the images to
load until I
deleted the / at the end of the URL (.html/ changed to
.html) and
reloaded the URL. Then the images loaded nicely.
Charles looks
like a lion, or otherwise an extremely hep cat! Charles
defines
"hepness," (to put it in less than E-prime, Charles is hepness),
so it fits.
Superb concept from start to near finish! I will buy two of
'em. Fantastic
job! It just can't get much better than this...
Thanks!
Michael L.
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:20:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NIGON
<Mark_Nigon@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM>
Subject: News Update -Reply
Hey Beat-L,
Rodgers - I have
to say that after all the fighting, arguing, pleading,
apologizing,
words and wishes, I found your News Report quite
refreshing! Broke me out of my workaday trance and made
me hesitate
while trigger
finger rested on delete key. Will there
be another???
-Mark
MARK_NIGON@MAIL.CAMPBELL-MITHUN.COM
>>>
Rodgers <Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMAIL.VITRO.COM> 05/29/97 11:40am
>>>
(A SATIRE)
Anchor:
We will now go to Ron Rodgers who is standing by inside
the
House of Beat-l.
RR:
I am standing in the middle of the kitchen area that can be
described as hot..DAMN HOT. In fact it feels hotter than the
hinges
on the gates to hell. It is a very chaotic scene as beat-l members
who cannot take this intense heat line up
to jump out of the
window;
plunging into the wading pool seven
stories below. We have
identified
one of the jumpers as Levon Cash, a renown
news "beat" reporter. So
far
a dozen or so have left the kitchen, and I will try to identify
them and others as this story
progresses. I have just been
informed
that two..no three... more have left.
Anchor:
What about the orgin of the kitchen fire, and are there
any
suspects?
RR:
Apparently the flames started in April and have continued to
blaze.
Officials say this is what is classified as a "carbon"
fire.
This phenomenon occurs under idel
conditions when bond paper
touches
exposed carbon paper. City
service squads are on the look out four
suspects.
They are John Grand, Harold Nickels, Bill Shaloo, and
Ron
Friendly.
Federal authorities may be brought in to round up
others.
Anchor:
Ron, what are authorities doing to calm the flames?
RR: Firefighter Bill (Gartland) has
bravely but vainly attempted to
provide a voice of reason to extinguish
these flames. There is
also a
volunteer core of members assisting
Firefighter Bill. The
Extinguishing Crew is attired in asbestos
lined T-shirts designed
by
T. Mudd Winslow. Across the front of the shirt is the slogan
REMEMBER RON BONEWHEEL. These shirts were
shipped free to the crew
courtesy of Gary Lineberger from Air-Row
Press.
Anchor:
We are going to break in now, as this story has reached
overseas.
Here is our italian correspondent Sergio Pistone.
SP:
quid
skhgvu
not
loenvhfy
can satisfy clomdy'
urges d
k
b
k tldi
heotur
rlskvnhgu
tlnmbndieurbfg
Anchor:
Thank you Sergio. Ron, do you
fear for your safety?
RR:
No, and I'll be honest with you, it's like the facination one
has
with a train wreck or America's Most
Tragic Events Captured on
Video.
And frankly this is what I get paid to do.
Anchor:
Any plans of leaving?
RR:
No way. I'm here until the end.
By the way, the flames do
seem
to be a bit more under control at this
time, but no one is willing
to
speculate how long this will last.
Reporting from the middle of the Beat-l kitchen,
Ron Rodgers.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:27:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: This List is Stong
In-Reply-To:
<970529024333_1558462326@emout18.mail.aol.com>
I agree Jerry.
The list is strong and continues to provide information.
Exchanges got a
little heated, and although my position on the archives of
the likes of JK,
AG and others is well known, I don't
take anything
personally. Age
helps.
I'm troubled by
people seeming to blame Nicosia for the conflicts, but a
careful reading
of the posts shows that he has provided much information.
Yes, he does get
stressed and makes demands, but if his responses can be
understood,
considering the accusatioons and his position as a Kerouac
scholar and
friend to Jan. I'm familiar with the time
and money nicosia
has provided Jan,
not from Nicosia, but from Jan Keroauc personally.
Nicosia was her
most trusted friend. I'd planned on giving her a couple of
months of my time
as a secretary--just taking dictation. Her inability to
see well enough
to write--to work at a keyboard--caused her much distress.
I've not been
with the list long enough to speak about the past. I see
these flare-ups
as raising individual temperatures, but the material that
keeps the Beat
juices flowing is the steady flow of
questions, answers,
comments, humor,
history and the incredible insights provided by members.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:27:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Web Pages
Michael L.
Buchenroth wrote:
>
> Jeff:
> I went to
your BeatL and shirtpage sites. I couldn't get the images to
> load until I
deleted the / at the end of the URL (.html/ changed to
> .html) and
reloaded the URL. Then the images loaded nicely.
>
> Charles
looks like a lion, or otherwise an extremely hep cat! Charles
> defines
"hepness," (to put it in less than E-prime, Charles is hepness),
> so it fits.
Superb concept from start to near finish! I will buy two of
> 'em.
Fantastic job! It just can't get much better than this...
>
> Thanks!
> Michael L.
Buchenroth
What a great day
it is, thanks the suggestion worked for me and me i
saw. loved it but
i am such a fanafan of s clay so thanksjeff, charly, s
clay allen nice
lady.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:56:48 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA,
Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Subject: Re: Could be worse
Paul Harvey, a
notorious closet Dylan Fan, reported Dylan's illness on his
news show today
and mentioned that Dylan has been all over the world and he
could have picked
it up anywhere.
I spoke to
Ramblin' Jack Elliott last August and he said Dylan had not been
drinking much
anymore, and when I saw him in August of '94 he looked slimmed
down and sober
for a change. He gave a couple of shows
in Louisville
previously to
that one that left you with the impression he and bourbon (known
in Kentucky as
The Breakfast of Champions) had a very unhealthy relationship
with each
other. But in '94 and again in '96 he
kicked royal ass. Press
reports are that
his shows have never been better.
I hope he takes a
break to relax and maybe get out of his son's (Jakob)
shadow.
In all
seriousness, I love you, Bob. I don't
want yer Bud Lite, just take
care of yerself.
Paul McDonald
********************************************************************************
On Thu, 29 May
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> > Not a
heart attack from my sources.
Histioplasmosis is the
> >
diagnosis (an infection that can be fatal if not treated in time).
>
> i just heard
that the illness can be 'caught' from the air in Tennessee
> where Bob
played not too long ago. I'm serious -
that's what i heard.
ACK! I hope
not.....!
Jeff Taylor
nashville,
tennessee
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:56:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: News Update
...boy Ron...it's
a mystery to me!
I'm looking at
the back section of my copy of Ann Charters' biography of Sal
Paradise and I'll
be damned if I can find these other names anywhere in her
identity key.
Well, I'll read
it again....maybe it'll become obvious... I don't
know...these Beat
types - you'd think they would've learned something about
clarity in
writing from Joyce and the other GOOD writers they SUPPOSEDLY
were studying in
school.
Ha! ...studying -
that's another joke!
Antoine
(schlepping off
down the hall muttering and harrumphing to himself and
anyone who'll
listen)
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:09:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: News Update
Hope Springs
Eternal!
Don't know
if should be sad or glad "Gary
Sillido" wasn't listed as a
"suspect".
Very clever, Ron
Rodgers!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:00:34 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny people
are!
It was a
mummified fetus from an ectopic pregnancy that his mother
experienced. Her
gynecologist had correctly diagnosed and surgically removed
it. It was
sitting in the case next to his mother's gall stone....
Here's hoping - Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:15:11 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tipper Quigg
<quigg@INFORAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
At 10:51 29/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>READ :
>THE PLACE OF
DEAD ROADS
>THE WESTERN
LANDS (especially this one)
>by William S
Burroughs. they are, in my opinion, his
best. they're like
>candy for
your brain...i read them over and over and over and never wanted
>them to
end. If youve already read them, ignore
this, but if you haven't,
>i'm very
jealous of you cause you got the best read of your life ahead of
>you.
>
>
> Well the question was which of the books
I listed should i read, but
I'll check these
out...Thanx...
Tipper
help the
economy...buy a Neil Young album...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:37:23 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: drinks are on me
In-Reply-To: <970529112211_-464271685@emout19.mail.aol.com>
oh what the hell.
i got up at 5am
EST and downloaded mail..
and hit all
news-webs, etc even resorted to tv
and then i
thought i'd send good vibes bob's way
so i got all ALL
the dylan stuff
oh bout 5 am or
so
and with a few
excusions out into the world to procure
more micro brews
i've been here
with
dylan in the
air
on the
prayers
of a (and you say
impossible as he hands you a bone.. and something is
happening here
and you don't know what it is.
do you
mr jones
mr rogers
mr prezidint
mr whoose
and the mrs
"ah you've
been with the professors and they all like yr looks....
you're very well
read its well known
but something (oh
etc
do you, mr
jones???
ok enough ale
soaked e'missives. talk to ya later.
mc
cant stand it
jerry garcia tim leary AG now bob
burp) well, later
guys. this day sucks.
mc
he's been in my
mind since the 4th grade, before jerry and the funny guys
and all the
rest..
remembering going
to local downtown appliance store that stocked 45s i
bought them all
as they came out, right across from the refridgerators,
separated by the
stoves,
the universe
cracked
and i saw.
i think i was 9
or so
(when yr mother
sends back all yr invitations
and yr father to
yr sister he explains
that you're tired
of yourself and all your creations
wont you come see
me queesn jane?
(btw no esoteric
messages being sent just quotes off what ever on highway
61 play as i am
tipsily typing
oh
mc
of
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:45:21 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch
do it do it do it
it takes a
special person to read naked lunch
you will be all
the better for it
----------
: From: R. Bentz
Kirby <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject: Naked
Lunch
: Date: Thursday,
May 29, 1997 12:50 AM
:
: Pam:
:
: Starting Naked
Lunch is one thing, finishing it another.
Understanding
: it, well, I
don't know.
:
: Peace,
:
: --
: Bentz
: bocelts@scsn.net
:
:
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:38:03 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: andrew szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
argh,
i forgot to mention this
earlier, but i went to the
surge festival last weekend in
pittsburgh, pennsylvania,
and to my enjoyment one of the bands played a
song
about kerouac. their name eludes me, but...
the only thing that bothers me
was that i felt
like i was lost in a sea of people that
didn't know whom
kerouac was. still, my solitary delirium was wonderful.
i felt like i should claw my way to the
stage and shake
their hands, but i only stood with an
open mouth--
--drooling.
still drooling,
andrew
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:59:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat History
In-Reply-To: <3385E8A6.CB77F85@scsn.net>
On Fri, 23 May
1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Would Tom
Wolfe of Electric Koolaid Acid Test and Hunter Thompson of
> Fear and
Loathing qualify as "beat."
****************************************
Whether or not
Hunter S. Thompson qualifies as beat is debatable. He was
a friend of Ginsburg's. Presumably they met while HST was researching
for
"Hell's
Angels," as Ginsburgh frequented
the Angels gatherings as well.
He's certainly
Gonzo--- zany, free form, journalism---but beat?
Anyhow, I just
thought I'd pass on the aquaintance issue; other than that,
it's worth
consideration.
Jenn
> And yet, I
am wondering if there is not at least two threads of
> literature
throughout history. I don't know enough
and am not well read
> enough to
deal with this idea on my own. But it
seems to me that you
> have two
spirits, one which is the "voice" of society and the other
> which is the
"voice" of those who are beaten out of society. If so, it
> would run
throughout time. I would like to know if
any literary
> teachers,
commentators etc, have ever explored the idea.
Back to Homer,
> was he beat
or was he society. What about Thomas
Aquianas? Maybe this
> too large of
an idea, but I would like to see the result of a study of
> this
idea. We have always been beat.
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:24:21 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: My guess for Maya
Maya,
I enjoyed the anecdote. Have several similar ones from the psychiatric
ward but
nevermind.
Okay, here's my guess about what the guy
was examining: a piece a shit?
No. A kidney stone. No.
Uh, a big piece a ham. No, too
obvious. It had
to be that
notorious, potentially forged signature.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:26:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> .......And
guess what it was?????
> Can anyone
guess? I'll give you a prize for the correct answer, or the best
> and most
creative answer. the prize is: my
respect. So I'll be hearing from
> you.
two box elder
bugs fucking.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:02:52 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: n/a
...to live
outside the law you must be honest
i know you always say that you agree
alright so where are you tonight....
well, today is a
sad day, folks.
[dylan to
burroughs : "if you see her say hello... she might be in
tangiers"]
...say for me
that i'm alright, tho' things get kind of slow ; she might
think that i've
forgotten her... don't tell her it isn't so.
. the ghost of
electricity... whatever.
o.r. ("when
asked to define yourself... say that you are an exact
mathematician.")
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:21:59 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: Call for Papers
Subj: Call for Proposals
From:
"Skerl, Jennie" <jskerl@wcupa.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 May
97 10:16:00 PDT
I will be editing
a special issue of COLLEGE LITERATURE on "Teaching the
Beat
Generation." The notice below will
appear in the next issue of PMLA.
I wonder if you have a mailing list from the
Kerouac Symposium I could
have
access to for
further distribution. Or, if you have an
email list, could
you forward this
notice by email? Thanks for any help you
can give me.
I enjoyed
attending the symposium last year.
Please keep me on your
mailing
list.
Best,
Jennie Skerl
------------------------------------
COLLEGE LITERATURE,
a triannual journal of scholarly criticism that
supports
college/university
teaching, seeks essays for a special issue on "Teaching
the Beat
Generation." Contributions are
sought from a variety of critical
perspectives,
including poststructuralist, postmodernist, feminist,
multicultural,
historical, millennial, or personal.
Essays may be devoted
to individual
authors, groups of writers, or the movement.
Review essays
of
current criticism
or biography will also be considered.
Send 1-3 page
proposals by
January 1, 1998, to Dr. Jennie Skerl, Associate Dean, College
of Arts and
Sciences, West Chester University, West Chester, PA 19301.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:23:58 -0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
>argh,
>
> i forgot to mention this earlier,
but i went to the
> surge festival last weekend in
pittsburgh, pennsylvania,
> and to my enjoyment one of the bands
played a song
> about kerouac. their name eludes me, but...
>
> the only thing that bothers me
was that i felt
> like i was lost in a sea of people that
didn't know whom
> kerouac was. still, my solitary delirium was wonderful.
> i felt like i should claw my way to the
stage and shake
> their hands, but i only stood with an
open mouth--
>
> --drooling.
>
>
> still
drooling,
>
andrew
>
andrew, what is
10,000 Maniacs? They do a song entitled Jack Kerouac.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:34:08 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Could be worse
In a message
dated 97-05-29 11:17:33 EDT, you write:
<< i just
heard that the illness can be 'caught' from the air in Tennessee
where Bob played not too long ago >>
Damn, I'm going
to be driving through Tennessee soon, I guess I'll have to
keep the windows
rolled up. (It also seems I WON'T be visiting Jeff Taylor)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:35:32 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: News Update
Rodgers wrote:
> (A SATIRE)
>
> Anchor:
We will now go to Ron Rodgers who is standing by inside
> the
> House of Beat-l.
>
> RR:
I am standing in the middle of the kitchen area that can be
> described as hot..DAMN HOT. In fact it feels hotter than the
> hinges
> on the gates to hell. It is a very chaotic scene as beat-l
> members
> who cannot take this intense heat line up
to jump out of the
> window;
> plunging into the wading pool seven
stories below. We have
> identified
> one of the jumpers as Levon Cash, a
renown news "beat" reporter.
> So
> far a dozen or so have left the kitchen,
and I will try to
> identify
> them and others as this story
progresses. I have just been
> informed
> that two..no three... more have left.
>
> Anchor:
What about the orgin of the kitchen fire, and are there
> any
> suspects?
>
> RR:
Apparently the flames started in April and have continued to
>
> blaze.
Officials say this is what is classified as a "carbon"
> fire.
> This phenomenon occurs under idel
conditions when bond paper
> touches
> exposed carbon paper. City service squads are on the look out
> four
> suspects.
They are John Grand, Harold Nickels, Bill Shaloo, and
> Ron
> Friendly.
Federal authorities may be brought in to round up
> others.
>
> Anchor:
Ron, what are authorities doing to calm the flames?
>
> RR: Firefighter Bill (Gartland) has
bravely but vainly attempted
> to
> provide a voice of reason to extinguish
these flames. There is
> also a
> volunteer core of members assisting
Firefighter Bill. The
> Extinguishing Crew is attired in asbestos
lined T-shirts designed
> by
> T. Mudd Winslow. Across the front of the shirt is the slogan
> REMEMBER RON BONEWHEEL. These shirts were
shipped free to the
> crew
> courtesy of Gary Lineberger from Air-Row
Press.
>
> Anchor:
We are going to break in now, as this story has reached
> overseas.
Here is our italian correspondent Sergio Pistone.
>
> SP:
quid
> skhgvu
> not
> loenvhfy
can satisfy clomdy'
>
> urges d
k
>
> b
k tldi
> heotur
> rlskvnhgu
>
tlnmbndieurbfg
>
> Anchor:
Thank you Sergio. Ron, do you
fear for your safety?
>
> RR:
No, and I'll be honest with you, it's like the facination
> one has
> with a train wreck or America's Most
Tragic Events Captured on
> Video.
> And frankly this is what I get paid to
do.
>
> Anchor:
Any plans of leaving?
>
> RR:
No way. I'm here until the end.
By the way, the flames do
> seem
> to be a bit more under control at this
time, but no one is
> willing to
> speculate how long this will last.
> Reporting from the middle of the Beat-l
kitchen, Ron Rodgers.
ROTFLMAO
You go boy!
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:42:36 -0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Histoplasmosis
>A beat is
ill. Bob Dylan is reported to have
suffered a heart attack.
>The Dylan
list says it is an infection in the lining of
the heart which
>can be fatal.
The infection in
the lining is the same thing my father has, he went to
the hospital and
they thought it was cancer but they found out it was
Histoplasmosis.
Now he has to go the hospital every two years to get it
checked, to make
sure it hasn't grown. Just a note.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:49:08 -0700
Reply-To: e.lytle@ced.utah.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle
<e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Organization:
Sarcos Inc.
>
> andrew, what
is 10,000 Maniacs? They do a song entitled Jack Kerouac.
>
10,000 Maniacs broke up several years
ago. It's more likely to be
Morphine, the three-man, sax-bass-drums combo, from the Joy, Kicks
CD.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:46:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Histoplasmosis
west wrote:
>
> >A beat
is ill. Bob Dylan is reported to have
suffered a heart attack.
> >The
Dylan list says it is an infection in the lining of the heart which
> >can be
fatal.
>
> The
infection in the lining is the same thing my father has, he went to
> the hospital
and they thought it was cancer but they found out it was
>
Histoplasmosis. Now he has to go the hospital every two years to get it
> checked, to
make sure it hasn't grown. Just a note.
>
> west
>
> I belong to
the blank generation
> and I can
take or leave it each time
> -Richard
Hell
Can your Dad
still tour?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:50:15 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
><<
> kerouac's
famous novel would be "On the Campus" a tale about Columbia
> and
Morningside Park .... :)
> >>
>while we're
on that track...Burroughs' would be "Sunday Brunch", set in the
>College Inn,
a diner on Broadway with really greasy food and lots of roaches,
>of course.
>
>Ginsberg's...."Scowl",
about haughty ivy league kids trying to out-cool each
>other,
walking around campus looking down their noses at each other in
>disdain.
>
Ha! that's the
funniest thing I've ever heard in my entire life, but
would Lawrence
Ferlinghetti (i have trouble spelling me own name) still
be writing poems
about his dog?
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:55:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Subject hah
dear, racey
What do you
mean,"he"?????
I wrote this!!!
In a message
dated 97-05-29 14:32:15 EDT, you write:
<< f
charcoal and warm molasses. the bitter
taste of blood mixed with
rubbing alcohol, licked off my arm. Regrets of a typewriter and Brooklyn
days.
Chaos is not to be fucked with, I'm
afraid. for what dreams may come? I
dreamed something was chasing me, no--I was
chasing it. No. Something was
chasing me. No.
(incredible - he could have just set something
like "she was confused")
> You can never go back. They say it and
it's true. The hard way. Can you
live
with that? Did you know no one can see the
same as you? Was that part of
the
bargain? I don't think so. I've been had.
(who hasn't felt this thought?)
Eternal longing for the present to remain so.
Nostalgia for what is, or
never was.
(another universal feeling)
Do you wanna slap me? No, go ahead, I want you
to.
(damn funny)
>
> In other words, everything is familiar to
me....everything is similar.
Not
similar to, just similar.
(he is way ahead of the postmodernists right
here)
All i can say is thank god everything in this
world is connected in this
way, or i'd have nothing to live for. A "connections explorer",
discovering neural pathways no man woman or
dog has ever before sent
synapses across. micro/macro-scopic vision simultaneously.
(this provides a great clue in to
"how" to read burroughs)
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:00:46 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
sorry about all
that extraneous information, but i think Western lands and
Dead roads are
easier to read than Naked lunch. Which
is not to say they are
easily read. anyhoo, happy reading seeya bye
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:59:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: No Subject hah
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> dear, racey
> What do you
mean,"he"?????
> I wrote
this!!!
>
sorry about that
- from the style of the excerpt i mistook you for
burroughs. i hope you aren't offended.
david
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:03:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: News Update
wow i'm so glad
there are flashes of brilliance on this list after all...i
was beggining to
think it was all trash and mudslinging.
thanks.......maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:06:57 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
>>
>> Diane,
>> I enjoy Allen Ginsberg more than oxygen, but
that's a pretty hefty
>> claim. I
would enjoy a reason if you please.
>
>
>I was going
to say Allen Ginsberg was the greatest American poet of the
>twentieth
century but after I wrote "he was by far the greatest poet of
>the twentieth
century," I realized that I do indeed believe that to be
>the
case. Here's a go at the why. Allen broke barriers of language and
>of the
mind. He was the only contemporary
visionary poet and I think,
>the first
since Walt Whitman. Allen had the
visionary inspiration of
>Blake but he
was able to connect his vision to an America we all know.
>He was true
to poetic inspiration, and that was an inspiration that could
>come from the
streets, bars, jails, and madhouses, and at the same time
>go beyond
them. He was able to face the darkness
of his own mind, the
>darkness of
America, but write poems that were positive.
He was able to
>adapt to a
changing society and never lose sight of his vision; he was
>able over
many generations to create a body of work that was still
>timely. He was able to live on the edge but never
fall off the edge.
>Through his
poetry he gave other poets permission to be themselves. He
>literally
saved people's lives because he allowed them the space within
>his words to
see that their thoughts were OK and that words were only
>just
that...words. Self-involvement in poetry
can go beyond the self,
>indulging in
humanness can open the mind to a space beyond humaness. I
>think Howl
was was his most important work and it speaks to me as much
>today as it
did when I read it for the first time twenty years ago,
>From Howl
>"and who
therefore ran through the icy streets obsessed with a sudden
>flash of the
use of the elipse the catalog the meter & the vibrating
>plane the
truth of poetry,
>who dreamt
and made incarnate gaps in Time and Space through images
>juxtaposed,
and trapped the archangel of the soul between two visual
>images...to
recreate the syntax and measure of poor human prose, and
>stand before
you speechless and intelligent and shaking with shame,
>rejected yet
confessing out the soul to the rhythm of thought in his
>naked and
endless head..."(from Howl).
>Quickly,
that's my stab at why. What do you
think?
>
I think you've
thought about this for a long time and feel very strongly
about it and you
speak your point very articulately. I, on the other
hand, cannot
grasp the whole of any poet's work and give an acurate
assesement as
compared to others. I find the process dizzying and
headache
inducing. Have a day, make it nice.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:14:05 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: Histoplasmosis
>>
>> >A
beat is ill. Bob Dylan is reported to
have suffered a heart attack.
>> >The
Dylan list says it is an infection in the lining of the heart which
>> >can
be fatal.
>>
>> The
infection in the lining is the same thing my father has, he went to
>> the
hospital and they thought it was cancer but they found out it was
>>
Histoplasmosis. Now he has to go the hospital every two years to get it
>> checked,
to make sure it hasn't grown. Just a note.
>>
>> west
>>
>> I belong
to the blank generation
>> and I
can take or leave it each time
>> -Richard
Hell
>
>Can your Dad
still tour?
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
yeah, he opens
for Lawrence Welk.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:12:18 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Histoplasmosis
In-Reply-To: <9705292240.AA28050@btc1>
hey west: richard
hell &the voidoids & (tv and )televsion, verlaine and hell?
what oh?
mc
>
>I belong to
the blank generation
>and I can
take or leave it each time
>-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:19:04 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re:
Histoplasmosis
what? It's
Richard Hell & the Voidoids punk anthem Blank Generation. Hope
I answered your
question(?)
>hey west:
richard hell &the voidoids & (tv and )televsion, verlaine and hell?
>what oh?
>mc
>>
>>I belong
to the blank generation
>>and I can
take or leave it each time
>>-Richard
Hell
>
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:27:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat History
Just tossing out
a question for discussion that seems to me is always at the
root of the
"who is beat" issue, whis IS the most enduring topic for
discussion on
this list notwithstanding the Kerouac estate issue.
Is beat a style,
not confined to a specific time, place or set of people?
OR is beat
something that is now and forever the label for the work of Jack
Kerouac, Allen
Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Gregory Corso and the rest?
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:33:20 -0400
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From: MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Jack and Jazz
Gerry,
Thanks for the
response - wow, that's really interesting. Do you know who the
musicians he played with were on
those sessions?
(Is Jack's singing voice as good as his reading voice?)
It's too bad this
isn't out there in public view somehow...
Mark Noferi
May 28, 1997
Mark Noferi
writes:
"I think Kerouac did meet many of
the musicians through a friend in
the business, an
agent, or record company man-- Gerry? or anyone?"
Dear Mark,
Yes, it was both an agent and a record
company man--Jerry Newman. I
think the name of
his record company was Esoteric, but I could be wrong
(told you all,
brain going in old age). Newman recorded
jack singing "Come
Rain or Come
Shine" and other Sinatra favorites--improvising his own
lyrics!--with a
real jazz backup. I have one hour of
this stuff, which isnow
among the tapes under seal at U Mass,
Lowell. Supposedly Newman's widow
has about 20 more
hours of such recordings--think about this, Rykodisc!--but
she's
disappeared. Anybody heard of her
whereabouts?
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:10:02 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
In a message
dated 97-05-29 19:58:58 EDT, you write:
<< He
>literally saved people's lives because he
allowed them the space within
>his words to see that their thoughts were
OK and that words were only
>just that...words. >>
JUST WORDS!!!!!!!
words are not just words. they have a
crazy power over us
that we do not
yet fully comprehend. they are sound and
form transformed
from their
chaotic origins into meaningful order.
Understanding the
mechanism whereby
we produce language is the key to human thought and soul.
How does a sound/image produce such
far-reaching paths of thought in us? Of
course, not all
thought is in language, but do you realize how much words
affect us? Nothing exists until we give it a name, says
so right there in
the Holy
Book. The thing is not to dismiss words
like yesterday's trash but
to recycle them
into something new and use them for your own purposes (evil
laugh)
cheers, maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:26:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-05-29 19:58:58 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< He
> >literally saved people's lives because he
allowed them the space within
> >his words to see that their thoughts were
OK and that words were only
> >just that...words. >>
>
> JUST
WORDS!!!!!!! words are not just words.
they have a crazy power over us
> that we do
not yet fully comprehend. they are sound
and form transformed
> from their
chaotic origins into meaningful order.
Understanding the
> mechanism
whereby we produce language is the key to human thought and soul.
> How does a sound/image produce such
far-reaching paths of thought in us? Of
> course, not
all thought is in language, but do you realize how much words
> affect
us? Nothing exists until we give it a
name, says so right there in
> the Holy
Book. The thing is not to dismiss words
like yesterday's trash but
> to recycle
them into something new and use them for your own purposes (evil
> laugh)
> cheers, maya
just words. as opposed to unjust words.
incredibly
powerful tokens of life
but also just
tokens of life
both true
together at the same instant.
evil laughs
...........................
evil sounds
...........................
evil symbols
..........................
would evil exist
if there were no word named evil? if
evil ran rampant
in my closet
would anyone know or care?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:45:23 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat History
>Just tossing
out a question for discussion that seems to me is always at the
>root of the
"who is beat" issue, whis IS the most enduring topic for
>discussion on
this list notwithstanding the Kerouac estate issue.
>
>Is beat a
style, not confined to a specific time, place or set of people?
>
>OR is beat
something that is now and forever the label for the work of Jack
>Kerouac,
Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Gregory Corso and the rest?
>
>Howard Park
Ah, yes, a good
question. I have a problem with the "is beat a style" part
only because of
the word style (took a long time to get ok with hearing the
word god after
catholic school upbringing), otherwise I really do feel it's
more a state of
existence (don't know that's any better) that goes beyond
the time frame
and immediacy of the core group.
Hell, I've
committed my life to poetry and creativity and spiritual
exploring on a
path mostly outside the mainstream. Poverty level existence
by gov't
standards for last 14 years but never feeling (other when no
running car or
ute's way over due) poor. Now, 46, more going on road, more
poetry than ever
and still not worrying about retirement benefits, health
insurance etc.
Old beat cars, no plastic and living for the sudden
enlightenment of
the creative flash or at least a steady state creative
flowing of the
juice. Would never consider calling myself beat, but
certainly
"the style" of existence might be considered that.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:35:54 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
i fuckin hope so
we lost the damn
baseball game
i might get on
the news though
we should have
won
the boys done
real good
i was proud
a kid hit a 3 run
homer in the first fuckin
inning and we
came back but lost three two
they never scored
again
i felt bad
oh well
jerm
----------
: From: andrew
szymczyk <trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject:
: Date: Thursday,
May 29, 1997 3:38 PM
:
: argh,
:
: i forgot to mention this
earlier, but i went to the
: surge festival last weekend in
pittsburgh, pennsylvania,
: and to my enjoyment one of the bands
played a song
: about kerouac. their name eludes me, but...
:
: the only thing that bothers me
was that i felt
: like i was lost in a sea of people
that didn't know whom
: kerouac was. still, my solitary delirium was wonderful.
: i felt like i should claw my way to
the stage and shake
: their hands, but i only stood with an
open mouth--
:
: --drooling.
:
:
: still
drooling,
:
andrew
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:57:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
RACE --- wrote:
>
> Maya Gorton
wrote:
> >
> > In a
message dated 97-05-29 19:58:58 EDT, you write:
> >
> >
<< He
> > >literally saved people's lives because he
allowed them the space within
> > >his words to see that their thoughts were
OK and that words were only
> > >just that...words. >>
> >
> > JUST
WORDS!!!!!!! words are not just words.
they have a crazy power over us
> > that we
do not yet fully comprehend. they are
sound and form transformed
> > from
their chaotic origins into meaningful order.
Understanding the
> >
mechanism whereby we produce language is the key to human thought and soul.
> > How does a sound/image produce such
far-reaching paths of thought in us? Of
> > course,
not all thought is in language, but do you realize how much words
> > affect
us? Nothing exists until we give it a
name, says so right there in
> > the
Holy Book. The thing is not to dismiss
words like yesterday's trash but
> > to
recycle them into something new and use them for your own purposes (evil
> > laugh)
> > cheers,
maya
>
> just
words. as opposed to unjust words.
acronomyal
nightmares hit again
JUST
juanita unties
substitute teacher.
> incredibly
powerful tokens of life
> but also
just tokens of life
> both true
together at the same instant.
instant oatmeal
in my
microwave i hear
alien
preachers of
redemption outside
my mesophere
and i dream of
astral
hallucinations to
reach the
preacher's poetic
promises
of salvation and
the
project splices
pornographic
g-spots in rat
poison advertisements
with the
preacher's psalmistry
and the two
thoughts
become one word
LIVE but
dsylexia forces
transpositions of
alien thought beams
and EVIL is born
in my cortex
in kansas
by a river named
Smoky
to kiss
the crossroads
and goalposts
of failure and
videotape the
whole
massacre
is my only real
ambition.
>
> evil laughs
...........................
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
keep in touch
david,
your friend Rage
-
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:48:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: talk dirty to me
<mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
ooops
sorry all
i was writing to
a kid inquiring
how our team did
in the district
playoffs. forgive
the language
i was kinda
perturbed
hehe
sorry
jeremy
----------
: From: talk
dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject:
: Date: Thursday,
May 29, 1997 8:35 PM
:
: i fuckin hope
so
: we lost the
damn baseball game
: i might get on
the news though
: we should have
won
: the boys done
real good
: i was proud
: a kid hit a 3
run homer in the first fuckin
: inning and we
came back but lost three two
: they never
scored again
: i felt bad
: oh well
: jerm
:
: ----------
: : From: andrew
szymczyk <trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
: : To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: : Subject:
: : Date:
Thursday, May 29, 1997 3:38 PM
: :
: : argh,
: :
: : i forgot to mention this
earlier, but i went to the
: : surge festival last weekend in
pittsburgh, pennsylvania,
: : and to my enjoyment one of the bands
played a song
: : about kerouac. their name eludes me, but...
: :
: : the only thing that bothers me
was that i felt
: : like i was lost in a sea of people
that didn't know whom
: : kerouac was. still, my solitary delirium was wonderful.
: : i felt like i should claw my way to
the stage and shake
: : their hands, but i only stood with an
open mouth--
: :
: : --drooling.
: :
: :
: : still
drooling,
: : andrew
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:47:39 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
In a message
dated 97-05-29 01:07:13 EDT, Antoine writes:
<< Do you
remember when you first heard
Dylan? ...and what was the most memorable
hearing of him? >>
I first heard
Dylan in San Francisco in 1964 at a small auditorium on Nob
Hill. I don't
remember the name. Larry Ferlinghetti
gave me the tickets. I
hadn't thought of
that until today.
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:03:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: let's put the fun back in
dysfunction!
In a message
dated 97-05-29 09:44:24 EDT, you write:
<< I'll be
in Gloversville, NY 10th and 11th of June, reading with Rhonda
Morton at coffeeshop and also young writers
workshop/reading. How far's
that from CV? >>
We're in between
Oneonta and Gloversville.
Pam
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:23:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: What should I read?
In-Reply-To: <ECS9705291737A@smtp.uea.ac.uk>
On Thu, 29 May
1997, Thomas Harberd wrote:
> Try Ghost of
Chance as well, because it's brilliant.
Yes, I agree....a
great little book.
Has anyone read
the (or a) nascent form of GoC which appeared as a short
story called
"The ghost lemurs of Madagascar" in _New Statesman_ 19 (26
Dec 1986)
pp.50-54. Covers all the stuff about Mission's relations with
the lemurs, and
has some additional very interesting stuff which did not
make it into GoC.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:03 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Bill Gargan
wrote:
>
> Diane, I
couldn't agree more with your eloquent post.
I think you
> should send
a copy to Hilton Kramer.
Thanks. Maybe I'll submit it to the next issue of The
New Criterion.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:38:47 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
At 10:47 PM
5/29/97 -0400, Pam Plymell wrote:
>I first heard
Dylan in San Francisco in 1964 at a small
>auditorium on
Nob Hill. I don't remember the name.
>Larry
Ferlinghetti gave me the tickets. I hadn't thought
>of that until
today.
>Pam Plymell
11/27/64 -
Masonic Memorial Auditorium, SF, CA
Would this be the
one?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:44:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some of the Dharma
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19970529033254.006be388@pop.pipeline.com>
On Wed, 28 May
1997, Paul Maher wrote:
> Did you know Jack has a novel-length
manuscript written in French called
> "The
Night Is My Woman"? It will be published one day when it is fully
> translated.
Why not publish
it in french? Surely there is a publisher in Quebec who
would bring it
out?
> He also considered Vladimir Nabokov the
"world's greatest, living
> writer"
according to his inscribed copy of Lolita.
Yechh....say it
aint so! I'd have to part company with Jack here. Nabokov
is the only
(real) writer I've read who makes me wretch....a snide
cynicism....and
not a trace of lyricism, as far as I could ever tell,
despite all the
blurbs on the back of his books.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:28:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs; was Re: my condolences to
whoever just "signed off"...
In-Reply-To:
<970527110522_55665634@emout07.mail.aol.com>
On Tue, 27 May
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> With
authorship comes responsibility but who in her left mind would want to
> take
credit/get recognition for propelling fellow humans even faster towards
> the
Inevitable by reconciling them with it? Is that the purpose of art, to
> heal? Is it
possible to heal too much and in doing so forget about necessary
> pain?
WSB has said many
times that the purpose of art is to make people aware
of what they know
but dont know that they know.
He also said what
is probably my favorite definition of art and the
activity of
artists:
"...dreams
are a biological necessity. If you deprive someone of the
dream state for
more than 2 months they will die, no matter how much
dreamless sleep
they are allowed. People hunger for dreams, they need
them. Dreams are
not some kind of elite luxury.
What do artists do? They dream for other
people. We dream for those
people who have
no dreams of their own to keep them alive."
(_Painting and
Guns_ p.46)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:35:33 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: This List is Stong
>
>I'm troubled
by people seeming to blame Nicosia for the conflicts...
May 29, 1997
While I still have my ten minutes of
fame as the man who murdered
the Beat-List--or
was it "set on fire"?--let me announce that the poetry
collection of the
late Bob Kaufman's which I edited, CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee
House Press), has
just won the prestigious PEN CENTER USA West 1997 Literary
Award in Poetry.
Mr. Chaput called me the champion
horn-tooter on the Beat-List, so
let me toot a
little--TOOT! TOOT!--but mainly I feel
glad to have played a
small role in
getting Bob's work out again into the public arena, where
students and
young writers and even old crypto writers can learn and be
inspired by it.
Bob Kaufman was one of the great
American poets of the 20th century,
and it was an
honor just to have been allowed to edit that collection. Mr.
Kaufman, take it
away....
Bob bows in heaven, with Jack and Neal
on either side.
(He's "Chuck Berman," the
graceful mulatto hoofer in Kerouac's
DESOLATION
ANGELS.)
Check out his poetry, buy CRANIAL
GUITAR, and I can say that without
advertising,
since I DON'T get royalties. It just
helps out his widow Eileen.
Love to everyone, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:37:42 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: T-shirts
Jeffrey Weinberg
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-05-29 09:48:34 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
Dear Jeff:
>
> Jeremy said it for many of us - keep the t-shirts
coming! And, although I
> have failed to say it before --- thank you
for going through the work
> regarding the shirts.
>
> Dawn
> >>
>
> Dawn: Thanks
for your vote of confidence...
>
> Here's the
latest news for all you Beat-L supporters and well-mannered polite
> members of
Klub Kerouac:
>
> The S. Clay
Wilson artwork for the shirt is completed and the shirts are
> being
silkscreened now out in Oakland, California (giving the shirts a "Bay
> Area/San
Francisco" birthplace)...
>
> S. Clay
Wilson, well-reknowned for his work with R. Crumb and other
> underground
cartoonists on ZAP comix, is a very detailed, meticulous
> arteeeste
but I must say that working with him on this project has been a
> real
pleasure....If you get a chance, check out his other stuff that's
> available...
>
> The Beat-L
T-shirt shows a bearded and beret-headed old poet selling poems
> for spare
change...a college coed/librarian type drops a coin in the tin cup
> as the Beat
poet's heart flutters at her bountiful sight...The coed imagines
> a falling
leaf as "sheer poetry" - a nice take-off on R. Crumb's famous image
> of a
Ginsberg-type guy standing in a tenement NYC neighborhood watching a
> leaf fall
through the air, thinking, "This to me is sheer poetry." (the Crumb
> image was
used on the cover of
> Art
Spiegelman/Bill Griffith's ARCADE a looong time ago and the image was
> recently
> re-issued on
a Crumb signed/numbered silkscreen print) - WHOA - back to the
>
subject,Jeffrey - you're floating away (again!) -
>
Jeffrey--
Thanks so
much. I'm sending my order tonight.
The shirt is
probably a great poison repellent.
To all those who
think that your t-shirt posts are hidden propaganda,
you can show my
backchannels (without fear of copyright lawsuit) urging
you to bring out
something featuring a well known biographer as either
Captn Pissgums or
Rudy the Dyke.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:44:42 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Jazz
At 09:33 AM 5/29/97
-0400, you wrote:
>Gerry,
>Thanks for
the response - wow, that's really interesting. Do you know who the
> musicians he
played with were on
>those
sessions? (Is Jack's singing voice as good as his reading voice?)
>It's too bad
this isn't out there in public view somehow...
>
>Mark Noferi
>
Mark, May 29, 1997
I don't know who the musicians were.
Jack's voice wasn't half bad (Jan's was
a shade better--she sang in
San Francisco
with bass accompaniment at one of her benefits--I'm still
trying to get the
video from the guy who taped it)--but most of the time he
was more than a
little drunk, which spoils it some.
Also, he tries too hard
to consciously
imitate Sinatra.
The reason the stuff was never released
was Kerouac making off-color
and off-the-cuff
and self-incriminating remarks like "this is dedicated to
Sue Somebody with
the lovely, sexy, juicy box" and "roll me another one,
Jerry," etc.
(Jerry Newman, the producer)
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:54:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: bEAT-L T-shirt
Just a quick note
regarding previous T-shirt update...
The S. Clay
Wilson Official Beat-L shirt is white ink printed On a black
shirt (not black
on lt. blue as previously stated)...
Just a small
detail that might matter to someone out there....
Best wishes -
Jeffrey
Beat-L T-shirt
committee
waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:59:07 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: signoff
At 08:21 AM
5/27/97 -0600, you wrote:
>you all
>just thought
i would let you know that i can take no more of the community
>erosion that
has occured.
>i am signing
off.
>please feel
free to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write
>poetry or
just chat, my email is:
>dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca
>and im still
hanging about the boho list as well.
>in the
meantime i will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.
>your
>derek
beaulieu
>
>
hey derek,
just thot that
i'd respond to this. i haven't been
inspired to read or post
on the list for
almost a week now. i will be having a
change of email in
just a few days,
so i thought that i'd just fade away in terms of the list.
can't say that i
feel like it means that much to anyone, i was only on for a
very short period
of time, however, i did enjoy tremendously meeting you and
the others that
helped to make my participation in the ginsberg memorial
what it
became. also enjoyed the way the other
piece was picked up and
transformed. i had hoped to get more of that happening,
but alas, folks
just fall for the
sad bad shit too easy i guess. as if
there isn't enough
shit in our lives
already... it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
tried to distill
a few posts as deletion but it just didn't take, guess it
wasn't enough of
a direct hit ya know? people really do
have to be hit on
the head with it
all i guess... i thot our audience was better than that.
post script a few
days later: thursday
so here i have
been lurking this past week or so, still too stunned by the
anger and
bullshit to want to get on board.
watching folks jump off the
sinking ship of
the beatL. seems most of those
abandoning the ss beat were
of the zen bent,
the so called peacemakers maybe. keep
thinking maybe i'll
get over it, that
maybe i'm just too damned full of my own romantic ideas
about people and
the big bad world in general. seems like
the same old same
old really, for
those that post, still a pissing contest on the list for the
most part. some few creative sparks here and there. the one thing that
seems evident
however is this: death and near death
seems to bring out some
of the only
shreds of kindness up to and including the near fatal beat list
: and now our dear sick dylan who also zapped
my life as well when hearing
hwy 61 (my
personal fave). i do understand there is a dynamic to all, good
and bad,
whatever; but i had hoped to find creative minds with creative
spirits attached
when jumping on board, a true community of not just info,
but fresh ideas
maybe. i was hoping for more than who
knows what or who and
descending
ultimately into the junvenille frat boy type chorus of fuck this
and that and
yous. i guess we are all just
human. i detest intellectual
bullies almost more
than i detest physical bullies; i mean if you are gifted
enough to have
achieved some sort of advanced light, shine man, don't burn;
there won't be
much left to piss on in the afterburn; all you've done is to
help foul the
dying landscape w/your poison. found the
slighty yellowed
front page of the
apr 6 l.a. times w/ginsberg's memorial front page outside
my apt on the
street yesterday, ag holding howl in his hands reading
cockeyed to the
world winking at heaven. it was a
strange and beautiful
omen indeed as my
poet pals and i were off for some adventuring in the old
Caddy. left it sitting on the front seat of the
Caddy so that anyone
looking inside
the car would read it. but dig this
people, education & big
words don't mean
shit when the real deal comes down your street and points
in your
direction. the beats were, if nothing
else to me, absolutely
oppopsed to
academia and establishment bullshit. how many of our boys and
girls actually
attended college and of those that did, how many finished? i
truly wish
everyone well, the best, but go for the light man, that's it...
light. call me a
weenie for being such a sap, but life is short ya know...
you gotta be here
now.
all the best
xxxooo
s.a.
_______________________________________________________________________
Lorraine M.
Perrotta email: lperrotta@huntington.edu
Acquisitions
Librarian phone: 818-405-2184
The Huntington
Library
1151 Oxford Road
San Marino,
CA 91108
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:28:19 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@USC.EDU>
Subject: websites to check out
here are a few
websites to check out.
this first one is
a "live" broadcast of the ginsberg tribute that I was a
part of may 10th
at beyond baroque, I have no idea how long it will be up.
it has both audio
and visual elements. includes myself,
exene cervenkova,
lewis macadams,
ellyn maybe and doug knott
http://www.lalive.com/exene/index.html
this second one
is only up until the 31st of may. it is
the carma bums
website, built at
U of Wash Seattle, moved to USC. I will
be reconstructing
parts as pieces
of a new website of my own with other stuff, newer stuff,
and links. got some good graphics and words plus audio
with radio show and
club blab.
http://www-lib.usc.edu/~perrotta/carmabums/
later
xxxooo
s.a.
_______________________________________________________________________
Lorraine M.
Perrotta email: lperrotta@huntington.edu
Acquisitions
Librarian phone: 818-405-2184
The Huntington
Library
1151 Oxford Road
San Marino,
CA 91108
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:07:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs piece
In-Reply-To: <199705300459.VAA19135@calvin.usc.edu>
I think I have
found a piece by Burroughs that did not get listed in the
most recent
bibliography of WSB's writings, _William S. Burroughs: A
Reference Guide_
ed. Michael B. Goodman & Lemuel B. Coley. NY: Garland,
1990. (If I just
overlooked where it is listed, please let me know!)
"The Parable
of the Silent Heads" in _For Nelson Mandela_ ed. Jacques
Derrida &
Mustapha Tlili. NY: Seaver Books, 1987, pp.115-116.
This a very short
piece, less than 2 pages, but is vintage Burroughs, a
microcosm of the
sort of shifts in scene and time evident esp., e.g., in
_Cities of the
Red Night_.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:39:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: signoff
In-Reply-To: <199705300459.VAA19135@calvin.usc.edu>
On Thu, 29 May
1997, s.a. griffin wrote:
> in your
direction. the beats were, if nothing
else to me, absolutely
> oppopsed to
academia and establishment bullshit. how many of our boys and
> girls
actually attended college and of those that did, how many finished?
>
> Lorraine M.
Perrotta
I'm not sure what
you are talking about here.....
They may have
been opposed to academic "bullshit" (and God knows there is
plenty of that),
but I don't think that means they were necessarily opposed
to academia as
such. Burroughs, Ginsberg, & Snyder all finished college,
the latter 2
eventually becoming university professors. Probably it is
like Burroughs
said in _Western Lands_ (p.125):
"Knowledge
takes many forms and contexts. Cloistered ivy-covered halls,
serious youths in
academic garb....the typical is so often *not* where
it's at,
deliberately avoided like a cliche, that it becomes in time
atypical, and by
the inexorable logic of fashion, is again where it's at."
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:08:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Ginsberg Memorial and other stuff
Well, I just got
back from the Big Apple and have finally gotten email at
home working so
im happy to be logged in after a couple weeks absence. Did
any of you go to
the natalie Merchant/Patti Smith Ginsberg memorial in Ann
Arbor last
weekend? If noone has posted anything
about the concert i'll be
glad to tell
everyone how wonderful it was. Is there
any update on the
t-shirts? So excited about those. went to a comic book store for the first
time in years
today and asked if they had anything by S.Clay Wilson, but
alas, no
luck. oh, i did very well on my
independent study on the Beats.
Id be happy to
share my paper with anyone. It's about
the Beats and America
and Me. My professor wrote on the returned manuscript
(i love bragging...):
"Matt, A
noble and joyous work, Bravo! . . . I just can't make anymore
marks, so let
this suffice: I loved it." Anyway,
that made me happy and
thanks to all of
you who helped me out on that. Tis all
for now.
TGIF,
Not that it matters
really to me cause im out of
school and
sitting on my butt all week.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:42:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
In-Reply-To: <970529201001_1990266439@emout18.mail.aol.com>
On Thu, 29 May
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> JUST
WORDS!!!!!!! words are not just words.
they have a crazy power over us
> that we do
not yet fully comprehend. they are sound
and form transformed
> from their
chaotic origins into meaningful order.
Understanding the
> mechanism
whereby we produce language is the key to human thought and soul.
> How does a sound/image produce such
far-reaching paths of thought in us?
Yes....this is I
think one of the guiding questions of Burroughs' work....
"What is a
writer trying to do?" he asked somewhere....perhaps trying to
answer some of
these questions....
Some of the
people WSB mentions as having read were concerned with these
questions
too.....Alfred Korzybski, Julian Jaynes.....I haven't read
Korzybski yet,
but I did read Jaynes' book _The Origin of Consciousness
in the Breakdown
of the Bicameral Mind_, a fascinating book....his thesis
is that before
the last 2500 years or so, humans were not conscious at
all, and that
everyday activites proceeded unconsciously....whenever a
decision had to
be made, the right-brain would send a signal over to the
left-brain, which
was experienced as hearing a voice telling you what to
do ("the
voice of god"), much like present-day schizophrenics. He also
suggests that
looking at idols helped set off these voices (thus
explaining the
presence of idols at certain points in human history)--it
is apparently the
case that looking at human figures, esp. if they have
large eyes, can
set off auditory hallucinations.
Nowadays no one
hears voices from statues--but look what we do instead!
We look at small
black spots on a piece of paper or on a computer
monitor, and they
cause us to hear words in our heads! Is this not just
as incredible and
amazing? Books--our own strange little paper idols.
Perhaps someday
people will no longer hear the words, or see any meaning,
in these little
black marks, and just as today we think it silly to try
to get speech
from a statue, people will regard the activity of reading
as some sort of
idiotic superstition, while future archeologists will
wonder what
function all these millions of bricks of paper could possibly
have served.....
Or here's another
possibility:
"The
language faculty is part of the overall architecture of the
mind/brain,
interacting with its other components....The language faculty
*interfaces* with
other components of the mind/brain. The interface
properties,
imposed by systems among which language is embedded, set
contraints on
what this faculty must be if it is to function....The
articulatory and
perceptual systems, for example, require that
expressions of
the language have a linear order at the interface;
sensorimotor
systems that operated in parallel would allow richer modes
of expression of
higher dimensionality." (N. Chomsky)
Could cut-ups be
one way of getting around this limitation and operating in
parallel or at
least emulating such operation? i.e., of allowing
you to think
several thoughts at once, and to see their connections? I
sometimes get
this feeling while reading certain cut-ups of WSB.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
"A written
word is the choicest of relics. It is something at once more
intimate with us
and more universal than any other work of art. It is the
work of art
nearest to life itself. It may be translated into every
language, and not
only be read but actually breathed from all human lips;
--not be
represented on canvas or in marble only, but be carved out of
the breath of
life itself." Thoreau, _Walden_
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:53:08 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: CRANIAL GUITAR
Hello Gerald,
You did a fine
job of editing CRANIAL GUITAR. It was a real joy
to see a heavy
dose of Bob Kaufman's work back in print. Coffee House
Press is one of
the few small publishers in the TC area that I care
about=97they
continue to publish what they want and don't bow down to
the whims of the
squares.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:05:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Music...
In-Reply-To: <009B4BBE.DD712180.3@kenyon.edu>
On Sat, 24 May
1997, MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:
> I agree with
mc, the sound of Jack's voice has given me a much greater sense
of
> his rhythm
when I read his books. Not all writers have Jack's great ability or
> wonderful
voice for reading but we are lucky to have tapes of Jack. I highly
> recomend to
all beginning readers of Kerouac to grab a tape of Jack reading
> from his own
work, nothing like it.
I've always been
sorta puzzled by this. I've had several friends I showed
some Burroughs
stuff to, and they were completely indifferent to
it--until I
played a WSB recording to them, when they were suddenly
ROTFL. But it
seems to me, if it's funny on the recording, it's funny on
the page
too....can't you hear the words in your head when you read?
One of the most
significant things about Kerouac's writing, IMHO, is its
rhythm and tempo,
which often is so forceful that you can just hear it
singing right
from the page. I was actually disappointed the first time I
heard the
recordings....now, I love to listen to them, but I don't think
they really add
anything to what's already there on paper and which can
be recreated in
your own head.
In fact, having
to take a breath sometimes interrupts a rhythm that may be
distinctive to
writing....esp. long passages written without punctuation
sometimes seem
like they ought to form one uninterrupted phrase, which it
is not possible
to talk through in one breath. This perhaps makes a sort
of disruption
between writing and speaking, but perhaps not between the
writing and
music--there is such a thing, when playing a horn, as
circular
breathing, i.e., breathing in thru the nose while blowing out
thru the mouth,
and by means of which you can hold a note indefinitely.
But I never heard
of circular talking.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:16:41 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Dylan memories
Hello Pam,
Give Charles my
best when he gets home. I wonder if he stopped over
in Milwaukee, to
see Catfish. Anyway, on Dylan, it's wild-all the years
I spent playing
Delta blues and in some of the same clubs we never
crossed paths. In
'68, Leo Kottke was playing the Scholar Coffee House
-the same place
Dylan used to play on the local scene. I was hanging
with Dave Ray and
others at the Triangle Bar, the Scholar, etc. Dave
was older than me
and knew Dylan real well. I managed to meet all of
my heroes like
Muddy Waters, Bukka White, etc. but never met or heard
Dylan play
live-and that's a damn shame on my part. Now I wished that
I could see him.
He showed up for a Ray & Glover recording session
a few years ago
right in my neighborhood. I was invited to attend and
didn't show. I
won't let that happen again if the opportunity knocks
just-one-more-time.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:20:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Influences on the Beats
In-Reply-To: <s3857398.072@DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV>
On Fri, 23 May
1997, MARK NOFERI wrote:
> About Beat
precursors-
> The
Kerouac-Wolfe connection, for one, is quite distinct, especially if you
look
> at Jack's
early work. It's fun to sit down and read Wolfe's first novel, Look
> Homeward, Angel,
> and
Kerouac's first, Town and the City, and see just how much Kerouac looked
up
> to Wolfe
> in those
days - Kerouac's flowery prose about Lowell echoes Wolfe's about
> Asheville
I read _Look
Homeward, Angel_ recently and am now in the middle of the
massive _Of Time
and the River_, and Kerouac's similarity to Wolfe was
immediately
apparent to me, although I can't quite put a finger on what
exactly--the
dense, luminous descriptions of things? Although Wolfe is
much more
repetetive than Kerouac.
And oh, the long
litany to Coming Home in October that opens part 3 of
Wolfe's Time
& River is absolutely amazing....I can see how Kerouac
picked that
up.....
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:38:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Music...
In-Reply-To:
<9704238644.AA864419931@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>
On Fri, 23 May
1997, Wes Lundburg wrote:
> About six
months ago, I reread _On The Road_ with Parker playing in the
> background
as I read, and some portions of the novel were so much more
powerful
> as a result.
Two summers ago I
read _Visions of Cody_ with (mostly) Parker and Billie
Holliday on,
sipping a beer, and turned off the air conditioning and sat
outside of the
open door in the heat and humidity of the 2am southern night.
This might seem
silly at times, but it did seem to create an atmosphere
that enhanced the
reading....
A long time ago I
also used to sit by a fire on a winter night, reading
Dostoyevsky while
sipping Stolichnaya and Rachmaninov playing on the stereo.
I bet we could
come up with other good author/music pairings. How bout
reading Ayn Rand
while listening to the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack? :)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:52:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stealing
In-Reply-To:
<199705231945.MAA08517@freya.van.hookup.net>
On Fri, 23 May
1997, James William Marshall wrote:
> "Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the
simplest kind of life in a little hut
> at the foot
of a mountain. One evening a thief
visited the hut only to
> discover
there was nothing in it to steal.
> Ryokan returned and caught him. 'You may have come a long way to visit
> me,' he told
the prowler, 'and you should not return empty-handed. Please
> take my
clothes as a gift.'
> The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away.
> Ryokan sat naked, watching the moon. 'Poor fellow,' he mused, 'I wish
> I could give
him this beautiful moon.'
>
> Stolen from
_Zen Flesh, Zen Bones: A Collection of
Zen and Pre-Zen
>
Writings_. Stolen by Paul Reps. Callously distributed by Anchor Books.
>
Thoughtlessly published by Doubleday, 1989.
"The
Literalists--or 'Lits' as they came to be called--actually put the
words of Christ
into disastrous practice. Now Christ says if some son of
a bitch takes
half your clothes, give him the other half. Accordingly,
Lits stalk the
streets looking for muggers and strip themselves mother
naked at the
sight of one. Many unfortunate muggers were crushed under
scrimmage pileups
of half-naked Lits.....No doubt about it, brothers and
sisters, love is
the answer. Let the love squirt out of you like a fire
hose of
molasses....the Divine Lubricant, makes KY and lanolin feel like
sandpaper...."
(WSB, _Ghost of Chance_)
Maybe Burroughs
is a Buddhist after all..........;)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:27:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 29
May 1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
>
> > JUST
WORDS!!!!!!! words are not just words.
they have a crazy power over us
> > that we
do not yet fully comprehend. they are
sound and form transformed
> > from
their chaotic origins into meaningful order.
Understanding the
> >
mechanism whereby we produce language is the key to human thought and soul.
> > How does a sound/image produce such
far-reaching paths of thought in us?
>
> Yes....this
is I think one of the guiding questions of Burroughs' work....
> "What
is a writer trying to do?" he asked somewhere....perhaps trying to
> answer some
of these questions....
>
> Some of the
people WSB mentions as having read were concerned with these
> questions
too.....Alfred Korzybski, Julian Jaynes.....I haven't read
> Korzybski
yet, but I did read Jaynes' book _The Origin of Consciousness
> in the
Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind_, a fascinating book..
years since i'd
read these - thanks for the reminders
..his thesis
> is that
before the last 2500 years or so, humans were not conscious at
> all, and
that everyday activites proceeded unconsciously..
i was at a mall
last week and observing the various people hear and
there and
between, it appeared that they were functioning nearly
unconsciously. habit and routine having become the new
voices.
..whenever a
> decision had
to be made, the right-brain would send a signal over to the
> left-brain,
which was experienced as hearing a voice telling you what to
> do
("the voice of god"), much like present-day schizophrenics. He also
> suggests
that looking at idols helped set off these voices (thus
> explaining
the presence of idols at certain points in human history)--it
> is
apparently the case that looking at human figures, esp. if they have
> large eyes,
can set off auditory hallucinations.
>
> Nowadays no
one hears voices from statues--but look what we do instead!
Some of us
sometimes do hear voices and have visions from statues
still. Only now such a condition is treated with
chemicals like
Halperidol,
Thoradazine and the same ilk. Very rough
medicines. But a
note of warning -
after be given a shot of Halperidol, a hit of LSD does
not necessarily
work as an effective chemical counter-agent.
:)
> We look at
small black spots on a piece of paper or on a computer
> monitor, and
they cause us to hear words in our heads! Is this not just
> as
incredible and amazing? Books--our own strange little paper idols.
> Perhaps
someday people will no longer hear the words, or see any meaning,
> in these
little black marks, and just as today we think it silly to try
> to get
speech from a statue, people will regard the activity of reading
> as some sort
of idiotic superstition, while future archeologists will
> wonder what
function all these millions of bricks of paper could possibly
> have
served.....
>
> Or here's
another possibility:
> "The
language faculty is part of the overall architecture of the
> mind/brain,
interacting with its other components....The language faculty
> *interfaces*
with other components of the mind/brain. The interface
> properties,
imposed by systems among which language is embedded, set
> contraints
on what this faculty must be if it is to function....The
> articulatory
and perceptual systems, for example, require that
> expressions
of the language have a linear order at the interface;
> sensorimotor
systems that operated in parallel would allow richer modes
> of
expression of higher dimensionality." (N. Chomsky)
>
> Could
cut-ups be one way of getting around this limitation and operating in
> parallel or
at least emulating such operation?
definitely. this is the cutting through the pre-recorded
universe
notion.
i.e., of allowing
> you to think
several thoughts at once, and to see their connections? I
> sometimes
get this feeling while reading certain cut-ups of WSB.
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
>
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
>
> "A
written word is the choicest of relics. It is something at once more
> intimate
with us and more universal than any other work of art. It is the
> work of art
nearest to life itself. It may be translated into every
> language,
and not only be read but actually breathed from all human lips;
> --not be
represented on canvas or in marble only, but be carved out of
> the breath
of life itself." Thoreau, _Walden_
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 05:37:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Stealing
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
>
> On Fri, 23
May 1997, James William Marshall wrote:
>
> > "Ryokan, a Zen master, lived the
simplest kind of life in a little hut
> > at the
foot of a mountain. One evening a thief
visited the hut only to
> >
discover there was nothing in it to steal.
> > Ryokan returned and caught him. 'You may have come a long way to visit
> > me,' he
told the prowler, 'and you should not return empty-handed. Please
> > take my
clothes as a gift.'
> > The thief was bewildered. He took the clothes and slunk away.
> > Ryokan sat naked, watching the moon. 'Poor fellow,' he mused, 'I wish
> > I could
give him this beautiful moon.'
> >
> > Stolen
from _Zen Flesh, Zen Bones: A Collection
of Zen and Pre-Zen
> >
Writings_. Stolen by Paul Reps. Callously distributed by Anchor Books.
> >
Thoughtlessly published by Doubleday, 1989.
>
> "The
Literalists--or 'Lits' as they came to be called--actually put the
> words of
Christ into disastrous practice. Now Christ says if some son of
> a bitch
takes half your clothes, give him the other half. Accordingly,
> Lits stalk
the streets looking for muggers and strip themselves mother
> naked at the
sight of one. Many unfortunate muggers were crushed under
> scrimmage
pileups of half-naked Lits.....No doubt about it, brothers and
> sisters,
love is the answer. Let the love squirt out of you like a fire
> hose of
molasses....the Divine Lubricant, makes KY and lanolin feel like
>
sandpaper...." (WSB, _Ghost of Chance_)
>
> Maybe
Burroughs is a Buddhist after all..........;)
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
>
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
His notion of
"DO EZ" is a Western explanation of many Zen methods.
Where was that
"Exterminator"? Used to read
"DO EZ" nearly every day.
Unfortunately
sent all my burroughs to Evergreen CO for Hannukah and now
i just don't do
anything anymore.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:37:03 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Organization:
Brooklyn College Library
Subject: Current subscribers
As of this moment
(9:36am EDT, May 30) there are 248 subscribers to
beat-l.
fred
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:40:23 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Ferlinghetti,
dog---probably!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:47:42 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: All Things
All things
considered, I think the Beat-l list is far more interesting
now than it has
been at any time during the last two years or so during
which I've been a
subscriber.
John Hasbrouck,
LurkMaster
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:06:34 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
In a message
dated 97-05-30 07:06:12 EDT, you write:
<<
Or here's another possibility:
"The language faculty is part of the
overall architecture of the
mind/brain, interacting with its other
components....The language faculty
*interfaces* with other components of the
mind/brain. The interface
properties, imposed by systems among which
language is embedded, set
contraints on what this faculty must be if it
is to function....The
articulatory and perceptual systems, for
example, require that
expressions of the language have a linear
order at the interface;
sensorimotor systems that operated in parallel
would allow richer modes
of expression of higher dimensionality."
(N. Chomsky)
Could cut-ups be one way of getting around
this limitation and operating in
parallel or at least emulating such operation?
i.e., of allowing
you to think several thoughts at once, and to
see their connections? I
sometimes get this feeling while reading
certain cut-ups of WSB.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
******* >>
WOW i'm
impressed. I'd like you to know i saved
that mail. Thanks for the
insight!! Indeed,
i think WSB's cut ups do that very well.
By sticking
together 2
apparently unrelated words, they force your mind to somersault
because it
automatically tries to make sense of them and find the connection.
Have you read Deleuze and Guattari, namely
"A thousand plateaus:Capitalism
and
schizophrenia"? You'd like it from the sound of it.
I also think that
language is related to other things besides cognitive
faculties, such
as emotions, and all the senses. In a
good book, you can
smell the words.
you can cry over poetry, even if it's "happy". You can hear
pain and feel
colors and see sounds. look foward to hearin more from
you.....................maya
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:14:07 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Stealing
In a message
dated 97-05-30 07:52:41 EDT, you write:
<<
"The Literalists--or 'Lits' as they came
to be called--actually put the
words of Christ into disastrous practice. Now
Christ says if some son of
a bitch takes half your clothes, give him the
other half. Accordingly,
Lits stalk the streets looking for muggers and
strip themselves mother
naked at the sight of one. Many unfortunate
muggers were crushed under
scrimmage pileups of half-naked Lits.....No
doubt about it, brothers and
sisters, love is the answer. Let the love
squirt out of you like a fire
hose of molasses....the Divine Lubricant,
makes KY and lanolin feel like
sandpaper...." (WSB, _Ghost of Chance_)
Maybe Burroughs is a Buddhist after
all..........;)
>>
i definitely
think he was influenced by buddhism through his friends....in
his work, he does
make positive references to it's virtues......the only one
that comes to
mind: he mentions vipassana in Western Lands as a tool for
strength and
insight. I was surprised but then i
realized how well cynicism
and buddhism
complement each other in my own experience.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:15:33 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Subject hah
In a message
dated 97-05-30 08:56:41 EDT, you write:
<<
sorry about that - from the style of the
excerpt i mistook you for
burroughs.
i hope you aren't offended.
david
>>
I GUESS I CAN
LIVE WITH THAT!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the compliment, sweetheart!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:19:02 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
In a message
dated 97-05-30 09:13:22 EDT, you write:
<<
A long time ago I also used to sit by a fire
on a winter night, reading
Dostoyevsky while sipping Stolichnaya and
Rachmaninov playing on the stereo.
I bet we could come up with other good
author/music pairings. How bout
reading Ayn Rand while listening to the
Saturday Night Fever soundtrack? :)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu >>
How 'bout: read
Burroughs and listen Throbbing Gristle?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:27:37 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: My guess for Maya
It was a
mummified fetus from an ectopic pregnancy that his mother
experienced. Her
gynecologist had correctly diagnosed and surgically removed
it. It was
sitting in the case next to his mother's gall stone....
Here's hoping - Antoine
I enjoyed the anecdote. Have several similar ones from the
psychiatric
ward but
nevermind.
Okay, here's my guess about what the guy
was examining: a piece a shit?
No. A kidney stone. No.
Uh, a big piece a ham. No, too
obvious. It had
to be that
notorious, potentially forged signature.
James M.
two box elder
bugs fucking.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
what a great
response!! I'm so glad I could inspire such beautiful images. I
think I have
enough respect to be able to hand out first prize to all three
of you. Congratulations on your brand new
toaster! OK, here's the real
answer you've all
been waiting for: THE BOX was EMPTY.......
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:25:21 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: My guess for Maya
Of coures
empty! ...thus the intense
concentration needed!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:42:24 -0400
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs; was Re: my condolences to
whoever just "signed
off"...
In a message
dated 97-05-30 09:54:41 EDT, you write:
<<
WSB has said many times that the purpose of
art is to make people aware
of what they know but dont know that they
know.
He also said what is probably my favorite
definition of art and the
activity of artists:
"...dreams are a biological necessity. If
you deprive someone of the
dream state for more than 2 months they will
die, no matter how much
dreamless sleep they are allowed. People
hunger for dreams, they need
them. Dreams are not some kind of elite
luxury.
What do artists do? They dream for other
people. We dream for those
people who have no dreams of their own to keep
them alive."
(_Painting and Guns_ p.46)
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
>>
YESYES YES! those
are 2 fine burroughs quotes. But what if
you know things
other people
don't know? What if you are very much aware of them and you do
communicate these
'dreams' to others and help them? where the hell does that
leave you? I have enough dreams for several more
lifetimes, but what a
horrible
burden. Heavy dreams, dangerous dreams
that eat away at reality,
skew your
perspective, make it hard to focus. I'll
never write them all
down, paint them
all out. They trap me and i have no
choice but to write and
paint and howl my
way out. I would love to unload some of
them on others,
especially if it
keeps them alive, but true release will only come at the
End.
took off my
opened the door coat bathroom ran the to before i could close it
I----was panting
ripped it bag fast open as i cooked could spoon black
there's death in
safety, safety in death, said she with a look of horrified
comprehension as
it hit home and she gave one last flicker like a tv set that
just turned off.
The smell of
charcoal and warm molasses. the bitter
taste of blood mixed
with rubbing
alcohol, licked off my arm. Regrets of a
typewriter and
Brooklyn
days. Chaos is not to be fucked with,
I'm afraid. for what dreams
may come? I
dreamed something was chasing me, no--I was chasing it. No.
Something was
chasing me. No.
You can never go
back. They say it and it's true. The hard way. Can you live
with that? Did
you know no one can see the same as you? Was that part of the
bargain? I don't
think so. I've been had. Eternal
longing for the present
to remain so.
Nostalgia for what is, or never was. Do
you wanna slap me? No,
go ahead, I want
you to.
In other words,
everything is familiar to me....everything is similar. Not
similar to, just
similar. All i can say is thank god
everything in this
world is
connected in this way, or i'd have nothing to live for. A
"connections
explorer", discovering neural pathways no man woman or dog has
ever before sent
synapses across. micro/macro-scopic
vision simultaneously.
Now i'm fighting for the most insane thing i
could think of, which is to
think.
Please, god,
don't leave me now.
>I think wsb
explored further and deeper the limits of what can be done with
>words....he
manipulated them and juxtaposed them to create new associative
>pathways, not
just poetry but Original Thought.
Although I like the poetry
>of the other
beats, it's their prose i find less-than-satisfying. Somehow
it
>doesn't make
my synapses snap, crackle and pop like Burroughs' does.
> Although I
enjoy the "moods" of Kerouac and Ginsberg, (sad, nostalgic,
>despairing,
ironic, gleeful, etc.) I prefer the biting sarcasm and
>intersecting
plateaus of humor, disgust, bitterness, futility and hope in
>Burroughs'
work. Not to mention the intellectual
stimulation i get from
>reading him,
which ultimately, inevitably, climaxes into a physical
expulsion
>of
words/paintings/music by me......
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:39:14 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Influences on the Beats
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
> On Fri, 23
May 1997, MARK NOFERI wrote:
>
> > About
Beat precursors-
> > The
Kerouac-Wolfe connection, for one, is quite distinct, especially
> if you
> look
> > at
Jack's early work. It's fun to sit down and read Wolfe's first
> novel, Look
> > Homeward, Angel,
> > and
Kerouac's first, Town and the City, and see just how much
> Kerouac
looked
> up
> > to Wolfe
> > in
those days - Kerouac's flowery prose about Lowell echoes Wolfe's
> about
> > Asheville
>
> I read _Look
Homeward, Angel_ recently and am now in the middle of the
>
> massive _Of
Time and the River_, and Kerouac's similarity to Wolfe was
>
> immediately
apparent to me, although I can't quite put a finger on
> what
> exactly--the
dense, luminous descriptions of things? Although Wolfe is
>
> much more
repetetive than Kerouac.
>
> And oh, the
long litany to Coming Home in October that opens part 3 of
>
> Wolfe's Time
& River is absolutely amazing....I can see how Kerouac
> picked that
up.....
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
>
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
Of Time and The River is long and bogs down
some, but some of the
passages in that
book are the best of 20th Century, 19th Century, 18th
Century
literature. Overwhelming in the
richness, the beauty, the
magnificence, and
the scale of the writing.
Beautiful.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:52:54 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: My guess for Maya
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
Congratulations on your brand new toaster!
A toaster. i can't wait.
what's the next
quiz??????
can I win a maid
next time?
gotta go
Ed McMahon is
knocking on my bathroom window.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:05:03 -0400
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Cranial Guitar keeps Kaufman in tune....
In a message
dated 97-05-30 09:58:11 EDT, Gerry Nicosia wrote:
<< let me
announce that the poetry
collection of the late Bob Kaufman's which I
edited, CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee
House Press), has just won the prestigious PEN
CENTER USA West 1997 Literary
Award in Poetry. >>
In honor of this
acheivement by argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
Nicosia,
let me offer to
Beat-L members a copy of Cranial Guitar at a special discount
price of $10.95
(cover price $12.95) plus free shipping in USA (foreign
folks: please add
$2.00 for shipping via surface) - Offer good while supply
lasts. Email me
to order or for more information .....
Jeffrey
Water Row Books
waterrw@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:04:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re:
Burroughs; was Re: my condolences to whoever just "signed
off"...
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-05-30 09:54:41 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> WSB has said many times that the purpose of
art is to make people aware
> of what they know but dont know that they
know.
>
> He also said what is probably my favorite
definition of art and the
> activity of artists:
> "...dreams are a biological necessity.
If you deprive someone of the
> dream state for more than 2 months they will
die, no matter how much
> dreamless sleep they are allowed. People
hunger for dreams, they need
> them. Dreams are not some kind of elite
luxury.
> What do artists do? They dream for other
people. We dream for those
> people who have no dreams of their own to
keep them alive."
> (_Painting and Guns_ p.46)
i've found of
late (three years or so) that it is far easier to dream
dreams for others
than for myself. i can sit in the booth
at the
filling station
and pretend to read (and sometimes actually read) and
dream dreams for
just about anyone who walks in the place.
spinning
such webs have
becomes easy. but who dreams dreams for
the
dream-spinners? i find almost no memory of dreams. daydreams are no
longer as vivid for
myself as the ones i dream up for others and it is
so often as
though i'm outside the picture window joking with the camera
crew. but when the shoot is over and everyone else
goes home - i'm
still there at
the picture window and the set is torn down and my dream
is (like the man
at the diner with the box) mostly empty vision.
i'm not certain
if that makes sense. i wonder about the
biological data
from which the
above quotation draws. and i wonder if
i'm dead. that
could be it
fairly easily i suppose.
that said, i will
begin to wind my little morning down into the
emptiness of
another siesta voyage into several hours daily of compleat
non-existence.
i have NO CLUE
whether that made ANY sense. one of
those seizures where
the fingers just
went nuts and don't know what they typed.
i'll just
clean the bottom
of this page out and send it without reading it and
someone else can
dream up a dream for me that makes sense of the
finger-vomit.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:52:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Revival, praise the Lord and pass the
meter
Well, I feel
somewhat revitalitzed here. I did not
realize how I had
virtually stopped
trying to write til I signed onto the beat list, so I
am appreciative
of the lists existance. Here are a
couple more poems
for the delete
key or the scroll bar as you see fit.
Fever
As I feel
Your back fulshes
hot.
And momentarily,
your face
Is fever against
me.
Intense, this
river
Within and
joining
Water pours
Over rocks
>From our
spring.
Bentz Kirby
1987
Columbia, SC
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:56:38 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Queen Vashti (Esther I)
Queen Vashti
(Esther I)
She waltzes into
the room
Decoding my
genetic code
Telling strange
and tragic tales
Of Vashti and her
heroines.
Kindly set my
table!
As I recall,
The Son of
Mercury said to me.
"It is a
sunlight day.
All refuge has
been withdrawn.
Your own blood
shall whet the stone
To grind your
bones.
Until you refuse
To deny
Your heartbeat
Anymore.
Bentz Kirby
Charleston SC
1975
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:59:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Desire
Desire
Collective sigh
Yields no relief.
Tidal pull and
pressure
Crest leaping,
Then
c
r
a
s
h
i
n
g.
Possibilites
forgotten
Are suggested
And are within
our grasp
I feel the lunar
ebb.
Bentz Kirby
Columbia SC
1987
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:13:24 +0000
Reply-To: annie@rt66.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: annie shank <annie@RT66.COM>
Organization: you
can't be serious
Subject: Just for starters: 1
Driveby
Rigid on his back
in
cool grass,
catfish mothe
gaping
with struggling
breath,
flare of orange
pain
far away in his
body,
the distant lunar
landscape
a caption to the
scene,
rides through his
fading vision.
The scream of the
ambulance underscores
the verity of his
passing.
A life complete
at fifteen.
Nice to be here,
folks.
annie UNM annie@rt66.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:06:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Untitled
Untitled and
unfinished
The cabooseless
train crawls by the queue of cars.
She walks around
the barrier.
Off white
sweater, black pants, horn rims,
Mid-calf boots
and a look like life had worn her out.
Her flayed red
hair sprawled like pampass grass untrimed.
I could see her
mother's dreams hovering above
Her sad trail,
the fear that all of that tiny spark could evaporate.
Something has
taken her over--
It is racking her
posture.
It is stealing
the light from her eyes.
It is leaving behind
a shell of dreams,
As big as
anyones.
Dreams stillborn
in the grass,
Wrapped in a bag
and dumped in a dumpster.
Dreams trailing
in the wakeof trains
That run over
humans,
Dreams left
driftiing in the ebb and flow
Of this great
city.
Dreams washed to
the bank,
Wrung out,
lifeless, or barely alive.
She walks around
the barrier.
Bentz Kirby
1995
Columbia, SC
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:31:07 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: On the Road 1st edition Facsimile
There is a number
you can cal to order a 1sy edition hardcover facsimile of
On the Road which
falls in line with a series of other hardcover such as
Fitzgerald,
Hemingway, Faulkner,Kesey, etc. The number to obtain this is in
Groton,
Connecticutt. It is 1-800-367-4534. Ask for the 1st Edition Library
and tell them you
would like to buy On the Road. It may be around $35.00. It
isn't the real
thing but is nice to have this novel in a hardcover format
nevertheless.
regards, Paul of TKQ....
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:17:34 +0000
Reply-To: annie@rt66.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: annie shank <annie@RT66.COM>
Organization: you
can't be serious
Subject: Just for starters: 2
The Poet
We sit here,
attentive witness
to your spoken agony.
You watch
enclosed
sardonic
as we mouth our
opinions
our criticism
our insight
on the
composition and expression
of your
naked
soul.
Where do they
come from
these keening
rages
these icy howls
couched in
sarcasm
drenched in
everpresent bourbon
smeared with
lipstick
and semen
and pain
always pain
but pain with wit
so no one knows
how bad
it is.
Janus and Niobe
are your patron
saints.
I would enfold
your soul
in the warmth of
mine
thorns and roses
tequila and
sweets
I would enfold
your soul
in the warmth of
mine
but your razors
cut
and your acid
sears
I would enfold
you sould
in the warmth of
mine.
No warmth would
be enough.
And I hope to
stay a while!
annie UNM annie@rt66.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:10:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Songs
Songs
The hollowness of
the echo,
Years resounding
in the note.
A song,
Strange
aloofness,
Some withdrawel,
Emotional
disenfranchisement.
Allowing the song
to drift from the feeling.
Allowing the song
to become a sad memory.
Allowing the song
to become estranged.
Some sad memory,
Which time has
arranged.
The resul
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:15:43 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: All Things
May 30, 1997
John Hasbrouck
writes:
"All things considered, I think
the Beat-L list is far more
interesting now
than it has been at any time during the last two years or so
...."
John,
You mean I didn't murder the
Beat-List? I'm crushed.
Yours in failure,
Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:22:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: All Things
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
> May 30, 1997
> John
Hasbrouck writes:
> "All things considered, I think
the Beat-L list is far more
> interesting
now than it has been at any time during the last two years
> or so
> ...."
>
> John,
> You mean I didn't murder the
Beat-List? I'm crushed.
> Yours in failure,
> Gerald Nicosia
Oh, beat list,
the rumor of your death are greatly exaggerated.
Oh, beat list,
can you be beat?
Oh, beat list, a
email treat.
Oh, beat list, it
is bigger than us all.
Oh, beat list, it
is better than the mall.
Oh, beat list, it
is unconscious yet alive.
Oh, beat list, it
is there despite our selves.
Oh, beat list, it
is beating in our hearts.
BEAT BEAT BEAT
BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:27:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: [Fwd: Songs]
This is a
multi-part message in MIME format.
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Fri, 30 May 1997 12:22:59 -0400
Message-ID:
<338EFF76.939905B9@scsn.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May
1997 12:25:26 -0400
From:
bocelts@scsn.net (R. Bentz Kirby)
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
X-Mailer: Mozilla
4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "R.
Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
Subject: Re:
Songs
X-Priority: 3
(Normal)
References:
<338EFBF2.B4A23CC9@scsn.net>
Content-Type:
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
> Songs
>
> The
hollowness of the echo,
> Years
resounding in the note.
> A song,
> Strange
aloofness,
> Some
withdrawel,
> Emotional
disenfranchisement.
> Allowing the
song to drift from the feeling.
> Allowing the
song to become a sad memory.
> Allowing the
song to become estranged.
> Some sad
memory,
> Which time
has arranged.
> <snip
what was to be The resulting etc.>
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Well, some how I accidently deleted the end of
that poem. I kind of
like it better
now.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------5DD29A023DFFEA717BD036F6--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:34:54 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
> Some of the
people WSB mentions as having read were concerned with these
> questions
too.....Alfred Korzybski, Julian Jaynes.....I haven't read
> Korzybski
yet, but I did read Jaynes' book _The Origin of Consciousness
> in the
Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind_, a fascinating book....his thesis
> is that
before the last 2500 years or so, humans were not conscious at
> all, and
that everyday activites proceeded unconsciously....whenever a
> decision had
to be made, the right-brain would send a signal over to the
> left-brain,
which was experienced as hearing a voice telling you what to
> do
("the voice of god"), much like present-day schizophrenics. He also
> suggests
that looking at idols helped set off these voices (thus
> explaining
the presence of idols at certain points in human history)--it
> is
apparently the case that looking at human figures, esp. if they have
> large eyes,
can set off auditory hallucinations.
>
It is nice to see
someone else who has read the Jaynes book. That book,
whether he is
completely right or not., forever changes the way I look
at man's early
history--up to things like the Illiad and early Hebrew
scripture. A really fascinating book. The idea of the gods evolving
from the voices
of the dead ancestors speaking to one. Lots of
implications for
poetic theory. For those who like that
sort of thing a
must read.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:38:35 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Music...
Jeff Taylor
wrote:
> sometimes
seem like they ought to form one uninterrupted phrase, which it
> is not
possible to talk through in one breath. This perhaps makes a sort
> of
disruption between writing and speaking, but perhaps not between the
> writing and
music--there is such a thing, when playing a horn, as
> circular
breathing, i.e., breathing in thru the nose while blowing out
> thru the
mouth, and by means of which you can hold a note indefinitely.
> But I never
heard of circular talking.
>
> *******
> Jeff Taylor
>
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> *******
Maybe if Roland
Kirk were still around you could get him to try. The
things he could
do with a horn were amazing.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:41:06 +0200
Reply-To: smeraldo.press@iol.it
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo
<smeraldo.press@IOL.IT>
Organization:
Teatro Smeraldo
Subject: jack & jazz
Thanks everybody
for answering to my question about "jack & jazz"!
Everybody have a
great weekend, plenty of good poetry and music...
Bye, Laura :.)
Laura Moja
Ufficio Stampa
Teatro Smeraldo
smeraldo.press@iol.it
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:10:20 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: On the Road 1st edition Facsimile
There is a number
you can call to order a 1st edition hardcover facsimile of
On the Road which
falls in line with a series of other hardcover such as
Fitzgerald,
Hemingway, Faulkner,Kesey, etc. The number to obtain this is in
Groton,
Connecticutt. It is 1-800-367-4534. Ask for the 1st Edition Library
and tell them you
would like to buy On the Road. It may be around $35.00. It
isn't the real
thing but is nice to have this novel in a hardcover format
nevertheless.
regards, Paul of TKQ....
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:21:49 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Dreams
David,
If I understood your post correctly, you
have a hard time remembering
the dreams you
dreamt before you started dreaming a day.
After I read _Book
of Dreams_ I did
a little writing experiment. There were
countless times
that I had awoken
(or truly began to dream, who knows and who ain't talkin)
and traces of
dreams were left on what I think is my conscious state. I
knew there was
poetry being lost. So I left a little
notebook and a pen for
any unconscious
songs that I might be able to capture. I
didn't think I'd
be able to do it
because I really enjoy sleeping and curse any interuption.
What I found was that I was able to train
myself to start waking up
after I'd had a
dream and to write it down in a stream of
half-consciousness. The secret is to write all the ones or even
just images
you can remember;
don't be your own critic while you're half-asleep. I'd
wake up in the
morning and have two or three pieces that I never would have
had. I don't know why I stopped doing it. Oh yeah, it's those little white
pills that the
bad men make me take every night. Now
the notepad is for
those moments of
clarity immediately preceding the sleep state.
I'm going
to start trying
to do it again. Capturing your dreams at
the right moment
is a great way to
figure out what's really going on with you.
They'll have
more meaning for
you than for anyone else. Many of my
dreams actually
turned out to be
cryptically prophetic. My sleep actually
turned out to be
more
rewarding. Think I might do some digging
for that little pad.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:42:31 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Words
I like words. Words are good. I can't think of many words I don't
like. I don't like the word 'panties'. Don't get me wrong, I love panties
I just don't like
the word. Don't get me wrong, I don't
love panties so
much that I wear
them all day long, just in the evenings.
I'm kidding.
I've never worn
panties except for the few times that I have.
My ex- had a
weird streak and
when you're trippin you can get talked into doing things
you might not
normally do. ALRIGHT ALRIGHT. I did it once when I wasn't
high. But she was there alright. Three words:
She liked it. (Suddenly
I'm Denis Leary).
Back to words. Don't turn your back on words okay, they'll
kill you.
I'm not going to
be able to say what I want to say. Here
goes there. I
have a problem
with words which stems from their void of any inherent
meaning. In my writing, I play with that void and I
like it. So maybe I
don't have that
bigga problem with words. Still and
still moving, there's
something about
those little critters that gives me the creeps.
I think
it's the fear
that my intentions and intention not to have any intentions
can be
misinterpreted. But being misinterpreted
is great. Fuck. Forget
it. No.
Don't forget fuck, forget what I was trying to write about while
using what I was
trying to write about while being creeped out and hopeful
that each 0 and 1
will be misunderstood.
"We live to survive our
paradoxes"-The Tragically Hip.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:49:02 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen
<Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: the rant pamphlet
i stumbled across a pamphlet from the
beat-seminar at nyu (in 94?)
today, which
contains photographs of Kerouac/Gins/Burroughs & two long
prose-pieces...
One is Ron Whitehead's "San
Francisco, May 1993":
Visited Lawrence
Ferlinghetti
Flew to San
Francisco
Super Shuttled to
City Lights
keys at the front desk
with address and map
Wandered
streets Kerouac Alley Kenneth Rexroth Place
lost for hours
small suitcase wighed down with
heavy words "The Mask is the Path of
the Star"
Diane di Prima's chapbook
Published in
Heaven Series White Fields place
limited edition of 50 copies to meet her
and have them signed
Where is Diane di
Prima
on Laguna Haight-Ashbury San Francisco Art Institute
"the only
war that matters is the war against the imagination"
and I'm searching dor Diane di Prima
Where is Lawrence Ferlinghetti
on Francisco Telegraph Hill Nort Beach
City Lights
"poets come
out of your closets
open your
windows, open your doors,
You have been
holed up too long
in your closed
worlds..."
and I'm searching for Lwarence
Ferlinghetti
Walked Golden gate
Bridge
holding Anncye's
hand into the wind
Alcatraz and
sailboats one bent
licking the lips
of the Bay waters
and the Pacific
sprays us with tears
of Chinese
immigrants who for forty days
and forty nights
have stood in
water
outside America's
door knocking
denied entry denied
Fisherman's wharf
seals singing
some burnt out
old hippie screeching "I am a Rock
I am an
island" for spare change from laughing
lines of tourists
from around the world waiting
for trolley tours
lunch at Fish
Alley
hike up Telegraph
Hill
what a view but
a statue of
Colombus? is this
is this a
Colombus I don't know about?
the other
Colombus? The San Francisco
Telegraph Hill
North Beach Colombus?
Father
Christopher Colombus of Our Lady of the Flowers?
no, Lawrence Ferlinghetti
says
this is THE
Christopher COlombus.
"We tried to
spray paint his
hands red but
PoliceMen
surrounded him
all night
Colombus Day
Eve."
[...]
The other by Kent Fielding (?):
"Kerouac:
1922-1969-he who honoured life."
eyes open-back
straight-thinking is the natural
state of mind
let all thoughts
pass trough you-concentrate on your
outward breath
the breath that
you give to the world
exhale
tenderness, exhale tenderness, exhale tenderness
trees hold wind
in their orange branches and grow into
dim shadows
[...]
guess i'll just
toss it out & try to remember the pictures!
nh
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:49:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CRANIAL GUITAR
To show just how
"Power Mad", "Glory Seeking" and "Money Hungry"
GERALD
NICOSIA really is
and the depths this guy will sink to I'd like to descibe
for you what
CRANIAL GUITAR by Coffee House Press looks like.
The cover is a
beautiful yellow and blue, very stylish and clean with the
words
"Selected Poems By Bob Kaufman" across the top and the title CRANIAL
GUITAR in the
center. The spine says the same thing
except it also says
"Coffee
House Press". The back cover
features a black & white photo of Bob
Kaufman with one
paragraph from the introduction by David Henderson as well
as two paragraphs
of text describing Kaufman and his work.
AMAZINGLY the
words
"Edited by Gerald Nicosia" appear NOWHERE on the front cover, back
cover or the
spine!
As a matter of
fact, the words "Gerald Nicosia" appear in only three areas of
the book (all in
small print, I might add) on the inside flyleaf, under a
half page of text
he wrote as an Editor's note and buried in the Library of
Congress
Data. In fact, despite the fact we have
been selling this book
since it first
came out I was unaware Gerry Nicosia had edited it. How's
that for a
Conspiracy of Silence!?!
I mean THE NERVE
OF THIS GUY! Who does he think he is
hiding his name in
there so we'll
all have to go searching for it! It
should be plastered all
over the cover
like (GULP! Dare I say it?) Ann Charters
name is all over
Jack Kerouac's
Selected Letters! There, I said it! Whew!
God, here come
the slings and
arrows!
Seriously,
though, as we learn more and more about people and issues, I think
we can take
measure of the man here. Nicosia is a
scholar, obviously not out
for
self-agrandizement by the looks of Cranial Guitar. The focus of this book
is strictly Bob
Kaufman. Gerry Nicosia is an incidental
here who happened to
help make it
happen.
SPECIAL TO BEAT-L
MEMBERS ONLY!
Fog City Facts
& Fiction is offering CRANIAL GUITAR
for the lowest
price on the planet! Normally priced at
$12.95 we're
offering it for a limited time only for the
unabashedly
unashamed low price of only $8.95.
This includes
shipping to anywhere in the US.
Overseas
shipments add $2.00.
Please place your
order by June 30, 1997.
Call
1-800-KER-OUAC
www.kerouac.com
PO Box 48
Monterey, CA 93940
Jerry Cimino
Fog City Facts &
Fiction
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:50:55 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar keeps Kaufman in
tune....
May 30, 1997
Jeffrey Weinberg
writes:
"...
argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
Nicosia...."
Jeffrey,
There's a difference between
"argumentative" and "committed" or
"willing to
fight for what he believes in."
Rush Limbaugh is argumentative.
Martin Luther King, Jr. was committed.
There are people who don't like either of
them, but let's not mix up
meanings.
Best, Gerry
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:10:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some of the Dharma
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970529033254.006be388@pop.pipeline.com>
Paul,
How can I
subscribe to Kerouac Quarterly?
You can e-mail me
personnally at thomjj01@holmes.ipfw.indiana.edu
Sorry for the
long address.
Thanks,
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:42:15 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: Music...
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.91.970530042849.540035616A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
>I bet we
could come up with other good author/music pairings.
music and writing
are my two great loves, so much so that i can no longer
just sit and read
or sit and listen (altho at times both are nice...)
Read any one of
WSB's cutup novels to some of the new breakbeat or
drum'n'bass
coming out of england. Any of his narrative novels go good with
downtempo/leftfield/instrumental
hiphop...
WSB has been a
huge driving force in the coming of age of electronic music.
one of, if not
the, first man to use a sample,
electronic music simply
would not exist
on the level it does today without those first forays done
by WSB, Sommerville,
and Gysin...He has been cited as influence and thanked
in the liner
notes of albums by groundbreakers such as Coldcut and Dj
Spooky, coming
into role of grandfather to yet another cultural movement.
His voice can be
heard sampled on countless records coming from all over
the world...UK,
germany, japan, netherlands, usa...It's only appropriate to
read these works
in the light of the music they've spawned. Not all the
time, mind you,
but burroughs is future; this music is future...
hey i'm babbling
a bit..
lurve,
-zach
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:41:43 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar keeps Kaufman in
tune....
At 10:50 AM
5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
May 30, 1997
>Jeffrey
Weinberg writes:
>"...
argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
>Nicosia...."
>
>Jeffrey,
> There's a difference between
"argumentative" and "committed" or
>"willing
to fight for what he believes in."
> Rush Limbaugh is argumentative.
> Martin Luther King, Jr. was committed.
> There are people who don't like either
of them, but let's not mix up
>meanings.
>
> Best, Gerry
>
>Don't
disgrace the name of the great Dr. King by comparing yourself to him.
Nicosia-committed
I agree. Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:48:07 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: signoff
At 02:39 AM
5/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 29
May 1997, s.a. griffin wrote:
>
>> in your
direction. the beats were, if nothing
else to me, absolutely
>> oppopsed
to academia and establishment bullshit. how many of our boys and
>> girls
actually attended college and of those that did, how many finished?
>>
>
>
>I'm not sure
what you are talking about here.....
>They may have
been opposed to academic "bullshit" (and God knows there is
>plenty of
that), but I don't think that means they were necessarily opposed
>to academia
as such. Burroughs, Ginsberg, & Snyder all finished college,
>the latter 2
eventually becoming university professors. Probably it is
>like
Burroughs said in _Western Lands_ (p.125):
>
>"Knowledge
takes many forms and contexts. Cloistered ivy-covered halls,
>serious
youths in academic garb....the typical is so often *not* where
>it's at,
deliberately avoided like a cliche, that it becomes in time
>atypical, and
by the inexorable logic of fashion, is again where it's at."
>
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
>
>
point well
made. but I think they are possibly the
exceptions and not the
rule. i am not opposed to education, hell, I think
that is the answer, I am
opposed only to
the abuse of power bred by institutional thinking; the
academic
"bullshit". that seems to be
what turned most away then and now.
I find that in
general (in general I say...) that few teach how to be
inspired by
imagination, the discipline of well directed thought. they can
only bring to the
table what was served to them decades prior.
also
practical
experience comes into play. then we come
to another unfortunate
present reality,
who teaches these days? TAs? I know that I am taking
broad strokes
here, but there is truth in it.
I was listening
to Henry Miller last night on the radio while driving,
talking about the
radical demise of individuals in his time.
seems to apply
even moreso
today. universities by and large seem to
be leading the parade,
or at least
falling in line, as the cost of education skyrockets.
I like your
burroughs reference re fashion, it is right on.
thanks.
all the best
xxxooo
s.a.
_______________________________________________________________________
Lorraine M.
Perrotta email: lperrotta@huntington.edu
Acquisitions
Librarian phone: 818-405-2184
The Huntington
Library
1151 Oxford Road
San Marino,
CA 91108
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:24:29 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: poem
i'm
buried
&
butterflies
eat
my feet
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:34:43 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: A bit of good fortune
Beat Friends,
Wow, I've got to share this with you
guys! A few months(?) ago someone
posted a URL for
a new Kerouac release (Could have been "Kicks, Joy,
Darkness", I
can't remember), but on the site was a contest to put
Kerouac's novels
in chronological order. I entered it on
lark (while I
enjoy his poetry
immensely, OTR is the only novel I've read to date--rest
assured that the
others are on my short "to read" list). Well, I come home
from work, check
the mail, and sitting among the junk mail was a large
envelope from
Ryko. I was right! I chose "Book of Blues" as my prize
and
it's sitting by
my side waiting for me to finish this message so I can
devour it with my
dinner and a cold beer. . .
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
This week is
finally looking up! (good thing it's ending),
Bruce
--------------------------
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
12th Chorus (from
Orlanda Blues)
The evening
silencius
Poetry
is so pretty
When you silence it like that
It's nice to pop
pearl pages
the candlelight,
you know,
is dedicated to poets
Okay--dreaming
fields--Blake
wants to hear the
latest development
in the man the
way the bleat
lambs bleakly
blake it now
and that is soft,
Ah William,
I guess as soft as Spanish
dreams, what was it Trappist
said:--"Goats
as
soft
as
sleep"
Something like
that
Farewell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:07:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: poem
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970530232429.006975e4@pop.gpnet.it>
oh Lana Turner
[aka Rinaldo] we love you get up
--Frank O'Hara
>i'm
>buried
>&
>butterflies
>eat
>my feet
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:16:17 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac in the Top 40
Reply to message
from e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU of Thu, 29 May
>
>>
>> andrew,
what is 10,000 Maniacs? They do a song entitled Jack Kerouac.
>>
>
> 10,000 Maniacs broke up several years
ago. It's more likely to be
>Morphine, the three-man, sax-bass-drums combo, from the Joy, Kicks
>CD.
There's the
10,000 Maniacs song, the Morphine song...anyone know of any
other songs
referring to the Beats?
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:28:58 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: All Things
Comments: cc:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> JWHasbrouck
wrote:
>
> > All
things considered, I think the Beat-l list is far more interesting
> >
> > now
than it has been at any time during the last two years or so
> > during
> > which
I've been a subscriber.
> >
> > John
Hasbrouck, LurkMaster
>
> As a result of this post, I vote that we
elevate John to Lurkmeister,
> an honor
that has been bestowed upon few, if any.
The only person I
> know who has
come close is the Copy meister guy, Rich.
Let us examine
> the
parrallism of this idea:
>
> Making
copies = Reading email
>
> etc.
>
> If anyone
can expand upon this, I will be very happy to read it.
>
>
Congratulations John, Lurkmaster, or Lurkmeister. And John, if elected,
> will you
serve?
>
HASBROUCK
RESPONDS:
If elected, I
will not only serve, but I will give the following
acceptance
speech:
It is with a deep
and profound sense of humility and awareness of my own
mortality that I
accept the honorific title of Beat-L LurkMeister.
Having dutifully
read nearly all of the postings relating to the Big
Estate Debate, I
have posted nothing myself in nearly six weeks, and I
feel that I am
only beginning to grasp how I might live up to the
position into
which I have now been thrust - representative of those who
say little, yet
ponder much. In closing, I wish to thank my mother and
father, without
whom I would never have been possible. Thank you. (Steps
back, waving.)
BTW, are there
any other candidates?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:33:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: CRANIAL GUITAR
In-Reply-To:
<970530134924_-329938574@emout13.mail.aol.com>
Will rush out
immediamento to get a copy. But am I the
only one who
suspects that
Gerry Nicosia doesn't really exist--that he's actually Doc
Benway on beanies
or whatever those pills are called?
Also, I have to
unsubscribe for a
couple of weeks due to an Interstate trip to the
UnderZone; will
everyone promise not to say anything purple or red to
Benway (or
anything virtual to Nicosia) til I'm back? // John M.
>To show just
how "Power Mad", "Glory Seeking" and "Money
Hungry" GERALD
>NICOSIA
really is and the depths this guy will sink to I'd like to descibe
>for you what
CRANIAL GUITAR by Coffee House Press looks like.
>
>The cover is
a beautiful yellow and blue, very stylish and clean with the
>words
"Selected Poems By Bob Kaufman" across the top and the title CRANIAL
>GUITAR in the
center. The spine says the same thing
except it also says
>"Coffee
House Press". The back cover
features a black & white photo of Bob
>Kaufman with
one paragraph from the introduction by David Henderson as well
>as two
paragraphs of text describing Kaufman and his work. AMAZINGLY the
>words
"Edited by Gerald Nicosia" appear NOWHERE on the front cover, back
>cover or the
spine!
>
>As a matter
of fact, the words "Gerald Nicosia" appear in only three areas of
>the book (all
in small print, I might add) on the inside flyleaf, under a
>half page of
text he wrote as an Editor's note and buried in the Library of
>Congress
Data. In fact, despite the fact we have
been selling this book
>since it
first came out I was unaware Gerry Nicosia had edited it. How's
>that for a
Conspiracy of Silence!?!
>
>I mean THE
NERVE OF THIS GUY! Who does he think he
is hiding his name in
>there so
we'll all have to go searching for it!
It should be plastered all
>over the
cover like (GULP! Dare I say it?) Ann
Charters name is all over
>Jack
Kerouac's Selected Letters! There, I
said it! Whew! God, here come
>the slings
and arrows!
>
>Seriously,
though, as we learn more and more about people and issues, I think
>we can take
measure of the man here. Nicosia is a
scholar, obviously not out
>for
self-agrandizement by the looks of Cranial Guitar. The focus of this book
>is strictly
Bob Kaufman. Gerry Nicosia is an
incidental here who happened to
>help make it
happen.
>
>
>SPECIAL TO BEAT-L
MEMBERS ONLY!
>
>Fog City
Facts & Fiction is offering CRANIAL GUITAR
>for the
lowest price on the planet! Normally
priced at
>$12.95 we're
offering it for a limited time only for the
>unabashedly
unashamed low price of only $8.95.
>This includes
shipping to anywhere in the US.
>Overseas
shipments add $2.00.
>Please place
your order by June 30, 1997.
>
>Call
1-800-KER-OUAC
>www.kerouac.com
>PO Box 48
>Monterey,
CA 93940
>
>
>Jerry Cimino
>Fog City
Facts & Fiction
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:46:29 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...(industrial)
not to mention
Industrial Music, which owes almost everything it's got to
Burroughs....in
terms of atmosphere, cut-up techniques, loops, etc. And
space. There's a really awesome website devoted to
this theme, contact me
for the address,
i don't have it right now.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:02:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs; was Re: my condolences to
whoever just "signed
off"...
In a message
dated 97-05-30 15:41:45 EDT, you write:
<<
i have NO CLUE whether that made ANY
sense. one of those seizures where
the fingers just went nuts and don't know what
they typed. i'll just
clean the bottom of this page out and send it
without reading it and
someone else can dream up a dream for me that
makes sense of the
finger-vomit.
david rhaesa >>
makes sense to
me! That;s a really interesting
idea.....I often try to
imagine what
other people are thinking/dreaming about.
i try to be conscious
of my own thought
patterns and project them onto others', watching their eye
movements, what
are they looking at, oh, they must be thinking
this.....sometimes
i'm right and i feel telepathic, sometimes i'm desperately
wrong and i feel
stupid. But it actually doesn't matter
what they're really
thinking cause
the stories i make up for them are more interesting
anyway........................!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:09:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Desire
In a message dated
97-05-30 12:41:14 EDT, you write:
<< n
g.
Possibilites forgotten
Are suggested
And are within our grasp
I feel the lunar ebb.
>>
i feel a constant
disillusioning, my thoughts move in fast forward and slow
motion
simultaneously....like slo mo videos where the shadows of movement
leave traces
behind them. Constant
realization....becoming unbecome.
Becoming other---what was i in the first
place? I can only come to the
conclusion that
'I' never existed.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:15:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Current subscribers
wow kids!!!!
I just want to
take a moment to appreciate this list and all it's done for me
in just 2 days.
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
there. i feel
better now. Love to all, spread it around like jam.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:18:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Queen Vashti (Esther I)
In a message
dated 97-05-30 17:01:23 EDT, you write:
<<
She waltzes into the room
Decoding my genetic code
Telling strange and tragic tales
Of Vashti and her heroines.
>>
he prances into
my room
unscrambling the
ancient theremin
Telling tall and
magic tales
of scratchies and
heroin.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:21:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: this beat list
scream of ripping flesh pierces brain reduces
heart to mass of tangles
despair
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:21:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dreams
James William
Marshall wrote:
>
> David,
> If I understood your post correctly, you
have a hard time remembering
> the dreams
you dreamt before you started dreaming a day.
After I read _Book
> of Dreams_ I
did a little writing experiment. There
were countless times
> that I had
awoken (or truly began to dream, who knows and who ain't talkin)
> and traces
of dreams were left on what I think is my conscious state. I
> knew there
was poetry being lost. So I left a
little notebook and a pen for
> any
unconscious songs that I might be able to capture. I didn't think I'd
> be able to
do it because I really enjoy sleeping and curse any interuption.
> What I found was that I was able to train
myself to start waking up
> after I'd
had a dream and to write it down in a stream of
> half-consciousness. The secret is to write all the ones or even
just images
> you can
remember; don't be your own critic while you're half-asleep. I'd
> wake up in
the morning and have two or three pieces that I never would have
> had. I don't know why I stopped doing it. Oh yeah, it's those little white
> pills that
the bad men make me take every night.
Now the notepad is for
> those
moments of clarity immediately preceding the sleep state. I'm going
> to start
trying to do it again. Capturing your
dreams at the right moment
> is a great
way to figure out what's really going on with you. They'll have
> more meaning
for you than for anyone else. Many of my
dreams actually
> turned out
to be cryptically prophetic. My sleep
actually turned out to be
> more
rewarding. Think I might do some digging
for that little pad.
>
James M.
that's part of
it. i'll try the notebook again. also see about a few
less white pills.
but it's more that
that too.
almost a trapped
outside myself feeling. like the white
pills have shut
down a central
core of being.
"you can be
in my dream
if i can be in
yours"
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:30:27 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
In a message
dated 97-05-30 15:04:32 EDT, you write:
<< 11/27/64
- Masonic Memorial Auditorium, SF, CA
Would this be the one?
Mike
>>
Thank you
Mike. That's it.
Pam
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:44:49 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: this beat list
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> scream of ripping flesh pierces brain reduces
heart to mass of tangles
> despair
synapses twist
through backyard memory of childhood
puppy-love
tangled and
ending in empty memory
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:59:17 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Desire
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
Constant
realization
....becoming
unbecome.
Becoming
other---what was i in the first place?
I can only come
to the
conclusion that
'I'
never existed.
never. what's never?
unbecoming of
become
perpetual
demolition
of it
that connects
"i"
with
"I"
and IT
is it
ever and never
dance a slow
waltz
and eternity
becomes
straightjacketed
in some fool's
concept of time.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:17:37 -0700
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar keeps Kaufman in
tune....
Comments: cc:
WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
At 04:41 PM
5/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:50 AM
5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
May 30, 1997
>>Jeffrey
Weinberg writes:
>>"...
argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
>>Nicosia...."
>>
>>Jeffrey,
>> There's a difference between
"argumentative" and "committed" or
>>"willing
to fight for what he believes in."
>> Rush Limbaugh is argumentative.
>> Martin Luther King, Jr. was committed.
>> There are people who don't like either
of them, but let's not mix up
>>meanings.
>>
>> Best, Gerry
>>
>>Don't
disgrace the name of the great Dr. King by comparing yourself to him.
>Nicosia-committed
I agree. Phil
>
Dear Phil, May 30, 1997
Here we just calm things down, and get
agreements about no slander,
etc., and you turn
around and call me a "disgrace."
I hope everybody's watching just who
starts the gunfights and who
lights the fires
around here.
Your use of the word
"disgrace" about me is clearly over the bounds
set by Bill
Gargan.
I did not compare myself to Martin
Luther King, Jr., any more than I
was comparing
myself to Rush Limbaugh. I was using
both of them as examples
to make a
semantic distinction between argumentative and committed.
My commitment to helping black people,
by the way, goes a long way
back, and I have
put my time and energy where my mouth is.
For years I
worked with a
ghetto church in Chicago, the Lawndale Community Church, in
the same
neighborhood where my dad delivered mail, working with troubled
neighborhood
kids, counseling and tutoring, etc.
Recently I met with Martin Luther
King's daughter, Bernice, to
discuss the issue
of a white family adopting a black child.
JUST WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR BLACK
PEOPLE THAT ENABLES YOU TO JUDGE
ME A DISGRACE IN
THIS REGARD?
(Please answer in a civilized manner,
as per Mr. Gargan's
instructions, and
without namecalling.)
Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:24:08 -0700
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From: Ben <beidelson@USA.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Road 1st edition Facsimile
This is a
multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_01BC6D37.6DA9BA80
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
HELP!! I'm stuck
on this list and I'm only ten years old!
I can't get =
off! HOW DO I GET UNLISTED?!? (no insult
intended).
Ben Eidelson
----
From: Paul Maher
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Friday, May
30, 1997 9:56 AM
Subject: On the Road 1st edition Facsimile
There is a number
you can call to order a 1st edition hardcover =
facsimile of
On the Road which
falls in line with a series of other hardcover such as
Fitzgerald,
Hemingway, Faulkner,Kesey, etc. The number to obtain this is =
in
Groton,
Connecticutt. It is 1-800-367-4534. Ask for the 1st Edition =
Library
and tell them you
would like to buy On the Road. It may be around =
$35.00. It
isn't the real
thing but is nice to have this novel in a hardcover =
format
nevertheless.
regards, Paul of TKQ....
------=_NextPart_000_01BC6D37.6DA9BA80
Content-Type:
text/html;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META
content=3D'"Trident 4.71.0544.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY><FONT
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P><FONT
size=3D+4>HELP!!</FONT> <FONT size=3D+1>I'm stuck on this list =
and I'm only=20
ten years
old! I can't get off! <FONT size=3D+2>HOW DO I GET =
UNLISTED?!?</FONT>=20
(no insult
intended).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT
size=3D+1>Ben Eidelson</FONT>
<P><FONT
size=3D+1></FONT> </P>
----<BR>
<B>From:
</B>Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM><BR>
<B>To:
</B>Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L =
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU><BR>
<B>Date:
</B>Friday, May 30, 1997 9:56 AM<BR>
<B>Subject:
</B> On the Road 1st edition Facsimile<BR>
<BR>
<HTML><BODY><FONT
size=3D2>There is a number you can call to order a 1st =
edition=20
hardcover
facsimile of<BR>
On the Road which
falls in line with a series of other hardcover such =
as<BR>
Fitzgerald,
Hemingway, Faulkner,Kesey, etc. The number to obtain this is =
in<BR>
Groton,
Connecticutt. It is 1-800-367-4534. Ask for the 1st Edition =
Library<BR>
and tell them you
would like to buy On the Road. It may be around =
$35.00.
It<BR>
isn't the real
thing but is nice to have this novel in a hardcover =
format<BR>
nevertheless.
regards, Paul of TKQ....<BR>
</FONT></FONT>
</BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC6D37.6DA9BA80--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:29:29 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Random Revelation
>
> just got a
packet in the mail from dallas in cambridge with the packets of
"firewalk thru madness" and
"beyond the haldol haze" collections i wrote in 92
and lost.
and this little tidbit i gave dallas with a letter in wintson-salem
or evanston - they run together.
>
> Random
Revelation
> or
>
Revalationary
> Randomness
>
> dbr -
>
> Yahtzee
> a random
> game
> that's
> not quite
random
> but more
> than Spades
> I guess
> at least
> when
> my friend
> the Manson
> look alike
> is dealing
the cards
> and my
partner
> Saint John
> was writing
> Revelations
> as he
> explained
> the
righteousness
> of Hitler
> to me
> and Gandhi
> and Jesus
> lifted him
> out of his
> Thorzine
haze
> and let him
> see the
> Angels
> of a
> different
color
> (like the
horse
> in the
Wizard of Oz)
> so that he
> could go
> to Germany
> through a
> book
> called
> Lightning
> and explain
> it all
> to Adolph
> before they
> died
> and then
> he could
> explain it
> all to
Adolph
> Coors
> and Fred
Domino
> over
Caserolle
> at the Soup
Kitchen
> in downtown
> Iowa City
> next to the
> church
> where
> the pastor
> is a janitor
> and the
> admiral
> is an
> admissions
> officer
> and
> the piano
> hasn't been
> tuned
> since
> it got
> there
> in 1836.
>
> (remember
the cards games with John like yesterday)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:48:44 -0700
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Bob Kaufman and Martin Luther King
May 30,
1997
Just thinking about the irony of this:
I am accused by Phil Chaput
of
"disgracing" Dr. Martin Luther King (one of my heroes) just by
mentioning
his name from my
lips.
And it's all in the context of my
having just helped bring honor to
the GREATEST BLACK
POET OF THE BEAT GENERATION: BOB KAUFMAN.
(I don't think
Ted or Amiri
would dispute me on that.)
Again, Phil, what have YOU been doing
for black people lately?
With all due respect,
Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:54:33 +0000
Reply-To: annie@rt66.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: annie shank <annie@RT66.COM>
Organization: you
can't be serious
Subject: Just for starters: 3
Haight: 69
Junkies wandering
the dawn
wraiths in Dayglo
vague in their
near-transparency
Shiva worshippers
naked as sunlight
chanting morning
mantra in a park tree
Acid dealer
electric shaman
amid acolytes
prismatic
Amber street
lamps
glowing
witchlights in
the dusk
Musk of patchouli
City smell of bus
exhaust
Distant tang of
ocean:
Mystic incense of
home
to those once
transformed
and still
dreaming
2/94
annie
annie@rt66.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:01:43 -0400
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: i loved
tonight i'm
sad..going to nyc tomorrow to my old friends in brooklyn...i
wonder why i
moved away sometimes, then i remember. i
hate, i mean love, i
mean, hate the
city. i miss having friends, but then i
remember how little
those people
really counted when i was dying. in New
york, if you don't
write or paint
every day, it gets clogged up inside you, you need to get it
out of your
system. That was my first mistake, and i
guess my biggest. How
foolish i was to
think love existed!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:09:58 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: i loved
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
...i wonder why i
moved away sometimes, then i remember.
this one made my
day. applies to so much more than
'moving away'....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:20:23 -0400
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: odd bits o'this and that. thoughts for
the day, or whatever
In-Reply-To: <338EF959.541FA2C7@scsn.net>
yep its me agin
on a saturday night, blonde on blond playing,
free association
among remembered quotations:
from Moby Dick:
pip and what he
became
"the intense
concentration of self in the middle of such a heartless
immensity, my
god! the sea had jeeringly kept his finite body up, but
drowned the
infinite in his soul. not drowned entriely though, rather,
carried down
alive to wondrous deptshs, where strange shapes of the
unwarped primal
world glided to and from before his passive eyes. he saw
god's foot upon
the treadle of the loom, and spoke it, and therfore his
shipmates called
him mad...[pip] 'i look you look he looks,,,and you and i
you and he; and
we ye and they, are all bats...here's the ship's naval,
this doubloon
here, and they are all on fire to unscrew it, but unscrew yr
navel and what's
the consequence. then again, if it stays here, that is
ugly too, for
when aught's nailed to the mast its a sign that things grow
desperate..
wcw/asphodel, bk
one
i cannot say
that i have gone to hell
for your love
but often
found myself there
in your pursuit
i did not like it
and wanted to be in heaven
hear me out
,,,it is the mind
that must be cured
short of death's
intervention,
and the will becomes again
a garden
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:33:59 EST
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From: Clay Vaughan <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>
Subject: unsolicited influence
Night of breaking
glass
remembering Elise
"Baby it's up to you," is
what she's
actually saying, "about how many
times
you wanta see me and all that-- but
I want to be independent like I say."
from SUBTERRANEANS, by
Jack Kerouac
An emptied bottle
abruptly tossed
from hand over
head
over backward
lost
in a high dive
off
a third floor
roof
onto a street
below
More than symbol
evincing loss
(did this really
happen once?)
what in the world
suggests as
strange
a scene as this
than an
unrequited
love for an awful
girl
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:34:54 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: odd bits o'this and that. thoughts
for the day, or whatever
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yep its me
agin on a saturday night, blonde on blond playing,
> free
association among remembered quotations:
>
its me again at
my night is Friday though they are all the same to me -
they're
nights. loved your quotes and thought
i'd send back a few.
"He was
insane. And when you look directly at an
insane man all you see
is a reflection
of your own knowledge that he's insane, which is not so
see him at
all. To see him you must see what he saw
and when you are
trying to see the
vision of an insane man, an oblique route is the only
way to come at
it."
-- Robert Pirsig
"One must
harbor chaos within to give birth to a dancing star."
-- Nietzsche
"I think
present-day reason is an analogue of the flat earth of the
medieval
period. If you go too far beyond it
you're presumed to fall
off, into
insanity. And people are very much
afraid of that. I think
this fear of
insanity is comparable to the fear people once had of
falling off the
edge of the world."
-- Robert Pirsig
"Nay, be a
Columbus to whole new continents and worlds within you,
opening new
channels, not of trade, but of thought.
Every man is the
lord of a realm
beside which the earthly empire of the Czar is but a
pretty state, a
hummock left for the ice."
-- Henry David
Thoreau
"(A bluetick
hound bays out there in the fog, running scared and lost
because he can't
see. No tracks on the ground but the
one's he's
making, and he
sniffs in every direction with his cold rubber nose and
picks up no scent
but his own fear, fear burning down into him like
steam.) It's gonna burn me just that way, finally
telling all about
this."
-- Ken Kesey
"If one
listens to the faintest but constant suggestions of his genius,
which are
certainly true, he sees not to what extremes, or even insanity
it may lead him;
and yet that way, as he grows more and more faithful,
his road
lies. The faintest assured objection
which one healthy man
feels will at
length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind.
No man ever
followed his genius till it misled him.
Though the result
were bodily
weakness, yet perhaps no one can say that the consequences
were to be
regretted, for these were a life in conformity to higher
principles."
-- Henry David
Thoreau
"Good is a
verb."
-- Robert Pirsig
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:43:37 -0700
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From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: odd bits o'this and that. thoughts
for the day, or whatever
At 08:34 PM
5/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>>
>> yep its
me agin on a saturday night, blonde on blond playing,
>> free
association among remembered quotations:
>>
>its me again
at my night is Friday though they are all the same to me -
>they're
nights. loved your quotes and thought
i'd send back a few.
>
>"He was
insane. And when you look directly at an
insane man all you see
>is a
reflection of your own knowledge that he's insane, which is not so
>see him at
all. To see him you must see what he saw
and when you are
>trying to see
the vision of an insane man, an oblique route is the only
>way to come
at it."
>-- Robert
Pirsig
>
>"One
must harbor chaos within to give birth to a dancing star."
>-- Nietzsche
>
>"I think
present-day reason is an analogue of the flat earth of the
>medieval
period. If you go too far beyond it
you're presumed to fall
>off, into
insanity. And people are very much
afraid of that. I think
>this fear of
insanity is comparable to the fear people once had of
>falling off the
edge of the world."
>-- Robert
Pirsig
>
>"Nay, be
a Columbus to whole new continents and worlds within you,
>opening new
channels, not of trade, but of thought.
Every man is the
>lord of a
realm beside which the earthly empire of the Czar is but a
>pretty state,
a hummock left for the ice."
>-- Henry
David Thoreau
>
>"(A
bluetick hound bays out there in the fog, running scared and lost
>because he
can't see. No tracks on the ground but
the one's he's
>making, and
he sniffs in every direction with his cold rubber nose and
>picks up no
scent but his own fear, fear burning down into him like
>steam.) It's gonna burn me just that way, finally
telling all about
>this."
>-- Ken Kesey
>
>"If one
listens to the faintest but constant suggestions of his genius,
>which are
certainly true, he sees not to what extremes, or even insanity
>it may lead
him; and yet that way, as he grows more and more faithful,
>his road
lies. The faintest assured objection
which one healthy man
>feels will at
length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind.
>No man ever
followed his genius till it misled him.
Though the result
>were bodily
weakness, yet perhaps no one can say that the consequences
>were to be
regretted, for these were a life in conformity to higher
>principles."
>-- Henry
David Thoreau
>
>"Good is
a verb."
>-- Robert
Pirsig
>
>
"let us say
yes to our presence in chaos"
john cage
_______________________________________________________________________
Lorraine M.
Perrotta email: lperrotta@huntington.edu
Acquisitions
Librarian phone: 818-405-2184
The Huntington
Library
1151 Oxford Road
San Marino,
CA 91108
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:12:54 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: meeting W.S.B. to ben
HI,
I am a 11 year
old I know William S. B. So I know you are trapped on the
list.
but some of the
stuff is sota neat just do not bring it to school. If
you want to get
off the list just
e-mail my mom, oKay? I really like him he is cool. You
like cats?
I do he does he
has a lot of cats. He likes salt. He has
a bunch of
neat art stuff.
He shoots it and stuff. HE is my fab. art person. HE IS
COOL! but this
list may not be cool
so just e-mail my
mom if you want to depart from it.
Lena
PS E-mail me at
Lena@sunflower.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:01:01 -0400
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From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: how annoying some of these whiny
people are!
Just what was in
that suitcase in Pulp Fiction anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:02:18 -0400
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From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
I bet we all
listen to music almost all the time.
It'd be inneresting if
people posted
their soundtracks with their posts.
(ben neil)
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:02:47 -0400
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From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
In a message
dated 97-05-30 11:28:10 EDT, someone wrote
<< <<
Do you remember when you first heard
Dylan? >>
I remember too
many late nights at the capitol theater in port chester, n.y.
( run by howard
stein? later of the ??? in nyc?)..........
lay lady lay etc.......
not the first but
close enuf
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:02:47 -0400
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From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
In a message
dated 97-05-30 13:57:03 EDT, you write:
<< How
'bout: read Burroughs and listen Throbbing Gristle? >>
Too obvious. How about Pynchon/Pierre Henry
Genet/Coil...........too
obvious
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:02:22 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
Sean Elias wrote:
>
> I bet we all
listen to music almost all the time.
It'd be inneresting if
> people
posted their soundtracks with their posts.
(ben neil)
Patricia listens
to AD Astra by Celtic Visions, ( a local celtic group)
only cd i own and
i figured out the computer would play it. its good.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:12:41 -0400
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From: "Jason P. Mast"
<Oddthought@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a calm request
Well my account
is no longer accepting e-mail because of this inanity. I
decide to step
out to vegas for a weekend and this is the result I would like
to personally
thank the contributers to this, even though everyone else seems
to have been
doing it for me. I think that the principals (mostly Ph.d's
apparently)
should step back and realize that there were some hard lessons
learned in
kindergarten, "even if they did hit first there is room to play
nicely
tomorrow." If that didn't penetrate
your thick skulls at least grade
yourself at the
level you would grade student papers. Cut the crap and
namecalling make real
points and if the horse is dead stop beating it.
personal replies
should have declawed the gerbil :-(
thank yu
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:39:35 +0000
Reply-To: annie@rt66.com
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From: annie shank <annie@RT66.COM>
Organization: you
can't be serious
Subject: Re: Dylan memories
Sean Elias wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-05-30 11:28:10 EDT, someone wrote
> <<
<< Do you remember when you first heard
> Dylan? >>
I think it musta
been '64; I know it was my jr. year in high school.
"Hey, hey,
Woody Guthrie/I wrote you a song....."
Ah, yes....
annie annie@rt66.com
"What fresh
hell is this?" Dorothy Parker, upon
awakening
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:29:22 -0400
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From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
How about Kurt
Vonnegut and light-hearted polka?
Bruce
--------------------------
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:17:54 -0400
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From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP SUCKS THE BIG ONE
At 05:17 PM
5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 04:41 PM
5/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 10:50
AM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
May 30, 1997
>>>Jeffrey
Weinberg writes:
>>>"...
argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
>>>Nicosia...."
>>>
>>>Jeffrey,
>>> There's a difference between
"argumentative" and "committed" or
>>>"willing
to fight for what he believes in."
>>> Rush Limbaugh is argumentative.
>>> Martin Luther King, Jr. was committed.
>>> There are people who don't like either
of them, but let's not mix up
>>>meanings.
>>>
>>> Best, Gerry
>>>
>>>Don't
disgrace the name of the great Dr. King by comparing yourself to him.
>>Nicosia-committed
I agree. Phil
>>
>
>Dear
Phil, May 30, 1997
>
> Here we just calm things down, and get
agreements about no slander,
>etc., and you
turn around and call me a "disgrace."
> I hope everybody's watching just who
starts the gunfights and who
>lights the
fires around here.
> Your use of the word
"disgrace" about me is clearly over the bounds
>set by Bill
Gargan.
> I did not compare myself to Martin
Luther King, Jr., any more than I
>was comparing
myself to Rush Limbaugh. I was using
both of them as examples
>to make a
semantic distinction between argumentative and committed.
> My commitment to helping black people,
by the way, goes a long way
>back, and I
have put my time and energy where my mouth is.
For years I
>worked with a
ghetto church in Chicago, the Lawndale Community Church, in
>the same
neighborhood where my dad delivered mail, working with troubled
>neighborhood
kids, counseling and tutoring, etc.
> Recently I met with Martin Luther
King's daughter, Bernice, to
>discuss the
issue of a white family adopting a black child.
Boy Gerry your a
legend in your own mind. The fact of the matter is that
it's bad enough
that your constantly tooting your own horn but the fact you
compare yourself
to Martin Luther King in any way shape or form makes me
want to puke. Now
we have Cimino singing your praises to the world because
you only put your
name in three places on Kaufman's book. Well praise be to
God to Gerry
Nicosia he must be the greatest man on earth for that!
> JUST WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR BLACK
PEOPLE THAT ENABLES YOU TO JUDGE
>ME A DISGRACE
IN THIS REGARD?
Do you read
English Mr. Scholar I said you disgraced MARTIN LUTHER KING'S
NAME because you
compared yourself to him by saying you were committed like
him. I don't
think your cause quite compares with his Gerry (not by a long
shot) and quite
frankly it pissed me off because he was my hero too. Wow, we
do have something
in common. Gerry I'm sure your not prejudiced and I never
implied you were
(from what I've heard about you I'd say your absolutely not
prejudice.) so
you don't have to use this post to get on your soapbox and
preach to us
about how wonderful you are. That's just my point I'm sick of
hearing how great
you are. This has nothing to do with what I've done for
black people but
if I had to answer that I'd say the most important thing is
I've raised three
fine boys who haven't got as much as an atom of prejudice
in their bodies.
On a Saturday in my yard the basketball court looks like as
one of my friends
once said "the United Nations". As far as heros another
one of mine was
Lenny Bruce and that's why I say "Fuck censorship" Just
remember it was
YOUR THREATENING TO SUE THE BEAT-L LIST that got this list
censored in the
first place. In the spirit on Non-censorship I ask you- How
long did your
father jerk off in the flower pot to raise a blooming idiot
like you? You
know what Gerry I don't give a fiddler's fuck if I get thrown
off the list
cause listening to you makes me sick anyway.
Take those rules
about censorship
print it out, roll it into a ball and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.
A person can only
take so much. UNCENSORED IN LOWELL - Phil Chaput
> (Please answer in a civilized manner,
as per Mr. Gargan's
>instructions,
and without namecalling.)
IS THAT CIVILIZED
ENOUGH?
> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
>
>
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:28:23 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: SHOOTING STARS
What music?
Tonight again it
John Lee Hooker doin "Chill Out"
(tho some strange Wagnerian Sturm and
Drang
tape come on whenever I get to posts
regarding
post mortem aftermaths of beaten
novelists)
Wishing I had
some art to shoot.
No art to spare
and I sold the 12 gauge last fall.
What is Bill
shooting his art with?
12 guage?
20? Shooting a nice light
skeet load in a
20 or ruinous 00Buck in
a magnum 12
gage? Over and under?
Side by side?
My guess is
pump. Nothing
beats a pump
shotgun for the malicious
Kerchunk! that
action makes.
But you don't
have to tie off
and it doesn't
leave track marks
Maybe a sore
shoulder
If Billy the Kid
only had some art to shoot.
But he'd rather
shoot artists I supose.
Wonder if Bill
ever hears the ghostly voice of
his mother
telling him not to play with guns.
Sort of a bad
record in target practice.
J Stauffer
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:45:00 -0700
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP SUCKS THE BIG ONE
May 30, 1997
Phil Chaput
writes:
... the fact you
>compare
yourself to Martin Luther King in any way shape or form makes me
>want to
puke....
.... In the
spirit on Non-censorship I ask you- How
>long did your
father jerk off in the flower pot to raise a blooming idiot
>like you?
Phil,
Learn to read. I did not compare myself to Martin Luther
King.
The real disgrace is you pretending to
represent Jack Kerouac in any
shape or
form. Jack, Allen, Bill, and Gregory
fought censorship not for the
right to slander,
libel, demean, and defame other people, but to express the
full range of
their humanity, their sexuality, their joy in life, and their
spiritual quest
for knowledge. Jack went out of his way
to avoid hurting
people, both
physically and with his words. When
people told him they were
hurt by some of
the revelations in his writing, such as Carolyn, it pained
him deeply.
Your father was one of the finest
gentlemen I ever met.
Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:46:39 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: cancership or just boring bile
One of the
interesting observations for me is the fear and loathing that
beat literature
and beatophiles seem to bring out. I
have to say i have
enjoyed the
poetry posting that have been made but fear that they may
not be all be
actually beat. yet i am not a great one
to know right off
what is beat.
Phil seems to
think that any curtailing of his emotional tantrums is
somehow
censorship. well here is a little story on me.
when i am
nervous or have
done something stupid i have a tendancy to go on and
compound the
hell. once at a party things got weird and i got to
motormouthing it.
wsb turned to me and with a great smile said shut up.
it was the
perfect thing to say , it restored interest to the party and
no one in their
right mind thought it was censorship. More air quality
control.
So if i like beat
literature and read it all the time is the provincial
poetry i write
somehow beat.
you judge.
Cowgirl blues
The castrating
cow from wellman county
A young calf
called Emily Ann
found a skirt
hanging on the fence
next to the
coyote skulls and hawk wings,
she puts it on
over her horns.
It's a magical skirt transforming her into a
cowgirl.
She is a sweet
looking thing,
wide hips and
long lashes,
She heads east
along the river
tromping through elkins prairie
she eyes the
bulls that team along the river.
She sways her
thighs and
with a bawling
voice says
Those city
slicker gals, all they do is
they open up and
just let them at it..
Well I aint that
way.
She leans, leans
on a young wild bull,
she leads him
away with tales of corn.
She uses the name
ann van
She eyes that
bull like a tit,
She rolls her
eyes and r's and says
those city gals,
they just open their legs
and just let them
at it,
I aint that way,
I let them
because I'm a good cow girl.
Now I am a wild
cow girl,
I let them, and
Then
I cross my knees
and it's over.
I steer them to
me
I ain't like
those city gals.
May 31, 1997
The candor bird
She had hair like
sunshine and summer.
In front of the
brick and stone house
stood dried
catfish heads,
perched on each
fence post
sentinels of
naked bone.
Her youth was
lean and hungry
striding across
continents.
Her music the
words of poets
in barns and on
blankets.
She rhymed colors
and verbs.
She flew in and
out of the
phoenix flames,
pulling out
long red embers,
taking them into
her
until she glowed
like a star.
Her heart turned
warm,
No protection
left,
her tongue
melted,
Vomiting coals,
she gave birth
and lived in the
phoenix.
Government
Found callow
Hazardous house
of rules and regulations
peopled by those
who's star is control.
Callow soulless
Honorlost and mean.
Business
The world of
dimes,
driving wheels of product,
mass though
space.
You need
something on your plate
at the end.
copyright pace
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:02:45 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: cancership or just boring bile
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> One of the
interesting observations for me is the fear and loathing that
> beat
literature and beatophiles seem to bring out.
I have to say i have
> enjoyed the
poetry posting that have been made but fear that they may
> not be all be
actually beat. yet i am not a great one
to know right off
> what is
beat.
> Phil seems
to think that any curtailing of his emotional tantrums is
> somehow
censorship. well here is a little story on me.
when i am
> nervous or
have done something stupid i have a tendancy to go on and
> compound the
hell. once at a party things got weird and i got to
>
motormouthing it. wsb turned to me and with a great smile said shut up.
> it was the
perfect thing to say , it restored interest to the party and
> no one in
their right mind thought it was censorship. More air quality
> control.
> So if i like
beat literature and read it all the time is the provincial
> poetry i
write somehow beat.
> you judge.
>
> Cowgirl
blues
>
> The
castrating cow from wellman county
>
> A young calf
called Emily Ann
> found a
skirt hanging on the fence
> next to the
coyote skulls and hawk wings,
> she puts it
on over her horns.
> It's a magical skirt transforming her into a
cowgirl.
>
> She is a
sweet looking thing,
> wide hips
and long lashes,
> She heads
east along the river
>
tromping through elkins prairie
> she eyes the
bulls that team along the river.
>
> She sways
her thighs and
> with a
bawling voice says
> Those city
slicker gals, all they do is
> they open up
and just let them at it..
> Well I aint
that way.
>
> She leans,
leans on a young wild bull,
> she leads
him away with tales of corn.
> She uses the
name ann van
> She eyes
that bull like a tit,
> She rolls
her eyes and r's and says
>
> those city
gals, they just open their legs
> and just let
them at it,
> I aint that
way,
> I let them
because I'm a good cow girl.
>
> Now I am a
wild cow girl,
> I let them,
and Then
> I cross my
knees and it's over.
> I steer them
to me
> I ain't like
those city gals.
>
> May 31, 1997
>
> The candor
bird
> She had hair
like sunshine and summer.
> In front of
the brick and stone house
> stood dried
catfish heads,
> perched on
each fence post
> sentinels of
naked bone.
>
> Her youth
was lean and hungry
> striding
across continents.
> Her music
the words of poets
> in barns and
on blankets.
> She rhymed
colors and verbs.
>
> She flew in
and out of the
> phoenix
flames, pulling out
> long red
embers,
> taking them
into her
> until she
glowed like a star.
>
> Her heart
turned warm,
> No
protection left,
> her tongue
melted,
> Vomiting
coals, she gave birth
> and lived in
the phoenix.
>
> Government
> Found callow
> Hazardous
house of rules and regulations
> peopled by
those who's star is control.
> Callow
soulless Honorlost and mean.
>
> Business
> The world of
dimes,
> driving wheels of product,
> mass though
space.
> You need
something on your plate
> at the end.
>
> copyright
pace
that one woke me up. i swear.
i was asleep for an hour or more am
still too asleep
to type well. have to fix every other
letter.
i love the b.b.
story and the "shut up".
i'd like a nice
poster to hang on my wall with a smiling b.b. and the
words "shut
up" in big print.
james - the thing
you were asking about burroughs gun? it
seems that it
would probably be
a b.b. gun. hah ahahahahahahaah
i'm going back to
leop sleep i hope.
night,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:06:07 -0400
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From: Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Music...
At 04:05 AM
5/30/97 -0500, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>On Sat, 24
May 1997, MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:
>
>> I agree
with mc, the sound of Jack's voice has given me a much greater sense
> of
>> his rhythm
when I read his books. Not all writers have Jack's great
ability or
>>
wonderful voice for reading but we are lucky to have tapes of Jack. I highly
>> recomend
to all beginning readers of Kerouac to grab a tape of Jack reading
>> from his
own work, nothing like it.
>
>I've always
been sorta puzzled by this. I've had several friends I showed
>some
Burroughs stuff to, and they were completely indifferent to
>it--until I
played a WSB recording to them, when they were suddenly
>ROTFL. But it
seems to me, if it's funny on the recording, it's funny on
>the page
too....can't you hear the words in your head when you read?
>
>One of the
most significant things about Kerouac's writing, IMHO, is its
>rhythm and
tempo, which often is so forceful that you can just hear it
>singing right
from the page. I was actually disappointed the first time I
>heard the
recordings....now, I love to listen to them, but I don't think
>they really
add anything to what's already there on paper and which can
>be recreated
in your own head.
>
>In fact,
having to take a breath sometimes interrupts a rhythm that may be
>distinctive
to writing....esp. long passages written without punctuation
>sometimes
seem like they ought to form one uninterrupted phrase, which it
>is not
possible to talk through in one breath. This perhaps makes a sort
>of disruption
between writing and speaking, but perhaps not between the
>writing and
music--there is such a thing, when playing a horn, as
>circular
breathing, i.e., breathing in thru the nose while blowing out
>thru the
mouth, and by means of which you can hold a note indefinitely.
>But I never
heard of circular talking.
>
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
Oh Man, I think
there is absoluteley nothing NOTHING better than Jack
reading "I
think of Dean Moriarty, I even think of old Dean Moriarty the
father we never
found. I think of Dean Moriarty, I think
of Dean
Mor-EE-AH-TEE." Jack reads with such an amazing grasp of the
BEAT. He's
got rhythym all
right. Now whenever i read Jack its just
that much more
powerful because
i can hear him talking to me. I even
appreciate it more
after listening
to the new Kerouac CD. Damn, all these
people with great
rhythm: Michael Stype, Patti Smith, Eddie Vedder, but
none of them can
bring the words
alive like Jack can. I dont know if its
because they didnt
write it or what,
but i find it absolutely amazing that none of these great
musicians have
control of the words like Jack does.
I don't know Jeff,
maybe you've just naturally got the rythym (lucky s.o.b),
but for me at
least, Jack really helps me feel the words when he reads aloud.
I do agree with
the idea about the continuity of the mind that speaking
disrupts, but
didn't jack mold his prose around this.
He did say that he
just blew his
sentences until he had to take a breath and then ended them
(or something to
that effect). I wonder if it would be
possible to
"circular
talk."
Breath in through
the nose and keep on talking. Hmmm...i
got a few
relatives who
would love to get their hands on that secret at my expense.
just some late
night thoughts.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:06:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Music...
>Two summers
ago I read _Visions of Cody_ with (mostly) Parker and Billie
>Holliday on,
sipping a beer, and turned off the air conditioning and sat
>outside of
the open door in the heat and humidity of the 2am southern night.
>This might
seem silly at times, but it did seem to create an atmosphere
>that enhanced
the reading....
YES. Jack MUST be read outdoors. or in a car traveling. or a bus.
or a
train. I remember reading _Big Sur_ on a ferry to
alaska at 3 in the
morning and i was
sitting by the railing looking out into the water which
wasn't there and
all i saw was black--pure complete black.
nothing
separating the
water from the sky and i really dug all of Jack's comments
about the void
and the immensity of it and i thought with just one jump i
could dissapear
into the blackness forever. I really
spooked myself out
(was completely
alone) and had to grasp the railing tightly as i walked back
to my tent.
I've shared some
great times with Jack and nature at the same time. It's
weird because at
times i think it's much easier to read inside--you get
distracted much
less and can read more and sometimes it seems easier to lose
yourself in the
novel when you're locked up in your room.
But i will always
prefer reading
outside. Sure you'll get distracted, but
eventually the
sights and sounds
of your environment will begin to blend with the sights
and sounds in the
novel and soon you lose all ability to distinguish between
the two and you
create a new novel that is even more powerful and personal
than the one that
you are reading.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:23:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Natalie Foster
<nfoster@SOUTHWIND.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in the Top 40
Levi Asher used
to have a whole section of musical influences pertaining =
to the Beats in
Literary Kicks. Things like Steely Dan's name from WB =
and many others.
Some really obscure. I'm sure it is still there.
Oh, one of my
favorites is a THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS song that begins with =
"I saw the
best minds of my generation..." and talks about censorship " =
I should be
allowed to hang my poster" or something.=20
I just remember
that there were literally hundreds of different =
refrences in
Kicks and that I was quite amazed.
----------
From: Diane M. Homza[SMTP:ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu]
Sent: Friday, May 30, 1997 5:16 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L
Subject: Kerouac in the Top 40
Reply to message
from e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU of Thu, 29 May
>
>>
>> andrew,
what is 10,000 Maniacs? They do a song entitled Jack Kerouac.
>>
>
> 10,000 Maniacs broke up several years
ago. It's more likely to =
be
>Morphine, the three-man, sax-bass-drums combo, from the Joy, Kicks
>CD.
There's the
10,000 Maniacs song, the Morphine song...anyone know of any
other songs
referring to the Beats?
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:39:13 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Music...
At 11:29 PM
5/30/97 -0400, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>How about
Kurt Vonnegut and light-hearted polka?
>
>Bruce
hmmm...i just had
an epiphany! My favorite Polka song is so perfectly made
for Jack
kerouac. And all this time ive never
realized this. ha. lyrics:
In heaven there is no beer
That's h-why we drink it here
And when we are gone from here
Our friends will be drinking all the
beer.
it's by Li'l
Wally. I forget what the name of it is
but those are the only
lyrics.
god, i gotta go
to bed
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:06:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Ginsberg memorial
Okay. no one said that they were at the concert so
im gonna tel you all
about it.
It was
AMAZING. First of all, many Tibetan
Buddhists came out and chanted a
prayer and it was
very beautiful and then a friend of Allen's read the
Kaddish and some
other stuff.
Then a girl sang
"Amazing Grace"
Then Anne Waldman
read. She's awesome.
Then the poetry
contest winner (coincidentally a friend of Allen's) read.
Then a good
friend of Allen's read "On Fame and Death" and "Gone gone
gone"
(another poem
allen wrote on his deathbed. yuck, dont
like that word)
Then natalie
merchant came out (YAY!!) and spoke a
little about allen. she
said "well,
a few years a go I made the poet's cardinal sin. I used a word
only because it
rymed. The word was
"jaded." The song was
"Hey Jack
Kerouac."
" So she goes on to say that she
eventually met allen and
realized he was
not jaded at all but before she met him he set her a copy of
_Howl_ Inscribed within:
"Jaded? Hardly."
With a drawing of
an "erect penis ejaculating triumphantly" (Natalie's words)
So she dedicated
the first song to allen. it was a song
she had just
written a week a
go, and mind you, i am a BIG 10,000 Maniacs and Natalie
merchant fan, but
the song was the most beautiful song ive heard come from
this wonderful
woman's lips. Next she played
"These are Days" and then
"Wonder."
Patti Smith came
on next and said many kind words about Allen and actually
turned the
footnote to Howl into a song which was great.
After the show my
brother and i hung outside trying to talk to natalie
merchant. she finally came out and all the people
hounded her for pictures
and
autographs. I was going to ask her to
sign my copy of Howl but then i
thought that was
almost sacreligious and autographs are kinda stupid anyway.
So as she was
leaving i walked up to her and thanked her for clearing up the
whole jaded
business and i told her that it was her song "Hey Jack kerouac"
that originally
turned me on to the Beats (it did), and you could really see
her eyes light up
and she got happy and just started talking about allen and
said sometimes he
would say "Hey, I'm famous. natalie
merchant wrote a song
about
me." I forgot most of the rest of
the stuff she said cause i was so
damn nervous and
i was in such awe standing their talking to Natalie. it
was a great
night.
and then after
the show my brother and i smoked a little wacky tobaccy and
wandered around
Ann Arbor in the rain, splashing in fountains and just
acting
childish. it was such a great night
until we got pulled over by cops
and they wanted
to see my license and our registration which was in the
glovebox along
with some other stuff that they didnt want to see (Damn, i am
so stupid to put
stuff like that in the glovebox). So i
leaned over and
quickly opened
the box and kinda his the pipe and the bag with my hand and
dug under all the
maps and stuff and grabbed the registration.
Cop asked us
what we were in
Ann Arbor for and i told him we had just gone to the Allen
Ginsberg tribute
and at the time i thought "DOH, i shouldn't have told him
that. Now they'll surely give us
trouble." i could hear him saying
"OH, so
you're one of
those Beat folks. Please step out of the
car." And they
started giving me
trouble about not having shoes on and i thought we were in
for it. But luckily they let us go with only a
warning. Must've been the
spirit of Allen
protecting us from the evil Moloch.
im babbling. good night.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:28:45 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Minneapolis and the Beats
Hello Antoine,
I still play a
lot of slide guitar on a Circa, 1937, Dobro and a '31
National Steel
guitar. If picking, I play a J-51 Gibson Flat-top and
for strumming
open tunings, a Guild 12 string. I'm back playing after
a 17 year
absence. Unfortunately, I took a knife wound thru my left
hand outside of a
Southside club in Chicago. After all these dormant
years (I had no
feeling in my hand) from nerve damage, I am now happy
to report that
some feeling has returned=97and I'm back on the stage! No
recordings=97yet,
but I'll keep you posted. In answer to the beat
influence in the
TC area way-back-when, I would have to say yes. As a
kid, I packed up
and ran away with Kenneth Patchen's Love Poems (City
Lights edition)
in my guitar case. In the middle '60's you could still
rent one-dollar a
night hotel rooms downtown. I was fortunate enough
to get a room
across from an old & rare book shop on the corner of 12 th
& Nicollet.
That's where I discovered the beats and from the local
coffeehouse
crowds I picked-up on Ginsberg whom I met in '72 (Madison,
WI)=97but that's
another story. In answer to reading and music gigs com-
bined, yes, they
were still happening but not as much I'm told. Tony
Glover was real
hip to the scene and a helluva good harp player. I can
play harp=97but
that cat would bury me! I dedicated my book After Hours
(poems) to Leo
Kottke and a flask of whiskey found outside the Scholar
on a cold October
night in '68. Now that the book is out of print, I
just now realized
that Leo never got a copy. The readings and music
are back and it
feels pretty good. The Turf Club in St. Paul, has a=20
Cabaret scene.
Hell, I can be playing slide while a lady juggles
machetes=97the
scene is wild and damn near anything goes.=20
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:47:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Words
In-Reply-To:
<199705301742.KAA04132@freya.van.hookup.net>
and a loverly
bunch of words that is, james william
great tour de
force
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:47:18 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: and the beat(ing) goes
on.(nicosia/chaput)
In-Reply-To:
<199705310017.RAA10975@italy.it.earthlink.net>
just when i
thought it was safe to tell beat-l refugees out there, fingers
virtually
gripping side of virtual life boats.....ready to call all outs in
free, and again
the posts begin
arrrhhhhgggghhhhhhhh!
mc
and all the
SHOUTING in the caps, giving me a
headache.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:47:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.16.19970531040917.1ad77ae6@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
many many thanks,
matt
this was
wonderful to wake up to this morning.
mc
ps whose leitha?
or,
thanks, leitha!
who the hell's
matt?
mornng came
earlier than ussual today...
and i'm outta
coffee
(whine)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:21:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: this beat list
In a message
dated 97-05-30 23:16:27 EDT, you write:
<<
synapses twist through backyard memory
tangled and ending on empty >>
this is how i
would say it if you care....hope you don't mind the editing,
tell me if it
bothers you
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:44:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cancership or just boring bile
In a message
dated 97-05-31 03:08:52 EDT, you write:
<<
One of the interesting observations for me is
the fear and loathing that
beat literature and beatophiles seem to bring
out. I have to say i have
enjoyed the poetry posting that have been made
but fear that they may
not be all be actually beat. yet i am not a great one to know right off
what is beat. >>
Not that I'm an
expert, but as far as i can tell the thing that was most
important to the
beats was experimentation. So if you
experiment and once in
a while you like
what turns up and you keep it, and you believe in their
general
philosophy of art and writing, that is a very beat M.O.
However, that is
only my opinion, and i am not a Believer that there is a
unique thing
called "beat" that only belongs to 4 or 5 people, or however
many beats there
are supposed to be. Those peoples'
styles are very
different and can
also blur together with other poets from earlier and later
times.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:41:04 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: link page
If anyone is
interested, I have my beat link page under construction.
It is infantile
in status, but is up nonetheless. I am trying out some
new editors, Hot
Metal Pro and HomeSite. But it looks
like I may break
down and
reinstall and use Hot Dog. It is better
than I think it is.
Peace,
Beat as You Want
to Beat is the link off the url below.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:47:41 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
In a message
dated 97-05-31 06:53:42 EDT, you write:
<<
"Everyone takes the limits of his own
vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
>>
Schopenhauer
believed that women had a natural power of dissimulation and
that's why men
have beards.....to hide their facial features because without
them they're such
bad liars. At least that's what i got
out of his book.
Did i get it wrong?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:56:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP SUCKS THE BIG ONE
In a message
dated 97-05-31 02:33:11 EDT, you write:
<< I ask you- How
long did your father jerk off in the flower
pot to raise a blooming idiot
like you? You know what Gerry I don't give a
fiddler's fuck if I get thrown
off the list cause listening to you makes me
sick anyway. Take those rules
about censorship print it out, roll it into a
ball and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.
A person can only take so much. UNCENSORED IN
LOWELL - Phil Chaput
>>
Why don't you too
faggots e-mail each other instead of bombarding us innocent
listees with your
petty drivel? Why do you, Phil, live in such a godforsaken
shithole as
Lowell mass.? Why bother with this list
if all you can do is
yell? why not just un-subscribe? Is your life so
dull that you need the
internet to get
your aggressions out? Why don't you just ignore or delete
Gerry's messages
and vice versa if you don't like him?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:05:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Music...
Maya Gorton
wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-05-31 06:53:42 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> "Everyone takes the limits of his own
vision
> for the limits of the world."
>
> Arthur
Schopenhauer
> >>
> Schopenhauer
believed that women had a natural power of dissimulation
> and
> that's why
men have beards.....to hide their facial features because
> without
> them they're
such bad liars. At least that's what i
got out of his
> book.
> Did i get it wrong?
Never read Schopy, but you post Maya has me
ROTFLMAO. But, personally,
I think men are
better liars than you give them credit for here. Well,
I was lying but
can you tell which part is the lie and which is the
truth. So come to think of it, email is as good as a
beard, only
better.
Peace,
:-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:14:56 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Music...
In a message
dated 97-05-31 09:11:39 EDT, you write:
<<
Never read Schopy, but you post Maya has me
ROTFLMAO. But, personally,
I think men are better liars than you give
them credit for here. Well,
I was lying but can you tell which part is the
lie and which is the
truth.
So come to think of it, email is as good as a beard, only
better.
>>
I know..you''re
not REALLY rotflmao! Right? e-mail is
better than a beard
for sure...i've
been told so many unsolicited tall tales already on the
internet. stories of murder and drug money, glamour and
wishful fame.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:22:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: this beat list
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-05-30 23:16:27 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> synapses twist through backyard memory
> tangled and ending on empty >>
>
> this is how
i would say it if you care....hope you don't mind the editing,
> tell me if
it bothers you
if it was me i
don't recall what i typed in the first place.
synapses twisted
makes sense but not only twisting going on i wish
medicare covered
for a pet-scan ...:)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:40:16 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
May 31, 1997
Maya Gorton
writes:
>Why don't you
too faggots e-mail each other instead of bombarding us innocent
>listees with
your petty drivel?
Dear Maya,
I have been happily married to my
second wife (a woman) for five years.
I don't care to exchange libelous
exchanges with Mr. Chaput on or
off the list.
Mr. Gargan and several others, including
myself, have tried very
hard to get the
dialogue on this List back within legal and civilized
parameters, i.e.,
to get rid of the libel, slander, defamation, and printing
of people's
private letters, which is also illegal.
Every time we do, Mr. Chaput or one of
his allies, like Mr. Maher,
comes back with a
tirade of verbal abuse and verbal assault against me--the
same tactics, by
the way, that were used to try to shut down Brad Parker and
his independent
Kerouac events in Lowell.
At the same time, Mr. Chaput and a few
others have been quick to
point their
finger at me as the person who is destroying the Beat-List.
The reality is: MR. CHAPUT AND HIS
COHORTS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
ENDANGERING THIS
LIST.
They are putting me in the untenable
position of 1) either having to
leave the list
myself; or 2) take legal action against Brooklyn College and
the Beat-List for
distributing this libelous material--NEITHER OF WHICH I
WANT TO DO.
I.e., either I allow the bullies to win
yet another victory (like
the victory they
won when they dragged a 100-pound invalid, Jan Kerouac, out
of the Jack
Kerouac Conference at NYU) or I do possible harm to the Beat
forum which all
of you enjoy so much.
I do not like being put in this
position. And I suggest if you
really care about
the Beat-List--all of you--that you tell Mr. Chaput and
Mr. Maher now
that you want them TO IMMEDIATELY STOP CREATING THIS DANGEROUS
DILEMMA.
You might ask yourself, why are they
doing this?
As you say, if they don't like my
messages, they can simply delete
them. I am not writing anything that is a verbal
assault on their career,
their personal
life, etc., as they are doing to me.
The truth is, I believe, that they (for
certain very definite
political
reasons) cannot stand the idea that Gerald Nicosia is on the Beat
List and able to
speak to 200 Beat fans and scholars in a quiet, reasonable
forum.
So they have determined to get me off
in any way they can--and the
only way they
know how is to act as bullies. It is the
way that has worked
for them so
far. But I am determined it is not going
to work for them this
time.
Thanks for listening.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:58:09 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: Lowell Kerouac Festival
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc
P.O. Box 1111,
Lowell, MA 01853
10th ANNUAL
FESTIVAL CELEBRATES JACK KEROUAC'S VISION OF LOWELL
FOR IMMEDIATE
RELEASE PRESS CONTACT:
MAY 27, 1997 Mark Hemenway:
Day:
508-475-9090 ext 1239
Evening: 508-458-1721
PUBLIC
INQUIRIES:
1-800-443-3332
508-458-1721
(Lowell, MA) The
10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will take
place 2- 5 October
in Lowell, MA. This year's theme will be Kerouac
Celebrates
Lowell. We will celebrate and explore the real and the mythic
Lowell.,
Massachusetts that Kerouac brought to life in his writing.
The people and
places of Lowell are central to Kerouac's work. Five of his
novels describe
his childhood and youth in the city, and images and
references to his
hometown appear in virtually every one of his works. His
descriptions of
Lowell are remarkable for their beauty, power and
timelessness.
Through them, millions of readers have come to know Lowell
as a universal
hometown. Join us as we walk the wrinkly tar sidewalks and
redbrick alleys
that Jack Kerouac wrote about in his novels and poetry.
Full Press
Release Attached
begin 666
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M;F,@-3`X+30U."TQ-S(Q+B`-"@T**BHJ14Y$*BHJ#0HQ,'1H($%N;G5A;"!,
M;W=E;&P@0V5L96)R871E<R!+97)O=6%C(2`)"0D)4&%G92``#0H-"DU/4D4N
(+BX-"@T*#0IS
`
end
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:50:49 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs collection
In case anyone is
interested (for future reference), the special collections
dept at Ohio
State now has the biggest collection of Burroughs material in the
US. James
Grauerholtz, secretary to WSB is in town, dropping off a truckload of
boxes (Maya, very
little to do with anthropology). We had dinner last night
along with John
Giorno, David Ohle and John Geiger who is working on a
biography of
Brion Gysin. WSB is doing fine at the moment, John Giorno is
slated to be in
Louiseville this September (did you get him to come Ron?) and
is a great
performer if you have never seen him. Finally, the Burroughs
collection should
be available for use as soon as it is cataloged and sorted
which might take
2 or three more months (at least).
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:52:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
patricia wrote,
great news, i
love it being in the midwest. what was for dinner.
MORE OXY THAN
MORON wrote:
>
> In case
anyone is interested (for future reference), the special collections
> dept at Ohio
State now has the biggest collection of Burroughs material in the
> US. James
Grauerholtz, secretary to WSB is in town, dropping off a truckload
of
> boxes (Maya,
very little to do with anthropology). We had dinner last night
> along with
John Giorno, David Ohle and John Geiger who is working on a
> biography of
Brion Gysin. WSB is doing fine at the moment, John Giorno is
> slated to be
in Louiseville this September (did you get him to come Ron?) and
> is a great
performer if you have never seen him. Finally, the Burroughs
> collection
should be available for use as soon as it is cataloged and sorted
> which might
take 2 or three more months (at least).
>
> Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:58:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Gerald Nicosia
Please stay on
the list, you showed strength, purpose and honor with
your recent
postings. I know it is hard to pass up
the response or the
aside when you
know that much that you love and care about is cheapened
or slandered but
oppinions of substance make this listing worthwhile,
you are valuable
to me.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:15:47 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Pulp Fiction
Sean,
I actually happen to know, or believe that
I know, what was in the
briefcase in Pulp
Fiction. The topic came up on another
list to which I belong.
A guy who had a
friend who interviewed Tarantino (<--this is why I "believe"
that I
know") said that he asked Tarantino the same question. First I
should mention
that I love the movie and have seen it more times than I'd
care to
admit. I had noticed that the
combination for the briefcase was
'666' and that
everyone who got to look at it was mesmerized and seemed to
know what it
was: "Is that what I think it
is?". Anyway, it turns out that
the briefcase
holds the soul of the character Ving Rhames plays. Remember
all those scenes
with him having a Band-Aid on the back of his head?
Apparently it's
mentioned in the Bible somewhere that that's where the Devil
takes your soul
from. So you don't have to feel bad when
John Travolta and
Samuel L. Jackson
shoot up those kids in that appartment because they're
only killing
Satan's minions and I think that's justifiable homicide in most
states. Also, remember the theological discussion
Jackson and Travolta have
over "divine
intervention"? Well Jackson was
right.
An interesting side note: In Malaysia they apparently re-edited the
film to try to
create a linear narrative because they thought movie-goers
would feel ripped
off otherwise.
James M.
P.S. Don't know how this is beat. Apologies to everyone who isn't interested.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:26:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>
Subject: test only
test only
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:31:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>
Subject: test
test
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:39:42 +0000
Reply-To: annie@rt66.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: annie shank <annie@RT66.COM>
Organization: you
can't be serious
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Hey, I just got
here. And I was hoping to find further
discourse of the
kind I enjoyed
with Lee Bartlett for an entire semester just past. And
what do I find?
Usenet
Get a grip,
folks. Can we talk about the literature
for a change? Can
we try fitting it
against other things, and talking about the part that
just won't fit
and insists on slopping over the edges?
I feel like I've
walked in on a stock rehearsal of "Who's Afraid of
Virginia
Woolf".....
annie
annie@rt66.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:39:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Gerald Nicosia
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
> Please stay
on the list, you showed strength, purpose and honor with
> your recent
postings. I know it is hard to pass up
the response or
> the
> aside when
you know that much that you love and care about is
> cheapened
> or slandered
but oppinions of substance make this listing worthwhile,
> you are
valuable to me.
> patricia
ditto, here, but I think you can let it
slide. It eventually will get
tiresome for
those who attack you and your work.
To the list, if
you have attacks to make on Gerry, or you want to say
something to him
about what a slime he is, then say it to him, not on
the list.
To Gerry:
Let it slide, I
have to shake my head in wonder each time I see someone
make these
bizarre statements about you. Noone on
the list, that I have
seen, other than
about three or so, seems to place any creedence in
these posts.
To Phil:
Some of your
posts are very good and I appreciate them.
I do not want
you to leave the
list or get kicked off. But you only
harm yourself
every time you do
it, why as Jerry Jeff Walker said want to "Piss in the
wind, cause then
it's blowing on all your friends."
Whatever effect
you desire, it is personal, and if you are right, you
are losing the
opportunity to prove it as you embarrass yourself with
such undignified
comments.
Peace, and I have
begun revisions and revisions of my web site, you all
are invited.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:50:43 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Be-Bop Do-Wap-Wap
To everyone who
provided me with info on Beat-related songs:
thank you so
much! And yes, i did check out Levi's sight; I'm
printing off the 23 pages
of music-related
info right now. I had this hair-brained
idea to put
together my own
private collection of Beat-inspired songs during my lazy
hazy (yeah,
right!) days of summer; looks like I may have enough for my own
box-set. Now that would be a way to pay for grad
school...
If anyone's
interested in my progress, ask & I'll let you know how it goes.
:)
Diane.
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:15:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cosmic Baseball Association
<cosmic@CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Current subscribers
Hello Fred,
Thanks for the
post. Is this a record?
Regards,
Andrew Lampert
cosmic@clark.net
>As of this
moment (9:36am EDT, May 30) there are 248 subscribers to
>beat-l.
>
>fred
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:51:19 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
May 31,
1997
Annie Shank
writes:
>Hey, I just
got here. And I was hoping to find
further discourse of the
>kind I
enjoyed with Lee Bartlett for an entire semester just past...
... Can we talk about the literature for a
change?
Annie,
I couldn't agree with you more. But do you want to belong to a
Beat-List where a
gang of 2 or 3 bullies can force anyone off the list,
whenever they so
choose, just by applying an endless, unchecked stream of
verbal abuse to
that targeted person?
There's been a lot of hoo-ha about free
speech and censorship in Mr.
Chaput's past few
posts. There is nothing in the U.S.
Constitution that
guarantees one
person the right to verbally abuse and/or verbally damage
another
person. To claim that one has the right
to libel and verbally
assault another
person ("Hey, you dirty Jew!"
"Hey, you dirty nigger!"
"Hey, you
dirty wop!") is a lot closer to fascism than the democracy I grew
up learning
about.
I want to talk about literature too,
but I also want a Beat-List
where I'm free to
speak sound, rational, level-headed opinions--even if it's
about the Kerouac
Estate--without two or three guys jumping at me with
vicious verbal
attacks on my career, my personal life, my income, and
anything else
they can think of.
Don't you want that too?
Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:33:05 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: All things
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>>John
Hasbrouck writes:
>> "All things considered, I think
the Beat-L list is far more
>>interesting
now than it has been at any time during the last two years or so
...."
> John,
> You mean I didn't murder the Beat-List? I'm crushed.
> Yours in failure,
> Gerald Nicosia
Gerry,
On the contrary -
all issues, flames and partisanship aside - you, Mr.
Nicosia, in your
own inimitable and fabulously impudent way, have
resuscitated and
resurrected this list from a deathlike and dronish
blandness
consisting of <Is So-and-So Beat?>, <What Should I Read?> and
<Who's The
Greatest POvErT Of The 20th Century?>-type posts, all of
which are
eminently deletable. Any Devoted Reader Of Books who can't
deal with the
stench of dirty laundry coming from a Classic Legal
Dispute over a
great literary estate is no better than Mr. Sampas trying
to keep the world
from knowing that Kerouac sucked cock and drowned in
booze.
I hope this rant
doesn't kill my chances of being elected LurkMeister.
John Hasbrouck,
BiblioFool
Chicago
P.S. Y'all read
<The Scandal of Ulysses>?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:33:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Posey
- Ode to NJ
As everyone is
posting their Posey this week and there's been discussion
about
loving/hating New York I thought I'd drop one on you I wrote in 1990
after taking a
one year temporary assignment to the East.
I worked in NY and
lived in NJ where
we had a very pleasant stay. Here is what I saw:
ODE TO NJ
With your smoke
stacked belchers by the river
And your drivers
in cars nasty
And forever
honking tho nowhere near as bad
As them New
Yorkers cross river
With your tiny
towns and full treed spaces
And two lane
roads where little animals
Try to cross and
get nailed
By furious
drivers too lazy to swerve
I watch you New
Jersey
I watch and I
listen and I learn
As only a
dispassionate temporary citizen
Can do
I watch you New
Jersey
As your
inhabitants claw at one another
And snipe at one
another
And want to screw
one another
But don't because
of AIDS
I watch as
pitiful old people
Take their
savings to AC casinos
Only to come home
drunk and stupid
On the bus
I watch as those
haughty New Yorkers
Try to impress
upon you
How superior they
are to you
And you believe
them
I watch
As every one of
your kids
Has an angle and
has a plan
And nothing comes
to nothing
What is it with
you New Jersey?
Are you really
the doormat
Of the Tri-State
area
Or the doormat of
America instead?
Do you represent
All that is good
and bad
In the
country? The world?
In Life?
America needs you
New Jersey
America needs a
place that will take all the shit
And live in the
squalor
And keep on
smiling
Keep on smiling
New Jersey
What care you
that they laugh at you
And they snort at
you
And look down
their noses at you
What care you
that you're always trying
And always
hustling
Only to be left
lying supine
Creamed on
Like a teenage
princess of the night
Every whore has
her reasons
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:53:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Posey - Ode to NJ
Dear Jerry:
>From the
great state of New Jersey -- I salute you (having lived here -- can
you be sure of my
meaning and manner of my salute????)
Truly, the home
of Walt Whitman and of Allen Ginsberg (to name only two --
but the two whose
cadence and rhythm you seem to have captured very well in
your "Ode to
NJ") has found a new champion -- why did you omit the "big hair"
of which we are
also so very proud???
NOW - SHIFTING
GEARS--
Wish you could
join us for the Allen memorial in Paterson on June 8th --- a
coup after all of
the anti-Allen hype that flowed from politicos following
his death when
such a memorial was proposed. Sometimes
right triumphs.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:14:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg tribute in new Shambhala Sun
There's a great
tribute to AG in the new (July 97) issue
of Shambhala Sun. Check it out folx. Also, one in the
new issue of
Tricyclic.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:30:58 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Delta
Hello John,
Leo is a real
nice guy and it's good to hear that you're a Bukka
White fan. I met
Bukka in Cleveland, MS, a number of years ago and
could that man
play a slide-pure fire. The guy I'm referring to is
Catfish McDaris
the poet and storyteller. He's got an excellent
read out from
Angelflesh Press, called "Catfish In The Pecos."
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:39:06 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg tribute in new Shambhala Sun
Hmm, sent this
and got a notice I'm not subscribed
(directly after I
downloaded my beat-l mail), so I'll
try again, in
case it is lost in the void.
The new issue
(July 97) of Shambhala Sun has a
great AG tribute
in it (quite lengthy). Check it out
folx.
Also, the new
Tricyclic does as well (very short though).
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:20:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Cranial Guitar
In-Reply-To: <338FEF4B.102C@bitstream.net>
True to the virus
that is my word, I put on my Birkenstocks (pale feet,
unglued soles at
the tips) this Sat. morn and went to the Hungry Mind,
there got the
only copy of Cranial Guitar.
1. Scholarly question: I had not heard of the publication until the
past
few days on the
BList, and the copyright date says 1996.
Has the book been
out for months,
or just delayed in release and distribution?
If out for
long, why no
previous reference on the BList?
"ENGPOP,
ENGPOP, BOP, PLOLO, PLOLO, BOP, BOP."
Bob Kauffmann,
"Crootey Songo"
Great! Am loooking forward to loving the book (got
Solitudes Crowded with
Loneliness long
ago at City Lights, & have always loved the Frank O'Hara
type title, Golden
Sardine--just great with silver crackers and beer).
Thanks to all
who've helped keep this solitary Beat strumming.
2. Scholarly (M. A.--in English!) question: Gerry Nicosia (I love you,
man.), who chose
the title for these Selected Poems you edited--you,
Kauffmann,
who? Why, beyond the obvious, etc.?
Then I went
across the hall to The Table of Contents to sip and browse
$1.25
plus .09 tax
FRESH ROASTED
COFFEE
(A BOTTOMLESS MUG
OF OUR OWN BLEND)
when what to my
wondering eyes these lines:
I dreamed I went
to John Mitchell's poetry party
in my maidenform
brain
Holy! Cow
3. Scholarly question: Who is this interloper, me? (A joke; my poetry
always wears
bras, but I was shocked to discover it had been outted! I
always knew I would
be a famous Beat someday, but should have known it
would not be the
real me.)
I unsubscribe
tomorrow, so please answer scholarly questions soon. (And no
flames, unless
scholarly marshmellows are provided.)
John M.
Also I wrote this
pome on the sack while sitting at the counter.
It's Up To You
Whatever it was I
am
I am happy to be
Even childhood
sores
Butterflies for
several days
Thousands
Just
flapping/black & orange
Wherever they
have gone
I want to go
And be
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:45:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Music...
At 08:47 AM
5/31/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-05-31 06:53:42 EDT, you write:
>
><<
>
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision
> for the limits of the world."
>
> Arthur
Schopenhauer
> >>
>Schopenhauer
believed that women had a natural power of dissimulation and
>that's why
men have beards.....to hide their facial features because without
>them they're
such bad liars. At least that's what i
got out of his book.
> Did i get it
wrong?
>
hmmm...I don't
know. that's my mom's signature file, i
dont really know
Schopenhauer at
all.
but sounds
interesting...
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:09:20 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeanne Vaccaro
<SlugBug747@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Posey - Ode to NJ
Well I also live
in Jersey (my brain's small and my hairs tall). Jersey
really is the
most awful place on earth. I live about 7 minuets from NYC, so
naturally I spend
all my time their, including going to school their. You
forgot to mention
that Springstien wrote about Jersey. The GW Bridge is my
nemesiss. Later.
love(and other
indoor sports)jeanne.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:56:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: Pulp Fiction
thanks
i was very
interested
that makes that
scene so much cooler
again, gratzi
jeremy
----------
: From: James
William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
: To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
: Subject: Pulp
Fiction
: Date: Saturday,
May 31, 1997 11:15 AM
:
: Sean,
: I actually happen to know, or believe
that I know, what was in the
: briefcase in
Pulp Fiction. The topic came up on
another list to which I
belong.
: A guy who had a
friend who interviewed Tarantino (<--this is why I
"believe"
: that I
know") said that he asked Tarantino the same question. First I
: should mention
that I love the movie and have seen it more times than I'd
: care to
admit. I had noticed that the
combination for the briefcase was
: '666' and that
everyone who got to look at it was mesmerized and seemed
to
: know what it
was: "Is that what I think it
is?". Anyway, it turns out
that
: the briefcase
holds the soul of the character Ving Rhames plays.
Remember
: all those
scenes with him having a Band-Aid on the back of his head?
: Apparently it's
mentioned in the Bible somewhere that that's where the
Devil
: takes your soul
from. So you don't have to feel bad when
John Travolta
and
: Samuel L.
Jackson shoot up those kids in that appartment because they're
: only killing
Satan's minions and I think that's justifiable homicide in
most
: states. Also, remember the theological discussion
Jackson and Travolta
have
: over "divine
intervention"? Well Jackson was
right.
: An interesting side note: In Malaysia they apparently re-edited the
: film to try to
create a linear narrative because they thought movie-goers
: would feel
ripped off otherwise.
: James M.
: P.S. Don't know how this is beat. Apologies to everyone who isn't
interested.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:36:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Posey - Ode to NJ
RE: Jeanne Vaccaro's mention of Springsteen also
writing about NJ -- true --
but Jerry's C.'s
cadences don't match his, so despite my deep and desperate
love for
BRUUUUUUUCE (who retains his Rumson mansion, but spends too many
months in his
L.A. mansion -- complete with separate cottage for nanny and
little
Springsteen's), he seemed "unmentionable."
However -- the
fantastic PATERSON - written by Wm. Carlos Wms. - fits in.
But Philip Roth (Jersey Fresh) doesn't), and
so on.
Anyway - I
thought that Jerry C. had the sound.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:47:33 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Posey - Ode to NJ
I mis-spent my
senior year at college listening to Greetings from Asbury Park
and The Wild The
Innocent & The E Street Shuffle. We
danced to Rosalita 'til
dawn many 'a
night! The first date my wife and I had
was to a Bruce concert
in DC. Discovery of JK came a year later.
JC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:57:20 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: jeopardy and them crazy beat-niks
Hello, surprised
no one mentioned this but then again not --
a few nights ago,
on the game show jeopardy, one of the questions was:
(something like)
This author of Howl released a CD entitled Ballad of the
Skeletons in
1996.
answer(response):
Who is Allen Ginsberg?
Eric
personal
recommendation: don't watch jeopardy stoned.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:05:42 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar
At 03:20 PM
5/31/97 -0600, you wrote:
>True to the
virus that is my word, I put on my Birkenstocks (pale feet,
>unglued soles
at the tips) this Sat. morn and went to the Hungry Mind,
>there got the
only copy of Cranial Guitar.
>
>1. Scholarly question: I had not heard of the publication until the
past
>few days on
the BList, and the copyright date says 1996.
Has the book been
>out for
months, or just delayed in release and distribution? If out for
>long, why no
previous reference on the BList?
>
>"ENGPOP,
ENGPOP, BOP, PLOLO, PLOLO, BOP, BOP."
>
>Bob
Kauffmann, "Crootey Songo"
>
>Great! Am loooking forward to loving the book (got
Solitudes Crowded with
>Loneliness
long ago at City Lights, & have always loved the Frank O'Hara
>type title,
Golden Sardine--just great with silver crackers and beer).
>Thanks to all
who've helped keep this solitary Beat strumming.
>
>2. Scholarly (M. A.--in English!) question: Gerry Nicosia (I love you,
>man.), who
chose the title for these Selected Poems you edited--you,
>Kauffmann,
who? Why, beyond the obvious, etc.?
>
>Then I went
across the hall to The Table of Contents to sip and browse
>$1.25
>plus .09 tax
>FRESH ROASTED
COFFEE
>(A BOTTOMLESS
MUG OF OUR OWN BLEND)
>when what to
my wondering eyes these lines:
>
>I dreamed I
went to John Mitchell's poetry party
>in my maidenform
brain
>
>Holy! Cow
>
>3. Scholarly question: Who is this interloper, me? (A joke; my poetry
>always wears
bras, but I was shocked to discover it had been outted! I
>always knew I
would be a famous Beat someday, but should have known it
>would not be
the real me.)
>
>I unsubscribe
tomorrow, so please answer scholarly questions soon. (And no
>flames,
unless scholarly marshmellows are provided.)
>
>John M.
Dear John, May 31, 1997
Eileen Kaufman, Bob's widow, picked out
about six or seven possible
titles from lines
in Bob's poems. Her favorite was
"INTO CRACKLING
BLUENESS,"
which is a Kaufman paraphrase of one of his own favorite poets,
Lorca. But the publisher preferred "CRANIAL
GUITAR," from a poem where Bob
says "My
head is a cranial guitar," etc.
(Forgot which poem.)
Don't know who the John Mitchell was
that Bob refers to--surely one
of the many North
Beach pre-Beatniks of the late 50's, and there were many.
Maybe I'll ask
Eileen next time I see her.
What city do you live in, anyway?
As for no mention of it on the Beat
List, I haven't seen mention of
Ferlinghetti's
latest either--A FAR ROCKAWAY OF THE HEART, which was just
released from New
Directions. I haven't been a big fan of Lawrence's
recent
stuff, last few
years, but this book IS DYNAMITE, THE BEST STUFF HE'S
WRITTEN IN 30-40
YEARS. There's a four-page poem to Ezra
Pound that is ONE
OF THE FINEST
POEMS OLD LARRY HAS EVER PENNED (IMHO).
A few lines:
"At worst an old man's mumbled
jumble
of erudicities and profundities
by turns noble and incoherent
Scatter of rain on a mansard roof
mixed with antique gossip
ancient Tuscan account books
and yesterday's conversations
A garrulous gabble of
crackerbarrel colloquial
cobbled into the typography of poetry
in canti that couldn't possibly be
sung...."
Here's my
favorite Kaufman poem from CRANIAL GUITAR:
"My body is a torn mattress
Disheveled throbbing place
For the comings and goings
Of loveless transients.
The whole of me
Is an unfurnished room
FIlled with dank breath
Escaping in gasps of nowhere.
Before completely objective mirrors
I have shot myself with my eyes,
But death refused my advances.
I have walked on my walls each night
Through strange landscapes in my head.
I have brushed my teeth with orange peel,
Iced with cold blood from the dripping
faucets.
My face is covered with maps of dead
nations;
My hair is littered with drying
ragweed.
Bitter raisins drip from my nostrils
While schools of glowing minnows swim
from my mouth.
The nipples of my breast are
sun-browned cockleburrs;
Long-forgotten Indian tribes fight
battles on my chest
Unaware of the sunken ships rotting in
my stomach.
My legs are charred remains of burned
cypress trees;
My feet are covered with moss from
bayous, flowing across my floor.
I can't go out anymore.
I shall sit on my ceiling.
Would you wear my eyes?"
Tell me that's not grrrreeaaattt
poetry!
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:14:22 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> I couldn't
agree with you more. But do you want to
belong to a
> Beat-List
where a gang of 2 or 3 bullies can force anyone off the list,
> whenever
they so choose, just by applying an endless, unchecked stream of
> verbal abuse
to that targeted person?
> There's been a lot of hoo-ha about
free speech and censorship in Mr.
> Chaput's
past few posts. There is nothing in the
U.S. Constitution that
> guarantees
one person the right to verbally abuse and/or verbally damage
> another
person. To claim that one has the right
to libel and verbally
> assault
another person ("Hey, you dirty Jew!"
"Hey, you dirty nigger!"
> "Hey,
you dirty wop!") is a lot closer to fascism than the democracy I grew
> up learning
about.
> I want to talk about literature too,
but I also want a Beat-List
> where I'm
free to speak sound, rational, level-headed opinions--even if it's
> about the
Kerouac Estate--without two or three guys jumping at me with
> vicious
verbal attacks on my career, my personal life, my income, and
> anything
else they can think of.
> Don't you want that too?
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
No one will ever
kill the beat list because it will refuse to die in the
same way beat
literature refuses to die. What you
don't seem to realize
is that no one
can "verbally damage" you unless "you" let them. No
one can drive
anyone off the list. You can only leave
of your own
free will. I hope you don't. But you have to lighten up a bit. You
should respect
the intelligence of the people on the list.
You don't
have to refute
everything that is said. Most people can
recognize
bullshit when
they see it. Let your book and your
scholarship stand on
their own. How can ignoring someone who calls you names
possibly
damage your
career? In another post, you said you
talked about two
options.
" They are
putting me in the untenable position of 1) either having to
leave the list
myself; or 2) take legal action against Brooklyn College
and
the Beat-List for
distributing this libelous material--NEITHER OF WHICH I
WANT TO DO."
I've got to say
that when I see the words "take legal action against
Brooklyn College
and the Beat-List," it upsets me.
This is a public
forum and the
people at Brooklyn College have been generous in their time
and commitment in
giving the list a home. Why don't you
erase the anger
from your own
posts and only respond in a rational, level-headed way. If
you truly want to
be respected here, stop engaging in the battle.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:47:38 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: the sniveler
well, it's saturday
night, it's sunday morning, & I've still got
a beer, whatever,
so here's some bukowski for you good people, at least
for those of you
who haven't heard it already.
"THE
SNIVELER", charles bukowski
"you're a
sniveler, she said
you snivel when
she doesn't call,
I phone you and
you're shit-faced on wine.
I'm a baby, I
said, then too I can't figure out
how anybody can
live without me.
my god, she said,
you really mean that ?
yes, I said.
oh my god, you're
impossible, you big soft
baby's ass !
suck me off and
maybe I can forget, help me
forget.
you big soft
baby's ass !
I'm sensitive,
yes, and how can anybody live
without me ?
she hung up.
well, I thought,
there's two who can live without me.
there might be
2000, 2 million, 2 million
billion.
it was one of the
most depressing thoughts I'd had
in years.
I went into my
bedroom and stretched out and looked at
the ceiling.
I thought, well,
I can masturbate, I can look at television,
and then there's
suicide.
having already
masturbated twice that day
I had two options
left and
being a big soft
baby's ass I
switched on the
tv."
enjoy life,
Olly R.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Survival of
the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
considered the
idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
Could the Doctor
have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
_______________________________________________________________________________
or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
skink@imrryr.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:47:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Miller <richard@EMF.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
As a relative
newcomer to Beat-L, I have to say how wonderful its been to
discover a bunch
of people who share my passion and interests. At the same
time its been
somewhat like hopping a train where the club car is filled
with boistrous
shouting and at times near fist fights while the rest of us
look on with
varying degress of fascination and horror. Initially I loved
it but now feel
increasingly alarmed by the possibility that a few people
could derail the
entire train. I tend to see the best in people and suspect
that its not
maliciousness so much as overheated emotion and a belief that
"God is on
my side" type of thinking that has gotten us to this dismal
state of personal
attack and name calling. My wish is for the train to stay
on track without
anyone needing to be thrown (or jumping) off board.
Because I support
you, Gerry, in what you're trying to accomplish, I also
want to support
what others have implied or said: bullies have your number
when they can so
easily and predictably get a response by saying "your
mother wears a
mustache." When left alone or not responded to, they are
revealed to be
for what they are. I quite understand that you don't wish to
be slandered but
for all of our sakes, please don't save the village by
destroying it.
Your good name will not be endangered by stepping aside from
taunts and
provocations and in fact will be enhanced. I encourage you to
continue to
resist the temptation to counter attack (grace under fire?) and
to rise above it
and let the flames die down so the real business at hand
can be addressed.
It's not a question (IMHO) of honor but of keeping
presence of mind
and one's eye on the ball. Sorry this first post is so
windy and I hope
it can be taken in the spirit its intended. Richard
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:48:33 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
To Richard and
Diane and others who recently responded to this thread:
Ladies and
Gentlemen I agree with much of what you've said. I am on record
on a number of
occassions as saying I wish Gerry Nicosia would tone things
down sometimes in
his responses. I think he hurts his
cause by answering his
attackers in
kind. Although I have been called
Gerry's "Lackey" and been
accused of
"genuflecting at his feet" I have not to my knowledge been
excommunicated
from the cause of wanting to save Jack's archives because I
sometimes
disagree with it's Champion.
I would like to
point something out, however. It is very
easy to sit on the
sidelines
watching a fight and say, "Isn't that terrible? They should stop
that
fighting. Look at those three bullies
ganging up on that one guy. He
should turn the
other cheek and maybe they'll stop."
I have made my
position known in this situation for quite a while. And while
I try my level
best to be even handed I must admit I have lost my cool a few
times as
well. When Jeffrey Weinberg called me a
"liar" because I had the
"audacity"
to innocently mention a $50,000 raincoat Jeffrey came at me with
both barrels
saying I was a "liar" for the simple reason that he's one of the
few people on the
planet who knows for a fact that the raincoat did NOT cost
exactly
$50,000. I asked Jeffrey how I should
refer to this raincoat... as
"the
raincoat that did NOT cost $50,000?" ... as "the raincoat that cost
something OTHER
than $50,000?". Jeffrey, of course,
did not respond, he
simply told us
all on a later post that I am "destroying the spirit of the
Beat-l"
because I said Rod Anstee was "Off Base" to use the private
correspondance
between himself and Gerry Nicosia to try to win a point in an
argument. This, of course, being the action that caused
Gerry to call on
Bill Gargan to
force Anstee to stop quoting private correspondance which may
in fact even be
illegal.
The point I'm
trying to make here is I have been defamed in a minor way and
it pissed me off
enormously! Gerry Nicosia has literally
been ASSAULTED by
many many people,
one of them even under a phantom screen-name!
How do you
expect him to
react? How would YOU react if somebody
shouted at you time and
again with
remarks like, "How long did your father jerk off in the flower pot
to raise a
blooming idiot like you? You know what
Gerry I don't give a
fiddler's fuck if
I get thrown off this list cause listening to you makes me
sick anyway. Take those rules about censorship print it
out, roll it into a
ball and SHOVE IT
UP YOU ASS." This treasure trove of scintilating "free
speech" was
of course compliments of our very own Phil Chaput who counts
among his heroes
the Reverend Martin Luther King!
I've said it
before and I'll say it again: IF YOU PEOPLE
WANT TO BRING PEACE
TO THIS LIST YOU
SHOULD BE CARPET BOMBING PHIL CHAPUT FOR SAYING THESE
THINGS! He's the one who is raising his voice time
and time again along with
Paul Maher and
also Rod Anstee.
Has anyone else
noticed how one or two of these guys takes a break for a
while but one of
them is constantly there with their sickening drone of how
Gerry Nicosia is
a monster? We haven't heard from Maher
and Anstee for a few
days but they'll
be back. And before that it was Anstee
who was keeping the
decible level
high while Phil took a break.
Who's on
Nicosia's side? He's standing there
alone taking a hammering and
people post to
HIM that HE should turn the other cheek!
That's nonsense!
You walk in his shoes for a while and see how
long you'd keep silent. Every
time one of these
people shoots these flames toward Gerry substitute YOUR
NAME where his is
and see how long you could stand it.
You're living in a
dream world if
you expect Gerry to stay silent on this.
He's not going to do
it! I wouldn't!
And I bet you wouldn't either!
The way to bring
PEACE to this list is to silence the attackers. Try doing
that for a while
and see what the results are.
Peace!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:08:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: All Things
No, Gerry did not
kill the beat list. Nor did Rod or Phil.
But there were
times that the prospect of "distroying the village in order to
save it"
seemed possible (A phrase that some Vietnam-era General or somebody
used to explain
the distruction of a real village, know who Gerry?). There
is a time to let
fly, even to threaten peacefully.
I never said much
during our most notable (and I suspect most enduring) flame
war, because I
had no first hand knowledge to contribute.
Now that things
have settled just
a bit, my opinion is that in the best of all possible
worlds I support
the vision of Gerry Nicosea. All of
Jack's papers in one
accessable place
to promote Kerouac scholarship and study throughout the
ages. I think that is Gerry's vision. If not, I humbly apologize for
misstating your
vision. A place where the best of the
Kerouac sprit endures
without
whitewashing or censoring ANYTHING. A
place where the Kerouac papers
are preserved and
REAL to people, including non-scholars" long after all but
tight assed
people like George Will have forgotten Norman Podheritz, Irving
Kristol and that
little weasel Truman Capote. Some people
think that Mr.
Nicosea's vision
is different from the way I have characterized it. They
have not
convinced me of anything other than the fact that well-meaning
people often
don't get along. Of course, we have
never heard from Mr. Sampas
directly.
If that vision
remains a mirage I'm not going to lose a whole lot of sleep
over it. Ya just got to pick your fights carefully,
and this ain't my fight.
So flame away...just don't burn the other
things that some of us
non-combatants
value about our little online community.
Those values include
civility and
mutual respect. I also reject the notion
that "if you are not
part of the
solution, you are part of the problem."
That might be true of a
time of war or
revolution, but not about a civil suit concerning the Kerouac
estate which IS
important but hardly a matter of life or death, or even about
basic
principles. At its core, Mr. Nicosea's
dispute with Mr. Sampas is a
legal matter, to
be decided by a judge or jury. Let
justice prevail, an
occasional
outcome of our legal system. Nobody has
convinced me that there
is ANYTHING that
I can do to affect the outcome of that dispute in ANY way.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:10:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Diane Carter
wrote:
> I've got to
say that when I see the words "take legal action against
> Brooklyn
College and the Beat-List," it upsets me.
i found this
quoted line 'odd' myself. also 'odd'
that some seem to
read past lines
like this and only see 'fault' (for lack of a better
word at the moment)
in the camp of CA&M. it would be a
'shame' if such
words as the
quoted line were to become more than empty threats. it is
a 'shame' in my
opinion that the individuals providing the service for
this list and its
administration even need to consider such a
possibility. i've been known to heat-up myself now and
then. sometimes
i forget to count
to 500 or to wait 24 hours or whatever rule-of-thumb
one chooses to
use. but this is bordering on senseless.
in another
direction, i don't think that jerry c. comprehends what is
being suggested
when he likens it to 'turning the other cheek'.
i think
it is much more
'picking your punches'. gerry n. seems
to counter-punch
at the stupidest
comments with full rhetorical flare. it
is difficult
for me to
distinguish which comments he finds credible and which he
senses are made
of straw when the power of the replies is the same
regardless of the
content of the previous posts.
i mean to defame
or libel no one with this message. or
slander for that
matter. 'shame' that such caveats seem necessary.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:14:26 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
May 31, 1997
Diane Carter
writes:
. Why don't you erase the anger
>from your own
posts and only respond in a rational, level-headed way. If
>you truly
want to be respected here, stop engaging in the battle.
>
Diane, I have erased my anger. But that doesn't mean I want or should be
subjected to a
stream of abuse every time I turn on my computer.
Imagine, can you, how you would feel if
every day when you went to
log onto the Beat
List, people were accusing you of various actual crimes
you didn't
commit, insulting you and your family, telling you you dare not
mention the name
of a famous man without "disgracing" him from your polluted
lips, etc.
This cannot be allowed to go on, if
this list is not to become the
property of a few
arrogant individuals who feel they can intimidate and
drive off any
discussion they do not like--drive if off, not with cogent,
intelligent
argument, but drive it off with the most vicious and disgusting
tactics.
I am pursuing the gentlest means
possible to end this kind of
coercion--for
that is what it is--but I will not give up until it is indeed
ended.
And yes, by the way, slander does
hurt. It hurt Jan's cause a good
deal while she
lived, and it is hurting my efforts to carry on her cause:
which is the
saving of Jack Kerouac's archive for posterity.
Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:12:48 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Music...
Maya Gorton
wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-05-31 09:11:39 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> Never read Schopy, but you post Maya has me
ROTFLMAO. But,
> personally,
> I think men are better liars than you give
them credit for here.
> Well,
> I was lying but can you tell which part is
the lie and which is the
> truth.
So come to think of it, email is as good as a beard, only
> better.
> >>
> I
know..you''re not REALLY rotflmao! Right?
e-mail is better than a
> beard
> for
sure...i've been told so many unsolicited tall tales already on
> the
>
internet. stories of murder and drug
money, glamour and wishful fame.
No, but I was lol and FELT like rolling on the
floor. :-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:14:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: All things
Comments: To:
jhasbro@tezcat.com
JWHasbrouck
wrote:
> Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>
> >>John
Hasbrouck writes:
>
>> "All things
considered, I think the Beat-L list is far more
>
>>interesting now than it has been at any time during the last two
> years or so
> ...."
>
> > John,
> > You mean I didn't murder the
Beat-List? I'm crushed.
> > Yours in failure,
> > Gerald Nicosia
>
> Gerry,
> On the
contrary - all issues, flames and partisanship aside - you, Mr.
>
> Nicosia, in
your own inimitable and fabulously impudent way, have
> resuscitated
and resurrected this list from a deathlike and dronish
> blandness
consisting of <Is So-and-So Beat?>, <What Should I Read?>
> and
> <Who's
The Greatest POvErT Of The 20th Century?>-type posts, all of
> which are
eminently deletable. Any Devoted Reader Of Books who can't
> deal with
the stench of dirty laundry coming from a Classic Legal
> Dispute over
a great literary estate is no better than Mr. Sampas
> trying
> to keep the
world from knowing that Kerouac sucked cock and drowned in
>
> booze.
>
> I hope this
rant doesn't kill my chances of being elected LurkMeister.
>
> John
Hasbrouck, BiblioFool
> Chicago
>
> P.S. Y'all
read <The Scandal of Ulysses>?
NOT in mho.
I still believe it is part of the first post, so you
really haven't
delurked yet, have you.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:31:14 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: Bob Kaufman and Martin Luther King
>GREATEST
BLACK POET OF THE BEAT GENERATION: BOB KAUFMAN
Bob Kaufman was
black? I am out of the loop, course I also wasn't born
until 1980 so to
me the beats are only words in books there isn't any
flesh blood or
memories. Damn.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:39:27 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: Music...
>I bet we all
listen to music almost all the time.
It'd be inneresting if
>people posted
their soundtracks with their posts.
(ben neil)
I just purchased
Horses by Patti Smith (IMHO very beat)
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:33:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Posey - Ode to NJ
Jerry Cimino wrote:
> I mis-spent
my senior year at college listening to Greetings from
> Asbury Park
> and The Wild
The Innocent & The E Street Shuffle.
We danced to
> Rosalita
'til
> dawn many 'a
night! The first date my wife and I had
was to a Bruce
> concert
> in DC. Discovery of JK came a year later.
>
> JC
Jerry:
I saw the born to
run tour in a small auditorium here in Columbia, great
show. Years later on the Born in the USA tour, my
wife, who was
pregnant 8 months
worth and I went. Richard jumped around
the whole
show.
Before he could
talk we were pulling him around the neighborhood in a
wagon. He was right at a year old. He was doing this sing song thing
all the time and
it was driving us batty. One of
neighbors mentioned as
we walked by that
we had a little "Bruce" in our wagon.
We looked at
each other and
realized that he was singing the chorus to Born in the
USA. It was heard every damn moringing on the way to day care for 4
years. In utero no less.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:52:02 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: west <anwest@UP.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
>alarmed by
the possibility that a few people
>could derail
the entire train
people can only
derail beat-l if the rest of us let them, but i really
don't see that
happening.
west
I belong to the
blank generation
and I can take or
leave it each time
-Richard Hell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:02:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: In response
While I agree
that Gerry should not come back to these sick attacks, I
also agree that
we on the list should help put a stop to them. I am
still awaiting
Mr. Anstee's proof the Gerry illegally sold Columbia
University papers
to UMASS at Lowell. We also know that
Gerry has not
been invited to
the service for Jan, that is a travesty.
We also must
ask why it is so
important for a seemingly unending attacks go on
against Gerry and
when Jerry, Jo Grant or myself defend him, we are then
attacked, and for
me it has been privately too.
I dealt with the
last round off the list.
But I believe
that it is important that Phil, Rod, or anyone else
understand that
they should not, and will not be allowed to personally
attack people on
the list. From what I see, we have
already lost one
very valuable
member because of these attacks. We must
stand up as a
group and let
them know that such behavior is uncivilized, not beat and
not allowed.
I have not seen
Gerry go out on his own after anyone, and if I do, I
will be one of
the first to lay into him for that. On
the other hand, I
have requested
that he allow the list to deal with this, and not take it
on.
But where do you
stand, is it ok for someone to say things like Phil
said in his
post? I will not repeat them here.
Is it ok for Rod
to accuse Gerry of selling Columbia Univesity papers to
UMASS Lowell when
he has no proof of such?
What is ok, if
you do not stand up, you will let the list "die". I am
not saying to
flame anyone, or to take Gerry's side.
Just a firm
private note, or
one to the list telling the posters of such trash to
stop. That is all.
Take a stand and keep Gerry, heh, maybe we can get
that other poet
back then. Maybe we could get poets on
the list as a
cool place to
hang. Would Ferlinghetti, Snyder, McClure, or other poets
come on this list
and watch Gerry get attacked like this and want to
stay on? We have an opportunity, I have a vision.
NO, I HAVE A VISION!!!!!!!!
I see men and
women like Ferlinghetti, Snyder, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Jan
Kerouac, Michael
McClure, Corson, Patchen, Natalie Merchent, Joni
Mitchell can all
sit at their list and communicate on the beat list with
us all. Maybe who knows might come. But who will come to a space
filled with
personal attacks of the like we have seen lately, no one.
Take a stand, if
we build it, they will come.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:56:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
Dave:
I thought Arizona
State University (Tempe) had the officialWSB collection -
What's up? Did
James give any details?....
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:50:16 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> in another
direction, i don't think that jerry c. comprehends what is
> being
suggested when he likens it to 'turning the other cheek'. i think
> it is much
more 'picking your punches'. gerry n.
seems to counter-punch
> at the
stupidest comments with full rhetorical flare.
it is difficult
> for me to
distinguish which comments he finds credible and which he
> senses are
made of straw when the power of the replies is the same
> regardless
of the content of the previous posts.
> David,
Thank you for
describing more clearly what I was trying to say, which is
not so much
"turn the other cheek" as it is "picking your punches."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:10:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Untitled
Bentz,
This is the one that really grabbed me
- particularly the ominous
final line.
Antoine ...listening to
"Leo Kottke Live"
************
>Untitled and
unfinished
>
>The
cabooseless train crawls by the queue of cars.
>She walks
around the barrier.
>Off white
sweater, black pants, horn rims,
>Mid-calf
boots and a look like life had worn her out.
>Her flayed
red hair sprawled like pampass grass untrimed.
>
>I could see
her mother's dreams hovering above
>Her sad
trail, the fear that all of that tiny spark could evaporate.
>Something has
taken her over--
>It is racking
her posture.
>It is
stealing the light from her eyes.
>It is leaving
behind a shell of dreams,
>As big as
anyones.
>Dreams
stillborn in the grass,
>Wrapped in a
bag and dumped in a dumpster.
>Dreams
trailing in the wakeof trains
>That run over
humans,
>Dreams left
driftiing in the ebb and flow
>Of this great
city.
>Dreams washed
to the bank,
>Wrung out,
lifeless, or barely alive.
>
>She walks
around the barrier.
>
>Bentz Kirby
>1995
>Columbia, SC
>
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:27:06 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
>
May 31, 1997
> I am pursuing the gentlest means
possible to end this kind of
>
coercion--for that is what it is--but I will not give up until it is indeed
> ended.
> And yes, by the way, slander does
hurt. It hurt Jan's cause a good
> deal while
she lived, and it is hurting my efforts to carry on her cause:
> which is the
saving of Jack Kerouac's archive for posterity.
> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
Gerald,
I do understand
the anger and hurt you must feel. I know
that it is a
highly emotional
situation. I have felt from the
beginning of all of
this that your
cause was noble, and I respect the fact that you intend
to follow it to
its legal resolution. I would respect
you for
carrying out a
friend's last wishes even if it wasn't the Kerouac
archives we were
talking about. That is why I think you
should be the
one to continue
to put forth logical, valid arguments with the facts and
avoid responding
to verbal barrages that are no more than just that. All
I am saying is
don't weaken your position with your own words. Let the
facts speak for
themselves.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:58:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
> >
> >
May 31, 1997
>
> > I am pursuing the gentlest means
possible to end this kind of
> >
coercion--for that is what it is--but I will not give up until it is indeed
> > ended.
> > And yes, by the way, slander does
hurt. It hurt Jan's cause a good
> > deal
while she lived, and it is hurting my efforts to carry on her cause:
> > which
is the saving of Jack Kerouac's archive for posterity.
> > Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia
>
> Gerald,
>
> I do
understand the anger and hurt you must feel.
I know that it is a
> highly
emotional situation. I have felt from
the beginning of all of
> this that
your cause was noble, and I respect the fact that you intend
> to follow it
to its legal resolution. I would respect
you for
> carrying out
a friend's last wishes even if it wasn't the Kerouac
> archives we
were talking about. That is why I think
you should be the
> one to
continue to put forth logical, valid arguments with the facts and
> avoid
responding to verbal barrages that are no more than just that. All
> I am saying
is don't weaken your position with your own words. Let the
> facts speak
for themselves.
>
> patricia
wrote,
It would be a
wonderful world if ignoring ignoble attacks worked. I had
a good reputation
and it was hard earned, my boss gave me a minion that
disquised the
truth with every known dressing except honesty.
She
accused me almost
daily of such a wide variety of things that i decided
she was
dangerously insane, when she brought up bizarre and unproven
accusations my
boss looked at me and said, prove they are not so. I
almost had a nervous
break down, i thought that the fact that i was
telling the truth
and had a track record would speak for me. well she is
still at the job,
i am out and he smirks , he used her to get me out
because he wasn't
so found of the truth or me. I hear she is pointed in
a new direction,
doing his dirty work for him, I have no
thought that
he won't retire
with honors. It is very hard to fight accusations and
contorted
lies. the probalby best way is to call
them on it and somehow
fight the shadows
and smoke with fact. If this is the type
of shit you
have had to deal
with for years and seen it wear down and
exhaust
others then you
have my heart. I am farther away from my
own experiance
but while i am
working on forgiving them i won't forget the lessons.
The winding
serpants lie is poisonous, don't unravel their shit so much
continue stating
the truth. don't bother trying to explain their nature
their posts show
it.
and by the way.
thanks for dropping the counter attacks, the list is
producing jewels
again.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:30:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
At 08:40 AM
5/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
May 31, 1997
>Maya Gorton
writes:
>>Why don't
you too faggots e-mail each other instead of bombarding us innocent
>>listees
with your petty drivel?
>
>Dear Maya,
> I have been happily married to my
second wife (a woman) for five years.
> I don't care to exchange libelous
exchanges with Mr. Chaput on or
>off the list.
> Mr. Gargan and several others,
including myself, have tried very
>hard to get
the dialogue on this List back within legal and civilized
>parameters,
i.e., to get rid of the libel, slander, defamation, and printing
>of people's
private letters, which is also illegal.
> Every time we do, Mr. Chaput or one of
his allies, like Mr. Maher,
>comes back
with a tirade of verbal abuse and verbal assault against me--the
>same tactics,
by the way, that were used to try to shut down Brad Parker and
>his
independent Kerouac events in Lowell.
> At the same time, Mr. Chaput and a few
others have been quick to
>point their
finger at me as the person who is destroying the Beat-List.
> The reality is: MR. CHAPUT AND HIS COHORTS
ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
>ENDANGERING
THIS LIST.
> They are putting me in the untenable
position of 1) either having to
>leave the
list myself; or 2) take legal action against Brooklyn College and
>the Beat-List
for distributing this libelous material--NEITHER OF WHICH I
>WANT TO DO.
> I.e., either I allow the bullies to win
yet another victory (like
>the victory
they won when they dragged a 100-pound invalid, Jan Kerouac, out
>of the Jack Kerouac
Conference at NYU) or I do possible harm to the Beat
>forum which
all of you enjoy so much.
> I do not like being put in this
position. And I suggest if you
>really care
about the Beat-List--all of you--that you tell Mr. Chaput and
>Mr. Maher now
that you want them TO IMMEDIATELY STOP CREATING THIS DANGEROUS
>DILEMMA.
> You might ask yourself, why are they
doing this?
> As you say, if they don't like my
messages, they can simply delete
>them. I am not writing anything that is a verbal
assault on their career,
>their
personal life, etc., as they are doing to me.
> The truth is, I believe, that they (for
certain very definite
>political
reasons) cannot stand the idea that Gerald Nicosia is on the Beat
>List and able
to speak to 200 Beat fans and scholars in a quiet, reasonable
>forum.
> So they have determined to get me off
in any way they can--and the
>only way they
know how is to act as bullies. It is the
way that has worked
>for them so
far. But I am determined it is not going
to work for them this
>time.
> Thanks for listening.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
>Delusional as
usual Mr. Nicosia..........I haven't posted anything to or
about your sorry
ass in a week....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:03:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: poem for Allen Ginsberg
After Allen
Ginsberg's death it took me a while to write a poem. Things
needed to settle
down in my mind a bit, I guess. But
here's one I think
I'm ready to
share now.
Allen Ginsberg
poet dead at 70
You were prepared
to meet death I think
I am not
also not prepared
to know that you are gone from this place
I never met you
in person yet I knew you intimately
felt your skin
felt what lie
underneath
1975 or 76 I
don't know exactly
your voice
chanting howl from an old record
stolen from the
college library
my stereo
speakers were broken
your voice was
scratchy but clear
I was lost in
Molach
lost in my own
madhouse
the privacy of my
own mind
I couldn't get
out
a private Molach
long days
pounding at a typewriter that lost my words as soon as
I saw them
I wanted to see
something see anything
I thought you
were a visionary
I knew that you
were
I saw Prometheus
pushing a rock up the hill over and over again
I felt sorry for
Prometheus
Sorry as I
listened to Jim Croce and wondered what it would be like
to know what you
want and then be dead
dead and gone
gone and where
back to your
mother
to the cold
luminous steel of the walls closing in
walls of the mind
walls shouting at
you and at me
then I felt as
old as the earth itself
like Dedalus
unable to embrace the great mother
see the cycle of
the river
no the river is
littered with garbage like the filthy passaic
too many beer
bottles too few sunflowers
I drank in my
pain it did not go away
I drank some more
searching for
illusions
ghosts of a once
fragile existence
where are you
going now
where have you
gone
the journey of
the soul is your's now
I will never be
ready for that
I am ready now
only to embrace my own humanness
your humanness
the frailty of
passing
peeing in the
night crouched low so no one can see
where beyond
fingernails and skin and teeth does life reside?
once I wanted to
die
I knew the fate
of utter aloneness
does that pass
for oneness with the universe?
crying babies
bashing out their brains in the night of eternity
bars closed
everyone gone
somewhere into the night
oh it is dark and
cold
across America
across the American sky
are you eternal?
are you one with
the eternal one?
death is a shout
in the dark or maybe that is wrong
maybe it is life
that is the shout in the dark
I found in you
the faith to be me
to continue to
shout long after the people had passed
I will shout for
you now that you are gone
like an eternal
echo
there are lines
and planes and penuses mixed with flowers and green grass
and water soaked
with oil and blood
come back now and
speak to me
do it now
do it soon
I am not ready to
die.
Diane Carter
May 11, 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:35:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
At 10:51 AM
5/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
> May 31,
1997
>Annie Shank
writes:
>>Hey, I
just got here. And I was hoping to find
further discourse of the
>>kind I
enjoyed with Lee Bartlett for an entire semester just past...
>... Can we talk about the literature for a
change?
>
>Annie,
> I couldn't agree with you more. But do you want to belong to a
>Beat-List
where a gang of 2 or 3 bullies can force anyone off the list,
>whenever they
so choose, just by applying an endless, unchecked stream of
>verbal abuse
to that targeted person?
> There's been a lot of hoo-ha about free
speech and censorship in Mr.
>Chaput's past
few posts. There is nothing in the U.S.
Constitution that
>guarantees
one person the right to verbally abuse and/or verbally damage
>another
person. To claim that one has the right
to libel and verbally
>assault
another person ("Hey, you dirty Jew!"
"Hey, you dirty nigger!"
>"Hey,
you dirty wop!") is a lot closer to fascism than the democracy I grew
>up learning
about.
> I want to talk about literature too,
but I also want a Beat-List
>where I'm
free to speak sound, rational, level-headed opinions--even if it's
>about the
Kerouac Estate--without two or three guys jumping at me with
>vicious
verbal attacks on my career, my personal life, my income, and
>anything else
they can think of.
> Don't you want that too?
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
>Whatever you
do though Annie...don't say anything about Gerry Nicosia or
his priceless
scholarship because as you will find out thereafter...you will
always be wrong.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:47:04 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
>Who's on
Nicosia's side? He's standing there
alone taking a hammering and
>people post
to HIM that HE should turn the other cheek!
POOR BABY.....
That's nonsense!
AND THE WHOLE
WORLD IS UNFAIR
> You walk in
his shoes for a while and see how long you'd keep silent.
No thank-you....I
dare not tread where Master Gerry has travelled...
Every
>time one of
these people shoots these flames toward Gerry substitute YOUR
>NAME where
his is and see how long you could stand it.
**********So then
what would my reaction be?????????
You're living in a
>dream world
if you expect Gerry to stay silent on this.
He's not going to do
>it! I wouldn't!
And I bet you wouldn't either!
*******Boy you
really made a point there!
>
>The way to
bring PEACE to this list is to silence the attackers. Try doing
>that for a
while and see what the results are.
****Go ahead,
silence us so that gerry can have the whole boat to himself
then he can
really pontificate his propaganda....
>
>Peace!
>
>That is all
and well good...but why is everybody so stuck on him being
right all the
time?
Your all in for a
big surprise one day....Cimino, your just as bad. i only
respond
"negatively" when Nicosia opens his big mouth. What would you like
me to do? Inform
me privately...I will tell you what I am up against. I
could care less
about Nicosia and his issues but he constantly has to bring
me up. I was
staying quiet because I was fed up and bored with the whole
thing but then
YOU and Nicosia bring my name into the picture.
Please......
>
>Jerry Cimino
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:49:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: All Things
At 09:08 PM
5/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>No, Gerry did
not kill the beat list. Nor did Rod or
Phil.
>
>But there
were times that the prospect of "distroying the village in order to
>save it"
seemed possible (A phrase that some Vietnam-era General or somebody
>used to
explain the distruction of a real village, know who Gerry?). There
>is a time to
let fly, even to threaten peacefully.
>
>I never said
much during our most notable (and I suspect most enduring) flame
>war, because
I had no first hand knowledge to contribute.
Now that things
>have settled
just a bit, my opinion is that in the best of all possible
>worlds I
support the vision of Gerry Nicosea. All
of Jack's papers in one
>accessable
place to promote Kerouac scholarship and study throughout the
>ages. I think that is Gerry's vision. If not, I humbly apologize for
>misstating
your vision.
No....Gerry's
vision is to have the estate to himself because he is scared
that when the
authorized bio is written his book will be outdated and
useless. But it
may not take that long. I think Ellis Amburn's book will
chop up his book
good and plenty.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:51:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
At 06:14 PM
5/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
> May 31, 1997
>Diane Carter
writes:
>
>. Why don't you erase the anger
>>from your
own posts and only respond in a rational, level-headed way. If
>>you truly
want to be respected here, stop engaging in the battle.
>>
>
>Diane, I have erased my anger. But that doesn't mean I want or should be
>subjected to
a stream of abuse every time I turn on my computer.
> Imagine, can you, how you would feel if
every day when you went to
>log onto the
Beat List, people were accusing you of various actual crimes
>you didn't
commit, insulting you and your family, telling you you dare not
>mention the
name of a famous man without "disgracing" him from your polluted
>lips, etc.
> This cannot be allowed to go on, if
this list is not to become the
>property of a
few arrogant individuals who feel they can intimidate and
>drive off any
discussion they do not like--drive if off, not with cogent,
>intelligent
argument, but drive it off with the most vicious and disgusting
>tactics.
> I
am pursuing the gentlest means possible to end this kind of
>coercion--for
that is what it is--but I will not give up until it is indeed
>ended.
> And yes, by the way, slander does
hurt. It hurt Jan's cause a good
>deal while
she lived, and it is hurting my efforts to carry on my cause to
have the estate
to myself so that I can prevent my book from becoming obsolete.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:43:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>
Subject: no subject
test of scuttling
claws from Altoona-test only
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:46:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Gerry,
Please, lighten up a bit will you. I was under the impression
that the Beat-L
list was for the gathering and discussing of information
concerning the
beat writers and their literature. You have managed to
write an
informative and well-written 700+ page book on the life of Jack
Kerouac and yet
in the past month all you have posted is pure emotional
backlash. How
about contributing to the base knowledge of what the beat
generation really
stands for? Every post you make seems to contain the
words libel, law
suit, sue, etc. Get back to the basics and tell us
about Jack and
Neal and Bill and Al. I'm sure that you have a great deal
that you could
contribute about the men and women we wish to discuss. I,
for one, would
much rather hear you speak as emotionally about them as
you do about all
the legal matters and personal issues with others that
you have concerned
yourself with. When are you going to tell us about
Jack and his
youth, how and why he wrote Dr. Sax or anything else that
relates to the
SUBJECT AT HAND? By all means, fight your good fight, but
do it on the
battlefield (read courtroom) and not in my living room.
Thanks,
Bill.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:42:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Bill gargon help
Bill, I like a
good argument but this isn't good where people get to say
crap, disquise
the own words as gn's.
p ( of course
list father is not a position i really want any one in but
as list mother i
would like more intellectual meat and less beatting the
meat.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:14:22 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
At 08:40 AM
5/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
May 31, 1997
>Maya Gorton
writes:
>>Why don't
you too faggots e-mail each other instead of bombarding us innocent
>>listees
with your petty drivel?
>
>Dear Maya,
> I have been happily married to my
second wife (a woman) for five years.
> I don't care to exchange libelous
exchanges with Mr. Chaput on or
>off the list.
> Mr. Gargan and several others,
including myself, have tried very
>hard to get
the dialogue on this List back within legal and civilized
>parameters,
i.e., to get rid of the libel, slander, defamation, and printing
>of people's
private letters, which is also illegal.
> Every time we do, Mr. Chaput or one of
his allies, like Mr. Maher,
>comes back
with a tirade of verbal abuse and verbal assault against me--the
>same tactics,
by the way, that were used to try to shut down Brad Parker and
>his
independent Kerouac events in Lowell.
> At the same time, Mr. Chaput and a few
others have been quick to
>point their
finger at me as the person who is destroying the Beat-List.
> The reality is: MR. CHAPUT AND HIS
COHORTS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
>ENDANGERING
THIS LIST.
> They are putting me in the untenable
position of 1) either having to
>leave the
list myself; or 2) take legal action against Brooklyn College and
>the Beat-List
for distributing this libelous material--NEITHER OF WHICH I
>WANT TO DO.
> I.e., either I allow the bullies to win
yet another victory (like
>the victory
they won when they dragged a 100-pound invalid, Jan Kerouac, out
>of the Jack
Kerouac Conference at NYU) or I do possible harm to the Beat
>forum which
all of you enjoy so much.
> I do not like being put in this
position. And I suggest if you
>really care
about the Beat-List--all of you--that you tell Mr. Chaput and
>Mr. Maher now
that you want them TO IMMEDIATELY STOP CREATING THIS DANGEROUS
>DILEMMA.
> You might ask yourself, why are they
doing this?
Who is the bully
now? Do you feel yourself being slowly revealed for who you
are by two people
who are in the know so you cleverly try to bounce us out
of the list by
making ultimatums to a university? Please people how can you
swallow this
crap....just because someone wrote a book doesn't make them
instant
celebrity. You will never attract real Beat writers on this list
BECAUSE of
Nicosia!!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:40:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dirk Vulgate <BIGDUCK2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
In a message
dated 97-06-01 02:00:41 EDT, Gerry Nicosia wrote:
<< They are putting me in the untenable
position of 1) either having
to
>leave the list myself; or 2) take legal
action against Brooklyn College and
>the Beat-List for distributing this
libelous material--NEITHER OF WHICH I
>WANT TO DO.
>
I do not like being put in this position. And I suggest if you
>really care about the Beat-List
--ALL OF YOU--
(emphasis mine)
that you tell Mr.
Chaput and Mr. Maher now that you want them TO IMMEDIATELY
STOP CREATING
THIS DANGEROUS DILEMMA. >>
***************************************************
I don't see Gerry Nicosia's leaving the
list as dangerous at all. We've
already lost a
dozen valuable longtime lively members. They are no longer
with us sharing
their well-founded opinions, knowledge and sense of humor
because they have
found they cannot have a rational discussion with Nicosia.
I think losing
the will (or feeling too intimidated) to express oneself in
this formerly
free-wheeling forum is where the true danger lies.
I invite everyone who no longer wants to
hear what Gerald Nicosia has to
say to simply
stop responding to his posts. We can put his mind to rest and
save him the
agony of needing to sue anyone if we just all agree to shut up,
right? Then we
will have our Beat-L list back.
After all, what is the sound of one hand
clapping?
Sincerely yours,
Dirk Vulgate, Jr.
(dv2)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:15:38 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
>Who is the
bully now? Do you feel yourself being slowly revealed for who you
>are by two
people who are in the know so you cleverly try to bounce us out
>of the list
by making ultimatums to a university? Please people how can you
>swallow this
crap....just because someone wrote a book doesn't make them
>instant
celebrity. You will never attract real Beat writers on this list
>BECAUSE of
Nicosia!!!!!
Sorry Paul but I
have been reading these threads for a while now as an
objective outside
observer. I have no affiliation with
anyone having
anything to do
with beat literature or publishing or the estate or estate
battle.
I have learned a
lot about the doings of the estate and kerouac scholarship
and how people
can access or not access the "data"--ie the his noteboks
etc... For
example if someone was interested enough to write a book about
kerouac's
literary influences they would need to be able to read the study
and make notes of
kerouac's archives.
In all this it is
clear that Nicosia is right about where Kerouac's
archives should
be and their availiability to researchers should be equal
and open.
The estate battle
and forged wills I don't know about nor could i know.
But even if there
were not opposing claims to the motherlode, Nicosia's
comments are
important and right. For a major writer
of the 20th century
(something we
here at the beat-l have known, but the mainstream is just
beginning to pick
up on) not to have his papers treated in the most
aboveboard
scholarly and academic manner (ie all of them kept together as
much as possible
at an institute where scholars and others interested can
access them
equally) is a crime against literature and against the readers
of the world.
Nicosia is not
talking crap.
He does have the
flair for rhetoric and can lay it on thick which can make
people miss his
main important points.
Points all of us
must agree with I would think.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:22:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Untitled
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
> Bentz,
>
> This is the one that really grabbed me
- particularly the
> ominous
> final line.
>
> Antoine ...listening to
"Leo Kottke Live"
>
> ************
>
> >Untitled
and unfinished
> >
> >The
cabooseless train crawls by the queue of cars.
> >She
walks around the barrier.
> >Off
white sweater, black pants, horn rims,
> >Mid-calf
boots and a look like life had worn her out.
> >Her
flayed red hair sprawled like pampass grass untrimed.
> >
> >I could
see her mother's dreams hovering above
> >Her sad
trail, the fear that all of that tiny spark could evaporate.
> >Something
has taken her over--
> >It is
racking her posture.
> >It is
stealing the light from her eyes.
> >It is
leaving behind a shell of dreams,
> >As big
as anyones.
> >Dreams
stillborn in the grass,
> >Wrapped
in a bag and dumped in a dumpster.
> >Dreams
trailing in the wakeof trains
> >That run
over humans,
> >Dreams
left driftiing in the ebb and flow
> >Of this
great city.
> >Dreams
washed to the bank,
> >Wrung
out, lifeless, or barely alive.
> >
> >She
walks around the barrier.
> >
> >Bentz
Kirby
> >1995
>
>Columbia, SC
> >
> >--
> >Bentz
>
>bocelts@scsn.net
> >
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
> >
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what
> to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
Antoine:
Thank you. That poem is about a year old though I am
still working on
it. I was watching this woman one day who was on
foot as we waited for
the train to go
by. She was headed to give plasma for
blood. As the
train went by,
she walked around the barrier long before the cars could
go, but she was
walking to some depressing something of no hope. It
just struck a
chord. I am touched by the fact that I
was able to report
the experience
and someone "got it." Thank
you.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:37:12 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Paul Mayer proves the point
Paul you wrote
this:
>Whatever you
do though Annie...don't say anything about Gerry Nicosia
or
his priceless
scholarship because as you will find out thereafter...you
will
always be wrong.
Please stop
making personal attacks on other members off the list. The
owner and many of
us have requested that you stop. I hope
that Gerry
will let this
die, but you continue own despite the fact you know that
the owner of the
list has asked you to stop. If you have
something bad
to say about
someone who is a member or person or alive or dead, take it
back channel
unless it is critisim and not personal.
I am tired of
personal attacks on members of this list.
We get what you
think. Please be civil.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:42:46 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Calling Dirk Vulgate
Dirk,
I do not believe
you are a real person. Please e-mail me
privately with your
phone number so I
can call you and we can talk like gentlemen - no shouting,
I promise!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:38:38 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Bill gargon help
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
> Bill, I like
a good argument but this isn't good where people get to
> say
> crap,
disquise the own words as gn's.
> p ( of
course list father is not a position i really want any one in
> but
> as list
mother i would like more intellectual meat and less beatting
> the
> meat.
Patricia:
Thank you and
LOL.
Bill,
Please remind
those who continue the personal attacks that this is not
approriate.
Thanks.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:46:25 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: The Unveiling
If anyone is
interested, my website is finally ready. Without further ado, I
give you:
Splashing Heart
http://www.wolfenet.com/~malcolm
Valentines of the
world, unite and take over.
Enjoy!
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:42:43 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Please stop this
POOR BABY.....
That's nonsense!
AND THE WHOLE
WORLD IS UNFAIR
-- ****Go ahead,
silence us so that gerry can have the whole boat to
himself
then he can
really pontificate his propaganda....
Your all in for a
big surprise one day....Cimino, your just as bad. i
only
respond
"negatively" when Nicosia opens his big mouth. What would you
like
me to do? Inform
me privately...I will tell you what I am up against. I
could care less
about Nicosia and his issues but he constantly has to
bring
me up. I was
staying quiet because I was fed up and bored with the whole
thing but then
YOU and Nicosia bring my name into the picture.
Please......
Paul:
What is it
exactly that you are saying here? I have
yet to find any
discussoin of
anything in your post. It simply
involves your personal
thing with
Gerry. Take it off the list.
Thank you,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 03:47:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Paul Mayer
and it is hurting my efforts to carry on my
cause to
have the estate to
myself so that I can prevent my book from becoming
obsolete.
Paul, have you no
self respect. This is a post that is
intended to make
it look like
Gerry said this. You should be
embarrassed. Why do this
in public?
I hope that
someone else out there will respond to this either publicly
or
privately. This is very very negative.
Gerry,
Please let it
slide.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:02:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul Mayer
Christ, Paul, you
are one sick puppy.
E-mail me your
address and I'll send you $100 so you can go see a shrink!
Jerry
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 04:28:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
In-Reply-To:
<v01510100afb672423059@[128.125.224.171]>
> But even if
there were not opposing claims to the motherlode, Nicosia's
> comments are
important and right. For a major writer
of the 20th century
> (something
we here at the beat-l have known, but the mainstream is just
> beginning to
pick up on) not to have his papers treated in the most
> aboveboard
scholarly and academic manner (ie all of them kept together as
> much as
possible at an institute where scholars and others interested can
> access them
equally) is a crime against literature and against the readers
> of the
world.
to do so is a crime against the writer. if
i had even the slightest
suspicion that
notes, sketches, drafts, anything i'd written and not
willingly offered
to the public as a whole would be rummaged through
after my death,
i'd burn them before i kicked. we're living in a time
when, especially
in the u.s., everything is talked about, reported on,
analyzed and
exposed for everyone to look at under their cracked $2
microscopes. it's
unfortunate really; the self-deceptive reason for this
trend seems to be
a search for absolute truths, which is a waste of time
in itself. the
purpose, of course, lying in the need to divert attention
away from
oneself. everyone's fucked up, but no one wants anyone else to
think that they
are, but we all kind of know it anyway. it's bogus. while
the scenario
being discussed on the list isn't at the core of this trend,
it's definitely
related. you see these people all the time; professors,
critics, etc.
riding out their lives on the coattails of prominent
figures, artistic
or otherwise. not all devotees to historic or modern
figures are like
this; it's when the putrid scent of an over-developed
ego accompanies
their pursuits that it becomes a turn-off.
and, on a hypocritical note, regarding
this whole argument... what
of the things
other people have to say about/to you? so what if someone
slanders you?
take it in stride and shrug it off like so many
mosquitoes. i,
and others i'm sure, being a newcomer to the list am
turned-off by
bogus bickering, but expected its presence before i signed
on. every
newsgroup, every list, everyplace/thing everywhere is to some
degree tainted by
it. you can't purge it. there'll always be someone that's
disgusted by you
and/or your ideas and urinates all over you, someone who
becomes
infatuated with you, your ideas, and drools all over you, and
people who are
everywhere in between. sick of it? change yourself, just 2
or three
degrees... you'll be amazed at how the world seems to pull a
full 180...
anyway, that's my rant.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:29:19 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: no subject
In-Reply-To:
<970601014308_-1028282744@emout01.mail.aol.com>
On Sun, 1 Jun
1997, Dixon Edmiston wrote:
> test of
scuttling claws from Altoona-test only
>
Now, you can
shoot me down in flames if I'm on a wrong'n here, but I think
that's pretty
damn beat.
:),
Olly R.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:05:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
i think i've said
this before. so i probably shouldn't say
it. i'll
try to learn to
do the one hand clap after this one.
it seems much
more important to me (and i would guess to many
non-scholars) for
as much of the non-published materials of Jack
Kerouac's to be
published.
i don't know that
the archive is a hindrance to this or not.
it just
seems the
priority would be publication for the larger readership - not
limitation to
scholars.
by the way, gerry
nicosia's biography Memory Babe gets better with every
page. there are some lines in there in between all
the kerouac analysis
that speak to the
human condition in brilliant ways. off
hand i recall
one concerning
choices very early in the book that i thought was a spark
of real truth.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
(i recall i
volunteered for the Devil role in this)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:07:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Paul Maher wrote:
>
>
>Delusional as usual Mr. Nicosia..........I haven't posted anything to or
> about your
sorry ass in a week....
this ain't close
to the strike zone.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:25:54 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: McClure a poetry.
In-Reply-To:
<l03020901afb638305758@[141.224.144.84]>
Dark Brown by Michael McClure
"Oh Ease Oh Body-Strain Oh Love
Oh Ease Me Not!
Wound-Bore"
be real, show organs, show, blood, OH
let me
be as a flower. Let ugliness arise
without care
grow side by side with beauty. Oh twist
be real to me. Fly smoke! Meat-real, as
nerves
TENDON
Ion, FLAME, Muscle, not banners but
bulks as
we are all 'deer'
and move as beasts. Stalking in our
forest
as these are speech-words
Burn them pure as above they rise from
attitude are
stultified. Are shit. Burn
what arises from habit. Let custom
die. Smash patterns and forms let
spirit
free to blasting liberty. Smash the
habit shit above!!!!!!!!!
LET PURE BLACK WORDS MOVE FROM THOUGHT
BEHIND
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:29:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Jerry C.
Mailer-daemon@aol.com
wrote:
>
> The mail you
sent could not be delivered to:
> 550 bigsur4me@aol.com
is not a known user
>
> The text you
sent follows:
>
> >From
race@midusa.net Sun Jun 1 07:22:04 1997
> Return-Path:
<race@midusa.net>
> Received:
from services.midusa.net (ns.midusa.net [206.28.168.21])
> by emin41.mail.aol.com
(8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
> with ESMTP id HAA21834 for
<Bigsur4me@aol.com>;
> Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:22:03 -0400 (EDT)
> Received:
from services.midusa.net (node48.salina.midusa.net [206.28.169.48])
> by services.midusa.net (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id GAA12871
> for <Bigsur4me@aol.com>; Sun, 1
Jun 1997 06:10:54 -0500 (CDT)
> Message-ID:
<33915B05.501B@midusa.net>
> Date: Sun,
01 Jun 1997 06:20:37 -0500
> From: RACE
--- <race@midusa.net>
> X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
>
MIME-Version: 1.0
> To:
Bigsur4me@aol.com
> Subject: Re:
Calling Dirk Vulgate
> References:
<970601034245_149919081@emout19.mail.aol.com>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Jerry Cimino
wrote:
> >
> > Dirk,
> >
> > I do
not believe you are a real person.
Please e-mail me privately with
your
> > phone
number so I can call you and we can talk like gentlemen - no shouting,
> > I
promise!
> >
> > Jerry
Cimino
>
> what is it
now people have to authenticate their personality through you
> before
contributing to discussions. that
doesn't make much sense to
> me. i could understand if the listoperator found
a reason that the
> information
might need to be provided - but it doesn't seem to be any of
> your
business.
>
> david rhaesa
> 500 e.
crawford st. #23
> salina,
Kanas
> 67401
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:45:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
MORE OXY THAN
MORON wrote:
>
> In case
anyone is interested (for future reference), the special collections
> dept at Ohio
State now has the biggest collection of Burroughs material in the
> US. James
Grauerholtz, secretary to WSB is in town, dropping off a truckload
of
> boxes (Maya,
very little to do with anthropology). We had dinner last night
> along with
John Giorno, David Ohle and John Geiger who is working on a
> biography of
Brion Gysin. WSB is doing fine at the moment, John Giorno is
> slated to be
in Louiseville this September (did you get him to come Ron?) and
> is a great
performer if you have never seen him. Finally, the Burroughs
> collection
should be available for use as soon as it is cataloged and sorted
> which might
take 2 or three more months (at least).
>
> Dave B.
Will somebody
please list when the Collection becomes available. Also
what will the
access rules be etc. etc. etc. I imagine
that isn't all
ironed out
yet. But when it is, I would be
interested and i imagine
that some others
here would be as well.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:10:07 BST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Harberd
<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: The Continuing Death of Beat-L
Once upon a time
(and a very nice time it was as well),
there was a place
called "Beat-L", a magical place where all
sorts of people
chatted in a friendly manner about anything
that came into
their heads, and generally sha-boped.
But
then came a lot
of nasty children (or they might have
already been
there, hidden) who started screaming at each
other.
"You're an
arsehole."
"No, you're
an arsehole."
"I said it
first."
"Fuck
you."
And so on.
Soon, the wiser
members of Beat-L packed their backs and
headed off onto
the highway, leaving these little kids to
bicker amongst
themselves. Kids because they didn't
have
the sense to
realise the complete futility of their juvenile
slanging matches.
Now hey, I don't
know the details. Why? Becuase for the
past couple of
months I've been systematically deleting
anything coming
into my mailbox even remotely to do with
this Kerouac
archives thing. I'm not saying that it's
not
important. But the way in which you are going about
"discussing"
it is really pissing me off. If you have
to
slag each other
off, take it private. 'Cos I don't think
most people out
here wanna here it. We wanna hear cool
stuff, beat
stuff, literary stuff, life stuff, not this
poisionus
psedo-libelous rhetorical shit which you insist on
posting.
Get your act
together.
I'll be leaving
the list soon, partly because it's annoying
me, and partly because
I'm going home for a holiday, but I
doubt I'll be
back. It's been a cool year mostly. But I
don't appreciate
being caught in the middle of a pointless
word war that has
nothing to do with me. I'm actually
astonished that
so-called-"Adults" can act this way.
Tom.
http://ww.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:14:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill gargon help
>Bill, I like
a good argument but this isn't good where people get to say
>crap,
disquise the own words as gn's.
>p ( of course
list father is not a position i really want any one in but
>as list
mother i would like more intellectual meat and less beatting the
>meat.
I've pretty much
stayed away from commenting on the estate hullabaloo but I
have to say I
agree with you. The post by PM that added on words to GN's
without any
clarification were very misleading and bothered me very much.
If I had just
recently signed on and read that without knowing much of the
background and
personalities I could easily have taken them to be GN's own
words. I hate
rules and limits, feel people should be trusted to follow
their own nature
and that should be ok, but boy, this sure seems to be
pushing bounds of
civility or something. Guess it says a lot about the
person posting.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:32:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul Mayer
At 04:02 AM
6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Christ, Paul,
you are one sick puppy.
>
>E-mail me
your address and I'll send you $100 so you can go see a shrink!
>
>
>
>Jerry
>If being a
"sick puppy" means not being subjugated to Gerry Nicosia's
thought process I
will take the hundred dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 08:21:37 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Bill gargon help
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
> > Bill, I
like a good argument but this isn't good where people get to
> > say
> > crap,
disquise the own words as gn's.
> > p ( of
course list father is not a position i really want any one in
> > but
> > as list
mother i would like more intellectual meat and less beatting
> > the
> > meat.
>
> Patricia:
>
> Thank you
and LOL.
>
> Bill,
>
> Please
remind those who continue the personal attacks that this is not
> approriate.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
I think it is to
Bill Gargan's credit that he has not stepped in to
protect either
side in this debate, only asked for civility, which both
sides have had
trouble with.
There have been
some wonderful pleas to Mr. Nicosia the last few days to
hold his fire or
pick his punches. Mssrs Chaput, Maher,
and Vulgate
should also take
these admonissions to heart. Todays
postings from this
side have been
primarily abusive, simple-minded and non productive.
This thing has
run it's course. When the courts have
ruled there may be
new material for
discussion, but we aren't learning anything new from
either side at
the moment. Everbody in this thing is
losing respect and
credibility. Maybe both sides--Nicosia, Grant, Cimino etc,
Maher,
Chaput, the
mysterious Dr. Vulgate and others could just cool their
jets. (I don't
mention Mr. Anastee because he has been silent for some
time and is
clearly not Mr or Mrs. Vulgate) This list has no legal power
to change
anything. If another biography of JK
appears we can all make
our own
evaluation of how it compares with Mr. Nicosia's.
Maybe we can get
this thing to die out without litigation or calling for
Bill Gargan to
excommunicate anyone.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:20:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Paul Mayer
Paul Maher wrote:
>
> At 04:02 AM
6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >Christ,
Paul, you are one sick puppy.
> >
> >E-mail
me your address and I'll send you $100 so you can go see a shrink!
> >
> >
> >
> >Jerry
> >If being
a "sick puppy" means not being subjugated to Gerry Nicosia's
> thought
process I will take the hundred dollars!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It seems fairly
easy to avoid this subjugation. It is a
complex
philosophy called
"No Bait!". Nicosia's
rhetorical process to this
point has been
90% or more counter-punching. If you
don't punch, he may
fall silent. Or he may as many hope contribute to the
unending
conversation of
beatifitudinalistic insight on non-estate matters.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:38:23 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: WRB on WWW
Dear Beat-L
members:
Our new Water Row
Books website is located at:
http://www.waterrowbooks.com
See you there -
Jeffrey
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:51:04 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jerry C.
You miss the
point, Race, about this Dirk Vulgate "person".
Dirk Vulgate is a
figment of someone's imagination. He
won't reveal who he
is because he's a
phantom created recently to bolster Nicosia's detractors to
make it appear
there are more people out there who think he's a megalomaniac.
Would it be
legitimate, Race, for me to go and create additional screen names
and start posting
my ideas under different ID's? And maybe
after that I
could go to my
wife's computer where she has 3 different ISP's and post a few
more!
As I recall Dirk
Vulgate said he was only going to post "one time" and of
course he came
back. The same way Paul Maher said he
was going to
unsubscribe but
never did. Kinda makes you wonder!
REMEMBER: The issue is the Archives. Look at how Paul has gotten everyone
off topic again,
the same way Chaput did with his venomous antics two days
ago!
Jerry C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:51:07 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bill gargon help
In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:42:15 -0500
from
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
So would I,
Patricia. I'm doing my best to cool this
whole thing down and I wi
ll enforce the
guidelines I put forth last week.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:58:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jerry C.
Jerry Cimino
wrote:
>
> You miss the
point, Race, about this Dirk Vulgate "person".
>
> Dirk Vulgate
is a figment of someone's imagination.
He won't reveal who he
> is because
he's a phantom created recently to bolster Nicosia's detractors to
> make it
appear there are more people out there who think he's a megalomaniac.
>
> Would it be
legitimate, Race, for me to go and create additional screen names
> and start
posting my ideas under different ID's?
And maybe after that I
> could go to
my wife's computer where she has 3 different ISP's and post a few
> more!
i don't see why
that would matter. the number of voices
saying stupid
things doesn't
make them less stupid.
>
> As I recall
Dirk Vulgate said he was only going to post "one time" and of
> course he
came back. The same way Paul Maher said
he was going to
> unsubscribe
but never did. Kinda makes you wonder!
doesn't make me
wonder. they obviously changed their
minds. i've told
myself i would
stop posting or even reading this stuff, but i've often
changed my
mind. it's my option and theirs i
suppose.
i think you
missed my point that the person's identity is NONE OF YOUR
BUSINESS!!!!!!!
>
>
REMEMBER: The issue is the
Archives. Look at how Paul has gotten
everyone
> off topic
again, the same way Chaput did with his venomous antics two days
> ago!
>
Yeah Yeah
Yeah. The continuing chorus of "The
ISSUE if the ARCHIVES."
The more you say
that the more i'm convinced that there are other
issues. obviously issues of personal property rights
(which I've been
told don't
matter). also the issue of publishing
previously unpublished
materials. And the Archives are not even an ISSUE with
regards to
anyone here until
such day as a Court releases the control of the
literary estate
from Sampas (a man i doubt i'll ever meet) to Mr.
Nicosia (another
man i doubt i'll ever meet). until that
point it seems
we're all just
pissing in the wind.
i'm going to
watch a Bronson movie instead.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
> Jerry C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:24:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Jerry C.
At 11:51 AM
6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>You miss the
point, Race, about this Dirk Vulgate "person".
>
>Dirk Vulgate
is a figment of someone's imagination.
He won't reveal who he
>is because
he's a phantom created recently to bolster Nicosia's detractors to
>make it
appear there are more people out there who think he's a megalomaniac.
>
>Would it be
legitimate, Race, for me to go and create additional screen names
>and start
posting my ideas under different ID's?
And maybe after that I
>could go to
my wife's computer where she has 3 different ISP's and post a few
>more!
>
>As I recall
Dirk Vulgate said he was only going to post "one time" and of
>course he
came back. The same way Paul Maher said
he was going to
>unsubscribe
but never did. Kinda makes you wonder!
>
>REMEMBER: The issue is the Archives. Look at how Paul has gotten everyone
>off topic
again, the same way Chaput did with his venomous antics two days
>ago!
>
>
>Jerry C.
>No you do not
understand...the archives are not my worry. I know they are
in good, competent
hands. Paul....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:27:38 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: a different thread
No more will I
mention a thing...
How do people
feel about Part 3 of Visions of Cody? "Frisco: The Tape":
Does it add or
detract from the book? I feel that Kerouac's writing in the
first two parts,
the realization of his spontaneous prose method, is pure,
driven genius.
The addition of tape transcripts however changes the focus of
the vision of
Cody.....but I don't know if it gives him any new
dimension...Any
takes on this?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:15:53 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a question:jack kerouac bio written by
Gerald Nicosia
points
first: there's an
italian language translation of the
book written by Gerald Nicosia 'bout
the JK life
& works? anyone can tell something?
second:in angst
for the hot shift of the posts from word
to word, but i'm a real beet (sic!)
& i do not understand
why people leaves the B-List.
Yessir,
Jack Kerouac
"Let's go.
Where are we going, man?
I don't know, but we gotta go".
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:23:21 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Civil Discourse
It appears that
the recent guidelines on civil discourse have been
ignored by a
number of listmembers. I have begun
blocking people who
violate those
guidelines from posting to the list. I
will continue to
do so, usually
after a warning.There have been several messages from
listmembers
complaining about the volume of mail on the list as of late.
I am looking into
possible changes in the listserv profile which will
both reduce the
volume of mail and encourage those whose replies are
primarily
intended for for the sender to communicatedirectly. Thank you
all for your
patience. I hope we can discuss the
lives and works of the
Beat Generation
in an atmosphere or mutual respect and civility.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:37:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: a different thread
Paul Maher wrote:
>
> No more will
I mention a thing...
>
> How do
people feel about Part 3 of Visions of Cody? "Frisco: The Tape":
> Does it add
or detract from the book? I feel that Kerouac's writing in the
> first two
parts, the realization of his spontaneous prose method, is pure,
> driven
genius. The addition of tape transcripts however changes the focus of
> the vision
of Cody.....but I don't know if it gives him any new
>
dimension...Any takes on this?
Paul,
When I first read "Visions of
Cody" the tape transcription
portion had me a
bit confused but after a second sitting I came to the
realization that
what we had here was the rare opportunity to
eavesdrop on the
actual day to day communications between Neal and Jack.
Granted, they
were usually "under the effect" of some substance or
another but
listening to the conversations they had, well, sort of a
"BEAT"
to it, don't you think?
Bill.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:50:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: no subject
Olly Ruff wrote:
> On Sun, 1
Jun 1997, Dixon Edmiston wrote:
>
> > test of
scuttling claws from Altoona-test only
> >
>
> Now, you can
shoot me down in flames if I'm on a wrong'n here, but I
> think
> that's
pretty damn beat.
>
> :),
>
> Olly
R.
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across
the floors of silent seas.
TS Eliot
Love Song of JAP
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:58:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Jerry C.
RACE --- wrote:
>
Mailer-daemon@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > The
mail you sent could not be delivered to:
> > 550
bigsur4me@aol.com is not a known user
> >
> > The
text you sent follows:
> >
> >
>From race@midusa.net Sun Jun 1 07:22:04 1997
> >
Return-Path: <race@midusa.net>
> >
Received: from services.midusa.net (ns.midusa.net [206.28.168.21])
> > by emin41.mail.aol.com
(8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
> > with ESMTP id HAA21834 for
<Bigsur4me@aol.com>;
> > Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:22:03 -0400 (EDT)
> >
Received: from services.midusa.net (node48.salina.midusa.net
>
[206.28.169.48])
> > by services.midusa.net (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id GAA12871
> > for <Bigsur4me@aol.com>; Sun, 1
Jun 1997 06:10:54 -0500
> (CDT)
> >
Message-ID: <33915B05.501B@midusa.net>
> > Date:
Sun, 01 Jun 1997 06:20:37 -0500
> > From:
RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
> >
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
> >
MIME-Version: 1.0
> > To:
Bigsur4me@aol.com
> >
Subject: Re: Calling Dirk Vulgate
> >
References: <970601034245_149919081@emout19.mail.aol.com>
> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Jerry
Cimino wrote:
> > >
> > >
Dirk,
> > >
> > > I
do not believe you are a real person.
Please e-mail me
> privately
with
> your
> > >
phone number so I can call you and we can talk like gentlemen - no
> shouting,
> > > I
promise!
> > >
> > >
Jerry Cimino
> >
> > what is
it now people have to authenticate their personality through
> you
> > before
contributing to discussions. that
doesn't make much sense to
>
> >
me. i could understand if the
listoperator found a reason that the
> >
information might need to be provided - but it doesn't seem to be
> any of
> > your
business.
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > 500 e.
crawford st. #23
> > salina,
Kanas
> > 67401
David:
David:
I am just
guessing, but there are some members on aol who have been
agressive in
their attacks on Gerry. I am guessing
that Jerry C. thinks
that someone on
aol to attack Gerry, possibly outside the rules of the
list and without
their identity being known. At least
that is what I
suspected
anyway. So I read Jerry's post to say,
stop attacking from
behind fake
screen names. Could be wrong
though. Only Jerry can say
for sure.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:08:15 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Every who?
>Every whore
has her reasons
This is odd. I've
always heard this expression as "everyone has their reasons,"
which is a lot more terrifying/interesting to
my ears.
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:20:21 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: HOW many subscribers?
>As of this
moment (9:36am EDT, May 30) there are 248 subscribers to
>beat-l.
>
>fred
There were this
many back when Ginsberg died, but according to my most
current
"receipt":
Your message
dated Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:08:15 -0700 with subject "Every who?"
has been
successfully distributed to the BEAT-L list (178 recipients).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:11:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Bill gargon help
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
James Stauffer
wrote:
> I think it
is to Bill Gargan's credit that he has not stepped in to
> protect
either side in this debate, only asked for civility, which
> both
> sides have
had trouble with.
>
> There have
been some wonderful pleas to Mr. Nicosia the last few days
> to
> hold his
fire or pick his punches. Mssrs Chaput,
Maher, and Vulgate
> should also
take these admonissions to heart. Todays
postings from
> this
> side have
been primarily abusive, simple-minded and non productive.
>
> This thing
has run it's course. When the courts
have ruled there may
> be
> new material
for discussion, but we aren't learning anything new from
> either side
at the moment. Everbody in this thing is
losing respect
> and
>
credibility. Maybe both sides--Nicosia,
Grant, Cimino etc, Maher,
> Chaput, the
mysterious Dr. Vulgate and others could just cool their
> jets. (I
don't mention Mr. Anastee because he has been silent for some
>
> time and is
clearly not Mr or Mrs. Vulgate) This list has no legal
> power
> to change
anything. If another biography of JK
appears we can all
> make
> our own
evaluation of how it compares with Mr. Nicosia's.
>
> Maybe we can
get this thing to die out without litigation or calling
> for
> Bill Gargan
to excommunicate anyone.
>
> J Stauffer
Here here, I
second the remarks by the Honorable J Stauffer.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:18:59 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Minneapolis and the Beats
Hello Antoine,
Yes, I still play
a lot of slide but am able to fret. I am primarily,
a finger-stylist
and improv in Open tunings. It's a painful process
of much bone
cracking and hand soaks with massage/pressure point
relief on a daily
basis. When I was a kid, I was eaves- dropping on a
conversation
between Lightning Hopkins and another fellow and he said,
"If you
don't feel pain, you must be dead." I don't think that I've
met John
Hasbrouck unless on a chance through Luther Allison. I used
to fish with Luther when he was on the Delmark label.
Once in awhile
he would show-up
with other folks from Chi who liked to fish bluegills
and cats. I never
layed the harp down and I love amping it=97try to catch
that Little
Walter sound=97still trying!
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:38:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Dr. Destouches
I'm new so I
don't know if this has been hashed over before (pun intended),
but where does
Celine fit in with the beats? Did he not influence JK and AG
and WSB to some
extent? Just curious.
Celine describing writers and journalists who
boast of having abolished war:
"They've never fucked, bucked,
hustled, muscled a damn thing! those
be-peacocked
parakeets, not the least butt or babe, the least complicament,
never unfinagled,
discombobbled the weakest mitigated litigation! Not a
thing! Never!
short-sighted sleazes! Pencil-necked shitslingers!
The fuming, destructing Furies of War
scoff at your woggish emotings to
the ends of hell!
your silent, anathematic farting.
You cowardly, shit-scared gropers! I'm
enfulminating I admit! I'm
moiling! I'm
boiling! I'm humbugging my wig! I'm fuguing! I'm shrieking! I'm
breathless! I'm
belching roiling vapors! I don't give a fitting fuck
anymore."
Whew! Well maybe
not in contents but how about the style? Any comments?
Thanks!
Dix
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:49:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Bill
Bill:
I am trying to
back channel you. Please send me your
email address. It
keeps bouncing
right now.
Thanks.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:47:00 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: HOW many subscribers?
In-Reply-To:
<01BC6E86.314AF400@sea-ts1-p70.wolfenet.com>
At 12:20 PM -0700
6/1/97, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> >As of
this moment (9:36am EDT, May 30) there are 248 subscribers to
> >beat-l.
> Your message
dated Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:08:15 -0700 with subject "Every who?"
> has been
successfully distributed to the BEAT-L list (178 recipients).
Well, I guess the
50 or so messages I received saying this list was shit
(or arguing about
shit) did its job! Keep up the good
work!
Douglas <who
appreciates the content and thought this list seems to embody>
'oh are you
listening to me?
lilac wine,
gently floating...
will they miss
me? lilac wine...
oh, this is so
infuriating
lilac wine...,
I'm so heavy
lilac wine...,
mississippi'
-----(mourning jeff buckley
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:08:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Review
Review-L
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:41:43 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: a different thread
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19970601162738.006dacec@pop.pipeline.com>
>No more will
I mention a thing...
>
>How do people
feel about Part 3 of Visions of Cody? "Frisco: The Tape":
>Does it add
or detract from the book? I feel that Kerouac's writing in the
>first two
parts, the realization of his spontaneous prose method, is pure,
>driven
genius. The addition of tape transcripts however changes the focus of
>the vision of
Cody.....but I don't know if it gives him any new
>dimension...Any
takes on this?
@@@@@@
i rather like
them, for many reasons, but mostly for enhancing the
meta-reality of
the experience, i equally enjoy the film takes (?arg, cant
find my copy of
book: jane rashanks' or something ),
endlessly redoing
that little bit
of celluoid. in fact adds dimension as Jk using some of the
form of literal
recordings of actual events lends backdrop to the zanier
and more IT forms
of experience, that often it was a coupla guys with a
coupla bottles,
dope, bennies, what all, slugging it out for succession of
nights. i sure
know i'be been in such situations my self, and then pulled
back a bit to see
the inside/outside out, figure/ground etc
off i go..
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:35:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: www link page
Well, I have
finally begun to work on my web link page.
I have added a
page from
Stanford on Fair Use and Copyright if anyone is interested.
I also have added
some book store sites. If you have a
"beat" site, or
a book store
site, email me back channel and I will try to work your
site in.
Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:43:41 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: a question:jack kerouac bio written
by Gerald Nicosia
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601181553.00c10124@pop.gpnet.it>
>second:in
angst for the hot shift of the posts from word
> to word, but i'm a real beet (sic!)
& i do not understand
> why people leaves the B-List.
> *****
rinaldo your
sweet words are so often a balm to sorely tried temper.
glad you are
staying.
mc.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:42:52 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: HOW many subscribers?
Before making any
judgements I'd suggest we wait and see an "official"
response as to
how many subscribers are on the list today.
For whatever
reason it appears
the LISTSERVE receipt does not reflect the true number of
people
subscribed.
A week ago I
mentioned how the listserve receipt reflected 186 people. The
next day Fred
Bogin said in reality it was 248 as of that moment in time.
Using that as a benchmark I'd guess we're
right around 240 today. I do not
believe 50 people
have unsubbed in the last week and a half.
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:05:12 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Visions of Cody book discussion
>i rather like
them, for many reasons, but mostly for enhancing the
>meta-reality
of the experience, i equally enjoy the film takes (?arg, cant
>find my copy
of book: jane rashanks' or something ),
endlessly redoing
>that little
bit of celluoid. in fact adds dimension as Jk using some of the
>form of
literal recordings of actual events lends backdrop to the zanier
>and more IT
forms of experience, that often it was a coupla guys with a
>coupla
bottles, dope, bennies, what all, slugging it out for succession of
>nights. i
sure know i'be been in such situations my self, and then pulled
>back a bit to
see the inside/outside out, figure/ground etc
>off i go..
>
Yes...very
perceptive. I think the variety of mind sensations is reflected
throughout. From
what I heard...the tapes are verbatim transcription but
seem to be lost
somewhere as a real, primary source to see just how Jack was
working this into
the novel.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:52:32 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Gordon Legg
In-Reply-To:
<970601115103_-663501142@emout01.mail.aol.com> from "Jerry
Cimino" at Jun 1, 97
11:51:04 am
WARNING:No estate
battle text or insults enclosed.
Jeffrey mentioned
a UK writer named Gordon Legg to me about a month
ago.
Do any of you
good folks know of him/his work?
(is he still with
us?)
Also,what is the
Merlin Circle?
Looking forward
to hearing from you
AND for the
return of list civilty.
(thanks,Bill
G.for stepping in)
- Carl -
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:07:52 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: new poem
Here is a new
poem that I am starting right now at 6:50 pm edt.
Park
Sun, shade,
bandstand, waterfall, and pond,
I should be at
work,
But, I am not.
I walk past
worshippers of RA,
Past frisbee
flingers and receivers,
Past the same
woman on roller blades,
And around the
large gold fish pond.
The Government
employees lounge
In all the best
shade spots.
Exploration leads
round and round
Till suddenly, a
sacred grove
Beneath lotus
trees I sit.
A young woman
reads Joyce neath the falling water.
I sit and the
quietness
Moves out from my
soul in ripples.
The journey
continues on.
A large woman
exercises,
Stretching large
flesh.
A young woman
tumbles for her children
Perfectly aligned
cart wheels, some one handed,
Round offs,
beautiful symetry.
I return past
school children and teachers,
And pecking
orders,
And who you are
by who likes you,
Past the woman on
roller blades again,
And then, I see
them.
Perfect, and out
of darkness,
Golden neath the
dark murky water,
Graceful as the
delight at this sight,
Overwhelms my
adult.
My child comes
out to watch these
Golden treasures,
swimming round the pond.
Ahhh, blisssss is
child like,
beatific in its
return to innocence.
Bliss is here
among the lounging park employees.
Bliss is in the
attractive woman reading at the falls.
Bliss is in the
fat women stretching at the rails.
Bliss is in the
gymnast tumbling cross the fields.
Bliss is in the
young women sunning on the grass.
Bliss is in the
young men chasing frisbee trying to catch their eyes.
Bliss is in the
loving couple lying in the shade.
Bliss is in the
school children running cross the grounds.
Bliss is in the
woman roller blading round and round and round.
Bliss is in the
goldfish cruising in and out of light.
Bliss is in my
heart where I hold this wonderous sight.
Finished at 7:15
edt.
First draft out
of head and into beat l.
Bentz Kirby
June 1, 1997
Columbia, SC
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:12:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: [Fwd: Message ("Your message dated Sun,
01 Jun 1997 19:07:52...")]
This is a
multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------2384B30AC882E382E7F23165
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
People come and
go,
and talk of
Michaelangelo.
Everything in the
world relates to Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock. ;-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------2384B30AC882E382E7F23165
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Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:14:02 -0400
From:
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University of NY (1.8b)"
<LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Message ("Your message dated Sun, 01
Jun 1997 19:07:52...")
To: Bentz Kirby <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Your message
dated Sun, 01 Jun 1997 19:07:52 -0400 with subject "new poem"
has been
successfully distributed to the BEAT-L list (176 recipients).
--------------2384B30AC882E382E7F23165--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:44:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Civil Discourse
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97060112311552@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
at the risk of
bandwidth, just wanted to say thanks, bill.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:47:46 -0500
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From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Bill:
>
> I am trying
to back channel you. Please send me your
email address. It
> keeps
bouncing right now.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
There are a
number of Bill's on this list. My e-mail address is
Schpill@execpc.com
schpill@juno.com
schpill@aol.com
If this message was meant for me you may
contact me any time you
wish.
Bill
Rose.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:28:46 -0600
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From: John Mitchell
<mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar
In-Reply-To:
<199705312305.QAA03363@italy.it.earthlink.net>
Mucho thanks to
all you who got out Kaufman's selected poems.
Now I've
read the great
Intro. to Cranial Guitar, which notes that John Mitchell ran
the Gaslight
bar/saloon/ restaurant (?) in Sanfercisco 50s, camerado to
Beats but capable
of 86ing. I lived there 2 years in
middle 70s, so have
some sense of the
place, my wife from San Jose, now am DeadBeat teacher in
Minneapolis. Yes, "Would You Wear My Eyes" is
real/poetry--black Rimbaud
for true. Will write and inquire more when I return
from my two weeks
gone, including
poems flowing from reading helterskelter (I'm still grading
papers grades due
Friday last) in Cranial Guitar. My word
is a virus, but
I advise
BeatListers to check out this book if you like your Beat poetry
raw and
unstereotypical. // John M.
>At 03:20 PM
5/31/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>True to
the virus that is my word, I put on my Birkenstocks (pale feet,
>>unglued
soles at the tips) this Sat. morn and went to the Hungry Mind,
>>there got
the only copy of Cranial Guitar.
>>
>>1. Scholarly question: I had not heard of the publication until the
past
>>few days
on the BList, and the copyright date says 1996.
Has the book been
>>out for
months, or just delayed in release and distribution? If out for
>>long, why
no previous reference on the BList?
>>
>>"ENGPOP,
ENGPOP, BOP, PLOLO, PLOLO, BOP, BOP."
>>
>>Bob
Kauffmann, "Crootey Songo"
>>
>>Great! Am loooking forward to loving the book (got
Solitudes Crowded with
>>Loneliness
long ago at City Lights, & have always loved the Frank O'Hara
>>type
title, Golden Sardine--just great with silver crackers and beer).
>>Thanks to
all who've helped keep this solitary Beat strumming.
>>
>>2. Scholarly (M. A.--in English!) question: Gerry Nicosia (I love you,
>>man.),
who chose the title for these Selected Poems you edited--you,
>>Kauffmann,
who? Why, beyond the obvious, etc.?
>>
>>Then I
went across the hall to The Table of Contents to sip and browse
>>$1.25
>>plus .09
tax
>>FRESH
ROASTED COFFEE
>>(A
BOTTOMLESS MUG OF OUR OWN BLEND)
>>when what
to my wondering eyes these lines:
>>
>>I dreamed
I went to John Mitchell's poetry party
>>in my
maidenform brain
>>
>>Holy! Cow
>>
>>3. Scholarly question: Who is this interloper, me? (A joke; my poetry
>>always
wears bras, but I was shocked to discover it had been outted! I
>>always
knew I would be a famous Beat someday, but should have known it
>>would not
be the real me.)
>>
>>I
unsubscribe tomorrow, so please answer scholarly questions soon. (And no
>>flames,
unless scholarly marshmellows are provided.)
>>
>>John M.
>
>Dear John, May 31, 1997
>
> Eileen Kaufman, Bob's widow, picked out
about six or seven possible
>titles from
lines in Bob's poems. Her favorite was
"INTO CRACKLING
>BLUENESS,"
which is a Kaufman paraphrase of one of his own favorite poets,
>Lorca. But the publisher preferred "CRANIAL
GUITAR," from a poem where Bob
>says "My
head is a cranial guitar," etc.
(Forgot which poem.)
> Don't know who the John Mitchell was
that Bob refers to--surely one
>of the many
North Beach pre-Beatniks of the late 50's, and there were many.
>Maybe I'll
ask Eileen next time I see her.
> What city do you live in, anyway?
> As for no mention of it on the Beat
List, I haven't seen mention of
>Ferlinghetti's
latest either--A FAR ROCKAWAY OF THE HEART, which was just
>released from
New Directions. I haven't been a big fan
of Lawrence's recent
>stuff, last
few years, but this book IS DYNAMITE, THE BEST STUFF HE'S
>WRITTEN IN
30-40 YEARS. There's a four-page poem to
Ezra Pound that is ONE
>OF THE FINEST
POEMS OLD LARRY HAS EVER PENNED (IMHO).
A few lines:
>
> "At worst an old man's mumbled
jumble
> of erudicities and profundities
> by turns noble and incoherent
> Scatter of rain on a mansard roof
> mixed with antique gossip
> ancient Tuscan account books
> and yesterday's conversations
> A garrulous gabble of
> crackerbarrel colloquial
> cobbled into the typography of poetry
> in canti that couldn't possibly be
sung...."
>
>Here's my
favorite Kaufman poem from CRANIAL GUITAR:
>
> "My body is a torn mattress
> Disheveled throbbing place
> For the comings and goings
> Of loveless transients.
> The whole of me
> Is an unfurnished room
> FIlled with dank breath
> Escaping in gasps of nowhere.
> Before completely objective mirrors
> I have shot myself with my eyes,
> But death refused my advances.
> I have walked on my walls each night
> Through strange landscapes in my head.
> I have brushed my teeth with orange
peel,
> Iced with cold blood from the dripping
faucets.
> My face is covered with maps of dead
nations;
> My hair is littered with drying
ragweed.
> Bitter raisins drip from my nostrils
> While schools of glowing minnows swim
from my mouth.
> The nipples of my breast are
sun-browned cockleburrs;
> Long-forgotten Indian tribes fight
battles on my chest
> Unaware of the sunken ships rotting in
my stomach.
> My legs are charred remains of burned
cypress trees;
> My feet are covered with moss from
bayous, flowing across my floor.
> I can't go out anymore.
> I
shall sit on my ceiling.
> Would you wear my eyes?"
>
> Tell me that's not grrrreeaaattt
poetry!
>
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:42:41 +0100
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From: "Thomas E. Harberd"
<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dr. Destouches
In-Reply-To:
<970601153834_-1698738028@emout16.mail.aol.com>
On Sun, 1 Jun
1997, Dixon Edmiston wrote:
> I'm new so I
don't know if this has been hashed over before (pun intended),
> but where
does Celine fit in with the beats? Did he not influence JK and AG
> and WSB to
some extent? Just cu4~4> Celine
describing writers and
journalists who
boast of having abolished war:
> "They've never fucked, bucked,
hustled, muscled a damn thing! those
> be-peacocked
parakeets, not the least butt or babe, the least complicament,
> never
unfinagled, discombobbled the weakest mitigated litigation! Not a
> thing!
Never! short-sighted sleazes! Pencil-necked shitslingers!
> The fuming, destructing Furies of War
scoff at your woggish emotings to
> the ends of
hell! your silent, anathematic farting.
[snip]
I think it was
WSB who turned Kerouac and Ginsberg onto Celine when they
were at [insert
name of university which I have forgotten].
Tom H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:00:10 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
In a message
dated 97-06-01 02:00:41 EDT, you write:
<< .just
because someone wrote a book doesn't make them
instant celebrity. You will never attract real
Beat writers on this list
BECAUSE of Nicosia!!!!! >>
Happens all the
time! Wait 'till those "someones" make Clinton drop his
drawers. Then
y'all will see how the Age of Apostasy is come (has) already
fur sure. The old
news of great world powers at the bottom of a vodka glass.
"No missiles
now aimed at America." Fifty years under the symbolic phallic,
now we're waiting
to see what Paula Jones saw. What's the coming attraction?
Have to make a special police line to keep the
real beats from the list.
Make 'em feel at
home y'know. (shades of Neal) I didn't stop to see the old
bus ... Ohio has
too many white cars killing the animals. And the offical
seat belt sign
read "Fasten you're seat belt. It is OUR law" I said Na, Na,
Na, Na, up yours
and went done the road and saw that it's all going crazy. Mr
B. agreed. Then I
said it's already gone. too late. The public done took the
place apart.
Let's give Paula Jones and Bill Clinton a big hand and all sing,
"Gonna send
'em back to Arkansaw." Any real Beats out there? I just got off
the road and have
to take a real shit.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:13:53 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-01 02:00:41 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
.just because someone wrote a book doesn't make them
> instant celebrity. You will never attract
real Beat writers on this list
> BECAUSE of Nicosia!!!!! >>
>
> Happens all
the time! Wait 'till those "someones" make Clinton drop his
> drawers.
Then y'all will see how the Age of Apostasy is come (has) already
> fur sure.
The old news of great world powers at the bottom of a vodka glass.
> "No
missiles now aimed at America." Fifty years under the symbolic phallic,
> now we're
waiting to see what Paula Jones saw. What's the coming attraction?
> Have to make a special police line to keep
the real beats from the list.
> Make 'em
feel at home y'know. (shades of Neal) I didn't stop to see the old
> bus ... Ohio
has too many white cars killing the animals. And the offical
> seat belt
sign read "Fasten you're seat belt. It is OUR law" I said Na, Na,
> Na, Na, up
yours and went done the road and saw that it's all going crazy. Mr
> B. agreed.
Then I said it's already gone. too late. The public done took the
> place apart.
Let's give Paula Jones and Bill Clinton a big hand and all sing,
> "Gonna
send 'em back to Arkansaw." Any real Beats out there? I just got off
> the road and
have to take a real shit.
> Charles
Plymell
welcome
back!!!!!!!!!!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:23:05 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: www link page
Please work our
Beat site...thanks..
http://waterrowbooks.com
Jeffrey Weinberg
Beat-L T-shirt
organizer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:26:03 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gordon Legg
Carl -
I haven't
forgotten about G. Legge request. I'll be sending some suggestions
this week as soon
as web site bugs get worked out ...
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:38:25 EST
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From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
Giorno had a crab
cake with black beans, I had chesse enchildas, Grauerholtz
had fried
oysters. Everyone drank loads, except me, who filled up on black
coffee til my
ears were ringing! I forget what John Geiger had and David Ohle
too, they were at
the other end of the table.
DB
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:47:40 -0400
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From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Dr. Sax
In-Reply-To: <l03020901afb7ab581605@[206.25.67.103]>
I just joined the
list. (I DO hope the petty bickering is
dying down.
I've watched that
kind of obsessive behavior for years on BBS's & the
Net, and it's
tiresome. Can you NOT get outside your
own ego?)
BUT, I just finished
reading Doctor Sax for the 3rd or 4th time.
This
time through, I
was watching for bio stuff on Jack, however, as before;
I was struck by
his use of made-up words. I seriously
believe Jack had
a finer poetic
sense than he knew, and those made-up words are there
primarily because
they fit the meter of what he was writing.
He NEEDED
a word in that
particular place (mostly adjectives) but nothing fit, so
he made something
up of the proper number of syllables and of sound.
This is only MY
analysis. Any comments? Please?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:48:43 EST
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From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
JW,
Arizona Stae U
(in Tempe) does have a sinficant Burroughs collection but now,
Ohio State has
more. Did I mention that they offered it to Kansas State U who
turned it down? I
guess the guy who runs the special collections at OSU is
pretty hip and
was hot to trot for the collection. WSB had small flood in his
basement so they
thought it time to move the papers to higher ground! This deal
was actually made
a few yaers ago but they are just now getting around to
bringing it up
(flood prompted, I think, some of his papers did get wet). So
ASU would be
another source to check too, for Burroughs manuscripts.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:55:58 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dr. Sax
Yes, Dr Sax is a
great book. What you are saying is interesting.
I think
Old Angel
Midnight might be even more like this in terms of "made up" words.
My question is,
what words are you thinking of. I
haven't read Sax in years
and don't have a
copy.
Give us some
examples. Kerouac was multilingual and
there may be more to
the words than
simple sound and syllables.
At 09:47 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I just joined
the list. (I DO hope the petty bickering
is dying down.
>I've watched
that kind of obsessive behavior for years on BBS's & the
>Net, and it's
tiresome. Can you NOT get outside your
own ego?)
>
>BUT, I just
finished reading Doctor Sax for the 3rd or 4th time. This
>time through,
I was watching for bio stuff on Jack, however, as before;
>I was struck
by his use of made-up words. I seriously
believe Jack had
>a finer
poetic sense than he knew, and those made-up words are there
>primarily
because they fit the meter of what he was writing. He NEEDED
>a word in
that particular place (mostly adjectives) but nothing fit, so
>he made
something up of the proper number of syllables and of sound.
>
>This is only
MY analysis. Any comments? Please?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:05:49 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dr. Destouches
In a message
dated 97-06-01 20:55:50 EDT, you write:
<< I think
it was WSB who turned Kerouac and Ginsberg onto Celine when they
were at [insert name of university which I
have forgotten].
>>
When we first met
Allen made a special trip to the bookstore to buy me
Celine's book.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:04:36 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Beauty! That is
what killed the Beat List!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:07:34 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
MORE OXY THAN
MORON wrote:
>
> JW,
>
> Arizona Stae
U (in Tempe) does have a sinficant Burroughs collection but now,
> Ohio State
has more. Did I mention that they offered it to Kansas State U who
> turned it
down? I guess the guy who runs the special collections at OSU is
> pretty hip
and was hot to trot for the collection. WSB had small flood in his
> basement so
they thought it time to move the papers to higher ground! This
deal
> was actually
made a few yaers ago but they are just now getting around to
> bringing it
up (flood prompted, I think, some of his papers did get wet). So
> ASU would be
another source to check too, for Burroughs manuscripts.
>
> Dave B.
Kansas State just
spent their library budget for a millenium
building/expanding
the library. it is pretty. wonder what they'll put
in it. that would have been an hour away - i'm
crying. but it would
make more sense
that it was Kansas University in burroughs' lawrence
than kansas
state.... as an alum of K.U. if they turned it down I'm
pissed. though i do have good memories of playing in
Columbus once -
many many used
record stores back then. i might
actually have to plan a
road trip one of
these days/months/years ....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:13:32 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Dr. Destouches
In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:38:35 -0400
from <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>
Kerouac and
Ginsberg were both influenced by Celine.
Allen even interviewed Ce
line at one time
I believe. I'm sure there are details in
the biogrpahies.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:13:52 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Dr. Sax
In-Reply-To: <199706020155.SAA18374@hsc.usc.edu>
On Sun, 1 Jun
1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> Yes, Dr Sax
is a great book. What you are saying is interesting. I think
> Old Angel
Midnight might be even more like this in terms of "made up" words.
Well, I've read
all the Kerouac books, a couple bio's, lots of poetry,
etc. Started in the 50's. Climbing trees in the town green here in New
England to beat
on bongo drums to try to get someone to understand.
(Unfortunately,
the town cop never read any Kerouac.) In
short, I've
been reading and
re-reading this stuff for a number of years.
There's
more to it, of
course; but I've always been troubled by things like "the
great blowsy midnite
of the void in this world" (that is
NOT a quote,
it's an
example) Why "blowsy"? That's not a word. But it certainly
seems that the
term is necessary to the construction/rhythm of the
sentence.
> My question
is, what words are you thinking of. I
haven't read Sax in years
> and don't
have a copy.
Well, the
foregoing is a rather tepid example, but if you'd like to get
serious about
this, I haven't shelved the book yet.
> Give us some
examples. Kerouac was multilingual and
there may be more to
> the words
than simple sound and syllables.
Gahhhhh! That was my FIRST post, after ONE day on the
list. (I grew up
in a French-Canuk
family, too. Canadian French is part of
my linguistic
heritage. Trust his translations of his own words. They're idiomatic,
but true.) I really think Jack was trying to reach
beyond words and
language, hence
his fascination with music and poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:25:37 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing da bete
In-Reply-To: <009B5260.422969A0.128@kenyon.edu>
At 8:04 PM -0700
6/1/97, MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:
> Beauty! That
is what killed the Beat List!
no, blame it on
Dennis Rodman. he takes it out on the
road...
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:31:42 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Beauty
What? Jack's dog killed the list? And you all remember what Jack was doing wh
en beauty
died? Just trying to inject a little
humor folks.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:38:13 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
Comments: To:
pelliott@sunflower.com
Lena@sunflower.com:
Thanks for
(making) "me a bed right down on
the floor" as Woodie Guthrie
used to sing. Do
you know that old song? Second line "As I lay my head on a
bed on the
floor." Actually, it was for Billy, but I took it because he took
my bed in order
to watch T.V. And did you finished our popcorn? I think there
was some gum in
it. Yuk! Your cat peered at me during the night and woke me
up. Billy and I
moved the mattress back upstairs, which was harder that you
taking it
downstairs! I''ve moved a lot of floppy mattresses in my time. I
hate to move
floppy mattresses, but I guess I was born for it. Seems the cats
always have some
interest in the situation and usually get their tails
stepped on. Your
cat had to sleep right next to it and peer at me.
When we went to
see Mr. B, he stepped on his cat's tail and it screeched and
jumped striaght
up. I hate it when cats do that. Can't
they remember they
have tails or
what? Scaired the hell outta Billy and me.
Speaking of which
my cat is meowing and his tail is under my foot now. I'm
barefoot, though.
I hope you had a
good day in school. Tell them the
painter, Bottecelli sent
you.
Charles and Billy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:47:41 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Tony's Story and Gerry's
Dear Gerry:
Pam downloaded
your story about your father working the orchards and ending
up in San
Francisco in 1927. Was Sad Slim Smith in
Jack Black's You Can't
Win? Your
description sounds so close to that book.
I used to follow the
same hobo trails
with my older sister, when she wasn't working the houses.
This was in the
50s though, and when I took underage Pam into Mike's Pool
Hall in the early
60s it was still authentic, Caruso on the jukebox for a
dime, red
checkered tableclothes. Have you read Jack Black?
My recent trip of
what's out there now has still got me in shock. Too many
years under the
bridge. I'm glad I'm in Rip Van Winkle country.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:54:02 -0700
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
Any real Beats out there? I just got off
> the road and
have to take a real shit.
> Charles
Plymell
Charles,
Welcome
back. Any good scenes out on the old
road?
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:02:29 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
Michael
Buchenroth:
Thanks greatly
for making my words jump. I saw them at
Patricia's in
Lawrence. I have more pounding in my head. I've got to talk to you about.
James Grauerholz
was leaving Lawrence with a truckload of Burroughs material.
I gave him your
e-mail. I hope he got in touch with you. I think the Sam
Shusterman and
others you word jumped worked good and I think there is a
whole new
relationship to poetry that I would like to work with you on.
Doesn't poetry
mean to build and what else to build with but words. I think
there's something
happening here and will be in touch soon. Thanks to Michael
Stutz for turning
us on to it. I think it is an interesting way to access
language
especially for people whose brains work like that. Maybe James G.'s
brain will begin
to work like that if he listens to the trucker's CB's out of
Chicago and
Columbus! I didn't ask him how big a rig he was driving to
Columbus. I
started to ask him if it was an 18 wheeler.
How many archives
would that hold?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:16:40 -0400
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From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: a different thread
At 12:27 PM
6/1/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:
>No more will
I mention a thing...
>
>How do people
feel about Part 3 of Visions of Cody? "Frisco: The Tape":
>Does it add
or detract from the book? I feel that Kerouac's writing in the
>first two
parts, the realization of his spontaneous prose method, is pure,
>driven
genius. The addition of tape transcripts however changes the focus of
>the vision of
Cody.....but I don't know if it gives him any new
>dimension...Any
takes on this?
>
What's this? A real discussion--YAY!
Hmmm...well, i
think the idea of the transcription really adds to the book,
but the reality
of the 100+ pages of dialogue does detract a little from the
continuity of the
novel. _Kerouac's Crooked Road_ by Tim
Hunt is a
wonderful
critique of VoC and it gives many reasons for the necessity of the
transcription. The tape recorder is an attempt to find
something objective
in life. The conversations are a confrontation between
the image of Cody
that jack has
produced in the first two Parts and the reality of Cody that
is appearing
now. Cody becomes less visionary than
the original image was.
(all this is
paraphrasing of Hunt). i actually
skipped the tape section
when i read VoC
for the first time. There are some
really interesting
parts, but as a
whole it lacks Kerouac's prose which is what amazes me about
the rest of the
novel. The tapes are almost a precursor
to some Warhol-type
ideas. I would say that the tapes do give a new
vision of Cody in that they
remove Jack's
conception of Cody as the ideal American man
(kind of). The
real Cody is
still amazing but not quite as amazing as the Cody that is the
hero of Jack's
imagination.
-matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:17:10 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-06-01 02:00:41 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
.just because someone wrote a book doesn't make them
> instant celebrity. You will never attract
real Beat writers on this
> list
> BECAUSE of Nicosia!!!!! >>
>
> Happens all
the time! Wait 'till those "someones" make Clinton drop
> his
> drawers.
Then y'all will see how the Age of Apostasy is come (has)
> already
> fur sure.
The old news of great world powers at the bottom of a vodka
> glass.
> "No
missiles now aimed at America." Fifty years under the symbolic
> phallic,
> now we're
waiting to see what Paula Jones saw. What's the coming
> attraction?
> Have to make a special police line to keep
the real beats from the
> list.
> Make 'em
feel at home y'know. (shades of Neal) I didn't stop to see
> the old
> bus ... Ohio
has too many white cars killing the animals. And the
> offical
> seat belt
sign read "Fasten you're seat belt. It is OUR law" I said
> Na, Na,
> Na, Na, up
yours and went done the road and saw that it's all going
> crazy. Mr
> B. agreed.
Then I said it's already gone. too late. The public done
> took the
> place apart.
Let's give Paula Jones and Bill Clinton a big hand and
> all sing,
> "Gonna
send 'em back to Arkansaw." Any real Beats out there? I just
> got off
> the road and
have to take a real shit.
> Charles
Plymell
Charles:
Is it possible to
define a real shit. I mean some would
say that Oliver
North is
one. Others say that he is an AMERICAN
hero for lying to
Congress and
shredding documents sought by lawful subpenis.
Then they
want to subpenis
Clinton? The question is, will Hillary
shred the
evidence, or
maybe hide it in a Bobbit file till after the trial?
Some people say
that Andrew Jackson is a real AMERICAN
hero because he
killed a bunch of
redcoats AFTER the damn war was over.
Maybe, others
would say that he
was a real shit for disenfranchising the Seminole
Indians and
destroying their life cause we white boys wanted Florida
now.
How do you define
a real shit. Hard, diarreah, long,
little balls, and
what about Jackie
O, did she even shit, or fart. What if
you were at a
dinner party and
Jackie O farted, would you stike a match and say, hey
girl lets light
that thing next time. If you did would
Trumane Capote
think you were a
real shit.
I don't know
about this real thing anymore.
We live in a
world of zero tolerence. If a kid that
works at Best Buy
brings a box
cutter to school because he forgot to leave it in his car.
Hell, expell him,
take away his graduation, file criminal charges, and
then pat
ourselves on the back and say, we are some real fine AMERICANS
and we are the
REAL SHITS of this world.
I mean this is
just a thought I had, and I don't even know what it
means, Charles,
can you explain this shit to me? It is
REAL SHIT isn't
it??
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:28:21 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Old Road
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
In a message
dated 97-06-01 23:00:10 EDT, you write:
<< Any good
scenes out on the old road? >>
oh god, I'm still
in shock. It would take a book, hee hee.
I think things
are speeding up
again and you know whut/ It's over the edge.. Two or three
places remain: A
One Building town in highlands of Montana,
a hotel in New
Mexico with Billy
the Kid's, Jesse James room et al. and holes still shot in
the ceiling. And
an onery old man in a Sears Robuck house in Kansas who still
has sparks in his
space eyes, who always asks such proper questions they have
a way of sounding
odd. "Why did they shoot at the ceiling?" "Hell, I don't
know."
"I hope their was no one on the second floor." A chuckle.
BTW Thanks for
the Zap. I haven't had time to look at the mail yet, but I'll
be going thru it
in days to come. I'll be sending some snail. I still have a
lovely letter
from Glenn I have to answer. I wish he'd get on the list.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:31:12 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
In a message
dated 97-06-01 23:06:55 EDT, you write:
<< but it
would
make more sense that it was Kansas University
in burroughs' lawrence
than kansas state.... as an alum of K.U. if
they turned it down I'm
pissed. >>
Yeh, they didn't
know what they had with Terrence Williams (librarian in the
60s and 70s).
BTW, McCrary that Williams had taken over the dry out tank in
Minnesota.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:07:24 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Lena@sunflower.com:
> Thanks for
(making) "me a bed right down on
the floor" as Woodie Guthrie
> used to
sing. Do you know that old song? Second line "As I lay my head on a
> bed on the
floor." Actually, it was for Billy, but I took it because he took
> my bed in
order to watch T.V. And did you finished our popcorn? I think there
> was some gum
in it. Yuk! Your cat peered at me during the night and woke me
> up. Billy
and I moved the mattress back upstairs, which was harder that you
> taking it
downstairs! I''ve moved a lot of floppy mattresses in my time. I
> hate to move
floppy mattresses, but I guess I was born for it. Seems the cats
> always have
some interest in the situation and usually get their tails
> stepped on.
Your cat had to sleep right next to it and peer at me.
> When we went
to see Mr. B, he stepped on his cat's tail and it screeched and
> jumped
striaght up. I hate it when cats do
that. Can't they remember they
> have tails
or what? Scaired the hell outta Billy and me.
> Speaking of
which my cat is meowing and his tail is under my foot now. I'm
> barefoot,
though.
> I hope you
had a good day in school. Tell them the
painter, Bottecelli sent
> you.
> Charles and
Billy
it sounds like a
wonderful place to rest a weary little head.
i'm
looking forward
to doing so this weekend.
i knew i'd missed
your words on my computer screen - but didn't realized
how much until
they started flowing again.
too bad the
Peters thing fell through. I hope you
bought a nice Hat in
Wichita.
take care,
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:22:48 -0700
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From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: a different thread
At 12:27 PM
6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>No more will
I mention a thing...
>
>How do people
feel about Part 3 of Visions of Cody? "Frisco: The Tape":
>Does it add
or detract from the book? I feel that Kerouac's writing in the
>first two
parts, the realization of his spontaneous prose method, is pure,
>driven
genius. The addition of tape transcripts however changes the focus of
>the vision of
Cody.....but I don't know if it gives him any new
>dimension...Any
takes on this?
>
>
getting onto this
a bit late, however, it's what makes the whole book tick,
don't you
think? maybe what the thing is all
about? isn't this the vision
he is speaking of
prior? maybe I'm a fool, but that's my
hit. after all,
the book is
called Visions of Cody (Neal).
all the best
xxxooo
s.a.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:19:53 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Site I found
I just found this
site at Cal-Berkeley on the beats. Does
anyone know
if UMASS of
Lowell has a web site?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:48:16 -0700
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Other biographies of Kerouac
June 1, 1997
Dear Beat-List
friends:
I returned from a holiday down in
Monterey, a birthday party for one
of my daughter's
friends, to find that a personal threat had been sent to me
on my private
email, by one of the persons from the Beat-List who has been
steadily
harassing me for the past month.
I will report this threat to the FBI
tomorrow, and suggest that that
person, as well
as the people he has been associating with recently, be
thoroughly
investigated.
Little did I suspect such things lay in
wait for me when I joined
the Beat-List!
However, there has been a great deal of
satisfaction as
well--learning
from others and sharing my own learning--this is one of the
things I live
for.
One of the recent charges against me
concerns the new Kerouac
biographies that
are now appearing, especially the one to come soon from Mr.
Ellis
Amburn. The charge is that I fear these
biographies.
On the contrary, I welcome them. I have cooperated with every major
writer who has
come to me for information about Kerouac.
In fact, I try to
answer questions
from every single student who writes or calls me--but the
truth is, there
are many of these, and I don't always have time. But I try.
I cooperated with Steven Turner during
the writing of his book
ANGELHEADED
HIPSTER, and he thanks me profusely in his book. I would gladly
have cooperated
with Ellis Amburn, only he never came to me.
I was told,
from a source in
Lowell, that Mr. Amburn was warned not to contact me.
It puzzles me, in fact, that Mr. Amburn
did not make use of the
MEMORY BABE
archive at U Mass, Lowell, since he began his book BEFORE my
archive was
closed.
FOR ANYONE WITH A LITTLE SENSE, IT
SHOULD BE CLEAR THAT BY FIGHTING
TO MAKE MY OWN
MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE ACCESSIBLE ONCE AGAIN, AND BY FIGHTING TO
SEE THAT JACK
KEROUAC'S OWN ARCHIVE IS MADE ACCESSIBLE, I AM TRYING TO HELP,
NOT HINDER,
FUTURE KEROUAC SCHOLARS AND BIOGRAPHERS.
The worst thing that could befall
future Kerouac biographers would
be that they are
kept from seeing any original Kerouac material.
The 300 interviews I did with 300
people who knew Kerouac are
extremely
precious, and would be tremendously helpful to any would-be
Kerouac
biographer. 100 of those people are
already dead and cannot be
re-interviewed. One of the 300 just died a week ago--Jay Pendergast.
I am fighting to see that those 300
interviews (and all the other
material in the
MEMORY BABE archive) are made available again to these
would-be
biographers--either in Lowell or, if necessary, another library.
I am also fighting to see that
Kerouac's own papers are available to
scholars and
would-be biographers. THE BEST WAY FOR A
FUTURE BIOGRAPHER TO
"BEAT"
MEMORY BABE WOULD BE TO STUDY AND MAKE USE OF THE THOUSANDS OF
DOCUMENTS FROM
JACK KEROUAC'S OWN ARCHIVE--DOCUMENTS I NEVER HAD ACCESS TO.
If I really wanted to see MEMORY BABE
remain the "best" Kerouac
biography, I'd be
happy to see Mr. Sampas dispersing the Kerouac archive, so
that no future
writer could see the whole thing, and I'd be happy that no
"competition"
could get in to hear my 300 taped interviews.
Doesn't that make sense?
SO, ODD AS IT MAY SEEM, MR. SAMPAS AND
I ARE IN AGREEMENT IN HOPING
THAT MEMORY BABE
WILL SOON BE SURPASSED.
The way we differ is this: Mr. Sampas
believes he alone should pick
the writer that
will beat MEMORY BABE; and so he gives only one or two or
three chosen
people (who meet his specifications) the right to look at Jack
Kerouac's archive
of private papers. And by doing so, he
believes he will
help create a
championship book.
I say, YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE NEXT
GREAT KEROUAC BIOGRAPHER WILL BE,
AND THAT'S WHY
YOU HAVE TO OPEN ACCESS TO THE KEROUAC ARCHIVE TO EVERYONE.
How does he know that some unknown kid
out in Idaho or Iowa or
Detroit might not
have the right combination of intelligence, empathy,
scholarship, and
intuition to write the next great Kerouac biography? HOW
CAN HE BE SURE IT
IS ONLY THE ONE OR TWO OR THREE PEOPLE HE HAS CHOSEN TO
SHOW THE ARCHIVE
TO THAT ARE THE SURE WINNERS?
Among the great literary biographies of
this century are Richard
Ellmann's JAMES
JOYCE; Mark Schorer's SINCLAIR LEWIS; and Leon Edel's HENRY
JAMES. None of those biographers was
"chosen" by a literary executor as the
right man to do
the job. All of them took on their task
out of a strong
passion for their
subject; all of them were self-motivated.
John Sampas cannot create the next
Richard Ellmann or Mark Schorer
or Leon Edel just
by willing it to happen. The best way
for him to see that
such a person
appears--in the arena of Kerouac biographies--is for him to
make all of
Kerouac's papers available to every serious, credentialed writer
who needs to use
them. And also for him to retract his
threat against the
MEMORY BABE
archive at U Mass, Lowell.
--Gerry
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:45:07 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Poem from 3 months ago
About three
months ago, I read a Poem by Hondo Crouch about Luckenback
TX. As a result, I wrote this which is an obvious
rip off of Upon
Looking into Jr.s
Homer, I mean, Chapman's homer.
This is draft 2
of a work in progress. Somebody said
please post some
poetry and real
shit. If this ain't it, let me know and
I will stop.
Texas ain't Nothing to Me
(Upon reading Luchenbach Moon by Hondo
Crouch)
Lots of people
talk about Texas like it is alive or something.
I mean, hell, I
been down there and it don't seem so special to me.
I can drive about
two miles from my house in South Kakalaki,
Get on I-20 and
drive right straight to Dallas.
Hoss, I been down
there.
Been to Dallas,
Houston and Corpus Christi,
(The body of
Christ).
When I was in
Corpus Christi, I knew this girl,
And man she was
beautiful.
But, she thought
she was a surfer.
(Wanted to listen
to "Caroline, No")
Man, Folly Beach
has got better waves than that!
Texas ain't so
big.
Plus, we ain't
too happy up here with ole Phil Gramm.
I mean he goes up
to Washington and preaches all this budget stuff,
And what does he
do, tries to build a big ass accelerator ain't nobody
needs.
To top that off,
he builds some navy bases nobody needs,
Probably close to
Beaumont, and takes everything out of Charleston.
Then he comes
here wanting us to vote for him. Yeah,
right!
Nah, all I
remember about Texas is that if you don't
Wear sunglasses
in Houston, then you can't see cause
Of all the glass
buildings reflecting the sun.
And all I
remember about Dallas is that
They is real
jealous of Houston.
No, there was one
more thing.
When I stayed at
the Plaza or something like that,
They was having a
photo session during happy hour,
And that Nunn
fellow was right, pretty women.
I just remember
miles and miles of highway.
And then to top
it off, I had to go through Lake Charles.
Man, I can't
figure Robbie Robertson.
That's for sure.
Another thing I
know about Texas is that it is contradictory.
I mean Tejas
means friends and that is their nickname,
But their State
bird is the Mockingbird.
Ain't no meaner
bird, ever see one get after a cat?
Light that mother
up!
Contradicting
themselves and a mocking the rest of us.
That's the way I
see it.
Nah, there's some
more stuff I know about Texas.
Jack Jack Walker
ain't from there,
But he might as
well be.
And there's a
whole lot of people who come
Down there that
make some awful fine music.
Some of em get credit and some of em don't.
Yeah, they make
some good music down there all right.
But that ain't
nothing new.
And it seems that
I remember that one of our South Kakalaki
Boys was down
there at that Alamo thing with his running mate,
Davey Crockett
when those boys put up a good fight.
Can't ever
remember if it was Bowie or Travis though.
And I think a
bunch of our boys went down there after the war,
Cause people from
round here ain't too good at giving up.
Sometimes that's
good and sometimes that's bad.
I guess there's
probably too much South Carolina down there.
That's probably
what always makes me want
To get back to
the Midlands here.
In 2 hours, I can
either be at the beach,
Or up in the
Mountains, the Blue Ridge boys.
And there are
some mean ass white boy hillbillies up round
Cleveland and
Wahalla. Mean boys. But they leave you
Alone as long as
you show them the same courtesy.
And in 2 and =
hours, boys, I can be on the white water.
Yeah, Texas is
ok. And I guess that friendship
And Mockingbirds
can coexist.
And I guess that
I ain't ever been out to El Capitan,
And I would like
to see that.
And I ain't never
been to Austin, El Paso (the ghost of
Marty Robbins
lives there I'm told), or lots of other places.
So, I might just
go back some time.
Yeah I might.
But hell, I done
been to Texas,
And it don't mean
nothing to me.
Guess home is
where the heart is.
And rambling can
take you lots of places,
But home
generally ain't one of them.
So, I tip my hat
to that great lady, Tejas,
But South
Carolina is the place for me.
And it ain't so
bad.
Why we got some
great golf courses.
But I'll tell you
one thing,
I ain't going to
Beaumont if I can help it.
So, I just gonna
sit right here and
Wait on Jacky
Jack to make it on down
To Beaufort town.
See ya then
folks.
See ya then.
Oh yeah, there's
one more thing,
I guess I ain't
never seen that Luckenback moon,
But I felt the
shivers.
Yo, Hondo done
got me right,
I will come on
back to Tejas,
At least for one
moon light night.
Bentz Kirby
) 1997
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:46:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: www page
If anyone is
interested, I have finished round one of revisions and the
Beat link page is
in gear.
Check it out if
you want, and send me new url's. Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:17:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
Hey Matt,
Don't know if
anyone ever commented on your note about the Ginsberg Memorial
as everyone has
been ducking for cover the last few days, diving behind
stagecoaches and
jumping into water troughs to avoid getting shot, but I for
one absolutely
_loved_ that piece.
It's neat that
Natalie Merchant appreciated your comment that her song had an
impact on your
life. And I thought the story about
Allen inscribing Howl
with a
"Jaded? Hardly." along with a bathroom stall drawing was hilarious.
The cops pulling
you over was pretty funny too, although my heart was racing
for you so I bet
it was only fun after it was over.
Nice story.
ALSO, we all have
our own issues with our moms (Gee, do you think Allen or
Jack or Neal had
any issues there?), but your mom's sig file is pretty
cool... "Everyone takes the limits of his own
vision for the limits of the
world".
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:14:24 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
June 1, 1997
TY wrote:
>
> to do so is a crime against the writer. if
i had even the slightest
>suspicion
that notes, sketches, drafts, anything i'd written and not
>willingly
offered to the public as a whole would be rummaged through
>after my
death, i'd burn them before i kicked. we're living in a time
>when,
especially in the u.s., everything is talked about, reported on,
>analyzed and
exposed for everyone to look at under their cracked $2
>microscopes.
it's unfortunate really; the self-deceptive reason for this
>trend seems
to be a search for absolute truths, which is a waste of time
>in itself.
.... so what if
someone
>slanders you?
take it in stride and shrug it off like so many
>mosquitoes
Dear TY:
Jack Kerouac is on record in several
places, including a letter to
John Clellon
Holmes, in June, 1962, saying that he has filed all his papers
in file drawers
as "a goldmine of information for scholars," and that he
wanted future
biographers to have access to them.
Should we not respect his
wishes?
As for "taking in stride" a
systematic campaign of verbal abuse, the
most vile insults
and accusations, every day for a month--well, like the
Indians used to
say, "walk a mile in my moccassins and then come back and
talk to me."
The things that have been done to me
have been done for a particular
reason--to
silence me--just as the personal threat I received backchannel
tonight was sent
to silence me. This is not the kind of
thing that one
"shrugs
off" lightly.
Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:30:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "P.A.Maher"
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
At 10:14 PM
6/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
> June 1, 1997
>TY wrote:
>>
>> to do so is a crime against the writer. if
i had even the slightest
>>suspicion
that notes, sketches, drafts, anything i'd written and not
>>willingly
offered to the public as a whole would be rummaged through
>>after my
death, i'd burn them before i kicked. we're living in a time
>>when,
especially in the u.s., everything is talked about, reported on,
>>analyzed
and exposed for everyone to look at under their cracked $2
>>microscopes.
it's unfortunate really; the self-deceptive reason for this
>>trend
seems to be a search for absolute truths, which is a waste of time
>>in
itself.
>.... so what
if someone
>>slanders
you? take it in stride and shrug it off like so many
>>mosquitoes
>
>Dear TY:
> Jack Kerouac is on record in several
places, including a letter to
>John Clellon
Holmes, in June, 1962, saying that he has filed all his papers
>in file
drawers as "a goldmine of information for scholars," and that he
>wanted future
biographers to have access to them.
Should we not respect his
>wishes?
> As for "taking in stride" a
systematic campaign of verbal abuse, the
>most vile
insults and accusations, every day for a month--well, like the
>Indians used
to say, "walk a mile in my moccassins and then come back and
>talk to
me."
> The things that have been done to me
have been done for a particular
>reason--to
silence me--just as the personal threat I received backchannel
>tonight was
sent to silence me. This is not the kind
of thing that one
>"shrugs
off" lightly.
> Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia
>There you
go...the paranoid delusion.....my "threat" was to counteract your
"critical"
biography with a series of academic treatises that will both take
issue with and
validate my argument against your thesis'. This will
encompass a
privately published pamphlet in which I will show my work. That
is what I meant
by "not on the Beat-L" that I will pursue my actions. What a
jerk! Knock
yourself out Nicosia....sincerely Paul..."the mercenary thug".
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:40:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Estate Potatoe War (with an E)
First, I want to
state that I am glad there is a venue like BEAT-L where a
public forum
could be held on the estate discussion. What happens to Jack's
papers is
important to many people, and I'm happy for the opportunity to
discuss it and
hear other people's opinion. It is also good because people's
statements are on
public record as to where they stand on issues. This way
everybody hears
what everybody said about who, and how it was said. Private
posts would have
allowed for more insinuation with no opportunity for
response.
Second: I'm sorry
that people who were not interested in this discussion had
to be innundated
with it, but it seems like it is almost over.
Third: My
personal desire is to see the Kerouac's papers end up in an
institution where
they would be available for study and review. However,
there is no ONE
person who represents me in this purpose, nor is there one
person out there
who I feel is the person who should be the spokesperson on
this issue (even
if they did write a biography). There is more then one
person in the
world who wishes to see the archives end up in a public
institution.
Next: Just
wondering. Suppose Person A is discussing something with Person B,
and asks Person B
to prove something. And Person B proves it by using an
excerpt from a
letter written by Person A. And Person
A's response is that
they are going to
sue for Libel, slander, and copyright infringement. Does
anybody find that
a little unusual?
Next: Yet Person
A goes around making all sorts of claims without any proof
and keeps
repeating them over and over (such as who is working for who). Many
of these claims
are incorrect, yet this doesn't stop Person A from stating
them or repeating
then.
Next: Should all
parties of a discussion be held to the same standards of
behaviour when it
comes to argument or discussion? The
answer is yes UNLESS
a party claims
that they are operating on a higher standard of behaviour and
are using that as
part of their argument. If a party claims that they are
operating under
higher standards of behaviour, then I believe it is
acceptable to put
that party to a higher level of scrutiny.
Next: Why do I
bother to post on this issue? Because the issue seems to have
evolved into a
contest - us vs. them, that has separated everybody onto one
side or the
other. This is not a contest. There are more then two sides to
this issue. I am
not an us or them. I am not a number. And I refuse to be
defined by
somebody else's definition. My basic
statement is this: Support
of a particular
issue does not require the support of any particular person
espousing that
issue. They are two separate issues. My lack of support for a
particular person
does not diminish in any way my support for a particular
issue. Nor do I
believe that support for a particular person indicates that
one is more
dedicated to that issue (such of the
preservation of the Kerouac
archives).
Last: The above
is all my biased opinions and observations.
Extra Credit:
This is an extra credit question for somebody who has way too
much time on
their hands, and way too much of an twisted interest in this
topic: Determine the total number of times the
various parties to the estate
discussion have
used: a) name calling; b) SHOUTING; c) put downs; d)
expletives
deleted. Please break it down by person, time of day, excuse
given, air
temperature, and wind velocity. Please draw your own conclusions.
Please use a #2
pencil, no talking, you may begin now.
so it goes,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:13:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: jeff/water row/cranial guitar
In-Reply-To: <l03020900afb7ce8cd095@[141.224.144.84]>
jeff:
copies in stock?
price?
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:11:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
Thanks for the
letter!
Hi,
I had a great day
at school,
But it is now
summer so I AM FREE of the horrible place of work!
Oh my I am sorry
about the bed thing.
I wish I could
jump on it right now!
I am having a
pretty great day!
Remeber I am
younge if the song is old how could I rember it?
I wish you could
have seen Sue (the beast we call our cat) today she was
nice to the
little baby that lives next door it was so cute but then she
became unhappy
and left the area and the baby tried to fellow her it was
not a pertty
picture, it was geting ugly when the cat batted at her so
mom picked up the
Marget(the little baby) and lead her away for the cat,
and to the girl
swing on the rope. I think she was safer next to the
swing girl not
our cat! That peers at people while they sleep.
Oh, and thanks
for the dove bar I ate it on a field trip, lunch.
Well I loved
meeting you, you are very interesting. All though I talked
to Billy alitlly
more then you I think you both are really great people.
I do not know
what to say. I liked meeting you and bye it is time for my
mom to get back
on her computer.
Lena
P.S.Why did you
e-mail my mom and not me?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:16:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
In-Reply-To: <009B525C.99AA5EE0.20@kenyon.edu>
db!
thankyou for
menu.
btw how was the
rest of evening?
thanks for the
smile..
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:27:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: list in fighting and fbi
In-Reply-To:
<199706020448.VAA14566@norway.it.earthlink.net>
mr nicosia:
i know you are
greatly vexed. but to call in the fbi is just too much for me.
these guys dont
just go after the one, which will mean all of list shall be
open to said
agents.
they will be
readin all; much talk here has been about 'relaxing' with
mother nature.
this is reaching
the heights of wagnerian opera,
this tempest in a
teapot.
i've had enough
in my time of tapped phones and the like.
they wont just
investigate a few fellows.
i dont want them
reading my mail.
so this may be a
sign off.
bill, dont unsub
me. i'll do it myself when i see just how this is going.
sadly,
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:55:34 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: humor on the list
In-Reply-To: <33923B35.8CE12D63@scsn.net>
>
>Is it
possible to define a real shit. I mean
some would say that Oliver
>North is
one. Others say that he is an AMERICAN
hero for lying to
>Congress and
shredding documents sought by lawful subpenis
Then they
^^^^^^^^
>want to
subpenis Clinton? The question is, will
Hillary shred the
^^^^^^^^
>evidence, or
maybe hide it in a Bobbit file till after the trial?
am i the only one
who finds it amusing that a lawyer spells subpeona's as
"subpenis'?
or is it because
its 4am
and ive had
wayyyyyyy too much caffine
and my mouth is
dry from too many cigarettes?
or among other
things?
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you -me
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye mirror->
http://www.interlog.com/~lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:00:27 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: threats
If i got a veiled
threat, on private e-mail, after the acrimony shown by
many on this
list, I would take it serious. After gerry warns the guy
that he would not
take that crap, the guy admits that it was him but
that he was
paronoid because what he really meant was uh something else
man,
oh, we were
talking about soemthing else finally and then you pulled one
more thing to
make this fight go on. paul why tell us, tell gerry what
you really meant,
better yet...
the person who
wrote this message is a real person who uses one of the
many names that
really belong to her, and i will stand up for honor,
honesty, and giving
a shit no matter
patricia,
even though i am
beginning to like the name fatty patty, if it means
that i stand for
talking about issues and that bothers the sniveling
cowards that need
to spew hate and nastiness into any environment they
can intrude in.
A great man once
said, never call the police unless you have some idea
of what they will
do if they come, and its what you want them to do.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:22:46 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: things to do while waiting for you beat-l
mail to download
In-Reply-To:
<199706020448.VAA14566@norway.it.earthlink.net>
dear friends,
members, countrymen et al.
since i caused a
ruckus a week or two back with what i had to say, instead
of calming things
down, it seems ot have gotten worse. I
then went away to
baycon last
weekend (nothing beats stress then drinking with klingions!),
come home to find
more mail. Gone 36 hours tops and close to 300 messages
from the beat-l
ALONE came through.
I purposely
didn't reply to any, and let it back up. all week.
nothing changed.
we got the kids
still fighting over things that have been blown out of
proportion so
badly that the original arguments have long been delted. new
voices have
stepped in, old voices have left. some just unsubscribed for
the hell of it.
bill steps in. we have a renegade lawyer who first stepped
up as to quill
the battle, and now sends us pages upon pages of his poetry
and denies
responsiblity. we've got people who are seriously trying to talk
about beat stuff,
but yet it still keeps going on. the war. people are
fleeing. ego's
are getting out of hand.
the participants
(me included) are just as bad for putting out two cents
in. you get hurt
when you try to care.
so i came up with
a list of things to do while we await the end of the battle:
Things to I do
while waiting for my beat-l mail downloads:
1. check other
email accounts.
2. call old
friends on the phone
3. write poetry
4. work on my
website
5. get pissed off
because the ftp server is down and i can't update my website
6. do my nails
7. fight with
significant other
8. make out with
significant other
9. search the web
for interesting places
10. clean off my
harddrive
11. check to see
if mail is done downloading (nope!)
12. torture the
cat for digging his nails into my thighs
13. torture bf
for sending me email when he sits 4 feet from me
14. check to see
if mail is done yet (nope!)
15. geton irc and
harass people there.
16. paint my
nails an interesting color
17. measure the
living room for new carpte
18. check to see
if mail is done yet (nope!)
19. do laundry
20. finish
college
21. save the
world
23. write a best
selling book
24. get involved
in a few reletionships
25. check mail
again ITS DONE!
(this is humor
folks. it doesn't really take that long for the mail to
download)
disclaim sadness
that i had to search inbetween all the clutter to find the
goodposts. Neat
sites malcs and jeffrey (when are you going to have the
content pages
up?!?!?) good conversation maybe.
then this:
At 09:48 PM
6/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
June 1, 1997
>Dear
Beat-List friends:
> I returned from a holiday down in
Monterey, a birthday party for one
>of my
daughter's friends, to find that a personal threat had been sent to me
>on my private
email, by one of the persons from the Beat-List who has been
>steadily
harassing me for the past month.
> I will report this threat to the FBI
tomorrow, and suggest that that
>person, as
well as the people he has been associating with recently, be
>thoroughly
investigated.
> Little did I suspect such things lay in
wait for me when I joined
>the
Beat-List!
Mr nicosia:
this is not to be
malicious, but email threats do not fall under the fbi
juristdictions.
sorry to break it to you. the most you can do is report the
person to their
isp and have the system admins take care of it. And they
will tell you the
most you can do is a: not reply to the person (no matter
how BADLY YOU
WANT TO) and save the mail for further use (if the person
continues, you
have a documented case) or just simply delete it. Even if
the person made a
death threat, its the same as a harassing phone call,
falling under the
communications jurisdictions. Just ignore it. If its one
threat, then your
through with the person forever. if not, then you take it
to the isp they
belong to, and again, show them the email they sent. If
they continue to
be persistant, they system adminstrator at BEST will
disable their
account. Majority of the time, the threats are empty as to
scare the person
(being you).
And to anyone
worried baout someone reading their email, i hate to break it
to you again, but
email is not a safe means of communication. Anyone with a
bit of technical
knowledge can read your email. The only sure sign is by
encrypting it
with PGP (pretty good privacy), so its best to never say
anything in email
you wouldn't say on the phone. Nothing is secure in our
cyber world. No
matter how much you want to believe it, nothing is safe
ehre in the cyber
world. we are all naked and vulnerable as a new born babe.
Your message
dated Mon, 02 Jun 1997 03:55:34 -0700 with subject "humor on
the list" has been successfully distributed
to the BEAT-L list (176
recipients).
and again, the
list has been under 200 for some time. and its getting
dangerously low.
so please, for
the sake of whose a rat and whose not. can those involved in
the politics take
it somewhere like privately? before there is nothing left
of this list
anymore?
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you -me
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
mirror->
http://www.interlog.com/~lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:57:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: humor on the list
Lisa M. Rabey
wrote:
>
> >
> >Is it
possible to define a real shit. I mean
some would say that Oliver
> >North is
one. Others say that he is an AMERICAN
hero for lying to
> >Congress
and shredding documents sought by lawful subpenis Then they
>
^^^^^^^^
> >want to
subpenis Clinton? The question is, will
Hillary shred the
> ^^^^^^^^
> >evidence,
or maybe hide it in a Bobbit file till after the trial?
>
> am i the
only one who finds it amusing that a lawyer spells subpeona's as
>
"subpenis'?
> or is it
because its 4am
> and ive had
wayyyyyyy too much caffine
> and my mouth
is dry from too many cigarettes?
> or among
other things?
>
> ttfn.
>
> lisa
> --
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to
hate you
> and yet that is all i can
show you -me
>
>
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
mirror->
>
http://www.interlog.com/~lisa
my impression was
the spelling was deliberate. of course,
the rationale
for this
deliberate decision may rest deeply imbedded somewhere in his
or our collective
psyches.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:59:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: threats
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> A great man
once said, never call the police unless you have some idea
> of what they
will do if they come, and its what you want them to do.
Sounds like words
of advice from a wise sage.
david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:45:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> db!
> thankyou for
menu.
> btw how was
the rest of evening?
> thanks for
the smile..
> mc
I appreciate
hearing about the food, I found it interesting the number
of people the
list has helped to become better acquainted, the beat-l
multigeneration
has expanded my understanding of the literature and the
people.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:51:48 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Organization:
Brooklyn College Library
Subject: List changes
Hi folks,
Excuse me while I
pull on my hip boots to wade in here.
Effective
immediately, all replies to postings on beat-l will go to the
original sender,
NOT the list, unless otherwise specified.
fred
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:43:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes
Comments: To:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <338F01AD.5EA1@pacbell.net>
On Fri, 30 May
1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Jeff Taylor
wrote:
>
>
> > Some of
the people WSB mentions as having read were concerned with these
> >
questions too.....Alfred Korzybski, Julian Jaynes.....I haven't read
> >
Korzybski yet...
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> It is nice
to see someone else who has read the Jaynes book.
James I read J
Jaynes' book in 1981 and again this past spring. I agree
with cha wholly!
I have also read Korzyksi's "Science and Sanity" a few
times initially
gathering understanding for a thesis I wrote. The
International Society
for General Semantics maintains a vast resource of
other G.S.
material, if you like Korzybski. If you or anyone has
interest,
www.isgs.com will get you there. Their Quarterly, "Etc." I
consider a
necessary read to my mental energy. Lately, at times, it
arrives a lower
octane than in past, but "isn't" most fuel these days?
Christ the DEA
really has script writer's shake'n, ya cain't get shit,
anymore, unless
ya grow it yourself! It's no damn wonder those pharmacist
confuse 3 times a
week or 4 times a day with all this fear about! The
propaganda war
waged upon us adipex'd, ritalin'd, redux'd, fastin'd,
Christ
hydrocordone me down here! The boy, the girl, fastin, ritalin,
dilantin,
insulin, vicodin, ES, nitro gylcerin! stroked...valium,
percocet,
darvocet, 8 bits of the octet, the server crashes, Boolean
subnet, another
damn applet, ode to the internet.. my engines a knocking,
rap'n and tap'n
need'n higher octane, increased ratio...oh increase the
octane..."Etc."
still will fill the tank, E-Prime less or not! Modern
folks' Gods speak
to them from the pumps! Green square letters flash'n
by, above the
debit, edit card insert card here, histories revealed,
kept, brother
pump fill me up! Octaneless civil obedience... their'
build'n stick
space shuttle sculptures, parades with green dinos,
Sinclairless,
Pure Oil ain't so pure if you can even find among the muck
such a place long
that yellow brick freeway, Getty bought Gulfless
society, pray to
the pump, fill er up! Jaynes' consciousness evolution
still evolves
toward who knows what the DEA will do?
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:07:34 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re:
Review
In-Reply-To:
<970601170844_1523731933@emout18.mail.aol.com>
>Review-L
Dawn,
BookZen is
interestd in reviews. Not sure what your msg reprsents. Could
you elaborate?
Thanks,
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:28:53 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: humor on the list
RACE --- wrote:
> Lisa M.
Rabey wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Is
it possible to define a real shit. I mean
some would say that
> Oliver
> >
>North is one. Others say that he is
an AMERICAN hero for lying to
> >
>Congress and shredding documents sought by lawful subpenis Then
> they
> >
^^^^^^^^
> >
>want to subpenis Clinton? The
question is, will Hillary shred the
> > ^^^^^^^^
> >
>evidence, or maybe hide it in a Bobbit file till after the trial?
> >
> > am i
the only one who finds it amusing that a lawyer spells
> subpeona's
as
> >
"subpenis'?
> > or is
it because its 4am
> > and ive
had wayyyyyyy too much caffine
> > and my
mouth is dry from too many cigarettes?
> > or
among other things?
> >
> > ttfn.
> >
> > lisa
> > --
> >
> > Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
> >
>
************************************************************
> > words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> > how easy it would be to
hate you
> > and yet that is all i can
show you -me
> >
> >
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
mirror->
> >
http://www.interlog.com/~lisa
>
> my
impression was the spelling was deliberate.
of course, the
> rationale
> for this
deliberate decision may rest deeply imbedded somewhere in his
>
> or our
collective psyches.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
David, Lisa,
Paula Jones says,
if he drops trow, I can id the man. What
is she
wanting to see
and id? His penis etc. So yes deliberate and to tie
into a Hillary
shredding the evidence and into a Bobbitt joke.
Perhaps
bad, perhaps too
"good" of humor. It was all a
joke in response to the
post by Charles
Plymell, and I must say a most excellent post, about the
list, the
bullshit laws, and the real stuff, or was that right stuff and
real shit. Oh well, color me bad. (another joke there).
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:39:54 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97060209534861@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
hi fred. i'm a
computer idiot.
how do we specify
list vs private?
and is this the
fallout from the tempest which endangered the teapot?
how sad that
community suffers.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:45:40 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: jack kerouac bio written by Gerald Nicosia
beat
points
first: there's an
italian language translation of the
book written by Gerald Nicosia 'bout
the JK life
& works? anyone can tell something?
second:in angst
for the hot shift of the posts from word
to word, points
first: there's an
italian language translation of the
book written by Gerald Nicosia 'bout
the JK life
& works? anyone can tell something?
second:in angst
for the hot shift of the posts from word
to word, but i'm a real beet (sic!)
& i do not understand
why people leaves the B-List.
yrs
Rinaldo.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:02:40 -0500
Reply-To: thereman@IX.NETCOM.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Josh Meyer
<thereman@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Decline of the West
Hi...
I am new to the
list.
(Quick background-
18 yr. old male, headed to Lawrence, KS for college in the
fall)
Anyways, I had a
quick question...
I am gearing up
to read "Decline of the West," by Oswald Spengler, and wish to
solicit some
opinion on this book. I picked it up after reading of its extreme
influence on the
beats, particularly Burroughs and Ginsberg.
Has anyone here
read it, and if so, what did you think?
thanks...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:47:35 EDT
Reply-To: mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: Good Work Bill
Here's to Bill
Gargan who donates his time and energy to providing a forum
for us beat
enthusiasts. It was his enthusiasm and hard word that got the
list started and
he's the one that keeps it running every day. It's still
the best list
I've seen in any category. Good work Bill.
Here's to all the
other volunteers- Levi Asher, Paul Maher, Attila Gyenis
and so many
others who have the courage to start and run magazine or web
site or festival
or event that we all can enjoy. They are the ones posting
new material to
the web and stuffing envelopes at midnight after a full
week at their day
job. Lord knows, none of us is making any money at it.
Nor do we expect
to.
A little respect
and recognition please.
Mark Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:02:11 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> hi fred. i'm
a computer idiot.
> how do we
specify list vs private?
> and is this
the fallout from the tempest which endangered the teapot?
> how sad that
community suffers.
> mc
Folks,
The message from
Fred is a really big deal. The thing
that makes this
list work is
spontaneous responses to the thoughts of the other members.
This literally means that everytime you
respond, a RE:, the response
will go only to
the last person. You will only be
carrying on private
email conversations
with one another. There will be no
subject threads
only the first
message that started the thread. Now
seriously, if you
want to kill the
beat list, this is the way to do it. I see this as a
serious violation
of the free speech that the beats spent their lives
fighting
for. We need to be able to respond
freely to one another in a
public
forum. I protest this and I hope my
response gets to the entire
list. The entire
list should not be made to suffer because 3-4 guys don't
like each other.
I deleted Marie's address from my reply and typed in the
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
address. Make sure in your responses
that you
type the BEAT-L
address in the Mail To: section. This is
something that
we seriously need
to discuss ON THE LIST!
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:13:55 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: List changes
Marie Countryman
wrote:
> >
> > hi
fred. i'm a computer idiot.
> > how do
we specify list vs private?
> > and is
this the fallout from the tempest which endangered the teapot?
> > how sad
that community suffers.
> > mc
>
> Folks,
> The message from Fred is a really big
deal. The thing that makes this
list work is spontaneous responses to the
thoughts of the other
members. This literally means that everytime you
respond, a RE:, the
response will go
only to the last person. You will only
be carrying on
private email
conversations with one another. There
will be no subject
threads only the
first message that started the thread.
Now seriously,
if you want to
kill the beat list, this is the way to do it. I see this
as a serious
violation of the free speech that the beats spent their
lives fighting for.
We need to be able to respond freely to one
another in a public forum.
I protest this and I hope my response gets
to the
entire list. The entire list should not
be made to suffer
because 3-4 guys
don't like each other. I deleted Marie's
address from
my reply and
typed in the BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU address.
Make sure in
your responses
that you type the BEAT-L address in the Mail To: section.
This is something that we seriously need to
discuss ON THE LIST!
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:55:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: sad state of affairs
In-Reply-To: <339318B3.C99@together.net>
hi diane. i think
given what has happened, and mostly off list between who
i appreciate as
having balanced minds, who have had to find a kinder and
freeer exchange
of ideas which this list really developed and began to
evolve into
community place/space. until the recent events.
however, shouted
(IN CAPS!!!) insults, swearing, muckraking, not willing to
let go histrionic and just plain perversity of
approx. 5-10 (generous
numbers, here!)
peple who just basically come barging into the coffee shop,
rumble on the
floor, patrons fleeing, and too damned soaked in testosterone
to notice that
the place IS CLEARING OUT because most of recent sign offs
have deliberately
chosen to join kinder and more inclusionary atmosphere(s).
JH in chicago: i
dig yr project but cant agree with you here.
it seems like 90%
of posts are taken up w/name droppers, travel excusion
more relevantly
private (like so and so will be here tomorrwo, etc) as well
as name calling
best suited to filthy gas station doors, than here.
i have become
disillusioned that some of the movers and shakers of the beat
renaissance now
choose to rail and flail. reminds me too much of JK in
florida before
hemmoraging to death on bathroom floor.
i'm so
disillusioned,
and this is
coming from someone whose very nature is psychotically optimistic.
sad sad sad.
going off to join
ron and all my buddies.
mc
ps bill again,
dont unsub. i need to take a stand for a while.
mc
mc
marie wrote:
>> hi fred.
i'm a computer idiot.
>> how do
we specify list vs private?
>> and is
this the fallout from the tempest which endangered the teapot?
>> how sad
that community suffers.
>> mc
>
>Folks,
>
>The message
from Fred is a really big deal. The
thing that makes this
>list work is
spontaneous responses to the thoughts of the other members.
> This
literally means that everytime you respond, a RE:, the response
>will go only
to the last person. You will only be
carrying on private
>email
conversations with one another. There
will be no subject threads
>only the
first message that started the thread.
Now seriously, if you
>want to kill
the beat list, this is the way to do it. I see this as a
>serious
violation of the free speech that the beats spent their lives
>fighting
for. We need to be able to respond
freely to one another in a
>public
forum. I protest this and I hope my
response gets to the entire
>list. The
entire list should not be made to suffer because 3-4 guys don't
>like each
other. I deleted Marie's address from my reply and typed in the
>BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
address. Make sure in your responses
that you
>type the
BEAT-L address in the Mail To: section.
This is something that
>we seriously
need to discuss ON THE LIST!
>
>DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:03:12 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
David R,
I will try and
find out when the special collections will be available to the
public. There is
some at the moment, but the new stuff will take awhile. I'll
let you know.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:06:55 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: list in fighting and fbi
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> mr nicosia:
> i know you
are greatly vexed. but to call in the fbi is just too much for me.
> these guys
dont just go after the one, which will mean all of list shall be
> open to said
agents.
> they will be
readin all; much talk here has been about 'relaxing' with
> mother
nature.
> this is
reaching the heights of wagnerian opera,
> this tempest
in a teapot.
> i've had
enough in my time of tapped phones and the like.
> they wont
just investigate a few fellows.
> i dont want
them reading my mail.
> so this may
be a sign off.
> bill, dont
unsub me. i'll do it myself when i see just how this is going.
> sadly,
> mc
My sentiments
exactly.I sure don't want the FBI going through my
computer or anyone
else's on a fishing expedition. Maybe
time to clean
a lot of hard
drives.
Calling the cops
is in my view a much greater violation of the Beat List
purpose than
stupid name calling. This is serious
stuff.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:10:05 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: List changes
Diane is making
some very good points here -
If the original
sender only gets a reply, then I think we will lose that
spontaneous prose
that Jack taught us...
Why should the
rules change like this because a few guys continue to insult
each other...
Bill: Just get
rid of those who continue to insult, swear at, or not use
proper netiquette
to othe members...
Example: calling
someone a "FAGGOT" like Chaput did or me calling Jerry C a
liar (which I
apologize for now publicly)...
Diane's brought
up a real good point that must be discussed...
if we go along
with the change here, our Beat-L is just email and not a Beat
list....
Jeffrey
WRB
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:53:27 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the original sender
Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
writes:
>Hi folks,
>Excuse me
while I pull on my hip boots to wade in here.
>Effective
immediately, all replies to postings on beat-l will go to the
>original
sender, NOT the list, unless otherwise specified.
>
>fred
>
>
hello,
i don't
understand what is happened exactly,
I HAVE NO
RESPONSE FROM THE USUAL LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,
it started
yesterda, on sunday 1 june 1997,
no response &
no idea where my posts are gone,
SAD TIMES,
who is the
ORIGINAL SENDER ?
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:26:31 +0000
Reply-To: annie@rt66.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: annie shank <annie@RT66.COM>
Organization: you
can't be serious
Subject: Re: list in fighting and fbi
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
It's gotten too
deep for me, folx. When I subbed here, I
expected
something other
than what's been crowding my inbox. I expected
people
talking about
beat literature and the authors and the era.
I got usenet
on a
listserv. And now someone's talking
about bringing in the
federales?
I think not.
See ya
later. I'll try in about a year and see
if this place still
exists or if
nothing is left but scorched earth.
Sheesh!
annie
annie@rt66.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:34:59 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
Jeffrey Weinberg
wrote:
>
> Diane is
making some very good points here -
> If the
original sender only gets a reply, then I think we will lose that
> spontaneous
prose that Jack taught us...
>
> Why should
the rules change like this because a few guys continue to insult
> each
other...
>
> Bill: Just
get rid of those who continue to insult, swear at, or not use
> proper
netiquette to othe members...
> Example:
calling someone a "FAGGOT" like Chaput did or me calling Jerry C a
> liar (which
I apologize for now publicly)...
>
> Diane's
brought up a real good point that must be discussed...
> if we go
along with the change here, our Beat-L is just email and not a Beat
> list....
>
> Jeffrey
> WRB
Jeffery,
I see both sides
of this. You aren't blocked from posting
to the
list--it's just
that your first option is to post direct.
When Bill talked
about this change I encouraged him. I
hate to see
community lost
myself. But sometimes posts seem
primarily aimed at the
person who wrote
them rather than the list itself.
The number of
posts is a problem for some of us. If a
member has to
decide to post to
the list he or she might think whether it really needs
to go to the
entire list. Lisa's situation is
typical. When I am away
at work and come
home at night just going through Beat-L becomes a
chore. Hard to
get anything else done. (and if you leave for a three day
weekend it's
monumental) Maybe we should all edit ourselves a little
more. To me that isn't censorship. I have gone more
to backchannelling
anyway because
the post volume just seems to create very crowded
airwaves.
Poetry posts are
nice sometimes, but we are now being used as sort of an
open mike at a
poetry slam by some. Maybe some of us
have time to read
these things
thoughtfully. I usually don't.
I agree that this
needs discussion. But it wouldn't hurt
to try it and
see how it works.
And it might help cool the air a little and get us all
focused again and
what we were here for rather than a daily reenactment
of the Punic
Wars.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:03:13 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: List changes
Before there is
too much hand wringing and finger pointing on this latest
change I think we
should all look at the big picture here.
We're dealing
with quite a few issues all involving CHANGE in what we've been
used to.
1). A huge blip of new people joining the list
after AG died.
2). A resulting increase in the daily limit to
the number of posts from 50
to 100.
3). The Great Estate Debate involving some people
who are relatively new to
the list and some
who have been on for a while.
4). Some people unsubbing, mostly new people, a
smaller number who have been
on for a while.
5). A vast increase in the number of posts,
whether they are Estate related
or not.
6). Some people who never post a thing and some
who post 10-20 times a day.
Given all these
changes happening at once I think we should take a wait and
see attitude
regarding the new set-up on the "Reply" button.
These changes may
not be all bad and they may not foretell any major downward
spiral of the
list. Lisa made a humorous comment about
how long it takes her
email to download
and I think we can all relate to what she said (with the
possible
exception of doing our nails).
One of the things
this new change will mean is it will force each individual
to make a
conscious choice when sending a post to the list. It means you'll
have to decide
each and every time if what you're sending is appropriate for
200+ people or
not. It should mean the end to the easy
"one button clicks"
that we see so
often and that really aren't necessary.
CHANGE is never
easy for anyone, but it happens whether we like it or not.
This might simply be a better way to manage
the list. Let's see what
happens. We can always change back if it seems appropriate.
Jerry Cimino
PS: I've been backchanneling with Levi for quite
a while and he asked me
(read "gave
permission") to tell everyone that he says "hello", "misses
everyone"
and "looks forward to coming back soon" but it would be impractical
right now to do
so as his book is ready to come out very soon and he is
buried.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:10:09 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: a question:jack kerouac bio written
by Gerald Nicosia
June 2, 1997
>first:
there's an italian language translation of the
> book written by Gerald Nicosia 'bout
the JK life
> & works? anyone can tell something?
>yrs
>Rinaldo.
>
Rinaldo, Unfortunately there's no Italian translation
yet. Nanda Pivano
wrote about
MEMORY BABE in the CORRIERE DELLA SERRA and tried to get someone
interested, but
the problem is the book's length--almost 800 pages, which
means you have to
pay a translator for 1-2 years' work.
There is a translation available in
Spanish from Circe Ediciones in
Spain
(Barcelona), called JACK KEROUAC; and a translation in excellent
French which uses
the English title (MEMORY BABE) from Quebec-Amerique in
Montreal, which I
believe is distributed in France too.
Ciao, Gerry
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:49:58 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Estate Potatoe War (with an E)
..., nor is there
one
>person out
there who I feel is the person who should be the spokesperson on
>this issue
(even if they did write a biography).
>Next: Just
wondering. Suppose Person A is discussing something with Person B,
>and asks
Person B to prove something. And Person B proves it by using an
>excerpt from
a letter written by Person A. And Person
A's response is that
>they are
going to sue for Libel, slander, and copyright infringement. Does
>anybody find
that a little unusual?
>
>so it goes,
Attila
>
June
2, 1997
Dear Attila,
I write you with all due respect:
Honest, open argument, with facts
instead of name
calling.
It is clear, despite your pronouns,
that you are writing about me.
I am the only
biographer on this list--that I know of.
Person A would then be Rod Anstee. He accused me of selling
Columbia
University xeroxes to U Mass, Lowell, illegally. I said I had not
done this, and I
(or perhaps it was Bentz Kirby) asked for proof. In reply,
Mr. Anstee quoted
from my private letters indicating that there were xeroxes
of Kerouac
letters to Malcolm Cowley at U Mass, Lowell, which had come as
part of my
collection.
The Malcolm Cowley letters (xeroxes)
were NOT FROM COLUMBIA
UNIVERSITY. I had met with Mr. Cowley privately, he had
handwritten a
permission for me
to copy his Kerouac letters and to use those xeroxes
however I chose;
and the Newberry Library (where Mr. Cowley had placed those
letters for
preservation) honored Mr. Cowley's agreement with me.
So Mr. Anstee DID NOT PROVE his
libelous accusations by printing my
private letters;
he only compounded his crimes against me by violating my
copyright in
those letters (A WRITER'S PRIVATE LETTERS ARE GIVEN HIGHEST
PRIORITY
PROTECTION UNDER U.S. FEDERAL COPYRIGHT.)
By the way, when I capitalize it's
because I mean simply to
underline, or
italicize, not to shout; but I haven't figured out how to
underline or
italicize yet in my particular email sender format.
(I do admit to being a novice.)
I hope this clears up a point.
Good luck with your next issue of DHARMA
BEAT.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:01:58 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Hello James,
Man, getting that
Little Walter sound is a tough package to fill.
Remember Juke?
That's a Houserocker. Luther is real cool and almost
impossible to
play harp against his lead. I've tried a few times and
took the 10 count
and died. I'm glad he decided to move back to the
states.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:09:41 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Burroughs; was Re: my condolences to
whoever just "signed
off"...
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.91.970529231126.540035616A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
On Thu, 29 May
1997, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> What do artists do? They dream for other
people. We dream for those
> people who
have no dreams of their own to keep them alive."
> (_Painting
and Guns_ p.46)
Just picked up
this book over the weekend. I love it! This is my favorite
style of
Burroughs' writing, his I don't know what you'd call them,
rhetorical essays
or something -- the stuff like this or along the lines of
_Electronic
Revolution_, which has been my favorite Burroughs work for a
while. Any
recommendations for other wsb articles/books/interviews along
these lines?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:18:50 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
> Marie
Countryman wrote:
> >
> > hi
diane. i think given what has happened, and mostly off list between who
> > i
appreciate as having balanced minds, who have had to find a kinder and
> > freeer
exchange of ideas which this list really developed and began to
> > evolve
into community place/space. until the recent events.
> >
however, shouted (IN CAPS!!!) insults, swearing, muckraking, not willing to
> > let
go histrionic and just plain perversity
of approx. 5-10 (generous
> >
numbers, here!) peple who just basically come barging into the coffee shop,
> > rumble
on the floor, patrons fleeing, and too damned soaked in testosterone
> > to
notice that the place IS CLEARING OUT because most of recent sign offs
> > have
deliberately chosen to join kinder and more inclusionary atmosphere(s).
> > JH in
chicago: i dig yr project but cant agree with you here.
> > it
seems like 90% of posts are taken up w/name droppers, travel excusion
> > more
relevantly private (like so and so will be here tomorrwo, etc) as well
> > as name
calling best suited to filthy gas station doors, than here.
> > i have
become disillusioned that some of the movers and shakers of the beat
> >
renaissance now choose to rail and flail. reminds me too much of JK in
> > florida
before hemmoraging to death on bathroom floor.
> > i'm so
disillusioned,
> > and
this is coming from someone whose very nature is psychotically
optimistic.
> > sad sad
sad.
> > going
off to join ron and all my buddies.
> > mc
> > ps bill
again, dont unsub. i need to take a stand for a while.
> > mc
I am in total agreement that 90% of the posts
in the last month or so
should not have been here. I guess what I am saying is that all of us
seriously concerned with sharing ideas on a
daily basis, make an
agreement that we will only discuss beat
things intelligently, with no
shouting, namecalling or harrassment. I think it is important,
however, that we
be able to maintain a thought flow by repling (re:ing)
to individual
posts on the list. Why don't we start
now by refusing to
reply to flames
and eventually maybe we will all have the community we
want to share
ideas and Bill at CUNY can decide that we don't have to
type in that very
long beat address every time we want to talk.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:08:25 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Stauffer's comments on fbi
I'm afraid
cleaning out the hard drives won't do any good.
All the
archives areon
the server and open to anyone who wishes to view them.
They won't even
need to notify us or get a warrant.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:07:17 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Mass Hysteria
I've never seen anything like this
before. First there's this estate
business and then
there's the pleas for the estate business to stop which
only serve to
perpetuate it. (I realize I just made
another contribution).
People are sick
of this and sick of that. People are
leaving because of
this and because
of that. A few Beats get mentioned in
passing.
Reports of people trying to wipe out their
hard-drives because the feds
might get
involved. Then they learn / remember
that their postings are held
in an
archive. Now these people are probably
trying to get as much
information about
hacking as they can. Relax. Here, have some Nyquill.
The beat list beaten by fear and loathing,
the Beats 'd love that. The
Beats aren't
here. The Beats aren't here. The Beats aren't here. Dear so
and so we talk
about the list itself more than the Beats themselves. Maybe
there's nothing
to say about them. Maybe this list
should just be a list of
recommended
readings. Maybe this list should be a
poetry forum. Maybe this
list shouldn't
exist. Maybe it should. Beat the heat. Maybe this list is
premature
splatterings due to the ongoing nature of Beatdom; too bad we
can't take
advantage of that fact. The Beats
resound and sound again by
their
absence. Love this. Love that.
Don't stop destroying yourselves,
you might learn
something.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:09:03 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: When is a list not a list
Comments: cc:
Fred Bogin <FDBBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>,
Bill Gargan
<WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
The changes makes
the beat-l not a list anymore.
I think the real
way is better and there is an over
reaction to nothing.
In the past there
have been many threads that have nothing to do with "beat
stuff" that
become people on the list jawing and playing with each other
with fun word
play and personal stuff.
I never
complained about any of this and don't think anyone should. But if
there were a time
when such a new list set-up like this should have been put
in place it
should have been for that sort of posts.
But it wasn't and I'm
glad it wasn't.
The recent
"esate battle" is more related to important "beat issues"
than a
lot of things
that have come across here. I do not
understand the fear and
antipathy to it
and the tendency to shy away from controversy passion
animosity and
insults and information that has come with it.
I cannot
understad how anyone who has an appreciation for many of Ginsberg's
poems cannot
appreciate the passion and invective of some of the posts.
Howl was a
flame. Ginsberg was flaming decades
before the internet.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:36:02 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a list
Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>
> Howl was a
flame. Ginsberg was flaming decades
before the internet.
In a way I agree
with you. I also wondered if anyone out
there has any
quotes about what
Ginsberg thought of the FBI.
I found this
little tidbit in a poem of Ginsberg's called Ecologue:
...Waking 2 a.m.
clock tick
What was I dreaming
my body alert
Police light down this dirt road?
Justice Dogs sniffing for Grass
Seeds?
Would they find a little brown mushroom
button
tossed out
my window?
FBI read this
haiku?
Four in the
morning
rib thrill eyes open--
Deep hum thru
the house--
Windmill Whir? Hilltop Radar Blockhouse?
Valley Traffic 5 miles
downtown?
When'll Policecar Machinery assemble
outside State
pine woods?
Head out window--bright Orion star
line,
Pleiades and Dipper
Shinaing silent--
Bathrobe
flashlight, uproad Milky Way
Moved round the house this month
--remember Taurus' Horn up there last
fall?
White rabbit on
goat meadow, got over the chickenwire?
Hop away from flash light? Wait till Godly
Dog wakes up
Come back! He'll bite you! Here's a green beet leaf!
Pwzxst! Pwzxst!
Pwzxst!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:50:22 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a list
>Return-Path:
<race@midusa.net>
>Date: Mon, 02
Jun 1997 15:35:49 -0500
>From: RACE
--- <race@midusa.net>
>To:
"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.usc.edu>
>Subject: Re:
When is a list not a list
>References:
<199706022009.NAA11514@hsc.usc.edu>
>
>Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> The
changes makes the beat-l not a list anymore.
>>
>> I think
the real way is better and there is an
over reaction to nothing.
>>
>> In the
past there have been many threads that have nothing to do with "beat
>>
stuff" that become people on the list jawing and playing with each other
>> with fun
word play and personal stuff.
>>
>> I never
complained about any of this and don't think anyone should. But if
>> there
were a time when such a new list set-up like this should have been put
>> in place
it should have been for that sort of posts.
But it wasn't and I'm
>> glad it
wasn't.
>>
>> The
recent "esate battle" is more related to important "beat
issues" than a
>> lot of
things that have come across here. I do
not understand the fear and
>>
antipathy to it and the tendency to shy away from controversy passion
>>
animosity and insults and information that has come with it.
>>
>> I cannot
understad how anyone who has an appreciation for many of Ginsberg's
>> poems
cannot appreciate the passion and invective of some of the posts.
>>
>> Howl was
a flame. Ginsberg was flaming decades
before the internet.
>
>i'm on
several lists that run this way. it is
very easy to put the List
>address in
your address book and include it in the mail to: line in the
>composition
box. but it does make one actually think
for a second is
>this a
backchannel or is this a list conversation.
in this case i feel
>it could be
either. if you wish to respond to these
comments on-list
>feel free to
include my message.
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>
Or simply forward
it (like this)
Also, I am on
lists that work that way I guess.
Usually finding out after I
mailed something
I thought would go to the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:10:18 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
In-Reply-To: <33922AE6.1ED8@midusa.net>
On Sun, 1 Jun
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> though i do
have good memories of playing in Columbus once -
> many many
used record stores back then. i might
actually have to plan a
> road trip
one of these days/months/years ....
what did you
play? columbus still has many great used record stores,
definitely more
than cleveland ... was there last week, saw a band whose
bass player wore
a hypnolovewheel shirt (band whose _space mountain_ cd i've
been looking for
fer ages) and the next day, in one of those used record
places on high
street, i found said cd for $3 ...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:44:52 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Howling
Sure
"Howl" was a flame. It flamed
society in general. (Hey, could we
actually write
about what a poem means? Nah, not
here.) The estate
controversy is
only a howl in the comic sense of the word.
The use of
"Howl"
as analogous to the estate controversy is incredibly weak and it does
a horrible
injustice to the poem.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:26:09 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: list in fighting and fbi
June 2,
1997
>> mr
nicosia:
>> i know
you are greatly vexed. but to call in the fbi is just too much for me.
>> these
guys dont just go after the one, which will mean all of list shall be
>> open to
said agents. -- Marie Countryman
>Calling the
cops is in my view a much greater violation of the Beat List
>purpose than
stupid name calling. This is serious
stuff.
>
>J Stauffer
>
Dear Marie,
James, and others concerned:
I spoke of contacting the FBI about the
private threat by Mr. Paul
Maher--not about
anything that has been posted on the Beat-List.
I identify Mr. Maher since he has
already identified himself as the
threatener.
I don't know if either of you are
married or have children. But
when I was single
and childless, I was pretty cavalier about such things,
figuring, OK,
come after me, I ain't got nothin' to lose anyway. Now that I
have a wife and a
2-year-old child, I put their safety above all.
Mr. Maher's private threat letter was
not a nice academic criticism
of my
behavior. It was, rather, riddled with
foul, abusive language. The
first part nearly
verged on blackmail--warning me that if I didn't stop my
posts, he would
reveal some very damaging information about me.
Well, this didn't bother me, since I
figure anything Paul Maher
knows about me,
he knows from John Sampas anyway; and anything Mr. Sampas
knows has already
been submitted to a battery of high-paid attorneys.
But the second part of Mr. Maher's
letter warned that if I persisted
in my posts, he
would undertake to do some unspecified harm to me, I am
quoting now and
using his caps: "AND IT WON"T BE ON THE BEAT-L...." He said
nothing, as he
later claimed, about merely "counteracting your critical
biography with a
series of academic treatises that will both take issue with
and validate my
argument against your thesis."
To be perfectly frank, I am still not
convinced that this new
interpretation is
what he really meant. Why would a thesis
that
contradicted the
conclusions of MEMORY BABE terrify me so badly that I would
stop posting to
the Beat-List? Many critics have already
disagreed with
many of the
conclusions in MEMORY BABE; those type of things alternately
intrigue and
amuse me (and occasionally bore me) but they have never yet
frightened me.
The menacing tone and barroom
vocabulary of Mr. Maher's letter,
combined with the
fact that he is a convicted felon, made me take him very
seriously.
It's not the first such threat I have
received. When Ron Kovic and
I were staging
anti-Gulf War events in Los Angeles in 1991, we regularly
received death
threats. It was Ron Kovic, in fact, who
taught me: "Take
every threat
seriously."
There are plenty of good reasons to take Maher's threat seriously.
He has not shown
an exceptionally good mental balance in his posts, and
there is good
evidence that someone is inciting him to anger against me.
My first contact with Mr. Maher, after
all, was not on the
Beat-List. It was earlier this year, when I actually
hurried to his defense
after librarian
Martha Mayo had accused him of stealing the missing 60
letters from the
MEMORY BABE collection. I pointed out to
the Lowell DA
that there was no
evidence at all pointing to Mr. Maher as the perpetrator
of this crime,
and that therefore Mr. Maher should be dismissed as a suspect
until some such
evidence showed up. I thought I had done
him a favor. But
as soon as I
joined the Beat-List, Mr. Maher was attacking me and MEMORY
BABE with
exceptional vitriol--calling my work "sophomoric," etc.--for no
apparent
reason. The next thing I knew, he was
attacking me personally
too--out of the
blue.
Mr. Gyensis then posts today to defend
people going public with
unsubstantiated
criminal charges against me, as well as publishing my
private letters
without permission; he also justifies my critics putting me
"to a higher
level of scrutiny" than they deserve themselves. Mr. Gyensis's
former business
partner (in DHARMA BEAT magazine) Mark Hemenway goes even
further; he asks
us to commend Mr. Maher as a model citizen.
I wonder: do Mr. Gyensis and Mr.
Hemenway also approve of sending
threats thru the
mail? Do they view this as "a
higher level of scrutiny"?
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:39:57 -0400
Reply-To: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
In-Reply-To:
<199706020514.WAA24185@norway.it.earthlink.net>
> Jack Kerouac is on record in several
places, including a letter to
> John Clellon
Holmes, in June, 1962, saying that he has filed all his papers
> in file
drawers as "a goldmine of information for scholars," and that he
> wanted
future biographers to have access to them.
Should we not respect his
> wishes?
i considered this possibilty, but was
unaware of the fact. in that
case, more power
to you. his wishes most certainly should
be
respected...
> As for "taking in stride" a
systematic campaign of verbal abuse, the
> most vile
insults and accusations, every day for a month--well, like the
> Indians used
to say, "walk a mile in my moccassins and then come back and
> talk to
me."
i have, believe you me. albeit not in the
same situation. it's
definitely not
easy... taking the kind of crap i've seen thrown in your
direction in the
short time i've been here. but, (you knew there'd be a but,
no?) you have to
wonder if it's worth the time and energy it takes to
respond to them.
it's so easy for these folks to say what they say in an
electronic
forum... let's see half of them attack you with equal ferocity
face to face, or,
even better, once they've gotten to know you a little..
if they'd even be
open minded enough to give you chance. i dunno, all
this crap just
seems so petty.. the agendas... i'm not insinuating that
it's your fault
the slander continues. on the contrary, it's mostly the
fault of the
slanderers, who have so little control over their tempers
that they fall
into a sickening cycle of cynicism.
another (probably worthless) $0.02 from yours
truly...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:44:41 -0400
Reply-To: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes
Comments: To:
"Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91.970602091156.21667E-100000@user2.infinet.com>
> > It is
nice to see someone else who has read the Jaynes book.
>
> James I read
J Jaynes' book in 1981 and again this past spring. I agree
> with cha
wholly! I have also read Korzyksi's "Science and Sanity" a few
are we referring to "The Origin of Consciousness
in the Breakdown of
the Bicameral
Mind?" if so, i read it also, and was (and still am) amazed
by its premise...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:45:51 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Minneapolis and the Beats
Hello James,
Check out any of
Luther's CD's on the Alligator Label-They're all
Houserocking!
He's at the top of his game.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:50:50 -0400
Reply-To: henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
>Date: Mon, 02
Jun 1997 18:23:45 -0400
>To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
>From: henry
<luckfry@mail.netway.com>
>Subject: Re:
List changes
>
>
>>>
Bill: Just get rid of those who continue to insult, swear at, or not use
>>>
proper netiquette to othe members...
>>>
Example: calling someone a "FAGGOT" like Chaput did or me calling
Jerry C a
>
>>Go back
and check Mr. Chaput never called anyone a "faggot" this is just
the kind of stuff
that starts fights. Please retract so people don't think
he actually said
this. Henry
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:54:18 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Nationals
Hello John,
It's a small
world. Here we both have '31's!-man, do they slide
nice. How's your
7 th. fret-any buzzes? I'm real hard on my instruments.
Wished I could
make the North Carolina gig. I'll be
at Bay Front. I
wonder if Hammond will show? That boy can play a
mean slide!
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:28:34 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat-L T-Shirt Update
Dear Beat-L
members:
Thanks to all of
you who have emailed or phoned me to place your order for
the official
Beat-L T-shirt which will be ready to ship in a few weeks....
But to all of you
out there who placed your name on the list back in April to
reserve your
T-shirts - Now is the time to honor your committment....
The T-shirt has
been custom designed by artist S.Clay Wilson and is available
in Large- Extra
Large- and Extra Extra Large Sizes. White ink on black 100%
super deluxe
quality cotton preshrunk T-shirt...$18.00 (no shipping or
handling
charges).
Satisfaction
guaranteed.
Master Card /
Visa / Money Order / or Check....
C'Mon Gerry Nicosia!
- If you really care about this Beat-L and promoting it
to the world,
Order a T-shirt!! And how about you -
Jerry C. - How come you
won't buy a shirt
to help promote this list??? And what about you, Paul
Maher? You can
give a shirt to Sampas as a gift! (only
kidding!!!! - don't
be soooo
sensitive, you guys!)
Seriously, folks
- please honor your T-shirt committment as soon as possible.
We ordered the
quantity of shirts and sizes based on your reservations....
You can view the
S. Clay Wilson artwork for the Beat-L shirt at:
http://www.waterrowbooks.com
Thanks -
Jeffrey Weinberg
Beat-L T-shirt
Committee
c/o Water Row
Books
PO Box 438
Sudbury MA 01776
Tel 508-485-8515
Fax 508-229-0885
EMail
Waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:29:52 -0400
Reply-To: DawnDR@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: PLAY CALLED "KEROUAC"
Just wanted to
pass this on to the rest of the list -- if someone has posted
this in the past,
forgive me.
While browsing
through the NEW YORK POST (temporary lapse - forgive me), came
across a Caberet
Review for a musical named KEROUAC, currently at Theater
East (211 East
60th St., between Second and Third Avenues, NYC). Among songs
are "I Keep
Falling in Love with My Mother" written by Reena Heenan - who
also wrote the
book for the show - and Shelley Gartner; "Hopelessly Lower
Class"
written by Pete Blue and Benita Green; and "Jack and Neal's Song" (no
name). Seems that a good part of the musical focuses
on the JK/NC
relationship, and
"Jack and Neal's Song" contains the following: "I gave up
half my life for
you and your book, and you wrote me as a cad."
Comments????
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:49:10 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat-L T-Shirt Update
Jeffrey,
My name has been
on the T-Shirt list for months and I've always had every
intention of
honoring my commitment and wearing my shirt with pride!
And I hope you
have them in XXXXXXXX-Large so some of us can get them over
our swelled
heads! And if you have any left over you
might want to try a
bulk deal to the
FBI so their guys can wear them as they sift through the
Beat-L Archives
looking for inciminating posts!
Good job,
Jeffrey. I saw the shirt on your website
and it looks terrific.
Good luck in completing the construction...
seriously!
Jerry C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:10:55 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: The Feds
Gerald,
If I was the James to whom you referred in
your last post, rest assured
that I have no
fear of the F.B.I. coming over. In fact,
I welcome any and
all F.B.I. agents
who may happen to read this to come on over; we can have a
beer and
talk. Send Scully and Mulder if you can,
I always seem to be
missing time and
waking up with no recollection of where I was or how I got
home. And I've got some really strange prose that
I'm just dying to share
with pro's of any
variety.
Back to surreality, I understand your
concern, even without having a
wife or
child. I take all threats
seriously. I don't ascribe to the theory
that if you
ignore taunters they'll go away. I don't
really know what to
say other than
that I sym and empathize. If you haven't
already, maybe you
_should_ mention
it to the cops. Maybe just knowing that
this sort of thing
could be in the
works will slow some unnamed person / people down.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:49:21 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Changes
My thanks to
James Stauffer and Jerry Cimino for their posts on the
changes in the
reply format. Although it may be
confusing at first,
it's not a big
deal once you get used to it. I've been
on several lists
that work this
way. As far ashaving to type the long
Beat-l address
goes, you can get
around that by setting up a "nickname" file in your
email
system. Thanks for your patience and
cooperation.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:22:31 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and Why?
In a message
dated 97-06-01 23:37:23 EDT, you write:
<< can you
explain this shit to me? It is REAL SHIT
isn't
it?? >>
Bentz:
I could take the
Zen approach and say if it's real it doesn't need an
explanation and I
am aware of all your examples I see them every day. In my
time Clinton
would have been a lame duck instead a limp dick President. Oh
well.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:36:47 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
In a message
dated 97-06-02 00:17:56 EDT, you write:
<< I hope
you bought a nice Hat in
Wichita.
>>
Race:
Yeah my contact
there is Hat Man Jack in the "real" old Wichita. Last time I
was through there
a bus pulled up, Ernest Tubb's son was driving it for
Charley Daniels.
Sent the whole damn bus from Denver where he was playing to
Wichita to get
Jack to block his hat. Big hat, big
head, I guess, big man
too. But Jack made his hat as well as B. B.
King's. When I went in there he
said: "Hell,
I know you. I've read Last of the Moccasins." I had selected a
hat and he said
"it's yours." Then he showed me an antique hat making machine
he had found in
Paris. The other day though I tried to talk him out of an old
Beralatino (sp?)
Italian hat, he knew I spotted it the minute I came in the
door. I was
riding on short money, so I had to settle for a new blue hitman
hat. In fact I
just sent him some original manuscripts, books, etc. trying to
make him feel bad
about the price, but put a check in the package just in
case. We'll see
how it all comes out. Hat Man Jack is
the guy to see in
Wichita. We went to some old blues clubs and some
hippy joints where I took
Ginsberg to
Moody's Skid Row Beanery. And photographer Robert Frank to the
Hotel Eaton. Pat
O'Connor cruises the beat. Be sure and
contact him if you
go there. Pat filled me in on the Salina thing. The
thermostat was
controlled. Sorry I missed you, but we passed Richard
White in the Flint
Hills. He was
going to Wichita as we were driving to Lawrence and didn't know
it until we
returned home. Trips, trips, trips.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:47:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Is this the Charles that I just added
to my link page.
In a message
dated 97-06-02 00:44:39 EDT, you write:
<< I will
be in San Francisco in one week. It this
is Charles, can you
recommend any particular sites I should take
in.
>>
I just heard that
Jack Micheline is down and out in a hotel there. He'd be a
wonderful guide.
I'll have to do some digging to get his address to the
backbeat channel
to you. May be someone else on the list could help you
faster. Last time
I was there S. Clay Wilson took me in tow for 4 days. I
lost my best
black jacket, my Al Capone hat, and my grey Mexican boots that
fit me like a
glove that I had rocked and rolled in for 10 years. A fellow
starting the SF
Poetry Museum wanted to boots, but Glenn Todd says they are
still in his
closet with the whole damn story. Sometimes SF is so cool it
doesn't come out
at all. In November Al Cohen of the old
Haight Asbury
Oracle came to my
reading that was aborted periodically when S. Clay couldn't
stand still and
Dave Moe asked if he could read with me. Worked out fine.
Then Wilson said
is this a poet that you just stand up there and turn on and
off. Something
like that. Always has been. Sights appear, change,
metamorphize,
reappear, sift through the fog in apparitions. You can always
go to City Lights
and leave a message to yourself with a zombie.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:59:39 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Old Road
James:
Probably you
could get Glenn in a bitchy mood by saying I said he doesn't
understand his
computer. It's too bad because he has a
piece of history he
won't come off
of. He wrote me a nice letter I have to answer. He says
Richard White
said his computer and his penis are his best friends, but I
think only his
computer is. I'll give you a taste of the first paragraph of
his letter
talking about when we took Ginsberg to Chances R:
"Shoo-bop-tee-bog,
my baby, seems like a mighty long time. That's what the
young gays were
dancing to in Wichita in '63 when we went to that bar on East
Douglas. All in a row, moving their feet in perfect
unison, kick, turn,
sway, dip, kick,
high pert buns, long tapered legs, such pretty precision,
such innocent
harmony. Who would have thought that chorus line would soon be
demolished at the
Fillmore by the California free-form with its sanky locks
and epileptic
shudderings and total self-absorption? Seems like a might long
time.
Might long. It
was very exciting and interesting to see you again. Running
around all over
town like city buses. Just like old times. And meeting S.
Clar, that dynamo
producing chaos. I found after you left
that now is truly
the "old
times". My body ached and creaked, my head was fuzzy and fatigues. I
sank into pillows
for days. But I wouldn't trade that visit for weeks of
serenity."
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:09:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
In a message
dated 97-06-02 06:35:14 EDT, you write:
<< Why did
you e-mail my mom and not me?
>>
Lena:
Oh I don't know.
And you raised a good point about the Woody Guthrie lyrics
and you being so
young. Sometimes I think my brain has gone numb. I bet you'd
make a good
lawyer too.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:12:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: list in fighting and fbi
MC:
I'm sure they're
already lurking. Always have been.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:03:38 -0400
Reply-To: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: I'm outta here
Signing off folx,
too much work and a new Strat to
noodle around
with. Not enough time to sort through
the insanity of
this list anymore. Anyone who needs
to get in touch
with me, you know where I am.
I will be back to
test the waters sometime later in
the summer.
Have a great
summer everyone!!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:19:43 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes
In a message
dated 97-06-02 09:56:56 EDT, you write:
<< Jaynes'
consciousness evolution
still evolves toward who knows what the DEA
will do? >>
Always good to
remember that the pharmaceutical cartel has to be as great as
the oil cartel.
And who owns them. Both the legal and the illegal controllers
of the
economy. Follow Chomsky's advice and
read the back pages and the
primary sources
not the front pages and the propagandists. That's why I don'
buy the Times no
more. Thanks for your great hot
web. Did James get in
touch with you in
Columbus?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:25:40 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Booooring!
Am I the only one
bored by the Beat-l, tonight?
God, let's do
bring in the FBI! Bring in the
Marines.... somebody, make
something happen!
Jerry
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:40:30 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Booooring!
Comments: To:
Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Jerry Cimino wrote:
>
> Am I the
only one bored by the Beat-l, tonight?
>
> God, let's
do bring in the FBI! Bring in the
Marines.... somebody, make
> something
happen!
>
> Jerry
well, i re-read
burroughs language-virus/electronic revolution thing
today and was thinking
about it quite a bit. it seems the virus
particularly
relates to a particular form of temporal consciousness
heightened by
particular forms of causal-calculative symbolic action.
i'm not certain
that i'm willing to jump into the boat of this being
physiological
yet. it is a big difference to say
language is a virus
and language
functions like a virus. the latter makes
more sense to
me. one wonders how William is able to jump
outside the biological
constraints if
the relationship is not to some degree figurative.
and with this
going on in my brain and a bit of heidegger, k. burke, and
cassirer
twitching around here and there, your post came over the wire
and i felt a
soundtrack undertoning my hodgepodge of thought that was
the halls of
montezuma and the battle hymn of the republic sung in
harmony with
row-row-row your both in 3/4 time on the 3rd recorder
leaving you with
your choice of first or second recorder and meaning
that i am now not
only the devil and also god. and then i
was thinking
about the whole
notion of the one-god-universe piece in Western Lands
and on spare ass
annie and i was wondering about the notion of a
one-devil-universe
as well. and then i sat back and noticed
that i
actually had a
second or two to think
and let my
wandering mind wander around a bit and perhaps wonder cuz i
wasn't tempted by
the zillions of messages flashing on my computer
screen. and i kind of enjoyed it.
plus, i find
charley's road stories anything but boring.
let's give him
plenty of
bandwidth to tell many a tall tale of the road most recently
taken.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:57:18 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a list
In a message
dated 97-06-02 18:47:03 EDT, you write:
<< Howl was
a flame. Ginsberg was flaming decades
before the internet. >>
And I was just
going to reveal my plot to poison Ginsberg.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:13:56 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a listener
In a message
dated 97-06-02 20:23:22 EDT, you write:
<< n a way
I agree with you. I also wondered if
anyone out there has any
quotes about what Ginsberg thought of the FBI
>>
Here's a little
tibit I've always wondered about. When Allen and Neal moved
in at gough St.,
I wrote a poem that began"Hey man, when you're swinging/ way
out there alone/
doing the rubty rub in wilderness...etc. I forget the rest
but at that time
published it in a little mag called NOW along with a poem of
McClure's and
Ginsberg's, who had just returned from India. M& G had been
flaming each
other and this was their make up page. Anyway, years later after
the pad had been
abandoned, its last resident got a new pad through
redevelopment or
whatever it was called in S.F. I went into the basement of
his new pad and
there were dozens of holes in the walls whre it looked like
electronic
equiptment had been yanked out. On the walls were written those
lines from my
poem. I assume someone had been listening,and possibly through
boredom or
enlightenment had scrolled those words on the basement walls of
the new pad. What
does all this mean? I don't know but I can corrroborate the
story. One
explanation may be that they listen all the time...probably even
use my tax money
to pay some low level listener. Or there may be other
explanations..but
what? That is why i rant when I damn please, but try not to
hurt anyones's
feelings (too much).
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:17:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Subject
Hello Richard:
I picked up a
bunch of used lps in North Carolina last weekend. I had to
restick a few
price tags. You know what I mean. I got a mint Iggy Pop for $3.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:21:38 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Welcome Back Charles
Hello Charles,
It sounds like
you had a great time. Did you get a chance to see
Catfish McDaris?
I got a letter from him saying you might stop by.
Well, with all
this talk of FBI shit, I decided to pen this poem
for the suits:
PUTTING ALL COSTS
ASIDE, THE SHOW MUST GO ON
After being
followed
by a scribbling
mustache
carrying
clipboard, dressed
in grey flannel;
wearing a sporty
but
"fasionably correct," bulletproof
vest and
whistling: ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS,
the Psycho Poet
exploded over a billboard
advertisement.
Bold italics and screaming maxims
poured forth from
each and every orifice,
leaving him quite
exhausted. The ghost
of Francois de La
Rochefoucauld stood in the bleachers
cheering him on
and crying: CURTAINS! CURTAINS for
the poet.
Scheduled to read within minutes,
he suddenly
realized that his number was up.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:30:18 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: The Rocky Horror Picture Show
June 2,
1997
Diane Carter
writes:
> I am in
total agreement that 90% of the posts in the last month or so
> should not
have been here. I guess what I am saying
is that all of us
> seriously
concerned with sharing ideas on a daily basis, make an
> agreement
that we will only discuss beat things intelligently, with no
> shouting,
namecalling or harrassment. I think it
is important,
>however, that
we be able to maintain a thought flow by repling (re:ing)
>to individual
posts on the list. Why don't we start
now by refusing to
>reply to
flames and eventually maybe we will all have the community we
>want to share
ideas and Bill at CUNY can decide that we don't have to
>type in that
very long beat address every time we want to talk.
>
> DC
>
Dear Diane:
I only hope that some of you realize
how painful this whole thing
has been for me
too, and that a good part of my own pain is the knowledge
that my presence
here has interrupted one of the best, if not the best
ongoing Beat
forum in the world.
That knowledge made me ready to sign
off almost every day, and
sometimes I still
think I should have, before things got as bad as they did.
When I signed onto the Beat-List, I had
no idea it was going to turn
into the Rocky
Horror Picture Show, that people would be talking about
putting my face
on dart boards and I'd end up being accused of actual crimes
and getting
threats emailed privately to me.
I accept the guilt for being a hothead
and letting people push my
buttons too
easily and sometimes trying too hard to prove a point.
But I also know that what has happened
to me here is no accident.
And if Dave
Rhaesa wants to yell "conspiracy theory" again, so be it.
I know for a fact that I'm the only
person in the world who now has
LEGAL STANDING to
take on John Sampas in court, and to challenge what he is
doing with Jack
Kerouac's archive.
Many other people can wish me well, can
say they agree with my goal,
but I'm THE ONLY
PERSON WHO CAN STAND UP IN COURT AND OPPOSE MR. SAMPAS'S
SCATTERING OF
KEROUAC'S PAPERS. I have that standing
because Jan Kerouac
made me her
literary executor.
The only other person who could have
had standing to fight Mr.
Sampas was Jan's
exhusband John Lash, and he gave up that right when he made
a deal with Mr.
Sampas shortly after Jan died. But since
the deal has not
yet gone into
effect (it goes into effect when John Lash dismisses the
Florida lawsuit,
and so far the Albuquerque court has denied Mr. Lash the
power to do
that), there is still the possibility that Mr. Lash will change
his mind. I'm sure certain people are worried about
just such a thing
happening.
One of the ways to keep that from
happening is to make sure Gerald
Nicosia is
discredited every day of his life.
The four people on this List who have
launched the fiercest attacks
on me: Phil
Chaput and Paul Maher (in first place); Rod Anstee (in second
place); and
Attila Gyensis (a weak third) all have spent time with John
Sampas. At least one of them (Mr. Anstee) had
business dealings with Mr.
Sampas. The other three live in Lowell, Mr. Sampas's
hometown, and he
takes--at
minimum--a friendly interest in their Kerouac activities: the
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac! committee they have all belonged to at various
times, Mr.
Gyensis's DHARMA BEAT magazine, and Mr. Maher's KEROUAC QUARTERLY.
I leave you to draw your own
conclusions--as it should be.
I'm in the hot seat, and I've drawn
lightning bolts. And the people
near me are
getting burned. I'm truly sorry about
that. Truly sorry.
If you want me to leave the list, let
me know. I'm willing to let
the majority rule
on that. Tell Levi and all the others to
come back and
cast their vote.
P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that I
finished the first draft of
MEMORY BABE, the
anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
Ginsberg's
birthday.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:43:31 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Comments: To:
Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
> MEMORY BABE,
the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
> Ginsberg's
birthday.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
happy anniversary
and i mean it. the book is
excellent. i'm slowly
soaking it in.
i agree with you
on more than it may appear just disagree on more than
it may appear as
well. oh well.
hope that you
have a pleasant evening and celebrate a great anniversary
in your
life. also hope that the time is slowly
going to free up to do
work on what
sounds to be an INCREDIBLY significant book on Vietnam
Veterans.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:46:12 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar keeps Kaufman in
tune....
>In a message
dated 97-05-30 09:58:11 EDT, Gerry Nicosia wrote:
>
><< let
me announce that the poetry
> collection
of the late Bob Kaufman's which I edited, CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee
> House
Press), has just won the prestigious PEN CENTER USA West 1997 Literary
> Award in
Poetry. >>
>
>In honor of
this acheivement by argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
>Nicosia,
>let me offer
to Beat-L members a copy of Cranial Guitar at a special discount
>price of
$10.95 (cover price $12.95) plus free shipping in USA (foreign
>folks: please
add $2.00 for shipping via surface) - Offer good while supply
>lasts. Email
me to order or for more information .....
>
>Jeffrey
>Water Row
Books
>waterrw@aol.com
Jeffery,
I just ordered a t-shirt
and a poster earlier today--rather yesterday.
could you add a
copy of CRANIAL GUITAR?
Thanks,
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:37:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: t-shirts /how ironic
hi all:
i hope that all
will commit to buying their t-shirts as promised. (jeff:
there are folks
on boho list who still want their shirts; do you want me to
forward message
there for them? you probably have address anyway.
and speaking of
address books: i've spent a bloody hour this morning tryin
to make an
address book entry to eliminate the copy and paste method of
posting to group
at large.
both of these
statements tie into how ironic this all is, as the idea was
born out of a
sense of community.
sadly
mc
jeff, the check's
in the mail. many many thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:38:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: to gerry re: bullies in general
In-Reply-To: <339392E3.52DF@midusa.net>
>Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>>
>> P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
>> MEMORY
BABE, the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
>>
Ginsberg's birthday.
>> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
>
congrats, gerry,
and i look forward as well to yr vietnam project.
dont let the
bullies get you down.
if we were all
out in the schoolyard, the bullies could be made short work
of, as bullism so
often develops when recognition of one's own insecurities
far outweigh the
achievements of another, and give rise to the inarticulate
bellowings we
were barraged by over the last few weeks or months...
the bully rod
pushed ron whitehead off this list ( & a few others, but
mainly rod).
just feeling sad,
and btw gerry, yr
memory babe is the undisputed best bio, in my own humble
opinion.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:20:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Happy Birthday ALLEN GINSBERG !!!!!
Don't want to
make this too long or wordy or whatever.
in the many
eulogies in the
spring a common thread was that AG would be with us
eternally in memories. don't know who started that idea. don't know if
i believe it or
even if it's true. but it sounds like a
NICE idea. So
part of that
remembrance seems to be a
Surprise
Cypber-Birthday Party for Allen Ginsberg.
It will take all
our energies and finger playing with the imaginary cake
and who will will
decide the number of candles -- all forms of ruckus
celebration is
possible.
let the
celebration begin !!!!!!!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:34:14 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg and FBI
I found this
somewhere on the net about
Ginsberg and the
FBI.
Undoubtedly
they'll be at the birthday party. It
might be a surprise to
Allen but not to
them.
Commenting on the
FBI's activities in the literary political arena,
Ginsberg said,
"Why did the FBI
lay off the Mafia
and instead bust the alternative media, scapegoating
Leroi Jones,
ganging up on
Jane Fonda, Tom
Hayden, Martin Luther King, Jr., antiwar hero David
Dellinger, even
putting me
on a 'Dangerous
Subversive' Internal Security list in 1965 - the same
year I was kicked
out of
Havana and Prague
for talking and chanting back to the Communist police?
'The fox condemns
the
trap, not
himself,' as Blake wrote in Proverbs in Hell. "
I don't know how
to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
called) into my
message. I'm on Netscape (if that helps
any government
agents or beats
who might assist me ... :)
I love Allen
Ginsberg
let that be
recorded in heaven's
unchangeable
heart.
just popped off
my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
and what some
voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
party.
Happy Birthday to
you....
Happy
Happy
Happy
Sad
the line
within
the
between of the
IT
one guesses now
and then.....
IT Birthday to
you
IT Birthday to
you
Birthday
(i'll let someone
else begin playing there if they like)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:57:28 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Apologies to Chaput & List
Comments: To:
luckfry@netway1.mdc.net
In a post I made
a few days ago, I made the mistake of attributing a comment
someone made
about "faggots" to Phil Chaput.
I later learned
from a conversation I had with another Beat-L member, that I
was wrong about
who sent the "faggot" statement. I apology to Phil and all
the other members
on the list for my error.
Sincerely,
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:59:20 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: List changes
Dear Beat-L
listmembers and administrators:
I wish to go on
record as being adamantly opposed to the list change
posted by Fred
Bogin (see below).
If this new
policy is not immediately reversed I will have every reason
to unsubscribe
immediately, and will encourage everyone else on the list
to do so as well.
I do not see this
new policy as something that will kill the list.
I SEE IT AS THE
DEATH OF THE LIST.
Thank you,
John Hasbrouck
Chicago
Fred Bogin wrote:
>Hi folks,
>Excuse me
while I pull on my hip boots to wade in here.
>Effective
immediately, all replies to postings on beat-l will go to the
>original
sender, NOT the list, unless otherwise specified.
>fred
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:45:57 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> If you want
me to leave the list, let me know. I'm
willing to let
> the majority
rule on that. Tell Levi and all the
others to come back and
> cast their
vote.
> P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
> MEMORY BABE,
the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
> Ginsberg's
birthday.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
Gerry,
Congrats on the
anniversary! I'm sorry it's at a time
when things are
obviously so
emotional. I personally do not want you
to leave the list.
I do want you to stop rehashing the same
points about estate matters.
Pursue the matter
in the courts. Report on new
developments or rulings.
And, in the meantime, talk to us about Jack,
talk to us about Jan, tell
us from personal
experience what it was like to write the book, tell us
about some of
experiences of people on the 300 tapes, we can't hear for
ourselves, share
the wealth of knowledge that you have that we don't.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:23:16 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Happy Birthday Allen
We're celebrating
Allen's birthday with a small exhibit in the library.
I hope to see
some of you at the reading in Paterson next Sunday.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:28:33 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>JH in
chicago: i dig yr project but cant agree with you here.
>it seems like
90% of posts are taken up w/name droppers, travel excusion
>more
relevantly private (like so and so will be here tomorrwo, etc) as well
>as name
calling best suited to filthy gas station doors, than here.
>i have become
disillusioned that some of the movers and shakers of the beat
>renaissance
now choose to rail and flail. reminds me too much of JK in
>florida
before hemmoraging to death on bathroom floor.
>i'm so
disillusioned,
>and this is
coming from someone whose very nature is psychotically optimistic.
>sad sad sad.
>mc
Marie:
Disillusionment
can be quite healthy. It is, after all, the removal of
one's illusions.
And however cherished these illusions are, they
nonetheless are
what they are.
You mention my
project, and I assume you refer to my Chronological Beat
Reading Project
that I began about three years ago, in which I attempted
to read the
novels, correspondence, memiors, poems and bios of Kerouac,
Ginsberg,
Burroughs and Cassady (and their closest associates)
chronologically,
that is, year by year, month by month, week by week,
day by day and
sometimes hour by hour, (like when I find two letters
with the same
date and have to determine by content which was written
earlier in the
day).
I'd like to tell
you where I'm at with that, if I may.
The project is
naive. It is non-scholarly. It is for kicks. Literary
Kicks. And it is
one of the most interesting and aesthetically
gratifying
reading experiences I've ever had. I speak as a common reader
- and one who is
not particularly well-read (but hey, I am at the very
least a Devoted
Reader. I mean, I own Mortimer Adler's desk and reading
chair. I read as
if my life depended on it, dammit.)
Frankly the
project is on a haitus which may last several years. I put
it on hold when I
learned (from the editor himself) that Ginsberg's
Selected Letters
won't be out for a long time. After two years of
intensive reading
which involved the constant juggling of 20 or so Beat
volumes at a time
while sitting at Dr. Adler's desk, I only made it up
to the early
summer of 1953. But ya know...
I too am
disillusioned. Gone is my popular conception of the Beats as
liberated
literary saints. At 35, I look back at myself as the
19-year-old
undergrad who's life was changed by ON THE ROAD and think of
how innocent and
romantic I was. And I think of Jack Kerouac. I think of
Dean Mo-ri-ar-ty.
But I learned
some things from the project. I learned what Ginsberg
meant when he
said in the film KEROUAC, <He (Jack) could write ALL
DAY!> I
learned what Burroughs meant when he said Jack was a REAL
WRITER. I mean,
shit, 80% of my chronological reading was Kerouac. The
others were
barely beginning. With half the population nowadays calling
themselves
writers it behooves one to consider Jack as Writer, sitting
in the corner of
Burroughs' flat in Tangier writing longhand, asking not
to be
disturbed...speed-typing on bennies...cranking out the first
scroll of OTR on
caffiene, no doubt breaking only to pee, shouting for
sandwiches from
his new wife whom he would leave almost the moment the
manuscript was
done.
But there's
another side to the coin - Kerouac the egomaniac, who, in
self-conscious
letters to Neal, speaks to Me, John Hasbrouck, saying
<yes, dear
reader> and going on like he's God's gift to writing, which,
despite the
sentiments of many of his belated readers, He Was Not.
(While reading
MAGGIE CASSADY, I remember thinking *If he says REDBRICK
one more time I'm
going to throw this book out the window!!*)
Actually, Marie,
I'm tempted state that my reading project ended up
being a Grand
Exercise In Disillusionment. It was like an enormous
psychic purge. I
AM NOT BEAT. NOT ANYMORE - IF I EVER WAS (despite
100,000+ miles on
the road as a musician and 15 years of constant
intoxication
which ended in '90). As much as I love those guys,
reflecting on the
powerful and emotional inspiration I felt (and
continue to
feel), physically, in my belly, when I read them sometimes
(like that bit in
OTR which JK actually took from a letter of his to
somebody where he
writes about dissolving into fantasy while walking
down a street in
SF and peering into the window of a bakery(?) and
making eye
contact an old woman whom he percieved to have been his
mother centuries
ago and...you know the passage...and his ego-self
evaporates into
10,000 mystical droplets of air...yes...that's Jack The
Writer I
know...fully revised and tightly-knit prose calculated for
maximum
impact...albeit originating in a spontaneous burst prose
transcribed from
the image before his mind's eye.) As much as I love
them, I try to
maintain a perspective, as they say...
I'd better stop,
even though I haven't even mentioned my thoughts on
reading Allen,
Bill and Neal chronologically. Some other time,
perhaps...
I'm reading
Genet. You?
As ever,
John Hasbrouck
Chicago
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:16:07 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a listener
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> One explanation may be that they listen all
the time...probably even
> use my tax
money to pay some low level listener. Or there may be other
>
explanations..but what? That is why i rant when I damn please, but try not to
> hurt
anyones's feelings (too much).
> C. Plymell
Sounds like a
damn good philosophy to me. Welcome
back! On sort of a
side note, I was
reading Time Magazine this week (can just hear Ginsberg
in America,
saying, "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by
Time Magazine?
I'm obesessed by Time Magazine. I read
it every week.
Its cover stares
at me every time I slink by the corner candystore...")
Anyway, one of
the articles is on "No Privacy on the Web" and how anyone
can find out
anything about anyone if they only know where to look. An
example they give
is Glen Robert's Stalker Home Page (which he made to
get people to
understand the real meaning of a world-wide information
database. There you can look up anything about anyone
by simply plugging
in a piece of
info about them and searching. One of
the things that's
there is access
to the FBI database. I wanted to type in
Allen Ginsberg
and see what
comes up, but I haven't had time. If
anyone is interested
in wasting some
time, the address is http://www.glr.com/stalk.html or you
can buy the
latest copy of Time Magazine.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:40:53 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
JWHasbrouck
wrote:
>
> Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> >JH in
chicago: i dig yr project but cant agree with you here.
> >it seems
like 90% of posts are taken up w/name droppers, travel excusion
> >more
relevantly private (like so and so will be here tomorrwo, etc) as well
> >as name
calling best suited to filthy gas station doors, than here.
> >i have
become disillusioned that some of the movers and shakers of the beat
>
>renaissance now choose to rail and flail. reminds me too much of JK in
> >florida
before hemmoraging to death on bathroom floor.
> >i'm so
disillusioned,
> >and this
is coming from someone whose very nature is psychotically
optimistic.
> >sad sad
sad.
>
> >mc
>
> Marie:
>
Disillusionment can be quite healthy. It is, after all, the removal of
> one's
illusions. And however cherished these illusions are, they
> nonetheless
are what they are.
>
> You mention
my project, and I assume you refer to my Chronological Beat
> Reading
Project that I began about three years ago, in which I attempted
> to read the
novels, correspondence, memiors, poems and bios of Kerouac,
> Ginsberg,
Burroughs and Cassady (and their closest associates)
>
chronologically, that is, year by year, month by month, week by week,
> day by day
and sometimes hour by hour, (like when I find two letters
> with the
same date and have to determine by content which was written
> earlier in
the day).
>
> I'd like to
tell you where I'm at with that, if I may.
>
> The project
is naive. It is non-scholarly. It is for kicks. Literary
> Kicks. And
it is one of the most interesting and aesthetically
> gratifying
reading experiences I've ever had. I speak as a common reader
> - and one
who is not particularly well-read (but hey, I am at the very
> least a
Devoted Reader. I mean, I own Mortimer Adler's desk and reading
> chair. I
read as if my life depended on it, dammit.)
>
> Frankly the
project is on a haitus which may last several years. I put
> it on hold
when I learned (from the editor himself) that Ginsberg's
> Selected
Letters won't be out for a long time. After two years of
> intensive reading
which involved the constant juggling of 20 or so Beat
> volumes at a
time while sitting at Dr. Adler's desk, I only made it up
> to the early
summer of 1953. But ya know...
>
> I too am
disillusioned. Gone is my popular conception of the Beats as
> liberated
literary saints. At 35, I look back at myself as the
> 19-year-old
undergrad who's life was changed by ON THE ROAD and think of
> how innocent
and romantic I was. And I think of Jack Kerouac. I think of
> Dean
Mo-ri-ar-ty.
>
> But I learned
some things from the project. I learned what Ginsberg
> meant when
he said in the film KEROUAC, <He (Jack) could write ALL
> DAY!> I
learned what Burroughs meant when he said Jack was a REAL
> WRITER. I
mean, shit, 80% of my chronological reading was Kerouac. The
> others were
barely beginning. With half the population nowadays calling
> themselves
writers it behooves one to consider Jack as Writer, sitting
> in the
corner of Burroughs' flat in Tangier writing longhand, asking not
> to be disturbed...speed-typing
on bennies...cranking out the first
> scroll of
OTR on caffiene, no doubt breaking only to pee, shouting for
> sandwiches
from his new wife whom he would leave almost the moment the
> manuscript
was done.
>
> But there's
another side to the coin - Kerouac the egomaniac, who, in
>
self-conscious letters to Neal, speaks to Me, John Hasbrouck, saying
> <yes,
dear reader> and going on like he's God's gift to writing, which,
> despite the
sentiments of many of his belated readers, He Was Not.
> (While
reading MAGGIE CASSADY, I remember thinking *If he says REDBRICK
> one more
time I'm going to throw this book out the window!!*)
>
> Actually,
Marie, I'm tempted state that my reading project ended up
> being a
Grand Exercise In Disillusionment. It was like an enormous
> psychic
purge. I AM NOT BEAT. NOT ANYMORE - IF I EVER WAS (despite
> 100,000+
miles on the road as a musician and 15 years of constant
> intoxication
which ended in '90). As much as I love those guys,
> reflecting
on the powerful and emotional inspiration I felt (and
> continue to
feel), physically, in my belly, when I read them sometimes
> (like that
bit in OTR which JK actually took from a letter of his to
> somebody
where he writes about dissolving into fantasy while walking
> down a
street in SF and peering into the window of a bakery(?) and
> making eye
contact an old woman whom he percieved to have been his
> mother
centuries ago and...you know the passage...and his ego-self
> evaporates
into 10,000 mystical droplets of air...yes...that's Jack The
> Writer I
know...fully revised and tightly-knit prose calculated for
> maximum
impact...albeit originating in a spontaneous burst prose
> transcribed
from the image before his mind's eye.) As much as I love
> them, I try
to maintain a perspective, as they say...
>
> I'd better
stop, even though I haven't even mentioned my thoughts on
> reading
Allen, Bill and Neal chronologically. Some other time,
> perhaps...
>
> I'm reading
Genet. You?
>
> As ever,
> John
Hasbrouck
> Chicago
This is
completely unrelated but still related.
Today i thought damn
i'd like to know
when these events took place as much as i'd like to
know when D-Day
was. I'd be really interested in knowing
if there is
some form of
Beat-L/Generation Calendar that highlights in a few words
significant
events in the Beat Generation.
It would be
chronological - but not chronological in that it would
constrain things
to one year at a time. I don't buy
calendars often and
rarely care what
day it is, but i think that i would buy something like
that.
Perhaps that is
another project for Jeffrey Weinberg .... :)
I see the
web-site is
coming along.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:47:47 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg birthday poem (was Ginsberg &
FBI)
RACE --- wrote:
>
> I love Allen
Ginsberg
> let that be
recorded in heaven's
> unchangeable
heart.
>
> just popped
off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
> and what
some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
> party.
>
> Happy
Birthday to you....
> Happy
> Happy
> Happy
Sad
> the line
> within
> the
> between of the
> IT
> one guesses now
> and then.....
> IT Birthday
to you
> IT Birthday
to you
>
> Birthday
>
> (i'll let
someone else begin playing there if they like)
Birthday for us
what is It for you?
you now in timeless eternity?
words here
stronger than ever
Do you miss?
miss city
manuscripts
words of Blake
corner store grass sun clouds
your first sunflower
cock
loves
The between of IT
heaven Nirvana paradise
union of the soul
and IT
I will celebrate you
today
words
soul
triumphant
(keep adding on)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:11:47 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33941D56.6477@midusa.net>
As a newbie to
this list, THIS is why I subscribed:
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> I found this
somewhere on the net about
>
> Ginsberg and
the FBI.
>
> Undoubtedly
they'll be at the birthday party. It
might be a surprise to
> Allen but
not to them.
>
> Commenting
on the FBI's activities in the literary political arena,
> Ginsberg
said, "Why did the FBI
> lay off the
Mafia and instead bust the alternative media, scapegoating
> Leroi Jones,
ganging up on
> Jane Fonda,
Tom Hayden, Martin Luther King, Jr., antiwar hero David
> Dellinger,
even putting me
> on a
'Dangerous Subversive' Internal Security list in 1965 - the same
> year I was
kicked out of
> Havana and
Prague for talking and chanting back to the Communist police?
> 'The fox condemns
the
> trap, not
himself,' as Blake wrote in Proverbs in Hell. "
>
> I don't know
how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
> called) into
my message. I'm on Netscape (if that
helps any government
> agents or
beats who might assist me ... :)
>
> I love Allen
Ginsberg
> let that be
recorded in heaven's
> unchangeable
heart.
>
> just popped
off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
> and what
some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
> party.
>
> Happy
Birthday to you....
> Happy
> Happy
> Happy
Sad
> the line
> within
> the
> between of the
> IT
> one guesses now
> and then.....
> IT Birthday to
you
> IT Birthday
to you
>
> Birthday
>
> (i'll let
someone else begin playing there if they like)
David, you could
have typed the URL in, along with everything else.
Would have been
nice. (The birthday song left me a bit
flat but hey...
Great Post! Wish they were all like this.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:05:45 -0500
Reply-To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "E.j.C."
<beat@SKY.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments: To:
Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970603120827.15940D-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Does anyone have
that msg from a while back about the info you can
purchase from the
FBI and CIA on 'The A. Ginsberg Files'? If someone could
either send it to
me or post it to the list, i'd appreciate it. Thanx!
-j-EnnIfEr c.
beat@sky.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:09:15 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Hey, Mr. T-shirt man!
Dear Jeffrey:
How soon do you
need the money for the t-shirts? Sorry
to bother the list
with this, but I
don't have his e-mail address readily available.
Diane. (Homza)
--
"This is
Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:07:34 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments: To:
"E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.GSO.3.93.970603120335.5703A-100000@sky.net>
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, E.j.C. wrote:
> Does anyone
have that msg from a while back about the info you can
> purchase
from the FBI and CIA on 'The A. Ginsberg Files'?
Yes, actually I
sent away for both a few weeks ago. Each may cost up to $25
but I haven't yet
heard from them -- I was going to make an announcement on
the list if/when
I get the stuff that anyone who would settle for
photocopies could
get them from myself for the cost of postage and
photocopies.
The addresses to
send to are:
FBI Freedom of
Information Act Unit
Federal Bureau of
Investigation
9th & Pennsylvania
Avenue N.W.
Washington,
DC 20535
USA
Lee Strickland
Central
Intelligence Agency
Office of
Information & Privacy
Washington,
DC 20505
USA
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:37:48 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
The answer to the
question about why the FBI pursued people like Allen while
going easy on
many elements of organized crime is very simple.
J. Edgar Hoover
ran the FBI with an iorn fist. He was
"in bed" with
organized crime,
they used to let him win at the horse races (a great passion
of Hoover's) and
they probably could blackmail Hoover about his
homosexuality. Hoover was obsessed by communists, real and
imagined. So, in
his very twisted
mind, people like Allen were threats to the country while
organized crime
figures (who were definately not communists!) were OK. There
are many good
bios of Hoover that are well worth reading.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:42:25 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments: To:
Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Michael Stutz
wrote:
>
> On Tue, 3
Jun 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
> > I don't
know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
> > called)
into my message. I'm on Netscape (if
that helps any government
> > agents
or beats who might assist me ... :)
>
> see if you
can cut and paste it with the shift and arrow keys or your mouse.
> shift-del
cuts, shift-ins inserts. if not, just type it -- as long as it
> looks like
this
>
>
http://somecomputer/someresource-or-whatever
>
> with the
http:// or ftp:// or whatever in front and the whole thing like
> that,
everyone can see it and all the software can interpret it correctly.
A special note to
Sisyphus. It also would have been easy
for you to do
a damn net
search. I suffer from anxiety related
health problems and
the type of
technical stuff which i have no clue about and fear could
blow my computer
up that you're asking me to do sends me near the edge.
i hope that
you're happy. i'm very sorry that it
isn't in the fancy
blue .
i'm also sorry
that i turned my computer back on. i was
only hoping to
recognize
Ginsberg's birthday. Not get a bunch of
comments about what a
technological
idiot i am.
I know that i am
a technological idiot. i'm so stressed
right now that
i can't even
figure out what i'll have to do to get my computer back to
normal. but i have to do that so i can sign back off
the thing.
i hope you enjoy
the files.
david rhaesa
if there is an
easy way to make it in blue so it is easy will somebody
please teach me
backchannel at a kindergarten level. at
this point i
unbelievably
regret that i shared any information about this in the
first place.
you say good
post. this is exactly what you want to
see. and then you
bitch at me for
not doing it right. well i tried and i
hope you have a
good day ... i
won't. i'll have to take medication
which could probably
turn me into a
zombie for some time.
happy birthday
Ginsberg. i hope you're happy and i wish
i was with you.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/ginsberg-fbi.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:33:25 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes (fwd)
On June 2, 1997
Charles Plymell responded:
> Michael:
> ... Please
put that last post on the beat-l. There are a few
> people on
there who want to take it further and they deserve your
> input...
Yes I did three
of those Cornix Java scripts at:
www.buchenroth.com/cornixplymell.html
www.buchenroth.com/cornixoxy.html
www.buchenroth.com/cornixcommittee.html
or you can just
go to Charles' web site at
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
and those files' links reside near the
top. I used my
favorite line from "Last of the Moccasins" *Oxy-Biotic will
make you
neurotic* in one that I set at 1000 wpm, max'd flash'n. I also
made one out of
one of Charles' most recent poems, "Committee on Poetry" he
wrote April 5,
1997 etc. and that poem he suggested "Be Bop in Kansas."
BTW, I listed
ISGS' site's url wrong, Correct URL:
http://www.crl.com/~isgs/isgshome.html
In case. I also
have a number of G.S. sites linked on my CELM web site
"Literary
Links."
I agree Jaynes
really got me ta think'n! Look'n back now, that evolution
idea just fits
with all these other things I had read and think about. So
I reread Jaynes
earlier this year. Have you read about David Bohm's
implicate/explicate
order? Or the idea of a holographic universe. Or F
David Peat's
interpretations of Bohm. With Bohm being a physicist and all
his material
needs someone like Betrand Russell to explain it. That's
what Peat does
for Bohm. They even co-wrote a couple books right there
before Bohm died.
Another excellent biographical source (it even includes
Jaynes' book) is
Michael Talbot's "The Holographic Universe." Have you
read that
book? Bohm describes a point of view where
electrons exist
as alive as humans! Why not? One exists as the other.
In other words,
Bohms writes of rocks existing alive like us. He
considered the
EPR Paradox as an example of one of our first peeks into
his implicate
order. If we listen hard enuf, rocks have much to say. "Get
off me you
asshole!" for beginners perhaps... Wm S Burroughs has
that talking
asshole in "Naked Lunch!" And in my opinion, that asshole
did more than
just talk, it was a comedian! A real standup asshole...
I had read once
where at one time becuz Jaynes had tenure at Princeton, and
the Pillars of
Tradition couldn't so readily Leary him on outta there,
they did stuff
like assign him office space beneath a stairwell with this
real neat older
Janitor who then got Jaynes think'n about some other
stuff. I don't
know if that really happened. But I guess they did work
hard to get rid
of him just becuz of his Bicamerial Mind and Evolution of
Consciousness
book. I agree with ya, the psych types couldn't deal with
that!
But it makes such
perfect sense! The G.S connection of processes
and change or
evolution or of constantly changing meaning as well
as finite
lexicons producing infinite sentence combination possibilities
(one rock spoke;
two rocks spoke; three rocks spoke;
one-million rocks
spoke; a big ass boulder screamed for all to shut-up,
I'm try'n to lie
here, etc.), but mostly meaning changes and evolving and
of mind being
meaning and Whitman's Song of Thyself
and us just being
a sum total of what we have experienced and
Jaynes with
Illiad listening to rocks and Gods from within! Why not?
I wonder how
we'll worship the first inplants? Propaganda electrodes?
Penfield
stimulations and olefactory memories.
God that smells
good!
You have a stone
in your shoe? Well stick your finger there inta that
socket and smell
ya burn'n flesh and tell me what you see.
What color is
that flash?
I apologize for
ramblin on...but you guys just hit a note personal to me
with all this
talk of Korzybski and Jaynes right there in one paragraph!
-Mike
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/maga
zine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:51:27 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: everybody pop a pill and CHILL
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
In-Reply-To: <33945781.5DB7@midusa.net>
whoah whoah easy
there, race--
i was not
criticising you at all and to tell you the truth i have no idea
what url it was
you were even trying to quote--
i just saw this
paragraph while skimming your message
> > > I
don't know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
> > >
called) into my message. I'm on Netscape
(if that helps any government
> > >
agents or beats who might assist me ... :)
and almost
deleted it but decided to reply,
to assist you,
with this
> > see if
you can cut and paste it with the shift and arrow keys or your mouse.
> >
shift-del cuts, shift-ins inserts. if not, just type it -- as long as it
> > looks
like this
> >
> >
http://somecomputer/someresource-or-whatever
> >
> > with
the http:// or ftp:// or whatever in front and the whole thing like
> > that,
everyone can see it and all the software can interpret it correctly.
to help you out,
thinking that you
didn't know how to put an url in a text message and hoping
that my
explanation would help you out in the future.
i wasn't flaming
you, really.
> i'm very
sorry that it isn't in the fancy blue .
i hate all the
corporate neo-techno crap anyway; my views are usually black
and white.
> I know that
i am a technological idiot.
you forget that
'nature' is highest technology. all universe is technology.
> if there is
an easy way to make it in blue so it is easy will somebody
> please teach
me backchannel at a kindergarten level.
at this point i
> unbelievably
regret that i shared any information about this in the
> first place.
you shouldn't!
that was the point of my private ("backchannel"?) message to
you!
> you say good
post. this is exactly what you want to
see. and then you
> bitch at me
for not doing it right.
i wasn't
bitching! remember when i flamed rinaldo, pissed at the list & his
damn italian
message the last straw? _that_ was bitching, this was trying to
help!
>
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/ginsberg-fbi.html
see there, you
did it.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:54:48 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes (fwd)
Comments: To:
"Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970603125135.14783A-100000@user2.infinet.com>
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
> Yes I did
three of those Cornix Java scripts at:
>
>
www.buchenroth.com/cornixplymell.html
>
www.buchenroth.com/cornixoxy.html
>
www.buchenroth.com/cornixcommittee.html
Cool. I finally
put my first novel online at
http://dsl.org/m/doc/lit/sunclipse.html
... there's three versions -- text,
PostScript and a
Cornix Java thingie. This work is different from most of
the stuff I've
written in its subject matter, and its probably considered
totally uncool by
anything going on today, but I'd really like to hear (in
private email)
what others think.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:03:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
>> I love
Allen Ginsberg
>> let that
be recorded in heaven's
>>
unchangeable heart.
>>
>> just
popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
>> and what
some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
>> party.
>>
And if you don't
have the recording you can hear this in kerouac's own at
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
First sound bite
under the picture.
It is good that
Ginsy learned that even under old uncle edgar the US was
eminently more
free than the countries run by the mass murdering dictators
he thought he
could visit and then was apparently given an eye opener after
he went to see
them (they were trying to use him).
J. Edgar all
ready knew what Ginsberg had to find out the hard way.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:15:33 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
In-Reply-To:
<970603133737_-228961320@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Every time I see
a pic of FBI Headquarters my mind's eye registers on that
picture of Jaye
Edgar Hoover in drag. What a pleasure that every law
enforcement agent
is forced to live with the same image.
What a sad,
troubled, vicious little punk* he was. As opposed to the happy,
untroubled,
kindly little gem AG was.
Sign me,
"Anonymous hacker," using grant's E-mail address to make him look
bad in
the eyes of law
enforcement across the country.
* PUNK, as in how
the word in used in the joint.
* * * * * * * * *
* * *
(Grant responds:
The above is a bum rap. Jaye Edgar thought enough of me to
set me up with
free board and room for a while back in the 60's. Caught up
on my reading,
quite smoking, saw a prisoner beat the handball champion of
the world three
games in a row, and worked with Frankie Sepulveda, the
Chicano (doing 10
years for less than a gram of pot) who laid the
foundation for
the Supreme Court's Leary (as in
Timothy) Decision. That's
one little piece
of legal history that Frank should have been creditied
with. And YES,
there were Beats in the can in the 60s. Or was that
Beatings. I forget.)
>The answer to
the question about why the FBI pursued people like Allen while
>going easy on
many elements of organized crime is very simple.
>
>J. Edgar
Hoover ran the FBI with an iorn fist. He
was "in bed" with
>organized
crime, they used to let him win at the horse races (a great passion
>of Hoover's)
and they probably could blackmail Hoover about his
>homosexuality. Hoover was obsessed by communists, real and
imagined. So, in
>his very
twisted mind, people like Allen were threats to the country while
>organized
crime figures (who were definately not communists!) were OK. There
>are many good
bios of Hoover that are well worth reading.
>
>Howard Park
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:25:24 -1000
Reply-To: Margaret Miura
<margaret@KALAMA.DOE.HAWAII.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Margaret Miura
<margaret@KALAMA.DOE.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg birthday poem (was Ginsberg
& FBI)
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <339474E3.1ED3@together.net>
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
>
> > I love
Allen Ginsberg
> > let
that be recorded in heaven's
> >
unchangeable heart.
> >
> > just
popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
> > and
what some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
> > party.
> >
> > Happy
Birthday to you....
> > Happy
> > Happy
> > Happy
Sad
> > the line
> > within
> > the
> > between of the
> > IT
> > one guesses now
> > and then.....
> > IT
Birthday to you
> > IT
Birthday to you
> >
> > Birthday
> >
> > (i'll
let someone else begin playing there if they like)
>
> Birthday for us
> what is It for you?
> you now in timeless eternity?
> words here
> stronger than ever
> Do you miss?
> miss city
> manuscripts
> words of Blake
> corner store grass sun clouds
> your first sunflower
> cock
> loves
> The between of IT
> heaven Nirvana paradise
> union of the soul
> and IT
> I will celebrate you
> today
> words
> soul
> triumphant
>
> (keep adding
on)
>
IT becomes
IT is
Nirvana
For me, for you
this day of celebration
Blow upon me your wish
your dare
Silence of rhetoric
Explosion of words
HB AG 2U
and the CD played
on...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:52:12 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: List changes
In-Reply-To: <3393DCE5.679F@tezcat.com>
I'm having a
problem trying to understand why some list members are so
upset by the
cha-cha-cha-cha-cha-change. Cut and Paste is so easy. If you
have Eudora, and
I imagine many Internet software pkgs are he same, it's as
easy as clicking
on a name in your Recipient List.
j grant
>Dear Beat-L
listmembers and administrators:
>
>I wish to go
on record as being adamantly opposed to the list change
>posted by
Fred Bogin (see below).
>
>If this new
policy is not immediately reversed I will have every reason
>to
unsubscribe immediately, and will encourage everyone else on the list
>to do so as
well.
>
>I do not see
this new policy as something that will kill the list.
>I SEE IT AS
THE DEATH OF THE LIST.
>
>Thank you,
>John Hasbrouck
>Chicago
>
>Fred Bogin
wrote:
>
>>Hi folks,
>>Excuse me
while I pull on my hip boots to wade in here.
>>Effective
immediately, all replies to postings on beat-l will go to the
>>original
sender, NOT the list, unless otherwise specified.
>
>>fred
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:07:05 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Apology to Sisyphus
Sisyphus,
one of my
favorite mythic characters.
i wanted to
formally apologize for whatever i typed.
to those had never
seen a panic
attack in type - now you have. saw the
doctor. got things
cleared up. i'm supposed to say i don't know how to do
things when i
don't know how
and not feel guilty.
once again, sorry
for the outbursts to Sisyphus and any who had to read
it.
regretfully,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:13:48 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: John Cage
I just got home
from detention -- go ahead, Laugh -- where i read John
Cage's Lecture on
Nothing in a poetry anthology called From the Other
Side of the
Century:new american poetry 1960-1990.
It is Unreal!
fucking Amazing!
one of the
metrically dispers-ed lines is "I have nothing to say / and I am
saying it/ and
that is / poetry/ as I need it / . "
He goes on about
Music and talking about the fact that he's talking and
structure and
material and The great lack thereof.
In the middle-end
of the long thing is a section that is repeated for
pages, it is like
a repeating record, reminiscent of using the Cut-Up
machine that
Luke? a listmember has somewhere on the Net. Repeated it
gets a mysterious
chant feel to it that I, personally, find accompanying
a long
obtuseseeming cut-up--poem.
the section is
regenerated here loosely:
I have the feeling that we are getting
nowhere. Slowly , as the talk goes on
we are getting nowhere and that is a pleasure
. It is not iiritating to be
where one is . It is
only irritating
to think one would like to be somwhere
else.
.............
More and more we have the feeling
that I am getting nowhere
Slowly , as tha talk goes on
slowly , we have the feeling
we are getting nowhere. That is a pleasure
which will continue .
If we are irritated
it is not a pleasure Nothing is not a
pleasure if one is irritated ,
but suddenly
, it is a pleasure , and then more and more
it is not irritating (and then more and more
and slowly ). Originally
we were nowhere ; and now, again
, we are having the pleasure
of being slowly nowhere. If anybody
is sleepy , let him go to sleep.
And so forth and
much more and so on...
the point of my
post?--only this, read this.
:)
from,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
what I think I
heard in a piece of simple unstructured music on public radio:
there
are
no
clean
words
the singer:
unknown
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:43:28 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: JK: early '53
I'm a lousy
lurker.
In any case, I'm
reflecting on Kerouac's output of early 1953, during
which time he
stayed in his bedroom, high on tea, writing/typing MAGGIE
CASSIDY with
Memere in the next room. During the previous two years,
which may be
considered perhaps the most prolific period of his career,
he had completely
broken from the straight narrative style he used in
THE TOWN AND THE
CITY. The first scroll draft of ON THE ROAD (written
4/51) was of
course a major break from traditional forms. But the
sketching
technique used throughout VISIONS OF CODY (written about
10/51-3/30/51,
finished on his birthday) is equally significant.
(Question for GN,
or anybody: How much was Jack CONSCIOUSLY trying to
write his own
ULYSSES while writing VOC?) When VOC was done, Jack left
the Cassady's
attic to stay with Burroughs in Mexico. At this point he
wrote RAILROAD
EARTH and then, once settled in at Bill's place (and
proving himself
to be a less than ideal guest) his cranked out DR. SAX
in LONGHAND(!).
Regina Weinrich,
in her very interesting book <The Spontaneous Poetics
of Jack
Kerouac>, argues that with each of these books Jack was solving
a problem of
writing, and when the book was done, he set up another
problem to
tackle. (I've stated her thesis rather crudely.) I find this
theory
compelling. It seems to make sense.
But here's what
fascinates me about early '53: After going as far out as
he did with DR.
SAX, Jack came back and wrote MAGGIE CASSIDY in an
entirely (almost)
traditional narrative style. Granted, he wanted to get
published so he
was consciously writing a marketable book, (in fact, if
my memory serves
me correctly, when MC was rejected he really freaked,
wondering what
the hell he was doing writing all these damn books), but
I wanna know what
we can glean from the style of MC that helps us to
understand this
point in his evolution as a writer. (Question mark.) In
what respect(s)
is MC a more mature work than THE TOWN AND THE CITY?
(assuming that it
is...and, of course, it is) What can we say about
MAGGIE CASSIDY
that helps us understand it as a major novel by Jack
Kerouac at the
peak of his powers?
The LurkMeister
Wants To Know!
John Hasbrouck
Chicago
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:49:44 +0100
Reply-To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg birthday poem (was Ginsberg
& FBI)
In-Reply-To: <339474E3.1ED3@together.net>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
>
> > I love
Allen Ginsberg
> > let
that be recorded in heaven's
> >
unchangeable heart.
> >
> > just
popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
> > and
what some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
> > party.
> >
> > Happy
Birthday to you....
> > Happy
> > Happy
> > Happy
Sad
> > the line
> > within
> > the
> > between of the
> > IT
> > one guesses now
> > and then.....
> > IT
Birthday to you
> > IT
Birthday to you
> >
> > Birthday
> >
> > (i'll
let someone else begin playing there if they like)
>
> Birthday for us
> what is It for you?
> you now in timeless eternity?
> words here
> stronger than ever
> Do you miss?
> miss city
> manuscripts
> words of Blake
> corner store grass sun clouds
> your first sunflower
> cock
> loves
> The between of IT
> heaven Nirvana paradise
> union of the soul
> and IT
> I will celebrate you
> today
> words
> soul
> triumphant
but not.
or as triumphant as you want.
i suppose. I mean :
if you'd felt happy the whole time it
wouldn't mean
anything & you wouldn't have even
thought to write
about it.
right now is bad but i can still pick a lot
out of howl
[&when things are good i can pick
out a lot more, obviously]
happy birthday.
what I mean is, you earned it, most of
us won't.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:04:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: JK: early '53
At 04:43 PM
6/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm a lousy
lurker.
>
>In any case,
I'm reflecting on Kerouac's output of early 1953, during
>which time he
stayed in his bedroom, high on tea, writing/typing MAGGIE
>CASSIDY with
Memere in the next room. During the previous two years,
>which may be
considered perhaps the most prolific period of his career,
>he had
completely broken from the straight narrative style he used in
>THE TOWN AND
THE CITY. The first scroll draft of ON THE ROAD (written
>4/51) was of
course a major break from traditional forms. But the
>sketching
technique used throughout VISIONS OF CODY (written about
>10/51-3/30/51,
finished on his birthday) is equally significant.
>(Question for
GN, or anybody: How much was Jack CONSCIOUSLY trying to
>write his own
ULYSSES while writing VOC?)
This is hard to
say. But, I think there was a fair
amount of conscious
effort
there. But at the same time I think
there was as muc unconscious
effort in that he
was inspired by Ulysses and Joyce in general and by other
authors to let
himself find the way to produce literature words to convey
his insides and
what he wanted to tell.
I don't think if
a person sits down to write a Ulysses it will be good. But
if they have read
and appreciate and absorbed what Joyce did and tried to
accomplish and
have also been developing his or herself in terms of their
artistry, then
they can write their own Ulysses naturally.
I think he was
trying to do something in the spirit of Joyce, as well as
others he admired
and learned from. I think he was
conscious of it, but the
reason it worked
is because he was first true to his vision.
Now, here is
where the thing comes in. Kerouac's
notes may answer such a
question fairly
directly.
>When VOC was
done, Jack left
>the Cassady's
attic to stay with Burroughs in Mexico. At this point he
>wrote
RAILROAD EARTH and then, once settled in at Bill's place (and
>proving
himself to be a less than ideal guest) his cranked out DR. SAX
>in
LONGHAND(!).
>
Heard he sat in
the bathroom, maybe on the toilet seat itself.
>Regina
Weinrich, in her very interesting book <The Spontaneous Poetics
>of Jack
Kerouac>, argues that with each of these books Jack was solving
>a problem of
writing, and when the book was done, he set up another
>problem to
tackle. (I've stated her thesis rather crudely.) I find this
>theory
compelling. It seems to make sense.
>
I read her book a
while ago. Glad to see it is in
print. I have seen it at
Tower. It is worth reading for those with this type
of interest. I can't
relly comment on
her thesis.
>But here's
what fascinates me about early '53: After going as far out as
>he did with
DR. SAX, Jack came back and wrote MAGGIE CASSIDY in an
>entirely
(almost) traditional narrative style.
The new biography
Angel Headed Hipster is the first book that said Kerouac
actually had an
affair with "Maggie Cassidy".
His wrting this book, why it
got the attention
when their were still many projects in him is a good
question. I don't disagree at all with the commercial
possibilities he was
trying to
exploit. I think at the same time, that
kerouac was so into his
style and
oeuvre-production and art that he lost a little bit of perspective
in thinking that
this was a commercial book. Even the
rather traditional
Maggie Cassidy
had the stamp of Jack kerouac.
But with the
revelation that he maybe even fathered a child with this lady
(I am not sure
how far the affair went on--assuming it is true), he wrote it
after leaving the
Cassidy's after having an affair with Carolyn Cassidy. I
think he was
lonely and his thoughts turned to another woman he loved.
>Granted, he
wanted to get
>published so
he was consciously writing a marketable book, (in fact, if
>my memory
serves me correctly, when MC was rejected he really freaked,
>wondering
what the hell he was doing writing all these damn books), but
>I wanna know
what we can glean from the style of MC that helps us to
>understand
this point in his evolution as a writer. (Question mark.) In
>what
respect(s) is MC a more mature work than THE TOWN AND THE CITY?
>(assuming
that it is...and, of course, it is) What can we say about
>MAGGIE
CASSIDY that helps us understand it as a major novel by Jack
>Kerouac at
the peak of his powers?
>
It is the
revolution in the head as much as the revolution of the word
style. Even writing a trad narrative can't change
who the person is or has
become or do away
with the experiences he had and the insights and takes on
life he
accumulated in his travels (both leterally and philosophically or
metaphorically).
>The
LurkMeister Wants To Know!
>
>John
Hasbrouck
>Chicago
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:07:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Welcome Back Charles
In a message
dated 97-06-03 01:19:08 EDT, you write:
<< the
Psycho Poet exploded over a billboard
advertisement >>
Richard:
Yeah, I stayed
with Catfish overnight. First time I had been to Milwaukee. We
stayed up late
raking the Psycho Poets over the billboards.
He named all the
poets who had
visited the universities there typically 50 years behind the
times.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:18:29 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Old Road
In a message
dated 97-06-03 02:07:07 EDT, James Stauffer wrote:
<< Was that
Zap the genuine article? It had the blue
print but I
understand there are copies out there. Been following your footsteps
through Dr. Sax so that I will be able to
follow the Sax vs. Mocassins
heavyweight championship.
>>
James:
Yes it was indeed
the real thing that went through a pre-war multilith in Pam
and my flat in
San Francisco amid nude parties and Huncke (I think) lifting
our IBM
Selectric. Mostly I can tell by the paper, but I remember also the
typeface stripped
in Printed by Charles Plymell. I am not
used to such
generosity, since
the last original Plymell Zap I hear was sold for $1,400 at
Sotheby's.
Coincidentally last such generosity of spirit happened at the same
flat where Billy
Jharmark (Batman Gallery) gave Pam and me his 52 MGTD
classic. We sold
it on the street for $250. I have been trying to correct
myself by not
reselling treasures ever since. Keep ahold of your son's
scooter, are my
words of advice. I sent some things out to you today, but I'm
afraid it doesn't
match your generosity. However my poetry stocks might go up
someday.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:36:46 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Thanks
June 3, 1997
Just want to say thanks to all the warm
letters of support (many
private) that
I've received in the last couple of days.
I probably won't
have time to
answer all of them individually (I'm already over deadline on
the Vietnam book
and don't want to get over deadline on the autobiography
I'm committed to
write for CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS); but you know who you
are--so again,
thanks, from the bottom of my heart.
I plan to leave the Estate battle to
the courts, and to get back to
the far more
inspiring bloodbath that is the NBA championship series, with
my hometown
Chicago Bulls taking on the big, bad boys from Utah (as well as
small, wily John
Stockton). Will Dennis Rodman continue
his streak of
technical fouls?
Will he get tossed out again? Are there
any color
combinations he
hasn't tried yet for his hair?
Those are the really important
questions.
Adios for a bit, Gerry
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:56:23 -0400
Reply-To: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Would anyone have
an extra copy of last years NY Times' magazine article
about various
'beat' relatives (Caleb Carr,etc.)?
(or would you
know where I could get one?)
Carl
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:09:45 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
In a message
dated 97-06-03 14:26:50 EDT, you write:
<< There
are many good bios of Hoover that are well
worth reading. >>
Howard:
I thought it was
common knowledge about the whole twisted drag
Hoover/Giancomo
scene and the big G-man lie, but I guess people don't see
reality very
clearly when it is constantly superimposed with propaganda. I
urged Bob Peters
to do his one-man J. Edgar Hoover voice play/poem which I
understand he performs in black lace. Peters has retired from the English
dept. at UC
Irvine and his e-mail address is: baculum@mci2000.com
Sometimes I
become frustrated in having to repeat the reality of things as
you just did.
Funny how communication works.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:15:39 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
In a message
dated 97-06-03 15:30:21 EDT, you write:
<< It is
good that Ginsy learned that even under old uncle edgar the US was
eminently more free than the countries run by
the mass murdering dictators
he thought he could visit and then was
apparently given an eye opener after
he went to see them (they were trying to use
him).
J. Edgar all ready knew what Ginsberg had to
find out the hard way.
>>
The US is under
the subtle disguise of being "eminently more free". We are
happy consumer
slaves fully controlled and frame the Constitution as divine.
Burroughs said
the public is going to take the place apart. I told him the
other day that it
has already begun. Old freedoms and old values are nothing
but old
conversations and old political systems.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:18:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes (fwd)
Michael
I download it,
got to study it, what a rave. Should keep me occupied for a
while.
Thanks
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:06:47 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael Ravnitzky (by way of
stratis@odyssee.net Antoine
Maloney)"
<MikeRav@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael Ravnitzky (by way of
stratis@odyssee.net Antoine
Maloney)"
<MikeRav@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: FBI files Available for Many Beat Writers
Here you go
Jennifer...sORry abOut MISpellING
-j-EnnIfE!?!
Antoine
You can get the
FBI files on many writers of the beat generation.
For example, Jack
Kerouac had a file. So does Neil
Cassidy. And many,
many more. Many of these files are hundreds of pages
long. I've seen
them. But if you want to discuss them, you'll have
to get your own
copy. I don't discuss contents until someone gets
their own copy.
You can also get
the FBI file of anyone else, as long as they are dead.
[Note: you can also get a file of someone who is
alive, but you'll need
their written,
notarized letter of permission. So if
you want the file
for William
Burroughs or Allen Ginsberg or..... why not ask them.]
To get someone's
FBI file, just send a simple letter to the same
address as the
form letter below. You don't need any
fancy
language, though,
just a simple letter of request including:
full name or
names of the person
date of birth and
date of death of the person
place of birth
and place of death of the person
some proof that
the person is dead, such as a newspaper obituary,
newspaper or
magazine article talking about the fact that the person is
dead, an
encyclopedia article, a specialized encyclopedia, a
biographical
dictionary, Who Was Who in America, or something else like
a death
certificate. A librarian can find something
for you in five
minutes if you
ask at a library.
If you ask for
the file of someone else, not yourself, you DON'T need to
get the letter
notarized. But if you ask for your own
file, you DO need
to get the letter
notarized.
Just send the request
to:
Federal Bureau of
Investigation
Records Resources
Division - Attn: FOIA/PA Office
J. Edgar Hoover
Building
9th &
Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington,
DC 20535
Dear Sirs:
This is a request
under the Freedom of Information Act.
Please send the
all records you
have concerning XXXXXXXXXXX. Please
check your recent
computer indexes
as well as the older indexes and ELSUR indexes.
FOIA/PA statutes
provide that even if some of the requested material is
properly exempt
from mandatory disclosure, all segregable portions must
be released. If
the requested material is released with deletions,
please mark each
deletion to indicate the exemption(s) being claimed to
authorize each
particular withholding. In addition, I
ask that your
agency exercise
its discretion to release records which may be
technically
exempt, but where withholding serves no important public
interest.
I hereby agree to
pay reasonable costs associated with this request up
to a maximum of
$30. Please notify me if the fees are
expected to
exceed this
amount. I am aware that this request may
take slightly
longer than the
time limit of 10 working days provided by law.
Signed,
___________________
I hope that this
is useful to the list.
Michael Ravnitzky
St. Paul, Minn.
MikeRav@ix.netcom.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:07:12 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
I'm not able to
crank 1000wpm, not even 450. I'll try agian with the be-bop
poem and the
three Cornix Java scripts you posted. I
want to clarify that
the type style
looks like "comix' instead of "CORNIX" which I wrote in caps
to distinguish
the "rn" from "m". This type screwed the address. I'd also
like to know if
anyone else is having trouble with the flashes? Please let me
know your take on
them Thanks.
C. Plymell
Find at:
WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXPLYMELL.HTML
WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXOXY.HTML
WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXCOMMITTEE.HTML
or you can just
go to my website at:
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
and those files' links reside near the top.
I am particularly interested in how the poem I
wrote at Ginsberg's committee
on poetry the day
he died came out in CORNIX JAVA flash.
Thanks again for
any comments or potential problems.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:01:29 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33945781.5DB7@midusa.net>
David, I already
read your apology, so I don't take offense at this.
Hell, it's
excellent stream-of-consciousness. (hey,
at least we don't
scream at each
other, right?) Go with it. If I find it boring, I'll
feel free to say
so; OK?
[parts of thread
follow:]
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Michael
Stutz wrote:
> >
> > On Tue,
3 Jun 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> >
> > > I
don't know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
> > >
called) into my message. I'm on Netscape
(if that helps any government
> > >
agents or beats who might assist me ... :)
> >
> > see if
you can cut and paste it with the shift and arrow keys or your mouse.
> >
shift-del cuts, shift-ins inserts. if not, just type it -- as long as it
> > looks
like this
> >
> >
http://somecomputer/someresource-or-whatever
snipped! to this:
>
> A special
note to Sisyphus. It also would have
been easy for you to do
> a damn net
search. I suffer from anxiety related
health problems and
> the type of
technical stuff which i have no clue about and fear could
> blow my
computer up that you're asking me to do sends me near the edge.
> i hope that
you're happy. i'm very sorry that it
isn't in the fancy
> blue .
>
> i'm also
sorry that i turned my computer back on.
i was only hoping to
All the way down
to this:
>
>
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/ginsberg-fbi.html
>
Which is the URL
he hadn't posted in the first place.
want
ginsberg-fbi? don` wanna deal wiff no capitalism? read it all.
thanks, david.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 23:12:45 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Robert Peters & The XXX Hoover
Charles,
I'm not sure if I
thanked you for sending Robert Peters my way. The
XXX Hoover, from
Slime Comics should be a mandatory owner for every
household-including
squares. The Hunting Of The Snark is an unrecog-
nized classic in
the field. Jesus, it's good! I'm taking my time with
it so as not to
miss anything. It's good to have you back my friend.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:18:40 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Apology to Sisyphus
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33948778.229A@midusa.net>
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> once again,
sorry for the outbursts to Sisyphus and any who had to read
> it.
Hey man, I
thought it was an addition to the general chaos. Like,
relax, man. (grin)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:33:47 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
JWHasbrouck
wrote:
>
Disillusionment can be quite healthy. It is, after all, the removal of
> one's
illusions. And however cherished these illusions are, they
> nonetheless
are what they are.
>
> You mention
my project, and I assume you refer to my Chronological Beat
> Reading
Project that I began about three years ago, in which I attempted
> to read the
novels, correspondence, memiors, poems and bios of Kerouac,
> Ginsberg,
Burroughs and Cassady (and their closest associates)
>
chronologically, that is, year by year, month by month, week by week,
> day by day
and sometimes hour by hour, (like when I find two letters
> with the
same date and have to determine by content which was written
> earlier in
the day).
>
> I'd like to
tell you where I'm at with that, if I may.
>
> The project
is naive. It is non-scholarly. It is for kicks. Literary
> Kicks. And
it is one of the most interesting and aesthetically
> gratifying
reading experiences I've ever had. I speak as a common reader
> - and one
who is not particularly well-read (but hey, I am at the very
> least a
Devoted Reader. I mean, I own Mortimer Adler's desk and reading
> chair. I
read as if my life depended on it, dammit.)
>
> Frankly the
project is on a haitus which may last several years. I put
> it on hold
when I learned (from the editor himself) that Ginsberg's
> Selected
Letters won't be out for a long time. After two years of
> intensive
reading which involved the constant juggling of 20 or so Beat
> volumes at a
time while sitting at Dr. Adler's desk, I only made it up
> to the early
summer of 1953. But ya know...
>
> I too am
disillusioned. Gone is my popular conception of the Beats as
> liberated
literary saints. At 35, I look back at myself as the
> 19-year-old
undergrad who's life was changed by ON THE ROAD and think of
> how innocent
and romantic I was. And I think of Jack Kerouac. I think of
> Dean
Mo-ri-ar-ty.
>
> But I
learned some things from the project. I learned what Ginsberg
> meant when
he said in the film KEROUAC, <He (Jack) could write ALL
> DAY!> I
learned what Burroughs meant when he said Jack was a REAL
> WRITER. I
mean, shit, 80% of my chronological reading was Kerouac. The
> others were
barely beginning. With half the population nowadays calling
> themselves
writers it behooves one to consider Jack as Writer, sitting
> in the
corner of Burroughs' flat in Tangier writing longhand, asking not
> to be
disturbed...speed-typing on bennies...cranking out the first
> scroll of
OTR on caffiene, no doubt breaking only to pee, shouting for
> sandwiches
from his new wife whom he would leave almost the moment the
> manuscript
was done.
>
> But there's
another side to the coin - Kerouac the egomaniac, who, in
> self-conscious
letters to Neal, speaks to Me, John Hasbrouck, saying
> <yes,
dear reader> and going on like he's God's gift to writing, which,
> despite the
sentiments of many of his belated readers, He Was Not.
> (While
reading MAGGIE CASSADY, I remember thinking *If he says REDBRICK
> one more
time I'm going to throw this book out the window!!*)
>
> Actually,
Marie, I'm tempted state that my reading project ended up
> being a
Grand Exercise In Disillusionment. It was like an enormous
> psychic
purge. I AM NOT BEAT. NOT ANYMORE - IF I EVER WAS (despite
> 100,000+
miles on the road as a musician and 15 years of constant
> intoxication
which ended in '90). As much as I love those guys,
> reflecting
on the powerful and emotional inspiration I felt (and
> continue to
feel), physically, in my belly, when I read them sometimes
> (like that
bit in OTR which JK actually took from a letter of his to
> somebody
where he writes about dissolving into fantasy while walking
> down a
street in SF and peering into the window of a bakery(?) and
> making eye
contact an old woman whom he percieved to have been his
> mother
centuries ago and...you know the passage...and his ego-self
> evaporates
into 10,000 mystical droplets of air...yes...that's Jack The
> Writer I
know...fully revised and tightly-knit prose calculated for
> maximum
impact...albeit originating in a spontaneous burst prose
> transcribed
from the image before his mind's eye.) As much as I love
> them, I try
to maintain a perspective, as they say...
>
> I'd better
stop, even though I haven't even mentioned my thoughts on
> reading
Allen, Bill and Neal chronologically. Some other time,
> perhaps...
>
> I'm reading
Genet. You?
>
> As ever,
> John
Hasbrouck
> Chicago
John,
I don't believe
in leaving entire long posts, but this one is so good I
couldn't cut it
up. Caught me tonight as one of the most
thoughfull
ones I have read
in my time on this list.
I have noticed
myself having some of the same reactions to this
material. Loving it so much, but also sensing my own
distance from it,
sensing my own
not beatness or at least very selective
beatness.
I remember
enjoying some your earlier posts on the Chronological project
when I first came
on this list and am glad to hear that even if it's
quiescent you
intend to go forward. Certainly putting
Morimer Adlers
equipment to good
use.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:15:19 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Withdrawal from Beat-l
Now I've never
been addicted to anything worse that potato chips, but I'm
beginning to
appreciate Junky more and more this last day or two as the
Beat-l morphs
into a new and different animal.
When I was
backchanneling with Levi we were discussing one of the reasons he
felt a need to
take a break was because he said the Beat-l was taking over
his life and he
wasn't getting anything else done. I
said I was the same
way, that I had
gotten so consumed I had my mail icon sitting in a little
window off to the
side as I worked other applications and everytime that
thing flashed
"You Have Mail" (which was about every thirty seconds) I
dropped
everything and dove on it like a guy who hadn't eaten in a week.
My wife says
she's glad to see the changes to the Beat-l as she now has her
husband back!
If someone would
like to call me a dirty name I'd be much obliged...
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 04:53:44 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Withdrawal from Beat-l
Jerry Cimino
wrote:
>
> Now I've
never been addicted to anything worse that potato chips, but I'm
> beginning to
appreciate Junky more and more this last day or two as the
> Beat-l
morphs into a new and different animal.
>
> When I was
backchanneling with Levi we were discussing one of the reasons he
> felt a need
to take a break was because he said the Beat-l was taking over
> his life and
he wasn't getting anything else done. I
said I was the same
> way, that I
had gotten so consumed I had my mail icon sitting in a little
> window off
to the side as I worked other applications and everytime that
> thing flashed
"You Have Mail" (which was about every thirty seconds) I
> dropped
everything and dove on it like a guy who hadn't eaten in a week.
>
> My wife says
she's glad to see the changes to the Beat-l as she now has her
> husband
back!
>
> If someone
would like to call me a dirty name I'd be much obliged...
>
> Jerry Cimino
Jerry,
your name is MUD
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
glad to hear your wife likes you.
take care,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:00:38 EST
Reply-To: Richard D Raymond
<madhatter20@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard D Raymond <madhatter20@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: FYI: Lowell CELEBRATES Kerouac!
Read about your kerouac- fest and am
interested. send info to: ricky
raymond- 44
fortescue rd. newport, nj 08345. thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:52:13 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> I'm not able
to crank 1000wpm, not even 450. I'll try agian with the be-bop
> poem and the
three Cornix Java scripts you posted. I
want to clarify that
> the type
style looks like "comix' instead of "CORNIX" which I wrote in
caps
> to
distinguish the "rn" from "m". This type screwed the
address. I'd also
> like to know
if anyone else is having trouble with the flashes? Please let me
> know your
take on them Thanks.
> C. Plymell
> Find at:
>
WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXPLYMELL.HTML
>
WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXOXY.HTML
>
WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXCOMMITTEE.HTML
> or you can
just go to my website at:
>
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html and those files' links reside near the top.
> I am particularly interested in how the poem
I wrote at Ginsberg's committee
> on poetry
the day he died came out in CORNIX JAVA flash.
> Thanks again
for any comments or potential problems.
I really enjoyed
this game this morning. i found that if
i put it on a
thousand or
whatever top-end is and concentrated VERY hard for one zip
through the
content - then it was EASY to comprehend at around 75%
speed. It was slow by contrast.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:49:17 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: State of the list
I am on several
lists. Compared to any that I am on,
this is far and
away the
best. If you want to see a sick list,
check out the Dylan mail
list. I am about to unsubscribe to it. dylan is dead, youre an asshole
for saying that,
when is the new album coming out, lanois is evil, no
he's boring, no
he's a great producer, did I mention dylan left the
hospital, well he
got sick from chicken shit, no it was bat shit, and he
is a jew, no he
repudiated christianity, no he is a muslim, no he is a
jew for jesus (in
that way he would be VERY Christ
like)(hahahahahahahahah),
well, he is a supreficial christian, well if
he is not a
christian then my whole life is going to shatter into a room
full of mirrors
(hey, how did Hendrix get in here), i hate jakob, i love
jakob, don't talk
about jakob here, im gonna committ suicide, dylan is
dead, no he was
just visiting Elvis.
Man, this list is
GREAT. I have been reading Nicosia and
Charles
Plymell and then
some great stuff on top of that. It has
been said if
it was a cyber
snake, it would have cyber bitten you.
As Jesus really
did say, he who
has eyes, let him see.
Dylan is dead,
you asshole, every time you attack the asshole who said
that you reuse
the Dylan is dead referenece and piss us all off again,
dylan was killed
in a motorcyle accident in the 60's you idiots.
It was
the same wreck
that got Paul McCartney. That is the
TRUTH. Try to
prove otherwise.
;-)
Peace,
Rave on Charles.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:26:58 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970603230501_454258580@emout19.mail.aol.com>
On Tue, 3 Jun
1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I'd also
like to know if anyone else is having trouble with the flashes?
I did at first
but not anymore. The original applet I first downloaded had
expired and when I
first checked out your bioxy flash it was the newer
version and for
whatever reason the whole applet square would blink every
time a new word
appeared. Dowloaded it and tried it on my own and had the
same problem, but
I think it was just my Netscrape session at the time,
because now it
works fine.
> I am particularly interested in how the poem
I wrote at Ginsberg's committee
> on poetry
the day he died came out in CORNIX JAVA flash.
I love this. The
words come pouring out in a stream that I think works very
well with any
"stream of consciousness" or "first thought/best thought"
or
"spoken
idiom" style of writing.
Looking at
"Committee" again makes me think this computerized technique has
merit and is
worth further study, but I have some problems with the Cornix
applet in
general.
The main problem
I have with it is a technical one that I'll spare boring
the list with.
That is, it is not free software; it's technically a variant
of
"snareware," being non-modifiable (you don't have access to the
program
instructions).
This I strongly believe inhibits its long-term use for
serious
literature. But I don't think the problem is inherent to the idea of
streamed text,
because a programmer can just write a free version of the
software (any
ready & willing Java coders out there?).
Other complaints
I have with it are tangential to this first one, because if
it was free
software it could be modified to do all these things. First, I
don't like the
buttons on the top. I'd like the screen to consist of just
the poetry or
prose or whatever and no excess junk.
There also should
be a horizontal scroll bar to control your "position" in
the document. The
horizontal scrollbar that's already there controls the
speed; this
should be a vertical control, off the the right and/or left.
That horizontal
bar should start at the left side at the beginning of the
document and
travel across the screen at the appropriate speed as the
document flashes
by so that the reader can determine her position in the
document.
Otherwise, how do you know where you are? "Lost in hyperspace."
Also, the thing
loops when its finished. I don't like this, because when I
read
"Committee," it has such a powerful ending but I didn't have time to
digest it -- I
just got flashed back to the beginning to read Plymell for
eternity. This
isn't good. It should stop at the end, and then restart by
hitting the START
button.
Finally, another
thing I hate about it is that it doesn't seem to respect
paragraph breaks
or tell the difference between spacing. I saw this with
_Sunclipse_ and
it drove me nuts -- I think the Cornix applet is an
interesting way
to read _Sunclipse_ and other things but you're going to
have serious
problems digesting the material properly because the applet
doesn't pause
between paragraphs, sections and chapters. So a section will
end and a new one
will start at the same speed of two adjacent sentences.
Same with two
chapters. I believe that some time -- a few seconds maybe --
should be taken
by a reader when completing a chapter; I think this is
normal & its
normal to look at the page and the last sentence a little
longer, a little
natural pause, when completing a chapter, but Cornix
doesn't do that.
I'd think this
would be worse with poetry, where spacing often has more
importance.
"Committee" ran as one long burst with no pausing between
stanzas. It had
an interesting effect in this case but I think that some
controls for
blank spaces should be configurable.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:51:14 EST
Reply-To: Richard D Raymond
<madhatter20@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard D Raymond
<madhatter20@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Neophyte
Hey kids, I am Ricky, a newbie and relative
youngster. I am newly
intrigued by the
beat writers since allen's death. could you recommend
any useful books
and websites,and is there an address where i can get
ahold of audio
recordings? alas, my local record store is ginsberg-
deprived thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:24:09 -0500
Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Subject: THE LIST
The discussion of the numbers of BEAT-L
members has me curious: is
200-250 a typical
membership for a listserve such as this?
Does anyone
know? Given the supposed global reach of the
internet and the explosion of
interest in the
Beat Generation, it strikes me that the membership of this
list is very
limited. Does this mean the existence of
the list isn't
widely
known? Or that there isn't that much
interest in this sort of
forum? Or that fewer people are on-line than is
supposed? Or that
interest in the
Beats is exaggerated? What do you think?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:45:10 -0500
Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Subject: Ginsberg
There is a piece by Paul Berman called
"Allen Ginsberg's Secret"
published in the
latest issue of the on-line magazine SLATE.
Go to
http://www.slate.com/
and look in the section called "Back of the Book."
Robert Elliot Fox
Associate
Professor
Department of
English
Southern Illinois
University at Carbondale
Carbondale,
Illinois 62901
618-453-6864
bfox@siu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:42:00 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Withdrawal from Beat-l
Jerry Cimino
wrote:
>
> Now I've never
been addicted to anything worse that potato chips, but I'm
> beginning to
appreciate Junky more and more this last day or two as the
> Beat-l
morphs into a new and different animal.
>
> When I was
backchanneling with Levi we were discussing one of the reasons he
> felt a need
to take a break was because he said the Beat-l was taking over
> his life and
he wasn't getting anything else done. I
said I was the same
> way, that I
had gotten so consumed I had my mail icon sitting in a little
> window off
to the side as I worked other applications and everytime that
> thing
flashed "You Have Mail" (which was about every thirty seconds) I
> dropped
everything and dove on it like a guy who hadn't eaten in a week.
>
> My wife says
she's glad to see the changes to the Beat-l as she now has her
> husband
back!
>
> If someone
would like to call me a dirty name I'd be much obliged...
>
> Jerry Cimino
I totally
identify with what you're going through.
I think that this
beat-l community
is probably the best one the internet. I
have been
thrilled to find
it and to find other people of same mind sharing ideas.
I know that it takes a lot of time, it takes
over an hour or two of your
life every day.
but it was exciting coming home to 82 messages every day
that were at the
very least passionate in some way. And,
everytime I was
working in the
computer, I too would click on that little mailbox to see
what was going
on. Maybe we should start drinking and
writing in little
beat-l journals
or something to ease the pain of 17 messages a day...
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:59:06 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: experiments in point of view
In-Reply-To: <33915760.56CF@midusa.net>
ok gang. i'm
sending out a three part experiment, which is part of new
project, to take
several letters from one time period and (in this case)
one
correspondent, and see what shapes what. and choices. and all that.
part I is
original questionalbe poetry quicksketchtoss of what i had
gleaned in first
readings (re readings)
parts 2 and 3 are
prose pieces, which take each of both experiences
separately and
yet still parallel.
ack.
so here goes:
TALKING TO MYSELF
fragments and
scraps
found in the attic
from some time in
late sixites
(The original as
i typed it and words fought for their rights to choose own
place in the
neighborhood.)
I
talking to myself
i'm busy talking
to myself
sweet marie,
ill write a
letter
when something
happens
right now i'm
busy talking to myself
i
there doth seem
to be some truth
refuse
in the babbling
of the mad
TRUDGE
to
i still dont know
too many people
have
as i cant
remember my own name
in the local bar
i sit down on a bar stool
to
where all the
toughs sit
i order a pitcher
of beer.
work
i drink the whole
thing.
have to report
for draft physical
for
late oct/early
nov
no way out unless
i flunk the physical a
i'm not going to
eat
living
if dick gregory
can do it
so can i
*this*
write me because
my tonsils are swelling again is
and i think i'm
going to die (make it airmail)
alternate step 1
of master plan B:
my
(master plan A
was to lose my leg and 3 fingers
master plan A
alternate was to have the
manifesto
draft board
members
lose a leg and 3
fingers).
steal
master plan B was
to go to canada
which brings us
to alternate step 2
if
of master plan B
i'll show up with
all my plans
writ down plain
and clear
you
there doth be
some truth
in the babbling
of the mad
need
i truely hope i
will be recognized as such.
direction
I I
right now i'm
busy talking to myself
hey sweet marie,
got yr postcard.
typical.
i'll write a
letter when something happens. right now i'm busy talking to
myself. i'm
sitting here at the bar, enscribing this to you on the head of
a pin, and finding
within my infinite self that there doth be some truth in
the babbling of
the mad after all.
so here i am,
i'm sitting here
driving home from the ladies banquet , thinking of a
revenge suitable
for all occasions, unless, of course, it's been done
before.
Trudge.
later, i thumb a
ride in the rain.
guy leans over
and says howdy,
friendly like,
ok, my long hair
and all,
i bite.
"so what's
to be seen or done in the area, eh?"
"i still
don't know too many people
as i cant
remember my own name"
i get off shortly
afterward.
before i talk any
more,
i have to beg
write me as my
soul dwindles away..
also, please do
not lose my letters as you most likely be able to cash in
on them when i
write my memoirs.
and if my stories
seem a bit thin, its because i still don't know too many
people, as i cant
remember my last name.
III
the draft board
blues
the other night i
go to my bar feeling really blue and lonely and damned
rowdy. Sit down
at the bar, (where all the toughs sit) and order a pitcher
of beer. I drink
the whole thing and and notice this
asshole sitting next
to me (attitude
counts in these places of worship). So he's sitting there
smoking
cigarettes and flicking the ashes like he was shoveling dirt,
kicking the bar
when he wanted another beer, slamming his glass on the bar
every time he
took a sip. all of a sudden (halfway through my secon beer
pitcher) a dylan
song (off blonde on blonde) comes on the jukebox and this
dude starts
singing it- and i say to myself, 'this dont mix" - so i give
him some of my
garlic bread and ask him, "who in fuck do YOU know bob
dylan??
well, turns out
his father used to play bad guitar for johnny cash but
turned into an
alcoholic and cash dropped him..
i thought he was
full of shit so i asked him over to blow some dope, he
says ok and we
stagger out of the bar into his car. (i couldnt find
colorado U for
half an hour (mind you i walked there in 5 min).
finally we get to
my room, dead drunk and stoned out of our minds, i ask
him if he wants
to see my guitar, he says ok, but said he couldn't play
because he was
left handed. I upped the ante, "well, pard, you're in luck.
so am i." i
gave him the guitar.
..and he
entertained me for 3 hours, waking up the entire floor with our
sining and
footstoping. the dude was fantastic. i couldnt believe it. then
he was gone.
end of story.
bruce
ps please write
back because my tonsils are swelling again and i think i'm
going to die.
(air mail?)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:05:51 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
In-Reply-To:
<l03010d03afbaf73d4c90@[131.230.145.137]>
> There is a piece by Paul Berman called
"Allen Ginsberg's Secret"
>published in
the latest issue of the on-line magazine SLATE.
Go to
>http://www.slate.com/
and look in the section called "Back of the Book."
>
>Robert Elliot
Fox
>Associate
Professor
>Department of
English
>Southern
Illinois University at Carbondale
>Carbondale,
Illinois 62901
>618-453-6864
>bfox@siu.edu
In the process of
using the most recent Netscape Gold to go to Slate (my
first time there)
to read--and download-- Berman's piece I had to refuse
seven requests to
have a "cookie" placed on my computer.
This cookie
business is almost as outrageous as when Netscape (and others)
were placing them
on computers and not letting people know they were there.
If you have had a
server for a while, check deeply and there's a good
chance you'll
find one.
Long before these
software giants ever admitted that cookies existed a web
colleague and I
found them and couldn't figure out what they were for. We'd
delete them and
they'd be back the next day. Netscape would not asnswer
questions about
them. List members must know by now that
"cookies"
provides the
organization that placed it with a direct line into your
computer, your
computer travels, and AG only knows what else.
This kind of
intrusive crap really wears me out.
So it goes.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:38:59 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: wanted - spiritual mentor
wanted, spiritual
mentor
inspired by
kerouac, burroughs, nietzsche, gaarder, wilde,
huxley, voltaire
& dickens i need guidance crossing the road.
more a lust for
wisdom than a plea for help, gurus need
not apply.
joe
newcastleunitedkingdom
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:20:18 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: wanted - spiritual mentor
In-Reply-To:
<970604173858_100106.1102_EHU32-2@CompuServe.COM>
joe writes:
>wanted,
spiritual mentor
>
>inspired by
kerouac, burroughs, nietzsche, gaarder, wilde,
>huxley,
voltaire & dickens i need guidance crossing the road.
>
>more a lust
for wisdom than a plea for help, gurus need
>not apply.
>
>joe
>newcastleunitedkingdom
>
>
joe,
it's not picnic
blurs
blur
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:54:20 -0400
Reply-To: Carrie Sherlock
<csherloc@UOGUELPH.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carrie Sherlock
<csherloc@UOGUELPH.CA>
Subject: Re: THE LIST
Comments: To: Bob
Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<l03010d02afbaf0fcd46f@[131.230.145.137]>
Please take me
off the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:38:52 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: When was June ever wed so weary
When was June
ever wed so weary
with the white
caps
and the waves
wondering if
the wind were
winding
up into a whistle
to fall on your
withering grave
While I sat
lonely
while I stood
gazing
while I swam nude
into the sun
Maison du Soleil
saluting a sight
you always beheld
in the middle of
your palm
I gave you the
land
I gave you the
seas
you took the
roads
and shook the
rails
swallowing,
falling
kneeling,
climbing
pastures,
churches
cities, jails
I have the
circuits
mine is the cable
that lies frayed
at the edge of
the world
just a livewire
thrashing in tune
to the flame
where the evening
nestles, sleeps and curls
Some say I'm
happy
some say I'm busy
some say I miss
you more than you need
all that I ask
is a fresh round
of snakebites
and you
top of the table
for me to see
--Malcolm
Lawrence
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:40:15 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: The Meaning of Life
Afternoon, all...
For all you Tom
Waits fans out there in the cyberlounge...
A few years back
Time/Life came out with a couple of coffee table books
called The
Meaning of Life and More Reflections on the Meaning of Life,
where they ask
very prominent people from all walks of life what they
thought the
meaning of life was.
Enjoy
Malcs
---------------------------------------
While Calamity
Jane in a slow burlesque plays catch in a bone yard way at
the top of a
two-legged mare
it was a good
night full of bad dreams with flat champagne and leaves in my
hair, still
shooting at birds with a violin bow
first whisper
your dreams in your children's ears making them safe as a
hurricane
dangling from a spider web
and across the
plate with a swing and a crack with just a skull for a ball
and a leg-bone
bat
and all I
remember are sparkle rocks, blue horses and flamingos as the
train begins to
slow
and I always saw
better when my eyes were closed
--Tom Waits
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:09:58 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: last revision of experiment
In-Reply-To:
<9704248645.AA864508671@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>
Talking to myself
fragments and
scraps from years past
I
i'm busy talking
to myself,
sweet marie,
i'll write a
letter
when something
happens
right now i'm
busy talking to myself
i
there doth seem
to be some truth
refuse
in the babbling
of the mad
TRUDGE
to
i still dont know
too many people
have
as i cant remember my own name
in the local bar
i sit down on a bar stool
to
(where all the
toughs sit)
i order a pitcher
of beer.
work
i drink the whole
thing.
have to report
for draft physical
for
late oct/early
nov
no way out unless
i flunk the physical a
i'm not going to
eat.
living
if dick gregory
can do it
so can i *this*
write me because
my tonsils are swelling again is
and i think i'm
going to die (make it airmail)
my
manifesto!
steal it
if
you
there doth be
some truth
in the babbling
of the mad
need
i truely hope i
will be recognized as such.
direction
I I
right now i'm
busy talking to myself
hey sweet marie,
got yr postcard.
typical.
i'll write a
letter when something happens. right now i'm busy talking to
myself. i'm
sitting here at the bar, enscribing this to you on the head of
a pin, and
finding within my infinite self that there doth be some truth in
the babbling of
the mad after all.
so here i am,
i'm sitting here
driving home from
the ladies banquet ,
thinking of a
revenge suitable
for all occasions.
later, i thumb a
ride in the rain.
guy leans over
and says howdy,
friendly like,
ok, with my long
hair and all,
so i bite and ask
him,
"so what's
to be seen or done in the area, eh?"
welp, he replied
"i still
don't know too many people
as i cant
remember my own name"
i get off shortly
afterward.
before i talk any
more,
i have to beg
write me as my
soul dwindles away..
also, please do
not lose my letters as you most likely be able to cash in
on them when i
write my memoirs.
and if my stories
seem a bit thin, its because i still don't know too many
people, as i cant
remember my name.
III
i do the scene
the other night i
go to my bar feeling really blue and lonely and damned
rowdy. Sit down
at the bar, (where all the toughs sit) and order a pitcher
of beer. I drink
the whole thing and and notice this
asshole sitting next
to me (attitude
counts in these places of worship). So he's sitting there
smoking
cigarettes and flicking the ashes like he was shoveling dirt,
kicking the bar
when he wanted another beer, slamming his glass on the bar
every time he
took a sip. all of a sudden (halfway through my second beer
pitcher) a dylan
song (off blonde on blonde) comes on the jukebox and this
dude starts
singing it- and i say to myself, 'this dont mix" - so i give
him some of my
garlic bread and ask him, "HOW in
fuck do YOU know bob
dylan??
well, turns out
his father used to play bad guitar for johnny cash but
turned into an
alcoholic and cash dropped him..
i thought he was
full of shit so i asked him over to blow some dope, he
says ok and we
stagger out of the bar into his car. i couldnt find the dorm
for half an hour
(mind you i walked there in 5 min).
finally we get to
my room, dead drunk and stoned out of our minds, i ask
him if he wants
to see my guitar, he says ok, but said he couldn't play
because he was
left handed. I upped the ante, "well, pard, you're in luck.
so am i." i
gave him the guitar.
..and he
entertained me for 3 hours, waking up the entire floor with our
singing and
footstomping. the dude was fantastic. i couldnt believe it.
then he was gone.
end of story.
ps please write
back because my tonsils are swelling again and i think i'm
going to die.
(air mail?)
lefty
IV
THE DRAFT
again, somewhere
sometime in late 60s
sweet marie:
i have to report
for my draft physical in late oct, early nov. my number's
up, pal. unless,
of course i flunk the physical, and believe me i am
working on it.
have on board speed, limitless blotter, and other brain toys
to keep me sleep
deprived and hinky. also have stopped eating , going for a
50 pound drop
asap: hey if dick gregory can fast, so can i and i bet i'll
have more fun.
ok enough of
that.
listen.
there are
alternate plans in case i turn out to be staggeringly healthy.
alternate step
one of master plan B:
(master plan A was to lose my leg and
three fingers. master plan A
alternate was to
have the draft board members each lose a leg and 3
fingers. ok so
i'm not that goulish a guy, which brings me to plan B: go to
canada. i dont
have nearly the neccessary quantities of longjohns, so i
skipped
immediately to
scrounging round
my brain for alternate plan B.
you'll know it as soon as i do,
but dont be surprised if i show up at
yr bedroom floor
etc et al
lefty
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:10:29 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Re: wanted - spiritual mentor
>To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
>wanted,
spiritual mentor
>
>inspired by
kerouac, burroughs, nietzsche, gaarder, wilde,
>huxley,
voltaire & dickens i need guidance crossing the road.
>
>more a lust
for wisdom than a plea for help, gurus need
>not apply.
>
>joe
>newcastleunitedkingdom
Joe,
Quick. Look.
Left.
James M.
Hope that helps.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:07:59 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs in _Time_
Don't know if
anyone has pointed this out yet, since I cannot seem to
keep up with the
volume of correspondence on this service: last week's
_Time_ (2 June
1997) has a photo of Burroughs in the People section
(p. 90). The
segment is titled "The Four Off Ramps of the Apocalypse,"
and the article
reads as follows: "If U2 has it right, life as we know
it will end in
the greatest traffic snarl in history. The Irish rockers
almost caused it
last week, when they made a video for the ARmageddon-
theme song _Last
Night on Earth_ from their new CD _Pop_. Motorists in
Kansas City, Mo.,
got a glimpse of hell: highways were closed, city streets
were blocked, and
police corralled hundreds of fans. In the video, author
WILLIAM
BURROUGHS, 84, whose nihilistic novels have influenced U2 front
man BONO,
embodies a malign force that brings down civilization. Symbolizing
the band's dim
view of a rampant consumer culture (but they will happily
sell you a CD!),
frail Burroughs pushes a shopping cart out of the dead
city. The band
hopes to shoot two more videos during its Pop-Mart tour
in the U.S., says
manager Paul McGuinness. Commuters, beware! The end is
nigh."
Michael Skau
6/4/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:20:30 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Floyd Salas
June 4, 1997
To all the Good
and Friendly (and Dwindling) Folk on the Beat-L:
My heart gets sad thinking about Jan
Kerouac being dead one year
already,
tomorrow.
But I'd like to share some glad tidings
with you too.
I've been asked to present the the
First Annual PEN West Literary
Censorship Award
on Saturday night, June 7, at the Pro Arts Gallery in
Oakland, 6PM, to
Floyd Salas. (Other PEN WEST Josephine
Miles literary
awards will be
presented that night too--it's five bucks at the door,
Ishmael Reed will
be on hand, and well worth the price for those in or near
the Bay Area.)
I want to recommend to all of you, that
you check out the works of
Floyd Salas, an
amazing man and writer. Started off as a
street kid, a
tough guy, on the
streets of Oakland, one brother a gangster, the other a
lonely gay pharmacist
who committed suicide. Hispanic
background, in fact a
descendant of
Coronado, I believe.
Salas became a semi-pro boxer, won
countless matches, but decided he
really wanted to
be a writer. Wrote a book about
homosexual rape on a
California prison
farm (he'd been in jail himself) called TATTOO THE WICKED
CROSS. Nobody wanted to touch it till Nelson Agren
recommended it to his
agent Candida
Donadio. Donadio sold it, and it got
rave reviews when it
came out around
1960--and Floyd won a succession of awards.
But he kept writing down and dirty
stuff, he was part of the big
student strike at
San Francisco State in 68 (which he wrote about in a novel
called LAY MY
BODY ON THE LINE). It got knocked hard
by the critics for
attacking the
U.S. govt. and the way the govt. used all kinds of dirty
tactics in those
days--surveillance and provocateurs, etc.--to kill dissent.
His followup
novel, STATE OF EMERGENCY, didn't get published for almost 20
years--and
finally came out last year from Arte Publico.
In the meantime Salas has published
poems, a great novel about the
drug dealers of
the Haight Ashbury called WHAT NOW MY LOVE? and an even
greater
nonfiction autobiography called BUFFALO NICKEL.
Check this man out. 65 years old, coached boxing at Cal up till a
year ago, looks
at most 50 (body in great shape, mind still amazing).
Honored to be a friend of his.
Let Salas be a lesson to you. This list is just getting its second
wind.
-- Gerry
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:12:23 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: wanted - spiritual mentor
James,
Lots of tourists get killed by looking
left before they realize that
in the UK cars
are coming from the right!! Good advice in priciple though....
Anybody better qualified than me going
to offer Joe some non-guru
guidance?
I'd hate to have to offer him Kalil
Gibran as the solution to the
meaning of
life! ...and that was after ridding
myself of an unhealthy
interest in
Aleister Crowly!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:12:25 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Tom Waits' meaning?
Malcolm,
Do you know if those are some of his
song lyrics? ...or written for
the book? Don't
recognize the lyrics, although I can recognize him.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:12:27 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Neophyte
Ricky,
For a place to find recordings and make
orders, there are tons of
places that can
help on the web oncluding WaterRow Books and
WWW.kerouac.com;
Mercury has an interesting site for their "mouth almighty"
spoken word
records label. They put out the recent release of ginsberg's
titled
"Ballad of the Skeletons" - recommended, despite being three versions
of one song and
one other song...but great songs/poems.
If you're a fan of Philip Glass,
"Hydogen Jukebox" with libretto and
some spoken word
passages by Allen is excellent. The Kronos Quartet have an
interesting
recording called "Howl, U.S.A." with a recording of an
accompanied Howl
and Footnote to Howl. It also has Harry Partch's "Barstow:
eight hitchhikers'
inscriptions from a highway railing at Barstow,
California"
and pieces by Michael Daugherty and Scott Johnson.
For straight ahead poetry, "Howls,
Raps, and Roars ahs one of four
CDs given over to
Ginsberg, and "Holy Soul, Jelly Roll" is all Ginsberg
[don't have it
and haven't listened to it].
The Beat
Generation put out by Rhino has some Ginsberg as well as lots of
other cool - and
occasionally cheesy, but interesting - stuff.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:33:56 +0100
Reply-To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Burroughs in _Time_
In-Reply-To: <199706042208.RAA21607@cwis.unomaha.edu>
On Wed, 4 Jun
1997, Michael Skau wrote:
> Don't know
if anyone has pointed this out yet, since I cannot seem to
> keep up with
the volume of correspondence on this service: last week's
> _Time_ (2
June 1997) has a photo of Burroughs in the People section
> (p. 90). The
segment is titled "The Four Off Ramps of the Apocalypse,"
> and the
article reads as follows: "If U2 has it right, life as we know
> it will end
in the greatest traffic snarl in history. The Irish rockers
> almost
caused it last week, when they made a video for the ARmageddon-
> theme song
_Last Night on Earth_ from their new CD _Pop_. Motorists in
> Kansas City,
Mo., got a glimpse of hell: highways were closed, city streets
> were
blocked, and police corralled hundreds of fans. In the video, author
> WILLIAM
BURROUGHS, 84, whose nihilistic novels have influenced U2 front
> man BONO,
embodies a malign force that brings down civilization. Symbolizing
> the band's
dim view of a rampant consumer culture (but they will happily
> sell you a
CD!), frail Burroughs pushes a shopping cart out of the dead
> city. The
band hopes to shoot two more videos during its Pop-Mart tour
> in the U.S.,
says manager Paul McGuinness. Commuters, beware! The end is
> nigh."
> Michael Skau
> 6/4/97
Oh, for Christ's
sake....
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:38:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: wanted - spiritual mentor
Comments: To:
Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> James,
>
> Lots of tourists get killed by looking
left before they realize that
> in the UK
cars are coming from the right!! Good advice in priciple though....
just don't look
period. (and a nice glossy of Nancy
Reagan)
>
> Anybody better qualified than me going
to offer Joe some non-guru
> guidance?
>
> I'd hate to have to offer him Kalil
Gibran as the solution to the
> meaning of
life!
that one brought
a laugh. i distinctly remember stealing
his book
Madman cuz i'd
never seen it and couldn't afford it. i
use to call that
"liberating"
books.
i'll take a guru
with a shopping cart and one eye on the apocalypse and
the other down
the sinkhole.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:16:44 -0400
Reply-To: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Subject: Re: FYI: Lowell CELEBRATES Kerouac!
In-Reply-To: <19970424.145043.10646.0.madhatter20@juno.com>
On Wed, 23 Apr
1997, Richard D Raymond wrote:
> Read about your kerouac- fest and am
interested. send info to: ricky
> raymond- 44
fortescue rd. newport, nj 08345. thanks
>
woah, i must've missed this... what's the
story on this?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 21:58:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Robert Peters & The XXX Hoover
In a message
dated 97-06-04 06:52:11 EDT, you write:
<< The
Hunting Of The Snark is an unrecog-
nized classic in the field. Jesus, it's good! I'm
taking my time with
it so as not to miss anything. >>
Richard:
I got my copy
when I got back. It should be read by anyone who continues with
poetry. I have attempted to forward your post to Bob.
I hope it works, he's
still fumbling
with his computer. Give him a jolt if you want.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 21:59:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
In a message
dated 97-06-04 07:00:22 EDT, you write:
<< Caught
me tonight as one of the most thoughfull
ones I have read in my time on this list.
>>
Yeah me too. I
read it twice now thwee times!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:02:35 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Withdrawal from Beat-l
David:
Hooked in your
mailbox with your flag up.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:11:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
In a message
dated 97-06-04 08:10:55 EDT, you write:
<< Kansas I
absolutely loved. First of all it's an
insanely good poem.
(Where can I find it in normal lines for my
old fashioned brain). The
speed was perfect I thought. For awhile I had in going in perfect synch
with Luther Allison rocking out and it was one
of those perfect things.
The poem was just rockin.
I still wish there was a way to tweak Cornix
so that you could get
rhythm into a line, or give some words more
time. Or hook words
together so that phrases flash sometimes not
just single words. Also I
was noticing that differing word lengths were
hard for me. My eye must
be slow or I was too close to my monitor. I'll spend some more times
with these.
>>
James:
And thanks for
that little comparison I had to delete for Rod Anstee would be
on my ass again
for self-promotion. Thanks for to others I will respond to
about Cornix. My
computer lays the words dead on the screen. The only chance
I had to see my
poems in action was at Patricia's in Lawrence and we had
conversations
over them. I did sense that some work well and others do not.
There is a
wonderfully detailed post about line breaks and rhythym that I
might repost. It
fascinates me. Also I work in a learning center part time
with students who
have all sorts of trouble with language access and I'm
developing some
ideas about its application in a digital environment rather
than the old
linguistic mind chunk analog environment.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:02:43 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
In a message
dated 97-06-04 10:30:17 EDT, you write:
<< I love
this. The words come pouring out in a stream that I think works
very
well with any "stream of consciousness"
or "first thought/best thought" or
"spoken idiom" style of writing.
Looking at "Committee" again makes
me think this computerized technique has
merit and is worth further study, but I have
some problems with the Cornix
applet in general.
>>
Michael:
Thanks for your
wonderful analysis of CORNIX and your feedback. As I've
mentioned before
I have been a writing teacher for many years and have used
the mind chunk
"analog" that has been accepted, but I am running into what I
call a "digital"
generation that is visually word fixated and use a rapidly
changing private
vocabularies. As a teacher my expected inferential and
"gist"
references seem to be loosing out. Of course it can be that I am
getting crazier
and more incoherent too.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:16:49 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: last revision of experiment
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> Talking to
myself
> fragments
and scraps from years past
>
> I
>
> i'm busy
talking to myself,
> sweet marie,
> i'll write a
letter
> when
something happens
> right now
i'm busy talking to myself
i
>
> there doth
seem to be some truth
refuse
> in the
babbling of the mad
>
> TRUDGE to
>
> i still dont
know too many people have
> as i
cant remember my own name
>
> in the local
bar i sit down on a bar stool to
> (where all
the toughs sit)
>
> i order a
pitcher of beer. work
> i drink the
whole thing.
>
> have to
report for draft physical for
> late
oct/early nov
> no way out
unless i flunk the physical
a
>
> i'm not
going to eat.
living
> if dick
gregory can do it
> so can
i
*this*
>
> write me
because my tonsils are swelling again is
> and i think
i'm going to die (make it airmail)
>
> my
> manifesto!
>
steal it
>
if
>
>
you
>
> there doth
be some truth
> in the
babbling of the mad need
>
> i truely
hope i will be recognized as such.
direction
<parts II,
III, IV, snipped for easier reply through cyberspace>
Hi Marie. I'm very intrigued by this experiment. I don't know exactly
where to jump in,
but while the multiple forms of what you are creating
parallel one
another they affect the reader in tremendously different
ways: Part 1,
poetry; Part II, prose and semi-poetry; parts III and IV as
more storytelling
prose. The Talking to myself part one
evokes much more
emotion and a
sense of leaving you hanging there thinking, which really
works. There's sort of an irony there that is
missing in the prose. I
would be tempted
to expand the poetry of part one with more detail from
the environment
created in the prose. Also, because the
experiences are
based on
correspondence from someone else during one period of time, you
are in fact
processing his thoughts and emotions at that time before
feeding it out to
us again, reflecting his experience off of your own
experience and
into ours. You not telling a story but
retelling a story
(time, place,
feeling, whatever). I think that
something is lost in the
retelling that is
not lost in the poetry. What do you
think of doing the
"I do the
scene" as total stream of consciousness from his mind, putting
you directly in
that place and time instead of describing it?
Does any
of this make any
sense?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:58:41 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: travels
One of the
interesting things about beat literature is that so many of
the players are
still playing and their influence net is so productive.
I was sad when
the coming and goings of people related to the beat
literature net
work was called not apporpriate to the list.
I love
hearing that ken
k was traveling and putting himself out there.
I like recycling,
i read the books i have gotten something out of more
than once. I love
putting things in a variety of contexts,
the next
cycle is so often
deeper or richer. When i met edie k, i
gained at
least a broader
picture of jk as a man, from her stories and from her
persona.
I also met her
not just as jk's exwife but someone who obviously was a
peice of the
fabric. I am interested in the odd
little details, like
what did they
eat,
how did people
meet. I remember hearing a story about
jk and wsb being
in chicago at the
d convention and they eating lunch together. I
caredwondered
what they ate and what they drank.
i appreciatted
meeting Charles and Billy plymell, I got a little
overwhelmed and
was abrupt with my exit, my friends teased me that not
everyone was
comfortable with my 10 second exits. but i have been
reading plymell
this week, he left this great site bookmarked on my
puter , my
daughter has been showing her friends the compelling single
word stories. Her
fascination with language grows. we are
very lucky
that those that
play have graced this list, it is a list of writers and
readers. I am not
scholarly but appreciate the scholars. most of this is
selfish, I love
the power of the word, the rythms the visions. back to
lurking.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 03:03:09 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Unsubscribe me from the Dylan list
Hey:
In order to be
different and revealing the desperation to do so, I have
unsubscribed to
the Dylan mail list because I like this one better. I
am about to do
the same with the Celtic list.
Interesting.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:23:13 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: spirits for Antoine
pulled that old
'liberated' Gibran off the shelf.
Here's a clip i
always laughed a lot at:
[Soundtrack:
'Silent Night Holy Knight - by Lou Reed]
THE GOOD GOD
& THE EVIL GOD
The Good God and
the Evil God met on
the mountain top.
The Good God
said, "Good day, to you,
brother."
The Evil God made
no answer.
And the Good God
said, "You are in a
bad humour
today."
"Yes,"
said the Evil God, "for of late I
have been often
mistaken for you, called
by your name, and
treated as if I were you,
and it
ill-pleases me."
And the Good God
said. "But I too have
been mistaken for
you and called by your
name."
The Evil God
walked away cursing the
stupidity of
man......
____________________
on the subject of
spiritual advise
which you'd
answered yesterday
to someone who'd
wanted
non-guru-ic
advice of such character,
i was thinking
the first
requirement would
be to
determine
what your soul is
worth
if it is worth
more or less
than 2 cents,
probably ought to
jump back
down the drain
and come
back in a new
life with the
morning shower.
Then if it is
worth
precisely 2 cents
it is far too
easily
bought or sold.
All this is just
a note
passing on to the
original
questioner
of sorts
wondering why one
looks
outside for
spirit
when spirit is
inside
and my spirit is
not your spirit
and so my advice
could at best be
disguised
guruism.
listen to a
cricket
speak for two
hours
a day
until you
understand
the melody
while eating an
apple
a day
and keep those
spiritual
advisors at bay
!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 05:55:57 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-04 08:10:55 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
Kansas I absolutely loved. First of all
it's an insanely good poem.
> (Where can I find it in normal lines for my
old fashioned brain). The
> speed was perfect I thought. For awhile I had in going in perfect synch
> with Luther Allison rocking out and it was
one of those perfect things.
> The poem was just rockin.
>
> I still wish there was a way to tweak Cornix
so that you could get
> rhythm into a line, or give some words more
time. Or hook words
> together so that phrases flash sometimes not
just single words. Also I
> was noticing that differing word lengths were
hard for me. My eye must
> be slow or I was too close to my
monitor. I'll spend some more times
> with these.
> >>
>
> James:
> And thanks
for that little comparison I had to delete for Rod Anstee would be
> on my ass
again for self-promotion. Thanks for to others I will respond to
> about
Cornix. My computer lays the words dead on the screen. The only chance
> I had to see
my poems in action was at Patricia's in Lawrence and we had
>
conversations over them. I did sense that some work well and others do not.
> There is a
wonderfully detailed post about line breaks and rhythym that I
> might
repost. It fascinates me. Also I work in a learning center part time
> with
students who have all sorts of trouble with language access and I'm
> developing
some ideas about its application in a digital environment rather
> than the old
linguistic mind chunk analog environment.
> Charles
Plymell
it seems that
'tweaking' can take place by altering the font size of the
text to create
rhythm. i noticed certain words POP OUT
or not more or
less so depending
on their font-size. Now currently, those
would be
somewhat at
random because the sizes are somewhat associated with how
one would expect
them to be written to be read on the printed page.
With
experimentation, it seems that Bolding, in quotes, underlined, and
huge font (sounds
like something from Alice's Restaraunt) guarantees
emphasis. Now, i have next to no talent and creating
anything akin to a
bop in my
writing. mine is the style of the racey
bee whose lots its
bop. but i think that one could play with this
textual device to
provide rhythmic
hints in the digitalized form. Does that
make sense to
anybody else????
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:16:09 -0400
Reply-To: Jay S Gertz
<jgertz@BULLDOG.UNCA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jay S Gertz
<jgertz@BULLDOG.UNCA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Neophyte
Comments: To:
Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<199706042112.RAA00393@biggs.microtec.net>
What about Holy
Soul Jellyroll, poems and songs 1949-1993? Rhino WordBeat.
4 cd's.
(Ginsberg). Also Jack Kerouac, 3 cd's also on Rhino WordBeat.
Kleb
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:11:40 EDT
Reply-To: mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: lowell keroauc festival
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc
P.O. Box 1111,
Lowell, MA 01853
10th ANNUAL
FESTIVAL CELEBRATES JACK KEROUAC'S VISION OF LOWELL
In case anyone
missed it, here's the post on Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!
again.
Mark Hemenway
*****
FOR IMMEDIATE
RELEASE PRESS CONTACT:
MAY 27, 1997 Mark Hemenway:
Day:
508-475-9090 ext 1239
Evening:
508-458-1721
PUBLIC
INQUIRIES:
1-800-443-3332
508-458-1721
(Lowell, MA) The
10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will take
place 2- 5
October in Lowell, MA. This year's theme will be Kerouac
Celebrates
Lowell. We will celebrate and explore the real and the mythic
Lowell.,
Massachusetts that Kerouac brought to life in his writing.
The people and
places of Lowell are central to Kerouac's work. Five of his
novels describe
his childhood and youth in the city, and images and
references to his
hometown appear in virtually every one of his works. His
descriptions of
Lowell are remarkable for their beauty, power and
timelessness.
Through them, millions of readers have come to know Lowell
as a universal
hometown. Join us as we walk the wrinkly tar sidewalks and
redbrick alleys
that Jack Kerouac wrote about in his novels and poetry.
Full Press
Release Attached
begin 666
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(+BX-"@T*#0IS
`
end
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:14:23 EDT
Reply-To: mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: Lit Prize Repost
Here's a rerun of
the guidlelines for the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize...
******
9th ANNUAL JACK
KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE- Guidelines
Experienced and
emerging writers are invited to submit written works in
competition for
the 9th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. This Prize
will consist of a
$500 honorarium and an invitation to present the prize
winning
manuscript at a public reading during the 10th Annual Lowell
Celebrates
Kerouac! Festival in Lowell, MA from 2 through 5 October 1997.
SUBMISSIONS MUST
MEET THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA:
1. All works must be in English and not
previously published.
2. Submissions will be accepted between 1
March 1997 and 1 August
1997. Entries
postmarked after 1 August 1997 will not be accepted. The
deadline for all
entries is 1 August 1997.
3. The author's name must not appear
anywhere on the manuscript.
4. Submissions must be accompanied by a 3x5
index card containing the
author's name,
address, telephone number and manuscript title.
5. Authors retain all rights and privileges
to their work including
full copyright
protection, but manuscripts will not be returned.
6. An entry fee of $5.00 must accompany each
submission. Please make
checks payable
to: LOWELL CELEBRATES KEROUAC!
8. Submissions must meet the following
format requirements:
FICTION:
a. Submit one, typed, double-spaced
copy of your manuscript;
b. Your entry
must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a novel; or
a maximum of
three (3) short stories with a combined length of thirty
pages or less.
POETRY:
a. Submit one typed copy of your
manuscript;
b. Your entry
must not exceed eight (8) poems with a combined length of 15
pages or less. No
entry may exceed fifteen (15) pages.
NON-FICTION:
a. Submit one typed, double-spaced copy
of your manuscript;
b. Your entry
must not exceed thirty (30) pages excerpted from a volume,
or a maximum of
three (3) essays with a combined length of thirty (30)
pages or less.
9. Submit all
manuscripts to:
The Jack Kerouac
Literary Prize
P.O. Box 8788
Lowell, MA 01853-8788
10. Authors will
receive notification of the prize winner in September
1997.
The Jack Kerouac
Literary Prize is sponsored by Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc (a
non-profit organization), The Estate of Jack and Stella
Kerouac, and
Middlesex Community College.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:12:13 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: travels
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> Hi
(edited)Patricia,
>
> First off, I'm very envious of you
having been able to spend time
> with Charles
Plymell, not to mention EdieK and Burroughs and others - and
> for exactly
the reasons you describe; the chance to hear about what they
> ate, were
they listening to jive or doo-wop or Leadbelly or Lightenin'
> Hopkins or
wh? ...all that stuff!. So, green with envy
>
> Secondly, what did you mean when you
referred to the single word
> stories that
your daughter was interested in?
>
> Thirdly, the exchanges between your
daughter Lena (am I right?) and
> Charles and
his son were charming to read. Was Ben somehow tied into that as
> well? or was
that a serendipitous start? Ben was the 10 year old trapped on
> the Beat
list.
>
> Regards, Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
dear antoine
I had mentioned to lena that a 10 year old kid
was trapped in the beat
list and wanted
out,(she is 11) she was interested and i encouraged her
to write.
We have duel
puter set up side by side, she is on trekie lists and knick
lists. She had a great time with the plymell visit,
she has a great
time a lot.
The site with the
single word at a time is
http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
click on the
kansas poem , it is a unique site. our house is hitting it
often, every one
here laughed when they read charly's remark about
conversation
going on when he saw it here, i am a motor mouth.
Lena has visited
williams house a couple of times and thinks of it as a
wonderful cat
haven with real interesting art. Alas most of my writing
friends houses
are very boring for her in comparison. She notices art
more than me, (
and i love his art, have since i first saw it) she
remembers details.
i posted this to
the beat list, i hope this is the correct procedure.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:17:28 EDT
Reply-To: mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: open Kerouac/Beat Photo Exhibition
Open Photography
Exhibition.
Photographers of
all ages, experience and media are invited to participate
in an open
exhibition of photographic images inspired by Jack Kerouac or
the Beats during
the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival. The
exhibition is
sponsored by the Whistler House Museum of Art and Lowell
Celebrate
Kerouac! For guidelines, send a SASE
to Beat Exhibition, 243
Worthen St, Lowell,
MA 01852.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:02:10 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Spring '53
Regarding the
spring of 1953....
Comparing THE
YAGE LETTERS by Burroughs with Ginsberg I notice that the
dating of the
correspondence doesn't jive with THE SELECTED LETTERS OF
WILLIAM S.
BURROUGHS. Nor does the narrative flow. It appears that Bill
and Allen took
considerable liberty when editing TYL to achieve a
specific effect,
which they certainly did. Comparison of the two groups
of letters has me
considering the conscious myth-making tendency of the
Beats (with which
I have no problem, and, in fact, dig a lot) contrasted
to THE FACTS.
John Hasbrouck
Chicago
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:28:43 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: Neophyte
Comments: To: Jay
S Gertz <jgertz@BULLDOG.UNCA.EDU>
Jay S Gertz
wrote:
> What about
Holy Soul Jellyroll, poems and songs 1949-1993? Rhino
> WordBeat.
> 4 cd's.
(Ginsberg). Also Jack Kerouac, 3 cd's also on Rhino WordBeat.
> Kleb
What about Ken Nordine (sp?)?
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:26:56 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Spring '53
Comments: To:
JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@tezcat.com>
In-Reply-To: <3396808F.3C04@tezcat.com>
On Thu, 5 Jun
1997, JWHasbrouck wrote:
> It appears
that Bill and Allen took considerable liberty when editing TYL
> to achieve a
specific effect, which they certainly did. Comparison of the
> two groups
of letters has me considering the conscious myth-making
> tendency of
the Beats (with which I have no problem, and, in fact, dig a
> lot)
contrasted to THE FACTS.
Yeah the world
didn't discover the Beats by accident. Loved reading the
findings from
your experiment, and want to hear more.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:00:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: travels
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> One of the
interesting things about beat literature is that so many of
> the players
are still playing and their influence net is so productive.
> I was sad
when the coming and goings of people related to the beat
> literature
net work was called not apporpriate to the list. I love
> hearing that
ken k was traveling and putting himself out there.
> I like
recycling, i read the books i have gotten something out of more
> than once. I
love putting things in a variety of
contexts, the next
> cycle is so
often deeper or richer. When i met edie
k, i gained at
> least a
broader picture of jk as a man, from her stories and from her
> persona.
> I also met
her not just as jk's exwife but someone who obviously was a
> peice of the
fabric. I am interested in the odd
little details, like
> what did
they eat,
> how did
people meet. I remember hearing a story
about jk and wsb being
> in chicago
at the d convention and they eating lunch together. I
>
caredwondered what they ate and what they drank.
> i
appreciatted meeting Charles and Billy plymell, I got a little
> overwhelmed
and was abrupt with my exit, my friends teased me that not
> everyone was
comfortable with my 10 second exits. but i have been
> reading
plymell this week, he left this great site bookmarked on my
> puter , my
daughter has been showing her friends the compelling single
> word
stories. Her fascination with language grows.
we are very lucky
> that those
that play have graced this list, it is a list of writers and
> readers. I
am not scholarly but appreciate the scholars. most of this is
> selfish, I
love the power of the word, the rythms the visions. back to
> lurking.
> p
Excellently
expressed. I think that the comings and
goings of people are
important too,
the details of people's lives are woven in the fabric of
their words, so
to speak, creating the bigger picture.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:23:02 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: travels
Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Patricia
Elliott wrote:
> >
> > One of
the interesting things about beat literature is that so many of
> > the
players are still playing and their influence net is so productive.
> > I was
sad when the coming and goings of people related to the beat
> >
literature net work was called not apporpriate to the list. I love
> > hearing
that ken k was traveling and putting himself out there.
> > I like
recycling, i read the books i have gotten something out of more
> > than
once. I love putting things in a variety
of contexts, the next
> > cycle
is so often deeper or richer. When i met
edie k, i gained at
> > least a
broader picture of jk as a man, from her stories and from her
> >
persona.
> > I also
met her not just as jk's exwife but someone who obviously was a
> > peice
of the fabric. I am interested in the
odd little details, like
> > what
did they eat,
> > how did
people meet. I remember hearing a story
about jk and wsb being
> > in
chicago at the d convention and they eating lunch together. I
> >
caredwondered what they ate and what they drank.
> > i
appreciatted meeting Charles and Billy plymell, I got a little
> >
overwhelmed and was abrupt with my exit, my friends teased me that not
> >
everyone was comfortable with my 10 second exits. but i have been
> > reading
plymell this week, he left this great site bookmarked on my
> > puter ,
my daughter has been showing her friends the compelling single
> > word
stories. Her fascination with language grows.
we are very lucky
> > that
those that play have graced this list, it is a list of writers and
> >
readers. I am not scholarly but appreciate the scholars. most of this is
> >
selfish, I love the power of the word, the rythms the visions. back to
> >
lurking.
> > p
>
> Excellently
expressed. I think that the comings and
goings of people are
> important
too, the details of people's lives are woven in the fabric of
> their words,
so to speak, creating the bigger picture.
and the details
of import are different to different folks that follow
or are part of
the story. for example, my mother's
details would be
"what we
ate" if she gave a detailed description of the meals along as
we traveled
somewhere. i would be nearly oblivious
to the "what we ate"
except to say
"food" but would be interested in what i heard and
overheard and saw
around the places we ate. the details
are different.
depending on our
varied interests. one's not better than
the other -
the amount of
difficulty in carefully articulating the details from one
perspective or
another is very hard work. the choice of
the details
probably has a
lot to say about the persona of the author.
i'm a sound and
vision person. taste and smell are not
really in my
vocabulary. i'm rambling.
i had a point.
oh well, the
devil is in the details.
i was wondering,
since the big estate game is over does that mean i'm
retired as
devil???
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:34:32 -0400
Reply-To: DIXCIN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OFCS
On 6/4 Olly Ruff
wrote:
Oh for Christ's sake
Ditto,
Dixon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:38:56 -0600
Reply-To: Denis Alcock
<dalcock@FALSTAFF.UNM.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Denis Alcock
<dalcock@FALSTAFF.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Six Gallery
In-Reply-To: <3396D9D6.7AB6@midusa.net>
Hi everyone!
I will be
vacationing in San Francisco this weekend, and I would like to
check out some
cool Beat haunts. I've already visited
City Lights and
Vesuvio.
I was wondering
about the location of the Six Gallery reading.
Has anyone
visited the
spot? Comments and suggestions welcome.
Also, can anyone
suggest a good USED bookstore in SF, particularly Beat
literature.
Thanks,
Denis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:44:27 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Neophyte (Bid him whip)
In-Reply-To: <3396CD1B.BE9A50A@scsn.net> from
"R. Bentz Kirby" at Jun 5,
97 10:28:43 am
>
> Jay S Gertz
wrote:
>
> > What
about Holy Soul Jellyroll, poems and songs 1949-1993? Rhino
> >
WordBeat.
> > 4 cd's.
(Ginsberg). Also Jack Kerouac, 3 cd's also on Rhino WordBeat.
> > Kleb
>
> What about Ken Nordine (sp?)?
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
Thanks for
reminding me that it's been too long since I've pulled Ken
Nordine from the
CD rack. Try his CD, *Upper Limbo*,
especially the
cuts "Point
of Time," "Kingdom of Noxt," and his reading of "The
Emporer
of Ice
Cream."
"Who do you
mean? Who can I call? The roller of big cigars, of course.
He's the big
guy. The muscular one. The one in the kitchen, who's
itching to do
what he wants to do with his big, unlit cigar . . ."
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:02:38 -0700
Reply-To: e.lytle@ced.utah.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle
<e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Organization:
Sarcos Inc.
Subject: Re: Neophyte
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> What about Ken Nordine (sp?)?
>
I was wondering when someone would
bring up Ken Nordine. WHAT A GREAT
VOICE. If you haven't heard him, you must.
I have several of his
recordings, Best of Word Jazz, Colors,
and Devout Catalyst. All of
these are
recommended, but I would start with Word
Jazz.
Does anyone know if his show is still
on NPR? I live in Utah, so
diversity ain't a
high priority on the airwaves. I've only
heard his
NPR Word Jazz
show once, sometime around 1990. The
word jazz concept
had developed
into a wonderfully spatial experience,
with whispers and
fragments of
prose bouncing around within the limits of my stereo
system.
I also understand he did a few shows
with the Dead. Was anyone on the
list at those
shows. I can just imagine how Ken
sounded, booming
through their
sound system, with Mickey in the back
providing the deep
carpet of
sound. I think it was New Year's in
Oakland, early 90's.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:12:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: travels
RACE --- wrote:
>
> and the
details of import are different to different folks that follow
> or are part
of the story. for example, my mother's
details would be
> "what
we ate" if she gave a detailed description of the meals along as
> we traveled
somewhere. i would be nearly oblivious
to the "what we ate"
> except to
say "food" but would be interested in what i heard and
> overheard
and saw around the places we ate. the
details are different.
> depending on
our varied interests. one's not better
than the other -
> the amount
of difficulty in carefully articulating the details from one
> perspective
or another is very hard work. the choice
of the details
> probably has
a lot to say about the persona of the author.
>
> i'm a sound
and vision person. taste and smell are
not really in my
>
vocabulary. i'm rambling. i had a point.
>You're right,
the details are very different depending on who the writer
is, and Beat
writers could characterize something like eating lunch in
totally different
ways. Speaking of sound, I have been
reading an older
book(1974), Allen
Ginsberg Verbatim, Lectures on Poetry, Politics,
Consciousness,
edited by Gordon Hall. It's written from
tapes (I think)
of lectures that
Allen did on college campuses across the country.
There's some very
interesting parts on sound in writing, especially about
Kerouac, and
comparisons about him and Thomas Wolfe and how he took that
and went beyond
it.
AG: "Most
prose writers aren't even aware that the sentence they write
has a sound, are
not even concerned with sound in prose.
In fact I'm not
sure what some of
them are concerned with. Most prose
writers that I
grew up with in
college were influenced a lot by Hemingway, so one of
their main
concerns was economy in economy in writing down little
insights and
perceptions as to how white the dawn was or how cold the icy
water was, with
the maybe haiku-like image out of it...Kerouac was the
first writer I
ever met who heard his own writing, who listened to his
own sentences as
if they were musical, rhymical constructions, and who
could follow the
sequence of sentences that make up the paragraph as if
he were listening
to a little jazz riff...Kerouac got to be a great poet
on that
basis..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:28:42 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: travels
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33971D95.30A1@together.net>
On Thu, 5 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Speaking of
sound, I have been reading an older book(1974), Allen Ginsberg
> Verbatim,
Lectures on Poetry, Politics, Consciousness, edited by Gordon
> Hall. It's written from tapes (I think) of lectures
that Allen did on
> college
campuses across the country.
A comment on this
book. Out of all his written works, this had one of the
most profound
effects on me & my life. I thought of this book sometime after
he died and how
there'd be no more lectures like this. I'm sure that most of
his lectures and
talks were recorded (anyone know?) and I would hope that
they're being
transcribed (anyone know?) and also digitized (anyone know?)
and that another
book -- or books, I could read them all -- of them will
someday come out
(anyone?).
m
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:49:57 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Spring '53
JWHasbrouck
wrote:
>
> Regarding
the spring of 1953....
>
> Comparing
THE YAGE LETTERS by Burroughs with Ginsberg I notice that the
> dating of
the correspondence doesn't jive with THE SELECTED LETTERS OF
> WILLIAM S.
BURROUGHS. Nor does the narrative flow. It appears that Bill
> and Allen
took considerable liberty when editing TYL to achieve a
> specific
effect, which they certainly did. Comparison of the two groups
> of letters
has me considering the conscious myth-making tendency of the
> Beats (with
which I have no problem, and, in fact, dig a lot) contrasted
> to THE
FACTS.
>
> John
Hasbrouck
> Chicago
John,
There is
definitly a good theme for some scholar here.
A study of the
way Allen
especially worked hard at creating the image of a literary
school modelled
on what he could see in earlier examples, lost
Generation and
Parisian artist groups in particular.
Ginsberg always
had an
exceptional marketing talent and what you are putting your finger
on here is a
perfect example.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:03:42 -0800
Reply-To: clight@TELIS.ORG
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Ambrose
<clight@TELIS.ORG>
Subject: <no subject>
please take me
off the list
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:14:14 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: travels
Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > and the
details of import are different to different folks that follow
> > or are
part of the story. for example, my
mother's details would be
> >
"what we ate" if she gave a detailed description of the meals along
as
> > we
traveled somewhere. i would be nearly
oblivious to the "what we ate"
> > except
to say "food" but would be interested in what i heard and
> >
overheard and saw around the places we ate.
the details are different.
> >
depending on our varied interests. one's
not better than the other -
> > the
amount of difficulty in carefully articulating the details from one
> >
perspective or another is very hard work.
the choice of the details
> > probably
has a lot to say about the persona of the author.
> >
> > i'm a
sound and vision person. taste and smell
are not really in my
> >
vocabulary. i'm rambling. i had a point.
> >You're
right, the details are very different depending on who the writer
> is, and Beat
writers could characterize something like eating lunch in
> totally
different ways. Speaking of sound, I
have been reading an older
> book(1974),
Allen Ginsberg Verbatim, Lectures on Poetry, Politics,
>
Consciousness, edited by Gordon Hall.
It's written from tapes (I think)
> of lectures
that Allen did on college campuses across the country.
> There's some
very interesting parts on sound in writing, especially about
> Kerouac, and
comparisons about him and Thomas Wolfe and how he took that
> and went
beyond it.
>
> AG:
"Most prose writers aren't even aware that the sentence they write
> has a sound,
are not even concerned with sound in prose.
In fact I'm not
> sure what
some of them are concerned with. Most
prose writers that I
> grew up with
in college were influenced a lot by Hemingway, so one of
> their main
concerns was economy in economy in writing down little
> insights and
perceptions as to how white the dawn was or how cold the icy
> water was,
with the maybe haiku-like image out of it...Kerouac was the
> first writer
I ever met who heard his own writing, who listened to his
> own
sentences as if they were musical, rhymical constructions, and who
> could follow
the sequence of sentences that make up the paragraph as if
> he were
listening to a little jazz riff...Kerouac got to be a great poet
> on that
basis..."
> DC
it sounds like he
sub-vocalized while typing/writing things.
they teach
you not to do
that when you're reading and sometimes i think that's
nuts. you don't get to hear the words that
way. i guess it slows you
down though.
i think
sub-vocalized spontaneous typing is a good way to make the
writing sound
like it's being talked. the readers who
follow the rules
and don't let
themselves listen to the words while they read will miss
it. but someone who subvocalizes reading Keroauc
gets to Hear him talk
like he's in the
room.
i used to do a
trick when i was not a good reader back in college. i'd
type a page or
two of the author so that i figured out how the writing
came out - until
i could hear the squirrels running around creating the
words - and then
i'd go back and read and i could read faster with
better
comprehension.
so i forgot what
i was writing about. a really nice young
woman came by
to help me get my
printer running and she just left and my mind is more
on wishing she
was still here than on what i was typing so i couldn't
keep it together.
oh another
thing. i'm going to be in the Kansas
City area this weekend
probably Saturday
and Sunday and if anybody knows any used bookstores
around there that
are worth finding (it is finding cuz i don't know the
town that well)
please backchannel me about it.
bye
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:28:33 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Kerouac's sound
Of course, I
can't prove anything but I doubt Kerouac sub-vocalized when
he wrote. It would have slowed him down to much. He typed much of his
writing a
break-neck speed. Nevertheless, sound IS
an important part of
his prose style
and I'm sure he was keenly aware of sound as he wrote.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:54:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's sound
At 03:28 PM
6/5/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Of course, I
can't prove anything but I doubt Kerouac sub-vocalized when
>he
wrote. It would have slowed him down to
much. He typed much of his
>writing a
break-neck speed. Nevertheless, sound IS
an important part of
>his prose
style and I'm sure he was keenly aware of sound as he wrote.
>
>
Yes. I would think he vocalized things in his
head. He vocalized and
musicalized (if
there is such a word) his prose I would think.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:39:21 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: TEST
TEST
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:56:36 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: JK: Spring '53
First, I'd like to thank John Hasbrouck
for his wonderfully
thought-provoking
entry. I'm a fairly new list member and
the idea of
your reading
project intrigues me. Is there a future
book in the works,
perhaps a
critical analysis based on your reading.
Your entrys suggest
the possibility
for SEVERAL books.
Secondly, your admission to
disillusionment really hit home with
me. I am NOW a naive undergrad whose life has
been heavily influenced by
reading OTR in
May of last year. (I've read all the
beat lit. I could get
my hands on
since, and plan to start on scholarly works next.)
Finally, I'd like to put in my two
cents regarding JK's use of the
term
"Spontaneous" Prose. I think
that he was referring not so much of
spur of the
moment composition, as to inovation wrought from past writing
"practice,"
if you will. I took a Romantic
Literature course this past
semester and ran
across a Wordsworth piece that I thought applies to
Kerouac's
literature technique. In
"Introduction to the Lyrical Ballads,"
Wordsworth
asserts that poetry composition should be "spontaneous" (yes,
he uses that
specific term). However, he qualifies it
by declaring that
the spontaneity
stems from previous thought on a general subject, which
may then be
applied to a specific topic.
You are much more qualified to judge on
this matter than I. In
your opinion is
JK's use of the term like Wordsworth's use?
Many thanks for
your contribution,
Jenn Thompson
ft.wayne, indiana
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:01:02 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's sound
Comments: To:
gallaher@hsc.usc.edu
In a message
dated 97-06-05 17:15:06 EDT, gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU (Timothy K.
Gallaher) writes:
<<
Yes. I would think he vocalized things
in his head. He vocalized and
musicalized (if there is such a word) his
prose I would think.
>>
I think that
Kerouac thought about the things for years before he wrote them
down in the final
form, and he also had letters and journal entries which
also served as
first drafts for many of the ideas that would end up in his
books. So I think
he was vocalizing the stories for years in his head before
he would put it
down in a torrent of continuous writing that he called
'spontaneous'.
writing without
revision, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 15:15:06 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: travels
RACE --- wrote:
>
> it sounds
like he sub-vocalized while typing/writing things. they teach
> you not to
do that when you're reading and sometimes i think that's
> nuts. you don't get to hear the words that
way. i guess it slows you
> down though.
>
> i think
sub-vocalized spontaneous typing is a good way to make the
> writing
sound like it's being talked. the
readers who follow the rules
> and don't
let themselves listen to the words while they read will miss
> it. but someone who subvocalizes reading Keroauc
gets to Hear him talk
> like he's in
the room.
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
It is a pity
anyone tries to teach you not to subvocalize.
May be fine
for just
digesting facts. But with literature
you've got to hear the
line. You're absolutely correct that you have to
hear Kerouac while
reading.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:17:04 -0700
Reply-To: James Hudson <jamie@MOLEC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Hudson <jamie@MOLEC.COM>
Subject: UNSUSCRIBE BEATL
UNSUSCRIBE BEATL
UNSUSCRIBE BEATL
UNSUSCRIBE BEATL
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James (Jamie) Hudson, Ph.D.
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Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:28:30 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: T-shirt update....
I want to thank
all those Beat-L members who have honored their committment
to purchase the
official Beat-L shirts that have been reserved..I've received
word now from
about 50 folks out of approx. 200
reservations....
If you're one of the
150 missing people, please try to make your $18.00
payment as soon
as possible. The shirts will be ready to ship in about 2-3
weeks.
Thanks -
Jeffrey Weinberg
Beat-L T-shirt
Development Corp.
c/o Water Row
Books
PO Box 438
Sudbury MA 01776
Tel 508-485-8515
Fax 508-229-0885
email
waterrow@aol.com
Check out the
Beat-L T-shirt at
http://www.waterrowbooks.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:07:20 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
In a message
dated 97-06-05 09:41:01 EDT, you write:
<<
it seems that 'tweaking' can take place by
altering the font size of the
text to create rhythm. i noticed certain words POP OUT or not more
or
less so depending on their font-size. Now currently, those would be
somewhat at random because the sizes are
somewhat associated with how
one would expect them to be written to be read
on the printed page. >>
David:
Thanks for the
insights. The next thing is to write with the word font in
mind. I sensed
that some poems "work" (to use that old Jackson Pollock
invention) and
some probably don't in the word flash. I wuz just thinking
last night of all
the beats I knew, though their styles varied, they were
always almost
obsessed with the word, even in light conversation. Any
intonation,
conotation, etomology,etc. This, while their writing styles
varied wildely.
Charles Plymell.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:38:20 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CORNIX instead of COMIX
In a message
dated 97-06-05 09:54:40 EDT, you write:
<< I want
to spend more time with the Kansas City poem. You didn't answer
about whether it is available in print. Like to read it and then go
back again.
>>
James:
I found two
copies of my Scarecrow edition of Forever Wider. One is slightly
tattered it was
my reading copy. Since I have no readings lined up, I'll send
you that copy. I
have pulled some of poems from that edition into my new
manuscript
Robbing the Pillars for which I'm looking for a publisher who can
keep it in print.
I think you should compare it from the page rather than
online. Buchenroth has put most of the poems online,
but I'd like to send
you the book
anyway. I'll try to remind myself to put the book in the mail
tomorrow.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:18:21 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: travels
In a message
dated 97-06-05 21:24:05 EDT, you write:
<< the
chance to hear about what they ate >>
Antione/Paricia;
It was quite
alright to converse over the poem flash. That's one aspect I
like about the
application, one can tune in or out. I have been to so many
serious poetry
readings where every head bowed in unison when poet spoke.
Usually, for me,
dreadfully boring. About the music and eats with the beats.
Almost 35 yeras
ago, I put on Shubert's sonnatas (i'll have to look it
up-still in old
lp jackect with Branaman's paint stains) Alllen stooped the
conversation to
document the piece. He was into classical and Bessie Smith
type music. I
never recall music at Burrough's dinners. But I do have a good
story about
dinner one time in Kansas when Billy was about Lena's age. James
had fixed steaks.
A real fine dinner. This was when Bill drank a lot of
Vodka, so I
supposed eating was an annoyance that others urged on him just as
the afternoon
cocktails kicked in. He picked around slightly at a marvelously
prepared dinner,
just like an impudent kid. After the rest of us had eaten
and Bill had
faked a few bites, James brought in a big bowl of gum drops.
Bill swooped up a
handful and squashed his mouth full. This was a delight for
any kid to see
and things like this keep the kid in Bill going. It was
completely out of
character for an otherwise mannerly dinner at an esteemed
host's
house! The other thing he has in common
with kids is that he can't
sit still, and he
has to have stimulating conversation, which I can't always
provide. I hope
these little anecdotes have not been on the list before and
is list stuff.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:20:19 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: travels
Michael Stutz
wrote:
> .
>
> A comment on
this book. Out of all his written works, this had one of the
> most
profound effects on me & my life. I thought of this book sometime after
> he died and
how there'd be no more lectures like this. I'm sure that most of
> his lectures
and talks were recorded (anyone know?) and I would hope that
> they're
being transcribed (anyone know?) and also digitized (anyone know?)
> and that
another book -- or books, I could read them all -- of them will
> someday come
out (anyone?).
>
> m
I understand what
you mean about Allen Verbatim. Although
I have had the
book for many
years, I am only now truely reading it for the first time.
The lectures on
words and consciousness and on twentieth century poetry
are
remarkable. I noticed in the epilogue,
which was written in 1973,
the editor says
that "a major prose presentation of the development of
Allen's thought
over a long period, 'Essays, Interviews, and Manifestos,
1955-Present,' is
under preparation and will appear in a couple of
years." That
would have been the mid-seventies. I
check out the Ginsberg
bibliography at
the Literary Kicks site, but it wasn't mentioned. Does
anyone know if it
ever was published?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:17:59 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Edie K
I wonder if Edie
K autobiography ever came out?
I am typing in
some paragraphs from a booklet she put out during the
river city
reunion.
This is
copyrighted material
" Following
the abortion of our child,1 Jack Kerouac and I decided to
get our own
apartment. We would drop out of school
and work, so that
Jack could keep
writing. We started looking immediately
with a friend
of mine, a
Barnard student who was married to an infantry soldier. her
name was Joan
Vollmer Adams. We found th right place
at 420 West 119th.
Street,apartment
#28, in the New Year of 1942, just after the attack of
Pearl Harbor.
Joan's husband, Paul Adams, was a
Columbia law strdent, serving in the
Army. She got his allotment checks, plus a good
healthy allowance for
attendance at
Barnard. I also received an allowance
from my family in
Detroit, and I
would be attending Columbia in the spring as a special
student,to study
painting with George Grosz. We used
Joan's name, as a
respectable
married lady , to apply for the lease.
We were all going home for Easter, and
coming back for summer school,
so it was just as
well we didn't have to plunk down the money until
spring. The war was bulging Columbia with 90 day
wonders in the naval
officer program,
and good apartments were not easy to come by.
Joan, Jack, and I went back to our
separate parts of the U.S., most of
us by train. I got the Empire State at 7:00 a.m. out of
Grand Central
Station, standing
all the way home, since, as the war went on, there
were no reserved
seats. I arrived in Detroit about 10:30
p.m. the same
night. The train cost about $23.00: the cab ride
home to Grosse Pointe
from the Michigan
Central Station was $3.00! I lived downstairs, in a
two family flat
in Gross pointe Park, with my mother and younger sister,
both named
Charlotta Frances (Jack called my sister Francis in the The
Town and the
city,). my mother owned and operated
Ground Gripper shoes,
in downtown
Detroit, working six days per week, eight hours per day. my
sister was in
high school and had her special gang, as I did mine.
People in Grosse
Pointe were not lacking anything in those days except
enough things to
spend money on!"
to be continued
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 21:47:37 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Ken Nordine
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
Never fails to
amuse me how so many people send unsubscribe messages to the
list itself.
Someone even sent one to me only today.
Anyway,
Yeah, I was
thinking about Ken Nordine recently too and wondered why he
hadn't come up on
the list yet. He also does a great bookending job for the
Hal Wilner CD
Stay Awake, which has contemporary artists covering old
Disney standards.
He's also just done a radio commercial, for what product
I can't tell you,
which is pretty indicative of just how powerful his voice
is. You're
listening to the timbre, you're listening to the phrasing,
you're listening
to the tonal control. Oh, what product is it? Damn, have
to wait till it
comes on again. Sounds like it's a national commercial
though!
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:53:39 +0800
Reply-To: Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sharon Ngiam
<mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: the last time i committed suicide.
hi, in the 'last
time i committed suicide' (the one abt neal), who does
keanu reeves
portray?
it says in my
local mag that keanu plays the 'buddy he (neal) hangs out
with, drinking
beer, shooting pool." who's that?
thanks a lot.
btw, is it worth watching?
s.*
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:33:59 +1000
Reply-To: blah
<blacburn@MINYOS.ITS.RMIT.EDU.AU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: blah
<blacburn@MINYOS.ITS.RMIT.EDU.AU>
In-Reply-To: <199706060620.QAA19625@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Hi, I have
returned to the list after an absence. I was wondering where
you are at? Bye.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:46:35 -0400
Reply-To: David Makar <dmakar@CCS.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Makar <dmakar@CCS.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Time to go for a while
I am going on a
short vacation from all the world around, sadly including
the community of
beat-L. I will miss the action and return sometime in the
future.
-Dave
<dmakar@ccs.neu.edu>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:12:11 GMT
Reply-To: i12bent@sprog.auc.dk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "B. Sorensen"
<i12bent@SPROG.AUC.DK>
Subject: Ginsberg
On Wed, 4 Jun
1997 10:45:10 -0500,
Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU> wrote:
> There is a piece by Paul Berman called
"Allen Ginsberg's Secret"
>published in
the latest issue of the on-line magazine SLATE.
Go to
>http://www.slate.com/
and look in the section called "Back of the Book."
And in case
anyone can't access Slate, here is the little anecdote attached
to the story
proper. Re-printed w/o perm.
http://www.slate.com/Concept/97-06-04/anecdote.asp
A Last Anecdote
By Paul Berman
The last time I
saw Ginsberg was in Paris at the Hotel de ville--City
Hall--in March
1996. The mayor of Paris was going to award medals of
achievement to
Ginsberg and a number of other American cultural figures.
Ginsberg saw me
in the audience and came over to chat. We admired
the paintings on
the columns and ceiling--huge golden portraits of
fleshy nudes,
pornographic paintings (from a puritanical, American point of
view), impossible
to imagine in any American government building.
The mayor's
assistant went to the microphone and began the ceremony. But
though Ginsberg
and I were standing at the front of the crowd, directly in
front of the
mike, Ginsberg kept up his commentary and chatter in full
voice, quite as
if the mayor's assistant hadn't begun to speak. After
a while I warned
Ginsberg that, at any moment, the mayor's assistant was
going to call him
up to receive his medal, and perhaps he ought to prepare
himself.
But Ginsberg
talked on in full voice and waved his hands animatedly, and
when the mayor's
assistant did call him up, he simply walked to the mike to
receive the
medal, turned to face the crowd and, instead of making a few
courteous
remarks, pulled a pocket camera out of his jacket and carefully,
slowly
photographed the crowd. An odd way to accept a prize. But his
behavior matched
his whim. He was entirely himself. No one was ever more
natural. There
were never any secrets with Allen Ginsberg--none that bore
on his inner
personality, anyway.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:42:13 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.
Comments: To:
Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
In-Reply-To:
<199706060553.NAA12472@simon.pacific.net.sg>
On Fri, 6 Jun
1997, Sharon Ngiam wrote:
> hi, in the
'last time i committed suicide' (the one abt neal), who does
> keanu reeves
portray?
> it says in
my local mag that keanu plays the 'buddy he (neal) hangs out
> with,
drinking beer, shooting pool." who's that?
In the book,
"Portable Beat Reader," edited by Ann Charters (an
anthology), in
the Neal Cassady section, a letter titled the "Cherry
Mary" letter
describes the answer to your question. In fact, that entire
movie seems
mostly based on that long letter Neal Wrote to Jack Kerouac.
That letter also
gets mentioned in "On the Road."
I do not recall
reading that letter in "Grace Meets Karma."
I believe this
answers the question, or at least provides a source. If it
doesn't or others
can add to it, please correct me and/or add to it...
Thanks...
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:20:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: diane/all interested in my poetic
flounderings
In-Reply-To: <970601113822_-1999383635@emout16.mail.aol.com>
for diane, and
anyone else interested in my word writhings from version to
version
(diane suggested
to use more of poetic form vs prose. some spacing is off
from transition
from clarisworks to this mailer.
happy fried day
to all!
Talking to myself
fragments and
scraps from years past
I
i'm busy talking
to myself,
sweet marie,
i'll write a
letter
when something
happens
right now i'm
busy talking to myself
i
there doth seem
to be some truth
refuse
in the babbling
of the mad
TRUDGE
to
i still dont know
too many people
have
as i cant remember my own name
in the local bar
i sit down on a bar stool
to
(where all the
toughs sit)
i order a pitcher
of beer.
work
i drink the whole
thing.
have to report
for draft physical
for
late oct/early
nov
no way out unless
i flunk the physical a
i'm not going to
eat.
living
if dick gregory
can do it
so can i
*this*
write me because
my tonsils are swelling again is
and i think i'm
going to die (make it airmail)
my
manifesto!
steal it
if
you
there doth be
some truth
in the babbling
of the mad
need
i truely hope i
will be recognized as such.
direction
I I
out on highway 61
hey sweet marie,
got yr postcard.
typical.
i'll write a
letter when something happens.
right now i'm
busy talking to myself.
i'm sitting here
at the bar, enscribing this
to you
on the head of a pin
and finding
within
my infinite
self
that there doth be
some truth
in the babbling
of the mad
shortly
afterwards,
i find my finite self,
sitting here
driving home from
the ladies banquet ,
thinking of a
revenge
suitable
for all
occasions.
later, i thumb a
ride in the rain.
truck with fully
stocked
gun rack stops,
and
guy leans over
and says howdy,
right friendly
like,
so i take a
chance (with my long hair and all),
get in, and ask,
"so what's
to be seen or done in the area, eh?"
welp, he replied,
"i still
don't know too many people
as i cant
remember my own name"
i get out as soon
as inhumanly
possible.
before i write
any more,
sweet marie
i beg you
write me as my
soul dwindles away..
(also, please do
not lose my letters
as you most
likely be able to cash in
on them when i
write my memoirs).
III
i do the scene
the other night i
go to usual bar blue and lonely
gloomy, grab
barstool
(where all the
toughs sit)
drink.
next to me is
asshole
smoking
cigarettes
flicking the ashes like
he was shoveling dirt,
crowding me,
kicking the bar
for refills
slamming his
glass after every sip.
juke box playing
postively fourth street
this dude starts singing it
- and i say to
myself, 'this dont mix" -
so i give him some of my garlic
bread.
he tells me he
was illegitimate kid of alcoholic musician
whose claim to
fame being fired by johnny cash
we stagger out of
the bar into his car. then
dead drunk and
stoned out of our minds,
nevertheless we
arrive, (where?)
guitairs and
harps in hands, we
played and
sangour way to dawn
then he was gone.
end of story.
ps please write
back because my tonsils are swelling again and i think i'm
going to die.
(air mail?)
lefty
IV
THE DRAFT
sweet marie:
i have to report
for my draft physical.
my number's up,
pal. unless,
of course i flunk
the physical:
i'm sleep deprived and hinky.
also have stopped
eating.
but this may not
work,
so listen up.
there are
alternate plans
we need an
alternate step
one of master plan B:
(master plan A
was to lose my leg and three
fingers.
master plan A alternate
was to
have the draft board members
lose a leg and 3
fingers.
which brings me to plan
B:
Canada.
i'm low on
longjohns,
and too damned paranoid
hence you are
needed , sweet marie:
scrounging
round my brain
for alternate
plan B.
you'll know it as soon as i do,
but dont be surprised if i show up on
yr bedroom floor
etc et al
lefty
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:47:50 EDT
Reply-To: mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Hemenway
<mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>
Subject: Lowell
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc
P.O. Box 1111,
Lowell, MA 01853
10th ANNUAL
FESTIVAL CELEBRATES JACK KEROUAC'S VISION OF LOWELL
In case anyone
missed it, here's the post on Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!
again.
Mark Hemenway
*****
Bill tells me I
needed to convert the attachment to ASCII. Here it is.
FOR IMMEDIATE
RELEASE PRESS CONTACT:
MAY 27, 1997 Mark Hemenway:
Day:
508-475-9090 ext 1239
Evening: 508-458-1721
PUBLIC
INQUIRIES:
1-800-443-3332
508-458-1721
(Lowell, MA) The
10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will take
place 2- 5
October in Lowell, MA. This year's theme will be Kerouac
Celebrates
Lowell. We will celebrate and explore the real and the mythic
Lowell.,
Massachusetts that Kerouac brought to life in his writing.
The people and
places of Lowell are central to Kerouac's work. Five of his
novels describe
his childhood and youth in the city, and images and
references to his
hometown appear in virtually every one of his works. His
descriptions of
Lowell are remarkable for their beauty, power and
timelessness.
Through them, millions of readers have come to know Lowell
as a universal
hometown. Join us as we walk the wrinkly tar sidewalks and
redbrick alleys
that Jack Kerouac wrote about in his novels and poetry.
Full Press
Release Attached
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc
P.O. Box 1111,
Lowell, MA 01853
10th ANNUAL
FESTIVAL CELEBRATES JACK KEROUAC'S VISION
OF LOWELL
FOR IMMEDIATE
RELEASE PRESS CONTACT:
MAY 27, 1997 Mark
Hemenway:
Day: 508-475-9090 ext 1239
Evening: 508-458-1721
PUBLIC INQUIRIES:
1-800-443-3332
508-458-1721
(Lowell, MA) The
10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival
will take place
2- 5 October in Lowell, MA. This year's theme will be Kerouac
Celebrates
Lowell. We will celebrate and explore the real and the mythic
Lowell.,
Massachusetts
that Kerouac brought to life in his writing.
The people and
places of Lowell are central to Kerouac's work. Five of his
novels
describe his
childhood and youth in the city, and images and references to his
hometown appear
in virtually every one of his works. His descriptions of Lowell
are remarkable
for their beauty, power and timelessness. Through them, millions
of
readers have come
to know Lowell as a universal hometown. Join us as we walk
the wrinkly tar
sidewalks and redbrick alleys that Jack Kerouac wrote about in
his
novels and
poetry.
Background:
Before he died at
age 46, Jack Kerouac published 24 books chronicling the
lives and
adventures of the post war generation in America. The raw energy and
beauty of his
prose established a new standard in American literature. The ideas
and way of life
that he wrote about would set the stage for the "rucksack
revolution"
of the sixties. Jack Kerouac along with Allen Ginsberg, William S.
Burroughs, Neal
Cassady and others, founded the Beat movement in American
literature and
culture, a movement that challenged the rigid social structure of
postwar America
and eventually lead to the sweeping social changes of the
sixties.
Today, over fifty
years since the principals met in New York, Jack Kerouac's
work
is experiencing a
revival of interest, enthusiasm and serious scholarship, in
America, and
throughout the world
Jack Kerouac was
born, raised and remained a native of Lowell throughout his
life.
His novels are
autobiographical. 5 of his novels take
place in Lowell, and the
city
is mentioned in
virtually every one of his books. His love for the city is
illustrated
in the quotes
inscribed on the Kerouac Commemorative in Eastern Canal Park,
Bridge Street,
Lowell.
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc. is a non-profit corporation dedicated to the
celebration,
enjoyment and study of Jack Kerouac and his writings. Whenever
possible, events
are free, however, donations are gratefully accepted for
continued
support of the
annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.. To make a donation,
or to find out
more about Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., write: P.O. Box
1111,
Lowell, MA 01853.
For additional
information call the Merrimack Valley Convention and
Visitor's Bureau
at 1-800-443-3332, or Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc 508-458-
1721.
The 10th Annual
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival will include:
Feature
Performance. Legendary performers and poets like Patti Smith, Allen
Ginsberg, Ed
Sanders, Michael McClure, Ray Manzarek, David Amram. Gregory
Corso and Herbert
Huncke have appeared during the festival. This year's tribute
to
Allen Ginsberg
and Herbert Huncke will bring together many Beat Artists.
Memorial Mass for
Jack Kerouac- A memorial mass for Jack Kerouac will be
held at the St.
Louis Roman Catholic Church, the parish in which he spent his
earliest years.
Beat Literature
Conference- The University of Massachusetts-Lowell will
present an
academic conference on Jack Kerouac and the Beat writers on Friday,
October 3rd at
the University's South Campus. Leading scholars of beat culture
and literature
will present papers and ideas in symposia and panels throughout
the
day.
The Jack Kerouac
Literary Prize. Emerging and established writers are invited
to submit works
of fiction, non-fiction or poetry for the Jack Kerouac Literary
Prize. The winner
will receive a $500 honorarium and an invitation to present
the
winning
manuscript at the October Festival. The Prize is sponsored by Lowell
Celebrates Kerouac!,
Inc, The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, and Middlesex
Community
College. For guidelines, send a SASE to The Jack Kerouac Literary
Prize, P.O. Box
8788, Lowell, MA 01853.
Photo Exhibition.
The festival will feature exhibitions of
photographic works
by
Gordon Ball,
editor of Allen Ginsberg's journals.
Open Photography
Exhibition . Photographers of all ages, experience and media
are invited to
participate in an open exhibition of photographic images inspired
by
Jack Kerouac or
the Beats. The exhibition is sponsored by the Whistler House
Museum of Art.
For guidelines, send a SASE to
Beat Exhibition, 243 Worthen
St, Lowell,
MA 01852.
New Books. We will celebrate the publication of Some of
the Dharma, and the
40th Anniversary
Edition of On the Road, by Viking
Penguin, the Collected
Works of Herbert
Huncke, and a new history of Kerouac's
roots in Nashua New
Hampshire will be
featured at the festival.
Small Press Book
Fair- The small press book fair is an opportunity to sample
regional small
press publications, and pick-up Kerouac books- new and rare.
Poetry at The
Rainbow Cafe- Authors read their works in the Kerouacian
ambience of a
neighborhood tavern in "Little Canada." Everyone is welcome to
read their poetry
or prose, but time is limited, please reserve a spot ahead of
time.
The Kerouac
Commemorative- The Jack Kerouac Commemorative is located in
downtown Lowell
at the intersection of Bridge and French Streets, near the
former
site of his
father's print shop. Selected Kerouac passages, etched in eight red
granite pillars,
stand as a living monument to his art.
The symmetrical cross
and
diamond pattern
of The Commemorative is a meditation on
the complex Buddhist
and Roman
Catholic foundations of much of Jack's writing.
Walking Tours-
Walking tours of Kerouac sites in Lowell and Nashua, NH are
conducted
throughout the weekend. The tours change each year, but almost
always include:
Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto, the Watermelon Man Bridge, the
Merrimack River,
and many of the neighborhood sites Jack wrote about.
Bus Tours- Bus
tours of Lowell and Nashua, NH provide a more leisurely tour of
sites in these
two Kerouac cities. Jack Kerouac's mother and father met and the
family, including
Gerard are buried in Nashua.
Open Microphone
at the Coffee Mill- Sunday afternoons are reserved for an
open microphone
reading and performance at the Coffee Mill in downtown
Lowell. Everyone
is welcome to read their work. Sip expresso while waiting your
turn at the
microphone. .
Many other
activities are available during the weekend:
o Exhibits of first edition beat
publications and memorabilia.
o Jack Kerouac's rucksack and other
personal items are on display at the
Working People
Exhibit, Lowell National Historical Park.
o Edson Cemetery. Jack Kerouac is buried
in the Edson Cemetery just south of
Downtown Lowell.
The cemetery is open from sun-up to sun-down every day.
o Music and conversation- There will be
many opportunities throughout the
weekend to share
your festival experience and enthusiasm for Jack Kerouac
while enjoying a
beer at local taverns and nightspots.
For additional
information call the Merrimack Valley Convention and
Visitor's Bureau
at 1-800-443-3332, or Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc 508-458-
1721.
***END***
10th Annual
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Page
MORE...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:26:29 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: travels
>Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:12:05 -0700
>From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>>
>
>You're right,
the details are very different depending on who the writer
>is, and Beat
writers could characterize something like eating lunch in
>totally
different ways. Speaking of sound, I
have been reading an older
>book(1974),
Allen Ginsberg Verbatim, Lectures on Poetry, Politics,
>Consciousness,
edited by Gordon Hall. It's written from
tapes (I think)
>of lectures
that Allen did on college campuses across the country.
>There's some very
interesting parts on sound in writing, especially about
>Kerouac, and
comparisons about him and Thomas Wolfe and how he took that
>and went
beyond it.
Yes, excellent
book - I used this heavily in my undergrad work, probably the
most out of all the AG books. There's
some excellent
sections on AG-WC Williams also, I believe. I spoke to Prof.
Gordon Ball at the Lowell festival last year
and thanked him
for his work - unfortunately, he told me that the book was now
out of print. I don't know if anything's
happened since
then w/ the new marketability in beat lit to bring it back.
Mark Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:57:32 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Nordine, Jack et al...
Tony,
Can you tell me what label *Upper
Limbo* came out on and when? Have
"Devout
Catalyst" which is great, particularly the stuff with Tom Waits, and
have "Word
Jazz" and "Colors" and various individual cuts and radio
interviews.
The whole genre of spoken word,
wordjazz, vocalese, and scat as
represented by
Lord Buckley, Slim Gaillard, Ray Brown (with the great
"Mumbles"),
Nordine, King Pleasure and .... is a goldmine with roots closely
intertwined with
the Beats and Jazz, particularly BeBop.
Consider this a half-assed partial
reply to Bruce Hartman's earlier
post on Jazz and
Mark Nofer's interesting post.
Question for Mark. Do you remember very
much about the details of
Gillespie picking
up on Kerouac's name for the composition that he and
Charlie Christian
called "Kerouac"? It's a fascinating topic. Players did
occasionally name
songs after fans and Jack was around listening, watching
and doing the
occasional jazz review.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:12:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: i sent the wrong version (shoot me not
already dead)
for diane, and
anyone else interested in my word writhings from version to
version
(diane suggested
to use more of poetic form vs prose. some spacing is off
from transition
from clarisworks to this mailer.
happy fried day
to all!
Talking to myself
fragments and
scraps from years past
I
i'm busy talking
to myself,
sweet marie,
i'll write a
letter
when something
happens
right now i'm
busy talking to myself
i
there doth seem
to be some truth
refuse
in the babbling
of the mad
TRUDGE
to
i still dont know
too many people
have
as i cant remember my own name
in the local bar
i sit down on stool to
(where all the
toughs sit)
i order a pitcher
of beer.
work
i drink the whole
thing.
have to report
for draft physical
for
late oct/early
nov
no way out unless
i flunk the physical a
i'm not going to
eat.
living
if dick gregory
can do it
so can i
*this*
write me because
my tonsils are swelling again is
and i think i'm
going to die (make it airmail)
my
manifesto!
steal it
if
you
there doth be
some truth
in the babbling
of the mad
need
i truely hope i
will be recognized as such.
direction
I I
out on highway 61
hey sweet marie,
got yr postcard.
typical.
i'll write a
letter when something happens.
right now i'm
busy talking to myself.
i'm sitting here
at the bar, enscribbling this letter
to you
on
the head of a pin
and
finding
within my
infinite
self
that there doth be
some truth
in the babbling
of the mad
shortly
afterwards,
driving home from
the ladies banquet ,
thinking of a
revenge
suitable
for all
occasions.
before i write
any more,
sweet marie
i beg you
write me as my
soul dwindles away..
(also, please do
not lose my letters
as you most
likely be able to cash in
on them when i
write my memoirs).
III
i do the scene
the other night i
go to usual bar blue and lonely
gloomy, grab
barstool
(where all the
toughs sit)
I drink.
next to me is
asshole
smoking
cigarettes
flicking the ashes like
he was shoveling dirt,
crowding me,
kicking the bar
for refills
slamming his
glass after every sip.
juke box playing
postively fourth street
this dude starts singing it
- and i say to
myself, 'this dont mix" -
so i give him some of my garlic
bread.
he tells me he
was illegitimate kid of alcoholic musician
whose claim to
fame being fired by johnny cash
we stagger out of
the bar into his car
guitairs and
harps in hands, we
played and sang
our way to dawn
then he was gone.
end of story.
ps please write
back because my tonsils
are swelling
again and i think i'm going to die.
(air mail?)
lefty
IV
THE DRAFT
sweet marie:
i have to report
for my draft physical.
my number's up,
pal. unless,
of course i flunk
the physical:
i'm sleep deprived and hinky.
also have stopped
eating.
but this may not
work,
so listen up.
there are
alternate plans
we need an
alternate to
master plan B:
(master plan A
was to lose my leg and three
fingers.
master plan A alternate
was to
have the draft board members
lose a leg and 3
fingers.
which brings me to plan
B:
Canada.
i'm low on
longjohns,
and too damned paranoid
hence you are
needed , sweet marie:
scrounge round my brain
for alternate
plan B.
you'll know it as soon as i do,
but dont be surprised if i show up on
yr bedroom floor
etc et al
lefty
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:04:18 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: travels
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33971006.2A6A@midusa.net>
On Thu, 2 Jun
1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Well, I
re-read Borroughs language-virus/electronic revolution thing
> today and
was thinking about it
> quite a bit.
It seems the virus particularly relates to a particular form
> of temporal
consciousness heightened by particular forms of
>
causal-calculative symbolic action. I'm not certain that I'm willing to
> jump into
the boat of this being physiological yet. It is a big
> difference
to say language is a virus and language functions like a
> virus. I
wonder how William Burroughs is able to jump outside the
> biological
constraints if the relationship is not to some degree
>
figurative?...
On The Web Site
for the 'Science and Sanity' Reading List
(To subscribe to
the 'Science and Sanity' Reading List
send a message
to:
listserv@newciv.org
with the BODY: subscribe ssread-l)
a message got
posted that deals specifically with your question:
Section C:
Relates to ilustrations from the 'mental' and nervous diseases.
Here he shows how
the 'mental' factors produce the same effects as those
caused by allergy
to certain stimulants. He mentions the production of an
attack of hay
fever even when exposed to roses made of paper. Simply the
belief that the
roses were genuine produced this anaphylactic reaction.
He expains how
Migraine manifests itself from a wide variety of stimuli
ranging from
physical, to chemical to endocrinal etc.
AK mentions also
about the
phenomenal variety of effects produced by the over/under
production of the
various hormones. In the various instances, the excess
or deficiency of
the hormones affect various tissues. To
sum up: The
NON-EL principle
formulates a structural character inherently found in the
structure of the
world, ourselves, our nervous system on all levels; the
knowledge and
application of which exists unconditionally necessary for
adjustment on all
levels, and, therefore, in humans, for SANITY.
STRUCTURALLY
every organism depends on its environment; and, therfore, in
building our
languages, we ought to coin non-el terms which treat the
organism-as-a-whole
without splitting it up. Lastly, AK
notes that we do
not habitualy
apply what we 'know'. The STRUCTURAL implications of
language work
UNCONSCIOUSLY. He stresses that we need to TRAIN oursleves
in THE USE of
non-el terms to expect maximum
semantic results.
This post hastily
summarizes AK's Chapter 10, Organisms-as-a-whole. AK
used that example
of the Rose alergy throughout the text. His
physiological
'semantic reaction' to paper roses he attributed to the
word 'rose'
rather than to actual physiological roses; thus a
physiological
reaction to a physiological word (thought occurs as a
chemical
physiological entity--or spoken words exist as air in motion in
specific
recognizable patterns--waves, etc.) Other semanticists compare
the placebo
affect as another example of AK's intended meaning in Chapter
10.
Burroughs' notion
that humans (and life forms in general most likely)
experience
physiological reactions to language; or that humans
physiologically
experience language; can not really get disputed! Of
course, we must
first agree on our usage of 'physiological,' and
'language.' But
using AK's stipulations, or more recently Dr. Hal C Becker
of Tulane Medical
College, propaganda hits us in the gut! Numerous
examples exist.
AK's decriptions in "Science & Sanity," Chap 10, perhaps
exist as the
first textual mention ever of this notion. I have not yet
encountered an
earlier mention.
The "Science
and Sanity" reading list also maintains an extremely
interesting web
page at:
http://www.newciv.org/ssread/
To summarize, I
must agree with Burroughs here David.
I have that site
linked to my CELM site's "Literary Links."
Thanks...
Michael L.
Buchenroth
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:23:36 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: The Mecca of Lawrence....
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Patricia
>
> Appreciate the
Edie Kerouac posts. Don't think I've
seen this before.
> Further
installments would be wonderful.
>
> James
Stauffer
I MADE IT
!!!!!!!!!
to Lawrence
only got lost
once.
Dark road with
keep out signs
near Riley
Kansas.
I thought sounds
like
a good direction
to go.
Scary roads
25 minutes later
i was where i'd
been
35 minutes before
i'd turned on the
road.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:44:08 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Burroughs & viruses
Michael L.
Buchenroth wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2
Jun 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
> > Well, I
re-read Borroughs language-virus/electronic revolution thing
> > today
and was thinking about it
> > quite a
bit. It seems the virus particularly relates to a particular form
> > of
temporal consciousness heightened by particular forms of
> >
causal-calculative symbolic action. I'm not certain that I'm willing to
> > jump
into the boat of this being physiological yet. It is a big
> >
difference to say language is a virus and language functions like a
> > virus.
I wonder how William Burroughs is able to jump outside the
> >
biological constraints if the relationship is not to some degree
> >
figurative?...
>
> On The Web
Site for the 'Science and Sanity' Reading List
> (To
subscribe to the 'Science and Sanity' Reading List
> send a
message to:
> listserv@newciv.org
> with the BODY: subscribe ssread-l)
>
> a message
got posted that deals specifically with your question:
>
> Section C:
Relates to ilustrations from the 'mental' and nervous diseases.
> Here he
shows how the 'mental' factors produce the same effects as those
> caused by
allergy to certain stimulants. He mentions the production of an
> attack of
hay fever even when exposed to roses made of paper. Simply the
> belief that
the roses were genuine produced this anaphylactic reaction.
> He expains
how Migraine manifests itself from a wide variety of stimuli
> ranging from
physical, to chemical to endocrinal etc.
AK mentions also
> about the
phenomenal variety of effects produced by the over/under
> production
of the various hormones. In the various instances, the excess
> or
deficiency of the hormones affect various tissues. To sum up:
The
> NON-EL
principle formulates a structural character inherently found in the
> structure of
the world, ourselves, our nervous system on all levels; the
> knowledge
and application of which exists unconditionally necessary for
> adjustment
on all levels, and, therefore, in humans, for SANITY.
> STRUCTURALLY
every organism depends on its environment; and, therfore, in
> building our
languages, we ought to coin non-el terms which treat the
>
organism-as-a-whole without splitting it up.
Lastly, AK notes that we do
> not
habitualy apply what we 'know'. The STRUCTURAL implications of
> language
work UNCONSCIOUSLY. He stresses that we need to TRAIN oursleves
> in THE USE
of non-el terms to expect maximum
> semantic
results.
>
> This post
hastily summarizes AK's Chapter 10, Organisms-as-a-whole. AK
> used that
example of the Rose alergy throughout the text. His
>
physiological 'semantic reaction' to paper roses he attributed to the
> word 'rose'
rather than to actual physiological roses; thus a
>
physiological reaction to a physiological word (thought occurs as a
> chemical
physiological entity--or spoken words exist as air in motion in
> specific
recognizable patterns--waves, etc.) Other semanticists compare
> the placebo
affect as another example of AK's intended meaning in Chapter
> 10.
>
> Burroughs'
notion that humans (and life forms in general most likely)
> experience
physiological reactions to language; or that humans
>
physiologically experience language; can not really get disputed! Of
> course, we
must first agree on our usage of 'physiological,' and
> 'language.'
But using AK's stipulations, or more recently Dr. Hal C Becker
> of Tulane
Medical College, propaganda hits us in the gut! Numerous
> examples
exist. AK's decriptions in "Science & Sanity," Chap 10, perhaps
> exist as the
first textual mention ever of this notion. I have not yet
> encountered
an earlier mention.
>
> The
"Science and Sanity" reading list also maintains an extremely
> interesting
web page at:
>
http://www.newciv.org/ssread/
>
> To
summarize, I must agree with Burroughs here David.
>
> I have that
site linked to my CELM site's "Literary Links."
> Thanks...
>
> Michael L.
Buchenroth
>
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
sitting drinking
coffee with patricia ... she's playing Tetrus very
well. we kicked the kids off the computers so we
could play.
from the
explanation you posted, it seems to make perfect sense to me as
well. i think my confusion is at the point of what
constitutes
physiological. i had the impression that it was being
described as
something which
involved significant evolutionary and genetic mutation
in the human
population over time. it seems that if
this view of
symbolism is too
embedded in evolution and genetics, it becomes a hurdle
that simply being
aware of the unconscious effects would not be
sufficient to
breakout of. at least, it would seem
that this process
would require
another cycle of evolutionary change in what we call
human.
i tend to think
that burroughs is probably correct that these symbolic
factors are
imbedded deeply in conscious and unconscious communicative
acts. the notion of "allergy" is an
excellent one. but the fact that
some gain an
awareness that explodes the "allergic" relationship, seems
to suggest that
it is possible for many more to explode it.
it is a fine line
here. something of a paradoxical
one. the amount of
biological
determinism involved in symbolic behavior cuts into the
ability of human
beings to get past this 'allergy'.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
in Lawrence
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:43:09 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nordine, Jack et al...
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97060609573189@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
from "Antoine Maloney" at
Jun 6, 97 09:57:32 am
Antoine--*Upper
Limbo* came out in 1993 on Grateful Dead Records
(catalog # GDCD40172).
I'm curious about
the availability of the others you mentioned ("Devout
Catalyst,"
etc.): are those on labels carried by
record stores or mail
order? The first time I heard "Word Jazz"
(the radio program) was on
NPR about 10
years ago. I was amazed--delightfully
dizzy, with both
speakers at
different ends of the room and the volume up high and
Nordine careening
all over. After the show, an 800-number
was
advertised, where
one could order "Word Jazz" tapes.
I called the
number and found
it was out of service. It turns out that
the "Word
Jazz" show I
heard was a rerun--including the 800-number--of a show
from a few years
before.
Malcolm--the only
commercials I'm aware Nordine did were for Levi's,
maybe in the
early- to mid-80s. Probably others I
don't know of,
however.
Tony
> Tony,
>
> Can you tell me what label *Upper
Limbo* came out on and when? Have
> "Devout
Catalyst" which is great, particularly the stuff with Tom Waits, and
> have
"Word Jazz" and "Colors" and various individual cuts and
radio
interviews.
>
> The whole genre of spoken word,
wordjazz, vocalese, and scat as
> represented
by Lord Buckley, Slim Gaillard, Ray Brown (with the great
>
"Mumbles"), Nordine, King Pleasure and .... is a goldmine with roots
closely
> intertwined
with the Beats and Jazz, particularly BeBop.
>
> Consider this a half-assed partial
reply to Bruce Hartman's earlier
> post on Jazz
and Mark Nofer's interesting post.
>
> Question for Mark. Do you remember
very much about the details of
> Gillespie
picking up on Kerouac's name for the composition that he and
> Charlie
Christian called "Kerouac"? It's a fascinating topic. Players did
> occasionally
name songs after fans and Jack was around listening, watching
> and doing
the occasional jazz review.
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:06:44 -0500
Reply-To: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nick Weir-Williams
<nweir-w@NWU.EDU>
Subject: List changes
As a two-year
veteran of the Beat list, and a manager of my own list, I have
to say that I
think the changing of the reply function on the list will have
a serious and
damaging effect on the list. I'm sorry to see it happen, I
must say.
However I also
have to sympathize with Bill and the list managers.
Admittedly under
great provocation, the list has seen threats of legal
action and being
reported to the FBI. Given what's in the archives at
certain times in
the list's history, I can see that many people wouldn't
appreciate that
at all. Whether it was intended or not, the threats of
action appeared
to be made against the whole list rather than just against
individuals, and
I can see why the list manager felt action was necessary.
Another list I am
on has two lawsuits in progress, and it has been decimated
as a result.
I did have
one-follow up question regarding the archives. I asked a few
weeks back about
the state of the archives. Are they being properly
maintained? In
proper humidity controlled and secure environment? We have
learnt from the
correspondence that (a) there is clearly a market for
Kerouac materials
that have disappeared from places and (b) that the
notebooks and
manauscripts are fragile. The 50's, after all, were not the
high point of
quality paper manufacture. Paul Maher said in a recent post
that everything
was being properly cared for, and I wonder if he or others
could elaborate
on that, please
Nick
**************************************************************************
*Nil Carborundum
Illegitimis*
It's better to
die on your feet than to live on your knees
Nick Weir-Williams
Director,
Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208
President,
Illinois Book Publishers Association
List Manager,
chipub listserv
ph: 847 491 8114
fax: 847 491 8150
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:52:27 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Edie, Kerouac-Parker
James, it seems
that I shouldn't post copyrighted stuff unless i have
the copyrighters
permission. The excerpt came from a
booklet
calle
To william S.
Burroughs
Essays &
Poems
Celebrating The
1987 river city reunion
By Frankie
"Edie" Keroac-Parker
I have an extra
un autographed book and could send it to you but want it
back. If you are interested. let me know.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:06:19 -0400
Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey s. Landau"
<JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>
Subject: UNsubscribe
It's time to go.
I found this list
via Levy Asher's web page at the time of news that Allen
Ginsburg was was
ill. This list is alive and full and I
thank you.
Jeff
JefLtsTalk@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:42:20 -0700
Reply-To: e.lytle@ced.utah.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle
<e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Organization:
Sarcos Inc.
Subject: Re: Nordine, Jack et al...
Tony Trigilio
wrote:
> I'm curious
about the availability of the others you mentioned ("Devout
>
Catalyst," etc.): are those on
labels carried by record stores or mail
> order?
Devout Catalyst
is also on Grateful Dead Records. It has
KN doing Word
Jazz backed by
Jerry Garcia. Word Jazz is on Rhino -
Word Beat. I've
forgotten what
label Colors is on, but it was released
in the last two
years. I was able to find all of these disks in the
local-owned CD
shops. The national chains , Blockbuster, may not carry them. I've
also found them
online by searching Ken Nordine.
The first time I
heard "Word Jazz" (the radio program) was on
> NPR about 10
years ago. I was amazed--delightfully
dizzy, with both
> speakers at
different ends of the room and the volume up high and
> Nordine
careening all over. After the show, an
800-number was
> advertised,
where one could order "Word Jazz" tapes. I called the
> number and
found it was out of service. It turns
out that the "Word
> Jazz"
show I heard was a rerun--including the 800-number--of a show
> from a few
years before.
>
Been there
> Malcolm--the
only commercials I'm aware Nordine did were for Levi's,
> maybe in the
early- to mid-80s. Probably others I
don't know of,
> however.
He has done
several national ads in the 90's. The
last one I remember
was Chevron, or some other gasoline co., where he was talking power
and
performance, cleaning your engine, etc. while big splashes of gas
washed over the
screen. Very satisfied cars and owners
drove around in
the
background. It made me want to hit the
Road.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:52:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses
Comments: To:
Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
In-Reply-To: <339821B2.5E52@sunflower.com>
On Fri, 6 Jun
1997, David Rhaesa wrote:
> sitting
drinking coffee with patricia ... she's playing Tetrus very
> well. we kicked the kids off the computers so we
could play.
> i had the
impression that it was being described as
> something
which involved significant evolutionary and genetic mutation
> in the human
population over time. it seems that if
this view of
> symbolism is
too embedded in evolution and genetics, it becomes a hurdle
> that simply
being aware of the unconscious effects would not be
> sufficient
to breakout of. at least, it would seem
that this process
> would
require another cycle of evolutionary change in what we call
> human.
David:
This
evolutionary/genetic mutation inclusion in 'physiological' does
change the
original notion, doesn't it? Indeed! I hadn't considered that.
> i tend to
think that burroughs is probably correct that these symbolic
> factors are
imbedded deeply in conscious and unconscious communicative
> acts. the notion of "allergy" is an
excellent one. but the fact that
> some gain an
awareness that explodes the "allergic" relationship, seems
> to suggest
that it is possible for many more to explode it.
Even though I had
not considered this broader point of view or more
inclusive
stipulation of 'physiological' in my post, I certainly agree
with you. Or that
our semantic reaction roots into us genetically, sure
opens a whole new
set of considerations! I can't help but think of Carl
Jung's Collective
here. If we consider that these ancient, unconscious
collective
associations happen physiologically in our brains or brain stems,
then Jung agrees
with you. I sure believe that Jung's Collective evolves.
I believe that
these reactions or associations we have,
or that the
relationship we have
between us (our
minds) to these archetypal symbols, motifs, whatever
happen or occur
physiologically! I cannot separate us to any degree from
the physical
world! Then, our physiologically
evolving Collective
Unconscious that
Jung described, and documented, supports what you write!
> it is a fine
line here. something of a paradoxical
one. the amount of
> biological
determinism involved in symbolic behavior cuts into the
> ability of
human beings to get past this 'allergy'.
I don't like this
notion of biological determinism though. To me, this
implies human
symbolic behavior had some finite beginning. I don't even
believe our human
symbolic behavior began with the Big Bang.
Or the Big Bang
prior to the most recent one. We just evolve. To David
Bohm, everything
just exists continually evolving (changing). To Bohm,
reality evolved
to point we experience currently, and will continue--and
language,
symbolic behavior, etc. with it. This seems much as a
metaphysical claim.
So much of Bohm borders in the metaphysical. He could
debate his
understanding. I do not have sufficient understanding to
debate what he
wrote. And I detest others attempting to suck me into
metaphysical
debates. I either believe or not. So I'll stop at that not
intending to
create such a metaphysical issue here...
Have you read the
Proust book Neal Cassady wrote of so often? I checked
that from the
library last winter and read the 1st half of it. It proved
a long winding
read! My point here, though, I believe Neal Cassady
thought deeply
about this very subject that you initiated or that
Burroughs
initiated. And I couldn't help compare Proust descriptions as a
young child of
questioning existence to Jung's childhood turmoil about God's
existence. Neal
Cassady seemed to toil with this same issue--
memorizing each
Pope in prison, etc. and going off into Edgar Casey, etc.
Somehow, it seems
connected...
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus' Electronic
Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:13:16 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: [Fwd: Mail System Error - Returned Mail]
This is a
multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------B35EDB8FBBD9D1C72B02EC38
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--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------B35EDB8FBBD9D1C72B02EC38
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From: Mail
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Reply-To: Mail
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Subject: Mail
System Error - Returned Mail
Date: Fri, 6 Jun
1997 11:27:40 -0400
Message-ID:
<19970606152740271.AAA101@mail.scsn.net>
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Please reply to
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with ESMTP id AAA179; Fri, 6 Jun 1997
11:27:38 -0400
Message-ID:
<33982E69.DE3C9EC@scsn.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Jun
1997 11:36:09 -0400
From:
bocelts@scsn.net (R. Bentz Kirby)
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
X-Mailer: Mozilla
4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:
Multiple@scsn.net, recipients@scsn.net, of@scsn.net,
list@scsn.net, BEAT-L@scsn.net
Subject: Re: Ken
Nordine
X-Priority: 3
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<01BC71FA.180E8A20@sea-ts3-p66.wolfenet.com>
Content-Type:
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Malcolm Lawrence
wrote:
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
-----------------------------------------
> Never fails
to amuse me how so many people send unsubscribe messages
> to the
> list itself.
Someone even sent one to me only today.
>
> Anyway,
>
> Yeah, I was
thinking about Ken Nordine recently too and wondered why
> he
> hadn't come
up on the list yet. He also does a great bookending job
> for the
> Hal Wilner
CD Stay Awake, which has contemporary artists covering old
> Disney
standards. He's also just done a radio commercial, for what
> product
> I can't tell
you, which is pretty indicative of just how powerful his
> voice
> is. You're
listening to the timbre, you're listening to the phrasing,
> you're
listening to the tonal control. Oh, what product is it? Damn,
> have
> to wait till
it comes on again. Sounds like it's a national commercial
>
> though!
>
> Malcs
Malcs:
Years ago,
Nordine took a bunch of his riffs and did Levis commercials.
One day a
stranger came to our town.
I always thought
that Vidiots was da bomb.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--===========================_
_= 6853027(101)--
--------------B35EDB8FBBD9D1C72B02EC38--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:43:08 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mail System Error - Returned
Mail]
i found this and
don't know where its been but forwarded it to general
list.
p
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
Mail System Error - Returned Mail
> Date: Fri, 6
Jun 1997 11:27:40 -0400
> From: Mail
Administrator<Postmaster@mail.scsn.net>
> To:
bocelts@scsn.net
>
> This Message
was undeliverable due to the following reason:
>
> The
following destination addresses were unknown (please check
> the
addresses and re-mail the message):
>
> SMTP
<Multiple@scsn.net>
> SMTP
<recipients@scsn.net>
> SMTP
<of@scsn.net>
> SMTP <list@scsn.net>
> SMTP
<BEAT-L@scsn.net>
>
> Please reply
to Postmaster@mail.scsn.net
> if you feel
this message to be in error.
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re:
Ken Nordine
> Date: Fri,
06 Jun 1997 11:36:09 -0400
> From:
bocelts@scsn.net (R. Bentz Kirby)
>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby
> To:
Multiple@scsn.net, recipients@scsn.net, of@scsn.net,
> list@scsn.net, BEAT-L@scsn.net
> References:
<01BC71FA.180E8A20@sea-ts3-p66.wolfenet.com>
>
> Malcolm
Lawrence wrote:
>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
-----------------------------------------
> > Never
fails to amuse me how so many people send unsubscribe messages
> > to the
> > list
itself. Someone even sent one to me only today.
> >
> > Anyway,
> >
> > Yeah, I
was thinking about Ken Nordine recently too and wondered why
> > he
> > hadn't
come up on the list yet. He also does a great bookending job
> > for the
> > Hal
Wilner CD Stay Awake, which has contemporary artists covering old
> > Disney
standards. He's also just done a radio commercial, for what
> > product
> > I can't
tell you, which is pretty indicative of just how powerful his
> > voice
> > is.
You're listening to the timbre, you're listening to the phrasing,
> > you're
listening to the tonal control. Oh, what product is it? Damn,
> > have
> > to wait
till it comes on again. Sounds like it's a national commercial
> >
> > though!
> >
> > Malcs
>
> Malcs:
>
> Years ago,
Nordine took a bunch of his riffs and did Levis commercials.
> One day a
stranger came to our town.
>
> I always
thought that Vidiots was da bomb.
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:44:12 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses
Comments: To:
Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
In-Reply-To: <339821B2.5E52@sunflower.com>
On Fri, 6 Jun
1997, David Rhaesa wrote:
> it is a fine
line here. something of a paradoxical
one. the amount of
> biological
determinism involved in symbolic behavior cuts into the
> ability of
human beings to get past this 'allergy'.
David:
I couldn't agree
with you more here even though 'determinism' has
uncomfortable
implications to me. Considering what you write here, it
almost seems
futile to even try to control our semantic reactions,
doesn't it? Your
biological determinism notion sure weakens AK's notion
that we can
create and use symbolic behavior to get past this
'allergy.'
Perhaps we cannot! Or the amount of control needed seems
almost shaman. We
would need to reach inside ourselves, walk slowly on fire,
slow our
heartbeat, and then go deeper still, to manipulate some genetic
code or
something. That sure well-represents your notion of a
paradox--genetically
altered, cloned beings who can walk into WalMart and
walk out empty
handed, unaffected by those damn "falling prices."
Propagandaless
existence! A Dolly who doesn't tread the time-worn path...
And who remembers
those rules white washed on the side of the barn!
A real Beat
sheep, perhaps..
Michael L.
Buchenroth mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:01:19 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Michael L.
Buchenroth wrote:
> David:
> This
evolutionary/genetic mutation inclusion in 'physiological' does
> change the
original notion, doesn't it? Indeed! I hadn't considered that.
>
> > i tend
to think that burroughs is probably correct that these symbolic
> > factors
are imbedded deeply in conscious and unconscious communicative
> >
acts. the notion of "allergy"
is an excellent one. but the fact that
> > some
gain an awareness that explodes the "allergic" relationship, seems
> > to
suggest that it is possible for many more to explode it.
>
> Even though
I had not considered this broader point of view or more
> inclusive
stipulation of 'physiological' in my post, I certainly agree
> with you. Or
that our semantic reaction roots into us genetically, sure
> opens a
whole new set of considerations! I can't help but think of Carl
> Jung's
Collective here. If we consider that these ancient, unconscious
> collective
associations happen physiologically in our brains or brain stems,
> then Jung
agrees with you. I sure believe that Jung's Collective evolves.
> I believe
that these reactions or associations we have,
> or that the
relationship we have
> between us
(our minds) to these archetypal symbols, motifs, whatever
> happen or
occur physiologically! I cannot separate us to any degree from
> the physical
world! Then, our physiologically
evolving Collective
> Unconscious
that Jung described, and documented, supports what you write!
Eating food for
lunch. mexican kind. jung probably affects my thinking
here. in a debate with my shrink once we got to
where he conceded that
Jungian
archetypes extend to the 'genetic' level.
i don't believe that
he quite fathomed
the extensions and implications of this conception.
this would - if
true - eliminate the physiological difficulties i was
having before.
i am really
interested in the notion of 'allergy' as archetype. i think
that the
'virus'/'allergy' notion as archetype is worth exploring.
just went over to
J. Hood bookstore on massachusetts avenue and snagged
a copy of Kenneth
Burke's Language as Symbolic Action. it
is seriously
reminding me of
some questions which i'll address when i get back to
salina.
for starters a
hint is talking about the way that symbolic-action is
viral in its
relation to "time" which seems a critical part of the
virus. i'll think about this on the drive home and
relate more to you
then.
>
> > it is a
fine line here. something of a
paradoxical one. the amount of
> >
biological determinism involved in symbolic behavior cuts into the
> > ability
of human beings to get past this 'allergy'.
>
> I don't like
this notion of biological determinism though. To me, this
> implies
human symbolic behavior had some finite beginning. I don't even
> believe our
human symbolic behavior began with the Big Bang.
> Or the Big
Bang prior to the most recent one. We just evolve. To David
> Bohm,
everything just exists continually evolving (changing). To Bohm,
> reality
evolved to point we experience currently, and will continue--and
> language, symbolic
behavior, etc. with it. This seems much as a
> metaphysical
claim. So much of Bohm borders in the metaphysical. He could
> debate his
understanding. I do not have sufficient understanding to
> debate what
he wrote. And I detest others attempting to suck me into
> metaphysical
debates. I either believe or not. So I'll stop at that not
> intending to
create such a metaphysical issue here...
not trying to get
into metaphysical (i don't care for that word).
it is
mostly a
conceptual question of virus as figurative vs. virus as
literal. i think that the archetypal notion might
connect the two.
>
> Have you
read the Proust book Neal Cassady wrote of so often? I checked
> that from
the library last winter and read the 1st half of it. It proved
> a long
winding read! My point here, though, I believe Neal Cassady
> thought
deeply about this very subject that you initiated or that
> Burroughs
initiated. And I couldn't help compare Proust descriptions as a
> young child
of questioning existence to Jung's childhood turmoil about God's
> existence.
Neal Cassady seemed to toil with this same issue--
> memorizing
each Pope in prison, etc. and going off into Edgar Casey, etc.
> Somehow, it
seems connected...
not read
Proust. Jung's specific questioning
probably had to do with
being a
preacher's kid. the 'type' of questions
seem very connected.
Kierkegaard
probably links them most often. don't
know if he finds an
answer. these questions do relate to the control of
the virus on human
activity.
>
> Michael L.
Buchenroth
>
mike@buchenroth.com
>
www.buchenroth.com
> To view
> Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
> go to
>
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:33:42 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: The Mecca of Lawrence....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
So Patricia ...and david?
does this mean
that you've travelled to Lawrence and are now at Patricia's?
....very cool if
true - what a list!
antoine (using
more lower case letters because I broke my wrist last night
when a ladder
broke under me....just as renovation season starts! not too
bad though - i
only have a splint on it/
antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:02:45 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: list count
Comments: To:
Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
fred,
message i sent
this am came back with 182 recipients; this pm it was at 248!
can you explain
the mysteries of subscriber's count?
thanks
antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:14:18 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: list count
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
fred,
that should have
said 231 - 248 was from your prior post about subscribers
when it was
reported to be at 248 altrhough we were seeing under 200 on our
recipients count
that shows with message confirmation.
antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:25:50 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: The Mecca of Lawrence....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Antoine Maloney
wrote:
>
> So
Patricia ...and david?
>
> does this
mean that you've travelled to Lawrence and are now at Patricia's?
> ....very
cool if true - what a list!
>
> antoine
(using more lower case letters because I broke my wrist last night
> when a
ladder broke under me....just as renovation season starts! not too
> bad though -
i only have a splint on it/
>
> antoine
>
> Patricia
wrote
yes david got
here early this morning, i have drug him all over town and
he has the Billy
Plymell room in the basement. I got to
feed him and
there will be a
turkey and pie party sunday. Anyone on the list of
course is
invited. lol
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 16:48:30 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg memorial in NJ
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Can someone
please post, or re-post, the scheduling of the memorial that
is sposed to
occur in i think Paterson NJ. i would appreciate info.
Where, and when
is it taking place, does anyone know how to give
directions from
say, rt. 80.
thanks,
Eric
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:17:03 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Nordine, Jack et al...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tony,
Nordine's "colors" recording
was originally a series of radio spots
for a paint
company.
antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:48:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Nordine, Jack et al...
Antoine:
Annie Ross
provided some of the best original scat and sometimes recorded
with King
Pleasure. I saw her once. I didn't realize she was from Ireland.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:29:34 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Mecca of Lawrence....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Antoine
Maloney wrote:
> >
> > So
Patricia ...and david?
> >
> > does
this mean that you've travelled to Lawrence and are now at Patricia's?
> >
....very cool if true - what a list!
> >
> > antoine
(using more lower case letters because I broke my wrist last night
> > when a
ladder broke under me....just as renovation season starts! not too
> > bad
though - i only have a splint on it/
> >
> > antoine
> >
> > Patricia
wrote
>
> yes david
got here early this morning, i have drug him all over town and
> he has the
Billy Plymell room in the basement. I
got to feed him and
> there will
be a turkey and pie party sunday. Anyone on the list of
> course is
invited. lol
> patricia
That was a little
confusing at first, hearing David's words under
Patricia
Elliott's sig. It would make it
interesting, wouldn't it, if we
each could live
out our own "on the road" on the list, traveling across
the country,
knowing that somewhere down the road was a friendly beat-l
member waiting
for us to arrive?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:45:19 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: The billy plymell slept here odysy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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Patricia wrote
Are beat- l
member activities list related. We ate, who cares what, and
watched evening
star, and wondered is Jack Nicklson ( who was only in
that movie as a
cameo)beat related because of easy rider?
Went with David
to Hoods used books store, where a fast but good time
was had. John
Hood said that it was hard to keep anything of wsb's in.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:54:37 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: beat-hotel and dinner establishment
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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this is not
patricia ... this is me david aka race
it appears that
the beat-hotel has moved to lawrence.
the time here has
been wonderful.
food report -
dinner, good, italian
read half of
queer this afternoon and found some other notions for virus
thread.
patricia says to
tell WHAT book i bought. i bought
Kenneth Burke
(columbia
drop-out), Language as Symbolic Action.
reading essay on Poe
and perfection
right now. well actually that was b4 my
siesta and b4
reading from
Queer.
the movie was
good. i kept saying when is jack showing
up. when is
jack showing
up. he still stole the show.
had my first chat
experience today. told them i was from
Mars.
Lawrence is
wonderful. ghostlike memories of fifteen
years ago when i
lived here and
many changes some even good.
tempting just to
move here again next week.
got done with the
movie in time to watch michael jordan lose.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
On Route to KC 4
wedding (not mine)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:22:55 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: The billy plymell slept here odysy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Patricia
wrote
> Are beat- l
member activities list related. We ate, who cares what, and
> watched
evening star, and wondered is Jack Nicklson ( who was only in
> that movie
as a cameo)beat related because of easy rider?
> Went with
David to Hoods used books store, where a fast but good time
> was had.
John Hood said that it was hard to keep anything of wsb's in.
> p
Patricia and
David,
I would say Jack
is definitly at least Beat Related.
Hopper had photos
in the Whitney
thing when it passed through SF and flew up for the
Ginsberg Memorial
in SF, so at least by association Jack has to be at
least
tangentially beat.
And in my view
the activities of list members are certainly appropriate
fodder for the
list. (As long as you guys aren't
secretely forging each
other's
signatures in order to purloin each other's posthumous
archives.)
I'll be with you
in spirit in Lawrence at your turkey and pie feed.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:43:04 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Hendrix came from Mars too.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
this is me david
aka race, wrote:
told them i was
from Mars.
David,
Jimi Hendrix said
he was from an asteroid belt near Mars.
Do you think
there used to be
a planet between Mars and Jupiter? There
is a thread
on this that runs
through psychedlic rock, so it could just be an LSD
thing, or it
could be information in the genes.
Funny, if you see Jimi
in a dream, ask
him, I will.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:56:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Oh yeah, and in case you been dissing
Carl Jung lately
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Oh yeah, and in
case you been dissing Carl Jung, the collective
unconscious and
archetypes lately, this was posted to the Hendrix mail
list and I just
read it:
>Someone was
commenting on an interview with Carlos Santana and reported
that >Santana
said about Hendrix:
>They (sic)
great thing was that they talked about him
>different
than anyone else. Santanta said he was a
sound sculpturer,
and
>that his
blues sounded like they came from Mars.
Someone else also
>mentioned
that he seemed to come from outer space.
It was all quite
>exciting.
So, David, maybe
you are from Mars, after all, Well, I won't go back
there now that I
think about it.
;-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:39:21 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: lets return to the old message system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
what about
returning to the old system, or is my server down.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:53:50 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> what about
returning to the old system, or is my server down.
> p
I agree. The silence is deafening. We had a week this way, all the
fighting has
stopped. But a lot of the interesting
spontaneity has also
disappeared. I think some people are afraid to join in and
some haven't
figured out how
the new system works. Rinaldo sent me
e-mail saying he
didn't understand
what was going on. I tried to explain
and I think he
now understands
despite my lack of Italian. People who
feel they are
getting too much
mail can always delete anything they don't want to read.
Let's get on with it again.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:28:26 BST
Reply-To: Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Harberd
<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Question: WSB and Foucault?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Mon, 19 May
1997 09:06:01 -0500 RACE --- wrote:
> From: RACE
--- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
> Date: Mon,
19 May 1997 09:06:01 -0500
> Subject: Re:
Question: WSB and Foucault?
> To: Multiple
recipients of list BEAT-L
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
> Thomas
Harberd wrote:
> >
> > Does
anyone know if WSB ever met (or read) Foucault?
It
> > seems
that they share many common concerns, especially
those
> >
relating to power structures and control.
They were
also
> > both
homosexual, although that's perhaps a bit of a weak
> > (trite)
link. Just wondering...
> >
> > Tom. H.
> >
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
> > "A
Bear of Very Little Brain"
>
> some overlap
but Foucault didn't wrote thick arhealogical
philosophy
> while
Burroughs wrote thick novels. it seems
this choice
of form is a
> significant
difference.
>
> Foucault was
primarily a cannabis partaker. bowl on
the
shelf near his
> work table
read to unblock writer's block.
>
> but there
are some parallels in methods as with all the
new critics of
> language. Writing was 50 years behind painting and
critical theory
was
> 25 years
behind Writing.... :)
>
> david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:26:15 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> >what
about returning to the old system, or is my server down.
> >p
>
> patricia,
it's still set on personal.
> in my
opinon, we did just fine until that particular piece of excrement hit
> the
proverbial fan..
> i vote, too
> but alas
only you will get my vot
> as my
copy/paste thingee is screwed up.
> btw,
> hi
> mc
no problem we can
forward,
patricia and
David, we took him to the at center sale , an dumpster
kmart expo.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:48:01 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Welcome to BEAT-L
Dear BEAT-L
Members:
I have just been
connected to this group of Beat enthusiasts by my good
friend Jeffrey
Weinberg. I look forward to sharing my
experiences with you,
and vice
versa. My single greatest Beat
experience so far, which will
probably never be
exceeded, was my visit, on February 19,
1995, with William
S. Burroughs at
his home in Lawrence, Kansas. I think
that Burroughs,
Ginsberg, Kerouac
and Huncke (who along with Cassady were
great influences
on and subjects
of the other 3 without leaving us much of their own creation)
are the Mt.
Rushmore of the Beat Generation, and WSB
is my favorite of them
all, the one
whose works I have read and collected the most, have the most
knowledge of and
simply enjoy and have learned the most from.
He preceded in
age, and exceeded
in the depth and breadth of his life and its lessons, all
the others. Indeed, he is one of the key figures in the
shaping of this
waning century,
and a prophet of the future. The Beats
were more
interrelated and
inter-referential than any other literary or cultural
phenomenon that I
know of, you can't really get into one
without
encountering the
others, but WSB is a giant among the giants, and
interestingly is
the sole survivor among them, though the oldest and not
exactly having
been an exemplar of clean living.
I must go now,
but I hope to hear more from you and you will certainly be
hearing more from
me.
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:18:16 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:53 PM -0700
6/7/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> People who
feel they are
> getting too
much mail can always delete anything they don't want to read.
> Let's get on with it again.
> DC
might I suggest
you folx set up a "digest" version of the beat-list. This
way every
"x" amount of posts, or every 12 hours, or every kilobyte of
messages (I don't
know how it's set up), a compact, SINGLE, email is sent
to all the
subscribers. Out on the Patti Smith list
<ahem> we have both
types. We've had our share of flames too BTW. All will pass.
It'd also be nice
to see a web site with a search engine connected to a
beat-list
archive. But I'll harp on that another
time...
<<back to
lurker mode>> cheers, Douglas
> I'll master your language
> the riddle of steel, shall I
tell you
> my wave, my wave, my wave, my
wave, my wave....
> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:07:38 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Marioka7@aol.com
wrote:
>
> david (and
patricia),
> I'm back
from brooklyn, had a good time but remembered why i left in the
> first
place. Interesting discussion on
burroughs and viruses (viri?). Am
>
mega-depressed though i don't know why. Yesterday was my 22nd birthday. i'm
> jealous that
you're in burroughs' town. I want to
meet him real bad. David,
> you know how
much he has influenced me. it's really
grey and blah here...a
> good day for
suicide. I wish i had some drugs. Oh well, i'll try to cheer
> up and sent
you a more interesting letter later today or maybe tomorrow. To
> tell you the
truth, i think what i really need is to get laid. Sorry to be
> so crude,
but sometimes the truth is that way.
Anyhoo, i'm going to go work
> on
that. Later, -------------maya
patricia writes
excellant plan ,
not the sucide but the other.
david yells over
from the tub, to just have a strong cup of coffee.
patricia writes
yeh a stong cup
of coffee, thats the ticket.
poem
bill
william walks,
denim swishing,
cat hairs cling
to his cuffs,
throwing globules
at the goldfish,
straight at them,
like a first pitch of baseball season.
What did the
lesbian frog say to the other lesbian frog,
hey , you really
do taste like chicken,
Lesbian frog
answers,
and how do you
know what chicken tasts like?
tweak that, and
write back
patricia and
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:24:16 -0400
Reply-To: "Lawrence M. Ladutke"
<lladutke@CUNY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lawrence M. Ladutke"
<lladutke@CUNY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject: UNSUSCRIBE BEATL
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
UNSUSCRIBE BEATL
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:10:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: what's goin' down?
why is everybody
suddenly unsubsribing? I hope this madness ends.
I just came back from NYC. How i miss the
smell of falafel adn gyros walking
down avenue A at
3 am, dodging dope dealers, inhaling carbon monoxide,
wondering how the
guy in front of me got such high platforms put on his
sneakers. Picking up a video at Kim's...watching the
guy sitting across from
me on the L nod
out like there's no tomorrow. Graffiti
poems and
watered-down gin
and tonics at Mona's or the Lakeside Lounge.
So how's your
writng/painting/filmmaking
going?
Guess who Janice
is going out with? A frenchman! Weren't you seeing that guy
from that band?
Check out my new skirt. Leopard print is
so last year. Get
with it. No one's really happy, they just pretend they
are. Put on your
face, we're going
to the bar. Vague memories of colors
through a heroin
haze. Where are all the cool kids? Why did you lie
to me? People carrying
combs around in
case hairstyles should suddenly change.
Comedy or tragedy,
you choose. I
heard your mom did it with that actor. I
haven't been getting
much sleep, my
lifestyle interferes. There's no time or place for integrity
here. You'll only get stepped on. No time for truth, just cause i'm a girl.
Do you wanna fuck me? How many people wanna fuck YOU? Hah! your skirt must
be longer than
mine.
That's what you
get. She looked like she wanted it.
I went to her apartment, it was all
cluttered with stuff---papers, phone
numbers scrawled
on the back on receipts. Her boyfriend
was about 7 feet
tall, about 2
feet taller than her. Anyway, I gave her
the money but she
wanted to
talk. Sat me down on the plastic-covered
sofa. The doorbell rang
and she looked
through the hole as she unlocked it.
Some girl walked in with
teeth
missing. told me unsolicitedly that she
sold condoms for a dollar a
piece cause she
got them free at the clinic. That one
left, and i wondered
why she had
singled me out for a "talk".
She was obviously high, cause she
kept repeating
herself and her eyes were half closed. she showed me pictures
of her daughters
in the half-lit room.
She went to the
bathroom, and I slipped a nice set of watercolors that were
lying on the
table into my bag. I should paint
more. She'll never notice,
and anyway
they're probably her daughter's. Sat
through another 10 minutes
of pictures, then
i finally said that i needed the stuff NOW.
she said oh,
sorry, why didn't
you say so before? And i decided to leave right away, there
was a bar across
the street I could run into to do it. I
just remember one
thing she said
that stuck in my head:" Once the city gets under your skin,
you never want to
leave."
I'm scared that
she, of all people, is right. This time.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:28:40 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The billy plymell slept here odysy
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
James:
Let me know if
you got my packet yet. Sorry I don't have a Now magazine for
inclusion. Dennis
Hopper sent me a collage I reproduced in it. It's about as
scarce as a
Zap. Do let me know if Forever Wider
wasn't in the packet and
I'll get the one
we scanned in the mail to you.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:10:58 -0400
Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey s. Landau"
<JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>
Subject: >>>>>>>Unsubscribe BEAT
L
>>>>>>>>>>>Unsubscribe
JefLtsTalk@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:49:12 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Charles Plymell & the Beats
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Hi Charles,
I'm being
interviewed by Pulse Magazine and thought you'd get a
kick out of the
damn thing. When it hits the racks I'll send you
one. They asked a
lot of the typical questions like: influences,
mistakes,
friends, Beats etc. They asked me about my long friendship
with Bukowski,
and as usual, the big: Did he influence you? I answer
with the usual:
Fuck No! We knew each other big deal. Then they ask
about A.G. Were
you friends? I answer no, we met a couple of times
he turned me onto
a few Beat related things, writers, and we exchanged
some letters.
Then they hit me with this one (you gotta love it!)=97
Have you ever
been hit so hard you shit yourself? After damn near dying
of laughter, I
was finally able to give them this: "Well, I have
taken many blows
in my time and I've only been knocked off my feet
twice-once by a
refrigerator door, but I can honestly say no I haven't
shit my pants
from a punch.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:46:56 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: good bedroom
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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CVEditions@aol.com
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-07 01:49:59 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
well this is a nice bedroom you all fixed up here two weeks ago. >>
> David &
Patricia
> Hope you
drove past the old Rockchalk where S.Clay, Jim & I used to hang
> out.Yeah
Patricia, that sinus infectionion is still pounding me. I think I
> got it in
Billy's dorm at the Univ. of Montana. Dorm infenctions are
> viscious. It
didn't hit that hard until N.C., where I got some antibiotics. I
> hope I
didn't leave any trace in Lawrence. Do Check on B. for me. He didn't
> seemed
concerned, but I wanted to cut the visit short anyway to get through
> Missourah by
daylight.
> Lena, other
lines I remember as a kid way out in Gutheryland was.."Who's
> gonna talk
your future over/while I'm ramblin in the West?" Always stuck with
> me. My dad
used to sing it. I just assumed every kid studied and sang
> Gutherie in
school. Wut's happened to our educashun system anywho??
We are all well
here, lena's favorite song is this land is our land, her
grandfathers is
jack's song Oklahoma hills, she just didn't know the
line. But her
favorite music right now is alanis morrisett or someone.
Rock chalk on a
friday afternoon is still a great porch gathering.
david and I hit
the book stores and he found one of my other boxes of
books , came
across wsb's My Education and we are both reading it now.I
now have the four
boxes of burroughs stuff going into boxes of acid free
paper but it is
too much fun sorting.
b is doing fine,
probably short was good as he had some art thing the
next day. Boy you all come by any time. it was fun.
Gargle with 8 oz of very warm water with a teaspoon of
salt, gargle
gently and drink
water and juice, Bob says hi. lena is asleep now, she
loves the new set
up in the basement.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:10:03 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
In-Reply-To: <199706061551.AA205262297@lulu.acns.nwu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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arrgggrrrrhhh!
i agree with
nick's thought-filled post. i am constantly cut and pasting my
messages to list
all over creation up here in these parts.
bill, you did
what was needed at the time, yes. but am also missing the
tumble down acres
of list mail from all to all.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:44:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: List changes
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
arrgggrrrrhhh!
> i agree with
nick's thought-filled post. i am constantly cut and
> pasting my
> messages to
list all over creation up here in these parts.
> bill, you
did what was needed at the time, yes. but am also missing
> the
> tumble down
acres of list mail from all to all.
> mc
As a test post, I just hit, return to sender
and all recipients, is
this going to the
beat list, I guess the confirmation returns.
I use
Netscape and
sometimes Z-Mail by Netmanage. If this
post makes it to
the list, then
while the recipient will get two posts, or you can simply
delete the sender
and send it to the beat list, this should revive the
"GOOD"
give and take. Maybe some mail programs
don't allow you to do
this, and then
again, maybe this doesn't work.
Me, I am on the
verge of traveling to San Francisco.
Once I am there, I
am thinking of
hopping onto the Zipper and riding to Seattle, but, I
won't. So, if Charles P. ever ran down the phone
number or confirmed
the address of
the person for me to contact when I get to San Francisco,
I would
appreciate it very much. If anyone else
has suggestions on SF,
I am listening. Send them back channel, send them on the
list, just
send them.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:19:17 -0400
Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey s. Landau"
<JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>
Subject: >>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE
>>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:20:10 -0400
Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey s. Landau"
<JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>
Subject: >>>UNSUBSCRIBE
Jeff Landau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:21:49 -0400
Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Jeffrey s. Landau"
<JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
JefLtsTalk@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:42:47 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: >>>UNSUBSCRIBE
Comments: To:
JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Jeffrey s. Landau
wrote:
> Jeff Landau
Jeff:
I am not sure,
but I believe the address to unsubscribe is:
listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu
and not the beat
list. On the other hand, maybe you are
working out
your karma and
simply will not be allowed to unsubscribe?
Maybe you
should just give
into life in all of its wondrous rush, or at least stop
posting
unsubscribe messages here. It ain't
gonna work.
Best of luck in your
quest.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:02:16 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> >
arrgggrrrrhhh!
> > i agree
with nick's thought-filled post. i am constantly cut and
> > pasting
my
> >
messages to list all over creation up here in these parts.
> > bill,
you did what was needed at the time, yes. but am also missing
> > the
> > tumble
down acres of list mail from all to all.
> > mc
>
> As a test post, I just hit, return to sender
and all recipients, is
> this going
to the beat list, I guess the confirmation returns. I use
> Netscape and
sometimes Z-Mail by Netmanage. If this
post makes it to
> the list,
then while the recipient will get two posts, or you can simply
> delete the
sender and send it to the beat list, this should revive the
>
"GOOD" give and take. Maybe
some mail programs don't allow you to do
> this, and
then again, maybe this doesn't work.
>
> Me, I am on
the verge of traveling to San Francisco.
Once I am there, I
> am thinking
of hopping onto the Zipper and riding to Seattle, but, I
> won't. So, if Charles P. ever ran down the phone
number or confirmed
> the address
of the person for me to contact when I get to San Francisco,
> I would
appreciate it very much. If anyone else
has suggestions on SF,
> I am
listening. Send them back channel, send
them on the list, just
> send them.
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
I was using the
cut & paste version but now for some reason, the paste
part doesn't work
and I'm back to typing in the beat-l address.
My
version of
Netscape does not have a return to sender option. How long
are you going to
be in San Francisco? I was going to post
my response
soon to what you had to say about about the poetry of
T.S. Eliot, and
defend my belief
as to why AG is by far the better poet, but haven't
gotten to it yet.
Would hate for you to miss it.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:13:26 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: So, I got up this morning and...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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So, I got up this
morning and like, all I can see is some rap about
heroin in New
York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the
reply button and
some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe.
And I am
thinking man,
give me at least a little flame war. If
it wasn't for
David Race,
Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this
list would be
dead.
What happened to
all the folks who said stop the flame wars, I wanna get
off but didn't get
off? Where is all this beat stuff you
were gonna
talk about if
only those other people would stop their ugly talk? Why
is the list dead
in the water?
For me, I would
rather the flame wars were back in order.
By the way, I
still have not
heard from Martha Mayo, should I write her back?
Maybe everybody
is tired, and Lisa, you can't even look at your nails,
much less work on
them anymore while this list downloads.
Well, I guess we
ought to get Ken Nordine to record the emaildiots. It
could be about a
mail list where nobody posts, instead they all sit
around waiting
for some poor sucker like me to flame the whole list and
then they pounce
on him and tear him to shreds, like the women in the
Cult of the
Goddess do on their rants, and scream, oh please don't hurt
our list. What LIST?
Is there any poetry here? Hey
Lisa, why don't
you post some
poetry?
Maybe we could
change the name to the Beat-lurks instead.
The return
says over 230 are
subscribed, but no posts no posts no posts no posts no
posts no posts no
posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
posts no posts no
posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
posts no posts no
posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
posts!
Well, I ain't
gonna risk getting flamed by this list,
no sir, I am
gonna sit right
here and if you see this post just remember, Bentz
didn't send it,
his evil twin the flame meister did. Hey
that
sonofabitch would
flame the whole lot of you if I would let him, I mean,
he would do it
just to get a response, and if you got angry, he would
LOL at your
responses.
Hey have you got
one of those evil twin guys or gals
inside of you.
Bob Dylan does.
>From Where
are You Tonight:
I fought with my
twin, my enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the way
Horseplay and
disease is killing me by degrees while the law looks the
other way
and earlier in
the same song he said:
The truth was
obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to
explode.
In that last hour
of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of
the road.
So there you go
folks, are you willing to explode, are you willing to
sacrifice, have
you met your twin and fought him or her withing til BOTH
of you fell by
the way. What are you going to say.
I have seen the
best emailers of my generation silenced by the threat of
disapproval.
They were once
posters of poetry, talk lies backstabbing, truth honesty,
big shits and
real shits.
But now they have
dwindled off into qwerty induced hazes, seduced by
protocol,
enslavened by fear of the flame,
And they have
died.
Died in the
silicone chip world festered by Stanford.
Oh, did any voice
ring out?
Oh, did any voice
have courage?
Oh, did my return
button silence my voice?
Oh, why did they
lack the courage, or, is it that they just chose not to
use it.
I want my beat-l,
I want my beat-l they chanted like some MTV inbread
beavis and
butthead listening to too much Dire Straights.
We got to move
these email posts, we got to be flamed, maybe getting a
tarnish on your
reputation, maybe get a tarnish on your little poem,
maybe get a
bruise on your little ego, maybe get a bruise on your little
head.
Well I say screw
the beat list cause it ain't dying, it is already
dead. You just were afraid to admit it and this is
just a good excuse
to go whimpering
off into a gentle good night.
But me, I ain't
gonna let fear or ego or what you think about me or what
you do or what
you say about my poetry or what you sit on your ass doing
nails or whatever
stop this list. This is a post to
beat-l, is anybody
home, or are you
all gonna run and hide!
Peace to those of
you who are willing to pay the price to get out of
going through all
these things twice.
Bentz, flaming
you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I
don't even have a
shirt on.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:23:49 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: 231, uhh 230
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
This was the
reply to my last post:
>Your message
dated Sun, 08 Jun 1997 11:13:26 -0400
with subject "So,
I got
>up this
morning and..." has been successfully distributed to the BEAT-L
list
>(231
recipients).
So there are 229
of you out there, not counting me and the poor guy in
unsubscribe hell,
and the Beat L is dead, curious curious, curious. I
think I will
write a poem, go get laid ( I liked that post) and then see
if my wife is
awake. Gotta go see my neighbor, she
looks kinda lonely
and all over
there. ;-)
Peace and
procreation to all of you!
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:24:57 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
patricia wrote
i was so sick of
the flame war, and i am willing to wait for the list to
resestablish some
interesting threads. I have a weakness for poetry but
am looking for a
regional poetry list to list my new cowboys are fun to
emascalate
poem. I don't feel like a weekend is a
fair time to judge
the lists
vitality, but would like to continue the idea of returning to
the previous
mailing format. I am making pies this
afternoon and
decided to invent
a new pie after Ohle's story, chili hearts, i have a
great soup called
chili hearts soup.
oh i am in a
wonderful mood. sorry, i watch it.
p
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Peace to
those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of
> going
through all these things twice.
>
> Bentz,
flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I
> don't even have
a shirt on.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:48:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
In-Reply-To: <339AB756.1DCC7756@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
in the land of
the blind
the one-eyed man
is king.
dylan
also,
it's tom waits
who piano has been drinking
feeling
elfish
today
hi bill,
struggling with all this shit.
good thoughts to
you
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:18:13 +0100
Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
In-Reply-To: <339ACC15.4C3462D@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Maybe we
could change the name to the Beat-lurks instead. The return
> says over
230 are subscribed, but no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> posts no
posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> posts no
posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> posts no
posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> posts!
Bentz, man,
you're asking for it. ok. If I had any money I'd happily pay
that
price...(y'know, the one that keeps you from having to go thru all
these things
twice)... furthermore, "they all fall there so perfectly, it
all seems so well
timed" - but then dylan also said "do not trust bathroom
walls that have
not been written on... when asked to look at yourself,
never look...
when asked for your real name, never give it." If the dylan
list is indeed
stagnating, it must just mean that they haven't been
reading enough of
his stuff... they could sit there until Armageddon
quoting obscure
lines back and forth in total righteousness & hubris.
I was going to
write more, but folks, if I was going to be spontaneous, I
would have
already been spontaneous, without
thinking about it. In fact,
maybe I am being
spontaneous right now. I am. But then you take a moment
to look at the
moment, & it's gone...
Olly R.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Survival of
the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
considered the
idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
Could the Doctor
have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
_______________________________________________________________________________
or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
skink@imrryr.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
On Sun, 8 Jun
1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> So, I got up
this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about
> heroin in
New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the
> reply button
and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe.
And I am
> thinking
man, give me at least a little flame war.
If it wasn't for
> David Race,
Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this
> list would
be dead.
>
> What
happened to all the folks who said stop the flame wars, I wanna get
> off but
didn't get off? Where is all this beat
stuff you were gonna
> talk about
if only those other people would stop their ugly talk? Why
> is the list
dead in the water?
>
> For me, I
would rather the flame wars were back in order.
By the way, I
> still have
not heard from Martha Mayo, should I write her back?
>
> Maybe
everybody is tired, and Lisa, you can't even look at your nails,
> much less
work on them anymore while this list downloads.
>
> Well, I
guess we ought to get Ken Nordine to record the emaildiots. It
> could be about
a mail list where nobody posts, instead they all sit
> around
waiting for some poor sucker like me to flame the whole list and
> then they
pounce on him and tear him to shreds, like the women in the
> Cult of the
Goddess do on their rants, and scream, oh please don't hurt
> our
list. What LIST? Is there any poetry here? Hey Lisa, why don't
> you post
some poetry?
>
>
> Well, I
ain't gonna risk getting flamed by this list,
no sir, I am
> gonna sit
right here and if you see this post just remember, Bentz
> didn't send
it, his evil twin the flame meister did.
Hey that
> sonofabitch
would flame the whole lot of you if I would let him, I mean,
> he would do
it just to get a response, and if you got angry, he would
> LOL at your
responses.
>
> Hey have you
got one of those evil twin guys or gals
inside of you.
> Bob Dylan
does.
>
> >From
Where are You Tonight:
>
> I fought
with my twin, my enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the way
> Horseplay
and disease is killing me by degrees while the law looks the
> other way
>
> and earlier
in the same song he said:
>
> The truth
was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to
> explode.
> In that last
hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of
> the road.
>
> So there you
go folks, are you willing to explode, are you willing to
> sacrifice,
have you met your twin and fought him or her withing til BOTH
> of you fell
by the way. What are you going to say.
>
> I have seen
the best emailers of my generation silenced by the threat of
> disapproval.
> They were
once posters of poetry, talk lies backstabbing, truth honesty,
> big shits
and real shits.
> But now they
have dwindled off into qwerty induced hazes, seduced by
> protocol,
enslavened by fear of the flame,
> And they
have died.
> Died in the
silicone chip world festered by Stanford.
> Oh, did any
voice ring out?
> Oh, did any
voice have courage?
> Oh, did my
return button silence my voice?
> Oh, why did
they lack the courage, or, is it that they just chose not to
> use it.
>
> I want my
beat-l, I want my beat-l they chanted like some MTV inbread
> beavis and
butthead listening to too much Dire Straights.
> We got to
move these email posts, we got to be flamed, maybe getting a
> tarnish on
your reputation, maybe get a tarnish on your little poem,
> maybe get a
bruise on your little ego, maybe get a bruise on your little
> head.
> Well I say
screw the beat list cause it ain't dying, it is already
> dead. You just were afraid to admit it and this is
just a good excuse
> to go
whimpering off into a gentle good night.
>
> But me, I
ain't gonna let fear or ego or what you think about me or what
> you do or
what you say about my poetry or what you sit on your ass doing
> nails or
whatever stop this list. This is a post
to beat-l, is anybody
> home, or are
you all gonna run and hide!
>
> Peace to
those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of
> going
through all these things twice.
>
> Bentz,
flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I
> don't even
have a shirt on.
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:12:04 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: List changes
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Marie Countryman
wrote:
> in the land
of the blind
> the one-eyed
man is king.
> dylan
> also,
> it's tom
waits who piano has been drinking
> feeling
> elfish
> today
> hi bill,
struggling with all this shit.
> good
thoughts to you
> mc
But, Marie, isn't there some thingamajigaroony
that you can buy for
$19.95 that will
cure it all?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:23:12 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: SF Trip
While your in SF
look up SS Kush 1557 Franklin, 292-5554. He was going to
start a poetry
museum with my hat. Also Dave Moe 1731 10th Ave Apt A
Berkeley,
510-528-8713. He was at my 1963 party on Gough that Ginzy,
Ferlinghetti,
everyone came to, flipping out on much Sandoz. He wants some
poetry for a book
he's bringing out in Berkely. Please tell him I'm working
on getting him
the poems. Maybe you will have something for him. Give him my
old and crazy
love.
Charles Plymell
Nostalgia is
vertical
Taste is
horizontal
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:29:17 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system
Douglas:
I'd like to get
on Patti's list specially if it's flaming. I'd also like to
know if she ever
received my sea turtle/nest t-shirt. I was recently on the
outer banks with
the sea turtle rescue group. "Why did go away and leave me
in Big Mamu"
(An old 50s race music song.) Don't know why it came to my head.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:36:30 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: List changes
In-Reply-To: <l03020903afc04c7814d2@[206.25.67.117]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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model of
bird
to
attract
other
birds
--- the cat
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:36:46 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
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Olly Ruff wrote:
>
> > Maybe
we could change the name to the Beat-lurks instead. The return
> > says
over 230 are subscribed, but no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> > posts
no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> > posts
no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> > posts
no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no
> > posts!
>
> Bentz, man,
you're asking for it. ok. If I had any money I'd happily pay
> that
price...(y'know, the one that keeps you from having to go thru all
> these things
twice)... furthermore, "they all fall there so perfectly, it
> all seems so
well timed" - but then dylan also said "do not trust bathroom
> walls that
have not been written on... when asked to look at yourself,
> never
look... when asked for your real name, never give it." If the dylan
> list is
indeed stagnating, it must just mean that they haven't been
> reading
enough of his stuff... they could sit there until Armageddon
> quoting
obscure lines back and forth in total righteousness & hubris.
>
> I was going
to write more, but folks, if I was going to be spontaneous, I
> would have
already been spontaneous, without
thinking about it. In fact,
> maybe I am
being spontaneous right now. I am. But then you take a moment
> to look at
the moment, & it's gone...
>
> Olly
R.
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
>
>
"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
> considered
the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
> Could the
Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
>
> or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
> skink@imrryr.org
>
_______________________________________________________________________________
>
> On Sun, 8
Jun 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> > So, I
got up this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about
> > heroin
in New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the
> > reply
button and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe. And I am
> >
thinking man, give me at least a little flame war. If it wasn't for
> > David
Race, Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this
> > list
would be dead.
> >
> > What
happened to all the folks who said stop the flame wars, I wanna get
> > off but
didn't get off? Where is all this beat
stuff you were gonna
> > talk
about if only those other people would stop their ugly talk? Why
> > is the
list dead in the water?
> >
> > For me,
I would rather the flame wars were back in order. By the way, I
> > still
have not heard from Martha Mayo, should I write her back?
> >
> > Maybe
everybody is tired, and Lisa, you can't even look at your nails,
> > much
less work on them anymore while this list downloads.
> >
> > Well, I
guess we ought to get Ken Nordine to record the emaildiots. It
> > could
be about a mail list where nobody posts, instead they all sit
> > around
waiting for some poor sucker like me to flame the whole list and
> > then
they pounce on him and tear him to shreds, like the women in the
> > Cult of
the Goddess do on their rants, and scream, oh please don't hurt
> > our
list. What LIST? Is there any poetry here? Hey Lisa, why don't
> > you
post some poetry?
> >
> >
> > Well, I
ain't gonna risk getting flamed by this list,
no sir, I am
> > gonna
sit right here and if you see this post just remember, Bentz
> > didn't
send it, his evil twin the flame meister did.
Hey that
> >
sonofabitch would flame the whole lot of you if I would let him, I mean,
> > he
would do it just to get a response, and if you got angry, he would
> > LOL at
your responses.
> >
> > Hey
have you got one of those evil twin guys
or gals inside of you.
> > Bob
Dylan does.
> >
> >
>From Where are You Tonight:
> >
> > I
fought with my twin, my enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the way
> >
Horseplay and disease is killing me by degrees while the law looks the
> > other
way
> >
> > and
earlier in the same song he said:
> >
> > The
truth was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to
> >
explode.
> > In that
last hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of
> > the
road.
> >
> > So
there you go folks, are you willing to explode, are you willing to
> >
sacrifice, have you met your twin and fought him or her withing til BOTH
> > of you
fell by the way. What are you going to
say.
> >
> > I have
seen the best emailers of my generation silenced by the threat of
> >
disapproval.
> > They
were once posters of poetry, talk lies backstabbing, truth honesty,
> > big
shits and real shits.
> > But now
they have dwindled off into qwerty induced hazes, seduced by
> >
protocol, enslavened by fear of the flame,
> > And
they have died.
> > Died in
the silicone chip world festered by Stanford.
> > Oh, did
any voice ring out?
> > Oh, did
any voice have courage?
> > Oh, did
my return button silence my voice?
> > Oh, why
did they lack the courage, or, is it that they just chose not to
> > use it.
> >
> > I want
my beat-l, I want my beat-l they chanted like some MTV inbread
> > beavis
and butthead listening to too much Dire Straights.
> > We got
to move these email posts, we got to be flamed, maybe getting a
> > tarnish
on your reputation, maybe get a tarnish on your little poem,
> > maybe
get a bruise on your little ego, maybe get a bruise on your little
> > head.
> > Well I
say screw the beat list cause it ain't dying, it is already
> >
dead. You just were afraid to admit it
and this is just a good excuse
> > to go
whimpering off into a gentle good night.
> >
> > But me,
I ain't gonna let fear or ego or what you think about me or what
> > you do
or what you say about my poetry or what you sit on your ass doing
> > nails
or whatever stop this list. This is a
post to beat-l, is anybody
> > home,
or are you all gonna run and hide!
> >
> > Peace
to those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of
> > going
through all these things twice.
> >
> > Bentz,
flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I
> > don't
even have a shirt on.
> >
> > --
> > Bentz
> >
bocelts@scsn.net
> >
> >
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
> >
Genlemen,
What's so wrong
with the list at the moment? There have
been some very
interesting posts
in the last week. Yes, the volume is
down but quality
is definitly
up. I don't miss endless reps of the
same wars. A quite
weekend is not a
fatal indicator. Summer is alway's more
quiet.
Student
leave. People travel. All this is good. Ebb and flow.
Do you
recognized very
many of the unsubscribe names? Look back at any period
in the list and
you will see a constant stream of people helplessly
trying to
unsubscribe to the wrong address. So far
I would call the
experiment a
success. More light. Less heat.
And time to do something
besides work and
deal with list traffic. I just need to
feel certain
that Rinaldo
understands how to do his usual Sunday morning posts direct
to the list.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:38:02 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
>
>> So, I
got up this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about
>> heroin
in New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the
>> reply
button and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe. And I am
>> thinking
man, give me at least a little flame war.
If it wasn't for
>> David
Race, Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this
>> list
would be dead.
Since you
asked...I'm currently dividing my time between bartending school,
a shit job as a
cashier, & trying to read _The Sun Also Rises_. Maybe once
I get my
bartending diploma & finish TSAR I'll have some insightful things
to say (God, how
I hate Hemmingway!!) about TSAR & OTR, since comparisions
have been made
before. Or at least I can tell you how
to make a better
Sloe Comfortbale
Screw Up Against the Wall & Backwards...
In teh meantime,
any comments on my scholarly quest?
Wasn't there someone
here a while back
who was doing a paper comparing the two books?
Did he
ever report back
with his findings? Gotta get back to how
to make a 57'
thunderbird with
florida liscense plates (what a great name!)
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:47:05 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: white light white heat
In-Reply-To: <339AEDAE.2DA8@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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um hello
i came slinking
back with my tale between my legs and thot that i should
notify the rest
of you that i came back the addiction was too great for a
little soul to
refuse. community won over individual me thots.
seems to have
quietened d
o
w
n and comfortable
my problems are
dealt with & can reposition meself w/ rest o f you.
so i raise a
glass of dada (tastes like bl;ue
milk
dadadadadagwasofetwouuuu )for the soul. glad to back if youll
have me gain. and
so.
and a poem for
you all
(an exercise in
amputated haiku)
reading newspaper
two large drops
on page 8
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:52:52 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@polaris.mindport.net>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <339ACC15.4C3462D@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sun, 8 Jun
1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> The truth
was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to
> explode.
> In that last
hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of
> the road.
You know, I can't
really understand the words as he sings them, and I
have no lyric
sheet. Do you know the words to some of
"Series of
Dreams"?
> Bentz,
flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I
> don't even
have a shirt on.
*I* have a shirt
on, because it's too damned cold in New England yet to
sleep without
one. And this poem is NOT finished yet.
It's spring here
in Southern New England
Last week, the
hills were mossed with tree-top
Each tree-top a
lacework of delicate green
-or red; a mauve,
but alive!
: the greens set in ramdom patternlets
across the
hilltops in the lower connecticut
river valley,
when topping a
ridge
in my car:
the wind shaped
swell-wave
across the green
lacery
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:54:32 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system
In-Reply-To:
<970608122915_-1396852539@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 9:29 AM -0700
6/8/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Douglas:
> I'd like to
get on Patti's list specially if it's flaming.
Well, sorry about
this one kiddo, it appears as if we are temporarily
satiated by a
recent patti appearance (some Buddhist/Dali Lama show).
Anyway, our
flames usually revolve around whether or not one of her
geetarists is
worth his metal (in and out of the sheets).
As well, Jim
Carroll, of all
people, tends to get us rilled up over nothing.
Can't
think of any
other recent flames. But if you want to
put me on firewatch
patrol, I can
surely alert you to the rising smoke...
> I'd also
like to
> know if she
ever received my sea turtle/nest t-shirt. I was recently on the
> outer banks
with the sea turtle rescue group. "Why did go away and leave me
> in Big
Mamu" (An old 50s race music song.) Don't know why it came to my head.
Your best bet would
be to write to Patti's mother, Beverly.
The address
can be found at
http://www.oceanstar.com/patti/write.htm
and the only
occurence I have in my memory between "Big Mamu" and "sea
turtles"
involves this big whale called "shamu", but I know that's not what
yur talking
about. <<dreading the day
Microsoft installs 'telepathy' into
its
browser>>
> Charles
Plymell
cheers, Douglas
> feeding fire
through a davies screen
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:12:00 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: X
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DON'T CALL ME WHITE!
don't call me
WHITE
"tHE hISTORY oF tHE fIERCY cROSS
iS oF sCOTTISH
oRIGIN, iT wAS uTILIZED aS A sIGN oF
oPPOSITION
tO tYRANNY fROM bIG gOVERNMENT aND
oBEDIENCE tO
gOD"
don't call me
WHITE !!!
DON'T CALL
ME WHITE!!
DON'T CALL
ME WHITE!!
when i was AC
when i was YOUNG
Yeeaaaaahh
DON'T CALL
ME WHITE!!
DON'T CALL
ME WHITE!!
no!! no!!
NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:24:58 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Allah Flood
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Rivers a monster
and eim allah
flood
cuz eye
gotta move em
back into dem
mountains
witta wash closth
and a splish
splosh
and eim drippin
all de drops
before de drops
shu be dropped
and de drops dont
drop
when eye hav tuh
stop
d
r
o
p
drip dammit drip.
James M.
June 8, 97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 16:33:46 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Eliot
& Ginsberg
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> R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
> > TS Eliot is the best this Century. I mean the Allman Brothers named
> > the
album that they dedicated to Duane EAT A PEACH.
> >
> > And indeed there will be time
> > To
wonder, 'Do I dare?' and, 'Do I dare?'
> > Time to
turn back and descend the stair,
> > With a
bald spot in the middle of my hair --
> > (They
will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!')
> > My
morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
> > My
necktie rich and modest, but asserted with a simple pin --
> > (They
will say: 'But how his arms and legs are thin!')
> > Do I
dare
> > Disturb
the universe?
> > In a
minute there is time
> > For
decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
> >
> > For I have known them all already, known
them all --
> > Have
known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
> > I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons;
> > I know
the voices dying with a dying fall
> > Beneath
the music from a farther room,
> > So how should I presume?
> >
> >
............
> >
> > I am no
prophet -- and here's no great matter;
> > I have
seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
> > And I
have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
> > And in
short, I was afraid.
> >
> >
...........................
> >
> > I grow old...I grow old...
> > I shall
wear the bottom of my trousers rolled.
> >
> > Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
> >
> >
.........................
> >
> > We have
lingered in the chambers of the sea
> > By
sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
> > Till
human voices wake us, and we drown.
> >
> >
>From the Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, 1917
> > T.S.
Eliot
> >
> > My they
will say
> >
> > --
> > Bentz
> >
bocelts@scsn.net
> >
> >
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
I want to redelve
into the beat poetry vs Eliot (Pound, Williams) thread
that began a
couple of weeks ago under the guise of "how annoying some of
these whiny
people are."
I would never
infer Eliot, Pound and Williams were not great poets. My
point is that
Allen Ginsberg took in what they wrote and then in his own
work went beyond
them. When I read the The Love Song of
J. Alfred
Prufrock that
Bentz quote from above, the first thing I think of is how
Eliot's thoughts
are trapped in his style, like he worked to fit his
words into a form
that appeared poetic, and how I have never read a poem
by Allen Ginsberg
where I had that thought. This week, I
was reading
Allen Verbatim,
and what do I find but an incredible roundtable
discussion of
twentieth century poetry, with questions (Q), followed by
answers from
Allen Ginsberg(AG) and Robert Duncan (RD).
The following is
directly quoted from Allen Verbatim:
Q: One thing that bothers me about contemporary
poetry, if I can go back
to Eliot, is like
he said poetry is impersonal. He didn't
mean that it's
cold or didactic,
but the primary concern of the poets is a thing of
beauty or an
artistic work...
AG: Just as I began by trying to voice my kinship
and my secret
perceptions to a
dear friend, just as I began trying to get out the raw
material of my
heart, or to get out my actual feelings, heartthrobs, I'm
not concerned
with creating a work of art, because that's only a
three-letter
word, anyway, plus the four-letter word work.
And I don't
want to predefine
it--I mean how would you go about creating a work of
art, would you go
by a set of rules or what?
Q: I'm not saying
it's a rigid form...
AG: Well, so, even to entertain the conception in
advance of creating a
work of art would
block your mind from getting at the actual heart-throb
or direct
expression of the material you started out trying to articulate
or voice. So what I do is try to forget entirely about
the world of art,
and just get
directly to the most economical--that is, the fastest, not
most
economical--the fastest and most direct expression of what it is I
got in my
heart-mind. Trusting that if my
heart-mind is shapely, the
objects or words,
the word sequences, the sentences, the line, the song
will also be
shapely. And if I can directly deal out
my feelings what
will be dealt out
could be put in a museum, 'Art,' see? In
fact that's
really what art
is I think--the stuff that later seems to be solid enough
to put in the
museum of your mind.
RD: One of the difficulties with Eliot is that
he's writing from a vast
historical
ignorance when he writes about perfection in a work of art.
Although he lived
in the thirties and forties, when great works were
being written on
art, he did not recognize that only a small segment of
mankind for a
limited period of history had this idea of a 'work of art'
and of
perfection. The Greeks had the idea of
making something, and
that's what the
word poetry comes from--making something, like God makes
Creation...
I was twenty-eight when I wrote
'Medieval Scenes' and that's the
first time I knew
what I had to do in a poem. You feel
obedience when
you've arrived
there. Eliot is deficient on a formal
level; that's why
he talks about
form. Pound actually rewrote 'The
Wasteland' and that's
why it has the
form it has. Eliot does not understand
total form. 'The
Wasteland' has
marvelous things in it, but one thing it does not have is
a feeling of
form. He flunks on the gestalt
level. Whereas 'The Cantos'
are ever-present
form. Eliot had to immitate form. He immitates
Beethoven. Beethoven wasn't imitating a form; he was in
form. This is
Eliot's weakness.
AG: Eliot's constantly adapting somebody else's
form.
RD: He goes to Poe and sounds like Poe, but when
Poe was writing even he
had form. Although Poe had a very grotesque thing; he
kept thinking that
his convention
was his form. But we all feel the form
struggling
underneath.
Ok all, got any
thoughts about any of this?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:10:35 +0100
Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: re Eliot.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
This is from
memory & so may be inaccurate :
"Eyes I dare
not meet
in death's dream kingdom
these do not appear :
there, the eyes are
sunlight on a broken column
there, is a tree swinging
and voices are
in the wind's singing
more distant and more solemn
than a fading star
Let me be no nearer
in death's dream kingdom
let me also wear
such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
standing in a field
behaving as the wind behaves ;
no nearer
Not that final meeting
in the twilight kingdom"
- that's part two
of The Hollow Men. See also :
"Where will
the word be found, where will the word
Resound ? Not here ; there is not enough
silence
Not on the sea, or on the islands, not
on the mainland, in the desert or the rainland
For those who walk in darkness
Both in the daytime and the nighttime..."
- from Ash
Wednesday. Myself, I'm not sure if I prefer Eliot to Ginsberg
or not. I think I
might. He didn't write much great stuff - in fact, you
could cut it down
to Love Song of JAP (+ a couple of others from that
period),
Wasteland, Hollow Men, Ash Wednesday, Four Quartets - but I'd
call that a
legacy almost unlike any other. I do have more to say on this
subject, but
unfortunately I'm having a little difficulty marshalling my
thoughts just now
so I'll have to come back to it later...
bear with me,
Olly.
k
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:54:07 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: OTR vs. TSAR
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Alright. Being a bit.
Of a Hemingway fan, I'd have to say that _On the
Road_ would
probably be better compared with _A Moveable Feast_. If you
don't like _The
Sun Also Rises_ (which is hard for me to fathom) and you
like the Beats, a
good intro to my man Ernest is probably the aforementioned
book. If you wanna compare first novels, I think
that most critics would
probably put TSAR
before _The Town and the City_, but since I like both
authors I
probably wouldn't judge them by the same standards. To be Frank
(another guy who
you can burn and curse to your heart's con tent) I think
Kerouac was a
little more thematically redundant in his novels than
Hemingway was in
his. How come no one ever mentions
_Lonesome Traveller_?
Is it because
Kerouac sorta sums up his entire life and philosophy and
there's little
need to read his other books other than for aesthetic
pleasure? After I read LT, I started reading _Desolation
Angels_ but I
quickly got tired
of it because I felt like I'd read it all before. Frank,
by the way, is
subject to frequent second thoughts.
James M. (not Frank)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:08:08 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Since you
asked...I'm currently dividing my time between bartending school,
>a shit job as
a cashier, & trying to read _The Sun Also Rises_. Maybe once
>I get my
bartending diploma & finish TSAR I'll have some insightful things
>to say (God,
how I hate Hemmingway!!) about TSAR & OTR, since comparisions
>have been
made before. Or at least I can tell you
how to make a better
>Sloe
Comfortbale Screw Up Against the Wall & Backwards...
>
>In teh
meantime, any comments on my scholarly quest?
Wasn't there someone
>here a while
back who was doing a paper comparing the two books? Did he
>ever report
back with his findings? Gotta get back
to how to make a 57'
>thunderbird
with florida liscense plates (what a great name!)
>
>Diane.
Diane,
twas i who was writing the paper
comparing those two great novels
(unlike you, i
LOVE Papa).
I did post my
paper to the list and did get some helpful comments. If you'd
like, I could
repost the paper to you (and/or the list).
I have one
question for you
though: If you really hate hemingway,
then why are you
reading
TSAR? Maybe it's required for the
bartending diploma? Actually, I
can't think of
any other book that would be a better read for a bartender.
Would love to
hear your comments regarding the two novels.
i hope you enjoy
the rest of that
novel.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:10:08 +0200
Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Daniel Brattemark
<danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: X
MIME-Version: 1.0
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7bit
Rinaldo Rasa
wrote:
>
> DON'T CALL ME WHITE!
>
> don't call me
>
> WHITE
>
> "tHE hISTORY oF tHE fIERCY cROSS
iS oF sCOTTISH
> oRIGIN, iT wAS uTILIZED aS A sIGN oF
oPPOSITION
> tO tYRANNY fROM bIG gOVERNMENT aND
oBEDIENCE tO
> gOD"
>
> don't call me
>
> WHITE !!!
>
> DON'T CALL
> ME WHITE!!
>
> DON'T CALL
> ME WHITE!!
> when i was AC
>
> when i was YOUNG
>
> Yeeaaaaahh
> DON'T CALL
> ME WHITE!!
>
> DON'T CALL
> ME WHITE!!
>
> no!! no!!
NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
sorry this has no
beat connection.
it's just that i
love a song called "don't call me white"
"the
connotations wearing my nerves thin
could it be
semantics generating the mess we're in?
i understand that
language breeds stereotype
but what's the
explanation for the malice for the spite?"
in case you
wonder it's by NOFX
-daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:53:14 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: sold my soul
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
parking was
harder than I thought
the endless turns
and variable stop lights
bags and bags and
jutting and crossing
the passengers
have a mind of their own
followed the tall
brunette into starbucks
and ordered the
same as she
the blueberry
muffin stained my fingers
as I whet my
appetite staring at crowds
of pigeons and
high heeled shoes
clackety clackety
clak
'I stayed on the
scene, huh, like a sex machine'
thinking of
biological determinism, darwin,
and the need to
be clean... shaven
annoying these
habits the lady behind the counter
the lady behind
the counter, she took my name
I wonder
sometimes if I've sold my soul
just wanted a cut
of hair, a locket to keep
a single blood
drop to roll around my fingers
this sweet, oh to
trim, and thighs, and peasant thoughts
'I just want to
look good for you baby
show you what you
do for me'
bought the latest
playboy, oh what a cad!
haven't had the
courage to open it yet
thinking of On
The Road and K and how sex
was like
religion, adolescent fantasies
children by the
side of the road
hurricanes of
thought and presence
killers of
normalacy, drunken and driven
by by by by
I wonder
sometimes if I've sold my soul
<<adding to
the pandemonium>> Douglas
> feeding fire
through a davies screen
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:50:29 -0500
Reply-To: thereman@IX.NETCOM.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Josh Meyer
<thereman@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: UPON MY DEADBED
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello BEAT-L
readers... Here is a poem I wrote today... read it or delete it...
I just want to feel like I'm
contributing to
this list in SOME sort of way... yours-
JOSH.
UPON MY DEADBED
Summer ain't free
in these parts of your mind
no sirree
we're asking for
a big toll on this stretch of the road
your time will be
wasted
all love will be
lost
you will grow
ugly
bogged down by
the company that puts on the show
we stop artistic
expression
smashing
creativity to a nil
no nipple fishing
or roller
coasting today, young man
just the heat
coming from your head as you lay upon the mattress
sucking in the
boredom
WELL, keep
sucking BOY!
It will only get
worse
as time passes,
your bags will grow
exponentially
mounting
themselves upon the highest ranking lowpoint in all of Hades
climbing lower
and lower
deeper and
stinkier into the marsh of torpor
Smell that
fishy-fish stank that rises
from your pits
THAT is your
cancer
and it will NOT
go away
Sucking out the
sticky juice only makes it worse
cause then the
fungus has found Mr. Mouth and all of his lonely counterparts
and then it's the
gossip queen fiasco
with excrement
flying at double speed
you are no use
moving
you are no use
sitting
so hurry up
already
and
do
your
business
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:25:25 -0500
Reply-To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "E.j.C."
<beat@SKY.NET>
Subject: Women of the Beat Generation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
For those of you
who have been attending festivals and parades this
weekend, you
might be interested in this. I just discovered in the
May/June issue of
Girlfriends a _short_ review of Knight's book, Women of
the Beat
Generation: the Writers, Artists, and Muses at the Heart of a
Revolution. It
was a nice surprise.
-j-EnnifEr c.
If anyone was at
Bartle Hall today, I was the asian grrl standing next to
the queen in
clear plastic and a parasol.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:34:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: wisdoms from wise creators
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"The
important thing about art is that it makes people aware of what they
know but
don't know that
they know ... This breakthrough results in a permanent
expansion of
consciousness."wsb
"I CALL FOR
A THEATRE IN WHICH THE ACTORS
ARE LIKE VICTIMS
BURNING AT THE STAKE,
SIGNALLING
THROUGH THE FLAMES." - Antonin Artaud
"We dream of
a world in which nature is seen as alive, in which the
imagination
permeates all reality, in which animals and plants are seen a=
s a
part of the
living texture, the living components,the cells in the life o=
f
Gaia and Gaia in
the life of the cosmos as a whole." - Rupert Sheldrake
John Cage,
interviewed in San Francisco, discusses his art, music and
views on the
human condition. Following his growing interest in Eastern
philosophies, he
began integrating the element of chance into his work.
At his home in
Brussels, Ilya Prigogine, the "poet of thermodynamics,"
speaks about his
theories which have revolutionized science. His work on
irreversible
non-linear processes that simultaneously create both order a=
nd
disorder
radically challenges our views on time and space.
Huston Smith, in
the garden of his Berkeley, California home, explains hi=
s
ideas about
"the new religion of science" and post-modernism. During fift=
een
years of teaching
religion and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute =
of
Technology,
Smith's
hypothesis was
thoroughly tested - "An epistemology that aims relentlessl=
y at
control rules out
the possibility
of transcendence."
"The flutter
of the the moth's wing can trigger the hurricane. This is no=
t a
poetic statement.
This
is the fact of
the matter within this kind of description of nature. In o=
ther
words, very small
changes create
cascades into where whole states shift and are perturbed."=
-
Terence McKenna
The Universe
isn't weirder
than we think=85
It's weirder than
we can think!
Arthur Eddington
"The most
beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the
sower of all true
art and science. Those to whom this emotion is a
stranger . . .
are as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to =
us
really exists ---
manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most
radiant beauty,
which our dull facilities can comprehend only in their mo=
st
primitive forms
--- this knowledge, this feeling, is at the centre to tru=
e
religiousness. In
this sense, and this sense only, I belong to the ranks =
of
devoutly
religious man." Albert Einstein
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:35:54 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: shortstory aka 'clones'
Man's greatest
evolutionary asset, the only thing that can save us, is
IMAGINATION.
The planet is doomed: in a fraction of a
century, Earth's population
reaches a size
that is too great for its natural resources to support.
The only abundant
source of protein is human flesh.
Trapped on Earth
like on a raft adrift at sea, humans are forced to eat their
own dead to
survive. Unless....
Meanwhile, behind the facade of a
delapidated bookstore, the Mad Outlaw
splices DNA in
his Survival Research Lab, creating fantastic hybrids from his
vast collection
of mutant genes......
We don't need sex to reproduce anymore, we
can now clone ourselves. you
can have them
make your very own clone, identical except for the time delay.
Just mail in a
piece of hair along with your $99.95, and in 9 months you can
pick up a
clone. Ah, the immortality of genes...
And now, a moment
of silence for the long-lost genes of times past. the waste
of natural
selection.
~
And all the
endangered genes. Of course, the Budget cannot provide
reservations for
all of them. Government experts decide
which ones deserve
reservations
according to Standardized Achievement Tests which they have
developed to
measure Usefulness.
Rule number one:
those in power are the only ones allowed to have more than
one identical
offspring.
This is proof of the immortality of rulers
as opposed to common people.
The rulers are not opposed to common
people. The rulers are very tolerant.
Mandatory Sterilization facilities are
built in prisons. They help
prevent the
spread of unfavorable genes. Criminals
are sentenced to MS for
committing major
crimes such as Treason. One example of
treason is
overthrowing the
government; another example is being a Communist.
Innapropriate and disruptive behavior is
also punishable by MS. Even
if you're
screaming and screaming to warn the prison guards that there's a
fire and the
whole prison will burn, they might not believe you. This is
called
"Disturbing the Piece". The
prisoner is hand- and foot-cuffed and is
dragged,
struggling, past heavy steel doors and out of the sight of other
prisoners.
Two guards walk up and down the isle,
joking about the operation under
way, conscious of
being followed by the eyes of prisoners peering through the
bars.
Suddenly they notice smoke and the
distinctive smell of burning
flesh........
At last, the Mad Outlaw creates a successful,
reproductively viable,
human being with
gills, perfectly adapted for life underwater.
Its skin is
watertight, its
toes slightly webbed, adjustments have been made to the inner
ear; yes, the
Outlaw has thought of everything. At
last, man can spill over
from the teeming
shores into the vast oceans where food abounds; and the
human race will
not dissappear forever.
Eager to share his discoveries with the
government and prove once and
for all that
mutation will save us, the Mad Outlaw writes a letter to the
editor of the
Science Times. "Instant Evolution", the letter says,"is the
only way to buy
us more time on this planet until we can find another one to
live on, since we
have outgrown Earth and are heading for extinction".
The next day, the CIA, the FBI, the DEA,
the NYSE, the SASE, the LAPD,
and the PTA
stormed into the bookstore, demolishing it and firing automatic
weapons in every
direction. They pounced on the Outlaw,
and, shrieking like
harpies,
scratched at him and tore at him with their nails and teeth, until
he lay in a
bloody heap on the floor. All this in
the name of Ethics. "How
could he have
escaped our conditioning?", they asked.
"Everyone knows that
mutation is
Bad".
So then, they all formed an umbrella organization
called the
Anti-Evolution
League (AEVL). They just weren't
comfortable with the idea of
such drastic
change, even if it was necessary to the survival of the Species.
"We have the right to remain the most
evolved!" was their rallying cry. "Hom
o Sapiens is the
Best! Kill all the rest!".
And, wanting to remain Immortal, they
closed their eyes to the evidence
of Time.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:34:51 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marioka7@aol.com
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-07 20:45:48 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> yeh a stong cup of coffee, thats the ticket.
>
> poem
> bill
> william walks, denim swishing,
> cat hairs cling to his cuffs,
> throwing globules at the goldfish,
> straight at them, like a first pitch of
baseball season.
>
> quietly,
slowly, reaches wrinkled fingers into water,
> hand closes
around squirming wet body, pulls it out of tank
> orange
glistening of scales, dripping water from pulsing mouth,
> sucking,
sucking the fatal and empty air.
> Eyes wide
with panic. Bill lowers the goldfish,
opening his hand presents it
> on his palm
to his smiling cat. We know who's master
of the house.
>
> What did the lesbian frog say to the other
lesbian frog,
> hey , you really do taste like chicken,
> Lesbian frog answers,
> and how do you know what chicken tasts like?
>
> tweak that, and write back
>
> patricia and david
> >>
> mmm-mmm
good!
> frog-lickin'
> toad-suckin'
>
chicken-actin'
> girl-likin'
>
crap-shootin'
> LESBO!!!!
>
finger-stickin' good!!
>
> Hmm...maybe
i AM a little tweaked. i decided not to
post stuff on the list
> anymore
because i get a lot of negative feed-back.
Who would have thought
> people who
like the beats could be so squeamish?
patricia goes
go go for it
girlfriend, i said, hell she knows him.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:47:36 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
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CVEditions@aol.com
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-08 15:49:54 EDT, you write:
>
> << Ok
all, got any thoughts about any of this? >>
> Oh God! I
hadn't thought about the old classic/romantic academic discourse in
> years..hmm
where to start. well Duncun sounded credible in his analysis. Did
> you mean to
imply that Williams is great or not. I tried to read him in the
> 50's when he
was popular in academic canons. I thought he was very mediocre,
> not half as
good as many who erite me today. Allen tried to tell me about his
> foot thing.
I could never get it. Heart-mind-foot?
Nothing ever knopcked the
> shit out of
me, but it can happen, I'm sure. Oh what was that poetry stuff
> again.
Someone slupping baggage to a museum, or that art, so rare a thing a
> liqiud
abouve and beyond the mind. Maybe its piss? Try the Toxic hotel zone
> Beneath the
Empire of the Birds by Carl Watson just sent to me . Who has
> those round
tables and what does it mean today? Antiques?
> Charles
Plymell
Antiques,
exactly, all except for Ginsberg. It all
began when I brought
up my belief that
Allen Ginsberg was the greatest poet of this century.
Eliot, Williams,
and Pound were all mentioned as heavy contenders for
that
description. I think that all fall
short. Mediocre? Maybe. Too
concerned with
style, I think. Take something like
pissing as a perfect
example. Eliot would try to make a work of art about
pissing. Williams
would rhymically
measure out his words about pissing.
Ginsberg would
piss. And show you how purely inspirational a
bodily function can be.
And then to
really get off course here, you would have someone like Joyce
who would write about
pissing in 600 pages, so circularly that, without
great attention,
you would never know he had pissed, but you would know
that piss was the
essential steam connecting the consciousness of all
mankind.
What's the Toxic
Hotel Zone Beneath the Empire of the Birds?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:55:50 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Maya Gorton
wrote:
> "The
flutter of the the moth's wing can trigger the hurricane. This is
> not a
> poetic
statement. This
> is the fact
of the matter within this kind of description of nature.
> In other
> words, very
small
> changes
create cascades into where whole states shift and are
>
perturbed." -
> Terence
McKenna
>
Did anyone else notice how the day of the
criminal verdict in the OJ
Simpson trial,
that a hurricane was dying out in the gulf of Mexico.
When the verdict
was announced and all the talk show hosts and guests
started venting
all of their anger that the hurricane at that very
moment began to
feed on the anger and built up speed and crashed into
the US doing
major destruction. If people would have
loved instead,
then we would
have seen the hurricane die a peaceful death.
I wonder if
the government is
studying this and learning how to
harness this
energy. If it is, it will not be used for good.
Peace, and let us
pray for it hard, as if our very souls depend upon it,
because they do.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:06:37 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: white light white heat
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Derek A. Beaulieu
wrote:
>
> um hello
> i came
slinking back with my tale between my legs and thot that i should
> notify the
rest of you that i came back the addiction was too great for a
> little soul
to refuse. community won over individual me thots.
> seems to
have quietened d
> o
> w
> n and comfortable
> my problems
are dealt with & can reposition meself w/ rest o f you.
> so i raise a
glass of dada (tastes like bl;ue
> milk
dadadadadagwasofetwouuuu )for the soul. glad to back if youll
> have me
gain. and so.
> and a poem
for you all
> (an exercise
in amputated haiku)
>
> reading
newspaper
> two large
drops
> on page 8
>
> derek
Derek,
Good to have you back. It's sort of nice here again, tho some would
disagree.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:19:06 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot
& Ginsberg
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> >
> TS Eliot is the best this
Century. I mean the Allman Brothers
named
> > >
the album that they dedicated to Duane EAT A PEACH.
> > >
> >
> And indeed there will be time
> > > To
wonder, 'Do I dare?' and, 'Do I dare?'
> > >
Time to turn back and descend the stair,
> > >
With a bald spot in the middle of my hair --
> > >
(They will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!')
> > > My
morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
> > > My
necktie rich and modest, but asserted with a simple pin --
> > >
(They will say: 'But how his arms and legs are thin!')
> > > Do
I dare
> > >
Disturb the universe?
> > > In
a minute there is time
> > >
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
> > >
> >
> For I have known them all
already, known them all --
> > >
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
> > > I
have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
> > > I
know the voices dying with a dying fall
> > >
Beneath the music from a farther room,
> >
> So how should I presume?
> > >
> > >
............
> > >
> > > I
am no prophet -- and here's no great matter;
> > > I
have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
> > >
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
> > >
And in short, I was afraid.
> > >
> > >
...........................
> > >
> >
> I grow old...I grow old...
> > > I
shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled.
> > >
> >
> Shall I part my hair
behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
> > >
> > >
.........................
> > >
> > > We
have lingered in the chambers of the sea
> > > By
sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
> > >
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
> > >
> > >
>From the Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, 1917
> > >
T.S. Eliot
> > >
> > > My
they will say
> > >
> > > --
> > >
Bentz
> > >
bocelts@scsn.net
> > >
> > >
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
> >
> > --
> > Bentz
> >
bocelts@scsn.net
> >
> >
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
> I want to
redelve into the beat poetry vs Eliot (Pound, Williams) thread
> that began a
couple of weeks ago under the guise of "how annoying some of
> these whiny
people are."
>
> I would
never infer Eliot, Pound and Williams were not great poets. My
> point is
that Allen Ginsberg took in what they wrote and then in his own
> work went
beyond them. When I read the The Love
Song of J. Alfred
> Prufrock
that Bentz quote from above, the first thing I think of is how
> Eliot's
thoughts are trapped in his style, like he worked to fit his
> words into a
form that appeared poetic, and how I have never read a poem
> by Allen
Ginsberg where I had that thought. This
week, I was reading
> Allen
Verbatim, and what do I find but an incredible roundtable
> discussion
of twentieth century poetry, with questions (Q), followed by
> answers from
Allen Ginsberg(AG) and Robert Duncan (RD).
>
> The
following is directly quoted from Allen Verbatim:
>
> Q: One thing that bothers me about contemporary
poetry, if I can go back
> to Eliot, is
like he said poetry is impersonal. He
didn't mean that it's
> cold or
didactic, but the primary concern of the poets is a thing of
> beauty or an
artistic work...
>
> AG: Just as I began by trying to voice my kinship
and my secret
> perceptions
to a dear friend, just as I began trying to get out the raw
> material of
my heart, or to get out my actual feelings, heartthrobs, I'm
> not
concerned with creating a work of art, because that's only a
> three-letter
word, anyway, plus the four-letter word work.
And I don't
> want to
predefine it--I mean how would you go about creating a work of
> art, would
you go by a set of rules or what?
>
> Q: I'm not
saying it's a rigid form...
>
> AG: Well, so, even to entertain the conception in
advance of creating a
> work of art
would block your mind from getting at the actual heart-throb
> or direct
expression of the material you started out trying to articulate
> or
voice. So what I do is try to forget
entirely about the world of art,
> and just get
directly to the most economical--that is, the fastest, not
> most
economical--the fastest and most direct expression of what it is I
> got in my
heart-mind. Trusting that if my
heart-mind is shapely, the
> objects or
words, the word sequences, the sentences, the line, the song
> will also be
shapely. And if I can directly deal out
my feelings what
> will be
dealt out could be put in a museum, 'Art,' see?
In fact that's
> really what
art is I think--the stuff that later seems to be solid enough
> to put in
the museum of your mind.
>
> RD: One of the difficulties with Eliot is that
he's writing from a vast
> historical
ignorance when he writes about perfection in a work of art.
> Although he
lived in the thirties and forties, when great works were
> being
written on art, he did not recognize that only a small segment of
> mankind for
a limited period of history had this idea of a 'work of art'
> and of
perfection. The Greeks had the idea of
making something, and
> that's what
the word poetry comes from--making something, like God makes
> Creation...
> I was twenty-eight when I wrote
'Medieval Scenes' and that's the
> first time I
knew what I had to do in a poem. You
feel obedience when
> you've
arrived there. Eliot is deficient on a
formal level; that's why
> he talks
about form. Pound actually rewrote 'The
Wasteland' and that's
> why it has
the form it has. Eliot does not
understand total form. 'The
> Wasteland'
has marvelous things in it, but one thing it does not have is
> a feeling of
form. He flunks on the gestalt
level. Whereas 'The Cantos'
> are
ever-present form. Eliot had to immitate
form. He immitates
>
Beethoven. Beethoven wasn't imitating a
form; he was in form. This is
> Eliot's
weakness.
>
> AG: Eliot's constantly adapting somebody else's
form.
>
> RD: He goes to Poe and sounds like Poe, but when
Poe was writing even he
> had
form. Although Poe had a very grotesque
thing; he kept thinking that
> his
convention was his form. But we all feel
the form struggling
> underneath.
>
> Ok all, got
any thoughts about any of this?
> DC
Diane,
Thanks for the
nice quote from Allan Verbatim. I think
that the quote
along with your
observation goes directly to why Pound and Williams were
so much more
important as an influence on our writers.
Not that Eliot
didn't write some
wonderful poems, but he is much more limited, irony
becomes the only
thing of importance, and all of us must have wondered
what the early
Eliot poems would have been like without Pound's
revisions. Eliot's poetry is so withdrawn, so obsessed with limits.
It's not far
fetched to see poetry in the second half of the century
trying to escape
from Eliot and return to roots in Pound.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:23:23 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators
In-Reply-To: <339B70B5.4C506609@scsn.net>
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At 7:55 PM -0700
6/8/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Peace, and
let us pray for it hard, as if our very souls depend upon it,
> because they
do.
here's to praying
that ben and jerry's comes up with a Kokonut Kerouac ice
cream!
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
Douglas <<mmmm, coconut>>
> feeding fire
through a davies screen
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:55:07 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Summer of love
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CALIFORNIA
DREAMING
(summer of love,
30th anniversary poem: 1967-'97)
Mangled names
roll
over & over
trivial mind-
scapes
The initiates
of water &
sun
learning to
forget
how too forget
because nothing
is just that
anyway
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 00:57:31 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
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From: Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
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quoted-printable
Hello all. I thought, what the hell, the list is getting
slow so i thought
i'd post the
paper that i wrote for my ind. study on the beats. Would love
to hear
comments/criticizms from you all. i
think this paper will never
really be
finished, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
a bunch!
Derek, it's great
to see you back!
Howard, I got the
Cd, but i lost your address, please email me so i can send
you my
comments. =20
as ever,
matt =20
Finding
America=92s Beat
A Personal Essay=20
by Matthew S.
Sackmann
=20
When I started this paper, it was
intended to be an objective piece
discussing the
Beats and their respective relations with America. Little
did I know that
this was an impossible task. To write an
objective piece on
America and on
the Beats is to lose the true spirit of both of these ideas.
At first, I
wanted to keep my own memories of America out of this; I wanted
to keep the
=93I=94 out of this, as any serious writer does, but I could not=
do
that to America
nor to myself because, for me, America is a mix of my
memories and
every other American=92s memories. If
these are separated, you
are taking the
very essence of America out of the paper.
So what began as
an objective,
impersonal paper has become a personal poem for this country.
It=92s become a
Call to Arms for Americans to stand up and acknowledge the
corruption that
America has undergone at the hands of the evil, mechanistic,
materialistic
Moloch America. Once again a time has
come for Americans to
fight for
freedom, but now the enemy is within. So
what follows may be
regarded as a
song:=20
A song of America
A song by America
A song for America.
=93I wonder what
the poor people are doing.=94
The sound of my
father=92s voice would echo from the cabin of the Winnebago
during those
wonderful childhood voyages across this great nation. To me,
that was the most
beautiful statement I=92ve ever heard.
When I heard that=
I
knew everything
was going to be okay. That statement
brings tears to my
eyes now. At twenty years old the time for family
vacations is long over,
but my time on
the road is really just beginning. I was
raised in a poor
family that had
to scrimp just to save enough money to hit the road for a
couple of weeks
every year. We had no luxuries on
vacations either. Never
once did we take
an airplane anywhere, we always slept in the camper or in
the VW bus, it
was very rare for my parents to buy us gift-shop presents,
and we never ate
out, always eating homemade sandwiches, but in my mind, in
our minds, we were
the richest people in America. Not once
did I feel like
a tourist in
America; wherever I went, I was a native. =20
I was brought up on the road. Well, not really, but all of my childhood
memories seem to
revolve around family vacations. Everyone
else=92s=
memories
revolve around
their homes, but not mine. At last count
I=92ve been to
forty-seven of
our wonderful fifty states. I=92ve
really seen this
country=97the
good and the bad. My relationship with
America is a love/hate
relationship. I just wish I had really appreciated the
vacations more.
There was so much
to learn. America had so much to tell
me. But now my
ears are open and
I=92m ready to listen to her song. I
really think the=
road
is in my soul=97I
get antsy when I stay in one place too long.
That=92s my=
big
problem with
college. It was so easy to take weeks
off in elementary school
to go find
America; sometimes really nice teachers, really good teachers,
wouldn=92t even
have me make up work, instead they=92d have me write about=
my
experiences on
the road. But now--yuck--most teachers
in college are
unwilling to bend
the rules, and so I=92m left with a feeling of=
imprisonment.
That=92s where my
boy Jack comes in the picture. Without
Jack Kerouac I=
would
have dropped out
of college a long time ago. =20
You might say=97=93What? Jack Kerouac kept you in college? I thought them
Beat people make
all kids want to drop out.=94 Nope, not
me. When I=92m=
not
physically on the
road my soul can always escape with Jack and Neal.
=93America, I=92ve given you all and
now I=92m nothing=94 (Howl 32). This=
is
exactly how I
feel sometimes, but it isn=92t really =93nothing,=94 my self=
becomes
nothing because I
become America. There=92s something
about many places in
America that make
you lose yourself. Down here in New
Orleans, the humidity
blends into your
skin and you can no longer feel a separation between
yourself and your
environment. You just blend into the
air. And places
like the Grand
Canyon, Mesa Verde, Yellowstone, and others=97places where
nature is so
sublime and magnificent that you lose all feeling of your small
body and you
become the landscape. One must put
everything they have into
America. The result is that outsiders may think you
are nothing, but
really=97=93It
occurs to me that I am America.=94
There is a strange duality in America
between the native and the
frontiersman=97we
need both. A native who is always home
and a frontiersman
who is always
looking for a new home. We must
reconcile these two aspects
of America. This is what the beats did=97this is what I
do. We must have=
the
frontier spirit
and search for America, but at the same time we must also
realize that the
real America is found in the searching.
The Great Spirit
of the Native
Americans seems to be nothing more than America herself, and
Gary Snyder and I
believe that we are all Native Americans, we just need to
open up to the
native within us all.
I remember driving through Idaho,
following a river weaving through the
American hills on
little Highway 12. It was the same trail
that Lewis and
Clark took when
they first discovered America and there I was rediscovering
America.
An America that has forsaken its
national bird=97its national symbol. The
American Eagle,
so rare a sight, but if you ever see it your faith in
America will be
restored. The American Eagle that must
=93really spread its
wings and
straighten up and fly right=94 (Coney Island 49). The eagle now
only found in
Alaska or=20
maybe, if you=92re lucky, on the sides of
semis racing across the country.
The first time I
ever saw an uncaged Bald Eagle, I knew that I =93must be
entering the real
America, all that=92s left of the original America=94 (My
Life). My journal contains numerous references to
the American Eagle: =93An=
d
the Eagle is so
gorgeous and wonderful when it flies & peaceful when it
soars &
strong and mighty looking when it=92s perched & it=92s no wonder=
that
it=92s our
national bird. If only more people could
see and remember this.=
=94
An America whose duality is further
emphasized by its national river=97the
Mighty Muddy
Mississippi. East versus West. The West symbolizing
everything
beautiful in America. The constant race
against the sun in an
attempt to find a
world uncorrupted by wealth and free from time unlike the
East.
An America whose beautiful history is
destroyed by classrooms and boring
teachers. America, in all her glory, is our only real
classroom; when will
we get that
through our thick skulls. An America who
loves field trips
across her
body. So many kids skipping classes
because they really want to
learn=97really
want to see=97really want to hear. She
has so much potential
still=97even with
so much of her stripped away and bionic, the potential is
still there.
America, there is still good in you, I
can feel it, Moloch hasn=92t driven=
it
from you
fully. America, you have become Darth
Vader. You are more machine
now than
human. It is time to throw Moloch down
the shaft and take your
place as our
mother once again.
An America that nourished, and poisoned
my idols. America, you are my=
idol.
Jack=92s dead. Is it true what Corso says, did you force him
to drink,
America? (Corso
132). You tore him apart, America, you
and your
schizophrenia,
appearing beautiful one day and ugly the next.
Jack could
not keep up with
your facades, but that didn=92t keep him from loving you.
Neal=92s dead. The =93wild yea-saying ouburst of American
joy,=94 who was=
just
driven too fast
in ecstasy by America and ran out of gas (On The Road 10).
Now Allen. I thought he hated you most, America, I was
wrong=97He loved=
you
despite your
incessant coughing under the covers at night (Howl 20).
America whose ideas are perfect, but
actuality destroys our perfect
imagination. Just look at the Declaration of
Independence. A =93Howl=94=
for
freedom long
before the infamous poem.
America, I am waiting for you to fight
back against all this =93progress.=
=94 I
am prepared for
earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, storms, tornadoes. I=92m
ready for
anything. I=92m ready for death, if it
will make you beautiful=
again.
Boddisatva Jack who found America in
his hero=97Dean Moriarty, Cody=
Pomeray.
An America that
would take him to IT, but would also leave him lying sick in
bed (On The
Road).
Jack brought back the beauty of
America. The Beauty left unacknowledged
by
the Lost
Generation, who ran away from America.
Ernest Hemingway says,
=93Let the others
come to America who did not know that they had come too
late. Our people had seen it at its best and fought
for it when it was
worth fighting
for. Now I would go someplace else
(Green Hills of Africa
285).=94 They were deceived by your artificial face,
America, and couldn=92=
t
see the real
you. America, I don=92t agree with
Hemingway or F. Scott
Fitzgerald. I=92ve seen your =93fresh, green breast,=94
and I believe it is=
still
worth fighting
for. Fitzgerald and Papa have obviously
never been to
Alaska, or they
too would have seen this potential. As
Ken Kesey describes
Alaska in
Sailor=92s Song, =93Alaska is the end, the finale, the Last Ditch=
of
the Pioneer
Dream. From Alaska there=92s no place
left to go. . . . So it
came down to
Alaska, the Final Frontier as far as this sick old ballgame
goes. Top of the ninth . . .=94 Nothing could prepare me for my first
experience of
Alaska. I=92ve seen many beautiful
places in America, but
Alaska blew them
all away, and it was as if I was seeing Beauty for the
first time. =20
While the Lost Generation was busy
putting America down, a small voice came
in her defense
from Asheville, North Carolina. Thomas
Wolfe put America
back into
literature. Wolfe prophesized: =93I
believe we are lost in=
America,
but I do believe
we will be found . . . I think the true discovery of
America is before
us. I think the true fulfillment of our
spirit, of our
people, of our
mighty and immortal land, is yet to come.=94
Jack writes=
about
Thomas Wolfe:
=93He just woke me up to America as a poem instead of America=
=20
as a place to struggle around and sweat
in. Mainly this dark-eyed American
poet made me want
to prowl, and roam, and see the real America that was
there and that
had never been uttered.=94 And these
exact words could
perfectly
describe what Kerouac did for me.
Jack did not write his novels, America
wrote his novels. All Jack had to
do was listen and
transcribe America=92s song. Gregory
Corso knew this=
well:
=93Was not so
much our finding America as it was America finding its voice=
in
us=94 (Corso
126).
America needs to be changed from the
inside and that is a very hard
endeavor to ask
of anyone. To go inside Moloch itself
and risk losing
yourself to it in
hope that you can unplug it and open its eyes to its
beautiful natural
state. So hard to do this because it is
so much easier to
shut the door and
turn one=92s back on Moloch. So much
easier to drop out=
of
school, create
one=92s own perfect microcosmos, and be free.
But one must
sacrifice one=92s
personal freedom in order to make this country worthy of=
the
premise of its
Declaration. Jack Kerouac could not do
this. He could not
live inside
Moloch and help change it. So he escaped
on the road and in the
mountains, but he
could not run away forever, and, face to face with Moloch
America, he
resorted to the bottle.
Allen Ginsberg really helped change
Moloch. He worked within the
institution,
trying to disable the institution rather than running from it.
While Jack sings
the song of America, Allen fights for America against the
evil mechanistic
Moloch. We need both of these people to
save America: one
to show how
beautiful our country is and that it is worth fighting for, and
the other to
fight for it and make this dream a reality.
Douglas Brinkley has definitely taken
Ginsberg=92s side. He is changing
America by
immersing himself in the Moloch that has darkened higher
education, and he
is trying to show us how to discover America, how to
discover freedom:
=93No matter how hard a teacher tries, freedom--to be=
one=92s
own master, total
and absolute--can not be taught in a classroom.
And so we
take to the open
road=94 (Brinkley 502). He describes his
profession as=
being
full of
=93cynicism and narrowness,=94 but he doesn=92t run from this,=
instead he=20
attempts to destroy it by living within it
with out cynicism or narrowness.
He believes that
=93If we put our collective energy and capital and faith
behind our
schools, we might get them=97and America=97back on track=94=
(Brinkley
xv). Through his Majic Bus classes students begin
to really discover the
America in
themselves and the America on the road.
Sometimes I think it would be so much
easier to turn my back and drop out
of school and
become a bum and wander around this country, but the chances
of really being
able to put this country back on track by doing that seem
rather slim so I
am toughing it out, and I am actually able to remain happy
despite all the
stupid classes I=92m required to take.
Because I know that=
I
can do something
for this country, I can help free all these Americans
trapped in
Moloch=92s jaws. I don=92t know what
I=92d do if I didn=92t have=
my
regular dose of
Kerouac to keep me sane . . . or insane . . . or whatever .
. . but
definitely free.
=93Freedom=92s just another name for
nothing left to lose,=94 sings Janis=
Joplin.
Rock and Roll was
born in the pages of the Beat Generation.
One can see the
similarities
between the above quote and Jack Kerouac=92s =93Everything=
belongs
to me because I
am poor=94 (Visions of Cody 33).
If only we had people with the guts to
really get into the American
government and
change it. The government is indeed the
scariest place for
free American=92s
to venture. It is so anti-America, but
it is there where
this country can
really be changed. We need people like
Jack and Bobby
Kennedy. People really dedicated to making America
live up to Thomas
Jefferson=92s
great expectations. I think Bill Clinton
is a step in the=
right
direction. Although we always wish that the government
would be changed
drastically, we
must understand that this is impossible, and the only way to
change America is
to go step by step as President Clinton is doing.
William S. Burroughs says, =93Now that
America has lost the Russians as an
enemy, I don=92t
know what we=92ll do. Without enemies,
nations can=92t=
exist=94
(Brinkley
209). The great WSB is wrong here;
America does have an enemy.
This enemy stares
at us when we look in the mirror. This
enemy is the
mirror itself and
Moloch is just a hideous funhouse reflection of America.
We must look in
the mirror and=20
realize that we are seeing the made-up
America, the fake America. An
America smeared
with make-up, covered with clothes. We
must get the courage
to wipe off this
fake face and take off this fake body and go out and really
face the world in
all our natural glory: =93America, when
will you be
angelic? When will you take off your clothes?=94 (Howl
31). And that
=93strange
American iron=94 that attempts to =93straighten and quell the=
long
wavering spermy
disorderliness of the boy=94 (Visions of Cody 48-9). It=92s
high time that we
peel off these pressed clothes.
And how true was it when I told my
brother: =93The Real America can only be
seen while
you=92re moving.=94 But it was only
until our hitch-hiking
experiences that
I realized how true it was. How beautiful a memory when my
brother finally
told me that he understood this philosophy on the back of a
pick-up while we
watched the sunset=92s dying light dancing on the mountains
behind us. America is always changing, because time is
always changing, so,
therefore we must
run to grasp America. America is the
=93IT=94 that Sal=
and
Dean were chasing
throughout On the Road. Only catchable
when moving, but
at the same time
it is always the same America, always the same IT. It only
appears different
because our senses are trapped in a temporal world. By
discovering
America, we transcend time into a world of pure imagination that
is so much more
perfect than the actual world ever was, but hopefully
someday, the
reality will be able to match our dreams.
=93There is no truth
but in
transit,=94 Emerson said.
It is time for Americans to
listen. America has been silent for all
these
years, but now
she has something to say. All these
people bragging about
how much money
they make. It=92s time for America to
shut these people up.
It=92s time to
listen to me because America wants me to tell you her story.
She wants me to
open your ears.
The title page to Jack Kerouac=92s
Visions of Cody reads: =93Dedicated to
America, whatever
that is.=94 Such a simple yet beautiful
description of
America. Jack then proceeds to find America in the
novel and he finds Cody
and he realizes
that you can=92t separate the Americans from their America.
The inner and
outer worlds are both important. Jack
realizes that the Real
America, the Red
Brick-Wall America, is hidden=20
behind the Red Neon Moloch America. And now, =93it=92s infinitely bleaker=
than
ever=94 (Visions
of Cody 82). The Real America =93hid
behind the red neons=
of
our frontward
noticeable desperately advertised life=94 (79).
It=92s only=
when
Jack accepts loss
forever that he is found. Found by a
=93wild sweet=
America=94
where the =93dew
is on the road again and as forever.=94
And when Cody=92s
=93American Irish
pioneer in him was mourning the loss of home, he realized=
he
never had one=94
(386). All us Americans must reach this
understanding=
before
we can ever find
America. Cody =93represents all that=92s
left of America=
=94
(342). The only thing left of worth in America are
self-believing
individuals and
Mother Nature herself. When Jack comes
to this conclusion
at the end of
Visions of Cody, he can finally say that =93the holy road is
over=94 (397).
Gregory Corso realized that we, as
American individuals have become America
herself: =93Yea
the America the America unstained and never revolutionized=
for
liberty ever in
us free, the America in us--unboundaried and unhistoried, we
the America, we
the fathers of that America, the America you [Jack Kerouac]
Johnnyappleseeded,
the America I heralded, an America not there, an America
soon to be.=94 An
America soon to be. It appears to me
that the American
Dream is really
nothing more than hope. Hope for an
actual America as
beautiful as the
America in our dreams. Allen Ginsberg
also agrees with the
belief that
personal independence is one thing to fight for in America: =93T=
he
stakes are too
great=97an America gone mad with materialism, a police-state
America, a
sexless and soulless America prepared to battle the world in
defense of a
false image of its Authority. Not the
wild and beautiful
America of the
comrades of Whitman, not the historic America of Blake and
Thoreau where the
spiritual independence of each individual was an America,
a universe, more
huge and awesome than all the abstract bureaucracies and
Authoritative
Officialdoms of the World combined.=94
I want an America that is safe for
hitch-hiking. Hitch-hiking is the
perfect way to
reinstall faith in one=92s country.
While hitch-hiking one
puts everything
out of their own hands and into the hands of America. One
relies on America
to get them where they are going. There
is nothing in the
world sadder than
watching cars pass you by as you stand on the side of the
road holding your
soul in your thumb, and=20
making eye contact with drivers who quickly
break the contact and look
away. This is what makes Big Sur so sad when Jack
reflects, =93This is the
first time I=92ve
hitch hiked in years and I soon began to see that things
have changed in
America, you can=92t get a ride anymore.=94 =20
Sometimes I wonder if there are any
remains of the Real America, of the
Kerouac
America. Sometimes I think this is just
a doomed attempt like
trying to catch
the sun, but it does not matter. The
Real America is found
only in the
process of searching for the Real America.
It is the journey
that counts, not
the destination. Even if America will
never be found again
that does not
give us reason to postpone our search.
One Saturday night
over Spring
Break, a friend and I were cruising around Panama City Beach.
There were
thousands of college students all trying to find the center of
the American
Saturday Night. Cars were bumper to
bumper, and we drove about
ten miles in two
hours before the traffic started to die down again. We had
no idea why the
traffic died, all these people had to be going somewhere.
Then--BAM--an
epiphany came up and slapped my face: The actual cruising is
itself the center
of the American Saturday Night. There is
no place to go,
but we gotsta
go. And now I know that Jack was wrong
when he wrote: =93no=
guy
whether he was a
big drinker, or big fighter or big cocksman could ever find
the center of
Saturday Night in America=94 (Visions of Cody 57).=20
Allen Ginsberg describes Visions of
Cody as =93a dirge for America, for its
heroes deaths
too, but then who could know except in the Unconscious? -- A
dirge for the
American Hope that Jack (& his hero Neal) carried so valiently
after Whitman --
An America of pioneers and generosity -- and selfish glooms
and exploitations
implicit in the pioneers=92 entry into foreign Indian and
Moose lands --
But the great betrayal of that manly America of Love was made
by the
pseudo-heroic masculines of Army and Industry and Advertising and
Construction and
Transport and toilets and Wars.=94 (Visions of Cody 430).
We must never let the silence of Moloch
take over America. An America who
wants us to
return to our childhood dreams of her, when we were young and
idealistic and
spent our time frolicking in dandelion patches.
An America
who will never
end, and despite how hard Moloch tries, her original beauty=
will=20
always be there, and there will always be
hope, because the Real American
Dream refuses to
die. This song, which was passed to me
by Whitman,
Kerouac, Wolfe,
Ginsberg, etc., will soon be passed to others, and so the
song goes on
forever. There will always be people
whose ears are sensitive
to the beauty of
America and they will hear the song swelling inside of them
and they will
know that there is nothing left to do but sing
Works Consulted
Primary Sources:
Brinkley,
Douglas. _The Majic Bus: An American
Odyssey_. New York:
Doubleday, 1993.
Burroughs,
William S. _Naked Lunch_. New York: Grove-Atlantic, 1992.
Cassady,
Neal. _The First Third_. San Fransisco: City Lights, 1971.
Corso,
Gregory. _Mindfield, New and Selected
Poems_. New York: Thunder=92s
Mouth, 1989.
Ferlinghetti,
Lawrence. _A Coney Island of the
Mind_. New York: New
Directions, 1958.
------. _These Are My Rivers: New and Selected Poems
1955-1993_. New York:
New
Directions, 1993.
Ginsberg,
Allen. _Howl and Other Poems_. San Fransisco: City Lights, 1956.
------. _Collected Poems 1947-1980_. New York: Harper & Row, 1985.
Kerouac,
Jack. _Mexico City Blues_. New York: Grove, 1959.
------. =93Is There a Beat Generation?=94 Recorded talk published as=
=93Origins
of the Beat
Generation,=94 Playboy, June 1959.
------. _Lonesome Traveler_. New York: Grove Press, 1960.
------. _Selected Letters 1940-1956_. New York: Viking Penguin, 1995.
------. _The Dharma Bums_. New York: Viking Penguin, 1971
------. _Desolation Angels_. New York: Perigee, 1978.
------. _On The Road_. New York: Viking Penguin, 1991.
------. _Big Sur_.
New York: Viking Penguin, 1992.
------. _Tristessa_.
New York: Viking Penguin, 1992.
------. _Pomes All Sizes_. San Fransisco: City Lights Books, 1992.
------. _Visions of Cody_. New York: Viking Penguin, 1993.
------. _Good Blonde & Others_. San Fransisco: Grey Fox Press, 1993.
------. _Vanity of Dulouz_. New York: Viking Penguin, 1994.
------. _The Scripture of the Golden Eternity_. San Fransisco: City
Lights, 1994.
Sackmann,
Matthew. _My Life: The Journal I Never
Kept_. Published in=
Heaven.
Snyder,
Gary. _Earth House Hold: Technical Notes
and Queries to Fellow
Dharma
Revolutionaries_. New York: New Directions, 1969.
------. _Mountains and Rivers Without End_. San Fransisco: Four Seasons
Foundation, 1996.
------. _No Nature: New and Selected Poems_. New York: Pantheon, 1992.
------. _Turtle Island_. Boston: Shambhala, 1993.
=20
Anthologies:
Charters, Ann,
ed. _The Portable Beat Reader_. New York:Viking Penguin,=
1992.
Knight, Brenda,
ed. _Women of the Beat Generation_.
Berkeley: Conari Press,
1996.
Tonkinson,
Carole, ed. _Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and
the Beat Generation_.
New York:
Riverhead Books, 1995.
Waldeman, Anne,
ed. _The Beat Book_. Boston: Shambhala, 1996.
Bibliographies:
Charters,
Ann. _Kerouac: A Biography_. San Fransisco: Straight Arrow,=
1973.
Gifford, Barry,
and Lawrence Lee. _ Jack=92s Book: An Oral Biography of Jack
Kerouac_. New York,
Penguin, 1979.
Related Texts:
Frank
Robert. _The Americans_. Introduction by Jack Kerouac. New York:
Grove, 1959.
Hunt, Tim. _Kerouac=92s Crooked Road_. Hamden, CT: Archon Books, 1981.
Weinreich,
Regina. _The Spontaneous Poetics of Jack
Kerouac_. Carbondale:
Southern
Illinois University Press, 1987.
Films:
_Pull My
Daisy_. Narrated by Jack Kerouac, with
Gregory Corso, Peter
Orlovsky , Larry
Rivers, and David Amram.
Directed by Robert Frank and
A. Leslie. Houston: Houston Museum of Art, 1958.
Audio Recordings:
_The Beat
Generation_. Santa Monica, Calif.:
Rhino/Word Beat, 1992.
Ginsberg,
Allen. _Holy Soul, Jelly Roll: Poems and
Songs 1949-1993_. Santa
Monica,
Calif.: Rhino/Word Beat, 1994.
Kerouac,
Jack. _The Jack Kerouac
Collection_. Santa Monica, Calif.:
Rhino/Word Beat,
1993.
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:11:51 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
-------------Forwarded
Message-----------------
From: Joe,
To: Beat-L, INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Date: 06/06/97 18:17
RE: BEAT-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997
-------------Forwarded
Message-----------------
From: Joe,
To: Automatic digest processor,
INTERNET:LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Date: 06/06/97 15:47
RE: BEAT-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997
Message text
written by Automatic digest processor
>listen to a
cricket
speak for two
hours
a day
until you
understand
the melody
while eating an
apple
a day
and keep those
spiritual
advisors at bay
!!!!<
this made me
smile. one of the reasons i asked for
such
an advisor is
that i hit the road (with pc) alone in september
starting in
spain. when i've worked there in the
past the mountainside
apartment is
awash at night with the sound of crickets...also
one of my
personal goals is to eat more fruit.
always putting
off such ideas
until tomorrow i decided to wait until i got to
spain where the
sun shines & fruit becomes more appealing.
could this be a
prophesy of things to come? eating
apples
to the sound of
crickets! (we don't have many crickets
in
northern uk
incidently) hope my memory serves me
well & i
will think of
david should this happen
also, as this is
a 'literature' forum, i thought some of you may
appreciate
this...
The European Union commissioners have
announced that agreement
has been reached to adopt English as the
preferred language for
European communications, rather than German, which was the
other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's
Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for
improvement and has accepted a five-year
phased plan for what
will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for
short).
In the first year, "s" will be
used instead of the soft "c".
Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this
news with joy.
Also, the hard "c will be replaced
with "k". Not only will this
klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan
have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm
in the sekond year,
when the troublesome "ph" will
be replaced by "f". This will
make words like "fotograf" 20
per sent shorter.
In the third year, publik akseptanse of
the new spelling kan be
expekted to reach the stage where more
komplikated changes are
possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of
double
letters, which have always ben a
deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horible mes
of silent "e"s in the
languag is disgrasful, and they would
go.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be
reseptiv to steps such as
replasing "th" by z" and
"w" by " v".
During ze fifz year, ze unesesary
"o" kan be dropd from vords
kontaining "ou",
and similar changes vud of kors be aplid
to ozer kombinations
of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli
sensibl riten styl. Zer
vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and
evrivun vil find it ezi
tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru.
REMEMBER THIS IS
A JOKE - DO NOT TAKE SERIOUSLY!!!!
joe
newcastleunitedkingdom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:11:54 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
-------------Forwarded
Message-----------------
From: Joe,
To: Beat-L, INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Date: 06/06/97 18:16
RE: BEAT-L Digest - 29 May 1997 to 30 May 1997
-------------Forwarded
Message-----------------
From: Joe,
To: Automatic digest processor,
INTERNET:LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Date: 06/06/97 17:33
RE: BEAT-L Digest - 29 May 1997 to 30 May 1997
>I bet we all
listen to music almost all the time.
It'd be inneresting if
people posted
their soundtracks with their posts.
(ben neil)
<
i'd die without
music.
i'm currently
listening to a band called THE verve
a couple of their
lyrics are:
"where you gonna go when the music stops
and you're left alone in your mind
well i'll be hearing music till the day i
die"
(i interpret this as the singer meaning he'll
be hearing music
in his mind till the day he dies)
"dreamt of the future woke up with a
scream i was buying
some feelings from a vending machine."
now there's a
thought!
imagine being
able to buy a bar of cadbury's dairy milk kerouac from a vending
machine. once digested you too can understand the
emotion and knowledge
of beat!
joe
newcastleunitedkingdom
actually,
thinking about it would probably be a can budweizer from a vending
machine ;-7
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 04:11:47 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
-------------Forwarded
Message-----------------
From: Joe,
To: Beat-L, INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Date: 06/06/97 18:17
RE: BEAT-L Digest - 28 May 1997 to 29 May 1997
-------------Forwarded
Message-----------------
From: Joe,
To: Automatic digest processor,
INTERNET:LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Date: 06/06/97 17:11
RE: BEAT-L Digest - 28 May 1997 to 29 May 1997
>Just tossing
out a question for discussion that seems to me is always at the
root of the
"who is beat" issue, whis IS the most enduring topic for
discussion on
this list notwithstanding the Kerouac estate issue.
Is beat a style,
not confined to a specific time, place or set of people?
OR is beat
something that is now and forever the label for the work of Jack
Kerouac, Allen
Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Gregory Corso and the rest?
Howard Park<
i'm guilty of
this 'who is beat' question too. i first
joined the list in
october
95 (and haven't
left & rejoined since!) and it wasn't too long before i asked
if bukowski (an
author i put up there with kerouac & burroughs) was beat.
needless to say
it wasn't long before i was singed (rather than flamed)
for asking such a
stupid question. this was definetly a
good thing for me
as it made me
question what beat meant to others as well as myself.
i don't think
we'll ever escape this question unless some kind soul cares
to filter the
archives and stick everyones opinion on this topic into an faq.
my (current) view
on the term beat is that it is a philosophy, a world-view,
a lifestyle, a
selfpreserving function of the brain. it
is also a label used by
people (who need
a shortcut to thinking) in order to conceptualise a group of
writers, poets,
drug takers, outlaws and travellers. for
me it is all of these
and more.
to steal from
william burroughs i'll offer the following for anyone reading:
1. you have to
first agree with people how you want to use the word.
2. a word doesn't
mean anything by itself, there's no built-in intrinsic
meaning,
it's just how you
want to use it.
3. it's an
abstraction like, "what is the truth?"
4. it's a
semantic blind-alley.
5. it doesn't
have a meaning except that which you assign to it, and if people
don't
agree on the
meaning then you're going to have endless feuds over nothing, which
is
what happens all
the time.
6. beat is a
four-letter word.
7. if you agree
on what you mean and how you want to use it, only then
can you use it.
8. to say that it
has an absolute inherent meaning one way or an absolute
inherent
meaning the other
way, is a semantic problem.
9. dont ask a
large question using a large word which can mean anything, and
then
expect somebody
to give you a sensible answer.
for me beat is a
philosophy that is an ideal rather than an idea
for me beat is an
ever lasting emotion - anyone who can understand & emphasize
with
this specific
eMotion is beat
for me beat is
jack kerouac neal cassady herbet huncke ad lib to fade
for me beat is
lying in the gutter yet still reaching for the stars
for me beat is
this list
thats enough for
me
joe
newcastleunitedkingdom
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 05:02:24 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> "The
most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the
> sower of all
true art and science. Those to whom this emotion is a
> stranger . .
. are as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us
> really
exists --- manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most
> radiant
beauty, which our dull facilities can comprehend only in their most
> primitive
forms --- this knowledge, this feeling, is at the centre to true
> religiousness.
In this sense, and this sense only, I belong to the ranks of
> devoutly
religious man." Albert Einstein
he also said
"i have my
best ideas while shaving." :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 05:31:13 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Traveling dream
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to the tune of
"Pack up your sorrows"
awoke in Salina
from dream of trip to kansas city.
stopped in
lawrence on way.
met patricia and
company.
wish Lena would
let me play "Q" now and then.
wedding visions.
tears streaming
like ghost of bride's great grandmother twice removed.
weep.
vision of three
old Rhaesa's and trunkload of trash.
back at
patricia's.
or billy p's.
same room many
places.
no watches.
highway
scenes. varied.
food. good.
smell of chicken
burritos.
terrific &
terrify
two terms of
travel tune.
smell of burning
rubber.
car shaking.
steering column
jerks.
cars passing.
passing.
passing.
leaving me behind
like ugly samarai warrior.
pit crew and Indy
descends and my Uncle Babe in charge.
i'm awake
now. slept for three days and have
ressurected. quite a
dream. no place like home.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 07:38:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: some thoughts on the list
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it seems since
beat-l is going down the tubes in some fashion, here. it's
like everybody's
personal planner, sec'ty etc since bill did what he had to
do to make us
think about what we send. and yet, not so much thinking
goinn' on
private posts
proliferate.
maybe if people
could take their more personal correspondence off list, we
could again go
into full swing again. ie, focus on literature.
and yes, i do
also send personal posts to list sometimes. this is for all,
includ. me, to
think about.
however, most of my personal posts i send off list
with list friends vs
spamming all with
details of who sat on whos terlet seat or whatever.
and that is not
an allusion/illusion to any previous poster.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:54:51 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: X
In-Reply-To: <339B1FB0.79B5@update.uu.se>
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X is
black-- amiri
baraka (Leroi Jones)
---
yrs
Rinaldo
* sorry this has
no beat connection *
* i'm a beetle beated *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:01:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: attn all beat-l members!
I am seeking
collaborators for a 'Zine' project. It
will consist of the
following:
---poetry, poetic
prose
---social
ciriticism
---sociology of
art and literature
---music and book
and film reviews
---artwork
(photos, drawings, paintings, ideas)
The end product
will be printed on actual paper (remember that stuff?) in
black and white
with color pages and real binding (not staples!!). I would
like to work on
it this summer and print it in September, as I am leaving
country
indefinitely in October.
I am open to all
kinds of submissions, not only beat-related.
Please send
things by e-mail
to Marioka7@aol.com or by regular mail
to: (wait a minute,
i don't wanna
post my addres, so just e-mail me and I'll send it to you if
you need it)
Though I'm not
looking for any particular flavor of writing, some selectivity
may be necessary,
depending on the volume of submissions.
Thanks and I look
forward to
hearing from you.---------------------------------------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:34:46 -0500
Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Subject: LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka
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With regard to Rinaldo Rasa's comment
that his posting of a quote
from Amiri Baraka
(LeRoi Jones) "has no beat connection," it is necessary
to note that
before he became a black cultural nationalist and changed his
name to Amiri
Baraka ("blessed prince") in 1967, LeRoi Jones was very
closely
associated with the Beats. He was the
only black writer included
in Donald Allen's
seminal anthology THE NEW AMERICAN POETRY 1945-1960,
which included
many of the Beats. Jones also published
(along with his
first wife Hettie
Cohen) a magazine called YUGEN (1958-1963), which
published many
Beat writers. He was close friends with
Allen Ginsberg and
others before
repudiating his relationships with white people (something he
is critical of
today). The full story of the beats
would have to include
African Americans
like LeRoi Jones and Ted Joans, as well as Bob Kaufman.
If anyone knows
of any others, I'd like to have the information.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:00:21 -0700
Reply-To: Jo Ann Collins
<joannc@CSUFRESNO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jo Ann Collins
<joannc@CSUFRESNO.EDU>
Subject: Jazz Poetry
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I'll try again to
see if anyone might be interested in providing some advice
on comparing jazz
poetry (most of the poems I'm discussing are either
dedicated to or
called by the artist's name - - i.e. Charlie Parker,
Thelonius Monk,
Charles Mingus, John Coltrane, etc. ) to jazz.
I'm
specifically
discussing the poetry of Lawson Inada. I
was referred to your
list by someone
who said there were knowledgeable people on this BEAT list.
But maybe I'm in
the wrong genre. Questions would be how
the structure of
the poem relates
to the way the music is written and performed; how the
words may make
you think of the artist's music, etc.
Thanks for any help
that may be
offered. Jo Ann
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:01:26 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat-L T-Shirt Update
Check out the
Beat-L T-shirt at http://www.waterrow.com
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Beat-L T-Shirt Update
Date: 97-06-02 15:54:02 EDT
From: Waterrow
To: Beat-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu
CC: Waterrow
Dear Beat-L
members:
Thanks to all of
you who have emailed or phoned me to place your order for
the official
Beat-L T-shirt which will be ready to ship in a few weeks....
But to all of you
out there who placed your name on the list back in April to
reserve your
T-shirts - Now is the time to honor your committment....
The T-shirt has
been custom designed by artist S.Clay Wilson and is available
in Large- Extra
Large- and Extra Extra Large Sizes. White ink on black 100%
super deluxe
quality cotton preshrunk T-shirt...$18.00 (no shipping or
handling
charges).
Satisfaction
guaranteed.
Master Card /
Visa / Money Order / or Check....
C'Mon Gerry
Nicosia! - If you really care about this Beat-L and promoting it
to the world,
Order a T-shirt!! And how about you -
Jerry C. - How come you
won't buy a shirt
to help promote this list??? And what about you, Paul
Maher? You can
give a shirt to Sampas as a gift! (only
kidding!!!! - don't
be soooo
sensitive, you guys!)
Seriously, folks
- please honor your T-shirt committment as soon as possible.
We ordered the
quantity of shirts and sizes based on your reservations....
You can view the
S. Clay Wilson artwork for the Beat-L shirt at:
http://www.waterrowbooks.com
Thanks -
Jeffrey Weinberg
Beat-L T-shirt
Committee
c/o Water Row
Books
PO Box 438
Sudbury MA 01776
Tel 508-485-8515
Fax 508-229-0885
EMail
Waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:00:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: A note from MEAN John
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a note from MEAN
John.
I have no
recollection if this was posted during the great flood of
tribute postings.
here it comes
.... straight in from California
where grapes are
picked
and the grape
pickers are
grape pickers.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
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Received: from
emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45])
by services.midusa.net (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id EAA05321
for <race@midusa.net>; Sat, 7 Jun
1997 04:35:33 -0500 (CDT)
From:
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Sat, 7 Jun 1997 05:46:09 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 7 Jun
1997 05:46:09 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID:
<970607054609_-1296137460@emout19.mail.aol.com>
To:
race@midusa.net
Subject: Ginsberg
tribute
David,
I don't know if
you saw this...thought I would send it along...
John
Allen Ginsberg: A
Moment of Grieving
Diane di Prima
Allen's face
stares up at me from a dozen newspapers,
Never to give his
stiff and upright form another hug!
No more
vegetarian concoction dinners at Varsity Town Houses!
No more lucid,
humorous analysis of puzzling political climate!
Not to be buddies
again on some committee to spring a friend from prison
or raise
bucks for yet another civil liberties trial!
No more late
hours in punk dives readis together for lamas or dharma
centers, or expounding Buddhist theory 2 a.m.
into green room mikes for
Pacifica Radio!
No time to fuss
that he doesn't take care of himself!
No more
presentation copies with funny drawings of flowers, suns, and
Buddhas!
No chance to meet
next generation of pretty boy poetry groupies, borrow
coffee on
Boulder summer mornings!
No one to ask me
about my sex life, my kids', my grandkids' sex lives!
No more that
warm, deep, beautiful voice coming between us poets and our
Troubles---real or mind-created!
No rich, funny
gossip, latest literary news from around the world,
grandfatherly
unlooked-for and unused poetry advice.
No warrior of
outspoken directness, unabashed songs of the most detailed,
embarrassing and personal moments of all our
lives.
John Meany
Claremont
Colleges
--------------181235B01C22--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:58:32 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Ray Bremser
Comments: cc:
cveditions@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Charlie:
Last Friday
talking to Jeffrey at Water Row books (I ordered my Beat-L
T-shirts),
Jeffrey talked of Ray Bremser and of Bonnie Bremser's book
"Troia"
and that Bonnie intends to rewrite it and add pages. Saturday
night at work, I
read the Ray Bremser section in "Portable Beat Reader."
Anyway, Jeffrey
suggested that I ask you about Ray and Bonnie
Bremser--that you
might have some personal antidotes regarding these two
writers that you
might share?
Thank you...
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 12:17:57 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Illness' remedy
Comments: cc:
cveditions@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Charley:
I meant to ask
for personal anecdotes not some herbal remedy, perhaps
ephedrined ma
haung stem tea antidote to fatigue and a whacked out spell
check'n less
Monday homonymal service! -- "God be with thee folks--Praise
the day and the
father and the mother and yer ghost--that shadow trail'n ya
there to too two
an and there they're their bare-Not Owsley-bear, bow
tie ya heads,
let's pray -- Some benzedrine or another
amphetamine would
do it! I'd rather have the antidote than the
anecdote if the
antidote was speed and the condition was me...
Antidote us... I
suppose
But I meant
anecdote...
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:10:49 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: old times--questions--questions...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DEAR friends,
how many are we?
150... 250... who he does it know?
i download for
myself the Beat-L archive
month by month
& here there's all
the answers we/i
need (?),
yes, man,
we posters are
the wired point
of what?
dawn/twilight of
the millenium,
'bout what's we
can write
'cuz beat is a
feeling
---
yrs
Rinaldo
* a not competent
beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:15:45 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka
In-Reply-To:
<l03010d00afc17c743039@[131.230.145.137]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09.34 09/06/97
-0500, Bob Fox wrote:
> With regard to Rinaldo Rasa's comment
that his posting of a quote
>from Amiri
Baraka (LeRoi Jones) "has no beat connection," it is necessary
>to note that
before he became a black cultural nationalist and changed his
>name to Amiri
Baraka ("blessed prince") in 1967, LeRoi Jones was very
>closely
associated with the Beats. He was the
only black writer included
>in Donald
Allen's seminal anthology THE NEW AMERICAN POETRY 1945-1960,
>which
included many of the Beats. Jones also
published (along with his
>first wife
Hettie Cohen) a magazine called YUGEN (1958-1963), which
>published
many Beat writers. He was close friends
with Allen Ginsberg and
>others before
repudiating his relationships with white people (something he
>is critical
of today). The full story of the beats would
have to include
>African
Americans like LeRoi Jones and Ted Joans, as well as Bob Kaufman.
>If anyone
knows of any others, I'd like to have the information.
>
>
i agree with u,
LeRoi Jones IS a beat,
apologies for the
mistake,
i love u friends,
indeed,
yrs
Rinaldo
from
venice,italy.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:04:24 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: So, I got up this morning and...
Comments: To:
Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<SNIP>
> If you really hate hemingway, then why are
you reading TSAR? Maybe it's
>required for
the bartending diploma? Actually, I
can't think of any other
>book that
would be a better read for a bartender.
How about Big
Sur, anything by Bukowski and, at my most facetious, anything
you can get your
hands on from the LBJ Presidential Library (there weren't
no milk in that
milk truck).
To keep this
mildly near-topic I know Ginsberg wrote love letters to
Eisenhower, does
anyone know if he wrote any to LBJ?
Sorry, Had to be
said :)
Matt Hannan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:35:12 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Leroie Jones/Amiri Baraka
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon June 9th,
Bob Fox wrote:
...LeRoi Jones
was very closely related to the Beats...
In case anyone
hasn't yet viewed the Mystic Fire video, "Cooked Shoes,
Fried
Diamonds" (Fried Shoes, Cooked Diamonds???) filmed in part at that
Jack Kerouac
Naropi Institute for Disembodied Poets in Boulder CO
has LeRoi Jones
reading poetry, Corso reading, Ann Waldeman reading, Ann
Waldeman swimming
in a bikini in a swimming pool being interviewed, Wm S
Burroughs talking
to Tim Leary, Ginsberg playing some odd
accordian device
reading a poem about his father's death,
folks get'n
arrested and hauled off inna gray school-bus jail wagon, etc....
I bought the
video from Zane Kesey's K-Zey production
and Water Row
also has it I believe....
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:10:58 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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MATT HANNAN
wrote:
I know Ginsberg
wrote love letters to
> Eisenhower,
does anyone know if he wrote any to LBJ?
>
rumours of a
trist-de-la-soul in Lincoln bedroom.
Ladybird turned into
Parakeet and flew
the coup.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:18:22 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Looking for a word i dreamed i read last
night
MIME-Version: 1.0
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dream of reading
about Don Juan.
don juan dreaming
of reading to me.
one word tonal is
remembered.
other word
nogunal
is peeeering through a curtain
spelling is
unclear.
meaning appears
related to where i live.
anyone who KNOWS
of the etymology of this WORD could help me out.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
to the tune of
"Goodnight Irene" by the Beach Boys
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:04:44 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DEAR friends,
I think a lot of
people knows that Jack Kerouac himself denied
to be a beat.
"Duluoz" his last book (& other last
articles circa
1968-1969) they are more explicit on this side of JK
thought. JK:because
I writes about beatniks do not make me a beat.
JK:I am
independent and do not want to appear in anthology with
writers with whom
I disagree.
this sentences
are a bit disappointing, why JK speaks so?
thanx for yr
friendship,
---
yrs Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:20:37 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
In-Reply-To:
<199706081738.NAA17204@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sun, 8 Jun
1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:
> Maybe once I
get my bartending diploma & finish TSAR I'll have some
> insightful
things to say (God, how I hate Hemmingway!!) about TSAR & OTR,
> since
comparisions have been made before.
[snip]
> In teh
meantime, any comments on my scholarly quest?
Been a while
since reading either, but the protagonist in TSAR was impotent
& felt
impotent with his relations; how does this compare (does it even)
with Sal's
feelings, espcially those toward Dean?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:28:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
In a message
dated 97-06-08 22:21:20 EDT, you write:
<< oo
concerned with style, I think. Take something like pissing as a perfect
example.
Eliot would try to make a work of art about pissing. >>
A good example,
Diane, and yes style was / is a concern. The only problem I
have with Ginsy's
didactict of pissing is that he would wait for pissing to
become a trend.
Peter used to bring his own piss to drink when they were
doing their back
to earth routine. It wasn't a new thing. I found it in one
of my mother's
old "underground" medical books. Anyway Allen was eager to
demonstrate to a
local here in C.V. how the running water method of "wiping"
asses is better
than our western paper method. i don't think the local (who
ran the liquor
store) was quite ready for the lesson as we all gathered at
our tiolet. But
he watched the experiment. I agreed with Allen on this one.
But back to
style..hmmm where was I. Oh yeah the book just came in from the
publisher, T.
Diventi, 409 Kent Ave., Bklyn, NY 11211 whom I was just on the
phone with. Wants
me to come down to do a reading. Anyway the book cover is
by the same
artist who did Jack Black. I've read the book through, almost,
and gave it to my
son, Billy who won't let go of it. Good sign. Someone asked
whose writing now
that is up to the beats. This is an example. The author
Carl Watson's,
vision is one I have been seeing since those works of the
beats many years
ago. I wish I had written it down. It would have been much
like this book.
When I can get my hands on it again, I'll try to be more
definitive. Sorry
no e-mail for Diventi.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:33:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators
In a message
dated 97-06-08 21:40:52 EDT, you write:
<< Terence
McKenna >>
Didn't he write a
letter to Hofstedtler? Sheldrake's another good example. I
think he is onto
something with the morphic resonance and its thread through
the universe.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:44:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
In a message
dated 97-06-09 01:11:03 EDT, you write:
<< or to
get out my actual feelings, heartthrobs, I'm
> not concerned with creating a work of
art, because that's only a
> three-letter word, anyway, plus the
four-letter word work. >>
Well, I think
Genet did a little better in the "heartthrob" genre. What
feelings aren't
actual anyway?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:48:30 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: attn all beat-l members!
In a message dated
97-06-09 15:40:45 EDT, you write:
<<
> Though I'm not looking for any particular
flavor of writing, some
selectivity
> may be necessary, depending on the volume
of submissions. Thanks and I
look
> forward to hearing from
you.---------------------------------------------maya
it would assist me greatly if you could hint
at a flavour ... that will
give me a grail to search for in my mountains
of paper scraps.
yours,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas >>
OK....do you have
anything resembling cut-ups? Words
thrown together that
just aren't meant
to be?(strange page-fellows)?
What about
something that explores how we perceive words and try to make
SENSE of them? I
mean, literally, how we attach sensation to sounds/language.
To narrow it down
even further, do you have anything with nonsense words?
Words you've made
up yourself? Or maybe words you threw together and got a
secondary meaning
that you liked?
If this is still
too general, send me anything with the word "spicy" in it.
-----------------------maya--------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:20:03 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leroie Jones/Amiri Baraka
In a message
dated 97-06-09 13:53:32 EDT, you write:
<< Ginsberg
playing some odd
accordian device reading a poem about his
father's death >>
It would be a
harmonium. (Harmoniums were made in Cherry Valley in 19th cent.
Dylan gave him
the one he had.) Is that the same time that Allen told me
about he and Anne
sat naked in a lotus position?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:16:53 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Dizzy & Kerouac
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain
> Question for Mark. Do you remember very
much about the details of
>Gillespie
picking up on Kerouac's name for the composition that he and
>Charlie
Christian called "Kerouac"? It's a fascinating topic. Players did
>occasionally
name songs after fans and Jack was around listening, watching
>and doing the
occasional jazz review.
> Antoine
> Voice
contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
Antoine,
I think you're
pretty on target. I _think_ - and this
is coming from a jazz
book, not a Kerouac bio, I remember -
that someone had
suggested it to Dizzy, possibly Kerouac's friend/record company
man Jerry Newman, as Gerry
Nicosia said, and
since Dizzy simply liked the sound of the name, he named the
arrangement after Jack.
I haven't heard
the song myself - I don't think the song is centered around any
conception of Jack's personality or
anything like
that. I'm not sure if it's avaliable on CD at all, as I don't
think it became a very big hit - but of
course, if
anyone knows
better than I, please elaborate...
Mark Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:32:27 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970609230444.00cdf204@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 9 Jun
1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> JK:I am
independent and do not want to appear in anthology with
> writers with
whom I disagree.
Who was Jack
talking about here I wonder. I finally took a look at the
Portable Jack
Kerouac this weekend at my sister's place; inside the cover it
says something to
the effect that the book was prepared in accordance to a
design the author
had assembled before his death. Was this the intended
Duluoz mega-work
he was always talking about, or something else entirely?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:45:16 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Kerouac Week in Lowell
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
June 9, 1997
Mark Hemenway tells us that this year,
during Kerouac Week in
Lowell, the
official Kerouac Committee will give tributes to Allen Ginsberg
(who died this
year) and Herbert Huncke (who died last year).
He also says
there will be
another memorial mass for Jack Kerouac's soul at St. Louis de
France church in
Lowell, Kerouac's boyhood church, as there was last year.
I was there last year, and was stirred
by the candlelight procession
after the
Mass. But I was puzzled that no mention
was made at that Mass of
Jack's daughter
Jan, who had just died a few months earlier.
Now it puzzles
me even more that
the official Kerouac Committee will memorialize Herbert
Huncke and Allen
Ginsberg, but again, no reference whatsoever to Jack's
daughter having
just died.
Since I am not a part of the official
Kerouac Committee, I can only
suggest that it
would be appropriate that some acknowledgement of Jan's
passing be made
during Kerouac Week this year. And if a
Mass is to be held
for Jack's soul,
would it also not be appropriate to have Jan's soul
remembered there
too?
Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:57:00 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators
The Pythagorians,
hence Egytians knew nothing else than that which is
sensory; for them
there is scarcely any delineation which
is not a body.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:13:36 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Week in Lowell
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
>
June 9, 1997
>
> Mark Hemenway tells us that this year,
during Kerouac Week in
> Lowell, the
official Kerouac Committee will give tributes to Allen Ginsberg
> (who died
this year) and Herbert Huncke (who died last year). He also says
> there will
be another memorial mass for Jack Kerouac's soul at St. Louis de
> France
church in Lowell, Kerouac's boyhood church, as there was last year.
> I was there last year, and was stirred
by the candlelight procession
> after the
Mass. But I was puzzled that no mention
was made at that Mass of
> Jack's
daughter Jan, who had just died a few months earlier. Now it puzzles
> me even more
that the official Kerouac Committee will memorialize Herbert
> Huncke and
Allen Ginsberg, but again, no reference whatsoever to Jack's
> daughter
having just died.
> Since I am not a part of the official
Kerouac Committee, I can only
> suggest that
it would be appropriate that some acknowledgement of Jan's
> passing be
made during Kerouac Week this year. And
if a Mass is to be held
> for Jack's
soul, would it also not be appropriate to have Jan's soul
> remembered
there too?
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
Gerald, do you
know if Edie K-Parkers autobiography got published?
nice to hear your
voice on the list.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:24:34 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ray Bremser
In a message
dated 97-06-09 11:00:24 EDT, you write:
<< Anyway,
Jeffrey suggested that I ask you about Ray and Bonnie
Bremser--that you might have some personal
antidotes regarding these two
writers that you might share?
>>
I haven'y seen
Bonnie since we all lived at the Committee. I have a farm
photo I can send.
I understand Bonnnie is ill. I see their daughter
occasionally, who
stops by Cherry Valley. The last time I saw Ray, he was
crying at the
committee at a crash scene (the last one) going on there.
Before that, some
years ago, we did a reading in Albany with Janine. I went
to his pad in
Utica to find him. No house number on the door. Had to ask
around by
description found him. I needed to take a piss; he pointed to the
kitchen sink
which had grown over, moss-like. I found my way to a chair. The
floor was lined
with bottles. He was on a bare mattress. The kitchen table
was piled high
with empty bottles and cans and cigarette butts piled in
everything. On
top of the heap was several thousand dollars in cash from a
welfare suit or
something. He gave me a thousand and said someting like, now
we're square,
don't ever say I owe you anything. Which he didn't. Just nickle
and dimed me for
years. Everyday we hit drugstores when Turpin Hydrate
Codiene. was
legal. I paid for the daily trip. He scored at two or three drug
stores. We split
the drink and drove home. That lasted about two or three
years, so I guess
the expense was about a thou. Too bad that still isn't on
the market. Sure
helped us old timers not get the grip. They say it (Laudnum,
about the same)
was advised by Coleridge's chemist. It is surely needed for
the long winters
(and summers). Now the Pharmaceutical cartel can't let
anything that
simple and inexpensive be on the market for the masses. They
would rather have
them take something that will eventually lead to other
problems that
they can realize more profits from. Simple low maintenance
addiction is not
lucrative enought for the Industry. They prefer transplants,
hookups to
oxygen, etc. for those with insurance. Ray did give me a mss he
finished-sd he'd
like to see it in print but it didn't have anything to do
with the money. I
sent the mss to Jeff.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:32:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: buchenroth
Thought this
might be of interest to the beat-l, proust etc. We're trying to
encourage Bob to
join the list. He is a great critic.
Pam Plymell
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
From: baculum@mci2000.com (baculum)
Reply-to: baculum@mci2000.com
To: CVEditions@aol.com (charles plymell)
Date: 97-06-09
20:29:22 EDT
Dear Charley,
I finally figured out how to pull up the
Buchenroth site. Yes, it's all
fascinating, and
I wonder how many people have zeroed in to see it. Isn't
there a way of
telling how many websites have been examined over a given
time? That's
still what eludes me--the chances of being seen even if you
are goven a
webpage, etc. But then if there is no webpage you won't be
seen, period.
I'll send an e-mail to buchenroth to see if he'd like some
books. wouldn't
it be neat to have a Peters site on his set up, along side
the cp site?
Spent nearly 3 hours in dentist's chair
this a.m. dealing with decay
under a capped
tooth, etc. And wll go back Th for more. Even with dental
plan he is fuckin
expensive.
Reading a strange book by a Froggie living
in England Alain De Boton,
HOW PROUST CAN
CHAGE YOUR LIFE. If you'd ever want to know a lot about
Proust this would
be a good place to start. My daughter
sent it to me from
Switz. She's now
ordering books from Amazon! Might check that out, too. Are
you books on
there? I know some of mine are, but lots of their details
about them need
to be cleaned up.
So much to do: revise a long interview I
once did with R duncan that
was supposed to
have appeared in a book years ago; ms. for CELEBRITIES a
book of poems
that needs lots of revisions, work; onwards with 1970's book;
occasional sex
with friend Larry; helping Paul with the dictionary; and
going back to
long o.p. books to see if there aren't poems in there, now
totally lost, I
can send around to mags for a second life.
For now
Bob P.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:30:52 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: bill
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bill.
by david rhaesa
6-9-97
eyes sparkle
golden
reflection of
k-mart
blue light
special headbands...
eyes glow
simple awareness
of Godot's own
old gardener....
several times
sees
my twisting
synapse
or gesture
and unties
knots
left tangled
since preschool
days....
this film to be
shot in a bridge scene at sunday overlooking strawberry
fields.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:21:26 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> The only
problem I have with Ginsy's didactict of pissing is that he
>would wait
for pissing to become a trend.
Can you elaborate
further on what you see as his "trendiness" as opposed
to his
"originality?"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 19:59:32 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Edie Parker
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June 9, 1997
Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>Gerald, do
you know if Edie K-Parkers autobiography got published?
>nice to hear
your voice on the list.
>patricia
>
Dear Patricia:
No, Edie's book has not been
published. Edie appointed a friend of
hers named Tim
Moran her literary executor, and he was given ownership of
all her
manuscripts and extensive Beat archives.
Tim was a tall, quiet guy
who used to
accompany Edie at all the Beat gatherings.
I have not heard
from him since
the 1994 Beat symposium at NYU, and I have wondered myself
what he plans to
do with Edie's things.
I did hear that Creative Arts in
Berkeley plans to publish Joan
Haverty's memoir,
NOBODY'S WIFE. So it would seem the time is ripe for
Edie's book
too. Poor Edie always felt left out, and
it would be a final
irony if her book
has to wait till every other memoir is published
first--and here
she was, the first wife and also the one Jack called his
"life's
wife." As you may know, in
September, 1969, when Jack went to see
his lawyer Fred
Bryson about divorcing Stella, he wrote to Edie a couple of
times to come
down to Florida and join him and to "hash out whatever future
they might still
have together" (paraphrase). But
then Jack got beaten up
in the black
Cactus bar in St. Pete, got his ribs busted and lots of
internal bleeding
(which may have hastened his death), and he wrote her back
not to come down
as planned.
Then, on October 21, any chance of Jack
and Edie getting back
together was
killed permanently. Instead of meeting
him in Florida, Edie
saw him laid out
at Archembault Funeral Home in Lowell, where she brought
him a funeral
bouquet that read (at least as she remembered it to me): "Beat
the
Heat." Supposedly Ginsberg sent one
that said: "Guard the Heart."
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:16:42 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Ray Bremser
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote
. . . Everyday we
hit drugstores when Turpin Hydrate
> Codiene. was
legal. I paid for the daily trip. He scored at two or three drug
> stores. We
split the drink and drove home. That lasted about two or three
> years, so I
guess the expense was about a thou. Too bad that still isn't on
> the market.
Sure helped us old timers not get the grip. They say it (Laudnum,
> about the
same) was advised by Coleridge's chemist. It is surely needed for
> the long
winters (and summers). Now the Pharmaceutical cartel can't let
> anything
that simple and inexpensive be on the market for the masses. They
> would rather
have them take something that will eventually lead to other
> problems
that they can realize more profits from. Simple low maintenance
> addiction is
not lucrative enought for the Industry. They prefer transplants,
> hookups to
oxygen, etc. for those with insurance.
Charles,
Thanks for the
memory. I'd forgotten Turpin
Hydrate. We could get it
still in
Washington State until sometime in the early 70's as I recall.
A favorite of
hipper loggers, treeplanters, fisherman and other
undesirables. Now you can't even get codienettas over the
counter in
TJ. Can get Valium relatives tho. There is something wrong in the
world when
simple, inexpensive low level opiates are that unavailable.
Makes the world
safe for the smack cartels and the medico's I guess.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:16:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Rinaldo,
Maybe he sensed
that the center is always the edge that is. Nufzentonite?
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:28:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> >
> > The
only problem I have with Ginsy's didactict of pissing is that he
> >would
wait for pissing to become a trend.
>
> Can you
elaborate further on what you see as his "trendiness" as opposed
> to his
"originality?"
not certain who
has claim to originality of human elimination processes.
elimination seems
a Constant. don't quite fathom notion of
trendyness
either.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:30:00 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Edie Parker
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Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> June 9, 1997
> Patricia
Elliott wrote:
> >Gerald,
do you know if Edie K-Parkers autobiography got published?
> >nice to
hear your voice on the list.
> >patricia
> >
> Dear
Patricia:
> No, Edie's book has not been
published. Edie appointed a friend of
> hers named
Tim Moran her literary executor, and he was given ownership of
> all her
manuscripts and extensive Beat archives.
Tim was a tall, quiet guy
> who used to
accompany Edie at all the Beat gatherings.
I have not heard
> from him
since the 1994 Beat symposium at NYU, and I have wondered myself
> what he
plans to do with Edie's things.
> I did hear that Creative Arts in
Berkeley plans to publish Joan
> Haverty's
memoir, NOBODY'S WIFE. So it would seem the time is ripe for
> Edie's book
too. Poor Edie always felt left out, and
it would be a final
> irony if her
book has to wait till every other memoir is published
> first--and
here she was, the first wife and also the one Jack called his
> "life's
wife." As you may know, in
September, 1969, when Jack went to see
> his lawyer
Fred Bryson about divorcing Stella, he wrote to Edie a couple of
> times to
come down to Florida and join him and to "hash out whatever future
> they might
still have together" (paraphrase).
But then Jack got beaten up
> in the black
Cactus bar in St. Pete, got his ribs busted and lots of
> internal
bleeding (which may have hastened his death), and he wrote her back
> not to come
down as planned.
> Then, on October 21, any chance of
Jack and Edie getting back
> together was
killed permanently. Instead of meeting
him in Florida, Edie
> saw him laid
out at Archembault Funeral Home in Lowell, where she brought
> him a
funeral bouquet that read (at least as she remembered it to me): "Beat
> the
Heat." Supposedly Ginsberg sent one
that said: "Guard the Heart."
> Best, Gerry Nicosia
o thank you for
your post. I met Edie and liked her, she
was a natural
person. I agree with the impression that she was his
true wife. I hope
the biography
comes out. She told me some unique
stories from a
perspective that
was not literary but gripping and passionate.
I
noticed that the
burroughs contingent were inclusive to her which is
part of the
dignity and elegance that comes from those folks. I would
like to say that
your writing means a lot to me and i am i have to say
thrilled to be
able to actually communicate with you on some of the
subjects that are
of such great interest to me.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:31:21 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> Diane Carter
wrote:
> >
> > Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
> > >
> > >
The only problem I have with Ginsy's didactict of pissing is that he
> >
>would wait for pissing to become a trend.
> >
> > Can you
elaborate further on what you see as his "trendiness" as opposed
> > to his
"originality?"
>
> not certain
who has claim to originality of human elimination processes.
> elimination
seems a Constant. don't quite fathom
notion of trendyness
> either.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
Actually, don't
you see human elmination processes, I would rather say
excrement, real
or in the mind, as being the constant in the writing
process that
binds together the consciousness of all writers from the
beginning of time
to now?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:59:39 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Excrement & the writing process
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> Diane Carter
wrote:
> >
>>
Actually, don't you see humann elmination processes, I would rather
>>say
> >
excrement, real or in the mind, as being the constant in the writing
> > process
that binds together the consciousness of all writers from the
> >
beginning of time to now?
> > DC
>
> not just
writers.
> it is the
great equalizer that the Pope and you and Mother Theresa and I
> all share.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
Nice to know we
all have something in common in addition to our
craving for beat
literature. Everytime I think of
excrement in a way
connected to
literature, I think of James Joyce, no disrespect intended,
just sort of the
flow of thought/dream comes to mind.
Bodily functions
and the process
of writing. Union of physical body and
intellect being
necessary in the
creative process. I'm sure we can
somehow relate this
back to beat
writers. Any thoughts on excrement and
Kerouac?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 02:29:06 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Edie Parker
Comments: To:
Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:30 PM
6/9/97 -0500, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>>
>> June 9, 1997
>> Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>>
>Gerald, do you know if Edie K-Parkers autobiography got published?
>> >nice
to hear your voice on the list.
>>
>patricia
>> >
>> Dear
Patricia:
>> No, Edie's book has not been
published. Edie appointed a friend of
>> hers
named Tim Moran her literary executor, and he was given ownership of
>> all her
manuscripts and extensive Beat archives.
Tim was a tall, quiet guy
>> who used
to accompany Edie at all the Beat gatherings.
I have not heard
>> from him
since the 1994 Beat symposium at NYU, and I have wondered myself
>> what he
plans to do with Edie's things.
>> I did hear that Creative Arts in
Berkeley plans to publish Joan
>>
Haverty's memoir, NOBODY'S WIFE. So it would seem the time is ripe for
>> Edie's
book too. Poor Edie always felt left
out, and it would be a final
>> irony if
her book has to wait till every other memoir is published
>>
first--and here she was, the first wife and also the one Jack called his
>>
"life's wife." As you may
know, in September, 1969, when Jack went to see
>> his
lawyer Fred Bryson about divorcing Stella, he wrote to Edie a couple of
>> times to
come down to Florida and join him and to "hash out whatever future
>> they
might still have together" (paraphrase).
But then Jack got beaten up
>> in the
black Cactus bar in St. Pete, got his ribs busted and lots of
>> internal
bleeding (which may have hastened his death), and he wrote her back
>> not to
come down as planned.
>> Then, on October 21, any chance of
Jack and Edie getting back
>> together
was killed permanently. Instead of
meeting him in Florida, Edie
>> saw him
laid out at Archembault Funeral Home in Lowell, where she brought
>> him a
funeral bouquet that read (at least as she remembered it to me): "Beat
>> the
Heat." Supposedly Ginsberg sent one
that said: "Guard the Heart."
>> Best, Gerry Nicosia
>o thank you
for your post. I met Edie and liked her,
she was a natural
>person. I agree with the impression that she was his
true wife. I hope
>the biography
comes out. She told me some unique
stories from a
>perspective
that was not literary but gripping and passionate. I
>noticed that
the burroughs contingent were inclusive to her which is
>part of the
dignity and elegance that comes from those folks. I would
>like to say
that your writing means a lot to me and i am i have to say
>thrilled to
be able to actually communicate with you on some of the
>subjects that
are of such great interest to me.
>patricia
Yeah, Edie seems
to me to as one of the coolest gals that ole jack got
involved
with. I love Jack's description of her
in a letter to neal when he
tells Neal
something to the effect of:
"You need someone like Edie,
giggling under the covers in the morning."
She just sounds
real cute and fun and sweet from what I've read about her.
I too am waiting
for her book.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:45:07 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: GHETTO DEFENDANT (the Clash)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DEAR friends,
i found likes:
"One night
at the Bond's shows on Broadway,
Allen Ginseberg
got up on stage and started
to recite
something, and the band came up
with an impromptu
musical backing to it. I
think that he may
have done it with them a
couple of nights
later as well... When we
were recording
Combat Rock, Ginsberg came
down to the
studio with Pete Orlofsky (sp?).
He wanted to get
the Clash to back him on a
record he was
going to make, but ended up on
our record
instead... Some people have said
he was Joe's
lyric coach on that record, but
I think that's a
bit overplayed."---KOSMO VINYL
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:53:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
In-Reply-To: <339ACC15.4C3462D@scsn.net>
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hmmm.... simple.
the list that i
sent out a few days ago about what to do when waiting for
the beat-l mail
to download?
Add that to real
life.
I've been yaking
on the phone to various bukowski enthusists as well as
bopping around
san francisco.
does the hotel
"The Utah" ring any bells to any beat enthusiests out there?
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you -me
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
mirror->
http://www.interlog.com/~lisa
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:31:58 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Ann Charters
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DEAR friends,
is here Ann
Charters on the B-List? i'm reading his
introduction to
JK "On The Road" (ya, re-re-re-reading summer...),
btw if also are
here some Beat Brit (living in London)
can say me hello?
love, peace &
freelin'life,
yrs
Rinaldo from
venice,italy.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:05:57 -0500
Reply-To: Ron Guest
<rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ron Guest
<rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Gary Snyder
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I'm not familiar
with Gary Snyder's work but I am constantly seeing
references to him
when I read about other beats. It is the
usual, his
influence on
Kerouac and Ginsburg, being one of the original beats at the
Six Gallery
reading, THE Dharma Bum etc. and I was wondering why I rarely
ever see a post
about him. Seems that he should be
mentioned along with
Kerouac, Ginsberg
and Burroughs. Did he somehow distance himself from the
other beats?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:04:56 -0400
Reply-To: Ted Harms
<tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ted Harms
<tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970610200557.00675a28@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
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On Tue, 10 Jun
1997, Ron Guest wrote:
> I'm not
familiar with Gary Snyder's work but I am constantly seeing
> references
to him when I read about other beats...I was wondering why I
> rarely ever
see a post about him. Seems that he
should be mentioned
> along with
Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs. Did he somehow distance
> himself from
the other beats?
Well, I think
Gary is kinda an uber-beat in that he was an inspiration and
an observer but
not an active, regular participant.
Sure, "Japhy" plays a
pretty big part
in _The Dharma Bums_, but I think his own interests in
Japan in general
and Zen in particular, kept him on the periphery of the
'Beat' scene.
I think much of
this has to do with Snyder himself. It
would be very easy
for him to loudly
proclaim his Beat-ness but he's quietly gone about his
excellent poetry
(won the Pulitzer for _Turtle Island_ and _Mountains and
Rivers Without
End_ got great reviews everywhere) and teaching (does
anybody know if
he is still on staff at Univ. Cal. at Davis and what
courses does/did
he teach?).
Yeah, I wish
there'd be more Snyder-talk; there are fans of his on the
list, but I think
we're a little more on the quiet side...;)
Ted Harms Library, Univ. of
Waterloo
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761
"...it's
elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:28:59 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder
Comments: To: Ron
Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
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I saw Snyder here in Colorado recently so
he's certainly still doing
the lecture circuit. It was an SRO crowd, we teeming masses well
overflowed the too small lecture hall he
was given. He's very much
continuing his ecology-bent poetry as well
as speaking on his
eco-political stance (basing political
boundaries on watersheds vs
other means). I believe he has a new work out (not sure).
Snyder's poetry was an influence on my
leaving the military (much to
do with Right Occupation/Action). Now I live in the shadow of "NORADs
Rapture Mountain" to quote Ginsberg,
trying to fight/right a lot of
negative Karma.
Back to your point, he didn't speak at all
on the Beats, but then
again he only delved into his own past as
deep as the 1970s (Turtle
Island is base Snyder, a definite first
read). You're right though,
he is as much a Beat individual as an
influence on them. I'm not up
on him personally, maybe someone else on
the list, PROBABLY someone
else on the list, is much more
knowledgeable than I.
Matt Hannan
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Gary
Snyder
Author: Ron Guest
<rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU> at Internet
Date: 6/10/97 3:05 PM
I'm not familiar
with Gary Snyder's work but I am constantly seeing
references to him
when I read about other beats. It is the
usual, his
influence on
Kerouac and Ginsburg, being one of the original beats at the
Six Gallery
reading, THE Dharma Bum etc. and I was wondering why I rarely
ever see a post
about him. Seems that he should be
mentioned along with
Kerouac, Ginsberg
and Burroughs. Did he somehow distance himself from the
other beats?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:15:50 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:53 AM
6/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>hmmm....
simple.
>the list that
i sent out a few days ago about what to do when waiting for
>the beat-l
mail to download?
>Add that to
real life.
>
>I've been
yaking on the phone to various bukowski enthusists as well as
>bopping
around san francisco.
>
>does the
hotel "The Utah" ring any bells to any beat enthusiests out there?
>
>ttfn.
>
>lisa
>--
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to hate
you
> and yet that is all i can show
you -me
>
>http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> mirror->
http://www.interlog.com/~lisa
>
Lisa, June 10, 1997
Jack Micheline used to hang around the
Utah, other Beat characters
too. Seems there was some new wave music there too
a few years ago.
While you're in San Francisco, bop up
to the North Beach fair on
Grant Avenue on
Saturday. I'll be doing a tribute to Jan
Kerouac at the
bandstand, upper
Grant at Filbert, around 3 PM. Introduce
yourself!
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:19:00 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
In-Reply-To:
<970609231546_-194754051@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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C. Plymell
writes:
>Rinaldo,
>Maybe he
sensed that the center is always the edge that is. Nufzentonite?
>C. Plymell
>
>
DEAR C. Plymell
& other friends,
not only JK had
difficulties to embracing the BEAT,
but even GREGORY
CORSO & others. so the focus of BEAT is fading,
in the charter JK
AG & WSB are only a banner, & works 'bout
modern artists
american/european et coetera, i hope became more
beat-spotting
than usually. for example the past estate battle
was (if i'm wrong
beat me as a beetle!) concerning the true manuscript
of "On The
Road" & that seem hidden in some place in the UsOfAm,
the book we enjoy
are snipped from a longest book written by
many hands &
Jack became the "focus" of this experience, & when he
was 47 he don't
care anymore, i'm sure if JK disagree with BEAT
there's no
dimishing of the past BUT a sort of emphasis of a
collective works
maked in lost years,
love &
happiness,
yrs Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:06:10 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: Excrement & the writing process
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <339D096B.71D9@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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when i first
read, seems so long ago mentally, the section of the
beginning of
Visions of Cody, where Jack discusses the drawbacks of
beating off
sittong on a toilet seat, i thought "whooly shit, you can
write that in a
novel?!"
just
kickin the shit,
Eric
On Tue, 10 Jun 1997,
Diane Carter wrote:
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > Diane
Carter wrote:
> > >
> >>
Actually, don't you see humann elmination processes, I would rather
> >>say
> > >
excrement, real or in the mind, as being the constant in the writing
nn> > >
process that binds together the consciousness of all writers from the
> > >
beginning of time to now?
> > > DC
>
> > not
just writers.
> > it is
the great equalizer that the Pope and you and Mother Theresa and I
> > all
share.
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > salina,
Kansas
>
> Nice to know
we all have something in common in addition to our
> craving for
beat literature. Everytime I think of
excrement in a way
> connected to
literature, I think of James Joyce, no disrespect intended,
> just sort of
the flow of thought/dream comes to mind.
Bodily functions
> and the
process of writing. Union of physical
body and intellect being
> necessary in
the creative process. I'm sure we can
somehow relate this
> back to beat
writers. Any thoughts on excrement and
Kerouac?
> DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:10:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Excrement & the writing process
Comments: To:
"Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSD/.3.91.970610180107.12650A-100000@crystal.palace.n et>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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Yeah, man. When
I'm taking a nice big dump is the time I feel oneness with
Jack Kerouac...
At 06:06 PM
6/10/97 -0400, Robert H. Sapp wrote:
>when i first
read, seems so long ago mentally, the section of the
>beginning of
Visions of Cody, where Jack discusses the drawbacks of
>beating off
sittong on a toilet seat, i thought "whooly shit, you can
>write that in
a novel?!"
>
>
>just
>kickin the
shit,
>Eric
>
>
>On Tue, 10 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
>> RACE ---
wrote:
>> >
>> >
Diane Carter wrote:
>> >
>
>> >>
Actually, don't you see humann elmination processes, I would rather
>>
>>say
>> >
> excrement, real or in the mind, as being the constant in the writing
>nn> >
> process that binds together the consciousness of all writers from the
>> >
> beginning of time to now?
>> >
> DC
>>
>> > not
just writers.
>> > it
is the great equalizer that the Pope and you and Mother Theresa and I
>> > all
share.
>> >
>> >
david rhaesa
>> >
salina, Kansas
>>
>> Nice to
know we all have something in common in addition to our
>> craving
for beat literature. Everytime I think
of excrement in a way
>>
connected to literature, I think of James Joyce, no disrespect intended,
>> just
sort of the flow of thought/dream comes to mind. Bodily functions
>> and the
process of writing. Union of physical
body and intellect being
>>
necessary in the creative process. I'm
sure we can somehow relate this
>> back to
beat writers. Any thoughts on excrement
and Kerouac?
>> DC
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:10:29 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
If pissing became
a trend, Allen would follow the stream. And if shit were
valuable, the
poor would be born without assholes.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:02:59 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dizzy & Kerouac
Comments: To:
NOFERI.MARK@epamail.epa.gov
In a message
dated 97-06-09 18:42:34 EDT, NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV (MARK
NOFERI) writes:
<< details
of
>Gillespie picking up on Kerouac's name for
the composition that he and
>Charlie Christian called
"Kerouac"? >>
The following is
an exerpt from the liner notes written by Alain Tercinet
from Dizzie
Gillespie's album "The Harlem Jazz Scene - 1941" "Of the hours
and hours of
music Dizzy Gillespie played during this crucial period, only
three pieces
indisputably his have survived: two versions of Stardust and a
paraphrase of
Exactly Like You, christened "Kerouac" at a much later date
(after Dizzy had
turned down the title Ginsberg).
(above information
was provided by Dave Moore)
go blow your own
horn,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 06:42:51 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: 50 YEARS since DENVER
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Hello All,
well i'm armed
with a different car as of this morning.
i'm planning a
journey out to
Denver for a big huge Humphrey family gala on the fourth
of July in some
downtown Denver apartment that my cousin owns.
i was talking
with my brother-in-law the other day - who lives in Aurora
- about trying to
make some beat-historical theme to the trip as well.
then this morning
as i'd picked up Memory Babe again and was reading out
at a nearby
truckstop, i realized "eureka" this is 50 years since Jack's
trip to
Denver. now the journey is shifting
towards some sort of
pilgram
quest. i'll probably add a day or two to
the journey.
i scribbled notes
of places and streets and whatnot out of Memory Babe.
i'm hoping that
some of y'all who are MUCH MUCH more knowledgeable than
i on this subject
can provide further hints and suggestions.
perhaps the
significance of DENVER to the beat scene is a worthy notion
to revisit this
summer as we feel a half-century memory of Jack moving
through America
towards Denver.
i could really
SEE him in Davenport Iowa in my mind. I
felt i knew
EXACTLY where
everything he was saying was since i lived in that area
for three years
or so.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:47:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970610220933_2054769319@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:10 PM
6/10/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>If pissing
became a trend, Allen would follow the stream. And if shit were
>valuable, the
poor would be born without assholes.
>C. Plymell
>
Actually, when fucking a lover in a
cheap hotel is when I feel most
Ginsbergian.
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:17:52 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Dizzy & Kerouac -Reply
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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>>>
<GYENIS@aol.com> 06/11/97 05:02am >>>
In a message
dated 97-06-09 18:42:34 EDT, NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV (MARK
NOFERI) writes:
<< details
of
>Gillespie picking up on Kerouac's name for
the composition that he and
>Charlie Christian called
"Kerouac"? >>
The following is
an exerpt from the liner notes written by Alain Tercinet
from Dizzie
Gillespie's album "The Harlem Jazz Scene - 1941" "Of the hours
and hours of
music Dizzy Gillespie played during this crucial period, only
three pieces
indisputably his have survived: two versions of Stardust and a
paraphrase of
Exactly Like You, christened "Kerouac" at a much later date
(after Dizzy had
turned down the title Ginsberg).
(above
information was provided by Dave Moore)
go blow your own
horn,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:36:52 -0600
Reply-To: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
Subject: 50 YEARS since DENVER -Reply
Comments: To:
race@MIDUSA.NET
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain
** Reply
Requested When Convenient **
Make sure that
you look at Levi's page for great Denver info.
(www.charm.net/`brooklyn/Denver/Denver.html)
Also I'm not sure what
your trip entails
but if you want to happen by the Ogden spoke of in "On
the Road"
& "Visions of Cody" I'll take you by the Kokomo Club mentioned
in
"Visions" and show you the places where "The Last Time I
committed
Suicide" was
filmed. Ogden is 35 miles north on I-15
of Salt Lake City
(the birth place
of Neal).
Safe trip,
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:55:48 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: American Haikus
Comments: To:
CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <s39eba79.097@weber.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I love Jack
Kerouac. Why can't I find any men like him alive today? Fucked
up, intellectual,
hard-assed, tender, goofy, genius..... Damn. Anyway, I
really love his
American Haikus. Here are a couple of my own, inspired by him:
My Grandpa dyes his hair.
He fucked up.
Now it's purple.
Every night I fall asleep
with a dead author
in my hands.
--Sara Feustle
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:10:59 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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hi derek,
"Beaulieu,
Victor-Levy. Jack Kerouac: A Chicken-Essay. Toronto,1975"
are u close or
distant relative with this writer?
love&happiness
yr
Rinaldo * edmonton sounds me like a song... *
* like on the green plain i see here *
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:12:20 +0100
Reply-To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
well, here's it :
you see, i'm not
trying
to say anything
because i already
tried
and it didn't
work
which is cool
.like anything else
at the same time
:
i leapt off the
wall
into the river
(i haven't done
much
in my life)
but this at least
was
leaping.
i fell many
stories
on purpose
(i mean,
both ways you
could take stories
whatever)
i fell a lot
& i hit hands
first
but i scored my
forehead
to fuck
on the river base
so i may have
contracted
disease
which should be
something
even if it isn't
beat.
anyway, i climbed
up afterwards
and jumped off
the bridge
i was wearing
underwear
there was another
guy who wasn't
you should have
seen the tourists
in don't know if
they were happy
but they were for
sure excited
you should have
seen them.
climbed out &
i couldn't
deal with
anything much better
except i may well
be dying
& so i may as
well be alive
- except i may as
well pretend to be
dying for
sympathy well,
whatever.
shit, everyone
else got
special
treatment.
that's probably
not true.
won't fool
anyone.
last cup of
don't believe
you.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:45:14 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: retreat diaries
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Race
did you enjoy the
retreat diaries. I found them a glimmer
of light on
some of the more
explicable parts of the cities of the red night. I
suppose it is the
perversity in me that makes wsb my favorite.
I love
to believe the
writer is talking up to me. My next
favorite of the
associated beat
poets is gary snyder, then perhaps rinaldo , because he
insists that this
list not be provincial. llalala
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:18:22 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Hunter S. Thompson
MIME-version: 1.0
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If anyone is on
this late at night. hunter S. thomson is
going to be on
Conan O'Brian
tonight. should be fun.
-matt
ps Hey, does
anyone know the date of the INSOMNIACATHON this year? Im
hoping to head on
down to N'Awlins a bit early and catch it.
tanks
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:29:40 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
>I love Jack
Kerouac. Why can't I find any men like him alive today? Fucked
>up,
intellectual, hard-assed, tender, goofy, genius..... Damn.
Uh....you must
not be looking too hard
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:57:18 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
I agree with
Malcs... seems to me there are plenty of
Fucked up,
intellectual,
hard assed, tender, goofy, geniuses out there...
"Even in
heaven they don't sing all the time..."
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:00:21 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Food at the Beat Hotel in mecca
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Several folks
have wanted a detailed food report. This
is not
particularly my
strong suit. As a result of a number of
physical and
psychological
factors, i pretty much see food in terms of purpose rather
than taste. To me it is basically, a fuel that the brain
and body needs
to function. I usually dine with a shovel like scoop until
the food is
all gone. then say good. but this is not adequate for the food that is
offered at the
Beat Hotel in mecca.
Best Meal -- the
best meal came on the last night. After
going out to
some place called
PIG and drinking a coffee called Black Magic - two
cups. I was in Billie Plymell's room with a blue
hot plate a long blue
fork - with a
spoke or two missing - a penny for my thoughts on the hot
plate and some
musical mixtures i'd concocted for my journey.
enough of
ambience. the main course was a slim pamphlet which was
very very
filling and
tastey. probably the most wonderful
words to hit my plate
since the first
time reading Harry Haller's Diaries in Steppenwolf for
the first
time. The tonal and nogunal veggies
tasted familiar yet with
some spice and
cooking that i'd never witnessed before.
The meal
consisted of
"The Retreat Diaries" by William Burroughs coming out of
City Moon. Desert was a two a.m. departure and several
hours of
interstate and
stars mixing with the meal. it was
wonderful.
Second best
meal. Pasta. Now i'm a simple kansas boy and pasta is
pasta. but i can say a bit more. it was circular with spokes and some
was cream and
some was an orangeish tint, and i think perhaps a light
green spoked
circle here and there. The sauce was
tomato and didn't
taste as though
it just popped out of a jar. within were
mixed these
curious
creatures. at first glance i thought they
were cucumbers. they
had the general
shape and look. but the coloring was
off. and they
tasted nothing
like cucumbers. the combination was a
"good" meal and i
shoveled several
helpings. the scene was nice as
well. we ate in an
upstairs living room
as we prepared to watch a film titled "Evening
Star". (which is a road just East of Lawrence that i
passed going to
and from Kansas
City). The movie was good - i kept
saying "where's
Jack, where's
Jack." He came in at the end and
added comedy to what was
becoming a movie
plagued by death. the mixture of
laughter and death
seemed to provide
a good notion about life and helped in the digestion
of the pasta.
Third best
meal. Loaf of feta cheese and spinach
bread. I zoomed into
Lawrence with
expectations of Turkey on my noggin. I
arrived to ham
(which my system
does not digest particularly well).
there was lots of
pie. pie is something that i love to look at. and i love to watch
other people
eat. but it has never been something
that i love to
taste. i do love to ingest the images of others
going nuts over the
circular fruit
mixtures. On top of these, however, was
a loaf of feta
cheese and
spinach bread which i sneakily devoured when the rest of the
group was looking
at pies. This was tapped off with
wonderful fresh
strawberries. The scene was incredible an amazing mixture
of faces and
names and
personalities underneath them. bridge
without bullets was a
nice touch. a walk with Lieutenant Lena was a grand
dessert.
Next Best
Meal. And this is great too. Chicken burritos. definitely
not from taco
bell. everything pieced together
perfectly. just the
right amount of
cheese. the chicken and cheeses blended
into one taste
that i'd not
quite seen hit my stomach before. the
difficulty with this
meal is that I
was completely distracted by Beat-L posts and forgot what
i was eating it
and just completely forgot that i was going to eat more
of them.
best snack --
some goose thing.
so there are the
cuisine reviews from one with no sense of taste. no
sense of food
really. I have to put "Eat" on
my lists of things to do
each day or i
completely forget to include food in my daily diet.
rumors of trip
diaries may be over-stated. I jotted
notes here and
there. i might be able to dig a thing or two out and
flesh out the
memories into
something that could pass as a diary.
lots of gas mileage
reports and
whatnot.
looking forward
to a busy day on the Beat-L. If everyone
hungry for
more Beat-L stuff
sends something to the List it could end up being a
hell of a weekend
(it is Saturday isn't it?)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:32:46 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
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Jerry Cimino
wrote:
>
> I agree with
Malcs... seems to me there are plenty of
Fucked up,
>
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy, geniuses out there...
>
> "Even
in heaven they don't sing all the time..."
>
> Jerry Cimino
And I agree with
both of you. It's easy to romanticize
the famous and
dead. Looking back at Jack's record he may have not
been a great
bargain for the
women in his life--loveable as he no doubt was.
Certainly we the
living can be at least as fucked up and have some charm
as well.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:18:31 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: epiphany in Kerouac
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I have not read a
lot of Kerouac and am now rereading On the Road. It's
been many years
since my first reading of it. Last
night, I came to the
part where he is
hungry and alone in San Francisco, walking the streets,
seemingly
deserted by Dean, he sees an old woman in the window of a
fish-'n-chips
joint who gives him a terrified look, which brings on a
flow of thought
in his head which I would characterize as an epiphany:
"I wanted to
go back and leer at my strange Dickensian mother in the hash
joint. I tingled all over from head to foot. It seemed I had a whole
host of memories
leading back to 1750 in England and that I was in San
Francisco now
only in another life and in another body.
'No,' that woman
seemed to say
with her terrified glance, 'don't come back and plague your
honest,
hard-working mother. You are no longer
like a son to me--and
like your father,
my first husband. 'Ere this kindly Greek
took pity on
me.' (The
proprietor was a Greek with hairy arms.) 'You are no good,
inclined to
drunkenness and routs and final disgrace robbery of the
fruits of my
'umble labors in the hashery. O son! did
you not ever go on
your knees and
pray for deliverance for all your sins and scoundrel's
acts? Lost Boy! Depart! Do not haunt my soul; I
have done well
forgetting you. Reopen no old wounds, be as if you had never
returned
and looked in to
me--to see my laboring humilities, sullen, unloved,
mean-minded son
of my flesh. Son! Son!' It made me think
of the Big Pop
vision in Graetna
with Old Bull. And just for a moment I
had reached the
point of ecstasy
that I always wanted to reach, which was the complete
step across
chronological time into timeless shadows, and wonderment in
the bleakness of
the mortal realm, and the sensation of death kicking at
my heels to move
on, with a phantom dogging its own heels, and myself
hurrying to a
plank where all the angels dove off and flew into the holy
void of uncreated
emptiness, the potent and inconceivable radiancies
shining bright in
bright Mind Essence, innumerable lotuslands falling
open in the magic
mothswarm of heaven. I could hear an
incredible
seething roar
which wasn't in my ear but everywhere and had nothing to do
with sounds. I realized that I had died and been reborn
numberless times
but just didn't
remember especially because of the transitions from life
to death and back
to life are so ghostly easy, a magical action for
naught, like
falling asleep and waking up again a million times, the
utter casualness
and deep ignorance of it. I realized it
was only
because of the
stability of the intrinsic Mind that these ripples of
birth and death
took place, like the action of wind on a sheet of pure,
serene,
mirror-like water. I felt sweet,
swinging bliss, like a big shot
of heroin in the
mainline vein; like a gulp of wine late in the afternoon
and it makes you
shudder; my feet tingled. I thought I
was going to die
the very next
moment. But I didn't die, and walked
four miles and picked
up ten long butts
and took them back to Marylou's hotel room and poured
their tobacco in
my old pipe and lit up. I was too young
to know what
had
happened..."
I guess what I
want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
in his writing,
and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
knowledge, or if he
was just following the stream of what others were
doing in
literature. Reminds one of James Joyce,
and even Wordsworth
("our birth
is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
later works build
on the kind of epiphanic awakening?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:26:41 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
I think this
passage is an interesting example of how Kerouac incorporated some
of his Buddhist studies into his fiction. The publication of Some of the Dhar
ma in September
should provide us with a lot of material for further study.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:40:26 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
MIME-Version: 1.0
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liked the ku's
(high) :
the last one made
methink of whitmans SO Long pome:
"Camerado,
this is no book,
Who touches this
touches a man,
(Is it night? are
we here together alone?)
It is I you hold
and who holds you,
I spring from the
pages into your arms--deceasa calls me forth." WW
thats how part of
it goes, so forthsoon so long
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Wed, 11 Jun
1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
> I love Jack
Kerouac. Why can't I find any men like him alive today? Fucked
> up,
intellectual, hard-assed, tender, goofy, genius..... Damn. Anyway, I
> really love his
American Haikus. Here are a couple of my own, inspired by him:
> My Grandpa dyes his hair.
> He fucked up.
> Now it's purple.
>
>
> Every night I fall asleep
> with a dead author
> in my hands.
>
> --Sara Feustle
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:34:43 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: lurker #254
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hello folks,
I've been lurking for about four days
now...this is a ....unique
place. I've been reading some Kerouac and have found
his literary
novelties of
interest...moreso than his novels; however, I'll with hold
final judgment
until I read more of his works for breadth.
Anyhow...just
letting you know I'm here in the shadows...and have
finally read the
instructions on how to send messages (directions...
always a boon!)
ok...some
commentaries of no significance whatsoever:
1. Excrement enthusiasts *L*...I think it is a
rather *ahem* piss-poor
analogy for
creation. You might look to Swift...the
father of all
shit! However, for creation, usually it is breath
that is associated
with genius and
creation...inspiration...divine breath... not divine
shit. But..if you are an obsequious brown-nosing Beat
fan...then by all
means...look at
it as metaphoric gold...but I'll pan it...thank you
much. Your comments have made me tinkle with
laughter....a watershed
moment in
literary-email
2. Kerouac as sex object.......EWWWW! I read On the Road
recently...and
prompted a discusision in the faculty lounge.
The
results were
interesting. Those coming of age in the
sixties and
seventies revered
the novel...were inspired..got dewy-eyed and such,
remembering those
glorious days of youth. Those from the
eighties
thought *gasp*
Hitchhiked? indiscriminate sex? Dean as a hero? Gack!
Then the Gen-Xers
had found the novel again. Interesting?
(ok...maybe
not, but I
appreciated the novel for reasons not obvious to the others)
Anyhow...to the
woman who lusts after Kerouac...Try to get over a dead
idol...(It took
me a while to displace my lust for Ben Franklin, but I
did it....and
only tremble a bit now at the sight of lightning and
C-notes) Avoid Roads.
Find a nice demented unhappy
intellect at your
nearest hip
coffeeshop...
3. okay okay...I don't really have a 3
Anyhow...now that
I've made my appearance, I will try to jump into the
fray and fray and
jangle nerves (I don't worship the beats...and...TS
Eliot is a much
better poet) and drop the phrase dingle-dangle every so
often for
everyone's amusement.
*grin*
this will be
interesting
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:49:31 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A05997.143@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
what i see in
Kerouac's a lot and many other's writing is that
Everything
can be an
epiphany.
from,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
listenin to tHE
bOSS
"We busted
outta class had to get away from those fools
We learned more
from three minute record baby than we ever learned in
school" bruce springsteen
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> I have not
read a lot of Kerouac and am now rereading On the Road. It's
> been many
years since my first reading of it. Last
night, I came to the
> part where
he is hungry and alone in San Francisco, walking the streets,
> seemingly
deserted by Dean, he sees an old woman in the window of a
>
fish-'n-chips joint who gives him a terrified look, which brings on a
> flow of
thought in his head which I would characterize as an epiphany:
>
> "I
wanted to go back and leer at my strange Dickensian mother in the hash
> joint. I tingled all over from head to foot. It seemed I had a whole
> host of
memories leading back to 1750 in England and that I was in San
> Francisco
now only in another life and in another body.
'No,' that woman
> seemed to
say with her terrified glance, 'don't come back and plague your
> honest,
hard-working mother. You are no longer
like a son to me--and
> like your
father, my first husband. 'Ere this
kindly Greek took pity on
> me.' (The
proprietor was a Greek with hairy arms.) 'You are no good,
> inclined to
drunkenness and routs and final disgrace robbery of the
> fruits of my
'umble labors in the hashery. O son! did
you not ever go on
> your knees
and pray for deliverance for all your sins and scoundrel's
> acts? Lost Boy! Depart! Do not haunt my soul; I
have done well
> forgetting
you. Reopen no old wounds, be as if you
had never returned
> and looked
in to me--to see my laboring humilities, sullen, unloved,
> mean-minded
son of my flesh. Son! Son!' It made me
think of the Big Pop
> vision in Graetna
with Old Bull. And just for a moment I
had reached the
> point of
ecstasy that I always wanted to reach, which was the complete
> step across
chronological time into timeless shadows, and wonderment in
> the
bleakness of the mortal realm, and the sensation of death kicking at
> my heels to
move on, with a phantom dogging its own heels, and myself
> hurrying to
a plank where all the angels dove off and flew into the holy
> void of
uncreated emptiness, the potent and inconceivable radiancies
> shining
bright in bright Mind Essence, innumerable lotuslands falling
> open in the
magic mothswarm of heaven. I could hear
an incredible
> seething
roar which wasn't in my ear but everywhere and had nothing to do
> with
sounds. I realized that I had died and
been reborn numberless times
> but just
didn't remember especially because of the transitions from life
> to death and
back to life are so ghostly easy, a magical action for
> naught, like
falling asleep and waking up again a million times, the
> utter
casualness and deep ignorance of it. I
realized it was only
> because of
the stability of the intrinsic Mind that these ripples of
> birth and
death took place, like the action of wind on a sheet of pure,
> serene,
mirror-like water. I felt sweet,
swinging bliss, like a big shot
> of heroin in
the mainline vein; like a gulp of wine late in the afternoon
> and it makes
you shudder; my feet tingled. I thought
I was going to die
> the very
next moment. But I didn't die, and
walked four miles and picked
> up ten long
butts and took them back to Marylou's hotel room and poured
> their
tobacco in my old pipe and lit up. I was
too young to know what
> had
happened..."
>
> I guess what
I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
> in his
writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
> knowledge,
or if he was just following the stream of what others were
> doing in
literature. Reminds one of James Joyce,
and even Wordsworth
> ("our
birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
> later works
build on the kind of epiphanic awakening?
> DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:58:27 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments: To:
Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us>
In-Reply-To: <339FDED4.50FE@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
welcome aboard --
at times you
might get sick of the rocking back and forth, back and
forth, so feel
free to lean (but too far) over the edge at times for some
salty clean air,
overall, though,
the SS Beat-list has a mighty crew of drunken pirates
who singing
diddies of experience, wisdom and bullshit. and the voyage is
awakening...
adios,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> hello folks,
> I've been lurking for about four days
now...this is a ....unique
> place. I've been reading some Kerouac and have found
his literary
> novelties of
interest...moreso than his novels; however, I'll with hold
> final
judgment until I read more of his works for breadth.
>
Anyhow...just letting you know I'm here in the shadows...and have
> finally read
the instructions on how to send messages (directions...
> always a
boon!)
> ok...some
commentaries of no significance whatsoever:
>
> 1. Excrement enthusiasts *L*...I think it is a
rather *ahem* piss-poor
> analogy for
creation. You might look to Swift...the
father of all
> shit! However, for creation, usually it is breath
that is associated
> with genius
and creation...inspiration...divine breath... not divine
> shit. But..if you are an obsequious brown-nosing
Beat fan...then by all
> means...look
at it as metaphoric gold...but I'll pan it...thank you
> much. Your comments have made me tinkle with
laughter....a watershed
> moment in
literary-email
>
> 2. Kerouac as sex object.......EWWWW! I read On the Road
>
recently...and prompted a discusision in the faculty lounge. The
> results were
interesting. Those coming of age in the
sixties and
> seventies
revered the novel...were inspired..got dewy-eyed and such,
> remembering
those glorious days of youth. Those from
the eighties
> thought
*gasp* Hitchhiked? indiscriminate sex? Dean as a hero? Gack!
> Then the
Gen-Xers had found the novel again.
Interesting? (ok...maybe
> not, but I
appreciated the novel for reasons not obvious to the others)
> Anyhow...to
the woman who lusts after Kerouac...Try to get over a dead
> idol...(It
took me a while to displace my lust for Ben Franklin, but I
> did
it....and only tremble a bit now at the sight of lightning and
>
C-notes) Avoid Roads. Find a
nice demented unhappy intellect at your
> nearest hip
coffeeshop...
>
> 3. okay okay...I don't really have a 3
>
> Anyhow...now
that I've made my appearance, I will try to jump into the
> fray and
fray and jangle nerves (I don't worship the beats...and...TS
> Eliot is a
much better poet) and drop the phrase dingle-dangle every so
> often for
everyone's amusement.
> *grin*
> this will be
interesting
> Barb
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:52:53 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
In a message
dated 97-06-12 14:26:48 EDT, you write:
<<
I agree with Malcs... seems to me there are plenty of Fucked up,
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy,
geniuses out there...
"Even in heaven they don't sing all the
time..."
Jerry Cimino >>
Yeah but they're
not all as good looking.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:51:58 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
DEAR friends,
amazingly I found
that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
when he changed
his name? and why?
---
yrs
Rinaldo
* a not competent
beat is a beet? *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:04:42 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: John Cage, "Writing through
Howl" (1984)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
John Cage,
"Writing through Howl" (1984)
mAdness
coLd-water
fLats
thE
braiNs
throuGh
wIth
aNd
academieS
Burning
monEy
maRijuana
niGht
After
endLess
cLoud
thE
motioNless
Green
joyrIde
suN
aShcan
Brain
drainEd of
bRilliance
niGht
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/cage-ginsberg.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:10:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970612235158.0068b0e4@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:51 PM
6/12/97 +0200, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>DEAR friends,
>amazingly I
found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
>when he
changed his name? and why?
>---
>yrs
>Rinaldo
>* a not
competent beat is a beet? *
Actually, his
real name was Jean-Louis Kerouac. I don't know when he
changed it or
why. Wasn't "Jack" a popular nickname for "John," though
back
then? Anybody
know?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:16:55 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970612235158.0068b0e4@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
rinaldo
kerouac's name is
jean kerouac, which translates into engish roughly as
john. jack is
slang for john (god knows why)
therefore
jean=john=jack kerouac
i think when he
started going to skool he started going by john (more
english). is that
right?
yrs
derek
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> DEAR
friends,
> amazingly I
found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
> when he
changed his name? and why?
> ---
> yrs
> Rinaldo
> * a not
competent beat is a beet? *
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:28:40 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spoken Word
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Try falling
asleep listening to Kerouac's spoken-word albums sometime. It's
a really
wonderful, eerie feeling, especially with headphones. --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:51:44 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Hunter
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought I'd
report back on my findings from the Late Late Show (Sorry
Patricia that i
didn't respond to your message in time, I just got it).
It was so FUNNY. Conan went out shooting and drinking with
Hunter S.
Thomson and they
blew up all kindsa stuff in the name of art.
Guns kept
getting bigger
and bigger and they kept drinking more and more whiskey.
Eventually ended
up blowing apart signs with grenade launchers.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:51:49 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I guess what
I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
>in his
writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
>knowledge, or
if he was just following the stream of what others were
>doing in
literature. Reminds one of James Joyce,
and even Wordsworth
>("our
birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
>later works
build on the kind of epiphanic awakening?
>DC
>
I think the use
of epiphany was a very conscious decision by Jack. I
believe that many
of his books revolve around the quest for Nirvana or
Enlightenment or
"that moment when you know all and everything is decided
forever." I think Jack was really into this quest long
before he was turned
onto Buddhism and
i think that was one of the things about Buddhism that he
really dug. I would bet that the narrator in every novel
written by Jack
has some kind of
an epiphany during some course of the book.
I know the
endings of both
Big Sur and Desolation Angels seem kind of epiphanic (my
word). Dharma Bums is full of epiphanys: "You can't fall off a mountain."
On the Road has
its own share, including the one you mentioned, Diane. IT
IT IT. What is "IT" other than
Nirvana? Visions of Cody has them also.
Satori in Paris
is named after his "sudden glimpse of understanding" in
France. I think this is one of the reasons that i
love Jack so much, he was
always searching
for The End, always searching for meaning in a world that
seems so devoid
of it at times. He was always thinking
of something bigger,
something
universal.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:40:18 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I remember hearing John F. Kennedy's name said
as "JACK"
as well. So, this would probably support
the theory that Jack
was a nickname
for John, but I'm not sure.
At 04:16 PM
6/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>rinaldo
>kerouac's
name is jean kerouac, which translates into engish roughly as
>john. jack is
slang for john (god knows why)
>therefore
jean=john=jack kerouac
>i think when
he started going to skool he started going by john (more
>english). is
that right?
>yrs
>derek
>On Thu, 12
Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>>
>> DEAR
friends,
>> amazingly
I found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
>> when he
changed his name? and why?
>> ---
>> yrs
>> Rinaldo
>> * a not
competent beat is a beet? *
>>
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
------------------------------------------------------
I am the one who lacks a COOL signature file!
Greg Elwell-1997
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:16:40 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments: To:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33A0169D.2B3B@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Certainly we
the living can be at least as fucked up and have some charm
> as well.
I must adjoin a
comment. comment.
seriously, men
have just as much right to be neurotic, moody, whatever,
as wimmin do.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:26:14 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A05997.143@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> the very
next moment. But I didn't die, and
walked four miles and picked
> up ten long
butts and took them back to Marylou's hotel room and poured
> their
tobacco in my old pipe and lit up. I was
too young to know what
> had
happened..."
>
> I guess what
I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
> in his
writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
> knowledge,
or if he was just following the stream of what others were
> doing in
literature. Reminds one of James Joyce,
and even Wordsworth
> ("our
birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
> later works
build on the kind of epiphanic
awakening?
I think he sort
of grew through these things, you know?
This one had
your ephinany,
others had classical teachings. I really
like Desolation
Angels. But read Dr. Sax. It's hugely autobiographical. I think I
spotted the roots
of his homosexual leanings. I wonder if
Jack saw that
when he wrote
that. It's nice. His books are nice to re-read. And
again. Like Twain. Or Hemingway.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:32:28 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970612181045.00693a68@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
> Actually,
his real name was Jean-Louis Kerouac. I don't know when he
> changed it
or why. Wasn't "Jack" a popular nickname for "John," though
back
> then?
Anybody know?
Yup. Yup.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:10:41 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Jack
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Jack...definitely
a common nick for John...saw it in the baby books I
perused when
having the boys a few years back....you have to consider
the
nicks....Unfortunately hubby vetoed the idea of naming my son
Brock....then he
could have gone through life as Brock Wirtz (you have
to let it roll
off your tongue...and taste it a bit) *grin*
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:21:21 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: lAsT cHaNgE in beat-L (the voices &
the echoes)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DEAR friends,
1^ thanx alot for
gimme information 'bout JK's name... work in progress.
2^ 'cuz recent
change in the politcs
of the Beat-List: i get 2 message:
one from the replayer
& one from the B-list,
i think it's 2B a nice feature,
no other mailing list can do it,
only the beats can do it!
great!,
love&happiness,
yrs Rinaldo
from
venice,italy.
* a not competent
beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:49:16 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments: To:
Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970612221447.28809A-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:16 PM
6/12/97 -0400, Sisyphus wrote:
>On Thu, 12
Jun 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
>
>>
Certainly we the living can be at least as fucked up and have some charm
>> as well.
>
>I must adjoin
a comment. comment.
>
>
Thnak you for
your comment. comment. *grin*
>
>
>
>seriously,
men have just as much right to be neurotic, moody, whatever,
>as wimmin do.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:56:27 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Pome
Comments: cc:
jtrumm@bgnet.bgsu.edu
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Gift. Mist.
Mist. Gift.
Two words
so lovely in English
so fugly in German
one meaning poison,
the other, shit.
Misty morning dew.
Birthday Gift.
A light, fragrant Mist.
Giftwrap. Giftshop.
Sunbeams thru the Mist.
Nature's silent Gift.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:17:37 +0200
Reply-To: Moritz Rossbach
<moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Moritz Rossbach
<moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.16.19970612195502.1b1fd89e@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hi leitha
(matt?!) and all you beat weirdos!
this sounds like
fun, good ole hunter is producing himself again, please
tell more about
it. was it live ? in tv? anyway, i guess this was
everything else
than p.c.!
--------------sincerely
moritz rossbach
saarbruecken, germany
moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de
http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------
On Thu, 12 Jun
1997, Leitha Sackmann wrote:
> Thought I'd
report back on my findings from the Late Late Show (Sorry
> Patricia
that i didn't respond to your message in time, I just got it).
>
> It was so
FUNNY. Conan went out shooting and
drinking with Hunter S.
> Thomson and
they blew up all kindsa stuff in the name of art. Guns kept
> getting
bigger and bigger and they kept drinking more and more whiskey.
> Eventually
ended up blowing apart signs with grenade launchers.
>
> matt
>
>
>
*****************************************************************
>
>
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision
> for the limits of the world."
>
> Arthur
Schopenhauer
>
>
*****************************************************************
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:25:55 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SGI.3.95.970613141235.21585B-100000@sbustd.stud.uni-s b.de>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding:
quoted-printable
DAmmit! I fell
asleep again reading Kerouac's _Book of Blues_ and mised it.
%$#@^&%. Hey,
Moritz, kann ich mit ihnen mein Deutsch =FCben? --Sara Feustle
At 02:17 PM
6/13/97 +0200, Moritz Rossbach wrote:
>hi leitha
(matt?!) and all you beat weirdos!
>this sounds
like fun, good ole hunter is producing himself again, please
>tell more
about it. was it live ? in tv? anyway, i guess this was
>everything
else than p.c.!
>
>--------------sincerely
> moritz rossbach
> saarbruecken, germany
> moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de
>
http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------
>
>On Thu, 12
Jun 1997, Leitha Sackmann wrote:
>
>> Thought
I'd report back on my findings from the Late Late Show (Sorry
>> Patricia
that i didn't respond to your message in time, I just got it).
>>
>> It was
so FUNNY. Conan went out shooting and
drinking with Hunter S.
>> Thomson
and they blew up all kindsa stuff in the name of art. Guns kept
>> getting
bigger and bigger and they kept drinking more and more whiskey.
>>
Eventually ended up blowing apart signs with grenade launchers.
>>
>> matt
>>
>>
>>
*****************************************************************
>>
>>
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision
>> for the limits of the world."
>>
>> Arthur
Schopenhauer
>>
>>
*****************************************************************
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:16:55 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain
>I guess what
I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany in his
writing,
>I think the
use of epiphany was a very conscious decision by Jack... He was
always thinking of something bigger,
>something
universal.
Dear God, yes.
Sadly, Jack looked for his epiphanies everywhere, found them
occasionally, but never achieved
anything
permanent - I think if he had in some way he mightn't have drank
himself to death.
> I was too
young to know what had happened..."
Ironically, as
Jack got older, he realized what had happened but realized too
that it was harder and harder to
recreate that
experience. Reminds me of the scene in Desolation Angels where he
looks at Peter Orlovsky bouncing
around and
digging the world, but he knows that he can't go back to that "On the
Road" stage of his life again.
(Although I don't
think he ever fully reconciled himself to this.)
Mark Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:28:00 -0600
Reply-To: Sonya Kolowrat
<skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sonya Kolowrat
<skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>
Organization:
MainStream Consulting Group, Inc
Subject: Re: Jack/ Ti Jean
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
IF one were to drive from The US to Quebec
via Vermont, there is a
little town just inside the Canadian
border in Quebec called "Ti
Jean", which was the child Jack's
nickname. It means "Little John" in
french. I had a dream once about Jack and
I was calling out "Ti Jean,
Ti
Jean". Driving through the town on the way to the city of
debauchery (Montreal) had me thinking
about Jack for a couple of
hours!
-Sonya
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Jack
Author: WIRTZ@SMTP (Mike & Barbara Wirtz)
{wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US} at MHS
Date: 6/12/97 5:10 PM
Jack...definitely
a common nick for John...saw it in the baby books I
perused when
having the boys a few years back....you have to consider
the
nicks....Unfortunately hubby vetoed the idea of naming my son
Brock....then he
could have gone through life as Brock Wirtz (you have
to let it roll
off your tongue...and taste it a bit) *grin*
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:20:49 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Ray Bremser
I remember asking
Allen Ginsberg how Ray Bremser was doing. This might have
been in '93. He
said he hadn't from Ray in about a year, which was when he last
called. ray had
called Allen and said first off that he wasn't drunk and he
wasn't asking for
money. They talked for awhile when finally Ray admitted he
was drunk and
then asked for money. Allen sent him a couple of hundred bucks.
I always thought
it a funny little story.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:15:14 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970613082555.006957a8@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Please, somebody
say they got this on tape??
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:24:04 -0400
Reply-To: lcrev@law.emory.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lorri Alice
<lcrev@LAW.EMORY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=gb2312
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Alex Howard
wrote:
>
> Please,
somebody say they got this on tape??
>
>
------------------
Mee too! I'll
send someone a blank tape/postage & any other interesting
tidbits I can dig
up....
Lorri lcrev@law.emory.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:38:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
MARK NOFERI
wrote:
>
>
> Dear God,
yes. Sadly, Jack looked for his epiphanies everywhere, found them
> occasionally, but never achieved
> anything
permanent - I think if he had in some way he mightn't have drank
> himself to death.
>
>
> Ironically,
as Jack got older, he realized what had happened but realized too
> that it was harder and harder to
> recreate
that experience. Reminds me of the scene in Desolation Angels where
he
> looks at Peter Orlovsky bouncing
> around and
digging the world, but he knows that he can't go back to that "On
the
> Road" stage of his life again.
> (Although I
don't think he ever fully reconciled himself to this.)
>
> Mark Noferi
I have often
wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched
the wonderfulness
of the universe in this way. Why was he
able to write
about such things
but not be more positive in living his own life?
Ginsberg went
through much darkness but remained positive in living and
in writing.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:18:33 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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Mark Noferi....
you wrote that Kerouac became darker as he
aged....Strangely,
I see that darkness in On the Road. It is already
ostensible. Paradoxically, there is something tragic in a
quest that
really doesn't
discover what he seeks. Sure the journey
itself is full
of life and
experience, but there is a definite undercurrent of pathos.
>
> MARK NOFERI
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear
God, yes. Sadly, Jack looked for his epiphanies everywhere, found them
> > occasionally, but never achieved
> >
anything permanent - I think if he had in some way he mightn't have drank
> > himself to death.
> >
> >
> >
Ironically, as Jack got older, he realized what had happened but realized
too
> > that it was harder and harder to
> >
recreate that experience. Reminds me of the scene in Desolation Angels where
> he
> > looks at Peter Orlovsky bouncing
> > around
and digging the world, but he knows that he can't go back to that "On
> the
> > Road" stage of his life again.
> >
(Although I don't think he ever fully reconciled himself to this.)
> >
> > Mark
Noferi
>
> I have often
wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched
> the
wonderfulness of the universe in this way.
Why was he able to write
> about such
things but not be more positive in living his own life?
> Ginsberg
went through much darkness but remained positive in living and
> in writing.
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:52:16 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:52:53 -0400
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
American Haikus
In a message
dated 97-06-12 14:26:48 EDT, you write:
<< I agree
with Malcs... seems to me there are
plenty of Fucked up,
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy,
geniuses out there...
"Even in heaven they don't sing all the
time..."
Jerry Cimino >>
>Yeah but
they're not all as good looking.
You need to have
them all be good looking? I love hearing sexist remarks
from women, if
only to remind myself that equal opportunity oppression is
still alive and
kicking. Still, I find my comment from yesterday is still
applicable: You
must not be looking too hard. Of course, the $64,000
question is: Are
you a hot little number yourself?
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:56:34 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A1A1AF.5F52@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 13 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> I have often
wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched
> the
wonderfulness of the universe in this way.
Why was he able to write
> about such
things but not be more positive in living his own life?
> Ginsberg
went through much darkness but remained positive in living and
> in writing.
I think your
answer lies in Kerouac's Catholicism.
The Church teaches
guilt. Lifelong damnation for simply being
born. In that Jack was
raised as a
Catholic - and a French Canuk RC, as well - he simply never
got over
that. (I was raised a RC, too, and am
from a Canuk family.
But I'm younger
than Jack by almost 20 years [I was born in '41], so in
a way, I was
"saved" by the Hippie Years.)
And there's his fixation on
his Mother. That also certainly contributed to his
addiction to booze.
Then, you have to
take into account the times in which he lived.
Take a
look at American
life as portrayed by HEmingway & Fitzgerald. Booze.
Booze
everywhere. And tacitly approved by
society, as well. The guy
was a psychic
basket case.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:40:22 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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At 02:17 PM
6/13/97 +0200, Moritz Rossbach wrote:
>hi leitha
(matt?!) and all you beat weirdos!
>this sounds
like fun, good ole hunter is producing himself again, please
>tell more
about it. was it live ? in tv? anyway, i guess this was
>everything
else than p.c.!
>
>--------------sincerely
> moritz rossbach
Hey Moritz. (it's matt, im on my mom's mail though for
the summer).
Unfortunately, i
didn't get it on tape. (sorry all). I forget what the
name of Hunter's
new book is, but it was promoting that.
And they'd strap
balloons full of
paint onto the books and then shoot the balloon, sending
paint all over
the place. It was on the Conan O'Brian
Show which is a late
night talk show
here. Hunter was drinking glasses of
whiskey and Conan was
sipping on it in
shot glasses.
It was lots of
fun, but there wasn't much talking; it was pretty much all
firing and
drinking.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To believe
in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:40:25 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments: To:
wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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At 09:18 AM
6/13/97 +0000, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>Mark
Noferi.... you wrote that Kerouac became darker as he
>aged....Strangely,
I see that darkness in On the Road. It is already
>ostensible. Paradoxically, there is something tragic in a
quest that
>really
doesn't discover what he seeks. Sure the
journey itself is full
>of life and
experience, but there is a definite undercurrent of pathos.
For me, it's very
interesting (although saddening) when i reread OTR because
it just seems
more and more tragic the more i learn about Jack. It was easy
to brush all of
the awful remarks aside when i read it the first time, but
knowing so much
more about the tragedy that was Jack's life, it becomes much
less of a
happy-go lucky book and more depressing.
VoC seems to be a much
more upbeat
account of the same time period.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To believe
in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe in
god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:58:49 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: well
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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d
i
s o
cia
ti ves
make
y
o
u
lone
ly
why
can't we see
th
at
?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:27:14 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: epiphany in Kerouac
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MATT HANNAN
wrote:
>
> Jack drank
so much because he was an alcoholic.
Although an alcoholic's
> drinking pattern
may change considerably during their drinking "career" no
> amount of
"wonderfulness" can make an alcoholic stop drinking.
>
> Not meant to
be a flame, I do see your point.
>
> Have a great
day.
>
> Matt (a
recovering alcoholic (and an unrepentent Jack-aholic))
>
Matt, I see your
point too but have to disagree. The fact
that he was an
alcoholic does
not mean that he could not have changed his behavior, or
there would be no
such people as recovering alcoholics. Even a moment of
enlightenment can
forever change a person's life. And to
be able to
write about
epiphanies, such as the passage I quoted in OTR, makes it
seem even more
tragic. Now, I guess there is another
question here and
that is whether
all the epiphanies in his mind/writing were alcohol or
drug-induced,
i.e., did he need to be high in order to have these visions
and/or in order
to be able to write about them? That
path he could have
changed as
well. Here is a little of what Ginsberg
had to say about it
in Allen Verbatum,
"So he wrote
a long book called On the Road, and his project was to sit
down, using a
single piece of paper, like a teletype roll that he got
from the the
United Press office in New York (which is like hundreds and
hundreds of feet)
and sit down and type away as fast as he could
everything he
always thought of, going chronologically, about a series of
of cross-country
automobile trips he and a couple of buddies took, with
their girls, and
the grass they were smokin' in '48-'49-'50 and the
peyote they were
eating then, and the motel traveling salesmen they met,
the small-town
redneck gas station attendants they stole gas from, the
small-town lonely
waitresses they seduced, the confusions they went
through, and the
visionary benzedrine hallucinations they had from
driving a long
time on benzedrine, several days, until they began getting
visions of
shrouded strangers along the road saying 'Woe on America,' and
disappearing, flitting like phantoms..."
He also talks
about Visions of Cody, "Visionary moments being the
structure of the
novel--in other words each section of chapter being a
specific
epiphanous heartrending moment no matter where it fell in time,
and then going to
the center of that moment, the specific physical
description of
what was happening..."
I think what I am
saying is that epiphany can be a self-changing thing
and that yes,
touching the wonderfulness of a moment like that can indeed
change the
patterns of a person's life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:47:15 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments: To:
Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<01BC77DF.7EEB6660@sea-ts3-p09.wolfenet.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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I'm a GODDESS,
Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
said the fuckin'
"sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
At 09:52 AM
6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:52:53 -0400
>From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
>Subject: Re:
American Haikus
>
>In a message
dated 97-06-12 14:26:48 EDT, you write:
><< I
agree with Malcs... seems to me there
are plenty of Fucked up,
>
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy, geniuses out there...
>
> "Even
in heaven they don't sing all the time..."
>
> Jerry Cimino
>>
>
>>Yeah but
they're not all as good looking.
>
>You need to
have them all be good looking? I love hearing sexist remarks
>from women,
if only to remind myself that equal opportunity oppression is
>still alive
and kicking. Still, I find my comment from yesterday is still
>applicable:
You must not be looking too hard. Of course, the $64,000
>question is:
Are you a hot little number yourself?
>
>Malcs
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:34:09 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re:
epiphany in Kerouac
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Diane Carter
wrote:
Even a moment of
>
enlightenment can forever change a person's life. And to be able to
> write about
epiphanies, such as the passage I quoted in OTR, makes it
> seem even
more tragic. Now, I guess there is
another question here and
> that is
whether all the epiphanies in his mind/writing were alcohol or
>
drug-induced, i.e., did he need to be high in order to have these visions
> and/or in
order to be able to write about them?
> changed as
well. Here is a little of what Ginsberg
had to say about it
> in Allen
Verbatum,
> "So he
wrote a long book called On the Road, and his project was to sit
> down, using
a single piece of paper, like a teletype roll that he got
> from the the
United Press office in New York (which is like hundreds and
> hundreds of
feet) and sit down and type away as fast as he could
> everything
he always thought of, going chronologically, about a series of
> of
cross-country automobile trips he and a couple of buddies took, with
> their girls,
and the grass they were smokin' in '48-'49-'50 and the
> peyote they
were eating then, and the motel traveling salesmen they met,
> the
small-town redneck gas station attendants they stole gas from, the
> small-town
lonely waitresses they seduced, the confusions they went
> through, and
the visionary benzedrine hallucinations they had from
> driving a
long time on benzedrine, several days, until they began getting
> visions of
shrouded strangers along the road saying 'Woe on America,' and
> disappearing, flitting like phantoms..."
. .
>
> I think what
I am saying is that epiphany can be a self-changing thing
> and that
yes, touching the wonderfulness of a moment like that can indeed
> change the
patterns of a person's life.
> DC
Diane,
In some ways this
thread reminds me of one we had going a year or so
ago. The question
of why Jack drank? what would have a non alcholic Jack
been like? did he
need to be high to do what he did?, etc keep coming
back. They are good questions.
I think it is
important to seperate the questions somewhat.
Without a
doubt Jack was an
alcholic. But even if he were not I
think it is
impossible to
seperate altered states of mind from his work.
Did he
have to be loaded
to have ephiphanies?--probably not in my view.
Did he
need to be loaded
to write?--I would say yes. All the
evidence points
to the fact that
he wrote high--on coffee, grass, benzedrine, inhalers,
whatever. He liked to work fast and loose and he loved
uppers for
working--turn the
mind loose, lose the stage fright or writer's block or
whatever. Maybe
I'm forgetting important passages or unaware of things I
haven't read, but
I don't remember Jack talking much about being drunk
as a source of
his vision. He certainly writes about
being a drunk, as
in Big Sur when
it breaks your heart to watch him and Lew Welch in the
grips of their
demons. He talks about wine as liberator
and is so proud
of the way he
opened the wine jugs for the 6 Gallery reading, but the
booze high is
not what he writes about. Grass, peyote, benzedrine,
etc--these open
the doors of perception for him. Booze
just helped him
face life.
I would argue
that Jack's drinking was a life problem, not an artistic
one. Like most of us who are really aware, he had
those wonderful
ephiphanies. Can these ephiphanies save you?--maybe, but
not
necessarily. Depends on what you do after the flash. I leave
discussions of
the effect of alcholism to those who understand it. I am
not sure I accept
the disease metaphor for this problem, but I'll leave
that to
others. I don't think it helps to blame
the RC church or the
Eisenhower era or
anything else for Jack's inability to put the bottle
down. Some people can drink and stop. Some can't.
But it is
impossible for me to imagine Jack (or practically any Beat
writer) who
didn't depend partly on the inspiration that came from
drugs. Can't imagine my own mind without
acknowledging what drugs have
shown me
either. I suspect that is true of most
of us who are drawn to
these writers.
I live for ephipanies too. But I don't count on them to "save"
me.
Joyce is
preoccupied with that experience too, and tho not a drunk
doesn't come
across as a poster boy for mental health.
Just a slant from
the not particularly clean and sober perspective.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:44:23 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
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Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> I'm a
GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
> said the
fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
Dear Sara--
Since we're all
God's and Godesses lets all laugh a little.
But it you
Godesses want to
tell us how hard is it to find someone as wonderful as
Jack forgive us
Gods if we whine about how we're just making do with you
until we we find
Marilyn Monroe come back to life.
It's easy to love
a dead legend. Those of us who are alive
present more
problems. I think I'll spend the evening lusting for
Edith Piaf or
Janis Joplin.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:50:28 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
>I'm a
GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>said the
fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
I wasn't implying
that you were. I was just noticing that my remark was
applicable again
to the person who chimed in, therefore I was referring to
her, not you.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:22:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In the 50s when
Eliot was English dept cannon fodder I memorized all of
Prufrock. I have
used it off and on throughout my years in teaching. Mainly
because I think
it is a good period piece to acquaint young minds to the
existential
motive rather than assume existentialism is a part of their
conciousness as
it was in previous generations of intellectuals and probably
readers as well.
I found that poem particularly easy to dramatize.
By contrast even
though I am closer to the beat generation I can only
remember
Ginsberg's famous line in Howl and can quote a but a few phrases of
it. I was
Ginsberg when he recorded spontaneously Vortex Sutra coaching him
on some of the
localism and landmarks. The only line I remember from that is
How big a prick
has the President. He asked me to edit TV Baby which I
thought was an
unsuccessful poem from the start and I threw away entire pages
of it. He think
he was aghast. I don't know what he did with the poem after
that nor do I
remember any lines from it. I could
suppose one could infer
from this that
there might be something more to prosody than meets the ear.
Though Allen was a masterful teacher of
prosody and he was a great scholar,
a little known
time he had in Baltimore was when Pam and I found him a semi
seedy hotel on
Reade Street named the same as a Blake line in which he went
into retreat to
study Blake for weeks. A task indeed. If I'd studied Blake I
could remember
the name of that hotel. I guess I never thought most of
Blake's heady
crap was worth reading. I just flipped open my copy (actually
Phil Whalen's
copy) I see his notations on page 241 and overall marginalia
that he had
studied Blake as well. Maybe someone will know that hotel.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:36:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
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David-
Thought you might
find this interesting. Bob sent it to
me.
Apparently,
if you start Dark
Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
of
The Wizard of Oz,
the music and the movie match perfectly.
Have you
heard
of this?
>
>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:09:43 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:36 PM
6/13/97 -0500, RACE --- wrote:
>David-
>Thought you
might find this interesting. Bob sent it
to me.
>Apparently,
>if you start
Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
>of
>The Wizard of
Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly.
Have you
>heard
>of this?
>>
>>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
>
Hmmm. . .
I've actually
experienced this in person. It did seem
to match perfectly,
but i thought it
was just the pot.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To believe
in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:35:58 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
In-Reply-To: <33A21FE2.4713@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David Rhaesa
writes:
>David-
>Thought you
might find this interesting. Bob sent it
to me.
>Apparently,
>if you start
Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
>of
>The Wizard of
Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly.
Have you
>heard
>of this?
yes,
OZ was an underground magazine printed in
London 1966, on
the ground floor,
INK was another londoner magazine on the first
floor, same
building,
PINK is Floyd
yes,
* PLAY POWER *
>>
>>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:39:00 +0200
Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Daniel Brattemark
<danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>
Subject: Ginsberg for breakfast
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I almost choked
on my breakfast this morning. What, they're gonna talk
about Allen
Ginsberg on swedish radio. It was true, this woman talked
about the man she
had adored throughout her life. In the paper they
promised she
would let us hear Allen read Howl. That was not true, she
only played
Ballad of the Skeletons. Felt like a safe move, oh well, i'm
not complaining.
She saved my day. And it was on a show that all 100%
cotton swedish
housewifes listen to. Cool.
-daniel
--------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:07:30 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments: To:
Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@wolfenet.com>,
Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@wolfenet.com>
In-Reply-To: <01BC7833.0EB5EC40@sea-ts4-p55.wolfenet.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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Oh. Sorry. I
guess I forgot my Midol. Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
pardon the
bitchiness.:) I really am a nice person. No, really. *smile* --Sara
At 07:50 PM 6/13/97
-0700, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>>I'm a
GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>>said the
fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
>I wasn't
implying that you were. I was just noticing that my remark was
>applicable
again to the person who chimed in, therefore I was referring to
>her, not you.
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:53:13 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In the 50s
when Eliot was English dept cannon fodder I memorized all of
> Prufrock. I
have used it off and on throughout my years in teaching. Mainly
> because I
think it is a good period piece to acquaint young minds to the
> existential
motive rather than assume existentialism is a part of their
> conciousness
as it was in previous generations of intellectuals and probably
> readers as
well. I found that poem particularly easy to dramatize.
>
> By contrast
even though I am closer to the beat generation I can only
> remember
Ginsberg's famous line in Howl and can quote a but a few phrases of
> it. I was
Ginsberg when he recorded spontaneously Vortex Sutra coaching him
> on some of
the localism and landmarks. The only line I remember from that is
> How big a
prick has the President. He asked me to edit TV Baby which I
> thought was
an unsuccessful poem from the start and I threw away entire pages
> of it. He
think he was aghast. I don't know what he did with the poem after
> that nor do
I remember any lines from it. I could
suppose one could infer
> from this
that there might be something more to prosody than meets the ear.
> Though Allen was a masterful teacher of
prosody and he was a great scholar,
> a little
known time he had in Baltimore was when Pam and I found him a semi
> seedy hotel
on Reade Street named the same as a Blake line in which he went
> into retreat
to study Blake for weeks. A task indeed. If I'd studied Blake I
> could
remember the name of that hotel. I guess I never thought most of
> Blake's
heady crap was worth reading. I just flipped open my copy (actually
> Phil
Whalen's copy) I see his notations on page 241 and overall marginalia
> that he had
studied Blake as well. Maybe someone will know that hotel.
> Charles
Plymell
When I was in
college, which was 20 years ago, I read a lot of Blake. I
have books with
tons of notations in the margins, but while I remember
the way Blake
wrote, I could not for the life of me recall lines of a
single poem. The same with T.S. Eliot, I remember how he
wrote, and if
you recited poems
to me, either Prufrock or something from The Wasteland,
I would recognize
it. I also first read Howl during this
same timeframe,
and I was so
compelled by it that I memorized it.
When Allen died, I
couldn't make it
to any of the memorials so I decided to celebrate at
home by reciting
Howl. After twenty years, I still
remember every single
line of Howl, and
can recite all three parts from beginning to end.
Only can't do the
Holy, Holy footnote. So I think that
while Eliot may
be more pleasing
to the ear, it is not true that Ginsberg's words were
not truly
memorable. All writers end up with some
works that just aren't
so great,
especially a prolific writer. The thing
with Ginsberg is that
he continually
put himself out there, and his words could be inspiring
without thinking
about form. Eliot was too bound up with
form and
thinking
"poetically." And, lurker
#254, it's time to defend your
stance, that
"TS Eliot is a much better poet."
You can't just put that
sentence out
there without the "why." We're
waiting.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:29:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> In some ways
this thread reminds me of one we had going a year or so
> ago. The
question of why Jack drank? what would have a non alcholic Jack
> been like? did
he need to be high to do what he did?, etc keep coming
> back. They are good questions.
>
> I think it
is important to seperate the questions somewhat. Without a
> doubt Jack
was an alcholic. But even if he were not
I think it is
> impossible to
seperate altered states of mind from his work.
Did he
> have to be
loaded to have ephiphanies?--probably not in my view. Did he
> need to be
loaded to write?--I would say yes. All
the evidence points
> to the fact
that he wrote high--on coffee, grass, benzedrine, inhalers,
>
whatever. He liked to work fast and
loose and he loved uppers for
>
working--turn the mind loose, lose the stage fright or writer's block or
> whatever.
Maybe I'm forgetting important passages or unaware of things I
> haven't
read, but I don't remember Jack talking much about being drunk
> as a source
of his vision. He certainly writes about
being a drunk, as
> in Big Sur
when it breaks your heart to watch him and Lew Welch in the
> grips of
their demons. He talks about wine as
liberator and is so proud
> of the way
he opened the wine jugs for the 6 Gallery reading, but the
> booze high
is not what he writes about. Grass, peyote, benzedrine,
> etc--these
open the doors of perception for him.
Booze just helped him
> face life.
>
> I would
argue that Jack's drinking was a life problem, not an artistic
> one. Like most of us who are really aware, he had
those wonderful
>
ephiphanies. Can these ephiphanies save
you?--maybe, but not
>
necessarily. Depends on what you do
after the flash. I leave
> discussions
of the effect of alcholism to those who understand it. I am
> not sure I
accept the disease metaphor for this problem, but I'll leave
> that to
others. I don't think it helps to blame
the RC church or the
> Eisenhower
era or anything else for Jack's inability to put the bottle
> down. Some people can drink and stop. Some can't.
>
> But it is
impossible for me to imagine Jack (or practically any Beat
> writer) who
didn't depend partly on the inspiration that came from
> drugs. Can't imagine my own mind without
acknowledging what drugs have
> shown me
either. I suspect that is true of most
of us who are drawn to
> these
writers.
>
> I live
for ephipanies too. But I don't count on them to "save"
me.
> Joyce is
preoccupied with that experience too, and tho not a drunk
> doesn't come
across as a poster boy for mental health.
>
> Just a slant
from the not particularly clean and sober perspective.
>
> J Stauffer
James,
I have to say I understand
and agree with most everything you said.
Most
of us that have a
realy affinity for beat literature do so because in
many personal
ways we identify with what they were/are writing about. I
also do not
believe that one can separate art from life.
As others have
said in other
posts, who would want to know a non-alcoholic Jack? If you
separate that
fact from his writing you are not any longer talking about
the same
person. In the same way you cannot talk
about a Burroughs or a
Ginsberg without
drugs. But you also do not have to
equate
self-destruction
with art or altered states of conscious with
self-destruction. Maybe that leads to some more questions about
how
Ginsberg and
Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.
And questions about
the differences
between the influences of Buddhism on Jack and Allen. In
a way I wish that
an epiphany had saved him so that he could have lived
to write more.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:31:26 -0400
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re:
lurker #254
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> that he had
studied Blake as well. Maybe someone will know that hotel.
The web site
http://www.lexmark.com/data/poem/poem1.html#bbb has
the following
Blake poems...
(1757 - 1827) English Poet, Artist, Mystic
Songs of Innocence and Experience (46
poems) (BB)
The Tiger "...In what distant
deeps or skies Burnt the fire of
thine eyes?"
A Poison Tree (CK)
A Divine Image (CK)
Introduction, from Songs of Innocence
The Echoing Green "...The sun
does descend, And our sports
have an
end..."
Auguries of Innocence "...To see
a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a
Wild Flower..."
Jerusalem
The Clod and the Pebble
This site
http://www.lexmark.com/data/poem/poem.html with 2,658 Poems
from 401 Poets
adds new poets and poems weekly or so. It is linked to
CELM's Literary
Links....
http://www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
Thnaks
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:55:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: American Haikus
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: American Haikus
Date: 97-06-14 12:55:48 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
In a message
dated 97-06-14 09:08:26 EDT, you write:
<<
Oh. Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol.
Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
pardon the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice
person. No, really. *smile*
--Sara
At 07:50 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence
wrote:
>>I'm a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe,
but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>>said the fuckin' "sexist
remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
>I wasn't implying that you were. I was
just noticing that my remark was
>applicable again to the person who chimed
in, therefore I was referring to
>her, not you. >>
look, I made the
"sexist remark" i admit it. So
hang me. It was just a
joke, who could
possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
believe that
offended someone. I think Malcs needs to
take a big, fat,
extra-strength
chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
harm in noticing
that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
more highly of
them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
notice a
beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
by on the
street? Does it mean he thinks they're
better than others? I hope
not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
country where
everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
differences
between people are a taboo subject. If I
notice that someone's
pretty or has a
big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
anything I say or
do. But THEY know it.
I just wanna say
one thing: GET REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
your face?
The truth is,
everyone is different. Some people suck,
some are really cool.
Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond
hair. Some have
darker/lighter/frecklier
skin than others. Variety is the spice
of life. Why
pretend it
doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
long as they're
basically sweet inside. So what's my
crime?
-------------------------------love
and peace and beauty---------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:56:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: haikus and sexism?
In a message
dated 97-06-14 09:08:26 EDT, you write:
<<
Oh. Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol.
Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
pardon the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice
person. No, really. *smile*
--Sara
At 07:50 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence
wrote:
>>I'm a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe,
but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>>said the fuckin' "sexist
remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
>I wasn't implying that you were. I was
just noticing that my remark was
>applicable again to the person who chimed
in, therefore I was referring to
>her, not you. >>
look, I made the
"sexist remark" i admit it. So
hang me. It was just a
joke, who could
possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
believe that
offended someone. I think Malcs needs to
take a big, fat,
extra-strength
chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
harm in noticing
that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
more highly of
them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
notice a
beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
by on the
street? Does it mean he thinks they're
better than others? I hope
not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
country where
everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
differences
between people are a taboo subject. If I
notice that someone's
pretty or has a
big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
anything I say or
do. But THEY know it.
I just wanna say
one thing: GET REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
your face?
The truth is,
everyone is different. Some people suck,
some are really cool.
Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond
hair. Some have
darker/lighter/frecklier
skin than others. Variety is the spice
of life. Why
pretend it
doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
long as they're
basically sweet inside. So what's my
crime?
-------------------------------love
and peace and beauty---------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:05:05 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Haikus n' sexism (?!)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date: Sat, 14
Jun 1997 13:01:48 -0400
>To:
Marioka7@aol.com
>From: Sara
Feustle <sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
>Subject: Damn
straight!
>In-Reply-To: <970614125508_1044806683@emout11.mail.aol.com>
>
>I totally
agree. I was disappointed to find political-correctness on this
list. Hell yeah,
Kerouac was gorgeous, everybody notices that, so what the
fuck's wrong with
pointing it out, ya' know? People need to get a sense of
humor!!! You'd
think that being a fan of Beat poetry would pretty much mean
that anyone on
this list would have to have a good sense of humor, but I
guess not....
--Sara
>
>
>At 12:55 PM
6/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a
message dated 97-06-14 09:08:26 EDT, you write:
>>
>><<
>> Oh.
Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol. Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
>> pardon
the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice person. No, really. *smile*
>>--Sara
>>
>>
>> At 07:50
PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>I'm a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one
who
>>
>>said the fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a
little. --Sara
>> >
>> >I
wasn't implying that you were. I was just noticing that my remark was
>>
>applicable again to the person who chimed in, therefore I was referring to
>> >her,
not you. >>
>>
>>look, I
made the "sexist remark" i admit it.
So hang me. It was just a
>>joke, who
could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
>>believe
that offended someone. I think Malcs
needs to take a big, fat,
>>extra-strength
chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
>>harm in
noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
>>more highly
of them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
>>notice a
beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
>>by on the
street? Does it mean he thinks they're
better than others? I hope
>>not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
>>country
where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
>>differences
between people are a taboo subject. If I
notice that someone's
>>pretty or
has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
>>anything
I say or do. But THEY know it.
>>
>>I just
wanna say one thing: GET REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
>>your
face?
>>The truth
is, everyone is different. Some people
suck, some are really
cool.
>> Some
have brown hair, red hair, or blond hair.
Some have
>>darker/lighter/frecklier
skin than others. Variety is the spice
of life.
Why
>>pretend
it doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
>>long as
they're basically sweet inside. So
what's my crime?
>>-------------------------------love
and peace and beauty---------maya
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:11:42 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Non-Alcoholic Jack
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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I think that as
far as Kerouac, Ginsberg AND Burroughs are concerned, the
genius would have
been there with or without the drugs/alcohol. The
intelligence,
talent and sensitivity of those three men are not something
that can be
gotten by simply getting fucked up . As a former alcoholic, I
just used alcohol
to escape; life and stuff inspired me to write whether I
was drunk or not.
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:17:05 +0000
Reply-To: bocelts@POPMAIL.SCSN.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<bocelts@popmail.scsn.net>
From: bocelts@POPMAIL.SCSN.NET
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Hal Norse
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970613232229_845106735@emout09.mail.aol.com>
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Charles:
I spent the day
with Hal Norse yesterday. He said to
tell you hello
and that a real
shit stole the good shit. I may have
found him a law
firm to take that
case. (Someone stole many of his
unpublished
manuscripts.) I told him about the Beat-L and he is
interested in
the list . He is going to have a friend set him up, if
he can. His
health is not
good and had bypass surgury.
He told me of the
first time he saw Ginsburg, Tennesse Williams,
meeting James
Baldwin andother storieds. When I get
back home and
can reflect on it
all, I will make a post to tell the story.
I went to
Berkeley and rode there and back with the ghost of Jack
Kerouac. He was in a good mood and the ghost does not
drink so his
health has
actually improved now that he is dead and his depression
has been
resolved. I got to see some of the
original letters to L.F.
Both the
librarian and Norse confirmed that Gerry's position on the
use of the
archives is correct. Norse told me that
Gerry has made
some
"powerful" enemies because of the positions he has taken and for
helping Jan.
It has been very
interesting indeed.
When I went to
St. Peter and St Paul, I lit a candle for Jack, Ma
Mere, Neil and
Allen. It is a very spiritual
church. I could feel
the power of the
mystical self quite clearly there. I am
not sure
that Allen cared,
but Jack and Ma Mere were happy for the candles, so
I said a prayer
for all of us then.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:07:50 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:08:12 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-14 08:44:37 EDT, lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU (Leitha
Sackmann) writes:
<< I would bet that the narrator in every novel
written by Jack
has some kind of an epiphany during some
course of the book. ....
... he was always searching for The End, always
searching for meaning in a
world that seems
so devoid of it at times. He was always
thinking of
something bigger,
something universal. >>
Kerouac, and most
religions, are trying to answer "Why are we here" or "What
is the meaning of
Life". And the search for these answers leads different
people to
different paths. For Kerouac, it led him to the road.
My personal
belief is that there is no purpose to life, and if you can come
to accept that
gracefully, you can still have a relatively happy (or content)
life realizing
that you should get the most out of it during this one and
only go-around.
I think that
Kerouac's conflict occurs because he was raised to have a strong
belief in the
greater sanctity of life and heaven (Kerouac's catholocism),
but as he went
through life he was bluntly reminded that a) sanctity of life
is not
universally practiced and b) this may be the one and only roadtrip and
damn, he may have
made some wrong turns. The idea of no afterlife can be a
depressing
thought. Many times it is what helps us get through this life,
thinking the next
one surely has to be better.
Conflict of this
issue is resolved in many different ways. Some people
continue to have
blind belief (sometimes called faith), others try to find
some inbetween
position (zen?), and some take to drink. I think Kerouac's
drinking came
from maintaining outwardly that he had faith in his religion
and the belief of
an afterlife etc, but internally realizing that this might
not be the case
and never being able to come face to face with that.
always enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:59:40 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>My personal
belief is that there is no purpose to life, and if you can come
>to accept
that gracefully, you can still have a relatively happy (or content)
>life
realizing that you should get the most out of it during this one and
>only
go-around.
>
This reminds me
of that old beer commercial (you only go around once in
life, so to get
all the gusto out of it drink this beer).
But, more
seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
meaning to life
(I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there isn't
what is wrong
with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted of
doing?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:54:46 -0400
Reply-To: corduroy@earthlink.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: corduroy
<corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>
Organization:
http://www.levity.com/corduroy
Subject: Nicole Blackman + Neal Cassady + Levi
Asher
Comments: To:
"Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"
<PAUL@louisville.lib.ky.us>
Comments: cc: The
Bohemian Ink <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>,
Bil Brown
<bil@orca.sitesonthe.net>,
Ron Whitehead
<rwhitebone@HOTMAIL.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Paul McDonald,
TeleReference LA, Main Info Services wrote:
> Here is the
interview. It is not published anywhere,
so you are the
> first and
only. I'll be looking for it and will
let Nicole know when its up.
> If she
hasn't seen yr site yet, she needs to.
Thanks much for
this interview! It is heading up the newest version of
the Ink,
along with a bit
about a new film that is based on a letter to Kerouac
from
Cassady, and an
announcement on a book Levi Asher co-edited on virtual
writings.
This is the first
time in a very long time I've been able to dig up any
respectful
literary news, so
very very happy to helped me out with this one.
(cR)
--
__________
.........| Bohemian Ink: http://www.levity.com/corduroy
.o..o..o.|
.........| christopher d. ritter
--------.| - corduroy@earthlink.net -
==|_|
||
==[===] ||
"There is a struggle going on for the minds of
|___| ||
American people. Every form of expression is
--------.| subject to the attack of reaction. This
attack
..KRUPS..| comes in the shape of silence, persecution,
.........| and censorship: three names for fear."
======== - Circle, 1948 -
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:24:05 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have heard of
this too. My brother and a few of his
friends came over
the other evening
with a copy of OZ. They were waiting for
another friend
to show up with a
copy of Dark Side of the Moon. Unfortunately,
he never
showed up. But, my brother has heard that this in fact
does work.
At 11:36 PM
6/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>David-
>Thought you
might find this interesting. Bob sent it
to me.
>Apparently,
>if you start
Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
>of
>The Wizard of
Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly.
Have you
>heard
>of this?
>>
>>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:42:34 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Goodbye
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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Well, I'm off on
a big adventure. Heading to Alaska in a
beat-up '72 Dodge
Motor Home with
five very different but all very bright people.
Hopefully,
we'll get our
share of epiphanies on that great and wonderful road. I hope
you all take
care, and if anyone of you are in Sitka, AK this summer look
for the kid with
long hair wearing a beat-l t-shirt.
Should be a rather
"beat"
experience--it was last year.
take care all,
I'll see you in August.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To believe
in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:50:20 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation.(Kerouac's catholocism)
In-Reply-To:
<970614140811_-328451480@emout10.mail.aol.com>
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Attila Gyenis
writes:
>>>>I
think that Kerouac's conflict occurs because he was raised to have a
strong
>belief in the
greater sanctity of life and heaven (Kerouac's catholocism),
>but as he
went through life he was bluntly reminded that a) sanctity of life
>is not
universally practiced and b) this may be the one and only roadtrip and
>damn, he may
have made some wrong turns. The idea of no afterlife can be a
>depressing
thought. Many times it is what helps us get through this life,
>thinking the
next one surely has to be better.<<<<
>always enjoy,
Attila
>
DEAR friends
& Attila,
as i'm roman
catholic by family tradition (here in italy)
i reminded u that
for catholics there's really a survival of our body
after death &
at the right time we will recover OUR BODY not
only spirit. this
faith is popularized in such B-Movie horror cultish
likes "the
night of the living deads" (1968) in term of fear & angst,
but perhaps the
real thing is that WE COME BACK to EARTH as man &
woman as we are
NOW, that's the real force of catholic life, if,
of course a
(wo)man believes.
Jack Kerouac
highlighted in 1958 (lamb, not lion) the Beat Generation
isn't without
roots, beat isn't tough. beat doesn't mean tired or
being beaten.
&JK see himself alive in year 2000...
Jack Kerouac used
the word "beato" (written in italian) for beatific
condition as San
Francesco, trying to love all in the life.
unluckly 10 years
after (circa) JK will die, but i don't think
his catholicism
caused "dark" term of his life,
love&happiness,
yrs
Rinaldo. * a beet
*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:23:27 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hal Norse
Bentz:
Sorry to hear
about Hal's surgery. He had that great
manuscript about W. H.
Auden. I saw part
of it published. The part about the giant rapist. I knew he
had a manuscript
he wanted published. I thought he had found a publisher. I'm
sorry Pam has
gone out of business, mainly due to distribution and funding
problems.
Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:33:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
DC:
Allen has recited
some of Pound's greatest lines to me which indicates
certainly that
aesthetic form (and you have to equate Pound with that) can
also be memorable
words.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:08:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Stories
In a message
dated 97-06-14 05:00:50 EDT, you write:
<< When you
wrote "the last time I saw Neal and loaned him a fiver..." >>
Pam and I were in
a sleazy hotel in North Beach when Neal and my old friend
from Kansas had
commandeered someone's VW ran upstairs pounding on our door
both I assume on
speed, hallucinogens, pot, etc. Both had bandannas tied
around their
heads probably to keep everything in and Neal wanted $5 for gas
to go down to
Palo Alto to a hell's angels' party. He looked at me with those
sad loyal pitiful
eyes and assured me that he would pay me back, not that it
made any
difference to me. I had just gone down to the Calif Dept of Motor
Vehicles to help
him get his driver's license which he was all paranoid
about. My friend
Glenn Todd still has Neal's license. Anyway they were both
crazy driver and
were arguing with each other about who was going to drive
the VW bug. They
wanted us to cram in there with them and the girl who owned
the VW. We of course
knew better.
BTW Glenn Todd
has just found an old manuscript he dug from someone's box of
things he kept
(he won't say whose). It is 65 pages. I'm trying to persuade
him to publish it
somewhere somehow. It is a chronicle of the party I had on
Gough street
where he was living with me and Dave Haselwood of the Auerhahn
Press before Neal
and Allen had moved in. Roxie arrived also that night from
Europe. The
manuscript is important because the party was just prior to the
Haight Ashbury
scene breaking out. Allen had just come from India. He brought
to my party
Ferlinghetti and Whalen. Daniel Moore and his wife arrived.
Michael McClure
and his wife arrived. The description of the party gives the
reader a snapshot
of what was happening with the Sandoz vials of LSD and the
Cheracol bottles
as candle holders on the fireplace mantel. It gives a good
description of
Phil Whalen dancing to many different kinds of music and it
was in an
historic pad. Described in this little description from his
writing:
"Nervous,
hung-up ghosts flit from room to room. Remnants of meth electrify
the air, mists of
marijuana have cooled its rafters; immobility of junk has
settled in its
corners, sometimes so thick you could heat it in a spoon. It
has an immediate
history which stretches back into the great Beat days of the
fifties when
Allen Ginsberg, Peter Orlovsky, and Robert LaVigne lived there,
and a vague
legend that reaches back to the forties, and even the thirties,
lurching in gaps
toward the present in intertwining and overlapping plots."
"On the wall
above her round kitchen table Nina has tacked a sign carefully
lettered in
orange crayold: I AM RESPONSIBLE. Across
the room another sign
proclaims: LSD
DID, to which someone has added, NOT; which someone else
extended, HING; a
final flourish completes the sign with A LOT. 'LSD id
nothing a
lot." Glenn said: "Everyone
has a Gough Street story."
This is one of
his. Neal returned to Nina's room just before he went to
Mexico. It is
also important to note the terminology of the time. The term
"acid"
had not been coined and one can see by that little crayon note how
easy it would be
to slip into Eastern mysticism. That was
part of my point
about reciting
T.S. Eliot to my students who might not have the existential
motif entwined in
the consciousness. It would be similar to use some of the
Taoist texts or
Jim Morrison's poetry, or Blake, or Rimbaud to reveal the
conciousness that
was going to happen in the Haight. I have assumed that
these motives are
not always enterwined throughout each generation's
conciousness.No
big deal about who's fucking poems one can recite.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:45:39 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Diane Carter
wrote in response to C. Plymell and Lurker #254
>
> When I was
in college, which was 20 years ago, I read a lot of Blake. I
> have books
with tons of notations in the margins, but while I remember
> the way
Blake wrote, I could not for the life of me recall lines of a
> single poem.
Diane, I cannot
believe that you guys can't at least remember some of
the poems of
Innocence and Experience. "Tyger
Tyger burning bright"
"Ah
Sunflower weary or Time", etc. Some
of Blake's things do get
awfully
complicated and arcane, but the Songs are as simple as poetry
gets, and
obsessed with the visionary, which was why they so drew
Ginsberg.
The same with T.S. Eliot, I remember how he
wrote, and if
> you recited
poems to me, either Prufrock or something from The Wasteland,
> I would
recognize it. . . .
Eliot was too bound up with form and
> thinking
"poetically." And, lurker
#254, it's time to defend your
> stance, that
"TS Eliot is a much better poet."
You can't just put that
> sentence out
there without the "why." We're
waiting.
> DC
Not the lurker,
but I'd agree with him and Charles here.
Much as I love
Allen, he is not
in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
things. I think he had an awful influence on modern
poetry, but "Love
Song",
"The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn
wonderful--even
if they may not have been nearly so good without Pounds
help. And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed
with "form" and being
"poetic"? Seems to me that this is what poetry is
about?
And thank you
Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to
argue with.
J Stauffer.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:04:22 +0200
Reply-To: Jean.ORY@hol.fr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>
Organization: ORY
Jean
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
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That is a
question I asked to myself:
Why Kerouac -
Buddhism - Booze?
First point -
even a Buddhist master can be an alcoholic!
Chogyam Trungpa
got a car crash in England because he was drunk. he went
straight on to a
wall instead of following the curve of the road.
The sixteenth
Karmapa told him to go for a one year retreat to come down
a little from his
habit.
Namkay Norbu,
recognized as a Dzogchen master, is known as a heavy
drinker and was
advised by the doctors to stop because it was damaging
his health.
Taisen Deshimaru,
the Zen master who brought Soto Zen in Europe was a
cognac lover and
a heavy nicotine smoker.
Second point is
that Jack Kerouac, thought "Natural Buddhist" didn't
have any guru who
really taught him how to meditate.
Third point: I
agree with that Catholic guilty feeling which should have
been eradicated
through receiving Buddhist teachings from a competent
teacher and
through correct meditation.
I think that
Ginsberg had led a positive end of life because he met
Choghyam Trungpa
and learn from him what really was meditation and so
how to get from
meditation what people used to get from drinking alcohol
or from taking
any mind changing drug.
About Ti Jean :
*Ti* is the phonetic contraction of
*petit* which means
small.
*Ti* is the
Canadian phonetic way to say "petit".
Hi to the
Canadians of the list!
A question: Was
there any meeting between Shunryu Suzuki, author of "Zen
Mind, beginner's
mind" who was teaching from the beginnings of the
sixties Soto Zen
in San Francisco and the Beat Generation Authors?
I read that
Shunryu Suzuki made a lecture at the last be in concert in
the sixties along
with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the Grateful Dead
What's about Alan
Watts and the Beats?
Just an
information for fun!
Beginning of the
sixties I was a regular visitor of the Shakespeare and
CO bookshop in
Paris where they were many beat vibes, many people from
everywhere coming
and going.
I been living in
Tangier for one year between 1965 and 1966.
I was bookshop
assistant at the Librairie de Colonnes, boulevard
Pasteur.
I went to
Tangier, because the grass and because Howl and because the
Naked lunch.
One day in spring
1966 I saw William Burroughs come in the bookshop.
I was so
paralyzed that I even couldn't ask him for an autograph.
Paul Bowles used
to come often to the bookshop as many other Tangier
people who were
painters, writers, etc.
I went back in
1967 for holidays.
I never went back
then, because I had so many good memories, I met so
many beautiful
and brilliant people reading the I Ching and "The Tibetan
Book of the Dead,
a psychedelic experience" and many of them died or
went away.
Took my first
trip there.
I experienced
"I saw the best minds of my generation....." with a
broken heart.
All things must
pass..........
Jean
Enlarging my ears
to listen to the sound of one palm of a hand for
myself and for
them.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:47:10 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A2FF14.5625@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sat, 14 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> I have to
say I understand and agree with most everything you said. Most
to...
> Ginsberg
without drugs. But you also do not have
to equate
>
self-destruction with art or altered states of conscious with
>
self-destruction. Maybe that leads to
some more questions about how
For the first
"self-destruction" substitute self-immolation. And art is
only art only an
attempt to communicate the ineffable.
Only. Life is
learning. I would say "drugs" [and god DAMN!
the gov't for making me do
that] are a
necessity. It's the by-roads that
illuminate.
> Ginsberg and
Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.
And questions about
> the
differences between the influences of Buddhism on Jack and Allen. In
> a way I wish
that an epiphany had saved him so that he could have lived
> to write
more.
Lordy Lordy. I tell YOU!
I could not live in the same extHistance
plane as a saved
Jack Kerouac. I been saved. Forget it, there's no
interest accruing
. I don't think it was ever a matter of
how much, for
Jack.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:51:38 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: haikus and sexism?
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970614125648_318395933@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sat, 14 Jun
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> look, I made
the "sexist remark" i admit it.
So hang me. It was just a
> joke, who
could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
> believe that
offended someone. I think Malcs needs to
take a big, fat,
>
extra-strength chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
> harm in
noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
> more highly
of them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
> notice a
beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
> by on the
street? Does it mean he thinks they're
better than others? I hope
> not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
> country
where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
> differences
between people are a taboo subject. If I
notice that someone's
> pretty or
has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
> anything I
say or do. But THEY know it.
>
> I just wanna
say one thing: GET REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
> your face?
> The truth
is, everyone is different. Some people
suck, some are really cool.
> Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond
hair. Some have
>
darker/lighter/frecklier skin than others.
Variety is the spice of life. Why
> pretend it
doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
> long as
they're basically sweet inside. So
what's my crime?
>
-------------------------------love and peace and beauty---------maya
>
Hey nice
tirade. Your crime is that you're
honest. Could we plan a
hanging soon?
[i echoed that
because i like what she says]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:10:41 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.(Kerouac's
catholocism)
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970614235020.00d6fe8c@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sat, 14 Jun
1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> unluckly 10
years after (circa) JK will die, but i don't think
> his
catholicism caused "dark" term of his life,
rinaldo rinaldo
rinaldo.... he was guilty. we all are
guilty. from
birth. jack wanted not salvation, but
elevation. but he was guilty.
it's so
hard. he broke free and showed us it...
every so often. give
thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:46:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
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Jean ORY wrote:
>
> Second point
is that Jack Kerouac, thought "Natural Buddhist" didn't
> have any
guru who really taught him how to meditate.
>
So you would see
the Marin-An mediation period as an unsucessful lesson?
> Third point:
I agree with that Catholic guilty feeling which should have
> been
eradicated through receiving Buddhist teachings from a competent
> teacher and
through correct meditation.
. . .
> A question:
Was there any meeting between Shunryu Suzuki, author of "Zen
> Mind,
beginner's mind" who was teaching from the beginnings of the
> sixties Soto
Zen in San Francisco and the Beat Generation Authors?
> I read that
Shunryu Suzuki made a lecture at the last be in concert in
> the sixties
along with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the Grateful Dead
>
> What's about
Alan Watts and the Beats?
>
It would be nice
to get Nicosia to answer what documented contacts there
are. Kerouac had to be aware of those people as he
moved in Buddhist
circles with
Kerouac and with East/West house people such as Lew Welch,
Joanne Kyger,
Lorraine Kandel, Tom Field, etc. Watts was a huge presence
in SF in those
years and Rexroth was also very knowledgable in Buddhist
matters. All I
really know about Jack's meditative practice is what you
get in Dharma Bumms
and Desolation Angels. Would like to
hear more
facts about his
contacts from the biographical experts.
But it is
interesting that
what worked for say Snyder and Kyger, worked only
partially for Lew
and Jack. Whatever they learned sitting
and Marin-An
the bottle was
still too much for both of them. And of
course it is
rather judgmental
to say that Jack and Lew failed. Their
lives were
short, and not
particularly happy, but they left great work behind. All
lives are
different. Of course Snyder, Kyger and Whalen followed up this
time with intense
work in Japan.
Thanks for a very
interesting post. Enjoyed your Tangiers
recollections.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:59:53 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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June
15, 1997
Attila Gyensis
writes:
>
>Conflict of
this issue is resolved in many different ways. Some people
>continue to
have blind belief (sometimes called faith), others try to find
>some
inbetween position (zen?), and some take to drink. I think Kerouac's
>drinking came
from maintaining outwardly that he had faith in his religion
>and the
belief of an afterlife etc, but internally realizing that this might
>not be the
case and never being able to come face to face with that.
>
>always enjoy,
Attila
>
Dear Attila:
You trivialize Jack Kerouac's faith and
spiritual seeking in a not
very kind
manner. Michael McClure considers MEXICO
CITY BLUES the most
profound
spiritual poem of the 20th century, and I see the Kerouac's oeuvre
as certainly one
of the most profound spiritual searches in this century--a
modern equivalent
of St. Thomas Aquinas or St. John of the Cross, or perhaps
a closer analogy
would be some more unconventional seekers such as
Kierkegaard and
Jacob Boehme.
I don't think Jack "drank because
of doubt," as you imply. Early
on, Jack wrote to
John Holmes, "Life is drenched in spirit; it rains
spirit..."
and I don't think Jack ever lost that belief at all. His
kindness, which
came from a deep sense of God's love, was manifested even at
the end, when he
told Stella "I love you" just before they took him to the
hospital--despite
the fact that they had been having the bitterest fights
before then. That was an act of pure, selfless
compassion--whether
"Buddhist"
or "Christian" hardly matters, and would be an arbitrary
distinction
anyway.
Jack could not bear to witness human
suffering; in fact, any
suffering in this
world took an enormous emotional toll on him.
He had a
tremendous
sensitivity, a child's sensitivity, but unlike most grown people,
that sensitivity
was not dulled or calloused over for self-protection. He
was a walking open
wound, an exceptionally vulnerable person, who was stung
to the quick even
by bad reviews written by stupid, incompetent reviewers
(at one point he
asked Matsumi Kanemitsu to read him those reviews over the
phone, because he
could no longer bear to read them himself).
The knowledge that "we're all
going to die" was why he wrote, he
said, and it was
the hardest knowledge of all for him to bear.
Ginsberg
shared this with
Jack. The very mention of death would
send cold shivers
through Ginsberg--I
witnessed this a couple of times. They
both FELT the
pain of man's
mortality far more than most of the people walking this earth.
To stay alive and
keep feeling that deeply, Jack had to drink.
For Allen,
sex, fame, and
crazy antics worked for a while; at the end, Tibetan Buddhism
helped Allen keep
his balance, but he was still--in my view--far too
dependent on the
adulation of thousands to help him bear that pain.
That is not to fault Allen, any more
than I can fault Jack for his
drinking. I'm not here to judge either of them; and
certainly the
sensitivity to
the human condition they shared, and the spiritual
exploration they
did for all of us, is something for which to be very
grateful.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:38:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: drugs and epiphany
I see a lot of
evidence of marijuana-like sensations in Jack (and Ginsberg's)
work. You know, that feeling when looking at an
ordinary object, "Wow I
never saw it that
way before! Now i suddenly
understand!"
But who's to say
it's because of drugs? The thing about
the sixties is that
now, 30 years
later, we take those kind of micro- and macro-perceptions for
granted more than
we used to. But they've always been
there in books and
art.
(as for kerouac
and alcohol...it's not easier to write when you're F***ed up,
even though it
does make you more relaxed, it's a psychological crutch that
keeps you from
investing all of yourself in your work because you're afraid
and not confident
in your ability as an artist) (i had similar experience
with painting and
other substance)
Before i ever
smoked pot, I already saw things that
way. If you are a
writer or painter
you naturally see things that way. You
can stare at an
object and loose
all sense of time and just trip out on it, that's how you
study things and
decide how you want to represent them.
That's just how you
really SEE them.
So there's only a
limited amount of ways of perception that drugs can show
you. This applies to all kinds. Trust me, you name it i've
sniffed/smoked/shot/drunk/inhaled/swallowed
it. Except peyote, but i'm not
in the mood for a
hard-core freak-out. Anyhow, drugs might
make you more
aware of a
thought-process, but that process was already there in the first
place. If you use drugs for creative inspiration or
whatnot, just think of
how many
thought-processes you might be missing, 'cause you can only see the
ones you get from
drugs.
It's much better to take the insights you got
from knowing how the drug
works on your
brain, and when you're sober, make yourself really listen to
your thoughts and
perceptions. It's kind of like
meditation of sorts. Once
you are
absolutely aware and conscious of every thought in your head, you
will have a
thousand epiphanies at once, and i guarantee you will never run
out of
inspiration.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:51:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
In a message
dated 97-06-14 12:43:55 EDT, you write:
<< Maybe that leads to some more questions about
how
Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac
did not. >>
I have heard and
firmly believe that heroin use over a prolonged period of
time actually
slows down the aging process. Hence the
long life of Burroughs
and Hunke the
Junky. (of course one should avoid OD
for this to stand) It
does things to
your nervous system (relaxes certain elements and stimulates
others) so that
your metabolism changes and time sort of slows down for your
body. Bodily processes slow down. It's like a preservative of sorts.
----------------just
an idea------------------------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:58:03 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:
<<
But, more seriously, and only peripherally
beat related, if there is no
meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with
what McVeigh was convicted of
doing? >>
Ok, there's no
MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least, that
all humans are
part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from his
species, and
therefore harming another human means harming the species, and
that goes against
our basic biological instinct and is therefore translated
into
"morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:26 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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>
Marioka7@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a
message dated 97-06-13 14:11:48 EDT, you write:
> >
> >
<<
> > I have often wondered why Jack drank so much
if he had actually touched
> > the wonderfulness of the universe in this
way. Why was he able to write
> > about such things but not be more positive in
living his own life?
> > Ginsberg went through much darkness but
remained positive in living and
> > in writing.
> > DC
> > >>
> > maybe
he wasn't as great as some think. didn't
he die at home where he was
> > living
with his mom or something? i used to
romanticize tragedy and
> >
self-destruction but now i see that it is a sign of weakness. Probably
> > because
i almost self-destructed myself, i see that there's no good in it
and
> > nothing
to admire.
I don't see it so
much of a sign of weakness as being stuck in a journey.
The writers we
are talking about were disillusioned about themselves to
some extent,
disillusioned about America, and at certain times didn't see
much hope in the
situation. Their writings, however,
reflect a certain
brightness in the
moment, a way to celebrate their own lives and that of
America. When I went to college, it seemed like
everyone pursued
self-destruction,
me included, and the idea was that the only way to be
creative, to
write or whatever, was to engage the darkest part of the
soul, and from
the darkest moments came the best writing.
Thankfully most
of us moved out of the idea that to write means to
self-destruct. That's why I think Ginsberg is such a good
example of what a
person can achieve over the course of a
lifetime. He touched the darkest parts of himself but
came
through
them. When I was in college everyone was
reading Sylvia Plath
and Ann Sexton,
and following their somewhat hopeless paths.
To think
that you have to
be self-destructive to be an artist is absurd, but if
you are the one
caught in that hopelessness, it doesn't seem so at the
time.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:24:47 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Is HUNKE still
alive? I haven't heard anything from or
about him lately.
Thanks.
At 02:51 PM
6/15/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-06-14 12:43:55 EDT, you write:
>
><< Maybe that leads to some more questions about
how
> Ginsberg and
Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.
>>
>
>I have heard
and firmly believe that heroin use over a prolonged period of
>time actually
slows down the aging process. Hence the
long life of Burroughs
>and Hunke the
Junky. (of course one should avoid OD
for this to stand) It
>does things
to your nervous system (relaxes certain elements and stimulates
>others) so
that your metabolism changes and time sort of slows down for your
>body. Bodily processes slow down. It's like a preservative of sorts.
>
>----------------just
an idea------------------------------maya
>
>
Greg Elwell elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:54 -0400
Reply-To: ProDuo@AOL.COM
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ProDuo@AOL.COM
Subject: written creative expression contest
Hello, sorry to
intrude on your e-mail. Just wanted to
know if you are
interested in an
opportunity to win house in Rhinebeck, NY by entering a fee
based
contest. If so, please e-mail us or go
to
http://www.wegrew.com/winahouse. If you can, we'd love to hear from you.
Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:24:52 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> DC:
> Allen has
recited some of Pound's greatest lines to me which indicates
> certainly
that aesthetic form (and you have to equate Pound with that) can
> also be
memorable words.
> Charles
Plymell
I would have to
agree that there certainly are memorable words in
aesthetic form
and also in what I hesitate to call, but will
call formlessness. Certainly Pound had a tremendous influence on
Ginsberg as did
Blake, and several other great poets.
But I also don't
see why reciting
Eliot to students to illuminate existential motifs would
be any more
effective than an introduction to the personal
consciousness/freedom,
angst/searching of beat writers.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:41:08 -0400
Reply-To: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Heroin as Youth Preserver?
In-Reply-To: <vines.47J8+Vj+8nA@S1.DRC.COM> from
"mARK hEMENWAY" at Mar 13,
97 09:14:53 am
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While I find it
amazing that Burroughs is still with us after
being as heroin
user for as long as he was,I must disagee with
the idea that
'the big H' retards aging...
I had the
pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders
(guitarist for
The New York Dolls) in 1982.
At 30,he had
liver spots!
Seen a recent
picture over the last 5 years (or more)
of Iggy
Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?
These folks,while
no longer spring chickens,have looked older
than their years
for quite some time;
I don't think
it's coincidence that each was/(is?)
a long time H
user.
I tip my hat to
any and all that can kicksmack AND
maintain some semblance
of youth;I just
don't believe it's a given.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:45 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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>James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
> Not the
lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I love
> Allen, he is
not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
> things. I think he had an awful influence on modern
poetry, but "Love
> Song",
"The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn
>
wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without Pounds
> help. And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed
with "form" and being
>
"poetic"? Seems to me that
this is what poetry is about?
>
> And thank
you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to
> argue with.
>
> J Stauffer.
Ah, but see that
is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
earlier in the
century. Is poetry about being
"poetic?" or is it
also about
something beyond that? Eliot wrote
wonderful poems, even I
agree with that,
even if I can't recite them from memory.
But I think
the argument here
goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would he have thought
it was poetic?
Hard to say what
dead men think, but I bet not. Do you
think Howl is
poetic? Do you think Kaddish is poetic? I do, but not for any of the
same reasons that
Eliot is poetic. Form does not make one
poetic.
Inspiration makes
one poetic. All poets are also not
visionaries,
doesn't make them
bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
consciousness.
Not every poet transends the framework of the time period
in which he/her
is writing. Blake was a visionary. Whitman was a
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary. Each of them was
poetic but took
poetry to a level
beyond poetic. I cannot imagine
comtemporary poetry
without Ginsberg
and the barriors he broke. I simply
cannot see Eliot's
contributions in
the same way.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:15:35 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> But, more seriously, and only peripherally
beat related, if there is no
> meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
> what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with
what McVeigh was convicted of
> doing? >>
>
> Ok, there's
no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least, that
> all humans
are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from his
> species, and
therefore harming another human means harming the species, and
> that goes
against our basic biological instinct and is therefore translated
> into
"morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.
If there is truly
no meaning to life, there is nothing wrong with what
the Nazis did or
with what Timothy McVeigh was convicted of doing. If
there is no
meaning, the universe is random and humans and their acts are
totally
random. There is nothing upon which to
base a moral choice.
There is no right
and wrong. In a no meaning scenario,
there is nothing
that makes
harming another human good or bad.
Biological instinct
would be
random. Nothing would be better or worse
than any other
thing. Humans would exist and die randomly, total
cause and effect, no
emotion.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:11:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-15 18:17:13 EDT, you write:
<<
Maya Gorton wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT,
you write:
>
> <<
>
But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
>
meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there
isn't
>
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted
of
>
doing? >>
>
> Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a
basic belief on my part at least,
that
> all humans are part of a whole, that the
individual is not separate from
his
> species, and therefore harming another
human means harming the species,
and
> that goes against our basic biological
instinct and is therefore
translated
> into "morally wrong" and we
cannot allow it.
If there is truly no meaning to life, there is
nothing wrong with what
the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh was
convicted of doing. If
there is no meaning, the universe is random
and humans and their acts are
totally random. There is nothing upon which to base a moral
choice.
There is no right and wrong. In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing
that makes harming another human good or
bad. Biological instinct
would be random. Nothing would be better or worse than any
other
thing.
Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no
emotion.
DC
>>
What do you mean
by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely. You oppose
it to
"randomness" and the absence of morality. But can't there be meaning
in chaos and
beyond the polarity of good and bad?
I guess what i
was saying is that there is no intrinsic Meaning common to all
humans. Nazis & Mcveigh however, to use your
examples, did not commit their
atrocitites in
the absence of meaning. On the contrary,
they had a clearer
purpose and
vision than most of us, sordid as it was.
If they thought there
was no meaning to
life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.
It is up to each individual to invent a
meaning for life. In the absence of
any meaning
whatsoever, we lose the ability to act entirely. We wouldn't
even eat, just
sit and drool on ourselves and rot away.
(I've been there
when absurdity
looms). Even acts of violence need
meaning behind them to
occur.
So, yes, you're
right in that their acts wouldn't be wrong, but I don't think
that they would
have done them in the first place if life had no meaning.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:29:11 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: lurker speaks
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DC,
Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art,
not
chance/ as those
move easiest who have learned to dance"
(Essay on
Criticism) Let's see...you say that TS
Eliot is not
memorable?....off
the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/
breeding lilacs
out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring
dull roots with
spring rain/ Winter kept us warm/
Covering earth in
forgetful snow/
Feeding little life to dried tubers"
An astounding
beginning..... I
find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th
C lit..cross
referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,
etc......and I've
never really had occasion to cross reference to
Ginsberg...I think
that speaks volumes. I also tend to
quote Eliot
when speaking to people on the topic of
despair/hopelessness...in real
life
situations.... (more later...kids are
fighting...life)
sorry about how I
triedto post this earlier...it didn't work obviously
(and I still
don't have quite enough time to expound on my ideas of
Pound and
Eliot.....hopefully tonight I'll get more than ten minutes at
a stretch)
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:56:45 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Heroin as Youth Preserver?
Comments: To:
carl@world.std.com
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At 04:41 PM
6/15/97 -0400, Carl A Biancucci wrote:
>While I find
it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after
>being as
heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with
>the idea that
'the big H' retards aging...
>
>I had the
pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders
>(guitarist
for The New York Dolls) in 1982.
>At 30,he had
liver spots!
>
>Seen a recent
picture over the last 5 years (or more)
>of Iggy
Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?
>These
folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older
>than their
years for quite some time;
>I don't think
it's coincidence that each was/(is?)
>a long time H
user.
>
>I tip my hat
to any and all that can kicksmack AND
maintain some semblance
>of youth;I
just don't believe it's a given.
To quote
Burroughs in JUNKY, he says, "I think I am in better health now as
a result of using
junk at intervals than I would be if I had never been an
addict...Most
users periodically kick the habit, which involves shrinking
of the organism
and replacement of the junk-dependant cells."
I'm not sure if
this is true and in no way back this up, due to the lack of
knowledge in the
science field. Burroughs goes on to say
that if you
continuously
shrink cells by continuing to kick the habit, you may perhaps
live to a
phenomonal age, because you'll constantly be growing.
I DON'T
KNOW! I have seen pictures of some of
the people that you've
mentioned, and
you're absolutely right. But then again,
Burroughs is still
alive... It's interesting(I think).
Greg Elwell elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:39:02 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Gerry's post on Kerouac
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Thank you for
such a fine post Gerry. I always felt
that Jack drank to
"dull"
the pain of his awareness. His mind took
in every little detail
and seemingly
forgot nothing. What a burden to
bear! Last Thursday
while at
Bancroft, I was able to review and read some of Jack's letters
to Lawrence
Ferlinghetti. In one he said that he
prayed every night for
all living things
to enter heaven and that is the work of a man.
I
believe his work
shows a "conflict" that would be natural for a devoute
Catholic who
realized there was more to spirituality than the man made
church.
I appreciate the
thoughts and comments Gerry.
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:46:35 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Diane Carter
wrote:
> Ah, but see
that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
> earlier in
the century. Is poetry about being
"poetic?" or is it
> also about
something beyond that? Eliot wrote
wonderful poems, even I
>
> agree with
that, even if I can't recite them from memory.
But I think
>
> the argument
here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
>
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would
he have thought it was poetic?
>
> Hard to say
what dead men think, but I bet not. Do
you think Howl is
> poetic? Do you think Kaddish is poetic? I do, but not for any of the
>
> same reasons
that Eliot is poetic. Form does not make
one poetic.
> Inspiration
makes one poetic. All poets are also not
visionaries,
> doesn't make
them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
>
consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time
> period
> in which
he/her is writing. Blake was a
visionary. Whitman was a
>
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary.
Each of them was poetic but took
>
> poetry to a
level beyond poetic. I cannot imagine
comtemporary poetry
>
> without
Ginsberg and the barriors he broke. I
simply cannot see
> Eliot's
>
contributions in the same way.
> DC
It would seem to
me that more than anything, Allen G broke the
stranglehold that
the academicians had on poetry and opened the door for
more natural
poetry. During my visit with Norse I
asked him about this
and he quoted me
Eliot. He said that Eliot and WSB are
much the same in
voice but that
Eliot went English and WSB remained American in voice.
He also said that
it was no sin that Pound edited Eliot and that he had
edited many of
the beats, including Allen and that it was very painful
to Allen. I am sorry to appear to name drop this, but I
asked him as I
wanted to bring
it to the list and he gave me permission to pass it
along. Harold is going to check with some friends to
see if they can
help him get on
the list. He said he would like that
very much as he
can not get out
in public much and has not spoken with Charles and Gerry
in a while.
I do not mean to
sound melodramatic, but Norse is a giant in a small
body. I feel a changed person for the six hours I
spent with him.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Diane Carter wrote:
> >James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> >
> > Not the
lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I
> love
> > Allen,
he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
> >
things. I think he had an awful
influence on modern poetry, but
> "Love
> >
Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty
damn
> >
wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without
> Pounds
> >
help. And what's wrong with a poet being
obsessed with "form" and
> being
> >
"poetic"? Seems to me that
this is what poetry is about?
> >
> > And
thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough
> to
> > argue
with.
> >
> > J
Stauffer.
>
> Ah, but see
that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
> earlier in
the century. Is poetry about being
"poetic?" or is it
> also about
something beyond that? Eliot wrote
wonderful poems, even I
>
> agree with
that, even if I can't recite them from memory.
But I think
>
> the argument
here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
>
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would
he have thought it was poetic?
>
> Hard to say
what dead men think, but I bet not. Do
you think Howl is
> poetic? Do you think Kaddish is poetic? I do, but not for any of the
>
> same reasons
that Eliot is poetic. Form does not make
one poetic.
> Inspiration
makes one poetic. All poets are also not
visionaries,
> doesn't make
them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
>
consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time
> period
> in which
he/her is writing. Blake was a
visionary. Whitman was a
>
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary.
Each of them was poetic but took
>
> poetry to a
level beyond poetic. I cannot imagine
comtemporary poetry
>
> without
Ginsberg and the barriors he broke. I
simply cannot see
> Eliot's
>
contributions in the same way.
> DC
DC:
In Love Song
alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and
what that means
to our souls. He was part of what opened
the door for
Allen, WSB and
many more. Perhaps he became
"affected" or perhaps his
great works
number only a few, but what he said in the one poem is
astounding,
especially if you look at the period.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:30:10 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NOW
In a message
dated 97-06-14 04:40:57 EDT, you write:
<< I stuck
that copy of GRIST in an envelope and have it ready to mail off
'cept I
can't find where I put it! Soon as I find it,
it's yours. Wondered if you
were
interested in writing out a part of Apocalypse
Rose for me in trade as that
is
one of my favorite poems. I'd like to frame it
for my own "poetry musuem."
>>
Dave:
I'd love to do a
little collage and script of the Apocalypse Rose poem.
Though Dave
Haselwood did such a wonderful job on his turn of the century
hand set
letterpress edition it is hard to beat. And I don't have a very good
script hand like
S. Clay or Robert Crumb but I'll try something. You'll have
to memorize the
whole Apocalypse Rose poem thought (just kidding).
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:34:17 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a message
dated 97-06-15 01:20:52 EDT, you write:
<< And
thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to
argue with.
>>
Well, I'm sorry.
I forgot about Blakes songs. I thought everyone knew them by
heart. I used to
dramatize and recite TIGER for K thru 5th grade at local
school. I thought
all teachers and parents did that. I'd forgotten how things
changed. I went
to a one room schoolhouse during those grades. The teacher
made me stand in
the corner and memorize poetry all the time for being bad.
One day she mader
me go oustide to "find my thinking cap" I brought to her an
old dried animal
turd.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:05:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: drugs and epiphany
In a message
dated 97-06-15 14:45:22 EDT, you write:
<< Except peyote, but i'm not
in the mood for a hard-core freak-out.
>>
Peyote has a soft
core actually. Used to send for a carton of hundred plants
back in Kansas in
the 50s. It was just that flesh-like
consistency and the
taste. Just
thinking about the taste sent shivers through. My old peyote
eating buddy used
to say: "it tastes like bile from the devil's asshole."
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:38 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pickled old souls
In a message
dated 97-06-15 14:59:25 EDT, you write:
<< Bodily
processes slow down. It's like a
preservative of sorts.
>>
Yeah they're both
beautifully pickled old souls. You just got to know your
intake and watch
your metabolism. No foolishness or you'll be fucked.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:17:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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i must say i'm
enjoying this.
i've been
grappling with a sense of pointlessness recently. i can't say
that it has
encouraged me to bomb or root for McVeigh.
but i can't say
that i've been in
a condemning mood either.
derek had an
interesting insight the other day that "pointlessness" and
"meaninglessness"
are sisters but not twins. i'm not
certain if he
thought of it or
i did or if it hit us both as our fingertips slashed
ferociously at
our keyboards.
obvious that
different notions of "meaning" "Meaning"
"MEANING" are at
play. not to downplay the moralists, but i hope
that there is more of a
point to life
than in condeming the acts of Hitler, McVeigh, Custer and
the
slavetraders. if the meaning of life is
derived from NOT doing
something,
sitting and drooling might be about as meaningful as
Einsteinian
genius. if i ramble as you read this it
is to be expected,
it is difficult
to come to a point, let alone a clear one, when it the
grips of
pointlessness.
but i do enjoy
the discussion.
i thought Gerry
Nicosia was ON TARGET (was it in this thread - i don't
really recall) -
in mentioning the notion of "sensitiveness" and i liked
that the
sensitiveness is connected to mortality but also connected to
sight ... it
seems the loss of death is made greater by the beauty
witnessed in the
mortal world.
of course, none
of this may make any sense and i am more than willing to
accept that
critique.
i must say though
that the meaning of life may best be experienced on a
stoop watching a
Kansas thunderstorm roll in. The soul of
the universe
opens up and
weeps all over us here on the plains.
and the point of
life may be found
at the tip of a lightning bolt.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-15 18:17:13 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> Maya Gorton wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13
EDT, you write:
> >
> > <<
> >
But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
> >
meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there
> isn't
> >
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted
> of
> >
doing? >>
> >
> > Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a
basic belief on my part at least,
> that
> > all humans are part of a whole, that the
individual is not separate from
> his
> > species, and therefore harming another
human means harming the species,
> and
> > that goes against our basic biological
instinct and is therefore
> translated
> > into "morally wrong" and we
cannot allow it.
>
> If there is truly no meaning to life, there
is nothing wrong with what
> the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh was
convicted of doing. If
> there is no meaning, the universe is random
and humans and their acts are
> totally random. There is nothing upon which to base a moral
choice.
> There is no right and wrong. In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing
> that makes harming another human good or
bad. Biological instinct
> would be random. Nothing would be better or worse than any
other
> thing.
Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no
> emotion.
> DC
> >>
>
> What do you
mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely. You oppose
> it to
"randomness" and the absence of morality. But can't there be meaning
> in chaos and
beyond the polarity of good and bad?
>
> I guess what
i was saying is that there is no intrinsic Meaning common to all
> humans. Nazis & Mcveigh however, to use your
examples, did not commit their
> atrocitites
in the absence of meaning. On the
contrary, they had a clearer
> purpose and
vision than most of us, sordid as it was.
If they thought there
> was no
meaning to life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.
>
> It is up to each individual to invent a
meaning for life. In the absence of
> any meaning
whatsoever, we lose the ability to act entirely. We wouldn't
> even eat,
just sit and drool on ourselves and rot away.
(I've been there
> when
absurdity looms). Even acts of violence
need meaning behind them to
> occur.
>
> So, yes,
you're right in that their acts wouldn't be wrong, but I don't think
> that they would
have done them in the first place if life had no meaning.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> >
>James Stauffer wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I
> > love
> > >
Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
> > >
things. I think he had an awful influence
on modern poetry, but
> >
"Love
> > >
Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty
damn
> > >
wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without
> > Pounds
> > >
help. And what's wrong with a poet being
obsessed with "form" and
> > being
> > >
"poetic"? Seems to me that
this is what poetry is about?
> > >
> > >
And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough
> > to
> > >
argue with.
> > >
> > > J
Stauffer.
> >
> > Ah, but
see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
> > earlier
in the century. Is poetry about being
"poetic?" or is it
> > also
about something beyond that? Eliot wrote
wonderful poems, even I
> >
> > agree
with that, even if I can't recite them from memory. But I think
> >
> > the
argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
> >
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would
he have thought it was poetic?
> >
> > Hard to
say what dead men think, but I bet not.
Do you think Howl is
> >
poetic? Do you think Kaddish is
poetic? I do, but not for any of the
> >
> > same
reasons that Eliot is poetic. Form does
not make one poetic.
> >
Inspiration makes one poetic. All poets
are also not visionaries,
> > doesn't
make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
> >
consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time
> > period
> > in
which he/her is writing. Blake was a
visionary. Whitman was a
> >
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary.
Each of them was poetic but took
> >
> > poetry
to a level beyond poetic. I cannot
imagine comtemporary poetry
> >
> > without
Ginsberg and the barriors he broke. I
simply cannot see
> > Eliot's
> >
contributions in the same way.
> > DC
>
> DC:
>
> In Love Song
alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and
> what that
means to our souls. He was part of what
opened the door for
> Allen, WSB
and many more. Perhaps he became
"affected" or perhaps his
> great works
number only a few, but what he said in the one poem is
> astounding,
especially if you look at the period.
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
i guess i'm gonna
have to get off my illiterate ass and finally read
this damn Love
Song to Whomever. the way people had
always talked about
it, it was easy
to dismiss as Affected Trash without even giving it a
look. but the way it has been discussed here
recently, it sounds worth
more than a quick
glance. thanks for the insights.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. i realize
that admitting i've not bothered to read such a work is
grounds for
stoning in some circles....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:28:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-15 13:03:15 EDT, you write:
<< They
both FELT the
pain of man's mortality far more than most of
the people walking this earth.
>>
Gerry:
Yeah, Tha't the
whole thing really. Some have this "singularity flashback"
more often and
painful than do others. They know that the purpose and truth
will not be
revealed, so any path that works, take it. Religions become
arbitrary at this
point. Perhaps one of the limitations of the beat ethos may
be that during
their time in history, they had to deal with those
conventions. In
the postmodern transition into the next millenium the
abstraction of
religions may give way to how we can survive as humans. Pound
also claimed when
men were more like gods and women more like goddesses in
the ancient
world, they had more gods closer to them rather than abstracted
to form as in
formality; therefore, they began acting less like gods.
BTW I still
remember Allen's observation of "mechanized faces" of the 50's,
presumably in
Methodist and Baptist Ministers. I see those same faces in the
Naropa hierachy
as mentioned in those earlier post about drunken [fools]. Of
course everything
in life Hunter Thomspson shooting on T.V. (very original
redneck stuff) to
literary works are designed to keep us from thinking about
that painful
unaswerable singularity.
Now we have
gender correctness on the list after thousands of years! Boys and
girls, I'm here
to tell you that you have different pee-pees. Let's make it a
national concern
before this melinium closes!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:28:48 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: seperated at birth?...
>list. Hell
yeah, Kerouac was gorgeous, everybody notices that, so what the
>fuck's wrong
with pointing it out, ya' know? People need to get a sense of
compeltely off
topic of the original message here, but I'm currently
reading _Off the
Road_, & there are pictures of both Kerouac & Neal
Cassady...now
this is compeltely superficial here, but am I the only one
who thinks that
the two guys look like they could be biological brothers?
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:36:16 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Heroin as Youth Preserver?
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Greg Elwell
wrote:
>
> At 04:41 PM
6/15/97 -0400, Carl A Biancucci wrote:
> >While I
find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after
> >being as
heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with
> >the idea
that 'the big H' retards aging...
> >
> >I had
the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders
>
>(guitarist for The New York Dolls) in 1982.
> >At 30,he
had liver spots!
> >
> >Seen a
recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)
> >of Iggy
Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?
> >These
folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older
> >than
their years for quite some time;
> >I don't
think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)
> >a long
time H user.
> >
> >I tip my
hat to any and all that can kicksmack
AND maintain some semblance
> >of
youth;I just don't believe it's a given.
>
> To quote Burroughs
in JUNKY, he says, "I think I am in better health now as
> a result of
using junk at intervals than I would be if I had never been an
>
addict...Most users periodically kick the habit, which involves shrinking
> of the
organism and replacement of the junk-dependant cells."
>
> I'm not sure
if this is true and in no way back this up, due to the lack of
> knowledge in
the science field. Burroughs goes on to
say that if you
> continuously
shrink cells by continuing to kick the habit, you may perhaps
> live to a
phenomonal age, because you'll constantly be growing.
>
> I DON'T
KNOW! I have seen pictures of some of
the people that you've
> mentioned,
and you're absolutely right. But then
again, Burroughs is still
>
alive... It's interesting(I think).
>
> Greg
Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
And Keith
Richards looks ancient until he touches his guitar and then
his facial
muscles are altered (by bodily memory perhaps?) and he
appears
transformed to a much much younger ghost.
unfortunately
acquaintances of Keith's like Gram Parsons now appear only
as ashes on the
winds of a desert.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:32:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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RACE --- wrote:
<snip a
lot>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
>
> p.s. i
realize that admitting i've not bothered to read such a work is
>
> grounds for
stoning in some circles....
Well, David, you
know what kind of stoning you would get on the Dylan
list I hope.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:40:04 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> One day she
mader me go oustide to "find my thinking cap" I brought to her an
> old dried
animal turd.
wonderful tale.
i can see you at
the one room schoolhouse as the rains fall here on the
plains.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:51:23 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: lurker #254
Need to send this
to the list.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: lurker #254
Date: 97-06-15 23:26:36 EDT
From: CVEditions
To: dcarter@together.net
In a message
dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:
<< All poets are also not visionaries,
doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who
are stuck in one plane of
consciousness >>
DC
Seems like that
old chliche really took hold. Hard to shake learnin'. Make
all thingssequal,
yeah. Have you read Michael Finley In The Temple?
http//www.wwics.com/~tsunami
Ask Charley Potts
(editor) about that poem he turned me on to. Or, we can all
play catch up
from the old beat generation...almost 50 yrs ago. Make in
newer?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:53:43 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> Boys and
> girls, I'm
here to tell you that you have different pee-pees. Let's make it a
> national
concern before this melinium closes!
> Charles
Plymell
Perhaps in his
own Arkansinian way this is what Billy Clinton was
"allegedely"
trying to show Paula.
3 cigarettes
before i must brave the storm to score another pack.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:57:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: lurker #254
I don't like this
new mail system, it makes for too much extra work. Bill
can't we go back
to the old?
CP
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: lurker #254
Date: 97-06-15 23:33:07 EDT
From: CVEditions
To: dcarter@together.net
In a message
dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:
<<
Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
DC
Read any
inspirational poetry recently? I get books of it in the mail. I'd be
glad to send you
some. Most of them come from Arizona and Southern
California. Lots
of inspirational poets out there, too.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:57:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a message
dated 97-06-15 23:28:07 EDT, you write:
<< In Love
Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and
what that means to our souls. >>
Is that the line
"but as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a
screen" I
don't have the text. I used to know the
whole thing by heart. BTW
Tesla memorized
Twain's novels because books were scarce back in his country.
He memorized
Faust.too. That's how he came up with Alternating Current. We
use his memory
tonight!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:37:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Insomniatic Musings #45
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>From FireWalk
Thru Madness Collection, copyright December 1992 David B.
Rhaesa
YAHTZEE
Rolling dice on
Madonna=92s Face, Helter Skelter by my side (the book not
the song). Billie Holiday sang autumn blues with Louis
Armstrong and
Tofu burgers and
sqaush that was fun to make but we didn=92t eat it. Her
first kitchen
failure. It happens to the best of us
... Failures.=20
there=92s no
success like failure and failure=92s no success at all. Dyl=
an
said that. The squash sat in the frij for quite
awhile. She couldn=92t
bear to waste it
... But secretly she believed that it would age like a
good wine. Or that after some bad wine it might taste
like a sweet
success.
North says most
Americans believe Charlie was a mass murderer - But he
didn=92t do the
deeds. Not Tate ...Not LaBianca. Charlie Manson/Not
Charlie
Starkweather And the Boss said it was because =93there=92s a
meannness in this
world.=94 But those weren=92t Charlie=92s
words ... Ju=
st
the Boss
pretending to be Charlie. Like on
Halloween....The only day
we=92re
encouraged to be somebody else. The only
day we=92re encouraged =
to
go beyond our
personality. I put my name in a drawing
at Taco Bell to
see the Boss on
Halloween in Minneapolis where Dylan started out. I
wonder who the
Boss will be for Halloween this year.
I=92d like to
talk to Charlie Manson. The documentary
showed his defense
attorney and
Bugliosi and Charlie and I had to feel inside like Bugliosi
was crazier than
Charlie. I=92d really like to meet him
you know I
haven=92t
admitted that to many people. So much of
what he says makes
sense, but I just
don=92t understand the anger, the violence I want him
explain the anger
to me. Depressives have anger that they
don=92t feel
they deserve to
have. Mass murdereds feel they deserve
anger that they
don=92t have ...
Random anger. Random killings. And I want to ask
Charlie why. His lawyer says that there was a lot of love
on the farm.=20
But why does the
love get criss-crossed with hatred, with bigotry. What
synapses aren=92t
firing. What combination of chemicals is
out of
balance....in
Charlie ... in Bugliosi and why was he the one fate chose
for such a
chemical makeup, for such a tragic role rather than me.
Yahtzee!!!
I=92m rolling
dice on Madonna=92s face and listening to Nine Inch Nails
drive their
spikes through my soul while I think of the Boss again.=20
Just a roll of
the dice. Like Yahtzee. Like Nietzsche. Like Mallarme
=93Un Coup De
Das=94 It=92s just a roll of the dice -
the difference bet=
ween
Charlie and me,
Charlie and you - Manson or Starkweather.
It=92s random
chance. Fate.
Rolling on
Madonna=92s face and Lady Madonna looks up and says what are
the odds of a
virgin birth? and the mathematician and the biologist say
zero and the
priest says miracles can happen just like accidents in
disguise. Then she tells me that Yahtzee isn=92t
completely random. I
hear Burroughs
query =93How random is random?=94 As I
flash on the
sensitive, new
age, marathon man who believes =93there are no accidents.=94=
=20
I think Seth told
him that in a book. I fool with him by
declaring that
my philosophy is
=93there are only accidents.=94 Belief
in complete
non-randomness
and in complete randomness - Marathoner in contrast to
chain smoker and
only the smoker knows that they=92re really saying the
same thing. There may be no accidents but it seems like
there are only
accidents. We know so little of what we know that what
seems accidental
isn=92t and what
seems incidental isn=92t and God is a Bullet or is God d=
ead
and have we
killed him. They said Dylan was
God. But I think they were
joking.
And Kerouac=92s
Dead. Lying over there on the floor. Dead 23 years and
two days. And gazing into his eyes I see Pooh
Bear. Was it on a night
like this that he
said God was Pooh Bear or that Hoffman started the Tao
of Pooh? And if God is Dead does Nietzsche believe
Pooh is dead too?=20
And if he=92s dead
who will say =93Oh Bother,=94 and who will eat the hon=
ey.
A used copy of
=93Howl=94 on the porch where my patch sister smokes a pip=
e.=20
Before the water
ritual cleansed it from her. The best
minds of a
generation. Minds lost somewhere between the monotony of
the fifties
and the monotony
of the nineties. Are you bored? I asked the lost
minds, the best
lost minds of a geenration, lost esarching for a place
where life can
have meaning somewhere between interzone and Casablanca
they walk
aimlessly searching for something that doesn=92t exist ... the
bliss.
The best minds of
a generation, the lost generation, Veblen=92s Theory of
the Leisure
Class, the lost generation is real and it=92s still around
playing games on
hardwood floors listening to jazz rolling dice while
the working class
work their work, hardwood floors with Helter Skelter
and Kerouac for
carpet and Burrough=92s tape still unexplored.
Cut ups. Finding the lost generation in interzone by
cutting through
the present,
cutting through the New York Times, cutting through the
King James
Version, cutting the the Pope=92s picture like Sinead O=92Conn=
or
one Saturday
Night. I cut up the Supreme Court in my
closet last fall
and then Aunt
Abby ended up working for O=92Connor -
Sandra not Sinead. =
=20
Sinead says
it=92s all about child abuse ... that=92s what she=92s say ab=
out
Charlie, I
bet. And how random is child abuse? It is just a roll of
the dice that
says what child will be beaten will be fucked, a roll of
the dice like a
small straight better not take my chance yet I=92ll take
zero for my large
straight still hoping for a Yahtzee, like the Lottery,
the Publisher=92s
Clearinghouse, the Reader=92s Digest Sweepstakes to pul=
l
me out of this
trap, this tunnel. And if I roll the
dice or chant the
chants the white
witch taught me will I win the prize? If
I do will it
be an accident or
destiny or both at the same time.
Randomness and
chaos. one wonders sometimes how the
mathematicians can
sleep at night
with their naive belief in probability.
Last winter in a
maniacal frenzy I
wrote a note to the mathematician who I didn=92t yet
know. I asked a simple question:
=93What is the
probability that you are reading this right now?=94
Well, one would
have to determine the probability of me writing it and
you finding it
and both of those involve an infinite number of possible
options,
alternatives, like if i=92d decided to watch Saturday Night Live
tonight instead
of writing these random words, and as the probability
approaches a
solution you hear that your grandfather was almost killed
escaping from the
firing squad of a Nazi concentration camp and my
ex-wife=92s
mother knew people who knew Charlie Starkweather and maybe I
would have stopped
in Rulo Nebraska and been killed by the creatures who
pass for people
there...and so you decide that the odds are infinity to
one or one in
infiinity and you realize that I have a greater chance of
winning the
Reader=92s Digest Sweepstakes than of you reading this note
and you close
your math book and head for a nudist colony where you can
read poetry and
surf with monkeys, an artist colony randomly created, a
genetic accident
and you wonder about things and accidents.
And Dylan and the
Dead are riding on the Slow Train and Knockin=92 on
Heaven=92s Door
and it brings you back to the hardwood floor and my brain
hurts from the
storms of past/present/and future. The
coffee is gone.=20
I drink it
black. Straight poison. Like Arsenic in Elderberry wine -
Jonathan, Aunt
Abby and Charlie drinking wine with Pooh Bear and Piglet
and the dice roll
and Wendy dies, Peter Pan dies and the Voodoo can=92t
save them. it=92s random, it=92s accidents -- or not
Which dice will
you choose to roll next time?
Kerouac=92s dead
on the floor. Charlie=92s dead in a
prison. Kennedy is
dead. And Dylan and the Dead are on break and
Billie Holiday is singing
about Wishes and
Stars and Moons. Why doe we wish if
there are no
accidents? I wonder out loud. And I ask Kerouac to tell me the answer
- but he=92s dead
on the floor ... and i=92m in the attic and the VCR is
downstairs and I
still can=92t figure out how to make it stop flashing
12:00 like on the
cartoon this morning, but I thought i=92d be seeing a
Yellow Submarine
by now, As I pound th keys wishing for an accident with
her, but Elvis
says accidents will happen, I guess you don=92t wish for
them they just
hit you when you aren=92t looking, and she hands me a new
scorepad and I
can=92t quite understand why there=92s no sex in this drea=
m,
yet and she puts
on the Carpenters =93Close to You=94 And
it=92s time to=
play
Yahtzee again.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:02:15 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: drugs and guns
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I have nothing to
say about drugs and guns and the beats, but i do know
that catholism
and drink are old buddies, and guilt and loving the
sunrise somehow
go together. The really great writers
often start
drinking the hard
stuff at 5, then they taper or they die.I don't think
it means squat
about the validity of their vision or light.
I also
can't imagine not
remembering some of Blake because one loved another
poet. But life is
past imagining , i am continually amazed. The saving
of ones light to
me has been humour humor, humus , humor will get you
through nights of
no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no
humor.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:00 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: drugs and guns
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
humor will get you
> through
nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no
> humor.
> p
Patricia,
Thanks a lot for
that one. I get confused at times as to
which is more
important--sex or
humor. Prefer both, but now I am
reminded of where my
priorities should
lie, so to speak.
And isn't it nice
to see this list actually being interesting again.
Like a Phoenix
from the ashes. Thank God.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:22:04 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: drugs and guns
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> >
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> >
> > humor will get you
> > >
through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no
> > >
humor.
> > > p
> >
> >
Patricia,
> >
> > Thanks
a lot for that one. I get confused at
times as to which is more
> >
important--sex or humor. Prefer both,
but now I am reminded of where my
> >
priorities should lie, so to speak.
> >
> > And
isn't it nice to see this list actually being interesting again.
> > Like a
Phoenix from the ashes. Thank God.
> >
> > J
Stauffer
patricia typed
> well variety
helps a lot. I have the edie book
upstairs, not yet
> mailed. but
this week for sur. i just reply and
hence lose any of the barbs
and roses that spin off of our remarks. some of the best threads have been the
unexpected turn of the screw.
p
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:31:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: more drugs and enlightenments
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
In a message
dated 97-06-16 01:10:29 EDT, you write:
<<
All well and good to say, but you would
probably not even value this
kind of experience if you had not learned to
from a drug based culture.
Unless you had learned to value ephiphany from
Catholicism or the
meditative experience from Buddhism. It comes from either drugs or
religion.
We can all do it, but learning to value it is not a given.
James
>>
Indeed, i was
into Buddhism way before i ever experimented with substances.
But my only interest in enlightenment was as a
way to gain insight into
being a better
painter and sculptor. Here in the US,
drug use is so rampant
and widespread
and has been going on for so long that we can no longer
separate its
influence from out culture, especially in the arts.
As for
existentialism, why do you see it as incompatible with
epiphanies/rediscovering
your child-mind? For me, existentialism
goes with
these
things. Stripping things down to the
bare absurd bleakness of it all,
and just when
you're about to let go and stop bothering to breathe, you
suddenly find
something really really small that reminds you why you want to
live, a stirring
in your mind, and that is the most essential form of
enlightenment
ever. In fact, I sincerely believe that
existentialism and
"enlightenments"
need each other to form a soul capable of minimal wisdom.
I see many connections between Sartre and
buddhist enlightenment, for
instance. Many writers in the post-war era were
horribly dismal but through
all the despair
the beauty of words still came through, even stood out more
in contrast,
giving hope. And showing a playfulness
that some would
wrongfully
attribute to drugs. And you bet they valued it.
In my opinion,
the best artists
have always valued epiphanies, from the beginning of time.
There are spontaneous enlightenments in the
act of creating something that
come neither from
drugs nor from religion. Profane
illuminations.
Of course,
learning to value them is not a given.
But using drugs as a tool
to access them is
a specious method. Because as i said
earlier, there are
many ways of
seeing things that are not inducible by drugs.
And drugs can
make your mind
take paths you don't really want to take, (or that seem ok
when you're high
but reread later they're shallow and obvious) thereby
fucking up your
work, whether it's writing/painting/whatever.
I guess that'
s not true for
things other than pot and acid. Amphetamines and other uppers
make it hard to
concentrate though, i find. The only
drug that i have ever
found a pleasant
and stimulating companion for working is heroin (and opium
too i
guess). I have never had much trouble
producing lots of stuff really
fast. And I don't think that heroin has had as
powerful a cultural impact as
the rest....well,
obviously it has on me. But it affects a
deeper layer of
consciousness
than the others.
So anyway, there are my thoughts for the
evening...have a good
night-------------------------------maya
PS...there i go
opening my big mouth again. i wonder if
this means the
thought-police are
going to send their internet-spies on my trail now for
talking too much!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:40:20 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: inspiration
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> <<
Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
> DC
hmmm...I muse
that inspiration makes one an artist...perhaps even
semi-divine, but
not necessarily a poet. Some
inspiriation could use
the elbow-grease
of 99% perspiration before it becomes a great "work".
Admittedly, some
works of genius flow...but not all logorrhea is great
art...and I
wouldn't categorize much of it as poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:50:20 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
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us
existentialists and us nihilists are compleated misunderstood. it
can became
disabiling literally. shun the
titles. i do not believe in
Nothing. does the double negative twist into I believe
in something or
is something NOT
the opposite of Nothing. I believe in thing perhaps.
that might be a
start. but belief and a wooden nickel
won't get you
water at the bar
down the street ... it is a good start to this who
shambadoozle
about ways of living - since we all seem to have life terms
and death
sentences. but only a beginning and from
these beginings the
paths will
undoubtedly diverge dramatically otherwise things would get
too crowded and
block awareness of the origins of the realization that
you believe in
thing when you say you don't believe nothing.
inverting
and twisting is
sometimes necessary to slide past linguistic roadhouses
that leave so
many of us stranded on weekends like this.
but the
roadhouses aren't
bad places to socialize in collective stuckness.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> To: stauffer@pacbell.net
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-16 01:10:29 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> All well and good to say, but you would
probably not even value this
> kind of experience if you had not learned to
from a drug based culture.
> Unless you had learned to value ephiphany
from Catholicism or the
> meditative experience from Buddhism. It comes from either drugs or
> religion.
We can all do it, but learning to value it is not a given.
>
> James
> >>
> Indeed, i
was into Buddhism way before i ever experimented with substances.
> But my only interest in enlightenment was as
a way to gain insight into
> being a
better painter and sculptor. Here in the
US, drug use is so rampant
> and
widespread and has been going on for so long that we can no longer
> separate its
influence from out culture, especially in the arts.
>
> As for
existentialism, why do you see it as incompatible with
>
epiphanies/rediscovering your child-mind?
For me, existentialism goes with
> these
things. Stripping things down to the
bare absurd bleakness of it all,
> and just
when you're about to let go and stop bothering to breathe, you
> suddenly
find something really really small that reminds you why you want to
> live, a
stirring in your mind, and that is the most essential form of
>
enlightenment ever. In fact, I sincerely
believe that existentialism and
>
"enlightenments" need each other to form a soul capable of minimal
wisdom.
>
> I see many connections between Sartre and
buddhist enlightenment, for
>
instance. Many writers in the post-war
era were horribly dismal but through
> all the
despair the beauty of words still came through, even stood out more
> in contrast,
giving hope. And showing a playfulness
that some would
> wrongfully
attribute to drugs. And you bet they valued it.
In my opinion,
> the best
artists have always valued epiphanies, from the beginning of time.
> There are spontaneous enlightenments in the
act of creating something that
> come neither
from drugs nor from religion. Profane
illuminations.
> Of course,
learning to value them is not a given.
But using drugs as a tool
> to access
them is a specious method. Because as i
said earlier, there are
> many ways of
seeing things that are not inducible by drugs.
And drugs can
> make your
mind take paths you don't really want to take, (or that seem ok
> when you're
high but reread later they're shallow and obvious) thereby
> fucking up
your work, whether it's writing/painting/whatever. I guess that'
> s not true
for things other than pot and acid. Amphetamines and other uppers
> make it hard
to concentrate though, i find. The only
drug that i have ever
> found a
pleasant and stimulating companion for working is heroin (and opium
> too i
guess). I have never had much trouble
producing lots of stuff really
> fast. And I don't think that heroin has had as
powerful a cultural impact as
> the
rest....well, obviously it has on me.
But it affects a deeper layer of
>
consciousness than the others.
>
> So anyway, there are my thoughts for the
evening...have a good
>
night-------------------------------maya
>
> PS...there i
go opening my big mouth again. i wonder
if this means the
>
thought-police are going to send their internet-spies on my trail now for
> talking too
much!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:50:48 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU (Timothy K.
Gallaher) writes:
<< But,
more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
meaning to life (I'm not saying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with
what McVeigh was convicted of
doing? >>
When I say there
is no meaning to life, what I mean is that there is no
meaning beyond this life that you are living. That
doen't mean that this
life isn't
important. It makes this life more important. I just don't think
that there is a
greater purpose (that after we're dead that there's a reward
up in heaven, doing gods bidding etc).
And it is because
this is the only go around that what McVeigh did is so
terrible, stupid
and wrong. Under my belief structure, what McVeigh did was
much more tragic
because I don't think that the people who died have another
chance (like in
heaven or some other afterlife).
The concept of
heaven is like a safety net. It allows people to do a lot of
stuff that they
wouldn't normally do and allows them not to worry about the
consequences. I
think that if more people realized that there is no heaven or
afterlife, they
would understand that this life (that we are living right
now) is sacred,
and maybe do more to take take of it and treat it better.
enjoy, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:09:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-16 00:19:35 EDT, you write:
<< On the
contrary, they had a clearer
purpose and vision than most of us, sordid as
it was. If they thought there
was no meaning to life, they probably wouldn't
have done what they did.
>>
I'm glad someone
can still put meaning into words. Drool,
drool.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:30:32 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a message
dated 97-06-16 02:19:22 EDT, you write:
<< Allen G
broke the
stranglehold that the academicians had on
poetry and opened the door for
more natural poetry. During my visit with Norse I asked him about
this
and he quoted me Eliot. He said that Eliot and WSB are much the same
in
voice but that Eliot went English and WSB
remained American in voice.
He also said that it was no sin that Pound
edited Eliot and that he had
edited many of the beats, including Allen and
that it was very painful
to Allen. >>
Bentz
Yr. right. Pound
was first to bust 'em up, blasting 'em wit imagisms. Even
poor old Frost
had to go to him 'cause the academics at the time wdnt touch
him. Then Allen
and the beats, bless 'em busted the old canons that Frost
foddered, but in
a way held dearly to the academe and finally endorsed it
subscribed to it,
became it. Can't blame him though, Pam said he didn't have
social security.
Except he did become a millionare largely on the govt
funding of the
politics he damned. Something unheard of by Pound, or even Rod
McKuen, who dug
it out his own self. Even with inspirational poetry! Good
quote with Norse.
Yes, you have to be melodramatiic around him! He's right. I
think I've read
that bit of his somewhere. Both WSB & TS Eliot had that St.
Loius voice and B
developed it authentically American down to the midwestern
humor
Charles Plymell.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:04:56 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-06-15 23:28:07 EDT, you write:
>
> << In
Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics
> and
> what that means to our souls. >>
> Is that the line
"but as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in
> patterns on
a
> screen"
I don't have the text. I used to know
the whole thing by
> heart. BTW
> Tesla
memorized Twain's novels because books were scarce back in his
> country.
> He memorized
Faust.too. That's how he came up with Alternating
> Current. We
> use his
memory tonight!
> Charles
Plymell
Well he begins with what some might call
"beat" lyrical quality:
> Let us go then, you and I,
>When the
evening is spread out against the sky
>Like a
patient etherised upon a table;
>Let us go,
through certain half-deserted streets,
>The muttering
retreats
>Of restless
nights in one-night cheap hotels
>And sawdust
restaurants with oyster-shells:
Then does a
cutsey thing with the fog=cat deal.
Then begins the
chant of time to murder and create
Leading to the
museum to the beginning of addressing the metaphysics by
pondering time
and our effects on the universe by participation:
>Do I dare
>Disturb the
universe?
>In a minute
there is time
>For decisions
and revisions which a minute will reverse.
> For I have known them all allready,
known them all --
>Have known
all the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
>I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons;
>I know the voices
dying with a dying fall
>Beneath the
music from a father room
> So how should I presume?
Where is this
farther room? Remember the bus
Further? While it is
tempting to
consider perhaps a string quartet that is playing at a
museum showing, I
suspect that is the vehicle for the mermaids he hears
later, this muse
does come from a farther room. Eliot
then compares
himself in time
to a butterfly pinned and wriggling on the wall, and I
suspect we all
feel that current.
He then goes back
to sex, lonely men, self-depreciation and society til
he returns to the
theme of life, time, and museums (Think that Dylan
thought of the
line "Inside the museum, infinity goes up on trial, etc
without Eliot, I
think not, he "borrowed" it from Prufrock.)
>I am no
prophet -- and here's no great matter;
>I have seen
the moment of my greatness flicker,
>And I have
seen the eternal Footman hold my coat and snicker,
>And in short,
I was afraid.
So Eliot only
tells us in short about his fearsome contact with death
and his destiny
and returns to address time and society and leading to
the culmination
of the questions involving our interchange and exchange
with the field of
energy, Charles this is the long way around to get to
your question
about the quotation, but for those who seem to think Eliot
is lightweight, I
wanted to show the structure and how he cleaverly
weaves the
metaphysical question around the life experience that brought
to his mind the
absurdity of the society that he had joined and chosen,
and the inner
knowledge he had of our roles as the co-creators:
>To have
bitten off the matter with a smile,
>To have
squeezed the universe into a ball
>To roll it
towards some overwhelming question,
....
>It is
impossible to say just what I mean!
>But as if a
magic latern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:
>Would it have
been worth while
>If one,
settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
>And turning
to the window, should say:
> 'That is not it at all,
> That is not what I meant, at all.'
Notice first the
implications of "I have bitten off the matter". The
poem goes on to
discuss the muses as mermaids luring Eliot to his death
if he wants true
poetry. The muses did lure Jack, Neal,
Jimi, Jim, and
otheres. Rimbaud ceased to write rather than follow
them.
But the poem
addresses it all when discussing what our "energy is" to
roll the world
into a ball, and as Socrates said, we see the shadows on
the wall from the
true light, not the true light and here Eliot address
it and the
transitory nature of time and the temporal world.
I think an
amazing tour de force that stretches into Dylan and beyond.
> I should have been a pair of ragged
claws
>Scuttling
across the floors of silent seas.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:38:46 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
In-Reply-To: <33A42667.771F@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
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At 05:29 PM
6/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>DC,
> Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art,
not
>chance/ as
those move easiest who have learned to dance"
>(Essay on
Criticism) Let's see...you say that TS
Eliot is not
>memorable?....off
the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/
>breeding
lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring
>dull roots
with spring rain/ Winter kept us warm/
Covering earth in
>forgetful
snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers" An astounding
>beginning.....
I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th
>C lit..cross
referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,
>etc......
I also find Eliot's voice cross-referencing
itself all over the place when
I'm teaching
twentieth-century literature. I never
have tried to rate
Eliot over
Ginsberg or vice versa. Their poetic
concerns are radically
different (Eliot
reaches to the metaphysicals, Ginsberg to the romantics)
and their poetic
criticism is radically different (Eliot decries what he
calls Blake's
"formlessness"; Ginsberg, meanwhile, hears Blake's voice as
an inspiration
after masturbating).
But their effects on their particular
generations--or, to be more
specific, their
*shaping* and *creation* of the generations in which they
lived and
worked--were more profound, I think, than any other poets of the
century. As far as I know, *Howl* and *The Waste Land*
are the only
twentieth-century
poems which have been published with their drafts in
their entirety in
facsimile editions. Please someone
correct me if I'm
wrong. I turn to this point about facsimile editions
to try to establish a
connection
between the effect these two poets had on readers throughout the
century.
Ginsberg seems as self-consciously
"poetic" as Eliot . . . mabye even more
self-consciously
poetic, because *Howl* came under such vicious attack from
defenders of
decorum (often academic, but of course not always). He
carefully
footnotes most of his collections, and in this way communicates
the literary,
cultural, religious, and political influences he writes
within and
against. Like Eliot, Ginsberg's prose,
essays, footnotes, and
interviews helped
created his career nearly as much as his poetry did.
Allen's footnotes
in the facsimile edition of *Howl* are eloquent and
valuable and, it
seems to me, do an excellent job demonstrating that he was
working
toward--and working within--a poetic form.
Tony
P.S. I'm as guilty as anyone for forgetting at
times just how experimental
Eliot was at the
beginning of his career. Just take a
look at original
responses to the
*Waste Land* in the academic and popular presses--writers
either hailed him
as an avant-garde genius or as a fraud.
I think we
(myself included)
too often confuse Eliot's tradition-minded and
decorum-minded
critical essays with the experimental form of his early poetry.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Blake was
astonished by his own imagination."
--Allen Ginsberg
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:14:19 -0400
Reply-To: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter
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Beat Friends. . .
My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch,
nada, nil, zero, cero, the big fat
goose egg. But, while strolling the shelves at my local
video store, I
found "Where
the Buffalo Roam." Is it worth my
time?
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:24:49 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
In-Reply-To: <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>
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On Mon, 16 Jun
1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> goose
egg. But, while strolling the shelves at
my local video store, I
> found
"Where the Buffalo Roam." Is
it worth my time?
Of course it
is! Its Bill Murray! Its Hunter S. Thompson! What more can
you ask for?
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:37:53 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Mon, 16 Jun
1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch,
nada, nil, zero, cero, the big
fat
> goose
egg. But, while strolling the shelves at
my local video store, I
> found
"Where the Buffalo Roam." Is
it worth my time?
Yes! Great film.
HST speaking at U
of Kentucky commencement last week: "Washington was a bum,
Jefferson was a
bum ... Nixon was a liar, Reagan was a fool, Bush was a ...
My attorney has
just informed me that the hospitality tent has just
restocked the
Wild Turkey. I will continue my address there. ...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:48:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: drugs and guns
Comments: To:
pelliott@sunflower.com
In a message
dated 97-06-16 03:48:34 EDT, you write:
<< But life is past imagining , i am continually
amazed. The saving
of ones light to me has been humour humor,
humus , humor will get you
through nights of no sex but sex won't get you
through knights of no
humor.
p >>
Have you ever
seen the film, "Who framed Roger Rabbit?"?. It's actually a
very trenchant
film, about laughter and imagination (the cartoon characters)
fighting against
Doom (the evil guy who never laughs).
Laughter and dreams
are a biological
necessity without which we die. If we
are bitter and refuse
to laugh at
anything, we are hurting ourselves, preventing ourselves from
really living.
---------------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:22:13 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
Comments: To:
race@midusa.net
In a message
dated 97-06-16 06:38:01 EDT, you write:
<< i do not
believe in
Nothing.
does the double negative twist into I believe in something or
is something NOT the opposite of Nothing. I
believe in thing perhaps.
that might be a start. but belief and a wooden nickel won't get you
water at the bar down the street ... >>
Well, i believe
in everything, maybe that's it. But i don't act on it, cause
not all of it is
good. But it all exists. In fact, every
idea every human
ever had exists,
because it can be realized, whether in the past, present, or
future. Ideas don't die if they're communicated. They
have their own kind of
DNA. One little idea can be grafted into another
person's brain, where it
will grow and
perhaps mutate and turn into something different depending on
what environment
it grows in.
I have to
disagree with you....belief will get you everything. Be careful
what you wish
for, says Burroughs, you might get it.
So while I believe in
good and evil
(evil being the things that lead me to near suicide, and good
being the things
that give me pleasure) I also believe in
selective thought
processes. What I mean is, if you believe that
everything exists all the
time, like I do,
you better be careful what you fantasize about.
Example: my boyfriend dumped me for a girl he
always said he hated. This
hurt me
alot. I took old letters he had written
me saying bad stuff about
her. I wrapped them up in a t-shirt of his that i
had. I also had a lock of
his hair which he
had goven me, so i put it in with the letters.
I made a
little voodoo
doll and stabbed it in the stomach with a swiss army knife. 1
week later he
calls me and begs me to go out with him again (i refused). He
also tells me
that he has been having horrible stomach cramps and had to go
to the hospital
and throws up all the time and the doctors say it's a nervous
disorder they
can' t do anything about. The question
is...Should I feel
guilty about
this??? (he and that girl are now engaged).
Magic is very
real, my friends, and we are all potential shamans. So be sure
you are careful
what you think about, because the mere act of thinking it
could make it
real. Nothing exists until you think it
does.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:50:18 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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bruce
i think dr.hunter
referred to the movie as "a piece of crap". you decide
if you wanna see
it or not.
hahoo.
derek
On Mon, 16 Jun
1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>
> Beat
Friends. . .
>
> My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch,
nada, nil, zero, cero, the big
fat
> goose
egg. But, while strolling the shelves at
my local video store, I
> found
"Where the Buffalo Roam." Is
it worth my time?
>
> Bruce
>
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:49:56 -0400
Reply-To: MARK
NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Eliot & Ginsberg
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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I was glad to
come back from the weekend and read all the really fascinating
discussions going on - I wish I had
been able to take
part, it's things like this that really make the Internet fun.
On Eliot and
Ginsberg - I've always found it slightly strange that Ginsberg
admires Eliot (which is the impression I get
from the list,
anyway), because Ginsberg was influenced so heavily by Williams,
and Wiliams specifically mentions
Eliot as an
example to move away from - too formal, too academic, too British,
too many veiled references. Instead,
Williams focused
on creating an American poetry, based on American voices
relating singuarly American
experiences.
Ginsberg took this a step further, eventually finding his own voice
to relate his own experiences.
So, open question
- did Ginsberg ever clarify this tension
of admiring Eliot
somewhat, but being heavily influenced by
Williams, who
used Eliot as his example of everything _not_ to strive for in
poetry?
Mark Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:28:48 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
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June
16, 1997
James Stauffer
wrote:
>It would be
nice to get Nicosia to answer what documented contacts there
>are. Kerouac had to be aware of those people as he
moved in Buddhist
>circles with
Kerouac and with East/West house people such as Lew Welch,
>Joanne Kyger,
Lorraine Kandel, Tom Field, etc. Watts was a huge presence
>in SF in
those years and Rexroth was also very knowledgable in Buddhist
>matters. All
I really know about Jack's meditative practice is what you
>get in Dharma
Bumms and Desolation Angels. Would like
to hear more
>facts about
his contacts from the biographical experts.
But it is
>interesting
that what worked for say Snyder and Kyger, worked only
>partially for
Lew and Jack. Whatever they learned
sitting and Marin-An
>the bottle
was still too much for both of them. And
of course it is
>rather
judgmental to say that Jack and Lew failed.
Their lives were
>short, and
not particularly happy, but they left great work behind. All
>lives are
different. Of course Snyder, Kyger and Whalen followed up this
>time with
intense work in Japan.
>
Dear James, Jean,
and others:
I honestly don't remember if Kerouac
talked of meeting Watts, but
Watts did write
some nasty put-downs of Kerouac in his book BEAT ZEN, SQUARE
ZEN, and
ZEN. I'm going from memory now, but I
think the gist of Watts'
criticism was
that Kerouac was too much into kicks to be a true Buddhist,
that he hadn't
renounced sex and other pleasures enough and wasn't taking
his Buddhism
seriously in terms of a daily practice.
Figure there might
have been some
jealousy there too, since Watts had been trying to popularize
Buddhism for
quite a while and never got the instant huge audience that
Kerouac did with
DHARMA BUMS. Rexroth surely felt the
same jealousy toward
Kerouac, since he
had been translating from Japanese and Chinese poets for
years. On the other hand, there is a lot to be said
for the fact that Jack
took just as much
as he needed from Buddhism--to minimize the pain of his
own life--and
left the rest. When I talked with
Snyder, his criticism of
Kerouac's
Buddhism closely echoed that of Watts'.
Snyder felt that Kerouac
had been
unwilling to "go all the way" with his Buddhism, and wouldn't give
up the God
concept that true Buddhists are supposed to cut from themselves
with the sword of
the Diamondcutter.
Watts may have been a better Buddhist;
Kerouac more confused; but
clearly Kerouac
had the larger soul.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:03:07 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: my thoughts on the Ginsberg/Eliot debate
MIME-Version: 1.0
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'sup y'all,
I personally
prefer Ginsberg's work on the whole, still i couldn't
classify Prufrock
and the Hollow Men as anything but - visionary - in my
definition.
I think the
ability to remember and recite lines of poetry from memory
is not an
adequate indicator of worth. I mean, i can remember lots of
commercial
slogans, but are they poetic? -- maybe they are... :)
"Image is
Nothing," Sprite's somehow fizzling effervescent Image of
Imagelessness,
hah!
nevertheless, for
me the most memorable and profound part of the
Wasteland is just
a two-word fragment:
Unreal City
one day i was
pacing the living room in a haze meditating the validity o
reality vs.
surreality and. . . unreality . . . and suddenly i recalled
reading Eliot's
Wasteland a few days earlier in school, and i understood
what he meant, or
what I THOUGHT he meant, which after all is probably
more important to
a reader of poesy.
Whitman, who i
regard perhaps the greatest poet of 'em all, rarely,
though
occasionally, can i remember an actual exact written line sequence
of his free
verse, but i can think of the FEELING or the idea of it,
which is more
powerful.
well,
"In U.S. all
intellectuals are deviants." WSB, from The Yage Letters
(from memory) hee
hee hee...?!
if anyone cares,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:19:01 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: A great song
Mime-Version: 1.0
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If anyone has
realaudio go to this address http://www.riversong.com/ and
listen to the new
song by folksinger Bob Martin called "Stella Kerouac" it
is a real treat.
Phil Chaput
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:31:04 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Reply to message
from stutz@DSL.ORG of Mon, 16 Jun
>
>
>HST speaking
at U of Kentucky commencement last week: "Washington was a bum,
>Jefferson was
a bum ... Nixon was a liar, Reagan was a fool, Bush was a ...
>My attorney
has just informed me that the hospitality tent has just
>restocked the
Wild Turkey. I will continue my address there. ...
>
Did he really say
this? I was reading a column written by
the "Minister of
Culture,"
Michael Heaton, in the Cleveland Plain Dealer Friday Magazine
which was
supposed to be quotes from commencement speeches given by the
famous....this
was one of them...I assumed Mr. Minister was making them up...
since I have no
clue who HST is to begin with, I couldn't judge...
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:32:27 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Watts
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There is a new
book out called "Zen and the Beat Way" it's based on
selections from
Alan Watts radio talks and tape recordings adapted and
written by David
Cellers and Mark Watts published by Tuttle. Ironically
they spelled Kerouac
as Karouac on the back cover. That's kind of a big
booboo. Phil
Chaput
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:00:33 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: letter to the prof.
Dear Professor,
Thank you for the opportunity to complete
your Political Anthropology
class. I am currently working on my Final
Paper. I thought I might send you
a sample of it so
that you could steer me away from major blunders and make
suggestions for
changes, and perhaps even tell me to scrap the whole thing
and start over.
I worry that it is too broad, and that you
would rather i analyze
specific
Political/Anthropological "realities", instead of postulating
hypothetical
situations in the style of William S. Burroughs.
The general theme of my paper is the
exploration of how meaning is
constructed and
given limits. How we are trained to
follow certain thought
paths and not
others, unconsciously reproducing conventions of meaning.
These conventions are then called
"reality". The Public Secret
is that this
reality is
constructed and random.
This idea can lead one to think of
everything as absurd, and one loses
the will and
ability to survive, because all meaning in one's life is
deconstructed. That is why it is necessary for it to remain
a Secret if the
present social
order is to endure.
When one refuses to accept these limited
meanings as Truth, one has to
construct one's
own. There are infinite possibilities
for meaning, and one
has to remember
that one's own are just as constructed as anyone else's.
This refusal to think in a conventional way is
a threat to the present
dominant social
order. Paradoxically, creative thought has been the human
species' strategy
for survival since the very beginning.
Perhaps the West
would do well to
begin with accepting this paradox as a basic fact of life.
However, one can reproduce one's
thought-connections in others (Why
would you want to
do this? Well, it would show people
other ways of thinking
and this is
something we are desperately in need of).
This is accomplished
thanks to the
human faculty of Mimesis. Through the
reading of words on a
page, connections
are made in the reader's mind between the images described.
Knowledge can be transmitted this way.
Perceived meaning determines what we do
and how we are. Different ways
of being can be
explored by creating new and unconventional connections
between
things/words/ideas/sensory perceptions.
Writing them down allows
them to be
transmitted. The new connections will
resound in one way or
another in the
reader's mind. If the writer is
successful, the reader's
conscience will
be somewhat altered.
It's nothing you haven't already said in
(title of his book), as you
can see. But if what I have said so far is theory,
then my paper is an
attempt to put it
into practice. Using texts we read in
class and other
sources, I will
explore how conventional thought-control (AKA "culture")
limits us and how
it can be transcended, and how the limits of what we can
become can be
expanded.
If I am correct in my assumptions, you do
not want to have to read 10
pages of text
that is like this letter has been so far.
You don't need me to
repeat what you
have already said in class, either.
Perhaps you will say,
"You have
missed my point entirely; you've got it all backwards and upside
down and inside
out". Please let me know if I am on
the right track with
this page on
(subject of my paper) which I am
enclosing. I am planning on
writing several
thematically related chapters; is this format acceptable to
you? I hope to incorporate the structure &
collapse of several ancient
kingdoms of
Central America (Mostly Maya & Aztec) into my paper (since I
studied that in
college, after all).
My address is:
My phone #:
Again, thanks for
everything; the readings in your class, esp. (The tiltle of
his book),
have helped me enormously in making
sense of the Absurd Chaos of
it all....
For instance, it showed me that writing can
convey and create meaning and
thought (knowledge)
after all, and it doesn't have to be only empty,
senseless words
disguised as academia. Obviously, I have
a long way to go...
but at least I have recovered the will to go
somewhere.
My
deepest respects to you,
------------maya
gorton
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:19:30 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Philip Lamantia
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Dear Experts,
scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not
I find my mind
returning periodically to Lamantia. Does
anyone know
what the current
state of Lamantia scholarship is? Is
there any sort of
critical or
biographical work? What is in
print? My collection is
limited to the
City Lights Pocket Poets #20--Selected Poems,(1943-1966)
and "A Touch
of the Marvelous" which Four Seasons put out in '74.
Who would be good
primary sources to contact? Is he still
alive? Don't
remember. I remember meeting him in North Beach around
'69. My friend
Vale ran the
building on Kearney where they both lived.
Any help would be
appreciated. I will e-mail Vale who
always knew
everybody in
North Beach and will share information.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:46:01 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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Attila Gyenis
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU (Timothy K.
> Gallaher)
writes:
>
> <<
But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
> meaning to life (I'm not saying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
> what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with
what McVeigh was convicted of
> doing? >>
>
> When I say
there is no meaning to life, what I mean is that there is no
> meaning beyond this life that you are living. That
doen't mean that this
> life isn't
important. It makes this life more important. I just don't think
> that there
is a greater purpose (that after we're dead that there's a reward
> up in heaven, doing gods bidding etc).
>
> And it is
because this is the only go around that what McVeigh did is so
> terrible,
stupid and wrong. Under my belief structure, what McVeigh did was
> much more
tragic because I don't think that the people who died have another
> chance (like
in heaven or some other afterlife).
>
> The concept
of heaven is like a safety net. It allows people to do a lot of
> stuff that
they wouldn't normally do and allows them not to worry about the
>
consequences. I think that if more people realized that there is no heaven or
> afterlife,
they would understand that this life (that we are living right
> now) is
sacred, and maybe do more to take take of it and treat it better.
>
> enjoy,
Attila
OK, based solely
on the premise that Timothy Gallagher started with,
"that there
is no meaning to life," I cannot see how you can end up with
the rightness or
wrongness of any act. When you say
"there is no meaning
beyond this life
that you are living. That doesn't mean this life isn't
important. It makes this life more important," you
have changed the
situation and the
original premise. When you say that life
is important,
you are giving it
meaning. You are saying you don't see a
greater
purpose beyond
life, which is the concept of afterlife, a heaven or a
hell. But if you believe human life to be sacred
that is suggesting that
you give it a lot
of meaning. That, in my mind, is totally
different
from the the line
we began with, "there is no meaning in life." To me
that suggests
that there is no meaning anywhere, nothing is more
important than
anything else, either in this life or beyond this life, if
there is such a
thing. That implies to me that
everything is senseless
and random. A tree falling in the woods is no different
than bombing a
building. Both exist solely as something that might
happen. No one has
control of anything
whether that be human acts or acts of the universe.
Nothing has more
or less value than anything else. When
you begin
thinking that
this life is important, you are giving
it a purpose.
I also have
trouble with the concept of heaven as a safety net that
allows people to
do things without worrying about the consequences. The
concept of heaven
is a theological one and cannot exist without a belief
in hell. Churchs that teach there is a heaven also
teach that there is a
hell. Hence the concepts of good and evil. That is totally different
than transcending
the human condition into another level of
consciousness, a
timeless oneness with all things. I
don't think the
idea of heaven
implies that you have another chance, no matter what.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:18:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: inspiration
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Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> >
<< Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
> > DC
> hmmm...I
muse that inspiration makes one an artist...perhaps even
> semi-divine,
but not necessarily a poet. Some
inspiriation could use
> the
elbow-grease of 99% perspiration before it becomes a great "work".
> Admittedly,
some works of genius flow...but not all logorrhea is great
> art...and I
wouldn't categorize much of it as poetry.
I think we agree
on the word inspiration here as a type of spiritual
breath. And yes, I'm saying breath here and not
dunghill. If you have
this breath, and
are in touch with the source from whence it came, and
you are writing
poetry, you can trust that the flow will be true, and
inspired. That's not to say that a poet does not need
to acquire tools
from the study of
other poets. That's not too say that
every poem will
be great. God knows, the collected/complete works of
most poets all
contain the work
of a few off days. But, I also think
that many times
revision is
highly overrated. When words come to
someone fast and
furious, so to
speak, as many times when Ginsberg or Kerouac stayed up
writing day and
night, I think that is an inspired flow, and better left
unrevised. Students are too often taught that
perspiration will make
their work
great. That every revision is an
improvement. You can revise
the hell out of
something but if the breath of inspiration wasn't there
to begin with, it
won't improve it. There are times when
you must trust
your own poetic
vision.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:45:11 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> DC,
> Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art,
not
> chance/ as
those move easiest who have learned to dance"
> (Essay on
Criticism) Let's see...you say that TS
Eliot is not
>
memorable?....off the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/
> breeding
lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring
> dull roots
with spring rain/ Winter kept us warm/
Covering earth in
> forgetful
snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers" An astounding
>
beginning..... I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th
> C lit..cross
referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,
> etc......and
I've never really had occasion to cross reference to
> Ginsberg...I
think that speaks volumes. I also tend
to quote Eliot
> when speaking to people on the topic of
despair/hopelessness...in real
> life
situations.... (more later...kids are
fighting...life)
> sorry about
how I triedto post this earlier...it didn't work obviously
> (and I still
don't have quite enough time to expound on my ideas of
> Pound and
Eliot.....hopefully tonight I'll get more than ten minutes at
> a stretch)
> Barb
I would like to
hear more about how you use Eliot when speaking to people
about
despair/hopelessness in real life situations.
I don't think the
fact that you
don't cross-reference Ginsberg speaks volumes.
I think it
means something
is missing in your views of twentieth century poetry.
Are you implying
that you teach twentieth century literature but do not
draw from the
experience of beat writers? I am still
interested in why
you think Eliot
is more appropriate than Ginsberg. Is it
simply that you
are a more of a
traditionalist in your world and literary views?
Ginsberg freed
poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
poets, including
Eliot. He took poetry to another level.
Is there
something about
that level that bothers you?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:51:19 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> I must say
though that the meaning of life may best be experienced on a
> stoop
watching a Kansas thunderstorm roll in.
The soul of the universe
> opens up and
weeps all over us here on the plains.
and the point of
> life may be
found at the tip of a lightning bolt.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
That is the best
description of the meaning of life that I have read in a
long time.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:03:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> What do you
mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely. You oppose
> it to
"randomness" and the absence of morality. But can't there be meaning
> in chaos and
beyond the polarity of good and bad?
>
I think I equate
meaning with purpose. There can be
meaning in
randomness but
not in chaos. If there is no meaning in
life then your
"intrinisc
Meaning common to humans" does not exist.
I am saying that if
there is no meaning
in life you cannot invent one. If there
is no
meaning you are
right, we can eat, sit, drool, rot away, and it doesn't
matter. I think what you are thinking of is what
people mean when they
say there are
searching for meaning in life. Like
there is one gigantic
answer out there
that one must find. I think that a no
meaning in life
scenario implies
that only is that answer not there but that meaning you
say people must
invent is also not there. No meaning at
all on any
level. Total
chaos.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:10:27 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Memory Babe
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While cleaning
out a room, I came upon a stash of books.
One of those
was Memory Babe,
A Critical Biography of Jack Kerouac.
Since there
have been some on
this list that have said he will be discredited and
that it is not a
good work, I thought it would be helpful to look at
least two of the
comments from the jacket.
"It is by
far the best of the many books published about Jack Kerouac's
life and work,
accurately and clearly written, with a sure feeling for
Jack's own
prose."
William S.
Burroughs
Me, I will side
with WSB. BTW, if anyone is in touch
with Bill, Hal
Norse asked about
him and his health. He also asked me to
pass that
along. If you do and WSB replies, I told Hal I would
mail it to him.
"This is the
Kerouac I knew, his sufferings and his exultations, his
elusive charisma
and his maddening moods. At last he has
been treated
as the serious,
searching soul he was. A great writer
and a great
biographer have
come together, and the result is a book that is
essential for
anyone interested in the development of postwar American
Literature."
John Clellon
Homes
I think these two
men know what they are talking about. To
think that
some biographer
would attempt to write a biography about Jack Kerouac
without examining
in detail Gerry's archives seems to me to be a joke.
Gerry told me
that a better book will be written by the person who can
gain access to
the notebooks of Jack, without restrictions by third
parties, and to
his archives. He also said he hopes it
happens as his
work is what it
was for the times it came out.
It does not sound
like to me the remarks of an ego driven man solely
interested in his
own fame. He has moved on to other
subjects.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:12:41 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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CVEditions@aol.com
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
> DC
> Read any
inspirational poetry recently? I get books of it in the mail. I'd be
> glad to send
you some. Most of them come from Arizona and Southern
> California.
Lots of inspirational poets out there, too.
> Charles
Plymell
Thanks anyway,
I'll pass on that. I would like to know,
however, how you
characterize your
own poetry. Did any poets in particular
influence you?
I decided to say
influence instead of inspire. What do
you see as the
most important
things that have happened in poetry in America, from say
the forties till
now? Just curious.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:18:27 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Memory Babe II
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In the back of my
book, I made this note:
pg 279 -- The coming together -- read again. It says:
... Even Jesus passed by. At that moment the whole universe was
present with
Jack, and he was one with it.
For weeks he puzzled over the
meaning of that vision.
Finally he
decided it was the parable of man's life.
Man passed from
the hell of
darkness before birth into "the LIGHT of the earth, which,
for merely being
LIGHT, is heaven." The development
of a soul on earth
was merely the
successive visions of an eye peeking out of the
darkness. Jack felt that in his trance after the dream
of the Shrouded
Stranger he had
glimpsed another world, a world men could see before
being given the
"light of life." Each world
was but a different sort of
dream, and in
each we rearranged "the memories of other dreams, other
existences, like
file cards."
There is more
about the fisherman.
Read it yourself
if you haven't.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:36:16 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Diane Carter
wrote:
. . . Is it simply that you
> are a more
of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
> Ginsberg
freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
> poets,
including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
> something
about that level that bothers you?
> DC
You seem to be
falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent
inspiration more
legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration?
As an
earlier poster
pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary
and meet a
reception from the lit establishment not that different than
the reaction to
Howl. Both were revolutionary poets in
their times.
Forty some years
later Howl isn't the newest wave either.
I think
literary history
is about change, not a progressive revolution.
When I
go back and read
Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the
chance to reach
Ginsberg's level of advancement.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:04:22 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
In-Reply-To:
<199706170031.UAA18320@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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On Mon, 16 Jun
1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:
> Did he
really say this? I was reading a column
written by the "Minister of
>
Culture," Michael Heaton, in the Cleveland Plain Dealer Friday Magazine
[snip]
yeah that's where
i got it from too. my mother sent me the clip.
> since I have
no clue who HST is to begin with, I couldn't judge...
it was a pretty
accurate summation of the man's rantings...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:54:00 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Diane Carter
wrote:
> . . . Is it simply that you
> > are a
more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
> >
Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
> > poets,
including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
> >
something about that level that bothers you?
> > DC
>
> You seem to
be falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent
> inspiration
more legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration? As an
> earlier
poster pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary
> and meet a
reception from the lit establishment not that different than
> the reaction
to Howl. Both were revolutionary poets
in their times.
> Forty some
years later Howl isn't the newest wave either.
I think
> literary
history is about change, not a progressive revolution. When I
> go back and
read Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the
> chance to
reach Ginsberg's level of advancement.
>
> J Stauffer
I am absolutely
not saying that recent inspiration is more legitimate
than earlier
inspiration. Every era has revolutionary
poets/writers and
they are all
equally important. I think I am just
reacting to the
classist mindset
that would dismiss beat literature as secondary to other
forms of
twentieth century literature. I don't
suggest we don't read
Homer or
Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we recognize when the
consciousness of
poetry is enlarged by a broader vision that builds on
the works of the
past and moves both literature and language ahead.
Genius is genius
no matter what time period. And as far as a progressive
revolution goes,
the fact that you can read from Eliot on daytime radio
and you still
cannot read from Howl suggests that Ginsberg's
contributions to
literature are still misunderstood.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:32:47 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: inspiration
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d2FzIHJlZmVycmluZyB0byB0aGF0IHN0YXRlbWVudCB0aGF0IGdlbml1cyBpcyAxJSBpbnNw
aXJhdGlvbg0KYW5kIDk5JSBwZXJzcGlyYXRpb24uLi5JIHRoaW5rIGl0IHdhcyBFZGlzb24u
Li4uDQooYnVsYnMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGdvaW5nIG9mZikNCkJhcmINCg==
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:55:14 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Philip Lamantia
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:19 PM
6/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Experts,
scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not
>
>I find my
mind returning periodically to Lamantia.
Does anyone know
>what the
current state of Lamantia scholarship is?
Is there any sort of
>critical or
biographical work? What is in
print? My collection is
>limited to
the City Lights Pocket Poets #20--Selected Poems,(1943-1966)
>and "A
Touch of the Marvelous" which Four Seasons put out in '74.
>
>Who would be
good primary sources to contact? Is he
still alive? Don't
>remember. I remember meeting him in North Beach around
'69. My friend
>Vale ran the
building on Kearney where they both lived.
>
>Any help
would be appreciated. I will e-mail Vale
who always knew
>everybody in
North Beach and will share information.
>
>James
>
Dear James, June 16, 1997
Lamantia is still alive, having
survived a bout with throat cancer
several years
ago. (He was a big cigar smoker, wonder
if that contributed?)
He is married to
Nancy Peters, coowner of City Lights, though they always
lived
separately. He used to live in the
building on Filbert Street,
bordering on
Harwood Alley, now Bob Kaufman Place (west side of Harwood).
Just up the first
steep flight of stairs heading up to Coit Tower.
He is a great poet, much
overlooked. Never heard of anyone doing
any serious book
or article on him, though he used to publish in Franklin
Rosemont's
surrealist magazine out of Chicago for a long time, and was
sometimes
mentioned in other articles in that mag (I think it was called
ARSENAL).
You can probably leave messages for him
at City Lights, but he has
been a reclusive
for the past ten years or more. I'm not
sure of the
current state of
his health; he may be too sick to see visitors.
Someone
who used to be
very close to him is Chronicle columnist Stephen Schwartz,
who was once a
Trotskyist surrealist when a group of Marxists (centered
around Lamantia)
used to gather and argue every afternoon at the Savoy
Tivoli on Grant
Street.
Neeli Cherkovski, Bukowski and
Ferlinghetti's biographer, was
another great
friend of Lamantia's, and learned the poetry trade at
Lamantia's feet
(after publishing little mags with Buk in LA).
Cherkovski
has a great
chapter about Lamantia in his wonderful, sadly out of print book
WHITMAN'S WILD
CHILDREN.
If you need Neeli's address and phone,
email me privately.
P.S. Lamantia has a brand-new poetry
collection out with City Lights.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: inspiration
Comments: To:
dcarter@together.net
In a message
dated 97-06-16 23:19:09 EDT, you write:
<< When words come to someone fast and
furious, so to speak, as many times when
Ginsberg or Kerouac stayed up
writing day and night, I think that is an
inspired flow, and better left
unrevised.
Students are too often taught that perspiration will make
their work great. That every revision is an improvement. You can revise
the hell out of something but if the breath of
inspiration wasn't there
to begin with, it won't improve it. There are times when you must trust
your own poetic vision.
DC >>
while i agree i
would have to say that the true test of whether something is
good or not is in
whether you like it enough to keep it when you are
revising.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:47:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Philip Lamantia
Comments: To: Gerald
Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Gerald Nicosia
wrote:
>
> At 06:19 PM
6/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear
Experts, scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not
> >
> >I find
my mind returning periodically to Lamantia.
Does anyone know
> >what the
current state of Lamantia scholarship is?
Is there any sort of
> >critical
or biographical work? What is in
print? My collection is
> >limited
to the City Lights Pocket Poets #20--Selected Poems,(1943-1966)
> >and
"A Touch of the Marvelous" which Four Seasons put out in '74.
> >
> >Who
would be good primary sources to contact?
Is he still alive? Don't
>
>remember. I remember meeting him in
North Beach around '69. My friend
> >Vale ran
the building on Kearney where they both lived.
> >
> >Any help
would be appreciated. I will e-mail Vale
who always knew
>
>everybody in North Beach and will share information.
> >
> >James
> >
> Dear James, June 16, 1997
>
> Lamantia is still alive, having
survived a bout with throat cancer
> several
years ago. (He was a big cigar smoker,
wonder if that contributed?)
> He is
married to Nancy Peters, coowner of City Lights, though they always
> lived
separately. He used to live in the
building on Filbert Street,
> bordering on
Harwood Alley, now Bob Kaufman Place (west side of Harwood).
> Just up the
first steep flight of stairs heading up to Coit Tower.
> He is a great poet, much
overlooked. Never heard of anyone doing
> any serious
book or article on him, though he used to publish in Franklin
> Rosemont's
surrealist magazine out of Chicago for a long time, and was
> sometimes
mentioned in other articles in that mag (I think it was called
> ARSENAL).
> You can probably leave messages for
him at City Lights, but he has
> been a
reclusive for the past ten years or more.
I'm not sure of the
> current
state of his health; he may be too sick to see visitors. Someone
> who used to
be very close to him is Chronicle columnist Stephen Schwartz,
> who was once
a Trotskyist surrealist when a group of Marxists (centered
> around
Lamantia) used to gather and argue every afternoon at the Savoy
> Tivoli on
Grant Street.
> Neeli Cherkovski, Bukowski and
Ferlinghetti's biographer, was
> another
great friend of Lamantia's, and learned the poetry trade at
> Lamantia's
feet (after publishing little mags with Buk in LA). Cherkovski
> has a great
chapter about Lamantia in his wonderful, sadly out of print book
> WHITMAN'S
WILD CHILDREN.
> If you need Neeli's address and phone,
email me privately.
> P.S. Lamantia has a brand-new poetry
collection out with City Lights.
> Best, Gerry Nicosia
Gerry,
Thanks for the
fact filled note.
I am toying with
the idea of writing something on Lamantia.
Am also
working (very
slowly) on a Lew Welch piece. Not sure
what form it will
take. I would appreciate Nelli's snail and
electronic addresses and
will try to track down the piece. I should be able to
find out the
current state of
PL's accessability from my old friend Vale Hamanaka who
worked at City
Lights for years until starting his own
ReSearch
publishing. As I mentioned Philip wa living upstairs from
Vale on
Kearney when I
met him
Thanks for the
help
James
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:23:29 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: perplexed..
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Just so you
know....I am a bit confused following some of these
> responses.
Since I've never participated in a service such as this, I
> have no idea
if this is a unique problem or list problem in general.
> Anyhow....I
must admit I'm not sure if a question is being directed my
> way. The subject heading will be re:lurker
(something I had spewed out
> earlier) but
since a number of people had chimed in during the interim,
> I have no
idea if the last comment is directed at me since my name is at
> the heading
or the prior comments from someone else.
> I am not
ignoring any questions....but I don't think at times they are
> meant for
me, despite the subject title. Damnit! I
want clarity! I'm
> having an
epiphany...or make that an apoplexy right now!
> Sooo...I am
lurker#234 (whatever random thing I chose)...but call me
> Barb...(the
Mike on the address has no interest in literature unless it
> comes in the
form of a mountain bike magazine...or infrared systems)
> For lit.,
I'm the one. Thanks for listening.
> Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:56:12 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Insomniatic Musings #45
Race,
I was captivated
by this whole Yahtzee flow. The synapses
and connections
really crackled
for me. Thanks for sharing it!
Also, being a big
Seth fan myself I really liked the way that tied in with
Maya's bit about
"creating our own realities'. Now
I'm flirting with making
me own little
voodoo doll meself!
Who do
the voodoo?
You do!
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:11:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: my first night out as a poet/somewhat off
list, but NOT really
In-Reply-To:
<97Apr20.100705-0400_edt.585909-171+4871@skywalker.microtec.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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back from
plattsberg, ny and workshop/reading weekend
it was wonderful!
even tho almost no audience, there were approx 8 of us
there, we didnt
read in order, one person began, then the next bridged into
reading either
because of name, idea, feeling expressed. more
conversational
and worked wonderfully a magic circle of proetry
conversation, and
wonderful poets!
as usual i was
the only woman in the place. that's more than ok with me,
but does lead me
to wondering..
the workshop was
wonderful and i got a powerful pome our of it. we were at
art gallery, and
after preliminary 'get rid of the internal censor'
exercises, we
wandered about and wrote pome from reaction to art. here are
my two (first is
bit of a doozy, and really scary to read outloud as, per
usual, my heart
soul and autobiographical reality came
right out screaming
from the pages.
also wrote of a woman huge, beautiful, blowsy, standing in
front of whirling
merry go round. oh, btw, could not have
been treated
more kindly by
craig czury and workshop leader, our very own michael
czarnecki,
beginning with falling asleep on the ferry and almost being
brought back to
my side of river, crew could NOT wake me up, the poets came
onboard and
smiled onto me in some mystical fashion, and there i lay saying
oh you must be
michael, and off we went. plattsberg is bit of armpit town,
trying to get its
act together with the arts and especially coffehouse
reading scene
again. and GUESS WHAT!!!! i found
a used bookstore
with huge
collection of MAD MAGAZINES all in good shape. the published
poets (mike,
craig) bartered their own poetry for books, including an
edition of kenner
pound as well as the rest. i was able to
relax totally
and go with the
flow. night of reading we went out to club afterwards, and
it GUSHED RAIN
the wettest i have been fully clothed, i think, since i was
thrown in
swimming pool on dupont estate, where poets were getting married.
plethora of poets
i love it. ok here are my pomes:
poetry workshop
with michael czarnecki
6/14/97
plattsberg, ny
exercise in word
association. the inital word "vibrant" given by michael
and then we went
to town, then made two poems from any three associated
words in a row
(wonderful exercise which i will use whenever blocked or
bored! (oh yeah,
everyone else wrote straight list of their words. when i
finished min i
noticed it made an "m" sideways) also with out realizing it,
i came back to
beginning.
alive!
potent
portent
message
bottle
shattered
pavement
diamonds
gutter
glitter
superficial
dead
spring
rebirth
pain
awaken!
vibrant
alive!
aglow
love
pure
sullied
dead
lilacs
whitman
father
hatred
frightened
stifled
fled
alive!
again.
________________________
she fell to the
pavement
her diamonds no protection
from guttersnipe life
when love has
been sullied
it is dead
dont send me lilacs
__________________________
2 pomes while
gazing at art:
6/14/97
workshop with
michael czarnecki
plattsberg, ny
etching: in
conclusion
artist: valerie
patterson
In conclusion
you are twelve
years dead,
mother
yet nightly you
rise from your grave
every night,
mother
your face invades
my dreams
wrinkled,
corroded
by years of disappointment
for which you
have always blamed me
there are no
laugh lines
hidden in the creases
of your face
toothless old
crone,
i still fear your bite
in conclusion,
mother
each morning as i rise from my grave
you return to
yours
marie countryman
@mc
6/14/97
workshop with
michael czarnecki
plattsberg ny
painting: the
carousel
artist: maureen
McShane
carousel
Queen
of the carousel
with your mona
lisa smile
eyelids closed in
private ecstacy
standing
arms akimbo
with insolent
grace
the horses dance
for you alone
marie countryman
@mc
_______________
it was
exhilerating to be treated as a POET in my own write
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:09:38 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation/Cantico di Frate
Sole/S.Francesco
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Cantico di Frate Sole by Francesco
d'Assisi (4 october 1226)
Altissimu, onnipotente, bon Signore,
tue so' le laude, la gloria e l'honore
et onne benedictione.
Ad te solo, Altissimo, se konfano,
et nullu homo ene dignu te mentovare.
5 Laudato sie, mi' Signore, cum tucte le
tue creature,
spetialmente messor lo frate sole,
lo qual'e' iorno, et allumini noi per
lui.
Et ellu e' bellu e radiante cum grande
splendore:
de te, Altissimo, porta significatione.
10 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora luna e
le stelle:
in celu l'ai formate clarite et
pretiose et belle.
Laudato si', mi' Signore, per frate
vento
et per aere et nubilo et sereno et onne
tempo,
per lo quale a le tue creature dai
sustentamento.
15 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sor'aqua,
la quale e' multo utile et humile et
pretiosa et casta.
Laudato si', mi' Signore, per frate
focu,
per lo quale ennallumini la nocte:
ed ello e' bello et iocundo et
robustoso et forte.
20 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora nostra
matre terra,
la quale ne sustenta et governa,
et produce diversi fructi con coloriti flori
et herba.
Laudato si', mi' Signore, per quelli ke
perdonano per lo tuo
amore
et sostengo infirmitate et
tribulatione.
25 Beati quelli ke 'l sosterranno in pace,
ka da te, Altissimo, sirano incoronati.
Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora
nostra morte corporale,
da la quale nullu homo vivente po'
skappare:
guai a.cquelli ke morrano ne le peccata
mortali;
30 beati quelli ke trovara' ne le tue
sanctissime voluntati,
ka la morte secunda no 'l farra' male.
Laudate e benedicete mi' Signore et
rengratiate
e serviateli cum grande humilitate.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:11:53 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker
speaks)
In-Reply-To: <33A64298.3B0D@together.net>
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At 12:54 AM
6/17/97 -0700, Diane Carter wrote:
>James
Stauffer wrote:
>> You seem
to be falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent
>>
inspiration more legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration? As an
>> earlier
poster pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary
>> and meet
a reception from the lit establishment not that different than
>> the
reaction to Howl. Both were
revolutionary poets in their times.
>> Forty
some years later Howl isn't the newest wave either. I think
>> literary
history is about change, not a progressive revolution. When I
>> go back
and read Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the
>> chance
to reach Ginsberg's level of advancement.
>>
>> J
Stauffer
>
>I am
absolutely not saying that recent inspiration is more legitimate
>than earlier
inspiration. Every era has revolutionary
poets/writers and
>they are all
equally important. I think I am just
reacting to the
>classist
mindset that would dismiss beat literature as secondary to other
>forms of
twentieth century literature.
Diane--This
reaction is exactly what prompted my post yesterday. And I
think it's what
prompted James's post. (The remark about
Homer is
excellent, and
worth remembering.) I agree that your
remarks are a
"reaction to
a classist mindset": a reaction
that (seems to me) diminishes
Eliot's work
itself rather than going after those folks who would trash
Ginsberg (maybe
in favor of Eliot) without reading beyond the first few
lines of
*Howl*. We have all met those types of
cultural guardians. I
have exhausted
much bandwith on other literature lists with these folks.
For them, Eliot
is a monument that poets like Ginsberg--and, by extension,
all of Allen's
readers--would desecrate. I don't buy
their conception of
how readers and
writers make literary history. I think
their view
fossilizes
literature and culture, and does great disservice to the
substantive and
energizing body of work produced by Eliot and Ginsberg.
>From my own
biographical readings, I doubt that Eliot would have had any
desire, say, to
hang out with Ginsberg in India and speak to enlightened
masters and feed
monkeys from his hotel balcony. And
those who aspire to
be cultural
guardians of Eliot and High Modernism would shrink from the
possibilities
that Allen--and many of his readers--embrace.
But despite
their vastly
different interests, both poets come together in my mind as
two of the most
innovative and influential poets of the century.
>I don't
suggest we don't read
>Homer or
Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we recognize when the
>consciousness
of poetry is enlarged by a broader vision that builds on
>the works of
the past and moves both literature and language ahead.
For some readers
(including me), Eliot says something similar to this in
his essay,
"Tradition and the Individual Talent." The essay is broad
enough to include
a conception of "individual talent" that would appall
those who would
monumental-ize and fossil-ize Eliot. So
what. Let those
particular
readers stew. Remember Emerson, who
reminds us that there is a
huge difference
between "reading" and "creative reading."
>Genius is
genius no matter what time period. And as far as a progressive
>revolution
goes, the fact that you can read from Eliot on daytime radio
>and you still
cannot read from Howl suggests that Ginsberg's
>contributions
to literature are still misunderstood.
I agree. This issue, again, seems to revolve around,
as you say it, a
"misunderstanding"
of Eliot's and Ginsberg's work--not something inherent
in the works
themselves.
Tony
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Snakes look
at you and nod at you and if you speak to a snake, a snake'll
speak to you.
C-o-b-r-a. A cobra is as big as your
left hand or your right
hand, and from
there it's as big as your arm, the muscles, and the muscles
of your upper
arm, and they may be four to six feet long.
There's
different lengths
of snakes, there's different types of snakes.
How many,
God only
knows. Our Lord Jesus Christ knows. If you saw him, he could
tell you. It's very rare that you see Our Lord Jesus
Christ. Very, very rare
. . . . It's very rare that you see a snake."
--William
"Fergie" Ferguson
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:32:55 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: To those following Insomniatic Musings
MIME-Version: 1.0
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quoted-printable
This comes next
in the Firewalk Collection Copyright December 1992 David
B. Rhaesa
Shrink....this
was typed in the same fit of attic poetry in the old
abandoned funeral
home. It is really a tribute to Eduardo
Ricaurte and
the help he
provided me. Without Eduardo i=92d be
gone i=92m certain. I=
n
our negotiations
over disability he made me promise to write an
autobiography
someday. perhaps this is something of a
start. by the
way, I did give a
copy of the Firewalk Collection along with many
many
other writings to
Eduardo so the =93not telling the shrink=94 part in his
case is obviously
tongue-and-cheek. also most of the
comments about
flies are
accurate as well. I should confess that
I have killed a fly
or two since this
but no crickets that I can think of off hand.
the
best thing about
crickets is when they sing along when you=92re playing
the guitar
outside... like leading nature=92s choir.
SHRINK
My shrink says
that my mind is like a Ferrari engine in a Volkswagen
chassis. A Ferrari engine in a Volkswagen
chassis. What a metaphor! I
thought. My shrink often talks in car metaphors. But I thought to
myself when he
said the part about that Volkswagen that if it was a VW
van I think I=92d
like to keep it the way it is. I
didn=92t tell him thi=
s
of course because
he might think I=92m a little crazy but I=92ve always h=
ad
this thing about
VW vans. I was into them even before
I=92d heard the
word Farfegnugen.
But the thing is,
I=92m an idiot when it comes to automotive repairs. I
don=92t even know
how to fix the fuse on my left blinker that hasn=92t
worked since the
day I got my car back from Jim=92s Autobody after $1200
worth of repairs
for running into Jennifer=92s driveway curb.
I remember
thinking all the times I=92d driven under the influence of
controlled
substances and never hit anything.
Driving through LA rush
hour traffic
trying to catch a plane ... After a New Year=92s party with
every
hallucinogen known to man, woman or beast
.... and never hit
anything. And now that I=92m straight as an arrow, I
run into Jennifer=92=
s
curb. But I digress.
I=92ve read Zen
and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance several times and
intellectually I
understand the importance of auto repair to a balanced,
healthy life --
but my technophobia takes over and I just avoid left
turns and hope
that my friend -- a woman who knows about cars and lots
of other
mechanical stuff -- will help me out with it.
I don=92t like to
admit that I=92m helpless, but I really don=92t get tha=
t
auto repair stuff
and I hear that VW van engines need a lot of repairs.=20
Numerous people
upon hearing my fantasy about the VW Van have looked at
me like I was
crazy and said you really have to know how to do your own
auto repair.
BUT
If I had a VW Van
with a Ferrari engine -- it might work and the fuses
on the left
blinker would be from a Ferrari too so they=92d work and I
could drive
around in my White VW Van just like Andrea=92s at Heritage or
Kimberly=92s who
I met once, or the two that used to sit side-by-side
along the highway
with one for sale sign and an unreasonably cheap price
tag on the road
to Lincoln Nebraska.
But I didn=92t
tell my shrink that I liked the idea of the VW chassis. I
didn=92t think
he=92d understand. He=92s a nice man,
but he=92s a little
divorced from the
real world. We were talking about music
one day and
he asked me my
favorite album. I said: =93Dylan,
=91Blood on the Tracks.=
=92=94=20
He said:
=93Who=92s Dylan?=94 I remember thinking
that maybe we needed t=
o
switch places.
I mean this guy
thought the best guitar player of all time was some
classical spanish
guy and I doubt he=92d ever heard of Robert Johnson or
jimi Hendrix or
Jimi Page. So how could he possibly
understand that
some people might
prefer a VW van to a Ferrari?
The thing
you=92ve got to know about shrinks is that you really have to b=
e
careful how much
you tell them. They really think
they=92ve heard it all
-- But I=92d
guess my shrink -- like most shrinks -- thinks that all flie=
s
look alike.
=93Flies, Oh they
all look alike,=94 he=92d say.
But we know
that=92s not true. For example - eye
color. Have you ever
noticed how many
different colored eyes flies have? I
have. And I
wasn=92t on
drugs. There are flies with fluorescent
green eyes, flies
with blood red
eyes, flies with black eyes and blue eyes.
In fact fly
eye color is far
more diverse than human eye color. So
don=92t believe
the shrinks when
they say that all flies look alike. =20
And if you watch
a fly real closely -- don=92t swat it away, just watch i=
t
intently and
don=92t send any threatening thoughts its way -- you=92ll fi=
nd
that flies are
fascinating creatures. =20
Now I must admit,
and please don=92t tell the doctor, that I have on
occasion talked
to flies. Not nearly as often as I=92ve
talked to
crickets. But on occasion I=92ve talk to them. Now I couldn=92t say it =
was
a conversation
but I did get the feeling that the fly understood that I
wasn=92t going to
kill it that I believe that every fly has a right to
life. But I can=92t be sure it was a conversation
because the flies don=92=
t
talk back like
the crickets do.
BUT -- they do
rub their back legs together and flutter their wings in
something that
appears to be orgasmic activity. The
crickets talk back
but they=92re
pretty shy about their orgasms. But crickets
have a right
to life too.
So, I hope
you=92ll join me in starting a movement for nonviolence agains=
t
flies and
crickets and all other creatures. And
we=92ll all get together
in a VW Van with
a Ferrari engine and we=92ll drive over to my shrink=92s
house and we=92ll
put Dylan in the tape deck and introduce him to
reality. We=92ll play Ballad of a Thin Man and let the
Shrink play the
part and walk
around the Van while we mumble along with Dylan
=93something=92s
happening here and you don=92t know what it is, do you, =
Mr.
Jones.=94 ...
and the crickets
will chirp along with the lyrics and their voices are a
little better
than Dylan=92s ....
and the flies
with their many colored eyes will fly around happy that
flyswaters were
banned during the old revolution.
[the talk of
crickets in shrink takes me back to sitting on the porch
playing guitar at
Randy Brown=92s. haven=92t spoken to him
since he had =
my
car towed. wonder how his children are these days. I remember him
telling a story
about kerouac teaching a high school class drunk once.=20
I told him many
many many stories. at the Mill and at
his house when I
was splitting
time between there and Dan and Mary=92s place because my ca=
r
broke down so I
couldn=92t get to the farmhouse in the country and the
fleas took over
in a Pharoahic like plague when I was gone.
]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:48:58 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Insomniatic Musings
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A69207.57A8@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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Wow, RACE. That
was so excellent, and I related to it so much, it feels
weird. How many
of us on this list are in psychotherapy and on psychotropic
drugs? I know I am.
How many of us are former (or current) substance
abusers? I love
this list; I feel so at home.
I dated a guy who drove a white
Volkswagen Vanagon once. He was
schizophrenic.
Ended up breaking up with me cuz' he thought I was an agent
for the
government. He wanted to take the motor out of the Volkswagen and
build a small
aircraft. You seem MUCH saner, RACE, but your poem certainly
brought back
memories for me.
And I certainly can relate to having a
mind and soull that go 0-60 in 5
seconds trapped
in living tissue that is more like a Ford Escort thatn a
Camaro.
*smile* Cheers.
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:47:23 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Comments: To:
GYENIS@aol.com
In a message
dated 97-06-17 04:29:59 EDT, you write:
<<
A again agree, but I do have this theory that
you as a person can never
experience death
and therefore live infinitely (as far as your consciousness
is concerned).
>>
Right on!!
Personally, I would add that reincarnation is
not the soul changing bodies,
but the sort of
death and rebirth of the 'soul' during changes in life (which
changes all the
time) within the same body.
Since we cannot
conceive of the absence of consciousness, it's absence does
not
exist...consciousness is eternal. Like you said.
-----------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:26:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
Comments: To:
dcarter@together.net
In a message
dated 97-06-17 08:27:52 EDT, you write:
<<
Ginsberg freed poetic language from the
boundaries imposed by earlier
poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to
another level. Is there
something about that level that bothers you?
DC >>
am not sure Eliot
IMPOSED that many boundaries...probably broke more. He
introduced the
idea of weird metaphors for artistic effect ("like a patient
etherized upon a
table") and used other images (and forms) endlessly copied
by the
beats. Yes, Ginsberg did create new
criteria of what can be
considered
poetry. Now you can say "Ass ass
asshole" and it's poetic. Among
other things. Of
course, I love him, bless his soul, and there are many
beautiful things
he has written. But i guarantee he and the rest of the beats
would have been
very different if it weren't for Eliot.
And i'm not sure
that "other
level" you speak of wouldn't have happened without him. I do,
however, think
that Ginsberg should at least be mentioned in a class on 20th
century lit. So should William S Burroughs. And Kerouac.
They have such
different styles,
yet they all have influenced literature in a way. But I
would mention
Eliot first, and if i had to chose between one or the other,
who has been more
influential, I would choose Eliot. (so
sue
me)----------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:33:32 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
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MARK NOFERI
wrote:
>
> I was glad
to come back from the weekend and read all the really fascinating
> discussions going on - I wish I had
> been able to
take part, it's things like this that really make the Internet
fun.
>
> On Eliot and
Ginsberg - I've always found it slightly strange that Ginsberg
> admires Eliot (which is the impression I get
> from the
list, anyway), because Ginsberg was influenced so heavily by
Williams,
> and Wiliams specifically mentions
> Eliot as an
example to move away from - too formal, too academic, too British,
> too many veiled references. Instead,
> Williams
focused on creating an American poetry, based on American voices
> relating singuarly American
> experiences.
Ginsberg took this a step further, eventually finding his own
voice
> to relate his own experiences.
>
> So, open
question - did Ginsberg ever clarify
this tension of admiring Eliot
> somewhat, but being heavily influenced by
> Williams,
who used Eliot as his example of everything _not_ to strive for in
> poetry?
>
> Mark Noferi
Other than a very
short portion on Eliot in Ginsberg Verbatim which I
posted earlier in
this discussion, I don't find anything by Ginsberg
that speaks
specifically of Eliot. A quick summary
of that indicates
that he thought
Eliot was formal, striving to create a work of art and
always adapting
to someone elses form. There is however
lots of stuff
about the way he was
influenced by Williams and Pound. If
anyone knows
of any essay
where he spoke of Eliot in any detail, please post it.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:44:51 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
In-Reply-To:
<199706170031.UAA18320@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Mon, 16 Jun
1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:
>
famous....this was one of them...I assumed Mr. Minister was making them up...
> since I have
no clue who HST is to begin with, I couldn't judge...
Diane, please
run, not walk to your nearest library/bookstore and get a
copy of
"Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail 1972 (6?)" by HST.
It's a great read
and I think you'll like the politics.
The style of
writing was
revolutionary.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:58:56 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Walking Home Question
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Seven n the
evenin. Wishin thingsid even themselves
out. Ya gotta know
that im a private
dick see always workin on a case see and im drunk see real
drunk c and im
walkin home makin use of the whole breadth of the sidewalk
and parts of the
gutter. And two girls are sitting behind
a fence and
smokin cigarettes
and im lonely as usual so I offer them a beer which is
very out of the
ordinary for me cause I have a tendon see witch makes me
greedy with
beer. One of the girls likes the
offer. Opens the gate. Makes
a place for me on
the grass beside her. Usual get to know
ewe stuff until
reluctantly eye
mentions eye wants to be a novelist someday.
Damn eye. Ewe
want a
story. Ewe want a story? (Didn't really but eyes always willing to
listen) Ive gotta a story for you. There's this girl. 23.
Former
prostitute now
HIV positive professionally. Didn't
mention ive heard that
story before but
eye changes the channel and starts to wonder why all good
stories are so
sad and painful and told cavalier like and why when she picks
up a long shawl
and lifts it over her head and runs with a baby shes
suddenly the
kinda girl I could love. Why even if I
wrote her biography itd
end up being all
about me. How she knows so much about me
and I know so
much about her
and I realize quick it's the beer telling a piece of the
truth of no
peace. And Eye Reel Lee only remember
the shawl trailing in the
air by a creek
thats floodin and fleedin and how im eternlly nternlly
bleedin. Must mention that to the doc.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:14:45 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Insomniatic Musings
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970617094858.00698be0@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Tue, 17 Jun
1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
> Wow, RACE.
That was so excellent, and I related to it so much, it feels
> weird. How
many of us on this list are in psychotherapy and on psychotropic
> drugs?
In the past I've
taken no less than 6 different SSRIs, probably more. I made
a rear-window
bumper sticker a few years back fashioned to look like those
typical
college/university stickers except mine reads PSYCHOTROPIC STATE.
m
obBeat: came home
drunk at 3am last friday, turned on pbs and watched a show
about dylan and
the beatles. several flashes to old man ginsberg talking
about bob's
lyrics.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:17:58 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Insomniatic Musings
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Michael Stutz
wrote:
>
> On Tue, 17
Jun 1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> > Wow,
RACE. That was so excellent, and I related to it so much, it feels
> > weird.
How many of us on this list are in psychotherapy and on psychotropic
> > drugs?
>
> In the past
I've taken no less than 6 different SSRIs, probably more. I made
> a
rear-window bumper sticker a few years back fashioned to look like those
> typical
college/university stickers except mine reads PSYCHOTROPIC STATE.
>
> m
>
> obBeat: came
home drunk at 3am last friday, turned on pbs and watched a show
> about dylan
and the beatles. several flashes to old man ginsberg talking
> about bob's
lyrics.
my experiences
with psychotropic are somewhat related in "Beyond the
Haldol Haze:
Confessions of a Pyschtropic Veteran", copyright Xmas 1992.
Soon after that i
made a practice of checking into the hospital through
emergency where
they didn't know shit and claiming an allergy to all
psychotropics. the Doctors were angry but they got over
it. In my case
it is a
sensitivity. We've toyed with my brain
sufficiently and found
that one-fourth
of one milligram is adequate to combat a high-mania. Of
course, that's
not what they shoot in your ass as they tie you down in
the leather
straps.
i've been
somewhat interested in the psychiatric records of the various
beat
authors. i imagine those are harder to
get than ..... oh well, i
imagine it's
impossible or close.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:30:32 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: seperated at birth?...
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<199706160328.XAA07510@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sun, 15 Jun
1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:
> >list.
Hell yeah, Kerouac was gorgeous, everybody notices that, so what the
> >fuck's
wrong with pointing it out, ya' know? People need to get a sense of
>
>
> compeltely
off topic of the original message here, but I'm currently
> reading _Off
the Road_, & there are pictures of both Kerouac & Neal
>
Cassady...now this is compeltely superficial here, but am I the only one
> who thinks
that the two guys look like they could be biological brothers?
>
> Diane.
>
> --
> Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
> --Heidi A.
Emhoff
>
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
Diane M. Homza
>
I just finished
_Off the Road_. Even though they may not
have seen each
other as
"biological brothers," there was a lot of discussion between the
two of them about
their blood brother relationship. Jack
even saw Neal as
his lost brother
Gerard in some respects.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:54:00 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: last words..part 1(actual title:
"Secrets")
this is the paper
i wrote for my prof. but i have to send it in parts cause
it's long (each
part is very different so even if you don't like this one
read the next
one):
LAST WORDS
I inhale colors, and I exhale bubbles that
burst in your mind.
Penetrating.
Bubbles with thin skins of words.
I am jaguar, running in slow-motion. Power, speed and agility,
razor-sharp claws
and fangs. I am Death incarnate; he who
breathes in my
musky scent
breathes in fear.
Call me the high priestess. My scriptures are so secret that only I
know them. What I know, I am.
Sometimes I am an eagle who rips out the
heart with its talons and
raises it up to
the sun. No room for regret, sacrifices
must be made to
ensure that the
cycle of change will continue.
I shed a skin with every word I say, every
graceful move I make as I
dance. Every movement grows out of the previous one,
like a film in slow
motion where the
body leaves ghost-traces as it moves...except now I leave
behind past
selves. The beating of the drum
entrances me, pulsing through me
like a heartbeat;
I follow my own footsteps. All of
eternity is contained in
a
microsecond--flashes of color and I am convulsed with a thousand becomings.
What I have been, what I have seen, only I
know. My heart belongs only
to me. My secrets are dangerous, and the Lords would
like to have me killed
because of
them. Like Xquic in the Popol Vuh, I
made a fake heart out of the
sap of a tree and
sent it to them. This is how I freed
myself of them. When
they burned the
heart, the smoke was sweet.
I write my sacred poetry for all to
see. Behind the words is a secret
code that anybody
can decipher if they make the effort.
Those who read it
are contaminated
with its power. It is also highly
contagious.
I leave clues everywhere, but not everyone
can recognize them. Or
interpret them
correctly. Before you can track an
animal, you have to become
that animal, or
you don't know what kind of signs it leaves behind. Is it a
broken twig? A footprint?
A musky smell? You've got to
think like the
animal.
(note: That's the
same reason the best detectives are ex-criminals. They've
been there.)
Having been so
many selves, I know what kind of animal I'm dealing with.
But it has taken me a long time to
decipher my own heart; in fact, it is
a process that
never ends. It is a code that must be
deciphered one word at
a time.
The first word
revealed itself when all other meaning was gone....
~~~~*~~~
It was New York at its most wretched, in
the middle of February. I
quickened my
steps down the icy slope that led to my apartment building,
bringing my
shoulders up so my scarf might reach my ears, struggling to
simultaneously
keep my hands shoved as deep into my pockets as they would go.
Ahead, Riverside Park was as grey as the rest
of the city (had it ever been
green?). Trees reached up like skeletal arms, and with
bony fingers beconed
me towards the
river beyond. The wind pushed at my
back, making my feet slip
forward on the
frozen ground--it seemed as if all the elements were
conspiring
against me on this cold, cold day, testing their power to break me
for their own
amusement. At last I rounded the corner
onto Riverside Drive
and took refuge
behind the large glass door or my building.
I stood for a
moment,
shivering, and looked out once again onto the park. The Hudson was
white, curving
down at the ends like a grimace; through the bars of the
tree-trunks it
really looked like a horrible monster showing its teeth. As I
stood held in
horrified fascination, the monstrous river answered me; I felt
its suffering at
being frozen for so long, such sadness!
And
loneliness...LONELINESS!!
and Yearning to feel even the tiniest morsel of
life move in its
great belly once again...
Slowly, I removed hands from pockets,
pressing their faintly blue skin
against the
warmth of my neck. If only there was
some sign of spring, this
would be enough
sustenance to get me through the winter.
I turned and went
up stairs.
Well, there WAS no sign, or rather, I
could not see any. All I could
see was the snow,
I didn't think about the life that lay dormant underneath.
Now I think, "How could I have been so
blind? Snow-blind?".
In my apartment, I sat on the floor next
to the radiator. I tired to
warm myself by
its heat, and to console myself with the things I learned in
class. In Painting and Scupture, I had become bored
with straight
representation
and started to explore the different effects that come from
putting disparate
elements together. I tried to see beyond
the visual aspect
of things and
create new, hybrid meanings. Our
painting teacher told us that
"The purpose
of art is to make people happy".
The delight and bewildement I
felt for my work
was shared by a few of my peers, but not by my parents.
They called my work "morbid",
"dark", "disturbing", and told me that it was
not good. Where was the happiness I wanted so badly to
give them?
I had poured my soul into these paintings,
and they had told me that
they were no
good, and why couldn't I do something Useful.
I stopped
painting, and
turned to my other passion, Anthropology, hoping that there was
at least one
thing I could do right. In Anthropology
classes I was taught to
analyze by
deconstructing. In one seminar, we had
to say why everything we
read was wrong. We were not allowed to say that a text was
acceptable. I
tried hard, but
there was one issue about which I felt very strongly that
this was not the
right way to analyse it. I was so
convinced that I wrote a
paper about
it. My professor gave me the worst grade
I had ever received,
and refused to
talk to me about it. I thought,
"How can this person whom I
admire so much be
wrong?" I decided that I needed to
change.
Perhaps everything was constructed and
arbitrary, after all. All
meaning
disintegrated in front of my eyes. I was
drowning in the absurd,
helpless. I sank into an abyss of
nihilism--"nothing is real".
There was no
point in anything
any more, especially college. What I had
learned: my soul
is useless, and
what I believed was real and good is not.
Since I was not
allowed, in this
world, to see what I see and feel what I feel, I decided
that I wouldn't
be part of it any more.
~~~*~~~
It was warm, under the security blanket of
oblivion. Free to swim from
one memory to the
next, little films of my life projected themselves in my
mind's eye. Pain, and pleasure, were far away. I didn't live in my body
anymore, but in
liquid dreams, elusive and transitory like purple
incense-smoke of
opium. But always, in some dark corner
of my mind, lurked
fear, and I had
to plunge deeper into myself to ignore it.
Like a foetus,
avoiding the
inevitable pain of birth.
Until, one day, I reached the point where
I had to choose between a
different existence
or none at all.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:56:34 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Last Word (secrets) continued
~~~*~~~
FIRST WORD
I SPY WITH MY
LITTLE EYE SOMETHING THAT BEGINS WITH BE
IS IT GOOD? IS IT
BAD? DOES IT MAKE YOU SAD OR GLAD?
I don't know, I don't care
it doesn't touch me
(anywhere)
::climbs into
stone sarcophagus, lies down facing upwards. slowly shifts
heavy slab into
place.
::when the lid is
securely in place, it is airtight, and totally dark.
DO YOU FEEL IT IN
YOUR BRAIN? DO YOU FEEL IT IN YOUR VEIN?
i do not feel it here nor there! nor
ANYWHERE!
NOT IN MY BRAIN
NOT IN THE RAIN
ALL IS IN VAIN
I MUST BE INSANE.............
::suddenly,
suffocation::
"For what dreams may
come---"
As a matter of fact, it was one of those
"something horrible is chasing
me and its going
to kill me" dreams. They say these
dreams are the peculiar
affliction of
people who feel guilty about something, like when you're
avoiding a
responsibility.
Anyway, I was
running like a murderer...but from what?
runnrunrunning running running running
simultaneously from and after
something but I
couldn't tell what it was
all I knew was I HAD to catch up with it
or else...
But it kept out of sight. It was just
around the corner, a corner I had
not dared to
round before. The corner kept getting
further and further away,
no matter how
fast I ran-- it was just beyond my reach.
Running, running...
NOTHING'S
HAPPENING
If I could just
see what it was...I HAD to know.
(running)
I ran past the
Point of No Return. I only had one drop
of energy left.
I was running on empty. "This is it", I thought. One drop left. The
final
stretch--after this, turning back is as good as death, I might as well
give it one,
last, final PPUUSSHH....
!!THEN SUDDENLY!!
OH, NO! As soon
as horrified recognition crept in, i tried to look away, but
it was too late.
I was in it,
surrounded by it, blinded, deafened by it.
it was the face
of my mother
her face!
She's crying and
it's my fault..
In a convulsion of horror and fear and
grief, I howled.
My underwater
dream over.
The air I now had to breathe scorched my
lungs.
I felt like I was
inhaling all the dust of the world.
~~~*~~~
For three long days and three long nights
I twisted in agony as forces
inside wrestled
for control. Absolute terror. Every nerve in my body
stretched to the
maximum, a Tug-of-War against myself.
A most cruel and
violent exorcism.
Sleep seemed further away than the sun is
to the Underworld. And the
COLD...
A thousand
winters rushing through me.
All the monsters and demons of Hell
laughed evilly as they watched me
turn into
ice. One cell at a time
chrystallizing. A chain reaction.
I saw my imminent doom as just another
ice-statue in their trophy
gallery, fully
conscious but forever cursed with the inability to
move...another
victory for Doom.
If only I could crawl out of this
too-tight skin...
If I killed myself, it would be another
victory for them.
And my parents'
grief...
Could it be that I still loved? After all?
The Destroyer laughed. "Fool!",
said he, "Haven't you learned yet to
cast off that
perfidious illusion?"
"GO AWAY!", I screamed.
I put my hands
over my ears and began to sing.
Destroyer:
(laughs evilly)
: (disappears in puff of smoke)
Maya, or illusion, fighting for the most
insane idea she could dream of,
which was to
love.
~~~*~~~
On the 4th day I
finally reached Sleep.
On the 5th day, I
awoke: 1.Consciousness
2.Opened my eyes
3.Stood up on my new legs*
*this took a long time. My new legs were
weak, since I was used to
swimming and not
walking. I faltered and was unsteady at
first, but soon got
used to it.
On the 6th day,
the sun warmed me, and I decided it must be Spring.
On the 7th day, I
looked at the world with my new sensory powers, smelled it
heard it felt it,
and I saw that it could be alright, sometimes.
I took a deep
breath, inhaling all the colors, and began to write, paint,
sing, dance,
wildly so that I would never again forget what it means to be
alive.
~~~*~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:02:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: more
SECOND WORD
To give shape and color to your fear is to
exorcise it out of you.
Somehow by representing it you take away from
its power.
Sympathetic/Contact magic: 9 out of 10 shamans
recommend it.
The dance of creation and becoming is a
dance of pain and laughter and
healing. It is entrancing, contageous, powerful. If you can help another
person heal, you
might even transcend your own death.
Art is a form of anarchy. It defines itself by breaking rules and
showing that
anything is possible. Chaos is the
mother of creation. Do you
know the joy of
seeing new things? Poetry (visual art,
music, writing) is
sacred in its
power to delight and bewilder. New
connections of meanings,
profane
illuminations, can be transmitted by manipulating the plane of
consistency. Deleuze and Guattari: "The plane of
consistency is the
intersection of
all concrete forms. Therefore all
becomings are written like
sorcerers'
drawings on this plane of consistency, which is the ultimate Door
providing a way
out for them (p251)". What we think
of as the Oppressive
State is only one
dimension out of thousands.
How could I let my parents or a professor
tell me what I can know and
what I cannot
know, when I already know it? From now
on, I give them a fake
heart while I
slip out quietly and get on with my REAL mission. Like a
child, playing
with everything and making Sense out of it; I refuse to be
rendered Useless
by self-proclaimed authorities by submitting to their
cynical view of
humanity and the world. Laughter is a
powerful weapon
against Doom, and
I am determined to arm as many people as possible. There
is a revolution
under way, and the human soul is at stake.
At least now I
know I'm on the
right side.
DREAMS VS. THE DREAM POLICE
We need a new language, we need tools for
understanding understanding
itself. Man's very existence depends on it. We need a change of direction
in the way we see
the world. A change away from the
mechanistic world view.
"We dream of a world in which nature
is seen as alive, in which the
imagination
permeates all reality, in which animals and plants are seen as a
part of the
living texture, the living components, the cells in the life of
Gaia..."--Rupert
Sheldrake
"John Cage, interviewed in San
Francisco, discusses his art, music and
views on the
human condition. Following his growing
interest in Eastern
philosophies, he
began integrating an element of chance into his work"
"At his home in Brussels, Ilya
Prigogine, the `poet of thermodynamics,'
speaks about his
theories which have revolutionized science.
His work on
irreversible
non-linear processes that simultaneously create both order and
disorder
radically challenges our views on time and space."
"The flutter of the moth's wing can
trigger the hurricane. This is not
a poetic
statement. This is the fact of the
matter within this kind of
description of
nature. In other words, very small
changes create cascades
into where whole
states shift and are perturbed."--Terence McKenna
"The most beautiful emotion we can
experience is the mystical. It is
the sower of all
true art and science. Those to whom this
emotion is a
stranger...are as
good as dead."--Albert Einstein
Consciousness=the world. There is no clear distinction between inside
and out. We are connected to everything, good and bad,
and everything is
connected to us.
~~~*~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:01:54 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Walking Home Question
Comments: To:
James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199706171558.IAA05459@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Tue, 17 Jun
1997, James William Marshall wrote:
> Seven n the
evenin. Wishin thingsid even themselves
out. Ya gotta know
> that im a
private dick see always workin on a case see and im drunk see real
> drunk c and
im walkin home makin use of the whole breadth of the sidewalk
> and parts of
the gutter. And two girls are sitting
behind a fence and
> smokin
cigarettes and im lonely as usual so I offer them a beer which is
> very out of
the ordinary for me cause I have a tendon see witch makes me
> greedy with
beer. One of the girls likes the
offer. Opens the gate. Makes
> a place for
me on the grass beside her. Usual get to
know ewe stuff until
> reluctantly
eye mentions eye wants to be a novelist someday. Damn eye.
Ewe
> want a
story. Ewe want a story? (Didn't really but eyes always willing to
> listen) Ive gotta a story for you. There's this girl. 23.
Former
> prostitute
now HIV positive professionally. Didn't
mention ive heard that
> story before
but eye changes the channel and starts to wonder why all good
> stories are
so sad and painful and told cavalier like and why when she picks
> up a long
shawl and lifts it over her head and runs with a baby shes
> suddenly the
kinda girl I could love. Why even if I
wrote her biography itd
> end up being
all about me. How she knows so much
about me and I know so
> much about
her and I realize quick it's the beer telling a piece of the
> truth of no
peace. And Eye Reel Lee only remember
the shawl trailing in the
> air by a
creek thats floodin and fleedin and how im eternlly nternlly
>
bleedin. Must mention that to the doc.
>
>
James M.
>
Thank you for contributing this
piece! It's sort of a mixture
between Lawrence
and Kerouac's treatment of sexual relations/tensions.
The honesty and
symbolism in this piece is wonderful.
Keep up the
creative work.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:02:55 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: last part
THIRD WORD
Having said all this, which is nothing
new, I will now attempt to
understand how it
relates to the present, post-modern world of global
capitalism and
its discontents.
THE STATE AS
MASK. ART AS SACRILEGE. DEFACEMENT AND SECRECY. WHERE IS THE
HUMAN BEING
BEHIND THE MASK? DEMYSTIFYING THE SATE. CAPITALISM AND
SCHIZOPHRENIA.
Are we a nation of paranoid
schizophrenics? Conspiracy theories run
wild. Aliens, Communists, Shiite fundamentalists,
immigrants, cults; these
are only a few of
the faceless multiplicities that threaten our existence,
according to many
Americans. They move stealthily among
us, secretly
disguised as our
neighbors. They are dangerous and want
to kill us. As a
result, we
actively seek out signs of non-conformity and target the
suspicious
subject with derision and loathing until they shrivel up and die.
This method is very effective, but of course a
few tough ones do slip
through sometimes....
This attitude, which most anthropology
students would condemn, is
nevertheless
supported by the most liberal of my peers.
I am constantly
hearing them talk
about an evil, all-emcompassing System, which they spend
all their time
denouncing and fighting against. It is
sometimes referred to
more specifically
as `The government', `Capitalism', `the CIA'.
What is this
all-powerful and
mysterious mechanism that rules their lives and on which
they base their
very identities by opposing?
Of
course it is necessary to criticize the government, but being
systematically
anti-system is to give it much more importance than it really
has. It adds to its mystery and power. How much does the `System', for a
Columbia College
student, REALLY control our lives?
Compared, for example,
to a victim of
the Death Squads in Guatemala? I have
many problems with
mainstream
society, the government and its policies, and consumerism. But
for change to
really occur, it is necessary to influence the thought of the
people in charge,
not to antagonize them with indiscriminate vilification.
This only makes people strike back, like
cornered animals.
To demystify this System, we must first
realize that there are people
behind it,
pulling the levers. Change is possible
is 2 major ways:
1. Infiltration. Get a job in the military, government, CIA,
major
corporation or
some other institution you abhor. Then
do things your way,
with humanism and
an open mind.
2. Contagion. Make poetry, art, films, plays, music that
show reality the
way you see
it. Broadcast it, write it on walls in
public places, make sure
as many people
see it as possible. Preach the joy of
creation, on street
corners. If it sticks in just a few peoples' minds, it
might make a
difference. If you can expand some peoples' consciousness
they will act more
humanely, and
perhaps take responsibility for their actions.
The main point is subtlety and secrecy. Although your motives may be
subversive, it is
important to appear harmless to the institution you are
trying to change,
or you will always remain in opposition to it and thus
powerless against
it. If you can learn to think like the
animal, and if you
are quiet enough,
it will be at your mercy and not the other way around.
I wish I could tell that to the old man who
pickets in front of the
Federal Building
in New Orleans, LA. His sign reads,
"FREE HARRY GOLDGAR,
TELEPATH". If you read the flier he hands out, it
becomes apparent that HE
is Harry
Goldgar. Here is the flier:
(i will post this
when i get a chance to type it up)
At earlier points in my life, as described
at the beginning of this
paper, I would
have agreed with Harry completely. Now,
I realize that it is
not up to `Them'
(AKA The System) to demystify Their goals and procedures. I
refuse to admit
Their control over me by blaming Them for my problems.
~~~*~~~
CONCLUSION
1. Don't let anyone tell you that you cannot see
what you see, believe in
what you see, or
love what you see. Those people are
cynical and, by
definition,
beyond hope.
2. Chaos is the mother of creation and there is
no love stronger than what
you feel for your
own creations. Therefore, love is Chaos,
which is your
mother; stability and security are dangerous
illusions that can destroy you.
3. Change is not only possible, but also
continuous and unstoppable. If you
can dream of
something, and you pass it on to another person, it might come
true.
4. You are much more powerful and real than the
`System' if you know this.
~~~*~~~
"The important thing about art is
that it makes people aware of what
they know but
don't know they know ... This breakthrough results in a
permanent
expansion of consciousness."
--William S. Burroughs
"I call for a theatre in which the
actors are like victims burning at
the stake,
signalling through the flames."
--Antonin
Artaud
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Burroughs,
William Seward. The Western Lands. New York: Penguin Books,
1988.
Canetti,
Elias. Crowds and Power. New York: Farrar, Strauss and Giroux,
1995.
Deleuze, Gilles;
Guattari, Felix. A Thousand
Plateaus. Translated by Brian
Massumi. Minneapolis, MN: University of Minnesota Press, 1994.
Kafka,
Franz. The Metamorphosis. Translated by Willa and Edwin Muir.
New
York: Schocken
Books Inc., 1988.
Goetz, Delia;
Morley, Sylvanus. Popol Vuh. From the translation into
Spanish by Adrian
Recinos. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press, 1991.
Taussig,
Michael. Mimesis and Alterity. New York: Routledge, 1993.
Taussig,
Michael. Shamanism, Colonialism and the
Wild Man. Chicago, IL:
University of
Chicago Press, 1991.
Warren, Kay
B. The Violence Within. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1993.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:30:28 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Philip Lamantia
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Dear
Experts, scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not
>
> I find my
mind returning periodically to Lamantia.
Is he still alive?
> Any help
would be appreciated.
> James
> .-
I had a very
pleasant chat with Phillip about a month ago on Grant Ave
on the North
Beach. He seemed in relatively good health at the time,
although his
throat may have been giving him some problems. I have no
info regarding
your other questions.
BTW, If anyone
who has written to me did not receive a reply, it is
because I didn't
get it. I was gone for a month and most of my email was
lost. Maybe of
interest to travellers: I thought I could get my email
through Hot Mail
from anywhere so I did not unsubscribe from the list.
My provider kept
all the mail, but the memory allocated to Netscape was
outmatched after
missing just a few days, and after that it couldn't
retrieve anything
at all! When I returned after a month about 1500
messages had to
be destroyed before my mail clients could accept email
again.
It is nice to see
our list buzzing with soul searching thoughtfulness.
Leon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:55:08 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Test
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Checking
connection
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:52:56 -0400
Reply-To: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Been a long time. . .
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Welcome back,
Leon! Got any road stories for us?
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:27:04 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
In a message
dated 97-06-16 15:31:39 EDT, you write:
<< Be
careful
what you wish for, says Burroughs, you might
get it. >>
That old saw
doesn't belong to Burroughs; it originated with Oscar Wilde and
some others.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:31:39 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-16 15:31:39 EDT, you write:
>
> << Be
careful
> what you wish for, says Burroughs, you might
get it. >>
> That old saw
doesn't belong to Burroughs; it originated with Oscar Wilde and
> some others.
> Charles
Plymell
in these parts it
was be careful what you pray for - you might get it.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:52:59 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a message
dated 97-06-17 00:19:39 EDT, you write:
<< I would
like to know, however, how you
characterize your own poetry. Did any poets in particular influence you?
I decided to say influence instead of
inspire. What do you see as the
most important things that have happened in
poetry in America, from say
the forties till now? Just curious. >>
DC:
You said
inspiration makes one poetic. You might want to read my poem
Oxybiotic Will
Make You Neurotic at WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXOXY.HTML. At 450
words per minute
should make you flash (if it comes through right). You can
read other poems
at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html especially Vernal
Equinox which
happened as a dream at the very same time Allen dreamed of his
mother. One night
in Washington Allen had read his poem about his mother
before he sent it
to the NY Times for publication and I showed him the poem I
had written about
my father since it was the exact same time of inspiration
for us both. He
looked it over and suggested some changes. I published it
around and
received lots of comments about it. It
would have been futile for
me to have sent
it to the NY Times however. I wrote another poem In Memory of
My Father about
which Allen said was one of the best elegies in the English
language.
My influences are
about the same as everyone's in my generation, the Possum,
Pound, Allen,
Harte Crane, Whitman. However, in contrast to Allen I thought
Williams and
Olson were bores. I read Rexroth's translations mainly. Didn't
see much in the
St. Mark's poets other than Jim Carroll. Didn't care for the
Beats as a whole,
my favorite is Taylor Mead.
I think Allen's
use of his stage was an eye opener and kept poetry free from
the academe for a
while. Unfortunately Allen had to carry the baggage that he
packed which
eventually dragged him down I think. For instance, Whitman's
breadth of
compassion I felt was beyond the politics of the Civil War but
expressed the
suffering and frailty of human action and spirit. I never got a
sense of religion
in Pound's work though I felt he was more comfortable with
many gods.
Ginsberg fell victim to politics and religion while greater poets
placed them in
their more arbitrary roles. That is not to say that a poet
like Milton did
not benefit by his religious lines, but I didn't feel he was
necessarily using
his poetry to proselytize. Even his lines were imagistic
for his time. For
example: "And all the spangled host keep watch in squadrons
bright?" is
as pure an image if not surreal as Crane's "and a serpent swam a
vertex to the
sun/ on unpaced beaches leaned its tongue and drummed." All
these lines are
from memory so they may not be exact. BTW have you read me at
all?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:05:59 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: that old conciousness again
In a message
dated 97-06-17 01:29:30 EDT, you write:
<< I don't suggest we don't read
Homer or Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we
recognize when the
consciousness of poetry is enlarged by a
broader vision that builds on
the works of the past and moves both
literature and language ahead. >>
DC:
I think that
conciousness was enlarged by their broader vision when their
poetry was built.
That's why it still moves both literature and language.
Back to Pound's
definition that literature is news that stays news. And the
word
"ahead", isn't there some neat little Taoist or Zen trick I could
pull
here, like
pulling the tablecloth out from under the servings, leaving them
in place?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:19:43 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Memory Babe
In a message
dated 97-06-17 02:23:01 EDT, you write:
<< Me, I
will side with WSB. BTW, if anyone is in
touch with Bill, Hal
Norse asked about him and his health. He also asked me to pass that
along.
If you do and WSB replies, I told Hal I would mail it to him.
"This is the Kerouac I knew, his
sufferings and his exultations, his
elusive charisma and his maddening moods. At last he has been treated
as the serious, searching soul he was. A great writer and a great
biographer have come together, and the result
is a book that is
essential for anyone interested in the
development of postwar American
Literature."
John Clellon Homes
I think these two men know what they are
talking about. To think that
some biographer would attempt to write a
biography about Jack Kerouac
without examining in detail Gerry's archives
seems to me to be a joke.
Gerry told me that a better book will be
written by the person who can
gain access to the notebooks of Jack, without
restrictions by third
parties, and to his archives. He also said he hopes it happens as his
work is what it was for the times it came out.
It does not sound like to me the remarks of an
ego driven man solely
interested in his own fame. He has moved on to other subjects. >>
I just started
reading Memory Babe. The first two pages tell me that it will
be a greatly
written book.
Please tell Hal
Norse that my son and I visited Burroughs late last month. He
had just had eye
surgery but could see well. I showed him a post I had
printed. He was
chirper as ever. Couldn't sit still. We had just come from
Missoula. He said
his father used to take him fishing up there. He was going
out shooting the
next day into a steel cut out figure a fellow had brought
with some guns
that had been mangled. Bill looked at the guns and muttered
something to the
effect ... why would they want to do this. Never saw anyone
that old that
healthy. Still has a mischievious spark in his otherwise
distant eyes like
a kid who'll be up to something if you don't watch him.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:27:50 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
In a message
dated 97-06-17 05:25:25 EDT, you write:
<< Watts
may have been a better Buddhist; Kerouac more confused; but
clearly Kerouac had the larger soul. >>
Gerry:
The last time I
saw Watts was in the mineral baths in Big Sur. I didn't
notice how big
his soul was because I was looking at all the women who were
bathing with him.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:46:19 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: levels
Rinaldo:
You are on more
levels than an elevator.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:59:29 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: To those following Insomniatic
Musings
Race:
I hope your
johnson rod doesn't fall off.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:14:05 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Zen commandments
In a message
dated 97-06-17 01:29:30 EDT, you write:
<< I don't suggest we don't read
Homer or Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we
recognize when the
consciousness of poetry is enlarged by a
broader vision that builds on
the works of the past and moves both
literature and language ahead. >>
DC:
I think that
conciousness was enlarged by their broader vision when their
poetry was built.
That's why it still moves both literature and language.
Back to Pound's
definition that literature is news that stays news. And the
word "ahead",
isn't there some neat little Taoist or Zen trick I could pull
here, like
pulling the tablecloth out from under the servings, leaving them
in place?
Charles Plymell
trying to resend
as was rejected.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:18:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
In a message
dated 97-06-17 19:46:24 EDT, you write:
<< in these
parts it was be careful what you pray for - you might get it >>
Thank you
Jeazshus.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:53:30 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: the old gun and the odd gun
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Dear plymell, I
appreciate your voice, your lack of sanctomony is a
blessed event. My
vote is for you to Never hesitate to tell us tales of
your travels and
impressions. You have seen and noticed many of those
day to day events
that place much in context for me.
The boys and i
were talking about the future of the magazine , i
venture the
opinion that with the net the art will become multimedia,and
more mobile, that
a poem will be more than illustrated but
accomppanied. I am so excited by the forms that words have
taken in
front of me, the
buchenwald site an excellant example, the getting to
know rinaldo
suggests a smaller more intimate world than i dreamed of
before the net.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:06:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: the old gun and the odd gun
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Dear
plymell, I appreciate your voice, your lack of sanctomony is a
> blessed
event. My vote is for you to Never hesitate to tell us tales of
> your travels
and impressions. You have seen and noticed many of those
> day to day
events that place much in context for me.
> The boys and i were talking about the future of the magazine
, i
> venture the
opinion that with the net the art will become multimedia,and
> more mobile,
that a poem will be more than illustrated but
>
accomppanied. I am so excited by the
forms that words have taken in
> front of me,
the buchenwald site an excellant example, the getting to
> know rinaldo
suggests a smaller more intimate world than i dreamed of
> before the
net.
> p
i agree with
this, but -
there is something
so distinct about the intimacy one feels staying in
the B.Plymell
bedroom at the new Beat Hotel in Lawrence that the
Internet cannot
ever replace in my mind.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:13:02 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat generation/Cantico di Frate
Sole/S.Francesco
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Rinaldo Rasa
wrote:
>
> Cantico di Frate Sole by Francesco
d'Assisi (4 october 1226)
>
> Altissimu, onnipotente, bon Signore,
> tue so' le laude, la gloria e l'honore
et onne benedictione.
>
> Ad te solo, Altissimo, se konfano,
> et nullu homo ene dignu te mentovare.
>
> 5 Laudato sie, mi' Signore, cum tucte le
tue creature,
> spetialmente messor lo frate sole,
> lo qual'e' iorno, et allumini noi per
lui.
> Et ellu e' bellu e radiante cum grande
splendore:
> de te, Altissimo, porta
significatione.
>
> 10 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora luna e
le stelle:
> in celu l'ai formate clarite et
pretiose et belle.
> Laudato si', mi' Signore, per frate
vento
> et per aere et nubilo et sereno et
onne tempo,
> per lo quale a le tue creature dai
sustentamento.
>
> 15 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sor'aqua,
> la quale e' multo utile et humile et
pretiosa et casta.
>
> Laudato si', mi' Signore, per frate
focu,
> per lo quale ennallumini la nocte:
> ed ello e' bello et iocundo et
robustoso et forte.
>
> 20 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora nostra
matre terra,
> la quale ne sustenta et governa,
> et produce diversi fructi con coloriti
flori et herba.
>
> Laudato si', mi' Signore, per quelli
ke perdonano per lo tuo
> amore
> et sostengo infirmitate et
tribulatione.
> 25 Beati quelli ke 'l sosterranno in pace,
> ka da te, Altissimo, sirano
incoronati.
>
> Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora nostra
morte corporale,
> da la quale nullu homo vivente po'
skappare:
> guai a.cquelli ke morrano ne le
peccata mortali;
> 30 beati quelli ke trovara' ne le tue
sanctissime voluntati,
> ka la morte secunda no 'l farra' male.
>
> Laudate e benedicete mi' Signore et
rengratiate
> e serviateli cum grande humilitate.
Rinaldo--
Here in the
suburbs of San Francisco--wishing I could read Italian--
Not just figure
out what I can from my vestigial Spanish and French
correlates--
Drinking good
tequila tho (100 percent agave azule--Cabrito), and even
better GHB--not
beeten and not bowed.
Say hello to the
ghost of Ezra Pound for me
Just read
Kaufman's poem on the City of San Francisco taking down the
statue of St.
Francis by Benny Buffano that used to stand in front of
the church of St.
Peter and St. Paul and North Beach of San Francisco
when Jack and all
were there. Remember the statue myself.
Hatched a
wild plan for
stealing it, but never did.
AFTERWARDS, THEY
SHALL DANCE
In the city of
St. Francis they have taken down the statue of St.
Francis,
And the
hummuingbirds all fly forward to protest, humming
feather poems.
Bodenheim
denounced everyone and wrote. Bodenheim
had
no sweet mariujana dreams,
Patriotic
muscateleer, did not die seriously, no poet love to
end with, gone.
Dylan took the
stones cat's nap at St. Vincent's, vaticaned
beer, do defense.
The poem shouted
from his nun-filled room, an insult to the
brain, nerves,
Save now from
Swansea, white horses, beer birds, snore
poems, Wales-bird.
Billy Holiday got
lost on the subway and stayed there
forever,
Raised little
peace-of-mind gardens in out of the way
stations,
And will go on
living in wrappers of jazz silence forever,
loved.
My face feels
like a living emotional relief map, forever wet.
My hair is
curling in anticipation of my own wild gardening.
But Edgar Allan
Poe died translated, in unpressed pants,
ended in light,
Surrounded by
estatic gold bugs, his hegira bless
by Baudelaire's orgy.
Whether I am a
poet or not, I use fifty dollars worth
of air every day, cool.
In order to exist
I hide behind stacks of red and blue poems
And open little
sensous parasols, signing the nail-in
the-foot song, drinking cool
beatitudes.
>From
"Cranial Guitar" edited by Gerry Nicoscia.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:19:17 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: the old gun and the odd gun
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> Patricia
Elliott wrote:
> >
> > Dear
plymell, I appreciate your voice, your lack of sanctomony is a
> > blessed
event. My vote is for you to Never hesitate to tell us tales of
> > your
travels and impressions. You have seen and noticed many of those
> > day to
day events that place much in context for me.
> > The boys and i were talking about the future of the magazine
, i
> > venture
the opinion that with the net the art will become multimedia,and
> > more
mobile, that a poem will be more than illustrated but
> >
accomppanied. I am so excited by the
forms that words have taken in
> > front
of me, the buchenwald site an excellant example, the getting to
> > know
rinaldo suggests a smaller more intimate world than i dreamed of
> > before
the net.
> > p
>
> i agree with
this, but -
> there is
something so distinct about the intimacy one feels staying in
> the
B.Plymell bedroom at the new Beat Hotel in Lawrence that the
> Internet
cannot ever replace in my mind.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
I have place a
guest book by the bed, and a large peice of drywall with
chalks and
markers in case the next vagrant is an artist.
All the gals
said you were a
sweetie.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:58:03 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Found an old poem that scared me. But here goes.
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I found this on
an old computer disk tonight, so I figured I better do
something with it
before it seeks revenge upon me. David,
keep on
pumping and
plumbing man.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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This twisted
loneliness stretches out like some stranger that is sucking the
life right out of me.
I try to have
hope but the future does not appear in the vision. It all seems
so close up and emeshed that I am suffocating
upon myself.
There is only one
life, one opportunity and I have almost blown this one. How
do I escape, or better yet, live through this
and drop the pain, the excess
baggage that is surely breaking my back?
It seems so dark,
so horrible that I am afraid of my soul, or afraid for it.
Who knows?
I wish that
someone could explain this to me or at least let me in on what is
going on around here. But, I think that we all have to, I have to ,
learn it
on my own.
So, hey give me a
break or two, and I'll try to do the same for you.
Try and help me
understand where this feeling of terror and lostness comes from.
Are we really from a gone world? Is really all this bad? Or, is it just me?
I do not know. But at last, I'm going to try to find out.
Thank you too!
--------------D100D98B7EEAA64E8AA856EB--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:08:55 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: songs
HEY!!!!
been tryin' to
meet you.
Must be the devil
between us,
or holes in my
head,
Whores in my bed,
But Hey.
Where, have you,
been?
If you go, i will
surely die!
We're chained,
we're chai....ained
We're
chai...ai...ained
didn't you hear
my screams?
but you were in
my dreams!
you buy me a
soda...and try to molest me in a parking lot.
She's my fave,
undressing in the
sun.
return to me,
cold.
forgiving
everyone.
got me a movie
i want you to
know
slicin' up
eyeballs
I want you to
know
Girl you're so
groovy
I want you to
know
Don't know about
you
but I
wanna....... be your dog.
A tattooed tit,
says number 13.
Your daddy was a
mother's son, she whispered in my ear.
If things get
bad, we'll go to California.
Vamos a jugar por
la playa.
---------from
songs i listened to today, mostly the Pixies.
-----maya
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:13:31 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Two
Streams of Consciousness
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First of all Id
like to no what happened to Chuck. Was
it that last batch
or was it the one
before that. I don't want to throw
stones but theres a
beautiful serene
lake thats calling the flat stones and chuck is floatin wit
an inner / outer
tube round his waist thats wasted and provides an example
for allthose who
consider being sheep instead of rams. I
enjoy more than I
detest but I
confess that the inanity of it all has me drinking tall.
short short example
of intelligent
life. havnt red th list b.for this. de
facto onlee red a
canadian lit
server b.for. isolation. yep thats we canlit types. th
only beating ive
dun was aparentlee pleasent.
wut th hell r we relee nibblin here on
each others ears fer n.e ways
huh? yeh sure
may.b its a nice sensayshun but fer krysts sake nuthin. just
nuthin. iduno
ware th hell that wuz goin. may.b i 2 shud shoot my livr to
fuk n liv to hell
n b to limits uv flesh n write a shnazee novel r poetree
cycle bout it but
to wut ends.
fuk i shud eet sumtime but i
dont want to go thru th trubl
i kwote
i dont kwote
y bothr kwoting
when theres so manee words that i kant keep trak uv n too
manee thots that
i dont giv a fuk bout n all these brains n so much cells n
so manee caring
b.ings that its all overwhelming n i (we, for i wont let th
"othr"
get his shot in th dark) its impossible to keep trak yet we do sumhow
dont we?
creeating ideeologies out of air n bits n bytes likher
nikoteenagers
floating around in ileegalities ignored by all yall stuk
inside yerselvs
not caring to leev th loops uv yester(right fukin NOW)day.
next
thanx. gotta get another beer.l HE QUOTES HIMSERLF YEP.
CUZ HE S A SERLF
A GODMAN SUMBITCHIN SERLF
and Ill always
b a minion to your opinions
but dont care for
caring cause caring ll only get you hurt n the end and the
end is
necessitated by a beginning so i dont c wat the fusss bout. were all
gonna take that
which weve heard or learned or weaved into a semi truth to
the grave and a
grave grave itll b since we exalt life the hole (freudian)
time were alive
and I just want to take my feet the fuck away from this
mediocre medium
which in no whay represents any being any feeling any
peeling layers of
who i am or u r or wat we (so patronizingly used) should
do and blue is a
color but more a feeling if u can see a feeling in colors
and if you cant
then to hell with u cause you cant see the difference tween
seeing and
feeling and there isn't one witch makes you stupid as satan
fighting for
heaven when god kicks ethereal ass.
switch.
SWITCH pull th fukin sWITCH goddamnit!!!
caring makes yuh
strong
hurtin makes yuh
wise
BULLSHIT!!!! i weave th web uv disillusion around myself
in hopes uv
sleeping well
but i dont sleep. th splotch is gone my mind is
clear. i wanted
to spell celar clearly. clarity is made by th celar
page ninetey nine
th light uv th
ii's is as a comme(n)t
and zens
aktivitee is as (((white))) lightnin
th (s)word that
kills th man
is th (s)word
that saves th man
page 99 ZEN FLESH ZEN BONES
odlee enuf HE
turnt to page 99 twice in a row as i rowt this askt to repeet
turnt to th same
page twice yep twice yep twice yep twice yep twice yep
aint nuthin worse
than REDUN dance eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
yer frend, .
CHANGE (keep th sex)
Litening struck
four feet from where i sat stoned in a cemetary and i didn't
think about how
lucky i was just how poor of a shot that god was. christ i
couldve nailed
me. what the hell was he or she or it or
fuckit thinkin
because with tran
send dental omniscience youd think the crosshairs d be
straight and im
busy thinking i should be dead and gods a piss poor shot
with fright
potential but no precision and i exist drunkenly so i can be on
his or her or its
childish wavelength and make galaxies into pretty swirls
and planets into
breaks of radiation and the sky has turned dark but we
think nothing of
it in the coarse of a day.
new male
mail screwin with
my hed jeeeeezus this computadora is sum skareee shit.
listen i dont
care whose on this im jus tawkin jus not relee carin that this
is a beet list (i
dont like vegetables much n.e ways).
lets live lets write wrong lets not
give a fuk lets run thru th bush
b.ing
b.ing.bing.bing.bing.bing. sounds like sum budees car alarm goin off
there is no
world
sinseerlee
j.p. harris
james. emmmmmmm marshall.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:08:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Second post
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Sorry for the repetition,
but the text didn't come out right on my email
reader. So, I will try with this html version. If you didn't like it
first time, the
delete key should be in reach of your right pinky. ;-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun
1997 01:03:06 -0400
From: bocelts@scsn.net
(R. Bentz Kirby)
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
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--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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<P>This
twisted loneliness stretches out like some stranger that is sucking the
life right out of me.</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>I try to
have hope but the future does not appear in the vision. It all
seems so close up and
emeshed that I am
suffocating upon myself.</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>There is
only one life, one opportunity and I have almost blown this one.
How do I escape, or
better yet, live
through this and drop the pain, the excess baggage that is
surely breaking my back?</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>It seems
so dark, so horrible that I am afraid of my soul, or afraid for it.
Who knows?</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>I wish
that someone could explain this to me or at least let me in on what is
going on around here.
But, I think that
we all have to, I have to , learn it on my own.</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>So, hey
give me a break or two, and I'll try to do the same for you.</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>Try and
help me understand where this feeling of terror and lostness comes
from.
Are we really
from a gone
world? Is really all this bad? Or, is it just me? I do not know.
But at last, I'm
going to try to find
out.</P>
<BR
WP="BR1"><BR WP="BR2">
<P>Thank
you too!</P>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--------------81597EF3B1783351B5B85148--
--------------744D22C0607122DABD6DF92F--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:13:30 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Last of the Mocassins
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Just wanted to
urge all you other Beatophiles to read
Mr. Plymell's
book. Should read his pomes too, but that's another
post.
If you're looking
at it primarily as social history it is a great window
to the early
sixties in the west and midwest as the hip scene was
morphing into the
psychaedelic thing. Same time roughly as
Farina's
"Been Down
So Long." Very different book. "Down" is the college world
seen with a folky
sountrack. "Mocassins" is
urban and rural hip
intellectual and
working class with a sound track by Chuck Berry, Bo
Diddley and
Charley Parker, mixed by Wolfman Jack.
"On the
Road" without the sentimentality.
Plymell works like cimema
verite. The book begins and end with the death of his
sister but the
narrative isn't
plotted. Slices of life connected
principally by the
need to keep
moving. Wonderful characters and those
great old drugs.
"Oxybiotic
will make you neurotic."
A definite thumbs
up from this reader. Buy the book. Charley deserves
the money.
James Stauffer
"Bruce and I
took off for Guadalajara, Old Mexico in his '52 Ford. Out
in the pitch
black of the Sonoran desert. No lights
on the horizon. If
we turned the lights
off it would be dark as a vault. The
desert
coughed up one
star. Heads of horses would jut out in
from of the car
lights and speed
around the windshield like snow flakes only this was a
rare dimension
moving face, an archtypal horse face. A
million years of
old faces shining
in the night. They were not things that
fly by night
toward the
windshields but horse faces! horse faces!
The ghost face of
all the dead
horses of the parched steppe of time.
And time itself
frozen into that
endless rain of horse faces! The stars
were their
bits. The supreme king of all rodents. The Pliocene pony and the horse
Pliohippus . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:50:21 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
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>
> Diane Carter
wrote:
> . . . Is it simply that you
> > are a
more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
> >
Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
> > poets,
including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
> >
something about that level that bothers you?
> > DC
Yes, I am
obviously more of a traditionalist...and to a degree sound is
as important as
the images and messages in poetry...otherwise it might
as well be
prose...a speech. And Ginsberg does
favor techniques used by
orators moreso
than poets. Also...I don't think poetry
had been "bound"
or
"enslaved" my sound devices....It is a kind of music where one may
choose from a
plethora of devices. And honestly,
Ginsberg is lacking in
that area. I agree, his imagery and tone are powerful, but he relies
heavily on
parallelism and cataloging, but he never achieves the cadence
of Whitman. Albeit....if cacophony and anger are to be
conveyed, he's
achieved
it....But I still don't think he's the finest poet of this
century.
Respectfully,
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:00:52 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> >
> > DC,
> > Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art,
not
> > chance/
as those move easiest who have learned to dance"
> > (Essay
on Criticism) Let's see...you say that
TS Eliot is not
> >
memorable?....off the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/
> >
breeding lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring
> > dull
roots with spring rain/ Winter kept us
warm/ Covering earth in
> >
forgetful snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers" An astounding
> >
beginning..... I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th
> > C
lit..cross referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,
> >
etc......and I've never really had occasion to cross reference to
> >
Ginsberg...I think that speaks volumes.
I also tend to quote Eliot
> >
when speaking to people on the topic of
despair/hopelessness...in real
> > life
situations.... (more later...kids are fighting...life)
> > sorry
about how I triedto post this earlier...it didn't work obviously
> > (and I
still don't have quite enough time to expound on my ideas of
> > Pound
and Eliot.....hopefully tonight I'll get more than ten minutes at
> > a
stretch)
> > Barb
>
> I would like
to hear more about how you use Eliot when speaking to people
> about
despair/hopelessness in real life situations.
I don't think the
> fact that
you don't cross-reference Ginsberg speaks volumes. I think it
> means something
is missing in your views of twentieth century poetry.
> Are you
implying that you teach twentieth century literature but do not
> draw from
the experience of beat writers? I am
still interested in why
> you think
Eliot is more appropriate than Ginsberg.
Is it simply that you
> are a more
of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
> Ginsberg
freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
> poets,
including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
> something about
that level that bothers you?
> DC
I think Eliot is
more universal than Ginsberg... I think that Howl and
many of his major
works (and I have not by any means read the entire
canon) are
limited, and honestly will end up, not as the major voice of
the 20th C., but
a voice of a period for a particular subsect of the
population. This year I taught Prufrock and Homework to
9th grade
honors
students.....very bright and open students...best I've had in
years...
Anyhow...they did respond positively to both poems...They liked
the imagery of
washing the dirty linen of American politics and
such...very
strong imagery....a cohesive poem. We
worked through Love
Song.....and I
was struck by the fact that weeks after, they still were
referring to the
poem...*grin* I figured they could really relate to the
crippling
self-consciousness...straight out of jr high)
They referred
back to the poem again and again......It is wonderful to
hear "Dare I
eat a peach?" from fifteen yr olds!....Anyhow...Eliot was
able to transcend
his time....doing so quite impressionably....through
more
sophisticated devices for a more complex , richer poem
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:08:03 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: inspiration
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
>
CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a
message dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:
> >
> >
<< Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
> > DC
> > Read
any inspirational poetry recently? I get books of it in the mail. I'd
be
> > glad to
send you some. Most of them come from Arizona and Southern
> >
California. Lots of inspirational poets out there, too.
> > Charles
Plymell
>
> Thanks
anyway, I'll pass on that. I would like
to know, however, how you
> characterize
your own poetry. Did any poets in
particular influence you?
> I decided to
say influence instead of inspire. What
do you see as the
> most
important things that have happened in poetry in America, from say
> the forties
till now? Just curious.
> DC
I'm not sure if
this is directed at me (it did have the lurker title)
Anyhow...I like
your question.....it made me think...and I'd have to say
it would be the
voices of women....loud and strong...and finally heard
in the 20thC...I
am awed by Plath, Sexton, Rich, Bishop, Levertov,
Walker....Women
with strong voices, writing on issues that concern not
only women, but
humanity.....confessionals with which most can
empathize...compelling
poetry..
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:23:25 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Diane
Carter wrote:
> > . .
. Is it simply that you
> > >
are a more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
> > >
Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
> > >
poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
> > >
something about that level that bothers you?
> >
> DC
> >
> > You
seem to be falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent
> >
inspiration more legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration? As an
> > earlier
poster pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary
> > and
meet a reception from the lit establishment not that different than
> > the
reaction to Howl. Both were
revolutionary poets in their times.
> > Forty
some years later Howl isn't the newest wave either. I think
> > literary
history is about change, not a progressive revolution. When I
> > go back
and read Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the
> > chance
to reach Ginsberg's level of advancement.
> >
> > J
Stauffer
>
> I am
absolutely not saying that recent inspiration is more legitimate
> than earlier
inspiration. Every era has revolutionary
poets/writers and
> they are all
equally important. I think I am just
reacting to the
> classist
mindset that would dismiss beat literature as secondary to other
> forms of
twentieth century literature. I don't
suggest we don't read
> Homer or
Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we recognize when the
>
consciousness of poetry is enlarged by a broader vision that builds on
> the works of
the past and moves both literature and language ahead.
> Genius is
genius no matter what time period. And as far as a progressive
> revolution
goes, the fact that you can read from Eliot on daytime radio
> and you
still cannot read from Howl suggests that Ginsberg's
> contributions
to literature are still misunderstood.
> DC
I reread Howl
this afternoon...and I think not so much that it is
misunderstood as
suffering from a very specialized and narrow
audience. I read it and thought.....period piece...I
don't think it
will transcend
time... Usually people can empathsize and relate to
another's
emotional trauma...but it is very difficult to connect to
Ginsberg in
Howl. I do have an appreciation for the
poem...he does
convey some
stunning ideas and displays verbal dexterity and wit...... I
feel as if people
who can relate, would really hoist this poem as the
icon of the the
time and/ or experience...it would be ...the emblem poem
that it is.. But as a reader, I'm an outsider,
gawking and
rubber-necking a
tragedy I can only witness from afar and listen to the
howling without
ever wanting to howl myself.
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:28:08 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-17 07:28:55 EDT, dcarter@TOGETHER.NET (Diane Carter)
writes:
<< The
concept of heaven is a theological one and cannot exist without a
belief
in hell.
Churchs that teach there is a heaven also teach that there is a
hell.
Hence the concepts of good and evil.
That is totally different
than transcending the human condition into
another level of
consciousness, a timeless oneness with all
things. I don't think the
idea of heaven implies that you have another
chance, no matter what. >>
I think
religion's concept of heaven (and hell) is a way to have poor people
accept their fate
instead of fighting for justice.
It's a way for
many people to do what they want, knowing that they have a
chance to repent
at the end.
It allows people
to not be accountable for their actions here on earth,
because they are being
graded up in heaven.
And of course,
the real question is whether there really is a heaven. And if
there isn't, it
it acceptable to say there is a heaven just so that they (the
church) can herd
the people in a certain direction?
Hypothetical question:
Does a rock have a 'purpose'. Is it a bigger or
smaller purpose
then a human. Is it a better or worse purpose then a human's.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:28:11 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Comments: cc:
MemBabe@aol.com
In a message
dated 97-06-17 06:42:12 EDT, you write:
<< Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
> What do you mean by "meaning"?
Not sure i understand completely. You
oppose
> it to "randomness" and the
absence of morality. But can't there be
meaning
> in chaos and beyond the polarity of good
and bad?
> >>
Humans are one of
the few animals (if not the only animal) that are aware of
the fact that
they are going to die. They have this knowledge from a very
early age and
it becomes more acute as they get older.
Because of this
knowledge, they
have questions related to why are they going to die, what
happens to them
when they die, etc.
I think
"meaning" and "purpose", taken in this context, is really
asking are
we on this planet
just to live, and then die, and nothing thereafter. Or is
there a meaning
or purpose beyond that?
Religion was one
of the 'things' that stepped in to try to answer the
questions. Other
philosophies also cropped up to comfort the people in trying
to answer these
very disturbing questions.
I'm not sure
if the religions were: a) really
interested in finding the true
answer to the
questions; b) just serving the people's needs for believing in
something so that
they would just shut up; c) or another way to build up a
power structure
(the catholic church was one of the largest land owners in
the world).
If they tell me
that the purpose of life is to ultimately get into heaven, I
hope that they at
least believe that there is a heaven. I have my doubts
though.
Some people have
responded on this list that the life we are living is the
purpose of life and are content with that.
I say, enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:50:25 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Best concept
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Hopefully I'm
caught up on all responses...I would like to point out
that although I
am defending Eliot as a better poet, I really didn't
want to do so at
the expense of Ginsberg...I would rather just present
Eliot in all his
genius, richness, complexity, and skill...and leave it
at that. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. I did enjoy rereading
Ginsberg and
Eliot...so I think whoever posed the question really did a
service...and I
have enjoyed immensely the insights and input by those
participating.
(ummm...is it my
misperception...or were most of you around in the
'60's...living a
beat lifestyle... Sincerely, I'd just like to gauge.
To my delight, it
sounds as if many of you were part of the movement,
even
contributers! If so, what a boon! a celestial cyber site! I really
dropped in
because I'm reading Kerouac....but it seems as if I'll be
reading much much
more than just Kerouac!
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:18:26 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Best concept
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Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> Hopefully
I'm caught up on all responses...I would like to point out
> that
although I am defending Eliot as a better poet, I really didn't
> want to do so
at the expense of Ginsberg...I would rather just present
> Eliot in all
his genius, richness, complexity, and skill...and leave it
> at
that. Unfortunately, that wasn't the
case. I did enjoy rereading
> Ginsberg and
Eliot...so I think whoever posed the question really did a
>
service...and I have enjoyed immensely the insights and input by those
>
participating.
> (ummm...is
it my misperception...or were most of you around in the
>
'60's...living a beat lifestyle... Sincerely, I'd just like to gauge.
> To my
delight, it sounds as if many of you were part of the movement,
> even
contributers! If so, what a boon! a celestial cyber site! I really
> dropped in
because I'm reading Kerouac....but it seems as if I'll be
> reading much
much more than just Kerouac!
> Barb
i started a
thread awhile back about incorporating beat lit into high
school
curriculums. since you're reading some
Kerouac, do you think he
could fit into
the high school classroom?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:52:55 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: blake and all
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mebbe off topic
but since subject of blake/ AG has come around again
(sorry, very
behind on mail and picking up long ago thread) is anyone
here aware of
greg brown's beautiful renditions of blake into song? CD is
titled songs of
innoncence and experience. the chimney sweeper has never
failed to bring
me to tears. music is beautiful, has
wonderful fiddle
player (peter
ostroususko) as well as rest of fellows on band.
highly recommend
it, absolutely soul wrenching interpretations in music of
the lyrics mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:52:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: heroin and aging
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whoa there! this
thread may be dead, as i am crushed under tons of email
from a few days
away from list, but go down to any methadone clinic, any
innercity and the
idealism will fall away. i worked for 3 years in a new
haven ct methadone
clinic: i counseled i wept and i buried
so many people,
i've been there
myself. there is no glory in it there is no eternal youth
fountain in it.
tortured people tortured bodies. wsb is the exception to
the rule. ok
standing down from my soap box
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:03:14 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Forwarded message
From: MX%"lena@sunflower.com" "Lena Marvin" 18-JUN-1997
00:20:52.28
To: MX%"breithau@kenyon.edu"
CC:
Subj: Re: Welcome!
I willMORE OXY
THAN MORON wrote:
>
> ena, (my
name is Lena but nice try)
>
> I think you
should stay on the list, it is a good group of people and we are
> honored to
have you as our youngest member! I hope you like it. say hello to
> William
Burroughs for us all. By the way, I met James Grauerholtz last night
> for dinner
in Columbus, Ohio. He is secretary to Mr. Burroughs, do you know
> him? He was
in town to drop off boxes of manuscripts to the special
collections
> dept at Ohio
State. Had a great time.
>
> Again,
welcome,
>
> Dave
Breithaupt
I am not yet on
the list, how do I get on?. I met James when we took
some pie over to
William and James was there and 2 outher people. I
think they ate
some pie too. When we where there a cat named fletch came
and was very nice
to me and James said "He (as in fletch) is leting you
do thing that if
I did I would get scratched." When we where leavng
James said some
thing like (I do not rember excatly)"We will rap up the
pie and save it
in the fridgerator and have it tommorow." but even
before James
could say "tommorow" William was geting a pie. It was a
starwberry pie so
he ate a stawberry of the top. When we were leaving, I
nodict that there
where these butiful roses so I walked over and I
smelled them
there was no sent I mean at all it smelt like air and
nothing more. I
had not nodict William had flowed us out and he said
aome thing like I
can not rember "you do not need to smell them the have
no sent. They
really have no sent at all do they?"
I anserd
"that is amazing there is no sent at all!"
And then we left.
But his house there is some thing to talk about it is
wonderful it is
really neat inside he has art work and a wonderful t.v.
set up.
Lena
P.S. will you
send this to the list?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:09:04 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker
speaks)
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> Tony
Trigilio wrote:
>
> Diane--This
reaction is exactly what prompted my post yesterday. And I
> think it's
what prompted James's post. (The remark
about Homer is
> excellent,
and worth remembering.) I agree that
your remarks are a
>
"reaction to a classist mindset":
a reaction that (seems to me)
>diminishes
> Eliot's work
itself rather than going after those folks who would trash
> Ginsberg
(maybe in favor of Eliot) without reading beyond the first few
> lines of
*Howl*. We have all met those types of
cultural guardians. I
> have
exhausted much bandwith on other literature lists with these
>folks.
> For them,
Eliot is a monument that poets like Ginsberg--and, by
>extension,
> all of
Allen's readers--would desecrate. I
don't buy their conception
>of
> how readers
and writers make literary history. I
think their view
> fossilizes
literature and culture, and does great disservice to the
> substantive
and energizing body of work produced by Eliot and Ginsberg.
>
I am not trying to diminish the work of Eliot
or importance. I
also don't think that when you speak of Eliot
and Ginsberg it is as
simple as saying that they both energized
poetry in different ways. I
don't see the historical progression of poetry
as a line where each
generation improves, so to speak, on the next
but more of a circle, here
all poets, consciously or unconsciously
contribute their uniqueness to
the concerns of poetry as a whole, which is
ultimately the concern of
humanness. As you wrote, in another post
"Eliot decries what he calls
Blake's formlessness." I see Blake as
ultimately a great model from
which
grew Ginsberg's vision of Molach. I don't see Ginsberg as being
influenced to any great degree by Eliot. Any scholars of Ginsberg out
there, speak up if I am wrong here. But the connection from Whitman to
Williams to Ginsberg is much clearer. I can
see why people are moved by
lines of Eliot, and why they are captivated by
the metaphysical and
symbolic implications of his poetry. Yet I see Eliot as being removed
by
a layer of something from his own verse. He does not write to America
about America or about individual experience
in a way that even in the
way that even Whitman did. He writes as if
there is a shroud between
himself and his words, and I think that shroud
is the formalness he
thought critical to a work of art. Eliot distances himself from art
while Ginsberg puts himself in the middle of
it. For someone writing in
American today, I see Ginsberg as a much
better model than Eliot.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:21:21 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Zen commandments
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970617211200_1444418147@emout06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 17 Jun
1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Back to
Pound's definition that literature is news that stays news. And the
Hmmmmm, just
finished Twain's "Roughing It".
Seems to me that Pound is
right on on that one.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:31:14 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: that old conciousness again
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> DC:
> I think that
conciousness was enlarged by their broader vision when their
> poetry was
built. That's why it still moves both literature and language.
> Back to
Pound's definition that literature is news that stays news. And the
> word
"ahead", isn't there some neat little Taoist or Zen trick I could
pull
> here, like
pulling the tablecloth out from under the servings, leaving them
> in place?
> Charles
Plymell
I like the
concept that "literature is news that stays news." Great
literature is
timeless. What I take issue with is the
fact that
some of the
people who make up society and eventually history have a
limited vision of
what is possible.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:43:29 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Best concept
Comments: To:
Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us>
In-Reply-To: <33A730D0.63B3@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 18 Jun
1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> dropped in
because I'm reading Kerouac....but it seems as if I'll be
> reading much
much more than just Kerouac!
You might very
well reading more. Do try Gary Snyder's
Turtle Island
(as well as his
others) since you're interested in poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:52:33 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Windowpoopies
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I wonder what
Kerouac meant by "windowpoopies" in the 13th chorus of Mexico
City
Blues....actually, I don't care what it means...all I know is I
laughed for about
20 minutes when I read that!!! Words have a tendency to
do that to me
sometimes......Probably why I love Kerouac. He played with
words, and when I
didn't find a word that suited him to express what he
wanted to
express, he made up is own. --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:56:25 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970618115233.00694d50@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 18 Jun
1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
> I wonder
what Kerouac meant by "windowpoopies" in the 13th chorus of Mexico
> City
Blues....actually, I don't care what it means...all I know is I
> laughed for
about 20 minutes when I read that!!! Words have a tendency to
> do that to
me sometimes......Probably why I love Kerouac. He played with
> words, and
when I didn't find a word that suited him to express what he
> wanted to
express, he made up is own. --Sara
I was just
thinking the other day about the only good part to winter:
no
"windowpoopies" on my car windshield:
No birds. Thanks for the
word.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:00:43 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
Comments: To:
Sisyphus <sisyphus@polaris.mindport.net>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970618115354.23914G-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:56 AM
6/18/97 -0400, Sisyphus wrote:
>On Wed, 18
Jun 1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
>
>> I wonder
what Kerouac meant by "windowpoopies" in the 13th chorus of Mexico
>> City
Blues....actually, I don't care what it means...all I know is I
>> laughed
for about 20 minutes when I read that!!! Words have a tendency to
>> do that
to me sometimes......Probably why I love Kerouac. He played with
>> words,
and when I didn't find a word that suited him to express what he
>> wanted
to express, he made up is own. --Sara
>
>I was just
thinking the other day about the only good part to winter:
>no
"windowpoopies" on my car windshield:
No birds. Thanks for the
>word.
>
>
> It really is a good word, isn't it? My
car is loaded with "windowpoopies"
right now, but
that's OK, cuz'it doesn't look any better when it's not.....
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:49:19 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> DC:
> You said
inspiration makes one poetic. You might want to read my poem
> Oxybiotic
Will Make You Neurotic at WWW.BUCHENROTH.COM/CORNIXOXY.HTML. At 450
> words per
minute should make you flash (if it comes through right). You can
> read other
poems at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html especially Vernal
> Equinox
which happened as a dream at the very same time Allen dreamed of his
> mother. One
night in Washington Allen had read his poem about his mother
> before he
sent it to the NY Times for publication and I showed him the poem I
> had written
about my father since it was the exact same time of inspiration
> for us both.
He looked it over and suggested some changes. I published it
> around and
received lots of comments about it. It
would have been futile for
> me to have
sent it to the NY Times however. I wrote another poem In Memory of
> My Father
about which Allen said was one of the best elegies in the English
> language.
> My
influences are about the same as everyone's in my generation, the Possum,
> Pound,
Allen, Harte Crane, Whitman. However, in contrast to Allen I thought
> Williams and
Olson were bores. I read Rexroth's translations mainly. Didn't
> see much in
the St. Mark's poets other than Jim Carroll. Didn't care for the
> Beats as a
whole, my favorite is Taylor Mead.
> I think
Allen's use of his stage was an eye opener and kept poetry free from
> the academe
for a while. Unfortunately Allen had to carry the baggage that he
> packed which
eventually dragged him down I think. For instance, Whitman's
> breadth of
compassion I felt was beyond the politics of the Civil War but
> expressed
the suffering and frailty of human action and spirit. I never got a
> sense of
religion in Pound's work though I felt he was more comfortable with
> many gods.
Ginsberg fell victim to politics and religion while greater poets
> placed them
in their more arbitrary roles. That is not to say that a poet
> like Milton
did not benefit by his religious lines, but I didn't feel he was
> necessarily
using his poetry to proselytize. Even his lines were imagistic
> for his
time. For example: "And all the spangled host keep watch in squadrons
>
bright?" is as pure an image if not surreal as Crane's "and a serpent
swam a
> vertex to
the sun/ on unpaced beaches leaned its tongue and drummed." All
> these lines
are from memory so they may not be exact. BTW have you read me at
> all?
> Charles
Plymell
I am just
starting to read your work. Have visited
your web site a
number of times
and intend to visit it many more. I am
just now sitting
here ready to
begin to read an autographed copy of Last of the Moccasins
that I ordered
from Jeffrey. I just got Dr. Sax too, so
maybe I can
enter the
Moccasins/Dr. Sax discussion at some point.
As far as the
CORNIX thing
goes, can someone post as to what software one needs to
really view it in
the way it is meant to be viewed, and if it is possible
to download it
from somewhere. Also. I am curious as to
your opinion of
Joyce and did you
read him extensively at any point?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:02:32 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970618120043.00699954@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 18 Jun
1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
> > It really is a good word, isn't it? My car
is loaded with "windowpoopies"
> right now,
but that's OK, cuz'it doesn't look any better when it's not.....
Well, at least it
makes the car look rather disultory, disreputable and
decrepit. I leave mine that way to discourage thieves.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:07:12 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
Comments: To:
Sisyphus <sisyphus@polaris.mindport.net>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970618120031.24706A-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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At 12:02 PM
6/18/97 -0400, Sisyphus wrote:
>On Wed, 18
Jun 1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
>
>>
> It really is a good word, isn't
it? My car is loaded with "windowpoopies"
>> right
now, but that's OK, cuz'it doesn't look any better when it's not.....
>
>Well, at
least it makes the car look rather disultory, disreputable and
>decrepit. I leave mine that way to discourage thieves.
>
>
Mine looks that
way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven a
cool car?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:31:42 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: who was around in the 60's?
Date: 97-06-18 12:26:21 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
In a message
dated 97-06-18 08:30:46 EDT, you write:
<<
(ummm...is it my misperception...or were most
of you around in the
'60's...living a beat lifestyle... Sincerely,
I'd just like to gauge. >>
I think a lot
were around, and are certainly more experienced at writing
(some even
---GASP----published) than i am.
I just turned 22,
have been out of college for 1 year now.
But i guess my
generation, my
friends i mean, are just as beat as beat can be. I hope to
take what we can
learn from the beats and push it one step further (isn't
that the duty of
the next generation?)
I would be
innerested to know about everyone else too.
I have tried to
guess, but am
often wrong. See ya----------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:40:36 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970618122637_-1261939077@emout16.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Wed, 18 Jun
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> I would be
innerested to know about everyone else too.
I have tried to
> guess, but
am often wrong. See
ya----------------maya
I'm 55. Started reading Kerouac & Ferlinghetti in
the 50's while I was
in high
school. It stayed with me. During the 60's I discovered Welch,
Snyder, Lamantia,
Corso. Wasn't until an acid trip in the
early 70's on
Christmas Eve at
a party when I sat away from the turmoil and discovered
Howl. Been down lots of roads. Intend on doin` it again. (but with a
lot fewer drugs
these days. To hell with the rest, I'll
keep my pot 'n
beer.)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:47:50 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
Comments: To:
Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970618123548.24706I-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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I myself am a
whopping 21, and I am soooooo pissed off about all the stuff
I missed for
being born so late!!!! Anybody else in the same predicament?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:29:52 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: my
cat ate my homework
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I was downloading
all my messages, 32, probably mostly beat-l my darn
cat laid on my
keyboard, my machine began flashing and the messages were
gone man, i want
todays messages. if any one can post them to me i would
really
appreciate, I looked in my trash and they weren't there, very bad
cat,
patricia
pelliott@sunflower.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:04:19 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation/wild plan for stealing...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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James Stauffer
writes,
>>>Just
read Kaufman's poem on the City of San Francisco taking down the
statue of St.
Francis by Benny Buffano that used to stand in front of
the church of St.
Peter and St. Paul and North Beach of San Francisco
when Jack and all
were there. Remember the statue myself.
Hatched a
wild plan for
stealing it, but never did.<<<
James,
thax for the
Kaufman's poem quoted, i like it, but
i hope yr wild
plaining to the statua of San Francesco in SF
is gone for ever,
please, james, do a "Fioretto" give
credit to
Francesco d'Assisi, & get rid yr bright idea.
if Jean Louis
Kerouac in his infancy & later was roman
catholic it's honourable
as zen or buddhism or likes
religions,
perhaps he or his mother narrated San Francesco's
life &
miracles & spontaneous prose & poetry...
btw Philip
Lamantia is true catholic:
CONTRA SATANUS by Philip Lamantia
Thy light is higher than
light thy Angels higher than angels
Moons whisper their lights it's the end of the world
Fasting and
reborn The Crystal forms out of moonlight and sunlight
Day and night
Green Crystal Red WHITE BLACK BLUE CRYSTAL
YELLOW CRYSTAL
BROWN CRYSTAL!!
I am Hymnon riding ham/wings
of ACQUARIAS BEARDS OF SAMOTHRACE
JONQUILS FROM
DESERTS OF THE SEA
In my nights of white photography my
mountain fell
my heads rolled
dice in heaven my eyes poured out poison
In my day of love
in my day of love I saw one rock one
strata
one pinnacle one tree one vine one spring of green one flower
one man
one woman I
loved I am Pythagoras Agitator
smiling from
infide blue coins I am paid by light
lights
is
house
of
MINT!
GARDEN LIGHT
OF OF
THE my finger is God!
HIS MONIES GARDEN
WAVES
WAVES WAVES
WAVES WAVES
-it's indesript/I
have gone into inaudia - flocking sun on my
flocking
back+++++ROAR! MALDORORIAN
WAVES! I!+++++
Angel I have not
seen/Angel I've seen
Light of darkness
visitation of noname about to
smash into SMILES
Here is face of
old water Man buried in quickgreen lime fountains of
ZUT GUT
accent over U
-the WAVES! PHOTO
JOURNAL SEA SCAPES fin.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:43:04 -0400
Reply-To: lcrev@law.emory.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: lablugirl <lcrev@LAW.EMORY.EDU>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=gb2312
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Sara Feustle
wrote:
> I myself am
a whopping 21, and I am soooooo pissed off about all the stuff I
missed for being born so late!!!! Anybody else
in the same predicament?
- I myself am 22.
I used to be pissed off about the fact I was 'born too
late', but most
of my friends are at least 25 - said I'm still a baby...
I have come to a
new level of life lately. I spent the last few years
being miserable,
w/ miserable people, living in miserable places, and it
was all so
incredibly negative...
I was in a
horrible stagnant unmotivated, uncreative state (very un-like
me)
I still am moody.
[re: chemical imbalance, ???} - but I've found someone
to share the
things I value & we both love to create - this person is
older & very
intelligent & things are going beautifully... I get my
solitary time to
do what I please & so does he.
Mabye it's a sort
of 'enlightenment' - and it has given me somthing
positive to grow
with. I'm meeting people who come from all different
age groups,
exceptional people, & realizing that you can't dwell on the
past, but learn
from them & aprechiate it, and that brings much beauty &
happiness to your
life - I feel my inspiration returning...
Alice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:41:47 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Jo and Jeff
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks, Jo G sent
me what i believe to be the bulk of todays mail ,
calling in the darkness
and the beat responds with heart. I
finally
sent in my money
for the beat l teeshirt, so do you think it will be
here before s
clay hits town (lawrence) i want to be a cool, old, fat
and faded hippy
fan. keep on trucking you persons.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:45:53 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation/Ezra Pound, winter
1970/reverie
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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DEAR friends,
when I was YounG
i was 20
i saw a man in VeNice on a bridge
the man stand
& looked the laguna di Venezia
Torcello Burano San Francesco del Deserto
ISlands
cold winter
in 1970
white hair
cold wind
blew
there was the
time i have glimpsed a poet & this image
sculpted in my
eyes, years later i realized he was Ezra
Pound, photos on
papers recall the image, yes, like othe
r things in the
life of a generation became "ghost" thin
g,
---
yrs
Rinaldo * be a
beetle or better a beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:13:36 -0500
Reply-To: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Best concept
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Barb Wirtz wrote:
Hopefully I'm
caught up on all responses...I would like to point out
that although I
am defending Eliot as a better poet, I really didn't
want to do so at
the expense of Ginsberg...I would rather just present
Eliot in all his
genius, richness, complexity, and skill...and leave it
at that. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. I did enjoy rereading
Ginsberg and
Eliot...so I think whoever posed the question really did a
service...and I
have enjoyed immensely the insights and input by those
participating.
(ummm...is it my
misperception...or were most of you around in the
'60's...living a
beat lifestyle... Sincerely, I'd just like to gauge.
To my delight, it
sounds as if many of you were part of the movement,
even
contributers! If so, what a boon! a celestial cyber site! I really
dropped in
because I'm reading Kerouac....but it seems as if I'll be
reading much much
more than just Kerouac!
Barb
Try the following:
William S.
Burroughs
Allen Ginsberg
Franz Kafka
James Joyce
Charles Plymell
Greg Corso
Gary Snyder
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti
and the greatest
beat of them all
Leonardo da Vinci
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:42:51 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Jo and Jeff 'n S.Clay
In-Reply-To: <33A8480B.5AFA@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Thanks, Jo G
sent me what i believe to be the bulk of todays mail ,
>calling in
the darkness and the beat responds with heart.
I finally
>sent in my
money for the beat l teeshirt, so do you think it will be
>here before s
clay hits town (lawrence) i want to be a cool, old, fat
>and faded
hippy fan. keep on trucking you persons.
>
>patricia
When will S.Clay
be in Lawrence? Is he there for reasons other than
personal visits ?
It's many miles from Madison, but I've taken longer
trips, by land
and see, for reasons less compelling than meeting such an
insightful,
creative artist.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
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Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:27:33 -0400
Reply-To: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
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> Mine looks
that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
a
> cool car?
I have a Saturn... Does that count ?
*grin*
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web:
http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
| "All human beings are
becoming humanoids...
| All over the world, not just in
America.
| We're just getting there faster
| since we're the most advanced
country."
|
| -- From The Movie
"Network"
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|--
PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:45:09 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: missed the 50's
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I am 43. I often regret that I am so young and missed
out on the 50's
and the
beats. Anybody else in that predicament
of feel that way.
Oh well, as
someone once said, somethings gained in living every day.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:04:02 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: blake and all
In-Reply-To: <l03020909afcd37f85127@[206.25.67.106]>
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>mebbe off
topic but since subject of blake/ AG has come around again
>(sorry, very
behind on mail and picking up long ago thread) is anyone
>here aware of
greg brown's beautiful renditions of blake into song? CD is
>titled songs
of innoncence and experience. the chimney sweeper has never
>failed to
bring me to tears. music is beautiful,
has wonderful fiddle
>player (peter
ostroususko) as well as rest of fellows on band.
>highly
recommend it, absolutely soul wrenching interpretations in music of
>the lyrics mc
Marie,
Great take on
Greg Brown. His innocence/experience CD is exceptional, but
on each of his
CDs--and his music is all original with the exception of a
Jimmy Rogers song
I heard him sing--you'll find lyrics--pure poetry-- that
would stand alone
without the music. When Greg's daughter Pieta and my
Charity were
pre-school they were part of our coop daycare center in Iowa
City called
Alice's Bijou. Long gone now, but back then Greg would help
with fund
raising, all the parents worked,and we had full-time day care for
$20.00 a month.
As long as Alices existed it was a must stop for Michael
Harrington
whenever he was in i.c.
I'm drifting.
Back to the poetry of GB. AS far as I'm concerned greg is one
of the best poets
to ever come out of Iowa City--and he didn't spend any
time with the
workshop.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:20:52 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Eliot & Ginsberg
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In response to
the Eliot / Ginsberg discourse:
This is exactly where i'm at. How are
these boys different and why.
First of all, we
have to remember that Eliot is a full generation
earlier
(contemporary of WWI and pre- Holocaust / Bomb / . . . ). The
two writers are
from completely different traditions = Eliot consciously
(unconsciously ?)
broke away from Whitman's prophetic American
democratic
freedom dancing voice, whereas Ginsberg continued it (as did
W.C.Williams).
With regards to Ginsberg's
"Moloch", it is primarily the god to whom
children were
sacrificed to by the Canaanites of the Hebrew Scriptures
and post-WWII boom/commercial/Bomb/urban
grime that is being described:
"Moloch!
Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton
treasuries! blind capitals! demonic
industries! spectral nations!
invincible madhouses! granite cocks!
monstrous bombs!"
- Howl, part II
It is dangerous
to compare the Eliot tradition and Ginsberg tradition as
being polar
opposites. The major difference in my appreciation of these
poets is their
spirit. Eliot returns to Europe (physically as well, as
did Pound), and
Ginsberg emerses himself in Americana, following
Whitman. As well,
an encyclopedia is needed when reading Eliot
but
then, when
reading Ginsberg, much is lost if the reader does not know
Ginsberg's life
story.
For myself as a poet, it is the spirit
which separates the two. Eliot =
back to the old
ways / Ginsberg = into the western front. This is
somewhat
simplistic. It also doesn't help that each writer is so
complex. The
nature of this list tells me that most of you prefer
reading Ginsberg,
I have to agree yet the concept of the
two
traditions as
being polar opposites with fists into each other is
something we have
to get rid of, the two traditions simply unravel side
by side, feeding
off each other.
Joseph Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:31:50 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Paranoia
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has anyone heard
or read something where Burroughs says that the natural
state of one who
knows all is paranoia? something like that. i'd appreciate
it if someone
could send that to me if they have the quote.
thanks,
-Leo
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:54:57 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Paranoia
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> has anyone
heard or read something where Burroughs says that the natura=
l
> state of one
who knows all is paranoia? something like that. i'd apprec=
iate
> it if
someone could send that to me if they have the quote.
> thanks,
>=20
> -Leo
something like:
a psychopath is
someone who knows what's really going on ... i don't
recall the exact
words.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:46:49 -0400
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Comments: To:
GYENIS@AOL.COM
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Attila Gyenis
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-17 06:42:12 EDT, you write:
> Humans are
one of the few animals (if not the only animal) that are aware of
> the fact
that they are going to die.
How do you know
this? How do you support this claim? Can you provide
documentation to
support this claim?
-Mike Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:06:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: heroin and aging
Comments: To:
country@sover.net
In a message
dated 97-06-18 14:24:45 EDT, you write:
<<
whoa there! this thread may be dead, as i am
crushed under tons of email
from a few days away from list, but go down to
any methadone clinic, any
innercity and the idealism will fall away. i
worked for 3 years in a new
haven ct methadone clinic: i counseled i wept and i buried so many
people,
i've been there myself. there is no glory in
it there is no eternal youth
fountain in it. tortured people tortured
bodies. wsb is the exception to
the rule. ok standing down from my soap box
mc
>>
i agree 100% but
was just making observation that many of my idols are very
well preserved
ex-dope addicts. Is this more than
coincidence?
(((((((((((((((((((((NOBODY
KNOWS))))))))))))))))))))))))))
i certainly
wouldn't encourage anyone to try to find out.
-------------------------------maya("dope
is for dope-heads")
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:18:43 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In-Reply-To: <33A87369.2FB0@buchenroth.com>
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>Attila Gyenis
wrote:
>>
>> In a
message dated 97-06-17 06:42:12 EDT, you write:
>
>> Humans
are one of the few animals (if not the only animal) that are aware=
of
>> the fact
that they are going to die.
>
>How do you
know this? How do you support this claim? Can you provide
>documentation
to support this claim?
>
>-Mike
Buchenroth
The Joy of Fishes
Chang Tzu and Hui
Tzu
Were crossing Hao
River
By the Dam.
Chuang said:
"See how free
The fishes leap and dart:
That is their happiness."
Hui replied:
"Since you are not a fish
How do you know
What makes fishes happy?"
Chuang said:
"Since you are not I
How can you possibly know
That I do not know
What makes fishes happy?"
Hui argued:
"If I, not being you,
Cannot know what you know
It follows that you
Not being a fish
Cannot know what they know."
Chuang said:
"Wait a
minute!
Let us get back
To the original
question.
What you asked me
was
'How do you know
What makes fishes
happy'.
=46rom the terms
of your question
You evidently
know I know
What makes fish
happy.
"I know the
joy of fishes
In the river
Through my own
joy, as I go walking
Along the same
river."
--Chuang Tzu,
trans. Thomas Merton
Leo Jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:26:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: story by a 17 year old girl
maya gorton
INSERT TITLE
HERE
He awoke to the buzz-buzz-THUMP,
buzz-buzz-THUMP of a fly hurling itself
persistently
against the windowpane. He remained
immobile for a moment, eyes
still closed, savoring
the last fading traces of unconsciousness.
Slowly, he
grew aware that
the fly was not a product of his dreamy brain, but was
instead a part of
some other, more distant reality. He
blinked his way into
consciousness. His eyes began to focus, and he soon realized
that he
belonged to the
same world as the fly.
Sitting up, he looked around at this
strange but familiar world. A flood of
glowing
yellowness was exploding in through the window and made everything in
his cluttered
room drip with sunlight. It came from
the same place towards
which the
reckless fly was directing its futile attempts to escape.
The sound of the fly's small body
hitting the unyielding glass made him
cringe. He stood up, and, in an act of true mercy, he
opened the window.
The fly buzzed off happily into the morning
brightness.
He knew he was in a good mood that
morning, because, ordinarily, he wouldn't
have gotten up to
open the window. Instead, he would have
stayed in bed,
letting himself
become increasingly annoyed at the fly, letting himself
become more and
more irritated with it, until he was actually bursting with
aggression
towards it, and only then would he have stood up and furiously
smacked it, with
a shoe, or perhaps even with his bare hand.
He would smack
it just softly
enough so that the window wouldn't break, but just hard enough
so that the fly
would be reduced to a flat oozing jumble of legs and wings
against the
glass. "Stupid insect!", he
would mutter.
But today he didn't feel the need for
this. It was Sunday, after all.
Through the open window, the air itself had
that lazy Sunday smell of peace
and
contentment. This was the one day he
could bask in the luxury of
idleness, and he
reveled at the prospect of doing absolutely nothing for an
entire day.
From the armchair by the window, he
could observe the street below. He
often sat there
in the morning with a mugful of coffee, watching the people
on the block
acting out their daily routines. They
did the same things over
and over, every
day with a barely noticeable variation; it was as if they
were rehearsing
for a play, or a movie, or perhaps something else, something
greater that they
didn't quite understand.
This morning was different, though, and
he had almost forgotten why until he
saw them
coming. Groups of them, in their prim
and proper clothes, swarmed
towards the
church like flies towards a bleeding carcass.
He was amazed at
the number of
people who had chosen to sacrifice such a delicious morning for
such a strange
purpose.
After a while, they were all
inside. He pictured them in the gloomy
stone
building, row
upon row of identical upturned faces, clutching identical books
in their
hands. Something within him shuddered as
he contemplated this. He
felt that there
were souls behind the faces that were struggling, struggling
hard but to no
avail to grasp something that was beyond their reach.
They had the promise of beauty and
light and salvation and freedom, but
something kept
them from touching these things. They
were trying as hard as
they could to
break through what prevented them from their destination. But
their efforts
were futile. And yet, these souls still
repeatedly strove with
all their might
for the unreachable.
He sighed. Would someone eventually open the window for
them? Or would they
be smashed in
mid-struggle and never reach what they were striving for at
all?
He went back to bed.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:35:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: existential overdose.....leading to
withdrawal (just felt like
posting it again)
I SPY WITH MY
LITTLE EYE SOMETHING THAT BEGINS WITH BE
IS IT GOOD? IS IT
BAD? DOES IT MAKE YOU SAD OR GLAD?
I don't know, I don't care
it doesn't touch me
(anywhere)
::climbs into
stone sarcophagus, lies down facing upwards. slowly shifts
heavy slab into
place.
::when the lid is
securely in place, it is airtight, and totally dark.
DO YOU FEEL IT IN
YOUR BRAIN? DO YOU FEEL IT IN YOUR VEIN?
i do not feel it here nor there! nor
ANYWHERE!
NOT IN MY BRAIN
NOT IN THE RAIN
ALL IS IN VAIN
I MUST BE INSANE.............
::suddenly,
suffocation::
"For what dreams may
come---"
As a matter of fact, it was one of those
"something horrible is chasing
me and its going
to kill me" dreams. They say these
dreams are the peculiar
affliction of
people who feel guilty about something, like when you're
avoiding a
responsibility.
Anyway, I was
running like a murderer...but from what?
runnrunrunning running running running
simultaneously from and after
something but I
couldn't tell what it was
all I knew was I HAD to catch up with it
or else...
But it kept out of sight. It was just
around the corner, a corner I had
not dared to
round before. The corner kept getting
further and further away,
no matter how
fast I ran-- it was just beyond my reach.
Running, running...
NOTHING'S
HAPPENING
If I could just
see what it was...I HAD to know.
(running)
I ran past the
Point of No Return. I only had one drop
of energy left.
I was running on empty. "This is it", I thought. One drop left. The
final
stretch--after this, turning back is as good as death, I might as well
give it one,
last, final PPUUSSHH....
!!THEN SUDDENLY!!
OH, NO! As soon
as horrified recognition crept in, i tried to look away, but
it was too late.
I was in it,
surrounded by it, blinded, deafened by it.
it was the face
of my mother
her face!
She's crying and
it's my fault..
In a convulsion of horror and fear and
grief, I howled.
My underwater
dream over.
The air I now had to breathe scorched my
lungs.
I felt like I was
inhaling all the dust of the world.
~~~*~~~
For three long days and three long nights
I twisted in agony as forces
inside wrestled
for control. Absolute terror. Every nerve in my body
stretched to the
maximum, a Tug-of-War against myself.
A most cruel and
violent exorcism.
Sleep seemed further away than the sun is
to the Underworld. And the
COLD...
A thousand
winters rushing through me.
All the monsters and demons of Hell
laughed evilly as they watched me
turn into
ice. One cell at a time
chrystallizing. A chain reaction.
I saw my imminent doom as just another
ice-statue in their trophy
gallery, fully
conscious but forever cursed with the inability to
move...another
victory for Doom.
If only I could crawl out of this
too-tight skin...
If I killed myself, it would be another
victory for them.
And my parents'
grief...
Could it be that I still loved? After all?
The Destroyer laughed. "Fool!",
said he, "Haven't you learned yet to
cast off that
perfidious illusion?"
"GO AWAY!", I screamed.
I put my hands
over my ears and began to sing.
Destroyer:
(laughs evilly)
: (disappears in puff of smoke)
Maya, or illusion, fighting for the most
insane idea she could dream of,
which was to
love.
~~~*~~~
On the 4th day I
finally reached Sleep.
On the 5th day, I
awoke: 1.Consciousness
2.Opened my eyes
3.Stood up on my new legs*
*this took a long time. My new legs were
weak, since I was used to
swimming and not
walking. I faltered and was unsteady at
first, but soon got
used to it.
On the 6th day,
the sun warmed me, and I decided it must be Spring.
On the 7th day, I
looked at the world with my new sensory powers, smelled it
heard it felt it,
and I saw that it could be alright, sometimes.
I took a deep
breath, inhaling all the colors, and began to write, paint,
sing, dance,
wildly so that I would never again forget what it means to be
alive.
~~~*~~~
feel free to
delete promptly but comments appreciated
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:46:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the old gun and the odd gun
Patricia:
It's a long way
from the old Rock Chalk Cafe and Grist magazine in Lawrence.
Did you ever notify S. Clay about the early
works you have of his? He was
wracking his
brain when he gave them to you. He started talking about one
girlfriend of his
who was a model at KU who got Pam a job there while I was
working at the
bean factory with the bosses promises of a big wienie in the
sky.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:56:47 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: the old gun and the odd gun
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Patricia:
> It's a long
way from the old Rock Chalk Cafe and Grist magazine in Lawrence.
> Did you ever notify S. Clay about the early
works you have of his? He was
> wracking his
brain when he gave them to you. He started talking about one
> girlfriend
of his who was a model at KU who got Pam a job there while I was
> working at
the bean factory with the bosses promises of a big wienie in the
> sky.
> Charley
patricia wrote
I don't actually
know him (s clay), I admire him tremendously and have
met him several
times but i do not know where he
lives. i got the
pictures as part
of a bad debt, i sell junk, (like furniture and
building parts)
and often will swap and trade things. I believe I
furnished a
bedroom with cheap furniture for those. He signed them years
later. I heard he
was coming to town, but i don't know any exact
information but he might of come and gone. If he hasn't i
might see him
for he knows
people i know. I would be pleased to give them to him as a
gift, if you
think he would enjoy or be able to use them. Other wise i
hoard them as i
do my other trifles. I would be happy to just pop them
in the mail. of
course i don't have his address.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:16:20 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Spirit present
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In response to:
> I am
43. I often regret that I am so young
and missed out on the
> 50's and the
beats. Anybody else in that predicament
of feel that
> way.
> Oh well, as
someone once said, somethings gained in living every
> day.
> --
> Peace,
> Bentz
I am a Montreal
20 year old poet. There are no regrets to having begun
my journey a good
45 years after some of our 'courage-teachers'. The
spirit is the
main thing and is present.
Joseph Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:19:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Last of the Mocassins
James:
WELL, thank you,
man, if I do say so meself, as Neal usta say. I just got
home from the
Interstate again. It compresses in my head for weeks...not like
old Route
66..Hell trip out west and back. Folks can't seem to live the greed
fast enough.
Passing all the filled cattle trucks in Dakota seeing the big
eye of the beast
stare at me through the railings on its way to slaughter and
all the animals
in rode kill around the Great Lakes..too many white cars in
Ohio. Made me have
a nightmare of red Irish setter impalled on Street sign. I
ran for help.
Then its puppy impalled. I never know what to do. I try to save
an animal on the
road and the driver looks at me while hitting it. Signs in
S.D. saying they
depend on animals for live and don't want any animal rights
people around.
They depend on them for capital greed mainly.
Passed Little Big
Horn and the monument for Custer. Wanted $6 to go up on the
hill. I yelled
Custer was a loser and National Monuments belong to the
people. Keep your
$6.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:24:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lom&DrSax
In a message
dated 97-06-18 02:30:17 EDT, you write:
<< >
Levi:
> Well, at least I particularly like my
image of Kerouac punching toward
> epiphany. If just that could be worked in
somewhere I think it's
important.
> It seems someone on the beat-l writing a
paper has zeroed in that word.
> Charley
Hey ... just wanted to give you an
update. I'm still working on
this, along with too many other projects (I'm
always very slow
to finish things, but I *do* eventually
finish.) Just didn't
want you to think I forgot. Talk to you soon ... how's
everything going? >>
Levi has put my
post on Dr. Sax on his site, if anyone is interested.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:24:13 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Wasson
Does anyone know
if mushroom man Gordon Wasson is still alive? Thanks,
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:28:00 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit present
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
> In response
to:
>
> > I am
43. I often regret that I am so young
and missed out on the
> > 50's
and the beats. Anybody else in that
predicament of feel that
> > way.
> > Oh
well, as someone once said, somethings gained in living every
> > day.
> > --
> > Peace,
> > Bentz
>
> I am a
Montreal 20 year old poet. There are no regrets to having begun
> my journey a
good 45 years after some of our 'courage-teachers'. The
> spirit is
the main thing and is present.
>
> Joseph
Neudorfer
>
neudorf@discovland.net
not certain i
understand the purpose of all this BUT
according to my
birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
this Earth.
but time is a
relative thing don't ya know :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:44:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
I agree with the
post about memorizing. Maybe it's a spurious arguement. I
used to memorize
Burma Shave signs and limericks are meant for any dirty
minded half-wit
to repeat. The post about Ginsberg sayin ass? Well Chaucer
was the first
Englishman to write those vulgar things. About G's unedited
spontaneity. Good
advice. Yeats said something about getting it down while
it's hot. How
else wd he get those funny Kerouac oddities "perne in a gyre"?
But even G
wouldn't let a word stay if he saw it differently re-reading it.
And Whitman was
the dirty old man with greatest compassion for anyone, any
religion, even a soldier
who was a Republican! Had the longer wind and
breath, too.
That's why it took Pound, the clarity nut, a long time to accept
him. And Pound
also sd Fucking in the Cantos, long before G.
So don't take
anything verbatum ergo dictum too seriously folks!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:07:42 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: ReBirth Generation
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In response to
Maya's:
> I just
turned 22, have been out of college for 1 year now. But i
> guess my
generation, my friends i mean, are just as beat as beat can
> be. I hope to take what we can learn from the
beats and push it one
> step further
(isn't that the duty of the next generation?) I would
> be
innerested to know about everyone else too.
I have tried to
> guess, but
am often wrong. See
ya----------------maya
I'm with you
Maya, up in Montreal, Kanada (Whitman spelling).
20 years old
McGill University
(History / English)
self-published 2
chapbooks Jan 1996 The Beginning of Something
Sept 1996 Mountain Tasting
(hopefully in Sept of 1997 And Poet
I Hero Be)
-twin brother
(David), both of us megalomaniacal poets spreading the
word
have been performing for 2 years in cafes,
clubs with the Rhythmic
Missionaries, a
jazzoetry ensemble (trumpet, saxophone, bass, violin,
drums, kungas)
-my brother has a
piece titled "ReBirth Generation", that's what we are.
Audiences drool
at us, compare us to beats that's
o.k. don't let it
get to the
head must not define ourselves (others
will always lend a
hand was not Kerouac hesitant and alienated by
critics and
descriptions of
the Beat Generation?)
this is not new, but then again, it is just be, (even the
corporations have
it down, Just Do It Nike)
to be compared to the past is an honour, but
as you mentioned, we must
add our own twist
to the tradition i don't even know if
it's adding .
. . one thing is
for sure, the whole internet thing is new, imagine
anthologies
covering literary generations of the 21st century, no more
correspondence
through the post office but through !email!
-to come back to
our jazzoetry ensemble, only my brother and I don't
play instruments,
and the musicians all perform their poetry as well
it is not a band,
as the words remain supreme, rather it is a
conversation, the
music responding to the words, heightening the
emotions.
Hopefully you will have heard Kenneth Rexroth with jazz
accompaniment, or
Lawrence Ferlinghetti. The point here is that what
I've heard is not
that extraordinary. The poets and musicans separately
are much more
accomplished than any of us, but together they are not
convincing.
Credit must be given to the beats for combining the two art
forms (poetry and
jazz). In this respect, I see us as adding, but it is
only another
level, as dust accumulates.
- RHYTHMIC
MISSIONARIES : look in any thesaurus for rhythm, you will
find beat.
'Missionary' brings out the image of Jesuits in South America
destroying native
traditions, that is the opposite of what we are about.
Combine the two
words and it is the spreading of the vibe, the spreading
of good times,
the rhythm native to all peoples, solidarity in
diversity.
i guess preachiness cannot be avoided Ginsberg was a prophet in the
line of the
Hebrew prophets (there is an element of tongue and cheek
that Ginsberg
admits, but there is also an element of truth)
and so,
up here in
Montreal, the prophet line continues
Joseph Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:50:01 -0400
Reply-To: andrew szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: andrew szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: existential overdose.....leading to
withdrawal (just felt
likeposting it again)
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----------
: From: Maya
Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
: Subject:
existential overdose.....leading to withdrawal (just felt
likeposting it
again)
: Date:
Wednesday, June 18, 1997 8:35 PM
:
: I SPY WITH MY
LITTLE EYE SOMETHING THAT BEGINS WITH BE
:
: IS IT GOOD? IS
IT BAD? DOES IT MAKE YOU SAD OR GLAD?
:
: I don't know, I don't care
: it doesn't touch me (anywhere)
:
: ::climbs into
stone sarcophagus, lies down facing upwards. slowly shifts
: heavy slab into
place.
: ::when the lid
is securely in place, it is airtight, and totally dark.
:
: DO YOU FEEL IT
IN YOUR BRAIN? DO YOU FEEL IT IN YOUR
VEIN?
:
: i do not feel it here nor there! nor
ANYWHERE!
: NOT IN MY BRAIN
: NOT IN THE RAIN
: ALL IS IN VAIN
: I MUST BE
INSANE.............
:
: ::suddenly,
suffocation::
: "For what dreams may
come---"
:
: As a matter of fact, it was one of those
"something horrible is
chasing
: me and its
going to kill me" dreams. They say
these dreams are the
peculiar
: affliction of
people who feel guilty about something, like when you're
: avoiding a
responsibility.
: Anyway, I was
running like a murderer...but from what?
: runnrunrunning running running running
simultaneously from and after
: something but I
couldn't tell what it was
: all I knew was I HAD to catch up with it
: or else...
: But it kept out of sight. It was just
around the corner, a corner I
had
: not dared to
round before. The corner kept getting
further and further
away,
: no matter how
fast I ran-- it was just beyond my reach.
Running,
running...
:
: NOTHING'S
HAPPENING
:
: If I could just
see what it was...I HAD to know.
:
: (running)
:
: I ran past the
Point of No Return. I only had one drop
of energy left.
: I was running on empty. "This is it", I thought. One drop left.
The
: final
stretch--after this, turning back is as good as death, I might as
well
: give it one,
last, final PPUUSSHH....
:
: !!THEN SUDDENLY!!
:
: OH, NO! As soon
as horrified recognition crept in, i tried to look away,
but
: it was too
late.
: I was in it,
surrounded by it, blinded, deafened by it.
:
: it was the face
of my mother
: her face!
: She's crying
and it's my fault..
:
: In a convulsion of horror and fear and
grief, I howled.
: My underwater
dream over.
:
: The air I now had to breathe scorched my
lungs.
: I felt like I
was inhaling all the dust of the world.
:
: ~~~*~~~
:
: For three long days and three long nights
I twisted in agony as
forces
: inside wrestled
for control. Absolute terror. Every nerve in my body
: stretched to
the maximum, a Tug-of-War against myself.
:
: A most cruel
and violent exorcism.
:
: Sleep seemed further away than the sun is
to the Underworld. And
the
: COLD...
: A thousand
winters rushing through me.
:
: All the monsters and demons of Hell
laughed evilly as they watched
me
: turn into
ice. One cell at a time
chrystallizing. A chain reaction.
: I saw my imminent doom as just another
ice-statue in their trophy
: gallery, fully
conscious but forever cursed with the inability to
: move...another
victory for Doom.
: If only I could crawl out of this
too-tight skin...
:
: If I killed myself, it would be another
victory for them.
: And my parents'
grief...
: Could it be that I still loved? After
all?
:
: The Destroyer laughed. "Fool!",
said he, "Haven't you learned yet to
: cast off that
perfidious illusion?"
:
: "GO AWAY!", I screamed.
: I put my hands
over my ears and began to sing.
:
: Destroyer:
(laughs evilly)
: : (disappears in puff of smoke)
:
: Maya, or illusion, fighting for the most
insane idea she could dream
of,
: which was to
love.
:
: ~~~*~~~
:
: On the 4th day
I finally reached Sleep.
: On the 5th day,
I awoke: 1.Consciousness
: 2.Opened my eyes
: 3.Stood up on my new
legs*
:
: *this took a long time. My new legs were
weak, since I was used to
: swimming and
not walking. I faltered and was unsteady
at first, but soon
got
: used to it.
:
: On the 6th day,
the sun warmed me, and I decided it must be Spring.
:
: On the 7th day,
I looked at the world with my new sensory powers, smelled
it
: heard it felt
it, and I saw that it could be alright, sometimes.
:
: I took a deep
breath, inhaling all the colors, and began to write, paint,
: sing, dance,
wildly so that I would never again forget what it means to
be
: alive.
:
: ~~~*~~~
:
If you choose to
enter the cave with professor Twangiri,
turn to
page 229.
If you choose to return to the boat
with Panga,
turn to page 250.
If you choose to go to Arkansas, turn to
the next page.
sorry, i saw my
chance to fit this in with the rememberance of
those damned
"make your own story" books.
oh c'mon,
i *had* to do it.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:11:51 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
In-Reply-To: <33A722BC.51B@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
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Barbara Wirtz
wrote:
>>
>> Diane
Carter wrote:
>> . .
. Is it simply that you
>> > are
a more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
>> >
Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
>> >
poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
>> >
something about that level that bothers you?
>>
> DC
>Yes, I am
obviously more of a traditionalist...and to a degree sound is
>as important
as the images and messages in poetry...otherwise it might
>as well be
prose...a speech. And Ginsberg does
favor techniques used by
>orators
moreso than poets. Also...I don't think
poetry had been "bound"
>or
"enslaved" my sound devices....It is a kind of music where one may
>choose from a
plethora of devices. And honestly,
Ginsberg is lacking in
>that
area. I agree, his imagery and tone are powerful, but he relies
>heavily on
parallelism and cataloging, but he never achieves the cadence
>of
Whitman. Albeit....if cacophony and
anger are to be conveyed, he's
>achieved
it....But I still don't think he's the finest poet of this
>century.
>Respectfully,
>Barb
Ginsberg did take
poetry to another level; it's been said that Howl was the
first real step
forward for American poetry since Leaves of Grass. I
believe he
achieved something unique and new with his poetry. Whether or
not sound devices
"enslaved" poetry is not so important as the fact that
Ginsberg was able
to create great poetry without capitulating to them. He
has helped poets
find their own voice (as William C. Williams helped AG
find his) by
raising his own voice so loudly in his poems. To me, yes sound
is important in
poetry, but ginsberg achieves beauty that Eliot
and other
poets who
followed more traditional forms never attained. When from the
dirty ashes of
the grief, pain, honesty, and madness of Kaddish come the
lines:
Myself, anyhow,
maybe as old as the universe--and I guess that dies with
us--enough to cancel all that
comes--What came is gone forever
every time--
Thats good! That
leaves it open for no regret--no fear radiators, lacklove,
torture even toothache in the end--
Though while it
comes it is a lion that eats the soul--and the lamb, the sou=
l,
in us, alas, offering itself in sacrifice
to change's fierce
hunger--hair
and teeth--and the roar of bonepain,
skull bare, break rib, rot-skin
braintricked Implacability.
Ai! ai! we do
worse! We are in a fix! And you're out, Death let you out,
Death had the mercy, you're done with
your century, done with
God, done with the path thru it-- Done
with yourself at last--Pure
--Back to the Babe dark before your
Father, before us all--before the
world--
There, rest. No
more suffering for you. I know where you've gone, it's good.
I will sometimes
become tearful when i read this aloud. The sound of this
poetry is
Ginsberg reading it, yourself reading it, not the intricacies of
rhyme or the
placement of syllables, but the pure experience of the beauty
of what the
author has done. One can feel the man writing this: at once,
being absorbed by
the madness of his mother and somehow coming through the
other side
alright, absorbing it in himself; and this relates to ginsberg's
capacity for compassion,
and the essence of the Beats, that giving of
oneself to life
and allowing the beauty and art to come from within the
experience of
life. So was the art of the beats, in my opinion.
I could never see myself trading Howl
or Kaddish for Ode On a
Grecian Urn by
Keats, but luckily, the world gets to have all three and
take from them
all and perhaps find themselves and their own voice in each.
But in the end,
whether in pursuance of truth or of
beauty the poet finds
one within the
other. Dickinson wrote about herself and another buried in
the grave. She
says "I died for beauty" and he says "I died for truth".
They are one, and
the companions talk to eachother through the walls until
moss grows over
their lips.
To me, Ginsberg's formal style, whether
poetic or oratory, is as
powerful and
beautiful as the lyric of any other poet. He elevates man in
the world; his
sound device is that of life!
-leo jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:07:30 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Spirit present
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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RACE --- wrote:
>
neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> >
> > In
response to:
> >
> > > I
am 43. I often regret that I am so young
and missed out on the
> > >
50's and the beats. Anybody else in that
predicament of feel that
>
> > >
way.
> > > Oh
well, as someone once said, somethings gained in living every
> > >
day.
> > > --
> > >
Peace,
> > >
Bentz
> >
> > I am a
Montreal 20 year old poet. There are no regrets to having
> begun
> > my
journey a good 45 years after some of our 'courage-teachers'. The
>
> > spirit
is the main thing and is present.
> >
> > Joseph
Neudorfer
> >
neudorf@discovland.net
>
> not certain
i understand the purpose of all this BUT
>
> according to
my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
> this Earth.
> but time is
a relative thing don't ya know :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
Sure there is a
point to it, but if I told you, it would lose its
point. Sometimes, I wish I was older than 43, but I
hardly ever wish I
was younger. So, why does our culture want to be so
young. I don't get
it, that's for
sure.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:22:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: heroin and aging
Well I could use
some in my old age to help me down from the soapbox.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:27:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: my cat ate my homework
Likely story. Is
that the cat that peered at me while I slept with one eye
open. Reminds me
of Old Joe Turner singing :like a one-eyed cat sleeping in a
seafood
store."
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:30:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: limited vision
In a message
dated 97-06-18 17:03:30 EDT, you write:
<< What I take issue with is the fact that
some of the people who make up society and
eventually history have a
limited vision of what is possible. >>
Diane:
Sounds like a
description of Allen. Everything always had to be his way in
the boy's club.
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:27:45 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: my cat ate my homework
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Likely
story. Is that the cat that peered at me while I slept with one eye
> open.
Reminds me of Old Joe Turner singing :like a one-eyed cat sleeping in a
> seafood
store."
> C. Plymell
the cat came near
me once and i let out a snore that shook the room and
knocked the cat
across the room and it ran from me like i was a tornado
-- of course, i
was asleep so this could be all made up.
the attractive
feature of the Beat Hotel that gets little mention is the
private
"forest of arden" outside the bedroom window.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:32:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: that old conciousness again
In a message
dated 97-06-18 17:03:30 EDT, you write:
<< What I take issue with is the fact that
some of the people who make up society and
eventually history have a
limited vision of what is possible. >>
Diane:
Sounds like a
description of Allen.
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:32:27 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Best concept
In a message
dated 97-06-18 17:34:59 EDT, you write:
<< Do try
Gary Snyder's Turtle Island
(as well as his others) since you're
interested in poetry.
>>
We stopped and
saved a turtle from getting mashed on the road. I hope Gary
Snyder does the
same.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:39:33 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Cool cars
In a message
dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
<< Mine
looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
a
cool car? >>
I had a cool '53
Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
I spit Oxybiotic
on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
that Billy Batman
gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
had was a '66
Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
cassette with the
original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
that's cool
though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:40:56 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cool cars
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
> a
> cool car? >>
> I had a cool
'53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
> I spit
Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
> that Billy
Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
> had was a '66
Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
> cassette
with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
> that's cool
though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
> Charles
Plymell
didn't you have a
cool-car here in Salina back in '49????
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:54:37 -0500
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pretty good law
& order tonight. now that basketball
season is over i
can catch
them. was it a re-run?
david
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:55:57 -0500
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> pretty good
law & order tonight. now that
basketball season is over i
> can catch
them. was it a re-run?
>
> david
sorry about that
one - hit the wrong button in the address book --
imagine that!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:32:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Best concept
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-06-18 17:34:59 EDT, you write:
>
> << Do
try Gary Snyder's Turtle Island
> (as well as his others) since you're
interested in poetry.
> >>
> We stopped
and saved a turtle from getting mashed on the road. I hope
> Gary
> Snyder does
the same.
> C. Plymell
Charles:
My wife tells me
that the other day, she stopped the car save a turtle
from
traffic. My 12 year old son got out to
help, but he was getting
"scratched"
by the claws and kept putting the turtle down.
My 6 year
old daughter got
out and picked it up and placed it on the safe water
side of the
road. She says she is going to be a vet,
and I believe
her. Dogs and cats both like her. But, she also wants to be a gymnast
and a
ballerina. I think she will have a busy
life. And she has a
certain bohemian
look and style about her. My 8 year old
daughter is as
preppy as her
mother. It is so strange the way they
seem to have been
here before.
Last year when he
was 11, Richard was a host for one hour on a local
radio station. I
thought he would freeze up. He turned it
on. People
were still
calling for him when we drove away. But
what was curious to
me was this:
He read a bit
about strange SC laws. One is a law that
makes it illegal
to carry a gun to
church. He ad libbed, "What is
someone going to do,
shoot the
priest?" We are not Catholic, and
as far as I can remember
have never even
taken him to an Episcopal service. We do
not call our
pastor a priest
in the United Methodist Church. So, why
did he say
priest instead of
preacher. I think that in another life
he was a
Catholic. I don't know if it matters. But, has anyone else noticed how
children from the
same parents seem to have different parents and even
different
"lives". If you have watched,
it will convince you that we
are reincarnated.
When he was 3,
Richard told me that we live in a desert and that Jesus
brings us
water. My wife just said he was
weird. I think maybe he was
an Essene priest.
Oh well.
Later,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:37:32 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: t.v.
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RACE --- wrote:
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > pretty
good law & order tonight. now that
basketball season is over
> i
> > can
catch them. was it a re-run?
> >
> > david
>
> sorry about
that one - hit the wrong button in the address book --
> imagine
that!
>
> dbr
David:
Well, it doesn't
matter, it actually fits in better here than on the
Celtic list. What does it have to do with the draft. Anyway, did you
register for the
draft when you turned 18. I think I did,
but I never
got an invitation
to even the Portsmith Camp. The Celtics
never gave me
a try out
either. Maybe I registered for the wrong
draft? This world
is so
confusing. Don't ever take it literally,
but if you don't you'll
go insane.
Peace, maybe,
maybe not,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:09:55 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
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From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker
speaks)
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At 12:09 PM
6/18/97 -0700, Diane Carter wrote:
>
> I am not
trying to diminish the work of Eliot or importance. I
> also don't
think that when you speak of Eliot and Ginsberg it is as
> simple as
saying that they both energized poetry in different ways. I
> don't see
the historical progression of poetry as a line where each
> generation
improves, so to speak, on the next but more of a circle, here
> all poets,
consciously or unconsciously contribute their uniqueness to
> the concerns
of poetry as a whole, which is ultimately the concern of
> humanness.
I don't buy the
improvement/evolution/progression model either.
Your
circle metaphor
works fine for me--especially its focus on unconscious as
well as conscious
influence.
As for the
"concerns of poetry as a whole" pointing to a concern for
"humanness,"
well, I would say that this *might* be an apt description of
my favorite poets
. . . maybe yours, too, since we've met up here on
BEAT-L. Then again, I'm not so sure that Western
humanism is what Ginsberg
is most moved
by. I would say he's most interested in
re-defining what it
means to be
human. But that's for another discussion
(a good one, I'm sure).
> As you
wrote, in another post "Eliot decries what he calls
> Blake's
formlessness." I see Blake as ultimately a great model from
>which
> grew
Ginsberg's vision of Molach.
You'd love
Ginsberg's *Your Reason & Blake's System*, a short book
published by
Hanumen (I think Water Row has this). Ginsberg
knew his
Blake--and knew
how to adapt Blake (Urizen) to his own ends (Moloch). You
might also be
interested in some of the Blake material in *The Visionary
Poetics of Allen
Ginsberg* (by Paul Portuges, from Ross-Erikson Press--out
of print now). I also work with Blake's influence on
Ginsberg in a couple
chapters of my
dissertation on poetic prophecy. And the
Eliot quote on
Blake: compare Eliot here to Harold Bloom's stubborn
and un-energetic
reading of
*Kaddish*, reprinted in Bloom's *The Ringers in the Tower*. The
Eliot and Bloom
essays are fine examples of the kinds of blinders that
prevent cultural
guardians from seeing the limitations of their own systems.
>I don't see
Ginsberg as being
> influenced
to any great degree by Eliot. Any
scholars of Ginsberg out
> there, speak
up if I am wrong here.
Wrong? Not necessarily (in my opinion, as a
twentieth-century poetry
scholar who loves
Ginsberg and Eliot). Check out the
unsent letter
Ginsberg wrote
(with Carl Solomon) to Eliot from the Columbia Psychiatric
Institute (p.
143-44 of *Howl* facsimile edition), a letter written when
U.S. English
Departments were dominated by Eliot-inspired standards of
control, irony,
wit, and decorum. (A domination, as I
argued in a previous
post, that arose
from critics who seemed to forget Eliot's experimental
qualities--critics
who listened more to the prescriptions of Eliot's
criticism than to
the experimental nature of the early poetry itself). In
the letter to
Eliot, Ginsberg & Solomon declare that they "know exactly
where you stand
on the question of the existence of your great mind," and
close with a
royal "we" that plays Eliot's institutional authority for the
fool: "We take our leave by asking us to kiss
you goodbye."
I agree with you
that Eliot was not a *direct* influence on Ginsberg.
These attacks on
Eliot are everywhere in Ginsberg, and for good reason: he
was establishing
a literary reputation that looked away from Eliot's
Euro-inflected
voice and toward the American line of Williams and Whitman,
and toward the
prophetic energy and prophetic historical consciousness of
Blake. As you said:
> But the
connection from Whitman to
> Williams to
Ginsberg is much clearer.
Yet I've also
been trying to argue that twentieth-century literary
history--like the
history of any period--is too tangled to simply say
something like:
> Eliot
distances himself from art
> while
Ginsberg puts himself in the middle of it.
In
"Tradition and the Individual Talent" Eliot does talk about
"impersonal"
poetry as a model
of composition. But he also talks about
transforming the
emotion of the
individual poet into an emotion fitting for each individual
poem--a theory of
selfhood that is as much about distance as engagment, I
think. Eliot claimed an impersonality for his poetry
that wasn't always
there, as critics
who have focused on biographical readings of his poetry
have shown.
Eliot was an
influence Ginsberg could not evade, given the historical
conditions of the
era. Even if Ginsberg detested Eliot and
chose never to
read him--not the
case, as the journals show--Ginsberg could not have
helped hearing
the influence of Eliot on the contemporaries around him.
Eliot was too
dominant not to be an influence. Think
of this 1954 letter
from Kerouac to
Ginsberg (quoted in Schumacher's biography (p. 194) and
probably in other
sources): "For your beginning
studies of Buddhism, you
must listen to me
carefully and implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching
you relativity or
Eliot teaching the Formulas of Objective Correlation on a
blackboard in
Princeton." Now there's quite a
smirking conflation of
representative
teachers and influences--Buddha, Einstein, and Eliot. I'm
reminded of
Burroughs's remark on JK conflating Buddha and the Pope. And
I'm reminded of
Ginsberg and Solomon's sarcastic royal "we." Think also of
"Footnote to
Howl," line 115: "Everything
is holy! everybody's holy!
everywhere is
holy! everyday is in eternity!"
This does not sound like it
could come from
Eliot's elitism and religious orthodoxy.
Yet in the
facisimile
edition, Ginsberg cites Blake (from "Auguries of Innocence") and
Eliot (a line
from "Burnt Norton" that also appears in Ginsberg's poem
"Journal
Night Thoughts") as influences for the line. And then look at
Ginsberg's Eliot
dreams in his published journals. In
these dreams he is
as interested in
winning Eliot's approval as he is ashamed of this interest.
>I can see why
people are moved by
> lines of
Eliot, and why they are captivated by the metaphysical and
> symbolic
implications of his poetry. Yet I see
Eliot as being removed
>by
> a layer of
something from his own verse. He does
not write to America
> about
America or about individual experience in a way that even in the
> way that
even Whitman did. He writes as if there is a shroud between
> himself and
his words, and I think that shroud is the formalness he
> thought
critical to a work of art.
I agree, to an
extent . . . although I think Eliot accomplishes quite a bit
with this
strategy of impersonality and self-removal . . . just as Ginsberg
accomplishes
quite a bit with his emphasis on strategies of naked selfhood.
Eliot doesn't want to write as an American or
to America. The "shroud" of
"formalness"
you mention--a nice description, I think--is part of his
theory of the
"objective correlative" . . . part of what JK claims,
sarcastically, in
the 1954 letter is a teaching lineage comparable to
Buddha and
Einstein.
> For someone writing in
> American
today, I see Ginsberg as a much better model than Eliot.
Hard to say, for
me. It depends on what that person wants
to say, and how
s/he wants to say
it. As a writer, I try to take a bit
from everyone I
read.
BTW, thanks for
starting this great thread, going way back to your readings
in *Allen
Verbatim* (and, as you can guess from my spewing page references
& citations,
the thread overlaps some of my own research & writing
interests).
Tony
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I think of
people's faces and stay away from coffee.
I listen
to my radio and I
go to bed early too. There's nothing
like
sleep to make you
feel good the next day. And I also eat
good.
When I feel tense
and nervous in the morning I go to Ruby's and
have a good
breakfast. The food gives me the energy
to think more
positive
thoughts."
--Henry Turner
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:17:01 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
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Bill Philibin
wrote:
But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
> a
> > cool
car?
Look at the
pictures of Plymell who has definitely owned and sold to
cheap some very
cool cars.
I don't know if I
myself count as a poetic Geek, but my coolest wheels
have been a
couple of Saab 96's, a wonderfully clean 1950 Ford pickup
with a great
flathead straight 6, one of the original
RX-7's, and a
wonderful 5 liter
Mustang which kicked serious butt.
Nothing wrong with
cool cars. Best current wheels (but not running) a 1958
Vespa 150.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:20:08 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
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From: Patricia Elliott
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Bill
Philibin wrote:
>
> But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
> > a
> > >
cool car?
>
> Look at the
pictures of Plymell who has definitely owned and sold to
> cheap some
very cool cars.
>
> I don't know
if I myself count as a poetic Geek, but my coolest wheels
> have been a
couple of Saab 96's, a wonderfully clean 1950 Ford pickup
> with a great
flathead straight 6, one of the original
RX-7's, and a
> wonderful 5
liter Mustang which kicked serious butt.
Nothing wrong with
> cool
cars. Best current wheels (but not
running) a 1958 Vespa 150.
>
> J Stauffer
my best was a 63
white ford pickup called jennie, seat upholstered in my
childhood drapes,
great roses with crawling leaves, p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:16:46 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
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>=20
> Barbara
Wirtz wrote:
>=20
> >Yes, I
am obviously more of a traditionalist...and to a degree sound i=
s
> >as
important as the images and messages in poetry...otherwise it might
> >as well
be prose...a speech. And Ginsberg does
favor techniques used =
by
> >orators
moreso than poets. Also...I don't think
poetry had been "boun=
d"
> >or
"enslaved" my sound devices....It is a kind of music where one may
> >choose
from a plethora of devices. And
honestly, Ginsberg is lacking =
in
> >that
area. I agree, his imagery and tone are powerful, but he relies
> >heavily
on parallelism and cataloging, but he never achieves the caden=
ce
> >of
Whitman. Albeit....if cacophony and
anger are to be conveyed, he's
> >achieved
it....But I still don't think he's the finest poet of this
> >century.
>
>Respectfully,
> >Barb
>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
> Ginsberg did
take poetry to another level; it's been said that Howl was=
the
> first real
step forward for American poetry since Leaves of Grass. I
> believe he
achieved something unique and new with his poetry. Whether o=
r
> not sound
devices "enslaved" poetry is not so important as the fact tha=
t
> Ginsberg was
able to create great poetry without capitulating to them. =
He
> has helped
poets find their own voice (as William C. Williams helped AG
> find his) by
raising his own voice so loudly in his poems. To me, yes s=
ound
> is important
in poetry, but ginsberg achieves beauty that Eliot and ot=
her
> poets who
followed more traditional forms never attained. When from the
> dirty ashes
of the grief, pain, honesty, and madness of Kaddish come th=
e
> lines:
>=20
> Myself,
anyhow, maybe as old as the universe--and I guess that dies wit=
h
> us--enough to cancel all that
comes--What came is gone forever
> every time--
> Thats good!
That leaves it open for no regret--no fear radiators, lackl=
ove,
> torture even toothache in the end--
> Though while
it comes it is a lion that eats the soul--and the lamb, th=
e soul,
> in us, alas, offering itself in
sacrifice to change's fierce
> hunger--hair
> and teeth--and the roar of bonepain,
skull bare, break rib, rot=
-skin
> braintricked Implacability.
> Ai! ai! we
do worse! We are in a fix! And you're out, Death let you out=
,
> Death had the mercy, you're done with
your century, done with
> God, done with the path thru it-- Done
with yourself at last--P=
ure
> --Back to the Babe dark before your
Father, before us all--befo=
re the
> world--
>=20
> There, rest.
No more suffering for you. I know where you've gone, it's =
good.
>=20
> I will
sometimes become tearful when i read this aloud. The sound of th=
is
> poetry is
Ginsberg reading it, yourself reading it, not the intricacies=
of
> rhyme or the
placement of syllables, but the pure experience of the bea=
uty
> of what the
author has done. One can feel the man writing this: at once=
,
> being
absorbed by the madness of his mother and somehow coming through =
the
> other side
alright, absorbing it in himself; and this relates to ginsbe=
rg's
> capacity for
compassion, and the essence of the Beats, that giving of
> oneself to
life and allowing the beauty and art to come from within the
> experience
of life. So was the art of the beats, in my opinion.
> I could never see myself trading Howl
or Kaddish for Ode On a
> Grecian Urn
by Keats, but luckily, the world gets to have all three and
> take from
them all and perhaps find themselves and their own voice in e=
ach.
> But in the
end, whether in pursuance of truth or of
beauty the poet fi=
nds
> one within
the other. Dickinson wrote about herself and another buried =
in
> the grave.
She says "I died for beauty" and he says "I died for
truth".
> They are
one, and the companions talk to eachother through the walls un=
til
> moss grows
over their lips.
> To me, Ginsberg's formal style,
whether poetic or oratory, is a=
s
> powerful and
beautiful as the lyric of any other poet. He elevates man =
in
> the world;
his sound device is that of life!
>=20
> -leo jilk
Excellent,
excellent post.
I just want to
add to that something William Carlos Williams wrote as an=20
introduction to
Ginsberg's Empty Mirror, which was 1947-52, even=20
pre-Howl.
"This young
Jewish boy, already not so young any more, has recognized=20
something that
has escaped most of the modern age, he has found that man=20
is lost in the
world of his own head. And that the
rhythms of the past=20
have become like
an old field long left unploughed and fallen into=20
disuse. In fact they are excavating there for a new
industrial plant.
There the new
inferno will soon be under construction.
A new sort of
line, omitting memories of trees and watercourses and=20
clouds and
pleasant glades--as empty of them as Dante Alighieri's Inferno=
=20
is empty of
them--exists today. It is measured in
the passage of time=20
without accent,
monotonous, useless--unless you are drawn to Dante was to=
=20
see the truth, undressed,
and to sway to a beat that is far removed from=20
the beat of
dancing feet but rather finds in the shuffling of human=20
beings in all the
stages of their day, the trip to the bathroom, to the=20
stairs of the
subway, the steps of the office or factory routine the=20
mystical measure
of their passions.
It is indeed a
human pilgrimage, like Geoffrey Chaucer's; poets had=20
better be aware
of it and speak of it--and speak of it in plain terms,=20
such as men will
recognize. In the mystical beat of
newspapers that no=20
one recognizes,
their life is given back to them in plain terms. Not one=
=20
recognizes Dante
there fully deployed. It is not
recondite but plain.
And when the poet
in his writing would scream of the crowd, like=20
Jeremiah, that
there life is beset, what can he do, in the end, but speak=
=20
to them in their
own language, that of the daily press?
And at the same
time, out of his love for them--a poet as Dante was a=20
poet--he must use
his art, as Dante used his art, to please.
He must so=20
disguise his
lines, that his style appears prosaic (so that it shall not=20
offend) to go in
a cloud.
With this, if it
be possible, the hidden sweetness of the poem may alone=20
survive and one
day rouse the sleeping world.
There cannot be
any facile deception about it. The
writing cannot be=20
made to be
"a kind of prose," not prose with a dirty wash of a stale poem=
=20
over it. It must not set out, as poets are taught or
have a tendency to=20
do, to deceive,
to sneak over a poetic way of laying down phrases. It=20
must be prose but
prose among whose words the terror of their truth has=20
been discovered.
Here the terror
of the scene has been laid bare in subtle measures, the=20
pages are warm
with it. The scene they evoke is
terrifying more so than=20
Dante's pages,
the poem is not suspect, the craft is flawless."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:33:54 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit present
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RACE --- wrote:
> not certain
i understand the purpose of all this BUT
>
> according to
my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
> this Earth.
> but time is
a relative thing don't ya know :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
And you are only
as pretty as you feel!
There was no best
time to be alive. Hell I was too late to
be Dick
Powell in the
Thin Man movies with Myrna Loy and way too late to eat
opium with
Coleridge and DeQuincy. Enjoy your epoch
guys. It's all
you've got.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:37:26 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
>
> > not
certain i understand the purpose of all this BUT
> >
> >
according to my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
> > this
Earth.
> > but
time is a relative thing don't ya know :)
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > salina,
Kansas
>
> And you are
only as pretty as you feel!
>
> There was no
best time to be alive. Hell I was too
late to be Dick
> Powell in
the Thin Man movies with Myrna Loy and way too late to eat
> opium with
Coleridge and DeQuincy. Enjoy your epoch
guys. It's all
> you've got.
>
> J Stauffer
i'd have to say i
found my life as Pandur lyric poet and trickster in
Ancient Greece
the most interesting.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:11:59 -0400
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ReBirth Generation
Comments: To:
neudorf@mainserver.discovland.net
In a message
dated 97-06-19 01:43:27 EDT, you write:
<< must not define ourselves (others will
always lend a
hand
was not Kerouac hesitant and alienated by critics and
descriptions of the Beat Generation?)
..........................................................................
- RHYTHMIC MISSIONARIES : >>
Well, sounds like
you've got it goin' on. But while you're
busy defining
yourself as a
poet, don't forget to step down and be a human being sometimes
too.
Are you familiar
with "the Last Poets"? They
read poetry to drums and other
noise.-----------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:26:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
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From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: days of long posts
sorry about all
the long posts lately. I hope i haven't
made everyone's
fingers
delete-happy when they see my name.
>From now on,
call me the queen of brevity. Speaking
of itchy
trigger-fingers,
has anyone read Burroughs' "soft machine"?
(if anyone thinks
that was in poor taste i'm sorry)---------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:52:11 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: t.v.
In a message
dated 97-06-19 02:30:00 EDT, you write:
<<
sorry about that one - hit the wrong button in
the address book --
imagine that!
>>
sorry about all
previous messages. Must have been hitting the wrong button in
the address book
this whole time--imagine that! i grovel
in humiliation and
tremble in
anticipation of your wrath. Flay me!
Flagellate me! Scorn me with
your
Beatness! I will now recede back into my
dark shell of lurkerdom.
"I can see
the color of souls, and yours is white"
"i belong to
her. I've belonged to her and I didn't know it. Goodbye,
daughter. The
curse! the curse!"
"I will pray
every day for you. From my dark well of loneliness i will pray
for you"
===== loops from:
confessions of a knife, the Thrill Kill Kult (which IS a
beat-related
band, thankyouverymuch)
Piece,
-----------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:13:34 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: The FireWalk Saga continues
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Let's see after
shrink comes "Discussing the Bordello" - i think that
was in the first
insomniatic musings post long long ago.
Next comes:
(Eulogy for the
Dead Poetry Professor in all of us) i can't remember if
i put this one on
the list or not.
special prize big
sloppy kiss to anyone who can figure out why the title
of that one was
in parantheses.
November 12th
1992.... typed (Eulogy for the Dead Poetry Professor in
all of us) . ..
not certain why I put the title in parentheses.
that is
probably the most
significant factor in the poem. many
other things I
noticed about the
poem over time. nobody that has read it
seems to have
gotten close to
these. perhaps i=92ll begin to go into
them after after
after typing the
poem sometime. first I need to put on
some music to
type with. for a Eulogy it seems Lou Reed=92s Magic and
Loss is a fairly
good notion. =20
(Eulogy for the
Dead Poetry Professor in all of us) ...=20
Poetry -- -- --
the art of glimpsing into the aleph ...the infinity and
nothingness of
the unconsciousness and tapping into the streams of
consciousness ...
rivers of images ... oceans of ideas ... symbols -
pictures - art
... POETRY ... free associating between unconscious
symbology like in
a dream but your conscious mind is there too .. .
conscious and
unconscious together joined in the poetic instant --
reflexive --
instantaneous -- connections .... of images and ideas.
And it isn=92t
found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but it=92=
s
in life ... it IS
life, being in and out of existence at the same time
the connection of
the images of the=20
you <in time and
space>
with the images
of=20
you <from the self
<<that lies
outside those dimensions>>
>
and in the poetic
instant -- life is real ... not plastic .... And it=92s
about the truth
..... !
=93What is the poetry
about?=94 the worn English professor asks the wild
eyed
freshman. The professor was too worn to
see the fire in the
student=92s
eyes. After years of neglect his poetic
instinct was
tarnished....in
hibernation. he was happy if he got
students to get
beyond the notion
that =93poetry is something that rhymes=94.
But the wild eyed
student glared at the worn professor angry for not
being noticed and
he replied with what he felt was real:
=93Poetry is
about the truth!=94 he exclaimed.
=93You can=92t
say it=92s rational. It doesn=92t follow
the linear reaso=
ning of
philosophical or
scientific thought. Unlike mathematics
poetry is the
belief that
1,7,4,9,8,3,4 is as logical -- or sensible -- a sequence as
1,2,3,4,5,6,7.....=94
The professor
looks into the student=92s eyes into the fire of truth ...
laughs insanely
... and dies of a heartattack.
At least he died
in a poetic instant, a poetic moment, the shock of
reconnecting with
the place where the poetry is -- that space between
time and time
between space -- where art resides, where the truth is
visible outside
this plastic world.....
-- the shock --
it was too much for the old man thought the wild eyed
student. And then he laughed and he laughed and the
other students
stared and they
stared. =20
And the senior
class President asked =93What are you laughing about ? --
you wild eyed boy
!!!=94=20
And the boy said:
=93He answered his own question.=94
The Class
President stared at him.....the rest of the class stared at
him. =20
=93:Don=92t you
get it. He=92s been wanting to know what
poetry=92s
about....He=92s
been asking the same question year after year and he
doesn=92t find a
satisfactory answer ... he doesn=92t find the truth so h=
e
waits in his
office for another semester ... another term ... another
chance to ask THE
QUESTION ... and another term to dismiss their answers
one by one - -
=93
Until I retire to
the study to the office hoping that someone will bring
me the
answer. The waiting. The wait.
That was his life. And finally
somebody has the
guts to answer the question. What is
poetry about?=20
It=92s about the
fucking truth old man. It=92s about
life. It=92s not a=
bout
hiding in your
study year after year while the truth runs wild in the
streets and
hallways. Its about going places....on
your feet ... in
your mind ...
it=92s active.
What is poetry
about? It=92s about seeing infinity and
nothing collapse
into each other
and surviving the vision...the sound...the experience to
share it with
others. And you finally had the nerve to
turn and face
the answer to see
chaos staring back from your bathroom mirror to hear
the laughter of
the abyss rolling like thunder through your ears while
you strain to
listen to Lou Reed talk of friends and death .....
you had the
nerve. ..........and you turned and the streams of
conscious, the
wiring of your mind criss-crossed and you saw:
POETRY,
TRUTH ... the
space between the lies we all live and you were afraid of
the vision .... afraid
to go back and share it and so you did what so
many of them do
.................. you died.
[a brief reminder
to myself to discuss the extreme anguish involved in
the decision to
apply for disability to leave the teaching profession
... the debates
with Eduardo about it ... and the recognition that my
thought leads to
madness and I couldn=92t stand to lead other folks in
that direction
... a part of me definitely died with that decision I
imagine ... back
to the poem]
There are really
only three choices you know. You can
die. You can go
insane. Or you can go back into the cave and help
people to understand
the truth. The first is the easiest. You took the easy root -- easy
route old
man. At least if you went insane you
might be able to cross
reality planes
with the rest of us and help us keep our balance.
But death it
seems like a real cop out - although I can=92t blame anyone
who chooses death
either by suicide or natural causes.
Life can really
wear you down.
=20
So I don=92t
blame you old man for choosing death....And I don=92t blame =
you
for going
nuts. I understand that from where
you=92ve been, your ideas
make just as much
sense as this rational sane society that we find
ourselves trapped
in.
So you choose to
go back to try and share and you=92re sitting at the
table talking to
the student and she=92s not plastic like the rest but
she=92s seen so
little. You wonder if you have the
patience to share all
of this much
longer.
[somewhere I may
have a copy of the article the young student =93wendy?=94
wrote based on
the interview. a big block quotation
from me somewhere
in the
mixture. I remember reading it and
saying =93Did I say that ???=94=
=20
That sounds
pretty good]=20
She asks you
=93What is a radical in our culture today?=94
=93Is there a
place for
radicals?=94.....
And you tell her
that you don=92t like the word =93radical.=94
It=92s th=
em
labeling us. It=92s a label of domination....Just like
insane or mentall=
y
ill. It says you=92re out of the mainstream of
society....And even
though their
river is flowing full of blood not water poison liquids of
culture flowing
through them all gradually forming into the plastic that
surrounds their
lives -- =20
they like their
river.
And since you see
other rivers -- other oceans -- other thoughts and
dreams you are a
threat to the main stream. The
mainstream might not be
the main one
anymore if they see all those other streams all those other
pictures so they
call you a radical. =20
Well what does it
really tell you about me if someone tells you that
=93I=92m a
radical.=94 does it tell you something
like =93I=92m a poet-I=
=92m an
artist-I=92m a
capitalist-a pastor- a doctor-lawyer-dental assistant=94=20
It=92s just labels
trying to define you
Tell you what you are
what you think
Who am I? I am who I am. I stole that last line from somewhere maybe a
children=92s
cartoon character or maybe from God, I don=92t remember but =
I
don=92t think
anybody will mind........
=93What=92s the
place for radicals in our culture?=94
Not much use for
them, it seems. But you need a few now
and then just
to scare people
into not changing anything much.
Rebels. Are rebels
the same as
radicals? Can I be radically
non-rebellious?=20
At least in your
dreams, said the psychiatrist. Just take
four lithium
and call me in
the morning.
And i=92m in the
attic now Nearly moved from my cave and as I look out
over the
Mississippi River into Davenport Iowa I wonder what the people
are thinking in
Davenport and I wonder if this is where Kerouac was when
he realized that
God really is Pooh-Bear and ........
Lou Reed says I
want all of it ... not just some of it .... and I pause,
radically, and wonder
....if I really want all of it, i=92m not even sure
how much of it I
need.......
and somehow in
this attic -- cold air leaking in through the windows it
seems like I have
found it.
What is poetry
about? If you have to ask you just
don=92t get it. And h=
e
shuts the office
door and never returns ...
and the dream of
the wild-eyed boy comes back whenever he slips into the
plastic places
and pushes him back to the place where the poetry is
..... the nexus,
the aleph ....=20
the truth of
infinity and nothing in one poetic moment.
That instant
contains all of it. Explore that one
instant and you will
see it all .....
[ funny that I
picked the CD I was listening to when I wrote this to
listen to when I
retyped it into this missive. when I
turned a page and
saw that it was
one of those shocking criss-crossed visions of something
beyond the beyond
of the beyond that it is useless to even begin to
attempt to
explain here and now or there in eternity or from one to the
other or both
....]
FireWalk Thru
Madness Colletion, Copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:18:10 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: More FireWalk shorties
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Lynnea set some
kind of timer and we had to write fast ... she convinced
me to include
mine in this collection back then.
FireWalk Through
Madness, copyright December 1992, David B. Rhaesa
PICASO=92S
WHISKERS December 1, 1992 (at
Lynnea=92s)
Thelonius Monk
following Xmas carols with the Lettermen as tress get
axed or hatcheted
and trimming wreathes between Picaso=92s whiskers.
Picaso on your
back? or monekey?
Almost caught the
Soft Machine twists and turns like at the laundromat.
Silent Night,
Holy Night, all is calm until the volume is turned up on
William S.
Burroughs reading the Sermon on the Mount in your living room
with background
noises like Grouch Marx singing the Communist Manisfesto
and Richard Nixon
reciting Mein Kampf from memory on the VCR above your
bathroom mirror.
Lenin and Emma
Goldman met in Mel=92s diner on Thanksgiving to talk with
Alice about
opening her own restaraunt specializing in Animal Crackers
in Stockbridge
Massachusetts with proceeds going to the Vietnam Vets
hooked on heroin
in their flashback fatigues. Mel said
she=92d open it b=
y
Xmas and
Thelonious Monk will play Jingle Bells on Halloween Night.
So this is one of
many and many upon many things written in the attic.=20
i=92ll try and tell
more about the magical attic and its ghosts and
raccoons
somewhere along the line.
MILK and HONEY
NIGHTMARE December 1, 1992 (at Lynnea=92s)
Young Picaso,
First Christmas tree branch paws play raquetball with
white rabbit over
turtle soup at Casey=92s in Milan, Italy next to the
Pope=92s Columbus
Day Parade.
In December of
1892 the Boardwalk at Atlantic City turned inside out and
was a stairway to
Atlantis that only I could see from the decades of
bloodshed over
milk and honey, crackers in bed and tulip farmer=92s labor
contracts.
After the war
things settled back to normal in Nantucket but ethnic
strife over
baseball card pricing started a nuclear nightmare in the
German
Shepherd=92s mind. He was named Boxer
and he turned into a
cockroach to
avoid the radiation therapy because he was misdiagnosed and
didn=92t have
liver cancer.
PEEPING ANGEL SEX
FANTASY #3 December 1, 1992 (at
Lynnea=92s)
The kids in girl
and boy land just West of Tangier -- Incredible,
Instinctual for
the mouth to open on the nipple.
Freud would say
it=92s sexual but Nancy Wilson says love me for Christmas
and she grins at
the Christmas kiss - As she sings of Bethelehem and sex
in a stable -
instinctual, incredible - silent stars go by in his mind
at the
fantasy=92s peak and her eyes are closed as she rubs his furry arm.
Dreaming in a
barnyard with Angels Peeping through the curtain at the
intimate
rendevouz.
all for now --
i'm still typing the next one which is the longest in the
whole thing and
perhaps will be skipped altogether. it
is very
important but
just too damn long for most people's eyes.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. does anybody know how you get things
published...i'm clueless.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:26:03 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cool cars
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970618223731_202099211@emout06.mail.aol.com>
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At 10:39 PM
6/18/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>
><< Mine
looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
>a
> cool car?
>>
>I had a cool
'53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
>I spit
Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
>that Billy
Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>had was a '66
Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
>cassette with
the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>that's cool
though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>Charles
Plymell
No one on this list is a geek or a
freak. We're the only normal people in
the world! Call
me stupid....but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:27:03 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Ginsberg & Eliot
I'm not sure that
I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
Ginsberg was that
Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In
fact much of his
poetry is
influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
He was also
influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
mention a
few. If you look at "Gates of
Wrath," I think you'll see
Ginsberg's early
poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
style promoted by
Eliot and the New Critics. But Ginsberg
quickly
rejected that
style. Ginsberg biggest difference from
Eliot is probably
that he wanted to
return poetry to its roots in song. As
he grew older,
he seemed to move
more and more in this direction. Sure,
he was
greatly
influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
William Blake.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:14:28 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
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Bill Gargan
wrote:
>
> I'm not sure
that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
> Ginsberg was
that Ginsberg turned away from Europe.
In fact much of his
> poetry is
influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
> He was also
influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
> mention a
few. If you look at "Gates of
Wrath," I think you'll see
> Ginsberg's
early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
> style
promoted by Eliot and the New Critics.
But Ginsberg quickly
> rejected
that style. Ginsberg biggest difference
from Eliot is probably
> that he
wanted to return poetry to its roots in song.
As he grew older,
> he seemed to
move more and more in this direction.
Sure, he was
> greatly
influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
> William
Blake.
i think that this
makes an INCREDIBLY useful point. To
package a poet
into a neat
bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
to make the poet
less than human. Poets live their life
in time too and
the influences
come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:51:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970618120043.00699954@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
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and all this time
i had a vision of mad, laughing poets mooning the world
from open
windows!
mc
definitely *not*
a rocket scientist
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:51:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: blake and all
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afce165c3c4f@[156.46.45.82]>
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and yes of course
all the rest is pure poetry .. i love his pomes about his
wife, his
children and his wit. in the dark with you, is full of love and
satire. straight
to the heart.
>Marie,
>Great take on
Greg Brown. His innocence/experience CD is exceptional, but
>on each of
his CDs--and his music is all original with the exception of a
>Jimmy Rogers
song I heard him sing--you'll find lyrics--pure poetry-- that
>would stand
alone without the music. When Greg's daughter Pieta and my
>Charity were
pre-school they were part of our coop daycare center in Iowa
>City called
Alice's Bijou. Long gone now, but back then Greg would help
>with fund
raising, all the parents worked,and we had full-time day care for
>$20.00 a
month. As long as Alices existed it was a must stop for Michael
>Harrington
whenever he was in i.c.
>
>I'm drifting.
Back to the poetry of GB. AS far as I'm concerned greg is one
>of the best
poets to ever come out of Iowa City--and he didn't spend any
>time with the
workshop.
>
>j grant
>
>
>
>
> BE ON THE WATCH
>for items
stolen from the Keroauc Collection
> O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
>http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
>
>Academic
& Small Press Authors & publishers
> display books free at
> <http://www.bookzen.com>
> 302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:51:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: michael czarnecki's cool car
In-Reply-To: <33A89C38.1D8@midusa.net>
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hey michael, are
you still subbed as you go on yr travels with little mac
classic in hand?
in my opinion a 'really cool car' is one that has a
tender/angry/authentic
beat or not poet at the wheel. happy trails,
michael, hope you
send us a bit of yr travel adventures along the open road.
mc
>Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>>
>> In a
message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>>
>> <<
Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
>> a
>> cool car? >>
>> I had a
cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
>> I spit
Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
>> that
Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>> had was
a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in
>>it and
>> cassette
with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>> that's
cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>> Charles
Plymell
>
>didn't you
have a cool-car here in Salina back in '49????
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:28:45 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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>
> Bill Gargan
wrote:
> >
> > I'm not
sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
> >
Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of his
> > poetry
is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
> > He was
also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
> > mention
a few. If you look at "Gates of
Wrath," I think you'll see
> >
Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
> > style
promoted by Eliot and the New Critics.
But Ginsberg quickly
> > rejected
that style. Ginsberg biggest difference
from Eliot is probably
> > that he
wanted to return poetry to its roots in song.
As he grew older,
> > he
seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
> > greatly
influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
> > William
Blake.
>
RACE --- wrote:
> i think that
this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point.
To package a poet
> into a neat
bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
> to make the
poet less than human. Poets live their
life in time too and
> the
influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
I am very
interested in studying the Blake/Ginsberg connection more, and
in looking at
some of the writings Tony Trigilio referenced earlier. I
have always seen
Blake when reading Ginsberg but have never read anything
Ginsberg wrote
about Blake.
As far as
"to package a poet into a neat bundle and look at the
influences on the
package seems to make a poet less human,"
I think I
see the
opposite. First of all no poet can be
packaged in a neat bundle,
it just can't be
done, and I give that point to some who think I have
done so with
Eliot. Looking at the influences on a
particular poet,
however, can
actually make that poet come more alive.
It's true
influences come
and go, and we can never understand everything, but the
more we can
understand the more fully the depth of a poet's work can be
realized. My view is that each of us carries within us
the entire
consciousness of
the human race, and while much of that is unconscious,
the more that is
brought to light, gives us a better understanding of
ourselves and
thus our humanness, which is the concern of every poet.
It's true that to
analyze the shit out of something sometimes dimishes
from the initial
truth and beauty of it. That's a thin
line walked by
literary
critics. But on the whole I think
examining how and why writers
wrote certain
things overall enlarges the scope of their work.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:47:15 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker
speaks)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tony Trigilio
wrote:
>(much snipped
to make my response shorter)
>> As for
the "concerns of poetry as a whole" pointing to a concern for
>
"humanness," well, I would say that this *might* be an apt
description
>of
> my favorite
poets . . . maybe yours, too, since we've met up here on
> BEAT-L. Then again, I'm not so sure that Western
humanism is what
>Ginsberg
> is most
moved by. I would say he's most
interested in re-defining what <it
> means to be
human. But that's for another discussion
(a good one, I'm
>sure).
redefining what
it means to be human--that's a discussion I would love to
take up. Feel free to start putting out your ideas,
I'll have more on
that later.
>And the Eliot
quote on
> Blake: compare Eliot here to Harold Bloom's stubborn
and un-energetic
> reading of
*Kaddish*, reprinted in Bloom's *The Ringers in the Tower*. The
> Eliot and
Bloom essays are fine examples of the kinds of blinders that
> prevent
cultural guardians from seeing the limitations of their own
>systems.
I have heard of
Bloom's essay but never read it. Do you
know if it is
part of any
internet site? I have to say I have been
acutely
disappointed in
what I have heard of what Bloom thought of Ginsberg's
poetry, and how
he did not include it in some twentieth century poetry
collection he
edited. Among those I studied with in
college, Bloom was a
god, probably the
most respected literary critic. I'm
sorry to see that
he ended up on
the side of cultural guardians.
Tony, thanks for
all of your contributions to this thread, you have given
me many ideas to
explore on my own.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:06:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Attila Gyenis wrote:
>
>
> I think
religion's concept of heaven (and hell) is a way to have poor people
> accept their
fate instead of fighting for justice.
>
> It's a way
for many people to do what they want, knowing that they have a
> chance to
repent at the end.
>
> It allows
people to not be accountable for their actions here on earth,
> because they
are being graded up in heaven.
>
> And of
course, the real question is whether there really is a heaven. And if
> there isn't,
it it acceptable to say there is a heaven just so that they (the
> church) can
herd the people in a certain direction?
>
> Hypothetical
question: Does a rock have a 'purpose'. Is it a bigger or
> smaller
purpose then a human. Is it a better or worse purpose then a human's.
I don't think
that with the religious conception of heaven, a person can
do anything he
wants eyeing the repentence at the end as a guarantee of
entrance to
heaven. I thought that doing it with
that notion would imply
the
opposite. Saying, for instance, I'm going
to murder this person
today, repent
tomorrow, and then everything will be OK and I'll still go
to heaven was a
distinct no-no. That is not a sincere
repentance. Maybe
I am putting
forth the protestant concept here and the catholic one is
different, I
don't know.
Hypothetical
answer--A rock does have a purpose and it is no greater or
smaller a purpose
than a human one. Also not better or
worse. All things
exist equally in
the moment.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:20:03 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: sunspots
sunspots burning
in your eyes
hope they dont
burn out
or i don't gouge
them inadvertently
which happens
sometimes
to people i love
but don't worry i
don't love you
i love my
typewriter
it never lies
or looks at me
with deceiving eyes
who pretend to
hold
brightness.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:23:39 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Oxybiotic
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 10:39 PM
6/18/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >In a message
dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><<
Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
> >a
> > cool
car? >>
> >I had a
cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
> >I spit
Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
> >that
Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
> >had was
a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
> >cassette
with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
> >that's
cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
> >Charles
Plymell
>
> No one on this list is a geek or a
freak. We're the only normal people
in
> the world!
Call me stupid....but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara
> >
It's all in
"Last of the Mocassins"
"We used to
get what was called Oxy-Biotic which was a brand of nose
drops that would
make the present day methedrine seem mild.
"Oxy-Biotic
will make ypu
neurotic!" (p. 29)
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:30:31 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> >
> > Bill
Gargan wrote:
> > >
> > >
I'm not sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
> > >
Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of his
> > >
poetry is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
> > > He
was also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
> > >
mention a few. If you look at
"Gates of Wrath," I think you'll see
> > >
Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
> > >
style promoted by Eliot and the New Critics.
But Ginsberg quickly
> > >
rejected that style. Ginsberg biggest
difference from Eliot is probably
> > >
that he wanted to return poetry to its roots in song. As he grew older,
> > > he
seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
> > >
greatly influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
> > >
William Blake.
> >
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> > i think
that this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point.
To package a poet
> > into a
neat bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
> > to make
the poet less than human. Poets live
their life in time too and
> > the
influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks :)
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > salina,
Kansas
>
> I am very
interested in studying the Blake/Ginsberg connection more, and
> in looking
at some of the writings Tony Trigilio referenced earlier. I
> have always
seen Blake when reading Ginsberg but have never read anything
> Ginsberg
wrote about Blake.
>
> As far as
"to package a poet into a neat bundle and look at the
> influences
on the package seems to make a poet less human," I think I
> see the
opposite. First of all no poet can be
packaged in a neat bundle,
> it just
can't be done, and I give that point to some who think I have
> done so with
Eliot. Looking at the influences on a
particular poet,
> however, can
actually make that poet come more alive.
It's true
> influences
come and go, and we can never understand everything, but the
> more we can
understand the more fully the depth of a poet's work can be
>
realized. My view is that each of us
carries within us the entire
>
consciousness of the human race, and while much of that is unconscious,
> the more
that is brought to light, gives us a better understanding of
> ourselves
and thus our humanness, which is the concern of every poet.
> It's true
that to analyze the shit out of something sometimes dimishes
> from the
initial truth and beauty of it. That's a
thin line walked by
> literary
critics. But on the whole I think
examining how and why writers
> wrote
certain things overall enlarges the scope of their work.
> DC
my point is that
one's influences change dramatically in a different
lifetime. and the significance of the influence changes
during the
lifetime as
well. someone who is MAJOR in the early
years may become
minor as an
influence in later writings. a
non-literati example, dylan
is incredibly
influenced by Guthrie in the early days.
after Highway
61, the Guthrie
influence is minor and later very very difficult to
catch for the
untrained ear/eye. some folks during
their lifetime take
compleat
flip-flops concerning influences. i was
so turned on the first
time i read
Kerouac. later i thought, blasphemously,
"whatever" he's
just looking out
a car window, now i'm back to gobbling him up like
fancy food. not that i'm a poet mind you.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:34:42 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Attila
Gyenis wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think
religion's concept of heaven (and hell) is a way to have poor people
> > accept
their fate instead of fighting for justice.
> >
> > It's a
way for many people to do what they want, knowing that they have a
> > chance
to repent at the end.
> >
> > It
allows people to not be accountable for their actions here on earth,
> > because
they are being graded up in heaven.
> >
> > And of
course, the real question is whether there really is a heaven. And if
> > there
isn't, it it acceptable to say there is a heaven just so that they
(the
> > church)
can herd the people in a certain direction?
> >
> >
Hypothetical question: Does a rock have a 'purpose'. Is it a bigger or
> > smaller
purpose then a human. Is it a better or worse purpose then a
human's.
>
> I don't
think that with the religious conception of heaven, a person can
> do anything
he wants eyeing the repentence at the end as a guarantee of
> entrance to
heaven. I thought that doing it with
that notion would imply
> the
opposite. Saying, for instance, I'm
going to murder this person
> today,
repent tomorrow, and then everything will be OK and I'll still go
> to heaven
was a distinct no-no. That is not a
sincere repentance. Maybe
> I am putting
forth the protestant concept here and the catholic one is
> different, I
don't know.
>
> Hypothetical
answer--A rock does have a purpose and it is no greater or
> smaller a
purpose than a human one. Also not
better or worse. All things
> exist
equally in the moment.
>
> DC
i have a distinct
memory of connecting with a frog-shaped rock in the
garden at 1012
Marquette in Davenport, Iowa. Not
necessarily talk but
more an affective
link something like "i'm here, life pretty constant, i
see comings and
goings and am invisible to most." i
learned a lot from
that rock about
invisibility.
[post
hallucinogenic period story]
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:43:02 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: sunspots
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> sunspots
burning in your eyes
> hope they
dont burn out
> or i don't
gouge them inadvertently
> which
happens sometimes
> to people i
love
> but don't
worry i don't love you
> i love my
typewriter
> it never
lies
> or looks at
me with deceiving eyes
> who pretend
to hold
> brightness.
i'd like the
brand on that saintly typewriter.
hell - give me
one for Xmas.
if my keyboard
doesn't deceive
than my
fingertips certainly do.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:58:20 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: last words..part 1(actual title:
"Secrets")
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970617125059_-126888412@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Maya,
Your paper reminds me of some of Alice
Walker's ideals.
Particularly the
concepts found in her novel, _Temple of My Familiar_.
Have you ever
read her?
Keep up the creative work; I've enjoyed
and been inspired by
your
contributions for quite some time now.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:48:44 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re:
Best concept
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
... noticed how
> children
from the same parents seem to have different parents and even
> different
"lives". If you have watched,
it will convince you that we
> are
reincarnated.
>
> When he was
3, Richard told me that we live in a desert and that Jesus
> brings us
water.
Mr. Kirby:
In case you
haven't read these books, you would certainly find them
interesting,
perhaps:
Anderson, Ian:
Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation (Charlottesville
Press, VA),
University Press of Virginia, 1974
--Children Who
Remember Their Past Lives (Charlottes Press) University
Press of
Virginia, 1987
Dr. Anderson has
spent most of his adult life interviewing children such
as your son who
describe previous life events. Dr. Anderson, then
documents these
descriptions against this life as much as possible. He
has come closer
to actual documentaiton of reincarnation than any
researcher I have
heard about.
Or a more
Commerically oriented book by:
Whitton, Joel L,
Fisher, Joe: Life Between Life, (New York: Doubleday,
1986).
-Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:59:17 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: t.v.
Comments: To:
Marioka7@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
What's this all
about? I thought the "wrong button" refered only to the
fact that David
sent us a post that he meant to send to another address.
By the way having
just returned from a month's absence from the list I
was absolutely
delighted to find your youth full voice resonating so
brightly in our
midst. You have put some amount of energy, dedication
and passion for
the future of humanity in the work that you posted for
us to consider.
The delete button works well for any of us when
something is too
whatever for our interest.
Not that I agree
with all of your conclusions. I don't think, for
example that
those of us who chose to resist oppression wasted our
lives, or
empowered the oppressors. It may well turn out that all of the
ways that good
people arrive at are needed and useful. I hope that your
posts will
continue to brighten our list.
BTW, in response
to your earlier question, yes I was around in the
sixties. You can
see some earlier posts about that in
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/journals/tabory.htm
Two more cents
about "born too late". While I am glad I was around
things that were
happening then, I am no less happy to be around things
that are
happening today. You have more exciting tomorrows to look
forward to than
yesterdays. As thrilling as those may seem. Disaffection
from the
prevailing bs of the day was and is our quest for better things
to come. I hope
your posts continue.
Leon
Maya Gorton
wrote:
In a message
dated 97-06-19 02:30:00 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> sorry about that one - hit the wrong button
in the address book --
> imagine that!
> >>
>
> sorry about
all previous messages. Must have been hitting the wrong button in
> the address
book this whole time--imagine that! i
grovel in humiliation and
> tremble in
anticipation of your wrath. Flay me!
Flagellate me! Scorn me with
> your
Beatness! I will now recede back into my
dark shell of lurkerdom.
>
> "I can
see the color of souls, and yours is white"
> "i
belong to her. I've belonged to her and I didn't know it. Goodbye,
> daughter.
The curse! the curse!"
> "I will
pray every day for you. From my dark well of loneliness i will pray
> for
you"
> ===== loops
from: confessions of a knife, the Thrill Kill Kult (which IS a
> beat-related
band, thankyouverymuch)
>
> Piece,
-----------------maya
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:59:22 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Cool cars
Comments: To:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 10:39 PM
6/18/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >In a
message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><<
Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
> >a
> > cool
car? >>
> >I had a
cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
> >I spit
Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
> >that
Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
> >had was
a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
> >cassette
with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
> >that's
cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
> >Charles
Plymell
>
> No one on this list is a geek or a
freak. We're the only normal people
in
> the world!
Call me stupid....but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara
> >
"Oxy-Biotic
will make you neurotic.... "
see....
Plymell, Charles:
Last of the Moccasins, (Albuquerque, NM, Mother Road
Publications,
1996), pp 29-31.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:31:37 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Last Word (secrets) continued
In a message
dated 97-06-17 13:04:37 EDT, Marioka7@AOL.COM (Maya Gorton)
writes:
<< DO YOU
FEEL IT IN YOUR BRAIN? DO YOU FEEL IT IN
YOUR VEIN?
i do not feel it here nor there! nor
ANYWHERE!
NOT IN MY BRAIN
NOT IN THE RAIN
ALL IS IN VAIN
I MUST BE
INSANE.............
>>
I am pretty sure
that this is Dr. Seuss, so I must assume that Dr. Seuss is a
Beat.
I do not like
green eggs and ham,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:37:51 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: reincarnation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I went to my
newsreader. There is a new newsgroup,
alt.paranormal.reincarnation. I figured, there are on accidents, I
subscribed.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:32:09 -0400
Reply-To: Ted Harms
<tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
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From: Ted Harms <tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: tracking Ginsberg quote
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Can any of
Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fragment
for me. All I can remember about it is something
about 'Chinamen and
their secret
heroes'.
Thanks in
advance.
Of course, I'm
going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't from
AG...
Ted Harms Library, Univ. of
Waterloo
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761
"...it's
elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:07:41 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: The cows know
>Humans are
one of the few animals (if not the only animal) that are aware of
>the fact that
they are going to die. They have this knowledge from a very
>Attila
Attila, haven't you heard the Meat is Murder
album by a British band called
The Smiths?
The album begins with the sound of cows being herded into an
Abattoir.
The cows really sound like they are aware and know they're going to
die!
I'm not nitpicking at you Attila and this is
not a stab at meat-eaters - if it
were I'd be stabbing myself!
Joe
NewCastleUnitedKingdom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:58:56 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: The
Poet as Human
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In response to
Maya's:
> Well, sounds
like you've got it goin' on. But while
you're busy
> defining
yourself as a poet, don't forget to step down and be a
> human being
sometimes too.
> Are you
familiar with "the Last Poets"?
They read poetry to drums
> and other
noise.-----------------maya
To be human is to
be poet. Ralph Waldo Emerson writes in his essay, 'The
Poet':
"[T]he poet's habit of
living should be set on a key so low
that the common influences should
delight him. His cheerfulness
should be the gift of the sunlight; the
air should suffice for his
inspiration, and he should be tipsy
with water . . .
"Poets are thus liberating
gods."
This isn't much
different from Kerouac's "List of Essentials":
#2.
Submissive to everything, open, listening
#4.
Be in love with yr life
#29. You're a Genius all the time
[or, what you write is
pure genius]
My relationship with "The Last
Poets" is mostly musical. I don't learn
from them as
poets. The artists for me are those who move me to write,
who demand of
myself to add to what has been created. #29 must always be
kept in mind, as
well, it must be kept in check.
Joseph Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:58:20 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Burroughs at UCLA tribute for Ginsberg?
There is a
tribute scheduled for Saturday, 21 June at UCLA for Allen
Ginsberg. William
S. Burroughs is listed among those scheduled to perform.
This is not true.
Mr. Burroughs will NOT be there, nor did he ever promise to
be there,
according to his personal secretary, James Grauerholz.
Please distribute
this information as widely as possible; forward this letter
freely. It's
important that people not believe they're going to hear this
legend speak
about AG, only to be disappointed when they get there.
Diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:10:00 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs at UCLA tribute for
Ginsberg?
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Diane De Rooy
wrote:
>
> There is a
tribute scheduled for Saturday, 21 June at UCLA for Allen
> Ginsberg.
William S. Burroughs is listed among those scheduled to perform.
>
> This is not
true. Mr. Burroughs will NOT be there, nor did he ever promise to
> be there,
according to his personal secretary, James Grauerholz.
>
> Please distribute
this information as widely as possible; forward this letter
> freely. It's
important that people not believe they're going to hear this
> legend speak
about AG, only to be disappointed when they get there.
>
> Diane
and it's too late
to cash in the plane tickets ... damn luck.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:47:51 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-19 04:19:14 EDT, you write:
<< >
Humans are one of the few animals (if not the only animal) that are
aware of
> the fact that they are going to die.
How do you know this? How do you support this
claim? Can you provide
documentation to support this claim? (Michael L. Buchenroth)>>
Yes, it was in my
copy of INTRODUCTION TO LIFE MANUAL, page 73. It was in the
chapter on how to
grow up to be a normal maladjusted adult with typical
neuroses,
cynicism, and general discontent.
My feeling is
that, for whatever reason, humans have a different level of
consciousness then other animals (just like dogs have a
different level of
consciousness
then worms).
Do you think
worms know at an early age that they are going to die?
I don't know if
dogs do, though I think they understand what death is. I
heard that the
rescue dogs that look for survivors in a bombed out buildings
etc-- that after
a few searches where all they find is dead people, that they
have to set it up
so that they "find" a survivor because otherwise they get
too depressed.
And just because
I do believe that some animals are lower or higher on the
"consciousness
chain", it doesn't mean that the lower animals are not
important.
Well now I have
to go back to read my chapter on "How to tie knots so the
lugguage doesn't
go flying off the roof rack".
enjoy, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:19:29 +0200
Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE
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From: Daniel Brattemark
<danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
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Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> I myself am
a whopping 21, and I am soooooo pissed off about all the stuff
> I missed for
being born so late!!!! Anybody else in the same predicament?
I am 23 and yes I
am pissed, thinking about all that I missed. I'm also
annoyed being
born so early. Imagine what I won't see in the future.
Still I wouldn't
like to see myself in the mirror at the age of 200. I'd
be reeeally ugly.
So all things considered, I'm happy.
-daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:30:21 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: what i'm thinking about right now (stream
of Con-shus-niss)
where the trees
end and the sky begins
my sky my moon
no-one else knows (or do they?)
where you see the
corners in the sad/happy/sad/happy of the river.
my head swells
and bursts, pouring pure love on all the birds.
She always had a
phobia of birds. They looked like dinosaurs to her.
Mesozoic pigeons. The horror of wings flapping and the
screech. Bloody
beaks. Round eyes that held the moon. Cold sharp tongues
I like the paths
you carve in my mind. To travel them,
hoping. To find you
there. And always, we are naked.
Or dead.
i don't want to
wake up. my arms hurt even though they
were amputated long
ago.
yesterday she
cried on my shoulder and i had to change my goddam shirt for
all the mascara.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:40:42 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: what i'm thinking about right now (stream
of Con-shus-niss)
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> where the
trees end and the sky begins
> my sky my
moon no-one else knows (or do they?)
> where you
see the corners in the sad/happy/sad/happy of the river.
huck and jim float one way
waving and
yelling
"Hey"
to
Siddhartha rowing
the
other
and
which
way
will
be
called
upstream
and
which
way
downstream
and
who
will
decide
what
to
name
each
of
the
falling
leaves
that
make
the
robin
cry
and
the
lonesome
die
>
> my head
swells and bursts, pouring pure love on all the birds.
> She always
had a phobia of birds. They looked like dinosaurs to her.
> Mesozoic pigeons. The horror of wings flapping and the screech.
Bloody
> beaks. Round eyes that held the moon. Cold sharp tongues
>
> I like the
paths you carve in my mind. To travel
them, hoping. To find you
> there. And always, we are naked.
> Or dead.
Robin red breast
sings a song of spring
in my ear
while
pecking
out a marching rhythm
thump de de thump
on my ear drum
and the Raven
flies in front
of
two sparrows and a dozen Black Crowes
and
descend on my
waiting heart
and devour it
while
it
still
beats
beats
beats
beats
beats
>
> i don't want
to wake up. my arms hurt even though
they were amputated long
> ago.
along with my brain
>
> yesterday
she cried on my shoulder and i had to change my goddam shirt for
> all the
mascara.
i am filled with
jealousy
i cried
on
my
own
mascara
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:24:23 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: cats
Lena:
Tell Bill to try
not to step on Fletch's tail so maybe he won't jump and
scratch at
strangers so much.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:42:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: best concept
I am finally on
the reading list with Leonardo da Vinci. Hey, Rinaldo can I
come to Rapallo?
We'll make a sculpture of Benny Bufano.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:51:06 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ReBirth Generation
In a message
dated 97-06-19 01:43:27 EDT, you write:
<< Hopefully you will have heard Kenneth Rexroth
with jazz
accompaniment, or Lawrence Ferlinghetti. The
point here is that what
I've heard is not that extraordinary. The poets
and musicans separately
are much more accomplished than any of us, but
together they are not
convincing. >>
Yeah, that's too
bad that Ferlinghetti tried a lot of things that didn't
work. It was kind
of a fad reading to jazz. More difficult than one thinks.
The best I've
heard is Kerouac on the Steve Allen show (who was he with; I
can hear some of
the poetry, but can't recall the musician's name.) The other
poet I thought
had a good jazz ear was Kenneth Patchen.
Paul Bley lives
here in Cherry Valley. We've thought about working together.
I arranged for
him to do a gig with Burroughs years ago. We could probably
pull it off, but
his compositions are privately progressive. It's something,
if it clicks it's
great, but most poets can't tell when it clicks.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:02:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Best concept
Bentz:
Well, bless them.
I think it was Gandhi who drew the parallel of higher
relationship of
humans to how they treat animals. It is kind of risky saving
turtles. I
usually have thick gloves and heavy cardboard (for a scoop). Pam
usually tries to
herd them while I try to direct traffic.
The problem is the
fool drivers try
to concentrate on you instead of what your doing and
sometimes get
detracted and run over the animals.
My daughter works
for the NC Aquarium and she has a group called NEST which
treats sick sea
turtles and camps out on the beach to make sure the baby
turtles go out to
sea. I love to go to the outer banks when I can. When the
sea turtles
recover, she and a friend usually takes them in a kiddies pool to
the coast guard
to take them out to the warm current; or one time down to Sea
World down in FL
who does give them a good home. There
have been lots of
them wash up with
a kind of immune disease.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:13:38 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cool cars
In a message
dated 97-06-19 04:23:16 EDT, you write:
<< didn't
you have a cool-car here in Salina back in '49????
>>
Yeah, 49 Caddy
maroon like Robert Williams drew on the cover of Last of the
Moccasins. Can't
believe how smooth the V8 flathead could run. Was pushing it
to see Eartha
Kitt in New Faces at a drive-in. I missed her in NYC recently.
She now lives
somewhere in upstate, maybe I'll get to see her yet. If I still
had that 49
Caddy, I wouldn't be afraid to park it in her garage.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:16:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a message
dated 97-06-19 04:24:10 EDT, you write:
<< How do
you know this? How do you support this claim? Can you provide
documentation to support this claim?
>>
Elephants go to a
meeting place when they are ready to die. I think it's
because they have
a long memory and sad eyes.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:33:20 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
Cool cars
In a message
dated 97-06-19 07:56:01 EDT, you write:
<< .but
what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara >>
OK Sara, I've
'bout run out of post toasties for tonight only allowed ten.
You can read
about in my Last of the Moccasins. As far as I know it was
peculiar to the
Midwest in the mid 1950s. A lot of jazzheads dispersed from
Kansas City after
Norman Grantz put together Kansas City Jazz at the
Philharmonic
scene. Of course, Charlie Parker was born and lived in Kansas
City, KS and
played down in Wichita, El Dorado, Tulsa and Oklahoma City,
etal. My first
taste of jazz and nose inhalers was from some of those cats
namely Pack Rat
who played a cool bass and cut the cotton out of nose
inhalers to stay
high on. It was an amphetamine or methedrine rush. Oxybiotic
was a liquid form
of nose drops that must of contained a great amount of
amphetamine. It
was put out by Rexall Drugstores, a chain in the Midwest. We
would drink a few
ounces from the bottle usually mixed with orange juice and
stay high for
days and nights, sometimes weeks. I invented the term lounge
lizard because we
would stay after hours and talk all night in an amphetamine
rush. By high I
mean like the scalps tiny pores exuding electric energy. I
have never taken
anything quite as strong since. Of course, many musicians
and especially
the hilly billy singers had fruit jars full of dexidrene which
contain a similar
ingredient and was popular in the 50s. In Mexico we could
get crisscross
benzedrine which I gave to my friend driving down there in the
50s. He talked to
himself for thousands of miles, turned a kind of pale
green, I lay in
the back seat and slept. Neal used to give methedrine pills
when I would take
off on driving binges and as a speed freak that was his
favorite drug
other than pot. As I say I have never had anything as strong as
the Oxybiotic
nose drops and I have never heard of them in other Beat lexica,
as was Benzedrine
and amphetamines so I guess they were limited to that area
and that time.
Even though this was in the 50s I had driven around the
country to hear
Charlie Parker, Hank Williams and Elvis perform, but did not
know of the Beat
generation.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:35:06 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: heroin and aging
Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 08:06 PM
6/18/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-06-18 14:24:45 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> whoa there!
this thread may be dead, as i am crushed under tons of email
> from a few
days away from list, but go down to any methadone clinic, any
> innercity
and the idealism will fall away. i worked for 3 years in a new
> haven ct
methadone clinic: i counseled i wept and
i buried so many people,
> i've been
there myself. there is no glory in it there is no eternal youth
> fountain in
it. tortured people tortured bodies. wsb is the exception to
> the rule. ok
standing down from my soap box
> mc
> >>
>i agree 100%
but was just making observation that many of my idols are very
>well
preserved ex-dope addicts. Is this more
than coincidence?
>(((((((((((((((((((((NOBODY
KNOWS))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>i certainly
wouldn't encourage anyone to try to find out.
>-------------------------------maya("dope
is for dope-heads")
>
>
I think it can be
compared to those who win the lottery.
They're very
lucky indeed to
survive as long as they do.
Greg Elwell elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:48:33 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Author's Note (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On another list,
Ron P Whitehead wrote:
> The Fear And
Loathing Letters, Volume I
>
> THE PROUD
HIGHWAY
> Hunter S.
Thompson
>
> Saga Of A
Desperate Southern Gentleman
> Edited by
Douglas Brinkley
> Foreword by
William J. Kennedy
I've recently
become completely immersed in this book. These letters are as
good as many of
Hunter's fine prose works, and reading them chronologically
serves to
illuminate the years just before and during the time he "makes
it." A
valuable document indeed.
I haven't read
all of the Hunter bios that are out there, but the
introduction to
this book is the first time I've seen it spelled out in
print that
Hunter's shenanigans are almost completely fictitious. Not that
most would
believe some of it, but I've always had trouble discerning where
the line between
his fiction and reality is drawn -- well, yeah, as if there
_were_ any
"objective reality" anyway.
Like Corso says,
"I am 25,"
m
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:09:31 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: A half century of Joyce?
In a message
dated 97-06-19 15:15:10 EDT, you write:
<< I am
just starting to read your work. Have
visited your web site a
number of times and intend to visit it many
more. I am just now sitting
here ready to begin to read an autographed
copy of Last of the Moccasins
that I ordered from Jeffrey. I just got Dr. Sax too, so maybe I can
enter the Moccasins/Dr. Sax discussion at some
point. As far as the
CORNIX thing goes, can someone post as to what
software one needs to
really view it in the way it is meant to be
viewed, and if it is possible
to download it from somewhere. Also. I am curious as to your opinion of
Joyce and did you read him extensively at any
point?
DC
>>
Diane:
Michael
Buchenroth has done all of this for me and is now helping me set up
my own machine to
see the words jump and flash. Without the flash point the
whole experiment
is lost. Pam says it may have something to do with your
browser. Michael
and Stutz were the ones who helped me with the CORNIX flash
that I became
interested in. The other works are in normal type.
The Joyce
question I'm afraid takes me back in time too far. In college he
was the hep canon
so everyone was expected to read him. I hated him cause I
had to read him.
Then saw his genius in little bits. Then damned him and my
wife's relative
Sylvia for publishing him thinking that his influence ruined
American
literature and of course I'm ultra agnostic and don't give a shit
about religions.
The Buddhist way of life or religion comes nearest to my
plane here on
earth. Ginsberg always thought that I was against his Buddhism,
but I was just
against his prosletizing and posing. I
remember when I
introduced him at
Folger's Shakespeare Theater he made the stage people go
through all this
hell to get his pillow right so he could sit his ass on it
properly, etc.
These were all pretensions that gradually wore on me, but I do
agree with
someone's earlier post about Allen using tabloid lines to speak
his histerical
(my word) passions. In an earlier post that when I read with
him an
intellectual audience was more interested in his tabloid poetry but
this is a valid
insight I've learned tonight.
Thanks for buying
the book and please join in on the discussion. I think I
said that at one
point that Kerouac was pounding toward epiphany and now that
word seems over
used a bit. So now maybe I'll have to
think of a different
one.
Allen was also a
born teacher and tried to teach me Kerouac's poetics. He was
also wanted to
control things and that sometimes violated a trust a took for
granted. In later
years he seemed to be listening to "other voices" too much.
And our
friendship reverted to cordiality. I empathized better in later years
with Burroughs
who always had a charming true criminality and
I felt a
certain honesty
was never violated.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:07:03 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: tracking Ginsberg quote
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ted Harms wrote:
>
> Can any of
Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fragment
> for me. All I can remember about it is something
about 'Chinamen and
> their secret
heroes'.
>
> Thanks in
advance.
>
> Of course,
I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't from
> AG...
>
> Ted
Harms Library,
Univ. of Waterloo
>
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca
519.888.4567 x3761
>
"...it's elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
The only thing it
brings to mind for me is two different lines from Howl
that aren't real
close together but if you were listening to the whole
thing read, you
might remember them as part of the whole.
"who jumped
in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse
of winter midlight streetlight smalltown
rain..."
and about 15
verses later
"who went
out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.C.,
secret hero of
these poems..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:18:27 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg
And both these
boys ended up whores of Moloch.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:53:15 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
In-Reply-To: <33A9886D.1447@together.net>
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>>
>> Bill
Gargan wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm
not sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
>> >
Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of hi=
s
>> >
poetry is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets=
=2E
>> > He
was also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
>> >
mention a few. If you look at
"Gates of Wrath," I think you'll see
>> >
Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
>> >
style promoted by Eliot and the New Critics.
But Ginsberg quickly
>> >
rejected that style. Ginsberg biggest
difference from Eliot is probabl=
y
>> >
that he wanted to return poetry to its roots in song. As he grew older=
,
>> > he
seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
>> >
greatly influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
>> >
William Blake.
>>
>
>RACE ---
wrote:
>> i think
that this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point.
To package a poet
>> into a
neat bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
>> to make
the poet less than human. Poets live
their life in time too and
>> the
influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks :)
>>
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
>
>I am very
interested in studying the Blake/Ginsberg connection more, and
>in looking at
some of the writings Tony Trigilio referenced earlier. I
>have always
seen Blake when reading Ginsberg but have never read anything
>Ginsberg
wrote about Blake.
>
>As far as
"to package a poet into a neat bundle and look at the
>influences on
the package seems to make a poet less human," I think I
>see the
opposite. First of all no poet can be
packaged in a neat bundle,
>it just can't
be done, and I give that point to some who think I have
>done so with
Eliot. Looking at the influences on a
particular poet,
>however, can
actually make that poet come more alive.
It's true
>influences
come and go, and we can never understand everything, but the
>more we can
understand the more fully the depth of a poet's work can be
>realized. My view is that each of us carries within us
the entire
>consciousness
of the human race
Reminds me again:
Myself, anyhow,
maybe as old as the universe--and I guess that dies with
us--enough to cancel all that
comes--What came is gone forever
every time-- (ginberg)
--leo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:55:09 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: what i'm thinking about right now
(stream of Con-shus-niss)
In-Reply-To: <33A9C37A.7229@midusa.net>
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>Maya Gorton
wrote:
>>
>> where
the trees end and the sky begins
>> my sky
my moon no-one else knows (or do they?)
>> where
you see the corners in the sad/happy/sad/happy of the river.
>
Here's a little
Tom Petty wisdom:
Where the horizon
ends, the sky begins,
despite the best
intentions.
What else can i
say besides i think TP's kind of a hilbilly rock n' roll
beat. Anyone like
to comment on that morsel?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:59:44 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: tracking Ginsberg quote
In-Reply-To: <33AA1E07.56CD@together.net>
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>Ted Harms
wrote:
>>
>> Can any
of Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fragmen=
t
>> for
me. All I can remember about it is
something about 'Chinamen and
>> their
secret heroes'.
>>
>> Thanks
in advance.
>>
>> Of
course, I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't from
>> AG...
>>
>> Ted
Harms Library,
Univ. of Waterloo
>>
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca
519.888.4567 x3761
>>
"...it's elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
>
>The only
thing it brings to mind for me is two different lines from Howl
>that aren't
real close together but if you were listening to the whole
>thing read,
you might remember them as part of the whole.
>
>"who
jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse
> of winter midlight streetlight smalltown
rain..."
>
>and about 15
verses later
>
>"who
went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.C.,
>secret hero
of these poems..."
>
>DC
There's the line
from America where Ginsberg says something like: the east
is rising against
me; i don't have a chinaman's chance.
'Chinamen ans
their secret heroes' sounds familiar though.
--leo jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:38:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re:
tracking Ginsberg quote
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> >Ted
Harms wrote:
> >>
> >> Can
any of Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fr=
agment
> >> for
me. All I can remember about it is
something about 'Chinamen an=
d
> >>
their secret heroes'.
> >>
> >>
Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> Of
course, I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't fro=
m
> >> AG...
> >>
> >> Ted
Harms Library,
Univ. of Waterloo
> >>
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca
519.888.4567 x3761
> >>
"...it's elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
> >
> >The only
thing it brings to mind for me is two different lines from Ho=
wl
> >that
aren't real close together but if you were listening to the whole
> >thing
read, you might remember them as part of the whole.
> >
>
>"who jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse
> > of winter midlight streetlight smalltown
rain..."
> >
> >and
about 15 verses later
> >
>
>"who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars,
N.=
C.,
> >secret
hero of these poems..."
> >
> >DC
>=20
> There's the
line from America where Ginsberg says something like: the e=
ast
> is rising
against me; i don't have a chinaman's chance.
> 'Chinamen
ans their secret heroes' sounds familiar though.
>=20
> --leo jilk
unconscious
cut-ups of all of the above perhaps.....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s.
Just got back
from teaching salina kansas how to dance to a blues/jazz
band in a
Park. salina kansas were slow
learners. i may never be able
to walk
again. already feeling muscles screaming
that haven't screamed
in 92 years.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:35:47 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> And both
these boys ended up whores of Moloch.
> C. Plymell
Charles:
Damn good
point. I am going to send a batch of
posts to Hal. From my
brief, but
eternal talk with him, I think he would agree with this. It
is interesting
that with Allen's recent death that all walk in highest
praise of
him. Like everyone else, I wanted to
remember all the good of
Ginsberg. I do the same with myself everyday to
maintain this facade
of "sanity". But, like of all of us, he had his
warts. And it is
amusing to
consider your imagry here.
It will take a
while to get this stuff to Hal, but I will let you know
if he responds.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:44:52 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> I reread
Howl this afternoon...and I think not so much that it is
>
misunderstood as suffering from a very specialized and narrow
>
audience. I read it and
thought.....period piece...I don't think it
> will
transcend time... Usually people can empathsize and relate to
> another's
emotional trauma...but it is very difficult to connect to
> Ginsberg in
Howl. I do have an appreciation for the
poem...he does
> convey some
stunning ideas and displays verbal dexterity and wit...... I
> feel as if
people who can relate, would really hoist this poem as the
> icon of the
the time and/ or experience...it would be ...the emblem poem
> that it
is.. But as a reader, I'm an outsider,
gawking and
>
rubber-necking a tragedy I can only witness from afar and listen to the
> howling
without ever wanting to howl myself.
> Barb
Barb,
Howl, as well as
the rest of the poetry of Ginsberg, will stand the test
of time. You and I obviously come from very different
experiences. When
I first
discovered Howl, it literally saved my life.
It was not until he
died and I read
the hundreds of memorials posted on various web pages
that I saw in
writing what I had known intellectually all along. That he
truly touched the
souls of masses of people, many whom would not be alive
today if his
words had not given them the freedom and power to be
themselves. And beyond that, to write of themselves. Not only do I
identify with
Howl, although I wasn't born until the fifies, I knew that
it marked the
beginning of a time when poetry would no longer be the same
again. It marked a time when no longer would the
same limits be placed
on thought or the
poetry that came from that thought. In
his incredible
body of work, of
which Howl is just the cornerstone, Ginsberg gave us a
new definition of
how humanness, every little speck of humanness, could
indeed be
poetic. He also spoke of America, an
imperfect America, and
how it is
necessary for poets to address the culture which is at their
feet. But the big thing about Ginsberg is that he
was remained positive
in addressing the
darkness of the mind and what he saw as the darkness of
America. While he pointed the the dusty, rotting
imageless locomotives,
he also pointed
to the sunflower of the soul.
I cannot
understand how you cannot relate to the emotional trauma of
Howl! How can you possibly not want to howl
yourself? Life is a howl.
I would urge you
to start to howl. Find it inside of
yourself.
The rhythm of
Ginsberg's poetry is the rhythm of life in America today.
When you say that
"I think that Howl and many of his major works...are
limited, and
honestly will end up, not as the major voice of the 20th c.,
but a voice of a
period for a particular subsect of the population," I
have to wonder
how much of Ginsberg you have read. He
was a major voice
in the twentieth
century but he obviously did not take poetry in the
direction you
want it to go.
You are reading
beat literature but you don't really see it as enduring.
Only time will tell. I for one think it will.
But for that to happen
beat literature
has to keep being published, being taught in schools and
colleges all over
this country equally, so that people continue to read
it, and whole new
generations of writers develop their own voices from
the influences of
the beats.
I seriously want
to know what path your line of thought takes in terms of
twentieth century
poetry. You mentioned, "I am awed
by Plath, Sexton,
Rich, Bishop,
Levertov, Walker...Women with strong voices, writing on
issues that
concern not only women, but humanity."
What did these women
say that inspired
you in a way that Ginsberg does not? The
confessional
mode of writing
is a uniquely twentieth century development but although
Plath and Sexton
got their concerns out in words, it did not, could not,
save their own
lives. I don't think that their writing
will stand the
test of
time. Do you?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:54:47 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
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RACE --- wrote:
>
>> my point
is that one's influences change dramatically in a different
>
lifetime. and the significance of the
influence changes during the
> lifetime as
well. someone who is MAJOR in the early
years may become
> minor as an
influence in later writings. a
non-literati example, dylan
> is
incredibly influenced by Guthrie in the early days. after Highway
> 61, the
Guthrie influence is minor and later very very difficult to
> catch for
the untrained ear/eye. some folks during
their lifetime take
> compleat
flip-flops concerning influences. i was
so turned on the first
> time i read
Kerouac. later i thought, blasphemously,
"whatever" he's
> just looking
out a car window, now i'm back to gobbling him up like
> fancy
food. not that i'm a poet mind you.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
David,
First of all, you
are a poet. And, now that you've explained it more, I
also agree with
what you say about one's influences changing tremendously
in a
lifetime. Everyone is influenced by many
different things, and
these things are
constantly changing. That's why the
study of
literature,
music, whatever, is so much fun.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:15:05 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: David
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David:
Of course you're
a poet, that is what is wrong with you and all the
other people who
are on this list and the Celtics list.
;-)
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:26:58 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: David
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> David:
>
> Of course
you're a poet, that is what is wrong with you and all the
> other people
who are on this list and the Celtics list.
;-)
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
i aint no poet
i aint no poet
i aint no poet
i aint no poet
i aint no poet
i aint no poet
i aint no poet
my italian cousin Rinaldo is a
poet
i am Superman
i am Superman
i am Superman
i am Superman
i am Superman
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:12:40 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS
<2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Second Beat Magazine
Comments: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hey,
I know you've
heard all of this before, but we're back.
Second Beat
Magazine (more of a fanzine) is self-published fanzine put
together by two
guys heavily influenced by the Beat Generation. It's main
function is to
get new writers in print. We are open to submissions by
anyone, published
or not, beat or not. We're just looking for poetry from a
range of new
poets to publish.
We recently set
subscription rates: $1.00 per issue, $10.00 per 12 issue
subscription
(which should be about one year).
Two issues have
been completed previous to this, of a lower quality than
the upcoming
issues, and will be available as free sample issues.
Two issues have
been planned ahead: the Ginsberg Memorial issue will be
issue number
three and issue four will be devoted to dealing with a pesonal
issue with a
church group having negative opinions on our message. Both
look to be
interesting.
We are accepting
submissions regarding the Ginsberg issue, but must insist
that they be soon
as it is nearly ready for the presses.
If any of you
have e-mailed me in the past, I would appreciate you sending
them as we have
lost all of our e-mail files due to technical difficulties.
Thanks,
Thadeus D'Angelo,
Camelia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:15:14 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS
<2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Second Beat part 2
Comments: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Forgot to mention
that you'll need to send the e-mails to:
<2ndbeat@telapex.com>
as I will be
leaving the discussion list after this post.
Thanks again,
Thadeus D'Angelo,
Camelia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:39:41 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: beat generation/milestone
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Content-Type:
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DIED.
ALLEN GNSBERG, 70, quintes-
sential beatnik poet, of a
heart attack brought on by
chronic liver disease; in
New York City. Forming the
trinity of the 1950s Beat
generation along with Will
iam Burroghs and Jack Kero
uac, ginsberg captured pub
lic attention in 1956 with
HOWL, a long poem that ra
ged against a conformist s
ociety and dealt with his
homosexuality. In the '60s
and '70s, he was active in
both the hippie and antiwa
r movements. His poetry pr
efigured punk and New Age,
drawing inspiration from y
oga, Buddishm, Native Amer
ican mysticism, the Torah
and U.S. poets like Willia
m Carlos Williams.
T I M E THE WEEKLY NEWSMAGAZINE - april
21,1997
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:40:03 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: pidgin rant
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
tic!
tic!! tic!!!
+&
On
Ly
mon
sters
shall survive
+&
& queues
at
the
postal office
+&
---
Yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:56:04 -0500
Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Subject: Cassady; Drugs
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--============_-1345321846==_============
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Here are two items from today's N.Y.
TIMES that I'm passing along . . .
--============_-1345321846==_============
Content-Type:
text/plain; name="Neal_Cassady,_On_the_Road_&_Off";
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition:
attachment; filename="Neal_Cassady,_On_the_Road_&_Off"
[banner]
[toolbar]
June 20, 1997
A Young Neal Cassady, On the Road and
Off
--------------------------------------------------------
Forum
* Join a Discussion on Movies
--------------------------------------------------------
By STEPHEN HOLDEN
[Y] ou didn't have to dye your hair
green, pierce your
tongue and wear bizarre eye
makeup to stand out as a
flaming rebel in the late 1940s. All
you had to do was
chain-smoke, play pool, listen to
be-bop and break
girls' hearts.
That's the portrait of the
20-year-old Neal Cassady
(flashily played by the newcomer
Thomas Jane) that
emerges in Stephen Kay's
snazzy-looking but slight film,
"The Last Time I Committed
Suicide."
At 20, the man who became a guiding
light of the Beat
Generation, inspiring Jack Kerouac's
"On the Road" and
later joining Ken Kesey's psychedelic
troupe the Merry
Pranksters, is portrayed as a hunky
mixed-up kid with
too many hormones roiling around in
his body.
The movie is based on a letter that
the young Cassady
wrote to Kerouac when Cassady was
living in Denver and
working the night shift at a Goodyear Tire factory. The
fragments of the letter heard over
the soundtrack
suggest a fevered, semi-coherent
stream-of-consciousness
running on a jazzy, hopped-up rhythm
that became a
hallmark of Beat literature.
Kay has made that rhythm the visual
pulse of his debut
feature film. Beyond recounting
incidents in Cassady's
youth, the movie, whose soundtrack is
drenched in
be-bop, aspires to be an
impressionistic canvas of
America when the country, still
dewy-eyed with postwar
optimism, was jumping out of its
collective skin.
Almost every shot is drenched in rich
period detail so
acute it has a surreal edge. When
Cassady visits an
office where one of his girlfriends
works as a typist,
the place is a hushed dimly lit
cathedral to capitalism
in which elaborately coiffed
secretaries sit in rigid
formation behind giant manual
typewriters. Later, when
Cassady and some friends steal a
bright red convertible
for a joy ride, the image of the
cherry-red car jouncing
through a field with snowcapped
mountains in the
background has the nostalgic tug of a Saturday
Evening
Post cover illustration.
When not creating memorable visual
tableaux, the film
observes Neal's frenetic love life as
he zigzags between
the sad-eyed, suicidal Joan (Claire
Forlani) and Cherry
Mary (Gretchen Mol), a sexually
precocious teen-ager who
suggests the adolescent Shirley
Temple gone bad. In his
spare time, Neal hangs out at a pool
hall, drinking
beers with Harry, a lowlife crony who
is 12 years his
senior.
Keanu Reeves, looking bloated and
bleary-eyed, gives
Harry a woozy affability. Also
popping up from time to
time is a skinny, spectacled friend
named Ben (Adrien
Brody), who has a big crush on Neal
and who appears to
be modeled after the young Allen
Ginsberg.
As effectively as it evokes the late
1940s, "The Last
Time I Committed Suicide" has
little dramatic momentum.
Although the film tries to suggest a
wrenching inner
conflict between Neal's wanderlust
and his fantasy of a
picture-perfect bourgeois life (he
has recurrent dreams
of a house with a picket fence),
there is clearly no
contest. If the movie is dramatically
inert, it has the
charm of a lovingly assembled
personal scrapbook. It's
clear in every frame of the film how
strongly Kay
identifies with his legendary
subject.
PRODUCTION NOTES:
'THE LAST TIME I COMMITTED SUICIDE'
With: Thomas Jane (Neal Cassady),
Keanu Reeves (Harry),
Adrien Brody (Ben), Claire Forlani
(Joan) and Gretchen
Mol (Cherry Mary). Written and directed
by Stephen Kay;
based on a letter written by Neal
Cassady to Jack
Kerouac; director of photography,
Bobby Bukowski; edited
by Dorian Harris; music by Tyler
Bates; production
designer, Amy Ancona; produced by
Edward Bates and
Louise Rosner; released by
Kushner-Locke Company, Roxie
Releasing and Tapestry Films.
Running time: 95 minutes. This film
is rated R.
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June 20, 1997
Seductive Drug Culture Flourishes on
Internet
By CHRISTOPHER S. WREN
[E] ven as parents, teachers and
government officials
urge adolescents to say no to
drugs, the Internet is
burgeoning as an alluring bazaar
where anyone with a
computer can find out how to get high on LSD,
eavesdrop
on what it is like to snort heroin or
cocaine, check the
going price for marijuana or copy the
chemical formula
for methamphetamine, the stimulant
better known as
speed.
Teen-agers need only retreat to
their ------
rooms, boot up the computer and
click Today in
on a cartoon bumblebee named Buzzy
to CyberTimes
be whisked on line, through a graphic
called Bong Canyon, to a mail-order ARTICLES AND
house in Los Angeles that
promises COLUMNS
the scoop on "legal highs,"
"growing
hallucinogens," "cannabis
alchemy," Internet Is a
"cooking with cannabis" and
other Drug Bazaar
"trippy, phat, groovy
things." for Children
By Christopher
Or they can download advice on S. Wren
cultivating marijuana plants from the
Web page of HempBC, a store in In New French
Vancouver, British Columbia,
that Best-Seller,
offers "everything marijuana-
and Software Meets
hemp-related: bongs to books,
clothes Espionage
to cosmetics and more,"
including an By Steve
assortment of hemp and marijuana Ditlea
seeds.
China Unveils
"Anybody can set up a Web
site," said Supercomputer
John Holmstrom, publisher of
High By The
Times, a monthly magazine that
has Associated
celebrated the marijuana culture
for Press
more than two decades and created a
site of its own on the World Wide
Web Panel Chief
two years ago. "There are
hundreds of Says Computer
pro-marijuana sites out there. I Attacks Are
can't keep track of them." Sure to Come
By The
Alarms have rung in Congress and Associated
around the country about the
risks Press
that online pornography pose to the
young. But few such warnings
sound Fighting the
for what has become a virtual Technology Gap
do-it-yourself guide to drug use,
at With
a time when adolescents' Old-Fashioned
experimenting is on the rise. Activism
By Jason
"We're really losing the war on
the Chervokas &
Internet," said Kellie Foster,
a Tom Watson
spokeswoman for the Community
Anti-Drug Coalitions of America, INTERNET Q&A
which hopes to establish its own
Web By John Freed
site next month. "We've got to
get
out there, and we're not." ------
The audience is certainly there.
The TODAY'S
Center for Media Education, a SECTION FRONT
Washington group that monitors
quality on the Internet, reports
that SEVEN-DAY
nearly 5 million children from 2
to INDEX
17 years of age used online services
in 1996 and that more than 9
million CYBERTIMES
college students use the
Internet FORUMS
regularly.
CYBERTIMES
"We really are witnessing
the NAVIGATOR
development of the most powerful
medium that has ever existed, in ------
terms of its ability to attract and
interest young people," said Jeff
Chester, the center's executive
director.
The drug culture on the Internet has
proliferated in
several ways. One is in the tolerance
or outright
endorsement of illegal drugs, especially
marijuana, in
online forums and chat groups.
Another is in explicit
instructions for growing, processing
and consuming
drugs.
[Image] Critics like Gen. Barry
McCaffrey, retired,
director
of the White House
Office of National Drug Control
Policy, say they also
detect a campaign on the Internet to
undercut the
government's anti-drug policies by
generating the
appearance of rising grass-roots
sentiment for modifying
or scrapping drug laws.
"We say in a democracy that good
ideas will drive out
bad ones," McCaffrey said in a
telephone interview. "So
if the good ones aren't there, we're
left with the bad
ones."
"The question," he said,
"is not whether they have right
to put this kind of material out in
the debate of ideas.
The question is, Do parents,
teachers, coaches and
ministers understand that this
information is out
there?"
The indications are that they do not.
Because they are
less computer-literate than their
children, many adults
have no clue that their warnings
against illegal drugs
can be eclipsed by a few keystrokes.
And, partly owing to free-speech
protection, the
Internet lacks a quality control
mechanism to separate
fact from hyperbole or from outright
falsehood, even in
discussion that may ultimately
encourage an activity
that remains illegal, for Americans
of all ages.
Online testimonials make recreational
drugs sound like
fun.
Tripping out on LSD, a high school
student reported,
"was one of the coolest things
I've ever done."
A frequent snorter of cocaine said,
"I always enjoy the
first toot," adding: "I can
place a phone call and
within an hour get it delivered. It's
as routine as
coffee in the morning. And just about
as necessary."
There has even been a chat group for
people "thinking of
trying heroin."
That kind of talk would be nothing
new to a high school
or college bull session, but
face-to-face contact can
help adolescents evaluate a speaker's
credibility. The
anonymity of online discussion, in
contrast, tends to
make even outlandish statements seem
credible to
impressionable young eavesdroppers.
A connection among young people,
drugs and the Internet
was noticed by Walter Shultz, the
campus safety
coordinator for a suburban school
district near
Pittsburgh, who says he discovered
numerous online
promotions of local "raves"
-- all-night dance parties
-- where designer stimulants like
"cat" and "special-K"
were popular.
"There's no doubt in my [Image]
mind that they have
information on illegal
drugs and supply" through the
Internet's links, Shultz
said. "Some of those take you
into places where you
wouldn't want a child to go."
The online tolerance of drugs is in
part a reflection of
the nature of Web discourse.
"The online world is the freest
community in American
life," Jon Katz wrote in the
April issue of Wired, a
magazine that analyzes the Internet.
"Its members can do
things considered unacceptable
elsewhere in our
culture."
That includes challenging any
assumption that drug use
is wrong.
"I'd have to agree that the
status quo folks are pretty
much being hammered," said Mark
Greer, a director of the
Media Awareness Project, which uses
the Internet to
lobby for the weakening or repeal of
drug laws. "They
don't seem to even be trying to compete with
us on the
Web."
"There are a lot of
people," Greer said, "who have just
had it with the prohibitionist
mentality. This is an
outlet where you can put in your time
and really make a
difference."
Robert Curley, a freelance writer and
consultant on
Internet use, estimates that
three-quarters of the
online voices speaking about drugs
favor some kind of
legalization.
"They definitely control the
discussion on the
Internet," Curley said.
"The pro-legalization people are
light-years ahead of the
anti-legalization people."
One group, the Drug Reform
Coordination Network, has
been working on line since 1993 to
change drug laws,
although its founder, David Borden,
distances its
campaign from unabashed proselytizing
like that of High
Times.
"While we're friendly with them,"
Borden said, "we want
to stay away from anything seen as
promoting the use of
drugs."
In a report last March, the Center
for Media Education
accused alcohol and tobacco companies
of promoting their
products on the Internet with
"captivating, fun,
interactive sites that are very
appealing to under-age
youth." Other critics are saying
the same thing about
Web sites that promote marijuana with
a sassiness that
leaves sober arguments against drug use
looking pallid.
[Image] David L. Rosenbloom, president of Join
Together, a Boston
organization that helps
community groups fight
drug and alcohol
abuse, says marketers of marijuana
seeds and drug
paraphernalia are copying the alcohol
and tobacco
companies, which promote their
products through glitzy
Web sites that have featured croaking
Budweiser frogs
and a Camel cigarette Party Zone.
"Sophisticated graphics make a
difference," Rosenbloom
said. "It's more powerful than
television and radio,
because it is interactive."
Holmstrom, of High Times, says the
monthly number of
electronic visits to his magazine's
Web site has doubled
since last December. Now, he said,
"we are averaging
200,000 home page visitors a
month."
High Times dispenses an array of online
advertising and
other services that Holstrom says
have turned a profit,
like coaching on how to beat a drug
test. The best of
the tips are left to a related
telephone service, a call
to which costs $1.95 a minute.
A survey that the magazine conducted
among its Web site
visitors found that 85 percent were
male, 43 percent
were full-time students, and most
were young. Holmstrom
says 64 percent of respondents
identified themselves as
being 18 to 24 years old, and 12
percent 25 to 29 years
old. The number admitting to being
under 18 was "not
significant," he says.
High Times posts a disclaimer on its
Web site that says
users must be 18 or older. But "we
can't prevent
under-age people from accessing the
site without keeping
everybody off," Holmstrom said.
One clue to adolescence on the
Internet is the
prevalence of cartoons in praise of
marijuana.
A High Times cartoon showed a
character called Pot-Peye
getting stoned with his chums.
"I'm mellow to the
finish, 'cuz I smokes me
spinach," said Pot-Peye, who
resembled the genuine Popeye.
A counterculture Web site called
Paranoia had a cartoon
pothead declaring: "You know
this stuff should be legal!
It can make an ordinary day so much
brighter!"
The Internet also abounds in casual
advice like the
"suggestions for first-time
users" of "ecstasy," a
hallucinogenic stimulant that has
been found to damage
the brains of monkeys in research at
Johns Hopkins
University. Nicholas Saunders, the
author of this online
advice, cautioned ecstasy neophytes
only to "avoid
alcohol and other drugs, & if you
are dancing, realize
that you may be dangerously
overheated even without
feeling uncomfortable."
Anecdotal misinformation appears
particularly rife in
online chat groups. When a man asked
whether it was safe
to mix methamphetamine with alcohol
-- a dangerous
combination, medical experts say -- a
seasoned user
named Durto assured him, "Yeah,
you can drink on speed,
and drink and drink."
Not all online drug information is
pro-drug. Join
Together uses the Internet to help
isolated community
groups around the country trade
experiences in fighting
drug and alcohol abuse. Its Web site
downloads for
subscribers more than 300,000
documents a month about
alcohol, tobacco and drugs.
"We're finding it a very
powerful medium for
disseminating information much more
rapidly and in a
user-friendly way," said
Rosenbloom, Join Together's
president.
Ethan A. Nadelmann, the director of
the Lindesmith
Center in New York, which advocates a
liberalizing of
drug policies, said the Internet
allowed an unfettered
discussion that government had
foreclosed in more
structured public debate.
"The more the battle is played
on this field, the more
drug reform policy advances," said
Nadelmann, whose Web
site gets 30,000 to 40,000 visits a
month.
The battle is not always civil. In
late March, Greer,
one of the opponents of the drug
laws, posted
instructions on the Internet for
jamming the toll-free
number of the Community Anti-Drug
Coalitions of America.
The 5 calls he made in 10 minutes,
Greer announced,
could be "quite devastating to
Cadca if we can multiply
my efforts by a few thousand."
Ms. Foster, the Cadca spokeswoman,
said her organization
had been forced to change its
telephone format as a
result.
"While we're trying to spend
money preventing children
from drug use," she said,
"these people are trying to
spend our money so that we can't do
positive work."
In a subsequent interview, Greer said
his "call to
action" to inflate Cadca's
telephone bill had been "a
kind of an experimental type thing." His
bread-and-butter advocacy is a weekly
Focus Alert over
the Internet that encourages
campaigns of letter-writing
to newspapers, to try to shape their
coverage of drug
issues.
"I think that we've only just
seen the tip of the
iceberg on the results that are going
to promulgate from
Internet activism," Greer said.
"You're at such a big
advantage if you're trying to get truth
and accuracy
out."
Home | Sections | Contents | Search
| Forums | Help
Copyright 1997 The New York
Times Company
----------------------------------------------------------
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was designed for me. Click here for Microsoft Internet
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--============_-1345321846==_============--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:06:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Blow, blow, blow
your brains out,
Drown yourself in
the stream;
MaryLee MaryLee
MaryLee MaryLee,
Life is but a
scream.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:18:10 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
RACE --- wrote:
>
> i could
never make it through Howl. tried so
many times but got lost in
> all that
structure.
>
>The best
thing to get past what you see as the structure is to hear him read
it. I
particularly like the old, 1959 recording he made, because I
think his voice
of reading it is closest to what he felt when he wrote
it. Once you understand how he meant the lines to
flow I think you will
be utterly taken
with it. He also reads several other
poems on it,
including
America, and Sunflower Sutra, and I think just getting a sense
of the rhythm of
his lines makes understanding future writings easier.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:31:42 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>Charles,
>> Damn
good point. I am going to send a batch
of posts to Hal. From my
> brief, but
eternal talk with him, I think he would agree with this. It
> is
interesting that with Allen's recent death that all walk in highest
> praise of
him. Like everyone else, I wanted to
remember all the good of
>
Ginsberg. I do the same with myself
everyday to maintain this facade
> of "sanity". But, like of all of us, he had his
warts. And it is
> amusing to
consider your imagry here.
>
>From what
I've read about Allen, seems like he was a pain in the ass a lot of
the time.
We all have a lot of flaws.
Doesn't diminish the body
of work.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:48:25 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: buddhist hangover
Head hurts from
the Black Cat
The stamp on my
hand made a blur on my face.
I slept in fetal
liquid with my hand against my cheek
and dreamt of
Sri Lanka and the
fat monks
with greasy hands
from too much food-worship.
It's against the
rules to even touch a woman
(the Curse! the
Curse!)
Especially when
sitting on the bus.
When the flag
flaps your own death at half-mast
you'll feel the
breeze of gratitude.
These and other
words Mike told me last night.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:07:44 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970620110638_1788367908@emout20.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:06 AM
6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>Blow, blow,
blow your brains out,
>Drown
yourself in the stream;
>MaryLee
MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
>Life is but a
scream.
>
Damn straight. Life is but a polluted
stream of sewage. --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:13:32 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Hunter
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"No matter
what, today is the end of an era. No more fair play. From
now on it is dirty pool and judo in
the clinches. The savage
nuts have
shattered the great myth of American
decency. They can count me in
-- I feel ready for a dirty
game."
-- Gonzo journalist HUNTER S.
THOMPSON, n a newly published
letter he wrote to friend and author
William Kennedy on Nov. 22,
1963, the day President Kennedy was
assassinated.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:26:53 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 11:06 AM
6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
> >Blow,
blow, blow your brains out,
> >Drown
yourself in the stream;
> >MaryLee
MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
> >Life is
but a scream.
> >
>
> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted
stream of sewage. --Sara
perhaps a
Beatlist group
skinnydip
in the sewagey
stream will open some sinuses.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:49:34 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:06 AM
6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Blow, blow,
blow your brains out,
>Drown
yourself in the stream;
>MaryLee
MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
>Life is but a
scream.
>
>
Don't say things
like that.
We love you.
It scares me to
hear things like this.
Take care,
Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:26:02 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 11:06 AM
6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
> >Blow,
blow, blow your brains out,
> >Drown
yourself in the stream;
> >MaryLee
MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
> >Life is
but a scream.
> >
>
> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted
stream of sewage. --Sara
Geez! whatever
happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:12:56 +0100
Reply-To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
In-Reply-To: <33AA5ABA.39C7@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 20 Jun
1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> Sara Feustle
wrote:
> >
> > At
11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
> >
>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,
> >
>Drown yourself in the stream;
> >
>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
> >
>Life is but a scream.
> > >
> >
> > Damn straight. Life is but a polluted
stream of sewage. --Sara
>
> Geez!
whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"
> Barb
>
...still there, still there, but the
fish are now a strange &
disconcerting
shape, with many more eyes that all look back at you all at
once...
-- Olly R.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:36:45 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Comments: To:
or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Olly Ruff wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20
Jun 1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> > Sara
Feustle wrote:
> > >
> > > At
11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
> > >
>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,
> > >
>Drown yourself in the stream;
> > >
>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
> > >
>Life is but a scream.
> > >
>
> > >
> >
> Damn straight. Life is but a
polluted stream of sewage. --Sara
> >
> > Geez!
whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"
> > Barb
> >
>
> ...still there, still there, but the
fish are now a strange &
>
disconcerting shape, with many more eyes that all look back at you all at
> once...
>
-- Olly R.
Don't cross the
River if you can't swim the tide,
Don't try denying
living on the other side,
AMERICA
If there is a
god, it is the river, cause it is the only thing that is
in the mountains,
going around the bend and at the sea at the same time.
DYLAN
I am a child in
these hills, looking for water, looking for life.
Jackson Browne
See, when the
electrcity (light) hit the saline solution (sea) we were
created by the
hand of god. It was not in one 24 hour
day, but it was
in one day. And what was used to make us, why the ashes
and dust to
which we
return. And the same chemicals and
elements as you find in the
soil, the sea,
the air. We are only discreet forms of
energy split off
from our memory
of the greater whole.
You don't believe
you're just a living blob.
Guess Who
That we have
forgotten and so we can not truly give love.
Under the City
laid a heart made of ground but the humans could give no
love!
America
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:00:18 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33AAAF4C.21F7@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:26 AM
6/20/97 -0500, RACE --- wrote:
>Sara Feustle
wrote:
>>
>> At 11:06
AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>> >Blow,
blow, blow your brains out,
>>
>Drown yourself in the stream;
>>
>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
>> >Life
is but a scream.
>> >
>>
>> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted
stream of sewage. --Sara
>
>
>perhaps a
Beatlist group
>skinnydip
>in the
sewagey stream will open some sinuses.
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
Hey, RACE, damn good idea!!! I thought
you were leaving us for a
while.....change
your mind? I hope so! --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:02:17 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Comments: To:
or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SOL.3.95q.970620191059.11573A-100000@indigo.csi.cam.a c.uk>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:12 PM
6/20/97 +0100, Olly Ruff wrote:
>On Fri, 20
Jun 1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
>> Sara
Feustle wrote:
>> >
>> > At
11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>> >
>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,
>> >
>Drown yourself in the stream;
>> >
>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
>> >
>Life is but a scream.
>> >
>
>> >
>>
> Damn straight. Life is but a
polluted stream of sewage. --Sara
>>
>> Geez!
whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"
>> Barb
>>
>
> ...still there, still there, but the
fish are now a strange &
>disconcerting
shape, with many more eyes that all look back at you all at
>once...
>
-- Olly R.
EXACTLY!!! --Sara *smile*
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:01:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
MIME-Version: 1.0
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7bit
Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 11:26 AM
6/20/97 -0500, RACE --- wrote:
> >Sara
Feustle wrote:
> >>
> >> At
11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
> >>
>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,
> >>
>Drown yourself in the stream;
> >>
>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
> >>
>Life is but a scream.
> >>
>
> >>
>
>> Damn straight. Life is
but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara
> >
> >
> >perhaps
a Beatlist group
>
>skinnydip
> >in the
sewagey stream will open some sinuses.
> >
> >david
rhaesa
> >salina,
Kansas
> >
>
> Hey, RACE, damn good idea!!! I thought
you were leaving us for a
>
while.....change your mind? I hope so! --Sara
Couldn't leave
before the group skinny and all that jazz. . . .
i've left almost the other lists
but
this one
is
under my skins
like a Venitian blind
duck hunting poet
that
comes across
a band of dippers in the skinny
and shoots just over their
heads
4
kicks
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:33:00 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: rerererererere:rerererereeeeeeeer
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
James
M.
_______________________________________________
____________________________
__________________________
________
. . .
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:58:05 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Jazz
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In response to:
> Yeah, that's
too bad that Ferlinghetti tried a lot of things that didn't
> work. It was
kind of a fad reading to jazz. More difficult than one thinks.
> The best
I've heard is Kerouac on the Steve Allen show (who was he with; I
> can hear
some of the poetry, but can't recall the musician's name.) The other
> poet I
thought had a good jazz ear was Kenneth Patchen.
> Paul Bley
lives here in Cherry Valley. We've thought about working together.
> I arranged
for him to do a gig with Burroughs years ago. We could probably
> pull it off,
but his compositions are privately progressive. It's something,
> if it clicks
it's great, but most poets can't tell when it clicks.
> Charles
Plymell
I believe Kerouac
read with Zoot Sims and Al Cohn (saxophones). BTW,
does anybody know
if 'Mexico City Blues' has ever been recorded. It is
not the easiest
text, and hearing it for its rhythm would help
tremendously.
The catch with
any group effort, in any field (literary, musical,
sports, etc), is
to have the members dig each other before entering into
the project =
more discipline, commitment.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:07:55 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Jazz
In-Reply-To: <33AA9A7D.24D4@discovland.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> I believe
Kerouac read with Zoot Sims and Al Cohn (saxophones). BTW,
> does anybody
know if 'Mexico City Blues' has ever been recorded. It is
> not the
easiest text, and hearing it for its rhythm would help
> tremendously.
> The catch
with any group effort, in any field (literary, musical,
> sports,
etc), is to have the members dig each other before entering into
> the project
= more discipline, commitment.
> Joseph
Neudorfer
joe;
allen ginsberg
recorded "mexco city blues" last year (or the yr before)
and i should be
pretty easily available, from waterrow books, if not
elsewhere. (its
good too - all the verses, & allen's voice.mmm.)
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:55:31 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: More Beat films...
Comments: To:
brooklyn@netcom.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Levi--
Here's another
two Beat-made movies for your Beat film page. Never heard of
either, but they
sound like they're worth serious investigation.
m
----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Jun
1997 10:26:39 +0000
From:
earwickr@sirius.com
To: Matt
Colonnese <matthew.colonnese@yale.edu>
Cc:
droneon@ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: oops
and drone movie ?
>The drone
film thread reminded me of a question:
what is the name
>of very
circular, repetive short film with voices saying
>"hello...yes...yes...hello"
over and over, with constantly repeating
>picutres of
burroughs (I think) and FBI agents ect...
?
Are you thinking
of "The Cut-Ups"? It was an
experiment in using
Byron Gysin's cut
up techniques in film. It has footage of
Burroughs
and someone else
having a short conversation which is snipped and
rearranged ad
nauseum. There is also another film by
the same
filmmaker called "Towers
Open Fire" that includes Burroughs and a
bunch of Beat
writers as some sort of government committee.
Most of
it's dialogue is
from the first 50 pages of NOVA EXPRESS.
-Kelly
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:12:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: does anyone here speak french?
mail-order brides
and popcorn newspapers
have me in a funk
drunk as a skunk
God forgive me
for writing poetry
that rhymes!
'Mepris Felin'
Quand la lune est
pleine
et mon coeur est
gros
je penses a toi
et tu me caresses
avec plus de
tendresse
que ton chat.
Mais la lune
n'est pleine
que rarement.
Et ton chat
m'epie avec ses yeux jaunatres, pleins
de haine.
Il est clair a
qui tu appartiens.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:47:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: pome 'bout poets, first draft
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Friday the 13th,
Plattsberg, NY
Hava Java Poetry
Reading
I sit, surrounded
by men
gentle men
poet men
giving names to
the unnameable
and voice to the unspeakable,
opening themselves up,
using words as scapels.
Transcendental
alchemy
changing blood to ink-
ink filling voids with words.
I sit, suddenly
again the child i never was.
How many years
now lost?
how many fractured fine lines
hold my selves
precariously,
together?
(stifled all
these years,
fearing words would crack me open
only to find an empty shell)
tonight i sit
with these gentle men
whose poems bank the protective fire
which holds us in its ring
and the universe
cracks open
inside my soul:
it isn't just me
inside this ring
it isn't just me
inside this ring,
this ring of fire
and blood.
the grey smoke of
the fire ring
gives birth
to metaphors stark
and shark naked facts,
as my facts
my metaphors
my grey smoke
rises and merges
with all.
the poems alchemy
begins its work,
changing blood to ink.
Suddenly,
a girl of seven,
feet dangling off the floor,
appears in my chair.
Me?
Not me?
oh! me AND me,
all dressed up
and no place to grow.
that is,
until tonight.
right now i'm
only seven
and awake long past my bed time
staying up late with the little
boys
in men's pockets of poems.
we speak
of hateful mothers
of hurtful fathers
and winnie the pooh.
no bitterness
remains.
in this charmed circle
this ring of fire
pain exchanged
transmutes itself
in this charmed circle,
this ring of fire,
the alchemy of
blood and pain:
souls bared,
souls shared.
it's bedtime now.
would you tuck me in now,
daddy?
- daddy isn't
here.
would you be my
fathers,
if only for tonight?
mc 6/20/97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:13:46 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
At 11:06 AM
6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>Blow, blow,
blow your brains out,
>Drown
yourself in the stream;
>MaryLee
MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
>Life is but a
scream.
>
>
RELAX!
Greg Elwell elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:38:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Who lasts?
In a message
dated 97-06-20 03:02:17 EDT, you write:
<< You
mentioned, "I am awed by Plath, Sexton,
Rich, Bishop, Levertov, Walker...Women with
strong voices, writing on
issues that concern not only women, but
humanity." What did these women
say that inspired you in a way that Ginsberg
does not? >>
I have the
feeling that Ginsberg will outlast any of these writers you
mentioned.
Pam Plymell
If you're
qualifying poetry for the masses Rod McKuen touched a hell of a lot
of people
too. Lyn Lifshin also touches a lot of
people. Time does funny
things to
literature.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:01:44 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: popularity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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One of the native
sons of our great state is mr Coogler.
Every year a
local org gives
out the Coogler to the worst writing. He
was very
popular. And Snoopy uses his most famous line:
It was a dark and
stormy night.
Popular as can be
wanna be like me
coogler is the
name
snoopy lines is
my game!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:05:39 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: sychronicity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Well, I made the
post, I went to some more email, I read about a PC
World article on
hand held calculators, and when I surfed there what did
I find, but
another Coogler. Man, this is
scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!
http://www.pcworld.com/annex/columns/lasky/jun_97/lasky061097.html?SRC=nswatch
How to Choose a
Pocket PC
Without Really
Trying
It was a dark
and stormy night (no,
really). Three of
us
sat around the campfire. As the flames
flickered eerie
shadows over our
faces, my friends argued
about the
ethics of spam
e-mail--not exactly the
bonding campfire
chat I was expecting from a
weekend of
camping, hiking,
and river
rafting. Ironic,
Isn't ironic,
just a little?
LOL at the
universe, I am
Yours very truly,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:14:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cassady; Drugs
It's important to
note that McCafferty was on watch when his men got
poisoned. Also
his drug war at the border has our army shooting our citizens
again. If anyone
is interested in this fool business of the drug wars taking
over the
propaganda since the Cold War and the drug cartels fueling our stock
market with a nod
to old capitalistic enterprise, then one should read my
personal history
of Reefer Madness at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:18:03 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: does anyone here speak french?
Maya:
The yellowish
eyes of his cat full of hate watch you constantly.
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:21:59 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jazz
I was going to
say Zoot Sims. I had the tape of it for a long while. Perfect
timing. I
remember a line from about the carpenter and his wainscoting. It's
easy to see how a
jazz musician could pick up on the sound of the word
Kerouac and build
a whole number around it.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:25:47 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah
blahblah....
MIME-Version: 1.0
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:
> >
>>
> >
>> At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
> >
>> >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,
> >
>> >Drown yourself in the stream;
> >
>> >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,
> >
>> >Life is but a scream.
> >
>> >
> >
>>
This would work
wonderfully with the howling and screaming slide guitar
Roy Rodgers is
doing --
Or a little
Friday night scatology
Blow, Blow blow
your beaux
Marylee, Marylee,
Marylee
Mary Lou, Marylou
Where the hell
are you
"We all need
someone to cream on"
> like a Venitian blind
>
> duck hunting poet
>
> that
comes across
>
> a band of dippers in the skinny
>
> and shoots just over
their
>
> heads
>
> 4
>
> kicks
>david rheasa
salina cans are us
All his duck
definitely in a row.
Zen
arching
12 gauge
BLAST!
J Stauffer
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:18:33 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Cassady; Drugs
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> It's
important to note that McCafferty was on watch when his men got
> poisoned.
Also his drug war at the border has our army shooting our
> citizens
> again. If
anyone is interested in this fool business of the drug wars
> taking
> over the
propaganda since the Cold War and the drug cartels fueling
> our stock
> market with
a nod to old capitalistic enterprise, then one should read
> my
> personal
history of Reefer Madness at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
>
> Charles
Plymell
Charles a damn
good point. Drug cartels, dealers and
the like are true
capitalist in the
spirit of Burroughs, Getty, Vanderbilt, Kennedy (ran a
little rum back
in prohibition, good thing there was no drug war then
eh?), Cabot,
Lodge, etc etc etc. So, why are they not
welcomed into
society like
others who raped us with a fountain pen.
Very curious
indeed. What hypocrites and we who know the truth are
the worst of the
hypocrites.
Legalize drugs,
tax them, do away with income and property taxes, quit
fighting
evolution.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:39:13 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: does anyone here speak french?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Bien sur
Maya...au moin si vous n'etes pas derange par un accent de Brooklyn
- Park Slope en
fait, mais je suis a Montreal depuis longtemps. J'ai vu que
vous etiez une "souterranien"
de Brooklyn il y a plusiers semaines, et j'ai
pense a dites
hello; maintenant j'ai un occasion parfait!
Le poesie est a
vous avec tous le francais? Ecrivez-vous en francais puis
vous faites le
traduction ou quoi? Il n'est rien plus ronde que "la
lune"...beacoup
plus sensuel que "moon".
Antoine, mais pas
francais ou quebecois...c'etait pour avoir "Anthony, mais
eviter "Tony
Maloney!" ....excusez
les fautes avec les
accents....ils
n'existent pas avec Eudora.
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and
Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:52:43 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Henry Miller-personal archives for sale.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If anyone is
interested Pacific Book Auction Galleries is selling Henry
Miller's personal
archives including first draft typescript- Tropic of
Capricorn
estimate
$60,000.00 /$90,000.00.
Some amazing material. This is only Part 1 of the
sale. The site to
view the catalog is:
http://www.nbn.com/pba/current.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:57:29 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: on this living thing
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It is interesting
that David hooked up with a rock. As I recall, Billy
was a mountain
and Ethel was a tree growing out of his shoulder. Then
Robert said, our
goal in life is "to be a rock and not to roll." My 8
year old daughter
will not allow us to shop at Home Depot because she
can still hear
the trees they cut down crying. I don't
go to nearby
strip shopping
center for the same.
Trees know when they
die, so do sad eyed cows. Everything is
alive,
everything is
conscious. Do not delude yourself. As Jackson Browne
said,
"you're here as a guest, better make your self at home, while
you're waiting
for the rest." What this means is
that we are the
caretakers for
this world and we are responsible for every grain of
sand. And, one day we will be held accountable for
our actions and our
inactions. I am only preaching to my self, I hope that I
am listening.
That rock is
alive, and so is the web. Ask Thomas
Wolfe.
Peace,
Long live Rock,
be it dead or alive. Pete Townshend.
Peace, we don't
have enought anyway.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:06:43 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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Trying to
remember lastnight's dreams is like throwing rocks at an old dog
to make him feel
shame and repent.
--Dream of
sleeping on a flat surface $ only waking up to type poems and
send them to New
Yorker. I am their poetry guy, for issues they publish
nothing but me. I
am driving Matthew away from farm, but the scene is
desert hills and
we see an elk running with antlers on both front and back.
Matthew maskes a
comment about the trees being gone from the desert and we
shed a tear for
them.--
Does anyone know
of the poet Bob Holman or has anyone heard him read the
poem "Rock
and Roll Mythology"? I laugh like hell whenever i think about
that. HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. I hope Bob
Holman's not on
this mailing list.
-leo jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:24:07 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: The other day
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The other day, I
got stung by a hornet. The wound was very angry.
Later, I dreamed
I was actually bitten by a snake.
It really didn't
bother me, though somehow, I think it should.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:37:01 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: more dreams
In-Reply-To: <33AB4956.72A69FD1@scsn.net>
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I dreamed two
nights ago i was chasing my ex-girlfriend, just chasing her
and chasing her.
i think she was on rollerblades. god that was a scary
dream. i think
she disappeared into her house toward the end.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:43:25 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes
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A little early
Lou Reed for those who have forgotten or never new . . .
Pale Blue Eyes
Sometimes I feel so happy
Sometimes feel so
sad
Sometimes
feel happy
But mostly you
just make me mad
Baby you just
make me mad
Linger on
your pale blue
eyes
Linger on
your pale blue
eyes
Thought of you as
my mountaintop
Thought of you as
my peak
Ihought of you as
everything
I've had but
couldn't keep
I've had but
couldn't keep
Linger on your pale blue eyes
Linger on your pale blue eyes
If I could make
the world as pure
and strange as
what I see
I'd put you in
the mirror
I put in front of
me
I put in front of
me.
Linger on your pale blue eyes
Linger on your pale blue eyes
Skip a life
completely
Stuff it in a cup
She said money is
like us in time
It lies but can't
stand up
Count for you is
up.
Linger on
your pale blue eyes
Linger on
your pale blue
It was good what
we did yesterday
And I'd do it
once again
The fact that you
are married
Only proves
you're my best friend
But it's
truely, truely a sin
Linger on
Your pale blue eyes.
Linger on
Your pale blue eyes.
from "The
Velvet Underground" 1968
third albut
Such a wonderful
mixture of wonderful lines and some pretty shakey ones
and strange
cynical naivete. Sometimes wonderfully
musical and
sometimes
woeful. God Bless the Velvets.
"And the
ladies rolled their eyes."
That rock n roll
station
"And it was
all right"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:37:36 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re:
more dreams and even more
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> I dreamed
two nights ago i was chasing my ex-girlfriend, just chasing h=
er
> and chasing
her. i think she was on rollerblades. god that was a scary
> dream. i
think she disappeared into her house toward the end.
>=20
> -leo
just woke from a
dream with me and a friend - stine - and burroughs (he
changed ages at
will) vacuuming a Pizza Hut up after a food fight or
something (quite
a mess we hadn't made) but we were really grinning
cleaning it up
cuz we didn't have to pay for our meal that way. we
tended to fight
over who got to run over the sweeper.
whoever made the
best line
insulting the owner without him knowing he was insulted got to
run the vacuum
while the other two picked up here and there and
continued to
insult the owners. the owners weren't
too bright!!! i
yelled at Stine
once remember when we cleaned up this Pizza Hut when we
were kids. (but it was a different town, a different
Pizza Hut, an
endless series of
Pizza Huts that were the same yet different yet the
same -- and of
course it made the cleaning job rather extensive as the
food fight or
whatever it was seemed to have been going on
simultaneously in
all these dimensions.) i remember
calling the owner a
'shit' burroughs turned to me - his head upside down
- turned under his
shoulder so i
would be only one to see - and grinned really strong. i
woke up.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:48:08 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: on this living thing
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> It is
interesting that David hooked up with a rock. As I recall, Billy
> was a
mountain and Ethel was a tree growing out of his shoulder. Then
> Robert said,
our goal in life is "to be a rock and not to roll." My 8
> year old
daughter will not allow us to shop at Home Depot because she
> can still
hear the trees they cut down crying. I
don't go to nearby
> strip
shopping center for the same.
>
> Trees know
when they die, so do sad eyed cows.
Everything is alive,
> everything
is conscious. Do not delude
yourself. As Jackson Browne
> said,
"you're here as a guest, better make your self at home, while
> you're
waiting for the rest." What this
means is that we are the
> caretakers
for this world and we are responsible for every grain of
> sand. And, one day we will be held accountable for
our actions and our
>
inactions. I am only preaching to my
self, I hope that I am listening.
>
> That rock is
alive, and so is the web. Ask Thomas
Wolfe.
>
> Peace,
>
> Long live
Rock, be it dead or alive. Pete
Townshend.
>
> Peace, we
don't have enought anyway.
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Or perhaps we all
aren't as damn animated as we think.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:38:34 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Look East Young Man
I'm not sure why,
but I'm driving east this week, from California, starting
in San Francisco,
from Vesuvios with a beer in my hand.
Then on to the
desert, to wake up with the sun hitting your eyes through the
windshield,
which kind of lleaves a warm sweat
coating your body. Don't know
what else, other
then a stop in Narleens (New Orleans), and up to New York.
And then do it
all again in July. This will not be exactly a beat adventure,
but it should be
an adventure.
I had just driven
to California from New York this past April, with the idea
of moving to
Portland Oregon. Haven't made it up there yet. Maybe when I come
back.
Is driving in a
Isuzu Trooper with a cooler full of peanutbutter sandwiches
in the back an
experience that is worthy of being worthy?
later, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:45:54 GMT
Reply-To: "C. Paquette"
<cp@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "C. Paquette"
<cp@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Look East Young Man
In-Reply-To:
<970621033833_-193616143@emout03.mail.aol.com>
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Attila:
Anything
involving travel AND peanut butter is *automatically* "worthy of=
being
worthy".
Chris
On Sat, 21 Jun
1997 03:38:34 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm not sure
why, but I'm driving east this week, from California, =
starting
>in San
Francisco, from Vesuvios with a beer in my hand.
>
>Then on to
the desert, to wake up with the sun hitting your eyes through=
the
>windshield,
which kind of lleaves a warm sweat
coating your body. Don't=
know
>what else, other
then a stop in Narleens (New Orleans), and up to New =
York.
>
>And then do
it all again in July. This will not be exactly a beat =
adventure,
>but it should
be an adventure.
>
>I had just
driven to California from New York this past April, with the =
idea
>of moving to
Portland Oregon. Haven't made it up there yet. Maybe when I=
come
>back.
>
>Is driving in
a Isuzu Trooper with a cooler full of peanutbutter =
sandwiches
>in the back
an experience that is worthy of being worthy?
>
>later, Attila
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:57:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes
In-Reply-To: <33AB69FD.10DA@pacbell.net>
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>A little
early Lou Reed for those who have forgotten or never new . . .
>
>
>
>Pale Blue
Eyes
_________
brought back
about a zillion memories for me james.
and also brought
to mind the later day lou reed
"stick a
fork in it turn it over its done"
(from memory only
so if misquoted, just take the message)
but did anyone
ever think nico did justice to the velvets?
now there's a
question for ya.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:14:36 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: David
In-Reply-To: <33AA0692.2976@midusa.net>
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dave wrote:
>i aint no
poet
>i aint no
poet
>i aint no
poet
>i aint no
poet
>i aint no
poet
>i aint no
poet
>i aint no
poet
>
> my italian cousin Rinaldo is a
poet
>
> i am Superman
>
i am Superman
>
i am Superman
>
i am Superman
>
i am Superman
>
"......and i
can do anything......." or is it
...."and i know what's
happening"
which of course
includes being a poet.
and yes, dear
rinaldo is a poet
and all lives can
be lived as poetry
and i still dont
know what i wanta be when i grow up!
=:D
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:27:59 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Zabriskie Point revised (Re: Oz and Moon
(non-Beat))
Mime-Version: 1.0
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DEAR friends,
the needed to get
off, Michelangelo Antonioni director,
filmed
"Zabriskie Point" in 1970 as an itinerary of
freedom
("Easy Ryder" was out before circa same period), &
Michelangelo
Antonioni first did consciousness Pink Floyd,
important music.
the scene of
explosion in ZP was commented by the
Pink Floyd's song
"Careful with that Axe, Eugene", then
Pink Floyd goes
in another further movies in years to come,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:10:05 +0100
Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: first draft of something.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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first thing : I
was thrown out of the Spread Eagle earlier today for
drinking alone
& for looking miserable. A huge bearded guy who looked like
God said
something kind but still fairly choice about not depressing the
other customers.
He asked me to move and I left, compromise.
This June is bad
; it's cold but still stays daylight for too long so that
you can see
everything when you don't want to see anything at all.
There are stones
in the yellow grass & it is also surrounded by stones -
in the light rain
Mike is lying in the yellow grass on his back - I walk
over to him to
steal one of his beers - Mike is from Singapore & wants to
know if I'm a
Taoist because I'm wearing a yinyang around my neck. I tell
him I don't have
the discipline. There is nobody else in sight.
I am standing in
the street & a woman who I don't know points out to me
that I'm
barefoot. I can see myself on a screen telling her that I can't
be bothered.
Traffic is.
I am nothing.
When I hit my fists against walls - any walls - I know
something is
wrong - the first few times I thought it was because there
was no echo -
then I realised it was because there was no sound there in
the first place
so nowhere for an echo to come from ; fifth thing.
These are
transparencies, they are pages from a flickbook, my right hand
is a frame from a
cartoon, I am badly drawn.
Piece the pages
back to back to gether - doesn't matter how you thread one
to the other -
looser, tighter, steinarbeiter -
The order makes
no difference - just run thru the pages - pick the frames
you like the best
and watch them all at once in five gorgeous seconds.
"Passive"
is a nice word. My self says it over & over to myself : passive
passive passive.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:36:16 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> >A little
early Lou Reed for those who have forgotten or never new . . .
> >
> >
> >
> >Pale
Blue Eyes
> _________
> brought back
about a zillion memories for me james.
> and also
brought to mind the later day lou reed
> "stick
a fork in it turn it over its done"
> (from memory
only so if misquoted, just take the message)
> but did
anyone ever think nico did justice to the velvets?
> now there's
a question for ya.
> mc
i mustaf listened
to "What's Good?" ten times.
can't beat that seeing
eye chocolate
line. and the cancer in April line still
i find
haunting. but what are you gonna do fake being deaf
mute like Chief in
Cuckoo's Nest -
even he told in the end. killed the
trees. and silence
could just as
easily moved cancer up to March or even February so let's
hear more Lou Reed
as we drink our mayonaisse soda's at Tom's Diner or
the College Inn.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:47:56 +0100
Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff
<or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: adios.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, it's time
for me to unsubscribe, basically, since I'm about to lose
computer access
for the next few months, and so I thought I'd send in
some kind of
goodbye post (as opposed to the "unsubscribe Beat-L" posts
that periodically
materialise) - it's been fascinating & lovely reading
all of your
stuff, good luck, take care. One other thing : I know the
continental US is
a big place, but if I get it together to make the
roadtrip I'm
planning & I see anyone who looks anything like any of you,
rest assured I'll
flag you down. "Men paint houses, drive cars, but they
are mad : men sit
in barbers' chairs, buy hats." - bukowski. Well,
whatever. Have a
good summer, everyone.
love,
Olly Ruff.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Survival of
the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
considered the
idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
Could the Doctor
have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
_______________________________________________________________________________
or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
skink@imrryr.org
_______________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:15:43 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: boy is my face red now.
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Content-Type:
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i think i got the
new rules of distribution all f*cked up agin.
private post sent
to list
list post sent to
etherlands
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:32:06 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: summer solstice
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Anybody out there
doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer
solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:36:26 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: summer solstice
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Anybody out
there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer
>
solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
i spent the night
at Denny's alternatively reading random pages from
literary outlaw,
education, yage, and lunch and scribbling notes about
early lsd use and
starting to thing about a long long long tale or
perhaps tail or
most probably both!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:58:48 -0700
Reply-To: Leon
Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: (no subject)
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Olly Ruff wrote:
- it's been fascinating & lovely reading
> all of your
stuff, good luck, take care.
You said it. I
mean it.
One other thing :
I know the
> continental
US is a big place, but if I get it together to make the
> roadtrip I'm
planning
Planning just
doesn't fit my view of you that I see, but then I am
looking like at a
painting on a museum wall loaded with echoes loud and
clear
& I see
anyone who looks anything like any of you,
> rest assured
I'll flag you down. "Men paint houses, drive cars, but they
> are mad :
men sit in barbers' chairs, buy hats." - bukowski.
At least not all
of them buy shoes. I will be looking down the barstools
for bare feet.
Well,
> whatever.
Have a good summer, everyone.
>
> love,
>
> Olly Ruff.
>
Yass, yass, yass,
everyone lets, you said it
_______________________________________________________________________________
>
>
"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever
> considered
the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."
> Could the
Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"
_________________________________________________________
>
>
or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk
> skink@imrryr.org
>
_________________________________________________________________________>
__He couldn't because he looked to the past,
did all he could with the tools of
the age of reason, he was *not* ahead of his
time.....
Leon__________________________
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:17:58 -0400
Reply-To: DawnDR@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: popularity
Just to be
annoying, I have to tell R. Bentz Kirby that the line "It was a
dark and stormy
night" -- appropriated by Snoopy and Mr. Coogler --- actually
comes from a
horrendously bad novel written by British author Edward
Bulwer-Lytton
---- I believe it is ZANONI (1842).
Bulwer--Lytton -- a
politician
(Member of Parliament) thought that he was a writer --- and tried
his hand at
several tales containing elements of the supernatural.
Dawn Sova
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 09:37:48 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: summer solstice
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
> >
> > Anybody
out there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer
> >
solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > --
> > Bentz
> >
bocelts@scsn.net
> >
> >
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
> i spent the
night at Denny's alternatively reading random pages from
> literary
outlaw, education, yage, and lunch and scribbling notes about
> early lsd
use and starting to thing about a long long long tale or
> perhaps tail
or most probably both!!!
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
Celebrating the
summer solstice? *grin* hmmm...Isn't this like Daisy in
the Great Gatsby,
in all her ennui glory, suggesting that they do
something for the
summer solstice...a party perhaps... *L* It just
reminded me of
that.... Anyhow...it will be a
loooooong day today
because of a
tennis tournament and the 100+ degree weather....
Apparently I'm
sacrificing my feet in honor of the occasion... Actually,
I did write a
poem incorporating the idea.... (but blistering feet is
much more
interesting than blistering rhetoric) Anyhow, enough of my
blithering.
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:42:49 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: summer solstice
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Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
> > >
> > >
Anybody out there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer
> > >
solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!
> > >
> > >
Peace,
> > >
> > > --
> > >
Bentz
> > >
bocelts@scsn.net
> > >
> > >
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
> >
> > i spent
the night at Denny's alternatively reading random pages from
> >
literary outlaw, education, yage, and lunch and scribbling notes about
> > early
lsd use and starting to thing about a long long long tale or
> > perhaps
tail or most probably both!!!
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > salina,
Kansas
>
> Celebrating
the summer solstice? *grin* hmmm...Isn't this like Daisy in
> the Great
Gatsby, in all her ennui glory, suggesting that they do
> something
for the summer solstice...a party perhaps... *L* It just
> reminded me
of that.... Anyhow...it will be a
loooooong day today
> because of a
tennis tournament and the 100+ degree weather....
> Apparently
I'm sacrificing my feet in honor of the occasion... Actually,
> I did write
a poem incorporating the idea.... (but blistering feet is
> much more
interesting than blistering rhetoric) Anyhow, enough of my
> blithering.
> Barb
i've been through
all that other summer solstice crap and i thought this
ritual made a LOT
more sense. but it is a matter of taste
i suppose as
with any ritual
celebration.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:58:02 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Zabriskie Point revised (Re: Oz and
Moon (non-Beat))
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970621132759.00bdee80@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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soundtrack for
zabriski point also by the grateful dead's own prophet mr.
jerome j. garcia.
in case ya'll didnt know.
derek
On Sat, 21 Jun
1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> DEAR
friends,
> the needed
to get off, Michelangelo Antonioni director,
> filmed
"Zabriskie Point" in 1970 as an itinerary of
> freedom
("Easy Ryder" was out before circa same period), &
> Michelangelo
Antonioni first did consciousness Pink Floyd,
> important
music.
> the scene of
explosion in ZP was commented by the
> Pink Floyd's
song "Careful with that Axe, Eugene", then
> Pink Floyd
goes in another further movies in years to come,
>
> ---
> yrs
> Rinaldo.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:59:52 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: [Fwd: Bad news coming, reach out, etc.]
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--------------5878CCA3EF1A3205051AC7AB
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I should have
posted this here for those who care about Pop Music.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------5878CCA3EF1A3205051AC7AB
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun
1997 11:36:36 -0400
From: "R.
Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
X-Mailer: Mozilla
4.0 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: hey joe
<hey-joe@inslab.uky.edu>, jerry jeff <jjw-l@io.com>
Subject: Bad news
coming, reach out, etc.
X-Priority: 3
(Normal)
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Well the bad news
keeps on coming on this first day of summer,
1997:
Lawrence Payton of Four
Tops
dies
June 20, 1997
Web posted at: 2:07 p.m.
EDT (1807
GMT)
DETROIT (AP) --
Lawrence Payton, an
original
member of legendary
Motown group the Four
Tops, died Friday. He was
59.
Payton died at his home
in
nearby Southfield, said
John
E. Anderson, manager of
McFall Brother's funeral
Home in Detroit, adding
that
he didn't know the cause
of death.
The Four Tops sold more
than 50 million
records. They made their
chart debut in 1964, at
No. 11, with "Baby I
Need Your Loving,"
following it up with such
hits as "I Can't
Help Myself"; "Reach Out
(I'll be There),"
which made it to No. 1 in
1966; and "I Can't Help
Myself (Sugar Pie, Honey
Bunch)."
The Four Tops were
together for more than
40 years.
In April, the Four Tops
got a star on the
Hollywood Walk of
Fame.
"These are four of
the
greatest people I have
ever
known. They were major
pros even before they
came
to Motown," Motown
founder Berry Gordy said
when the star was
unveiled.
In 1995, the Michigan
Travel
Bureau tapped the Tops
for
an advertising campaign.
Television viewers in
the Midwest were
treated to a revamped
version of the tune,
"I Can't Help Myself."
Funeral arrangements were
pending.
Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. All
rights reserved. This
material may not be
published, broadcast,
rewritten, or
redistributed.
My hat is over my
heart and a tear is in my eye. The Four
Tops were the
greatest
man. I liked them better than the
Temps. Everyone I know got
a chill when Levi
screamed "Bernadette" after the pause.
Keeper of Your
Castle was a song they did in the 70's when everyone else
was going me
first:
Living down (Let me down ??not sure)
There's a lot of
us been pushed around
Red Yellow Black
White and Brown
With a tear of
their own
Can't you see,
While you're
picking on society
That the leaves
of your family tree
Are calling you
to come back home
You're the keeper of the castle
So be a father to your children
The provider of all their daily needs
Like a soverign lord protector
Be their destiny's director
They'll do well to follow where you
lead
Oh, in your head,
You don't believe
what the good book said
You're gonna
strike out now instead
Cause the world's
been unkind
But through thick
and thin
Whatever shape
your heart is in
You're gonna have
next of kin
Better keep them
in mind
You're the keeper of your castle
So be a good man to your lady
A creator of the sunshine in her day
Tend the garden that you seeded
Be a friend when a friend is needed
You won't have to look the other way.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------5878CCA3EF1A3205051AC7AB--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:01:44 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: popularity
Comments: To:
DawnDR@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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Dawn B. Sova
wrote:
>
> Just to be
annoying, I have to tell R. Bentz Kirby that the line "It was a
> dark and
stormy night" -- appropriated by Snoopy and Mr. Coogler --- actually
> comes from a
horrendously bad novel written by British author Edward
>
Bulwer-Lytton ---- I believe it is ZANONI (1842). Bulwer--Lytton -- a
> politician
(Member of Parliament) thought that he was a writer --- and tried
> his hand at
several tales containing elements of the supernatural.
>
> Dawn Sova
Ok, Dawn, that
makes Coogler that much the worse, right? :-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 23:53:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cassady; Drugs
Even the Delanos
of the Roosevelt built an empire of clipper ships selliing
opium to China.
There is always a tactful denial of capitalistic empires and
the drug cartels
are probably working both sides of the fence. The invention
of the adding
machine was something a little different. It was clean money
coming from
inventions and not necessarily causing dispair. I suspect the
drug cartels are
using the international stock markets to clean money so fast
no one realizes
it. The ubrupt rise of the stock market
could only happen
with cartel
money.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 23:57:57 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: on this living thing
The rock is cold
on the outside and hot on the inside. I think that was Tao
or some chinese
poet philosopher going off in my head, but I can understand
the physics of
it. We could all preach to ourselves a
little more.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:01:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes
We published Lou
Reed's poetry in the Coldspring Journal we were doing in the
70s.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:01:56 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Burroughs
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Oh, Charles, I
did not mean to place the Burroughs company in with drug
cartels etc, just
to say that it is capitalism. I mean the
whole idea
of Microsoft is
to keep announcing new programs etc to keep the
"upgrade"
money coming in. Microsoft is the largest Junkie in the world
now and Bill
Gates is mainlineing big time. (What was
the name of that
group from
Chicago that released a song called Main line or Main vein).
NCR had that idea
long ago. IBM got left behind in the PC
industry
because it just
did not get the create your own cash cow idea.
There were the
oil barons, the rail road barons, the steel barons, and
many others who
used humans as fodder to create their empires, and we
all grin and look
the other way.
But to say the
adding machine was a drug is almost on point.
Once it
was found that
you could do with one human fodder and one Burroughs
machine what 10
or 15 humans could do, and with less errors, the service
and fast food
industry was just a couple of steps away.
And industry
was hooked, big
time. They moved on to computers,
robots, mainframes,
desktops, NC's,
and god knows what else. Run up another
computer dude.
Lay off some more
humans. Well, anyway, I agree that the
adding machine
brought to the
market a legitimate machine that was not like the "extra"
money you get
from avoiding the law, but it is all capitalism.
Folks we live in
a world and the US, if you live here, that throws our
children in jail
for smoking a hemp plant, but we subsidize, we the
taxpayers,
subsidize growing tobacco to kill ourselves.
What sickness
is this?
And on a side
note, I am not so sure that tobacco withour the tobacco
company additives
is that harmful. Maybe, but we will
never know.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:29:14 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Attila
There is a line
in my poem about Attila over the roof tops. The poem is
entitled Reba on
the SF beach Reba arriba arriba, etc. It's in the Forever
Wider section of
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
Was it you
Attila? Or was that you on the corner?
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:48:05 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs
Yeah, I see your
point. If its money the sytem will absord it at the top and
make the innocent
fools pay. There's hardly a way out when the picture
enlarges to catch
any lttle images that try to make light.
Oddly, I caught
what was supposed to be a gaf of Dole during the campaign
that tobbaco is
sometimes less harmful than milk. I think milk can be more
harmful to some
people, and that tobacco can be less harmful to some. Tobacco
is bad for me,
but I'm a fortunate type who can make myself sick on it and
then not touch
it. I attribute that to my Indian blood. I don't know if
that's correct or
not. But I do know that milk is very to some children.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:49:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs
Yeah, I see your
point. If its money the sytem will absord it at the top and
make the innocent
fools pay. There's hardly a way out when the picture
enlarges to catch
any lttle images that try to make light.
Oddly, I caught
what was supposed to be a gaf of Dole during the campaign
that tobbaco is
sometimes less harmful than milk. I think milk can be more
harmful to some
people, and that tobacco can be less harmful to some. Tobacco
is bad for me,
but I'm a fortunate type who can make myself sick on it and
then not touch
it. I attribute that to my Indian blood. I don't know if
that's correct or
not. But I do know that milk is very harmful to some
children.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:50:50 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: pale blue eyes
>Such a
wonderful mixture of wonderful lines and some pretty shakey ones
Well let's give
Lou a little more credit by fixing your mistake.
>She said
money is like us in time
>It lies but
can't stand up
>Count for you
is up.
COUNT for you is
up?
Ahem
DOWN for you is
up.
As you were
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:16:52 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: looking for sisyphus
In-Reply-To: <19970621113215.AAA29527@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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my mail keeps
bouncing back with some 'local error' reading.
ray, get in
touch, i have 2nd draft of poem to send you and want to plan an
outing to the
island in august, if possible.
sorry all, for
spam
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:59:55 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: forlorn rags of growing old
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Just finished
reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.
"...and
nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides
the forlorn rags
of growing old..." That line took
me back to something
that Gerald
Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that
"the
knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]
wrote."
Isn't the
knowledge that we are going to die the reason that any writer
writes? Isn't that the reason that we also grab onto
life, every moment
of life? What maybe affected me more was "...all
that road going, all
the people
dreaming in the immensity of it,..."
The way Kerouac said it,
it was a kinda a
great thing but a sad thing. The way I
see it, it's a
great thing and a
positive thing, because it is individual dreams that
pull people out
of dispair and what Kerouac came to see as the sadness of
America. Anyone out there got an feelings about this?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:42:35 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
In-Reply-To: <33ADCA8B.55F7@together.net>
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>Just finished
reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.
>"...and
nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides
>the forlorn
rags of growing old..." That line
took me back to something
>that Gerald
Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that
>"the
knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]
>wrote."
>
>Isn't the
knowledge that we are going to die the reason that any writer
>writes? Isn't that the reason that we also grab onto
life, every moment
>of life? What maybe affected me more was "...all
that road going, all
>the people
dreaming in the immensity of it,..."
The way Kerouac said it,
>it was a
kinda a great thing but a sad thing. The
way I see it, it's a
>great thing
and a positive thing, because it is individual dreams that
>pull people
out of dispair and what Kerouac came to see as the sadness of
>America. Anyone out there got an feelings about this?
>DC
yeah. the only
reason we do anything is because we know we're going to die.
i do think
Kerouac wrote and lived for this reason, and that is why his
book is so
powerful. all those suits working everyday in the city were
already dead or
chasing their own shadows (ginsberg's line) and Kerouac and
the beats
proposed a new way to live. On the Road that simply says that
they were always
going somewhere, not knowing where, but that was the way
to live, to just
keep going until you can't go anymore. Kerouac gave this
idea more life
and character than anyone else could in OTR.
-leo jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:51:00 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: popularity
Reply to message
from bocelts@SCSN.NET of Fri, 20 Jun
>local org
gives out the Coogler to the worst writing.
He was very
>popular. And Snoopy uses his most famous line:
>
>It was a dark
and stormy night.
What child's
sci-fi book also starts with this line??? :)
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:23:01 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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RACE --- wrote:
>=20
>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>=20
> > yeah.
the only reason we do anything is because we know we're going t=
o die.
>=20
> ok now that
2 folks have said this
> i'm going to
open my
> little soapbox
up and stand on it
> like a
preacher from the
> temple of
the Harvest Moon
> and teach
y'all a thing or two
> about
chickens
> and eggs
> and why we
do anything including writing
> it has much
less to do
> with the
fact that
> we're going
to die (supposedly - maybe/who knows - maybe we're already
> dead)
> BUT rather
> IT
> comes from
the common
> element
> that we were
> HATCHED !
>=20
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
i forgot to
put=20
in the first
place
at the end=20
of this.
thanks, david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:24:04 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: pale blue eyes
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> Malcolm
Lawrence wrote:
> >
> >
>Such a wonderful mixture of wonderful lines and some pretty shakey ones
> >
> > Well
let's give Lou a little more credit by fixing your mistake.
> >
> > >She
said money is like us in time
> > >It
lies but can't stand up
> >
>Count for you is up.
> >
> > COUNT
for you is up?
> >
> > Ahem
> >
> > DOWN
for you is up.
> >
> > As you
were
> >
> > Malcs
>
> Basie is up
and i am down and somewhere
> in between
> two children
swing on a playground
> dreaming
dreams
> that will be
new dreams
> twenty years
later
> when they're
still
> dreamers
> and neither
of their mother's
> ever
> understood
them a lick.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
this is what
talking to yourself looks like on a listserv....
bye bye
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:57:38 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: ketchup
Content-Type:
text
Hi everyone.
Been gone for a
couple of weeks on a brief vacation, so I'm a bit
behind on my
e-mail. However, I wanted to put my foot in the door
even at the risk
of stating something that someone else may have
already said
(I've still got about a week of e-mail that I'm behind
on) or in
dragging people back to a topic already discarded.
I was glad to see
the Eliot-Burroughs St. Louis connection mentioned
because Burroughs
uses allusions to Eliot repeatedly. Also interesting
about the
facsimile publications of both _Waste Land_ and _Howl_. Other
possibilities
too. I do not see how one can ignore the visionary qualities
in Eliot,
particularly _Waste Land_, _Ash Wednesday_, and _Four Quartets_,
and he certainly
touched the darkness of modern life; I would be hard-
pressed to try to
think of a poem more angst-driven than Prufrock. In fact,
his "I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons" seems to me to
capture exactly
what the Beats were determined to try to avoid happening
to their lives;
Prufrock knows what's wrong with his life, but he's too
chicken-shit to
do anything about it--and Eliot knows this. If you take
the opening of
_Waste Land_ and replace "cruelest" with "saddest" the
passage could
come from Kerouac. Think also of Kerouac's cat poems and
_Ol' Possums Book
of Practical Cats_; think of Eliot's Anglo-Catholicism
mixed with
eastern religion (the "Da" of the end of _Waste Land_) and Kerouac's
Catholicism mixed
with Buddhism.
Actually,
however, I'm not sure how Eliot even got in here. IMHO the greatest
poet of the 20th
century--and maybe of all time--was William Butler Yeats.
Heroin as a
preservative? Maybe Burroughs doesn't have to die: he's already
embalmed himself
while alive. I saw Iggy Pop earlier this month on the ROAR
tour: his energy
was incredible and simply blew away younger bands like Tonic
and Sponge. Catch
him if you can.
Writing on drugs:
often I feel that I create some of my best work stoned. The
problem is that
when I look at it again the next morning, I'm so embarrassed
that I can only
pray that I hadn't somehow shown it to anybody: Ginsberg's
"in the
morning were stanzas of gibberish." A Hallucination Dissertation
Manifesto of
Coca, Saturn, and Sun.
In terms of
epiphanies, in a letter to neal Cassady dated 27 June 1948,
Kerouac referred
to the Des Moines experience: You know that I have hitch-
hiked around and
have been alone in weird cities and places, and waked up in
the morning not
knowing who I was (particularly one time in Des Moines)"
(_Selected
Letters_ p. 155). Sometimes artists begin to see their lives
in symbolic
terms.
More later.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/22/97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:52:00 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Drugs & Spontaneity
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In response to
Mike Skau's:
> Writing on
drugs: often I feel that I create some of my best work stoned. The
> problem is
that when I look at it again the next morning, I'm so embarrassed
> that I can
only pray that I hadn't somehow shown it to anybody: Ginsberg's
> "in the
morning were stanzas of gibberish." A Hallucination Dissertation
> Manifesto of
Coca, Saturn, and Sun.
To paraphrase
Gary Snyder, he states that ("The Real Work" interviews)
if you write
*under the
influence* of psychedelics, it is as if you are entering the
cave and
*stopping* at the
first gold pieces, instead of experiencing the cave
for the cave,
reaching farther into the cave where the diamonds lie.
Writing is a form
of documentation, and if you are constantly
documenting, the
pure experience, the beauty of the trip is compromised.
It is more rewarding to write after the
fact - a little time for
contemplation -
understanding of the trip - Wordsworth writes: "poetry
is the
spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings [which is the trip] . .
. recollected in
tranquility" [after the trip].
This is a good issue for discussion.
Spontaneous writing . . . there is
definately a
value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
discipline of the
writing art form that the literature is perfected.
When the muse
erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
else to do but
document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
language that the
right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
then stream of
consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:58:25 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Rocks
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In response to
Charles Plymell's:
> The rock is
cold on the outside and hot on the inside. I think that was Tao
> or some
chinese poet philosopher going off in my head, but I can understand
> the physics
of it. We could all preach to ourselves
a little more.
They say if you
pray to a rock with enough devotion, it will live.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:53:02 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
In-Reply-To: <33ADA5C5.1D36@midusa.net>
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>RACE ---
wrote:
>>
>>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>>
>> >
yeah. the only reason we do anything is because we know we're going to
>>die.
>>
>> ok now
that 2 folks have said this
>> i'm
going to open my
>> little
soapbox up and stand on it
>> like a
preacher from the
>> temple
of the Harvest Moon
>> and
teach y'all a thing or two
>> about
chickens
>> and eggs
>> and why
we do anything including writing
>> it has
much less to do
>> with the
fact that
>> we're
going to die (supposedly - maybe/who knows - maybe we're already
>> dead)
>> BUT
rather
>> IT
>> comes
from the common
>> element
>> that we
were
>> HATCHED
!
>>
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
>
seems to me that
chickens do & die too, but let's not quibble. death,
birth, let's call
it all off.
"Lies! Lies!
Lies! I lie, you lie, we all lie!
There is no us,
there is no world, there is no universe,
there is no life,
no death, no nothing--all is meaningless,
and this too is a
lie--O damned 1959!" --Gregory Corso
-leo jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:02:54 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
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RACE --- wrote:
>
>
neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> >
> > In
response to Mike Skau's:
> >
> > >
Writing on drugs: often I feel that I create some of my best work stoned.
The
> > >
problem is that when I look at it again the next morning, I'm so
embarrassed
> > >
that I can only pray that I hadn't somehow shown it to anybody: Ginsberg's
> > >
"in the morning were stanzas of gibberish." A Hallucination
Dissertation
> > >
Manifesto of Coca, Saturn, and Sun.
> >
> > To
paraphrase Gary Snyder, he states that ("The Real Work" interviews)
> > if you
write
> > *under
the influence* of psychedelics, it is as if you are entering the
> > cave
and
> >
*stopping* at the first gold pieces, instead of experiencing the cave
> > for the
cave, reaching farther into the cave where the diamonds lie.
> > Writing
is a form of documentation, and if you are constantly
> >
documenting, the pure experience, the beauty of the trip is compromised.
> >
> > It is more rewarding to write after
the fact - a little time for
> >
contemplation - understanding of the trip - Wordsworth writes: "poetry
> > is the
spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings [which is the trip] . .
> > .
recollected in tranquility" [after the trip].
> >
> > This is a good issue for discussion.
Spontaneous writing . . . there
is
> > definately
a value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
> >
discipline of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
> > When
the muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
> > else to
do but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
> >
language that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
> > then
stream of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
> >
> > Joseph
Neudorfer
>
> First, seems
Mr. Snyder understood psychedlics about as well as a turtle
> on a road.
>
> Second,
layered writing allows the gold pieces and the diamond and the
> shadows on
the cave walls. anyone caught by a
couple damn metaphorical
> gold pieces
amidst the roar of the universe and the abyss in the mirror
> wasn't cut
out to do crap in the beginning.
shouldn't have let them
> near those
magic potions.
>
> Third,
stream of consciousness spontaneity is a vision and then one can
> go back with
to the same location and jump back in the stream with the
> distance of
(time, space, reflection, contemplation - pick your poison).
>
> Fourth, the
urge to burn it, the embarrassment that one might have shown
> something to
somebody is something i can relate to.
usually those are
> the one that
i find most exciting to jump back into after about six
> months. and sometimes some of it didn't make sense
... so just put some
> more
nonsense next to it and some folks will think you have these
> distorted
images in your brain and were able to write it down.
>
> Fifth,
typing under the influence is the same garbage as the whole
>
establishment drug mythology. we're all
under the influence. pick your
> poison - OJ
or Marlboro Reds.
>
> I now will
> pack up my
soap box
> feed my dog
> and my pony
> and head on
down
> the road
> and up the
third holler
> to my great
grandpa's grave on a misty
> morning as
the sun rises
> over the
mill of the
> true
> MUSE
> and i'll
shut my trap so y'all
> can figure
out what reality is at let me in on the secret.
>
> sincerely,
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
HEY RACE
you moron learn
how to mail the damn messages or stay off the
spaceship!!!!
yours truly,
race
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:09:00 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Rocks
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
> In response
to Charles Plymell's:
>
> > The
rock is cold on the outside and hot on the inside. I think that was Tao
> > or some
chinese poet philosopher going off in my head, but I can understand
> > the
physics of it. We could all preach to
ourselves a little more.
>
> They say if
you pray to a rock with enough devotion, it will live.
> Joseph
Neudorfer
who is they - the
rocks???? i bet they pass a nice collection plate to
you too! sounds like cheap con blackmail to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:14:27 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> >RACE ---
wrote:
> >>
> >>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
> >>
> >>
> yeah. the only reason we do anything is because we know we're goin=
g to
> >>die.
> >>
> >> ok
now that 2 folks have said this
> >> i'm
going to open my
> >>
little soapbox up and stand on it
> >>
like a preacher from the
> >>
temple of the Harvest Moon
> >> and
teach y'all a thing or two
> >>
about chickens
> >> and
eggs
> >> and
why we do anything including writing
> >> it
has much less to do
> >>
with the fact that
> >>
we're going to die (supposedly - maybe/who knows - maybe we're alrea=
dy
> >>
dead)
> >> BUT
rather
> >> IT
> >>
comes from the common
> >>
element
> >>
that we were
> >>
HATCHED !
> >>
> >>
david rhaesa
> >>
salina, Kansas
> >
> seems to me
that chickens do & die too, but let's not quibble. death,
> birth, let's
call it all off.
>=20
> "Lies!
Lies! Lies! I lie, you lie, we all lie!
> There is no
us, there is no world, there is no universe,
> there is no
life, no death, no nothing--all is meaningless,
> and this too
is a lie--O damned 1959!" --Gregory Corso
>=20
> -leo jilk
this corso guy
sounds interesting. i've always doubted
that much was
around
pre-1960. all a lie, a dream, a pair of
spiders tangoing in a
great Snake
ritual or whatever but i am here and i imagine you're there
and we're both in
this cyber-reality and so i ain't sure a lie is a lie
at all and i
don't even really know what a lie is ...=20
what is a
lie? now that's one for the final
exam! i bet that's the
first question on
the post-death exam....
1) what is a lie?
2) why are you here?
short answers
only ....
grades will be
distributed by secret committee of saints and angels and
if you're real
lucky you may hear from us or get on a wait-list.
otherwise ...
hell,
recincarnation ain't bad. maybe you can
be a rock next time and
get people to
pray to you.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:01:07 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
> >
> > >
> seems to me that chickens do & die too, but let's not quibble. de=
ath,
> > birth,
let's call it all off.
> >
> >
"Lies! Lies! Lies! I lie, you lie, we all lie!
> > There
is no us, there is no world, there is no universe,
> > there
is no life, no death, no nothing--all is meaningless,
> > and
this too is a lie--O damned 1959!" --Gregory Corso
> >
> > -leo
jilk
> RACE ---
wrote:
> this corso
guy sounds interesting. i've always
doubted that much was
> around
pre-1960. all a lie, a dream, a pair of
spiders tangoing in a
> great Snake
ritual or whatever but i am here and i imagine you're there
> and we're
both in this cyber-reality and so i ain't sure a lie is a lie
> at all and i
don't even really know what a lie is ...
>=20
> what is a
lie? now that's one for the final
exam! i bet that's the
> first
question on the post-death exam....
>=20
> 1) what is a lie?
>=20
> 2) why are you here?
>=20
> short
answers only ....
>=20
> grades will
be distributed by secret committee of saints and angels and
> if you're
real lucky you may hear from us or get on a wait-list.
>=20
> otherwise
...
> hell,
recincarnation ain't bad. maybe you can
be a rock next time and
> get people
to pray to you.
>=20
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
Sorry, guys, but
all this talk of birth and eggs and reincarnation made=20
me go entirely
out of the beat universe, to this quote from Wordsworth,
"Our birth
is but a sleep and a forgetting:=20
The Soul that
rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:13:04 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
In-Reply-To: <33ADCDF3.4E0D@midusa.net>
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RACE --- wrote:
>Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>>
>> >RACE
--- wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
> yeah. the only reason we do anything is because we know we're going =
to
>>
>>die.
>> >>
>> >>
ok now that 2 folks have said this
>> >>
i'm going to open my
>> >>
little soapbox up and stand on it
>> >>
like a preacher from the
>> >>
temple of the Harvest Moon
>> >>
and teach y'all a thing or two
>> >>
about chickens
>> >>
and eggs
>> >>
and why we do anything including writing
>> >>
it has much less to do
>> >>
with the fact that
>> >>
we're going to die (supposedly - maybe/who knows - maybe we're already
>> >>
dead)
>> >>
BUT rather
>> >>
IT
>> >>
comes from the common
>> >>
element
>> >>
that we were
>> >>
HATCHED !
>> >>
>> >>
david rhaesa
>> >>
salina, Kansas
>> >
>> seems to
me that chickens do & die too, but let's not quibble. death,
>> birth,
let's call it all off.
>>
>>
"Lies! Lies! Lies! I lie, you lie, we all lie!
>> There is
no us, there is no world, there is no universe,
>> there is
no life, no death, no nothing--all is meaningless,
>> and this
too is a lie--O damned 1959!" --Gregory Corso
>>
>> -leo
jilk
>
>this corso guy
sounds interesting. i've always doubted
that much was
>around
pre-1960.
that is actually
quite amusing.
all a lie, a dream, a pair of spiders tangoing
in a
>great Snake
ritual or whatever but i am here and i imagine you're there
>and we're both
in this cyber-reality and so i ain't sure a lie is a lie
>at all and i
don't even really know what a lie is ...
i always get the
same response when i send that to people. the last person
simply wrote
back, "i don't believe you."
>
>what is a lie? now that's one for the final exam! i bet that's the
>first
question on the post-death exam....
>
>1) what is a lie?
>
>2) why are you here?
>
>short answers
only ....
>
>grades will
be distributed by secret committee of saints and angels and
>if you're
real lucky you may hear from us or get on a wait-list.
>
>otherwise ...
>hell,
recincarnation ain't bad. maybe you can
be a rock next time and
>get people to
pray to you.
>
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
there has got to
be some kind of objective definition for the word LIE.
Imagine a beach
full of men, swirling and being swirled in pools of water
where some drown
and others are eaten alive, others devoured from inside,
others retarded
or proud, aiming for the sea with their ugly bug eyes
extended mean
toward the whole ocean, or something small within a grain of
salt inside it.
The system is closed. That is all there is and all there
ever shall be
until another day or another group of words, or some foreign
color comes along
and sweeps the shore clean of all living creatures for a
time, or perhaps
once and for all. That is man's place in the world, which
is no more or
less important than it ever seemed to anyone with blinders on
to a painful
picture, a tragic scene. Imagine the calm of the ocean on that
day when the last
wave crashes and the ocean lies calm, the shore barren
and dry. Imagine
the impossible serenity of being alive on that day.
Nothing lasts
forever, and to chiming of this truth-bell comes clamoring
life, a history
of what has held together, man, gods and all only a part, a
day at the ocean,
almost certainly not the last day the ocean will see or
the last ocean
time will contain. There man sits, a lonely little black
mudskipper, with
those curious eyes on the side of its head imbedded in
hide, at once
endearing and infinitely disgusting, moulding itself to the
things of its
sand, its one world, both a hell and a heaven, a microcosmic
embodiment of all
existence which lies around it far or distant, in the
scene of the
colors, the scene of all the strivings and failures of men,
and all of the
strivings and failures that will be.
-leo jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:26:32 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> RACE ---
wrote:
>=20
>
>Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
> >>
> >>
>RACE --- wrote:
> >>
>>
> >>
>> Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
> >>
>>
> >>
>> > yeah. the only reason we do anything is because we know we're g=
oing to
> >>
>>die.
> >>
>>
> >>
>> ok now that 2 folks have said this
> >>
>> i'm going to open my
> >>
>> little soapbox up and stand on it
> >>
>> like a preacher from the
> >>
>> temple of the Harvest Moon
> >>
>> and teach y'all a thing or two
> >>
>> about chickens
> >>
>> and eggs
> >>
>> and why we do anything including writing
> >>
>> it has much less to do
> >>
>> with the fact that
> >>
>> we're going to die (supposedly - maybe/who knows - maybe we're al=
ready
> >>
>> dead)
> >>
>> BUT rather
> >>
>> IT
> >>
>> comes from the common
> >>
>> element
> >>
>> that we were
> >>
>> HATCHED !
> >>
>>
> >>
>> david rhaesa
> >>
>> salina, Kansas
> >>
>
> >>
seems to me that chickens do & die too, but let's not quibble. death=
,
> >>
birth, let's call it all off.
> >>
> >>
"Lies! Lies! Lies! I lie, you lie, we all lie!
> >>
There is no us, there is no world, there is no universe,
> >>
there is no life, no death, no nothing--all is meaningless,
> >> and
this too is a lie--O damned 1959!" --Gregory Corso
> >>
> >>
-leo jilk
> >
> >this
corso guy sounds interesting. i've
always doubted that much was
> >around
pre-1960.
>=20
> that is
actually quite amusing.
>=20
> all a lie, a dream, a pair of spiders
tangoing in a
> >great
Snake ritual or whatever but i am here and i imagine you're ther=
e
> >and
we're both in this cyber-reality and so i ain't sure a lie is a li=
e
> >at all
and i don't even really know what a lie is ...
>=20
> i always get
the same response when i send that to people. the last per=
son
> simply wrote
back, "i don't believe you."
>=20
> >
> >what is
a lie? now that's one for the final
exam! i bet that's the
> >first
question on the post-death exam....
> >
> >1) what is a lie?
> >
> >2) why are you here?
> >
> >short
answers only ....
> >
> >grades
will be distributed by secret committee of saints and angels an=
d
> >if
you're real lucky you may hear from us or get on a wait-list.
> >
>
>otherwise ...
> >hell,
recincarnation ain't bad. maybe you can
be a rock next time and
> >get
people to pray to you.
> >
> >
> >david
rhaesa
> >salina,
Kansas
>=20
> there has
got to be some kind of objective definition for the word LIE.
> Imagine a
beach full of men, swirling and being swirled in pools of wat=
er
> where some
drown and others are eaten alive, others devoured from insid=
e,
> others
retarded or proud, aiming for the sea with their ugly bug eyes
> extended
mean toward the whole ocean, or something small within a grain=
of
> salt inside
it. The system is closed. That is all there is and all ther=
e
> ever shall
be until another day or another group of words, or some fore=
ign
> color comes
along and sweeps the shore clean of all living creatures fo=
r a
> time, or
perhaps once and for all. That is man's place in the world, wh=
ich
> is no more
or less important than it ever seemed to anyone with blinder=
s on
> to a painful
picture, a tragic scene. Imagine the calm of the ocean on =
that
> day when the
last wave crashes and the ocean lies calm, the shore barre=
n
> and dry.
Imagine the impossible serenity of being alive on that day.
> Nothing
lasts forever, and to chiming of this truth-bell comes clamorin=
g
> life, a
history of what has held together, man, gods and all only a par=
t, a
> day at the
ocean, almost certainly not the last day the ocean will see =
or
> the last
ocean time will contain. There man sits, a lonely little black
> mudskipper,
with those curious eyes on the side of its head imbedded in
> hide, at
once endearing and infinitely disgusting, moulding itself to t=
he
> things of
its sand, its one world, both a hell and a heaven, a microcos=
mic
> embodiment
of all existence which lies around it far or distant, in the
> scene of the
colors, the scene of all the strivings and failures of men=
,
> and all of
the strivings and failures that will be.
>=20
> -leo jilk
interesting
answer. the Committee will consider it
and send you the
Committee's
decision on the appropriate response to your answer.
sincerely,
the Commmittee
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. i wasn't joking about Corso. he sounds like an interesting guy
and someone it
would be good to hang out with (at least once or twice).=20
i don't know that
he or anyone else deserves to be quoted chapter and
verse like saint
paul the skip tracer or something.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:04:50 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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>Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> there has
got to be some kind of objective definition for the word LIE.
> Imagine a
beach full of men, swirling and being swirled in pools of wat=
er
> where some
drown and others are eaten alive, others devoured from insid=
e,
> others
retarded or proud, aiming for the sea with their ugly bug eyes
> extended
mean toward the whole ocean, or something small within a grain=
of
> salt inside
it. The system is closed. That is all there is and all ther=
e
> ever shall
be until another day or another group of words, or some fore=
ign
> color comes
along and sweeps the shore clean of all living creatures fo=
r a
> time, or
perhaps once and for all. That is man's place in the world, wh=
ich
> is no more
or less important than it ever seemed to anyone with blinder=
s on
> to a painful
picture, a tragic scene. Imagine the calm of the ocean on =
that
> day when the
last wave crashes and the ocean lies calm, the shore barre=
n
> and dry.
Imagine the impossible serenity of being alive on that day.
> Nothing
lasts forever, and to chiming of this truth-bell comes clamorin=
g
> life, a
history of what has held together, man, gods and all only a par=
t, a
> day at the
ocean, almost certainly not the last day the ocean will see =
or
> the last
ocean time will contain. There man sits, a lonely little black
> mudskipper,
with those curious eyes on the side of its head imbedded in
> hide, at
once endearing and infinitely disgusting, moulding itself to t=
he
> things of
its sand, its one world, both a hell and a heaven, a microcos=
mic
> embodiment
of all existence which lies around it far or distant, in the
> scene of the
colors, the scene of all the strivings and failures of men=
,
> and all of
the strivings and failures that will be.
>=20
> -leo jilk
Are you saying
that LIE and IT are the same thing?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:47:48 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
In-Reply-To: <33ADCA8B.55F7@together.net>
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At 5:59 PM -0700
6/22/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> Anyone out
there got an feelings about this?
just pulled in
from a trip to LA. gave myself over to a
woman who took me
walking, took me
swimming, gave me food and water. The
warm air, the beer,
the gentle times,
her companionship sure gave my mind an ease.
For the 125
odd miles home I
sustained a centered soul. sustaining is
not the word.
my whispers were
heard and I was sustained. thank you T,
and hallelujah to
the rest.
please god, do
not let me grow old alone.
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:45:57 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
In-Reply-To: <33AE2012.1416@together.net>
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>>Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>>
>> there
has got to be some kind of objective definition for the word LIE.
>> Imagine
a beach full of men, swirling and being swirled in pools of water
>> where
some drown and others are eaten alive, others devoured from inside,
>> others
retarded or proud, aiming for the sea with their ugly bug eyes
>> extended
mean toward the whole ocean, or something small within a grain o=
f
>> salt
inside it. The system is closed. That is all there is and all there
>> ever
shall be until another day or another group of words, or some foreig=
n
>> color
comes along and sweeps the shore clean of all living creatures for =
a
>> time, or
perhaps once and for all. That is man's place in the world, whic=
h
>> is no
more or less important than it ever seemed to anyone with blinders =
on
>> to a
painful picture, a tragic scene. Imagine the calm of the ocean on th=
at
>> day when
the last wave crashes and the ocean lies calm, the shore barren
>> and dry.
Imagine the impossible serenity of being alive on that day.
>> Nothing
lasts forever, and to chiming of this truth-bell comes clamoring
>> life, a
history of what has held together, man, gods and all only a part,=
a
>> day at
the ocean, almost certainly not the last day the ocean will see or
>> the last
ocean time will contain. There man sits, a lonely little black
>>
mudskipper, with those curious eyes on the side of its head imbedded in
>> hide, at
once endearing and infinitely disgusting, moulding itself to the
>> things
of its sand, its one world, both a hell and a heaven, a microcosmi=
c
>>
embodiment of all existence which lies around it far or distant, in the
>> scene of
the colors, the scene of all the strivings and failures of men,
>> and all
of the strivings and failures that will be.
>>
>> -leo
jilk
>
>
>Are you
saying that LIE and IT are the same thing?
>DC
well...they could
be. actually, i did not intend them to be the same thing.
in fact, i can't
guarantee that anything in my post had too much to do with
the word lie. i
was just letting my mind roam for a moment.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:57:22 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: forlorn rags of getting old -- or, we're
all bozos on this bus
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Race:
I think that all
responses should be submitted in the form of a
question. From there we could submit them to the
President and see if
he can give us an
answered. Once I asked him where I could
get a job,
down here on
Dutch Elm Street, and he said that he had discussed this
with the leaders
of business and that in the Future, they will not have
to answer
questions like that anymore. Then this
clown, Clem, he came
along and asked
the President something like, "Why does a JUJU bird lay
its eggs in the
air", and it broke the President.
But the Future farie
is still there,
so the President must be working again.
Any ways, could
you state that as
a question please.
(With my humble
apologies to Firesign Theater)I am,
Very truly there,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:38:31 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of getting old -- or,
we're all bozos on this bus
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Race:
>
> I think that
all responses should be submitted in the form of a
>
question. From there we could submit
them to the President and see if
> he can give
us an answered. Once I asked him where I
could get a job,
> down here on
Dutch Elm Street, and he said that he had discussed this
> with the
leaders of business and that in the Future, they will not have
> to answer
questions like that anymore. Then this
clown, Clem, he came
> along and
asked the President something like, "Why does a JUJU bird lay
> its eggs in
the air", and it broke the President.
But the Future farie
> is still
there, so the President must be working again.
Any ways, could
> you state
that as a question please.
>
> (With my
humble apologies to Firesign Theater)I am,
>
> Very truly
there,
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
I assume that you
mean the honourable President Dwight David
Eisenhower. went to that man's funeral. it was a fake. he's still
alive running
around these parts ... on a dark and stormy night you can
see Ike walking
his beagle down the Santa Fe Trail and Festus is too
drunk to notice
that the Beagle is carrying a typewriter and looks just
a bit like a
canine version of burroughs.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:41:43 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>=20
>
>Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
> >
> > there
has got to be some kind of objective definition for the word LI=
E.
> > Imagine
a beach full of men, swirling and being swirled in pools of w=
ater
> > where
some drown and others are eaten alive, others devoured from ins=
ide,
> > others
retarded or proud, aiming for the sea with their ugly bug eyes
> >
extended mean toward the whole ocean, or something small within a gra=
in of
> > salt
inside it. The system is closed. That is all there is and all th=
ere
> > ever
shall be until another day or another group of words, or some fo=
reign
> > color
comes along and sweeps the shore clean of all living creatures =
for a
> > time,
or perhaps once and for all. That is man's place in the world, =
which
> > is no
more or less important than it ever seemed to anyone with blind=
ers on
> > to a
painful picture, a tragic scene. Imagine the calm of the ocean o=
n that
> > day
when the last wave crashes and the ocean lies calm, the shore bar=
ren
> > and
dry. Imagine the impossible serenity of being alive on that day.
> > Nothing
lasts forever, and to chiming of this truth-bell comes clamor=
ing
> > life, a
history of what has held together, man, gods and all only a p=
art, a
> > day at
the ocean, almost certainly not the last day the ocean will se=
e or
> > the
last ocean time will contain. There man sits, a lonely little bla=
ck
> >
mudskipper, with those curious eyes on the side of its head imbedded =
in
> > hide,
at once endearing and infinitely disgusting, moulding itself to=
the
> > things
of its sand, its one world, both a hell and a heaven, a microc=
osmic
> >
embodiment of all existence which lies around it far or distant, in t=
he
> > scene
of the colors, the scene of all the strivings and failures of m=
en,
> > and all
of the strivings and failures that will be.
> >
> > -leo
jilk
>=20
> Are you
saying that LIE and IT are the same thing?
> DC
LIE + IT =3D
LIGHT
if LIE =3D IT
then=20
LIE + LIE =3D
LIGHT
white lie yes it computes.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:54:48 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
> i can't guarantee that anything in my post
had too much to do with
> the word
lie.=20
> -leo
hmmm. the
Committee will take this into consideration in evaluating
the Committee
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:31:37 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Various Notes,
Rhymes & More [actually the
title from one of my poems]
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In response to
David Rhaesa's:
> . . . typing
under the influence is the same garbage as the whole
>
establishment drug mythology. we're all
under the influence. pick your
> poison - OJ
or Marlboro Reds.
> I now will
> pack up my
soap box
> feed my dog
> and my pony
> and head on
down
> the road
> and up the
third holler
> to my great
grandpa's grave on a misty
> morning as
the sun rises
> over the
mill of the
> true
> MUSE
> and i'll
shut my trap so y'all
> can figure
out what reality is at let me in on the secret.
It's too bad you
believe that "we're all under the influence" even when
the individual is
sober from the commonly accepted substances. Religion
can be argued to
be a substance, there's really no right / wrong answer.
In my view, drugs
in no way create, it is still the artist creating,
albeit in an
altered state - they can be seen as a short cut =
spiritually,
artistically, etc (if you believe in that logic).
With respects to
your poem:
> i now will
> pack up my soap box'
I have read 'soap
box' quite often on this list. We must get rid of this
notion.
> to my great grandpa's grave on a
misty
> morning as the sun rises'
Nice image.
"on a misty / morning" - why does this have to be broken up
in two lines, it
is the word combination that creates the image. Maybe:
to my great grandpa's grave
on a misty morning
as the sun rises
= 3 images, 3
lines
I guess the form
of the poem you wrote is free verse. Anybody read
Charles Olson's
"Projective Verse" essay?
With respects to
Gregory Corso, here's a poem I wrote a while back:
Everyday Tuesday
Returning home early from date
unlucky.
David greets me with
second-hand Corso book o poetry
despite first-hand tales of
being asshole.
Real night to begin in basement
with William Carlos Williams
and fresh translation Tao Te
Ching.
Sudden phone call
from Latino pal in jail
for touching wrong woman
in wrong place
at wrong time
who to believe
pleading innocent.
Court case tuesday next.
[Just in case,
'David' is my twin brother]
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:40:51 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> >
> > I
reread Howl this afternoon...and I think not so much that it is
> >
misunderstood as suffering from a very specialized and narrow
> >
audience. I read it and
thought.....period piece...I don't think it
> > will
transcend time... Usually people can empathsize and relate to
> >
another's emotional trauma...but it is very difficult to connect to
> >
Ginsberg in Howl. I do have an
appreciation for the poem...he does
> > convey
some stunning ideas and displays verbal dexterity and wit...... I
> > feel as
if people who can relate, would really hoist this poem as the
> > icon of
the the time and/ or experience...it would be ...the emblem poem
> > that it
is.. But as a reader, I'm an outsider,
gawking and
> >
rubber-necking a tragedy I can only witness from afar and listen to the
> > howling
without ever wanting to howl myself.
> > Barb
>
> Barb,
>
> Howl, as
well as the rest of the poetry of Ginsberg, will stand the test
> of
time. You and I obviously come from very
different experiences. When
> I first
discovered Howl, it literally saved my life.
It was not until he
> died and I
read the hundreds of memorials posted on various web pages
> that I saw
in writing what I had known intellectually all along. That he
> truly
touched the souls of masses of people, many whom would not be alive
> today if his
words had not given them the freedom and power to be
>
themselves. And beyond that, to write of
themselves. Not only do I
> identify
with Howl, although I wasn't born until the fifies, I knew that
> it marked
the beginning of a time when poetry would no longer be the same
> again. It marked a time when no longer would the
same limits be placed
> on thought
or the poetry that came from that thought.
In his incredible
> body of
work, of which Howl is just the cornerstone, Ginsberg gave us a
> new
definition of how humanness, every little speck of humanness, could
> indeed be
poetic. He also spoke of America, an
imperfect America, and
> how it is
necessary for poets to address the culture which is at their
> feet. But the big thing about Ginsberg is that he
was remained positive
> in
addressing the darkness of the mind and what he saw as the darkness of
>
America. While he pointed the the dusty,
rotting imageless locomotives,
> he also
pointed to the sunflower of the soul.
>
> I cannot
understand how you cannot relate to the emotional trauma of
> Howl! How can you possibly not want to howl
yourself? Life is a howl.
> I would urge
you to start to howl. Find it inside of
yourself.
> The rhythm
of Ginsberg's poetry is the rhythm of life in America today.
> When you say
that "I think that Howl and many of his major works...are
> limited, and
honestly will end up, not as the major voice of the 20th c.,
> but a voice
of a period for a particular subsect of the population," I
> have to
wonder how much of Ginsberg you have read.
He was a major voice
> in the
twentieth century but he obviously did not take poetry in the
> direction
you want it to go.
>
> You are
reading beat literature but you don't really see it as enduring.
> Only time will tell. I for one think it will.
But for that to happen
> beat
literature has to keep being published, being taught in schools and
> colleges all
over this country equally, so that people continue to read
> it, and
whole new generations of writers develop their own voices from
> the
influences of the beats.
>
> I seriously
want to know what path your line of thought takes in terms of
> twentieth
century poetry. You mentioned, "I
am awed by Plath, Sexton,
> Rich,
Bishop, Levertov, Walker...Women with strong voices, writing on
> issues that
concern not only women, but humanity."
What did these women
> say that
inspired you in a way that Ginsberg does not?
The confessional
> mode of
writing is a uniquely twentieth century development but although
> Plath and
Sexton got their concerns out in words, it did not, could not,
> save their
own lives. I don't think that their
writing will stand the
> test of
time. Do you?
> DC
About the women
standing the test of time...you or someone had asked
what was the most
significant development/work of the 20th C....I think
that the voices
as a whole is the most significant development...
Perhaps as
individuals they may not endure...but they spoke up and wrote
from a
perspective that had been long neglected.
I see it as the most
significant
development...because I project that women will dominate
literature in the
21st C.... at least in America.
As for literature
saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
purpose. I have never read literature, or chosen
literature, on that
basis. My life has not needed saving...and I'm not
sure a poet is the
one for the job
if it were the case. I'm actually not
even concerned
about literature
as therapy. I am much more concerned
with the
expression of
ideas and how well ideas conveyed
through
devices/technique. A good idea should be expressed in a way that
is
beyond compare...perfectly
suited... an astounding synthesis of
sound
and meaning .
As for
howling....no thank you. At times I do
feel the need to applaud
and cheer... but
howl, no. If I don't like my life or
situation, I do
something to
change it. And...we are from different
worlds....I've
always been very
lucky in many aspects. I've attended great schools,
always had
diverse interests...extremely active in dance and
sports....and if
I want to get high...I run in the desert or push
physical
endurance somehow. I do not glamourize
drug use nor condone it
in any
fashion. I honestly think the beats were
great
experimenters...and
some truly were on quests, but their lives are
tragic as a
whole. (and where many thought they had
attained
enlightenment...or
epiphanies...they were just spewing the frazzled
synaptic mishaps
of an overdose... It does NOT make for great art. When
I read poetry
where the poet is obviously wacked, I think "junk"
...not
revolutionary, novel, genius driven art)
Ok *grin*...everyone
jump on me
now.....
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:17:07 +1100
Reply-To: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Duncan Gray
<duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>
Subject: the last time i committed suicide.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The character
Keanu plays, called Harry is, as far as I can tell, not
totally based on
one real person. At the end of the movie
Harry convinces
Neal to drink
with him. This is what Neal's step
brother did in the "great
sex letter"
(The one that starts off "To have seen a specter isn't
everything..) At the beginning of the movie Harry is as you
described,
Neal's pool
buddy.
Duncan
<Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:53:39 +0800
From: Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: the last
time i committed suicide.
hi, in the 'last
time i committed suicide' (the one abt neal), who does
keanu reeves
portray?
it says in my
local mag that keanu plays the 'buddy he (neal) hangs out
with, drinking
beer, shooting pool." who's that?
thanks a lot.
btw, is it worth watching?>
s.*
------------------------------------------------------------------.o0
Duncan Gray
Stored Grain
Research Laboratory
CSIRO Entomology,
GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601
Ph. (06) 246
4178 Fax (06) 246 4202
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:42:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To: <33AD8260.307C@discovland.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This is a good
issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
definately a
value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
discipline of the
writing art form that the literature is perfected.
When the muse
erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
else to do but
document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
language that the
right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
then stream of
consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
________
this is exactly
what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
due to having a
somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
also as one who
has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
of perception, i
write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
all the memories,
first in prose
then in verse
again again again
rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
of the cracks in the eternal sidewalk, etc etc
also have found a
wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
to protect her
from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:43:01 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: corso(was lies, againg, and all that
existential angst)
In-Reply-To: <33AE2012.1416@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
someone somewhere
in the endless scrolled message on this topic of
lies/aging etc
said that he
wanted to know more about this 'corso guy' who is a poet who
at times dons the
gonzo poet cap just as HST is gonzo journalism. i highly
recommend _elegiac
feelings american_ to you, also, my favorite poem about
marriage
and, in meantime
here is a more reflective corso piece:
HELLO
it is disastrous
to be a wounded deer.
i'm the most
wounded, wolves stalk,
and i have my
failures, too.
my flesh is
caught on the inevitable hook!
as i child i saw
many things i did not want to be.
Am i the person i
did not want to be?
that
talks-to-himself person?
that - neighbours
make-fun-of person?
am i he who, on
museum steps, sleeps on his side?
do i wear the
cloth of a man who has failed?
am i the looney
man?
in the great
serenade of things,
am i the most cancelled passage?
_______
pome from elegaic
feelings:
TWO WEATHER VANES
On the very top
of St. Chapel there is a gold chicken
And next to it,
on the point of a cone tower, there's a black
boat-
Whenever the wind
sails the boat toward the chicken
Clouds crash, and
it rains, snows
And fogs, chimney
pots, steeples, gargoyles sag like honey
-Hooray! In fact
all Paris
looks like a dropped plate of lumpy oatmeal
______
happy trails to
you
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:51:00 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
In-Reply-To: <l03020901afd3a13e7879@[198.5.212.63]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
(apologies in
advance if this had already been posted to list, sometimes
this list feels
like i'm playing jeopardy, to hit the send button (buzzer)
before the next
member)
I grow old...I grow old...
I shall wear the
bottoms of my trousers rolled,
Shall I part my
hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear
white flannel trousers, and walk upon the
beach
I have heard the
mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think
they will sing to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:23:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> This is a
good issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
> definately a
value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
> discipline
of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
> When the
muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
> else to do
but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
> language
that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
> then stream
of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
> ________
> this is
exactly what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
> due to
having a somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
> also as one
who has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
> of
perception, i write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
> all the
memories,
> first in
prose
> then in
verse
> again again
again rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
> of the cracks in the eternal sidewalk, etc etc
> also have
found a wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
> to protect
her from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
> mc
it seems that the
bursting muse does not pay much attention to linear
time. if one spontaneously writes in one sitting
about a
phenomenological
event, it will appear as only a glance and not the full
spectacle of
whatever it is. another layer of
spontaneity within and
around the
original produces additional glances. it
is never possible
to present the
spectacle to the reader but more layers connected to the
muse will
certainly make the event appear far more present. for me the
editing is
primarily adding more flowers in the garden.
the pruning is
more like picking
nose hairs.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. Salina
Journal has a nice piece about Ginsberg tribute in LA this
morning nice big
picture of Anne Waldman and some basic information. i
imagine i'll
write and add a few tidbits. it might be
nice for Salina
to know that more
than just one tribute has happened since April.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:36:02 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
Comments: To:
danneman@update.uu.se
In a message
dated 97-06-21 06:46:57 EDT, you write:
<<
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> I myself am a whopping 21, and I am
soooooo pissed off about all the stuff
> I missed for being born so late!!!!
Anybody else in the same predicament?
I am 23 and yes I am pissed, thinking about
all that I missed. I'm also
annoyed being born so early. Imagine what I
won't see in the future.
Still I wouldn't like to see myself in the mirror
at the age of 200. I'd
be reeeally ugly. So all things considered,
I'm happy.
-daniel
>>
I don't get
it. I sed i was 22 before, but i don't
feel like i should have
been born earlier
or later. I feel JUST right. I guess knowing that i was a
gangsta chick in
1940's Chicago in my previous life helps.
I didn't miss a
thing. It's all happening NOW as far as i'm
concerned. Sara---just think,
in a few years,
you'll be saggy and wrinkly so enjoy yerself now, while you
can still get
some!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:37:41 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33AE6ABB.7429@midusa.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:23 AM 6/23/97
-0500, RACE --- wrote:
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>>
>> This is
a good issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
>>
definately a value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
>>
discipline of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
>> When the
muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
>> else to
do but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
>> language
that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
>> then
stream of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
>> ________
>> this is
exactly what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
>> due to
having a somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
>> also as
one who has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
>> of
perception, i write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
>> all the
memories,
>> first in
prose
>> then in
verse
>> again
again again rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
>> of
the cracks in the eternal sidewalk, etc
etc
>> also
have found a wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
>> to
protect her from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
>> mc
>
>it seems that
the bursting muse does not pay much attention to linear
>time. if one spontaneously writes in one sitting
about a
>phenomenological
event, it will appear as only a glance and not the full
>spectacle of
whatever it is. another layer of
spontaneity within and
>around the
original produces additional glances. it
is never possible
>to present
the spectacle to the reader but more layers connected to the
>muse will
certainly make the event appear far more present. for me the
>editing is
primarily adding more flowers in the garden.
the pruning is
>more like
picking nose hairs.
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>p.s. Salina
Journal has a nice piece about Ginsberg tribute in LA this
>morning nice
big picture of Anne Waldman and some basic information. i
>imagine i'll
write and add a few tidbits. it might be
nice for Salina
>to know that
more than just one tribute has happened since April.
Some of us can
"trip" on our own body chemistry. Speaking from experience,
that sort of
spontanaeity is better than that obtained from any drug. --Sara
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:39:01 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: More Beat films...
Comments: To:
stutz@dsl.org
check out Mystic
Fire Video, at:
http://mosaic.echonyc.com/~mysticfire/index.html
they are a great
source of Burroughs and other beat-related stuffs.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:52:53 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: corso(was lies, againg, and all that
existential angst)
In-Reply-To: <33AE6B65.47C2@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>>
>> someone
somewhere in the endless scrolled message on this topic of
>>
lies/aging etc
>> said
that he wanted to know more about this 'corso guy' who is a poet who
>> at times
dons the gonzo poet cap just as HST is gonzo journalism. i highly
>>
recommend _elegiac feelings american_ to you, also, my favorite poem about
>> marriage
>> and, in
meantime here is a more reflective corso piece:
>> HELLO
>> it is
disastrous to be a wounded deer.
>> i'm the
most wounded, wolves stalk,
>> and i
have my failures, too.
>> my flesh
is caught on the inevitable hook!
>> as i
child i saw many things i did not want to be.
>> Am i the
person i did not want to be?
>> that
talks-to-himself person?
>> that -
neighbours make-fun-of person?
>> am i he
who, on museum steps, sleeps on his side?
>> do i
wear the cloth of a man who has failed?
>> am i the
looney man?
>> in the
great serenade of things,
>> am i the most cancelled passage?
>> _______
>> pome
from elegaic feelings:
>> TWO
WEATHER VANES
>> On the
very top of St. Chapel there is a gold chicken
>> And next
to it, on the point of a cone tower, there's a black
>> boat-
>> Whenever
the wind sails the boat toward the chicken
>> Clouds
crash, and it rains, snows
>> And
fogs, chimney pots, steeples, gargoyles sag like honey
>> -Hooray!
In fact all Paris
>> looks like a dropped plate of
lumpy oatmeal
>> ______
>> happy
trails to you
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:53:10 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: letter to editor - 'Howl' poet's
life celebrated]
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i'll enjoy seeing
what if anything gets off the cutting room floor.
a bit
self-serving i just hope they don't print my damn address.
david rhaesa
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<33AE7000.6CC7@midusa.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun
1997 07:45:52 -0500
From: RACE ---
<race@midusa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla
3.01Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To:
SJLetters@saljournal.com
Subject: letter
to editor - 'Howl' poet's life celebrated
Content-Type:
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i loved the
photograph of Anne Waldman at the Los Angeles tribute. i
understand she is
still connected to teaching at the Jack Kerouac school
of Disembodied
Poetics on Arapahoe in the Denver/Boulder area.
One can
see that she
would be a naturally gifted teacher of the creative arts.
this Los Angeles
tribute is by far not the first commemorative
celebration of
Allen's influence on America. last
spring a boy wanted
to read 'Howl' in
his high school as a commemoration. the
authorities
offered that he
would be suspended. he said suspend
me. and according
to rumor a ton of
letters from Howlers across America hit the mail boxes
of the local
authorities. the young man was allowed
to read the poem.
shortly after
Ginsberg's death a memorial was held at St. Marks in New
York City. the images i've read about that service are
powerful. the
strongest is of
Patti Smith singing the old Hank Williams' mourning
song, "I'm
So Lonesome I Could Cry."
Numerous web
pages have memorialized Ginsberg. The
one i'm most
familiar with is
Levi Asher's "Literary Kicks" which is also a great
source for
additional information about Ginsberg.
He catalogued the
mourning which
took place on the BeatGeneration Listserv after the news
of Allen's
passing. One writer named Charley
Plymell that you will find
in Levi's
memorial, from the Wichita area and now in Cherry Valley New
York, lived here
in salina for a time in 1949, drove a Cadillac and
remembers the Fox
Theatre. This local boy's name can be
found there as
well. Anyone interested the slightest in learning
about Beat Generation
literature,
culture or biographical sketches should begin at Literary
Kicks with Levi's
work. He also seems to be a very nice
guy in the
letters i've
received from him.
Another tribute
was held in Venice California on May 10th.
One of the
readings was an
experimental cyberspace explosion of Ginsberg's "On
Burroughs
Work". The collaboration was
printed by Rose of Sharon Press
of Los
Angeles. I believe the copies were all
given away free that
night at Beyond
Baroque in L.A.
Also Ginsberg
tributes are coming out of the woodwork in small poetry
magazines around
the country and in Canada. One magazine
named Second
Beat out of
Mississippi or Alabama somewhere is apparently printing my
Ginsberg tribute
titled "Salina, Kansas" in there next edition.
Ginsberg will be
remembered for many many things and probably despised
for many as
well. what is clear to me from my
interactions with
individuals who
knew the man is that he might best be remembered as a
teacher of the
poetry of life.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
[telephone 823-7969]
[ edit however
you feel appropriate ]
--------------40FE4081E9C--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:59:48 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> >
> > Diane
Carter wrote:
> > >
> > >
Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> > >
>
> > >
> I reread Howl this afternoon...and I think not so much that it is
> > >
> misunderstood as suffering from a very specialized and narrow
> > >
> audience. I read it and
thought.....period piece...I don't think it
> > >
> will transcend time... Usually people can empathsize and relate to
> > >
> another's emotional trauma...but it is very difficult to connect to
> > >
> Ginsberg in Howl. I do have an
appreciation for the poem...he does
> > >
> convey some stunning ideas and displays verbal dexterity and wit...... I
> > >
> feel as if people who can relate, would really hoist this poem as the
> > >
> icon of the the time and/ or experience...it would be ...the emblem poem
> > >
> that it is.. But as a reader, I'm
an outsider, gawking and
> > >
> rubber-necking a tragedy I can only witness from afar and listen to the
> > >
> howling without ever wanting to howl myself.
> > >
> Barb
> > >
> > >
Barb,
> > >
> > >
Howl, as well as the rest of the poetry of Ginsberg, will stand the test
> > > of
time. You and I obviously come from very
different experiences. When
> > > I
first discovered Howl, it literally saved my life. It was not until he
> > >
died and I read the hundreds of memorials posted on various web pages
> > >
that I saw in writing what I had known intellectually all along. That he
> > >
truly touched the souls of masses of people, many whom would not be alive
> > >
today if his words had not given them the freedom and power to be
> > >
themselves. And beyond that, to write of
themselves. Not only do I
> > >
identify with Howl, although I wasn't born until the fifies, I knew that
> > > it
marked the beginning of a time when poetry would no longer be the same
> > >
again. It marked a time when no longer
would the same limits be placed
> > > on
thought or the poetry that came from that thought. In his incredible
> > >
body of work, of which Howl is just the cornerstone, Ginsberg gave us a
> > >
new definition of how humanness, every little speck of humanness, could
> > >
indeed be poetic. He also spoke of
America, an imperfect America, and
> > >
how it is necessary for poets to address the culture which is at their
> > >
feet. But the big thing about Ginsberg
is that he was remained positive
> > > in
addressing the darkness of the mind and what he saw as the darkness of
> > >
America. While he pointed the the dusty,
rotting imageless locomotives,
> > > he
also pointed to the sunflower of the soul.
> > >
> > > I
cannot understand how you cannot relate to the emotional trauma of
> > >
Howl! How can you possibly not want to
howl yourself? Life is a howl.
> > > I
would urge you to start to howl. Find it
inside of yourself.
> > >
The rhythm of Ginsberg's poetry is the rhythm of life in America today.
> > >
When you say that "I think that Howl and many of his major works...are
> > >
limited, and honestly will end up, not as the major voice of the 20th c.,
> > >
but a voice of a period for a particular subsect of the population," I
> > >
have to wonder how much of Ginsberg you have read. He was a major voice
> > > in
the twentieth century but he obviously did not take poetry in the
> > >
direction you want it to go.
> > >
> > >
You are reading beat literature but you don't really see it as enduring.
> >
> Only time will tell. I for one
think it will. But for that to happen
> > >
beat literature has to keep being published, being taught in schools and
> > >
colleges all over this country equally, so that people continue to read
> > >
it, and whole new generations of writers develop their own voices from
> > >
the influences of the beats.
> > >
> > > I
seriously want to know what path your line of thought takes in terms of
> > >
twentieth century poetry. You mentioned,
"I am awed by Plath, Sexton,
> > >
Rich, Bishop, Levertov, Walker...Women with strong voices, writing on
> > >
issues that concern not only women, but humanity." What did these women
> > >
say that inspired you in a way that Ginsberg does not? The confessional
> > >
mode of writing is a uniquely twentieth century development but although
> > >
Plath and Sexton got their concerns out in words, it did not, could not,
> > >
save their own lives. I don't think that
their writing will stand the
> > >
test of time. Do you?
> > > DC
> >
> > About
the women standing the test of time...you or someone had asked
> > what
was the most significant development/work of the 20th C....I think
> > that
the voices as a whole is the most significant development...
> > Perhaps
as individuals they may not endure...but they spoke up and wrote
> > from a
perspective that had been long neglected.
I see it as the most
> >
significant development...because I project that women will dominate
> >
literature in the 21st C.... at least in America.
> >
> > As for
literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
> >
purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
> >
basis. My life has not needed
saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
> > one for
the job if it were the case. I'm
actually not even concerned
> > about
literature as therapy. I am much more
concerned with the
> >
expression of ideas and how well ideas
conveyed through
> >
devices/technique. A good idea should be
expressed in a way that is
> > beyond
compare...perfectly suited... an astounding
synthesis of sound
> > and
meaning .
> >
> > As for
howling....no thank you. At times I do
feel the need to applaud
> > and
cheer... but howl, no. If I don't like
my life or situation, I do
> >
something to change it. And...we are
from different worlds....I've
> > always
been very lucky in many aspects. I've attended great schools,
> > always
had diverse interests...extremely active in dance and
> >
sports....and if I want to get high...I run in the desert or push
> >
physical endurance somehow. I do not
glamourize drug use nor condone it
> > in any
fashion. I honestly think the beats were
great
> >
experimenters...and some truly were on quests, but their lives are
> > tragic
as a whole. (and where many thought they
had attained
> >
enlightenment...or epiphanies...they were just spewing the frazzled
> >
synaptic mishaps of an overdose... It does NOT make for great art. When
> > I read
poetry where the poet is obviously wacked, I think "junk"
> > ...not
revolutionary, novel, genius driven art)
Ok *grin*...everyone
> > jump on
me now.....
> > Barb
> patricia
wrote
> I resist the flame, since you don't
need your life saved, you don't
> appreciate
the death and rebirth in beat literature that is so important
> to me. I saw so many people living lifes not of
quiet desperation but
> half lifes,
zombies through careful little doses of being careful
>
"normal" and denial > I burned, I felt i would rather die than
live life
> asleep.
> i don't dispise altered consciousness of the
many forms, the most
> dangerous
one being in love. I see a herd of women being goaded by
> culture to
wear buffant hairdos and i thought beat literature helped the
> ladies let
their curls run free like sunshine and summer. I don't know
> about taking
my own temperature during the altered states of being but
> the
reflections of light after helped illuminate the ideas that got me
> an inch past
provincial, and god knows here in kansas where eisenhower
> didn't die
and strange is a guy from arkansas, any concept that takes
> you past
"taters should be fried" helps fight hate and fear. Perhaps the
> most
important aspect of altered conciousness is that we have a "choice
> or even
responsibility" of perspective, be it zen or dispair. We even
> have the
right. To experiment in words reflects the deepest experiment
> that in how
we think and view the world and in that way all good
> literature
affects me and changes me. but of course that is how i define
> good
literature. and for me it saves my life every so often. curled in
> my soapbox like
a cat, thinking that the great lie is the only sweet thing
about death is the smell.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:32:30 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments: To:
race@midusa.net
In a message
dated 97-06-23 05:34:25 EDT, you write:
<<
> >> "Lies! Lies! Lies! I lie,
you lie, we all lie!
> >> There is no us, there is no
world, there is no universe,
> >> there is no life, no death, no
nothing--all is meaningless,
> >> and this too is a lie--O damned
1959!" --Gregory Corso
> >>
> >> -leo jilk >>
this message has
far too many ">>>"s. Nevertheless, i was just wondering if
anyone had seen
that amazing painting of greg Corso that was featured in the
'Beat
generation' exhibit that passed through
the Whitney about 1 year 1/2
ago? And do you
remember who it was by? Anybody?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.
In a message
dated 97-06-23 07:30:25 EDT, you write:
<< At the end of the movie Harry convinces
Neal to drink with him. This is what Neal's step brother did in the
"great
sex letter" (The one that starts off
"To have seen a specter isn't
everything..)
At the beginning of the movie Harry is as you described,
Neal's pool buddy.
>>
Sorry but i
couldn't help thinking it should be changed to "To have seen a
sphyncter isn't
everything" I'm sorry i know that's childish but i couldn't
help it. My
apologies to Allen Ginsberg or whoever might take this
personally.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:32:53 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Zabriskie Point revised
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970621105721.5506B-100000@srv1.freenet.calga
ry.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Derek A. Beaulieu
writes:
>soundtrack
for zabriski point also by the grateful dead's own prophet mr.
>jerome j.
garcia. in case ya'll didnt know.
>derek
& when the
policeman says what's yr name? Mark says "Karl Marx",
& the
policeman typewrites "Marx
Carlo", this scene remember me
"On the
Road" where Jack Kerouac describes "the dark mind that is
Carlo Marx",
i cant' think Michelangelo Antonioni haven't read the
Kerouac's work...
( a quote & a tribute to JK dead a year before?)
btw who is really
Carlo Marx in "On The Road"? this question is now
keep in my mind,
peace&happiness,
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * a beet
is a beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:23:40 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Zabriskie Point revised
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970623153253.00be5594@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
as to the
identity of poor carlo marx lost in the weeds:
well our own
allen ginsberg.
the secrets out
there gonna be
trouble.
keep yr trenchcoat
on yr fedora down low
derek
On Mon, 23 Jun
1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> Derek A.
Beaulieu writes:
>
>soundtrack for zabriski point also by the grateful dead's own prophet mr.
> >jerome
j. garcia. in case ya'll didnt know.
> >derek
> & when
the policeman says what's yr name? Mark says "Karl Marx",
> & the
policeman typewrites "Marx
Carlo", this scene remember me
> "On the
Road" where Jack Kerouac describes "the dark mind that is
> Carlo
Marx", i cant' think Michelangelo Antonioni haven't read the
> Kerouac's
work... ( a quote & a tribute to JK dead a year before?)
>
> btw who is
really Carlo Marx in "On The Road"? this question is now
> keep in my
mind,
>
>
peace&happiness,
> ---
> yrs
> Rinaldo. * a
beet is a beet *
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:27:16 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To: <l03020908afd3cd92dfd5@[206.25.67.117]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
mc (& co)
aint something to
be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
first thot best
thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
captures the
image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
distance the creation
from the act of creation? distances the child from
the orgasm (to
use a strange metaphor.)?
derek
On Mon, 23 Jun
1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> This is a
good issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
> definately a
value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
> discipline
of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
> When the
muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
> else to do
but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
> language
that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
> then stream
of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
> ________
> this is
exactly what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
> due to
having a somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
> also as one
who has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
> of
perception, i write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
> all the
memories,
> first in
prose
> then in
verse
> again again
again rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
> of the cracks in the eternal sidewalk, etc etc
> also have
found a wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
> to protect
her from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:29:42 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
In-Reply-To: <33AE7344.45F4@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> patricia
wrote
> I resist the flame, since you don't
need your life saved, you don't
> appreciate
the death and rebirth in beat literature that is so important
> to me. I saw so many people living lifes not of
quiet desperation but
> half lifes,
zombies through careful little doses of being careful
>
"normal" and denial > I burned, I felt i would rather die than
live life
> asleep.
> i don't dispise altered consciousness of the
many forms, the most
> dangerous
one being in love. I see a herd of women being goaded by
> culture to
wear buffant hairdos and i thought beat literature helped the
> ladies let
their curls run free like sunshine and summer. I don't know
> about taking
my own temperature during the altered states of being but
> the reflections
of light after helped illuminate the ideas that got me
> an inch past
provincial, and god knows here in kansas where eisenhower
> didn't die
and strange is a guy from arkansas, any concept that takes
> you past
"taters should be fried" helps fight hate and fear. Perhaps the
> most
important aspect of altered conciousness is that we have a "choice
> or even
responsibility" of perspective, be it zen or dispair. We even
> have the
right. To experiment in words reflects the deepest experiment
> that in how
we think and view the world and in that way all good
> literature
affects me and changes me. but of course that is how i define
> good
literature. and for me it saves my life every so often. curled in
> my soapbox
like a cat, thinking that the great lie is the only sweet thing
about death is the smell.
> p
_________
three cheers for
patricia. couldn't agree more. distubing the way sexton
and plath wrote
their suicide notes time and time again, trapped in
solopstic
universes, where only pain was reward.
so different from
the reaching out, the broadening of social awareness and
tenderness evoked
in AG's poems they are all about life and how to live it,
to all of us at
large. i studied plath, i studied saxton i read the
biographies and
all i could think of was how sad these women are and how 2
dimensional both
personality and writings. technically marvelous poetry, no
doubt about
technique. but so hermetically sealed in their gazing into own
navel and
snarling at world outside of them.
trauma can make
excellent poetry when broadened out to reach others in an
expansive world
view that allows poet to write to others and not just to
self or
lovers/husbands/shrinks..
as a confessional
poet who is always building bridges to get to other side
and dance out the
pain with friendship sharing and openess, i must say that
AG did such
writing so superbly. his pain is not just for himself, his pain
is for all. i
first 'saw' myself in HOWL. and i walk that line carefully
through revisions
of my work.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:31:53 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-21 06:46:57 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> Sara Feustle wrote:
> >
> > I myself am a whopping 21, and I am
soooooo pissed off about all the stuff
> > I missed for being born so late!!!!
Anybody else in the same predicament?
>
> I am 23 and yes I am pissed, thinking about
all that I missed. I'm also
> annoyed being born so early. Imagine what I
won't see in the future.
> Still I wouldn't like to see myself in the
mirror at the age of 200. I'd
> be reeeally ugly. So all things considered,
I'm happy.
>
> -daniel
>
> >>
> I don't get
it. I sed i was 22 before, but i don't
feel like i should have
> been born
earlier or later. I feel JUST
right. I guess knowing that i was a
> gangsta
chick in 1940's Chicago in my previous life helps. I didn't miss a
> thing. It's all happening NOW as far as i'm
concerned. Sara---just think,
> in a few
years, you'll be saggy and wrinkly so enjoy yerself now, while you
> can still
get some!
Sounds a bit like
Miniver Cheevy:
Miniver Cheevy,
child of scorn,
Grew lean while he assailed the
seasons;
He wept that he
was ever born,
And he had reasons.
Miniver loved the
days of old
When swords were bright and steeds were
prancing:
The visions of a
warrior bold
Would set him dancing.
Miniver sighted
for what was not,
And dreamed, and rested from his
labors;
He dreamed of
Thebes and Camelot,
And Priam's neighbors.
Miniver mourned
the ripe renown
That made so many a name so fragrant;
He mourned
Romance, now on the town,
and Art, a vagrant.
Miniver loved the
Medici,
Albeit he had never seen one;
He would have
sinned incessantly
Could he have been one.
Miniver cursed
the commonplace
And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;
He missed the
medieval grace
Of iron clothing
Miniver scorned
the gold he sought,
But sore annoyed was he without it;
Miniver thought,
and thought, and thought,
And thought about it.
Miniver Cheevy,
born too late,
Scratched his head and kept on
thinking;
Miniver coughed,
and called it fate,
And kept on drinking.
from Edwin
Arlington Robinson......
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:37:56 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970623082432.29216A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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d: first thought
may be best thought, but to make the thought
understandable to
others and to craft a poem takes revision, if only a
second draft. too
many thoughts (good and otherwise) fill my first draft. i
then need to
listen to the voices, and then prune away the extraneous
flying squirrels
who shit out of my tree of knowledge. all this is done to
make clearer and
more universal the first thought. the end = first
thought+heightened
awareness and beauty of form of poem on page.
look for example,
as i know you have both, the difference made in editing
the plattsburg
pome from first to second drafts. first draft was first
thought; second
draft was to make those thoughts leap more clearly onto
page into rhythm
of childhood chants and more immediacy of the poet circle
and less fumbling
about in my head (the me/not me stanza).
just my way of
doing things. works for me,
it also worked
for JK who unlike the legend, reworked and edited his first
thoughts to elevation of art.
mc
>mc (& co)
>aint
something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
>first thot
best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
>captures the
image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
>distance the
creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
>the orgasm
(to use a strange metaphor.)?
>derek
>
>On Mon, 23
Jun 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>>
>> This is
a good issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
>>
definately a value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
>>
discipline of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
>> When the
muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
>> else to
do but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
>> language
that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
>> then
stream of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
>> ________
>> this is
exactly what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
>> due to
having a somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
>> also as
one who has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
>> of
perception, i write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
>> all the
memories,
>> first in
prose
>> then in
verse
>> again
again again rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
>> of
the cracks in the eternal sidewalk, etc
etc
>> also
have found a wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
>> to
protect her from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
>> mc
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:41:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: first thought and revision
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
btw, insp. derek:
them weeds in the
sidewalk obscure the cracks in universe in which i slip
with tiny pad .
some weed, some
do not
("some cook
some do not" ole ezra said this i believe somewhere in them cantos.
ok, enuf
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:40:10 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: TA-DA!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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quoted-printable
from literary
kicks webside (http://www.charmnet/~Brooklyn/LitKicks.html)
'Marriage' by
Gregory Corso
Thanks to Gene R.
Truex (gene.r.truex@dartmouth.edu) for typing this
wonderful poem
in.
Should I get
married? Should I be good?
Astound the girl
next door with my velvet suit and faustus hood?
Don't take her to
movies but to cemeteries
tell all about
werewolf bathtubs and forked clarinets
then desire her
and kiss her and all the preliminaries
and she going
just so far and I understanding why
not getting angry
saying You must feel! It's beautiful to feel!
Instead take her
in my arms lean against an old crooked tombstone
and woo her the
entire night the constellations in the sky-
When she introduces
me to her parents
back
straightened, hair finally combed, strangled by a tie,
should I sit with
my knees together on their 3rd degree sofa
and not ask
Where's the bathroom?
How else to feel
other than I am,
often thinking
Flash Gordon soap-
O how terrible it
must be for a young man
seated before a
family and the family thinking
We never saw him
before! He wants our Mary Lou!
After tea and
homemade cookies they ask What do you do for a living?
Should I tell
them? Would they like me then?
Say All right get
married, we're losing a daughter
but we're gaining
a son-
And should I then
ask Where's the bathroom?
O God, and the
wedding! All her family and her friends
and only a
handful of mine all scroungy and bearded
just wait to get
at the drinks and food-
And the priest!
he looking at me as if I masturbated
asking me Do you
take this woman for your lawful wedded wife?
And I trembling
what to say say Pie Glue!
I kiss the bride
all those corny men slapping me on the back
She's all yours,
boy! Ha-ha-ha!
And in their eyes
you could see some obscene honeymoon going on-
Then all that
absurd rice and clanky cans and shoes
Niagara Falls!
Hordes of us! Husbands! Wives! Flowers! Chocolates!
All streaming
into cozy hotels
All going to do
the same thing tonight
The indifferent
clerk he knowing what was going to happen
The lobby zombies
they knowing what
The whistling
elevator man he knowing
Everybody
knowing! I'd almost be inclined not to do anything!
Stay up all
night! Stare that hotel clerk in the eye!
Screaming: I deny
honeymoon! I deny honeymoon!
running rampant
into those almost climactic suites
yelling Radio
belly! Cat shovel!
O I'd live in
Niagara forever! in a dark cave beneath the Falls
I'd sit there the
Mad Honeymooner
devising ways to
break marriages, a scourge of bigamy
a saint of
divorce-
But I should get
married I should be good
How nice it'd be
to come home to her
and sit by the
fireplace and she in the kitchen
aproned young and
lovely wanting my baby
and so happy
about me she burns the roast beef
and comes crying
to me and I get up from my big papa chair
saying Christmas
teeth! Radiant brains! Apple deaf!
God what a
husband I'd make! Yes, I should get married!
So much to do!
Like sneaking into Mr Jones' house late at night
and cover his
golf clubs with 1920 Norwegian books
Like hanging a
picture of Rimbaud on the lawnmower
like pasting
Tannu Tuva postage stamps all over the picket fence
like when Mrs
Kindhead comes to collect for the Community Chest
grab her and tell
her There are unfavorable omens in the sky!
And when the
mayor comes to get my vote tell him
When are you
going to stop people killing whales!
And when the
milkman comes leave him a note in the bottle
Penguin dust,
bring me penguin dust, I want penguin dust-
Yes if I should
get married and it's Connecticut and snow
and she gives
birth to a child and I am sleepless, worn,
up for nights,
head bowed against a quiet window, the past behind me,
finding myself in
the most common of situations a trembling man
knowledged with
responsibility not twig-smear nor Roman coin soup-
O what would that
be like!
Surely I'd give
it for a nipple a rubber Tacitus
=46or a rattle a
bag of broken Bach records
Tack Della
Francesca all over its crib
Sew the Greek
alphabet on its bib
And build for its
playpen a roofless Parthenon
No, I doubt I'd
be that kind of father
Not rural not
snow no quiet window
but hot smelly
tight New York City
seven flights up,
roaches and rats in the walls
a fat Reichian
wife screeching over potatoes Get a job!
And five nose
running brats in love with Batman
And the neighbors
all toothless and dry haired
like those hag
masses of the 18th century
all wanting to
come in and watch TV
The landlord
wants his rent
Grocery store
Blue Cross Gas & Electric Knights of Columbus
impossible to lie
back and dream Telephone snow, ghost parking-
No! I should not
get married! I should never get married!
But-imagine if I
were married to a beautiful sophisticated woman
tall and pale
wearing an elegant black dress and long black gloves
holding a
cigarette holder in one hand and a highball in the other
and we lived high
up in a penthouse with a huge window
from which we
could see all of New York and even farther on clearer days
No, can't imagine
myself married to that pleasant prison dream-
O but what about
love? I forget love
not that I am
incapable of love
It's just that I
see love as odd as wearing shoes-
I never wanted to
marry a girl who was like my mother
And Ingrid Bergman
was always impossible
And there's maybe
a girl now but she's already married
And I don't like
men and-
But there's got
to be somebody!
Because what if
I'm 60 years old and not married,
all alone in a
furnished room with pee stains on my underwear
and everybody
else is married! All the universe married but me!
Ah, yet well I
know that were a woman possible as I am possible
then marriage
would be possible-
Like SHE in her
lonely alien gaud waiting her Egyptian lover
so i wait-bereft
of 2,000 years and the bath of life.
Literary Kicks
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:01:21 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: i forgot the thread title -RACE, response
to spontaniety
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dave
you pick yr nose
hairs
i'll prune my
pomes.
no difference.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:18:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> >
patricia wrote
> > I resist the flame, since you don't need your
life saved, you don't
> >
appreciate the death and rebirth in beat literature that is so important
> > to
me. I saw so many people living lifes
not of quiet desperation but
> > half
lifes, zombies through careful little doses of being careful
> >
"normal" and denial > I burned, I felt i would rather die than
live life
> > asleep.
> > i don't dispise altered consciousness of the
many forms, the most
> >
dangerous one being in love. I see a herd of women being goaded by
> > culture
to wear buffant hairdos and i thought beat literature helped the
> > ladies
let their curls run free like sunshine and summer. I don't know
> > about
taking my own temperature during the altered states of being but
> > the reflections
of light after helped illuminate the ideas that got me
> > an inch
past provincial, and god knows here in kansas where eisenhower
> > didn't
die and strange is a guy from arkansas, any concept that takes
> > you
past "taters should be fried" helps fight hate and fear. Perhaps the
> > most
important aspect of altered conciousness is that we have a "choice
> > or even
responsibility" of perspective, be it zen or dispair. We even
> > have
the right. To experiment in words reflects the deepest experiment
> > that in
how we think and view the world and in that way all good
> >
literature affects me and changes me. but of course that is how i define
> > good
literature. and for me it saves my life every so often. curled in
> > my
soapbox like a cat, thinking that the great lie is the only sweet thing
> about death is the smell.
> > p
> _________
> three cheers
for patricia. couldn't agree more. distubing the way sexton
> and plath
wrote their suicide notes time and time again, trapped in
> solopstic
universes, where only pain was reward.
> so different
from the reaching out, the broadening of social awareness and
> tenderness
evoked in AG's poems they are all about life and how to live it,
> to all of us
at large. i studied plath, i studied saxton i read the
> biographies
and all i could think of was how sad these women are and how 2
> dimensional
both personality and writings. technically marvelous poetry, no
> doubt about
technique. but so hermetically sealed in their gazing into own
> navel and
snarling at world outside of them.
> trauma can
make excellent poetry when broadened out to reach others in an
> expansive
world view that allows poet to write to others and not just to
> self or
lovers/husbands/shrinks..
> as a confessional
poet who is always building bridges to get to other side
> and dance
out the pain with friendship sharing and openess, i must say that
> AG did such
writing so superbly. his pain is not just for himself, his pain
> is for all.
i first 'saw' myself in HOWL. and i walk that line carefully
> through
revisions of my work.
> mc
my ex-wife was a
big Virginia Woolf fan. i don't know if
that is in the
same women's
lineage. She said I had to read this -
and the only time
she'd said that
before was with Farina's "Been Down So Long It Looks
Like Up to
Me" so i tried and i tried - something about a room bunch of
rants about
freedom to be i guess. hell the whole
universe is the room
as far as i'm
concerned. I didn't get it really. one day i was in
special
collections at the University of Iowa and on a lark i looked up
Woolf. they had this book about VW (the original
bug) spending an
entire day
shopping for a pencil. then i got
it. the pencil book
should be Woolf's
most famous.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:22:22 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> btw, insp.
derek:
> them weeds
in the sidewalk obscure the cracks in universe in which i slip
> with tiny
pad .
> some weed,
some do not
> ("some
cook some do not" ole ezra said this i believe somewhere in them
cantos.
> ok, enuf
> mc
as an old
gardener said "watch which weeds you pull up!"
in the same vein
step on a crack -
break your mother's back.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:44:04 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: question for david
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david r:
is your comment about the "forest
of arden" aspect of the beat
hotel related to
the sexual connotation that AG and JK were always trying
to convey to JC
Holmes?
by the way, where is the beat
hotel? (sorry for the ignorance,
but inquiring
minds want to know) *smile*
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:37:28 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Marcel Proust questionnaire (Re: does
anyone here speak french?)
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Quel est pour
vous le comble de la mise're?
[]
Ou' aimeriez-vous
vivre?
[]
Votre ide'al de
bonheur terrestre?
[]
Pour quelles
fautes avez-vous le plus d'indulgence?
[]
Vos he'ros de
romans pre'fe'res?
[]
Votre personnage
historique pre'fe're'?
[]
Vos he'roi:nes dans
le vie re'elle?
[]
Vos he'roi:nes
dans la fiction?
[]
Votre peintre
favori?
[]
Votre musicien
pre'fe're'?
[]
Votre qualite'
pre'fe're'e chez l'homme?
[]
Votre qualite'
pre'fe're'e chez la femme?
[]
Votre vertu
pre'fe're'e?
[]
Votre occupation
pre'fe're'e?
[]
Qui auriez-vous
aime' e^tre?
[]
Le trait
principal de votre caracte're?
[]
Ce que vouz
appre'ciez le plus chez des amis?
[]
Votre principal
de'feaut?
[]
Votre re^ve de
bonheur?
[]
Quel serait votre
plus grand malheur?
[]
Ce que vous
voudriez e^tre?
[]
Le couleur que
vous pre'fe'rez?
[]
Le fleur que vous
aimez?
[]
L'oiseau que vous
pre'fe'rez?
[]
Vos auteurs
favoris en prose?
[]
Vos poe'tes
pre'fe're's?
[]
Vos noms favoris?
[]
Le caracte'res
historiques que vous me'prisez le plus?
[]
Le fait militaire
que vous admirez le plus?
[]
Le don de la
nature que vous voudriez avoir?
[]
Ce que vous
de'testez par dessus tout?
[]
Comment
aimeriez-vous mourir?
[]
E'tat pre'sent de
votre esprit?
[]
Votre devise?
[]
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:07:37 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Genesis in nuce.
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Yahweh by John Cage
Jabal
hE was
tHe
Of
haVE
nAme
He
Just
walkEd
with
gOd
filled with Violence
And
flesH
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:19:03 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
In-Reply-To: <33AEA2BE.5A60@midusa.net>
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RACE --- wrote:
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>>
>> btw,
insp. derek:
>> them
weeds in the sidewalk obscure the cracks in universe in which i slip
>> with
tiny pad .
>> some
weed, some do not
>>
("some cook some do not" ole ezra said this i believe somewhere in
them
> cantos.
>> ok, enuf
>> mc
>
>as an old
gardener said "watch which weeds you pull up!"
>in the same
vein
>step on a
crack - break your mother's back.
>
there were always
a lot of weeds in the sidewalk at my aunt's house in
oregon. it was
also there that my cousin who had been beaten and sexually
molested by his
father told me about the time he tried to kill his mother
with a knife. but
somehow, the thing i rember most is the little silver
dish of candies
that always sat on a dresser in the front room and my aunt
putting her
cripppled legs up on a dark leather chair.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:14:46 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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>Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> About the
women standing the test of time...you or someone had asked
> what was the
most significant development/work of the 20th C....I think
> that the
voices as a whole is the most significant development...
> Perhaps as
individuals they may not endure...but they spoke up and
>wrote
> from a
perspective that had been long neglected.
I see it as the most
> significant
development...because I project that women will dominate
> literature
in the 21st C.... at least in America.
>
> As for
literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
>
purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
> basis. My life has not needed saving...and I'm not
sure a poet is the
> one for the
job if it were the case. I'm actually
not even concerned
> about
literature as therapy. I am much more
concerned with the
> expression
of ideas and how well ideas conveyed
through
>
devices/technique. A good idea should be
expressed in a way that is
> beyond
compare...perfectly suited... an astounding
synthesis of sound
> and meaning
.
>
> As for
howling....no thank you. At times I do
feel the need to applaud
> and cheer...
but howl, no. If I don't like my life or
situation, I do
> something to
change it. And...we are from different
worlds....I've
> always been
very lucky in many aspects. I've attended great schools,
> always had
diverse interests...extremely active in dance and
>
sports....and if I want to get high...I run in the desert or push
> physical
endurance somehow. I do not glamourize
drug use nor condone
>it
> in any
fashion. I honestly think the beats were
great
>
experimenters...and some truly were on quests, but their lives are
> tragic as a whole. (and where many thought they had attained
>
enlightenment...or epiphanies...they were just spewing the frazzled
> synaptic
mishaps of an overdose... It does NOT make for great art.
>When
> I read
poetry where the poet is obviously wacked, I think "junk"
> ...not
revolutionary, novel, genius driven art)
Ok *grin*...everyone
> jump on me
now.....
> Barb
Hi Barb,
First of all,
about women poets standing the test of time, I truly hope
that great poetry
does continue to come from women, but not because they
are women. There is no male or female in great poetry,
only humanity, to
think that you
can write from a female perspective and have it last as
female
perspective, is a myth. What you touch
in yourself when you write
poetry is the great
oneness of the human experience. And you
add to that
experience in one
voice, that is neither male nor female, but one
that comes from
the huge, expanding river of consciouness that passes
through and
connects the minds of all of us.
You are lucky
that your life has never needing saving, actually maybe not
so lucky, if your
experience has kept your life safe and
compartmentalized,
because that's not the way of things in the universe.
No writer that has not touched the great
despair of our humannness can
write about great
joy. I am not at all concerned with
literature as
therapy but the
quest of humanness in all its darkness and light is what
has propelled
great literature to be written from Odysseus to now. "A
good idea should
be expressed in a way that is beyond compare...an
astounding
synthesis of sound and meaning"...is from my perspective back
to the classical
definition of creating a work of art outside of
yourself. I would rather see each and every moment of
life exalted and
poetic, in all
its rambling and unrulely glory.
I don't think
that beat writers glamourized drug use any more than Plath
or Sexton
glamourized suicide. It was a part of
their world and a part
of an
experimentation that covered all aspects of their lives. You
should also
consider that the use of drugs for some people is not that
different than
the endorphin high that you might get from pushing
physical
endurance. Both take you to another
level of consciousness, a
level that makes
mind and body one, and gives you the space to be at
peace with the
comings and goings of your daily existence. I spend my
days interviewing
people about why they run or bike, why they incorporate
exercise into
their lives, and that "sweet spot" that is reached in
pushing the human
body is not that far removed from an addict getting
their hit for the
day. When I was in my twenties, I would
have looked at
alcohol or drugs
for an answer, now I look to my bicycle.
I would also
ask you to look
at the epiphanies or enlightment of any writer and to
examine if they
were any different if drugs were used or not. I think
not. I thing that if you substracted the fact that
Kerouac, Ginsberg or
Burroughs used
drugs, you would still recognize the brilliance of their
work for what it
is. Have you read Finnegans Wake? I see beat writers
as pushing the
same stream of consciousness/mind into the heart of
American life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:27:58 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
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Derek A. Beaulieu
wrote:
>
> mc (&
co)
> aint
something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
> first thot
best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
> captures the
image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
> distance the
creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
> the orgasm
(to use a strange metaphor.)?
> derek
> I think it
depends on every individual as to whether the spontaneous flow
is best revised
or not. The key to good revision is to
illuminate
without losing
the spontaneity of the flow. I tend to
write and revise
in my head, kind
of a mind that creates and revises simultaneously so
that by the time
my creation hits paper, it is seldom revised again.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:51:02 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To: <33AEEA5E.2ED9@together.net>
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On Mon, 23 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Derek A.
Beaulieu wrote:
> > mc
(& co)
> > aint
something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
> > first
thot best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
> >
captures the image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
> >
distance the creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
> > the
orgasm (to use a strange metaphor.)?
> > derek
> > I think
it depends on every individual as to whether the spontaneous flow
> is best
revised or not. The key to good revision
is to illuminate
> without
losing the spontaneity of the flow. I
tend to write and revise
> in my head,
kind of a mind that creates and revises simultaneously so
> that by the
time my creation hits paper, it is seldom revised again.
> DC
dc (diane) and
co.
by no means am i
argueing that marie's way of composing is wrong or flawed
(flod) in any
way. she & i been discussing poetry, etc for quite a while &
simply approach
composition of poetry in different ways. several things at
play - what are
you working at getting FROM yr poetry, what are you doing,
etc. for instance
marie referred to herself as a "confessional" poet at
one point (dont
remember where) and while that works for her & what she
needs to explore
in poetry / words, it aint my bag. not that i cant
appreciate her
poetry (exactly the opposite - in fact i'm frequently
humbled by her
works)personally - at the moment ive been pushing around
words on page -
words themselves - the way they *look*, feel, *act*, move
on the page
almost sculpture of form not necessarily meaning. & what works
best for me is
immediate interaction w/ page let the synapses fire where
they may &
half (or more) falls flat - fine with me. i'll learn for
nexttime. the
ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my word
w(a)(o)nderings).
different ways of
approaching wrds.
same core tho.
its all
communication from a creator.
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:04:36 -0400
Reply-To: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew W Barton <mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
Comments: To:
"neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33AD8260.307C@discovland.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
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having ignored the world for a spell, i
hope i'm not saying
anything that has
been said a dozen times already or ignores previous
explanitory
statements -- however... each writer has
their own style as
well as
method. one should not attempt to
duplicate either. because one
author feels
drugs inversely effect their craftmanship, what leaves you to
assume it will
adversely affect all. such blanket
statements have led
more scholars to
dismiss the beats, new york's downtown writers and
countless other
genres of art created in connection to drugs.
burroughs
does alright by
me. smack wouldn't inspire your failing
mind though. if
your shit stinks
before drugs, it sure won't help.
hemingway used to
stand before a
podium to write. he said it focused his
whole mind upon
the task at
hand. it could have just been to
alleviate the discomfort of
hemroids. whatever, i wouldn't tell anyone how to write
or judge the
product by the
means one shapes their medium. i didn't
stand while typing
this.
mwbarton.
On Sun, 22 Jun
1997, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> In response
to Mike Skau's:
>
> > Writing
on drugs: often I feel that I create some of my best work stoned.
The
> > problem
is that when I look at it again the next morning, I'm so embarrassed
> > that I
can only pray that I hadn't somehow shown it to anybody: Ginsberg's
> >
"in the morning were stanzas of gibberish." A Hallucination
Dissertation
> >
Manifesto of Coca, Saturn, and Sun.
>
>
> To
paraphrase Gary Snyder, he states that ("The Real Work" interviews)
> if you write
> *under the
influence* of psychedelics, it is as if you are entering the
> cave and
> *stopping*
at the first gold pieces, instead of experiencing the cave
> for the
cave, reaching farther into the cave where the diamonds lie.
> Writing is a
form of documentation, and if you are constantly
> documenting,
the pure experience, the beauty of the trip is compromised.
>
> It is more rewarding to write after
the fact - a little time for
>
contemplation - understanding of the trip - Wordsworth writes: "poetry
> is the
spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings [which is the trip] . .
> .
recollected in tranquility" [after the trip].
>
> This is a good issue for discussion.
Spontaneous writing . . . there
is
> definately a
value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
> discipline
of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
> When the
muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
> else to do
but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
> language
that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
> then stream
of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
>
> Joseph
Neudorfer
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:02:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
Comments: To:
race@midusa.net
In a message
dated 97-06-23 14:43:24 EDT, you write:
<<
"watch which weeds you pull up
in the same vein! ">>
I just edited
you, race. It makes a strange kind of
sense this way, don't
you think
--------maya.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:06:18 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: spin
Content-Type:
text
Hi!
The current issue
of _Spin_ has a memorial on Ginsberg: July 1997
issue, pp. 52,
54-55.
Right now I'm
only 250 e-mail messages behind. In a couple of
days, I hope to
get caught up, so if you sent me a message, don't
think that I'm
ignoring you. I just haven't gotten to you yet.
Happy summer to
all!
Mike Skau
6/23/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:14:03 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970619221359_678499326@emout13.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 19 Jun
1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> And both
these boys ended up whores of Moloch.
> C. Plymell
>
And Kerouac once
either wrote or said, "We're all whores." I found this
quotation in
_Memory Babe_ and have been meaning to ask Gerry for the
original
source. This saying really struck me as
insightful; we're all
sell-outs,
politicians, master manipulators. wow.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:20:10 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33ADCA8B.55F7@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 22 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Just
finished reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.
> "...and
nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides
> the forlorn
rags of growing old..." That line
took me back to something
> that Gerald
Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that
> "the
knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]
> wrote."
An aside: didn't
Kerouac directly say that somewhere? I seem to recall
having heard his
voice speak those words -- maybe in the 4-CD _Jack Kerouac
Collection_
[which is a must-have btw, and when my then-girlfriend gave this
to me for my
birthday in '93 it was the moment that I somehow knew she'd end
up my wife].
> Isn't the
knowledge that we are going to die the reason that any writer
> writes? Isn't that the reason that we also grab onto
life, every moment
> of
life? What maybe affected me more was
"...all that road going, all
> the people
dreaming in the immensity of it,..."
The way Kerouac said it,
> it was a
kinda a great thing but a sad thing. The
way I see it, it's a
> great thing
and a positive thing, because it is individual dreams that
> pull people
out of dispair and what Kerouac came to see as the sadness of
>
America. Anyone out there got an
feelings about this?
To me, this is
the essence of Jack -- I think it was this emotion that was
at the core of
what drove him to write. Yeah it's a great thing and a sad
thing at the same
time; the chiaroscuro high-low orchestration of Jack
Kerouac prose
describes postwar Americana like no other. I wasn't there but
reading him I
actually felt it, and could apply it to the now and the
internal moments
of my own life -- so he has to use the word "redbrick" a
million times in
_Visions of Cody_ and gushes on about candy counters like a
goofball -- it
doesn't matter, that starryeyed dreaminess was testament to
his existence as
master of grabbing onto life and its every moment.
Self-awareness is
knowledge of your own life and damnation, it begets joy
and therefore
art.
m
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:27:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: TA-DA!
In a message dated
97-06-23 16:21:18 EDT, you write:
<<
Ah, yet well I know that were a woman possible
as I am possible
then marriage would be possible-(corso)
>>
yep, that pretty
much sums it up for me.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:51:23 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Collage of songs, (Exit light, enter
night.)
how 'bout a poem
for mah bay-bee
ooh, ya look so
good
just a-walkin
downda street
singin
"evryting's gonna bee ah-ight"
And you know it
truly truly is sin
that villains,
always, blink their eyes!
HEY!
been tryin' to
meetcha.
Dontcha know that
happiness is a warm gun?
Burnin' a hole in
my pocket (silver rocket).
Some men do it
for diamonds, some do it for gold.
We danced the
Cemetery Polka all night
and partied
ev-er-y day.
But momma,
i'm gonna leave
it all behind and face the pain.
Under the bridge
over troubled water.
'Cause it makes
me feel like I'm a man
when... the
streets have no name.
Base!
How low can you
go?
Death Row?
Water buffalo!
So baybeh if ya
feelin' good....
DISCLAIMER: THE
LINES IN THIS POEM ARE NOT ORIGINAL THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL LINES
FROM DIFFERENT
SONGS BY OTHER PEOPLE NOT ME.
so i don't wanna
hear it ok?
Just for fun, how
many of these lines can you identify?(singer and song!)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:06:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: madness
crate, crate,
crate.
That's all i do
anymore.
Mommee, why did i
hafta be born so damn crative?
"Shut yer
cake-hole ya fuckin' brat"
Oh god is this
one of those poems where i talk to myself.
(not only that
but i cuss myself too)
Somebody send me
some mail
to keep me from
tapping endlessly!
I would rather
read your stuff than mine.
And rather than
you reading mine, wouldn't you rather i read yours?
(i'll show you
mine....)
(some people tell
her 'oh, you must have a very interesting inner life')
WELL THEY'RE
RIGHT, OK???!!!
(maya, is that
little girl you?)
--------------------------------------maya(
truly mad, not just faking it for
artistic
purposes)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:09:55 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:20 PM
6/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, 22
Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
>> Just
finished reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.
>>
"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides
>> the
forlorn rags of growing old..."
That line took me back to something
>> that
Gerald Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that
>>
"the knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]
>>
wrote."
>
>An aside:
didn't Kerouac directly say that somewhere? I seem to recall
>having heard
his voice speak those words -- maybe in the 4-CD _Jack Kerouac
>Collection_
[which is a must-have btw, and when my then-girlfriend gave this
>to me for my
birthday in '93 it was the moment that I somehow knew she'd end
>up my wife].
Yeah,
I was wondering
why someone didn't quote this.
It's from Visions
of Cody and is part of the reading he did on the Steve
Allen Show (funny
how Jay leno doesn't have any authors reading nowadays).
"I wrote the
book cause we're all gonna die"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:23:49 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Collage of songs, (Exit light, enter
night.)
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970623164937_1621369355@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> how 'bout a
poem for mah bay-bee
> ooh, ya look
so good - PATTI SMITH (?)
> just
a-walkin downda street
> singin
"evryting's gonna bee ah-ight"
> And you know
it truly truly is sin
> that
villains, always, blink their eyes!
> HEY!
> been tryin'
to meetcha.
> Dontcha know
that happiness is a warm gun?
- BEATLES
> Burnin' a
hole in my pocket (silver rocket).
> Some men do
it for diamonds, some do it for gold.
> We danced
the Cemetery Polka all night
> and partied
ev-er-y day.
> But momma,
> i'm gonna
leave it all behind and face the pain.
> Under the
bridge over troubled water.
- SIMON &GARFUNKEL
> 'Cause it
makes me feel like I'm a man
> when... the
streets have no name.
- U2
> Base!
> How low can
you go?
> Death Row?
> Water
buffalo! - PUBLIC
ENEMY
> So baybeh if
ya feelin' good....
>
> DISCLAIMER:
THE LINES IN THIS POEM ARE NOT ORIGINAL THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL LINES
> FROM
DIFFERENT SONGS BY OTHER PEOPLE NOT ME.
> so i don't
wanna hear it ok?
> Just for
fun, how many of these lines can you identify?(singer and song!)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:34:28 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Maya Gorton wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-23 14:43:24 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
"watch which weeds you pull up
> in the same vein! ">>
>
> I just
edited you, race. It makes a strange
kind of sense this way, don't
> you think
>
--------maya.
that particular
arrangement is definitely one that consciously in my
mind but layers
and layers of others through the foggy mist and bog of
my morning
daze. i recommend the previous wording.
imagine the old
gardener and let me know what he looks like down to his
veins. you are much better at such imagination than
I.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:35:33 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments: To:
"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199706232109.OAA16732@hsc.usc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 23 Jun
1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> It's from
Visions of Cody and is part of the reading he did on the Steve
> Allen Show
(funny how Jay leno doesn't have any authors reading nowadays).
>
> "I
wrote the book cause we're all gonna die"
Ah -- yes -- also
quoteed on back cover of Penguin VOC amid collage of
Neal/Jack/etc
pics...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:48:58 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970623083601_-792219484@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 23 Jun
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> gangsta
chick in 1940's Chicago in my previous life helps. I didn't miss a
"moll"
honey. Gangsta chick is today. "Moll" is 1940.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:06:03 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Charles Bukowski discussion List
Comments: To:
chaingang@samurai.com
Comments: cc:
bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Please excuse the
following information. I don't normally like doing cross
postings to
various groups nor do I like shameless promotion, but........
<i don't this
doesn't excuse me, but what the hey!>
Anyways, several
people have contacted me off these various lists about an
email list for
the discussion of charles bukowski. I have done a web search
on him, and have
not found a list that was currently up and running. A
friend of mine
has donated his cpu time to creating a list for me for such
an event! ;)
So, if you are
interested in the discussion of Charles Bukowski (his works,
et al), please
send email
to:
listproc@bigendian.com
In the body of
the message, put:
subscribe bukowski your name <your name
being = your firstname your
lastname>
If you have any
questions, please feel free to contact me via this address
OR at
simunye@sekurity.org
thanks for your
time :)
ttfn.
Lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:37:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ketchup
In a message
dated 97-06-23 07:49:38 EDT, you write:
<<
Ginsberg's
"in the morning were stanzas of
gibberish." A Hallucination Dissertation
Manifesto of Coca, Saturn, and Sun. >>
Could you tell me
when this appeared and more about the context?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:48:06 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Hunter Thompson 6/13 in DC
Since there have
been a few inquiries of late about HST...
HST appeared at
Olesson's Books near DuPont Circle in Washington on June 13.
About 100 mostly GenX'ers were in line to
await his not all that late
arrival. HST did not sign the books, rather a
bookstore employee gave out
supposedly signed
(initials only) bookplates.
The line passed
quickly as the amazingly awestruck crowd filed past HST, a
little like
catholic peasents meeting the Pope, drink and cigarette in his
hand (funny how
the usual rules about no smaking or drinking don't apply to
celebrities, but
I'm not complaining). He traveled with several aides,
probably from the
publisher, who were there to ferry him around.
A boombox
played Donovan
tunes, very softly, circa 1967 or so.
HST had little to say
and was kinda
hard to hear, but he looks *fairly* well.
The funny thing
was that after the crowd passed, about 25 people stayed just
to watch him sit
there, doing very little. The crowd seemed
to view him from
a respectful
distance, not at all unlike a rare animal in a zoo. This was
really quite
auckward as HST mumbled a few thoughts, rarely a sentence, to
his aides and
bookstore employees as the crowd just stood there, no one
daring to get
within about 10 feet of HST, who seemed bored.
Finally, one of
the aides said "Dr. Thompson will only be here a few more
minutes, so if
anyone wants to talk to him this is your chance." That broke
the ice as the
crowd approached him, much closer.
Thompson was VERY bored
with the usual
"I love your books stuff" but he seemed a little interested
when I asked how
Gary Hart was doing ("just fine...well
considering...fine...I
saw him a few months ago...) and we talked about the
time I met him previously,
13 years ago, when I drove him around for a day
culminating in an
episode when he, for no apparent reason, grabbed the
steering wheel of
the car I was driving, disrupting the motorcade we were
in., and yelled
at me to made a sudden turn as we kinda fought over the
steering
wheel. I can't tell if HST remembered
that or not. He said
something about
he did it to protest that "negros" were not being allowed on
the campaign
plane. I said that I was talking about
1984 and that I did'nt
remember anything
about racism in the Hart campaign (OK, Hart was not
perfect, but he
certainly did not bar black folks from the plane!) HST
muttered
something like "must have been another campaign..." While he did
listen he is not
an easy guy to communicate with. A very
good looking woman
asked him if he
wanted to have a drink later, which distracted him from me
(not
surprisingly), but then an aide sort of muscled in to damper any notion
that HST would
alter or change his schedule. HST did
not protest, but looked
just a little
disappointed. I was just a little
disappointed that HST did
not acknowledge
my Lowell Celebrates Kerouac" t-shirt that I had worn for
this special
occasion. A few more, barely intelligble
musings sputtered
forth from HST, and
then the aide announced it was time to go to the
Washington Post.
The book,
"The Proud Highway" looks interesting.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:00:52 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: About to Play Solitaire
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Have finished the
chores schedule for this day and am about to relax to
some evening
solitaire on my computer Charlie (who is wearing a nice
black gangster
hat right now) with this semi-beat poem in mind.
____________
"Well, ings
die easy when nobody cares
and queens have
smiled on the gallows
and dukes have
vanished while saying their prayers
and heirs have
drowned in the shallows
and the lords have laughed while
falling in flames
and ladies have died of dishonor
and counts have exploded while sunning
in Spain
and knights have stewed in their armor
but the jack,
jack o'diamonds
jack o'diamonds
is a hard card to play.
Now cowboys die
in the arms of a friend
while the sun's
conveniently setting
and Cherokees go
to their feathery end
while everyone's
home minuetting
and generals fade very slowly away
while golfing and drinking martinis
and general's girlfriends have dropped
in the grave
while wearing highheels and bikinis
but the jack, the
jack o'diamonds,
jack o'diamonds
is a hard card to play.
Now presidents
sink on schooners-of-state
and banks have
failed from corruption
and congressman
perish at open debate
and lawyers have
choked on deductions
and rich men die from sugary food
and paupers die when they're reeling
and wise men go out in a hungover mood
and virgins die once, without feeling
but the jack,
jack o'diamonds,
jack o'diamonds
is a hard card to play."
== RICHARD
FARINA, 1966
____________________________
solitaire and
Jack
and going to Jill
for a pale of water
and dreaming of
Lily and Rosemary
but -
that is a legend
of hearts
not
diamonds or
rust.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:21:22 -0400
Reply-To: Ted Harms
<tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ted Harms
<tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Beats and
Bacon
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Having spent
untold hours playing the Kevin Bacon game (for more info, go
to
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~bct7m/bacon.html), I thought I'd just pass
along to
everybody that Jack's Bacon number is 3, Allen's is 2, and Old
Bill's number is
also 2.
Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761
"...it's
elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:20:09 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Help the beaten
Comments: To: Tom
Baylor <tbaylor@forbin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Can someone tell
my good friend Tom Baylor (see email address above) how
to subscribe to
the Beat list. I would appreciate it
very much. Also,
if it is posted
on the web please send it to me, I would like to put the
url on my link
page. Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:28:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: howling is expression of life
In a message
dated 97-06-23 09:08:46 EDT, you write:
<<
As for literature saving lives...I have never
once thought it was the
purpose.
I have never read literature, or chosen literature, on that
basis.
My life has not needed saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
one for the job if it were the case. I'm actually not even concerned
about literature as therapy. I am much more concerned with the
expression of ideas and how well ideas conveyed through
devices/technique. A good idea should be expressed in a way that
is
beyond compare...perfectly suited... an
astounding synthesis of sound
and meaning . >>
I would be dead
if it weren't for William S Burroughs.
Writing is not
only about expressing ideas but also emotions.
In fact it is
a big myth that
ideas and emotions are separate. Writing
is about finding
the right
combination of words to express exactly what you feel/think. If
you only
feel/think happy thoughts, you are only writing about half of life.
"shiny happy words" are so boring
they make me want to die.
Aesthetic Nihilism is so boring it makes me
want to die.
I think
Burroughs, for all his non-involvement in his friends' Buddhism
research, is the
one who gets it better than anyone. It's
all about balance.
just thought of
sumthing: Burroughs says he believes in the long shot. when
you're down and
been k.o.'d, you can still rise up and give one last
punch...and
that's the most beautiful thing ever.
And that's the general
condition. To
fight back. That's the strength you need
to be an artist.
When no one thinks you can do it, you show
them your creative biceps. Flex
'em. Say "yes, i HAVE been working
out". Nanny nanny boo boo, stick
your
head in doo doo.
I believe in a
more visceral definition of poetry. not
just writing pretty
words and
feelings. That's what I call "bad
art". (that's what i'd be doing
if my mommy had
been nice and stuff).
Putting it all
down so that after you read it you say "there is such
sadness...but
everything's gonna be OK. Because even
after the Apocalypse, a
little bitty
flower can bloom"
It's a basic
faith in life. But to have it you need
death too.
If you never
howl, how can you appreciate laughter?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:25:30 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re:
corso(was lies, againg, and all that existential angst)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> someone
somewhere in the endless scrolled message on this topic of
> lies/aging
etc
> said that he
wanted to know more about this 'corso guy' who is a poet who
> at times
dons the gonzo poet cap just as HST is gonzo journalism. i highly
> recommend
_elegiac feelings american_ to you, also, my favorite poem about
> marriage
> and, in
meantime here is a more reflective corso piece:
> HELLO
> it is
disastrous to be a wounded deer.
> i'm the most
wounded, wolves stalk,
> and i have
my failures, too.
> my flesh is
caught on the inevitable hook!
> as i child i
saw many things i did not want to be.
> Am i the
person i did not want to be?
> that
talks-to-himself person?
> that -
neighbours make-fun-of person?
> am i he who,
on museum steps, sleeps on his side?
> do i wear
the cloth of a man who has failed?
> am i the
looney man?
> in the great
serenade of things,
> am i the most cancelled passage?
> _______
God, that's a
great line!--am I the most cancelled passage?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:53:16 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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> Derek A.
Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
> dc (diane) and co.
> by no means am i argueing that marie's way of
composing is wrong or
> flawed
> (flod) in any way. she & i been
discussing poetry, etc for quite a
> while &
> simply approach composition of poetry in
different ways. several
>things
>at
> play - what
are you working at getting FROM yr poetry, what are you
>doing,
> etc. for
instance marie referred to herself as a "confessional" poet at
> one point
(dont remember where) and while that works for her & what she
> needs to
explore in poetry / words, it aint my bag. not that i cant
> appreciate
her poetry (exactly the opposite - in fact i'm frequently
> humbled by
her works)personally - at the moment ive been pushing around
> words on
page - words themselves - the way they *look*, feel, *act*,
>move
> on the page
almost sculpture of form not necessarily meaning. & what
>works
> best for me
is immediate interaction w/ page let the synapses fire
>where
> they may
& half (or more) falls flat - fine with me. i'll learn for
> nexttime.
the ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my
>word
>w(a)(o)nderings).
> different
ways of approaching wrds.
> same core
tho.
> its all
communication from a creator.
> derek
> It's all in the process and everyone's
process is different. I would
say that I write
in the tradition of Ginsberg, people sometimes comment
they see Blakean
and Joycean themes. I don't think I
would call it
confessional but
try to address my own personal experience in the
framework of
greater human experience. But yes, there
are a lot of I's
there and a lot
of trauma. If I was to model someone in expressing my own
voice, it would
be Ginsberg. I work toward the emotional
expression of
an idea, and not
at all ever concerned about how the words look on the
page or how they
got there, no sculpture of form, only meaning. I'm much
more concerned
with the product as opposed to the act of creating. I just
trust that the
voice of the creator will be there when I need it.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:31:50 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Kerouac's sadness
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The following
passages discuss what I find to be an interesting
comparison--as to
why Kerouac seemed to embrace hopelessness more than
Ginsberg ever
did.
>From Ginsberg
Verbatim: (GB=Gordon Ball)
AG: I keep thinking that Kerouac proposed--like
Whitman--a sort of noble
ideal American
open-minded sensibility, open road, open energy, with some
flaws in it, and
some contradictions, but nothing unresolvable with
common sense; the
direction America took was toward a military
hardheartedness
and mass murder that even he disapproved of, so the
openhearted
sensibility, the sensibility of 'the happy nut,' that Kerouac
was praising, the
openhearted sensibility that he proposed, was rejected
by the nation, so
his soul and his sense of soul was rejected, and his
art was also
rejected for that reason--not only by the hardhearted
people, but also
by, say, literate people who doubted the reality of
soul, finally,
seeing around them the great mechanical robot monster of
the nation, thinking
that force has to be met by force. So
the radical
left rejected
Kerouac's open heart, the middle-class hippie book
reviewers of The
Times rejected Kerouac's open heart, the
pseudo-bohemians
wanted sumpin' smarter and more degenerate and terrible;
the weekly news
magazines thought it was naive in the face of the giant
holocaust the
military mind created and perpetuated; so Kerouac's art was
never really
appreciated or understood or accepted, though it was the
right medicine
for the nation. So his whole sensibility
was rejected,
and I think that
crushed him in the sense of making him pessimistic,
making him
realize how really unrelievably awful American destiny was,
and I think he
just took the hint and retired from the scene, in a sense,
seeing that the
condition of American was hopeless. It's
like what
Gregory says in
his elegy for Kerouac: if Kerouac was the nation's
singer, or
prophet, or the man who sings for the nation, and if the
nation itself
dies, how can the singer live? He gave
himself to the
nation as its
singer, and the nation rejected him.
GB: The nation as a whole does not seemed to have
followed your
prescriptions
either, but your reaction has been different from
Kerouac's.
AG: Well, I know, but my development was much
slower, my maturity was
much slower than
Jack's. Jack was already mature around
1950, '51, and
had a complete
visionary conception by '53, not only visionary but
complete
metaphysical and visionary and Buddhist conception of the open
road, being on
the road, and ghosts on the road and everything, and
already had
produced like his great art work; it took me till years later
to slowly learn
from him. He went into the chaos ahead
of other people
and saw ahead of
other people and was perhaps more lonely, and was
wounded.
GB: Do you think the longer time you spent before
assuming something
like a nation
singer role might have made the difference?
AG: Except that the time has in a sense perhaps
inured me to the social
lie and made be a
part of the larger social lie of hope.
Kerouac was
essentially
hopeless, finally, saw no hope. And
having accepted that he
could, you know,
like drink himself to death. I still maintain this
perhaps false
hope. Don't wanna be moved out of my
comforts, out of my
comfortable body,
I don't know. I think it's
unanswerable. But the very
simple, tiny
point I wanna make is, as Gregory said, as the nation fell,
so did its
singer, to the extent that he was the original singer of the
open heart open
road for that generation, of the fifties, so it must make
him most raw and
vulnerable to the poisoning of the body politic.
It's his own role so what can he do,
and in a nation which is
itself so messed
up, what is he going to be--a happy singer?
Happy,
healthy singer of
a dying, decadent, destructive world?
Happy joker?
And I keep thinking I'm too comfortable
in this chamber of
horrors, so my
own future I think will be more mediative and ascetic.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:48:29 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> (apologies
in advance if this had already been posted to list, sometimes
> this list
feels like i'm playing jeopardy, to hit the send button (buzzer)
> before the
next member)
>
> I grow old...I grow old...
> I shall wear
the bottoms of my trousers rolled,
>
> Shall I part
my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
>
> I shall wear
white flannel trousers, and walk upon the
> beach
> I have heard
the mermaids singing, each to each.
>
> I do not
think they will sing to me.
Did you write
that from memory? I think I must have
been absent the day
everyone else in
the universe memorized Eliot. I just
read an interview
on Mongo's
Bearwulf's site www.ginzy.com, where Ginsberg had a nightmare
about Eliot
reading his poems.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:19:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
THIS RANT is on a
more personal note than usual so feel free to delete right
now.
my not-so-fresh
brain slurps and sloshes inside my skull as i shake my head
"no".
I'm too tired
tonight for any damn boyfriend.
That Corso poem
about marriage somehow stuck in my head all day today. I
don't know which
one scares the shit out of me more, Marriage or Aloneness.
I know some happily married people---can't be
all bad. But i would miss...
The thrill of talking to someone quietly
alone and the tension before you
confess your
affection in a kiss. God sometimes i
think that's what i live
for.
Then again, it
all goes down-hill after that. And i'm
shaking my head to
avoid the fear of
inevitably having to break his (tender young) heart after
the initial
thrill is gone. Am I the emotional
vampire i never wanted to
become?
So many nights of
rumpled sheets and i don't even remember all the names...
pale rail-thin
boys
muscly backs,
visible ribs
tattooed skin
soft dark skin
scarred arms
smooth, unmarked
skin
strong arms
green eyes
warm brown eyes
cold grey eyes
(sometimes blue)
long hair short
hair blue hair grey hair
shaved head
mmmm....skaters.
Punkers, hippies,
intellectuals, rock stars.
Mostly
disenchanted artists.
Pretending not to
love me.
Hah!
Warm hands with
long bony fingers
callusses on the
tips from playing bass/welding/typing
paint under
fingernails:
"Wash yer
damn hands before you touch me!"
good gracious,
even pierced nipples.
Could it possibly
be time to settle down with only 1?
I have a friend,
he's a writer...a real sweetheart.....
Jeesus, wha's
wrong with me. SNAP OUT OF IT!!!
My solution: go
live in ascetic seclusion in Thailand and think real hard
about something
other than this.
They should
invent "anti-sex" pills so that when you feel an inconvenient and
distracting urge
you can just pop a pill and the mere thought of sex makes
you
nauseous. now THAT would be useful.
Until then i'll
just feel like some kind of weird vampire-woman who needs
human closeness
and affection (read: sex) to survive....to keep me strong and
rejuvenated.
Without it I shrivel and wilt.
don't get me
wrong: i love my boyfriend. But I don't
want to marry him. Do
i really love
him? And if so, why do i want to kiss every boy i meet?
According to the books, i should be long past
adolescence. Someone please
tell me what the
hell is going on.
---------maya
"Confusion
is...sex"---Sonic Youth
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:28:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: howling is expression of life
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> I would be
dead if it weren't for William S Burroughs.
>
i would have to
say that i am probably on the same ship here.
as i
ended Colt-45 i
recounted how after i 'accidentally'(?) drank some
gasoline on an
unknown balcony in an Illinois winter i heard the voice
of william
burroughs quack "you can only call the doctor once". my mind
screamed out
doctor, doctor (just to test his singular theory). i
lived.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:51:28 -0500
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<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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from a jesuit
priest on the island
Remember that the
ubiquitous, everlasting and infinite power of the Lord is
a double-edged
sword.**
-leo
** whack whack,
let it bleed.
"Zeus, most
glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of whichever party
beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is poured,
and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners
possess their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You scream,
I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The air is
dark, the night is sad
I lie sleepless
and I groan
Nobody cares when
a man goes mad.
He is sorry, God
is glad.
Shadow changes
into bone,
shadow changes
into bone."
--Allen Ginsberg,
from "Interlude"
"God said to
Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on' God said
'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe but, next
time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where you want
this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:06:43 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Blah, Blah, Blah
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Strange
juxtapositions this pm. Down at Kepler's
in Menlo Park (the new
store, not the
old one where Neal used to stalk the astrology section
for
impressionable coeds). Tried to listen
for awhile to Naomi Woolfe
(sp? Wolf,
Wolfe), self proclaimed 3rd Wave Feminist reading from her
new book
"promescutities". Could stand
about five minutes thinking that
if one reversed
the sexes on any of her remarks you could get sued on
any college
campus. Walked out feeling like Rodney
King, "Can't we all
just get
along."
Home watching
Hopper and Jodie Foster in "Backtrack" where Hopper is a
sax playing
hipster hit man and Foster a kidnapped computer artist.
Silly in parts,
but a nice bit when Hopper tells Foster that what she
does isn't art.
"Art is Charlie Parker and Hieronymous Bach or whoever
he
was." Some wonderful flirting. Realized maybe sex isn't dead yet.
Only dying
slowly.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:14:31 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
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>THIS RANT is
on a more personal note than usual so feel free to delete righ=
t
>now.
>
>my
not-so-fresh brain slurps and sloshes inside my skull as i shake my head
>"no".
>I'm too tired
tonight for any damn boyfriend.
>
>That Corso
poem about marriage somehow stuck in my head all day today. I
>don't know
which one scares the shit out of me more, Marriage or Aloneness.
> I know some
happily married people---can't be all bad.
But i would miss..=
=2E
>
> The thrill of talking to someone quietly
alone and the tension before you
>confess your
affection in a kiss. God sometimes i
think that's what i live
>for.
>
>Then again,
it all goes down-hill after that. And
i'm shaking my head to
>avoid the
fear of inevitably having to break his (tender young) heart after
>the initial
thrill is gone. Am I the emotional
vampire i never wanted to
>become?
>
>So many nights
of rumpled sheets and i don't even remember all the names...
>
>pale
rail-thin boys
>muscly backs,
>visible ribs
>tattooed skin
>soft dark
skin
>scarred arms
>smooth,
unmarked skin
>strong arms
>green eyes
>warm brown
eyes
>cold grey
eyes (sometimes blue)
>long hair
short hair blue hair grey hair
>shaved head
>mmmm....skaters.
>Punkers,
hippies, intellectuals, rock stars.
>Mostly
disenchanted artists.
>Pretending
not to love me.
>Hah!
>Warm hands
with long bony fingers
>callusses on
the tips from playing bass/welding/typing
>paint under
fingernails:
>"Wash
yer damn hands before you touch me!"
>good
gracious, even pierced nipples.
>
>Could it
possibly be time to settle down with only 1?
>I have a
friend, he's a writer...a real sweetheart.....
>Jeesus, wha's
wrong with me. SNAP OUT OF IT!!!
>My solution:
go live in ascetic seclusion in Thailand and think real hard
>about
something other than this.
>
>They should
invent "anti-sex" pills so that when you feel an inconvenient a=
nd
>distracting
urge you can just pop a pill and the mere thought of sex makes
>you
nauseous. now THAT would be useful.
>
>Until then
i'll just feel like some kind of weird vampire-woman who needs
>human
closeness and affection (read: sex) to survive....to keep me strong a=
nd
>rejuvenated.
Without it I shrivel and wilt.
>
>don't get me
wrong: i love my boyfriend. But I don't
want to marry him. D=
o
>i really love
him? And if so, why do i want to kiss every boy i meet?
> According to
the books, i should be long past adolescence.
Someone please
>tell me what
the hell is going on.
>---------maya
>"Confusion
is...sex"---Sonic Youth
many possible
suggestions here: virgin birth, the beautiful permanent
longing,
intoxication,then melancholy. i wonder sometimes whether this poem
has a meaning.
The Vestal Lady
on Brattle --G. Corso
Within a delicate
grey ruin
the vestal lady
on Brattle
is up at dawn, as
is her custom,
with the raise of
a shade.
Swan-boned
slippers revamp her aging feet;
she glides within
an outer room...
pours old milk
for an old cat.
=46ull-bodied and
randomly young she clings,
peers down;
hovers over a wine filled vat,
and outstretched
arms like wings,
revels in the
image of child below.
Despaired, she
ripples a sunless finger
across the liquid
eyes; in darkness
the child spirals
down; drowns.
Pain leans her
forward--face absorbing all--
mouth upon broken
mouth, she drinks...
Within a delicate
grey ruin
the vestal lady
on Brattle
is up and about,
as is her custom,
drunk with child.
-leo
"Zeus, most
glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of whichever
party beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is poured,
and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners
possess their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You scream,
I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The air is
dark, the night is sad
I lie sleepless
and I groan
Nobody cares when
a man goes mad.
He is sorry, God
is glad.
Shadow changes
into bone,
shadow changes
into bone."
--Allen Ginsberg,
from "Interlude"
"God said to
Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on' God said
'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe but, next
time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where you want
this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:42:01 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: The Role of the Poet
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Matthew W Barton
wrote:
> . . . having
ignored the world for a spell, i hope i'm not saying
> anything
that has been said a dozen times already or ignores previous
> explanitory
statements -- however... each writer has
their own style as
> well as
method. one should not attempt to
duplicate either. because one
> author feels
drugs inversely effect their craftmanship, what leaves you to
> assume it
will adversely affect all. such blanket
statements have led
> more
scholars to dismiss the beats, new york's downtown writers and
> countless
other genres of art created in connection to drugs.
The purpose of highlighting diverse
poetics is to be able to pick and
choose and mesh
it into your own, so we are in basic agreement - even if
we don't agree
with the poetics.
The final criteria for art is if it is
*genius* - no matter what the
baggage it came
from.
Barb wrote:
> As for
literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
>
purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
> basis. My life has not needed saving...and I'm not
sure a poet is the
> one for the
job if it were the case.
The Chilean poet,
Nicanor Parra, (simple, humourous, working class -
overshadowed by
Pablo Neruda), writes:
"The poet is there to see to it
the tree does not grow crooked"
[i forget the line structure]
Ralph Waldo
Emerson writes ("The Poet" - essay):
"Poets are thus liberating
gods"
Why not? The poet
documents experience, and is a master of experience.
If he is socially
/ politically inclined - and is balanced - he should
live the life of
the boddhisatva, with his writings as his teachings.
I know this is much to ask from the
Poet, but then again, to be Poet is
to live
difficult, and this difficulty is his reward.
On another level, the Poet creates art
for art's sake - beauty. A well
written howl is
beautiful - regardless of subject matter.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:17:06 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
> Matthew W
Barton wrote:
>
> > . . .
having ignored the world for a spell, i hope i'm not saying
> >
anything that has been said a dozen times already or ignores previous
> >
explanitory statements -- however...
each writer has their own style as
> > well as
method. one should not attempt to
duplicate either. because one
> > author
feels drugs inversely effect their craftmanship, what leaves you to
> > assume
it will adversely affect all. such
blanket statements have led
> > more
scholars to dismiss the beats, new york's downtown writers and
> >
countless other genres of art created in connection to drugs.
>
> The purpose of highlighting diverse
poetics is to be able to pick and
> choose and
mesh it into your own, so we are in basic agreement - even if
> we don't
agree with the poetics.
> The final criteria for art is if it is
*genius* - no matter what the
> baggage it
came from.
>
> Barb wrote:
>
> > As for
literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
> >
purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
> >
basis. My life has not needed
saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
> > one for
the job if it were the case.
>
> The Chilean poet,
Nicanor Parra, (simple, humourous, working class -
> overshadowed
by Pablo Neruda), writes:
>
> "The poet is there to see to it
the tree does not grow crooked"
> [i forget the line structure]
>
> Ralph Waldo
Emerson writes ("The Poet" - essay):
>
> "Poets are thus liberating
gods"
>
> Why not? The
poet documents experience, and is a master of experience.
> If he is
socially / politically inclined - and is balanced - he should
> live the
life of the boddhisatva, with his writings as his teachings.
> I know this is much to ask from the
Poet, but then again, to be Poet
is
> to live
difficult, and this difficulty is his reward.
>
> On another level, the Poet creates art
for art's sake - beauty. A well
> written howl
is beautiful - regardless of subject matter.
>
> Joseph
Neudorfer
Colin Wilson
writes in the Occult
The Poet is a
man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
in most
people. While most of us are ruthlessly "cutting
out" whole
areas of
perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
retains the
faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
world "out
there."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:52:32 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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At 12:17 AM -0700
6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
> The Poet is
a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
> in most
people. While most of us are ruthlessly
"cutting out" whole
> areas of
perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
> retains the
faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
> world
"out there."
you're describing
a middle aged man, fat with glasses, insomniac, drug
dependant, all
around asshole. don't forget these kind
of fucking poets!
every word is
loud and obscene. vulger, foul,
distorted. a last breath
before a
vowel...aaaaaaah. that was it. <<hehehe>>
oh, my inner
child is screaming, "oh, my hair has been cut too short, I
must drive to
Cleveland and pick up beer hall chicks...." At this level,
everybody is
poetic. trains of thought, which you
site as being hauled off
en masse by some
anti-x faculty. I think I went to school
there. fluent
in that yada yada
way of talk. yadya yada daya
dyadya. UClA
and no attention
span. That's the kind of poet you're
describing. Is that
what you meant??
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:55:51 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Blah, Blah, Blah
In-Reply-To: <33AF55E3.1F3@pacbell.net>
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At 10:06 PM -0700
6/23/97, James Stauffer wrote:
> Strange
juxtapositions this pm. <.....>
> Realized
maybe sex isn't dead yet.
> Only dying
slowly.
I get tired
sometimes, but find the effort worth it.
dying slowly, I mean.
Queen Victoria,
where are you?
>
> J. Stauffer
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:53:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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runner911 wrote:
>
> At 12:17 AM
-0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
>
> > The
Poet is a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
> > in most
people. While most of us are ruthlessly
"cutting out" whole
> > areas
of perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
> > retains
the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
> > world
"out there."
>
> you're
describing a middle aged man, fat with glasses, insomniac, drug
> dependant,
all around asshole. don't forget these
kind of fucking poets!
> every word
is loud and obscene. vulger, foul,
distorted. a last breath
> before a
vowel...aaaaaaah. that was it. <<hehehe>>
>
> oh, my inner
child is screaming, "oh, my hair has been cut too short, I
> must drive
to Cleveland and pick up beer hall chicks...." At this level,
> everybody is
poetic. trains of thought, which you
site as being hauled off
> en masse by
some anti-x faculty. I think I went to
school there. fluent
> in that yada
yada way of talk. yadya yada daya
dyadya. UClA
>
> and no
attention span. That's the kind of poet
you're describing. Is that
> what you
meant??
>
> cheers,
Douglas
>
>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
summer
> save it,
just keep it off my wave is
> -- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
actually, the
answer would be an EMPHATIC no. The kind of poet being
described in that
quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
understood as a
word alchemist. if one accepts the power
of symbols in
shaping reality,
the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
symbolic soup is
a Real form of contemporary alchemy.
What you were
referring to is
probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
alchemist can
with some effort overcome the population of these middle
aged gentlement
in terms of pure magic.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:55:06 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Blah, Blah, Blah
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runner911 wrote:
>
> At 10:06 PM
-0700 6/23/97, James Stauffer wrote:
>
> > Strange
juxtapositions this pm. <.....>
>
> >
Realized maybe sex isn't dead yet.
> > Only
dying slowly.
>
> I get tired
sometimes, but find the effort worth it.
dying slowly, I mean.
> Queen
Victoria, where are you?
>
> >
> > J.
Stauffer
>
> cheers,
Douglas
i believe that
Queen Victoria is permanently trapped in a Leonard Cohen
lyrical tune.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:09:11 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWalk flash back to the beginning....
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I'm pretty
certain that i haven't let y'all in on the first two pieces
of FireWalk. that's kind of like stepping in after the
first act.=20
Here's the
epigrams and title piece. Colt-45 will
be coming later this
evening or
tomorrow. I really appreciate the
backchannel comments and
discussions i've
been having over this material. i'm now having
serious
thoughts about
doing an exploding text of the original firewalk
collection by
myself as a form of 5 year retrospective on those events.=20
thanks again for
all the constructive, destructive, deconstructive,
reconstructive
and just damn friendly criticisms.
david rhaesa=20
salina, Kansas
>=20
> Firewalk
Thru Madness Collection ... by David Rhaesa
> Copyright,
December 1992
>=20
> =93He was
insane. And when you look directly an an
insane man all you =
see
> is a
reflection of your own knowledge that he=92s insane, which is not =
to
> see him at
all. To see him you must see what he saw
ahd when you are
> trying to
see the vision of an insane man, an oblique route is the only
> way to come
at it.=94
> -- Robert
Pirsig
>=20
> =93One must
harbor chaos within to give birth to a dancing star=94
> -- Nietzsche
>=20
> =93I think
present-day reason is an analogue of the flat earth of the
> medieval
period. If you go too far beyond it
you=92re presumed to fall
> off, into
insanity. And people are very much
afraid of that. I think
> fear of
insanity if comparable to the fear people once had of falling
> off the edge
of the world.=94
> - Robert
Pirsig
>=20
> =93Firewalk
Thru Madness=94
>=20
> Fire -
essential eleemnt/ Holy Spirit and Cigarette Ember connecting
> wind and
death rain and life. Lightning strikes
my soul as I see the
> spark of a
new idea. strike another match start
anew Dylan says and I
> ask him if
he=92s seen her lately? He just smiles
and says Look what I=
=92ve
> done for you
lately.
>=20
> I lost your
pick and the insulin madman who gave it to me died last
> Winter. I couldn=92t go to the funeral. I was confined - mentally -
>
physically....besides I=92d only met him once.
He was playing with fir=
e.
> ... Playing
in the dark.
>=20
> Jim Morrison
turns into Smokey Beat and his breath burns a National Par=
k
> in outer
Mongolia somewhere between 18th Century princesses in phone
> booths
striking the secret code of the rapture like it=92s something wo=
rth
> waiting for.
>=20
> Burn down
the house. Burn down the
neighborhood. Universal Implosion
> and my Mom
appears on a Fire Truck, the Fire Lady she=92s called and sh=
e
> tells me not
to play with matches but is she afraid of fire because of
> her Southern
Baptist Hell-fire and damnation upbringing.
Fire is not
> evil. Fire is essential. It is the spark of life The burning candle
> that turns
body into ashes so that it can return to dust.
>=20
> To Firewalk.
>=20
> Can you
imagine Firewalking? I have friends who
have done it. They
> have
physically firewalked - not a scar on them.
But we tend to only
> see the
physiological as literal and I must look deep into your soul an=
d
> ask
>=20
> have you
ever Firewalked metaphysically?
>=20
> The FireWalk
through the mind. The FireWalk through
the soul. I have
> and there
are scars but I can=92t say I regret the journey. From the e=
nd
> of the
journey one sees Chaos and Order meet for
tea over a white
> picket
fence; Time evaporates like so much spilt milk in Tulsa at Oral
> Roberts
University; Reason and Insanity push and
shove / fight and kic=
k
> / one
dischordant tone for another until the pure sound - the sirens of
> beauty and
truth hits my ear drum -- thump, thump, thump....Om, Om,
> Om... and
the child in me looks up at the giant and asks if the Circle
> Will Be
Unbroken? and the giant smiles a reassuring smile as he kicks m=
e
> back down
the beanstalk.
>=20
> Landing at
the bottom I see the whole world anew and I smile and kick
> myself for
climbing the beanstalk in search of something when I found
> the answers
by landing on a patch of clover in my own backyard - just
> like
Dorothy. They say seek and you shall
find
>=20
> but I find
that more comes when I want not and seek not when I am at
> peace with
myself I am at peace with it all.
>=20
> The bumper
sticker
> on my mind during my
> FireWalk reads:
>=20
> =93Think Universally -
Act Intrapersonally=94.
>=20
> It is a
saying I heard one day. It came from the
Mississippi River wit=
h
> Jim and Huck
rafting by the Casino Rock Island and I tried to wave and
> tell them
that they should stop here rather than going downstream to
> slave
country and ....
>=20
> Huck looked
at me, stared me in the eye, puffed on a corncob pipe and
> spoke:
>=20
> =93You=92ve
got to face your worst fears to overcome them.
Are you afr=
aid
> of
insanity?=94
>=20
> I said no
and stepped through the door .... now the doorway has vanishe=
d
> and the
divide between Reason and Madness is bridged.
I hope you enjoy
> some images
of the FireWalk through Madness.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:36:02 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beats' pseudonyms.
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970623082238.47066A-100000@srv1.freenet.calg
ary.ab.ca>
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Derek A. Beaulieu
writes:
>
>as to the
identity of poor carlo marx lost in the weeds:
>well our own
allen ginsberg.
>the secrets
out
>there gonna
be trouble.
>keep yr
trenchcoat on yr fedora down low
>derek
>
& jack
kerouac changed the pseudonyms in each book,
a comedy seen
thru the eyes of Ti Jean, (big sur),
btw only Lorenz
Monsanto (Ferlinghetti) was the same,
other
changedcuz'book trade matter
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * be beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:37:41 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Help the beaten
In-Reply-To: <33AF2ED9.91275D8A@scsn.net>
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Tom,
u can see almost
everything 'bout yr questions at web site
(Electronic
Poetry Center)
http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/connects/lists.htm
hope this help,
---
yrs
Rinaldo * a not
competent beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:10:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970623114237.2276A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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>> Derek A.
Beaulieu wrote:
>nexttime. the
ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my word
>w(a)(o)nderings).
>different
ways of approaching wrds.
>same core
tho.
_______
revision or
tightening up structure is as much an ACT as first thought
first word
splatter/shower out of head. and sculpture is what i see as the
final part of my
works when i put them in their place on the page.
mc
who really would
like to be gonzo poet rather than 'confessional' have
decided to kick
that damn catholic girl outta my head. so auto bio is
probably more
accurate 'label' i dont write about ideas i write about my
life and all its
little adventures....
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:41:32 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: The Proud Highway
In-Reply-To:
<970623204745_-327538483@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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On Mon, 23 Jun
1997, Howard Park wrote:
> The book,
"The Proud Highway" looks interesting.
Over on the
bohemian-l they're having a summer reading group talk on Pound,
and someone
(Marie C) had expressed on talking about this one as an
alternate. It
seems maybe that this list is the better place for such a
discussion (and
Marie's on it too) so I'll repost here my thoughts after
reading the first
chapter (year 1955):
I've recently
become completely immersed in this book. These letters are as
good as many of
Hunter's fine prose works, and reading them chronologically
serves to
illuminate the years just before and during the time he "makes
it." A
valuable document indeed.
I haven't read
all of the Hunter bios that are out there, but the
introduction to
this book is the first time I've seen it spelled out in
print that
Hunter's shenanigans are almost completely fictitious. Not that
most would
believe some of it, but I've always had trouble discerning where
the line between
his fiction and reality is drawn -- well, yeah, as if there
_were_ any
"objective reality" anyway.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:47:12 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> runner911
wrote:
> >
> > At
12:17 AM -0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
> >
> > >
The Poet is a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
> > > in
most people. While most of us are
ruthlessly "cutting out" whole
> > >
areas of perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
> > >
retains the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
> > >
world "out there."
> >
> > you're
describing a middle aged man, fat with glasses, insomniac, drug
> >
dependant, all around asshole. don't
forget these kind of fucking poets!
> > every
word is loud and obscene. vulger, foul,
distorted. a last breath
> > before
a vowel...aaaaaaah. that was it. <<hehehe>>
> >
> > oh, my
inner child is screaming, "oh, my hair has been cut too short, I
> > must
drive to Cleveland and pick up beer hall chicks...." At this level,
> > everybody
is poetic. trains of thought, which you
site as being hauled off
> > en
masse by some anti-x faculty. I think I
went to school there. fluent
> > in that
yada yada way of talk. yadya yada daya
dyadya. UClA
> >
> > and no
attention span. That's the kind of poet
you're describing. Is that
> > what
you meant??
> >
> > cheers,
Douglas
> >
> >
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
summer
> > save
it, just keep it off my wave
is
> > -- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
>
> actually,
the answer would be an EMPHATIC no. The kind of poet being
> described in
that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
> understood
as a word alchemist. if one accepts the
power of symbols in
> shaping
reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
> symbolic
soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy.
What you were
> referring to
is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
> alchemist
can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
> aged
gentlement in terms of pure magic.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
I agree with
David's alchemist concept, and the idea that "the poet
retains the
faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
world 'out
there.' It actually leads to an awesome
attention span,
because one is
suddenly attentive to the smallest aspect of daily life as
a part of the
greater whole of the universe. Sometimes
that leads to
screaming but
only when encountering those who have limited their
perception of the
poet. Essentially the poet is god,
creating out of the
unknown, speaking
truth that transforms the daily experience.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:09:25 -0500
Reply-To: AARON CHIDAKEL/JMC2000
<chidake1@JEFLIN.TJU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: AARON CHIDAKEL/JMC2000
<chidake1@JEFLIN.TJU.EDU>
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <338D204E.4C4A@sk.sympatico.ca>
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Question for
whoever wants to take this one.
I've been reading
LF's "Coney Island of the Mind" (Thanks to Howard
for the sale) and
I'm really getting into it- especially "I am Waiting".
There's one part
in particular that keeps going through my head-
really like the
ring to it. "I am waiting for
retribution for
what America did
to Tom Sawyer." Being more of a
science-type
than a
literary-type and not being too well read I'm not too
sure what it
means. But I really like it.
Who can enlighten
me?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:32:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To: <33B01630.33D1@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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re: spontaneous
first thoughts and alchemical reactions through revisions
is at heart of my
writing (apologies to all who have already deleted this
poem for at least
the first or second time, it just spells out in verse
what poetry does,
my only contribution coming from actual event
Friday the 13th,
Plattsburgh, NY
Hava Java Poetry
Reading
I sit, surrounded
by men
gentle men
poet men
giving names to
the unnameable
and voice to the unspeakable,
opening themselves up,
using words as scapels.
Transcendental
alchemy
changing blood to ink-
ink filling voids with words.
I sit, suddenly
again the child i never was.
How many years
now lost?
how many fractured fine lines
hold my selves
precariously,
together?
(stifled all
these years,
fearing words would crack me open
only to find an empty shell)
tonight i sit
with these gentle men
whose poems bank the protective fire
which holds us in its ring
and the universe
cracks open
inside my soul:
it isn't just me
inside this ring
it isn't just me
inside this ring,
it isn't just me
inside this ring,
this ring of
blood and fire
the grey smoke of
the fire ring
gives birth
to metaphors stark
and shark naked facts,
as my facts
my metaphors
my grey smoke
rises and merges
with all.
the poems alchemy
begins its work,
changing blood to ink.
Suddenly,
a girl of seven,
feet dangling off the floor,
appears in my chair,
all dressed up
and no place to grow.
right now i'm
only seven
and awake long past my bed time
staying up late with boys
inside of poets'
pockets.
we speak
of hateful mothers
of hurtful fathers
and winnie the pooh.
no bitterness
remains.
in this charmed circle
this ring of fire
pain exchanged
transmutes itself
in this charmed circle,
this ring of fire,
the alchemy of
blood and pain:
souls bared,
souls shared.
it's bedtime now.
would you tuck me in now,
daddy?
- daddy isn't
here.
would you be my
fathers,
if only for tonight?
mc 6/20/97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:42:48 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
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At 1:53 AM -0700
6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
> actually,
the answer would be an EMPHATIC no. The kind of poet being
> described in
that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
> understood
as a word alchemist. if one accepts the
power of symbols in
> shaping
reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
> symbolic
soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy.
What you were
> referring to
is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
> alchemist
can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
> aged
gentlement in terms of pure magic.
yes, and my
argument for the definition of a poet would necessitate that
this
"magician" and "alchemist" spend time on the SHITLIST. Oh, god
forbid, our poet
should have a criminal record! should be
despised by a
great many. From these latest clarifications, sounds like
you're
describing some
teenage african-american, sent-up for 5-10 on crack
related
charges. Is this what you meant??? :-)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
cheers, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:47:47 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Death of a Poet
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At 11:47 AM -0700
6/24/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> I agree with
David's alchemist concept, and the idea that "the poet
> retains the
faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
> world 'out
there.' It actually leads to an awesome
attention span,
> because one
is suddenly attentive to the smallest aspect of daily life as
> a part of
the greater whole of the universe.
Sometimes that leads to
> screaming
but only when encountering those who have limited their
> perception
of the poet. Essentially the poet is
god, creating out of the
> unknown,
speaking truth that transforms the daily experience.
> DC
I think I saw
your poet in Beverly Hills, pushing his cart, and calling
all the tourists
whores and sluts. god, my ass. His long beard and
flagrant smell
matched the rags and *sheer reality* of the situation.
I'm sorry, but I
still say 'bullshit' to this type of interpretation.
You're describing
a crazy motherfucker, paranoid and utterly angst
ridden from all
the fear he perceives directed at his person.
Got
forbid he should
be a transvestite, vietnam war veteran...
Is this who
(not *what*) you
meant?? Are you prepared to limit your
list of
"beautiful"
people??
cheers, Douglas
PS: I take your poet and dip it in my coffee and
batter it with
Cherios.
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:00:53 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: question for Gerry
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Gerry (or anyone
else who cares to answer),
I'm making a list
of my favorite Kerouac quotations, and a few from
_Memory Babe_
have made the list. If you can recall
the original sources
and care to
respond, I would appreciate it very much.
You've attributed
him to having either written or said:
"We're all
whores" (254)
"Mystic
makes no mud" (255)
and, "All
the gravity and glee and wonder of their lives and their loves
was forgotten for
mere gold" (269).
thanks,
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:22:47 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Kesey web page
For all Kesey
fans, check out this new web page which details the bus trek of
the Pranksters
these months past; WWW.INTREPIDTRIPS.COM
Enjoy the ride,
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:37:38 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: life and all its little adventures...
In-Reply-To: <l03020914afd52b3204d1@[206.25.67.100]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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8bit
Marie Countryman
writes:
>>>
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>>nexttime.
the ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my word
>>w(a)(o)nderings).
>>different
ways of approaching wrds.
>>same core
tho.
>_______
>revision or
tightening up structure is as much an ACT as first thought
>first word
splatter/shower out of head. and sculpture is what i see as the
>final part of
my works when i put them in their place on the page.
>mc
>who really
would like to be gonzo poet rather than 'confessional' have
>decided to
kick that damn catholic girl outta my head. so auto bio is
>probably more
accurate 'label' i dont write about ideas i write about my
>life and all
its little adventures....
>mc
>
% %
(
)
- [ -
& &
) (
+] /
|
^ ^
@ @
#
#
+ +
*
*
\...++*
(...my
* *%$""'
life and all its
little adventures....)
talkin'bout poetry &
\
(...kick
that damn
catholic girl outta my head...)
% # !|
writing words
is sometime
like a panther
& give words
people almost
not poets,
\\
\
(...be gonzo poet
rather than
'confessional'...)
%&(!\\
i'm a gonzo
(
with re
ference to i
talian mean
i
ng
of th
e wORd gonzo as a fool,
F
O O L, -F- -O- -O- -L-
)
FOOL! FOOL!! fooOL!!!,
f
or poe
ts t
+ he ja
ils are al
ways
O
OOOOOOpen
\"\"\)
% %
(
)
- [ -
& & ==
0 ) (
+] /
|
^ ^
#000 @ @
#
#
+ ###===???
+
*
*
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:56:16 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: raining punctuation....
Comments: To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970624193738.0068ba64@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> % %
> (
)
> - [ -
> & &
> ) (
> +] /
>
|
> ^ ^
> @ @
> #
#
> +
+
> *
*
> \...++*
> (...my *
*%$""'
> life and all
its little adventures....)
> talkin'bout poetry &
> \
> (...kick
> that damn
catholic girl outta my head...)
> % # !|
> writing words
> is sometime
> like a panther
> & give words
> people almost
> not poets,
> \\
> \
> (...be gonzo
poet
> rather than
'confessional'...)
> %&(!\\
>
> i'm a gonzo
> (
> with re
> ference to i
> talian mean
> i
ng
> of th
> e wORd gonzo as a fool,
> F
O O L, -F- -O- -O- -L-
> )
> FOOL! FOOL!! fooOL!!!,
> f
> or poe
> ts t
> + he ja
> ils are al
> ways
> O
> OOOOOOpen
>
\"\"\)
> % %
> (
)
> - [ -
> & & ==
> 0 ) (
> +] /
> |
> ^ ^
> #000 @ @
> #
#
> + ###===???
+
> *
*
"for poets the jails
are always open,"
i tried to convince
garcia lorca.
but
franco wouldnt let me
speak.
and lorca held my hand and said
"no,
for poets the ails
are always open,"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:24:34 -0400
Reply-To: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970624001916_-1562490373@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
they say smack
will take the longing away. i won't
imagine that any
relationship with
any one person would satisfy your every need, nor should
it. wait to marry. must say you have an impressive list.
mwbarton.
On Tue, 24 Jun
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> THIS RANT is
on a more personal note than usual so feel free to delete right
> now.
>
> my
not-so-fresh brain slurps and sloshes inside my skull as i shake my head
>
"no".
> I'm too
tired tonight for any damn boyfriend.
>
> That Corso
poem about marriage somehow stuck in my head all day today. I
> don't know
which one scares the shit out of me more, Marriage or Aloneness.
> I know some happily married people---can't be
all bad. But i would miss...
>
> The thrill of talking to someone quietly
alone and the tension before you
> confess your
affection in a kiss. God sometimes i
think that's what i live
> for.
>
> Then again,
it all goes down-hill after that. And
i'm shaking my head to
> avoid the
fear of inevitably having to break his (tender young) heart after
> the initial
thrill is gone. Am I the emotional
vampire i never wanted to
> become?
>
> So many
nights of rumpled sheets and i don't even remember all the names...
>
> pale
rail-thin boys
> muscly
backs,
> visible ribs
> tattooed
skin
> soft dark
skin
> scarred arms
> smooth,
unmarked skin
> strong arms
> green eyes
> warm brown
eyes
> cold grey
eyes (sometimes blue)
> long hair
short hair blue hair grey hair
> shaved head
>
mmmm....skaters.
> Punkers,
hippies, intellectuals, rock stars.
> Mostly
disenchanted artists.
> Pretending
not to love me.
> Hah!
> Warm hands
with long bony fingers
> callusses on
the tips from playing bass/welding/typing
> paint under
fingernails:
> "Wash
yer damn hands before you touch me!"
> good
gracious, even pierced nipples.
>
> Could it
possibly be time to settle down with only 1?
> I have a friend,
he's a writer...a real sweetheart.....
> Jeesus,
wha's wrong with me. SNAP OUT OF IT!!!
> My solution:
go live in ascetic seclusion in Thailand and think real hard
> about
something other than this.
>
> They should
invent "anti-sex" pills so that when you feel an inconvenient and
> distracting
urge you can just pop a pill and the mere thought of sex makes
> you
nauseous. now THAT would be useful.
>
> Until then
i'll just feel like some kind of weird vampire-woman who needs
> human
closeness and affection (read: sex) to survive....to keep me strong and
> rejuvenated.
Without it I shrivel and wilt.
>
> don't get me
wrong: i love my boyfriend. But I don't
want to marry him. Do
> i really
love him? And if so, why do i want to kiss every boy i meet?
> According to the books, i should be long past
adolescence. Someone please
> tell me what
the hell is going on.
>
---------maya
>
"Confusion is...sex"---Sonic Youth
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:38:05 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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7bit
The woman with
email (Maya) wrote:
>>
According to the books, i should be long past adolescence. Someone
>> please
tell me what the hell is going on.
>
>>
"Confusion is...sex"---Sonic Youth
Just got thru
reading Doris Lessing's "Summer Before the Dark" which
deals with this
very subject matter (the aging process, the general
goings on, and
transformations). A very neurotic, deeply
thought/felt
book. I finished the 250 odd pages in about a
day. Good hunting!
cheers, Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:40:58 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: !a)n)a)a)k)a)r(c(h(y)c)0)m)e)s(B(a(c(K!
Re: raining
punctuation....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970624125103.56486A-100000@srv1.freenet.calg
ary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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..........mostOfmessageSnippedForBrevity..........pun.......
....................pun.....................................
> *
> "for poets the jails
> are always open,"
> i tried to convince
>
> garcia lorca.
>
> but
> franco wouldnt let me
> speak.
> and lorca held my hand and said
> "no,
> for poets the ails
> are always open,"
>
>
>
!a)n)a)
a)k)a) r(c(h(y )c)0)m)e)s(B(a(c(K!
!
!!
!!!#
Yo)I)i)u)yo)u)w(e(wE
%
s
%
aY
hu man we
are
hu man s we
err
under standing wo
rds
AS noT
individual wo rds
is going to
get
u very far in
unde
r standing wh
y
s om e wooooooooooooRds
are go (od &
so me are ho(err R(Id
?
^
? '
' || 00|||/\000000 $
%
10th a.
k. a.
wo
Wo WO rds
on
a pa ge
isnt' muchmuch
d
i ff er
(r
r)ent
fr omheaRing
&=&=&+
see(a=c ing the
m spo
kenBy
live peo+ Poe
ple on
a st
re(ER)et
^
'
8)() @ " /
i
dont' c any
di ff
er(R
en ce
#
#
= =
0
0^ ^ 4 $
u ar e
(rr shift (iching
(ing
any
T'ng u canName
!\\?
[
*
& $
]
* ( (
!a)n)a)
a)k)a) r(c(h(y )c)0)m)e)s(B(a(c(K!
!
!!
!!!#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:06:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: raining punctuation....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Derek A. Beaulieu
wrote:
>
> > % %
> > ( )
> > - [ -
> > & &
> > ) (
> > +] /
> >
|
> > ^ ^
> > @ @
> > # #
> > +
> +
> > *
> *
> > \...++*
> >
(...my
* *%$""'
> > life
and all its little adventures....)
> > talkin'bout poetry &
> > \
> >
(...kick
> > that
damn catholic girl outta my head...)
> > % # !|
> > writing words
> > is sometime
> > like a panther
> > & give words
> > people almost
> > not poets,
> > \\
> > \
> > (...be
gonzo poet
> > rather
than 'confessional'...)
> >
%&(!\\
> >
> > i'm a gonzo
> > (
> > with re
> > ference to i
> > talian mean
> > i
ng
> > of th
> > e wORd gonzo as a fool,
> > F
O O L, -F- -O- -O- -L-
> > )
> > FOOL! FOOL!! fooOL!!!,
> > f
> > or poe
> > ts t
> > + he
ja
> > ils are al
> > ways
> > O
> > OOOOOOpen
> >
\"\"\)
> > % %
> > (
)
> > - [ -
> > & & ==
> > 0 ) (
> > +] /
> > |
> > ^ ^
> >
#000 @ @
> > #
#
> > + ###===???
> +
> > *
> *
> "for poets the jails
> are always open,"
> i tried to convince
>
> garcia lorca.
>
> but
> franco wouldnt let me
> speak.
> and lorca held my hand and
said
> "no,
> for poets the ails
> are always open,"
Just then on a
dark and stormy night a mysterious anti-poet named
Erasura appears
on the television screen of the collective unconscious
and wipes away
all peyotic and poetic memory since the dawn of King
Arthur's ant
collection.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:10:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> At 1:53 AM
-0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
>
> >
actually, the answer would be an
EMPHATIC no. The kind of poet being
> >
described in that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
> >
understood as a word alchemist. if one
accepts the power of symbols in
> > shaping
reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
> >
symbolic soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy. What you were
> >
referring to is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
> >
alchemist can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
> > aged
gentlement in terms of pure magic.
>
> yes, and my
argument for the definition of a poet would necessitate that
> this
"magician" and "alchemist" spend time on the SHITLIST. Oh, god
> forbid, our
poet should have a criminal record!
should be despised by a
> great
many. From these latest clarifications,
sounds like you're
> describing some
teenage african-american, sent-up for 5-10 on crack
> related
charges. Is this what you meant??? :-)
>
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > salina,
Kansas
>
> cheers,
Douglas
>
> "the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
> (attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
i didn't
understand this. i'm dense at times.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 15:45:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
MIME-Version: 1.0
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RACE writ:
>
>> i didn't
understand this. i'm dense at times.
ah, good. confusion is good. To clarify, just wanted to point out that
those OUTSIDE OF
SOCIETY are also poets. that we should
assume that a
poet is god, or
even godlike. human, thank you, is how
I'll take mine.
I'll take
six. This whitebread Merlin image you
folx were presenting
just can not be
the only version of a poet that is acceptable.
Otherwise, you
limit *your* option. The big picture is
not seen and all
we have left are
"beautful" functions of an ideal that we call "poetry".
If you accept
accidents as part of the process, you have to accept more
dirt and smut, I
figure, as well. And what you see as "poetic"
and
"beautiful"
I might see otherwise. That's what I'm
saying.
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:41:49 -0400
Reply-To: NICO88@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "(Ginny Browne)"
<NICO88@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: question, ... ferlinghetti's tom
sawyer
In a message
dated 97-06-24 18:19:03 EDT, you write:
> I've been
reading LF's "Coney Island of the Mind" (Thanks to Howard
> for the sale) and I'm really getting into it-
especially "I am Waiting".
> There's one part in particular that keeps
going through my head-
> really like the ring to it. "I am waiting for retribution for
> what America did to Tom Sawyer." Being more of a science-type
> than a literary-type and not being too well
read I'm not too
> sure what it means. But I really like it.
>
Tom was always the romantic. America made
Tom beat, he was beat from
america, .. tho
you may not always be in accordance with the character (i
wasnt, i
preffered Huck) he was always looking for the purity of contentment
that you just
cant find, especially since he always had some one after him,
the cops,
parents, teachers, etc. He was more into the immediate craziness of
life, but Huck
was more a "gotta light out for the territory ahead of the
rest", i
dont know, i always related most to Huck. Tom was more a dean
moriarty and
Huck, more a sal paradise.
sorry, strayed a bit off topic...
just a thought.
-Ginny
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:57:24 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> RACE writ:
> >
> >> i
didn't understand this. i'm dense at
times.
Density is really
not even in the same food group as confusion.
both
are excuses for
misunderstanding or non=understanding but they don't
even seem to be
cousins beyond that. perhaps my
denseness is missing
something once
again.
>
> ah,
good. confusion is good. To clarify, just wanted to point out that
> those
OUTSIDE OF SOCIETY are also poets.
i don't at all
understand how this notion undermines the notion of
poetry as a
magical enterprise. of course, as
someone who is Very Much
outside of
society at least by conventional notions i feel rather deeply
that i should be
able to understand your perspective quite clearly.
unfortunately,
your words still bounce off the dense unsmoked rock which
passes for a
brain.
that we should
assume that a
> poet is god,
or even godlike. human, thank you, is
how I'll take mine.
i don't find
poet's godlike at all. quite to the
contrary, it seems
that the notion
of poetry as a natural exercise of humans from all
segments in or
out of what one defines as society, it provides a notion
of
art/expression/magic that treats individuals from all segments of
classification
fairly equally in that we all possess the power to alter
the universe
through our words. talking with a
gentleman on the porch
twenty minutes
ago. very angry. angry at landlord/boss about money.
anger was deeper
much deeper. says his brain was
destroyed thirty years
ago. i asked how.
he mumbled about car crash destroying brain and
someone in Newton
controlling his money. i said he seemed
to still have
a brain. he said it had been erased. i said sometimes i thought that
would be a
blessing. he looked me in the eye and
shook his head a firm
no. he was a very very powerful poet to my
mind. His name is Barry.
> I'll take
six. This whitebread Merlin image you
folx were presenting
> just can not
be the only version of a poet that is acceptable.
i believe that
your stereotyping the alchemist as a Merlinesque figure.
perhaps that is
part of the difficulty with contemporary society's
definitions
altogether. we try to protect those of
us on the outside by
saying they have
a voice but in the they-ness of this defense those of
us on the outside
are once again made outsiders and perhaps in a
fundamentally
more pernicious way. why can't Barry or
i be considered
an alchemist?
> Otherwise,
you limit *your* option. The big picture
is not seen and all
> we have left
are "beautful" functions of an ideal that we call "poetry".
My big picture
goes into recesses of the abyss that are from from the
portrait you are
painting here. sometimes i honestly wish
it didn't
that i could have
the beautiful people worldview. my
experiences in
life no longer
make that a realistic option.
>
> If you
accept accidents as part of the process, you have to accept more
> dirt and
smut, I figure, as well.
You may recall in
"Yahtzee" my position seems to me to be that
acceptance of
accidents and non-acceptance of accidents are
fundamentally
belief in the exact same thing.
And what you see
as "poetic" and
>
"beautiful" I might see otherwise.
That's what I'm saying.
and that is why
you are an alchemist as well.
sincerely,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>
> >>
david rhaesa
> >>
salina, Kansas
>
> cheers,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:04:49 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Eastward Journey
Comments: cc:
kron_m@ns1.halny.hitachi.com, Karen_Gyenis@rld.bofa.com
Well, I have
started the eastward journey, leaving Eureka, CA (named for the
goldminers),
stopped off in San Francisco. Large full moon was rising, but
missed the great
view of it rising over the golden gate bridge. Stopped off
on Saturday night
at Vesuvio's, had a beer, the place was filled with
tourists (like
me) who were just soaking in the ambiance. Vesuvio's is next
door to City
Lights Book store, and has a bunch of Kerouac and other
poet/writers
photos and posters. I've done most of
North Beach in the past,
including
Swenson's Ice Cream, where Kerouac used to get his Rocky Road (this
is just around
the corner from where he used to live in Neal and Carolyn's
attic).
Sunday drove down
Route 101 to Route 1, Pacific Coast Hiway, and stopped off
at many of the
fine beaches that line the coast. The hiway here is not as
nice as up near
Monterey, but still some good beaches. Went through Santa
Barbara, Ventura,
Leo Carillo Beach, Malibu. Saw them film BAYWATCH (saw some
pert action).
Stopped off, of
course, in Venice Beach, home of the cheap sunglasses. There
is a guy there
that jumps on glass-- takes him 1 hour and lots of dollars to
do it but great
gab; a one man band-- he playes the bass guitar with his
feet, saxaphone,
and drum sticks on his arms; and cool polyester dresses. Oh
yeah, muscle
beach which is really a new modern building-- years ago it was
just a small
chain-linked fenced-in area with old heavy weights and big bulky
guys with lots of
tattoos. In general, on Venice Beach you see a lot of
tattoos and
pierced body parts.
On Malibu Beach
saw somebody making concentric circles in the sand, spilling
red dust into the
circles, with a small gathering of men, all in blue, with
drums. I think
they were trying to make reservations on Halle Bob.
Today trying to
decide the general route east. We have no plan, but are
planning a
southern route since we want to spend a couple of days in
Narlens-- you
have to stay at least a couple of day because you have to sober
up before you
continue driving. Does anybody know the address of where
Burroughs lived
in Algiers (which is just across the Mississippi River)?
Maybe drive to
Las Vegas tomorrow (already one day behind on the trip but how
is that possible
if I don't have any schedule) but no money to gamble with.
Or I could take all
the gas money and parley it. I had this dream once to bet
on 39 rouge (in
roulette).
Right now at a
friends house and swimming in their pool.
Wish I had air
conditioner in the car. And I have to remember to buy milk.
Later, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:13:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: privately raving in the aethenum
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
THIS IS NOT A
GUILT TRIP (johnny rotten: "this
is not a love song"
albeit briefly)
or
warm voice / cold
voice
I
come to your
office
weekly
50 minutes
out of all the
minutes
remaining in the
week
it
seems hardly
barely
not
enough
i panic,
overflowing,
screaming, throw
us a rope!
or,
quick switchz:
>>>>>>>>>>ah
go fuck yrself
II
i
gotta get down
from this cross
i've been riding
all these long
days
but, as long as
i'm at it,
sit up and hear
the truth!
i can't pay you
and in the
economics of therapy
hierarchies
thrive
money talks, or
lets others talk for hours and years
no silver crosses
your palm
hierarchies are
maintained:
we are on
c-rations:
the one 50 minute
hour
III
"be grateful
for what you've got!
rants the mother
in my head
yep she's still
up there
rent free.
talk family
economics!
when we spoke
last week
on the phone
your warm voice
disappeared!
and a laconic
attitude seemed to take its place
an 'oh well'
said in an 'oh
well' sort of voice
guilty of
everything
i
can't pull away
from my reaction
your sound advice
cold voice
dog in the background
(it was very
obvious
lots of quiet/no
speak moments
(that i had
intruded)
obvious
that the week
holds 50 minutes
for me.
no difference.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:53:19 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: howling is expression of life
Maya:
I forwarded your
post to James Grauerholz at Burroughs Communications.
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:00:23 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
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RACE writ:
>>
unfortunately, your words still bounce off the dense unsmoked rock which
>> passes
for a brain.
perhaps it is my
brain that is smoked like rock. But no,
that actually
is not true. Smoked like salmon, perhaps, but rock, no....
>> i don't
find poet's godlike at all. quite to the
contrary, it seems
Well, god. I mean, good.
I can't stand idolizing. If the
poet needs a
position in the
hierarchy of society, let us not forget the down and
out, as
well. Surely this is Beat
Manifesto?? That's what I was
saying. Personally, I'd rather discuss form,
structure, anything else
than position in
society. fuck that. Or perhaps I'm not ready to
discuss
this. That perhaps, is closer to the
truth. As Kenny Rogers
would say about
gambling, now is not the time or place.
I'll wait until
the deal is done,
thank you.
>> You may
recall in "Yahtzee" my position seems to me to be that
>>
acceptance of accidents and non-acceptance of accidents are
>>
fundamentally belief in the exact same thing.
I didn't follow
that thread, sorry. If you're talking
polemics, sure,
you're probably
right about this equation. But in the
normal everyday
occurrence of
things, we try to do what is quote unquote "right" and
oftentimes forget
or avoid anything else. As far as
intention goes, I
figure the two
are very different.
>> and that
is why you are an alchemist as well.
and you, as well,
sir. Yet, I would resist placing such a
label on
myself at this
time. I feel like the owner of Kentucky
fried chicken
store, greasy,
tired, and eager to get out of the whole "chicken and
egg"
question quick. Smells like adrenaline,
aluminum, death. Just
feed me and let
me cuddle up beside you, dear. I will
fight the rush
hour gladiators
for god and country in the morning, I promise.
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
>>>
cheers, Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:59:01 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> RACE writ:
>
> >>
unfortunately, your words still bounce off the dense unsmoked rock which
> >>
passes for a brain.
>
> perhaps it
is my brain that is smoked like rock.
But no, that actually
> is not
true. Smoked like salmon, perhaps, but
rock, no....
>
> >> i
don't find poet's godlike at all. quite
to the contrary, it seems
>
> Well,
god. I mean, good. I can't stand idolizing. If the poet needs a
> position in
the hierarchy of society, let us not forget the down and
> out, as
well. Surely this is Beat
Manifesto?? That's what I was
> saying. Personally, I'd rather discuss form,
structure, anything else
> than
position in society. fuck that. Or perhaps I'm not ready to
> discuss
this. That perhaps, is closer to the
truth. As Kenny Rogers
> would say
about gambling, now is not the time or place.
I'll wait until
> the deal is
done, thank you.
>
> >> You
may recall in "Yahtzee" my position seems to me to be that
> >>
acceptance of accidents and non-acceptance of accidents are
> >>
fundamentally belief in the exact same thing.
>
> I didn't
follow that thread, sorry. If you're
talking polemics, sure,
> you're
probably right about this equation. But
in the normal everyday
> occurrence
of things, we try to do what is quote unquote "right" and
> oftentimes
forget or avoid anything else. As far as
intention goes, I
> figure the
two are very different.
>
> >> and
that is why you are an alchemist as well.
>
> and you, as
well, sir. Yet, I would resist placing
such a label on
> myself at
this time. I feel like the owner of
Kentucky fried chicken
> store,
greasy, tired, and eager to get out of the whole "chicken and
> egg"
question quick. Smells like adrenaline,
aluminum, death. Just
> feed me and
let me cuddle up beside you, dear. I
will fight the rush
> hour
gladiators for god and country in the morning, I promise.
>
> >>
david rhaesa
> >>
salina, Kansas
>
> >>>
cheers, Douglas
> >
i was quite
unclear. it was my brain not yours that
i was referring to
as rock-like.
not certain that
i'm up for cuddling but would be more than happy to
share some
Kentucky Fried anytime you're in town.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:04:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
An old and mutual
acquaintance of mine and Ginsberg brought this quote to my
from the NY Times
and wanted to know why? Any answers.
In, short brains
and minds, like neurons and ideas, demand separate and
different levels
of discourse.
NY Times Book
Review, The Talking Cure, reviewed by Richard Retak , Sunday,
June 22nd.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:16:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Cuddle
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>david rhaesa
of salina, Kansas writ:
>>not
certain that i'm up for cuddling but would be more than happy to
>> share
some Kentucky Fried anytime you're in town.
>
But *all* poets
cuddle!! didn't you know?? ;-) This is the true
function and
ultimate goal of a Poet. better than a
can opener. better
than a 57
chevy. Cuddles by a poet trained in the
art and technique can
be quite
heavenly!!
Can I have a
witness? I say, can I have a witness?!?
Hallelujah...
>Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:20:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From: Pamela Beach Plymell[SMTP:CVEditions@AOL.COM]
>
>> In,
short brains and minds, like neurons and ideas, demand separate and
>>
different levels of discourse.
Well, my
understand of the question: there's the
animal "brain" and the
human
"mind". One is more or less
predetermined and the other left up
to invent for
it's own sake.
expressions: "We are of one mind" vs "oh my
god, my brain is killing
me..."
>> Charles
Plymell
Douglas (who has
yet another hour of "work" left.... ug)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:17:39 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
Blah, Blah, Blah
In a message
dated 97-06-24 13:20:41 EDT, you write:
<< Some
wonderful flirting. Realized maybe sex
isn't dead yet.
Only dying slowly. >>
I had a young
lady help me work on my manuscript today. Fresh picked flowers
were on the
windowsill. I burned three kinds of incense. Listened to Elmore
James and the
Sweet Inspirations. And we smoked a little. By the time Pam
came home I
almost had her dressed in pieces of fine leather from my dad's
briefcase he got
in Aztec country. She is the kind of beauty that a decadent
lifestyle only
makes more beautiful. I asked her if she wanted to make a
movie of Thongs
by Alexander Trocchi and if she could bear a heavy cross. I
was sifting
through the pile of downloads for Dennis Hopper's address to ask
for his input. It
was a kind of rainy cool day and the hanging petunias were
bright.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:32:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: How to love a woman long distance...
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As long as we're
talking advice, flirting, and sex, perhaps someone
would like to
take a stab at this dilemma:
"How to best
love a woman who lives 125 miles away?"
Please respond in
a BEAT manner. cheers, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 17:55:32 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
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>From: Patricia Elliott[SMTP:pelliott@sunflower.com]
>> any
knowledge. no getter courtship than laughter and tears.
ok, still at
work. tried calling, but got a message
saying, "no longer
in
service". :-( <<laugh>> I must have the wrong number! Hopefully
it gets
"getter" than this. Or I'm
really gonna cry...
>> p
>thanx,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:59:22 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> As long as
we're talking advice, flirting, and sex, perhaps someone
> would like
to take a stab at this dilemma:
>
> "How to
best love a woman who lives 125 miles away?"
>
> Please
respond in a BEAT manner. cheers,
Douglas
>
> "the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
> (attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
buy her a
standard transmission car ??????
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:44:55 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To: <33AF8B11.23B9@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 1:53 AM -0700
6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
> actually,
the answer would be an EMPHATIC no. The kind of poet being
> described in
that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
> understood
as a word alchemist. if one accepts the
power of symbols in
> shaping
reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
> symbolic
soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy.
What you were
> referring to
is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
> alchemist
can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
> aged
gentlement in terms of pure magic.
yes, and my
argument for the definition of a poet would necessitate that
this
"magician" and "alchemist" spend time on the SHITLIST. Oh, god
forbid, our poet should
have a criminal record! should be
despised by a
great many. From these latest clarifications, sounds like
you're
describing some
teenage african-american, sent-up for 5-10 on crack related
charges. Is this what you meant??? :-)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:27:35 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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Diane Carter
wrote:
Essentially the poet is god, creating out of
the
> unknown,
speaking truth that transforms the daily experience.
> DC
Guys, it's been a
long day. A poet is a person who can write poetry.
Tautalogical as
it may sound. Has more to do with
craftsmanship than
divinity. A "maker" of verse. A singer of
stories.
In our world a
poet is someone who can get at least a few other people
to agree that
what he or she does is poetry. Does
anyone seriously
think that
Chaucer or Pope, for example, every
thought of themselves as
Gods or
Alchemists?
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:20:28 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: my bad poem delete
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say it ain't so
a poem can't make
peace work, only missles
can't save lifes,
makes you feel nice
nice people
saying nice things.
not the chance
line of real truth coming from
that horrible
smelly homeless loser.
justify that
life, do they make a paycheck
priest of garbage
i would rather my
poets were within the frame,
maybe right after a good game.
life is hard and
dark and evil,and full of random love
why know
clean noses is it,
that the truth.
that resistance to antbiotics might mean
end of woman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:17:03 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Death of a Poet
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> At 11:47 AM
-0700 6/24/97, Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > I agree
with David's alchemist concept, and the idea that "the poet
> > retains
the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
> > world
'out there.' It actually leads to an
awesome attention span,
> > because
one is suddenly attentive to the smallest aspect of daily life as
> > a part
of the greater whole of the universe.
Sometimes that leads to
> >
screaming but only when encountering those who have limited their
> >
perception of the poet. Essentially the
poet is god, creating out of the
> >
unknown, speaking truth that transforms the daily experience.
> > DC
>
> I think I
saw your poet in Beverly Hills, pushing his cart, and calling
> all the
tourists whores and sluts. god, my
ass. His long beard and
> flagrant
smell matched the rags and *sheer reality* of the situation.
> I'm sorry,
but I still say 'bullshit' to this type of interpretation.
> You're
describing a crazy motherfucker, paranoid and utterly angst
> ridden from
all the fear he perceives directed at his person. Got
> forbid he
should be a transvestite, vietnam war veteran... Is this who
> (not *what*)
you meant?? Are you prepared to limit
your list of
>
"beautiful" people??
>
> cheers,
Douglas
>
> PS: I take your poet and dip it in my coffee and
batter it with
> Cherios.
>
> "the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
> (attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
I think you
missed my point or perhaps I missed your's.
The idea of the
poet/artist as
god creating a work out of nothing does not have much to
do with any
stratus of society. And I have no idea
where your idea of
fear comes
in. The poet may be a whore, a crazy
motherfucker, a
transvestite, a
vietnam war veteran, a college professor, or the
president of
general motors, for all I care about his background or where
he/she is seen on
the ladder of social importance, inside or outside of
society. Writing
a poem is a creative act, and in that act, man becomes
godlike, creating
form and substance out of nothingness.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:57:29 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Blah, Blah, Blah
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-24 13:20:41 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
Some wonderful flirting. Realized maybe
sex isn't dead yet.
> Only dying slowly. >>
> I had a
young lady help me work on my manuscript today. Fresh picked flowers
> were on the
windowsill. I burned three kinds of incense. Listened to Elmore
> James and
the Sweet Inspirations. And we smoked a little. By the time Pam
> came home I
almost had her dressed in pieces of fine leather from my dad's
> briefcase he
got in Aztec country. She is the kind of beauty that a decadent
> lifestyle
only makes more beautiful. I asked her if she wanted to make a
> movie of
Thongs by Alexander Trocchi and if she could bear a heavy cross. I
> was sifting
through the pile of downloads for Dennis Hopper's address to ask
> for his
input. It was a kind of rainy cool day and the hanging petunias were
> bright.
> Charles
Plymell
Sort of restores
one's faith that the good things don't die.
Always
appreciate
Dennis's work and a little leather and Elmore James
The kind of
beauty that decadence enhances if rare and wonderful indeed.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:58:10 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: the blood of a poet
Has anyone seen
this delightful film ('Le Sang D'un Poete') by Jean Cocteau?
It's really
early, like 1915 or something. Black and
white. It is 'beat'
through and
through, if such a label applies to a broader style and not to a
group of
people. does anyone know if it is
mentioned anywhere that the beats
were influenced
by him? It looks the way I imagine a WSB
novel would look on
film. Is anybody here familiar with him?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:35:09 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Guys, it's
been a long day. A poet is a person who can write poetry.
> Tautalogical
as it may sound. Has more to do with
craftsmanship than
>
divinity. A "maker" of verse.
A singer of stories.
>
> In our world
a poet is someone who can get at least a few other people
> to agree
that what he or she does is poetry. Does
anyone seriously
> think that
Chaucer or Pope, for example, every
thought of themselves as
> Gods or
Alchemists?
>
> J Stauffer
I don't know, but
I bet Blake and Ginsberg did. Why can't
divinity be
found/invoked? in
the craftmanship of creating?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:46:04 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970624224558Z-4505@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
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"Penn,
Douglas, K" wrote
>RACE writ:
>>
>>> i
didn't understand this. i'm dense at
times.
>
>ah,
good. confusion is good. To clarify, just wanted to point out that
>those OUTSIDE
OF SOCIETY are also poets. that we
should assume that a
>poet is god,
or even godlike. human, thank you, is
how I'll take mine.
>I'll take
six.
i'll take two
dozen in lime green.
-leo
"Zeus, most
glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of whichever
party beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is poured,
and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners
possess their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You scream,
I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The air is
dark, the night is sad
I lie sleepless
and I groan
Nobody cares when
a man goes mad.
He is sorry, God
is glad.
Shadow changes
into bone,
shadow changes
into bone."
--Allen Ginsberg,
from "Interlude"
"God said to
Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on' God said
'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe but, next
time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where you want
this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:12:18 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970625002002Z-4550@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
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>>From: Pamela Beach Plymell[SMTP:CVEditions@AOL.COM]
>>
>>> In,
short brains and minds, like neurons and ideas, demand separate and
>>>
different levels of discourse.
>
>Well, my
understand of the question: there's the
animal "brain" and the
>human
"mind". One is more or less
predetermined and the other left up
>to invent for
it's own sake.
>
I believe that
humans retain the reptilian and mammalian portions of the
brain, which are
more instinct driven, and also possess the neo-cortex, the
portion of the
brain which is uniquely human, the part which works to
create images for
us when we read. incidentally, thank god the animals
can't write
poetry or think what kind of mess we'd be in.
-leo
"Zeus, most
glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of whichever
party beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is poured,
and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners
possess their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You scream,
I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The air is
dark, the night is sad
I lie sleepless
and I groan
Nobody cares when
a man goes mad.
He is sorry, God
is glad.
Shadow changes
into bone,
shadow changes
into bone."
--Allen Ginsberg,
from "Interlude"
"God said to
Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on' God said
'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe but, next
time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where you want
this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:17:10 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Huck
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In response to:
> . . .
America made Tom beat . . .
Naw, man. America
made Tom a dope. Our good friend Huck was the original
American
archetype - he had that twitch that kept him restless, on the
go.
Here's a poem for
the shoeless boy:
The IT FANTASTIC
Make the best
o things the way you find em, says I that s my motto.
This ain t no bad
thing we ve struck here plenty grub and an easy
life come, give
us your hand . . . and less all be friends.
-Huck
enjoy the ride
we hear it
go by downstream
the Mississippi
we see it
go by downstream
on raft /
canoe
with all its
adventures
and all its
creations
and all its
foundations
enjoy the ride
it, enjoy it
become of it
embrace it
it will come
it is familiar
it is
because
Huck knew of it
without knowing it
can we say
he dug it?
we can
cause he was /
is it
[this is
primarily a performance piece, very simple to the point - BTW,
'it' should all
be in italics - the phrasing is stretched with 'it']
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:58:34 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> RACE writ:
>
> >>
unfortunately, your words still bounce off the dense unsmoked rock which
> >>
passes for a brain.
>
> perhaps it
is my brain that is smoked like rock.
But no, that actually
> is not
true. Smoked like salmon, perhaps, but
rock, no....
>
> >> i
don't find poet's godlike at all. quite
to the contrary, it seems
>
> Well,
god. I mean, good. I can't stand idolizing. If the poet needs a
> position in
the hierarchy of society, let us not forget the down and
> out, as
well. Surely this is Beat
Manifesto?? That's what I was
> saying. Personally, I'd rather discuss form,
structure, anything else
> than
position in society. fuck that. Or perhaps I'm not ready to
> discuss
this. That perhaps, is closer to the
truth. As Kenny Rogers
> would say
about gambling, now is not the time or place. I'll wait until
> the deal is
done, thank you.
>
> >> You
may recall in "Yahtzee" my position seems to me to be that
> >>
acceptance of accidents and non-acceptance of accidents are
> >>
fundamentally belief in the exact same thing.
>
> I didn't follow
that thread, sorry. If you're talking
polemics, sure,
> you're
probably right about this equation. But
in the normal everyday
> occurrence
of things, we try to do what is quote unquote "right" and
> oftentimes
forget or avoid anything else. As far as
intention goes, I
> figure the
two are very different.
>
> >> and
that is why you are an alchemist as well.
>
> and you, as
well, sir. Yet, I would resist placing
such a label on
> myself at
this time. I feel like the owner of
Kentucky fried chicken
> store,
greasy, tired, and eager to get out of the whole "chicken and
> egg"
question quick. Smells like adrenaline,
aluminum, death. Just
> feed me and
let me cuddle up beside you, dear. I
will fight the rush
> hour
gladiators for god and country in the morning, I promise.
>
> >>
david rhaesa
> >>
salina, Kansas
>
> >>>
cheers, Douglas
David...
"Just feed me and let me cuddle up beside you, dear. I will
fight the rush
hour gladiators for god and country in the morning. I
promise." Thanks...I needed to smile today.
Barb
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:03:13 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Role of the Cuddle
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> >david
rhaesa of salina, Kansas writ:
>
> >>not
certain that i'm up for cuddling but would be more than happy to
> >>
share some Kentucky Fried anytime you're in town.
> >
> But *all*
poets cuddle!! didn't you know??
;-) This is the true
> function and
ultimate goal of a Poet. better than a
can opener. better
> than a 57
chevy. Cuddles by a poet trained in the
art and technique can
> be quite
heavenly!!
>
> Can I have a
witness? I say, can I have a witness?!?
>
>
Hallelujah...
>
> >Douglas
Cuddles with a
poet? hmmm...I've been known to cuddle
up with a good
book of poetry.
but despite the art and technique of the professional
cuddle, have
ended up battered by corners of dark thought and newly
dimpled by
sharp-witted lines...not heavenly...but good
nonetheless...and
better for having slept on it.
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:42:32 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: howling is expression of life
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Marioka7@aol.com
wrote:
>
> dear barb..
>
> I am so sorry. I never meant to come off
as critical of you and your
> values. I admire the fact that you are happy and
confident in your
>
lifestyle. And I certainly do not
glorify drug use, suicide,
>
self-annihilation and the like. I am
merely interested in it because it
> seems to be
the general condition of my peers. In
fact, i have repeatedly
> raged
against it on this list, perhaps before you signed on. Of course
> self-imposed
misery and pain are ridiculous. If you
knew me, you would see
> that i am a
basically happy person. But as for the
kind of poetry I like
> (and this
may be purely a question of taste, in which case it is natural for
> you not to
agree) I suppose i do prefer poets that speak of important
> spiritual
matters while at the same time playing with words and creating
> beauty. A specific feeling or thought that has behind
it a larger truth.
> If you review my previous messages you
will see that i am actually quite
> critical of
Ginsberg. In fact, in one message i
argued that Eliot was the
> better poet.
> I certainly do have the
"strength" to meet this lifestyle.
I am a
> teacher
myself.
> I meant no
disrespect to you and i hope that you will write this off as a
>
misunderstanding. if you would like to
discuss the artistic and literary
> merits and
innovations of William Burroughs, i am up for it, and believe me,
> there is a
lot to say. I would take pleasure in
convincing you of his place
> in literature.
>
------------------------------------maya
>
>Maya,
Thank you for that response (gosh! I
feel so warm and fuzzy, I think
I'll write a
poem about eating a peach...Whoops..I
dare say it's been
done..) Sincerely, it did much to alleviate my
feelings of complete
pissiness and
irksomeness, whose comparable intensity index would be
three days prior
to my period, correlating with a full moon in the lunar
cycle, after
ingesting 8,047% more sodium than the daily recommended
doses by the
FDA. In fact, was about to write a
parody of Lady
Lazarus..except
of course...the peanut munching beat crowd is waiting
for me to slit my
wrists, not rise again *L*. Anyhow,
thanks...because
I really didn't
want to write that particular poem...would rather drink
some beer, using
it as a dirutic for all that salt.
I think I'll stay awhile *grin*....if only to annoy everyone (could
have used it in
the Lady Lazarus schpiel).
Thanks again,
A dissenting
voice among the dissenting voices
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 00:36:01 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Berkeley summer '86
happy summer
everyone!
I was
effervescing not too long ago about the transplendent summer I
hitchhiked to
Berkeley in the summer of '86. Well, I finally transcribed my
journal from that
magical summer and put it on my web site. It may take a
minute or two to
download because I put it all on one HTML page, but its
not the type of
thing you can chop up too well. You'll know what I mean.
http://www.wolfenet.com/~malcolm/berkeley.htm
enjoy!
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:54:52 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To: <33B050D4.2112@midusa.net>
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poet is not god;
homer wrote of the gods had no claim to anything else. all
begins with early
writings of men writing about gods
healing gods
embedded in ritual and alchemical process does not make poet god
it isn't just me
inside this ring
i itsn't just me
inside this ring
it isn't just me
inside this ring
this ring of
blood and fire....
....the poems
alchemy
begins its work
changing blood to ink
taking the
spiritual inner experience
and putting it to
paper, is i think, a singularly mortal task. universal.
no god best god.
gone
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 07:05:02 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To:
<l03010d00afd601709bb2@[204.248.112.70]>
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"but to live
outside the law you must be honest"
i think bob dylan
sed that.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:33:36 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
In a message
dated 97-06-24 02:50:45 EDT, you write:
"Watch which
weeds you pull up in the same vein"
<<
imagine the old gardener and let me know what
he looks like down to his
veins.
you are much better at such imagination than I.
>>
He looks like
WIlliam Burroughs, of course. He means
'don't pull up ALL the
weeds cause some
of them may be good'. Just like there
are some good things
running through
your veins and some bad. Bad blood. but that doesn't mean
you should cut
your wrists and bleed yourself to death.
That's like throwing
out the baby with
the dishwater or something.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:11:02 -0400
Reply-To: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew W Barton <mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eastward Journey
Comments: To:
Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970624190448_537399705@emout11.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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appreciate the
running road guide. couldn't imagine
taking a computer on
the cross country
treck, much less signing on to sing it.
buy you a drink
when you get to
nyc.
mwbarton.
On Tue, 24 Jun
1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:
> Well, I have
started the eastward journey, leaving Eureka, CA (named for the
> goldminers),
stopped off in San Francisco. Large full moon was rising, but
> missed the
great view of it rising over the golden gate bridge. Stopped off
> on Saturday
night at Vesuvio's, had a beer, the place was filled with
> tourists
(like me) who were just soaking in the ambiance. Vesuvio's is next
> door to City
Lights Book store, and has a bunch of Kerouac and other
> poet/writers
photos and posters. I've done most of
North Beach in the past,
> including
Swenson's Ice Cream, where Kerouac used to get his Rocky Road (this
> is just
around the corner from where he used to live in Neal and Carolyn's
> attic).
>
> Sunday drove
down Route 101 to Route 1, Pacific Coast Hiway, and stopped off
> at many of
the fine beaches that line the coast. The hiway here is not as
> nice as up
near Monterey, but still some good beaches. Went through Santa
> Barbara,
Ventura, Leo Carillo Beach, Malibu. Saw them film BAYWATCH (saw some
> pert
action).
>
> Stopped off,
of course, in Venice Beach, home of the cheap sunglasses. There
> is a guy
there that jumps on glass-- takes him 1 hour and lots of dollars to
> do it but
great gab; a one man band-- he playes the bass guitar with his
> feet,
saxaphone, and drum sticks on his arms; and cool polyester dresses. Oh
> yeah, muscle
beach which is really a new modern building-- years ago it was
> just a small
chain-linked fenced-in area with old heavy weights and big bulky
> guys with
lots of tattoos. In general, on Venice Beach you see a lot of
> tattoos and
pierced body parts.
>
> On Malibu
Beach saw somebody making concentric circles in the sand, spilling
> red dust
into the circles, with a small gathering of men, all in blue, with
> drums. I
think they were trying to make reservations on Halle Bob.
>
> Today trying
to decide the general route east. We have no plan, but are
> planning a
southern route since we want to spend a couple of days in
> Narlens--
you have to stay at least a couple of day because you have to sober
> up before you
continue driving. Does anybody know the address of where
> Burroughs
lived in Algiers (which is just across the Mississippi River)?
>
> Maybe drive
to Las Vegas tomorrow (already one day behind on the trip but how
> is that
possible if I don't have any schedule) but no money to gamble with.
> Or I could
take all the gas money and parley it. I had this dream once to bet
> on 39 rouge
(in roulette).
>
> Right now at
a friends house and swimming in their pool.
>
> Wish I had
air conditioner in the car. And I have to remember to buy milk.
>
> Later,
Attila
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:39:18 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To: <l0302090cafd6726be666@[206.25.67.125]>
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>"but to
live outside the law you must be honest"
>i think bob
dylan sed that.
>mc
he also said,
"in Jersey everything's legal, as long as you don't get caught=
"
-leo
"Zeus, most
glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of whichever
party beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is poured,
and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners possess
their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You scream,
I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The air is
dark, the night is sad
I lie sleepless
and I groan
Nobody cares when
a man goes mad.
He is sorry, God
is glad.
Shadow changes
into bone,
shadow changes
into bone."
--Allen Ginsberg,
from "Interlude"
"God said to
Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on' God said
'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe but, next
time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where you want
this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:03:00 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: if God is Pooh Bear, is Piglet St.
Michael?
Hmmmmm....I'm
reading _Off the Road_, & in chapter 40 Carolyn Cassady
includes part of
a letter from Jack, written in 1954, I believe, & one of
the lines
goes....
"Let me know
about the little ones who know that God is Pooh-Bear and that
the rainbow went
in the water...."
Reminded me of
the God is Pooh-Bear conversation a few months back...
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:32:06 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: the blood of a poet
In-Reply-To:
<970624225724_1722108478@emout15.mail.aol.com>
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At 7:58 PM -0700
6/24/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> Has anyone
seen this delightful film ('Le Sang D'un Poete') by Jean Cocteau?
> It's really
early, like 1915 or something. Black and
white. It is 'beat'
> through and
through, if such a label applies to a broader style and not to a
> group of
people. does anyone know if it is
mentioned anywhere that the beats
> were
influenced by him? It looks the way I
imagine a WSB novel would look on
> film. Is anybody here familiar with him?
I always get the
film confused with "Orpheus" (also by Cocteau?). Love the
two scene (from
either movie) where Orpheus is tuning the radio to hear
sounds from the
dead side, and then, love the scene where he travels thru a
plane of water (blood?)
to reach it.
If I reach, and
completely malign my memory, perhaps one could draw
similarities to
WSB's "towers open fire"??
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:33:09 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>As long as
we're talking advice, flirting, and sex, perhaps someone
>would like to
take a stab at this dilemma:
>
>"How to
best love a woman who lives 125 miles away?"
>
>Please
respond in a BEAT manner. cheers,
Douglas
>
>>Online
computer users often engage in what is affectionately known as
>>"cybersex".
Often the fantasies typed into keyboards and shared through
>>Internet
phone lines get pretty raunchy. However, as you'll see below,
>>one of
the two cyber-surfers in the following transcript of an online
>>chat
doesn't seem to quite get the point of cyber sex. Then again, maybe
>>he
does....
>>
>>Wellhung:
Hello, Sweetheart. What do you look like?
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I am wearing a red silk blouse, a miniskirt and high heels.
>>I work
out every day, I'm toned and perfect. My measurements are
>>36-24-36.
What do you look like?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm 6'3" and about 250 pounds.I wear glasses and I have on a
>>pair of
blue sweat pants I just bought from Walmart.I'm also wearing a
>>T-shirt
with a few spots of barbecue sauce on it from dinner...it smells
>>funny..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I want you.Would you like to screw me?
>>
>>Wellhung:
OK
>>
>>Sweetheart:
We're in my bedroom.There's soft music playing on the stereo
>>and
candles on my dresser and night table.I'm looking up into your eyes,
>>smiling.
My hand works its way down to your crotch and begins to fondle
>>your
huge, swelling bulge..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm gulping, I'm beginning to sweat.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm pulling up your shirt and kissing your chest.
>>
>>Wellhung:
Now I'm unbuttoning your blouse.My hands are trembling.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm moaning softly..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm taking hold of your blouse and sliding it off slowly.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm throwing my head back in pleasure.The cool silk slides
>>off my
warm skin.I'm rubbing your bulge faster, pulling and rubbing..
>>
>>Wellhung:
My hand suddenly jerks spastically and accidentally rips a
>>hole in
your blouse.I'm sorry..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
That's OK, it wasn't really too expensive.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'll pay for it..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Don't worry about it.I'm wearing a lacy black bra.My soft
>>breasts
are rising and falling, as I breathe harder and harder..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm fumbling with the clasp on your bra.I think it's stuck. Do
>>you have
any scissors?
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I take your hand and kiss it softly.I'm reaching back
>>undoing
the clasp. The bra slides off my body. The air caresses my
>>breasts.
My nipples are erect for you..
>>
>>Wellhung:
How did you do that? I'm picking up the bra and inspecting the
>>clasp..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm arching my back. Oh baby. I just want to feel your
>>tongue
all over me..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm dropping the bra. Now I'm licking your, you know, breasts.
>>They're
neat!
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm running my fingers through your hair. Now I'm nibbling
>>your
ear..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I suddenly sneeze. Your breasts are covered with spit and
>>phlegm..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
What?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm so sorry. Really..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm wiping your phlegm off my breasts with the remains of my
>>blouse..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm taking the sopping wet blouse from you. I drop it with a
>>plop..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
OK. I'm pulling your sweat pants down and rubbing your hard
>>tool..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm screaming like a woman. Your hands are cold! Yeeee!
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm pulling up my miniskirt. Take off my panties.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm pulling off your panties. My tongue is going all over, in
>>and out
nibbling on you...umm... wait a minute..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
What's the matter?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I've got a pubic hair caught in my throat. I'm choking.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Are you OK?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm having a coughing fit. I'm turning all red.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Can I help?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm running to the kitchen, choking wildly. I'm fumbling
>>through
the cabinets, looking for a cup. Where do you keep your cups?
>>
>>Sweetheart:
In the cabinet to the right of the sink.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm drinking a cup of water. There, that's better.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Come back to me, lover.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm washing the cup now..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm on the bed arching for you.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm drying the cup. Now I'm putting it back in the cabinet.
>>And now
I'm walking back to the bedroom. Wait, it's dark, I'm lost.
>>Where's
the bedroom?
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Last door on the left at the end of the hall.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I found it..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm tuggin' off your pants. I'm moaning. I want you so
>>badly..
>>
>>Wellhung:
Me too..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Your pants are off. I kiss you passionately-our naked bodies
>>pressing
each other..
>>
>>Wellhung:
Your face is pushing my glasses into my face. It hurts.
>>
>>Sweetheart
Why don't you take off your glasses?
>>
>>Wellhung:
OK, but I can't see very well without them. I place the
>>glasses
on the night table..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm bending over the bed. Give it to me, baby!
>>
>>Wellhung:
I have to pee. I'm fumbling my way blindly across the room and
>>toward
the bathroom..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Hurry back, lover..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I find the bathroom and it's dark. I'm feeling around for the
>>toilet. I
lift the lid..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm waiting eagerly for your return.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm done going. I'm feeling around for the flush handle, but I
>>can't
find it. Uh-oh!
>>
>>Sweetheart:
What's the matter now?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I've realized that I've peed into your laundry hamper. Sorry
>>again.
I'm walking back to the bedroom now, blindly feeling my way..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Mmm, yes. Come on..
>>
>>Wellhung:
OK, now I'm going to put my...you know ...thing...in
>>your...you
know...woman's thing..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Yes! Do it, baby! Do it!
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm touching your smooth butt. It feels so nice. I kiss your
>>neck.
Umm, I'm having a little trouble here..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm moving my ass back and forth, moaning. I can't stand it
>>another
second! Slide in! Screw me now!
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm flaccid..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
What?
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm limp. I can't sustain an erection.
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm standing up and turning around; an incredulous look on
>>my face..
>>
>>Wellhung:
I'm shrugging with a sad look on my face, my weiner all
>>floppy.
I'm going to get my glasses and see what's wrong..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
No, never mind. I'm getting dressed. I'm putting on my
>>underwear.
Now I'm putting on my wet nasty blouse..
>>
>>Wellhung:
No wait! Now I'm squinting, trying to find the night table.
>>I'm
feeling along the dresser, knocking over cans of hair spray, picture
>>frames
and your candles..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
I'm buttoning my blouse. Now I'm putting on my shoes.
>>
>>Wellhung:
I've found my glasses. I'm putting them on. My God! One of our
>>candles
fell on the curtain. The curtain is on fire! I'm pointing at it,
>>a shocked
look on my face..
>>
>>Sweetheart:
Go to hell. I'm logging off, you loser!
>>
>>Wellhung:
Now the carpet is on fire! Oh noooo!
>>
>>Sweetheart:
--logged off--
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:38:37 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
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Ken posted:
>>>Online
computer users often engage in what is affectionately known as
>>>"cybersex".
Often the fantasies typed into keyboards and shared through
>>>Internet
phone lines get pretty raunchy. However, as you'll see below,
>>>one
of the two cyber-surfers in the following transcript of an online
>>>chat
doesn't seem to quite get the point of cyber sex. Then again, maybe
>>>he
does....
reminds me of
Elaine Mays and Mike Nichols doing their comedy routine.
And yes, I think
he *does* get the point. thanx for
posting this! Went
home, got the
correct number of my LA Woman, and well, we talked.
Nothing to write
home about. I continue to wonder about
the merits of
long distance
relationships. Don't think I could ever
mail this woman a
raw fish. just wouldn't appreciate it. But hell, I don't know.
thinking about
restraint, beat restraint. cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:03:39 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
Comments: To:
"Penn; Douglas; K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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>Douglas Penn
wrote:
>"How to
best love a woman who lives 125 miles away?"
>Please
respond in a BEAT manner. cheers,
Douglas
I first met the island not long after my
second wife and I got
married.
(Beat enuf for ya?)
My wife and I spent our first year apart
(thanks to Uncle Sam's Abject
Farce (or USAF for short). I was at the end of the Aleutian chain
(they called it Alaska tho I was closer to
Tokyo than Anchorage). I
was over 2,000 miles from her but thanks
to y'alls (and my) tax
dollars I got to talk to her on the phone
every night.
Your sit'ation isn't quite the same. 125 miles at 85 miles per hour
(wink to our friend Sir Speed Limit who
perished in San Miguel de
Allende) isn't but a blink (or 160,000-odd
railroad ties).
'Course if y'er vehicularly challenged
(and can't steal them as good
as our boy from Denver) then it might as
well be the Pacific twixt ya.
In that case write letters, long letters
full of prosody and sweet
talk of love things (there's Dean
again). Historically Beat authors
(not "historically, beat
authors", I'm referring to those
traditionally considered "the
Beats" as opposed to modern Beat
authors)...ahem, yass, Historically Beat
authors, of course, wrote
wonderful love letters. Glean a few lines from Grace Beats Karma
(especially helpful if your 125 mile
romance involves a woman who is
aroused by the names of Popes) or simply
quote a few lines from your
current readings...leaving out the part
about boys (in your case) and
the fact that you've got two or more women
on a rather intricate
schedule and you'll make that 125 miles to
arrive at precisely 3:17
p.m. for seventeen minutes of passion.
Jack said it best "Live your life
through...naw, LOVE your life
through". I guess my advice to you, Mr. Penn is if you
love her, 125
miles is a perfect distance.
Matt Hannan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:53:43 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Matt writ:
>> Jack said it best "Live your life
through...naw, LOVE your life
>> through". I guess my advice to you, Mr. Penn is if you
love her, 125
>> miles is a perfect distance.
>
ah. perhaps I should keep my mouth shut for a
while. all these posts.
Love has always
been a restrained thing in my book.
released slowly and
only if received
carelessly. ah, youth. thoughts come to mind, "how to
BEAT a woman to
love" [no, no, no, no], or "10 ways to tell if a BEAT is
in love"
[ok, maybe]. But what's really on my
mind is this "Can a BEAT
love a CARROT??"
still chuckling
over Ken's post. Am very much
appreciative of
Sinverguenza's
post that included the lines from "Interlude" : 'shadow
changes into
bone'. Anybody know the band, the
Pixies, and their song
"bone
machine"? Am trying to figure out
how this would *look*.
>
>> Matt Hannan
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:21:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Death of a Poet
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Diane writ:
>> society.
Writing a poem is a creative act, and in that act, man becomes
>> godlike,
creating form and substance out of nothingness.
yes, I completely
agree. yet, yet, hesitate to make such
claims.
feeling that
creative act in me, seeing it given form, *I* have fear.
yes. *I* have fear. Do not want a messiah complex. do not want to
believe that such
a "missle" (to quote patricia) could create or
destroy. Do not want to ask, why me?, my lord, why me?
rather, I would
distribute this gift accordingly, to everyone and
everything. To those whose work goes unrecognized. those who make
circuit boards
for a living. those who teach. those who floss their
teeth. Simply put, those who establish an act of
being, those are
creative
acts. creative people.
I do not want to
separate the creative act from normal quote unquote
life. If god is in the details and true life is
better than fiction,
then please, let
us leave both there. as they be, and let
us be
grateful to
recognize their existence. amen.
A string of
sayings floating thru me head, "power, absolute power [read
creative act]
corrupts absolutely". This is what
I meant by fear [or
partially].
>DC
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:26:06 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
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Leo writ:
>> i'll
take two dozen in lime green.
It's not Easter
yet, you'll have to wait. ;-) Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:39:29 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Huck
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Joesph writ:
>> because
>> Huck knew of it
>> without knowing it
Did Huck have a
girl who lived 125 miles upstream, too??
;-)
I like how _it_
reads and am curious how _it_ plays out performance
wise. Any background images/sounds?? Fire and the sound of birds in a
jungle.... a
newspaper being read in a cafe [flip, flip].... high rises
tracking the arc
of the sun.... marshes and swamps dark with
fireflies...
>
>> Joseph
Neudorfer
>cheers,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:29:27 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Kerouac.
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Content-Type:
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DEAR friends,
Lowell
Massachusetts on the tombstone:
"Ti Jean -
John Kerouac who honored Life - his wife Stella"
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:49:57 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Cuddle
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Barb writ:
>> Cuddles
with a poet? hmmm...I've been known to
cuddle up with a good
>> book of
poetry. but despite the art and technique of the professional
>> cuddle,
have ended up battered by corners of dark thought and newly
>> dimpled
by sharp-witted lines...not heavenly...but good
>>
nonetheless...and better for having slept on it.
yes, then you
have met the Collosus of poetry. Ridden
its bareback and
sceamed with
joy. perhaps been stuck on that merry go
ride too long.
Sharp-tongued
demons, yes, I have felt those via cuddle.
little buggers
sucking the sap
right oughta ma breast. .... like knives gnawing into my
flesh,
reflexively, as I loose the knots and need.
hm, purr. and
grateful, yes,
for the sleep, yes, the sleep that brought light into
those corners
again.
Best to cuddle in
a big empty house. yes. absolutely yes.
>> Barb
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:05:39 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
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Marie writ:
>> no god
best god.
>> gone
and might I add,
"amen"?? Woke up this morning
wanting to hear Leonard
Cohen's "Who
by Fire" and now I have. Thank you.
>> mc
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:36:53 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: back in a few days
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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ya'll
just thought that
i would let you all know thati am unsubscribing BUT only
for 10 days as i
am going on vacation to montreal (jazz fest!, met
relatives, see
antoine, etc) for 10 days and will be away from my 'puter.
do not dispair i
will be back ;^)
if theres
anything VITAL happening that i should know about it - forward
it on to me and
i'll read it when i get back.
i'll fill ya'llin
if anything exciting happens,
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:59:51 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs
In a message
dated 97-06-22 00:58:20 EDT, CVEditions@AOL.COM (Pamela Beach
Plymell) writes:
<< I caught
what was supposed to be a gaf of Dole during the campaign
that tobbaco is sometimes less harmful than
milk. >>
It's simple. Milk
in a bottle crashing down on your head is bad. A cigarrette
crashing down on
your head doesn't do anything, therefore cigarrettes are
better for you
then milk. Unless of course you're eating peanut butter
sandwiches, in
which case it is much better to drink milk then to drink
cigarrettes.
it's so simple,
just like Dole was.
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:42:34 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Kaddish as a play
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Does anyone know
where to find Kaddish a script for a play? It is
supposed to have
been performed in 1972.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:24:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Death of a Poet
In a message
dated 97-06-25 12:05:23 EDT, you write:
<< Writing a poem is a creative act, and in that
act, man becomes
godlike, creating form and substance out of
nothingness.
DC
>>
I don't think
anyone creates out of nothingness. Not
even God (well he's
dead so it's
irrelevant now, isn't it). You can
change things around, mix
them up a bit,
but you can't make something out of nothing.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 17:18:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: love-sad and death-happy
In a message
dated 97-06-25 00:32:04 EDT, you write:
<<
Just then on a dark and stormy night a
mysterious anti-poet named
Erasura appears on the television screen of
the collective unconscious
and wipes away all peyotic and poetic memory
since the dawn of King
Arthur's ant collection.
>>
Race your words
make me want to right a poem:(i don't kno why)
The Marquis de
Sadness
each heartbeat
hurts to ripples in chest
strumming pain
with numb fingers
love and sadness
are the same
in my book of the
dead
i see the
reflected image of my child
I mean my
mother's mother
and my lover's
lover.
I have come to
think i don't exist,
And you have come
to prove me wrong again.
I don't want your
painted words
across the soft
hole in my chest.
Between ribs
i bleed inky
pools of lust.
The insects cry
and i cover my eyes, needing.
it's a sweet
death we all feel to discover.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:26:06 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Nero.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
my black
spaniel
Nero,
my dog
is unplugged
my dog
goes
by the vet
my dog
Nero
isnt' stupid!
my dog
watched
the telly
my dog
was a pet
when ceausescu
was killed
in xmas day
my dog Nero
isnt' stupid!
my dog
now is
near a bunch
of trash,
car plate,
or in kennel
my dog
killed
one hundred
hens
& when
the wind
is blowing
on the right
i hear his
unplugged
soul
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:16:55 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
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From: MATT HANNAN
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Subject: Re[2]: Death of a Poet
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Oh boy, an "original thought"
thread.....who's up for some Aristotle?
Mari wrote:
>I don't think anyone creates out of
nothingness. Not even God (well
>he's dead so it's irrelevant now,
isn't it).
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 17:15:10 +0000
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Subject: Huck
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Douglas wrote:
> Did Huck
have a girl who lived 125 miles upstream, too??
;-)
We all know Huck
had more girls than was physically possible. Twain was
smart enough not
to focus on this side of the boy's life.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:06:49 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
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Subject: Re: love-sad and death-happy
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Maya superbly
writ:
><< The
Marquis de Sadness
>
>each
heartbeat hurts to ripples in chest
>strumming
pain with numb fingers
>love and
sadness are the same
>in my book of
the dead
>i see the
reflected image of my child
>I mean my
mother's mother
>and my
lover's lover.
>I have come
to think i don't exist,
>And you have
come to prove me wrong again.
>I don't want
your painted words
>across the
soft hole in my chest.
>Between ribs
>i bleed inky
pools of lust.
>The insects cry
and i cover my eyes, needing.
it's a sweet
death we all feel to discover.>>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I envy your compaction, your jumping stones, and that
marbled stuff you
smear across your eyes, Maya. A humble
and hasty
reply:
>"paysage"
(Miro, ~1925)
I hear you boxing
with whispers
replacing
underwear and outer garments
with ropes and
bottle caps, oils, and registers
the reverberating
sound of stereos and outboard motors
of gentlemen and
piano bars tinkling
the worms eating
up your shadow play
there's rooms to
rent and mouths to feed, already!
the citing of
evidence that glanced bare naked across
across across,
oh, your aging and disintegrating body
licking your skin
for technically edited necessities
charm to wit, and
the not too gentle suggestions of of of of
sacrifice....
layoffs... and inflight movies...
bleeding my eyes
for one gentle touch, one, ah damn!
who cares
already?, oh!, just fuck me! fuck me!
lying here
waiting, god, this sterile madness, <<HELLO!!>>
<<HELLO!!>>
sweating with desire... <<HELLO!!>>
"my lover's
lover"... box him in here with me, please
I am destroyer, I
AM DESTROYER!!
calm cool and
casual,
yes, my long day
at work continues....
------- douglas
<<hmmmm,
breathing...>>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:37:56 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
In a message
dated 97-06-25 00:39:57 EDT, you write:
<< not
certain that i'm up for cuddling but would be more than happy to
share some Kentucky Fried >>
I heard on the
news that one of our main exports to China is chicken feet
which they eat as
a delicacy. Now we know the Colonel Sanders connection. I
don't how many
chicken feet the Chinese will eat in Hong Kong next week.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:41:57 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
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From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments: To:
Sinverg|enza <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
=20
> yeah. the
only reason we do anything is because we know we're going to =
die.
I agree, we we
live and we die. And when our switch gets clicked, it
just gets
clicked! What the hellare we supposed to do about it? Why try
ta fight fate.
The light a lamp makes can't keep the lamp's switch
unclicked no more
than street-light light can control dawn or dawn
control dusk.
Click switching cycles just exist. Stars go supernova and
lightening bugs
mind meld with windshields.=20
This kid about 3
weeks ago run head on into this electric pole. He was a
bit drunk so he
survived the crash with just a few scratches. But fate
had predetermined
to click his switch with that accident and when the
pole didn't click
it, the live wire he stepped on did! A 50,000-volt
click. Or it was
more like BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ......KKKKK zzzzzKKkkk=20
you know some
sound like that and then some burning flesh smells and so
on. He was meant
to die there one way or the other. Little exists one
could do to
change it.
And then last
July 4th in Reynoldsburg, Ohio this guy's switch was
predetermined
off. This fireworks steel shell casing exploded like a
big-ass bomb
rather than towards the sky. A nice size piece of this
steel shrapnel
chunk of steel sharp and jagged from the blast commenced
retrorocketing
parallel with the ground generally out towards all the
fireworks patrons
of that nice Reynoldsburg community celebrating the
good ole USA's
independence and fasten your seatbelt, drive 65 and don't
smoke dope
justice for all concepts. It was like Russian Roulette with
all the fans as
players. Whose gonna die today folks, let's see.... Well
this bullet-like
chunk of iron at God Speed clinked off a steel swingset
there in that
park ricocheting it off at an angle to its original
trajectory,
tantalizing these roulette players, all in less than a split
second so fast no
one could really see it no more than one can see a
bullet, it was
there in the air looking for a life switch to click. This
guy had been
laying on his back on a blanket with his daughter perched
upon his stomach
both looking up at the sky oohing and awwwwing at the
red, white and
blue explosions high above. He put his daughter aside,
sat up, and
Ka-fuck'n-whack, his switch clicked!
The big-ass piece
of sharp-ass, jagged-ass steel shrapnel buried itself
deep into his
chest cavity. He died on the spot. I suppose a moment or
two elapsed
between the initial contact and the time his switched
clicked off, but
who would have noticed. It all happened so fast. That
shrapnel had that
guy's name on it. It was a fate guided missile on a
mission to click
that guy's switch. And it clicked it! Off! Think of the
odds and all the
chaos theory that unfolded those events? It binged off
a playground
swingset, barely missed some folks, the guy just sat up,
etc. If it would
have went straight someone else would have got it. It
coulda peeled his
daughter's head off and continued on to brutalize
other roulette
participants--a serial kill'n chunk a iron! Fate clicked
that specific
guy's switch and what could anyone do about that?
Nothing!
I have many other
stories to support my click theory. I get them from
the newspaper all
the time. Like this guy sit'n in his reclining chair
in his living
room watching TV and reading the newspaper when a
meteorite burns
through the roof, the rafters, the upstairs bedroom
floor, the living
room ceiling, and welds itself to this guy's skull. A
damn meteorite
from outer space! God Damn, what the hell can anyone
possibly do about
that?
Nothing!
If a meteorite
from space has your name on it, hell bent to click your
switch, it'll
click it. It'll click it wherever you might be. It's all
not that much
different than the choice we had as to when we were gonna
get born, or who
we were gonna be, or even what we was gonna be. Fate
determines those
things.
Fate.
Just like fate
determined who we were to be born as, what our minds
would be like,
etc. Fate probably even enrolled us inta school. That's
why I don't
understand so easily why so many folks have all this
resentment
inside, and sadness, and pain, and so on. What the hell
control did they
have over anything that happened to them as a child?
What? How could
they have changed anything? Why can't we as human beings
just look into
ourselves, see who we are this damn time, and live on
with it as fate
desires? Shit. We get a finite number of summertimes to
enjoy, bowls of
homemade ice cream to swallow, fish to catch, mornings
to get up, prior
to that one predeterminately privatized meteorite in
orbit up there in
outer space loosing altitude and drag'n ass due to the
friction with the
atmosphere and dip'n on in, blazing-ass burn'n through
the night
sky--fall'n star--to click your switch! Off. And that's if
we're lucky to go
out in such a CNN-
newsworthy blaze
of glory. Most folks just get the hand clapper--clap
clap--and its
clicked; a stroke sleeping, or a cancer dying, or old age
ending.
Ever remember
throwing a pillow or something and it accidentally clicks
off the light
switch? Well if some bug or amebocite or some life form
was in that room
that needed light to sustain life, lived only while
light fed it,
lived life cycles according to when and when not light fed
it, etc. it would
die due to that damn accidental pillow click! Or if
someone slams
inta a light pole a few blocks away and the lights go out
in a few city
blocks, think of all those amebocites dying due to that
accidental power
outage. And shit, that New York State blackout wiped
out amebocite
civilizations! --a
Bubonic
Plague-like epidemic. Fate works big and small.
Think of those
poor innocently swimming fish humans catch, and then fry?
Would 'bout those
guys? And the worm you feed that fated fish? Do you
think that worm
likes to swim? If worms like water so much, why aren't
they in it? They
stay in the dirt cuz they like the dirt. They don't
particularly
enjoy get'n their guts hooked, a carpet knife-like, street
fight'n, gut
wrench'n, jab with a barbed hook, and then wiggl'n ass'd,=20
tossed overboard
10 foot deep fish food so as to snare a baby blue gill,
just barely outta
minnowhood! That's a handsome catch there, a 1-inch
fish! If we catch
a couple more like that one, we can make us a fish
stick! --support
a cliche.
Fate determines
everything. And everything just exists. That is Mike's
Theory of
Everything: The Fish stick TOE....stub'd on a rock, bit by an
ant, and fungus
covered need'n some kind of pharmaceutically corporate
fungicide to
clear it up! I knew this guy who dipped his feet into sheep
dip to kill his
athlete's foot. Indeed, it burned that pesky-ass,
scratch-resistant
fungus off along with several epidermal layers
including his
hide! Burn't his feet blood red. Plus he got plenty of
dope there in the
hospital while recovering from this third degree
encounter with
fate... Some folks argue that this guy, Darrell, burn't
his feet on his
own accord--that fate had nothing' to do with it. They
say, of course,
the undiluted sheep dip did it, but Darrell put his feet
in it. And I
counter example by asking how did Darrell come by that
chemical cocktail
and then the high-octane, fast act'n Tatactin desire
to deep fry his
damn feet? Did Darrell act alone? Sheep dip needs
diluted perhaps
100 gallons of water per one gallon of dip! What on
earth could have
prompted Darrell to submerge his feet into undiluted
dip. Christ, when
dipped diluted, sheep act nuts and Darrell has
witnessed the
terror in their eyes numerous times--enough to know,
anyway, dipped
ticks drop dead right off dipped sheep! Dip clicks ticks'
switches like
gasolene ignites. Darrell knew dip demographics all too
well. Fate dipped
Darrell's feet into that undiluted dip!=20
In the hospital,
doped and pained, Darrell asked to no one in
particular,
perhaps to himself, "what in the hell made me do it?"
Fate did it,
Darrell, fate did it...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:08:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In a message
dated 97-06-25 04:34:02 EDT, you write:
<< I'm much
more concerned with the product as opposed to
the act of creating. >>
I just finished
listening to a CD Allen gave me last November Kronos Quartet
* HOWL,
U.S.A. Hmmmm..... Should I now hear Anne
Sexton?
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:20:33 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.
In a message
dated 97-06-25 04:35:43 EDT, you write:
<< (The one
that starts off "To have seen a specter isn't
everything..)
>>
When Allen and I
"talked poetry" c 1963, It was
obivious he was a good
learner, which, I
suppose one has to be, to be a good teacher. He kept asking
me the MEANING of
the lines of Blake I had quoted. "Each man is in his
Specter's
power/until the arrival of that hour/when his humanity awakes/and
castes that
Specter in the lake."
(might not be
exact...quoting from memory.) He was very persistent, like I
knew something
about it. It was a big "thread" for a while. Neal often picked
up on discussions and jumped the words to his own
battery. I wondered if he
had discussed the
same poem with Allen previously.
Charles Plymell
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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:26:21 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
Some one
suggested adding more chlorine to the gene pool.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:29:32 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
In a message
dated 97-06-25 05:12:19 EDT, you write:
<< I don't
know, but I bet Blake and Ginsberg did.
Why can't divinity be
found/invoked? in the craftmanship of
creating? >>
I find Blake's
madness sometimes boring. I love his shorter poems and liked
the story that he
ran naked in his garden. I think Allen's "statement" of
nakedness was
just the thing for the 50's culture vulture and eggheads.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:35:50 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
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From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: more ketchup
Content-Type:
text
Hi again!
I still haven't
completely caught up (about 100 messages behind now),
but I wanted to
take a moment to address some responses to my previous
mailing.
Arthur: the
_Junky_ quote strikes me as an allusion to Eliot's measured-
out life, but
with a crucial difference: the junkie measures out his life by
putting it
continually in a state of emergency. Prufrock's life is completely
bland, vanilla;
he needs the coffee just to stay awake in his world. The
junky's situation
may be also be a trap, but at the other extreme from
Prufrock's.
Diane: regarding
Eliot's visionary qualities--I see him as resembling the
mystic's
"dark night of the soul" (St. John of the Cross).
"Prufrock"
concludes with
the mermaid vision of escape from his drowning in the
world around him
(I think Marie quoted the passage); _The Waste Land_
creates an
apocalyptic world which has a number of significant parallels
to that of
_Howl_, and the message of the thunder offers a trace of hope
in the sterile
land. Part II of "Ash Wednesday" begins, "Lady, three
white leopards
sat under a juniper-tree / In the cool of the day, having
fed to satiety /
On my legs my heart my liver and that which had been
contained / In
the hollow round of my skull. And God said / Shall these
bones live?"
Is there a definition of _visionary_ which this does satisfy?
All 4 voices of
the _Four Quartets_ also provide the spiritual visions,
particularly at
the end of Little Gidding, where the sins of the garden
are purified and
redeemed by the fire and the rose.
Joseph: Snyder's
notion of documentation is one I find attractive, but
I cannot help but
believe that the art I value goes beyond that (I will
elaborate more in
my next mailing).
Charley: I had
been glancing at an issue of _Soft Need_ (#9) at an article
of Burroughs
about Brion Gysin's paintings, and I had noticed your "Coca,
Saturn, and
Sun": Part 1 was entitled Hallucination Dissertation Manifesto,
and Part 2,
interestingly enough, is titled Attila Over the Rooftops.
Sometimes my
brain puts handcuffs on certain title, and I carry them around
with me for days
on end. At any rate the first section's title occurred to me
in connection
with the point I was making in my previous note, so I cited it.
To anyone who has
read this far, a bonus on women writers: Edgar Allan Poe,
in reviewing a
poetry anthology published in the 19th century, commented on
the small number
of women included; he concluded that, if women are not well
represented among
the great poets, it is because the great poems have yet
to be written.
How's that for a compliment coming from a writer not usually
associated with
the women's movement.
I would also like
to comment on the issue of spontaneous writing, but I will use
another mailing.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/25/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:36:12 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
Marlene Dietrich
said that: "In America sex is an obsession; in Europe it is
a fact."
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:35:33 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970625201949_1689248464@emout20.mail.aol.com>
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On Wed, 25 Jun
1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> When Allen
and I "talked poetry" c 1963,
It was obivious he was a good
> learner,
which, I suppose one has to be, to be a good teacher. He kept asking
> me the
MEANING of the lines of Blake I had quoted. "Each man is in his
> Specter's
power/until the arrival of that hour/when his humanity awakes/and
> castes that
Specter in the lake."
So what'd you
say?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:05:02 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: spontaneity and writing
Content-Type:
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Hi again!
I've always felt
uncomfortable with the whole first-thought-best-
thought concept,
which not even Kerouac and Ginsberg seem to have
been able to
adhere to.
Back when I was
in college, I found myself very depressed at one point.
The woman I had
been seeing had dumped me and now was dating one of my
friends. I felt
doubly betrayed, and not having Maya's voodoo skills
I kept all my
pain inside. One night when the bars closed, I was walking
home drunk and
depressed. The night was bitterly cold, and I had about 5
miles to walk to
get home. I came to the Newman House on campus and
decided that I
needed to talk to a priest (I had been raised as a Catholic,
but at this point in the story, I had not been
to church for over 3
years), but the
housekeeper would not wake the priest up. With this 3rd
betrayal, I
returned to the wintry weather. About a mile from home, I had
to cross two
parallel sets of railroad tracks, and in the distance I saw
the light of a
train heading my way. I sat down in the middle of the tracks
and decided that
if the train were on my tracks I was a goner. Well,
as you probably
guessed, the train was on the other track. I picked myself
up and walked on
home with my wet pants leg freezing to my thigh. The point
is that I don't
think that my spontaneous decision was a very healthy one,
and I have
difficulty endorsing as a principle for art a principle I could
not endorse for
life. Years later, at a poetry reading at Naropa Institute
in Boulder, I
heard Gregory Corso address the same principle of first-
thought-best-thought
and arrive at virtually the same conclusion: he read a
poem which I
think is still unpublished and concluded, "on second thought
I decided not to
jump off the Empire State Building."
Someone earlier
cited Burroughs's notion that the writer tells the reader
something the
reader knows but does not know s/he knows; perhaps the same
thing works for
the writer, who as artist writes something s/he knows but
does not know
s/he knows. I believe that every great work of art (and even
many that are not
great) is a learning experience for the artist, a moment
of growth. The
work of art may "document" (Snyder's term, as Joseph Neudorfer
pointed out to
us) that moment, but if the artist has truly grown, then
s/he ought to be
able to improve upon it--the process then would be endless.
Tolstoy (not a
Beat, but a great writer nonetheless) once said that a work
of art is never
finished--it is only abandoned.
Well, I did not
mean to go on at quite such length. Apologies.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/25/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:59:19 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> I heard on
the news that one of our main exports to China is chicken > feet
which they eat as a delicacy. Now we know the
Colonel Sanders > connection. I
don't how many chicken feet the Chinese will
eat in Hong > Kong next week.
Here in Columbus,
Ohio, a local vending machine company, Sanese, serves
Chicken Beak BBQ
Sandwiches in vending machines for $1.50. They're not
bad as long as
they grind 'er up real good. And a couple buddies, on a
couple occasions
swore they'd bit into a piece a hoof in their BBQ Pork
Sandwiches.
When a hog or a
chicken goes into Sanese, nothing comes out but
sandwiches....
-Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:23:37 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: spontaneity and writing
Comments: To:
Michael Skau <mskau@cwis.unomaha.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I remember
reading something about WSB, and he was saying that he wasn't a
big fan of
spontaneity because he finds that by being spontaneous, he runs
out of stuff to
write. He prefers to write a chapter, for example, and then
go back and
revise it. But, as it was mentioned
earlier, each
writer/artist, or
combonation of both, well whatever you do, each person
has their own
method of doing whatever.
At 08:05 PM
6/25/97 -0500, Michael Skau wrote:
>Hi again!
>I've always
felt uncomfortable with the whole first-thought-best-
>thought
concept, which not even Kerouac and Ginsberg seem to have
>been able to
adhere to.
>Back when I
was in college, I found myself very depressed at one point.
>The woman I
had been seeing had dumped me and now was dating one of my
>friends. I
felt doubly betrayed, and not having Maya's voodoo skills
>I kept all my
pain inside. One night when the bars closed, I was walking
>home drunk
and depressed. The night was bitterly cold, and I had about 5
>miles to walk
to get home. I came to the Newman House on campus and
>decided that
I needed to talk to a priest (I had been raised as a Catholic,
> but at this
point in the story, I had not been to church for over 3
>years), but
the housekeeper would not wake the priest up. With this 3rd
>betrayal, I
returned to the wintry weather. About a mile from home, I had
>to cross two
parallel sets of railroad tracks, and in the distance I saw
>the light of
a train heading my way. I sat down in the middle of the tracks
>and decided
that if the train were on my tracks I was a goner. Well,
>as you
probably guessed, the train was on the other track. I picked myself
>up and walked
on home with my wet pants leg freezing to my thigh. The point
>is that I
don't think that my spontaneous decision was a very healthy one,
>and I have
difficulty endorsing as a principle for art a principle I could
>not endorse
for life. Years later, at a poetry reading at Naropa Institute
>in Boulder, I
heard Gregory Corso address the same principle of first-
>thought-best-thought
and arrive at virtually the same conclusion: he read a
>poem which I
think is still unpublished and concluded, "on second thought
>I decided not
to jump off the Empire State Building."
>Someone
earlier cited Burroughs's notion that the writer tells the reader
>something the
reader knows but does not know s/he knows; perhaps the same
>thing works
for the writer, who as artist writes something s/he knows but
>does not know
s/he knows. I believe that every great work of art (and even
>many that are
not great) is a learning experience for the artist, a moment
>of growth.
The work of art may "document" (Snyder's term, as Joseph Neudorfer
>pointed out
to us) that moment, but if the artist has truly grown, then
>s/he ought to
be able to improve upon it--the process then would be endless.
>Tolstoy (not
a Beat, but a great writer nonetheless) once said that a work
>of art is
never finished--it is only abandoned.
>Well, I did
not mean to go on at quite such length. Apologies.
>Cordially,
>Mike Skau
>6/25/97
>
>
ge elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:32:47 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: original thought
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If there is an
original thought out there, I could use it right now.
Dylan/Shepard
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:42:39 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Death of a Poet
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> yes, I
completely agree. yet, yet, hesitate to
make such claims.
> feeling that
creative act in me, seeing it given form, *I* have fear.
> yes. *I* have fear. Do not want a messiah complex. do not want to
> believe that
such a "missle" (to quote patricia) could create or
> destroy. Do not want to ask, why me?, my lord, why me?
> rather, I
would distribute this gift accordingly, to everyone and
>
everything. To those whose work goes
unrecognized. those who make
> circuit
boards for a living. those who
teach. those who floss their
> teeth. Simply put, those who establish an act of
being, those are
> creative
acts. creative people.
>
> I do not
want to separate the creative act from normal quote unquote
> life. If god is in the details and true life is
better than fiction,
> then please,
let us leave both there. as they be, and
let us be
> grateful to
recognize their existence. amen.
>
> A string of
sayings floating thru me head, "power, absolute power [read
> creative
act] corrupts absolutely". This is
what I meant by fear [or
> partially].
>
> cheers,
Douglas
I take it you do
not want to follow the route of the tortured artist,
saying, "Why
me, God?" Not a route I would
choose either. However, words
are powerful, any
way you look at it, and from my view, all poets are
burdened with
knowledge that can create or destroy. In
your second
paragraph, I see
Ginsberg's work as applicable. Poetry
cannot be
separated from
the act of being. The subjects poetry
addresses are not
necessarily
higher or loftier than those of people getting up in the
morning and going
to work, whatever their profession may be, or making
love or flossing
your teeth. In the voice of the poet,
these acts that
make us human
also take on new knowledge and meaning.
Absolute power
(read creative
act/godlike) does not need to corrupt absolutely. Godlike
does not
necessarily mean messiah-like. Perhaps
it is the power to see
infinity and
immortality in little acts of humanness.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:51:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-25 04:34:02 EDT, you write:
>
> I just
finished listening to a CD Allen gave me last November Kronos Quartet
> * HOWL,
U.S.A. Hmmmm..... Should I now hear Anne
Sexton?
> C. Plymell
I hope not. I have to say that I went through a period
long ago where I
read everything
Anne Sexton wrote. Today all I remember
are similes of
life likened to
moths and earthworms. And although I
vaguely remember
that she won the
Pulitzer Prize at some point, my only vivid recollection
from her work and
life is that she commited suicide.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:09:40 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: messing 'round
MIME-Version: 1.0
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some antics
Now
here
is
nowhere
is
a
God
is
a
dog
as
anywhere
is
any where
is
nowhere
Words are
not
doors and
i
am
not
a
word but
i
am
also
not
a
door
you
guess it's
your
turn still
Eric Sapp
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:04:39 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: spontaneity and writing
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Michael Skau
wrote:
>
> Someone
earlier cited Burroughs's notion that the writer tells the
>reader
> something
the reader knows but does not know s/he knows; perhaps the
>same
> thing works
for the writer, who as artist writes something s/he knows but
> does not
know s/he knows.
I believe this
often to be the case. However, revision
is not
necessarily the
opposite of first-thought, best-thought.
The initial
idea or stream of
first-thought, best-thought, can remain and only be
further
illuminated. Doesn't mean you lose that first thought in the
revision process.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:12:29 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWalk saga again
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forgot to include
this one before as well. this is the
second piece in
the collection.
from FireWalk
Thru Madness copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
COLT - 45
While reading
Steppenwolf, Harry Haller=92s records -- =93for Madmen Only=
=94
-- the memory
returned. An auditory memory.
LAUGHTER
!!!!!!!!
The sinister
laughter, cackling laughter, angry - hateful - insane
laughter which
came from her mouth, reflected a voice which was new to
me - a voice
never heard from the auburn haired ghost before. The
auburn haired man
of stone, listening from the blue room, heard my stern
words, finally
escaping my cowardice, finally standing up for myself,
standing up to
the ghost who owned my soul. But the
stone man=92s ears
were deaf when it
came to her laughter. He did not witness
the
insanity, the
complete possession of her mind by irrational evil forces.
The forces of
evil and insanity came in voices John had warned of ....
The voices of the
pit, beckoning those who could hear to take the step
of faith into the
realm of unreason to the joy of insanity.
She had
taken the step
and in the laughs only I could hear a cry of help.
In a brief
codependent moment, I foolishly believed that I was her
savior, that I
was the only one on earth who could rescue her from the
caverns she had
fallen into. I conjured the abyss in my
mind and leaped
in.
For nearly six
months my mind slipped in and out of realities, fantasies
-- one never knew
the real from the fiction. =20
I met the Biafran
Jew
who
read my palm, discussing
rainmaking he promised me a trip to meet his
medicine man and
learn time travel. A sorcerer....and
threatened my
friends and I
fought his mind and he made my body move through space and
time to places I
have never known. He distracted me
momentarily with an
hallucination of
Black Moses leading his people out of Egypt to a
promised land in
the other direction from Israel; and then I saw a Black
Jesus nailed to a
Black Cross and then a Woman Named Moses with Auburn
Hair ---- and
they burned her at the stake like Joan of Arc ....... then
someone bumped me
on the ped mall and I was safe and the sorcerer left
to torment
someone else.
I sat at the
river Styx -- day after day with a deck of cards playing
solitaire -- a
game called patience/ a game called Idiot=92s delight.=20
Playing cards
with myself. Playing with myself. Invisible to most. =20
I sang to myself
as I turned the cards over and over again the last
lines from
Shelter from the Storm - -
=93If I could only turn back the clock
to when God and her
were born.=94
And the wind
would howl, and the Iowa river would shake the banks near
me and I would
watch the people walk by unable to see me -- seeing
through them.
When the winds
would die and the smell of tornadoes left the air, I
would begin to
walk across the city to Dan and Mary=92s - the dog people =
-
shepherd people -
who brought lightness to the dungeons and dragons
games .... games
I never played, for I preferred solitaire, playing with
myself.
My best friends
were sunflowers and when they died I cried and searched
for new
sunflowers and one grew seven feet high at my mothers .... and I
went to the law
building and taught the classes ... and laughed and
howled at the
moon, as the students painted anarchy on the dorm windows
and the
counselors cried at the insanity which filled the air.
And the priest
declared that =93I=94 was Alpha and Omega and I accepted t=
he
part and split
the universe in my mind -- angry at the abyss for
stealing the
auburn ghost. I spoke with her once that
summer but she
could not see or
hear me. =20
She read the
lawbooks as I saw the black paint cover Danforth Chapel ...
And then
astral projection
in my mind took me far beyond the galaxy and glancing
back at the Milky
Way I saw the gateways to a parallel universe --
hidden doorways
at the L-5 points/ gravity points between Earth and
Moon, where they
want to put the space station -- and suddenly I
understood her
abstinence, her fear of conceiving Captain James Kirk who
was to be born in
the town where we lived -- Riverside Iowa, birthplace
of the Starfleet
Captain -- Who spoke the prime directive of
non-interference
in alien culture while fucking every alien woman he
could lure into
the sack.
I crashed
somewhere near the river. The reentry
was devestating.
After a while I
took my place on the stone benches and turned the cards
and sang songs to
myself. Then she met me there at the
River Styx and I
signed the paper
and I was free. Free at last. Free at last. Until
the magician at
the Dead Wood aksed if it was what I wanted and I said
it was too late
and he showed me his disappearing tricks and said maybe
not and I gave
him a book called Miracles and left the decision to the
Universe and told
him his magic could make the papers disappear from the
Courthouse if the
divorce was not intended by the Fates.
Then I tripped
down the street to see Batman but left before the Joker
died and talked
with the student in the lobby who was reading Zen and
the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenence.
And I retired to
the Heartland to the banks of the Missouri River and
collected myself
collected from people all around the country and played
Hanks Williams=92
songs =93I=92m so lonesome I could Cry=94 on Dan=92s Re=
d, White
and Blue Buck
Owens=92 guitar and I helped Mary with her Alzheimer=92s by
trading minds
with her and with her thoughts in my mind I was diagnosed.
So I escaped to
the camp by the River and rested for a year preparing
for my journey
from the pit. The climb out of Hell
would require all my
energy. So I came to the banks of the Mississippi
River - Highway 61
Revisited - After
my father had sacrificed me to old Doc Whitehead and
his Haldol. =20
I abandoned
solitaire for spades and played often with three Rock Island
Ghosts - one
who=92d been to Woodstock and then to prison when his father
and brother
sacrificed him on Highway 61 for a little marijuana. And
then the divorce
destroyed his mind just as mine had - so I gave him my
wedding band and
he wore it as a pinky ring. I still wear
his stocking
cap to sleep for
protection from the brainstorms.
His partner in
spades was a homemaker not by choice - by fear.
A lover
once took some
acid and then took a lighter and burned her vagina and
she protected
herself with several quarts of Colt 45 each day and she
never left the
house in the two years I knew her and once she took
twenty-five
minutes to decide which card to place because her mind was
so distracted
from the alcohol haze.
My partner was a
giant ghost who saw Jimi Hendrix alive in Davenport and
thought Hitler
was righteous and he explained the angel paintings and
deconstructed
words to find hidden meanings. The
hospital was the true
pit, the clue was
right there in the middle of the word -- hos-PIT-al --
so he didn=92t
take his medications very often.
And we were
playing spades and Fleetwood Mac was playing hypnotize and
then David
Gilmore started playing out of this world and I left my body
and looked down
and saw us playing cards and when I returned I was sick
for hours and
passed out on the couch I gave them. =20
The next day I
told a freind I almost died several times on that couch.=20
I felt my heart
stop and start again.
Janis Joplin sang
a funeral song while I read a clipping about AIDs not
knowing that the
auburn ghost was working on quilts in San Francisco and
the brainstorm
came and lasted four days .... no identity ... no sleep
... for four days
walking aimlessly searching for hope
...........................
And I reached the
white house long past midnight and the stairs were lit
by a Goddess and
as I climbed the stairs I heard Led Zepelin in my mind=20
and each level
reflected another stage of cosnciousness.
when I reached
the third level a
huge American flag symbolized the New World Order ...=20
I saw a stairway
going up and realized that the flag and the New Order
were a sham.
I went to the
next level=20
sat on a lawn
chair
threw a
lightbulb=20
into the parking
lot
my last bright idea
shattered on the
pavement.
REM=92s =93It=92s
the End of the World as we know it=94 played in my head=
. =20
I took the
child=92s toy, the red chalice brought it to my lips and
quenched my
thirst. I heard William Burroughs
voice: =93A wise man once
said that you can
only call the Doctor once.=94 I smelled
the unleaded o=
n
my breath. My mind screamed out : =93Doctor! Doctor!=94
I lived.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:22:32 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: poesia and posies
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hello Beat-list
folk, quite a busy time of cyberyear, i spend more time
seeking random
bits of info before deleting, sad sad, well now i'm talkin'...
I always liked
Kerouac's Spontaneous suggestions, though spontaneaeaity
aint limit ed to
a particular set of circumstances -- i mean ya dont
haveta by hopped
up on caffee n benny hunched o'er a typewriter or pen n
pad or blank wall
or -- since spontaneaous writin is just Mind writin
cannot there be Spontaneous
Revisions -- i mean, there CAN be -- isnt a
revision just
another flash of insight in the brain, even if ya spend
hours years
mulling over a problem often the solution comes in split
seconds, like
writin a term paper fo' school, takes a lot of timewasting
and considerably
few actual productive timeslots for me, tho sometimes
the reaction must
simmer...
anyway, I
personally, in my prolific (mostly unRead though i assure you
genius!) work of
writing i generally stick with NO revisions, for several
or a few
reasones:
1) i am lazy.
proud slacker.
2) like to save
shit.
3)no time, more
stuff to compose.
etc,etc,etc.
i can sometimes
think of my poetry as carrying on a conversation record
of thoughts for
myself. like, in a conversation, you can't erase a
statement. you
can ammend it, move on, say new things, but a statement
(though perhaps
meaningless) is out there. So, in writing, i usually
leave things as
they were when i was actively jotting a pieceafter maybe
adding the
"s" 's i forgot or correcting it to the words i wanted to say
(that were said
in my mind) and simply scribbled through cursively
reckless,
whatever. I'll just compose another pome if i wanna say
somethin new
rather than try to eradicate an earlier one. Great!
adios, A dios,
if any one cares,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:05:10 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: The Role of the Poet]
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sent this
sometime last night. got the OVERDRAFT
notice having exceeded
my number of post
per day alotment. i had been counting so
carefully i
thought certainly
i had one left. but i was wrong.
so ... since i
saved a bunch today i can waste one by resending these.
and if i can kick
this sleepiness that is overcoming - i might just have
to shoot the rest
of my wad for the day in the next few minutes.
but
sleepiness may
win out.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun
1997 21:13:33 -0500
From: RACE ---
<race@midusa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla
3.01Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Beat-L
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: The
Role of the Poet
References:
<33AF17D9.AA6@discovland.net> <l03020900afd52a9e495b@[198.5.212.77]>
<l03020902afd594cb57df@[198.5.212.108]>
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runner911 wrote:
>
> At 1:53 AM
-0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
>
> >
actually, the answer would be an EMPHATIC
no. The kind of poet being
> >
described in that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
> >
understood as a word alchemist. if one
accepts the power of symbols in
> > shaping
reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
> >
symbolic soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy. What you were
> >
referring to is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
> >
alchemist can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
> > aged
gentlement in terms of pure magic.
>
> yes, and my
argument for the definition of a poet would necessitate that
> this
"magician" and "alchemist" spend time on the SHITLIST. Oh, god
> forbid, our
poet should have a criminal record!
should be despised by a
> great
many. From these latest clarifications,
sounds like you're
> describing
some teenage african-american, sent-up for 5-10 on crack related
>
charges. Is this what you meant??? :-)
>
> >
> > david
rhaesa
> > salina,
Kansas
>
> cheers,
Douglas
>
> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
> save it,
just keep it off my wave is
> -- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
to be perfectly
honest i don't remember typing these words.
so i guess they
can mean whatever you want them to mean.
if i typed them i
can't believe that i wasn't joking. of
course, as the
day progressed i
may have convinced myself as all too often happens that
humour is deadly
serious.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
living in a state
of perpetual dream-state
--------------7F7DBDC6F87--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:35:37 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Kronos and Glass
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles,
If you enjoyed the Kronos Howl (what
about the Harry Partch piece
too? ...that's pretty beat.) you should listen to
Hydrogen Jukebox by
Philip Glass
which has some very apt readings by Allen. I've enjoyed it greatly.
By the way, along with my T-shirt order
from Jeffrey, I've ordered
"Last of the
Mocassins" - the signed version. Haven't gotten it yet...it'll
come with the
Breat list t-shirt.
Speaking of which....listen up
everyone...if you haven't yet gotten
your order in, do
so now...immediately...do not pass go, do not collect $200
- don't
wait...Jeffrey's depleted bank account awaits your order!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:44:45 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: lena wants to join the list and
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well the kid wants
to join the list, i told her to send subscribe to
this address i
had and it just bounced back. If someone
wants to help
her her e-mail
address is
lena@sunflower.com.
i have mixed
emotions, know if she gets on i probably should watch my
spelling because
she will tut tut me. She has shown such
an interest in
reading and
writing this summer i am thrilled. Her computer sits besides
mine and she and
i discuss self censorship of material with her, well i
think that she
will be fine.p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:49:38 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kronos and Glass
Comments: To:
Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
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Antoine Maloney
wrote:
> Speaking of which....listen up
everyone...if you haven't yet gotten
> your order
in, do so now...immediately...do not pass go, do not collect $200
> - don't
wait...Jeffrey's depleted bank account awaits your order!
What do you need
to do to order? I was cecking out Charley's page a few
days ago and saw
a picture of the Beat-L shirt asvertised to the public
for 19.95 or
something like that. How much are they for us?
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:27:04 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Perfection
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mike Skau wrote:
> Tolstoy once
said that a work of art is never finished--it is only abandoned.
Interesting - but
if an artist is experimenting with a particular form,
and that form
seems to have been perfected (i use 'seem', because
perfection is not
objective), is it not finished? To become the Buddha
you must kill the
Buddha. Perfect a style / project / work of art and
then drop it,
move on to another. Perhaps this is just a matter of
terminology.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 02:52:07 -0400
Reply-To: Sean Kelley <skelley@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Kelley
<skelley@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Hard-to-find videos for sale!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Beat
Documentaries/Fiction
**************************
"Burroughs" (1983, 87 min, Brookner) ...
$74.99
"Commissioner
of the Sewers" (1986, 60 min,
Maeck) ... $39.99
"Fried Shoes
Cooked Diamonds" (1978, 55 min, Allione)
... $39.99
"Gang of
Souls" (1988, 60 min, Beatty) ... $59.99
"Heart
Beat" (1980, 109 min, Byrum) ...
$29.99
"Jack
Kerouac's Road" (1987, 55 min,
Chaisson) ... $59.99
"Kerouac" (1984, 100 min, Allen & Burroughs) ...
INQUIRE
"The Life
and Times of Allen Ginsberg" (1993,
83 min, Aronson) ... $39.99
"Naked
Lunch" (1991, 115 min,
Cronenberg) ... $29.99
"Old Habits
Die Hard" (1990, 60 min,
compilation) ... $49.99
"Poetry in
Motion" (1985, 90 min, Mann) ...
$49.99
"Towers Open
Fire" (1962-72, 35 min, Balch) ...
$39.99
"What
Happened to Kerouac?" (1986, 96
min, Lerner & MacAdams) ... $79.99
If there are Jim
Jarmusch, Tom Waits, or other Beat-oriented video
titles you are
looking for, please email a request at Aardvark Video
at
http://www.voicenet.com/~skelley or simply respond to this message.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 02:38:17 -0400
Reply-To: "Dean M. Palmer"
<dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dean M. Palmer"
<dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Bukowski
Has anyone read
much Bukowski? I was peruding my local book vendor when I
noticed
"Pulp" and just basically thought it looked neat. I purchased,
read, and laughed
my ass off. That is one hell of a read. Is anyone else
familiar with his
work?
/\/\/\/\/\~Dean_Palmer@juno.com~/\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/\/\/\~Funny
English Joke; man and wife in living room, phone rings,
man answers and
says he wouldn't know, better call the coast guard, and
hangs up, wife
says, "Who was it, dear?" and man says, "I don't know,
some damn fool
who
wanted to know if
the coast was clear." har-har-har (Neal
Cassady)~/\/\/\/\/\
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:48:57 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: back from the ashes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi all!
Glad to be back.
Couldn't stay
away for long...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:43:42 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: References to T-shirt
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Here are the
URL's to save you some time if you don't have them handy
and would like to have a look.
BTW My apologies
to Charles Plymell. Shouldn't have called him Charley,
since I haven't
met him. However, there was no disrespect intended. The
shirt is
mentioned in his page http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
> April Fool's
Day 1997 S. Clay Wilson, Cherry Valley, NY During this
snow-storm'n, S.
> Clay Wilson
visit to the Plymells, April, 1997, spawn the idea of the now
famous S.
> Clay Wilson, BEAT-L, T-Shirt .... now available from Jeffrey H.
Weinberg owner of > Water Row Books. Jeffrey also sells
Last of the
Moccasins.
Wilson's drawing
for the shirt is pictured at the Waterrow page:
http://www.waterrowbooks.com/shirtpage.html
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:17:04 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Death of a Poet
In-Reply-To: <33B2014F.788A@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 10:42 PM -0700
6/25/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> does not
necessarily mean messiah-like. Perhaps
it is the power to see
> infinity and
immortality in little acts of humanness.
perhaps. am still pissy towards the idea, though. :-)
<<Part of
me would still like to see James Dean strung out the window of
his car
crash. perhaps his body thrown clear
from the wreckage? a
chicklet, or slim
jim snagging his tongue like a cigarette.
his fly open
and vultures
picking apart his penis.>>
and the
application of power, Diane, not just the "seeing"? The work
applied? what of that?
sorry to grind your beautiful idea into the
grindstone. put it through all my ideological
wringers. perhaps under the
strain of our 10
ton questions, between our cuddling remarks (quote
unquote), perhaps
our poetics shall meet??
"she'll
touch your perfect body with her mind" - Leonard Cohen (Suzanne)
What'd you think
of Maya's love-sad and death-happy poem?
awesome....
> DC
tired and strung
out, insomniac Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:18:43 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: The Role of the Poet]
In-Reply-To: <33B1DC66.1770@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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David writ:
> living in a
state of perpetual dream-state
did you dream you
were me? I wrote that.
xoxo, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:09:08 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: messing 'round
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSD/.3.91.970625220315.524B-100000@crystal.palace.net >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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"Robert H.
Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET> wrote:
>some antics
>
>
>
> Now here
> is
> nowhere
> is
> a God
> is
> a
dog
> as
> anywhere
> is
>any where
> is
> nowhere
>
>Words are
> not
>doors and
> i
> am not
> a
>word but
> i
> am
also
> not
> a
door
> you
>guess it's
> your
>turn still
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Eric Sapp
>rhs4@crystal.palace.net
>
>
&
gave Off sparks
On the stOne
dO Or
s
"NO One
Here Get Out
Alive"--jm
30yrs agO was nOt
sO sad
are we
wOrd-machine
Or
blurred sepia
phOtos
Only gOd knOws what we are
anyOne Offended
by my wOrds
im' guilt &
deeply apOlogies
but in all
sincerity i lOve u
my friends-- yrs
RinaldO
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:03:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: dreams and chickens
MIME-Version: 1.0
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runner911 wrote:
>
> David writ:
>
> > living
in a state of perpetual dream-state
>
> did you
dream you were me? I wrote that.
>
> xoxo,
Douglas
there was a
quoted portion from me that i didn't recall.
at least it
said RACE wrote
somewhere at the top. the writing
appeared that it
could have been
mine. i just was not consciously writing
anything on
that day ... except
for the bit about Barry ... the rest was merely deam
typing. so if you clipped yourself out of one of my
posts where i'd
left part or
whole of one of your posts so that it appeared that i had
written what you
had actually written then it would have made a bit more
sense that i
didn't recall the typing of it. but i
was still definitely
in a
dream-world. the last thing i really
consciously remembered doing
in thewhole thing
was saying well this thread with different quotes
about what poet
is could use the perspective of Colin Wilson.
But i
wasn't going to
say that it was definitive by any means.
just another
angle. then the discussion between us took off and
the rest of the
quotations were
lost in this alchemical dialogue that led to the
wonderful notion
of Kentucky Fried Chicken which unfortunately left me
quite hungry.
I think it will
be interesting and i may go back to it today or tomorrow
to go back to the
original thread with the quotations and see how they
weave together
into something that is -- less divisive -- perhaps.
sincerely,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. around these
parts the best chicken is called "Brookville Chicken".
After that comes
"Jim's". I imagine that
Kentucky Fried is third on the
list.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:08:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: does anyone here speak french?
translation by
greg e.:
<<
When the moon is full
and my heart longing for you
I think of you carressing me
with more love(tenderness)
than your cat.
But the moon is rarely full
and
your cat spies me with his yellow eyes, full
of hate.
It is clear to whom you belong.
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:58:43 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
Comments: To:
"Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@infinet.com>
In-Reply-To: <33B1E917.FFF@buchenroth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Wed, 25 Jun
1997, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
> Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> > I heard
on the news that one of our main exports to China is chicken > feet
> which they eat as a delicacy.
>
> Here in
Columbus, Ohio, a local vending machine company, Sanese, serves
> Chicken Beak
BBQ Sandwiches in vending machines for $1.50. They're not
> bad as long
as they grind 'er up real good. And a couple buddies, on a
> couple
occasions swore they'd bit into a piece a hoof in their BBQ Pork
> Sandwiches.
Also in Columbus
is a large Oriental food supply store (on N. High Street)
which sells a
number of strange animal parts and whatnot. At a decent price,
too.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:31:03 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SNET: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
(fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Saw this on
another list. Wasn't aware of this one...
----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 25 Jun
1997 23:49:53 -0400
From: Psyberdude
<rturmel@clark.net>
Reply-To:
snetnews@world.std.com
To:
snetnews@world.std.com
Subject: RE:
SNET: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
[snipped]
Don't forget that
this wonderfully warm person named Ambrose Pierce
said:
>>The world
would be a lot cleaner place if
>>all of
his kind were swept up and buried in a deep hole somewhere.
>>Every
newspaper writer who praised Ginsberg's trash,
>>every
newspaper editor who allowed the praise to be published in his
>>paper,
every university librarian who eagerly recommended Ginsberg's
>>filth as
"poetry," every literary
reviewer who treated Ginsberg
>>seriously
every one of them should be rounded up and shot.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:05:10 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
"Dean M. Palmer" <dean_palmer@JUNO.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<19970626.023818.16198.0.dean_palmer@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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havent read very
much prose by him, but i love his poetry. he has a sort
of drunken
clarity like being poked in the arm hard with a dull spoon.
~days in the
library and nights in bars~
adios,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
"you tell me
why i'm on fire like old dry garbage" buk (from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:18:54 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
"Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSD/.3.91.970626115948.20197B-100000@crystal.palace.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Thu, 26 Jun
1997, Robert H. Sapp wrote:
> havent read
very much prose by him, but i love his poetry. he has a sort
> of drunken
clarity like being poked in the arm hard with a dull spoon.
His prose is
excellent (imho better than his poetry but maybe that's just
me, i like prose
more in general anyway), very clean and tight -- like HST,
he's one of the
better Beat-related writers when it comes to understanding
punctuation and
writing clean, tight prose.
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:51:12 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: spontaneity and writing
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mike writ:
>
><<
Tolstoy (not a Beat, but a great writer nonetheless) once said that a work
>of art is
never finished--it is only abandoned.
Well, I did not
mean to go on at quite such length. Apologies.>>
Never read any of
Tolstoy's work because of the length.
yours was
bearable. Interesting to hear these ideas. In a round a bout way,
spontaneity
connects over to the thread on "accidents" and how these are
the same as
"planned" events. And coming
late to this discussion, let
me only say that
drugs (of all kinds) cause the mind to litter itself
with accidents.
ASIDE::You folx
ever watch the "actor's studio" on Bravo TV? Every
interview end
with a question by Bernard Pevo (sp?) that includes the
question:
"what is your favorite drug? It can
be a feeling, a chemical,
whatnot." Some people might answer love, coffee, the
smell of donuts in
the morning.
Well, my point
being that the "best kind" of spontaneity sucks out all
the previous
accidents and spills them together in a new form. Takes up
all the abandoned
pieces of earlier works, the shavings, the setasides,
and makes them
work together. Of course, if you've
already wiped your
slate clean, you
have no ideas, or are simply unable to hoover your mind
open - then well,
that's a different story.
perhaps
spontaneity is just a remembering of possibilities (abandoned
accidents,
heavenly interventions, intiution, self-destruction...).
>
>>
Cordially,
>> Mike
Skau
cheers,
Douglas <<looking forward to
another 8 hours of spont..zzzzz
work)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:49:59 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: SNET: Re: ADV Weekly Transcripts
(fwd)
Comments: To:
Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Let me guess--a
critic. To paraphrase the Bard:
'First thing we
do let's take all the critic's typewriters away'
(I don't advocate
killing)
>>Don't
forget that this wonderfully warm person named Ambrose Pierce
>>said:
blah, blah blah
>>every
literary reviewer who treated Ginsberg seriously every one of
>>them
should be rounded up and shot.
blah, blah, blah
I'm trying desperately to decide if
critics are building bad Karma or
paying it off.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:05:34 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: poesia and posies
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert gives
reasons for not revising:
>> 1) i am
lazy. proud slacker.
>> 2) like
to save shit.
>> 3)no
time, more stuff to compose.
>>
>>
etc,etc,etc.
>
perhaps I watch
too much TV, but heard this movie studio exec commenting
on why certain
films are readily accepted for distribution and why
others are
not. She went on record saying, "if
only they included one
more car crash,
one more scene with scantily clad women, more guns,
another.... then,
they could recoup their investments, get money to make
the next
film." She seemed incredulous that
more people didn't do that.
Compromise.
I understand both
sides. Have always resisted outside
forces telling me
to
"polish" my work. fuck em, I
said, if they can't take a joke. And I
just continued
with #3, composing, composing. Running
down my own
track. train of thought.
So what happens
with all the stuff you save? Ever go
back and look at
it? I've been scouring my archives recently,
looking for inspiration,
ways to refurbish
old ideas. You might consider doing the
same. It's
kinda fun
actually. "I thought that? I did that?
man, that was
stupid.... oh
great, I'd thought I'd lost those..... I can use these....
trash, trash,
trash." As someone else was saying,
the cleared space is
nice too. Room for more shit! ;-)
just wait till
you *have* to move. Your #1 reason will
evaporate and
you'll be
surprised at the results. And come one,
you revise, I know
you do. Admit it!
><<slackers
forever>>, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:43:17 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Dear Chickenheads:
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear
Chickenheads, slackers, and fellow beat travellers:
Have received a
message from god, <<hail almighty>>, to cease and desist
my non beat
postings. Ah, my line was at its end,
this I knew, but to
receive a message
from on high.... ah, this is a blessing,
indeed. I
can return to my
gang now and feel satisfied that my work here is
complete. <<Rack one for me boys, I'm comin'
home!>> :-)
Sorry to have
plagued you all. Will be sparse and to
the point in the
future.
beat on, brother
deep, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:24:52 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education
thereof)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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J. Stauffer
wrote:
><<In
our world a poet is someone who can get at least a few other people
>to agree that
what he or she does is poetry.>>
Yes, but can a
poet exist soley? alone without
recognition? Before
they got
published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the
beats
"poets"? Or were they just a
bunch of educated whacks? Before
every word became
sacred, before the eyes of the world became them, I
wonder what the
early years were like. Any reading
recommendations??
Something akin to
Norman Mailer's "portait of picasso as a young man"
would be great.
>> J
Stauffer
brother deep,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:26:24 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: Alchemist
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I don't know if
any of you have read the book Alchemist by Paolo Koellio (I
think that the
spelling is similar to that). It is deffinitely worth it. It
may answer some
of everybody's dillemmas.
Ksenija
PS. You may have
noticed by the name that I am not of American origin; as a
matter of fact, I
live far, far away, in Yugoslavi (remember that country:
war,
protests...). Well, maybe you will like to know that most of us have
grown up on
Kerouac and the beatsm and that it doesn't matter where you
live, but HOW.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:29:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the dance of the seven beggars
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<Pine.BSD/.3.91.970625220315.524B-100000@crystal.palace.net>
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it was meant to
be centered on page. if you are interested, convert. loses
a lot with left
justified. mc
THE DANCE OF THE
SEVEN BEGGARS
1
i come to your
office
weekly
50 minutes
out of all the
minutes
in the week
it seems hardly
barely
not
enough
time
i panic,
as i spill out
overflowing
in the minutes
outside
the
regulation
50
obvious
it's my fault
in the office
your voice is warm
warm and helpful
you listen so
well
and when i am
able to look in your eyes
they are as warm
as your voice
but i am just a
beggar here
one of many
seven or so
more or less:
no differrence
i
don't pay
you say
that's ok
but however i see
it
i am a beggar
in the wall
street
balance sheet
of psychotherapy
i
know
i have no right
to ask for
more
already
beggar-woman
the woman in the
shoe
too many children
to know
just what to
do
beggar child
woman
hears
"be grateful
for what you get,
shut up about the
rest!"
shrieksmother in
my head
she's still there
she's angry
that secrets are
being told
and that we all
NEED so much
it frightens me
i live with my
mother
all the other
minutes in the
week
i'm too
polite to kick
her out
i've gotten
better
at calling
and listening to
your voice
without
asking for rescue
i hardly call at
all
anymore
but, last week i
called
and no warmth in
yr voice
an "oh
well"
said in an
"oh well" sort of voice
in fact
you did say
"oh
well" that day
i needed a
plumber and i called the electrician again.
you were right
dead right
one more black
mark
i can't get it
right
ah.....go fuck
yourself
i hear you say,
reasonably,
"you need a
lawyer not me "
you gave advice
i took the advice
your dog in
background
obvious
you called from
your home
i
called during
office hours
i
i wanted only a
few moments of
office time
the humiliation
of hearing your
dog bark
in your house
my face still
burns in shame
two things at
once:
sound advice
cold voice
obvious in your
voice,
distant
many quiet/no
speak moments
obvious
i had intruded
obvious
i had intruded
obvious
that all the wes
in me
have to be more
invisible
in order
to be seen
this dance of the
seven veils
the seven beggars
the seven
children
the seven
hellbentforleatherchicks
the
seven beggar
child-women
this dance must
be danced
in your
office only
we yet don't know the steps outside
the regulation
50
we often stumble
beat is off
paradox:
we just called
to hear the
beat of your
heart
obvious
that the week
holds 50 minutes
and should hold
no more
don't want to do
the ' so unworthy'
dance
no more.
mc 6/26/97
2
THIS IS NOT A
GUILT TRIP(works well with this and this
is not love song
sex ps)
i
come to your
office
weekly
50 minutes
out of all the
minutes
remaining in the
week
it
seems hardly
barely
not
enough
i panic,
overflowing,
screaming, throw
us a rope!
or,
quick switchz:
>>>>>>>>>>ah
go fuck yrself
i
gotta get down
from this cross
i've been riding
all these long
days
but, as long as
i'm on it,
sit up and hear
the truth!
i can't pay you
and in the
economics of therapy
hierarchies
thrive
money talks, or
lets others talk for hours and years
no silver crosses
your palm
hierarchies are
maintained:
we are on
c-rations:
the 50 minute hour
"be grateful
for what you've got!
rants the mother
in my head
yep she's still
up there
rent free.
talk of family
economies!
when we spoke
last week
on the phone
your warm voice
disappeared!
and a laconic
attitude seemed to take its place
an 'oh well'
said in an 'oh
well' sort of voice
your sound advice
cold voice
dog in the background
(obvious
lots of quiet/no
speak moments
( i had intruded)
obvious
that the week
holds 50 minutes
for me.
no difference.
mc 6/26/97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:27:24 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:
Comments: To:
"Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970626184317Z-5152@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
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speaking of the
almighty --
i just heard
the ironing board
drying
(crying)
"The Holy
Spirit specializes in setting people free from crack." -- a
hispanic
evangelist on a television church program on higher cable
What is the Warld
coming
too
?
from,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Thu, 26 Jun
1997, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
> Dear
Chickenheads, slackers, and fellow beat travellers:
>
> Have
received a message from god, <<hail almighty>>, to cease and desist
> my non beat
postings. Ah, my line was at its end,
this I knew, but to
> receive a
message from on high.... ah, this is a
blessing, indeed. I
> can return to
my gang now and feel satisfied that my work here is
>
complete. <<Rack one for me boys,
I'm comin' home!>> :-)
>
> Sorry to
have plagued you all. Will be sparse and
to the point in the
> future.
>
> beat on,
brother deep, Douglas
>
>
> "the map
is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
> (attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:48:28 -0400
Reply-To: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Subject: i say, i say chickenhawk
Comments: To:
"Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970626184317Z-5152@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
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statement of
intent: i intend to post all information
i feel relative to
this
list-serve. i belong to other lists
which discuss topics which
do not directly
touch upon beat literature. content to
discuss the act
of signing, binary opposites, and logocentrism elsewhere i
shall continue to
post messages "beat". each
member opts to recieve this
mail, i have been
sorry to see some leave the list, rather than recieve
the mail. i've deleted your messages and railed against
you publicly and
privately. i will continue to delete those i find
bothersome and not
respond to those
that i would rather dissagree with privately.
i shall
not stop having
opinions or intrests which conflicts with many of you, as
you i. please ignore me if i bother you, as i you
(sometimes).
bill will censor
can censor me if he pleases. were that i
was the passive
poet.
the process of information transferance
in a post modern culture
requires canon
makers. whom have you read? why?
what do we collect in
the
libraries. what shall we teach and
create? i did not come to this
list for idols,
personally. i have come to learn and
share perceptions of
the word. they will conflict with others, i will shake
my fist, i will
argue, i will
see, i may possibly apologize.
i just wanted to
let everyone know how i will contine to post.
if i leave
the list, i have
been kicked off. you may contact me
privately if it ever
happens. should i ever offend you, please don't leave,
fight back -- its
more beat. we read tough books, some have lead tough
lives. how could
anyone possibly
fucking expect anyone else on the list to mind the q's.
this is not
addressed to douglas or anyone else. i
respect almost all
of you and i
cannot thank you all enough for the steel taste of your work.
mwbarton.
On Thu, 26 Jun
1997, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
> Dear Chickenheads,
slackers, and fellow beat travellers:
>
> Have
received a message from god, <<hail almighty>>, to cease and desist
> my non beat
postings. Ah, my line was at its end,
this I knew, but to
> receive a
message from on high.... ah, this is a
blessing, indeed. I
> can return
to my gang now and feel satisfied that my work here is
>
complete. <<Rack one for me boys,
I'm comin' home!>> :-)
>
> Sorry to
have plagued you all. Will be sparse and
to the point in the
> future.
>
> beat on,
brother deep, Douglas
>
>
> "the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
> (attribution unknown) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:55:00 -0400
Reply-To: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alchemist
Comments: To: Ksenija
Simic <ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
In-Reply-To:
<199706261926.VAA01717@galois.mi.sanu.ac.yu>
MIME-version: 1.0
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could you tell me
something about koellio? don't mind the
hometown
launguage
games. it seems through this general
thread regarding the
creative process
people have been lining up into various theory camps.
watch out, the
romantics have claimed the sun for the poet, the
deconstuctions
haven't spoken, the artists wave their products, and the
list-serve boils.
mwbarton.
On Thu, 26 Jun
1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
> I don't know
if any of you have read the book Alchemist by Paolo Koellio (I
> think that
the spelling is similar to that). It is deffinitely worth it. It
> may answer some
of everybody's dillemmas.
>
> Ksenija
>
> PS. You may
have noticed by the name that I am not of American origin; as a
> matter of
fact, I live far, far away, in Yugoslavi (remember that country:
> war,
protests...). Well, maybe you will like to know that most of us have
> grown up on
Kerouac and the beatsm and that it doesn't matter where you
> live, but
HOW.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:47:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.LNX.3.94.970626121724.10470U-100000@seka.nacs.net>
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At 12:18 PM
6/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 26
Jun 1997, Robert H. Sapp wrote:
>
>> havent
read very much prose by him, but i love his poetry. he has a sort
>> of
drunken clarity like being poked in the arm hard with a dull spoon.
>
>His prose is
excellent (imho better than his poetry but maybe that's just
>me, i like
prose more in general anyway), very clean and tight -- like HST,
>he's one of
the better Beat-related writers when it comes to understanding
>punctuation
and writing clean, tight prose.
Actually, buk had
a disdain dislike for the beats, and did not associate
himself with
them. he was partial to a few, but all of the beats.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:40:19 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: jacking off
Content-Type:
text
Hi,
The June 9, 1997
issue of _Time_ had a cover feature on generation X.
One article,
"Peace is an Xcellent Adventure," by Joshua Cooper Ramo,
begins in this
fashion:
It's hard to
judge a generation by its statistics. Five years ago, my
generation was a
group of overstuffed slackers; today we're Gordon Gekkos.
An unlikely
transformation. But there's at least one statistic that
resonates: more
of us are taking a full five years to get through college.
Most of the
country's parents look at this as a sort of slacker ritual--
the obligatory
year of mosh pitting, coffee drinking and Kerouac reading
before
graduation. (p. 69)
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/26/97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 20:05:34 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Power of a Poet (was Death of a Poet)
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> At 10:42 PM
-0700 6/25/97, Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > Godlike
does not necessarily mean messiah-like.
Perhaps it is the
>power to see
> >
infinity and immortality in little acts of humanness.
>
> runner911
wrote:
> and the
application of power, Diane, not just the "seeing"? The work
>
applied? what of that? sorry to grind your beautiful idea into the
>
grindstone. put it through all my
ideological wringers. perhaps under the
> strain of
our 10 ton questions, between our cuddling remarks (quote
> unquote),
perhaps our poetics shall meet??
>
Perhaps. Have always loved that
particular Leonard Cohen line. But
first I want to
discuss this power idea a little more.
When you say the
"work
applied," are you referring to the power of the poem on the reader
that causes him
to feel or act, or of the power of the poet in creating
the poem? Both are essentially addressing the power of
a thought or
idea to transform
experience or transmit awareness. Take
this short poem
from Ginsberg:
Who
>From Great
Consciousness vision Harlem 1948 buildings standing in
Eternity
I realized entire
Universe was manifestation of One Mind--
My teacher was
William Blake--my life work Poesy,
transmitting that
spontaneous awareness to Mankind.
or, are we
discussing power as in this passage from Transcription of
Organ Music,
I want people to
bow when they see me and say he is gifted with poetry,
he has seen the
presence of the Creator.
And the Creator
gave me a shot of his presence to gratify my wish,
so as not to
cheat me of my yearning for him.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 17:10:55 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Power of a Poet (was Death of a Poet)
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Diane writ:
><<Perhaps. Have always loved that particular Leonard
Cohen line. But
>first I want
to discuss this power idea a little more.
When you say the
>"work applied,"
are you referring to [[1]] the power of the poem on the
>reader
>that causes
him to feel or act, or of [[2]] the power of the poet in creating
>the
poem? Both are essentially addressing
the power of a thought or
idea to transform
experience or transmit awareness.>>
Hm. <<thinking>> I guess I'm concerned with [[1]] the power of
the
>poet via
poetry upon the reader and the resulting actions.
><< Take this short poem
>from
Ginsberg:>> -- Good! an actual example to wring ourselves over!!
>
>> Who
>> From
Great Consciousness vision Harlem 1948 buildings standing in
>> Eternity
>> I
realized entire Universe was manifestation of One Mind--
>> My
teacher was William Blake--my life work Poesy,
>>
transmitting that spontaneous awareness to Mankind.
one mind -->
Great Consciousness ---> Harlem 1948 buildings --->
Eternity ---> realization of manifestation
----> ah, attribution (of
Blake) ----> recognition (of life's work, Poesy)
-----> purpose
(transmitting
spont awareness) ----> reception (by us, reading the poem)
Is this his train
of thought? seeing the building and
realizing it's
potential
context, he attributes a social consciousness to his
reminiscences of
Blake and his life's work of poetry.
Sees himself as
the receptor, as
the channel to transmit the past into the present.
He's a high
priest, then? speaking for god to all
mankind?
Well, my shackles
go up when ever I see such generalizations (Universe,
Mankind,
Eternity). <<hm, thinking> But what is he looking at? He's
looking at a 1948
building in Harlem. Don't know my
history very well,
but can we assume
it wasn't a pretty site? Can we also
assume this was
a Ghetto of some
kind? That he is saying such
"social problems" have
continued
throughout the centuries? Well, why not
just come out and say
so?! Instead he makes himself a savior of sorts,
sent out to save and
redeem
[perhaps?]. Our 1980s/1990s critical
thought classes ask us to
recognize our
audience, to pick apart our motives. I
don't want to say
he was assuming
the "white man's burden" because I don't know if this is
applicable or
not.
But assuming he
was declaring a burden to be fulfilled, let's now ask
what POWER he
levied towards this issue. How was it
received? What was
the "conversation"
between him and this "great consciousness"? That's
what I want to
know. Or is it enough to cite the train
of thought and
the parameters
for discourse? [probably]
If one form of
artistic power must be "acceptable" and another one not,
then yes, I would
prefer god to speak and have us all hash out the
details amongst
ourselves. Let us dissent, argue, behave
in
chickenheaded
ways. This form of power has the power
to unite, to
embody, and
sustain - rather than condescend, betray, and manipulate.
[at least I think
that's what I mean... :-)]
><<or,
are we discussing power as in this passage from Transcription of
>Organ Music,
>
>I want people
to bow when they see me and say he is gifted with poetry,
>he has seen
the presence of the Creator.
>And the
Creator gave me a shot of his presence to gratify my wish,
>so as not to
cheat me of my yearning for him.>>
Well, it's a
strange thing to be seen with as an image that coincides
with a
yearning. It's a "complete"
feeling. chest pumped out, eyes
level, and
perhaps even a few moments of satisfaction.
This I have no
problem
with. And if I think multi-culturally
and use "bow when they
see me" as a
sign of respect, then ok. BUT any other
coercion, any
other arrogant
remarks will get extreme vibes from me.
So yes, this
second example is
what I'm concerned about when I hear god associated
with poetry and
the act of creation. And all Ginsberg is
asking for is
recognition [not
fame, fortune, record company deals, etc].
This I can
live with. Would you characterize him as a
"humble" man? And for what
I know, I admire
his support for other writers, poets, etc.
That is
power at its
best. Yes?
PEOPLE HAVE THE
POWER or POWER TO THE PEOPLE
>> DC
thanx for
tracking down and typing these examples!!!
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:03:55 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
"Things rank
and gross in nature possess it merely." Shakespeare
"There's a
weed growing in the garden." Ferp an old rounder friend of Betty
and Frank's to
signify there might be heat around.
"Say
Heav'nly Muse, shall not thy sacred vein/Afford a Present to the Infant
God?" Milton
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:27:49 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Power of a Poet (was Death of a Poet)
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>Penn,
Douglas, K wrote:
>
> I guess I'm
concerned with [[1]] the power of the
> >poet via
poetry upon the reader and the resulting actions.
>
>
><< Take this short poem
> >from
Ginsberg:>> -- Good! an actual example to wring ourselves over!!
> >
> >> Who
> >>
From Great Consciousness vision Harlem 1948 buildings standing in
> >>
Eternity
> >> I
realized entire Universe was manifestation of One Mind--
> >> My
teacher was William Blake--my life work Poesy,
> >>
transmitting that spontaneous awareness to Mankind.
>
> one mind
--> Great Consciousness ---> Harlem 1948 buildings --->
>
Eternity ---> realization of
manifestation ----> ah,
attribution (of
> Blake) ----> recognition (of life's work, Poesy)
-----> purpose
>
(transmitting spont awareness) ----> reception (by us, reading the
>poem)
>
> Is this his
train of thought? seeing the building
and realizing it's
> potential
context, he attributes a social consciousness to his
>
reminiscences of Blake and his life's work of poetry. Sees himself as
> the
receptor, as the channel to transmit the past into the present.
> He's a high
priest, then? speaking for god to all
mankind?
I do not think it
is so much a social consciousness as a visionary
consciousness. Mythic vision brought on by viewing the
buildings, and
internally
connecting it to Blake's prophetic visions, and in one instant
(separate from
space/time), a moment of epiphany, enlightenment
connecting him,
the poet, to the "universe as a manifestation of one
Mind." He
sees himself as visionary poet, in the tradition of Blake (as
yes, a kind of
high priest, speaking of his illumination for mankind to
understand. An archetypal high priest (poet) transmitting
spontaneous
awareness to us,
the reader.
> Well, my
shackles go up when ever I see such generalizations (Universe,
> Mankind,
Eternity). <<hm, thinking> But what is he looking at? He's
> looking at a
1948 building in Harlem. Don't know my
history very well,
> but can we
assume it wasn't a pretty site? Can we
also assume this was
> a Ghetto of
some kind? That he is saying such
"social problems" have
> continued
throughout the centuries? Well, why not
just come out and
>say
> so?! Instead he makes himself a savior of sorts,
sent out to save and
> redeem
[perhaps?]. Our 1980s/1990s critical
thought classes ask us to
> recognize
our audience, to pick apart our motives.
I don't want to say
> he was
assuming the "white man's burden" because I don't know if this
>is
> applicable
or not.
> But assuming he was declaring a burden to be
fulfilled, let's now ask
> what POWER
he levied towards this issue. How was it
received? What
>was
> the
"conversation" between him and this "great
consciousness"? That's
> what I want
to know. Or is it enough to cite the
train of thought and
> the
parameters for discourse? [probably]
>
> If one form
of artistic power must be "acceptable" and another one not,
> then yes, I
would prefer god to speak and have us all hash out the
> details
amongst ourselves. Let us dissent,
argue, behave in
>
chickenheaded ways. This form of power
has the power to unite, to
> embody, and
sustain - rather than condescend, betray, and manipulate.
> [at least I
think that's what I mean... :-)]
I think the generalizations, Universe,
Mankind, Eternity, are part of
the direct line
to the way Blake wrote. I don't see any
connections to
the black/white social
problems. View of Harlem probably was
because he
lived in Harlem
for a time (can't remember the exact years, but it was
early on, like
40's). I don't see any direct social
connection, only a
visionary
consciousness-type one. I also don't see
any conversation
between him and
the great consciousness, only an immediate mental
recognition that
the entire universe was manifestation of one mind, the
poet as the
receptor of this knowledge, feeling it the poet's burden, so
to speak, to
reveal this knowledge to us the reader.
The ability to do
this, create this
poem, is the power of the poet.
>
><<or, are we discussing power as in this passage from Transcription
of
> >Organ
Music,
> >
> >I want
people to bow when they see me and say he is gifted with poetry,
> >he has
seen the presence of the Creator.
> >And the
Creator gave me a shot of his presence to gratify my wish,
> >so as
not to cheat me of my yearning for him.>>
>
> Well, it's a
strange thing to be seen with as an image that coincides
> with a
yearning. It's a "complete"
feeling. chest pumped out, eyes
> level, and
perhaps even a few moments of satisfaction.
This I have no
> problem
with. And if I think multi-culturally
and use "bow when they
> see me"
as a sign of respect, then ok. BUT any
other coercion, any
> other
arrogant remarks will get extreme vibes from me. So yes, this
> second
example is what I'm concerned about when I hear god associated
> with poetry
and the act of creation. And all
Ginsberg is asking for is
> recognition
[not fame, fortune, record company deals, etc].
This I can
> live
with. Would you characterize him as a
"humble" man? And for what
> I know, I
admire his support for other writers, poets, etc. That is
> power at its
best. Yes?
>
> PEOPLE HAVE
THE POWER or POWER TO THE PEOPLE>
Yes, I think he
was speaking of recognition as respect for the gift a
poet has. Kind of back to the idea of speaking from god
to all mankind,
the poet as the
receptor. Still, however, I think
evoking godlike
creation in the
poem. As a person, I think Ginsberg was
humble,
unselfishly
promoting other writers and standing up with his voice for
many he saw as
voiceless in society. Also one cannot
avoid the other
human side of
that equation, that he did become enthralled by his own
fame at times,
which is where Charles Plymell's suggestion that he became
"a whore of Molach" to some
extent. Makes me think also that in the
vision of Harlem
image, somewhere there was a recognition of man's
creations,
buildings, being monuments of Molach, perhaps an equivalent in
Blake's system of
Urizen, and how man lifts the man-created city,
("pavement,
trees, radios, tons, lifting the city to heaven which exists
and is everywhere
about us") while it is the responsibility of the poet
to use his power
to transmit an awareness of the eternal, one-mind
universe in
opposition to the man-created universe.
I guess I see in
this the poet as god using his power to create in his
words a vision
that expands humanness; a good kind of power, however, one
that leaves the
poet burdened with visionary knowledge and
responsibility.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.
Duh... I forget.
I thought it was so obvious. I think the Kronos CD is full
of cacaphony.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:23:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: References to T-shirt
Leon:
Thanks for
mentioning my book. I'm writing a prologue for my new book which
goes from beat to
gen-x.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:27:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
In a message
dated 97-06-26 11:29:12 EDT, you write:
<< swore
they'd bit into a piece a hoof in their BBQ Pork
> Sandwiches. >>
I notice they eat
a lot of meat out west. It is the cheapest commodity. All
these farmers on
their million dollar tractors paid for by the us government
farm welfare
program to raise all this grain to transport freightened animals
in the night in
rails cars and trucks across Kansas and Dakotas. And the
chickens in
Arkansas strung by their millions of feet. Clinton and Colonel
Sanders are
beginning to look alike. Maybe ate too many chicken feet in Hong
Kong.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:53:47 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
In a message
dated 97-06-26 08:00:49 EDT, you write:
<< Has
anyone read much Bukowski? >>
John Fowler at
Grist magazine had all his stories in little mags.(1960's)
Someone told me
recently I was in his letters book from Black Sparrow. When I
first saw the mag
Beat Scene from England, I was in with Buk on cover, I ask
why Buk was in
it. I didn't know he hung with the beats. The Beat Scence is
more of a generic
nostagia mag. Lot's of good coverage and
uncoverage of the
beats. I
mentioned Buk to Ferlinghetti once,
asking why he didn't publish
him. I guess he
has by now. That was after City Lights turned down Naked
Lunch. I don't
remember his being around beats much except that great story
of Neal meeting
him right before Mexico.(A.D. Winans) Good description of
Neal's driving by
Buk. Good phots of Buk in the German mag I'm in with him
called "TIP
magazin from Berlin. This was just as Carl Weissner was making
him famous with
an early version of "Bar Fly."
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:00:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: References to T-shirt
In a message
dated 97-06-26 12:33:15 EDT, you write:
<< BTW My
apologies to Charles Plymell. Shouldn't have called him Charley,
since I haven't met him. However, there was no
disrespect intended. The
shirt is mentioned in his page
http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
> April Fool's Day 1997 S. Clay Wilson,
Cherry Valley, NY During this
snow-storm'n, S.
> Clay Wilson visit to the Plymells, April,
1997, spawn the idea of the now
famous S.
> Clay Wilson, BEAT-L, T-Shirt .... now available from Jeffrey
H.
Weinberg owner of > Water Row Books. Jeffrey also sells
Last of the
Moccasins.
Wilson's drawing for the shirt is pictured at
the Waterrow page:
http://www.waterrowbooks.com/shirtpage.html
leon >>
No apology. I
don't care what anyone calls me. The reason I print my name in
full is to make
the distiction from my wife Pam, who also reads and replys on
the list.
Sometimes we reply together when we don't fight.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:05:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Visionaries (was more ketchup)
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Michael Skau
wrote:
>
> ...regarding
Eliot's visionary qualities--I see him as resembling the
> mystic's
"dark night of the soul" (St. John of the Cross).
"Prufrock"
> concludes
with the mermaid vision of escape from his drowning in the
> world around
him (I think Marie quoted the passage); _The Waste Land_
> creates an
apocalyptic world which has a number of significant
>parallels
> to that of
_Howl_, and the message of the thunder offers a trace of
>hope
> in the
sterile land. Part II of "Ash Wednesday" begins, "Lady, three
> white
leopards sat under a juniper-tree / In the cool of the day,
>having
> fed to
satiety / On my legs my heart my liver and that which had been
> contained /
In the hollow round of my skull. And God said / Shall
>these
> bones
live?" Is there a definition of _visionary_ which this does
>satisfy?
> All 4 voices
of the _Four Quartets_ also provide the spiritual visions,
> particularly
at the end of Little Gidding, where the sins of the garden
> are purified
and redeemed by the fire and the rose.
You do make a compelling argument for Eliot as
a visionary. Enough so
that I need to reread some Eliot before
responding specifically to your
points.
Hope to get to it this weekend. I
am very interested in
discussing what people think is visionary and
how Ginsberg and any other
poets of the century present these qualities
(don't mean to exclude
visionary qualities of Kerouac or Burroughs
either). Does being a
visionary imply not only the idea of the
prophetic voice but also a
vision that links a higher
consciousness(outside of time) and a social
consciousness (in time), i.e. Blake's
knowledge applied to the path of
Albion/England and Ginsberg's knowledge
applied to the path of America.
Does the "dark night of the soul"
not also necessitate that the
struggler's/writer's vision incorporate a
positive response that
illuminates one to the plight of society, as well as to the
mental aspect, (above-and-beyond) awakening of
consciousness as in the
possibilities of the universe? Are visionary poets simply conduits of
mythical/mythic knowledge and how is that
shaped by their personal
experience?
Sorry for all the heavy questions in a row, sounds a little
overwhelming now as I reread it.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:26:56 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Early years
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Douglas wrote:
> Yes, but can
a poet exist soley? alone without
recognition? Before
> they got
published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the
> beats
"poets"? Or were they just a
bunch of educated whacks? Before
> every word
became sacred, before the eyes of the world became them, I
> wonder what
the early years were like. Any reading
recommendations??
> Something
akin to Norman Mailer's "portait of picasso as a young man"
> would be
great.
For early years,
simple biographies are good. "Ginsberg", by Barry Miles
(he also wrote
Burroughs bio - haven't read it yet). Especially for
Ginsberg, his bio
opens his poetry up tremendously = many of the "who"s
in
"Howl" are identified, and the whole family story is clarified for
better reading of
"Kaddish".
As to the early
years, they are probably very much like any of yours -
that is to say,
if writing is all.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:32:49 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: War
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Ksenija wrote:
> it doesn't
matter where you live
> but HOW.
Good stuff.
I take it for
granted you are an artist. How have <<war, protests...>>
affected your
creations?
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:25:38 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> Neal's
driving by Buk. Good phots of Buk in the German mag I'm in with him
> called
"TIP magazin from Berlin. This was just as Carl Weissner was making
> him famous
with an early version of "Bar Fly."
Charles:
Can you recall
aproximately what year or issue of "Tip" magazine from
Berlin you were
in? Your "Bar Fly" time reference went right by me as I
have not read
Bukowski. (yet)
Thanks.
-Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:18:56 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Visionary poetry
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Diane Carter
wrote:
> Are
visionary poets simply conduits of mythical/mythic knowledge and how is >
that shaped by their personal experience?
I write / speak
out of my own experience and identity as Poet.
We all are
visionaries, most do not tap into their powers = potential.
If the poet has a
feel for mythology, and views himself as part of that
mythology, he is
admitting to and joining a tradition. That tradition is
past down through
the thousands of years by any number of art forms -
the written page,
storytelling, dance, painting, the song, etc. - and
then through
whatever else = instinct = intuition = the One =
Consciousness =
imagination.
I often wonder,
maybe it is the visionaries who are not whole. They need
to tap into the
'greater force' to be whole, whereas the vast masses
lead satisfactory
lives with no need for the esoteric. (but history has
shown that the
vast masses do not lead satisfactory lives . . . )
And according to
certain schools of thought, there is no 'greater
force', there is
only what is . . . which brings us back to: visionary =
abundant
imagination, which is good.
J. Neudorfer =
New Villager . . . perpetually on the look for archetypes
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:25:47 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: An introduction and status of a poet
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Hi,
I'm fairly new to
the list and this is my first post:
A) I'm interested
to know what you folks think about the portrayal of
Kerouac and
GInsberg in the movie Naked Lunch. I thought
that it was
ridiculous.
B)On the poet
issue:
>Yes, but can
a poet exist soley? alone without
recognition? Before
>they got
published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the
>beats
"poets"? Or were they just a
bunch of educated whacks? -- or before I
saw Ginsberg on eMTyV (puke) --
I believe there
is a deeper question involved:
Poetry is art, it
is not the hardest task in the world to sit down and
rhyme a few words
together or wipe your ass on a notebook and call it a
poem. The true test is "is it art?" When
a man paints a portrait is he
not a
painter? Yes, but an artist...
maybe? The question is, do the
words move you
beyond prosaic jumble of letters on paper?
To ask if a poet
can exist alone is an impossible question.
Why does a
poet write? If a poet writes for expression/communication
then, that
poet will be
unsatisfied if he is not recognized, but poets writing for
pure
releaseoutlet don't often care one way or the other.
Just my opinion,
Nice to be here,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 23:30:29 -0700
Reply-To: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education
thereof)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:24 PM
6/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
>J. Stauffer
wrote:
>
>><<In
our world a poet is someone who can get at least a few other people
>>to agree
that what he or she does is poetry.>>
>
>Yes, but can
a poet exist soley? alone without
recognition? Before
>they got
published and commercially sanitized by Time Magazine, were the
>beats
"poets"? Or were they just a
bunch of educated whacks? Before
>every word
became sacred, before the eyes of the world became them, I
>wonder what
the early years were like. Any reading
recommendations??
>Something
akin to Norman Mailer's "portait of picasso as a young man"
>would be
great.
>
>>> J
Stauffer
>
>brother deep,
Douglas
>
>
I started to
respond to this stuff a few days back but I trashed it. this
what is poetry
back and forth, role of the poet, poet, poet, poet stuff is
absurd. I have tried to stay out of it because I just
got nuts reading it
all. you write poetry because you have to/need
to/want to... fuck
everything
else. there is nothing to explain. fuck
the money, fuck the
fucking, fuck it
all. poets are sick people that have the
need like any
other fool human
that needs. it is there and you feed it,
spontaneous or
sculpted w/chisel
in stone, no matter. it is the bastard
child of letters,
the bottom rung
on the entertainment food chain. it is
sincere and
delicious,
wretched and sick. it is glorious beyond
all, it is magic. it
is gambling from
the inside. James seems to be the most
on target in
general (it's
been a long day... especially w/the idea of poets make). from
the greek I
beleive : poet/maker. I guess I feel the
same about this that
some feel about
discussing maybe, what is beat... all the best
xxxooo
s.a.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:51:59 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Kerouac.
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At 19.29 25/06/97
+0200, Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it> wrote:
>DEAR friends,
>Lowell
Massachusetts on the tombstone:
>"Ti Jean
- John Kerouac who honored Life - his wife Stella"
>
>---
>yrs
>Rinaldo.
>
"Please
permit me to introduce myself...
My name is Henry
Cru and my best friend "Jack Kerouac"
sent ne the
enclosed postal card on my trip around the
world. I am an
electrician on the President Jackson and
we are scheduled
to arrive in Genoa June sixt or possibly
a day or two
later. In Jack's best selling novel On The
Road he named
himself "Sal Paradise" and he called me
"Remi Bon
Coeur". According to his card he wishes for me
to tell you that
I am Remi and then he sent me. I have no
idea why he wants
me to tell you this but knowing Jack as
I do he must have
some kind of mystical reason".
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:22:32 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfection
In-Reply-To: <33B1C568.1FA1@discovland.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<pulling
thru my beal-l archives>>
At 6:27 PM -0700
6/25/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> Mike Skau
wrote:
>
> > Tolstoy
once said that a work of art is never finished--it is only
>abandoned.
>
> Interesting
- but if an artist is experimenting with a particular form,
> and that
form seems to have been perfected (i use 'seem', because
> perfection
is not objective), is it not finished? To become the Buddha
> you must
kill the Buddha. Perfect a style / project / work of art and
> then drop
it, move on to another. Perhaps this is just a matter of
> terminology.
as a technology,
terminology must be subjective. Is this
what you are
saying? And to kill the Buddha. oh my.
I have a problem with that. He's
big. my god, is he big. I bet he sumo's. It's enough to have the world
on yer shoulders,
but him too! Why can't perfection be
objective? no
blood, no
weight... an easy going life.... if you can escape the
terminology.... :-)
and the experimenting...
> Joseph
Neudorfer
<<breathing
smoke>> Douglas <<sorry god, I know this is bad for me>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:03:13 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education
thereof)
In-Reply-To: <199706270630.XAA16374@calvin.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:30 PM -0700
6/26/97, s.a. griffin wrote:
> fucking,
fuck it all. poets are sick people that
have the need like any
yes poets have
needs. and hopefully you'll believe me
when I say this,
... partaking in
all this discussion with the list has been very good for
my soul. yes, poets do indeed have needs. if anything, to be around
poets. like minded souls. <<breathing>>
> some feel
about discussing maybe, what is beat... all the best
yes
> xxxooo
> s.a.
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:47:32 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Visionary poetry
In-Reply-To: <33B306F0.732A@discovland.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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J. Neudorfer
writ:
> And
according to certain schools of thought, there is no 'greater
> force',
there is only what is . . . which brings us back to: visionary =
> abundant
imagination, which is good.
ah, full force of
that. storm and shadow, hail and
puddles. amen. and
thank you as well
for your book recommendations.
hopefully, they will be
good, but I can't
imagine why not.,,
> J. Neudorfer
= New Villager . . . perpetually on the look for archetypes
the architect is
not the history = village idiot . . .
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:56:41 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet
In-Reply-To: <33B2C23B.45F2@erols.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:25 PM -0700
6/26/97, Chris Dumond wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm fairly
new to the list and this is my first post:
cool more
virgins!! <<laugh>. sorry, I am
in a wicked humor mood... come
on in. sit down, have drink, and lets us play a few
rounds of pool...
> The question
is, do the
> words move
you beyond prosaic jumble of letters on paper?
> To ask if a
poet can exist alone is an impossible question.
Why does a
> poet write?
why does a dog...
<<no, can't tell that joke>> ... because he can. That's
why. because a poet *can*. and yes, I have heard many stories from
friends less
fortunate than I, that yes, indeed, when left alone with a
book, words have
been known to jump off the page suddenly, do a little
dance, and indeed
walk off the page. of their own apparent
volition.
leaving the poet,
sitting all alone, <<breathing>> waiting for his feet to
start moving
again.... [burroughs, naked lunch]
> pure
releaseoutlet don't often care one way or the other.
> Just my
opinion,
> Nice to be
here,
No apologies
needed, seems to be the general rule [cobain, unplugged]
> Chris
cheers,
Douglas <<suddenly stopped
laughing, looking for cigarettes>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 00:37:53 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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Diane,
ok, perhaps I
like kerouac better than ginsberg. In
fact, am pretty sure I
do. About a week or so ago, I went out and bought
the "kicks joy darkness"
CD and I can't
seem to get past track #3, "my gang" (the oration by M.
Stipe). I see god all over this piece, and yet I
don't have the same
shackles I had
with the ginsberg you mentioned. perhaps
Kerouac doens't
have the same
respect for god? Have also been
listening to Nirvana's
"Unplugged"
which is basically a poets ode to death.
shame. One song in
particular
"Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam" stands out. What if the
poet rejects
redemption? redemption of the "one
voice"? Check out these
lined from
"My Gang":
"Why dont you like young
Rondeau?"
always I'm asked, because he boasts
and boasts, brags, brags, ya, ya, ya,
because he's crazy because he's mad
and because he never gives us a chance to talk
And then Stipe
has these organs, this circus music, this opening of the
gates into
heaven/hell. Who'se
"Hotsatots" and what's this "footsie"
action? a kick in the ass or the sacred labado dance?
I love the imagery
of the whole
piece .... "to midnight by midnight riding roses" .... [[ah,
thank god for lap
cats, purring]]
still thinking
about Cobain. tragic mothfucking
act. "where I killed
700,000 flies or
more"..... as an act of poesy, how
do you explain his
actions? In a way, it's kind of amazing. Men of that generation didn't
really have
consequences. [of course that's a lie,
but let me roll with
this...] There was no AIDS, no real Cold War, post
Cold War, environmental
movement.
Science has
already been proven false. God before
that. Is poetry next?
And this goes
back to my original jest, that all these poets you were
praising were
actually crazed, homicidal, maniacs!!
"because he's crazy
because he's mad
and because he never gives us a chance to talk"
What are the
responsibilities of a poet? I don't
know. I must confess, I
feel myself
walking into deep waters. my knowledge
of poetry is limited
(with moderns art
history, I'm better).
It does seem like
"my gang" is an ode to death, though.
And it's a lot
different than
Cobain's. gambling in his parents house,
spitting out
windows -- no
thought to the consequences. He argues
and cites
discrepancies. But then I get lost towards the end of the
piece. It's all
leading up to the
fact that he'll be pissed if god rejects him.
or maybe
he's not talking
to god??? He'll be pissed if SATAN,
satan the
DESTORYER!!! <<laugh>> is actually calm cool
and collected? <<more
laughing>> Won't that be a bust? He'll have to go to sleep and actually
do his homework
in the morning. [or god forbid, actually
get to work on
time....]
maybe you'll
understand my relations to god better if you knew that my
mom's last
husband was a minister. TV shows,
radios, seminars, the whole
bit. bastard
;-) ah, a loving man all through
and thru. not.
I still need to
review your last posting. Will do so at
work when I'm not
......
zzzzzzing.......
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:47:06 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet
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runner911 wrote:
>
> why does a dog... <<no, can't tell that
joke>> ... because he can. That's
> why. because a poet *can*. and yes, I have heard many stories from
> friends less
fortunate than I, that yes, indeed, when left alone with a
> book, words
have been known to jump off the page suddenly, do a little
> dance, and
indeed walk off the page. of their own
apparent volition.
> leaving the
poet, sitting all alone, <<breathing>> waiting for his feet to
> start moving
again.... [burroughs, naked lunch]
>
What about the
words that walk off the side of the page when writing
them?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:31:54 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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runner911 wrote:
> Science has already been proven
false. God before that. Is poetry
>next?
> And this goes back to my original jest,
that all these poets you were
> praising were actually crazed, homicidal,
maniacs!! "because he's
>crazy
>because he's mad and because he never
gives us a chance to talk"
Well, in a way I do see poets as crazed,
homicidal, maniacs, and as S.A.
Griffin so well put, "you write poetry
because you have to/need to/want
to."
As when Ginsberg says, "I saw the best minds of my generation
destroyed by madness..." What if he could of joined them, gone over
the
edge, like his mother, like Carl Solomon, but
didn't? Instead grasped
the voice of the poet inside, spilling out
truth, poetry as his madness,
way of touching the human world, naked bodies,
loves, also the esoteric
world, needing both, making both one.
And Douglas, what if, for the sake of
discussion, we treat god as
removed from god of the bible, as more of an
eternal oneness in all
things.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:56:46 -0400
Reply-To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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Beat Friends,
I realize I haven't been paying too
much attention to this thread, but
when I see
statements like:
> > Science has already been proven
false. God before that. Is poetry
> >next?
made, I have to
ask for some clarification. . . Please,
someone enlighten
me, how is it
possible to disprove science? What
evidence is there to
support that
statement? And how is it possible to
prove God false (or real
for that matter),
if you know something the rest of us don't, please share.
. .
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:15:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: shameless
In-Reply-To: <33B4071A.347@together.net>
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now that i've got yr attention (what!
something is shameless to
marie??)
anyway
does any one know
the minimum set up to record own readings of own poems?
i've been reading
them out loud, lately, and i think some are far more
powerful when
read aloud.
i'm broke and
damn near a technical idiot.
all responses
welcome to my mailbox
thanks
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:10:03 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:
Comments: To:
"Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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On Thu, 26 Jun
1997 11:43:17 -0700 you wrote:
>"the map
is not the territory"
>(attribution
unknown)
In "Science
and Sanity, An Introduction to Non-Aristotelian Systems and
General
Semantics," page 61 (4th edition 1958, 6th printing), Alfred
Korzybski writes,
"There is no such thing as an object in absolute
isolation...if
words are not the things, or maps are not the actual
territory..."
Korzybski continues, (paraphrasing), a horse probably has
no concept as to
crossing the border. The horse just walks. And neither
would a human
rider without some sign or post to indicate "crossing."
The human just
rides.
Korzybski wrote
"the map is not the territory," and "the word is not the
thing."
"You men
gonna eat cha dinner, eat cha pork and beans, I've ate more
chicken than any
man ever seen, ...yeah, ...yeah, I'm a back door man...
I'm a back door
man..."
--The Doors, Back
Door Man
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:37:36 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: shameless
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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On Fri, 27 Jun
1997 11:15:24 -0400 you wrote:
> does any one
know the minimum set up to record own readings of own poems?
> i've been
reading them out loud, lately, and i think some are far more
> powerful
when read aloud.
A sound card,
microphone, and speakers for your PC remains one of
probably many
ways to record your poetry. And with the sound card, you
could even post
the recording (.wav file) here on Beat-L. Sound files
get real large
real quick, but it works. Sound Blaster by Creative sells
packages with all
ingredients including the software "Monotone" which
reads back text
for proofing, etc. I have seen other vendors sell sound
cards for $39.00,
microphones for $10.00, and speakers for $19.00 or so.
Shop around. IBM
sells "Voice Assist" now which has a special filtering
microphone.
Another vendor sells a "Voice" WordProcessor now. And to add
real
commericalization here, Phillips (and other vendors) sell both
recordable and
even rerecordable CD drives for your PC. These drives now
sell for less
than $500.00. You could sell CDs of your poetry! All for
easily around a
thousand bucks or so, including the cost of the PC!
> i'm broke
and damn near a technical idiot.
Aren't we all!
PCs sell these days like gas ignites! These small PC
retailers these
days make deals almost self-serve! If this sorta thing
interests you, go
in, tell 'em what you want to do, and work out a deal.
They'll piece you
together a PC that'll do it.
I just wanted to
present one possibility, suggestion...
Thanks-
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:52:00 -0600
Reply-To: Sonya Kolowrat
<skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sonya Kolowrat
<skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>
Organization:
MainStream Consulting Group, Inc
Subject: Scorpios?
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Being a scorpio
on the beat list, I thought this was weird. I NEVER
check my
horoscope, and the one day I do, this is what pops up!
-----------------------------------
SCORPIO (Oct
23-Nov 21)
Week of June 26,
1997
If I ever resume my
education at an
institution of
higher
learning, it'll
probably
be at the Jack
Kerouac
School of
Disembodied
Poetics in
Boulder. The
lineage of its
teachers
is the
"outrider"
tradition:
"outrageous,
iconoclastic,
exploratory,"
in the
words of poet
Anne
Waldman,
"doing the work
to please the
deities,
to keep the
energies
dancing, not just
to
have a safe and
tenured
career." In
honor of
your own entry
into the
outrider phase of
your
yearly cycle,
dear
Scorpio, I offer
you the
following
visualization:
Imagine kissing a
holy
freedom fighter.
It
could be the
Dalai Lama
or Burma's Nobel
Peace
Prize winner Aung
San
Suu Kyi or anyone
who
inflames your
desire to
experiment and
dare and
struggle to bring
more
beauty and truth
and
justice into the
world.
-Bye! Sonya.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:56:32 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet
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Diane poses:
><<What
about the words that walk off the side of the page when writing
them?>>
Well, I've stolen
several stories here. Friend told me how
under the
influence of LSD
he took a final at UCLA and has this wonderful
experience. perhaps he meant it metaphorically, but I
assume not. Boy
walks in, sits
down - he's flying. Teacher hands out
test, boy wigs out
- stares at the
page. <hm> and then the words leave him tabla rasa, he
waits - the words
reappear with the answers accompanying them.
<ah>
the story is
suspect for the miraculous intervention there at the end.
Says he got an
"A" or something like that.
<<perhaps>> [[suspect
process]]
Then in Naked
Lunch, correct me if I'm wrong, the opening bit tells alot
about the life of
a junkie. He goes on about how easy and
entertaining
it is to get
loaded and stare at your shoes for a good eight hours or
so. perhaps this is also metaphorical in
nature. A nice suede,
perhaps.
and no, ah,
re-reading your message, not *while* writing - before and
after; that's
when they do their little dance. No one
ever said
anything about
the actual act of creation, what happen to words at that
time. Were they congealed from tiny proteins, their
pattern skidded
sideways (as
vision does horizontally).
>b
-----> x <------- p
b
........xxxxxxoetry--->>>>xxxxxxxx........ p
<<ah, woke
up to the sound of a screaming modem, demanding under the
strains of a
half-power situation. no alarms clocks
reading past 12:00
... the fridge,
poorly stocked already, seems to moan, filled with a
luke warm
yellow. went back to sleep regardless of
being late, my pains
still subsiding,
ah, a long beautiful day ahead...>>
>> DC
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:13:28 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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Diane writ:
><<
Well, in a way I do see poets as crazed, homicidal, maniacs, and as S.A.
> Griffin so well put [[agreed]], "you
write poetry because you have to/need
>to/want
to." As when Ginsberg says, "I
saw the best minds of my generation
> destroyed by
madness..." What if he could of
joined them, gone over the
> edge, like
his mother, like Carl Solomon, but didn't?
Instead grasped
> the voice of
the poet inside, spilling out truth, poetry as his madness,
> way of
touching the human world, naked bodies, loves, also the esoteric
world, needing both, making both one.>>
.... madness and
the esoteric world.... <hm> perhaps like M. Stipe who
I appreciate very
much, Ginsberg did indeed *see* the mechanics, the
processes of
these "best minds". this is
what you were saying earlier.
Yes. but chose to remain living, to bear thru the
pain and suffering.
to remain on the
outside and deal with that inner/personal madness
through the
conduct/conduits of other people.
That life itself
was an option to choose [outside the self, in others].
working towards
life. pulling the esoteric in that
general direction
[and thru the
poors of others]. <<hm, just
babbling now..>> hm, I
guess the trick
is being able to not *need* to write poetry.
to *not*
believe in
"because" and "shoulds" all the time. not all the time.
<<still
thinking about Cobain, the DESTROYER of my generation>> not all
the time and not
only in the dark, cause then ya become a Vampiro,
>drinker of
blood!!! <<hm>>
>
><< And
Douglas, what if, for the sake of discussion, we treat god as
> removed from
god of the bible, as more of an eternal oneness in all
things.>>
Well, ok, but
there we're talking about a god oughta context.
Don't
know how to deal
with that. A whole new ballgame. <<objective vs
subjective
god>> and perhaps perhaps perhaps this is more personal and
not so easily
conveyed via email. Oftentimes I do
invoke god, quite
self-consciously. Meaning exactly as you say: "more of an
eternal
oneness in all
things". Which brings me train of
thought back to
Ginsberg and his
wish to be recognized. to be within
reach and on the
right path. or walking, breathing, at least. So where is god located
then, Diane? If removed from the bible, where shall we
find evidence of
>him??
[her, him, it....
you know what I mean....god]
> DC
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:19:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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Bruce asks his
Beat Friends:
><<
[snip] I have to ask for some clarification. . . Please, someone
>enlighten
>me, how is it
possible to disprove science? What
evidence is there to
>support that
statement? And how is it possible to
prove God false (or real
for that matter),
if you know something the rest of us don't, please
share.>>
perhaps I'm
relying on academic standards that have not yet been proven
in the
workplace. most assuredly. neitchze proved god wrong [haven't
read the
book]. the cold war and post-industrial
culture proved science
not able to cure
ills of manking [perhaps quite the opposite].
Who was
the sci-fi author
who wrote about god being found floating in the Artic
Ocean??
"enlighten
you" ... hm, yes. that's what I'm
talking about. perhaps
this french
revolutionary idea isn't so ideal after all? Who has the
Power?? The people??
I think this is very much in question, these
days.
>but, I'm
gonna shut up now. Hope that helps!
>
>> Bruce
>>
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>>
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:27:20 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:
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Michael, the
attribution saver:
>>"the
map is not the territory"
>> [[Alfred
Korzybski]]
>
><<"You
men gonna eat cha dinner, eat cha pork and beans, I've ate more
>chicken than
any man ever seen, ...yeah, ...yeah, I'm a back door man...
>I'm a back
door man..."
--The Doors, Back
Door Man>>
Ah, thank your
for reminding me. thank you very much
indeed. People
always ask the
general question "how are you?" and never stick around
for the
answer. Always pisses me off. So instead of an honest reply
(or at least the
"fine" or "good" they are expecting), I insistently
reply
"hungry." I'm always hungry
for something man.
<<gotta
find a good Janis Joplin quote to fill in here...>>
>cheers,
Douglas <<a little piece of my heart....SUMMERTIME>> ??
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:29:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: shameless
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Marie posits:
<<does any
one know the minimum set up to record own readings of own
>poems?>>
use yer answering
machine (if ya have one??) I think your
*maximum*
would be about 30
seconds and then a very loud beep.
>> thanks
>> mc
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:40:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: poets in a ring <<square, actually>>
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<<ok, I'll
be quiet soon>>
reading
yesterdays LA Times, Sports section, headline:
"Can Tyson
Rewrite
Script(ure)?"
snippet by Jim
Murray: "So, Holyfield is the last hope of turning a
heavyweight
championship fight into a morality play, a truimph of good
over evil, value
over vice."
Anyone here
subscribing to this idea of redemption?
poets not lovers or
a fighter? and If god did exist, would he live in a
"holy field"?? Is
this where you
want to find evidence of god, Diane?? In
the newspaper
(sports section)
??
I'm warning you,
I could talk about basketball till the
cows came
home!!
he goes, he gone,
goodbye <<Douglas>>
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:09:21 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Betty Shabazz.
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Betty Shabazz, American
civil rights worker, died
of burns in a New York
hospital aged 61.
She was born in Detroit
on May 28, 1936.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:24:48 -0700
Reply-To: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "s.a. griffin"
<perrotta@CALVIN.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education
thereof)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 01:03 AM
6/27/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:30 PM
-0700 6/26/97, s.a. griffin wrote:
>
>> fucking,
fuck it all. poets are sick people that
have the need like any
>
>yes poets
have needs. and hopefully you'll believe
me when I say this,
>... partaking
in all this discussion with the list has been very good for
>my soul.
yes, absolutely,
I agree w/yourself and everyone having the right and need
to discuss poetry
to the ends of the world. I agree that it
can be good for
any soul. after awhile I just had to step in and defend
the poor poem as I
felt it's own
dear soul down for the count so to speak and needing a break :
needed that cut
under the eye tended, some water, a towel, a chance for the
crowd to get some
popcorn and beer...
everyone was
dancing with and on it and not giving the poor baby a break. I
was beginning to
take it personal as if I were the thing in the ring being
poked and pushed.
yes, poets do
indeed have needs. if anything, to be
around
>poets. like
minded souls.
most all my
friends, people I spend time with, are involved in the poetry
thing; poor
unemployed to Phd. but all noble in their own way. it's not
always good to be
around them, they can make one truly insane as is often
the case. but they are the only ones for me, the only
ones that I feel
comfortable with
to share the breath. there is often nothing, but then that
is the adventure,
just when you think it's over... out comes a rabbit, or
someone forms a
diamond from air, problem is, the crowd ordered a
cheesburger and a
coke and they think the diamonds are worthless, and they
cook the poor
magic rabbit. never stops the poem or
the poet, they just
keep making, like
ants, like bees, like time...
>> some
feel about discussing maybe, what is beat... all the best
>
>yes
yes
yes
yes....
>
<<breathing>>
yes!
>cheers,
Douglas
>> xxxooo
>> s.a.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:50:53 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: ketchup & writing
Content-Type:
text
/"The days
glide by,strung on a syringe with a long thread of blood"
Arthur: Compare
Prufrock's desire "To spit out all the butt ends of
my days and
ways" (for those who might not see the image clearly, he
would have been
smoking unfiltered cigarettes; the tobacco would
sometimes crawl
out the end onto your lip; when it did, you would
spit it out)
/Perhaps the
ultimate similarity between their situations is that
/death- spiritual
and physical- awaits them, the common result of going
/over either
edge.
Arthur: of
course, physical death awaits all of us, whether we go
over any edges at
all; more to the point, Prufrock is already spiritually
dead: he even
compares himself to Lazarus (both Lazaruses of the New
Testament are
probably relevany here), come back from the dead, and the
poem concludes
with Prufrock accepting his death-in-life: "Till human
voices wake us
and we drown."
Someone asked
about the painting of Corso in the Beat Generation exhibit
at the Whitney:
that would most likely have been Robert La Vigne's
_Portrait of
Gregory Corso_ (1956).
To Michael Stutz:
Unfortunately, I
was unable to attend the summer '94 Naropa fest for
Ginsberg (were
you there?). No, the reading to which I was referring
was one which Corso
gave with Baraka (LeRoi Jones) at Naropa on 4 August
1985. The poem
Corso read was one which he called "Written at a Rock Star's
Gravesite, in
Spontaneity"; the phrase "in Spontaneity" is then complicated
by the poem's
introductory passage:
"Don't
change a word
First thought
best thought
advised dearest
of Jacks
If the mind is
shapely
the poem will
come out shapely
advised dearest
of Ginsy
On second thought
I thought
not to jump off
the Empire State"
(the line endings
are approximations based on Corso's reading; the rock
star of the
title, by the way, was Jim Morrison of the Doors: Corso goes
on to note that
his tombstone reads: JIM MOORRISON POET)
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/27/97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:06:31 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: .driving past the hospital
The incision must
be made at the precise point of intersection
where heart meets
inner ear.
I turned right on
her street as the car radio began to play.
there were three
Arab gangsters in front of the seveneleven.
"Boys don't
FEEL the same". Where voiced and
unvoiced anguish separate.
Yellowed sutures
of nylon hand-polished in China. I still
have her scars.
Little parallel
lines on my shoulderblade.
They say it went
right through, just like Jesse James.
i don't believe
Them.
I told them
"Stop looking at my feet". Like Dillinger.
Or was it...
So many TURNS
left.
you mean burns,
right?
electromagnetic
resonance spectrometers vascillate frantically---
it's so dark in
here.
Sulphurous
perfumes in the Doctor's promises.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:21:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: can i kick it?
today in my very
very beat life i came across a really really cool website i
would like to
share with you all 'cause i think you're just all so special.
I hope you will
think it's neat too but there are some of you who will not
like it i know
and i apologize in advance for wasting your precious internet
time so forgive
me.
For your info
it's a page of links to very very cool stuff that i'm
interested in and
hey it can't hurt for you to take a look you might find
something you
like or that will merely change your life.
It has WSB links
too.
here it is:
http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~maldoror/links.html
it's
just......i'm.....wordless.
--------maya
ps:
today i had to
'splain to my ESL students what "kickin' it" means.
I also had to
explain what "honey bunny" means.
And what
"mofo" stands for.
What a great
intro for them to American culture, huh?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:04:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
Notice:
It has recently come to my attention that
certain elements in the mist
have been
disobeying the Policies of our establishment and institutional Alma
Mater. Reports of idolatry, incohesion, and
dissimular thought-patterns have
been made to
those with the authority to do something about it, i.e. mete out
punishment. We strongly urge the perpetrators to come
forward and turn
themselves over
so they can tan the other side for all to see, in the form of
posters and other
confessions of artistry. Names will not
be changed to
protect the
guilty. We all know, comrades and
gentlewomen, that this type
of misbehavior
will not be tolerated by God and all the angels at Heaven
Country
Club. We all pay taxes, in the end. Except if you live in Virginia.
Or Texas.
But any grandmother who wants to smoke pot should be rounded up
and shot. This mess was brought to you by yours truly,
madly and deeply,
-----maya
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:54:09 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dear Chickenheads:
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
>
> Ah, thank
your for reminding me. thank you very
much indeed. People
> always ask
the general question "how are you?" and never stick around
> for the
answer. Always pisses me off. So instead of an honest reply
> (or at least
the "fine" or "good" they are expecting), I insistently
> reply
"hungry." I'm always hungry
for something man.
>
i've found an
amusing answer to "how are you" is -- "just living minute
to minute". you can tell a lot about the questioner by
the reaction to
this answer. some you want to get to know better. some you never want
to see again.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:16:30 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Scorpios?
lol Sonya....
funny how the universe gives little hits of truth when you least
expect it,
eh? Sort of like 'wake up & smell
the coffee, girl!' hehe Guess
Jung was
right.... synchronicity... It's all
One <grins>
Ciao,
Sherri
love_singing@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:37:12 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
Douglas,
Why do you
relegate evidence of god to a book, and only one, at that? Why
must god be
something defined by man? That seems
antithetical to the idea of
god. God Is.
The evidence is in everything, every particle, wave, atom,
blade of
grass. What we don't know is what god
is. Perhaps the whole notion
of it is that
s/he/it cannot be defined by humankind, because we, as a part of
god, cannot fully
experience the whole and, therefore, can only speculate
based on that
portion of god which we can.
This is of course
necessarily truncated, and barely scratches
the surface,
but hopefully you
can read between the lines.
Btw, has anyone
suggested a Beat chat room... would be alot easier to discuss
some of this
stuff that way and a hell of alot more fun.
Ciao, Sherri
love_singing@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:30:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> Well, ok,
but there we're talking about a god oughta context. Don't
> know how to
deal with that. A whole new
ballgame. <<objective vs
> subjective
god>> and perhaps perhaps perhaps this is more personal and
> not so
easily conveyed via email. Oftentimes I
do invoke god, quite
>
self-consciously. Meaning exactly as you
say: "more of an eternal
> oneness in
all things". Which brings me train
of thought back to
> Ginsberg and
his wish to be recognized. to be within
reach and on the
> right
path. or walking, breathing, at
least. So where is god located
> then,
Diane? If removed from the bible, where
shall we find evidence
>of
> >him??
> [her, him,
it.... you know what I mean....god]
Just want to get
you out of the "because" and shoulds," too much baggage
associated with
the god of the bible, wanted to get away from Blake's
visionary system
as read by Ginsberg, and also away from any redemptive
notion attached
to gods or poets or poetry. From this
new perspective
you find evidence
of god in walking and breathing, in grass, trees,
rocks, in the
godlike act of writing a poem, a oneness in you, in
everything.
Or in timeless
moments as in this passage from Kerouac,
"It was
perfect, the golden solitude, the golden emptiness,
Something-Or-Other,
something surely humble. There was a
rapturous ring
of silence
abiding perfectly. There was no question
of being alive, of
likes and
dislikes, or near or far, no question of giving or gratitude,
no question of
mercy or judgment, or of suffering or its opposite or
anything."
Does this relate
back "to be within reach and on the right path, walking,
breathing, or are
we back to killing the buddha...?"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:43:15 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: poets in a ring <<square, actually>>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> reading
yesterdays LA Times, Sports section, headline:
"Can Tyson
> Rewrite
Script(ure)?"
>
> snippet by
Jim Murray: "So, Holyfield is the last hope of turning a
> heavyweight
championship fight into a morality play, a truimph of good
> over evil,
value over vice."
>
> Anyone here
subscribing to this idea of redemption?
poets not lovers
>or
> a
fighter? and If god did exist, would he
live in a "holy field"?? Is
> this where
you want to find evidence of god, Diane??
In the newspaper
> (sports
section) ??
"The world
is holy! The soul is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is
holy! The tongue
and cock and hand and asshole holy!
Everything is
holy! everbody's holy! everywhere is holy!
everyday is in
eternity! Everyman's an angel!
The bum as holy
as the seraphin! the madman is holy as you my soul are
holy!
The typewriter is
holy the poem is holy the voice is holy the hearers are
holy the esctasy
is holy!"
from Ginsberg,
Footnote to Howl,
I'm too lazy to
type the whole thing but I think you get the idea...
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:02:18 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Visionary poetry
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
> I write /
speak out of my own experience and identity as Poet.
> We all are
visionaries, most do not tap into their powers = potential.
> If the poet
has a feel for mythology, and views himself as part of that
> mythology,
he is admitting to and joining a tradition. That tradition
>is
> past down
through the thousands of years by any number of art forms -
> the written
page, storytelling, dance, painting, the song, etc. - and
> then through
whatever else = instinct = intuition = the One =
>
Consciousness = imagination.
>
> I often
wonder, maybe it is the visionaries who are not whole. They
>need
> to tap into
the 'greater force' to be whole, whereas the vast masses
> lead
satisfactory lives with no need for the esoteric. (but history has
> shown that
the vast masses do not lead satisfactory lives . . . )
>
> And
according to certain schools of thought, there is no 'greater
> force',
there is only what is . . . which brings us back to: visionary =
> abundant
imagination, which is good.
>
> J. Neudorfer
= New Villager . . . perpetually on the look for archetypes
I think that
visionary=abundant imagination is a great way to describe
it. I also find some truth in the idea of the
visionary not being whole
without the
esoteric. Or is it simply that the
visionary was born
with a heightened
consciousness? A mind that can make the
leap:
instinct=intuition=the
One Consciousness=imagination? Many poets lead
very satisfactory
lives, as you say, without the esoteric.
Many poets
write without
looking for or understanding the nature of the archetypical
mind or images.
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:23:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
mike@infinet.com
Mike:
I'll send you
those issues of TIP. I had an interview in Jul. 30, 1981 issue,
issue on Stevie
Wonder and the Doors. Some great pictures of Jim Morrison.
Nov. 11, 1982 issue, also great original
pictures of Bukowski and Ben
Gazzara with
Tanya Lopert.
And then a photo
article, "Plymells
Amerika". I wrote you a letter
today
and with some
thoughts on your click theory that was on the list last night.
Later,
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 01:54:29 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet (and education
thereof)
s.a.
seems to me that
the role of the poet is to be the heart and soul of
humankind... without the poet (and the philosopher)
humankind would be too
caught up in
simple survival to remember to think, feel, wonder... not to say
that there isn't
some of the poet/philosopher in all of us, but for most the
portion is to
small and weak to fight the overwhelming survival and, perhaps
moreso, greed
that seem to be inherent in most people.
For all that, I'm
not truly cynical... someday poesy will
be the stronger
force
<s>...
Ciao, Sherri
love_singing@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:38:50 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
[snip] Maya
writes:
Notice:
It has recently come to my attention that
certain elements in the mist
have been
disobeying the Policies of our establishment and institutional Alma
Mater. Reports of idolatry, incohesion, and
dissimular thought-patterns have
been made to
those with the authority to do something about it, i.e. mete out
punishment. We strongly urge the perpetrators to come
forward and turn
themselves over
so they can tan the other side for all to see, in the form of
posters and other
confessions of artistry. Names will not
be changed to
protect the
guilty. We all know, comrades and
gentlewomen, that this type
of misbehavior
will not be tolerated by God and all the angels at Heaven
Country Club. We all pay taxes, in the end. Except if you live in Virginia.
Or Texas.
But any grandmother who wants to smoke pot should be rounded up
and shot. This mess was brought to you by yours truly,
madly and deeply,
-----maya
A woman after my
own heart... How prosaic the Beats have
Beat police. A
rousing cry of
"CENSORSHIP" may be in
order. I'm sure Jack, Neal & Allen
are
tossing &
turning in their graves; and it could lead to the demise of our
beloved
WSB!!!! Come on folks, if these guys
hadn't dared to follow their own
hearts and minds,
instead of the mind-numbing, foolish, cattle mentality of
American society,
we would have nothing to discuss.
Forgive me if I
step on toes, I'm really a nice person.
:)
But I refuse to
have my mind dictated to by anyone.
Bon soir mes
amies,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:54:46 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet
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Chris Dumond
wrote:
>
> Poetry is
art, it is not the hardest task in the world to sit down and
> rhyme a few
words together or wipe your ass on a notebook and call it a
> poem. The true test is "is it art?" When
a man paints a portrait is he
> not a painter? Yes, but an artist... maybe? The question is, do the
> words move
you beyond prosaic jumble of letters on paper?
Welcome Chris.
And, you bring with you the opportunity to move into a
discussion a work of art. Did the beats re-define the work of art?
There are readers/critics who would say
Ginsberg wiped his ass on the
page and it was not a work of art. Others might see him and other beats
pushing the limits of art, life,
humnanness. Those same critics would
scoff at Kerouac's first-thought,
best-thought, turn away from a work of
art for lack of punctuation, or for invoking a
different form of
breathing, living. Even many who read Joyce's Finnigans Wake saw
a
prosaic jumble of letters on the page and
didn't take the time to
understand the genius. Who puts the poem or
prose to the true test--
is it art?
The reader, the critic, the writer?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:13:37 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In-Reply-To: <970627180157_159519054@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Notice:
>
> It has recently come to my attention that
certain elements in the mist
>have been
disobeying the Policies of our establishment and institutional Alma
>Mater. Reports of idolatry, incohesion, and
dissimular thought-patterns have
>been made to
those with the authority to do something about it, i.e. mete out
>punishment. We strongly urge the perpetrators to come
forward and turn
>themselves
over so they can tan the other side for all to see, in the form of
>posters and
other confessions of artistry. Names
will not be changed to
>protect the
guilty. We all know, comrades and
gentlewomen, that this type
>of
misbehavior will not be tolerated by God and all the angels at Heaven
>Country
Club. We all pay taxes, in the end. Except if you live in Virginia.
> Or
Texas. But any grandmother who wants to
smoke pot should be rounded up
>and
shot. This mess was brought to you by
yours truly,
>
>madly and
deeply,
>-----maya
YIPES!
Attention All Grandfathers! Tell Granny to stash the stash and load your
muskets.
jo
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
372,191
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:48:21 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: God
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With respects to
God:
-odd excerpts from a poem of mine titled
"Mountain Tasting"
***
Jehovah is crazy
Jehovah is far out and hazy
***
there are no limits
but must have limits
[ = there is nothing holding us back
from knowing all, but there is no
physical
possibility of reaching that 'all-knowledge', you would soon
swim in insanity
. . . hense Jehovah is crazy . . . that is why even
Moses, the figure
who was in Yahweh's presence, was not actually face to
face. When Moses
asked Yahweh to reveal himself (one of the many times
on the mountains,
after the burning bush), Yahweh only permitted Moses
to observe his
back and shoulders - which on one level is a paradox in
itself.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:48:09 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
Douglas... you're
a kick. Are you studying/teaching modern
art history? Even
if you don't know
alot about poetry, the question of what art or an artist is
remains the same,
regardless of his/her chosen medium of expression, don't you
think?
Btw, as far as I
know there is no job description for a poet <grins>, not sure
that they have
any responsibility other than to be honest about what they're
doing, like any
other human being in any act of any kind... course who the
hell knows how
many people are honest at all?
Anyway, enjoy
your postings. :) Keep them coming.
Ciao,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:02:23 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
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<<breathing
smoke>> Douglas wrote:
> And to kill
the Buddha. oh my. I have a problem with that. He's
> big. my god, is he big. I bet he sumo's. It's enough to have the world
> on yer
shoulders, but him too!
Isn't that part
of the problem, that universal undefined problem, that
we see the buddha
as being big. Siddhartha was a man like you, me. To
have the world on
your shoulders is in part to be prophet, or
boddhisatva:
from a poem of mine: "we are all
boddhisatvas of the rebel lion
*rebel lion* = Micheal McClure
term and title of poetry publication
Speaking of
Micheal McClure, just picked up his "Jaguar Skies" poetry
publication.
McClure has a way with words. Another concept of his that I
have fooled
around with is "biological mysticism" - the body is holy,
the stomach,
skin, cells, everything.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:57:40 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: God
Why the hell does
everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
magical powers...
aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
little beyond our
own puny little selves?
Ciao,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:18:14 +0000
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
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Subject: HUH?
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Douglas wrote:
> the
architect is not the history = village idiot
. . . cheers . . .
I have tried, but
. . . huh?
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:29:56 +0000
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
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Subject: The Poet
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Diane Carter
wrote:
> Many poets
lead very satisfactory lives, as you say, without the esoteric.
> Many poets
write without looking for or understanding the nature of the
> archetypical
mind or images.
Very true. My
twin brother is dedicated to the muse as i am, and with
constant
interaction we are forced to mold our identities with respects
to each other. It
is almost as if he is 'simplicity' and i am
'complexity'.
Both of us are basically writing on the same subject, but
where he uses a
word, i use two, etc.
A poet friend of
ours, Jason Selman, trumpet player, has a line:
reality is simplicity
and complexity in a kiss of life
and death
[line structure may not be accurate]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:30:34 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In-Reply-To:
<970627180157_159519054@emout08.mail.aol.com>
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At 3:04 PM -0700
6/27/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> and
shot. This mess was brought to you by
yours truly,
oh yeah, meet my
gang!! http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
> madly and
deeply,
> -----maya
Douglas
<<nice linx>>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:41:42 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: God (cross-fertilizations)
In-Reply-To: <33B45144.59B@discovland.net>
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At 4:48 PM -0700
6/27/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> With
respects to God:
>
> -odd excerpts from a poem of mine
titled "Mountain Tasting"
>
> ***
> Jehovah is crazy
> Jehovah is far out and hazy
> ***
> there are no limits
> but must have limits
>
and do we still
have to kill Jehovah? can the one kill
the masses? and to
kill without
knowing of the experience?
and what if we
did know of the one. vice versa. then what?
Is the idea
to sustain this
as long as possible or instead, to let our shoulders and
feet clearly
meet??
cheers, Douglas
<<one lump only please>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just keep
it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:51:48 +0000
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
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Subject: The Poet
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Diane Carter
wrote:
> Who puts the
poem or prose to the true test--is it art?
The reader, the
> critic, the
writer?
Yeah . . . try
defining art, feel the headache grow.
Here is a Marxist
twist to the role of the Poet:
the poets have only
interpreted the world,
the point however
is to bang it
- that is, performing and
living the life of a "big bang visionary"
Taken from the
inscription on Marx's tombstone: "The philosophers have
only interpreted
the world, the point however, is to change it".
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:57:04 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: HUH?
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At 5:18 PM -0700
6/27/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> Douglas
wrote:
>
> > the
architect is not the history = village idiot
. . . cheers . . .
>
> I have
tried, but . . . huh?
Ok, my
interpretation: the man who builds the
town doesn't know how it got
there. he's the stupidist one in the bunch. he's the village idiot. you
might call him an
"arch e' type" (foe of words).
and I reversed your
signature line to
match. <<whew>>
> Joseph
Neudorfer
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:54:10 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
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At 5:02 PM -0700
6/27/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> Isn't that part
of the problem, that universal undefined problem, that
> we see the
buddha as being big. Siddhartha was a man like you, me. To
> have the
world on your shoulders is in part to be prophet, or
> boddhisatva:
this is a
<<heavy>> thought.
really. <<hm>> you
know, very often I feel
invisible. and then the weight of personality seems to
dawn on me.
Siddhartha is big
as in my dreams, I can not get a clear grasp on him. he
must be big. or very small, able to escape the traps I
have set for him.
WE SHALL FIND HIS
SIZE. Thomas Morrow? Is that the author I was trying to
remember? Big huge god tied to a raft, floating in the
Antartic...
> Another
concept of his that I
> have fooled
around with is "biological mysticism" - the body is holy,
> the stomach,
skin, cells, everything.
does this
"biological mysticism" get you any discounts at fast food
restaurants? or anything like that? I guess it's your focus. some people
are really into
their bodies. personally, I can't tell
you the difference
between a kidney
and a liver. yet, I still drink water,
purify my blood,
and pass
fluids. am I still Holy?
> Joseph
Neudorfer
<<refusing
to believe, refusing to accept the logic>> ------ Douglas
Who originally
said (or what is attributed with the phrase) :: DEFEAT THE
DOMINANT
PARADIGM (or something
"paradigm") -- I feel like strangling
them... yhea, and
that guy named Murphy and his laws.,,,,, and charles
shultz, yeah,
that's who......
<<Charlie
Brown, he's a clown, Charlie Brown, he's a clown, that's who!>>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:08:13 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
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At 9:48 PM -0700
6/27/97, Sherri wrote:
> Douglas...
you're a kick.
you're no
shrinking violet, Sherri. 8-)
> Are you
studying/teaching modern art history?
Nope. but you could say that I word process for a
living...
> Even
> if you don't
know alot about poetry, the question of what art or an artist is
> remains the
same, regardless of his/her chosen medium of expression,
>don't you
> think?
I've been
thinking about that. people and their specialties. and to get
two or more
people together, all exhibiting "specialty". Must have been
what Andy Warhol
meant when he invented the term "superstar" during his
Factory days.
> Btw, as far
as I know there is no job description for a poet <grins>, not
>sure
> that they
have any responsibility other than to be honest about what they're
> doing, like
any other human being in any act of any kind... course who the
> hell knows
how many people are honest at all?
not me. Do you know the story about the lion and the
queen? guy has to
pick between two doors? a guard stands before each. Only one question is
asked. But here's the trick: one guard always tells the truth and the
other one always
lies. and if he picks wrong ::
<<kaching>> :: he's lion
bait (to quote
Joseph N.). I always forget the right
question, so don't
ask me for the
answer. I can tell you the riddle of the
sphinx, though!!
> Anyway,
enjoy your postings. :) Keep them coming.
yep. cross-fertilizations are always good.
> Ciao,
> Sherri
Cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:09:41 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: God
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At 9:57 PM -0700
6/27/97, Sherri wrote:
> Why the hell
does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
> magical
powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
> little
beyond our own puny little selves?
<<uh, my
head hurts>> what is
imagination? ;-)
> Ciao,
> Sherri
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:19:34 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
In-Reply-To: <33B4AF9D.E3A@together.net>
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At 11:30 PM -0700
6/27/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> Just want to
get you out of the "because" and shoulds," too much baggage
> associated
with the god of the bible, wanted to get away from Blake's
> visionary
system as read by Ginsberg, and also away from any redemptive
> notion
attached to gods or poets or poetry.
From this new perspective
> you find
evidence of god in walking and breathing, in grass, trees,
> rocks, in
the godlike act of writing a poem, a oneness in you, in
> everything.
not even a Ward
Cleaver god? someone who pays your
allowance, puts a roof
over your head,
and teaches you how to be strong?? oh,
yeah, that's your
father. the father figure. <<mmmmm, steaming a little bit --
thinking
about my
ex-father, the minister>>.
Ok. I think once you settle down
a
little, put down
some weeds, and plant a few rose bushes then yes, then one
can appreciate
this "new perspective." .....
makes me think that this is
the only way to
see, to live. I feel what you are
saying, but I just can't
accept it right
now. sorry. <<feel like a juvenile delinquent, I'm
*cool*
still....>> ... puff, puff
> Or in
timeless moments as in this passage from Kerouac,
>
> "It was
perfect, the golden solitude, the golden emptiness,
>
Something-Or-Other, something surely humble.
There was a rapturous ring
> of silence
abiding perfectly. There was no question
of being alive, of
> likes and
dislikes, or near or far, no question of giving or gratitude,
> no question
of mercy or judgment, or of suffering or its opposite or
>
anything."
>
> Does this
relate back "to be within reach and on the right path, walking,
> breathing,
or are we back to killing the buddha...?"
yes <<ah, Kerouac>>
So what is
beauty? is this "beauty" as
well? <<a way of living??>>
Andre Breton:
"beauty must be repulsive"
> DC
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:21:31 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: poets in a ring <<square, actually>>
In-Reply-To: <33B4B283.5C72@together.net>
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At 11:43 PM -0700
6/27/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> from
Ginsberg, Footnote to Howl,
> I'm too lazy
to type the whole thing but I think you get the idea...
yes
<<ah,
Ginsberg>>
> DC
Douglas
<<beaming>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:18:49 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: God (cross-fertilizations)
Douglas,
At the risk of
looking totally ignorant, what the hell do you mean "let our
shoulders meet
our feet"?
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
runner911
Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 10:41 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: God (cross-fertilizations)
At 4:48 PM -0700
6/27/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> With
respects to God:
>
> -odd excerpts from a poem of mine
titled "Mountain Tasting"
>
> ***
> Jehovah is crazy
> Jehovah is far out and hazy
> ***
> there are no limits
> but must have limits
>
and do we still
have to kill Jehovah? can the one kill
the masses? and to
kill without
knowing of the experience?
and what if we
did know of the one. vice versa. then what?
Is the idea
to sustain this
as long as possible or instead, to let our shoulders and
feet clearly
meet??
cheers, Douglas
<<one lump only please>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:41:04 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: The Poet
<<theoretically>>
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At 5:51 PM -0700
6/27/97, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> Yeah . . .
try defining art, feel the headache grow.
> Taken from
the inscription on Marx's tombstone: "The philosophers have
> only
interpreted the world, the point however, is to change it".
yeah, as if
artists dont live actual lives. talk the
talk and walk the
walk. As a lapsed art history major, let me tell
you that the definition
of art from an
academic point of view does not include "walking or
breathing" or even what kind of tattoos dennis rodman
has... oops, wrong
about that last
one.... and to change the world, we all know about
fashions... cater
to the few rich folx with one of a kinds and then sell
the knockoffs and
the scent to the farmers of Michigan for your real cents.
<<kaching!!>>
> Joseph
Neudorfer
Douglas
<<getting tired of writing -- goodnight!!>>
but PS: I think Marx's tombstone might have been
misinterpreted/ um,
translated. Shouldn't it read "... is to chase
it" ... turn it into
butter and slide
it over your penis..... zzzzzzzzzz
puts new meaning
on the term "Rosetta Stone" (cousin of Sharon)
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:44:33 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: God (cross-fertilizations)
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At 11:18 PM -0700
6/27/97, Sherri wrote:
> Douglas,
>
> At the risk
of looking totally ignorant, what the hell do you mean "let our
> shoulders
meet our feet"?
hell, I don't
know. Ask Joseph, he's the one who
brought up being able to
see shoulders and
whatnot - how this is contradictory.
Personally, I say
let's sleep on it
and we'll discuss it in the morning...
;-)
<<the
impossible dream - 125 miles and counting....>>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:20:42 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: role of poet
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i dunno.
i just write down
what is in my head demanding to be written.
or go insane
or, ...... go insane and THEN write down what
is in my head demanding to
be heard.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:01:30 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> i dunno.
> i just write
down what is in my head demanding to be written.
> or go insane
> or, ...... go insane and THEN write down what
is in my head demanding to
> be heard.
> mc
i think a lot of
this speculation is not directly related to the Motives
or the Intentions
of a poet, but the Affects and Effects of the power of
the creatively
expressed word. it seems that sitting
down to the
keyboard and
saying to oneself "i'm god" is a certain way for writer's
block ... far too
much responsibility.
I'd be more
interested and i recognize that some has been said already
along these
lines, about what notions the core Beats held toward the
role of the poet
for themselves, their families and friends, and society
at large?
essay exams will
be due to the committee by Monday morning!!!
:)
The Committee
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. to those i'd
shared news about my conservator's heart situation.
things appear to
be all clear. he won't be driving for
some time and i
am currently
shopping for an appropriate taxi driver's hat.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:14:51 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
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Sherri wrote:
>
> [snip] Maya
writes:
>
> Notice:
>
> It has recently come to my attention that
certain elements in the mist
> have been
disobeying the Policies of our establishment and institutional Alma
> Mater. Reports of idolatry, incohesion, and
dissimular thought-patterns have
> been made to
those with the authority to do something about it, i.e. mete out
>
punishment. We strongly urge the
perpetrators to come forward and turn
> themselves
over so they can tan the other side for all to see, in the form of
> posters and
other confessions of artistry. Names
will not be changed to
> protect the
guilty. We all know, comrades and
gentlewomen, that this type
> of
misbehavior will not be tolerated by God and all the angels at Heaven
> Country
Club. We all pay taxes, in the end. Except if you live in Virginia.
> Or Texas.
But any grandmother who wants to smoke pot should be rounded up
> and
shot. This mess was brought to you by
yours truly,
>
> madly and
deeply,
> -----maya
>
> A woman
after my own heart... How prosaic the
Beats have Beat police. A
> rousing cry
of "CENSORSHIP" may be in
order. I'm sure Jack, Neal & Allen
are
> tossing
& turning in their graves; and it could lead to the demise of our
> beloved
WSB!!!! Come on folks, if these guys
hadn't dared to follow their own
> hearts and
minds, instead of the mind-numbing, foolish, cattle mentality of
> American
society, we would have nothing to discuss.
>
> Forgive me
if I step on toes, I'm really a nice person.
:)
> But I refuse
to have my mind dictated to by anyone.
>
> Bon soir mes
amies,
> Sherri
police may be a
universal that one can never escape.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:19:02 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: God
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Sherri wrote:
>
> Why the hell
does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
> magical
powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
> little
beyond our own puny little selves?
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
i believe the
original biblical notion of god came in the words "I am no
name"
and "I am that I am" ...
perhaps humans felt a need to take that
notion of I and
connect it with their own. For whatever
the reason, it
seems that along
the way that original namings and their wonder have
been
misunderstood to the point of being forgotten.
a blade of grass
contains deity if
it "is that it is". just a
preacher's boy laughing at
the universe.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:20:20 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: An introduction and status of a poet
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Diane Carter
wrote:
> Who puts the poem or prose to the true test--
> is it art?
The reader, the critic, the writer?
the old old
gardener puts it to the test.
old old gardener
...
told him maya
thought he'd look like William Burroughs
and he cackled a
bit,
coughed three
times and quacked
"that young
whippersnapper"
through his
toothless mouth!
Why do you
garden?
It is a fairly
good thing to do.
Could you teach
me to garden.
NO!
Why not?
Last person i
taught pulled All the Weeds!!!
Who will garden
when you're gone?
Let's worry about
that when the time comes.
The old old
gardener walks away.
His back is a bit
more hunched than the photos of burroughs i've seen.
I'm not sure but
i think the old old gardener actually has
veto power over
the Committee.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:11:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Summer Reading Project
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Dear Beetles
Does anyone have
any suggestions for reading projects that might help
restore some
minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
completely
evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
more Kozmic
Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness? Beginning to sound like
what passes for
intellectual discussion in a freshman dorm.
Dr. Sax vs.
Mocassins? A WSB thing like Western
Lands?
We did a thing on
"Wichita Vortex Sutra" that was good.
HELP!!
We need to find a
way to keep this thing interesting without someone
dying.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:46:04 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: role of poet
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> i dunno.
> i just write
down what is in my head demanding to be written.
> or go insane
> or, ...... go insane and THEN write down what
is in my head demanding to
> be heard.
> mc
Actually that's
the only that thing works, writing because you have
to, the idea
being to swim in the poem, swim in the insanity, and if you
start to think
about either, you say, what the hell am I doing out here
in the water, in
the middle of the ocean, and in that instant you drown.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:52:59 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Poet
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
>> Here is
a Marxist twist to the role of the Poet:
>
> the poets have only
> interpreted the world,
> the point however
> is to bang it
>
> - that is, performing and
living the life of a "big
>bang
visionary"
Isn't that what
beat writers do, bang it?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:22:06 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
In-Reply-To: <33B529AA.35C6@pacbell.net>
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how bout keeping
with anniversaries of sorts: (re: 25 th anniversary of F&L
in vegas,
HST: fear and
loathing in vegas/hell's angesl
with first volume
of fear and loathing letters
i'm just about
done with rereading fear and loathing all set to jump into
hell's angels from
what i can tell, this is the period of either writing or
gestation of
first books.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:15:23 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
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Michael Stutz
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26
Jun 1997, Robert H. Sapp wrote:
>
> > havent
read very much prose by him, but i love his poetry. he has a sort
> > of
drunken clarity like being poked in the arm hard with a dull spoon.
>
> His prose is
excellent (imho better than his poetry but maybe that's just
> me, i like
prose more in general anyway), very clean and tight -- like HST,
> he's one of
the better Beat-related writers when it comes to understanding
> punctuation
and writing clean, tight prose.
>
> Michael
Stutz
>
stutz@dsl.org
>
http://dsl.org/m/
Get Burning in
Water, Drowning in Flame and The Days Run Away Like Wild
Horses Over the
Hills. Both great books of poetry.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:19:41 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: role of poet
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> it seems
that sitting down to the
> keyboard and
saying to oneself "i'm god" is a certain way for writer's
> block ...
far too much responsibility.
>
Why wouldn't it
be ultimate freedom, no blocks, no inhibitions, no one
dictating what it
is OK to feel, what it is that is OK to write about in
a poem? Totally resting on Ginsberg's idea that if
the mind is shapely,
the poem will be
shapely.
> I'd be more
interested and i recognize that some has been said already
> along these
lines, about what notions the core Beats held toward the
> role of the
poet for themselves, their families and friends, and society
> at large?
Ginsberg writes,
"I began
writing poetry 'cause I was a dope and my father wrote poetry
and my brother
wrote poetry and I started writing rhymes, like them,
until I went to
Columbia and fell in love with Jack Kerouac, and then got
into a a sort of
emotional rapport, a much deeper sense of confession,
wanting to
confess my feelings to him. But he didn't
want to hear them
so I had to find
another way of expressing them, a way which would
entrance him, and
make him see into my soul...And this process deepened
later on when as
a result of reading poetry, other people's poetry, like
Blake's, another
dimension of awareness dawned on my senses.
Besides the
tender intimacies
of friendship and yearnings, another psychedelic sense
or modality of
consciousness opened up within me, catalyzed by some short
texts of
Blake. Then I began seeing poetry as not
merely a sharing of
human secrets,
but a sharing of even the non-human, the cosmic,
universal,
archetypal knowledge of something beyond my own life, you
know, beyond my
own embarrassments, beyond my own loves."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:30:14 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: the almighty hot dog
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I have been out
of town and am clearing the posts. But
all this talk of
the Allmighty
reminded me of the Firesign. If someone
could flesh this
out, I would
appreciate it:
I am high, but on
real life, not false drugs, a good shoe shine, a car
wash and ??? but
now, I am coming down
n
n
n
n
n
I am down and I
am hungry, let's eat, A mighty hot dog
is our lord!
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:38:01 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Dear Beetles
>
> Does anyone
have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> restore some
minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> completely
evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> more Kozmic
Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness? Beginning to sound like
> what passes
for intellectual discussion in a freshman dorm.
>
> Dr. Sax vs.
Mocassins? A WSB thing like Western
Lands?
>
> We did a
thing on "Wichita Vortex Sutra" that was good.
>
> HELP!!
>
> We need to
find a way to keep this thing interesting without someone
> dying.
>
> J. Stauffer
I would be up for
a Sax vs. Moccasins discussion.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:12:21 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
In a message
dated 97-06-28 06:59:49 EDT, you write:
<< McClure has a way with words. >>
Personally I have
my way with words, then throw them away when I'm done.
------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:00:58 -0500
Reply-To: Leo Jilk <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leo Jilk <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Poet
In-Reply-To: <33B56B9B.1EC6@together.net>
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>neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>>
>>> Here
is a Marxist twist to the role of the Poet:
>>
>> the poets have only
>> interpreted the world,
>> the point however
>> is to bang it
>>
>> - that is, performing and
living the life of a "big
>>bang
visionary"
>
>Isn't that
what beat writers do, bang it?
>DC
Ginsberg was
quite successfull in that role, though i guess he considered
himself a failure
as he hadn't fucked ever rosy-cheeked bearded boy he ever
jacked off over.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:10:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: is it art?
this is a quote
from that website i told you about. I
think this person's
site is
brilliant. i think it's art. you have no idea what to do and it
forces you to do
something you never thought of doing.
And then it keeps
working by these
inane rules. CLICK ON THE BRAIN that's
all i'm gonna say.
There are pages and paages of really cool text
and web-craziness, but you
gotta work for
it. here's a pretty tame quote, anyway.
again, go to:
http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~maldoror/links.html
for more. and
remember to click on the brain, and click all over after that.
I think that he's
talking about himself and his website here.
"Benjamin's
notes for the Passagen-werk are
fragments of
citations in which the great majority
of the project's
themes are stated in abbreviated
fashion. Arcades
(reconstructed), art-couture
fashion,
hypersensitive boredom, dream-kitsch,
emotive
souvenirs, mannequins, black neon lights,
VR-headsets,
mimetic polyalloy architecture,
stop-frame
animation, holographic prostitution,
millennial
flaneurs, book arts collectors, data
counterfeiting,
Montemartre alleyways, museum
casings,
department store tele-displays, metros,
email postcards,
sidewalk graffiti, reflections from
computer
terminals, catacombs, interior industrial
design, MTV
channels, ethernet connections,
neo-Gaudian urban
planning, Baudelaire's opium
shock-urbanism.
Central methodological concepts
are also present
in the notes: dream image,
phantasmagoria,
dreaming collective, ur-history,
now-of-recognition,
dialectical image."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:12:16 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: hello i am stupod who are ewe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
For someone who
plans to read Moccasins when i get a chance, just what is
the connects or
reasons for such a comparison in the first place to Sax?
respectfully,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:13:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: no such thing
there is no such
thing as a poet.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:27:41 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: is it art?
Comments: To: Maya
Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970628171021_203057940@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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thanks for
posting this strange unrelated? post the reading of that list
was
MiNDblowinG...
for some one who
just reliezed that you can get lost on a computer like
someone walking
on the street in life--and not just in virtuospace
either, i mean
just on my frames windows in this computer as i wus tryin
to get to where i
log in like a journey failer quest like real? life
(and thus al so
with a mind separate from the reality controling the
movement of the
show) and thru the dark woodsy forest i came to te land
of the Beat-list.
wow i originally typed it as Berat-l.
heeeeheeeehheeeeehhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeehhheeehhhhhheeee.
now for your
viewing pleasure or deleting pleasure:
a newborn poem,
birth in process...
Im not going to
be smoking no more
cause i always think people
misterpret me
which they do
which i misinterpret
for a different
misinterpretation
misinterpretations of reality
!?
are you getting
this??
not so easy to write
about
as can you think?
oh where did
those moons go...oh where did these lil'
brains expire
i my head
in my missing
mind
goofin sorry,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Sat,
28 Jun 1997, Maya
Gorton wrote:
> this is a
quote from that website i told you about.
I think this person's
> site is
brilliant. i think it's art. you have no idea what to do and it
> forces you
to do something you never thought of doing.
And then it keeps
> working by
these inane rules. CLICK ON THE BRAIN
that's all i'm gonna say.
> There are pages and paages of really cool
text and web-craziness, but you
> gotta work
for it. here's a pretty tame quote,
anyway. again, go to:
>
>
http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~maldoror/links.html
>
> for more.
and remember to click on the brain, and click all over after that.
> I think that
he's talking about himself and his website here.
>
>
"Benjamin's notes for the Passagen-werk are
> fragments of
citations in which the great majority
> of the
project's themes are stated in abbreviated
> fashion.
Arcades (reconstructed), art-couture
> fashion,
hypersensitive boredom, dream-kitsch,
> emotive
souvenirs, mannequins, black neon lights,
> VR-headsets,
mimetic polyalloy architecture,
> stop-frame
animation, holographic prostitution,
> millennial
flaneurs, book arts collectors, data
>
counterfeiting, Montemartre alleyways, museum
> casings,
department store tele-displays, metros,
> email
postcards, sidewalk graffiti, reflections from
> computer
terminals, catacombs, interior industrial
> design, MTV
channels, ethernet connections,
> neo-Gaudian
urban planning, Baudelaire's opium
>
shock-urbanism. Central methodological concepts
> are also
present in the notes: dream image,
>
phantasmagoria, dreaming collective, ur-history,
>
now-of-recognition, dialectical image."
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:31:21 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: no such thing
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970628171316_1621886613@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
you cant probly
see it in this poat but the subject heading" no such
thing" and
did the messages "no such thing" lined up on my screen...
which means
absoluteluy nothing by itself (for what are sreen lines and
rows anyhow)
But maybe there
IS such a think as a poet? like God?
from,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> there is no
such thing as a poet.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:33:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: God is neither true nor false
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I saw in a post
where it is said that God and science have been proven
false. I think our ideas of both may be proven
false, but you can not
prove either of
them to be false, except through science or faith.
It is all in the
way you look at it.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:48:13 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Beat core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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J. Stauffer
wrote:
> Does anyone
have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> restore some
minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> completely
evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> more Kozmic
Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness?
Just finished
reading Kerouac's 'Mexico City Blues'. It gets stronger as
you read it. I
have come to the conclusion that his Blues choruses must
be read drunk, or
with at least a buzz, the rhythms jump out easier. It
is also closer to
his state while writing them.
Anybody read Bob
Kaufman? he's a real character.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:01:33 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In a message
dated 97-06-28 01:48:31 EDT, you write:
<< But I
refuse to have my mind dictated to by anyone. >>
How about
dictating to you.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:08:07 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
Yes, I was the
Wesley Medical print shop while I was working my way through
college in 50s. I
printed couple of mags and chapbooks.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:19:34 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
S. Clay just sent
me a Poetry Flash with an interview of Allen Ginsberg by
Jack Foley. It
seems like the same interview over and over. I hadn't seen the
Poetry Flash
since it was a little rag in SF. Now it looks like a full-funded
governmental
morality speak Orwellian new age poetry and completely boring
official word
control thought police subsidized new-age time warp. I love SF,
but I would hate
to live in its literary environment especially among all
those SF poetry
munchkins whose thought waves never go beyond the city
lights.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 20:29:57 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Summer Reading Update
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Deer Beetles.
Some wonderful
suggestions have started to pour into my the Summer
Reading Project
World Head Quarters here by the dock of the Bay.
A Brief Synopsis
of Todays Respondents
Dave Breithaupt
offers
Jack K.--Desolation Angels and Big Sur
(easy to vote for this one, for
me)
WSB--Lunch or Place of Dead Roads
Di Prima--Memoirs of a Beat Chick (is
that right)
Hettie Jones, How I became HJ
Marie Countryman
weighed in for focusing on anniverseries and the
HST letters and suggested
"The Hells Angels" by HST (which J
Stauffer feels should be
paired with Freewheeling Franks book
told to M. McClure
Mr Neurdorff
mentioned Jack's "Mex City Blues" and Bob Kaufmann(Cranial
Guitar would make
a good starting point here.)
Maya, seemingly
concerned with ease of access suggests something from
The Beat Reader which she thinks
everyone has (I don't, but could)
Race is undecided
and wanting to check out his local library, good idea,
and the women's basketball league.
William Rose sent
a longer list.
Nicocia's Memory Babe
"Spontaneous Poetics
Holy Goof
Jack's Scattered poems.
Johnson's Minor Characters.
Diane voted for
Sax vs Mocassins. Someone else wondered
why this choice
of a
coupling. It arose earlier on the list
in a proposed debate
between Mr.
Plymell and Mr. Anastee in connection with a strong
quotation from a
reviewer on the comparative worth of the two b ooks.
Mr. Plymell wrote
a nice analysis of the two, a very nice piece on Sax
that is worth
looking up. Mr. Anastee as far as I know
has not had his
round. /And seems
to be silent on the list.
I am easy, most
of these sound good to me, with the caveat that I would
like to at least
see discussion center on the primary works rather than
scholarship or
biography which is useful as an adjunct to discussing
the works themselves.
Let's see if any
of these pick up steam. I love
especially the idea of
getting a number
of us reading and rereading a Big Sur or Mexico City
Blues, or a WSB
or the HST Angels book.
Maybe nobody
reads the way I do. I hope not. I currently am messing
around in the
following.
Dr. Sax
Little Men--by Kevin Killian who used
to make very helpful
appearances on the list and has
a book on Jack
Spicer coming out soon. Kevin
did a really fun play
about the painter Jay DeFeo at
the SF Art Institute
last fall.
The Lost Coast--by Steven
Nightngale--warmed over Nicholls so
far
Forever Wider--Charles Plymell.
Firewalk through Madness and Beyond the
Haldol Haze by David
Rhaesa
The Blood Countess by Robert Peters
Cranial Guitar--Bob Kaufmann.
I noodle around
with pieces of prose until one grabs me by the neck and
I finish it in a
rush. Poetry I almost always read in
bits and pieces.
I would love to
know what other people are reading, and get at least
thumbnail reviews. This itself would make a good thread.
When we did
Wichita Vortex it never really took off for long. Bill
Gargan wrote a
very nice thing on it, but it seemed to get everyone
focused on the
work we were doing, and that itself is a good thing.
Let's see where
the energy goes. I will gladly join any of my friends in
a good reading
project.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:30:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
I wrote:
<< But I
refuse to have my mind dictated to by anyone. >>
You wrote:
<<How about
dictating to you.>>
C. Plymell
I'm not sure, but
do I detect a note of sarcasm here?
<G>
My mind does
dictate to me, which is probably why it so dislikes others making
such attempts on
it. It is also responsible for telling
me when acts and
ideas don't
correlate. If there is one GREAT thing
the Beats did for us (and
certainly there
more than one), it was to give us back our minds,thoughts,
hearts - to wake
us up from our sheep-like stupor... to
pull us out of the
enervation with
which society continues to seek to control the masses... made
us see that the
rules were made by fallable men whose only interests were to
maintain their
positions of power and wealth... Is it
not then antithetical
to impose rules
on discussion? Were it not for the
endless discussions
between WSB,
Jack, Allen & Neal, et al, on topics of all sorts, I fear that
"Beat"
literature/mindset would never have developed to the point of
publication.
Therefore, I
suggest that, while we are all on this list due to a particular
attraction to
this lifestyle/psyche/literature (however one chooses to define
it), the right to
discuss that which is foremost on one's mind, so long as it
is not truly
offensive to anyone, is paramount to the entire notion of this
discussion group.
Ok, enough of my
moralizing... just had to get that off my chest. Really, I'm
not a boring
hack... and I promise to drop the subject, unless someone brings
it up to me
again... <grins>
Bon soir,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 05:37:27 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: god is neither true nor false - comment
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isn't God
something that by definition isn't proved, but felt and believed
in?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 05:42:20 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: gregory corso?
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today i read a
sentence by gregory corso which completely fascinated me. it
was in serbian
(my language), though, so i will roghly translate and i would
appreciate it if
somebody could tell me the original text. it goes something
like this: it is
not the same to die of a cobra bite and of spoiled pork (?)
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:37:00 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
Wow.. have you
been living in San Francisco recently??
I don't find the
envirnment any
more stifling than what I perceive to be going on elsewhere.
Yes there is
always chaff and sell-out in the literary world as well as in
every other art
medium, but I hardly think that SF need be indicted any more
than NY, Chicago
or any other city. SF's rather free
environment still
promotes some
very interesting and original expression...
And despite the New
Age pablum, much
that is quite viable goes on here.
Ciao, Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 20:46:48 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
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Sherri wrote:
If there is one GREAT thing the Beats did for
us (and
> certainly
there more than one), it was to give us back our minds,thoughts,
> hearts - to
wake us up from our sheep-like stupor...
I don't remember
ever being in this stupor. Would you
even really want
to talk to
someone who was so out of it that it reading Burroughs,
Kerouac, Ginsberg
or Cassidy to realize there was a world out there?
The experience of
reading this stuff was to realize that there were more
than you thought
of your own kind out there.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:39:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false -
comment
isn't God
something that by definition isn't proved, but felt and believed
in?
ksenija
Ksenija... couldn't agree with you more!
Ciao,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:05:01 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false -
comment
Comments: To:
Ksenija Simic <ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
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Ksenija Simic
wrote:
>
> isn't God
something that by definition isn't proved, but felt and believed
> in?
>
> ksenija
It depends on how
you look at it. I would say that either
you "know" or
you don't. What God is not is a crutch. She is the small still voice.
The male =
father, the female = spirit, the children = us. It's an old
myth that is
true, whether it happened or not. If you
feel it, you will
hear the spirit
rush, you will feel the living waters, and Bob Dylan
said if there is
a God it is the River, because it is the only thing
that is in the
mountains, going around the bend and at the ocean all at
the same time. And well, I believe, I feel, but I can not
prove truth.
Ask Pilate, maybe
he would like a second chance. My
kingdom is not of
this mail
list! Feed the hungry, heal the sick,
visit those who are in
jail.
As
Steppenwolf/John Kay once said, "We've got to go from here to there,
eventually."
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 21:22:59 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: EXPLODING BEAT READING LIST AND MAO
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s.a. griffin's
idea of a Beat List Reading List and mine of a Beat List
Literary
Map. Writers listed under locale. Writer can appear in more
than one place,
but must have important tie to area, not just passing
through. I'll start with a very sketchy West Coast
portrait. The list
should
EXPLODE. feel free to add, delete, move,
etc. Needs to have
favorite titles
added somewhere
PORTLAND
Snyder, Gary
Welsh, Lew
Whalen, Phil
SAN FRANCISCO
Duncan, Robert
Spicer, Jack
Rexroth, Kenneth
Watts, Alan
Lamantia, Phillip
Kaufman, Bob
McClure, Michael
Snyder, Gary
Welsh, Lew
Whalen, Phil
Plymell, Charles
Reynolds, Frank
Kyger, Joanne
Kandel, Lenore
Micheline, Jack
LOS ANGELES
Lipton, Lawrence
Bukowski, Charles
Peters, Robert
griffin, s.a.
Selby, Herbert
Morrison, Jim
Huxley, Aldous
Kesey, Ken
SAN DIEGO
Gerlach, Fred
and on and on
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:50:35 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false -
comment LONG
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
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Sherri wrote:
>
> Beautifully
said, Bentz.
>
> God is the
one thread that runs through everything... and is everything and
> nothing,
simultaneously. How can that be proved
or disproved? The evidence
> seems
overwhelmingly in favor of this Spirit's existence... from Jung to
> Stephen
Hawking we have the constant acknowledgment that there is "life"
which
> goes beyond
that which science define.
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
Thank you. I live for the joy of knowing ONENESS and
call it God, but I
do not know the
name, only what rings true. I know that
God does not
boycott Disney
World or appear on the 700 Club. And think about it, if
he did, Pat
Robertson would probably have him arrested and taken off the
set. Hey, if God parks in the First Baptist Church
parking lot in
Columbia, SC, to
work out at the Y, they tow his car, why, because he is
not a member.
The Day God Got
Towed
Sherri wrote:
>
> Beautifully
said, Bentz.
>
> God is the
one thread that runs through everything... and is everything and
> nothing,
simultaneously. How can that be proved
or disproved? The evidence
> seems
overwhelmingly in favor of this Spirit's existence... from Jung to
> Stephen
Hawking we have the constant acknowledgment that there is "life"
which
> goes beyond
that which science define.
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
God was going to
work out at the y.
He saw a big
parking lot with 5 cars in it.
So, he pulled his
Explorer in and parked.
(He used to have
a Surbuban, but he changes brands every year.)
He was meeting
Zeus for a handball game and was late.
He missed the
sign that said, "This parking lot
is the property
of First Baptist Church. Non-member cars
will be towed
away at the owner's expense."
He wondered why
more people did not park there.
He noticed the
Church was LOCKED up tight.
Zeus parked two
blocks away, he read the sign.
Besides, Thor had
been towed a week before.
And Zeus hated
getting stuck with that bill.
(That was why
Zeus suggested that he and God play
for $35.00
tonight.)
Anyway, God,
scanned his Y card and the woman
Behind the desk
noticed his membership had expired.
He wrote a check,
but did not rejoin the health club.
Didn't have time
for the massages or the steam bath.
Besides, he
didn't feel right about the fact that
Miriam could not
use the health club.
Lucky for God,
Zeus was off his game and God won
the $35.00 bet.
Cause when he
went out side, his car was towed away.
Zeus laughed his
ass off.
God thought to
himself, "I have to remember to
give Hera a call
and tell her about that new girl
Zeus has been
seeing."
Anyway, it cost
God $35.00 to get his car back.
Years later, he
told the First Baptist Church,
"Depart from
me, I never knew you."
"And oh
yeah, Peter, get $35.00 from them before they
hit the
exit."
Zeus got in
trouble again with Hera.
And Thor didn't
get towed again,
But the City cops
put a boot
On his Firebird
because he didn't pay his
Parking
tickets. Zeus met the meter maid.
Then every thing
was cool again.
Zeus never did
win a handball game though.
Oh well, just a thought. Not a Homer.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:56:38 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false-
corrective post
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
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Sorry I botched
the other post with the double quote.
Here is the work
of art by
itself. Delete it if you need it, or
keep it if you dare.
And it's just the
day God got towed.
>
> The Day God
Got Towed
>
> God was
going to work out at the y.
> He saw a big
parking lot with 5 cars in it.
> So, he
pulled his Explorer in and parked.
> (He used to
have a Surbuban, but he changes brands every year.)
> He was
meeting Zeus for a handball game and was late.
> He missed
the sign that said, "This parking lot
> is the
property of First Baptist Church.
Non-member cars
> will be
towed away at the owner's expense."
> He wondered
why more people did not park there.
> He noticed
the Church was LOCKED up tight.
> Zeus parked
two blocks away, he read the sign.
> Besides,
Thor had been towed a week before.
> And Zeus
hated getting stuck with that bill.
> (That was
why Zeus suggested that he and God play
> for $35.00
tonight.)
> Anyway, God,
scanned his Y card and the woman
> Behind the
desk noticed his membership had expired.
> He wrote a
check, but did not rejoin the health club.
> Didn't have
time for the massages or the steam bath.
> Besides, he
didn't feel right about the fact that
> Miriam could
not use the health club.
> Lucky for
God, Zeus was off his game and God won
> the $35.00
bet.
> Cause when
he went out side, his car was towed away.
> Zeus laughed
his ass off.
> God thought
to himself, "I have to remember to
> give Hera a
call and tell her about that new girl
> Zeus has
been seeing."
> Anyway, it
cost God $35.00 to get his car back.
> Years later,
he told the First Baptist Church,
> "Depart
from me, I never knew you."
> "And oh
yeah, Peter, get $35.00 from them before they
> hit the
exit."
> Zeus got in
trouble again with Hera.
> And Thor
didn't get towed again,
> But the City
cops put a boot
> On his
Firebird because he didn't pay his
> Parking tickets. Zeus met the meter maid.
> Then every
thing was cool again.
>
> Zeus never
did win a handball game though.
>
> Oh well,
just a thought. Not a Homer.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:05:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: PS
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I know that Zeus
and Thor don't on the surface go together.
But, I just
happen to really
like the old Thor comic books by Marvel, so I used Thor
instead of a
Greek diety. Besides, I just lump
Jehovah on one side and
all the others on
the other.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:21:54 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
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Hello Charles,
I've been on the
road doing a few blues gigs and tied up with my old
friend Luther Allison
and ended-up writing an interview for him and
Alligator
Records. It'll come out before July 11 (he'll be playing
here on that
date). Pulse magazine interviewed me and I mentioned you
and AG. I'm not
sure if I'll be censored or not so I'll mail you the
original before
they fuck it up. Maybe the BEAT-L would like to see it.
Roxanne's been
taking care of the e-mail and caught your description of
peyote tasting
like bile out of the devil's asshole-man
we both agreed on
that one. I ate 6 buttons once and thought I seen
god and when I
looked again it was the neighbor kid doing it dog style
with his cousin
Mary. From that day forth, I accepted his cousin Mary
as my personal
savior.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:23:51 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
Comments: To:
stand666@bitstream.net
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R&R Houff
wrote:
>
> Hello
Charles,
>
> I've been on
the road doing a few blues gigs and tied up with my old
> friend
Luther Allison and ended-up writing an interview for him and
> Alligator
Records. It'll come out before July 11 (he'll be playing
> here on that
date). Pulse magazine interviewed me and I mentioned you
> and AG. I'm
not sure if I'll be censored or not so I'll mail you the
> original
before they fuck it up. Maybe the BEAT-L would like to see it.
> Roxanne's
been taking care of the e-mail and caught your description of
> peyote
tasting like bile out of the devil's asshole-man
> we both
agreed on that one. I ate 6 buttons once and thought I seen
> god and when
I looked again it was the neighbor kid doing it dog style
> with his
cousin Mary. From that day forth, I accepted his cousin Mary
> as my
personal savior.
>
> Richard
Houff
> Pariah Press
Richard:
Once, I looked
out the window of my bedroom. I think I
was 17 at the
time. I saw God, he was coming to earth, and he was
PISSED at all of
us. If you see him again, or even Mary, would you
ask him if there is
something we can
do to help him chill. I really don't
want to see him
again right
now. I am busy and seeing God tends to
disrupt one's life.
I know you and
Charles know what I mean. I mean we have
to see him at
the gate when we
check out, so, I figure, let's just get prepared or
something. In the meantime, I would like to read the
interview before
it gets
edited. Thanks. It'll give me something to do and take my
mind
off life in
general. Keep on keeping on. But you really ought to
change your
handle to stand777. You know 666 is an
encryption for the
Roman Emporers
that did a lot of evil things and it might be bad karma
to use that, but
then again, it might help you out in the long run.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:12:45 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: GO
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James Stauffer
wrote:
> Let's see
where the energy goes. I will gladly join any of my friends > in a
good reading project.
Sounds good.
Finished reading
John Clellon Holmes' "GO". Not very impressive. The
history behind
the book, its main characters, and publication make it a
good book for
nostalgic reasons. Published in 1952, 4 yrs before
Ginsberg, 5 yrs
before Kerouac's pop success. The characters included
Ginsberg,
Kerouac, Neal & one of his wives, Huncke (found on street by
Ginsberg in shit
state after much heroin), Holmes & wife, and many more
i could not
identify. It is written with 3rd person narration with
himself as one of
the characters, but i found the narration a little too
personal, too
rapt up in action, not enough separation. There is an
interesting
description of one of Ginsberg's Blakeian visions.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:13:55 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: SPAIR OWS! <<ca ca>>
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the spare (us)
[[birds running
wildly]]
let it be, the
space between us
- beatle (george harrison)
-----------------------
don't have fear
this space between us
spare us
someting in conflict with
-th-e-ou-ter-rea-ache=s, ow!~
the outer reaches
(an
anthropologists report ::
deep from the heart of mother africa)
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:23:25 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: S.F. & Montreal
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I went down to
San Francisco for first time in December 1996, visited
what must be
visited, even performed at a couple of shows, and
thoroughly enjoyed
the pastel hills. If there was an American city to
live in, it would
be S.F. I'm from the other side of the continent:
Montreal - just
came back from Jazz Fest. Montreal is up there in places
to live . . . at
least in the summer (i think it is the city with the
most # of
festivals in the world . . . grooving to free outdoor show
while far in
background fireworks blast off from other festival . . .)
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:25:45 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706290538490255@msn.com>
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because the sky
is blue, that's why. Am listening to
this Beatle fest a
local radio
station is having. what fun. grew up on these folx. John,
George, Paul, and
Ringo wrote some rockin' beat poetry.
"Dr. Roberts your
a new bred of
man!"
and I always feel
like I'm running
never satisfied
to settle
neither in court
nor in person
too often by
email
and golden moments
stolen from videos
starring angelic
looking robber children
something has
been taken from me
and I wont rest
until I do
find that I must
find
gotta keep
running
Where is
everyone?
then is
phenomenal
oh, how I'm
feeling?
<<breathing,
breathing>>
and mary jane
doesn't hurt that much
not that much, a
few pains here and there
like my chest
heaving against my pillows
late night movies
on neighbors televisions
cars continuing
to shuffle on the nearby highway
and the
effervescent fridge, how that mean mother haunts me
continually,
continually, the headless horseman
riding to find
me, oh, running
oh, I must be
still, not act
no breathing, oh,
I must be dreaming
is that so? Is that so?
I say, can I have a witness?
<<horns
blowing>>
enjoying my
dinner, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:35:51 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: PS
In-Reply-To: <33B5ED08.E9BA234@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:05 PM -0700
6/28/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I know that
Zeus and Thor don't on the surface go together.
But, I just
> happen to
really like the old Thor comic books by Marvel, so I used Thor
> instead of a
Greek diety. Besides, I just lump
Jehovah on one side and
> all the
others on the other.
yes, and I bet
michael jordan could whup them all!
<<ha>> Will he ever
stop his climb
and enjoy the view from his perch?
"No, I'm just resting,"
he says
<<gatorade commercial>>. Is
he climbing Mt. Olympus?
the game within
the game. inspiration. his source.
<<....don't
on the surface go together>>
:: god has a surface???
really???? CAN YOU SEE IT???
I'm just seeing
stars over here... where do you live?
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:42:02 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: scholars of breathing
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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ok word fiends,
beat literates, cut throad pirates::
does
<<laughing>> = <<breathing>>
or is laughing
something else, entirely? I guess
there's an exhale
involved, but
what do you call the sound it makes?
breathing always seems
to have a flow to
it. a calm feeling. laughing doesn't. but you breath a
lot when your
laughing, so the two must be connected.
some secret passway,
like the ones
janitors have between the ladies and the gents.
<<laugh>>
Douglas <<beating the god metaphor as hard as
he's got>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:01:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: PS
In-Reply-To: <33B5ED08.E9BA234@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:05 PM -0700
6/28/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I know that
Zeus and Thor don't on the surface go together.
sorry, but I just
had this crazy thought: god and zues are
going together?
What, are they
spending time in the closet together?
exchanging pleasant
nothings? I mean, when did they start seeing each
other? Does Jehovah
know? <<this is a tragedy!!>> Call a doctor! I think god must be a
woman!!??
<<%
100
percent
proof>>
Douglas <<getting off now>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:04:44 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: ginsberg link
Comments: cc:
vpaul@gwdi.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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when upon ginsberg's passing. what brought me to this list.
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/fahrkle/collages/Various/Howl.html
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:24:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Update
In-Reply-To: <33B5D6B5.540F@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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just finished
fear and loathing in los vegas, forgot how wonderfully
raunchy it all
gets. am hopping on back of harley to join HST as he blasts
off with hells
angels-and then onto the fear&loathing letters vol. 1
i could also be
talked into doing the two kerouac novels as well.
other than that,
i've been reading small press and chapbooks of friends
works, not
readily available anywhere i dont think
my ability to
read has been waxing and waning (cursed) so lately i've been
writing. but must
haul head up out of own navel and discuss something
outside myself
with others.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:53:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
>
> I don't
remember ever being in this stupor.
Would you even really want
> to talk to
someone who was so out of it that it reading Burroughs,
> Kerouac,
Ginsberg or Cassidy to realize there was a world out there?
> The
experience of reading this stuff was to realize that there were
>more
> than you
thought of your own kind out there.
>
Absolutely, my
line of thought exactly. When I first
read Ginsberg, for
the first time in
my life, I knew that there was someone else out there
who thought like
I did and was actually writing about it.
That, of
course, led to
reading more beat lit, and realizing that there were lots
of other voices
speaking the same thoughts as my voice.
That is why this
list is so great,
because beyond what ever disagreements develop or
where ever the
the discussion takes us, we all know that deep down we are
connected my a common river of thought, many little streams that all
way in some way
are touching the same river.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:58:54 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
MIME-Version: 1.0
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runner911 wrote:
>
> and I always
feel like I'm running
> never
satisfied to settle
> neither in
court nor in person
>
> too often by
email
> and golden
moments stolen from videos
> starring
angelic looking robber children
>
> something
has been taken from me
> and I wont
rest until I do
> find that I
must find
> gotta keep
running
>
> Where is
everyone?
> then is
phenomenal
> oh, how I'm
feeling?
>
<<breathing, breathing>>
>
> and mary
jane doesn't hurt that much
> not that
much, a few pains here and there
> like my
chest heaving against my pillows
> late night
movies on neighbors televisions
> cars
continuing to shuffle on the nearby highway
> and the
effervescent fridge, how that mean mother haunts me
> continually,
continually, the headless horseman
>
> riding to
find me, oh, running
> oh, I must
be still, not act
> no
breathing, oh, I must be dreaming
>
> is that
so? Is that so? I say, can I have a witness?
>
<<horns blowing>>
>
> enjoying my
dinner, Douglas
> enjoying your thoughts, Douglas. Clarifies the runner911 sig a lot.
we are all running, breathing, dreaming,
living, I hope.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:16:53 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Update
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie,
I have fairly
foggy memories of the Hells Angels book, mostly the
account of the
Kesey party. As I mentioned you might
look at
"Freewheeling
Frank", by Frank Reynolds (as told to Michael McClure.)
Grove, 1967, have
no idea how available it is. Frank was
one of Angels
who was most
involved in the era in which the Angels were a part of the
SF hip
scene. It's a fun read, less
intentionally sensational than
HST's book as I
remember it. Joanna McClure has a nice
little poem
about Frank.
James Stauffer
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> just finished
fear and loathing in los vegas, forgot how wonderfully
> raunchy it
all gets. am hopping on back of harley to join HST as he blasts
> off with
hells angels-and then onto the fear&loathing letters vol. 1
> i could also
be talked into doing the two kerouac novels as well.
> other than
that, i've been reading small press and chapbooks of friends
> works, not
readily available anywhere i dont think
> my ability
to read has been waxing and waning (cursed) so lately i've been
> writing. but
must haul head up out of own navel and discuss something
> outside
myself with others.
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:52:51 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: reminder
> I am seeking
collaborators for a 'Zine' project. It
will consist of the
> following:
>
> ---poetry,
poetic prose
> ---social
ciriticism
> ---sociology
of art and literature
> ---music and
book and film reviews
> ---artwork
(photos, drawings, paintings, ideas)
>
> The end
product will be printed on actual paper (remember that stuff?) in
> black and
white with color pages and real binding (not staples!!). I would
> like to work
on it this summer and print it in September, as I am leaving
> country
indefinitely in October.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:02:25 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In-Reply-To: <33B615BE.2AA5@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 12:58 AM -0700
6/29/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> > Where
is everyone?
> > then is
phenomenal
> > enjoying your thoughts, Douglas. Clarifies the runner911 sig a lot.
> we are all running, breathing, dreaming,
living, I hope.
Well, I hope you
liked my typo, too!
<<laugh>>
the line should
have read:
> > Where
is everyone?
> > *this*
is phenomenal
but the mistake
made me think of someone Shapiro, an art history theorist,
who said
"let us not ask 'what is art', but '*when* is art!' " (or
something like
that).
And what does
your .sig "Diane Carter" mean?
I'll track down one of those
anagram links and
then we'll really see what you're made of.
And following
my train of
thought, <<bringing this back to the beats>>, what of all the
pseudonames used
by Ginsberg and Kerouac in their literature?
Anybody have
a list of em
handy? their inspiration?
<<oh, he
almost cried, when they asked if he knew his name...
-- david bowie (Ziggy Stardust)>>
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:05:41 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: JAMES/FRISCO/& BENTZ
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello James,
If you catch
Luther in Frisco you won't be disappointed-he'll be
playing a 1960
Les Paul (reissue). He tore up the 1995 Chicago Blues
Fest with that
same guitar. I don't think you'll find him at City
Lights-but I'm
willing to bet on the wharf-he loves his fish! Hey Bentz,
that's a pretty
wild handle I carry. My kids thought it would
be good
CYBERMOJO-it's good to be back and breathing.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:04:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: spare us
I DONT WANNA HEAR
ABOUT GOD ANYMORE
the bastard gets
far more attention than he deserves.
And as someone
already suggested, what are we, college freshmen? Staying up
late in the dorm
hallway, thinking we're SO DEEP and the fate of the world
rests with
us? Jeesus Christ. I am coming to the conclusion that there are
some things that
should be thought but not articulated.
This may be one
of them.
---maya <<sighing>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:17:13 -0000
Reply-To: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Beat Friends
& Philosophers:
What's the problem, Maya? How can he be such a bastard if he really
exists? The problem, as I see it, is simple: too many people claim to
have the goods on
him, yet no one lives like they do. . .
A few posts ago, someone (forgive me,
my itchy delete finger got the best
of me) said our
buddy Nietzche proved him dead a long time ago, well, I did
read the book,
and Nietzche did no such proving. All
Nietzche did was make
a declaration and
then live by it. I wish more people
would do the same,
meaning, I wish
people would say something and then live up to it.
I can think of plenty of things that
get too much play, but God or the
lack of (in
whatever form he/she does/doesn't exist) should be talked about
a hell of a lot
more than it is, especially here.
Who gives a shit what does or doesn't
make a poet. We'll sit here till
the cows come
home debating that one, but God, well now, he gets too much
time on the old
Beat-L, let's not talk about him anymore.
Fuck that.
Thinking himself
SO DEEP,
Bruce
... Sin strongly.
--Martin Luther
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:24:51 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Philip Lamantia(?)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Poetry by Philip Lamantia (?)
The real stuff.
Small presses.
(Mostly.)
Big thoughts.
Some with
punctuation.
some without
All in love with
language.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:34:00 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <199706292017.QAA25284@everest>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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yo, homeboy!
lets get off all
this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
talking about some
<gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
(a very broad
hint from a bear of little brain)
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:31:10 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: wrong
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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friends
apologies, i push the wrong button, ---Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:58:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: two beats in one state meet
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hi all. i dont
want to make this into chatroom city, but did want to tell
you all that
diane carter (my editor from mad magazine and journalist in
her own write)
and i met for lunch. and diane kept her lunch down after
being assaulted
verbally by my own recordings of my recent pomes. that's
bein in the
trenches let me tell you. and a perceptive ear as well as a
comely eye,
diane.
thanks
leon, you were
right all along!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:30:24 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: restless farewell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Dearest
Beat-lovers,
It's been an
interesting season of happening on this here list, sad
occurances,
battles, vibes, happy thoughts, pomes, community almost.
(This is not a
literature post!)
I'm going on the
road tommorrow, gonna be spending the summer mostly on
the Carolina
beaches. I just wanted to say to everyone on this list that
i've enjoyed the
"company," to say the least this list beats the hell
outa the evening
news, and to say a little more i've learned alot hear.
To all the
aspiring and perspiring and inspiring poets of the list: keep
up the work!
To all the
members old and new: keep the list REAL!
There have been
countless words of wisdom, intentional accidental shared
saved deleted,
here over these lonely wires, from everybody and everyone,
even the watchful
eyes of the lurkers can sumtimes be felt pounding thru
the screen.
Glad to have been
an (in)active witness. I sall be rejoining the list in
the fall as a
collegiate. if any brain cells survive the summer, that is.
"Goodbye
momma and poppa
goodbye jack and
jill
the grass aint
greener, the wine aint sweeter
either side of
the hill" -- the dead
from,
Eric Sapp
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
"everybody's
holy!" -- Ginsberg
"we'll hold
hands and then we'll
watch the sun
rise
from the bottom
of the sea" -- Jimi Hendrix
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:18:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: spare us
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
> mc
OK, I' going to
sum up my view of the god/poet debate with this poem from
Allen Ginsberg
from Cosmopolitan Greetings.
Proclamation
I am the King of
the Universe
I am the Messiah
with a new dispensation
Excuse me I
stepped on a nail.
A mistake
Perhaps I am not
the Capitalist of Heaven
Perhaps I'm a
gate keeper snoring
beside the Pearl Columns--
No this isn't
true, I really am God himself.
Not at all
human. Don't associate me
w/that Crowd
In any case you
can believe every word
I say.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:46:05 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
WOO HOO
Bruce! Couldn't have put it better
myself!
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bruce W. Hartman, Jr.
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 9:17 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
Beat Friends
& Philosophers:
What's the problem, Maya? How can he be such a bastard if he really
exists? The problem, as I see it, is simple: too many people claim to
have the goods on
him, yet no one lives like they do. . .
A few posts ago, someone (forgive me,
my itchy delete finger got the
best
of me) said our
buddy Nietzche proved him dead a long time ago, well, I did
read the book,
and Nietzche did no such proving. All
Nietzche did was make
a declaration and
then live by it. I wish more people
would do the same,
meaning, I wish
people would say something and then live up to it.
I can think of plenty of things that
get too much play, but God or the
lack of (in
whatever form he/she does/doesn't exist) should be talked about
a hell of a lot
more than it is, especially here.
Who gives a shit what does or doesn't
make a poet. We'll sit here
till
the cows come
home debating that one, but God, well now, he gets too much
time on the old
Beat-L, let's not talk about him anymore.
Fuck that.
Thinking himself
SO DEEP,
Bruce
... Sin strongly.
--Martin Luther
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:10:47 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
> mc
Marie:
If Jack wrote
because we are all going to die. If we
deny we are going
to die. And if we made up god because we are all
going to die. Then
literature is about
we are all going to die. God is about we
are all
going to
die. Beat is about we are all going to
die. It is all about
the same
thing. It is the same thing. god = literature = poets =
nothing = dog (if
you're dyslexic) = beat-l. What do you
want to talk
about? I am thinking that lit-er-a-chure is very
very personal. I am
thinking that as
my cyber pen pal charles plymell once said, I think I
am going to take
a real shit. That will be real. It is not personal.
And it will be
shared with all the alligators down in the sewer. I
guess gravity's
rainbow can help us tell shit from shinola, but which
yo-yos are going
to catch the alligators that live down in a all the
real personal
shit we send down the tube every day.
Have you ever
worshipped a
white porcelain god? I have. It is one way to know the
wrath of god
close up. You always make a lot of
promises you never keep
too. I wonder if allen, jack, neal, charles,
harold, lawrence, ann,
anias, phillip,
gary, gary, etc ever WASTED time talking about god? or
religion? If so, why can't we?
Maybe I just
don't get it. If so, please explain it
to me back channel.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:03:04 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Luther Allison
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Richard,
Got my ticket and
going up to the city in a few minutes.
Luther is
playing Great
American Music Hall which is a nice venue.
Looking
forward to
hearing that Les Paul rip.
James
R&R Houff
wrote:
>
> Hello James,
>
> If you catch
Luther in Frisco you won't be disappointed-he'll be
> playing a
1960 Les Paul (reissue). He tore up the 1995 Chicago Blues
> Fest with
that same guitar. . .
>
> Richard
Houff
> Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:14:05 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: EXPLODING BEAT READING LIST AND MAO
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s.a. griffin
wrote:
>
> At 09:22 PM
6/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >s.a.
griffin's idea of a Beat List Reading List and mine of a Beat List
> >Literary
Map. Writers listed under locale. Writer can appear in more
> >than one
place, but must have important tie to area, not just passing
>
>through. I'll start with a very
sketchy West Coast portrait. The list
> >should
EXPLODE. feel free to add, delete, move,
etc. Needs to have
> >favorite
titles added somewhere
> >
> >PORTLAND
> >
> >Snyder,
Gary
> >Welsh,
Lew
> >Whalen,
Phil
> >
> >SAN
FRANCISCO
> >
> >Duncan,
Robert
> >Spicer,
Jack
> >Rexroth,
Kenneth
> >Watts,
Alan
>
>Lamantia, Phillip
> >Kaufman,
Bob
> >McClure,
Michael
> >Snyder,
Gary
> >Welsh,
Lew
> >Whalen,
Phil
> >Plymell,
Charles
>
>Reynolds, Frank
> >Kyger,
Joanne
> >Kandel,
Lenore
>
>Micheline, Jack
> >Kesey,
Ken
Ferlinghetti,
Lawrence
CENTRAL COAST
Miller, Henry
Patchen, Kenneth
> >
LOS ANGELES
> >
> >Lipton,
Lawrence
>
>Bukowski, Charles
> >Peters,
Robert
> >griffin,
s.a.
> >Selby,
Herbert
>
>Morrison, Jim
> >Huxley,
Aldous
> Scibella,
Tony
> Thomas, John
> Rios, Frank
T.
> Long,
Philomene
> Wannberg,
Scott
> Maybe, Ellyn
> Abee, St
> >
> >
> >SAN
DIEGO
> >
> >Gerlach,
Fred (a great 12 string player, only San Diegan I could think of)
Someone needs to
do the midwest.
> >
> >
> >and on
and on
> >
> >James
Stauffer
> >
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:14:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 4:10 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
> mc
Marie:
If Jack wrote
because we are all going to die. If we
deny we are going
to die. And if we made up god because we are all
going to die. Then
literature is
about we are all going to die. God is
about we are all
going to
die. Beat is about we are all going to
die. It is all about
the same
thing. It is the same thing. god = literature = poets =
nothing = dog (if
you're dyslexic) = beat-l. What do you
want to talk
about? I am thinking that lit-er-a-chure is very
very personal. I am
thinking that as
my cyber pen pal charles plymell once said, I think I
am going to take
a real shit. That will be real. It is not personal.
And it will be
shared with all the alligators down in the sewer. I
guess gravity's
rainbow can help us tell shit from shinola, but which
yo-yos are going
to catch the alligators that live down in a all the
real personal
shit we send down the tube every day.
Have you ever
worshipped a
white porcelain god? I have. It is one way to know the
wrath of god
close up. You always make a lot of
promises you never keep
too. I wonder if allen, jack, neal, charles,
harold, lawrence, ann,
anias, phillip,
gary, gary, etc ever WASTED time talking about god? or
religion? If so, why can't we?
Maybe I just
don't get it. If so, please explain it
to me back channel.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Thank you Bentz.
Maybe the
suggestion should be: if you don't like
the book don't read it...
doesn't mean the
book isn't worthwhile for others. I
don't think that because
I'm not
particularly interested in something (or even think something's not
fit to wipe my
ass for that matter) no one else should be.... and god forbid
that I should
ever try to stuff someone else's self-expression (outside of
that which is
harmful to any form of life... for Spirit is the anima, the
constant, the
thread... god has anyone here read Jung's Aion?) regardless of
my opinion of it. If I don't like it I'll ignore it, not
engage....
By the way, I may
be wrong, but I always thought that the very act of
publishing a work
of literature was to open the collective conciousness to
something,
because someone needed/wanted to get something very personal out
there for others
to experience/feel/discuss....
for what it's
worth,
Sherri
love_singing@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:45:59 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
In a message
dated 97-06-29 01:36:20 EDT, you write:
<< I've
been on the road doing a few blues gigs and tied up with my old
friend Luther Allison and ended-up writing an
interview for him and
Alligator Records. It'll come out before July
11 (he'll be playing
here on that date). Pulse magazine interviewed
me and I mentioned you
and AG. I'm not sure if I'll be censored or
not so I'll mail you the
original before they fuck it up. >>
Richard,
Thanks. I been
wondern' who happen to ya. I wuz about to net you. Dibn't know
you were on Bad
Blues Road. Been listening to Big Joe Turner's lyrics. "
Please Mr.
Johnson, don't play the blues so sad."
Good hearing from
you. Maybe the Beat-L would be interested in the interview,
too.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:52:40 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Kerouac names (was notice to all beetles)
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runner711 wrote:
>what of all
the
> pseudonames
used by Ginsberg and Kerouac in their literature? Anybody
>have
> a list of em
handy? their inspiration?
I just bought The
Portable Jack Kerouac and it has a two-page identity
key, too complex
to type at the moment. There have been
other threads on
this topic that
you could check out in the beat-l archive, if it
interests
you. The most interesting thing to me
though was in Ann
Charters
introduction, where she writes, "Kerouac enjoyed making large
claims for what
he was attempting to achieve in his Legend of Duluoz, but
thinking about
his writing in grandiose terms came naturally to him. He
created his
three-syllable pseudonym 'Duluoz' in 1942, when he was barely
twenty years
old. This was a decade before he began
writing the books
that comprise the
Legend of Duluoz. Kerouac invented his
pseudonym after
encountering the
name 'Stephen Dedalus,' created by James Joyce for his
protagonist in
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, which Kerouac read
after he dropped
out of Columbia College and worked briefly as a sports
reporter for his
hometown newspaper. According to his
journals and a
poem in 'Richmond
Hill Blues'(1953), Kerouac noticed a story in the
Lowell Sun about
a local man named 'Daoulas,' and he later played around
with several
variations on it, like 'Dalouas,' 'Dalous,' and 'Duouoiz,'
before settling
on 'Duluoz.'"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:01:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
In a message
dated 97-06-29 00:24:43 EDT, you write:
<< I love the place, but these guys
don't see past their own navels. >>
When I was there
they were looking for their navels. There is strange sense
there and
everywhere of fragmentation. I was just
raving about the uncanny
commercial aspect
of the way Poetry Flash presented the soul of SF as well as
our current poetry
milieu. Just wanted to see if anyone was listening.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:19:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
In a message
dated 97-06-29 01:39:17 EDT, you write:
<< You know
666 is an encryption for the
Roman Emporers that did a lot of evil things
and it might be bad karma
to use that, but then again, it might help you
out in the long run.
>>
How many Karmas
since the Roman Empire?
I'll tell you
many just since the word was hip
has to do with
Ginsbergs, too--long a story for
now, sell a
Karma/ Moloch got you.
Chemical euphoria
eats the Poetry Flash paper!
Pegasus
electrified in red
below the great
signs shining
on the
horizon...MOBIL
for travelers of
the new dark ages
with
superstitions, icons, symbols
talk of prophets,
karma, golden rule
and all that old
horseshit jazz
in a system that
only eats its
younger
generations who always
catch on about
the time they're swallowed
while reading the
new morality speak
in the New York
Times.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: GO
I've never read
GO. I'll take your recommendation under consideration.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:30:47 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In a message
dated 97-06-29 15:15:41 EDT, you write:
<< I DONT
WANNA HEAR ABOUT GOD ANYMORE >>
Thank you Jeazus
and Bubba Buddha too.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:38:39 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
literature.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:58:42 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
This is true....
but are you assuming that cuz we're talkin bout god that it's
the simplistic
Biblical one? I for one can't accept
that one dimensional
model... However, I have known Christians who do read
and have a much more
expanded view on
this subject than the sheep-like majority...
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 7:38 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
literature.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:08:24 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <l03020900afdc3eb5a63c@[206.25.67.104]>
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At 1:34 PM -0700
6/29/97, Marie Countryman wrote:
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
yes, have beat on
god enough this past week. feel better
now. still
thinking of his
words, though, remembering how they touched me.
Grateful
to Diane for her
consistent clarifications, my feeble replies, and the many
friends I've
discovered in the process. but yes,
enough. the seven days
are up. but for the inspiration, the edge he
provided,
:-)
<<god>>
well, you know
what I mean. thank you.
> mc
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:05:56 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Bruce W.
Hartman, Jr. wrote:
> >
> > Beat
Friends & Philosophers:
> >
> > What's the problem, Maya? How can he be such a bastard if he really
> >
exists? The problem, as I see it, is
simple: too many people claim to
> > have
the goods on him, yet no one lives like they do. . .
> > A few posts ago, someone (forgive me, my itchy
delete finger got the
best
> > of me)
said our buddy Nietzche proved him dead a long time ago, well, I did
> > read
the book, and Nietzche did no such proving.
All Nietzche did was make
> > a
declaration and then live by it. I wish
more people would do the same,
> >
meaning, I wish people would say something and then live up to it.
> > I can think of plenty of things that
get too much play, but God or
the
> > lack of
(in whatever form he/she does/doesn't exist) should be talked about
> > a hell
of a lot more than it is, especially here.
> > Who gives a shit what does or doesn't
make a poet. We'll sit here
till
> > the
cows come home debating that one, but God, well now, he gets too much
> > intime
on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about him anymore. Fuck that.
> >
> >
Thinking himself SO DEEP,
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > ... Sin
strongly.
> > --Martin Luther
> well
actually i give a shit what makes a poet
and i don't give a shit
> about the
christian god concept except possibly as something to compare
> to other, to
my eyes, more benign dieties and fables, and i was really
> bored while
deleting a lot of the recent posts which isn't that big a
> deal but if
you need to talk about god a whole lot may a special god
> list, i
really enjoy talking about beat literatures, characters,
> folklore and
related items.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:17:26 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Pulse interview (UNCENSORED)
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PULSE MAGAZINE / HOLLY DAY INTERVIEWS RICHARD D. HOUFF/ June 6, 1997
HOLLY: Names of books you've written/published.
RICHARD: The first actual collection of poems that was
published in
book form, was
called: "IF IT SHOULD RAIN," which had a page count of
120. The two
follow-up collections: "STREET POEMS" / & "STATION 62"
were
released as a two
volume package consisting of 248 pages. All three
books were
published in France by Louis Giroux Editions, of Paris, a now
defunct
publishing house. Some of the poems from "STREET," were
bootlegged into
the former Soviet Union, along with
excerpts from a
novel I wrote
back in the '70's, called "TRIP: AN LSD ADVENTURE." The
novel, was also
published in France under the Giroux imprint and became
an underground
mainstay for a number of years. The nice thing about
choosing Europe
as a publishing venture came about through friends who
for whatever
reason, remained in Europe because of the literary
community. The
media and the age of electronics was in its infancy
state. In other
words people still purchased and read books versus the
latest video game
or tickets to "Disney World." Europe was still a clean
place to publish=97of
course that is rapidly changing, the "Golden Arches=
"
mentality has
arrived so it's only a matter of time. I got involved at a
good time and I'm
thankful. During the 80's I was submitting to European
mags almost
exclusively and several volumes of short stories were
published at this
time. Having established somewhat of a track record
"over
there," I decided to try my hand at submitting manuscripts on
American soil and
have had 4 volumes of poetry published: "AFTER HOURS,"
was a cooperative
venture with Poor People & Poets Press, of Chicago=97no=
w
defunct,
"PERPLEXITIES OF TAKING ALTERNATE ROUTES," was published in a
cheap edition
from Bootleg Press, and wasn't one of my best efforts. A
failure in
experimentation is what I would call it at this point. My
next book
"USED SHOES" from Roving Anvil Press was a real success story
for me, and the
response was very positive. Tom Clark, passed it around
Berkeley and
faculty at New College, and was very supportive. For
poetry, three
printings is=97and was quite remarkable. My Latest book
Exit(s) has been
well received on the W. Coast as well=97but it won't
enjoy three
printings I'm sure. Outside of the above, there have been 12
or 14 chaps
published that I really don't count. At best, you give them
away for free.
I've never taken them seriously unless they're hand
stitched and
letter- press quality=97I only have a few that fit that mold.
HOLLY: When did you start writing seriously (not
necessarily
professionally)
and what prompted you to start?
RICHARD: Back in '67 (Summer Of Love) I started
writing small poems and
journal entries.
I was a hungry kid living in one dollar a night hotels
in and around
downtown Mpls. Many of them=97if not all, have been knocked
down=97fewer
places for the homeless to call home. At the time, I=20
was damn glad to
have a roof over my head. What prompted me to become a
writer was the
City Lights edition of Kenneth Patchen's, "Love Poems." A
childhood friend,
Roger Kiemele put it in my hands back in '64 or
'65=97can't
remember. All I know, is that I could sense and feel Patchen'=
s
love and his
rage. I could identify with his poverty and felt alone in
an adult world
where I was the enemy. Sometimes, I still feel this
way=97especially
around suits and ties, a general mistrust.
HOLLY: When did you start getting your writing
published, and what
prompted you to
do so? Did you know any other people at the time
publishing their
work that might have influenced you to do so?
RICHARD: My first
published piece was a small poem back in '67. I think
Cid Corman picked
it up for Origin. When I was a kid, I never thought of
keeping records.
I was more concerned about making some money. Survival
was for whatever
reason, an important fact of life for me. Beneath the
"Reichean
body armor," there was a hopeless romantic that wanted out.
Maybe that would
explain the importance of survival=97curiosity? At the
time, I was
really afraid to let people know that I was writing at
all=97and
especially poetry. The middle sixties was divided into camps an=
d
kids still used
their fists to settle up. If I would've even hinted
poetry, rest
assured, my face would've been pounded
with faggot
accusations
coming from all sides. I left home for good when I was 15
yrs old and never
looked back. In answer to your question of what the
motivating factor
of getting work published was=97for me, at that time
was/and still is
quite complex. The need to connect was always a factor
and making some
"quick" money. You sell a story=97you eat and keep your
head above water.
=20
HOLLY: Who/what have been some of the major
influences in your life?
When I was 13 yrs
old, I read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Coming
from a small
slaughterhouse town, this single book completely altered my
life for the
better=97one of the main reasons for leaving home. Reading
"Hunger"
by Knut Hamsun, Sherwood Anderson, Richard Wright, and
Steinbeck were
all childhood influences. I was a voracious reader=97a
habit that's still with me. Discovering the 19 th.
C. French romantics
was a breath of
fresh air that kept my sanity in-check. Of course,
loosing it with
Apollinaire, Breton, Cendrars, Celine, and the endless
list wasn't half
bad. A lot of people seem to think Bukowski was an
influence on my
later stages of development which isn't the case. Buk
was an early
friend from '69 up till his death. We were being published
in the same
mimeos in and around L.A. I was writing
juvenile articles
on the joys of
doing acid and would sign a different name each week.
When we first met
he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
After awhile, I
would show up at his place (usually stoned) with some
beer. He would
drink it and then throw me out. I would just laugh and
eventually we became
friends=97a very slow process, I might add. When Cit=
y
Lights released
Charles Plymell's, "The Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
was totally blown
away. Here was a man that spoke to my soul and had
been thru similar
hells. It was like discovering the "big brother" I
always wanted. I
met Allen Ginsberg in '72, and he turned me onto some
of the Beat
writers, but I always returned to Plymell as a Beat
source=97he had
the edge that seemed to be lacking in other writers at th=
e
time.
HOLLY: What was the stupidest thing (or one of the
stupidest things)
you ever did?
RICHARD: Growing up poor had its disadvantages and
advantages. If you
wanted to look
nice, have a set of wheels, money, and the other niceties
denied to the
poor; you became a thief. In our town you could work like
a dog for shitty
wages=97not counting the abuse from "the Boss," and the
community in
general; or you could just say fuck-it and skim from the
top. We had a
code of honor: "Never steal from the poor working stiff or
your own
neighborhood. Steal from the rich and spread the booty ala
Robin Hood, and
keep the rest!" Okay, now that I've justified my devious
ways=97here goes:
The stupidest thing I did was get talked into breaking
into a farm
implements store and using a 1954 Ford, Flathead 6 cylinder,
3 speed manual
with a top-end of only 60 miles per hour, as the getaway
car. The car
belonged to my older brother and we had switched the
license plates
(the only smart thing we did). To make a long story
short, we botched
the job and we were chased by an Iowan constable
driving a pickup
on gravel roads. Being country, all us kids had
shotguns and
squirrel rifles. I happened to have a 16 gauge in the back
so I shot the
guys radiator and that was the end of the chase. We made
it across the
border into Minnesota and hid the car in a friends garage.
I wasn't
concerned about the guy being hurt; I knew that he would be
okay. What
bothered me was the fact that I pulled a gun on a cop and
could've landed
in some major trouble. Now that would qualify me as a
stupid
bastard=97live and learn. I wised up with time, but the kids with
me on that night
would be dead within several years of that particular
incident. I guess
they didn't learn.
HOLLY: Have you ever been hit so hard you shit
yourself (standard
question I
ask=97just to see if anyone else has had this experience)?
RICHARD: I have taken many blows in my time and delved
out as much and
then some. I have
been knocked off my feet twice; once by a refrigerator
door, and once by
a guys fist. I've been told that the guy who put me
down stood at
6'10 with a weight of 300 or more pounds=97no fat. I can't
remember much
about the incident other than 3 weeks after the fact
someone had put a
bullet thru his head. Apparently, he bullied the wrong
guy. They say
that he liked picking out the "intoxicated" for punching
bag practice.
However, in answer to your question about shitting my
pants, it hasn't
happened as yet.
HOLLY: Anything else you might like to add, maybe a
pitch for Heeltap
or your
anthology?
RICHARD: Well, I am happy to report that the first
issue of Heeltap
sold out before
it hit the shelves. I distributed nationally and the
reviews are still
rolling along with some excellent feedback. "Scorched
Hands: An
Anthology Of Verse & Rage," took a year to complete. I
assembled five to
six generations of poets from all walks of life, and
threw them under
the same cover. From the well known to the obscure=97and
it worked! I was
able to recover costs without shelf sales, and to date;
have sold over a
thousand copies. Shelf sales on the W. Coast and E.
Coast have been
steady, and you can obtain copies off the web as well at
various book
sites. I haven't distributed on the local level. Locally,
the buying public
has a rather conservative majority especially in
regards to
poetry. However, if people are interested in obtaining a
copy, it can be
ordered thru your local independent booksellers=97not too
many of them
left. I would also like to point out, this work is
uncensored as is
all Pariah Press titles=97including the magazine Heeltap.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:18:54 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
> literature.
> C. Plymell
Hell Charles,
they don't read it, they burn it. I
often why I keep
hanging on to
this religion. I mean, ask what's her
name in Alexandria.
They burned her
library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
Christians just
don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
I hope my church
never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
uneasy truce at
best.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:18:42 -0000
Reply-To: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
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> > well
actually i give a shit what makes a poet
and i don't give a shit
> > about
the christian god concept except possibly as something to compare
> > to
other, to my eyes, more benign dieties and fables, and i was really
> > bored
while deleting a lot of the recent posts which isn't that big a
> > deal
but if you need to talk about god a whole lot may a special god
> > list, i
really enjoy talking about beat literatures, characters,
> >
folklore and related items.
Patricia, and
other Beat Friends,
Why do you assume that my god is the
hell-fire and brimstone god of
Christian
lore? To be honest, I haven't got a
clue. . . I've been pelted
with every image
imaginable, two or three time over, and each time I find
something I
detest about each one. I'm sick and
tired of the fast-food
style of
spirituality that people seem to believe in nowadays. . .
"I'll have a god combo number two,
hold the pickle and the commitment."
"Would you like a hot apple pie
with that, sir?"
I can just write off the almighty like
the few of you would like me to. I
can't believe
there's no room for god (or your preferred moniker here) on
the Beat-L. What about the spiritual side of the
Beats? Jack spent a good
part of his life
either running to find god, or running away from him once
he found him.
Suddenly I'm talking about god a whole
lot. . . I don't think so. Since
when does a post
asking for clarification of a statement like "god has been
proven dead"
constitute "a whole lot"?
Spare ME.
Go ahead, hit me with the stand-by:
"Spirituality is relative. . ." so
what's the point
of me going on about it here? I'm tired
of relativity,
relativity is
bullshit, relativity is an excuse people use so they don't
have to confront
whatever it is they think is so damn relative.
If you don't like what I have to say,
use the delete button. . .
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:18:52 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: tying it all together
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Hello again.
This discussion
list is wonderfull. I've been on many a
mailing list
only to see it
destroyed by ignorance and I'm excited to see the level of
intelligent
conversation here!
Many of you have
asked, "how can science be disproven?"
For example...
the earth is not flat -- easy
but do you know
that many of Newton's 'LAWS' of physics only apply to a
limited number of
constants and that they are innaccurate in others...
that's where we
get the genius of Einstein who was so nice as to fill in
the blanks.
Science is just
another way man can justify things he can't honestly
explain. Just like many religions. The problem with science and
religion (GOD) is
that the fundamental basics are unexplainable and
beyond
comprehension... hell, most of the time they are based on guesses
or less.
****************
>Who puts the
poem or prose to the true test--
>is it
art? The reader, the critic, the writer?
>DC
While I believe
there are some mystical qualifications for being a poet,
it doesn't take
much to become a critic. The basic act
of breathing once
released from the
womb qualifies, I think... Beats, especially Ginsberg,
Kerouac and
Ferlinghetti really challenged the question of "what is art?"
Allen Ginsberg,
as you know, faced art v. obscenity -- along with
Ferlinghetti, but
also re-opened art in literature for many people. For
so long American
writing has been stale and without vision!
Allen
Ginsberg is the
atomic bomb at the center of it all.
Quote me on that...
Allen Ginsberg
scared people -- he made them think
Ginsberg forced
you to experience life rather than walk
the planet in
shell of flesh
waiting to die.
Atomic Allen
Ginsberg, unlike his nuclear Russia, exploded!
I know why Allen
Ginsberg loved Walt Whitman. They both
loved life.
They injected
life into poetry and made it beautiful again.
Poets to Come
- Walt Whitman
"Poets to
come! orators, singers, musicians to come!
Not to-day is to
justify me and answer what I am for,
But you, a new
brood, native, athletic, continental, greater than before
known,
Arouse! For you must justify me.
I myself but
write one or two indicative words for the future,
I but advance a
moment only to wheel and hurry back in the darkness.
I am a man who,
sauntering along without fully stopping, turns a casual
look upon you and then averts his face,
Leaving it to you
to prove and define it,
Expecting the
main things from you."
Walt Whitman...
the granddaddy-beat. These men injected
innovation into
a tired system of
unmotivated and unchanging FORMS. Life
without
innovation is
worthless!!!! Ferlinghetti with the unorthodox spatiality
of poetry and
lord, the SUBJECTS are divine. Jack with
a real story to
read... who cares
about CONVENTIONS?! and beatific Allen raining life,
pride and love on
all of us.
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:49:32 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Names(was notice to all
beetles)
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> According to his journals and a
>poem in
'Richmond Hill Blues'(1953), Kerouac noticed a story in the
>Lowell Sun
about a local man named 'Daoulas,' and he later played around
>with several
variations on it, like 'Dalouas,' 'Dalous,' and 'Duouoiz,'
>before
settling on 'Duluoz.'"
>DC
Or it could be
French/Canadian for 'Jack the Louse'
I honestly don't
think Jack put too terribly much thought into selection
of names for
characters. Gregory Corso = Raphael
Urso... It seems to me
like he used real
names to inspire alias and nothing else... Desolation
Angels makes that
pretty clear to me, but I'd be interested in hearing
more about 'Sal
Paradise'
BTW Was Memere's
maiden name Rioux?? My grandmother's maiden name is
Rioux. If anyone with Kerouac geneology info could
email me, I'd
appreciate it.
Very rooted in
frenchcanadiannortheast,
Chris Dumond.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:08:51 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic <ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: chicago
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hi everybody,
i'm travelling to
chicago this week (won't you please come to chicago noone
else can take
your place - C,S,N&Y). i've never been there. is there
something really
worth doing there?
also, where can i
find the recordings of the poetry readings by kerouac and
ginsberg?
thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:15:11 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: tying it all together
In-Reply-To: <33B6A70C.7C56@erols.com>
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At 11:18 AM -0700
6/29/97, Walt Whitman wrote:
> I myself but
write one or two indicative words for the future,
> I but
advance a moment only to wheel and hurry back in the darkness.
> I am a man
who, sauntering along without fully stopping, turns a casual
> look upon you and then averts his
face,
> Leaving it
to you to prove and define it,
> Expecting
the main things from you."
<<lurker
mode on>> Douglas <<keep up
good work!!>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just keep
it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:18:11 -0500
Reply-To: Leo Jilk <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leo Jilk <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <33B7259E.5EC0596B@scsn.net>
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>Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>>
>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>
literature.
>> C.
Plymell
>Hell Charles,
they don't read it, they burn it. I
often why I keep
>hanging on to
this religion. I mean, ask what's her
name in Alexandria.
>They burned
her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>I hope my church
never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>uneasy truce
at best.
>
Thinking of
holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
behind.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:56:19 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Whitman
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Chris wrote:
> Walt
Whitman... the granddaddy-beat.
Reading
"Leaves of Grass" is like reading the Baghavad-Gita. However,
much of his
democratic optimism and lust for future potential has been
brought down by
20th century reality. That's o.k. - all the more reason
to read more
Whitman. Poems to read: "Song of Myself" - "Song of the
Open Road" -
"I Sing the Body Electric" - etc.
Here's a short
piece that i use, written by the Good Grey Poet:
TO YOU [line
structure may be off]
Stranger, if you
passing meet me desire to speak to me
why should you
not speak to me?
and why should I
not speak to you?
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:19:59 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<poetry
provides many answers>>
Diane, gave away
my di prima book, so instead I have patti smith.
hopefully she
will pass this list's beat test.
<<and who's Anne Sexton??>>
from "babel" I randomly turn to
page .... 89/90.
judith revisited
(fragments)
the ladies room
is ravaged
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
parts i. ---->
iv. <<snipped>>
v.
oh jesus write it
out of your body patti. wait wait all
night. weary day.
is snow too
romantic? we could do it in the
snow. washing your hair.
bending over the
tub. running my soapy forefinger down your spine. you on
your knees bent
over the tub. your breasts out of shape
swaying like two
golden
bells. i'm the gardener you're the lady
chatterly. i stand up. turn
around and suck
my my dick.
washing your
hair. maybe too romantic. so what clock. i imagine you on the
nile. that neck
of yours enough to make Nefertiti blush [[english
patient??]]. the delicious white slump of your shoulder
after lovemaking
after
love it wears off
[[can the same be said of god?]] there's grass stains on
your dress [[whitman?]].
we are nearly finished. a cold july with her. in
her sunsuit. her
fleshy legs. when I press my thumb
against it makes a
white mark. the powder on her wrist. how she never
removes her heavy
bracelets
(african) even to make love. her ballet scar. all things pure.
human? no mam. go away from them. mistress is
gelatin. atom.
she's a football
player. one night. [[i.e., with Tom Verlaine]]. no its
dusk. in back of
the bleachers. blondest sweetest football virgin. hardon
softest leather
buttocks. lick it up her delicious teen-age sweat
[[Ginsberg??]]
show her how. make her again. leave her
dazed confused
exhausted defiled
spidered black as coal. oooy-gooey all over her high
school letter.
kick her in the side. in the ear. words pour
i leave you
laying there. i am intact. and i don't care
(rimbaud)
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:40:46 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: Re: Whitman
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"Camarado,
this is not a
book!
Who touches this,
touches the man."
(i don't
presently have the book with me, so the quote isn't accurate. the
point, however,
is the same)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:51:45 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the beat (en) horse/summer reading update
In-Reply-To: <33B615BE.2AA5@together.net>
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>> lets get
off all this personal crap and in front of god and all,
was my reference
to god. i was saying that god/goddesses exist -if only in
the minds of the
believers and also reigns high in the ranks of the
existentialists,
who need him/her if only to not believe.
no argument
here. just up to
my ear lobes in it all
yes, there is a
drive toward immortality which may fuel some(most?)
writers, but it ,
ok. this was not
meant to be a flame.
now instead of
reading about everyones personal reactions to or negating of
god,
let's talk about
the literature.
i just finished
feat&loathing in Los vegas;
have started
reading hell's angels
but then i was
waylaid by bob kaufman: out of sheer delight, but i seem to
have misplaced
him,
so its back on
the harley for me
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:47:36 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In a message
dated 97-06-29 19:52:22 EDT, you write:
<< but God,
well now, he gets too much
time on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about
him anymore. Fuck that.
Thinking himself SO DEEP,
Bruce
>>
I'm sorry about
my careless post. But I guess I'm modest
and don't like all
the attention i
was receiving with everyone talking about Me and everything.
By the way, I'm a woman.
------maya
(kidding)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:01:32 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
<much
laughter>
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Maya Gorton
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:47 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
In a message
dated 97-06-29 19:52:22 EDT, you write:
<< but God,
well now, he gets too much
time on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about
him anymore. Fuck that.
Thinking himself SO DEEP,
Bruce
>>
I'm sorry about
my careless post. But I guess I'm modest
and don't like all
the attention i
was receiving with everyone talking about Me and everything.
By the way, I'm a woman.
------maya
(kidding)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:22:28 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
In-Reply-To: <33B5389B.5D9A412C@scsn.net>
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On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Burning in
Water, Drowning in Flame
My first
introduction to his poetry and to Buk in general). You're right,
this one's great.
Sometimes I OD on him when I read a whole bookfull of his
poetry once but
man he's damn good. Just small little honest snippets of
life, lined up in
a simple column all lower case ... he makes it look so
easy to write
great poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:33:19 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
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>runner711
wrote:
>
>
<<poetry provides many answers>>
If poetry
provides the answers, who asks the question?
The poet? Ah,
sorry folks,
won't follow that line of line of thought any farther...
> Diane, gave
away my di prima book, so instead I have patti smith.
> hopefully
she will pass this list's beat test.
<<and who's Anne
>Sexton??>>
Ginsberg
performed with patti smith several times, I believe. Befriended
her when she
needed a friend. Certainly appropriate
for beat-l
discussion. As for Anne Sexton, poet, this century, often
labeled
confessional,
nothing redemptive in the confessional aspect, committed
suicide, and, I
find, as I grab up my copy of the New Oxford Book of
American Verse,
to find her dates, she's not even there.
> from "babel" I randomly turn to
page .... 89/90.
>
> judith
revisited (fragments)
> the ladies
room is ravaged
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
>
> parts i.
----> iv. <<snipped>> part V <<snipped for brevity of
response>>
I find you are
keying in now on the Ginsberg everything is holy theme,
but am I finding
you still thinking Breton's "Beauty is repulsive," (not
sexually), as you
are reading/typing? I'm most moved by
the paradox at
the end: "I
leave you laying there. I am
intact..." It's all a paradox,
Douglas,
beginning with your random selection of this patti smith. beauty
is a paradox,
Babble, a paradox. As Ginsberg would
say, what is beauty
but a six letter
word? Babble, but a six letter word. And
only a stream
of archeytpal
consciousness bringing it all here to this point where our
minds meet.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:43:16 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
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>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> now instead
of reading about everyones personal reactions to or
> negating of
> god,
> let's talk
about the literature.
>
> i just
finished feat&loathing in Los vegas;
> have started
reading hell's angels
> but then i
was waylaid by bob kaufman: out of sheer delight, but i seem to
> have misplaced
him,
> so its back
on the harley for me
> mc
Can some of us
wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
other writers we
are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
going at the same
time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
Cody.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:37:41 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac Names(was notice to all
beetles)
Comments: To:
dumo13@EROLS.COM
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BTW Was Memere's
maiden name Rioux?? My grandmother's maiden name is
Rioux. If anyone with Kerouac geneology info could
email me, I'd
appreciate it.
If'n memory serves (and it may not always)
her maiden name was
Levesque (or some similar such
spelling)--or am I quoting of a
fictional name?
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:49:30 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706300303490513@msn.com>
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An elastic
stretch on this thread--.
An article in the
daily waterpump the other day told of a cloth bracelet
some christian
group is selling. It has WWJD woven into it which means What
Would Jesus Do.
Story tells that they can't make them fast enough to fill
the orders. A hot
money-maker.
I was reminded of
a theology course I sat in on at the University of Iowa
many years ago. I
think it was a Forrell course. He urged the students to
read a book
titled IN HIS SHOES. Briefly, the
minister of an affluent
mainline church
asks congregants if they will join him in an experiement.
Before making
decisions they would ask themselves "What would Jesus do?" It
goes on to tell
the story of how the participant's lives were
affected--some
very dramatically. It was a turn of the century setting, but
some of the
characters (as I recall) ended up very Beat-like.
The book was
powerfully Communistic without mentioning politics. But what
stunned me was
finding out that the book had sold over 25 million copies
(over 25 years
ago) and I'd never seen it on any list of best sellers, nor
heard of it.
Suddenly, along
come some jack-leg christians, ripping off an authors basic
idea and never
mentioning where they got the idea. Out of curiosity, to
what degree(if
any) is this author's estate being
ripped off.
j grant
>This is
true.... but are you assuming that cuz we're talkin bout god that it's
>the
simplistic Biblical one? I for one can't
accept that one dimensional
>model... However, I have known Christians who do read
and have a much more
>expanded view
on this subject than the sheep-like majority...
>
>Ciao,
>Sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
>Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 7:38 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: spare us
>
>Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>literature.
>C. Plymell
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
372,191
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:54:13 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: tying it all together
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>Chris Dumond
wrote:
>
> Allen
> Ginsberg is
the atomic bomb at the center of it all.
Quote me on
> that...
> Allen
Ginsberg scared people -- he made them think
> Ginsberg
forced you to experience life rather
than walk the planet in
> shell of
flesh waiting to die.
> Atomic Allen
Ginsberg, unlike his nuclear Russia, exploded!
> I know why
Allen Ginsberg loved Walt Whitman. They
both loved life.
> They
injected life into poetry and made it beautiful again.
Nothing but total
agreement from me here. Image of atomic
bomb/fear is
an excellent one!
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:58:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
In-Reply-To: <33B75584.3415@together.net>
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>
>Can some of
us wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
>of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
>other writers
we are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
>going at the
same time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
>gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>Cody.
>DC
@@@@@@@
i'm up for it.
one of my favorites, and reads really well with cassady's
the first third,
which tells frankly, and in my opinion, beautifully, of
his early
childhood on the street with father.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:10:50 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To: Leo
Jilk <ljilk@mail.mps.org>
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At 12:18 AM
6/30/97 -0500, Leo Jilk wrote:
>>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>>
>>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>>
literature.
>>> C.
Plymell
>>Hell
Charles, they don't read it, they burn it.
I often why I keep
>>hanging
on to this religion. I mean, ask what's
her name in Alexandria.
>>They
burned her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>>uneasy
truce at best.
>>
>Thinking of
holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
>behind.
>-leo
>
>
I don't know how
much this is relating to the subject, but I just
read(couple days
ago) that In Oklahoma, a judge ruled a 1979 award winning
film
"obscene." Then, after the
ruling, law enforcement officials tracked
down EVERY SINGLE
copy of the film that they could get their hands on in
the state! One guy recalls sitting down to watch it, and
all of a sudden,
he hears a knock
on his door. Sure enough, the police
were waiting there,
because they had
gotten his name from a local video rental store, which
said that he had
rented it! Oh, the reason the film was
obscene was
because it showed
a minor partaking in some kind of sex act.
The film
itself dealt with
the holocaust.
If they can
"take away" this film, they can definately take away _Naked
Lunch_(the book).
ge elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:21:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-29 19:52:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << but
God, well now, he gets too much
> time on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about
him anymore. Fuck that.
>
> Thinking himself SO DEEP,
>
> Bruce
> >>
>
> I'm sorry
about my careless post. But I guess I'm
modest and don't like all
> the
attention i was receiving with everyone talking about Me and everything.
> By the way, I'm a woman.
> ------maya
(kidding)
All hail the
triple goddess, or some such said Robert Graves. I am she,
as you are she,
as you are me, as we are all together, or some such said
John Lennon. Daddy, what is God like, I have started to
forget what she
was like when I
was in heaven, or some such said Sarah Catherine Kirby,
age 6. Maya, watch out, you might be more correct
than you realize.
But, my question,
are you the comely lass, the mature woman, or the olde
crone?
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:32:01 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To: jo
grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
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jo grant wrote:
>
> An elastic
stretch on this thread--.
>
> An article
in the daily waterpump the other day told of a cloth bracelet
> some
christian group is selling. It has WWJD woven into it which means What
> Would Jesus
Do. Story tells that they can't make them fast enough to fill
> the orders.
A hot money-maker.
>
> I was
reminded of a theology course I sat in on at the University of Iowa
> many years
ago. I think it was a Forrell course. He urged the students to
> read a book
titled IN HIS SHOES. Briefly, the
minister of an affluent
> mainline
church asks congregants if they will join him in an experiement.
> Before
making decisions they would ask themselves "What would Jesus do?" It
> goes on to
tell the story of how the participant's lives were
>
affected--some very dramatically. It was a turn of the century setting, but
> some of the
characters (as I recall) ended up very Beat-like.
>
> The book was
powerfully Communistic without mentioning politics. But what
> stunned me
was finding out that the book had sold over 25 million copies
> (over 25
years ago) and I'd never seen it on any list of best sellers, nor
> heard of it.
>
> Suddenly,
along come some jack-leg christians, ripping off an authors basic
> idea and
never mentioning where they got the idea. Out of curiosity, to
> what
degree(if any) is this author's estate
being ripped off.
>
> j grant
Jo, actually, I
have a copy of the book and if I can find it will let
you know any
information that is on the title page.
It was a good book,
but a writer from
Chicago wrote a better one in that line called Tell No
Man. Down here in SC, when a minister opens up the
doors of the church
to prostitutes
and the homeless, not to mention AIDS, we fire them in a
hurry. The Rev. Will B. Dunn in Kudzu is based upon
a Baptist Minister
in NC that cared
too much about reality and was defrocked.
The
established
Church is about wordly power, and God as
we call it is
another.
My point in
another post was that Kerouac and others were driven by a
sense of death,
doom, and what the "answer" was.
They looked to "God"?
or what. What should we look to? Our collective selves, our
"beat-l"?
I agree with Maya
that discussion of "God" can be very sophmoric. I
agree with Marie
that it is easy to get off the literature track. So,
what do we talk
about then. If we are going to discuss
Kerouac, I vote
for Pic.
How about
Ferlingetti's (sp?) new book. That is a
damn good book of
poems. Anybody read it?
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:44:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Visionaries (Eliot/Ginsberg again, for
Michael Skau & et al)
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Now that I've
reread some Eliot, I am ready to address a few points from
earlier
Eliot/visionary discussion.
I think there
needs to be a distinction between a poet that writes
symbolically and
a visionary. Eliot is really
depressing. Eliot saw
what was wrong,
spiritually, but accepted "death-in-life,"
(Prufrock)
"Do I dare
disturb the universe?"
"I am no
prophet--and there's no great matter;
I have seen the
moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen
the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker.
And in short, I
was afraid."
Eliot saw the
vision, saw what was necessary to do, but could not rise to
the task. The visionary poet must in some meaning of
the term, be a
prophet, rail
against the status quo, and in doing so put forth a his own
positive vision of
what is possible. He must as Chris
Dumond, so
articulately put,
in another post about Ginsberg, "[rain] life, pride,
and love on us
all." Blake took the work of other
writers, like Milton,
and put his
vision over their's in a way that spread out, and widened,
set up his own
system, of what was and what could be.
The hope in the
Wasteland is faint, really faint, the sound of thunder
there but not
resonant, not awakening, at least not yet.
The grass is
singing but it is
not fully alive. Not in the way Whitman
or Ginsberg
sang or were
fully alive. A visionary says "this
is what I see" and
projects his
vision out there, loudly.
Eliot writes,
"No! I am
not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant
lord, one that will do
To swell a
progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the
prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad
to be of use,
Politic,
cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high
sentence, but a bit obtuse"
Eliot used
symbols well, layering in metaphoric and metaphysical
dimensions, the
fire and rose are one, even cyclic sometimes in his view
of words and
history, but often his words are devoid of power, the power
to change, to do
anymore than accept his lot. A true
visionary
transforms
experience, their experience and our experience. In Howl,
Ginsberg raged
against America, but he also saw the possibility for the
hope that rises
up in our humanness. Eliot is not
grasping upon the
mermaid, rising
with her cutching rebirth, he is looking at it from afar.
I would describe his voice not so much as a
visionary one as one that
saw what was
possible, but was unable to grasp whatever he needed to
transcend his
condition.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:11:29 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <33B7259E.5EC0596B@scsn.net>
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Bentz,
I think it was
the the Vandals who were responsible for buring the greatest
library of that
age. Men ran the library ballgame in those days and they
all fled. It was
a woman who tried to reason with the Vandals (as I recall)
and failed. I've
tried to find the folder with the research material but
it's packed
someplace. When I come across it I'll share the sources.
There are so many
instances of christians burning books tho, that you may
have the wrong yo
yo, but you've certainly got the right string
j grant
>Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>>
>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>
literature.
>> C.
Plymell
>Hell Charles,
they don't read it, they burn it. I
often why I keep
>hanging on to
this religion. I mean, ask what's her
name in Alexandria.
>They burned
her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>uneasy truce
at best.
>
>Peace,
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
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Small Press Authors & publishers
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313,599 visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:28:55 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: > blade of grass <<was:
ok, perhaps>>
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<<digging
thru my exceeded mailbox space>>
Shari writ:
><<blade
of grass. What we don't know is what god
is. Perhaps the whole
>notion of it
is that s/he/it cannot be defined by humankind, because we, as a
>part of god,
cannot fully experience the whole and, therefore, can only
speculate based
on that portion of god which we can.>>
yes and we must
talk about the "portions of god we can see". Not just
relegate him to a
three letter word. granted that's what
he is. but
>still...
<<you know what I mean>>
>
><<This
is of course necessarily truncated, and barely scratches the surface,
but hopefully you
can read between the lines.>>
yes, I've think
I've fallen in a couple. my couch last
night seemed to
>have a few. <<or perhaps that was the
cat???>> ;-)
>
><<Btw,
has anyone suggested a Beat chat room... would be alot easier to
discuss some of
this stuff that way and a hell of alot more fun.>>
yes, and it would
get us youngsters [freshmen] out of your hair, too!!!
><<laugh>>
>
><<Ciao,
Sherri
love_singing@msn.com>>
>cheers,
Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:27:01 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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Thanks Jo, and
yes=97the town is Austin. Ever been there? It's a crazy
place I've
managed to avoid. You don't see Hamsun's name come up to
often. It's like
the other day, I had one of James Tate's grad students
at my place and
he selected some books off the shelf: Maurice
Maeterlinck,
Count Herman Keyserling, and Hamsun's "PAN" with a look
of confusion he
asked me if he could borrow them, and that he wasn't
aware of them or
the authors. I let him borrow "PAN," I thought that
was a good choice.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:35:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: God
<<still digging>>
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<<still
digging thru the beat backlog at work>>
Joseph Neudorfer
writ
><< [ = there is nothing holding us back
from knowing all, but there is
>no
>physical
possibility of reaching that 'all-knowledge', you would soon
>swim in
insanity . . . hense Jehovah is crazy . . . that is why even
>Moses, the
figure who was in Yahweh's presence, was not actually face to
>face. When
Moses asked Yahweh to reveal himself (one of the many times
>on the
mountains, after the burning bush), Yahweh only permitted Moses
>to observe
his back and shoulders - which on one level is a paradox in
itself.>>
and is this why
Andre Breton says "beauty must be repulsive"?? To reach
'all-beauty'
would one soon be repulsed by everything??
and where to go
from there? back down the mountain?? [[please don't let me ask about
the "burning
bush" in this context, please don't let me ask, please...
<<laughing>>
Still wish you
would explain that Yahweh/Moses ---> back/shoulders
paradox. Maybe Yahweh was an ugly mofo, having a
badhair day, and just
decided to be
shy? somewhat kidding, but curious <<answer via
>backchannel
if necessary>>
>
>> Joseph
Neudorfer
yours truly,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:35:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
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<<at work
now>>
Diane writ:
<<I find
you are keying in now on the Ginsberg everything is holy theme
>[[yes, thank
you]], but am I finding you still thinking Breton's "Beauty is
>repulsive,"
(not sexually), as you are reading/typing?
I'm most moved by the
>paradox at
>the end:
"I leave you laying there. I am
intact..." It's all a paradox,
>Douglas,
beginning with your random selection of this patti smith. beauty
>is a paradox,
Babble, a paradox. As Ginsberg would
say, what is beauty
>but a six
letter word? Babble, but a six letter word.
And only a stream
>of archeytpal
consciousness bringing it all here to this point where our
minds
meet.>>
ok. I'm a big fan
of the river. that much has been
proven. you could
turn the faucet
on and off, little or large all day long, as far as I
care. but words do have meanings. and I hate wasting water. can't
deny that. words have meanings that change, that must be
tracked, that
can be
appropriated. [[yes, therein lies the
paradox. Can we follow it
for a while?]]
what I love about
patti smith (especially her earlier work) is that she
rambles, she
brings in a beat train of thought. In
the work I quoted
(and the lines
you liked) she's taken the male point of view (possibly
Rimbaud's). taken it for a ride and seen what the
possibilities
provided
her. <<amazing>>
old hag, middle
aged hen, early cluck. all the same some
would say.
attitude is
everything. <<perhaps>> relativity does apply at a
certain
point. at the speed of light, I might
change into an old man,
flying back from
outer space; while you and yours remain the same.
<<einstein
proved that, yes?>> words may be
just a composite of
letters, counted
and mounted; but when words gain human attributes
(i.e.,
"nigger"), we must put our heads together on the wall, and
honestly talk
about what death and dying really mean.
the traces of
beauty we find in
the world, and yes indeed, if beauty is *truly*
repulsive. what would that mean? [[and I wonder how it *looks*,
surrealist or
not]]
I agree words can
be nothing/everything holy (as Ginsberg would
apparently
define), but I still must hold onto a societal view of
"beauty"
(and a few other choice words). beauty
needs to go for a ride
with me for a
while longer. this I must see. [[oh..exhale..]] why is
it so hard to
give up words? they answer so many
questions.
"what are words for, when nobody
listens any more for
[....] there's no use talking
all..." [missing persons]
>DC
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:36:48 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Thanks / BENTZ
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Thanks for the
kind words and the feelings mutual. If I ever make it
out to SC, I'll
look you up. And try putting down the poetry. When
I first started
writing I borrowed Andre Breton's method of automatic
writing=97I think
Jack K called it spontaneous prose or whatever. He
must've read
Breton at some point; Celine, etc.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:40:49 -0600
Reply-To: Denis Alcock <dalcock@FALSTAFF.UNM.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Denis Alcock
<dalcock@FALSTAFF.UNM.EDU>
Subject: summer reading
In-Reply-To: <33B7FCC0.4354@bitstream.net>
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I vote for Dr.
Sax!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:47:58 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: JAMES: FRISCO BOUND!
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Hey James,
I knew you'd dig
the gig! I'll be playing unplugged with him
on July 11. I'll
be using a vintage Circa 1937, Dobro and glass
slide-Luther will
play a Martin and fill in the lead. Unfortunately,
this concert will
probably take place in my living room. Luther loves
to fish with me
and his buddies=97we're both a couple of chicken and
fish eating
bastards!
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
P.S. Glad you
gotta chance to read the Pulse interview.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:52:15 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Whitman
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<<still
digging>>
>From: Ksenija
Simic[SMTP:ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU]
>
>"Camarado,
>this is not a
book!
>Who touches
this, touches the man."
Note to myself: explore book covers of beats. first editions ---->
etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
bind... ;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
Douglas <<obese in thought, thin on
restraint>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:49:40 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Goodbye (not forever)
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Hello,
I am writing
because I am leaving the list temporarily.
About three weeks
to be
precise. I'm going to France and Italy,
and I won't be able to check
e-mail, so I must
unsubscribe. This list is a lot of fun,
and very
informational. I've learned a great deal by just reading
what other people
wrote. I hope that when I come back that there will
be some good
discussion of
literature, because I see that's what's brewing right now.
Anyway, have fun
while I'm away!
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:03:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
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Marie responded
to Diane:
<<
>>gets the
most votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>>Cody.
>>DC
>@@@@@@@
>i'm up for
it. one of my favorites, and reads really well with cassady's
>the first
third, which tells frankly, and in my opinion, beautifully, of
his early
childhood on the street with father.
>>
Cool, don't know
this book (Visions of Cody) but from Marie's
description
[[early years, god, father, beauty, cassady, some guy named
>"frankly"]]
- sounds good to me. count my vote on
this one.
Can someone via
backchannel, please tell me how this relates to "On the
Road"? <<Chronologically, thematically,
etc...>>
>> mc
Douglas <<and what does the @@@@ translate to?
curious...>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:45:34 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Holy shit!!! Since when did a judge's ruling allow
confiscation... there's
certainly no
confiscation going on of hardcore porn, are the police within
their rights to
do this???? Ray Bradbury may have been a
prophet. [Thinking
of digging a huge hole in the basement,
installing shelves & putting my books
down there under
a hidden door.]
Thank god I live
in San Francisco...
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Greg Elwell
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:10 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
At 12:18 AM
6/30/97 -0500, Leo Jilk wrote:
>>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>>
>>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>>
literature.
>>> C.
Plymell
>>Hell
Charles, they don't read it, they burn it.
I often why I keep
>>hanging
on to this religion. I mean, ask what's
her name in Alexandria.
>>They
burned her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>>uneasy
truce at best.
>>
>Thinking of
holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
>behind.
>-leo
>
>
I don't know how
much this is relating to the subject, but I just
read(couple days
ago) that In Oklahoma, a judge ruled a 1979 award winning
film
"obscene." Then, after the
ruling, law enforcement officials tracked
down EVERY SINGLE
copy of the film that they could get their hands on in
the state! One guy recalls sitting down to watch it, and
all of a sudden,
he hears a knock
on his door. Sure enough, the police
were waiting there,
because they had
gotten his name from a local video rental store, which
said that he had
rented it! Oh, the reason the film was
obscene was
because it showed
a minor partaking in some kind of sex act.
The film
itself dealt with
the holocaust.
If they can
"take away" this film, they can definately take away _Naked
Lunch_(the book).
ge elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:47:24 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
I vote for
Desolation Angels, Dharma Bums or Big Sur...
would love to do
this. Great idea Diane.
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 11:43 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> now instead
of reading about everyones personal reactions to or
> negating of
> god,
> let's talk
about the literature.
>
> i just
finished feat&loathing in Los vegas;
> have started
reading hell's angels
> but then i
was waylaid by bob kaufman: out of sheer delight, but i seem to
> have
misplaced him,
> so its back
on the harley for me
> mc
Can some of us
wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
other writers we
are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
going at the same
time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
Cody.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:51:28 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: FW: please read this and vote
Comments: To:
Stef <Ad_Libitum@msn.com>, HJW II <ArchibaldLeach@msn.com>,
Stuart Crosby
<BRAVES10@msn.com>, Ron Vassel <BlizzardKing@msn.com>,
Michael Riddle
<CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com>,
Cari Who ELSE????
<CittiGirl@msn.com>, db <Dee-Bee@msn.com>,
Homebrook <Homebrook@msn.com>,
Jason Tinling <JTinlng@msn.com>,
Joseph L <JoePlacebo@msn.com>,
Kevin Mathers <KEVMATH@msn.com>,
Kel Rayner <Manatbar@msn.com>,
the little people
<MarmaladeSkies@msn.com>,
Kent <NoixDeGolf@msn.com>, Jim B
<PBRUEGEL@msn.com>,
Ask and I might tell you
<Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com>,
R <ROcean@msn.com>, Blair
<Reepoo@msn.com>,
James Sims <SimbaJim@msn.com>,
Sharon <SopAndBass@msn.com>,
Tom Gummo <TGUMMO@msn.com>,
Life is a sick joke and I'm the
punchline <The_Boogey_Man@msn.com>,
rico <UNIR1@msn.com>, Mark
<Vox_Amicus@msn.com>,
"e.e. cummings"
<What-is_death@msn.com>,
Tanya Ceccatto <_AngelBaby@msn.com>,
_Prometheus1
<_Prometheus1@msn.com>, S Johnson <doc11@msn.com>,
Drew Eskenazi
<drewesk@msn.com>, Robert Lear <king_lear1@msn.com>,
x <king_lear1@msn.com>, PAUL
KOLJESKI <koljeski@msn.com>,
Silver Surfer
<mad-chatter@msn.com>, david simoni <oak123@msn.com>,
Kash Philips
<philkash@msn.com>,
anthony osborne
<rastafarian@msn.com>,
Rico Mariani
<ricom_ms@msn.com>, Robert Eback <rleback@msn.com>,
Stephen Baldwin
<sabaldwin@msn.com>, anniepoo <annh@ccrtc.com>,
BigDaddyRico
<Engelsguy@aol.com>, Don Green <NYCDBG@aol.com>,
cj <sjohn111@aol.com>, Kent
Smedley <Kent.Smedley@clorox.com>,
THEBODYIS1@aol.com
This is
important, please take the time.
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: Jamey Sims
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:48 AM
To: 'sherry'; 'Dave'; 'jota'; 'Jacky';
'Sherri'; 'Stella'; 'Jennifer';
'Ralph'; 'David
Lang'; 'boyeeeeeee'; 'Suzie & Robert'; 'Gary'; 'The Lang
Gang'; 'Brandon
Wescott'; 'kevey'; 'Dr Cowan'; 'Renee'; 'bogie'; 'Tammy';
'Shari &
Troy'; 'Yvonne'
Subject: FW: please read this and vote
do this please
--Jamey
----------
From: Marrow
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 3:35 PM
To: Jamey Sims
Subject: please read this and vote
>From: Marrow
<mychajlo@pop.fast.net>
>Subject:
please read this and vote
>
>>From:
J_DRUCK@prodigy.com (MR JEFFREY L DRUCKENMILLER)
>>Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:39:12, -0500
>>To:
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com, mychajlo@fast.net
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>
>>for your
interest
>>
>>
>>
>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>
>>From: (Warshie) DIANNE WARSHAVER
>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>Date: 06/20
>>Time: 07:28 PM
>>
>>so, we
are never safe from crazies.....
>>
>>
>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>
>>From: David Blum
>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>Date: 06/20
>>Time: 06:55 PM
>>
>>Return-Path:
<davmark@mindspring.com>
>>Received:
from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com
>>[207.69.200.11])
>> by pimaia1w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id SAA106760
>> for <Warshie@prodigy.com>; Fri, 20
Jun 1997 18:56:48 -0400
>>Received:
from 38.26.20.135 (ip135.an9-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
>>[38.26.20.135])
>> by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id SAA03646;
>> Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:55:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>Message-ID:
<33AAC4FA.42EF@mindspring.com>
>>Date:
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:59:22 +0100
>>From:
David Blum <davmark@mindspring.com>
>>Reply-To:
davmark@mindspring.com
>>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
>>MIME-Version:
1.0
>>To:
"artworks@concentric.net" <artworks@concentric.net>,
>> "CHFriend@aol.com"
<CHFriend@aol.com>,
>> "joshperi@netvision.net.il"
<joshperi@netvision.net.il>,
>> MS DIANNE L WARSHAVER
<Warshie@prodigy.com>,
>> Sarah Barnett
<phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu>,
>> Steve Zuckerman <szucker@isd.net>,
>> "Susan E. Ranney"
<sranney@azstarnet.com>,
>> Suzie Dennis Ben David
<marketingedge@msn.com>,
>> "zin@juno.com"
<zin@juno.com>
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>>
>>>Forwarded
message:
>>>Subj: No Subject
>>>Date: 97-06-06 03:17:09 EDT
>>>From: Jonapangai
>>>To: CampNicole
>>>
>>>We
have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
>>>(again)
a usenet group where they want to keep in contact
>>>with
each other regarding their activities. I believe it is not
>>>necessary
to dwell further on these activities.
>>>
>>>The
group is rec.music.white-power
>>>
>>>To
create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is
>>>always
organised when a new usenet group is created.
>>>All
persons with an email address, and only those, can vote
>>>in
this referendum.
>>>
>>>It is
IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is
>>>cancelled.
>>>
>>>To
prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
>>>
>>> 1. Send this message to people you know
>>>
>>> 2. Send an email to the following address:
>>>
>>> music-vote@sub-rosa.com
>>>
>>> 3. In the body of your message (not in the
'subject' line)
>>> include EXACTLY and ONLY the following
line:
>>>
>>> I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>>>
>>>Since
the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the
>>>exact
line as it is given above, without adding anything, not even
>>a
>>>name.
>>>And
please send it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
>>>
>>>PLEASE FORWARD
>>>THIS
LETTER TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL ADDRESS TO
>>>PREVENT
THE GROUP FOUNDERS FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
>>>
>>>*********************************************
>>>
Israel Rubinstein
>>>
Professor of Chemistry
>>>
Department of Materials and Interfaces
>>>The
Weizmann Institute of Science
>>>
Rehovot 76100, Israel
>>>Phone:
+972 8 9342678 Fax: +972 8 9344137
>>> E-mail:
cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il
>>>http://www.weizmann.ac.il/weg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Gerardo
(Jerry) Rogoff
>>Field
Applications Engineer
>>Exar
Corporation
>>500 Clark
Rd.
>>Tewksbury,
MA 01876
>>
>>Tel.: (508) 640-8899
>>FAX: (508) 640-6926
>>Pager:
(800) 943-4064
>>
>>email:
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
>>Visit our
Website @: http://www.exar.com
>>
>>
>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>
>><Distribution
List>
>> (FJHE36A), J DRUCKENMILLER
>> (TVSG32A), STEVE BOGUS
>>
>>
>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>
>>
Sincerely,
Michael T.
Montgomery
mychajlo@fast.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:48:47 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
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>Can some of
us wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
>of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
>other writers
we are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
>going at the
same time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
>gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>Cody.
>DC
VOC is fine with me (no lazy poetics
intended) but we must do a rehash
as we approach the 40th of OTR at the end
of the summer.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:25:08 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sherri,
I found an
on-line archive of my local newspaper where I read the article.
It was in The
Philadelphia Inquirer. Here's the URL:
http://www2.phillynews.com/inquirer/97/Jun/28/national/DRUM28.htm
Now, you can read
this insanity for yourself
At 05:45 PM
6/30/97 UT, you wrote:
>Holy
shit!!! Since when did a judge's ruling
allow confiscation... there's
>certainly no
confiscation going on of hardcore porn, are the police within
>their rights
to do this???? Ray Bradbury may have
been a prophet. [Thinking
>of digging a huge hole in the basement,
installing shelves & putting my
books
>down there
under a hidden door.]
>
>Thank god I
live in San Francisco...
>
>Ciao,
>Sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Greg Elwell
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:10 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: spare us
>
>At 12:18 AM
6/30/97 -0500, Leo Jilk wrote:
>>>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of
objective
>>>>
literature.
>>>>
C. Plymell
>>>Hell
Charles, they don't read it, they burn it.
I often why I keep
>>>hanging
on to this religion. I mean, ask what's
her name in Alexandria.
>>>They
burned her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>>>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>>>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>>>I
hope my church never finds out that I think for myself. It is an
>>>uneasy
truce at best.
>>>
>>Thinking
of holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
>>behind.
>>-leo
>>
>>
>I don't know
how much this is relating to the subject, but I just
>read(couple
days ago) that In Oklahoma, a judge ruled a 1979 award winning
>film
"obscene." Then, after the
ruling, law enforcement officials tracked
>down EVERY
SINGLE copy of the film that they could get their hands on in
>the
state! One guy recalls sitting down to
watch it, and all of a sudden,
>he hears a
knock on his door. Sure enough, the
police were waiting there,
>because they
had gotten his name from a local video rental store, which
>said that he
had rented it! Oh, the reason the film
was obscene was
>because it
showed a minor partaking in some kind of sex act. The film
>itself dealt
with the holocaust.
>
>If they can
"take away" this film, they can definately take away _Naked
>Lunch_(the
book).
>
>
>ge elwellg@voicenet.com
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:31:17 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Don't shoot the messenger
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This is my first post to the list,
although I've been off and on in
various
incarnations for the last six months. I've been hoping to learn
something from
the subscribers, and I have.
I've also seen that the list offers a
forum for people to express th=
eir
opinions, as well
as their anger, and to advance agendas, whether factual=
ly
or in a way
designed to manipulate with emotions.
I'm a writer who lives in Seattle, and my
credentials include
freelancing for
NPR as well as numerous print publications. I have a long
association with
jack, going back to the summer of Woodstock, when I turn=
ed
18 and read On
The Road and contemplated grabbing my rucksack and running=
off
with the lonesome
traveler who'd given me the book and taken my virginity=
(a
fair swap, I must
say).
The Road, for me, for the last near-30
years, has been as straight a=
s a
corkscrew, but
jack was always there somewhere. Someday I'll tell that st=
ory.
Right now, I have
something more important to say.
In the passionate environment that
surrounds all things Beat and
people's personal
connections to them, and especially, to jack himself, a=
ll
of us who have
come after the fact (not folks like Leon and Charles) seem=
to
have staked
claims and established turf.=20
As principal characters in the kerouac
saga burned bright and then
burned out,
issues began to surface. The issue that has become the most
addressable is
that one which was heatedly discussed here a month or so a=
go:
the
*preservation* of jack's archives. It is part of that issue I wish to
address, with new
information I acquired through research.
I've been in touch with people who could
only be described as second=
ary
to the life of
jack kerouac, asking questions and assembling a feature st=
ory.
There are also
many people I have not met or interviewed. But two of the
people I have
interviewed by phone and through thousands of words in lett=
ers
are Rod Anstee
and Gerry Nicosia. I had the opportunity to form opinions
about both these
men independently, since I did not know, at first, their
history with one
another. Because of their individual credentials, and as=
I
learned the
history they'd shared, determining reliability from either of
them (as sources
for news or feature stories on archive or Estate issues)=
was
essential to
writing the most accurate possible account.
Rod posted a letter to this list regarding
the contents of Gerry's U=
Mass
archives, and I
observed the claims and reactions that followed, without
comment. I was
sad and upset, as I think most of us were, to witness the
conflict.=20
After Rod voluntarily signed off the list
and the rest of the confli=
ct
played itself
out, I called Martha Mayo at UMass, for the specific purpos=
e of
verifying a) what
Rod had claimed and b) what Gerry had claimed. Here are
some of my notes
from that interview, for your edification:
***Martha Mayo
interview, 1:40 to 1:48pm PDT, 17 June 1997 (Mogan Center,
UMass Lowell,
508/934-4997)****
I gave my name and location, said I was a
writer, said I was traveli=
ng
east later this
year and wondered about my chances for seeing the Memory =
Babe
(MB) collection.
"It's an open collection. Anyone can
view it," Mayo said. "It carrie=
s
with it some
standard restrictions. But the major restriction is that let=
ters
from authors
cannot be photocopied, because they are copyrighted material=
s,
copyrighted by
the Estate.
"No photocopying is allowed of any of
Kerouac's letters, because man=
y of
them are
photocopies that came from other collections, and there are
copyright
issues.=20
"There is nothing original in this
collection," she said. "These are
research notes
gathered from many sources."
She said they're very understaffed right
now because school's out fo=
r
the summer, but
that there is always someone available from 9am to 5pm,
Monday through Friday,
to assist people who want to see the collection. S=
he
said people
aren't really using it that much, but that someone had recent=
ly
come to town and
spent time viewing the collection. "Just make an appoint=
ment
3 or 4 days in
advance, letting us know when you'll be here."
So, according to Martha Mayo a) the MB
collection is not closed; b) =
the
MB collection
contains photocopies from other collections; c) anyone who =
asks
permission can
see the collection; d) the collection is composed of
photocopies only;
and e) no one is allowed to photocopy these photocopies.
In short, Rod Anstee is right about the MB
collection and what=92s i=
n it.
I invite you to check these facts on your
own. If anyone in the Lowe=
ll
area could
actually walk in and test this, that would be best.
My point is this: when anyone claims
anything, especially in matters
that are so
potentially inflammatory as this one is, verify the facts, if
there are any.
There=92s no need to become personally involved or defensi=
ve
about facts.
One last note about threats of litigation
regarding libel, slander a=
nd
copyright
infringement: read the Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Man=
ual
for a broad
overview of these legal terms and their ramifications. Truth =
is
always a
legitimate defense.
The rest of the information I=92ve
gathered over the last few months=
will
be submitted for
publication to various markets. I will post a notice of =
any
impending
publication to this list.=20
Diane De Rooy
ddrooy@aol.com
membabe@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:20:56 -0500
Reply-To: Peyote Coyote <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Peyote Coyote
<peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Subject: summer reading and a welcome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Hi. I'm new to the list. My name is Joey Mellott, but you can call me
Peyote Coyote, a
random name I thought up while reading a piece by Artaud.
I will be a
senior in HS in August. I've read On the
Road and Naked
Lunch, and am now
reading Desolation Angels, with plans to read Dr. Sax,
Tristessa, and/or
the Soft Machine by the end of summer. I
became
intrested in the
Beats when a friend suggested I do my US History term
paper on Jack
Kerouac. Thirteen pages and an A+ later,
I'm hooked.
Suggestions are
welcome.
My vote: Desolation Angels. It's superduperific.
Joey Mellott :
poet, writer, and word shaman
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
"the
socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little
bells (300 of
horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."
- Antonin Artaud
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:32:31 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
douglas, i think
that einstein proved that time essentially stands still at
the speed of
light... am i mistaken?
at home with the
flu...
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Penn, Douglas, K
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 10:35 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
<<at work
now>>
<<old hag,
middle aged hen, early cluck. all the
same some would say.
attitude is
everything. <<perhaps>> relativity does apply at a
certain
point. at the speed of light, I might
change into an old man,
flying back from
outer space; while you and yours remain the same.
<<einstein
proved that, yes?>> words may be
just a composite of
letters, counted
and mounted; but when words gain human attributes
(i.e.,
"nigger"), we must put our heads together on the wall, and
honestly talk
about what death and dying really mean.
the traces of
beauty we find in
the world, and yes indeed, if beauty is *truly*
repulsive. what would that mean? [[and I wonder how it *looks*,
surrealist or
not]]
I agree words can
be nothing/everything holy (as Ginsberg would
apparently define),
but I still must hold onto a societal view of
"beauty"
(and a few other choice words). beauty
needs to go for a ride
with me for a
while longer. this I must see. [[oh..exhale..]] why is
it so hard to
give up words? they answer so many
questions.
"what are words for, when nobody
listens any more for
[....] there's no use talking
all..." [missing persons]
>DC
cheers,
Douglas>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:05:10 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: To:
Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Ddrooy@AOL.COM writ:
>As principal characters in the kerouac
saga burned bright and then
>burned out
Who burned out?
Of the "big 5" (my definition)
Jack died young (wrote until his
death--albeit for a girly mag), Cassady
died young (flipped hammers
until his death...ok, but he did write),
Ginsberg wrote until his
death (and may still be writing),
Burroughs is still writing (and may
be preserved enough never to die), Snyder
(in my big 5 because he was
major character and subject) is still
writing (wonderfully, and giving
great lectures).
After that...who? Ferlinghetti (still going (thump, thump,
thump))
Hunke (wrote pretty much until death),
Corso? Whalen? We're running
out of names........(not really)
The early Beats aren't dead,they're just
resting.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:40:32 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: the beat (en) horse/summer
reading update
i agree matt...
hope i won't be outta the country for that
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
MATT HANNAN
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:48 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: the beat (en) horse/summer
reading update
>Can some of
us wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
>of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
>other writers
we are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
>going at the
same time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
>gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>Cody.
>DC
VOC is fine with me (no lazy poetics
intended) but we must do a rehash
as we approach the 40th of OTR at the end
of the summer.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:15:15 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: my vote
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
dharma bums.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:07:30 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Whitman
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970630175215Z-5828@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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quoted-printable
Douglas wrote:
><<still
digging>>
>
>>From: Ksenija
Simic[SMTP:ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU]
>>
>>"Camarado,
>>this is
not a book!
>>Who
touches this, touches the man."
>
>Note to
myself: explore book covers of
beats. first editions ---->
>etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
>bind...
;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
>room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
>
>Douglas <<obese in thought, thin on
restraint>>
I thought I could
only be a
writer if I
pushed a book against
my lips until i
bled.
=46unny thought.
I dented my lip
and tasted the
book, but I
didn't bleed.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:20:52 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Be At Home.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
BE AT HOME!
it is near
a summer evening
lavender flowers
in the garden
i'm afraid! i'm afraid!
at
sunset
honey bees
they worked
at
the end of a day
i'm afraid! i'm afraid!
be at home!
why are you afraid
by the bees?
they yield honey!
do you like the honey?
without bees nothing honey
do you like the honey?
I DONT' LIKE HONEy!
I DONT' LINE HONEY!
I DONT' LIKE HONEy!
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * a bee
beaten *
www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:37:59 -0500
Reply-To: chizam@TRACE.IE.WISC.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Chisholm
<chizam@TRACE.IE.WISC.EDU>
Subject: self proclaimed poet
I am a self
proclaimed poet
relatively new to
beat-l
thought I'd
promote
my site of poetry
(http://trace.ie.wisc.edu/chizam)
I'm a 19 year old
male
living in
Wisconsin
(when I'm not out
traveling)
no formal
teaching
have I recived
in the area of
writing
but I enjoy it
I'm no Kerouac,
Ginsberg, or Whitman
I'm just me
writing
my opinions
my thoughts
my experiences
on paper and in
computers
If you would
go and read my
work
email me what you
think
I'll keep on
writing
because all in
all
it is just for me
Zach Chisholm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:40:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW: please
read this and vote)
Comments: cc:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706301808480644@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 17.51 30/06/97
UT, you wrote:
>This is
important, please take the time.
>Ciao, Sherri
>
>----------
>From: Jamey Sims
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:48 AM
>To: 'sherry'; 'Dave'; 'jota'; 'Jacky';
'Sherri'; 'Stella'; 'Jennifer';
>'Ralph';
'David Lang'; 'boyeeeeeee'; 'Suzie & Robert'; 'Gary'; 'The Lang
>Gang';
'Brandon Wescott'; 'kevey'; 'Dr Cowan'; 'Renee'; 'bogie'; 'Tammy';
>'Shari &
Troy'; 'Yvonne'
>Subject: FW: please read this and vote
>
>do this
please
>--Jamey
>
>----------
>From: Marrow
>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 3:35 PM
>To: Jamey Sims
>Subject: please read this and vote
>
>
>
>>From:
Marrow <mychajlo@pop.fast.net>
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>
>>>From:
J_DRUCK@prodigy.com (MR JEFFREY L DRUCKENMILLER)
>>>Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:39:12, -0500
>>>To:
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com, mychajlo@fast.net
>>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>>
>>>for
your interest
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>>
>>>From: (Warshie) DIANNE WARSHAVER
>>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>>Date: 06/20
>>>Time: 07:28 PM
>>>
>>>so,
we are never safe from crazies.....
>>>
>>>
>>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>>
>>>From: David Blum
>>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>>Date: 06/20
>>>Time: 06:55 PM
>>>
>>>Return-Path:
<davmark@mindspring.com>
>>>Received:
from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com
>>>[207.69.200.11])
>>> by pimaia1w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id SAA106760
>>> for <Warshie@prodigy.com>; Fri, 20
Jun 1997 18:56:48 -0400
>>>Received:
from 38.26.20.135 (ip135.an9-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
>>>[38.26.20.135])
>>> by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id SAA03646;
>>> Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:55:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>>Message-ID:
<33AAC4FA.42EF@mindspring.com>
>>>Date:
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:59:22 +0100
>>>From:
David Blum <davmark@mindspring.com>
>>>Reply-To:
davmark@mindspring.com
>>>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
>>>MIME-Version:
1.0
>>>To:
"artworks@concentric.net" <artworks@concentric.net>,
>>> "CHFriend@aol.com"
<CHFriend@aol.com>,
>>> "joshperi@netvision.net.il"
<joshperi@netvision.net.il>,
>>> MS DIANNE L WARSHAVER
<Warshie@prodigy.com>,
>>> Sarah Barnett
<phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu>,
>>> Steve Zuckerman
<szucker@isd.net>,
>>> "Susan E. Ranney"
<sranney@azstarnet.com>,
>>> Suzie Dennis Ben David
<marketingedge@msn.com>,
>>> "zin@juno.com"
<zin@juno.com>
>>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>>>
>>>>Forwarded
message:
>>>>Subj: No Subject
>>>>Date: 97-06-06 03:17:09 EDT
>>>>From: Jonapangai
>>>>To: CampNicole
>>>>
>>>>We
have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
>>>>(again)
a usenet group where they want to keep in contact
>>>>with
each other regarding their activities. I believe it is not
>>>>necessary
to dwell further on these activities.
>>>>
>>>>The
group is rec.music.white-power
>>>>
>>>>To
create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is
>>>>always
organised when a new usenet group is created.
>>>>All
persons with an email address, and only those, can vote
>>>>in
this referendum.
>>>>
>>>>It
is IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is
>>>>cancelled.
>>>>
>>>>To
prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Send this message to people you know
>>>>
>>>> 2. Send an email to the following address:
>>>>
>>>> music-vote@sub-rosa.com
>>>>
>>>> 3. In the body of your message (not in the
'subject' line)
>>>> include EXACTLY and ONLY the following
line:
>>>>
>>>> I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>>>>
>>>>Since
the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the
>>>>exact
line as it is given above, without adding anything, not even
>>>a
>>>>name.
>>>>And
please send it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
>>>>
>>>>PLEASE FORWARD
>>>>THIS
LETTER TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL ADDRESS TO
>>>>PREVENT
THE GROUP FOUNDERS FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
>>>>
>>>>*********************************************
>>>>
Israel Rubinstein
>>>>
Professor of Chemistry
>>>>
Department of Materials and Interfaces
>>>>The
Weizmann Institute of Science
>>>>
Rehovot 76100, Israel
>>>>Phone:
+972 8 9342678 Fax: +972 8 9344137
>>>>
E-mail: cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il
>>>>http://www.weizmann.ac.il/weg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Gerardo
(Jerry) Rogoff
>>>Field
Applications Engineer
>>>Exar
Corporation
>>>500
Clark Rd.
>>>Tewksbury,
MA 01876
>>>
>>>Tel.: (508) 640-8899
>>>FAX: (508) 640-6926
>>>Pager:
(800) 943-4064
>>>
>>>email:
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
>>>Visit
our Website @: http://www.exar.com
>>>
>>>
>>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>>
>>><Distribution
List>
>>> (FJHE36A), J DRUCKENMILLER
>>> (TVSG32A), STEVE BOGUS
>>>
>>>
>>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Michael T.
Montgomery
>mychajlo@fast.net
>
>
Sherri,
i agree with yr
fwd message, i have already posted likes
message in march
97 & now i dont' know if nazi are attempting
to re-vote 'bout
this NG, if this the case, please send yr
fresh informaion,
'cuz i was pointed (in march 97) that the
vote was over
& the nazi NG spin off the Usenet... but time
perhaps are a
changin',
ciao e tanti
saluti da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:45:08 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: self proclaimed poet
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>From: Zach Chisholm
<chizam@TRACE.IE.WISC.EDU>
>Subject: self proclaimed poet
>
>I am a self
proclaimed poet
>relatively
new to beat-l
>thought I'd
promote
>my site of
poetry
>(http://trace.ie.wisc.edu/chizam)
>I'm a 19 year
old male
>living in
Wisconsin
>(when I'm not
out traveling)
>no formal
teaching
>have I
recived
>in the area
of writing
>but I enjoy
it
>I'm no
Kerouac, Ginsberg, or Whitman
>I'm just me
writing
>my opinions
>my thoughts
>my
experiences
>on paper and
in computers
>If you would
>go and read
my work
>email me what
you think
>I'll keep on
writing
>because all
in all
>it is just
for me
>
>Zach Chisholm
>
>
zach, nice
performance! self proclaimed poet RIGHT ON!
if u Like my
opinion!
---
yrs Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:50:42 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: To:
Ddrooy@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
8bit
Diane De Rooy
wrote:
>
> This is my first post to the list,
although I've been off and on in
> various
incarnations for the last six months. I've been hoping to learn
> something
from the subscribers, and I have.
> I've also seen that the list offers a
forum for people to express their
> opinions, as
well as their anger, and to advance agendas, whether factually
> or in a way
designed to manipulate with emotions.
> I'm a writer who lives in Seattle, and my
credentials include
> freelancing
for NPR as well as numerous print publications. I have a long
> association
with jack, going back to the summer of Woodstock, when I turned
> 18 and read
On The Road and contemplated grabbing my rucksack and running off
> with the
lonesome traveler who'd given me the book and taken my virginity (a
> fair swap, I
must say).
> The Road, for me, for the last near-30
years, has been as straight as a
> corkscrew,
but jack was always there somewhere. Someday I'll tell that story.
> Right now, I
have something more important to say.
> In the passionate environment that
surrounds all things Beat and
> people's
personal connections to them, and especially, to jack himself, all
> of us who
have come after the fact (not folks like Leon and Charles) seem to
> have staked
claims and established turf.
> As principal characters in the kerouac
saga burned bright and then
> burned out,
issues began to surface. The issue that has become the most
> addressable
is that one which was heatedly discussed here a month or so ago:
> the
*preservation* of jack's archives. It is part of that issue I wish to
> address,
with new information I acquired through research.
> I've been in touch with people who could
only be described as secondary
> to the life
of jack kerouac, asking questions and assembling a feature story.
> There are
also many people I have not met or interviewed. But two of the
> people I
have interviewed by phone and through thousands of words in letters
> are Rod
Anstee and Gerry Nicosia. I had the opportunity to form opinions
> about both
these men independently, since I did not know, at first, their
> history with
one another. Because of their individual credentials, and as I
> learned the
history they'd shared, determining reliability from either of
> them (as
sources for news or feature stories on archive or Estate issues) was
> essential to
writing the most accurate possible account.
> Rod posted a letter to this list
regarding the contents of Gerry's UMass
> archives,
and I observed the claims and reactions that followed, without
> comment. I
was sad and upset, as I think most of us were, to witness the
> conflict.
> After Rod voluntarily signed off the list
and the rest of the conflict
> played
itself out, I called Martha Mayo at UMass, for the specific purpose of
> verifying a)
what Rod had claimed and b) what Gerry had claimed. Here are
> some of my
notes from that interview, for your edification:
>
> ***Martha
Mayo interview, 1:40 to 1:48pm PDT, 17 June 1997 (Mogan Center,
> UMass
Lowell, 508/934-4997)****
>
> I gave my name and location, said I was a
writer, said I was traveling
> east later
this year and wondered about my chances for seeing the Memory Babe
> (MB)
collection.
> "It's an open collection. Anyone can
view it," Mayo said. "It carries
> with it some
standard restrictions. But the major restriction is that letters
> from authors
cannot be photocopied, because they are copyrighted materials,
> copyrighted
by the Estate.
> "No photocopying is allowed of any
of Kerouac's letters, because many of
> them are
photocopies that came from other collections, and there are
> copyright
issues.
> "There is nothing original in this
collection," she said. "These are
> research
notes gathered from many sources."
> She said they're very understaffed right
now because school's out for
> the summer,
but that there is always someone available from 9am to 5pm,
> Monday
through Friday, to assist people who want to see the collection. She
> said people
aren't really using it that much, but that someone had recently
> come to town
and spent time viewing the collection. "Just make an appointment
> 3 or 4 days
in advance, letting us know when you'll be here."
> So, according to Martha Mayo a) the MB
collection is not closed; b) the
> MB
collection contains photocopies from other collections; c) anyone who asks
> permission
can see the collection; d) the collection is composed of
> photocopies
only; and e) no one is allowed to photocopy these photocopies.
> In short, Rod Anstee is right about the
MB collection and what s in it.
> I invite you to check these facts on your
own. If anyone in the Lowell
> area could
actually walk in and test this, that would be best.
> My point is this: when anyone claims
anything, especially in matters
> that are so
potentially inflammatory as this one is, verify the facts, if
> there are
any. There s no need to become personally involved or defensive
> about facts.
> One last note about threats of litigation
regarding libel, slander and
> copyright
infringement: read the Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual
> for a broad
overview of these legal terms and their ramifications. Truth is
> always a
legitimate defense.
> The rest of the information I ve gathered
over the last few months will
> be submitted
for publication to various markets. I will post a notice of any
> impending
publication to this list.
>
> Diane De
Rooy
>
ddrooy@aol.com
>
membabe@aol.com
Well, I see that
this ugly beast raises its head again. I
am in the
process of
preparing a contract to represent Gerry N. with regard to
certain matters
involving the collection. Therefore, I
do not wish to
comment many of
the matters raised in this post, except to say, I note
that the author
did not actually go and obtain access to the archives.
Also, I
understand that the photocopies of letters contain Gerry's
notes. They are not photocopies from other
libraries, but from the
owner of the
letter, ie, perhaps Allen Ginsburg, etc.
It is true that
you can make fair
use of a letter, but you may not photocopy it unless
the library owns
the original. Thus, if Allen gave a
letter to Lowell,
and Gerry had
written notes on it, you could photocopy it.
But without
the original, the
library can not let you copy it.
I also will note
to the list that Martha Mayo did not respond to my
inquiry about the
origin of the copies in the file.
Further, I have
copies of letters
from scholars claiming that Martha Mayo denied them
access to the
archives because of threats by third parties.
So, I do
not believe that
this post and an telephone conversation with Martha
Mayo is
sufficient to draw any conclusion such that Rod is right and
Gerry is wrong.
It also is worthy
to note that UMass at Lowell has mixed in with Gerry's
archives other
documents. So, the fact that a document
is in the
archives does not
mean that it was placed there by Gerry.
Paul Marion,
and perhaps
others have placed materials in the library.
These are
objective facts, not my opinon. Martha
Mayo is correct to say
that photocopying
of documents that they do not own the orginals of is
not permitted. She is incorrect to say that permission of
the author is
required to allow
the copying of letters. It is ownership
of the
document that
controls that issue.
I also note with
interest that this post appears almost a day or two
after Gerry signed
off the list. Diane, do you have any
affiliation
with Antsee,
Chaput, Sampas etc.? I know that there
have been some
other
developments in that arena lately, so I wonder about your timing.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:15:28 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: fear and loathing
Content-Type:
text
the current
(June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
published by
Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
"Johnny Depp
will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
based on Hunter
S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
Cox (_Sid and
Nancy_)."
Whaddya think of
that!
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/30/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Has anyone on the
list ever heard of Diane De Rooy. I ran
a 411 search
and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me. So, I
am very curious
about this. I know that there have been
phantom posts
from aol before
and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out.
If Diane is
a real person, I
apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
and the timing
makes it even more so. I apologize, for
an off topic
post.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:38:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
Rinaldo wrote:
Sherri,
i agree with yr
fwd message, i have already posted likes
message in march
97 & now i dont' know if nazi are attempting
to re-vote 'bout
this NG, if this the case, please send yr
fresh informaion,
'cuz i was pointed (in march 97) that the
vote was over
& the nazi NG spin off the Usenet... but time
perhaps are a
changin',
ciao e tanti
saluti da
Rinaldo.
Buona sera
Rinaldo...
Thanks... don't
vote again. Someone on this beat-l list
has informed me that
the thing is
"legendary"... which I
took to mean..
not real. He also pointed out something
that had troubled me
when I sent
it... I wholeheartedly reject
censorship... but i have a real big
problem with
organized hate.
Where do we draw
the line? This is is definitely a
literary issue. I think I
already have my
personal answer, but would like to know from any and all of
you if you think
there is ever a time when a group's ideology can be
considered
harmful enough to humankind that its "propaganda" should be held
somewhat in
check, not stifled or thwarted... maybe minimized. I even ask
this question in
trepidation because the notion of anyone's self expression
being limited
really sticks in my craw. Yet still....
Ciao, mi amici,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:47:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: fear and loathing
I say
WAHOO!!!!!!! thx for the info Mike
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Michael Skau
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 3:15 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: fear and loathing
the current
(June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
published by
Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
"Johnny Depp
will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
based on Hunter
S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
Cox (_Sid and
Nancy_)."
Whaddya think of
that!
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/30/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:25:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Puzzled by this
censorship thread. I thought the idea
was that
expression of
ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
ideas? Just asking.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:16:27 -0400
Reply-To: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: unsubscribing...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
oh geez,
before everyone gets on my case
about this
i need to explain that i already know
the commands,
but for some reason the server won't
accept my
address meaning that it won't let me
off. i've also
tried to contact the administrator, but
my letter was
returned with a vengence stating that
there was no
one on the other end of the address i
tried. so if
you're reading this i'd like to know
what i should
try next.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:50:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Puzzled by
this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> expression
of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> ideas? Just asking.
>
Censorship of any
kind cannot be permitted in books or on usenet.
The
free expression
of ideas is what this country (and the beats) are about.
No matter how
much you loathe someone's ideas, they have a right to
express them as
much has you have a right to express your's.
An idea is
simply an idea.
People try to ban ideas they fear. Your own freedom of
speech can only
be protected by fighting for the free speech of all.
Enough said by
me.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:01:19 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
I know you're
right, Diane... guess emotions and
loathing got the best of
me... apologies.
Ciao Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:50 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Puzzled by
this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> expression
of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> ideas? Just asking.
>
Censorship of any
kind cannot be permitted in books or on usenet.
The
free expression
of ideas is what this country (and the beats) are about.
No matter how
much you loathe someone's ideas, they have a right to
express them as
much has you have a right to express your's.
An idea is
simply an idea.
People try to ban ideas they fear. Your own freedom of
speech can only
be protected by fighting for the free speech of all.
Enough said by
me.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:09:29 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Puzzled by
this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> expression
of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> ideas? Just asking.
>
> J Stauffer
As much as I
despise the organized spread of hatred, I must say that I
have to agree
with James here. I don't want them in my
world, but they
are here. I suppose that teaching love and the truth
will work better
than pretending
like it is not real or censorship. Lies
like people
were not murdered
are sad. It is also sad that they
continue. But if
they get the
Nazi's today, and academy award winning films tomorrow, I
suspect the beat
list is not far behind.
ditto on that
James, and I don't mean me too!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:38:06 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Puzzled
by this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> >
expression of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> > was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> >
ideas? Just asking.
> >
> > J
Stauffer
> As much as I
despise the organized spread of hatred, I must say that I
> have to
agree with James here. I don't want them
in my world, but they
> are
here. I suppose that teaching love and
the truth will work better
> than
pretending like it is not real or censorship.
Lies like people
> were not murdered
are sad. It is also sad that they
continue. But if
> they get the
Nazi's today, and academy award winning films tomorrow, I
> suspect the
beat list is not far behind.
>
> ditto on
that James, and I don't mean me too!
>
> Peace,
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
just a brief note
to let people know that i am alive.
a wonderful shift
from God thread to Nazi thread. amazing
the extremes
in thought
patterns and wonder if a middle is somewhere in between and
whether it would
be worth typing about even if it were found.
am reading
Eisenhower's autobiography cause he's a Kansan and i went to
his funeral and
cause i read it and marked it all up once when i'd gone
far beyond the
edge of reason and cause the title is At Ease and Ease is
something i long
to find in life.
wonder sometimes
about these neo-"Nazis". not
certain that they are
deserving of the
label. this is misunderstandable i
imagine but frankly
from what i've
seen and heard of these folks in America they are rank
amateurs without
a clue what ultimate evil even looks like -- let alone
being anywhere
close to gaining the influence and power that precedes
the actions of
evil connected with the Nazis. Not that
i'm a big fan of
evil or anything
- but let's give the devil and Hitler their due and not
let folks think
they're in the same league just by shaving heads and
screaming
insanities. certain labels Nazis
included really are
something one
would have to earn i would think and i've not yet learned
of significant
actions in the arena of evil taken by said folks that
puts them under
the shadowy cloak of evil the Fuhrer presented to the
world.
of course here in
Kansas i may be misinformed :)
take care all,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:42:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: burroughs story
today my boss (an
english teacher) told me that he went to a bar and had a
drink with
william burroughs once. I almost
fainted.
here is my sycophantic poem of
unadulterated obsequiousness dedicated to
this great genius
of the 20th century (other 20th cent. genii: picasso,
breton,
duchamp...):
bill-ee bill
you de man
you de boss
you de boss-man
yes suh yes suh
3 bags full
Lawrence, Kansas
is so far, so far, so far!
Why do i hafta
work dis damn job?
all i wanna do is
a boom-boom-boom
and a zoom-zoom!
(hand of doom)!
i'm goin' to see
you in September cause i'm going away
(far away! far
away!)
and i might not
come back;
and right now
Lawrence Kansas feels like the center of the universe.
a-boom,
BIP-----a-boom-BIP!
I just want to
look into your eyes and know that you are real.
just once.
You spin my
synapses into extatic convulsions
of realization
that there is the possibility
that maybe
and it's a big
"IF"
....there's hope
in a grain of sand.
I'l make you
proud of me, daddy-o!
(this is possibly
the worst poem ever written by a human being, maybe isn't a
poem at all, but
hey, i'm not the only one who posts crappy stuff on this
list)
AHEM AHEM AHEM
(yes, i clear my
throat in YOUR direction, my friend)
----------Maya<<<has
frog in throat. Reaches in and gropes
around, finally
manages to grab
frog by the leg. Pulls frog out. Notices
that frog's wisened
eyes have uncanny
resmblance to William s Burroughs'.......>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:49:15 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: two beats in one state meet
In a message
dated 97-06-29 17:01:38 EDT, you write:
<<
hi all. i dont want to make this into chatroom
city, but did want to tell
you all that diane carter (my editor from mad
magazine and journalist in
her own write) and i met for lunch. and diane
kept her lunch down after
being assaulted verbally by my own recordings
of my recent pomes. that's
bein in the trenches let me tell you. and a
perceptive ear as well as a
comely eye, diane.
thanks
leon, you were right all along!
mc >>
I LOVE MAD
MAGAZINE!!! Does anyone know any cool old comic books or mags? I
mean funny
ones? Ones that make fun of anything and
everything
indiscriminately?
please let me
know!
--maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:16:07 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: chicago
The greatest book
I've read on Chicago since Nelson Algren is: Beneath The
Empire of the
Birds by Carl Watson, Apathy Press Poets, T. Diventi, ed. 409
Kent Ave.
Brooklyn, NY 11211, 718-218-8634. Cover
design by Joe Coleman who
did the cover for
Jack Black's You Can't Win.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:19:31 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: burroughs story
too much, man...
i'm flying,
flying
higher, higher
and a bippidy
boppidy boo!!! <tremendous
laughter>
Great to have
some good laughs... you go girl!
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Maya Gorton
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:42 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: burroughs story
today my boss (an
english teacher) told me that he went to a bar and had a
drink with
william burroughs once. I almost
fainted.
here is my sycophantic poem of
unadulterated obsequiousness dedicated to
this great genius
of the 20th century (other 20th cent. genii: picasso,
breton,
duchamp...):
bill-ee bill
you de man
you de boss
you de boss-man
yes suh yes suh
3 bags full
Lawrence, Kansas
is so far, so far, so far!
Why do i hafta
work dis damn job?
all i wanna do is
a boom-boom-boom
and a zoom-zoom!
(hand of doom)!
i'm goin' to see
you in September cause i'm going away
(far away! far
away!)
and i might not
come back;
and right now
Lawrence Kansas feels like the center of the universe.
a-boom,
BIP-----a-boom-BIP!
I just want to
look into your eyes and know that you are real.
just once.
You spin my
synapses into extatic convulsions
of realization
that there is the possibility
that maybe
and it's a big
"IF"
....there's hope
in a grain of sand.
I'l make you proud
of me, daddy-o!
(this is possibly
the worst poem ever written by a human being, maybe isn't a
poem at all, but
hey, i'm not the only one who posts crappy stuff on this
list)
AHEM AHEM AHEM
(yes, i clear my
throat in YOUR direction, my friend)
----------Maya<<<has
frog in throat. Reaches in and gropes
around, finally
manages to grab
frog by the leg. Pulls frog out. Notices
that frog's wisened
eyes have uncanny
resmblance to William s Burroughs'.......>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:30:27 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: high coup (haiku)
the sweet smell
of summer leaves,
dark green and
steaming in the sunny, buzzing air.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:35:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
In a message
dated 97-06-30 14:23:33 EDT, you write:
<< Charles,
Cool... and although there is a lot of pablum,
I hope you don't mind the
medium growing and expanding beyond it
origins... it would be dead if it
didn't.
By the way, I am somewhat new to Beat lit,
although the ideologies are what
I
cut my teeth on. So please forgive me when I say that I am
unfamiliar with
your work, but would like to change that. Does City Lights publish you?
And
what would you suggest as my first read?
>>
City Lights
published the first edition of Last of the Moccasins and the poem
Apocalypse in
City Lights Journal which was later brought out as a chapbook
handset and
designed by Dave Haselwood in SF. Since then I have had nothing
to do with City
Lights.
Try the following
site as a primer: www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html, click
to Goblin, Room
Temperature, etc. My published work is
out of print except
the second
American edition of Last of the Moccasins which is available from
Jeff at Waterrow.
That should cut you through the time warp.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:27:16 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Mad Magazine
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
I always loved
the word plays they did back in the 60's like:
She drove off in
a huff. and it would have a drawing of a
woman in a
car that looked
like a Nash Metropolitan. (Hey Charles, did you ever
have a
Nash!!!! Those were some cherry
wheels. Too bad they sold out
to Rambler,
American, Chrysler.), etc. Those were
some of the best
intellectual
stuff around on any level. Til National
Lampoon came
along. It raised the ante.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Dreams
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Dreams
In a dream, God
said to me:
"Don't you
EVER mention my name on
the Beat List
again."
I figured she was
just joking!
Like when the
animals were
Brought to Adam,
"He called
it an elephant!!!"
"HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!"
Does God ever
make idol threats
Against you in
your sleep?
I dreamed I saw
God and
Maya's face was
on him.
Then I thought, I
don't
Know Maya's face.
Then I thought,
well,
This is a dream.
So, maybe it was
her face?
Then I went
behind the
Big screen where
my cat
Was swatting at a
roach,
And there was
that guy
That looked like
the guy
>From Mad
Magazine.
He said,
"What, God worry?"
So, I am
wondering
If I should take
it all
Seriously or not.
Hey, the phone
just rang.
It's God, he
wants to
Play handball.
Zeus is out of
town.
Hera won't leave
him home alone.
I told him one on
one full court,
But I don't do
handball.
We have a $35.00
bet.
I wonder where he
is planning on parking?
rbk 6/30/97
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:58:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: WARNING! non-beat! do not read!
(I know i have a
problem with my trigger-happy "send" finger, but you read
the warning and
you did this to yourself, cats)
theremin
nightmare swims through greenly closed eyes
the red dots are
here again
llllllllike
doppler test skinner boxes,
inkblots reading
my mind in the dark
so bad for your eyes the incision must be made
at the precise point of damn
i forgot to save
it again so it's lost forever but i remember to brush my
teeth.
the precise point
of intersection between ear and soul#3.
Don't be afraid,
you've been there all along.
There are many
concepts of time which have not been explored sufficiently in
our flat, flat,
flat western world and these are the following:
time as
distance. Time = how long it takes to
get from A to B.
time as circular.
No explanation needed we all know about hinduism, etc.
what about mayas and aztecs, too? circular and
repetitive. Sun moves in
circle.(some
heretics suggest it is we who move! but this is obviously a lie)
time as defined
by what you are doing, your activities.
For example, not 12
o'clock but
"llunchtime", etc. we do it all the time.
time and whether
or not you can do what you want with it, degree of choice of
what to do with
it as reflecting your socio-economic class.
America today.
---maya (god is
on the Evolutionary Level Above Human)
(Time as
non-existent,non-expressable constant evolution of all things
always) (after
all this time in our quantifiable view of life, our world is
still so very
flat, so very flat!)
Resounding
platitudes are not limited to this list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:00:07 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: fear and loathing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Actually, Depp
and Cox had quite a difference in opinion of how the book
should be filmed,
and Cox has been dropped. Last time I heard filming is
now set for early
July with Terry Gilliam doing the honors.
Adrien
Michael Skau
wrote:
>
> the current
(June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
> published by
Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
> "Johnny
Depp will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
> based on
Hunter S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
> Cox (_Sid
and Nancy_)."
> Whaddya
think of that!
> Cordially,
> Mike Skau
> 6/30/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:09:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat core
Comments: To:
"neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@MAINSERVER.DISCOVLAND.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33B54E5D.5978@discovland.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> J. Stauffer
wrote:
>
> > Does
anyone have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> > restore
some minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> >
completely evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> > more
Kozmic Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness?
>
> Just
finished reading Kerouac's 'Mexico City Blues'. It gets stronger as
> you read it.
I have come to the conclusion that his Blues choruses must
> be read
drunk, or with at least a buzz, the rhythms jump out easier. It
> is also
closer to his state while writing them.
>
> Anybody read
Bob Kaufman? he's a real character.
i see what you
mean--at least partially; however, my beat lit students
have just waded
through some of the choruses--and i think they found them
quite lucid and
indeed huzzah magical even without weed or booze; of
course Jack wrote
many (?) of them on a coffee and pot high...but then
again their tenor
and tone and imagery and such are red and right for any
(well, pretty
much any) state of mind. my students were very impressed
byt michael
mcclure's notion that MCB is the greatest long religious poem
in the 20th
century. quite an imprimateur. of course then MCB would beat
out Eliot's
Wasteland--which is quite a wow religious poem in its own
right!
>
Steve R. Smith
Dept. of English
Pacific
University
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:12:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
In a message
dated 97-06-30 13:59:50 EDT, you write:
<< ok. I'm
a big fan of the river. >>
Well, I hate to
be a bore, but sometimes it seems that those who discovered
the beats seem to
frame them or freeze them in time like a fast food carry
out. One of the
poet's poet who influenced them all wrote a poem titled The
River. It used to
be in his Brooklyn Bridge collection. Harte Crane was
notoriously
homosexual, though like Whitman it was deseminated throughout his
vision. He was
the first poet I've read who so openly used the breath to end
lines, combined
and invented words from what was around him, embraced his
lovers, relied
heavily on spontenaeity for his images and vision. I think it
is The River that
provides an example of all these things that made his poety
great and
acknowledged rather secretly by all those who came later,
especially the
beats. That poem, or one, begins with about a half page of
breath, combining
ads "ripped in the guaranteed corner" and when the breath
runs out, the
next breath softens with "and left three men sitting on the
tracks/watching
tailights wizen and converge." I don't have his book, so this
is recalled from
the 50's. But I'm sometimes perplexed with the "Alpha and
Omega" sense
that surrounds the "discovery" of the beats?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:29:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Visionaries (Eliot/Ginsberg again,
for Michael Skau & et al)
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33B763DB.63BC@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 30 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Now that
I've reread some Eliot, I am ready to address a few points from
> earlier
Eliot/visionary discussion.
>
> I think
there needs to be a distinction between a poet that writes
> symbolically
and a visionary. Eliot is really
depressing. Eliot saw
> what was
wrong, spiritually, but accepted "death-in-life,"
>
> (Prufrock)
> "Do I
dare disturb the universe?"
>
> "I am
no prophet--and there's no great matter;
> I have seen
the moment of my greatness flicker,
> And I have
seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker.
> And in short,
I was afraid."
>
> Eliot saw
the vision, saw what was necessary to do, but could not rise to
> the
task. The visionary poet must in some
meaning of the term, be a
> prophet,
rail against the status quo, and in doing so put forth a his own
> positive
vision of what is possible. He must as
Chris Dumond, so
> articulately
put, in another post about Ginsberg, "[rain] life, pride,
> and love on
us all." Blake took the work of
other writers, like Milton,
> and put his
vision over their's in a way that spread out, and widened,
> set up his
own system, of what was and what could be.
>
> The hope in
the Wasteland is faint, really faint, the sound of thunder
> there but
not resonant, not awakening, at least not yet.
The grass is
> singing but it
is not fully alive. Not in the way
Whitman or Ginsberg
> sang or were
fully alive. A visionary says "this
is what I see" and
> projects his
vision out there, loudly.
>
> Eliot
writes,
> "No! I
am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
> Am an attendant
lord, one that will do
> To swell a
progress, start a scene or two,
> Advise the
prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
> Deferential,
glad to be of use,
> Politic,
cautious, and meticulous;
> Full of high
sentence, but a bit obtuse"
>
> Eliot used
symbols well, layering in metaphoric and metaphysical
> dimensions,
the fire and rose are one, even cyclic sometimes in his view
> of words and
history, but often his words are devoid of power, the power
> to change,
to do anymore than accept his lot. A
true visionary
> transforms
experience, their experience and our experience. In Howl,
> Ginsberg
raged against America, but he also saw the possibility for the
> hope that
rises up in our humanness. Eliot is not
grasping upon the
> mermaid,
rising with her cutching rebirth, he is looking at it from afar.
> I would describe his voice not so much as a
visionary one as one that
> saw what was
possible, but was unable to grasp whatever he needed to
> transcend
his condition.
> DC
>
Hi, Diane. But
there is the WAY in the Wasteland--the regenerative
spirit and flesh
available through the grail and the knight moving
through the
pilgrimage to it. yes, the Wasteland is bleak (blook,
perhaps, in
Kerouac's term) (or blear!), but there is Eliot's own (yes,
the intentional
fallacy rears up here) faith. this does come through the
poem. no question
i see Eliot as a visionary--like Blake and Ginsberg.
It's just they
saw visions in different tone and different tenor. Of
course Blake and
Ginsberg would not see through the same glass as Eliot
in all his rather
conservative protestantisms, but they all three of
them SAW visions,
i tend to see "visionary" poet as poet who sees of
beyond and
through the "veils"--whatever the veils may be. Eliot could be
such a stick in
the bloody mud, but he saw the bloody mud and clear on
through the
bloody comedy (Kerouac's note in Desolation Angels) to "what
came next."
i am blah blahing
here, but...
Steve R. Smith
English Dept.
Pacific Univ.
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:10:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams
Hahahahahaha!!
so why didn't you
tell him to call Thor? Bad news if god
plays a joke on you
and moves the no
parking signs, then wins the game.....
<hehehe> you be
broke, big daddy
Thanks for the
grins,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 8:36 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Dreams
Dreams
In a dream, God
said to me:
"Don't you
EVER mention my name on
the Beat List
again."
I figured she was
just joking!
Like when the
animals were
Brought to Adam,
"He called
it an elephant!!!"
"HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!"
Does God ever
make idol threats
Against you in
your sleep?
I dreamed I saw
God and
Maya's face was
on him.
Then I thought, I
don't
Know Maya's face.
Then I thought,
well,
This is a dream.
So, maybe it was
her face?
Then I went
behind the
Big screen where
my cat
Was swatting at a
roach,
And there was
that guy
That looked like
the guy
>From Mad
Magazine.
He said,
"What, God worry?"
So, I am
wondering
If I should take
it all
Seriously or not.
Hey, the phone
just rang.
It's God, he
wants to
Play handball.
Zeus is out of
town.
Hera won't leave
him home alone.
I told him one on
one full court,
But I don't do
handball.
We have a $35.00
bet.
I wonder where he
is planning on parking?
rbk 6/30/97
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:39 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Standing here
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Standing Here
Standing here,
An outcast
within.
Swim in light,
A well meant vow.
I lack the
courage,
To maintain until
I meet my rebirth
again.
I face my dreams,
They, so like an
angry wife,
Who cannot be
divorced,
Except.
The debasing
night.
To become honest.
Moment's realized
revelation,
Years of seconds,
Moments of years,
My demons ARE mine.
This stand, may
not be unique,
But, it's the
only one I have.
Hidden too long.
I lack the
courage,
To maintain
Until my rebirth
again.
Standing here.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:42:24 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dEAR fRIENDS,
i'm noticed in
advance many people disagree with
censored the NG
nazi, anyway i agree with people
who want that
hate & dont' forget that hitler gang
was let talked in
past & from word to word people
agree with the
project & then olocausto became a reality,
word arent'
facts, maybe but in politics there a bit
different matter
i suppose,
tHanx alot for yr
opinions my friends,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
* I write peotry
because Ezra Pound saw an ivory tower,
[bet on one wrong horse... ---allen
ginsberg *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:36:31 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: high coup (haiku)
In-Reply-To:
<970630233024_340215299@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<<oh
my>>
At 8:30 PM -0700
6/30/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> the sweet
smell of summer leaves,
> dark green
and steaming in the sunny, buzzing air.
>
> m
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:41:37 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams
In-Reply-To: <33B87B51.73D3527@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<<nice>>
At 8:36 PM -0700
6/30/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Dreams
>
> In a dream,
God said to me:
> "Don't
you EVER mention my name on
> the Beat
List again."
> I figured
she was just joking!
> Like when
the animals were
> Brought to
Adam,
> "He
called it an elephant!!!"
>
"HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!"
> Does God
ever make idol threats
> Against you
in your sleep?
> I dreamed I
saw God and
> Maya's face
was on him.
> Then I
thought, I don't
> Know Maya's
face.
> Then I
thought, well,
> This is a
dream.
> So, maybe it
was her face?
> Then I went
behind the
> Big screen
where my cat
> Was swatting
at a roach,
> And there
was that guy
> That looked
like the guy
> >From Mad
Magazine.
> He said,
"What, God worry?"
> So, I am
wondering
> If I should
take it all
> Seriously or
not.
> Hey, the
phone just rang.
> It's God, he
wants to
> Play handball.
> Zeus is out
of town.
> Hera won't
leave him home alone.
> I told him
one on one full court,
> But I don't
do handball.
> We have a
$35.00 bet.
> I wonder
where he is planning on parking?
>
> rbk 6/30/97
>
> --
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:46:38 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: WARNING! non-beat! do not read!
In-Reply-To:
<970630235821_523982585@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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<<laugh>> <<good health, Maya>>
<<hm>>
At 8:58 PM -0700
6/30/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> (I know i
have a problem with my trigger-happy "send" finger, but you read
> the warning
and you did this to yourself, cats)
>
>
> theremin
nightmare swims through greenly closed eyes
> the red dots
are here again
> llllllllike
doppler test skinner boxes,
> inkblots
reading my mind in the dark
>
> so bad for your eyes the incision must be
made at the precise point of damn
> i forgot to
save it again so it's lost forever but i remember to brush my
> teeth.
> the precise
point of intersection between ear and soul#3.
> Don't be
afraid, you've been there all along.
>
> There are
many concepts of time which have not been explored sufficiently in
> our flat,
flat, flat western world and these are the following:
>
> time as
distance. Time = how long it takes to
get from A to B.
>
> time as
circular. No explanation needed we all know about hinduism, etc.
> what about mayas and aztecs, too? circular and
repetitive. Sun moves in
> circle.(some
heretics suggest it is we who move! but this is obviously a lie)
>
> time as
defined by what you are doing, your activities.
For example, not 12
> o'clock but
"llunchtime", etc. we do it all the time.
>
> time and
whether or not you can do what you want with it, degree of choice of
> what to do
with it as reflecting your socio-economic class. America today.
>
> ---maya (god
is on the Evolutionary Level Above Human)
> (Time as
non-existent,non-expressable constant evolution of all things
> always)
(after all this time in our quantifiable view of life, our world is
> still so
very flat, so very flat!)
>
> Resounding
platitudes are not limited to this list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:50:21 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re:
<<Diane>>, di prima, <<beauty>>
In-Reply-To:
<970701001250_174279242@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<<and what
were we saying about critics, so few, so rare?>>
At 9:12 PM -0700
6/30/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-06-30 13:59:50 EDT, you write:
>
> << ok.
I'm a big fan of the river. >>
> Well, I hate
to be a bore, but sometimes it seems that those who discovered
> the beats
seem to frame them or freeze them in time like a fast food carry
> out. One of
the poet's poet who influenced them all wrote a poem titled The
> River. It
used to be in his Brooklyn Bridge collection. Harte Crane was
> notoriously
homosexual, though like Whitman it was deseminated throughout his
> vision. He
was the first poet I've read who so openly used the breath to end
> lines,
combined and invented words from what was around him, embraced his
> lovers,
relied heavily on spontenaeity for his images and vision. I think it
> is The River
that provides an example of all these things that made his poety
> great and
acknowledged rather secretly by all those who came later,
> especially
the beats. That poem, or one, begins with about a half page of
> breath,
combining ads "ripped in the guaranteed corner" and when the breath
> runs out,
the next breath softens with "and left three men sitting on the
>
tracks/watching tailights wizen and converge." I don't have his book, so
this
> is recalled
from the 50's. But I'm sometimes perplexed with the "Alpha and
> Omega"
sense that surrounds the "discovery" of the beats?
> Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:56:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Standing here
In-Reply-To: <33B88D52.39EBA75F@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't know what
you poety freaks are all cryin about tonight.
I know
Xena's dead, I
know. I know. but tune in next
week. Xena will ride
again!! <<ahem>> Douglas
At 9:53 PM -0700
6/30/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Standing
Here
>
> Standing
here,
> An outcast
within.
> Swim in
light,
> A well meant
vow.
>
> I lack the
courage,
> To maintain
until
> I meet my
rebirth again.
> I face my
dreams,
> They, so
like an angry wife,
> Who cannot
be divorced,
> Except.
>
> The debasing
night.
> To become
honest.
> Moment's
realized revelation,
> Years of
seconds,
> Moments of
years,
> My demons
ARE mine.
>
> This stand,
may not be unique,
> But, it's
the only one I have.
>
> Hidden too
long.
> I lack the courage,
> To maintain
> Until my
rebirth again.
>
> Standing
here.
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:18:28 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Poet
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Diane Carter wrote:
> If poetry
provides the answers, who asks the question?
The poet? Ah,
> sorry folks,
won't follow that line of line of thought any farther...
We don't have to
worry about the origins of the questions. The poet
provides the
answers, his answers = his truth ; and there are many
answers = many
truths. As a reader, you choose which answers fit you
best.
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:13:33 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970701074224.00689a48@pop.gpnet.it>
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I think I feel
that people will
watch and wait
see what happens
because you can't
be everywhere be
everything
certainly not
against
everything
my god
life is about
breathing
about swimming
<<peeing in
the pool>>
and about running
always about
running
time takes a
cigarette <<david bowie>>
Nazies, what do I
care?
I think I feel
olo cost
that's why people
don't agree
censsssor ship is
bad!!!
douglas
At 10:42 PM -0700
6/30/97, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> dEAR
fRIENDS,
> i'm noticed
in advance many people disagree with
> censored the
NG nazi, anyway i agree with people
> who want
that hate & dont' forget that hitler gang
> was let
talked in past & from word to word people
> agree with
the project & then olocausto became a reality,
> word arent'
facts, maybe but in politics there a bit
> different
matter i suppose,
> tHanx alot
for yr opinions my friends,
> ---
> yrs
> Rinaldo.
> * I write
peotry because Ezra Pound saw an ivory tower,
> [bet on one wrong horse... ---allen
ginsberg *
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:25:23 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: fear and loathing
In-Reply-To: <33B88EC4.4ABC@sk.sympatico.ca>
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our little surfer
surfer dude
he's come a long
way
barns having
fallen on him
riding buck back
high rollin
freakin dancin
death boogy in
little buddha,
mister dylan's dog
a patti smith
poem, thank you
future comotose
future
can you take a
guess
what would you
do?
star makes the
money
cutts the funny
gets the honey
fuck me?
fuck me?
fuck you
quit a difference
of opinion, obviously. on his way to
<<vegas>>
gott any heroine?
need heroine?
<<get back
in the car man>>
jagged paintings
hanging loosely
droppin pills and
pepsies
heroine <<where the qualudes, man?>>
lawyers will have
a mess with this one man
sharks!! eat him up
sharks!! eat him up
<<shut up
Nancy!!>> <<Nancy girl>> <<nancy girl>>
<<adrian!!>>
<<rocky??>> <<Dr.
Scott!!>> <<huh??>>
geez, what kinda
of a fear and loathing can we be expecting now?
Terry
Gilliam's pretty
cool... if only River Phoenix hadn't
died... <<man>>
Douglas
At 10:00 PM -0700
6/30/97, Adrien Begrand wrote:
> Actually,
Depp and Cox had quite a difference in opinion of how the book
> should be
filmed, and Cox has been dropped. Last time I heard filming is
> now set for
early July with Terry Gilliam doing the honors.
>
> Adrien
>
> Michael Skau
wrote:
> >
> > the
current (June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
> >
published by Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
> >
"Johnny Depp will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
> > based
on Hunter S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
> > Cox
(_Sid and Nancy_)."
> > Whaddya
think of that!
> >
Cordially,
> > Mike
Skau
> > 6/30/97
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:27:58 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Genius
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Maya wrote:
> (this is
possibly the worst poem ever written by a human being, maybe isn't a
> poem at all,
but hey, i'm not the only one who posts crappy stuff on this
> list)
There's no need
for this. Not enough time in the world to double doubt.
Remember #29 on
Kerouac's list: everything you write is pure genius
[paraphrase].
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:12:03 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:13:33 -0700
>From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
>I think I
feel
>that people
will watch and wait
>see what
happens because you can't
>be everywhere
be everything
>certainly not
against
>everything
>my god
>
>life is about
breathing
>about
swimming
><<peeing
in the pool>>
>and about
running
>always about
running
>
>time takes a
cigarette <<david bowie>>
>
>Nazies, what
do I care?
>I think I
feel
>olo cost
>that's why
people don't agree
>censsssor
ship is bad!!!
>
>douglas
>
>At 10:42 PM
-0700 6/30/97, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>
>> dEAR
fRIENDS,
>> i'm
noticed in advance many people disagree with
>> censored
the NG nazi, anyway i agree with people
>> who want
that hate & dont' forget that hitler gang
>> was let
talked in past & from word to word people
>> agree
with the project & then olocausto became a reality,
>> word
arent' facts, maybe but in politics there a bit
>>
different matter i suppose,
>> tHanx
alot for yr opinions my friends,
>> ---
>> yrs
>> Rinaldo.
>> * I
write peotry because Ezra Pound saw an ivory tower,
>> [bet on one wrong horse... ---allen
ginsberg *
>
>
>http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
>save it, just
keep it off my wave is
> -- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
>
dEAR,
i agree with u
but i forced myself to forget that
Ezra Pound IS a
fascist & put a line between poetry
& politics,
but this not possible in every case,
the poetry as i
known born in italy with San Francesco
& then with
Dante Alighieri & wasnt' so clear that
was ONLY lit,
poetry was POLITICS at his dawn its' no
doubt, & what
i must say 'cuz im' born in a patria who
was the land
where fascism was grown...
have my love,
Rinaldo. * a not
competent beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:46:58 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: desperately seeking dave
breithaupt!/radio show tape!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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sorry folks tried
to backchannel the info; couldnt;
does anyone have
db(breithaupt)'s snail mail address?
db: i got a
package for you with an empty address.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:03:27 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: cc:
membabe@aol.com
In-Reply-To: <33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
Yes. Diane organized a virtual memorial for Allen
Ginsberg within a week
of his death on
the America Online Beat Generation Chat Room.
The several
of us who logged
on that morning remembered the best of Allen's work and
life. We shared stories and posted excerpts from
his work. It was one of
the better
memorials I attended that month.
Since then, we
have exchanged occasional emails; and I have tried to return
to the Beat
Generation Chat Room, but I always seem to turn up when the
room is empty.
I have found
Diane to be honest, considerate, compassionate--and a very
good writer. She is a professional. I do not know enough about the
details of the
estate controversy to comment on the nuances of the
arguments. I was one of those BEAT-L subscribers who was
not turned off by
the arguments
over the estate these past few weeks. As
a scholar who
periodically must
make use of closed-stack library collections--and as a
former Rare Books
staffer--I found the arguments worth reading.
And I found
nothing in Diane's posting that was outrageous.
Your
disagreements are
well taken, as was your reminder that an actual visit to
the Lowell
archives would constitute stronger evidence than would a
telephone call to
the archives.
>I also note
with interest that this post appears almost a day or two
>after Gerry
signed off the list.
Did Gerry post a
notice to the list that he was signing off?
If so, then I
understand why
you said the above, and I'm sorry that I missed Gerry's
posting. I have been swamped with work lately, and
I've been unable to do
more than save
the postings I've wanted to respond to (visionary poetry,
Ginsberg &
Eliot) and hope to respond later.
But if Gerry did
not give public notice that he was leaving, then how would
Diane--or any of
us--know he was gone? I know that
listservs have a
command (I can't
remember right now because it is saved in another file)
that will allow
you to get a list of all current subscribers.
I tried this
for BEAT-L about two
years ago, and was told that this particular command
was blocked. As far as I know, the subscriber list is
confidential. Thus,
I'm not sure how
Diane would know Gerry had signed off.
>I ran a 411
search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me.
I am probably
more technologically challenged than I think I am. Please
explain what a
"411" search is. The closest
analogue I can come up with is
a directory
assistance telephone search, which we can do locally by
dialling
"411."
Do you mean a
finger search? If so, then rest
assured: the various times
that I have tried
finger searches on folks who belong to AOL, I have
received no
information. As far as I can tell, AOL
blocks finger searches.
Every "finger" attempt to find a
login name--and information on login
frequency--for an
AOL user will turn up nothing.
Again, maybe I'm
missing the "411" code. Or
maybe there is a way to
subvert AOL's
finger-blocking.
>So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
I am sorry, too,
for the off topic post. I just wanted to
write to let you
know what I know
of Diane as a real person. By writing
this, I do not
intend to involve
myself in the estate controversy, nor do I purport to
have relevant
knowledge of the controversy. I am not taking sides on any of
the issues that
have emerged from the estate arguments. I hope this helps.
Take care--
Peace--
Tony
atrigili@lynx.neu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:37:39 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: WHITMAN
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Sherri wrote:
><grins>
so then, leo, was your thot on the beam, were you too lazy or scare=
d
>of pain, or
does it mean that blood-letting is not required? <still
>giggling> Ciao, Sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
>=3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=3DFCenza?=3D
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 2:07 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Whitman
>
>Douglas
wrote:
>
>><<still
digging>>
>>
>>>From: Ksenija
Simic[SMTP:ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU]
>>>
>>>"Camarado,
>>>this
is not a book!
>>>Who
touches this, touches the man."
>>
>>Note to
myself: explore book covers of
beats. first editions ---->
>>etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
>>bind...
;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
>>room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
>>
>>Douglas <<obese in thought, thin on
restraint>>
>
>I thought I
could only be a
>writer if I
pushed a book against
>my lips until
i bled.
>
>=3D46unny
thought.
>
>I dented my
lip and tasted the
>book, but I
didn't bleed.
>
>-leo
it was a silly
thought. i should've been waiting for the book to bleed.
Emerson said
something about words being vascular; anyway, if you cut them
they will bleed.
leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:12:51 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: God
<<still digging>>
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>Joseph
Neudorfer writ
>
> >= there
is nothing holding us back from knowing all, but there is
> >no
> >physical
possibility of reaching that 'all-knowledge', you would soon
> >swim in
insanity . . . hense Jehovah is crazy . . . that is why even
> >Moses,
the figure who was in Yahweh's presence, was not actually face
>to
> >face.
When Moses asked Yahweh to reveal himself (one of the many times
> >on the mountains,
after the burning bush), Yahweh only permitted Moses
> >to
observe his back and shoulders - which on one level is a paradox in
>
itself.>>
>
> Penn,
Douglas, K wrote:
> and is this
why Andre Breton says "beauty must be repulsive"?? To reach
> 'all-beauty'
would one soon be repulsed by everything??
and where to
>go
> from
there? back down the mountain?? [[please don't let me ask about
> the
"burning bush" in this context, please don't let me ask, please...
>
<<laughing>>
>
> Still wish
you would explain that Yahweh/Moses ---> back/shoulders
>
paradox. Maybe Yahweh was an ugly mofo,
having a badhair day, and just
> decided to
be shy? somewhat kidding, but
curious <<answer via
>
>backchannel if necessary>>
>
The more I think
about Joseph's post of reaching all-knowledge as
swimming in
insanity and hense Jehovah is crazy, the more right on target
I see it. I took the Moses observing back &
shoulders analogy to mean
that if Moses
[we] saw the face of God, we would indeed go insane. Can
you even start to
imagine what grasping the wholeness of human knowledge
and the universe
in one instant would be like? Much
better that we grasp
at meanings
broken down into bits, the god talked about in churches seen
in human terms,
the idea of father, children, Jesus, all put in a human
mythological
context so our feeble minds can cope.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:17:34 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Puzzled
by this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> >
expression of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> > was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> >
ideas? Just asking.
> >
>
> Censorship
of any kind cannot be permitted in books or on usenet. The
> free
expression of ideas is what this country (and the beats) are about.
> No matter
how much you loathe someone's ideas, they have a right to
> express them
as much has you have a right to express your's.
An idea is
> simply an
idea. People try to ban ideas they fear. Your own freedom of
> speech can
only be protected by fighting for the free speech of all.
> Enough said
by me.
> DC
just
curious...this country? isn't this the net...and a world-wide list?
Couldn't anybody,
even joe kerouac over in Somalia, join?
Are our first
amendmentment
rights protected Throws the ball to Bentz :)
I am actually
curious about this one, because I chat over at alamak at
think cafe, and I
go a number of rounds on whether a public site, though
privately
maintained, can censor ideas. I would
appreciate any insights
you could
provide.
also...I am sure I could get a Beat
chat room set up at optichat for
folks that wanted
to talk...but there is a cursing filter...so in order
to truly curse,
you have to do so creatively.
barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:24:31 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970701131203.0068b834@pop.gpnet.it>
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<<fighting
a poundig head>> Rinaldo writ:
> dEAR,
> i agree with
u but i forced myself to forget that
> Ezra Pound
IS a fascist & put a line between poetry
> &
politics, but this not possible in every case,
> the poetry
as i known born in italy with San Francesco
> & then
with Dante Alighieri & wasnt' so clear that
> was ONLY
lit, poetry was POLITICS at his dawn its' no
> doubt, &
what i must say 'cuz im' born in a patria who
> was the land
where fascism was grown...
> have my
love,
> Rinaldo. * a
not competent beet *
sometimes the
patient cannot be saved must be cutout
32 x 32 they stand
in slide specimens lines //gris gris
then pasted and
photoshoped later //no no no no
Robert
Rauschenberg got his start with Dante too
a bunch of
illustrated cantos that won him recognition
got the 1964?
Venice Biennial
then picked a
fight with M. Cunningham the dancer
Jasper Johns his
lover
and he's been
slightly drunk political since
travelling to
china, chilie, russia indonesia?
<<ROCI>>
his visuals and
hunchback versace smile
//weapons for
peace
don't know Ezra
Pound at all
"Salo"
by piero pasolini has my love
a fetching
carrot, // Douglas
"If you love
your fun, die for it!" --Jello
Biafra
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:22:09 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> I agree
words can be nothing/everything holy (as Ginsberg would
> apparently
define), but I still must hold onto a societal view of
>
"beauty" (and a few other choice words). beauty needs to go for a ride
> with me for
a while longer. this I must see. [[oh..exhale..]] why is
> it so hard
to give up words? they answer so many
questions.
>
> "what are words for, when nobody
listens any more for
> [....] there's no use talking
all..." [missing persons]
>
What you will
find is that if you think about a word long enough it will
lose all of it's
meaning. It will become frayed, and
fragmented, and
suddenly you will
be thrust into the potentional absurdity of the
collective
unconscious. You will see where Kerouac
and Joyce were going,
the place where
one word means a million things at many levels, syllables
thrown together
in that vast space we call the mind, charting the course
of history and
eternity in one word, one moment. And
then you will start
writing that way,
in the language of the unconscious and people will
spend years of
their lives picking out all the inherent meaning in the
way words and
syllables are run together.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:25:44 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: high coup (haiku)
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> the sweet
smell of summer leaves,
> dark green
and steaming in the sunny, buzzing air.
>
> m
haiku to you,
too!
Lovers
sandwiching
My peanutbutter
lust wants
Welch's grape jelly
:)
barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:30:12 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
In-Reply-To: <33B8BD1E.273A@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
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<<merde,
I'm late for work!>>
At 1:17 AM -0700
7/1/97, _____ Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> also...I am sure I could get a Beat
chat room set up at optichat for
> folks that
wanted to talk...but there is a cursing filter...so in order
> to truly
curse, you have to do so creatively.
cool. chickenheads,
prepare your engines!!
> barb
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:33:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Eating the book of life (was Re: Whitman)
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
>Note to
myself: explore book covers of beats. first editions ---->
> etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
> bind...
;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
> room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
> lines of Ginsberg come to mind, [from Howl]
"with the absolute heart of
the poem of life
butchered out of their own bodies good to eat a thousand
years." Feeding on the body of life is a common
thread in much modern
literature,
probably dating back to the reference of communion as feeding
on the body of
Christ. Joyce was big on feeding on the
body, that each
of us is
connected to collective humanity in this way, feeding on the
the dead, finding
there life/work which enlightens us, and connects each
of us one to the
next.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:24:21 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: burroughs story
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The other
evening, after consuming my usual dinner of scrambled eggs
smothered in
Gib's Nuclear Hell Hot Sauce, I had a dream that my wife and
I met AG (in his
late-life form) in the basement of a New York City
Firehouse--seemingly
by appointment. Every time I began to
ask him a
question he'd get
up and walk to another room in this tiny building
decorated in
early 1960's naugahide. After about
twenty repetitions of
this he morphed
into a younger version of himself (India/Paris days) and
said simply
"I have to go now" and I woke up.
Any Amateur
Freudian Psychoanalysts (as opposed to Bournemouth and
District Amateur
Gynecologists) wanna take a crack at that one?
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:34:23 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: fear and loathing
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>Actually,
Depp and Cox had quite a difference in opinion of how the book
>should be
filmed, and Cox has been dropped. Last time I heard filming is
>now set for
early July with Terry Gilliam doing the honors.
I know Gilliam does a wonderful job and
has directed outside his
"Genesis" but I just can't help
thinking of a HST/Python marriage:
Act 1, Scene 1: HST and the crazed Samoan at 125 mph on 15
between
Baker and the NV line. Pan to rear view of convertible as giant
green
foot stomps convertible to bits and
topless queen Elizabeth II appears
over butte to left, googly eyes all
agoggle.
Don't trust the movie biz....filming may
start today but debut may be
in 2001!
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:53:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: burroughs story
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yes, you weren't
running fast enough.
IMHO, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: MATT HANNAN[SMTP:MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 6:24 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re[2]: burroughs story
>
>The other
evening, after consuming my usual dinner of scrambled eggs
>smothered in
Gib's Nuclear Hell Hot Sauce, I had a dream that my wife and
>I met AG (in
his late-life form) in the basement of a New York City
>Firehouse--seemingly
by appointment. Every time I began to
ask him a
>question he'd
get up and walk to another room in this tiny building
>decorated in
early 1960's naugahide. After about
twenty repetitions of
>this he
morphed into a younger version of himself (India/Paris days) and
>said simply
"I have to go now" and I woke up.
>
>Any Amateur
Freudian Psychoanalysts (as opposed to Bournemouth and
>District
Amateur Gynecologists) wanna take a crack at that one?
>
>love and
lilies,
>
>matt
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:35:56 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
would be cool to
do beat chat, let's do it! Thx, Barb
Ciao,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:28:18 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: message play
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note to
myself: find URL of article originally
published in Monday's LA
Times.
Why Men Just Have
to Monkey Around <<snippet>>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=
by Kathleen
Kelleher (special to the Times)
<<
Chimpanzees-the
best human anlogue because they must cooperate to combat
common enemies
and compete for females and rank-do something called
"message
play."
"Instead of
beating up on an adolescent male, an adult male starts very
roughly tickling.
. . playfully slapping him and shoving him but giving
him the message
that he _could_ beat him up if he wanted to," says Frans
de Waal, a
primatologist at the Yerkes center and author of several
books on
primates.
"It is
turning tension into play. It is a bit
like tension between guys
and they turn it
into a joke."
>>
Douglas <<who never bit anybody's ear
off....>>
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:33:36 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: gregory corso?
Content-Type:
text
Ksenija,
The Corso line
you were asking about is from line 15 of Corso's
poem
"Bomb"; in English it reads," To die by cobra is not to die
by bad
pork." "Bomb" was originally published as a broadside, and
later was collected
in _The Happy Birthday of Death_ as a foldout
in that volume,
surely one of the few books of poetry ever published
with a
centerfold.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
7/1/97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:50:26 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: cc:
gnicosia@earthlink.net, Diane DeRooy <MemBabe@aol.com>
In-Reply-To:
<970630143115_-461032658@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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Diane,
This is a fact.
Ph.D. candidate
from the University of Michigan, writing her dissertation
on Keroauc, was
denied access to the collection Gerry Sold to U.Mass.
If Martha Mayo
stated that anyone has access to the collection of research
material that was
used to write MEMORY BABE: A CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY OF JACK
KEROAUC, she is
not telling the truth.
j grant
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
372,191
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:31:45 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Kill Time, Save Vegetables
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I think I smell
treble beats.
I just wanted to
let the group know that I know God and Satan personally and
they've asked me
to clear up a few things here. They're
actually really
good
friends. They made up a long time ago.
Satan and I have this running bit where he
flies by my balconey and says,
"See you
soon James." And I say, "Yeah
sure Satan you joker you." And I
look out at the
lake of fire and the folks gnashing their teeth and crying
and I laugh.
God takes me to heaven about every three
weeks. Don't get me wrong, we
talk in between
visits. When I go to heaven, God and I
get drunk and we
talk about you
guys and humanity in general.
Occasionally, other species
pop up but that's
usually when we're really out of it and we're bored. God
always asks me
what I wanna do and I say, "I dunno, whadda you wanna do?"
and he says,
"I dunno man, I've done everything."
We usually end up jerking
ourselves from
one edge of the universe to another and God'll say, "Okay,
we're here. Now we're here. Now we're over here. Oh.
Now we're here."
Then we go back to heaven and God lets me
make fun of Christ. I say
things like,
"Jesus Jesus, you shoulda, you know, made yourself tough as
nails. Or if you didn't wanna do that, you shoulda
told everybody not to
start a religion
based on what you said because there's these guys with
really big hats
and they tell everybody what you REALLY meant.
I mean, you
shoulda thought
ahead man. Why didn't you do a little
writing yourself?
You know, make
the message neon and eternal or something." And Christ
invariably says,
"I was just doing what Dad wanted."
And God says, "When
are you going to
grow up? Jesus Christ Jesus
Christ." Blashpemy is allowed
in heaven by the
way. God's always saying,
"Medammit, time for another
earthquake."
If anyone's interested, I'll relate more of
what's been going on with God,
Satan and other
religious figures and me later.
James M.
"I'm
dying. I hope you're dying too."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:44:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
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At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
I have swapped
mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
> I ran a 411
search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me.
I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
mean youd on't
exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
not exist.
I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
Charles Plymell: No
matches
James Stauffer: 23
Matches
Jack Kerouac: No
Match
William S.
Burroughs: No match
So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
www.four11.com?
Hardly.
> So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
have fired you
long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
and one *I* have
corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
things.
SO before you go
doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
look her up in
the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
such "the
lawyer".
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:54:32 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: To: jo
grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
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jo grant wrote:
>
> Diane,
>
> This is a
fact.
>
> Ph.D. candidate
from the University of Michigan, writing her dissertation
> on Keroauc,
was denied access to the collection Gerry Sold to U.Mass.
>
> If Martha
Mayo stated that anyone has access to the collection of research
> material
that was used to write MEMORY BABE: A CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY OF JACK
> KEROAUC, she
is not telling the truth.
>
> j grant
Jo, she was not
the only scholar. Others have been
turned away. This
is the standard
line given out by Mayo, but reality is different.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:10:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Next in the FireWalk line ... LONG
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some have shown interest
in these ... if you're not one feel free to
delete quickly.
>From FireWalk
Thru Madness, copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
THE HISTORY OF
TIME -- OR -- THE TIME OF HISTORY
OR
HUMAN VEGETABLE
TEACHES HISTORY TO COLLEGE STUDENTS
The wild eyed
freshman walked upstairs to his history class.
First day
of college one
class down one professor dead in the shadow of the wild
eyed boy=92s
mind. As he sat in the room waiting for
the class to begin
he felt a strange
sense of accomplishment - after years he was the first
the very first
student that answered the Poetry Professor=92s question.=20
It was also
strange because it left him feeling somewhat alienated,
somewhat isolated
- well actually completely alienated and isolated
because he was
different than all the other students - and it wasn=92t
just the students
in that particular class. He was
different from all
the students who
had brought their answers to the worn poetry professor
year after year.
He felt like an
alien transported to wake the college from it=92s
intellectual
slumber - shock the world out of it=92s one dimensional slee=
p
walking
existence. The wild eyed boy realized
that the professor was
talking in the
front of the room and he=92s saying something about
Santayana
something about =93Those who refuse to learn from the past are
doomed to repeat
it.=94 He=92s up there mumbling about
doom thought the
wild eyed boy but
doesn=92t know anything about doom. What
has this
middle aged man ever
known about doom? The wild eyed boy
began to feel
the irritation
building inside him the irritation that mean the alien
death force he
harbored in his soul was beginning to surface. =20
He raised his
hand and asked: =93Would it help a starving child in Somali=
a
to read a book
about past famines, or perhaps a history of nutrition?=94=20
The professor
looked annoyed in his cordouroy jacket with patches on the
sleeves. Where did this question come from? Students didn=92t ask real
questions. Not in a history class. Something about the boy=92s tone
annoyed him and
tempted him kept him from brushing off the comment. It
was asi if the
rest of the class disappeared onlyy the middle-aged man
with all those
books in his mind and the wild eyed boy with his angst
stood facing each
other mind vs. mind, soul vs. soul a battle to the
death.
=93The history
you teach is fiction,=94 said the wild eyed boy. =93All y=
ou=92re
doing is telling
his story as opposed to her story of the ant=92s story o=
r
some other
guy=92s story or some other woman=92s story.
What makes you
think that the
books you read are any truer than some Louis L=92Amour
Western?=94 He paused for a moment to witness the
professor=92s response=
.=20
=93The history
you study is just an extended Senate Confirmation Hearing
with Clarence
Thomas telling his story and Anita Hill telling her story
and the witnesses
telling their stories and a bunch of old white
straight males
are sitting in the front holding court to decide which
story will be
called the truth. Woody Guthrie knew
that the true
History wasn=92t
what made it to the history books what made it to the Ne=
w
York Times - the
true history was in the boxcars - it was Whitman asking
Woody to travel
America and tell what he saw and that=92s what Woody did =
-
And he heard
Irving Berlin=92s =91God Bless America=92 and he said that
shouldn=92t pass
as history and he wrote =91God Blessed America=92 and th=
en
called it =91This
Land is Your Land=92 and he wrote =91you can only write=
what
you see=92 on the
bottom of the page and it became the alternative
national anthem
-- but even it wasn=92t the truth - some of the verses
were ignored, the
capitalists hid the radical verses - just saved the
pretty ones - and
U2 tried to excavate in the shared vision thing but I
don=92t know if
the project was an archaeoogical success.
So you want me
to believve that
history protects us in the future and if it was true,
if it wasn=92t
fiction I might agree -- but what makes you believe George
Washington really
crossed the Delaware or Jesus Christ really died on a
cross or even
existed? Is it because a book told you
so. If that naive
faith is all you
have to protect you from the doom that lurks in the
future then I fear
for your soul old man.=94
He stared at the
history professor who was silent -- he was blank. But
he seemed to
still have life buried somewhere inside him so the wild
eyed boy waited
patiently -- and he waited, and he waited --
occasionally he
caught a glimpse of the student class President across
the room staring
at the boy like he stared at Crazy Eddy or his little
sister when she
told him about their Uncle and sexual abuse and some
would call it
rape - but why bother.
The professor
finally spoke. =93How would you predict
the future, if not
with the aid of
history?=94 =20
The wild eyed boy
stared at him, not flinching for a moment.
=93You=92re=
so
fucking
presumptious to believe you can predict the future anyway. Or
for believing that
the future is even predictable or that anything is
predictable. What in your history could make you expect
that we=92d be
engaged in this
mental bloodsport right now, this instant, the present?=20
And what makes
you think that even if things are predictable, that what
you call historiy
is any more accurate, any more =91scientific=92 than Ta=
rot
Cards or Ouija
Boards or Astrology? Don=92t you get it
old man. That
thing you call
history isn=92t the Truth -- it isn=92t History with a
capital H --
it=92s just some misguided excuse for one snapshot of the
billion possible
snapshots of a feew points in time. And
studying all
these wars
doesn=92t seem to make us not fight in them.
It makes as much
sense to say that
our preoccupation with war in our history textbooks
perpetuates this
war mentality like a self-fulfilling prophecy and we=92d
do better (or at
lest as well) to roll some dice or call a 1-900 Psychic
line.=94
=93So you don=92t
believe in History?=94 the professor responded.
His
response was
almost immediate, almost presumptious, as if he thought
some intellectual
trick -- a mind trap he=92d learned in graduate school
when his
professor trapped him for being inquisitive -- was enough to
silence this
strange creature that was passing off as a college
freshman.
The wild eyed boy
recognized the simplicity of the response, he realized
that the
middle-aged man had not listened to him, that the professor was
afraid to look
into the mirror of his soul and see a big sign saying:
=93FRAUD=94, and
was trying to protect himself with old tricks like a che=
ap
magician.
=93I believe in
History, but it isn=92t whay you call history.
You=92re =
so
caught in your
cage that you can=92t even listen to another angle -- see
another truth. What are you afraid of old man? Afraid of losing or
maybe even
learning from a wild eyed freshman?
Would that be so
horrible? -- Career ending/Soul wrenching blow to learn
something from
a student. I believe in history but not what you call history. This is
history right
now. And what=92s happening at the
Casey=92s over in Hills=
,
Iowa, that=92s
history. Your brand of history has some
kind of
accredidation or
application attached to it like for my life to be
meaningful I have
to make history and that I have to try out for the
great play of
history like trying out for some stupid high school
musical that
nobody in the audience understands because they=92re only
there out of
obligation to their children who are only in the play to
please their
parents. What makes you think that
you=92re less
historically
meaningful than George Washington? Does
it make you
insecure to look
in the mirror and not see George Washington?
If I
write a book of
history or a movie and call it =93It=92s a Wonderful Life=
,=94
and let you star
and let you almost jump off the bridge because of your
insecurities,
your belief in history and let Clarence save you will that
make you feel
worthwhile? Or will you wait to to read
the movie
reviews? Instead of living through old dead men, dead
on black and
white paper -- a
few pictures to try and prove something -- try living
through
yourself. Shave your head. Get a tatoo.
Run through the
streets naked and
see if anyone notices and if you care.
Learn to live
as if you are the
characters in your prized history books and you=92ll do
well. Or deal with the fact that you=92re just a
speck of matter in the
Universe that
doesn=92t amount to much of anything but what you decided t=
o
make for
yourself. Maybe then you can be happ0y
and stop terrorizing
freshmen term
after term making them think that they aren=92t as importan=
t
as these
=91historical=92 figures.=94
The history
professor now recognized that he faced a formidable
opponent. This wild eyed boy -- fire of Jupiter flaming
out like bolts
of lightning from
the Heavens -- staring at him questioning his
legitimacy. For years such a question had not even been
considered by
the blurry eyed
students who pass by his desk each term.
For years his
legitimacy rested
in his position, his degrees, of course he knows more
than us freshman
because he=92s in a position to know all that
information. The wild eyed boy seemed to see through this
mirage
realizing that
anyone could be in this position that teaching was really
idiotic in many
ways. And he realized that his degrees
and honors meant
nothing to this
student because the boy was questioning all the classes
represented by
those degrees by questioning this one moment in this one
class. If he demonstrates that my class is a fraud --
for a moment --
he may expose the
big fraud of the whole degree system.
This student
was digging
deeper than any other in his sixteen years of teaching. He
was questioning
the professor=92s entire reason for believing -- his
reason for
being. It wasn=92t a question of his
particular beliefs those
would be easy to
defend in combat. The wild eyed boy was
questioning
the reason of it
-- the sanity of it. He was saying that
the premise on
which the professor=92s
entire existence was built was nothing but
shifting
sand. It was with this shaky foundation
that the professor
turned to the boy
and asked:
=93So if you
believe in history, only a different history than mine,
-- What is the
essence of History?=94
=93It=92s about
time,=94 the wild eyed boy replied. For
a minute the
professor thought
the student was scolding him for taking so long to get
around to
questioning the essentials and he waited for the student to
continue. Then he realized that it was the student=92s
answer. The
essence of
history, as this student perceived it, was time.
The professor
froze there for an historical moment -- an historical
instant. In that one momenthe left his body into the
collective mind of
his unconscious
and from there he turned to look over his shoulder and
there before him
was all of history -- all there at once -- everything
staring at him.
In his normal
state of mind he would have thought this impossible. How
could all of
history be present to him in one instant -- in one moment.=20
But he was
experiencing it and so he could understand all that came
before, in its
wholeness and he could see all that was now and from this
atemporal vision
the collage of this thing called history projected the
future into his
mind. And finally he learned what
Santayana meant.
He was repeating
history term after term doomed to the same mundane
existence because
he refused to turn and face history, to look at the
historical
instant and now that he had seen the vision he should return
and learn from it
-- Teach others to learn from it, in a meaningful way,
in an essential
way -- teach the truth about history, that history is
the interval
between an instant and a moment and all of history is
contained
therein.
The middle aged
professor woke from his dream in a cold sweat.
He was
disoriented, but
soon realized that he=92d slept through his alarm. He
had fifteen
minutes until his first class of the term.
He had stayed up
late preparing
for the first day=92s lecture. It was
fairly commonplace
for the dirst day
of class to be devoted to preliminary procedural
matters -- a
brief description of the course, the ritual dispensing of
the syllabus --
signing add and drop slips and returning to the office
and home early.
This term the
professor had decided that the first day required a
lecture. The reason, he believed, for student apathy
was rooted in the
tone of the class
that first day. The introduction to the
class is of a
stale administrative
course for academic credit paid for in cash.
All
of these
considerations completely destroyed the importance of the
content of the
material to be presented in this particular class. It
was primarily the
same as any other class regardless of the subject.=20
Any disagreements
or disparities between classes clearly focused only on
procedural
matters.
The Professor
decided to change that. On the first day
of class he
would introduce
history -- what it is, why it is so important, so
essential to our
lives. He=92d begun with the famous
quotation =93Those =
who
choose to ignore
history are doomed to repeat it.=94 From
here the
lecture went on
for nearly twelve pages illustrating the hazards of
historical
ignorance. The historically intelligent,
the historically
aware, the
historically conscious, individual can see past the blur of
everyday events
at the archetypal plots -- life-scripts -- that are
played out day-in
and day-out by people who don=92t even know that they
are in the play.
=93All the
World=92s a stage and I am but a player on it=94 the professor
thinks and he
explains to the students in the lecture that learning to
play at history
is the test of understanding of knowledge just like in
any other
endeavor. The historical character can
see the separate play
outside the ones
which occupy most people=92s time. The
historical
character alters
the present within the interior play by shifting
through the plots
and actions in the larger play. One must
possess
historical awareness,
historical consciousnes, historical Be-coming to
become a figure
in the larger plane of history. =20
As he entered the
room carrying a stack of papers and the notes for his
lecture scrawled
on diner napkins from late night coffee the dream
returned to the
middle-aged professor. He was wearing
his new corduoroy
jacket with the
patched sleeves. The nightmare
returned. The entire
dream returned
and he saw the wild eyed boy standing over him and he
knew that he was
a fraud.
He handed out the
syllabus, asked if there were any questions, signed
some add and drop
slips, walked downstairs to his office, shut the door,
turned on the
radio to hear Carlos Santana playing God Bless America on
a forthcoming,
historical patriotic album. Berlin vs.
Guthrie. Germany
vs.
Oklahoma. in Football or War or is there
a difference? Of course
there is he
thought and said he=92d take Germany in war but Oklahoma woul=
d
kick their ass in
football.=20
His mind drifted
further into the past and present.
Five hours later
another professor stopped by to ask about a signature
on a travel
voucher for their trip to the convention last week. He
found the
middle-aged history professor still in his corouroy jacket
staring blankly
and smiling blankly and completely unaware of the
activities in his
physical surroundings.
They took him to
a hospital I=92m told. They said he
never recovered.
Occasionally he
mutters something about the wild eyed boy and it is all
here, this one
moment contains it all at once. He was
right -- time is
the essential
component, transcend time - escape the quality of
temporality for
an instant and you can see the history folding and
unfolding and
repeating and skipping lice dice or domino=92s ....
and he goes on and
on and the nurses just walk by without even looking
surprised by the
insane patter from the retired old man.
And he tells
them he=92s a
professor but nobody believes him....he=92s a crazy man. T=
hey
think - sure,
he=92s a professor. Better double the
Haldol and get out
the leather for
this one says Lurch as he reads the description of
tonight=92s
shift. =93It looks like you=92re all
going to finally get to=
meet
the wild eyed
boy. Merry Chirstmas.=94
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:17:17 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: To:
"Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Lisa M. Rabey
wrote:
>
> At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> >Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
>
> I have
swapped mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
>
> > I ran a
411 search
> >and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my email
address and got me.
>
> I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
> in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
> mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
> work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
> list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
> not exist.
>
> I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches
> James Stauffer: 23
Matches
> Jack Kerouac: No
Match
> William S.
Burroughs: No match
> So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
>
www.four11.com? Hardly.
>
> > So, I
> >am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
> >from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
> >a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
> >and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
> >post.
>
> As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
> have fired
you long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
> and one *I*
have corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
> things.
>
> SO before
you go doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
> mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
> look her up
in the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
> such
"the lawyer".
>
> ttfn.
>
> lisa
> --
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
> ************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to
hate you
> and yet that is all i can
show you.
> Nothing lasts forever.
-me
>
>
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
> mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
Lisa:
If your flame had
any information that was useable in it, I would use
it. I asked if anyone knew if she was a real
person. If you know her
and she is, then,
I would be more than happy to hear that.
I did not
claim to know the
answer, but if you would type in bocelts@scsn.net into
411 you would get
information on me, unless you have a different 411
search
engine. 411 is for the living who have
email address, phone
numbers etc, it is not prefect. Methinks you doth protest too much.
Maybe you just
don't like lawyers. Whatever it is, good
luck working
your problem out.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:25 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: To:
"Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Lisa M. Rabey
wrote:
>
> At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> >Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
>
> I have
swapped mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
>
> > I ran a
411 search
> >and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my email
address and got me.
>
> I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
> in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
> mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
> work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
> list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
> not exist.
>
> I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches
> James Stauffer: 23
Matches
> Jack Kerouac: No
Match
> William S.
Burroughs: No match
> So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
>
www.four11.com? Hardly.
>
> > So, I
> >am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
> >from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
> >a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
> >and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
> >post.
>
> As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
> have fired
you long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
> and one *I*
have corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
> things.
>
> SO before
you go doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
> mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
> look her up
in the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
> such
"the lawyer".
>
> ttfn.
>
> lisa
> --
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to hate you
> and yet that is all i can
show you.
> Nothing lasts forever.
-me
>
>
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
> mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
Lisa:
Funny you should
have written this missive to the list moments before I
received this
from an old college friend who is NOT on the beat list.
The message below
was sent at 18:28 but received after Lisa's post.
>Subject:
Four11 listing
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:28:39 +0000
>From: swhitney@gate.net
> To: bocelts@scsn.net (R. Bentz Kirby)
>Hi
Bentz, When I managed to find your home
page using a web search
>engine. I am
certain that I had previously searched for you via the
>Four11
directory services. I found out that the only way to find you
>in Four11 is
to enter " R "
for the first name and "
Kirby " for
>the last
name. If you want people to be able to
find you by Bentz
>Kirby then
you might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
>alternate
first name field.
<snip>
--
Funny how poetry
is in motion on the www sometimes, ain't it!
;-)
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:45:50 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Four11 listing
Comments: To:
swhitney@gate.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
swhitney@gate.net
wrote:
>
> Hi
Bentz, When I managed to find your home
page using a web search
> engine. I am
certain that I had previously searched for you via the
> Four11
directory services. I found out that the only way to find you
> in Four11 is
to enter " R "
for the first name and "
Kirby " for
> the last
name. If you want people to be able to
find you by Bentz
> Kirby then
you might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
> alternate
first name field.
> I was trying to figure out how in the
world you got an email from
> Mike Miller
so soon today, before I had emailed him your address,
> and finally
figured it out when I visited my Guestbook page and
> realized
Mike got your email address there. There are 6 of us online
> now, hope to
find more. Later Steven
>
> Steven
Whitney Naples FL.
> (
swhitney@gate.net ) or ( nfn00805@gator.naples.net )
> Home
Page http://gate.net/~swhitney/ or
> http://naples.net/~nfn00805
> If I am
online you can reach me with WebChat via the link on my Homepage
Steve:
Thanks for the
message, when I get to work tomorrow, I will check to see
what time that
your message was sent and what time Mike's was sent. I
guess it depends
on the routing that your email has to go through, I
guess. Your message to me about 411 was very
timely. So, I am posting
a copy of this email to you on the beat literature
list. I'll explain
later if you want
to know. BTW, I was looking at our
annual today at
work. Someone asked if I really used to weigh only
145. Saw a picture
of you guys
getting on the bus to go to Nationals.
Man, I may scan that
and post in on my
www site for the track and field list to get to know
you better! ;-)
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:50:02 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
My, my such a
rabid response for a rather innocuous e-mail from Bentz...
Since this is not
you personally being drawn under question, why so excited?
Also, how do you
know that she's membabe? How do I know
that you're not one
and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her posting.
How do you know for certain she's a she, have
you heard "her" voice, seen a
picture? Have you
seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
coffee....
Since there is a
controversy, it seems to me that it's good for people to
question events
that might have an effect on the recovery of stolen items as
well as the
mis-handling of the irreplaceable archives of Jack Kerouac's work.
I'm sorry, Lisa,
but your e-mail seems suspect to me... I
would prefer to be
wrong on this,
but at this point it certainly doesn't ring true.
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Lisa M. Rabey
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 6:44 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
I have swapped
mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
> I ran a 411
search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me.
I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
mean youd on't
exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
not exist.
I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
Charles Plymell: No
matches
James Stauffer: 23
Matches
Jack Kerouac: No
Match
William S.
Burroughs: No match
So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
www.four11.com?
Hardly.
> So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
have fired you
long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
and one *I* have
corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
things.
SO before you go
doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
look her up in
the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
such "the
lawyer".
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:13:26 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: apology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
I apologize to
the list for my overreaction to Lisa's flame.
I made two
posts off topic
in reply, and again apologize. Tonight was my 14th
wedding
anniversary, and I put my 12 year old son on a plane to spend
two weeks with my
sister and her husband. I have a sense
of seperation
anxiety and am
having a hard time dealing with all of this.
So, if I
was out of line
in my three responses to Lisa, I apologize.
On the other
hand, it seemed very poetic that while Lisa was busy
flaming me about
411 that a friend who found me for the first time since
1976, was writing
me about finding me on 411 and suggesting that I add
Bentz to the
listing. To me that was poetry. One of the last things
Steve and I did
together, was to go on a road trip from Charleston, SC
to Columbia, SC
to see Bruce and the E Street Band on the Born to Run
tour. They played a 4000 seat arena in Columbia and
it was just before
BTR broke out big
time. Now the circle is closed some 21
years later by
the www and
411. In my mind, very cool.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:32:52 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B9BA2D.187E8541@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<snip>
>Lisa:
>
>If your flame
had any information that was useable in it, I would use
>it.
It wasn't a
"flame" it was a critique. You stated that because the person
could not be
found by www.four11.com, the person could not exist. I pointed
out to you that
just because someone was NOT listed on www.four11.com does
not mean that
they do not exist, hence my examples.
> I asked if
anyone knew if she was a real person. If
you know her
>and she is,
then, I would be more than happy to hear that.
I did not
>claim to know
the answer, but if you would type in bocelts@scsn.net into
>411 you would
get information on me, unless you have a different 411
>search
engine. 411 is for the living who have
email address, phone
>numbers
etc, it is not prefect. Methinks you doth protest too much.
me thinks you
jump to the gun too much. You were ready to haul membabe to
the stake and
burn her because of an incident in the past that occurred
with *supposed*
fake aol.com addresses.
>
>Maybe you
just don't like lawyers. Whatever it is,
good luck working
>your problem
out.
Erm, why is it if
you make a comment about something that does not agree
with yours that
suddenly that someone has "problems". Now, that is mature.
ttfn.
Lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror: http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:37:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B9BFD5.D67D2695@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Before you get
your accolades, why don't you READ what I wrote:
You wrote:
>>Hi
Bentz, When I managed to find your home
page using a web search
>>engine. I
am certain that I had previously searched for you via the
>>Four11
directory services. I found out that the only way to find you
>>in Four11
is to enter " R "
for the first name and "
Kirby " for
>>the last
name. If you want people to be able to
find you by Bentz
>>Kirby
then you might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
>>alternate
first name field.
><snip>
I wrote:
> I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
> in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
> mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
> work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
> list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
> not exist.
>
I did a search on
R. Bentz Kirby, Bentz Kirby, and the last name of Kirby.
Nothing. Your
"Friend" found you by R. Kirby. So, I did *NOT* find you
because of the
string pattern, its was not boolean enough. So *I* did not
find because of
such.
And if you READ
what your friend said, he says 'if you want people to be
able to find you
by Bentz
Kirby then you
might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
alternate first
name field."
So you can stop
talking about poetry in motion on the www, because we were
both
"right".
ttfn.
Lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:53:57 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sherri wrote:
> Also, how do
you know that she's membabe? How do I
know that you're not one
> and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her posting.
> How do you know for certain she's a she, have
you heard "her" voice, seen a
> picture?
Have you seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
> coffee....
>
How do we know
that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
then if they are
who they say they are. For all I know
Benz Kirby is a
stage name for
Gerry Nicosia. I have never either
one. Maybe "sherri"
is a complete
illusion.
The whole list
may just be one big multiple personality illusion.
I cannot help but
think that there is something about this debate that
produces
dementia. It's a trip to the twilight
zone. Everytime it
surfaces the
strangest allegations start to be made.
So far we have
Lisa and Tony
Triglio who have exchanged e-mails on other topics with
this person. Somewhere out in cyberspace there is a
"membabe" who was
interested enough
in beat stuff to do a Ginsberg tribute on AOL.
Such
an entity might
logically have an interest in the estate question. But
somehow if this
"person" disagrees with the Nicosia/Kirby position in
this matter they
graduate to being part of the evil Sampas gang,
with
its tentacles
reaching from Lowell to Seattle. Funny,
isn't it.
J Stauffer
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:44:16 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707020255290821@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:50 AM
7/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>My, my such a
rabid response for a rather innocuous e-mail from Bentz...
>
>Since this is
not you personally being drawn under question, why so excited?
>Also, how do
you know that she's membabe? How do I
know that you're not one
>and the same person
as "Diane De Rooy"? She didn't
state that in her
posting.
> How do you
know for certain she's a she, have you heard "her" voice, seen a
>picture? Have
you seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
>coffee....
Well according to
your own theory Sherri, seeing as I never spoke to JD
Salinger, seen a
picture of him, or met him, does that mean he does not exist?
>
>Since there
is a controversy, it seems to me that it's good for people to
>question
events that might have an effect on the recovery of stolen items as
>well as the
mis-handling of the irreplaceable archives of Jack Kerouac's
work.
>
>
>I'm sorry,
Lisa, but your e-mail seems suspect to me...
I would prefer to be
>wrong on
this, but at this point it certainly doesn't ring true.
And here is email
I got from Membabe herself:
X-POP3-Rcpt:
lisar@serv01
Return-Path:
MemBabe@aol.com
From:
MemBabe@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar
1997 00:38:23 -0500 (EST)
To:
MemBabe@aol.com
Subject: beat
generation chatroom updates
Note: you are one
of 65 people receiving this letter. If you don't want to
continue to be
one of 65 people receiving mail from me, please let me know
right away. You
know how expensive postage is these days....
Hey, everybody...
Life goes too
fast and I fall behind too quickly. Never entrust me with these
important tasks;
I'm too easily overextended...
ANNOUNCEMENTS.................................................................
<snip>
And considering
that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list here
personally, met
them, had coffee with them nor shared in their lives, which
includes you
sherri, maybe you do not exist either.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:54:51 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
James Stauffer
wrote:
. But
> somehow if
this "person" disagrees with the Nicosia/Kirby position in
> this matter
they graduate to being part of the evil Sampas gang, with
> its
tentacles reaching from Lowell to Seattle.
Funny, isn't it.
Well James, I am
not Gerry Nicosia and I certainly don't agree with
everything he
says. But I also am interested in facts
seeing the light
of day. If Gerry is wrong about something, then prove
it out. No
problem. But what if there is a conspiracy to damage
Gerry? How do you
know there is not? So, let the thread die as it was before the
other
post started me
up again. I will do my best to do so.
As Jo Grant has
already pointed out tonight, if Martha Mayo did make
those statements,
they are not true. And the real problem
is the lack
of care for the
audio tapes, and barring people from listening to them.
So just because
you disagree, or think Gerry sees a conspiracy behind
every tree,
doesn't meant that one does not exist.
Maybe Gerry just
sees more than
there are?
In any event, I
hope this dies a death right now and will do my best to
let it die.
Let's get back to
some vital discussion of vital literature.
How about his
topic. Poets view and treatment of
God. Let's start with
Ferlinghetti's
new book, A Far Rockaway of the Heart.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:09:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B9D0D5.42E2@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't think an
anonymous person would set up a website on their webpage
dedicated to
Kerouac.
http://members.aol.com/membabe
But then again,
im a smart ass, what do I know.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:27:01 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
My point exactly,
Lisa...
I just think that
perhaps the whole thing should be looked at very carefully
and objectively
so the truth can come out. The last
thing I want to see is a
great writer's
archives lost to the public, among other things...
Btw, I didn't
mean to be offensive... just wanted you
to consider the
possibility that
you may have been or are being duped ...
Let's let it die
a noble death here <hands Lisa the
olive branch, and holds
out her
hand>...
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Lisa M. Rabey
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 8:44 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
At 02:50 AM
7/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>My, my such a
rabid response for a rather innocuous e-mail from Bentz...
>
>Since this is
not you personally being drawn under question, why so excited?
>Also, how do
you know that she's membabe? How do I
know that you're not one
>and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her
posting.
> How do you
know for certain she's a she, have you heard "her" voice, seen a
>picture? Have
you seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
>coffee....
Well according to
your own theory Sherri, seeing as I never spoke to JD
Salinger, seen a
picture of him, or met him, does that mean he does not exist?
>
>Since there
is a controversy, it seems to me that it's good for people to
>question
events that might have an effect on the recovery of stolen items as
>well as the
mis-handling of the irreplaceable archives of Jack Kerouac's
work.
>
>
>I'm sorry,
Lisa, but your e-mail seems suspect to me...
I would prefer to be
>wrong on
this, but at this point it certainly doesn't ring true.
And here is email
I got from Membabe herself:
X-POP3-Rcpt:
lisar@serv01
Return-Path:
MemBabe@aol.com
From:
MemBabe@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar
1997 00:38:23 -0500 (EST)
To:
MemBabe@aol.com
Subject: beat
generation chatroom updates
Note: you are one
of 65 people receiving this letter. If you don't want to
continue to be
one of 65 people receiving mail from me, please let me know
right away. You
know how expensive postage is these days....
Hey, everybody...
Life goes too
fast and I fall behind too quickly. Never entrust me with these
important tasks;
I'm too easily overextended...
ANNOUNCEMENTS.................................................................
<snip>
And considering
that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list here
personally, met
them, had coffee with them nor shared in their lives, which
includes you
sherri, maybe you do not exist either.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:48:42 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: who am i?
I've spent the
last 46 years asking myself that...
Is this the usual
sort of response on newsgroups? I'm relatively new to this
and don't
honestly know.
An excerpt from
my post:
<<I've been
in touch with people who could only be described as secondary to
the life of jack
kerouac, asking questions and assembling a feature story.
There are also
many people I have not met or interviewed. But two of the
people I have
interviewed by phone and through thousands of words in letters
are Rod Anstee
and Gerry Nicosia. I had the opportunity to form opinions
about both these
men independently, si>>
I assume both Rod
and Gerry would vouch for my existence, and the fact that
I'm female. I
also have a listed phone number in Seattle and would certainly
be interested in
hearing from anyone who had anything of value to contribute
to my own
research, or to make factual corrections.
If, at any time I
discover I've been misled, or that I am in any way wrong
about what I've
found to be true, I will be overjoyed to make a corrective
post. I should
think everyone would be, in the interest of truth.
Please don't duke
it out on the list, though. Please feel free to address me
directly at
either of my email addresses (membabe@aol.com or ddrooy@aol.com)
or by phone here
in Seattle. I'm more than happy to respond, up to the point
where it would
become a violation of my privacy.
ddr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:01:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: automatic writing
Comments: To:
stand666@bitstream.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
In a message
dated 97-07-01 12:08:32 EDT, you write:
<< When
I first started writing I borrowed Andre
Breton's method of automatic
writing=97I think Jack K called it spontaneous
prose or whatever. He
must've read Breton at some point; Celine,
etc.
>>
yes, i think automatic writing is great
for getting a whole lot of s=
hit
out and
juxtaposing things you normally wouldn't if you thought about it =
too
consciously...but
then afterwards it help to "weed out" the boring crappy
stuff....
some people may say that makes it less
'authentic', but I think they=
're
just not willing
to admit that some of their thoughts might be boring and=
not
worthy of others'
reading them.
automatic writing is an excellent
exercise, esp. if you have writer'=
s
block. First thing in the morning is best too,
because you're still unde=
r
the influence of
dreams.
---------------just
a thought-----------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:04:31 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: God <<still digging>>
Comments: To:
dcarter@together.net
In a message
dated 97-07-01 11:22:13 EDT, you write:
<< Can you even start to imagine what grasping
the wholeness of human
knowledge
and the universe in one instant would be like?
>>
ummm.......actually?.......yes!
---maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:53:35 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
i vote visions of
cody. never read it, never even thought
of reading it
before. i figure,
'what the hell' i might as well. never was much into
kerouac (on the
road was too much like my life, and i don't like reading
about myself
much! too boring)
so i will try it,
and perhaps i will say, "i do! i do! I Iike VOC! I like it
here, there, and
everywhere!"
---maya
ps: can someone
please tell WSB to stop sneaking into my dreans? It's really
distracting me. I
can't focus at work anymore. I keep
seeing his face. He
even made me sit
on his lap in one dream. I can't take it
any more. I mean,
he doesn't even
LIKE girls, right? What a creep!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:39:54 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.& then
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
i too, confess, i
found much to interest me in the recent controversy,
I percieved diane
to be sincere and much appreciated her post.
i
disagreed with
her assumptions, as the idea that no original material
was in the memory
babe archives.That didn't seeem likely to me.
I too
would like to see
someone visit and be able to take notes. I have had
experiance with a
library in missouri that had intervertantly lost half
of a small
collection , they lied and covered up and blamed the poor
artist for lying,
a big shot alum finally got involved and they finally
admitted that a
staff person had let someone take material home and when
it was returned
much was missing. Institutions are not as forthcoming as
one would hope..
I wish that i felt more secure about the memory babe
material but my
primary concern in that controversy was not the theft of
materials and
access to that collection (here i shout, pardon) IT IS THE
JK ARCHIVES.
Unhappily the only thing i could sense we could do is to
communicate to
all factors that jk material should be treated with
respect and be
watchful.
archive poem
the old horse
raises it head
once shot they
believed it dead
struggling it
rises
joins the ring of
ponies
riding the necronauts
in their circle
of fame.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:24:38 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Hi there,
I spoke with the creator of Optichat,
and he said he'd be glad to
create a room for
those with Beat interests. (awfully nice
of him)
Anyhow, he
maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
scroll...there
are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
no monitors..only
a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
fairly lucky in
being able to express my ideas without needing that
particular
word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
twisted way,
anyhow. The chat is fast there,
too...almost like irc.
The other option
is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
talk privately)
Well, I'm just acting on a suggestion I
saw earlier...I think a good
one. I'd like to see how you think/react/chat in
"real" time.
Dan also said if
someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
(if beta were
chosen) that would be just groovy.
Maybe those
interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
what folks think.
The address is http://www.optichat.com/
I will be in the
first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
left hand side of
the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
would be 10 East
Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
to do your own
math!). For now...lets meet in Babblemania
(seems sort
of Kerouac-like
anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
Thanks,
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:35 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Diane DeRooy: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970701184421.007c2300@smtp.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
RE: Diane De Rooy
I have
communicated with Diane on a number of occasions. She has been
working on a Jan
Kerouac article for quite some time, has had disagreements
with Gerry
Nicosia regarding Keroauc material, sources, etc. Diane ended up
very
"turned-off" by Gerry. Unfortunate IMO, but no big deal. Gerry's busy
and Diane was
taking up
Her latest post
states that Martha Mayo, Special Collections librarian says
anypone--with a
few days notice--can have access to the Memory Babe
Collection. Rod
Anstee, according to Diane, confirms this. Diane may
believe what they
tell her. I do not.
I know of
scholars who have been turned away.
On another note,
the recipe for Caesar salad dressing she sent me yesterday
looks like it
might be a winner. since it's my daughters favorite dressing
I'll let her be
the judge.
j grant
At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>>Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
>
>I have
swapped mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
>
>> I ran a
411 search
>>and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my email
address and got me.
>
>I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
>in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
>mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
>work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
>list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
>not exist.
>
>I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches
> James Stauffer: 23
Matches
> Jack Kerouac: No Match
> William S.
Burroughs: No match
>So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
>www.four11.com?
Hardly.
>
>> So, I
>>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>>post.
>
>
>As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
>have fired
you long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
>and one *I*
have corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
>things.
>
>SO before you
go doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
>mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
>look her up
in the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
>such
"the lawyer".
>
>ttfn.
>
>lisa
>--
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to hate
you
> and yet that is all i can show
you.
> Nothing lasts forever.
-me
>
>
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
> mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
313,599 visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:38:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: morning sickness
morning sickness
what cancerous
pregnancy ails me now?
I thought they
had beaten it out of me,
but it seems my
grotesque child
is still alive
and kicking.
Oh, i would that
I could expel it
instead of
suffering the rest of the term
but it's
tenacious like a tumor
and germinates
like a germ.
Im not talking
about the usual uterus
but a more
fertile womb
the blood-red
cavern within my skull
that will keep on
birthing until the tomb.
my mind is
aching...I think it will be soon!
(spontaneous poem
written between 10:30 and 10:34 am today wednesday)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:30:56 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
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<snips>
How do we know
that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
then if they are
who they say they are.
The whole list
may just be one big multiple personality illusion.
I cannot help but
think that there is something about this debate that
produces
dementia. It's a trip to the twilight
zone. Everytime it
surfaces the
strangest allegations start to be made.
graduate to being part of the evil Sampas
gang, with its tentacles
reaching from Lowell to Seattle. Funny, isn't it.
<end el snips>
Y'all have much more invested in this than
me, that's for sure. It
brings to mind some of the great events in
history:
"Mr. Reagan"
"Yes, Senator McCarthy"
"Are you a communist?"
or
"Why can't we all just get
along"
or, best put
Ginsberg (as Alvah Goldbook in DB) "I
know my redeemer liveth"
Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
(there, managed to work a Beat quote in
that covers two recent hot
topics on the list)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:49:33 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Diane
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Diane De Rooy:
Thank you for
your posts back channel. I have spoken
through email with
Jo Grant and
others who have quelled my unfounded suspions.
I hope that
you will continue
your research. I have reason to believe
that what
Mayo told you is
not necessarily true. But for now, it
does not matter.
Hopefully the
tapes can be protected and made available within the
parameters of the
law.
I apologize if my
query offended you. I did not intend to
do that. I
had hoped the
thread you raised had died and intend to let it die
myself.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:53:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: who am i?
In-Reply-To:
<970702004805_-858194005@emout12.mail.aol.com>
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Diane De Rooy:
welcome! you are a breath of fresh air here, and i am
delighted to see
that you wrote :
Please don't duke
it out on the list, though. Please feel free to address me
directly at
either of my email addresses (membabe@aol.com or ddrooy@aol.com)
or by phone here
in Seattle. I'm more than happy to respond, up to the point
where it would
become a violation of my privacy.
as flame wars
have erupted and engulfed the list, this last ration of
ridiculousness
re: your real/unreal presence only a small example.
like your style
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:53:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: summer reading update
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i vote for Cody.
at the same time, on my HST jag, i've drugged and drunk
meself through
fear and loathing in los vegas (i too failed to find the
american dream)
am now halfway
through hog heaven (hells angels) and
soon to be rolling in
the letters.
so if it's
visions of cody/first third
i'll keep up with
discussion as it unfolds.
gotta go, they're
at my door with timing chains and gallons of motor oil ..
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:57:15 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
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Sherri...once you
type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
go into the main
menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
them. Underneath will be a bar...click,hold,and
scroll to the room you
want. click on
it, and you're there! See you!
Sherri wrote:
>
> cool barb...
how does one access Babblemania? Sherri
>
> ----------
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Chat Site
>
> Hi there,
> I spoke with the creator of Optichat,
and he said he'd be glad to
> create a
room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> Anyhow, he
maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
>
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> fairly lucky
in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> particular
word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> twisted way,
anyhow. The chat is fast there,
too...almost like irc.
> The other
option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> talk
privately)
> Well, I'm just acting on a suggestion
I saw earlier...I think a good
> one. I'd like to see how you think/react/chat in
"real" time.
> Dan also
said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> (if beta
were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> Maybe those
interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> what folks
think.
> The address is
http://www.optichat.com/
>
> I will be in
the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> left hand
side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> would be 10
East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> to do your
own math!). For now...lets meet in
Babblemania (seems sort
> of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> Thanks,
> Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:03:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
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James,
My unofficial
calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead.
Should we
just go for it at
this point? What do you want to read?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:21:10 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: God <<still digging>>
In-Reply-To:
<970702010429_-991644834@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 10:04 PM -0700
7/1/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-07-01 11:22:13 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Can you even start to imagine
what grasping the wholeness of human
> knowledge
> and the universe in one instant would be
like? >>
>
> ummm.......actually?.......yes!
Maya, I've
decided you're ugly lookin..... <<laugh>> with my eyeballs
direcly at you
<<smirk>> ;-)
> ---maya
Douglas <<still laughin, I might be
dyin....>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:21:36 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
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At 10:01 PM -0700
7/1/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> automatic writing is an excellent
exercise, esp. if you have writer's
> block. First thing in the morning is best too,
because you're still under
> the
influence of dreams.
dreamed I was in
chicago, trying to track down some friends.
they'd all
moved, I had the
wrong apartments, or the city itself had changed. there
were hills where
I remembered none. there were fields of
weeds where there
should be
none. Who am I? cops were chasing young kids down into dirt
lots. They're that way, I said.
maybe automatic
writing is a way to find your friends, the one's you've
lost for whatever
reason, the what not. and finding them,
holding them,
fucking holding
them, tight and tight and tight still I could squeeze the
life essence out
of em. that is my dream. yes.
<<it is>> Diana,
Claudine, Sean...
where are you?
>
>
---------------just a thought-----------maya
Douglas <<on a thread of his own>>
PS: Maya, what were those <<bells>>
that you heard???
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:02:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: btw
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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dear friends, im'
reading "La leggenda di Duluoz" [THE LEGEND OF DULUOZ]
by Jack Keroauc,
edit by Ann Charters, JK works are a long bestseller here
in italy!--- yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:05:28 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: pier paolo pasolini.
In-Reply-To: <l03020901afdecd9a5505@[198.5.212.50]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Douglas wrote:
[s/thing snipped
for brevity]
>don't know
Ezra Pound at all
>"Salo"
by piero pasolini has my love
>a fetching
carrot, // Douglas
dear Douglas,
pier paolo has
his brother killed by
fascists during
the italian civil
war in 1945, this
was,
a thread in his
works (poetries&films),
his first film
"Accattone" was a milestone
'cuz introduce
the vernacular language &
actors street
urchin (neorealismo).
pier paolo
pasolini was killed in a cruel
way in 1975,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*
"E cosi' ce
ne andremo perdendo a una a una
Anche le parole
piu' care, ed arrivando
Fino a Dio con
carte bianche, ma forse
con visi piu'
sereni: mon lecteur, mon frere"
poetry by
venetian poet Giacomo Noventa
*
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:18:19 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
Comments: To:
MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
In-Reply-To: <3BA68810.@otc.usoc.cchub.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Wed, 2 Jul
1997, MATT HANNAN wrote:
>
<snips>
> How do we
know that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
> then if they
are who they say they are.
<snip>
dementia is right
the secret is
nobody is anything, the secret is that objectivity is never
there (except
maybe in ayn rand's mind) and gregory corso "you never step in
the same river
_once_."
or the voice
that's either in or out of james cole's mind:
"no way to
con_firm_ anything."
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:51:10 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
good one matt
<grins>
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
MATT HANNAN
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 5:30 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
<snips>
How do we know
that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
then if they are
who they say they are.
The whole list
may just be one big multiple personality illusion.
I cannot help but
think that there is something about this debate that
produces
dementia. It's a trip to the twilight
zone. Everytime it
surfaces the
strangest allegations start to be made.
graduate to being part of the evil Sampas
gang, with its tentacles
reaching from Lowell to Seattle. Funny, isn't it.
<end el snips>
Y'all have much more invested in this than
me, that's for sure. It
brings to mind some of the great events in
history:
"Mr. Reagan"
"Yes, Senator McCarthy"
"Are you a communist?"
or
"Why can't we all just get
along"
or, best put
Ginsberg (as Alvah Goldbook in DB) "I
know my redeemer liveth"
Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
(there, managed to work a Beat quote in
that covers two recent hot
topics on the list)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:16:20 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: suspicious tentacles
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Matt writ:
><< or, best put
>
> Ginsberg (as Alvah Goldbook in DB) "I
know my redeemer liveth"
> Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
> (there, managed to work a Beat quote in
that covers two recent hot
> topics on the list)
>>
Yes, but don't
ask me to be the straight man. Or the
thin man. He
cometh!
This list has a
good mix of creative, academic, and pure Beat.
IMHO, we
should try to
keep it like that. AND FEED OFF EACH
OTHER <ahem>.
Definitely
appreciated the tie-in there, Matt. Am
on my way to the
bookstore
tonite <<VOC, Port o' Kerouac,
??>>.
>
>> love and lilies,
>>
>> matt
Douglas <<tempting fate via backchannel, if
necessary>>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:14:08 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> James,
>
> My
unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
> just go for
it at this point? What do you want to
read?
>
> DC
I unofficially
checked out Cody today from the public library and will
probably at least
get one paragraph done before the afternoon siesta
takes control of
my being.
After the first
paragraph depends on whether i go to Denver tomorrow
which is up to
supernatural forces i'm not familiar with.
Certainly
will carry Cody
along -- just not much certainty how many pages will be
digested.
If i go the
Denver route i look forward to a return to a thread about
this Cody
character and visions and whatnot. If i
don't make the Denver
expedition i
imagine that i'll be participating in the thread by
afternoon
tomorrow at this time.
if another book
takes the lead -- please let me know so that i can stop
reading this one
and go on a hunting expedition for that one.
if i go
to Denver i hope
to increase my Beat library at used bookstores if they
exist.
shalom,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:42:04 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:14 PM
7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Diane Carter
wrote:
>>
>> James,
>>
>> My
unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
>> just go
for it at this point? What do you want
to read?
>>
>> DC
>
>I
unofficially checked out Cody today from the public library ...
What does
"unoficially checked out" mean?
Does this mean
you stole it?
If so, don't do
that. That messes things up for
everyone.
If you want to
steal this book steal it from a bookstore.
Or if you don't
want to buy it, officially check it out from the library.
If the above
doesn't mean you stole it then ignore this message.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:44:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 12:14 PM
7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Diane
Carter wrote:
> >>
> >>
James,
> >>
> >> My
unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
> >>
just go for it at this point? What do
you want to read?
> >>
> >> DC
> >
> >I
unofficially checked out Cody today from the public library ...
>
> What does
"unoficially checked out" mean?
>
> Does this
mean you stole it?
>
> If so, don't
do that. That messes things up for
everyone.
>
> If you want
to steal this book steal it from a bookstore.
>
> Or if you
don't want to buy it, officially check it out from the library.
>
> If the above
doesn't mean you stole it then ignore this message.
i did not
"liberate" Cody. the
unofficially was a connection to the
previous
post. i did check it out according to
normal library
procedures and
have my month of month and a half to treat it with my
loving care.
i've not
"liberated" books in a long time.
though it is something i
might have done
back in the crazier days of my FireWalk years.
back
then it was not a
wise idea to suggest i read something someday and
point to it in
your personal collection. but i'm reformed,
i'm
reformed, i'm
reformed!!!! patricia can attest to my
replacement of
burroughs'
retreat diaries in the box in her basement where it was
stored before i
read it.
hope all is well
in the land of the where-ever and when-ever y'all are
today. i'm about to lay down with ole Cody and get a
paragraph at least
in my brain
before drifting into siesta-ville.
thanks for the
sermon tim. us reformed
"liberators" can use a good
reminder now and
then.
take care all,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:41:30 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: freshman clearing house
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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<<Ok, one
thought and I'm oughta here>>
> Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
In
"Kerouac" <hm> trying to get the spelling right, I noticed that
the
only vowel
missing from his name is "I".
Kerouac is missing an eye.
missing his
i. I think I feel we have his i and it
should beat that
way. chi-i-kerouac
>lickity spat,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:04:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:44 PM 7/2/97
-0500, you wrote:
>Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> At 12:14
PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>Diane Carter wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
James,
>> >>
>> >>
My unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
>> >>
just go for it at this point? What do
you want to read?
>> >>
>> >>
DC
>> >
>> >I
unofficially checked out Cody today from the public library ...
>>
>> What
does "unoficially checked out" mean?
>>
>> Does
this mean you stole it?
>>
>> If so,
don't do that. That messes things up for
everyone.
>>
>> If you
want to steal this book steal it from a bookstore.
>>
>> Or if
you don't want to buy it, officially check it out from the library.
>>
>> If the
above doesn't mean you stole it then ignore this message.
>
>i did not
"liberate" Cody. the
unofficially was a connection to the
>previous
post. i did check it out according to
normal library
>procedures
and have my month of month and a half to treat it with my
>loving care.
>
>i've not
"liberated" books in a long time.
though it is something i
>might have
done back in the crazier days of my FireWalk years. back
>then it was
not a wise idea to suggest i read something someday and
>point to it
in your personal collection. but i'm
reformed, i'm
>reformed, i'm
reformed!!!! patricia can attest to my
replacement of
>burroughs'
retreat diaries in the box in her basement where it was
>stored before
i read it.
>
>hope all is
well in the land of the where-ever and when-ever y'all are
>today. i'm about to lay down with ole Cody and get a
paragraph at least
>in my brain
before drifting into siesta-ville.
>
>thanks for
the sermon tim. us reformed
"liberators" can use a good
>reminder now
and then.
I became so sick
of looking up articles on kerouac or the beats or related
topics in old
magazines in libraries, going to the stacks, finding the old
issue and opening
up the bound volume and finding out that the article had
been ropped out.
Also, the same
sort of thing with these books being stolen from libraries.
I didn't read the
other posts you referred to so I didn't know what
"unofficial"
meant.
I must admit In
my day I also stole books from stores.
And I never stole
any from a
library but sometimes I didn't turn them back in.
So for you
youngsters out there wonking is bad juju.
But today books are so
expensive. They are all now in the large paperback
format.
Find a good used
book store and haunt it.
>
>take care
all,
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:15:49 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: summer reading project
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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>After the
first paragraph depends on whether i go to Denver tomorrow
Madam Butterfly
is playing at the Central City Opera....you could
relive OTC (sure
they didn't see Madam...however)
if i go to Denver
i hope to increase my Beat library at used bookstores
if they exist.
Tattered Cover in Denver of course....or
The Beat Bookshop in Boulder
(everything from First/Second Edition Town
and City's to 99th run
Subterraneans. (and they have the coolest t-shirts....ooops,
2nd
coolest next to the BEAT-L shirt....)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:43:14 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Sherri, I'm not
sure I understand your question...it's the
internet...type
in underlocation http://www.optichat.com/
It should take
you there... (Are you behind a firewall or something?)
Barb
Sherri wrote:
>
> Barb, Thanks for the info. I'm on msn... what website do i need to go to
in
> the first
place? Ciao, Sherri
>
> ----------
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:57 AM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
>
>
Sherri...once you type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
> go into the
main menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
> them. Underneath will be a bar...click,hold,and
scroll to the room you
> want. click
on it, and you're there! See you!
>
> Sherri
wrote:
> >
> > cool
barb... how does one access Babblemania?
Sherri
> >
> >
----------
> >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> >
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> >
Subject: Chat Site
> >
> > Hi
there,
> > I spoke with the creator of Optichat,
and he said he'd be glad to
> > create
a room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> > Anyhow,
he maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
> >
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> > no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> > fairly
lucky in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> > particular
word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> > twisted
way, anyhow. The chat is fast there,
too...almost like irc.
> > The
other option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> > talk
privately)
> > Well, I'm just acting on a suggestion
I saw earlier...I think a good
> >
one. I'd like to see how you
think/react/chat in "real" time.
> > Dan
also said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> > (if
beta were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> > Maybe
those interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> > what
folks think.
> > The address is
http://www.optichat.com/
> >
> > I will
be in the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> > left
hand side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> > would
be 10 East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> > to do
your own math!). For now...lets meet in
Babblemania (seems sort
> > of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> > Thanks,
> > Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:04:12 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Douglas wrote:
> and is this
why Andre Breton says "beauty must be repulsive"?? To reach
>'all-beauty'
would one soon be repulsed by everything??
Andre Breton is a
man unto himself. I have never really completely dug
him (although his
Surrealist Manifesto is interesting - read abridged
version off
internet). His discipline and commitment can be seen as
having been
political = Communist, which may have interfered with art:
playing the role
of dictator to the Surrealist movement . . . so . . . I
am hesitant to fully
give value to "beauty must be repulsive" . . .
shouldn't it be:
'beauty is overwhelming' ?
> Still wish
you would explain that Yahweh/Moses ---> back/shoulders paradox.
'back/shoulders'
of God is a personification. We have gone through how
personification
of the celestial seems illusory = paradoxical, but then
again not really,
it is just an easier symbol-system to comprehend the
powers that be
through very human features - nothing wrong in that.
> and where to
go from there? back down the mountain??
we talk mountain
we look up-
the valley is deep
> please don't
let me ask about the "burning bush" in this context, please don't
let me ask, please... <<laughing>>
yeah . . . the
only thing i can say is that the Hebrew Scriptures are
wonderful for
fooling around poetically: biblical rhythm, themes,
characters . . .
I am trying to
read through it . . . presently on "Numbers"; Genesis &
Exodus were good;
Leviticus is mostly describing the intricacies of the
Law; Song of Songs
attributed to King Solomon is nice - it uses
"Beloved",
"Lover", & "Poet" speakers - i plan to fool around with
this
concept
("Beloved" are the people of Israel, "Lover" is God,
"Poet" is
author = myself)
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:16:40 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
In a message
dated 97-06-25 01:49:03 EDT, dkpenn@OEES.COM (Penn, Douglas, K)
writes:
<<
"How to best love a woman who lives 125 miles away?"
Please respond in a BEAT manner. cheers, Douglas
>>
I would say if you
want to have a long distance relationship, you should try
to stretch it out
for as long as you can.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:16:40 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Eastward Journey, part II
Well,
Still on the
road. Left LA, after not really doing much there at all other
then drive. Was
going to stop by the Viper Room in Beverly Hills, and ask
Johnny Depp if I
could borrow his $50,000 raincoat.
Drove to Las
Vegas on Wednesday, stayed at the Luxor Hotel, which is the
pyramid type
building. Ask for the package deal, and they give you a free
lunch buffet
voucher. But I will tell you this, the buffet on a scale 1 - 10
was about a 4.
Not very good. Normally would cost $5.99.
Walked and drove
around to many of the hotels/casinos. Won some money but
lost even more.
Gambling was only a few dollars here and there (ok, I ended
up losing $37
which I am not too happy about). I can't say that I was feeling
very lucky but I
thought I would do better.
Vegas is now half
kids, half glitz, and half plaid shorts. I think the
building architecture
and neon lights make up for it though.
Got off on a late
start the next day and stopped off at the Hoover Dam. I was
glad, I thought
it was named for Edgar Hoover, Under Cover man in women's
undercovers. But
it is named for President Herbert Hoover. That was a lot of
cement poured
into that valley.
Don't know how
far I was suppose to get that day, but I found myself in
Laughlin at 8 pm,
and saw the sign that said rooms $17, so I had to stay. It
is located right
on the Colorado River, border of Arizona.
Next day went to
Oatman Arizona (24 miles or so from Bullhead City). This was
my first jouney
on to the mother road, Route 66. On the outskirts of town,
the tumbleweed
bushes are decorated with x-mas stuff (tinsel and bulbs and
other x-mas
stuff). Oatman was a thriving mining
community of 10,000 people
at one point,
then a ghost town of 50 people, and now a tourist town of a few
100. And some
wild burros that roam the street (I would say streets, but
there is only one
street-- old Route 66). From there it was a twisty road to
Route 40. I don't
think that even Neal could have cruised these roads at
faster then 30
miles an hour. From there drove non-stop
to Amarillo (yellow
in spanish), it
was some 900 + miles.
About 63 miles from
a town called Tumucari (was that in Texas or New Mexico,
who the hell
knows) a giant something smashes into my windshield. It was the
biggest bug I
have ever hit. Left a patch of goo and blob 4 inches by 5
inches.
Saw of course
Caddillac Ranch, which is on the west side of Amarillo. It is
10 caddillacs
buried next to what was Route 66, now Route 40, pointing west.
If you are
traveling west, it will be on your left side (I think mile marker
86).
Also hiked in
Palo Duro Canyon, which they say is the 2nd largest canyon in
the US. It is
pretty wild because you can drive down to the bottom of the
canyon. It is
about 24 miles outside of Amarillo.
Right now, living
it up in a Motel 6.
Tom Bodell and I
say, enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:52:31 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Reply to message
from lisar@NET-LINK.NET of Tue, 01 Jul
>
>And
considering that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list here
>personally,
met them, had coffee with them nor shared in their lives, which
>includes you
sherri, maybe you do not exist either.
>
According to
Roland Barthes, none of us exist, since in order to truly
interpret
literature the author must be "dead", and so as each of us reads
the others'
messages the original author no longer exists; he/she/it must
give way--the
reader has taken over. The only good I
ever found in that
essay was that
BArthes didn't exist, either, then.
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:18:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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7bit
JN wrote:
<<shouldn't
it be: 'beauty is overwhelming' ?>>
but then the
object of beauty wouldn't be "attractive" (as opposed to
repulsive).
Have been
thinking about this a bit, since its inception here on the
list. Are all women beautiful? This question has dogged me for years.
<<I need
more training, methodological and *physical*, ug!>> Thinking
of the
virgin/whore paradigm. Mary who birthed
him, while the other
brings him water
and bathes him.
Look forward to
hearing more about Jan Kerouac.
<<perhaps
this should all be backchannel??>>
Have always been
searching for beauty. The perfect
woman. the perfect
mate. even seriously considered men for a
while. An impossible task.
how fleeting, my
past pursuits. how eyes deceive us. Have been talking
backchannel about
art, process and results with a fellow beetle.
How
when the process
is all through, all one really has is results :: when
beauty has been
completed, one is left with a substance.
a solid
ground. hopefully
a common ground. Who knows? <<still searching>>
yes, *I know*,
perfection can not be achieved.............
<<
>we talk
mountain
> we look up-
> the valley
is deep
>>
If you have the
opportunity, listen to the Butthole Surfer's latest
musical hit,
"pepper." I only know bits of
the lyrics: [[ ~~~ some
have died in hot
pursuit, sifting thru my ashes, coming down the
mountain ~~~~
images I've seen, some can hit you through your eyes,
others in
between. ]] All atop a snake coiling
backbeat, a guitar
melodic in its
abstractions, high above the words. and
the video is
great!! <<On my way to lunch, this song seemed
very appropo.>>
>
><<yeah
. . . the only thing i can say is that the Hebrew Scriptures are
>wonderful for
fooling around poetically: biblical rhythm, themes,
characters . .
.>>
my grandfather
worked in a garage his whole life.
learned to play piano
late in
life. took walks after dinner. watched johnny carson, benny
hill. Then sat down in his favorite chair and read
the bible. finally,
he went to
sleep <<prostate
cancer>>. Don't know what part he
got up
to, but I imagine
him there reading. In my dreams he talks
to me, and
all he usually
says is "Douglas." <<I'm
waiting...>>
>gotta keep
reading. Let me know how it ends,
Yes? Cheers.
> JN
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:24:39 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> JN wrote:
>
>
<<shouldn't it be: 'beauty is overwhelming' ?>>
>
> but then the
object of beauty wouldn't be "attractive" (as opposed to
> repulsive).
>
> Have been
thinking about this a bit, since its inception here on the
> list. Are all women beautiful? This question has dogged me for years.
> <<I
need more training, methodological and *physical*, ug!>> Thinking
> of the
virgin/whore paradigm. Mary who birthed
him, while the other
> brings him
water and bathes him.
>
> Look forward
to hearing more about Jan Kerouac.
>
>
<<perhaps this should all be backchannel??>>
>
> Have always
been searching for beauty. The perfect
woman. the perfect
> mate. even seriously considered men for a
while. An impossible task.
> how
fleeting, my past pursuits. how eyes
deceive us. Have been talking
> backchannel
about art, process and results with a fellow beetle. How
> when the
process is all through, all one really has is results :: when
> beauty has
been completed, one is left with a substance.
a solid
> ground.
hopefully a common ground. Who
knows? <<still searching>>
>
> yes, *I
know*, perfection can not be achieved.............
>
> <<
> >we talk
mountain
> > we look up-
> > the
valley is deep
> >>
>
> If you have
the opportunity, listen to the Butthole Surfer's latest
> musical hit,
"pepper." I only know bits of
the lyrics: [[ ~~~ some
> have died in
hot pursuit, sifting thru my ashes, coming down the
> mountain
~~~~ images I've seen, some can hit you through your eyes,
> others in
between. ]] All atop a snake coiling
backbeat, a guitar
> melodic in
its abstractions, high above the words.
and the video is
> great!! <<On my way to lunch, this song seemed
very appropo.>>
> >
>
><<yeah . . . the only thing i can say is that the Hebrew Scriptures
are
>
>wonderful for fooling around poetically: biblical rhythm, themes,
> characters .
. .>>
>
> my
grandfather worked in a garage his whole life.
learned to play piano
> late in
life. took walks after dinner. watched johnny carson, benny
> hill. Then sat down in his favorite chair and read
the bible. finally,
> he went to
sleep <<prostate
cancer>>. Don't know what part he
got up
> to, but I
imagine him there reading. In my dreams
he talks to me, and
> all he
usually says is "Douglas."
<<I'm waiting...>>
>
> >gotta
keep reading. Let me know how it ends,
Yes? Cheers.
>
> > JN
the teenagers are
run out of BabbleMania if anyone interested in
chatting about
this junk
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:52:24 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
David.... the
place is relatively new...and isn't used that much. I
thought we could
fill a vacuum! (which nature, of course, abhors) It
would be an easy
site to occupy, esp. if Dan sets up a Beat chat room.
I'm glad you
stopped by...
barb
will be on
tonight
RACE --- wrote:
>
> Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> >
> >
Sherri...once you type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
> > go into
the main menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
> >
them. Underneath will be a
bar...click,hold,and scroll to the room you
> > want.
click on it, and you're there! See you!
> >
> > Sherri
wrote:
> > >
> > >
cool barb... how does one access Babblemania?
Sherri
> > >
> > >
----------
> > >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> > >
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> > >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > >
Subject: Chat Site
> > >
> > > Hi
there,
> >
> I spoke with the creator of
Optichat, and he said he'd be glad to
> > >
create a room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> > >
Anyhow, he maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
> > >
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> > > no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> > >
fairly lucky in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> > >
particular word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> > >
twisted way, anyhow. The chat is fast
there, too...almost like irc.
> > >
The other option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> > >
talk privately)
> >
> Well, I'm just acting on a
suggestion I saw earlier...I think a
good
> > >
one. I'd like to see how you
think/react/chat in "real" time.
> > >
Dan also said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> > >
(if beta were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> > >
Maybe those interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> > >
what folks think.
> >
> The address is http://www.optichat.com/
> > >
> > > I
will be in the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> > >
left hand side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> > >
would be 10 East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> > > to
do your own math!). For now...lets meet
in Babblemania (seems sort
> > > of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> > >
Thanks,
> > >
Barb
>
> i went over
to see what it was like at 4:00 central time.
certainly a
> lot of
teenagers to run off.
>
> teenagers
that type slower than my Dead Grandmother i might add :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
>
> p.s. i might
be free at 9 to jump in the room I think i know how to get
> to
Babblemania now. thanks and all that.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:42:43 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: BOMB by Gregory Corso (was re:gregory
corso?)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
BOMB by Gregory Corso
Budger of history Brake of time
You Bomb
Toy of universe Grandest of all snatched-sky I cannot hate you
Do I hate the mischievous thunderlbolt the jawbone of an ass
The bumpy club of On Million B.C. the mace
the flail the axe
Catapulte Da Vinci tomahawke Cochise flintlock Kidd dagger Rathbone
Ah and the sad desperate gun of Verlaine Pushkin
Dillinger Bogart
And hath not St. Michael a burning sword St. George a lance David a sling
Bomb
you are as cruel as man makes you
and you're no crueller than cancer
All man hates you the'd rather die by car-crash lightining
drowing
Falling off a roof electric-chair heart-attack
old age old age O Bomb
They'd rather die by anything but
you Death's finger is free-lance
Not up to man wheter you boom or not Death has long since distribuited its
categorical blue I sing thee Bomb Death's extravagance Death's jubilee
Gem of Death's supremest blue The flyer will crash his death will differ
with the climber who'll fall To die by cobra is not to die by bad pork
Some die by swamp
some by sea and some by the bushy-haired man in the night
O there are deaths like witches of Arc Scary deaths like Boris Karloff
No-feeling deaths like birth-death sadless deaths like old pain Bowery
Abandoned deaths like Capital Punishment stately deaths like
senators
And unthinkable deaths like Harpo Marx girls on
vogue covers my own
I do not know just how orrible
Bombdeath is I can only image
Yet no other death I know has so
laughable a preview I scope
a city
New York City streaming starkeyed
subway shelter
Scores and scores A fumble of humanity High beels bend
Hats whelming away Youth forgetting their combs
Ladies not knowing what to do with
their shopping bags
Unperturbed gum machines Yet dangerous 3rd rail
Ritz Brothers from the Bronx caught in the A train
The smiling Schenley poster
will always smile
Implish Death Satyr Bomb
Bombdeath
Turtles
exploding over Istambul
The jaguar's
flying foot
soon to sink in
arctic snow
Penguins plunged against the
Sphinx
The top of the Empire
State Bulding
arrowed in a broccoli
field in Sicily
Eiffel shaped like C in
Magnolia Gardens
St. Sophia peeling over Sudan
O athletic Death Sportive Bomb
The temple of
ancient times
their grand
ruine ceased
Electrons Protons
Neutrons
gathering
Hesperean hair
walking the dolorous
golf of Arcady
joing marble
helmsmen
entering the final
amphitheatre
with a hymnody feeling of
all Troys
heralding cypressean
torches
racing plumes and
banners
and yet knowing Homer with a
step of grace
Lo the visiting team of
Present
the home team
of Past
Lyre and tuba together
joined
Hark the hotdog soda
olive grape
gala galaxy robed and uniformed
commissary O the happy stands
Ethereal root and
cheer and boo
The billioned all-time
attendance
The Zeusian
pandemonium
Hermes racing Owens
the Spitball of
Buddha
Christ
striking out
Luther stealing
third
Planetarium Death Hosannah Bomb
Gush the final rose O Spring Bomb
Come with thy gown of
dynamite green
unmenance Nature's
inviolate eye
Before you the
wimpled Past
behind you the hallooing Future O
Bomb
Bound in the grassy
clarion air
like the fox of the
tally-ho
thy field the universe thy
hedge the geo
Leap Bomb bound Bomb
frolic zig and zag
The stars a swarm of bees in
the binging bag
Stick angels on your
jubilee feet
wheels of rainlight on your
bunky seat
You are due and behold you
are due
and the heavens are with you
hosannah incalescent
glorious liaision
BOMB O avoc antiphony molten
cleft BOOM
Bomb mark infinity a
sudden furnace
spread thy multidinous
encompassed Sweep
set forth awful
agenda
Carrion stars charnel planets carcass elements
Corpse the universe tee-hee
finger-in-the mounth hop
over its long long dead
Nor
From thy nimbled matted
spastic eye
exhsaust delegues of
celestial ghouls
From thy appellational
womb
spew birth-gusts of great
worms
Rip open your belly
Bomb
from your belly outflock vulturic salutations
Battle forth your spangled hyena
finger stumps
along the brick of
Paradis
O Bomb O final Pied Paradise
both sun and firefly behind your shock
waltz
God abandoned mock-nude
beneath His thin false-talc'd
apocalypse
He cannot hear thy
flute's
happy-the-day profanation
He is spilled deaf into the
Silencer's warty ear
His Kingdom an eternity of
crude wax
Clogged clarions
untrumpet Him
Selead angels unsing
Him
A thunderless God A dead God
O Bomb thy BOOM His tomb
That i lean forward on a desk
of science
an astrologer dabbling in dragon
prose
half-smart about wars bombs
especially bombs
That I am unable to hate what is
necessary to love
That i can't exist in a world
that consents
a child in a park a man dying in an electric-chair
That I am able to laugh at
all things
all that I know and do not know thus to conceal my pain
That I say I am a poet and
therefore love all man
and my unwords no less an
acquaintanceship
That I am
manifold
a man pursuing the big lies
of gold
or a poet roaming in
bright ashes
or that which I image
myself to be
a shark-toothed sleep a man-eater od dreams
I need not then be all-smart
about bombs
Happily do for it I felt bombs were caterpillars
I'd doubt not they'd
become butterflies
There is a hell
for bombs
They're there I see them there
They sit in bits and
sing songs
mostly German
songs
and two very long American
songs
and they wish there were
more songs
especcialy Russian and Chinese
songs
and some more very long
American songs
Poor little Bomb
that'll never be
an Eskimo song I love thee
I want to put a
lollipop
in thy furcal
mouth
A wig of Goldilocks on thy
baldy bean
and have you skip with me
Hansel and Gretel
along the Hollywoodian
screen
O Bomb in which all lovely
things
moral or phisical anxiously
partecipate
O fairlyflake plucked
from the
grandest universe
tree
O piece of heaven which
gives
both mountain and anthill
a sun
I am standing before your
fantastic lily door
I bring you Midgardian
roses Arcadian musk
Reputed cosmetics from the
girls of heaven
Welcome me fear not thy opened door
nor thy cold ghost's grey
memory
nor the pimps of indefinite
weather
their cruel terrestrial
thaw
Oppenheimer is
seated
in the dark pocket
of Light
Fermi is dry in Death's
Mozambique
Einstein his
mythmouth
a barnacled wreath on the
moon-squid's head
Let me in
Bomb rise from thet pregnant-rat
corner
nor fear the raised-broom nations
of the world
O Bomb I love
you
I want to kiss your clanck eat your boom
You are a pean an acme of scream
a lyric hat of Mister
Thunder
O resound thy tanky
knees
BOOM BOOM
BOOM BOOM BOOM
BOOM ye skies and BOOM
ye suns
BOOM BOOM ye moons
ye clouds ye rains
go BANG ye lakes ye oceans BING
Barracuda BOOM and
coguar BOOM
Ubangi BANG orangoutang
BIG BANG BONG BOOM bee bear baboon
ye BANG ye BONG ye
BING
the tail the
fin the wing
Yes Yes
into our midst a bomb will fall
Flowers will leap in joy their
roots aching
Pinkbombs will blossom Elkbombs will perk their ears
Ah many a bomb that day will awe the
bird a gentle look
Yet not anough to say a bomb will fall
or even contend celestial fire
goes out
Know that the earth will madonna
the Bomb
that in the hearts of men to come more
bombs will be born
magisterial bombs wrapped in
ermine all beatiful
and they'll sit plunk on
earth's grumpy empires
fierce with moustaches
of gold
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
>Return-Path:
<owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:33:36 -0500
>Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>Subject: gregory corso?
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Ksenija,
>The Corso
line you were asking about is from line 15 of Corso's
>poem "Bomb";
in English it reads," To die by cobra is not to die
>by bad
pork." "Bomb" was originally published as a broadside, and
>later was
collected in _The Happy Birthday of Death_ as a foldout
>in that
volume, surely one of the few books of poetry ever published
>with a
centerfold.
>Cordially,
>Mike Skau
>7/1/97
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:18:44 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: BOMB by Gregory Corso (was re:gregory
corso?)
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970702234243.006a3f24@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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one of my
favorites by corso.
isn't that the
poem he recites in fried shoes, or cookies or something at
naropa?
btw
hi rinaldo.
mc
think i'll spend
some time with elegaic feelings tonite
mc
btw
how the hell are
ya, R?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:29:38 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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David writ:
>
><<the
teenagers are run out of BabbleMania if anyone interested in
chatting about
this junk>>
Douglas, pulling
a quote from Joyce's Ulysses (p25), declines:
---How, sir? Comyn asked.
A bridge is across a river.
For Haines's chapbook. No-one here to hear. Tonight deftly amid wild
drink and talk,
to pierce the polished mail of his mind.
What then? A
jester at the
court of his master, indulged and disesteemed, winning a
clement master's
praise. Why had they chosen all that
part? Not wholly
for the smooth
caress. For them too history was a tale
like any other
too often heard,
their land a pawnshop.
Had Pyrrhus not fallen by a beldam's
hand in Argos or Julius Caesar not
been knifed to
death? They are not to be thought
away. Time has
branded them and
fettered they are logded in the room of
the infinite
possibilities they have ousted. But can those have been possible
seeing that they
never were? Or was that only possible
which came to
pass? Weave, weaver of the wind.
---Tell us a story, sir.
>
=-=-=-=-=-
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
<<sorry for
the indulgence>> Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:27:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Chat Site and Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> Sherri, I'm
not sure I understand your question...it's the
>
internet...type in underlocation http://www.optichat.com/
> It should
take you there... (Are you behind a firewall or something?)
> Barb
>
> Sherri
wrote:
> >
> >
Barb, Thanks for the info. I'm on msn... what website do i need to go to
in
> > the
first place? Ciao, Sherri
> >
> >
----------
> >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> >
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:57 AM
> >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> >
Subject: Re: Chat Site
> >
> >
Sherri...once you type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
> > go into
the main menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
> >
them. Underneath will be a
bar...click,hold,and scroll to the room you
> > want.
click on it, and you're there! See you!
> >
> > Sherri
wrote:
> > >
> > >
cool barb... how does one access Babblemania?
Sherri
> > >
> > >
----------
> > >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> > >
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> > >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > >
Subject: Chat Site
> > >
> > > Hi
there,
> >
> I spoke with the creator of
Optichat, and he said he'd be glad to
> > >
create a room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> > >
Anyhow, he maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
> > >
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> > > no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> > >
fairly lucky in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> > >
particular word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> > >
twisted way, anyhow. The chat is fast
there, too...almost like irc.
> > >
The other option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> > >
talk privately)
> >
> Well, I'm just acting on a
suggestion I saw earlier...I think a
good
> > >
one. I'd like to see how you
think/react/chat in "real" time.
> > >
Dan also said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> > >
(if beta were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> > >
Maybe those interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> > >
what folks think.
> >
> The address is
http://www.optichat.com/
> > >
> > > I
will be in the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> > >
left hand side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> > >
would be 10 East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> > > to
do your own math!). For now...lets meet
in Babblemania (seems sort
> > > of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> > >
Thanks,
> > >
Barb
well i chatted a bit
-- it is OK. my fingerspeed helps me in
the sport
although my
ignorance of the technology is a weakness.
i recommend it
to folks. if several Beat-L'ers join it can easily
overwhelm the
conversation to
whatever subject we agree upon. of
course, agreement on
a subject will
probably be about as easy as agreement on a summer
reading project
:)
read the first
paragraph of Cody. it was
olfactory. a sense i have
little of. but i kinda got the gist of it.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:48:25 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> David writ:
> >
>
><<the teenagers are run out of BabbleMania if anyone interested in
> chatting
about this junk>>
>
> Douglas,
pulling a quote from Joyce's Ulysses (p25), declines:
>
> ---How, sir? Comyn asked.
A bridge is across a river unless it is
across a train-track or a highway or a road.
> For Haines's chapbook. No-one here to hear. Tonight deftly amid wild
> drink and
talk, to pierce the polished mail of his mind -- he laughs to
himself at the notion that anyone would find
his mind polished. He explores
the mail metaphor through his various synapses
for three hours and falls asleep
in a snowstorm that the mental pony express
could not deliver through. What
then?
The black nothingness of sleep follows.
A
> jester at
the court of his master, indulged and disesteemed, winning a
> clement
master's praise. The jester picks up an
electric guitar at Newport
and is thrown out of the court for not being
folky. The jester smiles and
flies far ahead of the crowd to a watchtower
where he and Isaiah scope the
scene of the centuries. Why had they chosen all that part? Isaiah questions
whether it was much of a choice. The other parts weren't worth crap anyway.
Not wholly
> for the
smooth caress. The Jester laughs and
imagines a rough caress or two
as well.
For them too history was a tale like any other
> too often
heard, their land a pawnshop. And the
trinkets of yesteryear were
sold by a blind man with a silver tooth who
never lost a bit to shoplifters and
wasn't a bad pickpocket either.
> Had Pyrrhus not fallen by a beldam's
hand in Argos or Julius Caesar
not
> been knifed
to death? Had they not, had they not,
they would have died
nonetheless.
They are not to be thought away.
Time has
> branded them
and fettered they are logded in the room
of the infinite
>
possibilities they have ousted. But a wormhole has taken them into the hive
of a flat earth society gathering north of
Parker Arizona near the Colorado
River with a bridge over it like many bridges
are. But can those have been
possible seeing that they never were? Or was that only possible which came to
pass?
Passing through the illusions of time and space over the river and
through the woods we gather on the bridge and
wonder whether we should perform
a collective Jump. Weave, weaver of the wind.
> ---Tell us a story, sir.
> >
> =-=-=-=-=-
>
> >>
david rhaesa
> >>
salina, Kansas
>
>
<<sorry for the indulgence>> Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:12:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
David writ:
<<
>> ---How, sir? Comyn asked.
A bridge is across a river unless it is
> across a
train-track or a highway or a road.
>>
Yes, I hear them
now. short like stacks of smoke. a sound of always
moving. Are you there still, David? David?
shoe, chew, chew, chew
<I know I
can> Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:45:29 EDT
Reply-To: Marcus Williamson
<71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marcus Williamson
<71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Kenneth Patchen tribute
A tribute to the life
and work of poet and artist Kenneth Patchen (1911-1972) is
being held at the
Naropa Institute, Boulder, Colorado, July 9 - July 12 1997.
For further
information please see :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Patchen/
Thanks &
regards
Marcus Williamson
London, UK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:01:06 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
i dreamt last night of an animal, furry
with sharp teeth like a bat but
not a bat, more
like a rabbit. someone was holding it
down and another
person, perhaps a
biology graduate student, was prying its mouth open with
his or her index
fingers, causing the animal to grin grotesquely and i looked
at the teeth oh
my god those teeth what teeth and then it was all black and i
woke up. No, i know, the animal was a monkey. A baby monkey i think a
baboon or a
marmoset. Something with a long
snout. Sharp teeth. bloody
gums.
this is the dream
i dreamed last night. been thinking
about it all day, it
haunts me. Not a nightmare really, cause i didn't wake
up shit-scared, but
it haunts me
somehow.
Do you know the
feeling?
---maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:04:59 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Diane M. Homza
wrote:
>
> According to
Roland Barthes, none of us exist, since in order to truly
> interpret
literature the author must be "dead", and so as each of us
> reads
> the others'
messages the original author no longer exists; he/she/it
>must
> give
way--the reader has taken over. The only
good I ever found in
>that
> essay was
that BArthes didn't exist, either, then.
>
> Diane.
>
Sort of parallels
the idea that the reader "finishes" the work, a concept
played out by
Joyce and probably even Kerouac as he approached the idea
of taking words
further.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:24:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: happy poem about adolescence
i remember when
we used to laugh
on the bench in
the Garden
the whole thing
sunny and buzzing.
Disgusting.
I remember crying
as i watched your fingerprints darken on my bruising arm.
The purple handprint developing like a
polaroid through my blurred sight.
Your hand's yellowing shadow stayed gripping
my arm for a week. Your
fingers, your
hand!
I want to ask you
now, what did it for you?
Was it that night
in the cemetery watching tombstones float by?
Was it your
bitch-for-a-mother? Your dad's coke problem?
Was it that
nightmarish prom-night I dragged you to?
I mean, what
crossed the line for you?
(Was it really
worth it to you, you prick?)
'Cause you made a
big black spot
on this the only life
i've got.
(The way I can't
stop thinking about you, one might think i didn't hate you.)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:34:08 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kenneth Patchen tribute
Comments: To:
">"@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
A Patchen tribute
is a wonderful idea. I don't know why
I'm suprised
that Naropa is
the one to think of this.
J Stauffer
Marcus Williamson
wrote:
>
> A tribute to
the life and work of poet and artist Kenneth Patchen (1911-1972)
is
> being held
at the Naropa Institute, Boulder, Colorado, July 9 - July 12 1997.
> For further
information please see :
>
>
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Patchen/
>
> Thanks &
regards
> Marcus
Williamson
> London, UK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:38:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
Comments: To:
Becca91894@aol.com
In a message dated
97-07-02 23:16:46 EDT, you write:
<<
hey there--
i'm new to the list and most of the time i
don't know what'd going on. i
read the posts
about automatic writing or "spontaneous prose", but i'm not
familiar with
these terms. i'm intrigued--maybe you
could take some time to
explain the
concept to me?
with advanced appreciation,
becca
>>
automatic writing
is a term invented by the surrealists in the 1910's-20's or
thereabouts. The surrealists were Andre Breton, Max Ernst,
Bunuel, Dali,
etc, mostly living in Paris. Andre Breton is the one who actually invented
the term, i
think. He wrote the Surrealist
Manifesto.
It means just
writing whatever comes into your head.
Channelling the
unconscious
thoughts. the surrealists were very
interested in the
unconscious and
in dreams. (they were fascinated by Freud for example) So in
automatic writing
you don't edit yourself. Just
write. Doesn't have to make
"sense"
to others. It's "automatic"
because you don't think about it, just
do it. (perhaps
Nike's P.R. managers were into Breton?)
I think the beats
were heavily influenced by the surrealists. In fact their
whole generation
was. While i'm making generalizations, i
might as well say
that the whole
20th century is colored by the surrealists, as far as art is
concerned.
Does that answer
you questions at all?
-------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:53:08 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
In-Reply-To:
<970702233634_303434403@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 8:38 PM -0700
7/2/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> automatic
writing is a term invented by the surrealists in the 1910's-20's or
>
thereabouts. The surrealists were Andre
Breton, Max Ernst, Bunuel, Dali,
> etc, mostly living in Paris. Andre Breton is the one who actually invented
> the term, i
think. He wrote the Surrealist
Manifesto.
Don't forget Yves
Tanguey, Lee Miller, Max Ernst, and Man Ray, to name a
few. Personally, I like the "dadaists"
who preceeded them. The
Surrealists, in
general, played a lot of games. One game
involved three or
four people and a
folded sheet of paper. One person would
start with the
head, the next
the body, the legs, feet, etc. But
nobody knew what the
others had
done. Amazing results.
and along the
lines of writing, they would all take turns at a typewriter.
one would start
the story, one would play middle, and perhaps another the
end. just write and write and write. a happy form of accidents, I suppose.
> I think the
beats were heavily influenced by the surrealists. In fact their
> whole
generation was. While i'm making
generalizations, i might as well say
> that the
whole 20th century is colored by the surrealists, as far as art is
> concerned.
I'd be curious to
tie this in with what Diane was saying about Kerouac and
the idea of
"taking words farther." I know
David Bowie and Brian Eno used
a custom deck of
cards to make a lot of their decisions [be contrary, be
harmonious,
etc]. Did the beats, in general, play
games during the process
of putting words
to paper? Again, I'm new to their
literature and don't
know these
things.
>
> Does that
answer you questions at all?
>
-------------maya
raises more. good.
cheers, Douglas <<i.e., the
impact of war upon
literature,
art>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:53:52 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: what's going on?
hey there--
i'm pretty new to
the list, so i think i probably don't have any right to
criticize, but
i'm doing it anyways. my fervent wish is
that everyone takes
this in the best
possible way. now that i've built it up
into something
huge, here's my
question: i've been getting a lot of
duplicate mail. i love
the list, and
duplicate mail wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact
that so much mail
comes from this list without duplications, and i'm missing
other
emails. is anyone else having this
problem? or is there just
something wrong
with my mail?
that's all there
is to the criticism. it wasn't so bad,
now was it?
let me close by
reiterating my fondness for the list-- i think it's great,
i'm learning a
lot and am getting so much out of the conversations, even
though i'm not
actively participating. eventually i
will, when i get over
being shy.
thanks for the
list and thanks in advance to anyone who decides to address
this matter for
me.
in friendship,
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:51:13 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: visions of cody (JK reading televised in
los angels october 1959)
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"Vision of
Cody" for jack kerouac was his preferred book
'cuz he wasnt'
able to publish it,---Rinaldo.
*
Rarely, rarely
comest
[thou Spirit of
Delight"
---shelley
*
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:52:51 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ) & .
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>From
FireWalk Thru Madness, copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
<|snip|>
David,
are you
copirated?
---
yrs
Rinaldo * a
beetle bottled *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:16:49 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re: freshman clearing house
Comments: To:
"Penn; Douglas; K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>In
"Kerouac" <hm> trying to get the spelling right, I noticed that
the
>only vowel
missing from his name is "I".
Kerouac is missing an eye.
>missing his
i. I think I feel we have his i and it
should beat that
>way. chi-i-kerouac
I not I
no I
If you have his original face (from before
he was born, of course)
please return it to the library.
I think JK was being facetious when he
said "praised be man"...I
really do.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:21:56 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
becca,
I've had that
trouble on occasion myself, I believe it has to do with how the
server's
functioning. Not much anyone cna do
abouot that unfortunately.
Welcome, I;m
rather new here and just to, hopefully, allay you shyness,
everyone has made
me feel very comfortable to be here, even though I jumped
right in and have
had opinions differing from some folks.
So dive in, the
waters fine.
<smiles>
Paix,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 1:53 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: what's going on?
hey there--
i'm pretty new to
the list, so i think i probably don't have any right to
criticize, but
i'm doing it anyways. my fervent wish is
that everyone takes
this in the best
possible way. now that i've built it up
into something
huge, here's my
question: i've been getting a lot of
duplicate mail. i love
the list, and
duplicate mail wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact
that so much mail
comes from this list without duplications, and i'm missing
other
emails. is anyone else having this
problem? or is there just
something wrong
with my mail?
that's all there
is to the criticism. it wasn't so bad,
now was it?
let me close by
reiterating my fondness for the list-- i think it's great,
i'm learning a
lot and am getting so much out of the conversations, even
though i'm not
actively participating. eventually i
will, when i get over
being shy.
thanks for the
list and thanks in advance to anyone who decides to address
this matter for
me.
in friendship,
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:39:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: bad
dream
lies and
betrayals
Last night i
dreamt she was lying on top of me, kissing me.
I was suffocating, trying to get up but she
was heavy.
I hate you,
Keenan.
There, I've said
it.
If only i had
seen your true nature before.
You wear a mask
of tranquility
but you have
vampiric tendencies
and a suspect
device.
Instead of a
heart.
You don't see us
You don't see us
You don't see us
We strike in the
dark.
In the dark well
of my room, she knows i'm vulnerable,
and she pins me
down.
In an inch of
dirty water, my face pressed to the cold stone ground,
I drown, still
kicking.
We are prisoners
of our own thoughts,
We are prisoners
of our selves.
--maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:44:39 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
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FIRST_Rebecca
LAST_ Last wrote:
>
> here's my
question: i've been getting a lot of
duplicate mail. i love
> the list,
and duplicate mail wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for
>the fact
> that so much
mail comes from this list without duplications, and i'm
>missing
> other
emails. is anyone else having this
problem? or is there just
> something
wrong with my mail?
> that's all
there is to the criticism. it wasn't so
bad, now was it?
> let me close
by reiterating my fondness for the list-- i think it's
>great,
> i'm learning
a lot and am getting so much out of the conversations,
>even
> though i'm
not actively participating. eventually i
will, when i get
>over
> being shy.
> thanks for
the list and thanks in advance to anyone who decides to
>address
> this matter
for me.
>
> in
friendship,
>
> becca
The problem you
are speaking of, duplicate posts, exists because of the
change in the way
the listserve operates. Unless you
re-direct your post
to Beat-l, it
will automatically go to the person who sent the post you
are responding
to. To avoid that, many people use the
Re:all option on
their software,
which means a copy goes to the beat-l and another copy to
the individual
person whose ideas you responded to.
When you read your
mail, just delete
one of the posts. People who respond by
erasing the
individual's name
and inserting Beat-l are the ones from which you only
receive one list-directed
post. I doubt that you are missing any
mail,
but sometimes
someone responds on the list to something that got by
private e-mail,
and thus you have never seen the quote they are
addressing. Sorry this got so long. Hope you understand.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:46:28 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: automatic writing
Comments: To:
runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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runner711 spaketh:
>Did the
beats, in general, play games during the process of putting words
>to
paper? Again, I'm new to their
literature and don't know these
>things.
Is this what you mean?
Our laird and processor, William S.
Burroughs, invented (co-invented?)
the process of cut-ups. Basically taking text and cutting it into
strips and sliding the strips of paper up
and down, sliding text from
line to line (hence reading between the
lines?, I've always wondered,
and is this where the term cut-up (as in
clown) comes from?) to find
the "true meaning". It's a terrible amount of fun, especially
using
things like the Bible, Koran, and Hardy
Boys/Nancy Drew mysteries
combined (I discovered that the Hardy Boys
wore cute outfits and
danced all night with their father!).
This is my freshman account of cut-ups,
I'm sure others on the list
can give much depth to my 6th grade
education account. Correct me if
I'm wrong but isn't Naked Lunch the first
cut-up novel?
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:10:04 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Nice to meet you, becca
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Good Morning
becca,
Another day
starting on the right post. Nice to meet you. Glad you are
planning to move
into our neighborhood.
Joining us for
Visions of Cody for starters?
You Remind me to say thank you again to Bill
Gargan. He started this
baby. Healthy and
growing.
By the way Bill,
what is its birthday?
Lucky for me no
twins here. First time I hear about doubles. Hmmm,
wonder what's
going on with your software. Doubling this list can eat up
your mail box
fast. Hope you solve the problem quickly.
leon
.-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:15:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. @
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Kerouac
Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2 is in its final editing stage for its
Summer issue. It
can be purchased by sending $2.95 to:
The Kerouac
Quarterly
34 North Rd. #7
Chelmsford, MA.
01824
Issue #1 is still
available from Water Row Books.
Issue #2 will
have a different format than the first and thus, less costs!
More pages!
Thanks! Paul of
TKQ
P.S. We need your
submissions for the next issue which will center around
the release of
Some of the Dharma on September 5th. Any essays on Kerouac
and Buddhism
would be a plus! Thanks again. . .
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:15:27 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: be at #2 haiku
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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blurred flies
in his eyes
poor man
incognito like a
multimillionaire
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:28:32 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Rexroth
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Content-Type:
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"Thou Shalt Not Kill" by Kenneth
Rexroth
You,
The hyena with
polished face and bow tie,
In the office of
a billion dollar
Corporation
devoted to service;
The vulture
dripping with carrion,
Carefully and
carelessly robed in imported tweeds,
Lecturing on the
Age of Abundance;
The jackal in the
double-breasted gabardine,
Barking by remote
control,
In the United Nations...
The Superego in a
thousand uniforms,
You, the finger
man of the behemoth,
The murderer of
the young men...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:36:01 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Visions of Cody JK speaks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/soundsource.html
The Kerouac
singing sound is an outtake from the Blues and Haikus session.
The
"meaningless goof" sample is a passage from Visions of Cody called
Neal
and the Three
Stooges. Note how in this passage he says "Neal knows his
name" rather
than "Cody knows his name." Kerouac wrote with using real
names and changed
them later before publication. This recording was made
before Visions of
Cody was published.
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:45:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: freshman clearing house
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<<hello
freshman!!>>
Matt writ:
<<
>>In
"Kerouac" <hm> trying to get the spelling right, I noticed that
the
>>only
vowel missing from his name is "I".
Kerouac is missing an eye.
>>missing
his i. I think I feel we have his i and
it should beat that
>>way. chi-i-kerouac
>
> I not I
> no I
>
> If you have his original face (from before
he was born, of course)
> please return it to the library.
>
> I think JK was being facetious when he
said "praised be man"...I
> really do.
>
>>
Well, I don't
know that JK quote or its context.
You'll have school me.
I do know, from my reading of Joyce, that it
is possible to
mathematically
prove that Shakespeare's son was actually Hamet's father
(or something
like that). And according to the
"Ulysses" story, you'll
have to pepper me
with a few pints to get the whole equation out o' me.
Thought of this
'cause you say <<I not I // no I>> which somewhat
reminds me of the
"to be, or not to be" line from Hamlet. Taking this
charade along,
can it be said that when KEROUAC said "praised be man"
<<hmm>>
maybe he was lamenting the fact that Juliet got the "B" in her
bonnet and not
he. All JK had was a good ending in
"C" <<hm>>.
wondering what
Kerouac sounded like. Will have to
listen to more of my
"Kick Joy
Darkness" album, I suppose. Joyce
reads nicely. He doesn't
quote his
characters when they are speaking, so you have to slow down
the reading pace,
and decipher what is being <<thought>> and what is
being
<<said>>.
Matt, you still
there? What are you reading these
days?? OR seen any
good art exhibits
recently?? equally curious.
>> matt
Douglas
<<who has a dog of an unborn face>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:54:00 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
Mime-Version: 1.0
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am now
dangerously careening down the hillside with HST and the angels,
about to break
out into hoodlem circus/rape at bass lake
in the midst of brawls and runs and sleeping in grease
(not that these
subjects don't
hold a some what wacky fascination)
anyway, she said
impatiently to her brain get on with it!. ok , found
interesting
passage that taps into many a beat-l think tank or actual flame
tank wars:
HST: HELLS ANGELS
to whatever extent
the hell's angels may or may not be latent
sado-masochists
or repressed homosexuals is to me --after nearly a year in
the constant
company of outlaw motorcyclists--almost entirely irrelevant.
there are
literary critics who insist that ernest hemingway was a tortured
queer and that
mark twain wass haunted to he end of his days by a penchant
for interracial
buggery. it is good way to stir up in a tempest in the
academic
quarterlies but it wont change a word of what either man wrote,
nor alter the impact
of their work on the world they were writing about.
perhaps manolete
was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered from terrible hemmhoids
as a restly of
long nights in spanish horn parlors..but he was a great
matador and it is
hard to see how any amount of freudian theorizing can
have the slightes
effect on the reality of the thing he did best.
1)sound familiar;
2)name that
thread! (or 4 or 5..)
you will win
absolutely nothing.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:54:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
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Sherri writ:
>> waters
fine. <smiles>
yes,
and if the waters
_beat_ on you,
high above your
head, well,
ride the waves
instead. :-)))))))))))))
>> Paix,
>> Sherri
Douglas
<<everybody beat surfin'... >>
Hi Sherri! Hi Becca!
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:08:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
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Marie rode in and
spit:
><< from
HELLS ANGELS by HST]]
>for
interracial buggery. it is good way to stir up in a tempest in the
>academic
quarterlies but it wont change a word of what either man wrote,
>nor alter the
impact of their work on the world they were writing about.
>perhaps
manolete was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered from terrible hemmhoids
>as a restly
of long nights in spanish horn parlors..but he was a great
>matador and
it is hard to see how any amount of freudian theorizing can
>have the
slightes effect on the reality of the thing he did best.
>>
All I'm gonna say
is that nobody ever told me in college that Warhol was
gay. same for Robert Rauschenberg and a few choice
others. And besides
sexual
preference, I'm sure I could remember a few other "overlooked"
bits. Such facts might not "change a
word" or "alter the impact"; yet
for
interpretation's (and appreciation's) sake, these <<messy>> tidbits
are good to
know. Sure as hell explains the Liz
Taylor and Judy Garland
fetishes. Sure explains RR's relationship to Jasper
Johns. another
depth to plow.
and I'll need to
go back and check my "fucking little boys Ginsberg"
beat-archives. but really, this is important information on
a certain
level. Granted, there are many levels and and and
the author is dead
yada yada. But why not have all the facts and then
discuss what is
relevant?? This is not intended as a flame or anything
like that BTW.
:-)
>> you will
win absolutely nothing.
How about a free
issue of National Conquistador??
>> mc
cheers,
"badass" Douglas <<a
former Honda moped boy>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:30:21 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: jazz and the prairies
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Read this in the
paper today, thought I'd share it with the rest of
you...
Ross Porter, host
of CBC radio's jazz show, After Hours, on how living
on the prairies
is like being a jazz musician:
*Everyone thinks
you're crazy for doing it.
*Just when things
seem like they can't get any worse, they do.
*Everyone keeps
reminding you how things were better 30 years ago.
*You only get
media attention when something bad happens.
*Upside: You're
always one hour ahead of what's happening on the West
coast.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:41:12 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWalk thru Madness -- the endings...
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these three
conclude the thing. =20
>From FireWalk
Thru Madness, copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
Random Songs.
Dylan sings Lily,
Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts -- it sounds
different than
Joan=92s version when she dad to hope that she could know
the words. =93Two doors down the boys finally made it
through the wall=94
and I think of
Pink Floyd and other walls -- boundaries between us that
seems like walls,
Berlin Walls, Iron Curtains -- between our souls.
Thinking about
the Jack of Hearts makes me think about solitaire by the
River. It was the Iowa River when I started but it
was the River Styx
when Anne found
me to sign the papers.
A Simple Twist of
Fate. =93They sat together in the
Park=94 Lucy and Da=
vid
-- she made him
feel comfortable with open relationships ... =93a little
confused I
remember well=94 I sat under a tree at Washington University
while she danced
inside. His mind danced outside and the
words flowed
from his pen like
they do now on the paper as fast as I can write. In
St. Louis --
Boyhood home of Burroughs -- =93felt an emptiness inside to
which he just
could not relate=94 when the car spun out of control on
Highway 61 and
not a scratch on the car or on me. =93I
was born too late=
=94
he thinks of
Twisting Fate as the harmonica drones.
Lucy=92s in New
Mexico and Clapton sings His confession =93I shot the
sheriff=94 and I
never can figure out who did shoot the deputy -- Unsolve=
d
Mysteries and
America=92s Most Wanted. Self
Defense. =93Capital Offense=
=94.=20
Self
Offense. Capital Defense. =93Kill it before it Grows=94. Capital
Defense. Capital Punishment . =93Hang him,=94 they scream in their whit=
e
sheets and the
black man swings innocently from the tree -- Dead for his
innocence. =93Reflexes got the better of me=94.
My reflexes
fear. Put up walls, boundaries to keep
the bottom from
dropping
out. The bottomless pit when I fall
through the wall I called
the floor of my
soul. No grounding. No gravity.
Topsy-Turvy. Crazy.=20
Inside and
Out. =93Just about to Lose My
mind.=94 =93My Momma said I=92=
m
crazy=94. =20
She visited me in
the hospital and brought me my sister=92s guitar and Da=
n
taught me Hank
Williams=92 songs =93I=92m So Lonesome I could Cry=94 on h=
is Red,
White, and Blue
Buck Owens=92 guitar -- living in the hospital in Saint
Joe on Tulsa Time
in Franciscan living in a difference time zone beyond
time ... temporal
dimension ... Interzone ... Naked Lunch ... and all I
wanted was a
Naked Breakfast with Linda my high school sweetheart.
=93Lay Lady
Lay=94 Linda ... Aunt Abby when I was Teddy =93You=92re a Big=
Girl
Now=94 working
for the Supreme Court =93and I=92m just
like that bird si=
nging
just for
you.=94 =93I hope that you can hear me
singing through these
tears.=94 And you=92ve moved to Nashville =93I can make
it through.=94 =
I
scream to myself
make it through the walls of my mind.
=93Love is so
simple.=94 I=92m so simple. Simply Complex. =20
=93What=92s the
sense of changing horses.=94 =93I=92m
going out of my mi=
nd.=94 =93A
corkscrew in my
heart.=94 And I=92m still sitting on the
Red Couch in th=
e
Salvation Army
and it=92s Halloween and I=92m still there dressed as a
mannequin for
Halloween. I stayed home avoiding the
Ritual.
=93If you see her
say Hello.=94 I send this to all in San
Francisco,
Jerusalem,
=93Tangier.=94 =93She might think i=92ve
forgotten her -- don=
=92t tell
her it isn=92t
so.=94 But I want to call, to
connect. =93She still live=
s
inside of
me.=94 Do I live inside of her? I just want to know that I
still live there
too. I never wanted to own her or trap
her. I just
wanted her to be
happy.
=93Now I hear her
name here and there as I go from town to town=94 and
freeze up inside
and I howl inside and at the yellow moon.
=93All went b=
y
so fast.=94 I wish she=92d find me. Should I tell her I=92m moving? =20
I wish someone
could understand why I loved her.
SCARED
November 1992
He looked a
little like DeNiro in Angel Heart. No
red cape. No horns.=20
Luficer in human
form, surrounded by a fog -- a haze. As
I moved closer
the fog lifted
from his face. His eyes were Fire Red
and lasers shot
from them cutting
through the fog. Face to Face with Satan
-- And I
Wasn=92t Scared.
Then he waved his
arm and the fog vanished and the cavern was lit by
fire and in the
throne beside him I saw Anne. Chained to
the throne.=20
Cold, hard
manacles connecting her wrists to the chair=92s arms. Another
manacle around
her neck with chains tied to the rungs of the chair
back. =20
And I looked at
her face. Her eyes were blood and the
smile a devious
demented smile,
an insane smile likes the sounds of laughter that came
from deep inside
her that night at the farmhouse. The
voices that were
not hers,
laughing at me -- Screaming that they had won -- that I was
broken. The laughter I felt pierce through me before
I dove into the
pit in my mind
after her. Trying to protect her. Save her.
The woman
I loved. And I Wasn=92t Scared.
I turned to him
As I felt the Rage inside me boiling, the Rage of one
who takes anger
inside, keeps it there, learns from it, draws on it -
like a power
source. And my eyes shot lasers back at
him. White
lasers. White light.
Cleansing. Love. Energy. =20
And I started to
speak and it was my words but it was like I was
watching
myself. Surprised that these feelings
were coming out.=20
Surprised at my
own power. My own energy. And I told him that I was
connected to all
the Devil=92s Advocates on earth and they cared about me
more than him.
=20
And then I
laughed in his DeNiro-like face and just said: =93You Lose!=94
The manacles
burst open on Anne=92s throne and the expressions on her fac=
e
changed and I saw
the woman I loved. The woman I
married. And I Wasn=92=
t
Scared.
Then she vanished
and he turned back at me and the cavern turned inside
out, upside
down. And I heard his laughter, Her
laughter from the
farmhouse and I
tried to run away but the paths all ended before they
started. Dead-ends.
Trapped. And Anne was free, But I
wasn=92t. And I
Was Scared.
FRENCH FATIGUE
FANTASY
Je Suis Fatigue
The only ine of
French I know
So that if I ever
visit France
I can be tired
And tell someone.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:43:37 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: >> respect and be watchful.
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> Patricia
writ:
>
>
><<the thing with brian was the best for me too. I saw the show at the
> >spenser
library here in lawrence, I like his
work on ply wood and glass
> >the best
next to the collaboration. Gyson was one
of his most favorite
> >people
and most important artistic influence. I
love one of his peices
> >which
was a red door.
> i am very
familiar with his art.>>
>
> I spent a
summer in Lawrence. Both my cousins went
there for school and
> I just hung
out one summer. Very cool town.
>
> I also liked
that 'light machine' (what was it called?) that twirled
> around and
one was supposed to sit and be hypnotized by it. Then the
> Robert
Rauschenberg piece was good to see. As
was the Basquait piece
> (the movie
had just come out). Still haven't heard
the Kurt
>
Cobain/Burroughs CD. Wish and Wish the
short films would make it TV or
> video (would
love to be able to rent them, easily).
For the longest
> time after
that exhibit, I went around trying out my "Burroughs" voice
> on all my
friends and relative. <<very
fun>>
>
> Of Burroughs
work, I've read about half of Naked Lunch, most of his
> recent dream
book (love his "land of the dead" stories, not being able
> to find a
good breakfast, etc), and some of the interviews in the Bunker
> book. There must be more of a connotation to the
"red door" than I am
> picking up
from these scattered literary fragments.
>
> Anytime you
wanna talk art, I'm here!!
>
> >> p
>
> >cheers,
Douglas
>
> PS: just about to sign off, when I remembered, looking
up, that I have
> had a
photograph of Burroughs on my office wall for about 2 years now.
> It's a xerox
out of a Vanity Fair article (photo by Annie Leibovitz). A
> prison sort
of photo. artistic criminal. Was good to see the detail
> and shadow
play in the originals. People always ask
me who that "old
> man"
is. I tell them he's my grandfather, of
sorts. Don't think they
> >really
believe me.
patricia writes
I absolutly love
doing his voice, the low timbre sugared with sacasim,
"well my
dear, don't call the police unless you have some idea of what
they are most
likely to do and if you want them to do that.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:07:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: >> respect and be watchful.
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><<patricia
writes
>I absolutly
love doing his voice, the low timbre sugared with sacasim,
>"well my
dear, don't call the police unless you have some idea of what
they are most
likely to do and if you want them to do that.>>
I wasn't aware
you were going to post this to the list, p!
No matter.
Don't know the
quote you cite, but I can hear it.
<<Wonderful>> My
favorite piece to
take-off from was his legendary "thanksgiving prayer"
reading. I've forgotten how it goes, but something
like "four score and
seven years ago,
......., I'd like to thank the indians [pause] for
getting
slaughtered [slight sarcastic pause] by drunken englishmennnn
[that low timbre
you mentioned]..." and then fast into his next line.
<<Wonderful>> It's what makes his Dream book so enjoyable
too. Can
just see
hunchback burroughs trying to find a good breakfast in the LOD:
~~~ "I'd
like to thank the cook [pause]
for deserting me [slight pause]
in my deepest hour of
need..." <<laughing
convulsively>>
It was
interesting to read in the Bunker book how upon arriving in New
York, he began
doing readings and was a smash hit. This
apparently shy
man found his
audience and increased his appeal. The
power of the
voice. Loved and saddened by the way Brion dressed
him up then too.
What a
freak! <<my hero>>
>back to
Joyce, Dogulas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:20:39 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
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Becca,
Excuse me, but ...I think you're
confused...In no way whatsover have I
participated in
the Nazi thread discussion...have deleted all those with
an itchy trigger
finger as the matter of fact...please aim your line of
fire somewhere
else.
Barb
Becca91894@aol.com
wrote:
>
> barbara--
>
> I read your
post on the beat list. although i am new
to the list and not
> necessarily
a great thinker, i thought maybe i would throw my ideas at you,
> since you
seemed interested.
> about
censorship: this may be waffling, i'll
just warn you about that now.
> it seems to me that censorship in general is
wrong. and like doug (i think)
> said, we
have to allow viewpoints we disagree with to be heard, or we
> endanger our
own freedoms of speech. however, when we
are discussing nazis,
> i'm inclined
to believe that censorship may have it's place.
nazi's are a
> dangerous
group, they regularly kill and destroy people's lives because they
> are
different. i wouldn't say that a nazi
party shouldn't be allowed to form
> (well, maybe
i would, i haven't really thought about it), but allowing a nazi
> web-site
where like-minded individuals can band together from all over is
> extremely
risky. i think we all can agree that
heinous atrocities were
> commited
under nazi leadership, and it seems irresponsible to me that we
> would help
these people come together and create a stronger bond than already
> exists. after all, one reason hitler came to power
was because the rest of
> the world
thought they should mind their own business and let germany do its
> thing. i think many things would be done
differently, in retrospect, but
> since there
is nothing we can do about what's already happened, we should
> learn from
our past mistakes and do everything possible to ensure that
> nothing like
the holocaust will ever happen again.
>
> i hope i
haven't been too forward in responding to your post.
>
> becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:24:03 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: >> respect and be watchful.
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
>
><<patricia writes
> >I
absolutly love doing his voice, the low timbre sugared with sacasim,
>
>"well my dear, don't call the police unless you have some idea of what
> they are
most likely to do and if you want them to do that.>>
>
> I wasn't
aware you were going to post this to the list, p! No matter.
> Don't know
the quote you cite, but I can hear it.
<<Wonderful>> My
> favorite
piece to take-off from was his legendary "thanksgiving prayer"
>
reading. I've forgotten how it goes, but
something like "four score and
> seven years
ago, ......., I'd like to thank the indians [pause] for
> getting
slaughtered [slight sarcastic pause] by drunken englishmennnn
> [that low
timbre you mentioned]..." and then fast into his next line.
>
<<Wonderful>> It's what
makes his Dream book so enjoyable too.
Can
> just see
hunchback burroughs trying to find a good breakfast in the LOD:
>
> ~~~
"I'd like to thank the cook [pause]
> for deserting me [slight pause]
> in my deepest hour of need..." <<laughing convulsively>>
>
> It was
interesting to read in the Bunker book how upon arriving in New
> York, he
began doing readings and was a smash hit.
This apparently shy
> man found
his audience and increased his appeal.
The power of the
> voice. Loved and saddened by the way Brion dressed
him up then too.
> What a
freak! <<my hero>>
>
> >back to
Joyce, Dogulas
patricia writes
i forgot, i try
to repost most of the stuff to to beat-l and should of
checked with
you, sorry. I wish there was more
discussion of the beat
related arts,
gyson being a good one to start with, i really love the
work of his that
i have seen. but don't know much about the man except
he is gone. The
"don't call the police" is a parapharase, i am terrible
about being
exact.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:57:25 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: MAIL PROBLEMS
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Hello folks,
I've noticed a
lot of posts having mail difficulties-either getting
or recieving
posts-me too. Ironically, my net provider sent this post
out earlier in
the day; I'm not sure if any of this info is helpful
or not so here
goes:
Subject: Update
Date: Thu, 3 Jul
1997 08:57:40-0500 (CDT)
From:
gods@bitstream.net
To: Stand666
Hello,
There are still a
few people who are not getting our
daily messages.
This is a holdover from our mail server
switchover and
should not be the case very soon.
We are still
having some trouble with USWEST concerning
connection quality
issues from some locations. The modem
pool and mail
server are working great--the people
having problems
are mainly but not exclusivly in the 822
exchange. USWEST
claims they are fixing it, but we should
all keep
harassing them until it is so. Please see the
bsu.announce
newsgroup for more info.
We will be closed
tomorrow July 4th, and Saturday July 5th.
Thanks for your
support.
Michael
Bitsteam
Underground, Inc.
http://www.bitstream.net gods@bitstream.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:19:04 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
Comments: To:
Marioka7@aol.com
i'll go for voc
as well. i haven't read it but have
meant to-- maybe this
will kick my butt
into gear and i'll get it finished.
here's hoping
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:20:59 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
Comments: To:
dkpenn@oees.com
hi douglas! now i really feel like part of the
list--somebody wrote my name
for all to
see.... <sniff> i'm so touched!!
heeheeheehee
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:39:11 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
Comments: To:
love_singing@msn.com
sherri--
thanks so
much. everybody has been friendly and
encouraging so far, so i'm
starting to feel
more comfortable, if maybe a little intimidated by the
knowledge
circulating around here. :) that'll just
give me more reason to
expand my beat
library, right? thanks for the
welcome. i'm sure you will
hear more from me
as time goes on.
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:42:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
ok gotta get out
and buy voc... haven't read it yet either... that'll make 16
bboks i got goin
now.... help i'm drowning in a sea of
words!!!
gasping,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 6:19 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
i'll go for voc
as well. i haven't read it but have
meant to-- maybe this
will kick my butt
into gear and i'll get it finished.
here's hoping
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:32:19 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
In-Reply-To:
<970703212057_136756683@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 6:20 PM -0700
7/3/97, FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last wrote:
> heeheeheehee
the trick, I'm
told, is to figure out how this relates to some sort of beat
technology. any quote unquote beat work. this will keep the snails happy
and us permission
to roam somewhat free. I guess. not a creative writing
class but an
empassioned discourse. <ahem, an
brief example>::
trigger trigger
I think he got me
in the liver
pork chop ad hoch
burroughs ate his
dinner
he shot a door
bled it read
spoke about a
river
arabesques in bed
little boys
with marks upon
their face
hanging
faciciously
their anus' a
shout
for propriety
Start the chase!!
run becca, run!
the beats will
get you!!
run to the
bookstore becca
run run...
<<ah, fuck this!>>
<<ahhhhhhh!!!,
[[eaten by a snail]]
well....,
I tried...>> :-)
> becca
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:57:32 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> am now
dangerously careening down the hillside with HST and the angels,
> about to
break out into hoodlem circus/rape at bass lake
> in the midst
of brawls and runs and sleeping in grease (not that these
> subjects
don't hold a some what wacky fascination)
> anyway, she
said impatiently to her brain get on with it!. ok , found
> interesting
passage that taps into many a beat-l think tank or actual
> flame tank
wars:
> HST: HELLS
ANGELS
> to whatever
extent the hell's angels may or may not be latent
>
sado-masochists or repressed homosexuals is to me --after nearly a year
>in the
constant company of outlaw motorcyclists--almost entirely
>irrelevant.
there are literary critics who insist that ernest hemingway
>was a
tortured queer and that mark twain wass haunted to he end of his
>days by a
penchant for interracial buggery. it is good way to stir up in
>a tempest in
the academic quarterlies but it wont change a word of what
>either man
wrote, nor alter the impact of their work on the world they
>were writing
about. perhaps manolete was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered
>from terrible
hemmhoids as a restly of long nights in spanish horn
>parlors..but
he was a great matador and it is hard to see how any amount
>of freudian
theorizing can have the slightes effect on the reality of
>the thing he
did best.
> 1)sound
familiar;
> 2)name that
thread! (or 4 or 5..)
> you will win
absolutely nothing.
> mc
Ah, shit, I
wanted to win something. But, does it have an impact on the
reality of what
we do best? Some of us careen wildy down
the hill with
the hell's
angels. Some of us read about it. Some of us write about it.
Some of us
theorize about it. I live therefore I
am. I write therefore
I am. I think therefore I am. Some of us create life out of fiction and
fiction out of
life. Some of us want to write the
biography or perhaps,
obituary, of the
first guy that tells a hell's angel he's a repressed
homosexual.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:38:10 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie--
I have to send
you my "Freewheeling Frank". I
had forgotten that HST
also covers a
Bass Lake rally as does Frank. You will
love the
parallels.
I'll reread my
HST's book which I have pretty much forgotten and let you
borrow
Franks. Nice "inside--outside"
comparison.
James Stauffer
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> am now
dangerously careening down the hillside with HST and the angels,
> about to break
out into hoodlem circus/rape at bass lake
> in the
midst of brawls and runs and sleeping in
grease (not that these
> subjects
don't hold a some what wacky fascination)
> anyway, she
said impatiently to her brain get on with it!. ok , found
> interesting
passage that taps into many a beat-l think tank or actual flame
> tank wars:
> HST: HELLS
ANGELS
> to whatever
extent the hell's angels may or may not be latent
>
sado-masochists or repressed homosexuals is to me --after nearly a year in
> the constant
company of outlaw motorcyclists--almost entirely irrelevant.
> there are
literary critics who insist that ernest hemingway was a tortured
> queer and
that mark twain wass haunted to he end of his days by a penchant
> for
interracial buggery. it is good way to stir up in a tempest in the
> academic
quarterlies but it wont change a word of what either man wrote,
> nor alter
the impact of their work on the world they were writing about.
> perhaps
manolete was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered from terrible hemmhoids
> as a restly
of long nights in spanish horn parlors..but he was a great
> matador and
it is hard to see how any amount of freudian theorizing can
> have the
slightes effect on the reality of the thing he did best.
> 1)sound
familiar;
> 2)name that
thread! (or 4 or 5..)
> you will win
absolutely nothing.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:59:32 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Visions of Cody--Notes and Queries
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OK, like a good boy I have started my Visions of
Cody assignment
(though I think I
have to throw in HST's Angel book with the other
things I am
simultaneously reading.)
Getting myself
into the rythm of VOC--enjoying Jacks high cholesterol
dinner reminsicences. Struck by his mention of Al Collins on the
radio
as Jack and
"Tom" are driving around. (p. 13 or my McGraw Hill
paperback).
Al "Jazbo" Collins is still doing
his "Purple Grotto" bit,currently
heard in the SF
area on KCSM-FM in San Mateo. Don't know
if it is
syndicated or
strictly local. Friday or Saturday night if memory
serves. I remember hearing Jazbo on alternative FM in
LA during the
60's in the Phil
Donohue, B. Mitchell Reed era. Seemed a flash from
the past at the
time but hadn't realized he went back to the late
forties.
Have a good
Independence Day everyone and take a toke for those of us
who will be
working anyway.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:05:07 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: the complete beat (experiment)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I'm still not
sure how to phrase. this I'm not
sure. the exact meaning.
How to beat? got to thinking about the term "beat
technology"
sitting on my
toilet, amusing myself. flipping thru my
"20th Century
Photography --
Museum Ludwig Cologne" book. had
another image first, then
sitting down to
scan the image, came upon another [see link to .gif below].
see page 610,
Eberhard Schrammen.
Following the
following like to see his "Untitled (self-portrait)" (1930).
gelatin silver
print, stencil photogram 23.8 x 17.9 cm
<<hm, how
is this beat??>>
<<hm??>>
Here's what the
text says:
> Schrammen remained active as an
artist, painter,
. graphic artist, and writer. There is little evidence
. of his written work
So give me
evidence of the complete beat! Well,
<<ahem>>, an example of
beat
technology: snails, gods, beets,
carrots, beetles, chickenheads, and
original crispies
((all invited to snap crackle and pop))
Beat as it
survives
today. still don't know what that
means <<damn>>. and am still
not sure how to
even phrase the question <<double damn>>. God help me
<<yes?>>.
Any
suggestions?? <<and p. no gunshots
thru doors will be accepted!>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Schrammen.gif
Douglas <<fireworks, homemade ice cream, good
friends = weekend>>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:00:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Germs
came into life
like a puzzled
panther
waiting to be
caged
but something
stood in the way
i was
never...quite...
tamed
--------------the
Germs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:03:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: correction
came into this
world
like a puzzled
panther
waiting to be
caged
but something
stood in the way
I was never
quite...
tamed...
-------the Germs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:34:49 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: correction
In-Reply-To:
<970704020359_-2113582237@emout15.mail.aol.com>
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At 11:03 PM -0700
7/3/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> came into
this world
> like a
puzzled panther
> waiting to
be caged
> but
something stood in the way
> I was never
> quite...
> tamed...
> -------the
Germs
yep. you must be a "badass" too!? something just doesn't fit
outside in
ah you were
looking scuttled
outside in
We already know you're ugly!
but do you know
I'm joking, I'm joking!!]]
yours, Douglas
<<
running
running
burning
bright
>>
from Jack Kerouac
"angel mine"
Angel mine be you fine
Angel divine
Angel milk what's your ilk
Angel bilk
Angel cash Angel Smash
Angel hash
from Pomes All
Sizes
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:19:40 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Scattered Poems
from Lucien
Midnight JK 1957
Dying is ecstasy,
I'm not a teacher, not a
Sage, not a
Roshi, not a
writer or master
or even
a giggling dharma
bum I'm
my mother's son
& my mother
is the universe
--
What is the universe
but alot of waves [was jack reading
And a craving desire about physics?]
is a wave
Belonging to a wave
in a world of waves
So why put any down
wave?
Come on wave, WAVE!
The
heehaw's dobbin
spring hoho
Is a sad lonely yurk
for your love
Wave lover
And what is God?
The unspeakable,
the untellable...
...No, -- what is
God?
The impossible,
the impeachable
Unimpeachable
Prezi-dent
of the Pepsodent
Universe
But with no body
& no brain
no business and
no tie
no candle and no
high
no wise and no
smart guy
no nothing, no
no-nothing,
no anything,
no-word, yes-word,
everything, anything, God,
the guy that ain't a guy,
the thing that can't be
and can
and is
and isn't...
How I wish I
could have put it so eloquently....
Bon niut mes
amies,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:08:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK/ HST
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970703210846Z-134@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
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douglas:
in addition to
sexual preference:
there have been
long discussions of what i call
the jack and the bottle - and all speculation
related to that. monday
morning
quarterbacking in a way, years later.
my take on this
(and you can insert any other behavior to it)
he drank.
and he wrote.
i dont think he
wrote because he drank;
i dont think he
drank because he wrote;
i think he wrote
because he HAD to, was writing for years as child and
never stopped.
he may have
started drinking to ease self in social situations (akward and
shy) or to
medicate away the pain of his sensitivity and depressions.
but imho,
all speculation
about what he coulda been if he didnt drink is all moot to me.
('i couldda be a contendor! (brando on the
waterfront) and all that.
speaking of
HST/motorcycles/bad boys/legends and real life:
watching the
wild bunch while
i strip down my bicycle, wearing my 'colors' on this day.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:08:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
In-Reply-To: <33BBF61C.52DE@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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it seems that the
votes are for Cody. as i am hip deep in gonzo land, but
wanting to be
part of the discussion,
i plan for the
VOC thread to compare some passages from romantic JK re:
cassady's
chilhood with passages from FIRST THIRD by cassady. should be
fun, at least
will maybe stir up some interest in more folks to read of
neal's childhood
from neal himself. living on the denver equivalent of skid
row with drunken
father, traumatic childhood to say the least.
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.) it's really all theory and what you want to read
into things, but
instructive and interesting never the less. and oh,
by the way, this reading is being played out
with HST parallel process:
between the much
more journalistic hells angels in
comparison to the wild
novel/gonzo journalism
of F&L in LV. i am pretty sure that the letters will
bear me out on
this, just got to get to them.
off to join the
wild bunch today.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:08:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: the complete beat (experiment)
In-Reply-To: <l03020900afe22fcbee3c@[208.193.147.131]>
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in that category
i think one must see bob kaufman as the compleat beat as well:
he threw himself
on car hoods, declaimng poems and poetic manifesto . he
wrote his pomes
with no plan for publishing them. many still exist solely
because friends
would follow him, picking up pomes written on cocktail
napkins and the
like...he was busted many times, (reminscent of lenny
bruce) and
targeted by 'authorities' -socrates also comes to mind: gadfly
of the beats to
the absolute end..
he spent
countless days and nights in prison for his total devotion to
anarchy and true
poetry. small quote from AG from intro to cranial guitair:
'he wasn't just
political, he was metaphysical, psychological, surreealist,
and enlightened
in extending his care into the whold society of poetry,
seeing that as
the revolution..."
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:51:00 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: independence day
For three days
the neighborhood has been sounding with bombs and whistles,
sirens of fire
trucks, machine-gun retorting firecracker strings, all day,
all night, like a
war, no cease-fire, like Beirut. Every two minutes a big
jet soars away
from SeaTac, carrying people on holidays like torpedoes
launching from
submarines, on target.
And evening comes
on the third of July and the town is shutting down. You can
hear it. You can
feel it. Everyone is gone somewhere. In ice chests
watermelons chill
alongside beer and the sun stays up in the sky to stare
into people's
windows, causing a breeze to run around it like a puppy looking
for a tussle,
tossing up bamboo shades, weak ramparts against the unrelenting
horizontal rays
of this star made of fire.
No cars on the
streets... people walk right down the middle of the avenues,
some drinking
from brown paper bags, others sweating in uniforms dying to get
home to have one
day off, one lousy extra day off, for any reason at all.
Previously
unheard bird calls issue forth from bushes, these birds now
willing to speak
because they don't have to compete with cell phones and car
horns and
beepers. Little children's voices are the only sounds of human
life, except the
echoing of a basketball hard and hollow hitting the concrete
driveway over and
over and over and over goddamit shoot goddamit... god.
Small planes,
float planes, planes dragging signs through the thick blue air,
revving like
lawnmower looking for clouds to trim, fly east to west, west to
east, at right
angles to the jets where passengers hear, "This is the captain
speaking... if
you'll look out the window to your left, you'll see Puget
Sound and the
Olympic Mountains. And not to be outdone, to the right you'll
see the Cascades
and Bill Gates' fortress on the shores of Medina, right here
in the Emerald
City..."
It feels like I'm
the only one left in town, although I know that isn't true,
but it's
something I've always dreamed about, so it's okay with me. I'm
amazed at the
quiet. I don't know when was the last time this town was so
still. I'm
thinking about Central Washington, 100 degrees as usual, and this
little breeze...
over there this breeze can whip a firecracker in the grass
into a wildfire
before you can even get the garden hose turned on. I'm so
glad to be here,
not in that place which is truly next door to hell, where
the smell of
sulfur dominates chicken barbecuing on the grill and the heat
makes you sit in
the kiddies' pool without shame, where borate bombers drop
their puny cargo
with the efficacy of a wad shot into a condom, then drone on
back to base camp
for another load of blood-red dust and lots of summer
overtime pay for
the pilot.
5 a.m. on the 4th
of July and I wake up to those birds; I hadn't even noticed
when they stopped
singing. Now the sun breaks red over the ridge in the east,
still staring
through jet streams but cool and bright, a joker setting this
town up for this
day of uncertain weather. In a few minutes the jets will
start up again,
firecrackers will accompany breakfast, flags will be
unfurled, maybe
it'll start raining. Will I ponder the nature of freedom or
eat potato salad?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:05:58 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
while jack may
have been romaticizing, let us never forget that human memory
is incredibly
subjective and that much is played through the filter of who we
are ane what we
have done/become over time. i think
neal's version would be
(haven't had a
chance to read it yet) even more interesting for the insight
into hwo he views
himself, in addition to who he really is.
thanks for
reminding me that i need to "First Third".
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 5:08 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
it seems that the
votes are for Cody. as i am hip deep in gonzo land, but
wanting to be
part of the discussion,
i plan for the
VOC thread to compare some passages from romantic JK re:
cassady's
chilhood with passages from FIRST THIRD by cassady. should be
fun, at least
will maybe stir up some interest in more folks to read of
neal's childhood
from neal himself. living on the denver equivalent of skid
row with drunken
father, traumatic childhood to say the least.
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.) it's really all theory and what you want to read
into things, but
instructive and interesting never the less. and oh,
by the way, this reading is being played out
with HST parallel process:
between the much
more journalistic hells angels in
comparison to the wild
novel/gonzo
journalism of F&L in LV. i am pretty sure that the letters will
bear me out on
this, just got to get to them.
off to join the
wild bunch today.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:01:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707041511150680@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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>while jack
may have been romaticizing, let us never forget that human memory
>is incredibly
subjective and that much is played through the filter of who we
>are ane what
we have done/become over time. i think
neal's version would be
>(haven't had
a chance to read it yet) even more interesting for the insight
>into hwo he
views himself, in addition to who he really is.
__________
i didnt forget:
and i quote
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.)
the reality is
not first third, but of neal's memories which make up the
first third.
reality vs
romancizing *or* human memory.
i constantly question
reality as much as i question my perceptions/memories
from the reality.
and then i get
hung up wondrin'
what is reality?
probably no more than a perception of an event action or
being on the part
of the beholder.
so in doing this
comparison there are always 3 particpants: the memorybabe
romantic jack;
the life as a work of art itself neal; and the reader.
(my last career
and what i face daily these days have everything to do with
memory from
academic experiments to psychotherapy.)
,mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:14:20 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: JK/ HST
In-Reply-To: <l0302090aafe25516ddb3@[206.25.67.110]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 5:08 AM -0700
7/4/97, Marie Countryman wrote:
> but imho,
> all
speculation about what he coulda been if he didnt drink is all moot
>to me.
> ('i couldda be a contendor! (brando on the
waterfront) and all that.
> speaking of
HST/motorcycles/bad boys/legends and real life:
watching the
> wild bunch
while i strip down my bicycle, wearing my 'colors' on this day.
Today is my blood
father's birthday. such a 50 generations
man. love of
family, love of
wild hares and practical jokes, and in the past -- the
drink. Mum seperated from him at my early age (2),
and we've just gotten
back in contact
with each other, so I have yet to ask him, "hey paw, could
you have been a
conquistador??"
and as one who
has dabbled in a better life through chemicals, I would hope
that what you
suppose about needing to write is true.
yes, writing is
true. but there is no denying the color and
half-back tone of the drink
(or what not)
there as well.
[[there can be no
denial of the truth]] -- a yoko ono marathon, a yoko ono
marathon, a yoko
ono marathon, a yoko ono marathon, a yoko ono marathon
[[the sound in me
head this morning quoting my friend diana and her siren
songs]]
sometimes I think
my whole family is medicated. all of us
running from the
bulls. does Michael Jordan just drink Gatorade? ah questions about da
drink. if the man intends on remaining an island,
often times the only
recourse is to
drink himself to land?? an isthmus of
peace and
tranquility?? If anything, I must say that da drink only
irritates the
mind, and very
occassionally the reader. With that said,
and my own
patience
exploded, it's time for my coffee (or perhaps orange juice) today.
happy 4th!, >
mc
cheers,
Douglas <<preparing my run to Lala
country>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:14:15 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Visions of Cody--Notes and Queries
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> OK, like a good boy I have started my Visions of
Cody assignment
> (though I
think I have to throw in HST's Angel book with the other
> things I am
simultaneously reading.)
>
> Getting
myself into the rythm of VOC--enjoying Jacks high cholesterol
> dinner
reminsicences. Struck by his mention of
Al Collins on the radio
> as Jack and
"Tom" are driving around. (p. 13 or my McGraw Hill
> paperback).
>
> Al "Jazbo" Collins is still doing
his "Purple Grotto" bit,currently
> heard in the
SF area on KCSM-FM in San Mateo. Don't
know if it is
> syndicated
or strictly local. Friday or Saturday night if memory
> serves. I remember hearing Jazbo on alternative FM in
LA during the
> 60's in the
Phil Donohue, B. Mitchell Reed era. Seemed a flash from
> the past at
the time but hadn't realized he went back to the late
> forties.
>
> Have a good
Independence Day everyone and take a toke for those of us
> who will be
working anyway.
>
> J. Stauffer
Will add my notes
& queries on the first twenty or so pages to yours.
Things that
particularly struck me (page #'s seem to correspond to
your's.
pg. 8--"and
thinking 'Good thing I have my Proust--in case I should ever
follow him all
the way which is apparantly Paradise Alley over on the
river they'd see
not only how beat my copy is but that I seriously carry
it around because
I'm really reading it, really bemused in the streets
with it like
they'd be'--really a scholar, hip mystic..."
My copies of
Proust, sit, unread, something I was always going to do,
never did, can
anyone expound in a paragraph or so on Proust's style of
writing. Also have rememberances here of Ginsberg, if
I remember it
correctly,
"who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise
Alley, death, or
purgatoried their torsos night after night..."
pg. 10
"When I see
a leaf fall, I always say goodbye--And that has a sound which
is lost unless
there is country stillness at which time I'm sure it
really rattles
the earth, like ants in orchestras..."
pg 16-18--where
he talks about the immensity of reflection in window,
people and daily
goings on reflected, cars reflected, seeing parts of
things that are
there--distorted by wall of glass--("I know now that
paranoia is the
vision of what's happening and psychosis is the
hallucinated
vision of what's happening, that paranoia is reality, that
paranoia is the
content of things, that paranoia's never satisfied.")
pg. 25--George
Handy's "The Blues,"--"--'though there's joy in our souls
(bop interlude)
we are nothing but shits and we'll all die and eat shit
in our graves and
are dying now..' Pretty powerful talk!"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:23:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Germs
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:00 AM
7/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>came into
life
Isn't it: I came
into this world?
>like a
puzzled panther
>waiting to be
caged
>but something
stood in the way
>i was never...quite...
>tamed
>--------------the
Germs
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:24:44 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: correction
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:03 AM
7/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>came into
this world
Oh,
I read the first
one first, and replied before your correction.
Anyhow,
if you're even
talking about darby you'd better hide your beer.
>like a
puzzled panther
>waiting to be
caged
>but something
stood in the way
>I was never
>quite...
>tamed...
>-------the
Germs
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:36:20 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: FW: Visions of Cody JK speaks
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970703211233Z-136@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
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Content-Type:
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Rinaldo writ;
>
>http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/soundsource.html
> >
> >The
Kerouac singing sound is an outtake from the Blues and Haikus session.
thanx for posting
this. especially enjoyed hearing:
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/RRE2.au
I imagined his
voice different. and that cool jazz in
the background
scrunches against
my perceived memory. it's such an even
voice, almost
without
inflection. Am gonna have to hear
more. <<Rhino!!>>
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:39:40 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> I didnt
forget: and i quote
> i think it
> gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the
>reality
> (or, at
best, the memories of neal
> vs JK's
romanticizing.)
> the reality
is not first third, but of neal's memories which make up
>the
> first third.
> reality vs
romancizing *or* human memory.
> i constantly
question reality as much as i question my
>perceptions/memories
> from the
reality.
> and then i
get hung up wondrin'
> what is
reality? probably no more than a perception of an event action
>or
> being on the
part of the beholder.
> so in doing
this comparison there are always 3 particpants: the
>memorybabe
> romantic
jack; the life as a work of art itself neal; and the reader.
> (my last
career and what i face daily these days have everything to do with
> memory from
academic experiments to psychotherapy.)
> ,mc
Your perceptions
of this seem pretty 'right on to me.'
Reality can be no
more than "a
perception of an event or action on the part of the
beholder." We often tried to grasp hold of something and
say, "see, here
is reality, look
at it. But it doesn't work. There are always several
realities at
play, one for each participant. Jack's romantic reality,
Neil's reality
tempered by experience, and the reality of the reader.
And in discussing
VOC, we all bring together each of our different
realities as
readers. Intriguing, isn't it?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:14:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
In-Reply-To: <33BCA8BC.26B0@together.net>
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DC, kudos to you
for succintly putting my gropings into sharp and clear words:
"There are
always several
realities at
play, one for each participant. Jack's romantic reality,
Neil's reality
tempered by experience, and the reality of the reader."
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:12:06 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Bruce Cockburn
from Bruce's 1984
album "Stealing Fire"
Maybe the Poet
maybe the poet is
gay
but he'll be
heard anyway
maybe the poet is
drugged
but he won't stay
under the rug
maybe the voice
of the spirit
in which case
you'd better here it
maybe he's a
woman
who can touch you
where you're human
male female slave
or free
peaceful or
disorderly
maybe you and he
will not agree
but you need him
to show you new ways to see
don't let the
system fool you
all it wants to
do is rule you
pay attention to
the poet
you need him and
you know it
put him up
against the wall
shoot him up with
pentothal
shoot him up with
lead
you won't call
back what's been said
put him in the ground
but one day
you'll look around
there'll be a
face you don't know
voicing thoughts
you've heard before
male female slave
or free
peaceful or
disorderly
maybe you and he
will not agree
but you need him
to show you new ways to see
don't let the
system fool you
all it wants to
do is rule you
pay attention to
the poet
you need him and
you know it
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:04:14 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: More Bruce
from the same
album, one of my faves...
Sahara Gold
dance music from
the corner bar
over dogs barking
at a passing car
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
hot night streets are full of life
carnival faces in
rembrandt light
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
half moon shining
though the blind
paints a vision
of a different kind
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
wet limbs striped
with silver light
locked together
at the center of the night
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
night bloom
fillin up the room
with the salt and
musk of lovers' rich perfume
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
animal grins and
wild shining eyes -
laughing and
shouting we're a hundred storeys high
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
just happen to
like this song/poem... maybe someday
i'll get brave enough to
post some of my
own pitiful poetry...
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:26:23 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
yeah, i think
reality is only the moment, nothing more, nothing less, it's all
here and now, no
past no future, all one... who know's
what's really
happened, or if
anything's happened...? i get caught in
this cycle all the
time.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 9:01 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
>while jack
may have been romaticizing, let us never forget that human memory
>is incredibly
subjective and that much is played through the filter of who we
>are ane what
we have done/become over time. i think
neal's version would be
>(haven't had
a chance to read it yet) even more interesting for the insight
>into hwo he
views himself, in addition to who he really is.
__________
i didnt forget:
and i quote
i think
it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.)
the reality is
not first third, but of neal's memories which make up the
first third.
reality vs romancizing
*or* human memory.
i constantly
question reality as much as i question my perceptions/memories
from the reality.
and then i get
hung up wondrin'
what is reality?
probably no more than a perception of an event action or
being on the part
of the beholder.
so in doing this
comparison there are always 3 particpants: the memorybabe
romantic jack;
the life as a work of art itself neal; and the reader.
(my last career
and what i face daily these days have everything to do with
memory from
academic experiments to psychotherapy.)
,mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:39:26 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: the meaning of...
Reply to message
from country@SOVER.NET of Fri, 04 Jul
>
>in that
category i think one must see bob kaufman as the compleat beat as well:
>he threw
himself on car hoods, declaimng poems and poetic manifesto . he
>wrote his
pomes with no plan for publishing them. many still exist solely
>because
friends would follow him, picking up pomes written on cocktail
>napkins and
the like...he was busted many times, (reminscent of lenny
>bruce) and
targeted by 'authorities' -socrates also comes to mind:
and so on...what
caught my attention was the line, "he wrote his poems with
no plan for
publishing them." A few years ago
(okay, two) I took a course
at my college
called "The Moral Positions of
Poetry," in which we
discussed poetry
& its meaning, its purpose, its obligation to society, if
it had any at
all. And one day our conversation was
over this: if you
write a poem, but
don't publish it, don't let anyone else read it, can it
really be a
poem? If the words are written down but
then never read, can
it really be a
work of art? Isn't there an obligation
to let your work be
heard once it's
been written? Which consequently leads to thoughts of who
makes the poem,
the writer writing the words on paper with their feelings &
emotions, or the
reader who reads the words and adds new feelings &
emotions? Is a poem really a poem if it's not
read? Kind of like the
question about
the tree in the woods...
Okay, my head
hurts. Happy fourth of July; going to my
friends soon with a
gallon of OJ
& a bottle of sloe gin...let the fireworks begin! :)
Diane. (H, as
opposed to C or D)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:45:57 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: independence day
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Diane....still
existing in unbeknownst pockets of civilization are those
thrilled by the
Fourth of July... people haven't abandoned our
town..it's alive
with sparkle of excitement....kids booming with
energy..the
picnics and parties and swimming...the adults happy..glad to
live in this
country. And when the jets zoom
overhead..or when I get a
glimpse of the
ungainly stealth... I think....YEAH! I like my country,
the people
here...and am grateful to the men and women and taxpayers who
are willing to
sacrifice for it. My son painted the
American
flag....three red
stripes and a splatter of blue in the corner. It's
hanging on my
fridge. I love it. That flag gives you
the right...to
express your
contempt for your country and fellow Americans.
I,
however, on this
particular day, would like to say how damn,
dingle-dangle
lucky I am to live here, and raise children here, and be a
part of something
I can take pride in ...and change if I see a need.
Barbara
Cheers for those who keep our freedom
alive...and those who died
creating it.
Diane De Rooy
wrote:
>
> For three
days the neighborhood has been sounding with bombs and whistles,
> sirens of
fire trucks, machine-gun retorting firecracker strings, all day,
> all night,
like a war, no cease-fire, like Beirut. Every two minutes a big
> jet soars
away from SeaTac, carrying people on holidays like torpedoes
> launching
from submarines, on target.
>
> And evening
comes on the third of July and the town is shutting down. You can
> hear it. You
can feel it. Everyone is gone somewhere. In ice chests
> watermelons
chill alongside beer and the sun stays up in the sky to stare
> into
people's windows, causing a breeze to run around it like a puppy looking
> for a
tussle, tossing up bamboo shades, weak ramparts against the unrelenting
> horizontal
rays of this star made of fire.
>
> No cars on
the streets... people walk right down the middle of the avenues,
> some
drinking from brown paper bags, others sweating in uniforms dying to get
> home to have
one day off, one lousy extra day off, for any reason at all.
> Previously
unheard bird calls issue forth from bushes, these birds now
> willing to
speak because they don't have to compete with cell phones and car
> horns and
beepers. Little children's voices are the only sounds of human
> life, except
the echoing of a basketball hard and hollow hitting the concrete
> driveway
over and over and over and over goddamit shoot goddamit... god.
>
> Small
planes, float planes, planes dragging signs through the thick blue air,
> revving like
lawnmower looking for clouds to trim, fly east to west, west to
> east, at
right angles to the jets where passengers hear, "This is the captain
> speaking...
if you'll look out the window to your left, you'll see Puget
> Sound and
the Olympic Mountains. And not to be outdone, to the right you'll
> see the
Cascades and Bill Gates' fortress on the shores of Medina, right here
> in the
Emerald City..."
>
> It feels
like I'm the only one left in town, although I know that isn't true,
> but it's
something I've always dreamed about, so it's okay with me. I'm
> amazed at
the quiet. I don't know when was the last time this town was so
> still. I'm
thinking about Central Washington, 100 degrees as usual, and this
> little
breeze... over there this breeze can whip a firecracker in the grass
> into a
wildfire before you can even get the garden hose turned on. I'm so
> glad to be
here, not in that place which is truly next door to hell, where
> the smell of
sulfur dominates chicken barbecuing on the grill and the heat
> makes you
sit in the kiddies' pool without shame, where borate bombers drop
> their puny
cargo with the efficacy of a wad shot into a condom, then drone on
> back to base
camp for another load of blood-red dust and lots of summer
> overtime pay
for the pilot.
>
> 5 a.m. on
the 4th of July and I wake up to those birds; I hadn't even noticed
> when they stopped
singing. Now the sun breaks red over the ridge in the east,
> still
staring through jet streams but cool and bright, a joker setting this
> town up for
this day of uncertain weather. In a few minutes the jets will
> start up
again, firecrackers will accompany breakfast, flags will be
> unfurled,
maybe it'll start raining. Will I ponder the nature of freedom or
> eat potato
salad?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:09:59 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: the meaning of...
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
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Diane M. Homza
wrote:
> A few years
ago (okay, two) I took a course
> at my
college called "The Moral Positions
of Poetry," in which we
> discussed
poetry & its meaning, its purpose, its obligation to society, if
> it had any
at all. And one day our conversation was
over this: if you
> write a
poem, but don't publish it, don't let anyone else read it, can it
> really be a
poem? If the words are written down but
then never read, can
> it really be
a work of art? Isn't there an obligation
to let your work be
> heard once
it's been written? Which consequently leads to thoughts of who
> makes the
poem, the writer writing the words on paper with their feelings &
> emotions, or
the reader who reads the words and adds new feelings &
>
emotions? Is a poem really a poem if
it's not read? Kind of like the
> question
about the tree in the woods...
>
> Diane. (H,
as opposed to C or D)
Diane:
If you write it
and it means something to you, then it is different from
the tree in the
forest because you hear the poem. The
tree in the
forest is heard
by no one. There are poets who never get
published,
even when they
want to be. There are poets who get
published that never
should be. So, it is the intent of the creator, isn't
it?
Then again, maybe
it is only a poem if it receives the American Poetry
Society Seal of
Authentic Poetry and is approved by both Newt Gingrich
and Jesse
Helms. Then it is real poetry.
Or maybe only if
it has been condemned to death by a reviewer at the New
York Times.
Or maybe only if
David takes it on a Firewalk and it comes back
unsinged.
Or maybe only if
WSB uses it for target practice.
Or maybe only if
HST finds it to be gonzo.
BTW, speaking of
HST, to those who have never read HST, the closing
portion of Fear
and Loathing on the Campaign Trail contains some straght
ahead writing
about politics. It is one of the finest
sociological
essays I have
seen written. It is not gonzo, but
brilliant and
insightful.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:23:55 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the meaning of...
heard that
Bentz. art is an experience. so even if it only occurs in one's
head, it's
experienced... that's enough for it to exist.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 12:09 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the meaning of...
Diane M. Homza
wrote:
> A few years
ago (okay, two) I took a course
> at my
college called "The Moral Positions
of Poetry," in which we
> discussed
poetry & its meaning, its purpose, its obligation to society, if
> it had any
at all. And one day our conversation was
over this: if you
> write a
poem, but don't publish it, don't let anyone else read it, can it
> really be a
poem? If the words are written down but
then never read, can
> it really be
a work of art? Isn't there an obligation
to let your work be
> heard once
it's been written? Which consequently leads to thoughts of who
> makes the
poem, the writer writing the words on paper with their feelings &
> emotions, or
the reader who reads the words and adds new feelings &
>
emotions? Is a poem really a poem if
it's not read? Kind of like the
> question
about the tree in the woods...
>
> Diane. (H,
as opposed to C or D)
Diane:
If you write it
and it means something to you, then it is different from
the tree in the
forest because you hear the poem. The
tree in the
forest is heard
by no one. There are poets who never get
published,
even when they
want to be. There are poets who get
published that never
should be. So, it is the intent of the creator, isn't
it?
Then again, maybe
it is only a poem if it receives the American Poetry
Society Seal of
Authentic Poetry and is approved by both Newt Gingrich
and Jesse
Helms. Then it is real poetry.
Or maybe only if
it has been condemned to death by a reviewer at the New
York Times.
Or maybe only if
David takes it on a Firewalk and it comes back
unsinged.
Or maybe only if
WSB uses it for target practice.
Or maybe only if
HST finds it to be gonzo.
BTW, speaking of
HST, to those who have never read HST, the closing
portion of Fear
and Loathing on the Campaign Trail contains some straght
ahead writing
about politics. It is one of the finest
sociological
essays I have
seen written. It is not gonzo, but
brilliant and
insightful.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:13:05 +0000
Reply-To: birdies@ix.netcom.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Birdie <birdies@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: The
Day-Glo Techno Trouser Club
Subject: Movies: Jack & Neil
Comments: To: Sherri
<love_singing@MSN.COM>
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Hi all,
Birdie here...new
to the list.
Is there an
archive of posts? a faq?
Has anyone seen
"The Last Time I Committed Suicide" ~ about a few months
in the life of
Neal Cassady during the 50's in Colorado? Heard it did
well at The
Sundance Film Festival and it has gotten a very good review
in The LA Weekly.
Also, I may have
missed posts about all this, but I've heard there is to
be a film made of
JK's "On The Road". Anyone know who is directing,
writing,
producing, starring in?
Stay cool!
Cheers then,
Birdie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:01:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody
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Hey,
Halftime of WNBA
so i'll take a moment to type a bit.
I have diligently
read a few pages in Cody several times now.
Each time
i come back to it
i end up starting over. Each time i
begin and end in
the same
fog. Maybe that's what it is supposed to
be - but maybe i'm
missing something
b/c i ain't as familiar with the larger context of all
of this as so
many of y'all.
i guess the
question that creates the fog in all of this is i have no
sense of what is
going on. it seems like JK is lost in
memory in
several different
cases - and maybe that is why i have no sense of place
or time or any
real sense of (dare i say) Reality.
it isn't that i'm
not alright with the a-reality of memory experience
but i'm having
one of those fears that i'm missing something that i need
to recall
later. i remember having this feeling
long ago the first time
i ever read
anything by JK.
so if there is
something more concrete than snapshots of memory and
longing for
connection with Cody in the first few pages somebody let me
in on what's
happening. if not, i'll just plunge
forward soon -
probably not
until the morning.
unrelated, i'm
gradually and slowly in a meandering style beginning a
retrospective
five years after the firewalk writings.
so far the
protagonist is a
bathroom that is becoming My bathroom in a particular
apartment named
#23. the title of the entire project is
"Salina" and it
begins with
epigrams by JK, WSB, and Kenneth Burke.
FireWalk was a mad
fit of typing
into and out of insanities i'd been in and out of for
several
years. Salina is, so far, an attempt to
employ creativity to
return from
chaos. The container called bathroom is
the focal point of
return. From this temple only time will tell how many
rooms and blocks
away the tale
will roam.
hope everyone
enjoyed their independence from King George and
subservience to
Bubba and Newt today.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:20:40 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Bubba and Newt
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David:
Jesse Helms is
the J Edgar Hoover of the 90's. I don't
know about his
preference for
evening wear, but he has more power that Newt or Bubba
Bill. I didn't do it, and if I did, it was only
once. Ask yourself,
would this
country be half as amusing if Day Quayle was president? No
way. Long live Bubba.
And now, we have
TAXATION DESPITE REPRESENTATION!!!!!!!
Thank God for
that!
>From the Book
of Dreams: pg 121
WRITING DREAMS,
TAKE NOTE OF THE WAY THE
DREAMING MIND
CREATES
THE ANNALS OF
JACK KEROUAC--Annals indeed--anal ones--the Mind wished
and dream'd
itself a spate of San Jose where I'm taken to the parking
lot of work at a
location I hadnt daydreamed, (word daydreamed
underlined) on
that road leading North from Santa Clara towards the yard
office and the
airport--and because I'm not drinking or smoking tea my
mind is very
clear and I'm very friendly and direct with everyone and
play with the
kids with a spirit of serenity etc.
Well, I think
I'll get me an Anal Kerouac Beer. Aged
since 1969.
Eternal in its
refreshing qualities and no more than a dime in US
currency. Get yours before the orgones are gones.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:43:34 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: JK/ HST
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marie--
Plaudits on far
and away the best analysis of Jack, the
Bottle and
assorted dopes.
J Stauffer
Marie Countryman
wrote:
> he drank.
> and he
wrote.
> i dont think
he wrote because he drank;
> i dont think
he drank because he wrote;
> i think he
wrote because he HAD to, was writing for years as child and
> never
stopped.
> he may have
started drinking to ease self in social situations (akward and
> shy) or to
medicate away the pain of his sensitivity and depressions.
> but imho,
> all
speculation about what he coulda been if he didnt drink is all moot to me.
> ('i couldda be a contendor! (brando on the
waterfront) and all that.
> speaking of
HST/motorcycles/bad boys/legends and real life:
watching the
> wild bunch
while i strip down my bicycle, wearing my 'colors' on this day.
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:56:50 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: BROTHER BENTZ
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Hey Bentz,
Helms is the new
Hoover=97which speaking of=97you should see the
XXX Hoover from
Slime Comix. Robert Peters sent me a copy for
$2.95. Robert's a
helluva fine writer and poet-a good friend
of C. Plymell.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:01:02 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> I have
diligently read a few pages in Cody several times now. Each
>time
> i come back
to it i end up starting over. Each time
i begin and end in
> the same
fog. Maybe that's what it is supposed to
be - but maybe i'm
> missing
something b/c i ain't as familiar with the larger context of
>all
> of this as
so many of y'all.
>
> i guess the
question that creates the fog in all of this is i have no
> sense of
what is going on. it seems like JK is
lost in memory in
> several
different cases - and maybe that is why i have no sense of
>place
> or time or
any real sense of (dare i say) Reality.
>
> it isn't
that i'm not alright with the a-reality of memory experience
> but i'm
having one of those fears that i'm missing something that i
>need
> to recall
later. i remember having this feeling
long ago the first
>time
> i ever read
anything by JK.
>
> so if there
is something more concrete than snapshots of memory and
> longing for
connection with Cody in the first few pages somebody let me
> in on what's
happening. if not, i'll just plunge
forward soon -
> probably not
until the morning.
>
My sense of the
beginning of VOC is that it is supposed to be "out of
time." No chronological sequence, just what is going
on in his head in
each moment as he
wanders around, remembering things, and describing in
great detail all
that he sees. Yes, longing for Cody at
this point. I
don't think we
will see any chronological sequences. My
expectation is
that these short
descriptive moments will just slowly turn into longer
ones that change
somehow, moments that go on for more and more pages,
perhaps continual
stream of consciousness or even beyond that.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:55:54 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Bubba and Newt
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> David:
>
> Jesse Helms
is the J Edgar Hoover of the 90's. I
don't know about his
> preference
for evening wear, but he has more power that Newt or Bubba
> Bill. I didn't do it, and if I did, it was only
once. Ask yourself,
> would this
country be half as amusing if Day Quayle was president? No
> way. Long live Bubba.
>
> And now, we
have TAXATION DESPITE REPRESENTATION!!!!!!!
>
> Thank God
for that!
>
I think Bubba
trumped Jesse when he picked a Dominatrix for Secretary of
State. Amazing after that rendevouz how Jesse
changed his tune on the
Chemical Weapons
Treaty !!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:28:00 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Comments: To:
stand666@bitstream.net
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In a message
dated 97-07-03 23:52:56 EDT, you write:
<< When we
first met he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
After awhile, I would show up at his place
(usually stoned) with some
beer. He would drink it and then throw me out.
I would just laugh and
eventually we became friends=97a very slow
process, I might add. When Ci=
ty
Lights released Charles Plymell's, "The
Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
was totally blown away. Here was a man that
spoke to my soul and had
been thru similar hells. It was like
discovering the "big brother" I
always wanted. I met Allen Ginsberg in '72,
and he turned me onto some
of the Beat writers, but I always returned to
Plymell as a Beat
source=97he had the edge that seemed to be
lacking in other writers at t=
he
time. >>
Richard:
How wonderful it
is to be mentioned with the idiots and assholes. We just
read your Pulse
interview. I printed so I could study it
a little more. =
I
read the list
every night but I hadn't seen it posted. Someone was asking
about the 666 a
while back. Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian armor=
". I
wonder how many
on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of =
his
orgone energy
luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube. =20
Be back in touch
later. I'll read the interview again
tonight.
Charley
Someone sent us a
new computer and we're just breaking it in.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:32:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Scattered Poems
Are angels coming
back now?
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:37:57 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody
Firewalking
firetalking. I met a woman from Big Sur tonight. Didn't think
I'd ever meet a
woman from Big Sur and here she was in Cherry Valley.
Yours in the
saline sunset.
An old salt.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:36:29 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Are angels
coming back now?
> C. Plymell
I think they made
the cover of TIME magazine a few years back -- but i
don't think its
the same crew of angels.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:44:48 PDT
Reply-To: Tamelyn Feinstein
<sleepytam@HOTMAIL.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tamelyn Feinstein
<sleepytam@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: greetings
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greetings to all
I'm new to the list. Am reading all I can about
Ginsburg and am
completely in love.
please send your
suggestions as to what I should read (I'm a bit of a
novice here) also
any great stories you have.
_______________________________________________________
Get Private
Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:11:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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If listmembers
are ignorant of W. Reich they should check him out.
Stricks me as the
only Psych. theorist to be a useful basis for the
hipster
revolution. A revolutionary like Pound
who looked to need
locking up. Does WSB still use an orgone box? I did some interesting
work with Chuck
Kelley who was a Reich disciple in LA and Ojai.
J Stauffer
Charles Plymell
wrote . . .
Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian
armor". I
> wonder how
many on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of his
> orgone
energy luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:15:24 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody
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How fitting to
have Big Sur come to Cherry Valley. May
crews of Angels
have given you
all a good Fourth, I'm going forth to watch the
fireworks, do
some firewalks, a Marswalk or two, and
maybe look for a
beer and a pool
game.
James Stauffer
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Firewalking
firetalking. I met a woman from Big Sur tonight. Didn't think
> I'd ever
meet a woman from Big Sur and here she was in Cherry Valley.
> Yours in the
saline sunset.
> An old salt.
> Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:30:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-03 23:52:56 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
When we first met he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
> After awhile, I would show up at his place
(usually stoned) with some
> beer. He would drink it and then throw me
out. I would just laugh and
> eventually we became friends a very slow
process, I might add. When City
> Lights released Charles Plymell's, "The
Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
> was totally blown away. Here was a man that
spoke to my soul and had
> been thru similar hells. It was like
discovering the "big brother" I
> always wanted. I met Allen Ginsberg in '72,
and he turned me onto some
> of the Beat writers, but I always returned to
Plymell as a Beat
> source he had the edge that seemed to be
lacking in other writers at the
> time. >>
>
> Richard:
> How
wonderful it is to be mentioned with the idiots and assholes. We just
> read your
Pulse interview. I printed so I could
study it a little more. I
> read the
list every night but I hadn't seen it posted. Someone was asking
> about the
666 a while back. Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian armor". I
> wonder how
many on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of his
> orgone
energy luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube.
> Be back in
touch later. I'll read the interview
again tonight.
> Charley
> Someone sent
us a new computer and we're just breaking it in.
Charles:
They have now
done experiments with electrical charges through cells.
If they keep it
at the approriate level, good health. If
they raise or
lower it, then
cancer grows. If they take it back, the
cancer is kaput.
Reich was
right. Alexander Lowen expanded on
Reich's theories in a
conventional
therapy way. He developed certain
exercises designed to
break up the
armor. Very good reading too.
peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:56:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: The
Drummer
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THE DRUMMER
The Drummer beats
out my rhythm
Dum-dum,
Dum-da-da-Dum
Dum-dum,
Dum-da-da-Dum,
Driving this
machine higher,
Making me see fire,
Driving this
machine higher!
Bam-bam,
dum-dum-dum
Bam-bam,
dum-dum-dum.
He carries the
beat,
He makes the
rhythm,
bum-da-bum-da-da-da-da
bum-bum-bum-da-dum-da-da
And the guitar
can fly,
So high, so high,
so high.
I feel electric,
My body is
wracked by snares,
My body is
tumbled by tom-toms.
And for three
years he was the BEST in the world.
A little white
boy,
Man, he was the
best!
King of the hill.
Now, cheap
hotels.
Week long drunks.
Stolen
friendships.
Forged
autographs.
Fraudulent deals
for a drink.
Better that he
had died.
Better than he
had died.
Such is the ugly
face,
Of bitterness
revealed,
Such is 4/4 time
ingrained,
That will not
stop.
Such is the fame,
That was a stone,
Around his neck.
Better that he loved
poppies.
Better that he
popped lovers.
Better that he
had disappeared.
Better that he
had gone to Mars.
Better that he
never saw Bars.
Better that he
never loved cheap wine.
Better that his
soul was saved.
Better that his
ego was sucked up.
Better that his
sticks had never beaten.
Better that his
live had not been liven.
Better that his
lies had not been given.
Better for me
that his three years were liven,
But that was
better for me, not him.
Better for me
that he made the music,
But the muses ate
his soul,
But refused his
body.
The muses are not
kind.
Nor are they
blind,
They refused his
body for a reason.
Death seemed too
good for him.
As he had no life
to live.
The drummer beat
the rhythm
Of the best rock
music
Has ever given.
Beat the rhythm,
Til he gave all
he had for giving.
The drummer beat
the rhythm,
But you listen
and know not what you're given.
The drummer beat
the rhythm.
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:52:11 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
In-Reply-To: <33BDC97A.2B46@pacbell.net>
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>If
listmembers are ignorant of W. Reich they should check him out.
>Stricks me as
the only Psych. theorist to be a useful basis for the
>hipster
revolution.
Orgones are cells
that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
drugs? i read On
the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot of
mention of
orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything about
Reich besides
beat references, but am wondering can orgones be dependent on
say, artistic
creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
completely wrong
about what they are?
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:52:46 -0500
Reply-To: Natalie Foster
<nfoster@SOUTHWIND.NET>
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From: Natalie Foster
<nfoster@SOUTHWIND.NET>
Subject: *quiet
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one can only look
at these posts so long without saying anything. =
sometimes I just
want to beging typing wildly, anything and everything =
on my blank white
computer screen and then send it in for it to appear =
curiously in each
of your boxes and i to sit here in Kansas knowing that =
each one of you
are in different time zones reading my thoughts and =
fears and judging
them, and possibly replying but probably not.
and so I don't.
and so I flip the
switch and got to bed...another
poem, story, line
lost
I just wanted to
write in tonight, seeing that it isn't so busy...and =
voice the fact
that all of you are so incredible in your ways...reading =
many of your
posts, one can come to see the personalities take form. One =
can learn so very
much. I have. from a quiet bystander on the list, =
thanks. Keep it
up. I have received the reading list for my Great Books =
colloquiem (sp)
in the Fall and realize that I won't be touching any of =
my favorites for
a while~ It is quite extensive. So I am placing Jack =
and Allen and
Gregory on the shelf for a while in favor of Milton, =
Sophocles and
Sappho. :( I know I will be glad I did it in the end, but =
it sure is hard
in the time being to read a set list that is placed =
before me!
Well, enjoy what is
left of the fourth~
Quietly at the
terminal,
natalie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:06:18 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Friday (afternoon, summer)
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Friday afternoon summer
blue collars clean out punching papers
bank closed
calm
calm
hasty employees swarm like ants
calm
calm
money has stopped working (except credit card)
&
pensioners have lost the cork of the bottle
&
cats
&
cats are dozing on the patio
&
cats wont' eat the poor birdies fallen
from the nest
&
clouds
clouds?
& the clouds turned pink from the
brush of canaletto
calm
calm calm
until
MONDAY
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*
"Io sono una
forza del Passato.
Solo nella
tradizione e' il mio amore."
Pier Paolo Pasolini
*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:19:54 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> >If
listmembers are ignorant of W. Reich they should check him out.
> >Stricks
me as the only Psych. theorist to be a useful basis for the
> >hipster
revolution.
>=20
> Orgones are
cells that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
> drugs? i
read On the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot =
of
> mention of
orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything about
> Reich
besides beat references, but am wondering can orgones be dependen=
t on
> say,
artistic creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
> completely
wrong about what they are?
>=20
> -leo
i'd be very
interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
experience with
these orgone notions. i've seen and
heard a bit over
years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
provide a very
important angle.
hope to hear more
tales of the legendary boxes.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:13:04 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>=20
> Orgones are
cells that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
> drugs? i
read On the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot=20
> of
> mention of
orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything=20
> about
> Reich
besides beat references, but am wondering can orgones be=20
> dependent on
> say,
artistic creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
> completely
wrong about what they are?
>=20
> -leo
> RACE ---
wrote:
>=20
> i'd be very
interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
> experience
with these orgone notions. i've seen and
heard a bit over
> years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
> provide a
very important angle.
>=20
> hope to hear
more tales of the legendary boxes.
>=20
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
The cell
explanation makes some sense, but where does the box come in?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:30:33 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody
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I'm now at the
letter at the end of part 1, pgs. 38-43, seems like we are
finally being set
up for JK's writing about Cody, which looks like
it's about to
begin in part 2, getting past the yearning to the point
where we are told
why Cody means so much to him.
Can you imagine
receiving this letter? Reveals a tremendous amount about
what is going on
in JK's head:
"anybody who
knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about in my
secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows of time
and personality, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the way with
me...I am completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves you and
digs your greatness completely--haunted in the mind by
you..."
There have been
quite a few Joycian references up to this point, was this
the time he was
reading Joyce?
describing
Swenson (does anyone who Swenson refers to?) as "wrapping
himself around
doors, melting, like Bloom, most like Leopold Bloom in a
Dream..."
(odyssey structure referred to later).
Then, "I dig
Joyce and Proust above Melville and Celine, like you; and I
dig you as we
together dig the lostness and the fact that of course
nothing's ever to
be gained but our death..."
Also lots of
personal consciousness of death, guilt, and needing
something beyond
what he can find--soul-searching going on as in these
two passages:
"I am
conscious of my own personal tragedy...I have the persistent
feeling that I'm
going to die soon, only the feeling, no real I think
wish or
'premonition.' I feel like I've done wrong, to myself the most
wrong, I'm
throwing away something that I can't even find in the
incredible
clutter of my being, but it's going out with the refuse en
masse, buried in
the middle of it, every now and then I think I get a
glimpse....
"I really
know now, you'll see, of course everything is fine because I've
won (you see I
almost lost this summer, if I had gone to Mexico with
Julien instead of
re-remembering my soul in the hospital (Oh what things
I have or could
tell you about the hospital! what
literatures out of
just that one
month (remember the wheelchair letter?) for my big personal
knowledge of the
Odyssey structure (this is apart from objective
fragments of my
life to examine)--with Julien, Mexico, drunk, June dying,
I might have gone
under, that is seriously, in the habit of dying and
started doing it
and maybe even in the powerful gut feeling I had (and
still do, never
had it before, it makes me lush) maybe even a habit
itself, junk,
from sheer need to turn over before I kick the dog..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:53:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: AG, HST, HELL'S ANGELS, PRANKSTERS
Mime-Version: 1.0
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ok i'm just about
down to turn my hog in for fast cars and women re:Cody,
but before i do
here is a piece of history:
"during the
weeks prceeding the second march on the oakland army terminal,
AG spent much of
his time trying to persuade Barger and his people notto
attack the
marchers. on the wednesday before the march ginsberg, kesey,
cassady, some of
keysey's pranksters and a group of angels met at Barger's
housein oakland.
A lot of lsd was taken, foolish political discussion was
resolved by
phonograph voices of joan baez and bob dylan, all concluding
with the whole
group chanting the text of the Prajnaparamitra Sutre, the
buddhist highest,
perfect word sermon.
the outlaws had
never seen anyone quite like Ginsberg: they considered him
otherwordly.
'that goddamn ginsverg is gonna fuck us *all* up' said terry.
'for a guy that
aint straight at all, he's about the straightest son of a
bitch i ever
seen. man, you shoulda been there when he told sonny he loved
him...sonny didnt
know what the hell to say.'
the angels never
really understood what ginsberg meantginsverg meant, but
his unnerving frankness and the fact that
kesey liked him gave them
second thoughts
about attacking a march that he obviously considered a
Right thing.
shortly before the november march, ginsberg published this
speech in the
berkeley barb (please ignore typos, no caps, etc.)
To The Angels
these are the
thoughts-anxieties-of anxious marchers
that the angels will attack them
for kicks, or to get publicity,
to take th heat off
themselves
or to get the goodwill of
police&press/or right
wing money
That a conscious
deal has been made with oakland
police
or an unconscious rapport, tacit
understanding
mutual sympathy
that oakland will laly off persecuting
the angels
if the angels attack & break up the
march &
make it a riot
Is any of this
true, or is it the paranoia of the less
stable-minded marchers?
As long as angels
are ambivuous and don't give open
reassurance that they could be trusted
to be tranquil,
the anxious
souls, the naturally violent, the insecure, the
hysterics among
the marchers have an excuse for
policy of
self-defense thru violence,
a rationalization for their own inner
violence
That leaves the
marchers with choice of defending them-
selves thru force on a ccount of fear
& threat
unleashing the more irrational minority
of rebels
or at best,
defending themselves cool, under control
BUT CRITICIZED FOR BEING LAWLESS
or not defending
selves, and possible abandoned by
plice
(for we have no clear assurance from
oakland police
that they will sincerely try to
maintain order and guard
our lawful right to
march)
if you
attack,&having innocent pacifists, youths
&old ladies busted up
AND CRITICIZED AS IRRESPONSIBLE COWARDS
by you, by press, by public and by
violence loving leftists
& rightists
.........
You dont want to
"change" you want to be yourselves
& if that includes sadism, or
forced hostility,
here's a situation where you can get
away with it.
BUT NOBODY WANTS
TO REJECT THE SOULS OF
THE HELL'S ANGELS
or make them change-
WE JUST DON'T WANT TO GET BEAT UP
.......
what ELSE,
besides this politics, will take the heat
off the hell's angels?
that heat's on
everybody, no just you
to go to war, to be drafted,
to make money on war jobs and
&economy, to be destroyed
by Bomb, to get busted
for pot--
to take the heat
off, you've got
to take the heat off
INSIDE YOURSELFVES--
find peace means stop hating youself
stop hating people who hate you
stop reflecting HEAT
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HEAT
THE MOST OF PEACE MARCHERS ARE NOT HEAT
they want you to
join them to relieve
the heat on you & on all of us
...............
how much the
march will be a free expression
of calm people who have controlled
their own hatreds
and are showing
the american people
how to control their own feat &
hatred
and once and for
all be done with the pressure
building up to annhilate the planet
and take our part
ENDING THE HEAT on earth
(delivered as a
speech at san jose state college
monday november
15, 1965
before students
and representatives of
bay areas hell's
angels
on nov. 19--day
before the march--the angels called a pres conference to
announce that
they would not counterdemonstrate "in the interest of public
safety and the
good name of oakland....because our patriotic concern for
what these people
are doing to our great nation may provoke us to violent
acts.. [and that]
any physical encounter would only produce sympathy for
this mob of
traitors."
mc.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:50:04 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody
Very frustrated
that I haven't started reading VOC yet. Should be getting up
to City Lights
today. Looks amazing and fascinating,
thanks for whetting my
appetite even
further, Diane. If there's one thing I
can't resist, it's
anything that
refers to Ulysses... What a dunce I've
been for not reading
Cody sooner.
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 11:30 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Cody
I'm now at the
letter at the end of part 1, pgs. 38-43, seems like we are
finally being set
up for JK's writing about Cody, which looks like
it's about to
begin in part 2, getting past the yearning to the point
where we are told
why Cody means so much to him.
Can you imagine
receiving this letter? Reveals a tremendous amount about
what is going on
in JK's head:
"anybody who
knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about in my
secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows of time
and personality, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the way with
me...I am completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves you and
digs your greatness completely--haunted in the mind by
you..."
There have been
quite a few Joycian references up to this point, was this
the time he was
reading Joyce?
describing
Swenson (does anyone who Swenson refers to?) as "wrapping
himself around
doors, melting, like Bloom, most like Leopold Bloom in a
Dream..."
(odyssey structure referred to later).
Then, "I dig
Joyce and Proust above Melville and Celine, like you; and I
dig you as we
together dig the lostness and the fact that of course
nothing's ever to
be gained but our death..."
Also lots of
personal consciousness of death, guilt, and needing
something beyond
what he can find--soul-searching going on as in these
two passages:
"I am
conscious of my own personal tragedy...I have the persistent
feeling that I'm
going to die soon, only the feeling, no real I think
wish or
'premonition.' I feel like I've done wrong, to myself the most
wrong, I'm throwing
away something that I can't even find in the
incredible
clutter of my being, but it's going out with the refuse en
masse, buried in
the middle of it, every now and then I think I get a
glimpse....
"I really
know now, you'll see, of course everything is fine because I've
won (you see I
almost lost this summer, if I had gone to Mexico with
Julien instead of
re-remembering my soul in the hospital (Oh what things
I have or could
tell you about the hospital! what
literatures out of
just that one
month (remember the wheelchair letter?) for my big personal
knowledge of the
Odyssey structure (this is apart from objective
fragments of my
life to examine)--with Julien, Mexico, drunk, June dying,
I might have gone
under, that is seriously, in the habit of dying and
started doing it
and maybe even in the powerful gut feeling I had (and
still do, never
had it before, it makes me lush) maybe even a habit
itself, junk,
from sheer need to turn over before I kick the dog..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:12:34 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: big apologies from a girl who talks
too much (and to the
wrong person!!)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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7bit
Becca. absolutely
no problem whatsoever...although you may want to
withdraw that
offer of menial household work when you find out I have a
four yr old and
three yr old...I get to pick all sorts of fun and
interesting things out of the carpet! (did anyone know
that Lucky
Charms and milk
turn into superglue after 24 hours? its true...I've
stumbled onto a
trade secret or something) :)
Barb
Becca91894@aol.com
wrote:
>
> barbara--
>
> i'm
sorry. apparently i confused you with
someone else when responding to
>
"your" post. i meant no harm
and was not attempting to aim fire at
> anyone--it
was just a thought of my own that sort of corresponded with what
> the post was
about.
> i really has
no intention of offending anyone, and if i did so with my reply
> (as i
suspect i did) i'm truly sorry. look at
me, i'm on the list two weeks
> and i've
already alienated someone! i don't know
what to say except to
> apologize
profusely and hope you can accept that, since i can't be at your
> house to do
any menial work as punishment for upsetting you. :)
>
> hmmm. i wonder who i meant to send that to?
>
> again, i'm
very sorry for any negative feelings i caused you to feel.
>
> in
contrition,
>
> becca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:29:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
ok, i'll show my ignorance, what's the name of
the book? have to read it...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 9:30 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-03 23:52:56 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
When we first met he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
> After awhile, I would show up at his place
(usually stoned) with some
> beer. He would drink it and then throw me
out. I would just laugh and
> eventually we became friends a very slow
process, I might add. When City
> Lights released Charles Plymell's, "The
Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
> was totally blown away. Here was a man that
spoke to my soul and had
> been thru similar hells. It was like
discovering the "big brother" I
> always wanted. I met Allen Ginsberg in '72,
and he turned me onto some
> of the Beat writers, but I always returned to
Plymell as a Beat
> source he had the edge that seemed to be
lacking in other writers at the
> time. >>
>
> Richard:
> How
wonderful it is to be mentioned with the idiots and assholes. We just
> read your
Pulse interview. I printed so I could
study it a little more. I
> read the
list every night but I hadn't seen it posted. Someone was asking
> about the
666 a while back. Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian armor".
I
> wonder how
many on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of his
> orgone
energy luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube.
> Be back in
touch later. I'll read the interview
again tonight.
> Charley
> Someone sent
us a new computer and we're just breaking it in.
Charles:
They have now
done experiments with electrical charges through cells.
If they keep it
at the approriate level, good health. If
they raise or
lower it, then
cancer grows. If they take it back, the
cancer is kaput.
Reich was
right. Alexander Lowen expanded on
Reich's theories in a
conventional
therapy way. He developed certain
exercises designed to
break up the
armor. Very good reading too.
peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:39:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody/memory/dr sax
In-Reply-To: <33BDEA09.611C@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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ok down off the
hogs for a while. in codyville (the imaginary place that
denver becomes in
jack's mind -- hey for that matter, does anyone who has
heard the ryko
tribute CD kicks, etc - enjoyed mike stipe's piece with the
sad little tinny
music to accompany 'our gang' and the connection to jack's
brown room in
pawtucketville when he played all his elaborate games and
kept meticulous
records of, newspapers etc? as he says hello to his mother
and goes upstairs
enters bedroom and tiny pool hall and bar and all his
gang in there? it
collapses so much together of JK boyhood recollections
AND BY THE WAY
this is not out
of line or subject:
on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:30:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
In a message
dated 97-07-04 23:29:30 EDT, you write:
<<
"Reichian armor". I
wonder how many on the list know about
Wilhelm. >>
I was just
thinking about this film i saw where an Indonesian man could
control the
electical energy in his body and was able to send electric
charges into
people through needles like acupuncture and heal them.
I wonder to what
extent it is possible to control one's orgone cells
consciously.
----maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:27:01 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
In-Reply-To: <33BDD7E0.364A@together.net>
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>>
>> Orgones
are cells that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
>> drugs? i
read On the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot
>> of
>> mention
of orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything
>> about
>> Reich
besides beat references, but am wondering can orgones be
>>
dependent on
>> say,
artistic creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
>>
completely wrong about what they are?
>>
>> -leo
>> RACE ---
wrote:
>>
>> i'd be
very interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
>>
experience with these orgone notions.
i've seen and heard a bit over
>> years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
>> provide
a very important angle.
>>
>> hope to
hear more tales of the legendary boxes.
>>
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
>
>The cell
explanation makes some sense, but where does the box come in?
>DC
In On the Road,
Bull Lee (Burroughs) sits in one of these boxes which
supposedly
channels orgone energy from the sun or something. Don't remember
all that very
well either. i'd like to know more about the boxes.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:26:50 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: AG, HST, HELL'S ANGELS, PRANKSTERS
In-Reply-To: <l03020906afe3d8b4ef9a@[206.25.67.118]>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>ok i'm just
about down to turn my hog in for fast cars and women re:Cody,
>but before i
do here is a piece of history:
>
>"during
the weeks prceeding the second march on the oakland army terminal,
>AG spent much
of his time trying to persuade Barger and his people notto
>attack the
marchers. on the wednesday before the march ginsberg, kesey,
>cassady, some
of keysey's pranksters and a group of angels met at Barger's
>housein
oakland. A lot of lsd was taken, foolish political discussion was
>resolved by
phonograph voices of joan baez and bob dylan, all concluding
>with the
whole group chanting the text of the Prajnaparamitra Sutre, the
>buddhist
highest, perfect word sermon.
>the outlaws
had never seen anyone quite like Ginsberg: they considered him
>otherwordly.
'that goddamn ginsverg is gonna fuck us *all* up' said terry.
>'for a guy
that aint straight at all, he's about the straightest son of a
>bitch i ever
seen. man, you shoulda been there when he told sonny he loved
>him...sonny
didnt know what the hell to say.'
>the angels
never really understood what ginsberg meantginsverg meant, but
>his unnerving frankness and the fact that
kesey liked him gave them
>second
thoughts about attacking a march that he obviously considered a
>Right thing.
shortly before the november march, ginsberg published this
>speech in the
berkeley barb (please ignore typos, no caps, etc.)
>To The Angels
>these are the
thoughts-anxieties-of anxious marchers
> that the angels will attack them
> for kicks, or to get publicity,
to take th heat off
> themselves
> or to get the goodwill of
police&press/or right
> wing money
>That a
conscious deal has been made with oakland
> police
> or an unconscious rapport, tacit
understanding
> mutual sympathy
> that oakland will laly off persecuting
the angels
> if the angels attack & break up the
march &
> make it a riot
>Is any of
this true, or is it the paranoia of the less
> stable-minded marchers?
>As long as
angels are ambivuous and don't give open
> reassurance that they could be trusted
to be tranquil,
>the anxious
souls, the naturally violent, the insecure, the
>hysterics
among the marchers have an excuse for
>policy of
> self-defense thru violence,
> a rationalization for their own inner
violence
>That leaves
the marchers with choice of defending them-
> selves thru force on a ccount of fear &
threat
> unleashing the more irrational minority
of rebels
>or at best,
defending themselves cool, under control
> BUT CRITICIZED FOR BEING LAWLESS
>or not
defending selves, and possible
abandoned by plice
> (for we have no clear assurance from
oakland police
> that they will sincerely try to
maintain order and guard
> our lawful right to
march)
>if you
attack,&having innocent pacifists, youths
> &old ladies busted up
> AND CRITICIZED AS IRRESPONSIBLE COWARDS
> by you, by press, by public and by
violence loving leftists
> & rightists
>.........
>You dont want
to "change" you want to be yourselves
> & if that includes sadism, or
forced hostility,
> here's a situation where you can get
away with it.
>BUT NOBODY
WANTS TO REJECT THE SOULS OF
> THE HELL'S ANGELS
> or make them change-
> WE JUST DON'T WANT TO
GET BEAT UP
>.......
>what ELSE,
besides this politics, will take the heat
> off the hell's angels?
>that heat's
on everybody, no just you
> to go to war, to be drafted,
> to make money on war jobs and
&economy, to be destroyed
> by Bomb, to get busted
> for pot--
>
>to take the
heat off, you've got
> to take the heat off
> INSIDE YOURSELFVES--
> find peace means stop hating youself
> stop hating people who hate you
> stop reflecting HEAT
> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HEAT
> THE MOST OF PEACE MARCHERS ARE NOT HEAT
>they want you
to join them to relieve
> the heat on you & on all of us
>...............
>how much the
march will be a free expression
> of calm people who have controlled
> their own hatreds
>and are
showing the american people
> how to control their own feat &
hatred
>and once and
for all be done with the pressure
> building up to annhilate the planet
>and take our
part ENDING THE HEAT on earth
>(delivered as
a speech at san jose state college
>monday
november 15, 1965
>before
students and representatives of
>bay areas
hell's angels
>
>on nov.
19--day before the march--the angels called a pres conference to
>announce that
they would not counterdemonstrate "in the interest of public
>safety and
the good name of oakland....because our patriotic concern for
>what these
people are doing to our great nation may provoke us to violent
>acts.. [and
that] any physical encounter would only produce sympathy for
>this mob of
traitors."
>
>mc.
there's a short
poem in Ginsberg Collected Poems '57-80 called party at Ken
Kesey's w/ Hells
Angel's or something like that. i may be remembering the
title wrong. more
of a mood/feeling piece.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:04:52 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: AG, HST, HELL'S ANGELS, PRANKSTERS
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> there's a
short poem in Ginsberg Collected Poems '57-80 called party at=
=20
> Ken
> Kesey's w/
Hells Angel's or something like that. i may be remembering=20
> the
> title wrong.
more of a mood/feeling piece.
>=20
This is the poem
you are thinking of, written by Ginsberg in 1965:
First Party at
Ken Kesey's with Hell's Angels
Cool black night
thru the redwoods
cars parked
outside in shade
behind the gate,
stars dim above
the ravine, a
fire burning by the side
porch and a few
tired souls hunched over
in black leather
jackets. In the huge
wooden house, a
yellow chandelier
at 3 a.m. the
blast of loudspeakers
hi-fi Rolling
Stones Ray Charles Beatles
Jumping Joe
Jackson and twenty youths
dancing to the
vibration thru the floor,
a little weed in
the bathroom, girls in scarlet
tights, one
muscular smooth skinned man
sweating dancing
for hours, beer cans
bent littering
the yard, a hanged man
sculpture
dangling from a high creek branch,
children sleeping
softly in their bedroom bunks.
And 4 police cars
parked outside the painted
gate, red lights
revolving in the leaves.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:23:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Washington, DC Independence day
Comments: To:
babu@electriciti.com
my mind is
drawing blank after blank after blank
like an unstudied
exam where the clocks tick loud, sweating.
"Things stay
the same, here", he said last night;
were my eyes full
of kisses as he talked to me?
A sizzle,
high-pitched hissing, the smell of sulfer.
"I like the smell
of matches" his mouth radiated,
sending the words
to float on the sulfer breeze.
somebody
overheard and agreed softly, breathing.
At night, faces
are flashes of white when lighting cigarrettes.
fireworks sound
like bass drums, resonating in the chest.
The boy with the
black hair looked at me from his seat on the steps,
while A. told me
about ghosts she saw in a hotel in Mexico.
I snuck looks at
him between "Really?"s.
The night was
cool after a hot day.
our half of the
Earth was now in the shade, i guess,
but the air was
different.
It had a palpable
presence against skin,
like the warm
hand of a lover once missed.
The missed hand
of a lover, once warm.
The missed warmth
of a hand once loved.
I remembered the
blues man from Mississippi
sitting on the
re-creation of a porch,
the blonde woman
saying "Sing us a cotton-picking song!"
"Sing us a
cotton-picking blues song!", agreed the others.
Jest sittin' here
thankin',
'bout someone I
useta know.
"This song
is called 'Sitting There Thankin'"
He showed me the
Secret Staircase.
On the way down,
some Puerto Rican kids were smoking a blunt
next to their
motorbikes.
We wished them a
happy one.
On the way up the
staircase, I felt the stars laughing.
Residual
firecrackers that take aeons to burn out.
"Happy 5th
of July", said Mike with a kiss.
I didn't want to,
and I knew I wouldn't, go home last night.
It's a new year
for me. God bless America.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:54:16 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
James:
You asked whether
WSB still has an orgone accumulator.
During my visit
with WSB at his home on February 18, 1995, he guided us
(myself and a
friend who accompanied me) on a tour that included his
backyard. As soon as we walked down to it from his
enclosed back porch, one
of the first
things I noticed was the outhouse-like orgone accumulator, right
near his goldfish
pond. I mentioned it to him and he
acknowledged it with a
smile, nod and
"yesssss" before educating us on feeding tips and digestion
processes for
fish. So, as recently as 2&1\2 years
ago he still kept and
used it. Having lived so long (he was 81 then,
phsically in fairly good
shape and
especially mentally sharp) and in such a legendary manner, he could
be the ultimate
poster child for the beneficial effects of the orgone
accumulator and
the veracity of Reich's theories.
Maya, if you're
reading this: I finally have gone
public!
Happy Holidays,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:16:28 +0000
Reply-To: birdies@ix.netcom.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Birdie <birdies@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: The
Day-Glo Techno Trouser Club
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-04 23:29:30 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
"Reichian armor". I
> wonder how many on the list know about
Wilhelm. >>
>
> I was just
thinking about this film i saw where an Indonesian man could
> control the
electical energy in his body and was able to send electric
> charges into
people through needles like acupuncture and heal them.
>
> I wonder to
what extent it is possible to control one's orgone cells
> consciously.
----maya
Kate Bush wrote a
song ~ Cloudbusting, from her Hounds Of Love CD:
In it, she sings
from a young boy's perspective to a Reichian scientist
father, who has built a Cloudbusting machine to
create rain, and, the
government is
after him for his experiments, and, it deals with paranioa
as well.
The cloudbusting
machine charged the clouds with energy which made them
produce rain.
Donald Sutherland plays the father in the video.
Cloudbusting
I still dream of
Orgonon
I wake up crying
You're making
rain
And you're just
in reach
When you and
sleep escape me
You're like my
yo-yo
That glowed in
the dark
What made it
special
Made it dangerous
So I bury it and
forget
Everytime it
rains
You're here in my
head
Like the sun
coming out
Oooh, I just know
something good is going to happen
And I dont know
when
But just saying
it could make it happen
On top of the
world
Looking over the
edge
You could see
them coming
You looked too
small
In their big
black car
To be a threat to
the men in power
I hid my yo-yo in
the garden
I can't hide you
from the government
Oh god, daddy - I
wont forget
Your son's coming
out
Kate Bush 1985
Cheers,
Birdie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:10:45 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: spelling beat
i apologize for
my abhorrent error in spelling "sulfer" like this in my
previous post and
would like to make an official correction to: SULPHUR
Sorry if I
offended anyone.
------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:40:42 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: spelling beat
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:10 PM
7/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i apologize
for my abhorrent error in spelling "sulfer" like this in my
>previous post
and would like to make an official correction to: SULPHUR
>
>Sorry if I
offended anyone.
>------maya
>
>
I was
appalled. I could not believe anyone
could ever be so insnsitive and
insulting as to
misspell this wonderfull and smelly element.
O thhe
shame. The depths humankind has sunk to.
anyhoow one can
spell sulfur with an f. That is a
perfectly legitimate
spelling as well.
I much prefer it
with the f than the ph.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:54:29 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spelling beat
Comments: To:
"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 06:10 PM
7/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >i
apologize for my abhorrent error in spelling "sulfer" like this in my
> >previous
post and would like to make an official correction to: SULPHUR
> >
> >Sorry if
I offended anyone.
>
>------maya
> >
> >
>
> I was
appalled. I could not believe anyone
could ever be so insnsitive and
> insulting as
to misspell this wonderfull and smelly element.
>
> O thhe
shame. The depths humankind has sunk to.
>
> anyhoow one
can spell sulfur with an f. That is a
perfectly legitimate
> spelling as
well.
>
> I much
prefer it with the f than the ph.
if u jest gut a
spul chicker than this thungs donut
hippen. some
prefur othur
werds wid f's to ph's.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:55:50 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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If I dug around I
might be able to find an orgone box plan I had once.
I need to go back
and look at orgone theory. Most of
Reich's disciples
such as Loewen
and Kelley didn't follow up very much on the farther out
parts of orgone
theory (for the simple reason that they preferred to
stay out of jail)
and worked from his psych. theories in developing
techniques for
dealing with "character armour."
Kelley told me he still
believed in
the orgone theory for the most part and
I think used a
box. Kelley was always something of a sexual
outlaw as well. Loewen and
Bioenergetics
always struck me as pretty square. There
are some
interesting
Reichian therapists still around. There
was a guy in
Berkeley, name
escapes me, who did great things with breathing sessions
that got you high
as a kite, he moved on to using just straight oxygen
hits, and other
inhalants. Flash therapy. That is the nice thing about
Reich, he fits
with an interest in the visionary, estatic experience in
a way that Freud
and Jung don't. Look at the titles to papers at a
Jungian
conference and it will give you the bends.
I don't know
where I got the idea but I had firmly in my head the
Burroughs used an
orgone box, at least during the Texas pot farm phase
that Kerouac
mentions.
J Stauffer
RACE --- wrote:
>
> i'd be very
interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
> experience
with these orgone notions. i've seen and
heard a bit over
> years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
> provide a
very important angle.
>
> hope to hear
more tales of the legendary boxes.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:54:29 +0200
Reply-To: Jean.ORY@hol.fr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>
Organization: ORY
Jean
Subject: Wilhelm Reich
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Orgone is known
in Eastern tradition since thousands years
It is called in
Hinduist tradition: Prana - (Panayama)
In Chinese
tradition: Chi (Tai CHI Chuan - Acupuncture)
In Japanese
tradition: Ki (Ai KI Do)
Recommended
lecture:
Yoga - by T.K.V. Desikachar - University Press of
America
Clear Light of
Bliss - by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - Snow Lion Publication -
Reich was put in
jail.
Best way to learn
about him is to read his books.
The more famous
is "Function of the orgasm"
True that Wilhelm
Reich had a great influence on the hipster culture,
but don't forget
about C.G. Jung whose forewords were in the I Ching, in
the Secret of the
Golden Flower, in the Tibetan Book of the Great
Liberation, in
the Tibetan of the Dead, in Tibetan yoga and Secret
Doctrines, I am
not sure but I think that Jung wrote forewords for some
Zen books too.
Jung, Richard
Wilhelm (the translator of the I King), Hermann Hesse
(Siddharta) were
good friends, I see them as one of the many grand
fathers and the
uncles of the beats.
Just an idea
about an old subject on the list: alcohol and Jack Kerouac.
May be there was
too, somewhere in his unconscious the traditional
"poete
maudit" (Damned Poet) programing.
Enlightened, visionary but
destroyed by the
intensity of his own vision and by the misunderstanding
of his
politically correct contemporaries.
Little bit like
Antonin Artaud who didn't have such friends as Ginsberg
and Bill
Burroughs to understand him and to stretch out a friendly hand
to him.
May be there are
two ways to induce the poetic mood:
The first is by
the "dereglement de tous les sens": creating
artificially by
drugs, bad food, lack of sleep, strong emotions, a
disordered state
of the senses almost near the death experience to
produce the
vision experience of the absolute, like Gerard de Nerval,
Rimbaud, Artaud,
Rene Daumal did.
The second by the
harmonious adjusting of the senses through
meditation. Like the great Zen or Taoist poets or like
Allen Ginsberg
who had practiced
meditative retreats under the guidance of Chogyam
Trungpa and wrote
poems from the peaceful state of mind produced.
The reason why
Wihelm Reich was persecuted was because his studies on
sexuality and
because his commentaries on the political use of the
repression of the
sexual impulse.
There is a
difference beween repression and control.
It is still true:
People don't even notice on TV someone killing
somebody else,
but people would freak out if they were seeing on TV two
consenting adults
making love.
That's one of
many symptoms of the mental sickness of most of the main
cultures of the
world.
At that point,
visions and poets are indispensable to survive.
Jean
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:37 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
Mime-Version: 1.0
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i'm sending this
message out again for some response. response to a post
that will strike
up a literary conversation. and not merely a flood of
posts from the
youngsters who just talk about how much they wished they had
read the works.
with exception of DC Dave and James S, i feel like i'm all
alone here
writing to an empty home room in high school. and dont take this
as a flame,
because flaming will only keep us further away from the beat
lit we are
reading/etc. i know of several people leaving list for lack of
literay
conversation, and would like to turn the tide.
SO PLEASE LET'S GET
OUT OF THE CHAT
ROOM AND BACK IN THE CLASSROOM OF THE MIND, please.
enthusiasm is one
thing but a ton of posts back and forth about spelling or
'oh i wish i read
that' and the like are better off back-channeled directly
among yourselves,
guys. i've been on the list for a year or two enjoying
immensely the
debates, discussions and all, and a friendly chat or two
included in a
more substantial post.
bill gargan: if
you are reading this could you please repost the FAQ? or
could some one
else?
we are falling by
the way side and hungry for some discourse.
i am not scolding
but i am getting somewhat exasperated.
REPOST ON
LITERARY TOPICS - PLEASE JOIN IN!!!
ok down off the
hogs for a while. in codyville (the imaginary place that
denver becomes in
jack's mind -- hey for that matter, does anyone who has
heard the ryko
tribute CD kicks, etc - enjoyed mike stipe's piece with the
sad little tinny
music to accompany 'our gang' and the connection to jack's
brown room in
pawtucketville when he played all his elaborate games and
kept meticulous
records of, newspapers etc? as he says hello to his mother
and goes upstairs
enters bedroom and tiny pool hall and bar and all his
gang in there? it
collapses so much together of JK boyhood recollections
AND BY THE WAY
this is not out
of line or subject:
on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:40 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: parallels between dr sax and voc
Mime-Version: 1.0
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on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:44 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: CODY AND THE GOOD DR SAX
Mime-Version: 1.0
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on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
and would like to add that as he is having his visions of
cody, he is also
moving back to lowell from west haven, ct., wandering the
streets of NY
city, and evoking parallels of his childhood by description
of building in
denver reminiscent of dr sax country(aka lowell)
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
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any one out there
listening to the JK tribute CD?
i have and would
love to talk with anyone here on nays and yays and
everything in
between.
personally, i am
really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row wine"--great
performance piece
and the kind of readings i aspire to.
favorite of the
day(s), however is the mike stipe reading of "my gang" it
is so DR SAX like
especially the parallels to the tiny poolhall in his
bedroom where he
played with great imagination solitary as a child. the
races and
baseball games with meticulously kept records and his newspaper
that carried the
sports news.
again, i'd really
like to hear of someone's impressions of those who have
been listening.
for those who haven't - and may like to join in on an
actual
discussion, it is put out by rykodisc, title: JK: kicks joy darkness
i know i'm crabby
but i want someone to play with.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:52 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: "where have all the scholars gone
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long time
passing," where have all the scholars gone?
i know its
summer, BUT
there is a
remarkable change over on the list, from young folks chatting up
a storm and maybe
a few posts to sink teeth into (or pomes or folks or
whatever)
hopefully the
scholars have gone to take a break with summer and 4th july
and all
that. and if lurking, come out and play
with me.
feeling
cantankerous
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:11:33 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy
darkness--random thoughts in reply
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> any one out
there listening to the JK tribute CD?
> i have and
would love to talk with anyone here on nays and yays and
> everything
in between.
> personally,
i am really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row wine"--great
> performance
piece and the kind of readings i aspire to.
> favorite of
the day(s), however is the mike stipe reading of "my gang" it
> is so DR SAX
like especially the parallels to the tiny poolhall in his
> bedroom
where he played with great imagination solitary as a child. the
> races and
baseball games with meticulously kept records and his newspaper
> that carried
the sports news.
> again, i'd
really like to hear of someone's impressions of those who have
> been
listening. for those who haven't - and may like to join in on an
> actual
discussion, it is put out by rykodisc, title: JK: kicks joy darkness
> i know i'm
crabby but i want someone to play with.
> mc
Marie:
Put on Bob Dylan,
Absolutely Sweet Marie. I believe it is on Blonde on
Blonde. He will play with you. And watch out for the little old
crones with
twisted pliers sent down from society to gouge out your
eyes. Personally I walk upside down and kick off
hand cuffs, but that
can be ruff.
I began visions
of cody against my will. I have an worn
worn copy and
did not want to
go back there. The beginning is Jack's
memory of every
little
observation he recorded in his mind. He
is taking us back to old
Denver. It jumps back to New York. It is complete, but not necessarily
"good"
writing. Why, he is more interested in
the exercise than the
art. But, it is laying a foundation. Easy to see why critics didn't
like Jack. Easy to see.
Me, I want to
discuss Pic. Why, because it is the only
published work I
was able to find
that I never read. So, let me know if
you wanta go.
Stealing rock n
roll lines as fast as I can remember them.
But, it's
allright now, ma,
Im only typing. But, I should go slow,
because love
can last longer
than shame, or can it. Maybe shame does
last longer
than love. Have you ever had an original thought. Doesn't it take more
than one person
to have a thought?
I ain't no
scholar, never hope to be one, but, if I saw one, I would
just let it
be. I have no words of wisdom. I have no thougths of
depth. I have no real drugs. I have no false drugs. I have no
identity that is
not false.
What sides are
there? We are in space and it has no
sides. Jack Handy
has deep
thoughts. Do you? I remember once my brother stole $5.00 out
of my bank. My father refused to believe that I had saved
$5.00.
Today, I won't
save money. Today, my brother is in
jail, for stealing
drugs out of a
pharmacy. Today, my father says he has
nothing to do
with either
one. I don't believe him. I think he is lying. It doesn't
matter what you
think, because it won't change what I think.
I didn't
say, you don't
matter, I said what you think about my father, me and my
brother doesn't
matter, because it can't change any of this.
If I could
go back in time,
I couldn't change it either. How do you
flush anger,
hurt etc out of
your system. How do you flush shame out
of your system.
Where is the
emotional toilet bowl of the universe.
Can you help me
find my way
there?
I can not
think. I can not write about
thinking. I can feel, but I
don't know what I
am feeling. I wonder what everyone else
is doing.
Everybody's gone
away, heading to LA. Me, I sat through a
rainy night
in GA before,
have you. Maybe I wasn't in a box car,
but I did have my
guitar.
So, someone else
left LA and took the Midnight train.
Someone else left
his home in GA
and went to San Francisco. Someone else
rode the rails
and highways
everywhere and wrote books about it.
Someone else hit 61
homeruns and
everyone hated him for doing it. But,
what kinda guy was
Babe Ruth. Was he kind to his wife? Was he considerate. Was he a
glutton? What made people love him so? What made Roger Maris a bad
guy? What would the press say about Babe Ruth
now. Would he wear Nike
shoes? How can one escape TV? Why can't we build it and they will
come? Why can't we ease his pain? Why can't he ease my pain?
Did you ever wish
someone you loved would die, just so they would be put
out of their
depression and you wouldn't have to hear about it anymore?
Folk rock, what
is that?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:25:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
> AND BY THE
WAY
> this is not
out of line or subject:
> on page 6 of
VOC JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
> with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
> space and
time, which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
> p6
>
"building is ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
> see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
> ornaments
and blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
> enormous
house of dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
> down black
stairs like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
> underneath
just a few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
> wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
>
sleeping."
Just read that
last night was was struck by the thread of Dr. Sax as I
had not read Dr.
Sax last time I read Cody. The haint his
haunting
all. Marie, where is your Dr. Sax? Is he climbing over the email you
receive. At night when you go to sleep, does he shrink
down to the size
of a toy and
dance on your keyboard. When you wake
up, does he climb
over the moinitor
and hide close to the picture tube? My
Dr Sax climbed
out of my heart
this morning. He showed me spot in my heart where I am
holding on to
sadness that is killing me every day. I
let go of it and
am falling
without a net. I don't care what gets
posted to the beat-l,
but you should
read Jean Ory's post. It wasn't high
school.
Can you go back
to high school? Growth is a hard
thing. Sometimes the
list is not what
we want. A month ago, James said is was
doing fine.
Today you say
not. What about your mood. What about your doom. What
about your room.
Hum, well, I guess somethings go on within or without
us. As for me, I am going to puke this sadness
out of my body. I am
going to retake
my self from the ghosts of Dr. Sax. I have measured out
my life in emails
from the beat list. Humm, I wonder what
Eliot thinks
about that? Maybe he doesn't care.
Take it away, Dr.
Sax. Play on Train. Wail on Roland Kirk. Play on
Jazz man. Anybody but Kenny G!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:39:31 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> ok down off
the hogs for a while. in codyville (the imaginary place
>that
> denver
becomes in jack's mind -- hey for that matter, does anyone who
>has
> heard the
ryko tribute CD kicks, etc - enjoyed mike stipe's piece with
>the
> sad little
tinny music to accompany 'our gang' and the connection to
>jack's
> brown room
in pawtucketville when he played all his elaborate games and
> kept
meticulous records of, newspapers etc? as he says hello to his
>mother
> and goes
upstairs enters bedroom and tiny pool hall and bar and all his
> gang in
there? it collapses so much together of JK boyhood
>recollections
> AND BY THE
WAY
> this is not
out of line or subject:
> on page 6 of
VOC JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i
>agree
> with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out
>of
> space and
time, which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
> p6
>
"building is ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i
>can
> see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
> ornaments
and blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
> enormous
house of dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and
>going
> down black
stairs like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of
>Time
> underneath
just a few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
> wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant
>is
>
sleeping."
Sorry I can't
respond to the CD post, don't have any CDs or player for
them, but would
like to hear what others have to say. As
far as being in
Codyville goes, I
thought this thing really took off as you begin part 2,
starting with
Cody meeting Tom Watson in the pool hall.
I'm ready for
any recollections
anyone has of reading Neal's stuff to see how this
relates. Going from being homeless and living by
railroad tracks, to
having a dream
one night that if he read books, knew enough, he could
escape the lot of
his father. Walking up to the pool
player and saying
"Do you want
to learn philosophy with me?" All
of a sudden having a suit
and a mentor and
starting to fit in with the gang. Great
descriptions of
breasts scene, and voyeurs and throwing the football in
the middle of the
street, with teacher/poet watching, like life going on
all around
teachers trapped inside of themselves.
Lots of visions
joined with other visions, Lowell, NY, Denver, and San
Francisco all
positioned together in his memory banks.
Everything is
very romanticized
and gushy, like JK writes, a lot of it though tempered
with reality
about America, life and death, like finding the miscarriage
in grocery
wrappers. One big thing is K, packing to
go seek Cody, like
his will to live
is somehow critically intertwined with Cody's sense of
life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:38:27 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: On the Road
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Did anyone notice
that Charles Kuralt, of ON THE ROAD fame died.
So did
Robert Mitchum
and Jimmy Stewart. I loved all three for
what they
brought. Charles tried to bring us the finer and small
moments of life
we missed. Robert told them all to stick it, if they
didn't like it.
James brought the
ordinary to life as a hero. What a week
to lose three
icons of our
society. Maybe noone else cares. But I do.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:52:10 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody/Ginsberg
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Hey--has anyone
who bought the new paperback version of Cody noticed that
in the back is
The Visions of the Great Rememberer by Allen Ginsberg,
page by page
comments on his take of VOC? Some of
these are very
interesting. Will have more to say about a couple of these
later.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:50:45 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
Dear Marie:
In response to
your plea for Serious Discussions of Literary Topics, I offer
this initial
contribution to the budding VOC cyberseminar:
I finished VOC
fairly recently, I read it over a long period with several
very long
interruptions. I don't recommend this,
if ever a book demands
concentration and
consistency, VOC does. The longer I read
it at a sitting,
the more I was
able to flow with its groove, an authentic-feeling
transcription of
JK's multilayered mental processes- memory, reflection,
commentary, pure
observation and automatic poetry. VOC
really captures, more
than any other
Kerouac book I have read so far, the feel from the inside of
the nascent Beat
Generation before it became a legend/trademark, magnified
and insidiously
stereotyped by the establishment, subversion subverted. This
is the real thing
for those who want to get past all that and see, feel and
hear Jack, Neal
& co. and their world, outside the status quo and fully
inside the
jugular vein of firsthand experience.
The verbatim
transcription of an actual taped conversation, while I found it
hard to follow
and stay with, is the heart both chronologically and
thematically of
the book. The reader can just as well
write around it as the
author (I'm
thinking of some of the VOC posts dealing with the different
perspectives -
JK's romanticised Neal, Neal's hard-experienced realism, the
reader's
impression and contributions). I'm being
called on to join the
family for a
last-hurrah holiday weekend swim. Let me
conclude for now with
a favorite among
many quotes that I think captures the feeling JK is always
trying to
describe and hold onto simultaneously here and in his other works,
the
"IT" of ON THE ROAD and the one long story of his life and work. It's
lengthy, but
can't be paraphrased or shortened without losing its momentum,
so here I go,
from pgs. 15-16 of my hardcover first edition, which I believe
collates with the
latest printing:
"No possible
way of avoiding enigmas. Like people in
cafeterias smile when
they're arriving
and sitting down at the table but when they're leaving, when
in unison their
chairs scrape back they pick up their coats and things with
glum faces (all
of them the same degree of semi-glumness which is a special
glumness that is
disappointed that the promise of the first-arriving smiling
moment didn't
come out or if it did it died after a short life)- and during
that short life
which has the same blind unconscious
quality as the orgasm,
everything is
happening to all their souls- this is the GO- the summation
pinnacle possible
in human relationships- lasts a second- the vibratory
message is on-
yet it's not so mystic either, it's love and sympathy in a
flash. Similarly we who make the mad night all the
way (four-way sex orgies,
three-day
conversations, uninterrupted transcontinental drives) have that
momentary
glumness that advertises the need for sleep- reminds us it is
possible to stop
all this- more so reminds us that the moment is ungraspable,
is already gone
and if we sleep we can call it up again mixing it with
unlimited other
beautiful combinations- shuffle the old file cards of the
soul in demented
hallucinated sleep- So the people in the cafeteria have that
look but only
until their hats and things are picked up, because the glumness
is also a signal
they send one another, a kind of a Goodnight Ladies" of
perhaps interior
heart politeness. What kind of friend
would grin openly in
the faces of his
friends when it's the time for glum coatpicking and bending
to leave? So it's a sign of "Now we're leaving
this table which had promised
so much- this is
our obsequy to the sad." The
glumness goes as soon as
someone says
something and they head for the door- laughing they fling back
echoes to the
scene of their human disaster- they go off down the street in
the new air
provided by the world.
Ah the mad hearts
of all of us."
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:07:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: CODY PART ONE
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i've just finished part one of VOC and have a
lot of shared passages
quoted before me
by mr stauffer and DC: but these are some of the things
that struck me as
i reread the opening of the novel: (mcgraw hill version)
my take on voc/dr
sax in already spoken for in previous posts, am moving
on.
here are a few
themes and passages which also struck my fancy:
p 8 in addition to the proustian thread
intro'd by DC there is also
hint of love of
thomas woolf and his own first novel in style (first novel
town and city) in
"the time and the river"
p12 one of first many many return trips to
lowell, "the truck rolled
on, bearing me
sadly back to the scenes of my boyhood" brings to mind all
the return trips
to memere ("aunt") in OTR)
12 as well as hints of mortality: "All
you do is head straight for the
grave, a face just
covers the skull for a while. stretch that skull-cover
and smile"
12 as well as ushering in ever present tone,
mood, subject, liet
motive of
sadness, loss, regret that permeates each of JK's books:
12 "ah me so sad that every year we
have to lose our october!"
24 "a sad park of autumn, late saturday
afternoon--leaves by now so
dry they make a
general rattle all over ...--a trash wirebasket is half
full of dry, dry
leaves--a pool of last night's rain lies in the gravell;
toninght it will
be cold, clear, winter coming and who will haunt the
deserted park
then?" (quoted in paragrah full of lively children and
mothers)
39 "i dont feel strong, the sorrows of
time and personality
41 (in letter to cody) "I am conscous
of my own personal tragedy....
"aware also of
the tragedy the loneliness of my
mother...
" I feel like
i've done wrong, to myself the most
wrong. i'm
throwing
away something
that i can't even find in the
incredible clutter of
my being but it's
going out with the refuse en masse, burieed in the middle
of it, every now
and then i get a glimpse. i get so sick thinking of the
years i wasted...why
did i waste my beatuiful mexcity on paranoias"
28: the catholic
church and its churches(note color schemes)
"now the window darkens to match
the great transformations without,
refracting them
inward to these kneelers, who can't stand ordinary glare of
life in musty
meditations and guilty anxieties-people com to curch for
guilt now--"
"the altar of st joseph at my
right is a symphony in browns"(most
of Dr Sax
has symphonies in brown both inside and out.)
29: i"i hear the chorus of prayers in a
rickety mumble repeating the
moans of an
accredited adjurer....--it can't be them make this ghostly
prayer--it's a
novena in the innards of the church itself, it is locked in
the stone and
realeased each night at this timeby the wizardly prayers of
some old
hooknosed ribbon clerk who acts like a divining rod withal to draw
the innate sound
out of the churchy-twosted chicago stone".
29 "(i had just noticed that the marble
squares in the floor are also
separated by metal
rims like in the MERIT food shop last night"-(care to
explicate that
one, DC?)
many years ago in a church just like
this but smaller, holier, more
venerated by
hearts, i came with hundreds of little *death-conscious* boys
of St Josephs
Parochical school(churxh always fill us with the knowledge of
the gloom and
horror of funerals even if we had learned to reconcile
ourselves to the
shame and sadness of confession, confirmation, execises,
et al"
(**mine)
33: leit motives of shrouds and shitting .. p
33 only one of several
passages..take it
for what it's worth. (or expound on excrement and death
y'all)
26: proust and memory (memory babe hisself):
"the, as Proust says god
bless him, 'inexpressibly delicious' sensation of of
this memory--for as
memories are
older theypre like wine rarer, till if you ind a real old
memory, one of
infancy, not an established often tasted one, but a brand
new one! it would
taste better than the napoleon brandy stendhal himself
must have stared
at...while shaving in front of those napoleonic cannons"
26: greon for green neon
35: dreams of cody: as opposed to
visions of cody and neal in other
novels, and
interesting in that cody comes off well in dreams but hint of
some jealousy or
impatience with neal in real life?
"oh that cody dream, last night he
was all attentive as he never
really or only
rarely is"
"cody, for first time, followed me
and let me do things"
"there sat cody and I -- i was
looking at table cloth-thinking 'i'm
tired, we do too
much, i must run away from cody to ever rest but now he's
folowing me i'll
never can do it"
"this was a dream last night. and
cody let others do the talking,
for once he was a
smiling and bemused listener"
27: peak experience "that so seldom
experience of seeing my whole
life's richness
swimming in a palpable mothlike cloud, a cloud i can really
see and which i
think is elfin due to my celtic
blood-coming only in
moments of
*complete inspiration*... in my life number them probably below
five--at least on
this level"(THE ELFS ARE AT IT AGAIN YOU GUYS!!!)
i also found
interesting the unconscious foreshadowing of the beats and
their next
generation of readers in the passages dealing with genet
also, struck by
prejudices in the opening book, which took stereotyped pot
shots at
"jews negros fags "
________
awful lot of
dulouz themes embedded in this short piece of writing, and
many differing
thoughts/feelings re: cassady/cody
any and all
comments welcome before moving to part 2
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:10:54 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Cody
well finally got
Cody yesterday, beginning seems to me to be
Jack's version
of Leopold
Bloom's walk to the church for Paddy Dignam's funeral.... mind
open, seeing
everything, memories evoked by this person, event, place....
i love the
atmosphere JK creates here, much more personal and misty than
Joyce's... definitely gives the feel of a person whose
conciousness has a
constant shadow
and a longing that won't leave him in peace.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:25:53 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilhelm Reich
Jean,
couldn't agree
with you more... am reading Jung's Aion now and definitely have
the sense the JK
read him and incorporated some of his thoughts....
don't know that i
would call the writers/artists who use/used alcohol/drugs
and wrote,
artificial... we're all a little
tortured and for some, repression
of the
ego/emotions/mind are/were so great that the only way to let the self
(in Jung's
definition) override the ego and express itself is/was to take the
ego off guard
chemically... whether it be alcohol, lots of wild sex, lack of
food, drugs, lack
of sleep. and certainly when JK was
writing, the american
social atmosphere
was particularly oppressive/repressive, not too mention the
things in JK's
own life that created his personal terrors.
i don't advocate
becoming an
alcholic in order to write, but who's to say that that writing is
any less real
than someone who is a near-Boddhisatva?
just a different
state... all is
One, One is all.
paix,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Jean ORY
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 5:54 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Wilhelm Reich
Orgone is known
in Eastern tradition since thousands years
It is called in
Hinduist tradition: Prana - (Panayama)
In Chinese
tradition: Chi (Tai CHI Chuan - Acupuncture)
In Japanese
tradition: Ki (Ai KI Do)
Recommended
lecture:
Yoga - by T.K.V. Desikachar - University Press of
America
Clear Light of
Bliss - by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - Snow Lion Publication -
Reich was put in
jail.
Best way to learn
about him is to read his books.
The more famous
is "Function of the orgasm"
True that Wilhelm
Reich had a great influence on the hipster culture,
but don't forget
about C.G. Jung whose forewords were in the I Ching, in
the Secret of the
Golden Flower, in the Tibetan Book of the Great
Liberation, in
the Tibetan of the Dead, in Tibetan yoga and Secret
Doctrines, I am not
sure but I think that Jung wrote forewords for some
Zen books too.
Jung, Richard
Wilhelm (the translator of the I King), Hermann Hesse
(Siddharta) were
good friends, I see them as one of the many grand
fathers and the
uncles of the beats.
Just an idea
about an old subject on the list: alcohol and Jack Kerouac.
May be there was
too, somewhere in his unconscious the traditional
"poete
maudit" (Damned Poet) programing.
Enlightened, visionary but
destroyed by the
intensity of his own vision and by the misunderstanding
of his
politically correct contemporaries.
Little bit like
Antonin Artaud who didn't have such friends as Ginsberg
and Bill
Burroughs to understand him and to stretch out a friendly hand
to him.
May be there are
two ways to induce the poetic mood:
The first is by
the "dereglement de tous les sens": creating
artificially by
drugs, bad food, lack of sleep, strong emotions, a
disordered state
of the senses almost near the death experience to
produce the
vision experience of the absolute, like Gerard de Nerval,
Rimbaud, Artaud,
Rene Daumal did.
The second by the
harmonious adjusting of the senses through
meditation. Like the great Zen or Taoist poets or like
Allen Ginsberg
who had practiced
meditative retreats under the guidance of Chogyam
Trungpa and wrote
poems from the peaceful state of mind produced.
The reason why
Wihelm Reich was persecuted was because his studies on
sexuality and
because his commentaries on the political use of the
repression of the
sexual impulse.
There is a
difference beween repression and control.
It is still true:
People don't even notice on TV someone killing
somebody else,
but people would freak out if they were seeing on TV two
consenting adults
making love.
That's one of many
symptoms of the mental sickness of most of the main
cultures of the
world.
At that point,
visions and poets are indispensable to survive.
Jean
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: i come in peace (codyville)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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to all who took
my ranting too personally, i'm really not a junkyard dawg.
just wanted to
get folks to readin and talking and debating.
cheers to mr.
kirby who has begun to read VOC albeit reluctantly. it's
always more fun
if more play.
(hey DC: we can
listen to the CD when we get to gether next.)
i'm just now
heading into part 2, may take awhile as i still have my HST
readings as well;
i'll save yr post and get to it after reading part 2
in the meantime,
i really loved what you had to say down below
One big thing is
K, packing to go seek Cody, like
his will to live
is somehow critically intertwined with Cody's sense of
life.
_____
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:13 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Road
In-Reply-To: <33BFBBF3.D7655CBC@scsn.net>
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no, i've been out
of touch with the media. but yes, i do care. i know i am
at an age where
most of my heros of humanity music innerspace and
literature are
dying. thanks, mr kirby
mc
>Did anyone
notice that Charles Kuralt, of ON THE ROAD fame died. So did
>Robert
Mitchum and Jimmy Stewart. I loved all
three for what they
>brought. Charles tried to bring us the finer and small
moments of life
>we
missed. Robert told them all to stick
it, if they didn't like it.
>James brought
the ordinary to life as a hero. What a
week to lose three
>icons of our
society. Maybe noone else cares. But I do.
>
>Peace,
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
In-Reply-To:
<970706115044_-1527787300@emout08.mail.aol.com>
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pleased to make
yer acquaintance, arthur nusbaum:
this is just
wonderful writing and yes, i did start ranting a bit didn't i?
its pretty out of
character for me but i find the occasional ranting good
for my soul, AND
maybe i wouldnt have gotten such a piece of careful
reading and
explicating such as yours. thanks so much. hope your
celebration is
all you want it to be.
mc
>Dear Marie:
>
>In response
to your plea for Serious Discussions of Literary Topics, I offer
>this initial
contribution to the budding VOC cyberseminar:
>
>I finished
VOC fairly recently, I read it over a long period with several
>very long
interruptions. I don't recommend this,
if ever a book demands
>concentration
and consistency, VOC does. The longer I
read it at a sitting,
>the more I
was able to flow with its groove, an authentic-feeling
>transcription
of JK's multilayered mental processes- memory, reflection,
>commentary,
pure observation and automatic poetry.
VOC really captures, more
>than any
other Kerouac book I have read so far, the feel from the inside of
>the nascent
Beat Generation before it became a legend/trademark, magnified
>and
insidiously stereotyped by the establishment, subversion subverted. This
>is the real
thing for those who want to get past all that and see, feel and
>hear Jack,
Neal & co. and their world, outside the status quo and fully
>inside the
jugular vein of firsthand experience.
>
>The verbatim
transcription of an actual taped conversation, while I found it
>hard to
follow and stay with, is the heart both chronologically and
>thematically
of the book. The reader can just as well
write around it as the
>author (I'm
thinking of some of the VOC posts dealing with the different
>perspectives
- JK's romanticised Neal, Neal's hard-experienced realism, the
>reader's
impression and contributions). I'm being
called on to join the
>family for a
last-hurrah holiday weekend swim. Let me
conclude for now with
>a favorite
among many quotes that I think captures the feeling JK is always
>trying to
describe and hold onto simultaneously here and in his other works,
>the
"IT" of ON THE ROAD and the one long story of his life and work. It's
>lengthy, but
can't be paraphrased or shortened without losing its momentum,
>so here I go,
from pgs. 15-16 of my hardcover first edition, which I believe
>collates with
the latest printing:
>
>"No
possible way of avoiding enigmas. Like
people in cafeterias smile when
>they're
arriving and sitting down at the table but when they're leaving, when
>in unison
their chairs scrape back they pick up their coats and things with
>glum faces
(all of them the same degree of semi-glumness which is a special
>glumness that
is disappointed that the promise of the first-arriving smiling
>moment didn't
come out or if it did it died after a short life)- and during
>that short
life which has the same blind
unconscious quality as the orgasm,
>everything is
happening to all their souls- this is the GO- the summation
>pinnacle possible
in human relationships- lasts a second- the vibratory
>message is
on- yet it's not so mystic either, it's love and sympathy in a
>flash. Similarly we who make the mad night all the
way (four-way sex orgies,
>three-day
conversations, uninterrupted transcontinental drives) have that
>momentary
glumness that advertises the need for sleep- reminds us it is
>possible to
stop all this- more so reminds us that the moment is ungraspable,
>is already
gone and if we sleep we can call it up again mixing it with
>unlimited
other beautiful combinations- shuffle the old file cards of the
>soul in
demented hallucinated sleep- So the people in the cafeteria have that
>look but only
until their hats and things are picked up, because the glumness
>is also a signal
they send one another, a kind of a Goodnight Ladies" of
>perhaps
interior heart politeness. What kind of
friend would grin openly in
>the faces of
his friends when it's the time for glum coatpicking and bending
>to
leave? So it's a sign of "Now we're
leaving this table which had promised
>so much- this
is our obsequy to the sad." The
glumness goes as soon as
>someone says
something and they head for the door- laughing they fling back
>echoes to the
scene of their human disaster- they go off down the street in
>the new air
provided by the world.
>Ah the mad
hearts of all of us."
>
>Arthur S.
Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:52:50 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody/Ginsberg
DC,
Yes i did and am
very anxious to read it, but thought i'd wait til i'd
finished Cody...
let me know if you think it should be read parallel. i have
pulled out
Ulysses for comparisons, although it's damned hard to find stuff
quickly with the
book being so long...
paix,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 1997 11:52 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Cody/Ginsberg
Hey--has anyone
who bought the new paperback version of Cody noticed that
in the back is
The Visions of the Great Rememberer by Allen Ginsberg,
page by page
comments on his take of VOC? Some of
these are very
interesting. Will have more to say about a couple of these
later.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:22:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Cody
btw, maybe this
is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
neal as a sort of
mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:56:13 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: shopping carts & destruction...
just saw the new
U2 video for "Last Day on Earth" with WSB pushing his
shopping cart
around....I wonder how many folks know who he is; the very
end of the video
freezes on his face. Anyone's
impressions? Esp. you
Burroughs lovers
out there....
Diane. (H)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:50:00 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody/Ginsberg
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>Sherri wrote:
>
> Yes i did
and am very anxious to read it, but thought i'd wait til i'd
> finished
Cody... let me know if you think it should be read parallel.
>i have
> pulled out
Ulysses for comparisons, although it's damned hard to find
>stuff
> quickly with
the book being so long...
>
If you want my
advice, it is yes, read Ginsberg's observations as you
Read VOC, so you
can think about it as you go along, rather than as an
addendum.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:30:33 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Bentz:
Compare this
chronology:
"I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons"
-T.S. Eliot,
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"I have seen
life measured out in eyedroppers of morphine solution- I have
experienced the
agonizing deprivation of junk sickness, and the pleasure of
relief when
junk-thirsty cells drank from the needle."
-William S.
Burroughs, "Junky", author's introduction
"I have
measured out my life in emails from the beat list."
-R. Bentz Kirby,
"97-07-06 11:37:45 EDT"
I really
appreciate your jazz commentary at the end of your message. As a
devotee of the
Giants of the golden age ('40's-'60's) of bebop and beyond, I
can't believe the
utter pap that passes for "jazz" by the cowed, cretinized
popular culture
of today- the immaculately coiffed, substantially vacuous
Kenny G
culture. Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Monk,
Mingus, Dolphy, Ayler,
McLean,
Armstrong, Ellington (the latter 2 preceding the others but forming
the foundation
for them) are among those in my pantheon.
Coltrane, Davis,
Parker and Monk
(like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke on the Beatific
Mt. Rushmore) are
at the very top for me. I have a very
extensive
collection,
beginning with LPs and mostly in the subsequent CD strata, of
these Masters and
others. Of the 4, I had the privelege of
seeing only Davis
during his last
'80's incarnation. I missed the boat on
the others, born and
enlightened too
late. But about 5 years ago, I did have
a Coltrane
experience- I saw
a band that featured his son Ravi ( as well as Elvin Jones,
the great drummer
of the legendary JC quartet), whom I briefly met after the
set. He closely resembled his father, it was a
rather spooky experience and
I felt somewhat
sorry for him having to pursue his path in the shadow of such
an immortal
Giant. He was good as I recall and
probably has gotten better (I
think he was only
in his mid-20's when I met him), but how can he ever get
out from under
that shadow? I admire him for doing what
he must do
regardless of the
circumstances. What is your favorite
Coltrane item or
album? I would hate to have to answer that question,
so I shouldn't be
asking it, should
I?
I was aware of,
and saddened by, the deaths of Robert Mitchum, James Stewart
and Charles
Kurault, in such quick succession. Have
you seen RM in NIGHT OF
THE HUNTER? It's one of the great stylish villian roles,
right up there with
Richard Widmark's
Tommy Yudo in KISS OF DEATH and Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth
in BLUE
VELVET. And I recently saw the newly
restored version of VERTIGO on
the big screen at
a grand old theatre here in Ann Arbor, a breathtaking
experience with
an unforgettable, subtly complex and disturbing performance
by JS. Speaking of the cowed, cretinized popular
culture referred to above,
you failed to
mention the death, by his own hand, of Brian Keith, separated
at birth from
Robin Williams and my accountant, who looks like both of them
combined, and
with some Ted Kennedy thrown in for outline.
As Vietnam and
the upheavals of
the '60's raged, Uncle Bill blew off Buffy, Jody and Sissy
with his gruff,
lethargic "go ask Mr. French" for 7 straight seasons. It
took that many
years for Kerouac to get ON THE ROAD published!
This is
shameful, what
did BK ever do to me? He was probably a
very nice guy
following his
path and making a living, and I never would have wished such a
terrifying and
despairing end for him.
Well, I have
written again as you suggested after not hearing from you after
our brief
exchange a little while back ( you toggled me to get on my New
Urbanist soapbox
as I recall). This is a great and
increasingly obsessive
list to be on,
I'm getting to know the themes and MO's of the regulars,
separating the
Beat Wheat from the Chatter Chaff. Until
very recently, my
own
correspondence was one-on-one, such as my dispatches to you. But I've
finally gone
public and joined in on the VOC forum in direct response to
Marie Countryman
and to the List at large.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:33:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> 29 "(i had just noticed that the marble
squares in the floor are
>also
separated by metal rims like in the MERIT food shop last
>night"-(care
to
> explicate
that one, DC?)
You know, that jumped
out at me too when I read it, same floor as MERIT
FOOD SHOP, pg.
26, "The floor is all shades of brown and yellow 'pebbled'
marble with
little thin metal lines separating the various sections;"
Shall we strip it
to the surface level and surmise that the same workmen
were making
similar floors everywhere, St. Patrick's Cathedral and MERIT
FOOD SHOP, a
conspiracy of NY construction workers, or do we make a giant
leap beyond
construction to the pebbled marble of the mind, and thoughts,
memories, built,
pebbled on top of one another separated,or grouped
together, by thin
metal lines of reality, metal rims, that cut through
the consciousness
of all of us, like steel metal artifacts piercing into
the past?
>take it for
what it's worth. (or expound on excrement and death
> y'all)
I still like the
shit thing on pg. 26
"...we are
nothing but shits and we'll all die and eat shit in graves..."
but hey, I'm not
above taking it back to creation from excrement and
gaining
immortality through eating the body in death, gaining knowledge,
shit fertilizes,
doesn't it?
> moments of
*complete inspiration*... in my life number them probably
>below
> five--at
least on this level"(THE ELFS ARE AT IT AGAIN YOU GUYS!!!)
Makes me think we
should be looking for his five epiphanies in these
visions.
One more thing
related to part I--pg. 32-33, beginning with "She breaks
my heart just
like X..." and ending with "Everything belongs to me
because I am
poor."
Just to
intersperse here what AG says about this section:
"Jack's
candid observation of inner consciousness manifested in solitude,
the girl eating
in the cafeteria, is a complete world satori.
Here as
distinct from his
critic Podhoretz Kerouac is present in the world
solitary musing and
observing actual event in the cafeteria 'mind clamped
down on objects'
completely anonymous, in a single universe of perception
with no mental
maneuvers or self-conscious manipulation of any reader's
mind (he writing
for no reader but his own intelligent self)--completely
here, watching
the world--"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:03:06 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody, Part II
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Some more
thoughts on Part II:
his desire to to
create a body of work, like Joyce, Proust, others...
pg. 93
"And now to
make up for the botch of my days I think I can create a great
universe and of
course I can"
pg. 94
"the trouble
with life it that it has its own laws and controls the souls
of men without
regard for their least wish, and this is slavery."
pg. 96
"What kind
of journey is the life of a human being that it has a
beginning and not
end?--and that it gets worse and worse and darker all
the time till
time disappears."
K's joy for life
and living is constantly juxtapositioned agained a real
sorrow, sadness
about America and a human's inability to get out from
under the load
fate has seemed to have dumped on him.
similar thing on
page 103
"...and so
while I struggle in the dark with the enormity of my soul,
trying
desperately to be a great rememberer redeeming life from
darkness.."
Stuff about his
purpose in writing:
Pg. 98 "Now
what I'm going to do is this--think things over one by one,
blowing on the
visions of them and also excitedly discussing them as if
with friends as I
did last night joyously drunk in the West End (see
actually I'm not
old and sick at all but the maddest liver in the world
right now as well
as the best watcher and that's no sneezing thing."
Pg. 99
"I'm going
to talk about these things with guys but the main thing I
suppose will be
this lifelong monologue which is begun in my
mind--lifelong
complete contemplation..."
"Now events
of this moment are so mad that of course I can't keep up but
worse they're as
though they were fond memories that from my peaceful
hacienda of
Proust-bed I was trying to recall in toto but couldn't becaus
like the real
world so vast, so delugingly vast, I wish God had made me
vaster myself--I
wish I had ten personalities, one hundred golden brains,
far more ports
than there are ports, more energy than, the river, but I
must struggle to
live it all in footm and in these little crepesole
shoes, ALL of it,
or give up completely."
One other thing,
after K starts packing for going to meet Cody, the
vision then
spreads out into other times (moments) of leaving, like for
merchant marine,
tons of stuff on the ship SS Pres. Adams, and then
shifting to brief
spurts of memories about crossing country as in OTR,
wanting to catch
the ship, but getting there too late. I
would think
this part would
be incredibly hard to follow for anyone who had not read
OTR.
I'm getting read
to enter part III, starting with the taped conversation.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:11:15 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Denise Levertov.
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PEOPLE AT
NIGHT by Denise LEVERTOV
A night that cuts
between you and you
and you and you
and you
and me : jostles us
apart, a man elbowing
through a
crowd. We won't
look for each other, either-
wander off, each
alone, not looking
in the slow
crowd. Among sideshows
under movie signs,
pictures made of a million
lights,
giants that move and again move
again, above a cloud of thick
smells,
franks, roasted nutmeats-
Or going up to
some apartment, yours
or yours, finding
someone sitting
in the dark:
who is it really?
So you switch the
light on to see:
you know the name but
who is it ?
But you won't see.
The fluorescent
light flickers sullenly, a
pause. But you
command. It grabs
each face and
holds it up
by the hair for
you, mask after mask.
You and
you and I repeat
gestures that make do when
speech
has failed and talk
and talk, laughing, saying
'I', and 'I',
meaning
'Anybody'.
No one.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:23:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
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Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
>
>Let me
conclude now with a favorite among many quotes that I think
>captures the
feeling JK is always
> trying to
describe and hold onto simultaneously here and in his other
>works,
> the
"IT" of ON THE ROAD and the one long story of his life and work.
Arthur,
Thanks for post
which added a lot to the discussion, I hope you'll
continue to be
vocal from now on. I agree, the long
quote on page 15-16
has much to say
about Kerouac's understanding of these moments of
(epiphany?),
which I snipped much here for brevity, "This is the GO--the
summation
pinnacle possible in human relationships--lasts a
second--...the
moment is ungraspable, is already gone..."
And with
sleeping on it,
the dream adds different connotations out of time, I am
starting to see
VOC as his way to take the moments out of On the Road,
and re-tell them,
with more and more unconscious, out of time material,
and adding the
sleep or unconscious dimension to everything.
It is hard,
however,
sometimes to make the leaps from very descriptive "I am here now
writing this
down," to the longer cloudier visionary-type moments.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:26:09 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Arthur,
thanks for such
an intelligent post... Kenny G makes my
skin crawl... give me
Coltrane any day.
so far, my favorite album is Blue Train, the title track in
particular -
perfect music for reading the beats.
what's happened
to all that heady jazz of the 40's to early 60's... is it
being stomped out
by the almighty $$ catering to the masses, or is it just
barely there
because social/cultural conditions have changed? there is a
certain amount of
it to be found in SF; otherwise it's mostly Latin jazz
(which i
thoroughly enjoy) or this new age crap that they call lite jazz... i
guess they mean
it's less filling for the mind.
and Frank
Booth... now there's a guy you can truly be scared of. loved that
flick and all
that dark satire... Willem Dafoe in Wild
at Heart comes to mind
too...
anyway, glad you
"went public".
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Arthur Nusbaum
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 1:30 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Bentz:
Compare this
chronology:
"I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons"
-T.S. Eliot,
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"I have seen
life measured out in eyedroppers of morphine solution- I have
experienced the
agonizing deprivation of junk sickness, and the pleasure of
relief when
junk-thirsty cells drank from the needle."
-William S.
Burroughs, "Junky", author's introduction
"I have
measured out my life in emails from the beat list."
-R. Bentz Kirby,
"97-07-06 11:37:45 EDT"
I really
appreciate your jazz commentary at the end of your message. As a
devotee of the
Giants of the golden age ('40's-'60's) of bebop and beyond, I
can't believe the
utter pap that passes for "jazz" by the cowed, cretinized
popular culture
of today- the immaculately coiffed, substantially vacuous
Kenny G
culture. Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Monk,
Mingus, Dolphy, Ayler,
McLean,
Armstrong, Ellington (the latter 2 preceding the others but forming
the foundation
for them) are among those in my pantheon.
Coltrane, Davis,
Parker and Monk
(like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke on the Beatific
Mt. Rushmore) are
at the very top for me. I have a very
extensive
collection,
beginning with LPs and mostly in the subsequent CD strata, of
these Masters and
others. Of the 4, I had the privelege of
seeing only Davis
during his last
'80's incarnation. I missed the boat on
the others, born and
enlightened too
late. But about 5 years ago, I did have
a Coltrane
experience- I saw
a band that featured his son Ravi ( as well as Elvin Jones,
the great drummer
of the legendary JC quartet), whom I briefly met after the
set. He closely resembled his father, it was a
rather spooky experience and
I felt somewhat
sorry for him having to pursue his path in the shadow of such
an immortal
Giant. He was good as I recall and
probably has gotten better (I
think he was only
in his mid-20's when I met him), but how can he ever get
out from under
that shadow? I admire him for doing what
he must do
regardless of the
circumstances. What is your favorite
Coltrane item or
album? I would hate to have to answer that question,
so I shouldn't be
asking it, should
I?
I was aware of,
and saddened by, the deaths of Robert Mitchum, James Stewart
and Charles
Kurault, in such quick succession. Have
you seen RM in NIGHT OF
THE HUNTER? It's one of the great stylish villian roles,
right up there with
Richard Widmark's
Tommy Yudo in KISS OF DEATH and Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth
in BLUE
VELVET. And I recently saw the newly
restored version of VERTIGO on
the big screen at
a grand old theatre here in Ann Arbor, a breathtaking
experience with
an unforgettable, subtly complex and disturbing performance
by JS. Speaking of the cowed, cretinized popular
culture referred to above,
you failed to
mention the death, by his own hand, of Brian Keith, separated
at birth from
Robin Williams and my accountant, who looks like both of them
combined, and
with some Ted Kennedy thrown in for outline.
As Vietnam and
the upheavals of
the '60's raged, Uncle Bill blew off Buffy, Jody and Sissy
with his gruff,
lethargic "go ask Mr. French" for 7 straight seasons. It
took that many
years for Kerouac to get ON THE ROAD published!
This is
shameful, what
did BK ever do to me? He was probably a
very nice guy
following his
path and making a living, and I never would have wished such a
terrifying and
despairing end for him.
Well, I have
written again as you suggested after not hearing from you after
our brief
exchange a little while back ( you toggled me to get on my New
Urbanist soapbox
as I recall). This is a great and
increasingly obsessive
list to be on,
I'm getting to know the themes and MO's of the regulars,
separating the
Beat Wheat from the Chatter Chaff. Until
very recently, my
own
correspondence was one-on-one, such as my dispatches to you. But I've
finally gone
public and joined in on the VOC forum in direct response to
Marie Countryman
and to the List at large.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:38:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK/OTR/CODY
In-Reply-To: <33BF8E54.37AE@together.net>
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DC wrote, among
other things
(snip)
I am
starting to see
VOC as his way to take the moments out of On the Road,
and re-tell them,
with more and more unconscious, out of time material,
and adding the
sleep or unconscious dimension to everything.
It is hard,
however,
sometimes to make the leaps from very descriptive "I am here now
writing this
down," to the longer cloudier visionary-type moments.
_____________
yes yes yes. also
the difference in the physical realm : for me OTR is like
a silverery
skipping rock, which whooosssshhhesss
across the lake
gracefully
touching down from peaks to get momentum back up and down and up
and down, always
at a destination and yet moving even in head to new one-
as well as
fast pace more action and etc.
and, in
comparision, VOC is like rowing in an old beat rowboar out to the
middle of that
very same lake, and at the same site as allof those touched
by the
pebble in OTR, dropping overboard a
large rock and it sinks all the
way to the bottom
and then some stirring up the bottom and investigating
each of those
skips.
or sumpin like
that.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:37:56 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: proletariat #3
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shopping
bags
come
back
home
killing
me!
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:51:51 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Another Beat Bites the Dust
I definately
think that Charles Kuralt was a Beat, in the best and sweetest
sense. I morn his passing.
I believe the
core of "beat" was not sex, drugs and rock 'n jazz, though I
can appreciate
the positive qualities of those activities, to say the least.
Kuralt was about
exploration and finding joy in simple things, not so simple
but unrecognized
people and the beauty that is everywhere that we frequently
miss in the
day-to-day hubub of our lives - things like the Daisy in the
railroad yard
that AG wrote a poem about, the apple pie of the midwest in On
The Road, and the
exceptional "ordinary" prople profiled by Charles Kuralt
Beat Indeed!
It is not well
known that Kuralt was a friend and sometimes mentor to Dr.
Hunter S.
Thompson and was also a lifelong Greenwhich Villager (and rural
North
Carolina). His passing leaves no one on
the media who did what he did
- chasing the
good in ordinary folks instead of scandel and gossip.
Take time to smell
the roses today, and remember Charles Kuralt.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:05:59 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Comments: To:
SSASN@AOL.COM
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Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
>
> Bentz:
>
> Compare this
chronology:
>
> "I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons"
> -T.S. Eliot,
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
>
> "I have
seen life measured out in eyedroppers of morphine solution- I have
> experienced
the agonizing deprivation of junk sickness, and the pleasure of
> relief when
junk-thirsty cells drank from the needle."
> -William S.
Burroughs, "Junky", author's introduction
>
> "I have
measured out my life in emails from the beat list."
> -R. Bentz
Kirby, "97-07-06 11:37:45 EDT"
>
> I really
appreciate your jazz commentary at the end of your message. As a
> devotee of
the Giants of the golden age ('40's-'60's) of bebop and beyond, I
> can't
believe the utter pap that passes for "jazz" by the cowed, cretinized
> popular
culture of today- the immaculately coiffed, substantially vacuous
> Kenny G
culture. Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Monk,
Mingus, Dolphy, Ayler,
> McLean,
Armstrong, Ellington (the latter 2 preceding the others but forming
> the
foundation for them) are among those in my pantheon. Coltrane, Davis,
> Parker and
Monk (like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke on the Beatific
> Mt.
Rushmore) are at the
ver=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:07:45 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Beat?
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Not here to say
ill of the dead, but beat for Kuralt seems a mighty
stretch. There is a long a wonderful tradition of
describing the by
ways of American
life that goes way way back. In our century think of
John Dos Passos,
Sandburg, Frost, Grant Wood and a lot of
socio-realist
painters, etc, even Norman Rockwell (who reminds me more
of Kuralt than
the others do.) This is not something
the beats invented
tho some of them
did it very well. Kuralt always struck
me as
saccharine, but
then I rarely watched him except for hating his
commentary for
the Lilihammer Winter Olympics. But then I don't think
I've ever liked
anyone on morning TV so maybe I am the wrong guy to
comment.
J. Stauffer
Howard Park
wrote:
>
> I definately
think that Charles Kuralt was a Beat, in the best and sweetest
> sense. I morn his passing.
>
> I believe
the core of "beat" was not sex, drugs and rock 'n jazz, though I
> can
appreciate the positive qualities of those activities, to say the least.
>
> Kuralt was
about exploration and finding joy in simple things, not so simple
> but
unrecognized people and the beauty that is everywhere that we frequently
> miss in the
day-to-day hubub of our lives - things like the Daisy in the
> railroad
yard that AG wrote a poem about, the apple pie of the midwest in On
> The Road,
and the exceptional "ordinary" prople profiled by Charles Kuralt
> Beat Indeed!
>
> It is not
well known that Kuralt was a friend and sometimes mentor to Dr.
> Hunter S.
Thompson and was also a lifelong Greenwhich Villager (and rural
> North
Carolina). His passing leaves no one on
the media who did what he did
> - chasing
the good in ordinary folks instead of scandel and gossip.
>
> Take time to
smell the roses today, and remember Charles Kuralt.
>
> Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:06:12 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
Wilhelm Reich
Reich probably
didn't realized that he was getting into the number one
American
obsession. It is true this obsession
borders could be insane. The
new morality
speak of the New York Times and the current politics of
political correctness
will always cover up a reality that we haven't dealt
with in this
country. However it is secondary to our
karma with the tribal
peoples which
must also be dealt with. Unfortunately for gen-x and beyond
things may get
more difficult for those who can't fend for themselves on the
bottom of our
class and economic beliefs which are a shedding of that same
sexual armor.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:14:37 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
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Someone certainly
didn't forget any of his perscriptions this morning. =
I take it art is
pretty grand stuff.
William H. Rose,
III wrote:
> =
> The Playful
Poets
> by William
H. Rose, III
> =
> Kerouac
ruck-sack back-pack Buddha-Jack beat-back run-on James Joyce fi=
rst-choice
> odd-voice
free-fall flowing, you know, come on. (In cosmic slums Jack w=
rote the bums
> and beat
upon his clever-kicked and hobo drums in search of wide-eyed l=
overs who
> would hum.)
On the road his story told in non-stop verse so nudely bold=
=2E Kicks and
> chicks and
movin=92 on; swimmin=92 in women and carryin=92 on. Kerouac =
road-knack
> Dharma-pack
mystic poet of our past. . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:24:09 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "where have all the scholars
gone
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Marie,
shame on
you. Here I was getting ready to enjoy
some feel good posts
about
"Death" and "Life" and "Poetry" and
"ART" and "Bursting Hormones"
and how hip and
wonderful I feel after discovering the Beats and you go
and turn the
discussion back to boring old specific books which I might
have to read
unless I can find a Comics Classics or a Cliff's Notes.
What a cranky old
Beat Chick you are.
I am going to
have to renew my subscription to Seventeen if this keeps
up.
"Teen Angel,
can you see me
Teen Angel, can
you hear me
Are you somewhere
up above
And are you still
my own True Love"
Bif (and Muffy)
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> long time
passing," where have all the scholars gone?
> i know its
summer, BUT
> there is a
remarkable change over on the list, from young folks chatting up
> a storm and
maybe a few posts to sink teeth into (or pomes or folks or
> whatever) .
. .
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:22:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road
In a message
dated 97-07-06 12:33:51 EDT, you write:
<< Robert told them all to stick it, if they
didn't like it. >>
An article that
really impressed me when I was a kid, was Mitchum being
busted for pot
and there was a picture of him doing time at the LA county
prison farm. A
reporter or someone was asking him questions when he was
milking a cow. He
aimed her tit at the person's face and squirted a stream of
milk.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:36:54 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
In a message
dated 97-07-06 17:16:43 EDT, you write:
<< I still
like the shit thing on pg. 26
"...we are nothing but shits and we'll
all die and eat shit in graves..." >>
A little
off-thread here, but a while back Claude Peleiu said he read an
article in
Rolling Stone about Chuck Berry and copraphelia. Did anyone read
it?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:39:00 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
Denise Levertov.
Worse than
discourse!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:41:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWorks and FireWalks and rusty strings
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The Independence
Day
Fireworks
opened a
universal
wormhole
that connected
the cybernetic
grapevine
to graveyards of
memory
which i'd just
recently unearthed.
archeaology of
memory
is an old habit.
After FireWalk
was done
and i read it
and mailed it
around
and read it aloud
here and there
i realized that
it
wasn't about
the ghosts in the
words
but
a ghost
hidden behind all
the words
and
that Anne
was right all
along
about where
my heart
abided
despite my vows
to the contrary
and
now after typing
the
saga
onto this
cybernetic
highway
the FireWorks hit
me
another
grand irony
as the
Independence
day
celebrations in
DC
bring together
young maya
with the princess
who was this
ghost
and i wrote of
her memory
to maya
as maya met the
princess
at an
Independence Day Celebration
and i hear
through the
grapevine
that it is just
two weeks
to the princess'
wedding
to another David
one of so many
in the universe
and i must
am compelled to
create
a fitting
wedding gift
which may or may
not ever reach them.
so
i pull out my old
Ovation
and a garage sale
tape recorder
and
spend an hour and
a half
that seemed
like
a decade or two
singing and
playing
on rusty strings
with softened
fingers
and a growling
voice
and create
a package
and fear the
rusted strings
may create
infection but
the artistic
expression
is perhaps my
best
birthing
in many many many
years
and as the
package is being finished
i can barely
barely
type with my left
hand
for the soreness
from the rust
and
i thank the
Beat-L
grapevine
for creating the
wormhole
that let me into
this
happy celebration
in two weeks
even though i'm a
faded memory
in faded jeans
and
firmly planted in
the Midwest.
Somewhere on the
first
side of the tape
i started into
You are My
Sunshine
my
only Sunshine
and left time
completely
and i returned
to wonder just
where it came
from
cuz
i'd never ever
played that song
or sang that song
while playing
and the muse just
laughed and Hank
Williams coughed
and gave me a
good kick
and i
let the tape run
out while
i went to the
kitchen
for a cup of
coffee
and an Old Gold
Light
Now the second
side
winds to an end
with my
reflection
and her
reflection
so high
above these walls
in an eternity in
the woods of Vermont
that is always
there
but is thankfully
now
pleasantly passed
along
to another
David more
oriented to her East coast ways.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. this whole experience has put me hopelessly
behind on Visions of
Cody but i've had
my own visions so i ain't gonna cry over spilt blood.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:10:57 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Great Rememberer
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Someone posted
about Ginsburg's notes appearing in the back of VoC. My
copy is the First
McGraw-Hill Paperback Edition, 1974. In
the
beginning, it
contains The Great Rememberer, which is the introduction
and was written
by Allen May 17, 1972-Denver -- June 9, 1972, Rendezvous
Mountain, Tetons,
Wyo. Is this the same, or did Allen
write another
piece for
VoC? Thanks for your help.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:33:57 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy
darkness--random thoughts in reply
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
I have no identity that is not false.
>
>
still out of time
meandering
through posts between X-files show
found this line
of particularly
wise scholarly merit !!!!
shalom,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:40:13 -0500
Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Subject: Kicks, Joy, Darkness
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Marie Countryman was soliciting
thoughts about the Kerouac tribute
CD, KICKS, JOY,
DARKNESS. For anyone who might be
interested, I have
reviewed the disc
for the electronic journal POSTMODERN CULTURE, which can
be accessed at
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/contents.all.html.
Click the icon
reading "This Issue" (it's 7.3 [May 1997]) and scroll down
to the reviews.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:42:02 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: skimming Part 1 Cody
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funny ... if i
counted correctly, "Cody" appears PRECISELY 50 times in
Part One. wonder if such a round number was consciously
planned??? :)
Most meaningful
line so far (but mostly cuz of fireworks escapade)
p.9 (of the
salina public library edition)
"So it sit
in Jamaica, Long Island in the night, thinking of Cody and
the road --
happens to be a fog - distant low of kaxon moaning horn -
sudden swash of
locomotive steam, either that or crash of steel rods - a
car washing by
with the sound we all know from city dawns - reminds me
of Cambridge,
Mass. at dawn and i didn't go to Harvard -- ...."
so perhaps some
got caught in this foggy book. The
princess i wrote of
earlier this
evening lived in Jamaica and the memories of Jamaica are
striking here
(and throughout part one). but this line
especially cuz
we had more than
one rendevouz in Cambridge that were a fog where the
entire world left
and just us nobody else (except i do recall hearing
Dallas bitching
about us out in the parking lot fucking in my Toyota and
i believe a van
was scratched when in orgasmic confusion i attempted to
park a very tall
van in a very short parking garage and a dinner at
Legal Seafood
with two indians from the bronx)....
at any rate. i may actually read part one again when i
re-enter time
myself to see
what i missed but i know where he's at in Jamaica and how
it can play with
memories and whatnot!
bye bye -- off to
count the number of times Henry Fonda appears in Part
One (i didn't
catch Jimmy Stewart in there at all - damn shame!)....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:00:56 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: VoC
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A couple of
things. I'll save what I think is my
best for last.
1. I am only to page 10. I spent a lot of time trying to digest
Allen's
introduction. I like the way that Allen points out that
Jack wrote
history 15 years
before. That is the way I always felt.
2. I like the line on page 9
(ever so far, in
the hush, you can hear the tiny SQUEE of something, the
nameless asthmas
of the throat of Time)
That is poetic.
3. We recently talked about the tree in the
forest, the poem unread, and
Jack points out
on page 10 that:
"When I see
a leaf fall, I always say goodbye -- And that has a sound
that is lost
unless there is a country silence at which time I'm sure it
really rattles
the earth, ..."
That blows me
away to think of the sound of the leaf letting go and
hitting the earth
and on one level, the leaf does rattle the earth.
But the best to
me is in the middle of the description of the food on
page 10 where he
says, putting us on and raking the reviewers, and
paying homage:
-- of deepdish
strudel, of time and the river -- of freshly baked
powdered cookies
--
And if you have
read Of Time and the River, you know what he means and
to me, this is an
incredibly funny funny funny thing. If
you haven't
read it, I think
it is about 916, or 912 pages long, though I may be off
so slightly. Jack is jerking our chains hard hard
hard. I am LOL.
Much better than
the jerk off scene.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:27:54 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: VoC
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sorry about the
number of posts here, but, this is so sublime and scary
at the same
time. On page 12:
We find the bar,
rolling through the October climaxes of leaves falling
and Halloween
soon and I got red October shirt ah me so sad that every
year we have to
lose our October!
and this in the
paragraph right after he says:
All you do is
head straight for the grave, a face just covers a skull
awhile. Stretch that skull-cover and make it smile.
Prophet or poet,
or both?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:28:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: VoC
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Sorry about
the number of posts here, but, this is so sublime and scary
> at the same
time. On page 12:
>
> We find the
bar, rolling through the October climaxes of leaves falling
> and
Halloween soon and I got red October shirt ah me so sad that every
> year we have
to lose our October!
>
> and this in
the paragraph right after he says:
>
> All you do
is head straight for the grave, a face just covers a skull
> awhile. Stretch that skull-cover and make it smile.
>
> Prophet or
poet, or both?
>
> Peace,
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
prophet
of Dylan at his
grave!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:05 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Visionaries (Eliot/Ginsberg again,
for Michael Skau & et al)
In a message
dated 97-06-30 13:02:48 EDT, dcarter@TOGETHER.NET (Diane Carter)
writes:
<<
(Prufrock)
"Do I dare disturb the universe?"
>>
Disturb it all
you want. It still won't change one mother-fuckin fucken
thing.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:09 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In a message
dated 97-07-01 08:05:11 EDT, atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU (Tony
Trigilio) writes:
<< R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
>Has anyone on the list ever heard of Diane
De Rooy.
Yes.
...snip...
I have found Diane to be honest, considerate,
compassionate--and a very
good writer.
She is a professional. >>
Is she real or
Memorex?
Am I Attila the
Hun
or Tilly the bum.
Why do I keep
ducking the question
when all I really
want is a little respect.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:14 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In a message
dated 97-07-02 00:14:48 EDT, lisar@NET-LINK.NET (Lisa M. Rabey)
writes:
<< And
considering that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list
here
personally, met them, had coffee with them nor
shared in their lives, which
includes you sherri, maybe you do not exist
either. >>
I just checked
and I am not on any of the lists and have therefore determined
that I do not
exist.
I am not Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:17 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
In a message
dated 97-07-01 09:04:10 EDT, love_singing@MSN.COM (Sherri)
writes:
<< douglas,
i think that einstein proved that time essentially stands still
at
the speed of light... am i mistaken?
>>
I remember speeding through the light one
time.
$100 dollars later, I now stand still at the
light.
Red means stop, yellow means stop, green means
proceed with caution.
yieldingly,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:26 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kill Time, Save Vegetables
In a message
dated 97-07-02 18:33:49 EDT, iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET (James
William Marshall)
writes:
<< If
anyone's interested, I'll relate more of what's been going on with God,
Satan and other religious figures and me
later. >>
Shouldn't god be
making child support payments or something?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:32 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.& then
In a message
dated 97-07-02 02:38:43 EDT, pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM (Patricia
Elliott) writes:
<< I wish that i felt more secure about the
memory babe
material but my primary concern in that
controversy was not the theft of
materials and access to that collection (here
i shout, pardon) IT IS THE
JK ARCHIVES. >>
The JK Archives?
What's up with that?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:21:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cody
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707061728350733@msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> btw, maybe
this is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
> neal as a
sort of mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
Hi, Sherri. Yes,
I do see C a bit this way. In fact, look at K's
references/descriptions
of C in OTR--and he is referred as an "older
brother"
type (those are my q marks, not K's). C is what K has
lost--G--and what
in a very real way America has lost--the adonis from
the snowy
mystical west of the ol' luminous Dream. It always breaks my
heart to read and
see K's intensity of feeling for and trust in the
spirit energy of
Neal---but then we find that their relationship and even
Neal's soul and
daybreak days are like evrything else wheeling around on
the
"quivering meat conception" and are therefore mutable and always
already going
away and changed.
best,
steve
Pacific
University
Forest Grove,
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:44:16 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Jazz-poetics
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Please brace
yourself,
Coltrane has been
my man for a little while now . . . touched him with
'a love supreme'
. . . the saxophone being his rendition of the divine .
. . the
documentation of religious experience is not found through
theology, but
through art, through creation . . .
i have been
trying to understand 'Om', but having some difficulty . . .
must be patient .
. . 'Kulu Se Mama' (?) is also up there . . .
With the
jazz-poetry group, Rhythmic Missionaries, my brother performed
a piece
unofficially titled 'Jazzku' = he recites haiku then the
instruments
interpret / respond, etc . . . a bunch of traditional nature
/ seasonal haiku,
haiku centred on the spirits (beer, tequila, etc):
too much tequila
has been drunk this evening
composing haiku
Gautama (the
Buddha) haiku, and the final haiku in climax:
bid-de-deeeeee-de-bop
oh how i wd like to stop
writing haiku flop!
With regards to
Coltrane, this is part of my own writing, 'Winter' from
'Mountain
Tasting':
these questions pour out now able to
pronounce,
last season s hurrying through eternity
has slowed to the beat of Eternal
Slowdown,
boomerang trajectories of John Coltrane Om
fantastic
envelop my body with Trinity
translations,
Church persuasions are not my
affiliation,
(but i continue to dig in relaxation)
i realise much of
this is given out of context . . . however . . .
'Eternal
Slowdown' is a Kerouac term found in Mexico City Blues
describing
Charlie Parker . . . 'hurrying through eternity' is a
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti word combination from the poem 'After the Birds
Have Cried' (?) .
. . the line structure is originally simply one line,
instead of commas
there are dashes (Ginsberg's 'dash of consciousness').
The one line is
spread out into numerous lines simply because the page
is not wide
enough, (although the way it is written in this letter is
just as good) . .
. i interpret the use of Ginsberg's dashes as the
combination of
diverse thoughts. The mind thinks a thousand thoughts at
one time, why not
document it that way. The problem with using
punctuation, etc.
is that you have to be consistent with it = system /
pattern (in the
one poem at least), or else there is no coherency, which
is needed if the
piece is written for an audience,
(punctuation is used
to aid the reader;
yes / no ?).
As well, certain
poems of mine i view as purely jazz pieces - not with
jazz themes, but
jazz itself - the long line, although having a rhythm
implied, is
written without the rhythm being visual, giving the reader
freedom to
interpret the rhythm, similar to Coltrane's rendition of the
traditional
'Greensleeves', or any artist performing a cover piece =
which means, the
reader himself is a creator . . . as well, certain word
combinations are
repeated throughout a poem, similar to a repeated riff,
implying similar
rhythm for those syllables = notes . . .
o.k. . . . here
we go: poem titled "Days Gone By Remembered Now". The
long dash does
not come out properly on email, so will settle with " -
", it is not
to be confused with the hyphen ( ex. rainbow-chasing).
Italycs don't
come out either . . .
Days Gone By
Remembered Now
27/12/96 -
22/1/97
1
days gone by
remembered now while rainbow-chasing in Nappa Valley
California on wet-wet winding 2-lane
highway - passing vineyard
after
vineyard
as if gold and
maybe more lay hidden behind trees in misty mountain
range
just beyond finger reach must get closer or, drink bottle after
bottle
green attire and
children-giggle further fascination into multi-coloured
realm
where all is illusory and all is imaginary
in the all-real world of
the mind-
diversion
or, in the all-real world of the secret language of the
body
2
days gone by
remembered now while separated from young heart relations
her curley blond locks of fabled
proportions strong jawed, strong
limbed wonderfully waisted and fantastic
as if dreams
could capture laughter, teeth, hair and majestic all to
swim
with her voice in candle-lit bathtub to promenade naked in
cemetery with
firm limbs of youth there is only youth in love, only strength
fingers locked in
fingers to winter cool-breeze gallivanting the
immensity of
it all
two bodies, genitalia cloaked into one rhythm one pulse
one
body, mind: thought one joy, bliss, elation illumination
union and
formation in non-thought the holy silence of sex
3
days gone by
remembered now while back in bilingual city of
flake-covered
stark-lit avenues they being urban passageways made by man
returning
now to awakened status after months of
decay salt and sand being
the main
things expected
as if white
climate returned man to earth in new beginning where clean
holy ash
washes dirt and sin and repulsive reality
off must get head
straight before
day of reckoning or, at least must get head straight before
last
winter snow-
fall
ice-sheets turn
layer of earth into cold blue experience with night
howls
descended from the gods of the arctic coast where did they hail
from? where
do they go? tempting me in this land of plenty in season
empty
the gods
and their terror-hollow howls (slap head to understand) the
holy silence of
death
4
days gone by
remembered now while digesting waves of clear-mind
afterthought
from wind-swept disorder harmony discovered in dry crunching snow
or,
harmony discovered in wet snowball snow
as if weather was
a factor it being sense-delicious and
rambunctious -
it being
the IT FANTASTIC where in mid-street,
naked and alive, the pressing
of fingers
on virgin snow is felt under ice-sheets,
felt under layer of cold
blue earth
felt to the burning core!
from base of
spine to solar plexus, inside throat to top of head
emotions in
motion
emotions in motion burning,
rising, rising to stomach
in between
eyebrows, in between thighs emotions in motion emotions in
motion
the weight of love: awaiting fortune the burden of solitude: the
birds of
utopia
where did this hail from? where does it go? does the man
at the
corner hold the knife of redemption?
--------
('the weight of
love' & 'the burden of solitude' = from a Ginsberg poem:
'Song' )
I use this medium
(email) to help me document my own poetics.
I know this has
been wordy.
Thank you for
listening - would like some feedback from poem, if
possible.
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:55:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: visions of codeine
i have not
started voc yet. I'm too lazy to go to
the library. there, I've
said it.
I saw that movie,
Men In Black tonight. I usually never
see anything that
isn't either
foreign or an "art film" or better yet both. But, you know
what? i thought
MIB was a great movie. Except that i had
to pay for both
myself and my
goddam boyfriend.
words like
statues crack and crumble
exposed to oxygen.
spurious claims
of love
spoken into stale
bedroom air
have come back to
haunt and destroy their creator.
---maya
"when i say i'm in love, you best believe I mean I'm in luv, L-U-V."
DISCLAIMER: THE
POST YOU HAVE JUST READ IS ENTIRELY UN-BEAT-RELATED, THANK
YOU AND HAVE A
GREAT NIGHT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:49:38 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody
thx for the reply
steve... y'know the other thing i been
thinkin bout is
Jung's anima and
animus archetypes. maybe the whole thing
was JK's constant
search for
wholeness by knowing his own archetypes from outside himself; i.e.,
Neal is his animus self and Gerard his
anima. this then is transmuted to
America - the upright, uptight, established, religious,
oppressive majority
vs. the wild,
brave, daring, beat, living, questioning, mocking minority...
paix,
sherri
----------
From: Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 10:21 PM
To: Sherri
Cc: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Cody
On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> btw, maybe
this is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
> neal as a
sort of mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
Hi, Sherri. Yes,
I do see C a bit this way. In fact, look at K's
references/descriptions
of C in OTR--and he is referred as an "older
brother"
type (those are my q marks, not K's). C is what K has
lost--G--and what
in a very real way America has lost--the adonis from
the snowy
mystical west of the ol' luminous Dream. It always breaks my
heart to read and
see K's intensity of feeling for and trust in the
spirit energy of
Neal---but then we find that their relationship and even
Neal's soul and
daybreak days are like evrything else wheeling around on
the
"quivering meat conception" and are therefore mutable and always
already going
away and changed.
best,
steve
Pacific
University
Forest Grove,
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:07:22 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: the beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bentz wrote:
> Take it
away, Dr. Sax. Play on Train. Wail on Roland Kirk. Play on
> Jazz
man. Anybody but Kenny G!
=
take it away
Dr. Sax /
play on train / /
wail on
Roland Kirk
play on
Jazz man /
Anybody
but Kenny G!
slashes [ / ] =
syllable pause
in a 5/5 time
signature (?)
--------
"Ode to a
Queen Mary Birthday Bash Reunion"
1997
. . .
promised /
her a
poem
that night
i drank . .
. /
gin
after gin after -
- - -
dream-
ing of
gin
. . . and was
lucky / - -
enough - -
t have her
pour me
the rounds . .
. /
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:05:33 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: rhymers
bones dry faster
in the sand,
my promised land.
Ancient columns
of black granite
other senses,
from other planets.
Where the highway
turns to rubble,
an electric,
metal, shining bubble.
Rising softly in the
loudness,
the sea, the
night, the sky is cloudless.
When I say I
ain't gonna shove,
you best believe
I mean I'm in love.
-m
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:46:42 -0400
Reply-To: Tajimapena@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Renee Tajima
<Tajimapena@AOL.COM>
Subject: unsubscribe
Dear Beat-L,
please cancel my subscription to Beat-L temporarily. I will be
travelling for a
while and cannot get to my email. Thank
you! Renee Tajima
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:36:21 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I don't know if
anyone has brought this up (forgive me, Marie, if you
did), but the
biggest thing I noticed in rereading the first portion of
VOC is JK's
stunning use of colour (colour spelled the Canadian way cos
we have yet to
pry ourselves from the claws of the Commonwealth). In
nearly every
sketch in the first 32 pages colours play a vital role:
'Coffee is served
in white porcelain mugs-sometimes brown and cracked.
An old pot with a
half inch of black fat sits on the grill...' (p.3-4)
'a torn rubber
carpet leading to ticket box...painted gaudy orange
brown; [marble
counter] was once painted brown...now has a shapeless
color like shit
against the gray, almost shit-gray sidewalk' (p.4)
'In the raw wood
wall a strange beautiful window with blue and red
stained glass
fringes; sprawling "alpine lodge" crazy crooked wood
house...pale
shapeless snot green, stained with ages of rain and snow,
onetime red (now
forlorn hint of red)' (p.5)
'Western Music
Co. written in white against green glass with lights
behind but so
sooty is the white part it makes a dirty sad effect; the
Harmony Bar and
Grill in crimson neon upon the gray sidewalk' (p.5-6)
'The Men's room
in Third Avenue El has wood walls painted green...yellow
up to old carved
wooden ceiling' (p.6)
'noble old
ceiling of ancient decorated in fact almost baroque (Louis
XV?) plaster now
browned a smoky rich tan color' (p.10)
'she wears
low-cut green sexy dress under red coat...her green dress has
ribbon collar
then opens below to reveal bosom breastbone which is no
longer milkwhite
but weather red.' (p.11)
'the sky looking
like it had been sugar cured, peppered and cloved and
smoked during the
night like a ham and was retaining hints of glistening
moisture in the
skin-somewhere in its pigmentation.' (p.14)
'I see a Negro
cat wearing an ordinary gray felt hat but a deep blue, or
purplish shirt
with white shiny pearl-type buttons-a gray sharkskin suit
jacket over
it-but brown pants, black shoes, deep blue ordinary
one-stripe socks
and gabardine topper short and beat,..carrying brown
paper bag...-dark
brownskin- his big hands hang, his fingernails are
pink (not white)
and are soiled from a laboring job...' (p.18)
'a bleak
rectory...is that peculiarly pale orange brick, color of puke,
cat's puke...the
oaken door but pale brown oaken not dark...' (p.20)
'the MERIT Food
Shop, written in green neon (greon) in the window, MERIT
is, and Food Shop
in orange-now why?-...the floor is all shades of brown
and yellow
"pebbled" marble...'(p.26)
And the best
colour description...Jack's stained-glass window at St.
Patrick's
Cathedral:
'a lonely icy
congealed blue with streaks of hot pink-little blue
holes-painted
with an immeasureable blue ink, noir comme bleu, black
like blue...the
other windows grow rich, brown, dark, secret, get better
with age of light
like wine with age of Time-...my holy blue window, the
one like the
window at 94-21 that made me so often think there was a
weird blue light
in the railyards...taking the ordinary corner
steetlamp...and
giving it inky blue hues like that
apocalyptic-end-of-the-world
blue light, the light of subterranean
stars...these
glass windows refract NIGHT too for now I see nothing but
the rich-dim
recollections of what at dusk was a Rembrandt barrel of ale
in a Dublin
saloon when Joyce was young...'
JK's use of
colour continues through all his books, and certain colours
are associated
with different feelings:
white, blue, gray-coldness,
bleakness...stemming from the cold Lowell
winters of Jack's
youth
red,
brown-warmth, comfort...for instance the 'browns' in his family's
old house and the
redbrick of the factories in Lowell.
(so where does
'mauve boilermakers' fit among these definitions???)
As far as
Kerouac's spontaneous prose goes, the two standout pieces are
his reverie over
the girl at the cafeteria (which has been covered so
I'll skip that)
and his brilliant latenight musing in the deserted Times
Square cafe (p.16-18).
In the first part
he watches an Arabic-looking man, and falls into an
'Aly Khan'
Egyptian-themed reverie, fantasizing the man is about to be
dragged back
through the door and offered as sacrifice, the door being
'a big green door
[which] holds itself up like a lamb to sacrifice to
the sun at sea
dawn over him, and it has wings.'
Soon, however,
the huge plate glass window catches Jack's eye and he
starts a
mesmerizing hallucinatory spiel about the images he sees, both
the latenight street
scene on 6th Ave. and the images from inside the
cafe reflected in
the nighttime window: 'a great scene of New York at
night with cars
and cabs and people rushing by and Amusement center,
Bookstore, Leo's
Clothing, Printing, and Ward's Hamburger and all of it
November clear
and dark is riddled by these diaphanous hanging neons,
Japanese walls,
door, exit signs-'
Jack begins to
lose himself in the window before him ('like kaleidoscope
over
kaleidoscope'), then muse upon a fourth-story window across the
street, and lose
himself in the window again, the backwards cafe signs,
the shiny flashes
of passing cars, distorted images in a parked car's
round fender.
Finally, after a good half-hour or so of watching (and
writing some
absolutely amazing prose) he is brought back to the real
world by the
sounds around him, and he concludes his sketch with a
romantic,
heart-felt sentence that shows Jack as happy as he's ever
been: 'I hear
above the clatter and sleepiness of cafeteria dishes (and
swish of
revolving door with flapping rubbers) and voices moaning, I
hear above this
the faint klaxons and moving rushes of the city and I
have my great
immortal metropolitan inside-the-city feeling that I first
dug (and all of
us) as an infant...smack in the heart of shiny
glitters.'
Pardon my
language, but I had nearly forgotten what a fucking incredible
masterpiece
Visions of Cody is. And still 350 pages to go!
having a blast
retuning to my ole buddy Jack,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:55:09 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
Hi there Marie,
>
> any one out
there listening to the JK tribute CD?
yup...a fine cd,
isn't it?
> personally,
i am really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row wine"--great
> performance
piece and the kind of readings i aspire to.
That's my least
favorite cut on the cd, one of the three or so
disappointments
(Eddie Vedder, you're totally clueless!). I don't think
much of Maggie
Estep. Too much shtick. All this whiny, loud,
semi-yelling, New
York caterwauling is grating to my ears. Enough
already! Her
artistic high point (in my very narrow opinion) was that
heybaby-yobaby-heybaby-yobaby-yoyoyo-baby-yoyoyo
song a few years back.
But that's just
me.
What's my
favorite? I love so many of the tracks...Juliana is her usual
adorable self, a
wonderful reading, kinda like kid's story time at the
library, people
don't realize Jack was a big kid at heart and could
write with a lot
of whimsy...Warren Zevon is great, love how he says
"wiiinnnne"
(he should do a Kerouac book-on-tape with that great
voice)...HST is,
well, his usual inimitable drunken mumbling hilarious
self...Richard
Lewis is surprisingly good...Allen, Ferlinghetti, and
Uncle Bill are in
top form...Jack reading MacDougal St. Blooze is
wonderful,
totally relaxed compared to his reading of the same pome
(different
excerpt) on the Steve Allen album...Robert Hunter and Johnny
Depp are good at
reading the VOC bits...
In all, though,
the one that steals the show is John Cale's "The Moon".
Truly awesome and
majestic.
Agh, been writing
all night. Time for bed. I'll come out to play
tomorrow.
Good night.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:14:14 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Sherri wrote:
>
> thx for the
reply steve... y'know the other thing i
been thinkin bout is
> Jung's anima
and animus archetypes. maybe the whole
thing was JK's constant
> search for
wholeness by knowing his own archetypes from outside himself; i.e.,
> Neal is his animus self and Gerard his anima. this then is transmuted to
> America
- the upright, uptight, established,
religious, oppressive majority
> vs. the
wild, brave, daring, beat, living, questioning, mocking minority...
>
> paix,
> sherri
>
> ----------
> From: Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 10:21 PM
> To: Sherri
> Cc: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: Cody
>
> On Sun, 6
Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
> > btw,
maybe this is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
> > neal as
a sort of mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
> >
> > ciao,
> > sherri
> >
> Hi, Sherri.
Yes, I do see C a bit this way. In fact, look at K's
>
references/descriptions of C in OTR--and he is referred as an "older
>
brother" type (those are my q marks, not K's). C is what K has
> lost--G--and
what in a very real way America has lost--the adonis from
> the snowy
mystical west of the ol' luminous Dream. It always breaks my
> heart to
read and see K's intensity of feeling for and trust in the
> spirit
energy of Neal---but then we find that their relationship and even
> Neal's soul
and daybreak days are like evrything else wheeling around on
> the
"quivering meat conception" and are therefore mutable and always
> already
going away and changed.
>
> best,
>
> steve
>
> Pacific
University
> Forest
Grove, Oregon
And Dr. Sax would
be his shadow then i suppose.
How are you
coming along in Aion?
it's across the
room and i'm too far away to check and see where i'm at
on that one.
I am awake and
alive here on planet earth
(to any who might
have wondered)
my excursion out
of time
was a brief
beautiful
excursion.
there is but one
tape and
some
cyber-conversation
that even can
show that i was
gone at all.
so hopefully
the tape will go
off
snail mail
and the
collective delete
buttons will have
worked
their charms
and i'll be back
in the old
Independence Day
gruff
growling
mood
i was in before
overtaken by
nostalgia.
i intend to get
Damn serious about reading Cody today.
i intend
but rome weren't
built on one good day of good intentions
and
so who knows
..... gotta play taxi for step-Dad with the bypassed
heart. perhaps i can read a page between each stop.
Good morning
to y'all
where-ever you are!
It smell out the
window like the Harvest best hurry in the gathering
cause within a
day or two we're gonna have us one hell of a good old
Harvest season
Kansas storm (the kind movies are made about!)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:13:34 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: HST and hell's angels
In-Reply-To: <199707062308.TAA07664@pike.sover.net>
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DC asked me off
list if HST really hung with the angels or psuedo'd himself
through, and
since it is part of my summer reading project might as well
post here as well
yes he lived and
rode with them for over two years. the book is a wonderful
piece of
journalism in which events are filtered through the consciousness
of the
journalist. it makes a great comparison piece to the
explosion/gonzo/novel/journalism
of F&L.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:13:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
In-Reply-To: <33C0B895.11B5@sk.sympatico.ca>
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wonderful! i only
zeroed in on brown, (reminscent of Dr SAX brown)., and
JK's word
"greon" for green neon. this is wonderful reading and also brings
up "word
sketches" of JK again. if you are going to sketch in words you
best be aware of
colours et al. thanks so much adrien, great post.
mc
>I don't know
if anyone has brought this up (forgive me, Marie, if you
>did), but the
biggest thing I noticed in rereading the first portion of
>VOC is JK's
stunning use of colour (colour spelled the Canadian way cos
>we have yet
to pry ourselves from the claws of the Commonwealth). In
>nearly every
sketch in the first 32 pages colours play a vital role:
>
>'Coffee is
served in white porcelain mugs-sometimes brown and cracked.
>An old pot
with a half inch of black fat sits on the grill...' (p.3-4)
>
>'a torn
rubber carpet leading to ticket box...painted gaudy orange
>brown;
[marble counter] was once painted brown...now has a shapeless
>color like
shit against the gray, almost shit-gray sidewalk' (p.4)
>
>'In the raw
wood wall a strange beautiful window with blue and red
>stained glass
fringes; sprawling "alpine lodge" crazy crooked wood
>house...pale
shapeless snot green, stained with ages of rain and snow,
>onetime red
(now forlorn hint of red)' (p.5)
>
>'Western
Music Co. written in white against green glass with lights
>behind but so
sooty is the white part it makes a dirty sad effect; the
>Harmony Bar
and Grill in crimson neon upon the gray sidewalk' (p.5-6)
>
>'The Men's
room in Third Avenue El has wood walls painted green...yellow
>up to old
carved wooden ceiling' (p.6)
>
>'noble old
ceiling of ancient decorated in fact almost baroque (Louis
>XV?) plaster
now browned a smoky rich tan color' (p.10)
>
>'she wears
low-cut green sexy dress under red coat...her green dress has
>ribbon collar
then opens below to reveal bosom breastbone which is no
>longer
milkwhite but weather red.' (p.11)
>
>'the sky
looking like it had been sugar cured, peppered and cloved and
>smoked during
the night like a ham and was retaining hints of glistening
>moisture in
the skin-somewhere in its pigmentation.' (p.14)
>
>'I see a
Negro cat wearing an ordinary gray felt hat but a deep blue, or
>purplish shirt
with white shiny pearl-type buttons-a gray sharkskin suit
>jacket over
it-but brown pants, black shoes, deep blue ordinary
>one-stripe
socks and gabardine topper short and beat,..carrying brown
>paper
bag...-dark brownskin- his big hands hang, his fingernails are
>pink (not
white) and are soiled from a laboring job...' (p.18)
>
>'a bleak
rectory...is that peculiarly pale orange brick, color of puke,
>cat's
puke...the oaken door but pale brown oaken not dark...' (p.20)
>
>'the MERIT
Food Shop, written in green neon (greon) in the window, MERIT
>is, and Food
Shop in orange-now why?-...the floor is all shades of brown
>and yellow
"pebbled" marble...'(p.26)
>
>And the best
colour description...Jack's stained-glass window at St.
>Patrick's
Cathedral:
>'a lonely icy
congealed blue with streaks of hot pink-little blue
>holes-painted
with an immeasureable blue ink, noir comme bleu, black
>like
blue...the other windows grow rich, brown, dark, secret, get better
>with age of
light like wine with age of Time-...my holy blue window, the
>one like the
window at 94-21 that made me so often think there was a
>weird blue
light in the railyards...taking the ordinary corner
>steetlamp...and
giving it inky blue hues like that
>apocalyptic-end-of-the-world
blue light, the light of subterranean
>stars...these
glass windows refract NIGHT too for now I see nothing but
>the rich-dim
recollections of what at dusk was a Rembrandt barrel of ale
>in a Dublin
saloon when Joyce was young...'
>
>JK's use of
colour continues through all his books, and certain colours
>are
associated with different feelings:
>white, blue,
gray-coldness, bleakness...stemming from the cold Lowell
>winters of
Jack's youth
>red,
brown-warmth, comfort...for instance the 'browns' in his family's
>old house and
the redbrick of the factories in Lowell.
>(so where
does 'mauve boilermakers' fit among these definitions???)
>
>As far as
Kerouac's spontaneous prose goes, the two standout pieces are
>his reverie
over the girl at the cafeteria (which has been covered so
>I'll skip
that) and his brilliant latenight musing in the deserted Times
>Square cafe
(p.16-18).
>
>In the first
part he watches an Arabic-looking man, and falls into an
>'Aly Khan'
Egyptian-themed reverie, fantasizing the man is about to be
>dragged back
through the door and offered as sacrifice, the door being
>'a big green
door [which] holds itself up like a lamb to sacrifice to
>the sun at
sea dawn over him, and it has wings.'
>
>Soon,
however, the huge plate glass window catches Jack's eye and he
>starts a
mesmerizing hallucinatory spiel about the images he sees, both
>the latenight
street scene on 6th Ave. and the images from inside the
>cafe
reflected in the nighttime window: 'a great scene of New York at
>night with
cars and cabs and people rushing by and Amusement center,
>Bookstore,
Leo's Clothing, Printing, and Ward's Hamburger and all of it
>November
clear and dark is riddled by these diaphanous hanging neons,
>Japanese
walls, door, exit signs-'
>
>Jack begins
to lose himself in the window before him ('like kaleidoscope
>over
kaleidoscope'), then muse upon a fourth-story window across the
>street, and
lose himself in the window again, the backwards cafe signs,
>the shiny
flashes of passing cars, distorted images in a parked car's
>round fender.
Finally, after a good half-hour or so of watching (and
>writing some
absolutely amazing prose) he is brought back to the real
>world by the
sounds around him, and he concludes his sketch with a
>romantic,
heart-felt sentence that shows Jack as happy as he's ever
>been: 'I hear
above the clatter and sleepiness of cafeteria dishes (and
>swish of
revolving door with flapping rubbers) and voices moaning, I
>hear above
this the faint klaxons and moving rushes of the city and I
>have my great
immortal metropolitan inside-the-city feeling that I first
>dug (and all
of us) as an infant...smack in the heart of shiny
>glitters.'
>
>Pardon my
language, but I had nearly forgotten what a fucking incredible
>masterpiece
Visions of Cody is. And still 350 pages to go!
>
>having a
blast retuning to my ole buddy Jack,
>
>Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:13:55 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
In-Reply-To: <33C0BCFD.3B66@sk.sympatico.ca>
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>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>Hi there
Marie,
>>
>> any one
out there listening to the JK tribute CD?
>
>yup...a fine
cd, isn't it?
>
>>
personally, i am really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row
wine"--great
>>
performance piece and the kind of readings i aspire to.
>
>That's my
least favorite cut on the cd, one of the three or so
>disappointments
(Eddie Vedder, you're totally clueless!).
_______
i dont care for
her voice so much as i like the way the band moves in and
out. and the
rhythm. and the stop start between lines or phrases. but i
conceed in
general re: worn out scene.
>
>What's my
favorite? I love so many of the tracks...Juliana is her usual
>adorable self,
a wonderful reading, kinda like kid's story time at the
>library,
people don't realize Jack was a big kid at heart and could
>write with a
lot of whimsy...
___________
absolutely. silly
goofball poems seems to be written for her, although i
can hear JK also
in background . the clarity of her voice and the capturing
of child wonder
is a joy.
Warren Zevon is
great, love how he says
>"wiiinnnne"
(he should do a Kerouac book-on-tape with that great
>voice)...HST
is, well, his usual inimitable drunken mumbling hilarious
>self...Richard
Lewis is surprisingly good...Allen, Ferlinghetti, and
>Uncle Bill
are in top form...Jack reading MacDougal St. Blooze is
>wonderful,
totally relaxed compared to his reading of the same pome
>(different
excerpt) on the Steve Allen album...Robert Hunter and Johnny
>Depp are good
at reading the VOC bits...
_________
agreed. I love
the mcdougal st. blues and would like to have been in sound
room listening to
them edit joe strummer and jack.
>
>In all,
though, the one that steals the show is John Cale's "The Moon".
>Truly awesome
and majestic.
_____________
just re-listened
to the track. yes i have to agree. ok maggie et al can
take their places
in line, john cale just got moved up to the front row, at
least. more i
listen, i think the more i will appreciate. thanks
>
>Agh, been
writing all night. Time for bed. I'll come out to play
>tomorrow.
>
>Good night.
>__________
g'nightadrien!(it's
now morning on east coast) when you listen again,
listen as carefully
to michael stipe's "our gang" which has lodged in my
head and won't
get out. how carefully he enuciates (a miracle, for those
who listened to
REM a few years back), but also how the
music adds to the
little scene and
to me reflects back to dr sax bedroom imagination.
AND,
thanks for coming
out to play with me.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:57:50 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a poetess in the early peace movement Re:
Denise Levertov.
In-Reply-To:
<970706203859_191982931@emout20.mail.aol.com>
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At 20.39 06/07/97
-0400, Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Worse than
discourse!
>Charles
Plymell
>
Buona giornata
Charles, can i get better?
SUMMER 1961 by DENISE LEVERTOV
This is the year
when the old ones,
the old great
ones,
leave us alone on
the road.
The road leads to
the sea.
We have the words
in our pockets,
obscure
directions. The old ones
have taken away
the light of their presence,
we see it moving
away over a hill
off to one side.
They are not
dying,
they are
withdrawn
into a painful
privacy
learning to live
without words.
E.P., "it
looks like dying"-Williams: "I can't
describe to you
what has been
happening to
me"-
H.D. "unable
to speak."
The darkness
twists itself in
the wind, the stars
are small, the
horizon
ringed with
confused urban light-haze.
They have told us
the road lead to
the sea,
and given
the language into
our hands.
We hear
our footsteps
each time a truck
has dazzled past
us and gone
leaving us new
silence.
One can't reach
the sea on this
endless
road to the sea
unless
one turns aside
at the end, it seems,
follows
the owl that
silently glides above it
aslant, back and
forth,
and away into deep
woods.
But for us the
road
unfurls itself,
we count the
words in our
pockets, we wonder
how it will be
without them, we don't
stop walking, we
know
there is far to
go, sometimes
we think the
night wind carries
a smell of the
sea...
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * not a
competent beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:17:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: unsubscribe/fyi
i noticed many
people seem to have forgotten:
You may leave the
list at any time by sending a
"SIGNOFF BEAT-L" command
to LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (or LISTSERV@CUNYVM.BITNET).
this is not a
hint to anybody so please don't jump on me.
I just wanted to
provide this info
to those who are unsubscibing, so they don't find 10000
messages and
wonder what the hell happened.
--maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:43:45 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
Comments: To:
vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <33C0BCFD.3B66@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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adrien:
have listened to
the CD again, and you are so right about the john cale:
which you called
awesome and majestic. awe some.
mc
thanks for adding
to my enjoyment of the CD and that of others, who may be
interested enough
by now to buy or listen, as poetry is moving toward
spoken word and
music, AG and Burroughs, having both explored and
experimented with
and i believe opened the door, homer.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:44:44 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: more dreams
she had long
light brown hair and such white skin that you want to taste it
to see if it
isn't ice after all. We were running
from....I mean towards, I
mean from,
something; I was pulling her hand, we stumbled along a very high,
very rickety
wooden walkway, the only way out. she kept falling.
suddenly the
realization that we are children.
running in the
poppy field, wearing black dresses. late
for school. Such
sadness!
the sun made her
skin steam. her eyes turned green when she experienced
pleasure, red
when she wanted to.... drink.
I was confused,
something in her face told me she was my reflection. We
ceased being two,
outside each other. We had become one
person, ME, just
before i woke up.
Unfortunately she
is the type that drowns easily. Before
they made the
revisions in
their notebooks.
Now, all i see
are footsteps: men's trouser legs, shiny shoes.
I somehow
know he's wearing
a hat. His feet move one in front of the
other endlessly.
It's raining.
Zoom onto the
ground. That's how i know he has a hat!
because it's reflected
in the blurred,
moving ground, in the rainwater. Also
reflected are the neon
signs. it's night on East 7th street, but it's
really hot in the sense of
there being a lot
of cops around. Undercover.
But you can tell
it's the cops 'cause they all drive the same kind of car.
Fade to black.
-------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:51:01 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody, Part III
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Hi everyone. Am twenty or so pages into taped
conversation, and in spite
of Ginsberg's
comments on the intent of this part, I am incredibly bored
and yes, this is
tedius going, the total disconnection of thought when
one is high. Doesn't make me want to tape any of my
friends high. Makes
me want to go
back and read parts I & II again, if only to find a
coherent
word. Most of it is complete dribble and
not being able to
recall anything
at all. Going over Bull shooting at a
dead tree and
Irwin
constructing a bed, with lots of incoherent yea, yea, hee hee hees
in the
middle. The only thing Cody really
remembered so far is that he
has to go out to
buy more pot. Striking contrast the to
the absolute
gushy, wordiness
of parts I and II. Does remind me of
that Ginsberg line
where he says
"rocking and rolling all night over lofty incantations
which in the
morning were stanzas of gibberish."
Also, here for the
first time we are
meeting the hero, Cody, in his own words and thinking,
my god, how can
this guy possibly be a hero for anyone?
However, I will
continue to plow
on, hoping the development of this initial fugue will
lead somewhere
else, like jazz, gathering more voices as it goes along.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:20:47 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Colors
Great comments on
Kerouac's use of color. This has always
been
something that
has struck me in K's work. He was a real
word painter.
I suppose it goes
along with his idea of starting with the "jewel image"
etc. Be interesting at some point to compare the
colors he uses in his
writings with
those of his paintings.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:54:32 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: freshman clearing house
Comments: To:
"Penn; Douglas; K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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>Matt, you
still there? What are you reading these
days?? OR seen any
>good art
exhibits recently?? equally curious.
I can't be still
"there", there only exists for one second and then I'm
somewhere else
(paraphrasing part 1 of Dharma Bums).
Strangely enough
I'm reading Joyce's Portrait of the Artist..., rereading Dharma
Bums (for a
discussion of mountain climbing with the gang here in Colorado), and
trying to track
down my copy of VOC for the list.
Art? There's a decent exhibit by the Joyce Society
at the Tutt Library at
Colorado College,
there's also some good stuff at the Psychiatric Hospital I
work at on
weekends.
I'm only on the
list during the week.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:53:53 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: skimming Part 1 Cody
Dear David:
At the end of
your "skimming part 1 Cody" message, you write:
"bye bye-
off to count the number of times Henry Fonda appears in Part One (i
didn't catch
Jimmy Stewart in there at all- damn shame!)....
Since we're on
the subject of such references, did you notice the description
of JK running
into a movie scene being filmed in front of a San Francisco
apartment
building? By coincidence, I saw the
movie SUDDEN FEAR with Joan
Crawford and Jack
Palance just before encountering the passage, and put 2&2
together- he is
describing a scene from that movie being shot on location. I
don't have the
book with me now but I will try to locate it, I think but am
not sure that
it's in part 1, and he uses a thinly-disguised name for Joan
Crawford who's at
the center of the anecdote, it's a great description of the
weirdness and
tension he experiences when he bumps into this scene.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:51 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: HENRY MILLER
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Once you have given up the ghost,
everything follows with dead
certainty, even
in the midst of chaos. From the
beginning it was never
anything but
chaos: it was a fluid which enveloped
me, which I breathed in
through the
gills. In the substrata, where the moon
shone steady and
opaque, it was
smooth and fecunding; above it was a jangle and a discord.
In everything I
quickly saw the opposite, the contradiction, and between
the real and the
unreal the irony, the paradox. I was my
own worst enemy.
There was nothing
I wished to do which I could just as well not do. Even
as a child, when
I lacked for nothing, I wanted to die: I
wanted to
surrender because
I saw no sense in struggling. I felt
that nothing would
be proved,
substantiated, added or subtracted by continuing an existence
which I had not
asked for. Everybody around me was a
failure, or if not a
failure,
ridiculous. Especially the successful
ones. The successful ones
bored me to
tears. I was sympathetic to a fault, but
it was not sympathy
that made me
so. It was a purely negative quality, a
weakness which
blossomed at the
mere sight of human misery. I never
helped any one
expecting that it
would do any good; I helped because I was helpless to do
otherwise. To want to change the condition of affairs
seemed futile to me;
nothing would be
altered, I was convinced, except by a change of heart, and
who could change
the hearts of men? Now and then a friend
was converted:
it was something
to make me puke. I had no more need of
God than He of me,
and if there were
one, I often said to myself, I would meet Him calmly and
spit in his face.
-from TROPIC OF
CAPRICORN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:47:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody and visions
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Hmmmm.
... i guess this
one is slightly more serious than last post on Cody so
probably not as
meaningful.
as i skim over
and over thru part one (i find skimming a great way to
capture the
fleetiness of the visionaryiness) i keep being struck by the
"kind"
of vision being talked about or typed about here.
this is in some
regards an "out of time" experience in the longing and
memories but
almost a daydreamy feeling to it. the
thing that i'm
amazed by and
wonder about a bit is how completely "in space" JK is
during these
periods. the daydreaminess and memory
take him away from
the now but the
imagery -- so specific -- of sensual experience in the
here of the
situation is vividly typed.
so i'm wondering
a bit about this whole notion of visions as i begin to
wind down to my
afternoon siesta. i vaguely recall
reading some junk in
some biographies
about JK's notion of vision in contrast to others but
the thing i catch
that is impressive to me is his ability to
functionally be
out-of-time yet present-in-space together AND to be able
to put it into
words.
i will probably
skim it more and more to compleat the vision.
someday i
might even move
on to Part 2 !!!!!!
hope all is well
with everyone else who have fallen into this book to
live for awhile.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:20:23 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Washington, DC Independence day
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<<beautiful>>
Maya writ:
>
><<my
mind is drawing blank after blank after blank
like an unstudied
exam where the clocks tick loud, sweating.>>
>[......]
><<I
didn't want to, and I knew I wouldn't, go home last night.
It's a new year
for me. God bless America.>>
not much to
report from on here in San Diego. spent
the fourth new
years eve in Lala
with a bunch of stoner cronies.
fireworks as promised
displayed
prominently. no frisbee :-(
homemade icecream was brown
sugar and a few
other spices sitting around talking my warm oatmeal
beer tight in my
stomach sherman's cigarettes compounding
a coming
attraction
headache.
wrapped my arms
around her. not even a kiss. nice.
no, don't know
where I'm
staying. perhaps where I've been.
missed Joyce and
young Werther at the party. sounds were
happening thru
the stereo cord,
but nothing much to note. kind of a let
down actually.
good host, good people, poor party technology. a casual affair.
what is
said. and what is not. so many comments and declarations on
the silence. my hardened leather shell crippled this
monday morning.
sick of
metaphors. woke up in the middle of the
night, dreaming I was
being watched
like suzanne and the elders. church
bells and the fucking
sound of lawn
mowers at eight in the morning.
Douglas
sailed thru the
night
how the beat was
won there
gauranteed prizes
sacrifice,
condoms, and virginity
lighters without
child safety devices
star trek toasts
that involve forgotten replies
bathrooms like
the back of a barn
latches and hooks
and unexpected piercings
>tight and
tighter thru the night
and the flag was
still there....
o save us you
scholar bound hero
carrying letters
from the headmaster
jesuit fucking
liar how I hate you
corrupting the
latch
and the branch
and the snake
skin you crawled in on
despise and mourn
kick and denounce
hate mother
fucker
ah, joyce be with
me
cody unbroken and
and and
closing the gates
with carrots
damning the works
with
unheard of
insights
no no
<<toss and
tumble>>
good morning,
good night
><<Douglas>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:24:58 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707062131350398@msn.com>
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On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> what's
happened to all that heady jazz of the 40's to early 60's... is it
> being
stomped out by the almighty $$ catering to the masses, or is it just
> barely there
because social/cultural conditions have changed?
There's lots of
great shit out there -- as wild as that heady 40s-60s jazz,
just as great but
different too. I don't think we've entered a time where
great music is
gone; if anything there's more great music out now than ever
before --
certainly more than I could ever hear in one lifetime ("you'll
never hear it
all," <http://dsl.org/m/doc/rev/>). Music constantly changes
or else it would
all be the same thing, an infinite repeat copy of itself --
completely
sterile & boring. Which is where I think "jazz copy" music comes
from -- an
original work (such as early wild jazz) is recognized and the
patterns simply
copied and further homogenized, turning into that crap we
know. So where
it's at right now is definitely _not_ "jazz," just as modern
wild writing
isn't the Beat Generation anymore; but some great music's out
there nonetheless
and if you like old jazz I'd recommend you run out and buy
some Tortoise
LPs, especially _Millions Now Living Will Never Die_ and the
first self-titled
record. Also search out these bands: Directions in Music,
the Sea &
Cake, and the impossible to find "free jazz" stuff that Thurston
Moore's in love
with. Do a search for "free jazz" on altavista to get a list
of those records.
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:47:09 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilhelm Reich
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Sherri writ:
><<things
in JK's own life that created his personal terrors. i don't
>advocate
>becoming an
alcholic in order to write, but who's to say that that writing is
>any less real
than someone who is a near-Boddhisatva?
just a different
state... all is
One, One is all.>>
because there is
the down side, Sherri. pot, lsd,
mushrooms, alcohol,
cigarettes, wine
coolers, bubble gum, <<breathing>> <<prayer>>
<<fucking>> ah, each has it's down side. personally, I prefer blood
sugar. the best of highs. a good BS buzz will bring you up gradually,
give you peak
exercise of body and mind, good breathing, then a slight
recline and the
gradual falling out to sleep.
there might be a
one, a one end point. a concerted force
of chi, semen,
and watered down
by products of the mind, but no, well, yes, <<maybe>>
can you
sustain? can you interact? can you bring back the key from
your dreams? was driving back from Lala this Sunday
evening. couldn't
even bear to turn
on the radio. nor the tape player. a struggle even
to admit a few
hummed bars into my company. a truly
centered feeling.
chi-i-kerouac
hannah hoch dorris lessing. bought
"on the road" and
"memoirs of
a survivor" (doris lessing) as gifts for my lala lover.
feel like I'm
beginning to lead a double life. a
secret life. another
life. yes
<<thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, yes, oh yes,
yes, oh yes, oh
oh, hmmmmm [[eyes wide open, ah, exhale
>truly the
start of another snake skin long moan and die year.
>
>> paix,
>> sherri
>
>Douglas <<kick out the clowns -- MC5>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:46:38 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody and visions
David,
i'm not skimming
it, but am reading it by sinking in, if you will. i try to
let the imagery
and atmosphere wash over and surround me, swallow me up as
much as possible,
so i can try to be JK or at least as close to his head as
possible. at any rate, i'm struck the same way... he
has found a way to let
his subconcious
come to the fore while allowing what i refer to as the
objective
observer to continue to function at it's fullest - no mean feat.
the beauty of it
is that it allows him to use images/words to describe what
might otherwise
be nearly formless, nameless... a vague
sense of something...
in such a way
that my own subconcious can respond, get inside it and relate it
to some of my own
vision/remembering times, giving me more understanding.
(btw, Aion has,
somewhat unfortunately, been tabled in favor of Cody, The
Rememberer and reference
to Ulysses. i intend to return to it
during or after
what i hope will
be a group read of OTR for its anniversary.)
the other thing
that strikes me particularly in part 1 is JK's freedom and
facility of
mind. he truly is raw, balls on, out there,
no barriers, no
limits, brave
enough to follow his own uncharted paths...
perhaps that is
what makes this
book so overwhelmingly enticing and amazing: the daring to go
completely into
the unknown recesses of mind/life... how
many of us really go
that far? i, for one, find that it makes me want to be
braver, closer to the
edge than i
already am...
well i'm
beginning to ramble, so i'll shut up now.
paix,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:46:53 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: So happy to be joining the reading of
Cody
Comments: cc:
kpsnej@hotmail.com
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Hi
I'm Jens from
Denmark, and after at first asking a couple of questions, and then
just
reading this quite
extensive listserv for about a month, I am now very happy to
come
forward and
introduce myself by way of saying how happy I was to see the list's
"joint"
reading of VOC. I
have had this book for about 15 years, and while I have never
actually
read the whole
thing, that doesn't mean that I haven't started a few times...
I enjoy your
comments, and perhaps I'll make some of my own eventually.
I might make some
on Kicks Joy Darkness as well - I received this CD a few days
ago -
it's a little
hard to come by in this part of the world. So far I enjoy it
immensely,
although I tend
to listen only, I haven't really read the small print lyrics
yet. I like
the variety of
the participants; Juliana Hatfield's
take on "Silly Goofball
Pomes" is
great fun, while
Maggie Estep really rocks. Would Jack Kerouac have been a
rock'n'roller ?
Probably not, but the music works. The performances of the old
brigade:
Ginsberg,
Thompson, Hunter, Ferlinghetti, and I suppose Smith, Strummer and
Andersen,
are much as one
would expect, Burroughs never ceases to impress. Matt Dillon's
"reading"
is an unexpected
surprise, I didn't enjoy his recent performance as a Brian
Wilson-clone
in Grace of My
Heart, but this adds volumes to his character.
I am a teacher
BTW, though out of a job at the moment, and have been using
sections of
HOWL, OTR, DB and
Interzone, as well as poems by Corso, McCLure and Snyder, and
with
quite some
"success". I am hoping to publish material on the beats soon; in fact
I
already have, and
it's online:
http://www.sektornet.dk/gym/en/anglowww/kerouac.htm
- but
it's in Danish,
of course ! The illustration used is unashamedly robbed from
Levi
Asher's page.
The amount of
mail posted is impressive, I just came back from holiday a few
days ago; I
still haven't
caught up on all the posts, but now I have made one lengthy post
of my
own, and I
haven't even finished yet, because I would like to acquaint you with
poet Don
Paterson who
writes about a dog-eared Kerouac in his recently published God's
Gift to
Women(Faber and
Faber, 1997):
from 1001 Nights:
The Early Years
(Quote:) The male
muse is paid in silences. Shahrazad could not have been bought
for
less than minor
Auschwitz
Erszebet Szanto
Dawn, and I woke
up grieving for my arm
long dead below
the little drunken carcass
still shut in her
drunk dream. In mine, I recall,
I was fixing a
stamp in a savings-book, half-full
of the same
heavenly profile, a vast harem
of sisters, each
one day younger than the last...
Heaven, to bed
the same new wife each night!
And I try; but
morning always brings her back
changed, although
I recognize the room:
my puddled suit,
her dog-eared Kerouac,
the snot-stream
of a knotted Fetherlite
draped on the
wineglass. I killed the alarm,
then took her
head off with the kitchen knife
and no more
malice than I might a rose
for my daily
buttonhole. One hand, like a leaf,
still flutters in
half-hearted valediction.
I am presently
facing the wall, nose-to-nose
with Keanu
Reeves. It is a sad reflection.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:32:06 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
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<<ah, apple
pie>>
>William H.
Rose, III writ The Playful Poets:
<<
>"The
fastest
>man
alive" some say when pryed, others say he lived the way he died.
>>
...."lived
the way he died" yes. yes.
can't stop saying yes. must
keep
running. but I've stopped haven't
I. no.
still running. nyet.
59 more beat-list
posts to dig thru, then my morning prayer.
a few deep
thoughts, and
onto Ulysses and VOC if work prevails.
<<sex>>
Liked your
approach, William H. Rose, III. you
bring the complete beat.
bottom of my screen shows your "Tom Waits
impatiently I've found for
pasties,
g-strings, beer and blue" line.
Hm. step right up and speak
into the mic,
it's karaoke night::
"stuck in a
cafe when you've live too long
oh, oh, oh,
you're a rock n
roll suicide
you're not alone
looking at
yourself and you're too unfair
oh, all tangled
up
don't know who
you are or where've you been"
-- david bowie from ziggy stardust
"don't get
strung out
by the way I look
by night I'm one
hell of a
[[scholar]] har har
I'm just a sweet
transvestite
from transexual
transelvania a a
ah ha"
-- tim curry as dr. frankenfurter in
"rocky horror"
>[....] bye bye sweet transbeat-i-chi-i <<Douglas>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:42:24 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Vote For FERNANDA PIVANO SENATRICE A VITA.
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Al
Presidente della
Repubblica Italiana
on. Oscar Luigi Scalfaro.
"Egregio
Presidente,
visto l'articolo
59 della Costituzione della Repubblica
italiana vogliamo
proporLe di prendere in considerazione
la nomina di
senatrice a vita di Fernanda Pivano.
Fernanda Pivano, che
compie quest'anno ottanta anni, ha
dedicato la vita
alla cultura e con il suo impegno di
scrittrice e
traduttrice ha contribuito a far conoscere
la cultura e la
letteratura americana, a valorizzare
autori altrimenti
sconosciuti in Italia ed a qualificare
la cultura
italiana in America. Considerata in tutto il
mondo un simbolo
della cultura italiana, riteniamo sia
doveroso
riconoscerle questi altissimi meriti che hanno
illustrato la
nostra Patria".
Chi volesse
sottoscrivere questo appello aggiungendo il
proprio nome puo'
indirizzare a:
(address)
Gaia Maschi
via di Propaganda 16
00187 ROMA
ITALIA
(text)
"
FERNANDA PIVANO E' UNA GRANDE ITALIANA,
SIGNOR PRESIDENTE
"
(end text)
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*
Allen Ginsberg,
The Hydrogen Jukebox
Traduzione di
Fernanda Pivano (1968)
"Jukebox
all'idrogeno",
Jack Kerouac, On
the Road,
Traduzione di
Fernanda Pivano (1959)
"Sulla
Strada"
*
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:35:40 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33C083C5.1933@together.net>
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On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Hi
everyone. Am twenty or so pages into
taped conversation, and in spite
> of
Ginsberg's comments on the intent of this part, I am incredibly bored
> and yes,
this is tedius going, the total disconnection of thought when
> one is high.
[snip]
> Makes me
want to go back and read parts I & II again, if only to find a
> coherent
word. Most of it is complete dribble and
not being able to
> recall
anything at all.
Good to hear
someone say this. VOC is one of my favorite novels, maybe my
favorite Kerouac
work (surely one of his most ambitious, no?), but upon my
first read found
it incredibly boring and hard to go through at points. I
had to think,
What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
[eventually]
published? Who the hell reads this?
I loved his
evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
ability to get it
on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
transcribed,
open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
spent the time
with it if it was written by Joe Blow? I think a lot of my
patience in
dealing with this work was due to my knowledge of JK, to his
reputation. I
agree with whoever said OTR was like an outline or summary of
what would be
expressed in total detail in VOC ... also OTR was his biggest
commercial
success; it's like OTR had to come first in terms of being
published because
it's readable, it presents the standard plot and structure
-- then after
fame and infamy he was free to have looser, more "free-form"
or experimental
works such as VOC published.
OTR was the book
that "inspired a generation" or whatever it says on my old
sunset paperback
copy. It did this a mere what, 5 years after it was written?
VOC, on the other
hand...
Something else
about these guys that I just now for the first time suspect
might apply to
VOC: my wife doesn't care for Ginsberg's homoerotic poetry,
citing much of
his "i want to suck a cock / your dick as hard as a rock"
brand of verse as
the work of an extremely arrogant man ("You'd _have_ to be
arrogant to put
that stuff on a page and call it poetry! _I_ could write
poetry like
that," she'd say, and come up with her own Ginsberg-style poem
that would rival
his). While Ginsberg's life is now looked at as one of
"candor"
-- that also being applied to his poetry, the effect of which did a
Good Thing for
modern poetry etc., it has a flip side, as it seems to have
inspired a
generation or three of terrible pseudo-beatnik "poets" that
nobody cares
about except their pseudo-beatnik friends. Again, Joe Blow
writes a poem
befitting his name: "i want to suck a cock." Nobody cares, but
Ginsberg does it
and everybody buys the book. Something like VOC couldn't
have been written
by just anyone, could it? And if someone did, would they
be able to get it
published (and get people to _read_ it) or would they need
20 years and the
help of a marketing agent?
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:48:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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yep, he beat it
pretty hard. the art of living. hard up my lily white
ass. ompholos deep brother, Douglas. a tower of thought. cowering
under the
pressure. Maori tribal land skinned
locks. this daylight.
thoughts are
still thoughts. don't betray me, all
honesty. <<god,
having problems
breathing a single sentence out completly>>
for silence,
Douglas [[and the dark chamber pots]]
"the map is
not the territory" babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: James Stauffer[SMTP:stauffer@PACBELL.NET]
>Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 5:14 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
>
>Someone
certainly didn't forget any of his perscriptions this morning.
>I take it art
is pretty grand stuff.
>
>William H.
Rose, III wrote:
>>
>> The
Playful Poets
>> by
William H. Rose, III
>>
>> Kerouac
ruck-sack back-pack Buddha-Jack beat-back run-on James Joyce
>>first-choice
>>
odd-voice free-fall flowing, you know, come on. (In cosmic slums Jack wrote
>>the bums
>> and beat
upon his clever-kicked and hobo drums in search of wide-eyed
>>lovers
who
>> would
hum.) On the road his story told in non-stop verse so nudely bold.
>>Kicks and
>> chicks
and movin' on; swimmin' in women and carryin' on. Kerouac road-knack
>>
Dharma-pack mystic poet of our past. . . .
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:57:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants,
Obituaries, etc.
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants,
Obituaries, etc.
Date: 97-07-07 14:56:44 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: stutz@dsl.org
In a message
dated 97-07-07 14:52:33 EDT, you write:
<<
> what's happened to all that heady jazz of
the 40's to early 60's... is it
> being stomped out by the almighty $$
catering to the masses, or is it just
> barely there because social/cultural
conditions have changed?
There's lots of great shit out there -- as
wild as that heady 40s-60s jazz,
just as great but different too. >>
I agree, and also
many hiphop bands use jazz loops, which one could say is a
combo of Jazz
(from beat era) and william burroughs' cut-up method (from beat
era), working
together to create something new.
-maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:05:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Jazz-poetics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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JN writ:
>> Please
brace yourself,
trying
><<As
well, certain poems of mine i view as purely jazz pieces - not with
>jazz themes,
but jazz itself - the long line, although having a rhythm
>implied, is
written without the rhythm being visual, giving the reader
>freedom to
interpret the rhythm, similar to Coltrane's rendition of the
>traditional
'Greensleeves', or any artist performing a cover piece =
>which means,
the reader himself is a creator . . . as well, certain word
>combinations
are repeated throughout a poem, similar to a repeated riff,
implying similar
rhythm for those syllables = notes . . .>>
along with the
gift "on the road" and VOC, I bought a nice used copy of
Matisse's
"Jazz" series. a medium sized
art book documenting his
>beautiful end
of life art pieces.
>
<<
> utopia
where did this hail from? where does it go? does the man
>at the
> corner hold the knife of redemption?
>>>
don't have the
patience to concentrate right now. sorry
for all those
reading
this. but did spend a good couple of
hours seeing the Hannah
Hoch photomontage
exhibt at the LACMA this weekend. highly
recommend
for all those
searching for a strong woman in their life.
One of her
more famous
works, if not her defining moment, is the piece "cut with
the kitchen knife
something something thru the last days of the weimer
republic beer
belly something something" (yes, the complete title --
something like
that).
the sword of
damacles? the stinging fingers of
fate? and No, not if
you live there. the man gives you a discount and let's you
thru the
door for
free. but there's some test or something
like that, which you
have to pass
first. firewalking, ass-kissing, or
something like that.
Haven't been
paying enough attention recently. Hopefully
the academics
can pick up the
pace and provide better directions.
>> JN
Douglas
<<oughta be at home sleeping>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:14:49 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fwd: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz
Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970707145641_357594274@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 7 Jul
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> I agree, and
also many hiphop bands use jazz loops, which one could say is a
> combo of
Jazz (from beat era) and william burroughs' cut-up method (from beat
> era),
working together to create something new.
Yeah, right on --
as well as the use of feedback & noise in many bands to
produce a
"droney" effect and/or extend the sound spectrum used in the song.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:23:50 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You raise the
issue that has been troubling me through Part 1 and at
least half of
part 2. If I didn't bring my already
developed ideas
about Jack and
Neal to this book would I read it? So
far for me the
book fails badly
in this regard. Without all this outside
stuff we
bring from the
other books and bios and our own knowledge of these
people I am not
at all sure the book works. Part One is
certainly an
amazing display
of memory but we are given little reason as to why to
care about these
particular memories. I think the point
you raise about
AG's more
ephemeral stuff is also very valid. A
lot of Beat stuff falls
victim to relying
on already developed notions of what is
hip. Sort of
preaching to the
choir. JK's best stuff stands on it's
own. This one,
I am not at all
sure yet.
James Stauffer
Michael Stutz
wrote:
> had to
think, What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
> [eventually]
published? Who the hell reads this?
>
> I loved his
evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
> ability to
get it on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
> transcribed,
open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
> spent the
time with it if it was written by Joe Blow?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:35:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: god wants to know
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Ok, I'm in a
cranky mood. <<sorry>>
just got another
posting from god saying that I should backchannel all
of my
postings. that I should join a
"wanna be beat" list. He's
sick
and tired of
hearing all my shit. <<yes, I am
cranky, MC, I blame this
on you!!
:-)>>
so, inquiring
minds wanna know: Is god right?
my thoughts on
the matter, quoting from the great poly sterene of the
band X-ray Specs
("o bondage, up yours"):
some people think little girls should
be seen and not heard
but I say, o bondage, up yours [one, two, three, four]
However, except
that I would say, more pointedly with civility,
some snails think some poets should be
listed but not heard
screw this argument, let's take VOC for
dessert
cheers,
Douglas <<with 47 more posts to
filter before VOC beginning>>
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:57:35 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
Comments: To:
Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199706271459.KAA24385@everest>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 27 Jun
1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> Beat
Friends,
>
> I realize I haven't been paying too
much attention to this thread, but
> when I see
statements like:
>
> > > Science has already been proven
false. God before that. Is poetry
> > >next?
>
> made, I have
to ask for some clarification. . .
Please, someone enlighten
> me, how is
it possible to disprove science? What
evidence is there to
> support that
statement? And how is it possible to
prove God false (or real
> for that
matter), if you know something the rest of us don't, please share.
> . .
>
> Bruce
>
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>
Without wanting
to put words, or ideas for that matter, into the original
author's
"mouth," I assume that he or she was referring to Nietsche's
"God
is dead."
Jenn Thompson
I'm not sure
about the science referrence, however.
Maybe from Poe?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:07:54 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: God
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706280502450033@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, Sherri wrote:
> Why the hell
does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
> magical
powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
> little
beyond our own puny little selves?
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
>
i couldn't agree
more. i've often said as much to friends
and collegues.
to me, God isn't
corporeal. I don't picture God as
corporeal. in fact,
to me, it's
impossible to picture God at all. The
fact that we even
attempt to name
God is puzzling. God is a mind more
powerful than we
can even begin to
conceive. Maybe.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:15:57 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
Comments: To:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33B529AA.35C6@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Dear Beetles
>
> Does anyone
have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> restore some
minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> completely
evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> more Kozmic
Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness? Beginning to sound like
> what passes
for intellectual discussion in a freshman dorm.
>
> Dr. Sax vs.
Mocassins? A WSB thing like Western Lands?
>
> We did a
thing on "Wichita Vortex Sutra" that was good.
>
> HELP!!
>
> We need to
find a way to keep this thing interesting without someone
> dying.
>
> J. Stauffer
>
well, this may
not be an original suggestion, but here goes:
what about
looking at E.A. Poe in comparison to Kerouac.
I'm reading
Poe again for a
class now, and once read that he (Poe) was a slight
influence on
Kerouac. I can see it. Poe's confessional elements. Also,
his prose reads
like poetry (or one could term it "prosody").
i apologize if
this suggestion sounds juvenile (freshman dorm-like), but
it's just a
thought.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:20:54 -0500
Reply-To: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: "Beat Streets"
Comments: cc:
tpadgett@sbuniv.edu
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Beat Streets
by William H.
Rose, III
July 3-6, 1997
(for Al, Bill,
Jack, and Neal
and all the other
beaten rogues of the third vision)
Gesticulating
tongue
The open vision
mouth
Warped muse
In a daydreamed
location
Incense, jasmine
and roses
Curling up my
head
Chair-scattered
haphazard clothes
You and I thus
bookmarked
And scattered to
the poems
Made real.
But he explained
His
Bostaon-Harvard exploits
Not as an island
But as a sea of
phrases
And I thought of
my own place
Street-wise.
I have no poetry
readings to miss
Except, of
course,
When I sit down
to beat-read.
I do not
understand
The Buddha
"om"
And have no time
for dissertations
Which I waste
intermittently.
No S.F. City
Lights this
Nor dome-vaulted
Imax rides
Nor tome-tomb
renaissanced in books
But downtowned
blue-waved
And lake-front
driven.
I sensed this
jazzed out
Poet and I
Are not so
separate
He envisions his
world
And tempts the
Muse
As I impale her
passionately
On Hamlet's sword
and poison.
Speak beat
Plaudits on far
and high
And rapid
innocuous accolades
For all the
writers readers.
Have you heard
the voice of reason?
Are angels coming
back now?
A reunion of
sorts?
Automatic writing
In beat
technology
Beat pornography
For Kerouac's
scattered kicks
In Ginsbergesque
howls trebled
And Neal's crazy
visions cut-up.
Naked lunched and
injected
Non-menthol
heroin
Roach powder
Interzone runaway routine
At the foot of
release.
Where does the
paranoia of words begin
And the addiction
end?
Oh, and Bill.....
They're still watching you!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:56:54 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: God
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Jennifer writ:
><<i
couldn't agree more. i've often said as
much to friends and collegues.
>to me, God
isn't corporeal. I don't picture God as
corporeal. in fact,
>to me, it's
impossible to picture God at all. The
fact that we even
>attempt to
name God is puzzling. God is a mind more
powerful than we
can even begin to
conceive. Maybe.>>
Well, I keep
trying to get off this thread. God,
however, has my name
and number. Keeps dragging me back to a certain
reality. <<and I thank
him,
sincerely>> that process be
damned, we are expected to live and
die by the
reality of our posts. our actions. and in that manner, no,
god is
corporeal. He is quite real and if need
by, I can direct you
towards him.
However, I have a
sneaky suspicion that my God is not yours.
or yours.
and yours. and mine.
>
>> Jenn
Thompson
Douglas
<<eating>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:10:47 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
while i can see
both your points, i think Cody can stand on its own, just as
Ulysses
did... once one realizes what's being
done, it's amazing writing,
even without the
benefit of "who" the author is.
granted, though, the knowing
does increase
it's understanding and depth for the reader.
maybe it all comes
down to how one
reads it? (it's almost like reading
poetry to me.)
hhhmmmmm...
a bigger question
is begged, though. does it have to stand
on its own?
perhaps it could
be viewed as part of a trilogy...OTR,
VOC, VOG. dunno, just
speculating
here...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Stauffer
Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 12:23 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
You raise the
issue that has been troubling me through Part 1 and at
least half of
part 2. If I didn't bring my already
developed ideas
about Jack and
Neal to this book would I read it? So
far for me the
book fails badly
in this regard. Without all this outside
stuff we
bring from the
other books and bios and our own knowledge of these
people I am not
at all sure the book works. Part One is
certainly an
amazing display
of memory but we are given little reason as to why to
care about these
particular memories. I think the point
you raise about
AG's more
ephemeral stuff is also very valid. A
lot of Beat stuff falls
victim to relying
on already developed notions of what is
hip. Sort of
preaching to the
choir. JK's best stuff stands on it's
own. This one,
I am not at all
sure yet.
James Stauffer
Michael Stutz
wrote:
> had to
think, What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
> [eventually]
published? Who the hell reads this?
>
> I loved his
evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
> ability to
get it on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
> transcribed,
open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
> spent the
time with it if it was written by Joe Blow?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:30:48 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707072113520176@msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 7 Jul
1997, Sherri spoke of VOC:
> (it's almost
like reading poetry to me.)
Yeah, VERY much
so. It's like a hybrid between poetry and prose -- or is all
good lit like
this? Hmm... [thinking out loud] do the best lit works (prose)
read like poetry
anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:01:57 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Caro diario.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear diary,
i today have read
a very poetic phrase in "On the Road":
"climbing
trees to get into attics of buddies
where he spent
days
reading or hiding
from the
law" written by jack keroauc depicting the life
of NEAL CASSADY, reading or hiding
very poetic
reading or hiding
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:06:29 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I tend to agree
with Sherri and also see the points of the others.
Joyce is a good
analogy. Who would read Ulysses or
Finnegans Wake? Answer:
a lot of people.
I think it does
need to be seen as part of Kerouac's oeurve.
Yet it can
stand alone, but
like Ulyssess and Finnegans wake was not meant to only
stand alone.
It tries to do
more than only tell a story but also to capture an essence
(many essences)
as well.
It is also a
great catalog.
I don't have a
copy of the book anymore. You guys've
inspired me to hit the
library after
work.
At 08:10 PM
7/7/97 UT, Sherri wrote:
>while i can
see both your points, i think Cody can stand on its own, just as
>Ulysses
did... once one realizes what's being
done, it's amazing writing,
>even without
the benefit of "who" the author is.
granted, though, the knowing
>does increase
it's understanding and depth for the reader.
maybe it all comes
>down to how
one reads it? (it's almost like reading
poetry to me.)
>hhhmmmmm...
>
>a bigger
question is begged, though. does it have
to stand on its own?
>perhaps it
could be viewed as part of a
trilogy...OTR, VOC, VOG. dunno, just
>speculating
here...
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Stauffer
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 12:23 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
>
>You raise the
issue that has been troubling me through Part 1 and at
>least half of
part 2. If I didn't bring my already
developed ideas
>about Jack
and Neal to this book would I read it?
So far for me the
>book fails
badly in this regard. Without all this
outside stuff we
>bring from
the other books and bios and our own knowledge of these
>people I am
not at all sure the book works. Part One
is certainly an
>amazing
display of memory but we are given little reason as to why to
>care about
these particular memories. I think the
point you raise about
>AG's more
ephemeral stuff is also very valid. A
lot of Beat stuff falls
>victim to
relying on already developed notions of
what is hip. Sort of
>preaching to
the choir. JK's best stuff stands on
it's own. This one,
>I am not at
all sure yet.
>
>James
Stauffer
>
>Michael Stutz
wrote:
>
>> had to
think, What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
>>
[eventually] published? Who the hell reads this?
>>
>> I loved
his evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
>> ability
to get it on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
>>
transcribed, open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
>> spent
the time with it if it was written by Joe Blow?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:09:41 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: God
Comments: To:
"Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970707205654Z-279@sd-mail.sd.oee s.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:56 PM
7/7/97 -0700, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
>Jennifer
writ:
>
>><<i
couldn't agree more. i've often said as
much to friends and collegues.
>>to me,
God isn't corporeal. I don't picture God
as corporeal. in fact,
>>to me,
it's impossible to picture God at all.
The fact that we even
>>attempt
to name God is puzzling. God is a mind
more powerful than we
>can even
begin to conceive. Maybe.>>
>
>Well, I keep
trying to get off this thread. God,
however, has my name
>and
number. Keeps dragging me back to a
certain reality. <<and I thank
>him,
sincerely>> that process be
damned, we are expected to live and
>die by the
reality of our posts. our actions. and in that manner, no,
>god is
corporeal. He is quite real and if need
by, I can direct you
>towards him.
>
>However, I
have a sneaky suspicion that my God is not yours. or yours.
>and
yours. and mine.
>>
>>> Jenn
Thompson
>
>Douglas
<<eating>>
There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:25:26 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: God
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Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 01:56 PM
7/7/97 -0700, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
> >Jennifer
writ:
> >
>
>><<i couldn't agree more.
i've often said as much to friends and collegues.
> >>to me,
God isn't corporeal. I don't picture God
as corporeal. in fact,
> >>to
me, it's impossible to picture God at all.
The fact that we even
>
>>attempt to name God is puzzling.
God is a mind more powerful than we
> >can even
begin to conceive. Maybe.>>
> >
> >Well, I
keep trying to get off this thread. God,
however, has my name
> >and
number. Keeps dragging me back to a
certain reality. <<and I thank
> >him,
sincerely>> that process be
damned, we are expected to live and
> >die by
the reality of our posts. our
actions. and in that manner, no,
> >god is
corporeal. He is quite real and if need
by, I can direct you
> >towards
him.
> >
> >However,
I have a sneaky suspicion that my God is not yours. or yours.
> >and
yours. and mine.
> >>
> >>>
Jenn Thompson
> >
> >Douglas
<<eating>>
>
> There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
> >
The Committee
will seriously consider all of your beliefs and
disbeliefs.
sincerely,
The Committee.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:50:15 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
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Marie writ:
><<g'nightadrien!(it's
now morning on east coast) when you listen again,
>listen as
carefully to michael stipe's "our gang" which has lodged in my
>head and
won't get out. how carefully he enuciates (a miracle, for those
>who listened
to REM a few years back), but also how
the music adds to the
little scene and
to me reflects back to dr sax bedroom imagination.>>
regarding Stipes
annunciation, I liked how at the end, he starts to fade
away. It becomes hard to hear him as if if if the
dream is ending and a
decision has come
nigh. Hell or Heaven awaits?! Surely this is
blurring and
fading is intentional, yes?
>> mc
Douglas
<<cruel, gruel, cog>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:04:30 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: greeting from jenn - disregard crap at
beginning(mailing error!:))
---------------------
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Date: 97-07-07
03:10:37 EDT
The original
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Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul
1997 01:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Tread37@aol.com
Message-ID:
<970707014140_-57794407@emout04.mail.aol.com>
To:
BEAT-L@cunyvmcuny.edu
Subject: greeting
from Jenn
hello all
involved with this mailing list. i just
became a member two days
ago and am
thrilled at all of the insightful and intelligent mail i have
received. i would really like to become an active
member of this group, but
i am a little
hazy on how exactly i can participate. i
guess i'll just have
to jump into the
middle and hope i can swim. i have to
confess that, yes, i
am merely a
college student and have very recently discovered the wonders of
beat
writing. but it was love at first sight
i must say, and i am trying to
suck up as much
info. as i can. i am currently reading
OTR and JK letters
(1940-1956). i also have been reading as much AG and JK
poetry as i can get
my hands on. The First Third and Visions of Cody are next
on my list. all i
am saying now is
that i apologize if i ask stupid and naiive questions, but
soon i will fall
into the swing of things, so bare with me!!:)
my first two
offers for discussion may seem a lttle graphic and severe, but
their raw
innocence and lust and love realy struck me: AG's Many Loves and
Please Master
(1968). Many Loves really brought out
for me the intense love
that AG possessed
for NC and how freely this love made him
a sort of slave
to it and in turn
to Neal. But the innocence and
admiration that came with
the experience is
so well defined by the newness and apprehension depicted as
they begin this
exploration. Please Master accomplishes
this with a
different, yet
equally effective approach. the raw,
graphic nature of the
piece shows the
extent to how allen was a slave to this passion, and the
cycle of it is
thoroughly illustrated through the repetition. yet the love he
felt for neal is
so clear through his blind obedience and willingness to
submit to neal's
(as well as his) wishes, as unacceptable as they might seem.
he treats it as a priviledge to be able to
share this intimacy, however
purely lustful
and physical the graphic language might initially convey.
signing off for
now,
jenn (JF)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:32:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: more dreams
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: more dreams
Date: 97-07-07 19:32:06 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: pelliott@sunflower.com
In a message
dated 97-07-07 17:07:59 EDT, you write:
<<
Maya, i fail to understand the beat
connection. Is this related or in
reference to a book or something. respectfully
patricia >>
Patricia: this is
something I've been wondering about, just thought I'd use
your comment as a
jumping-off point to ask the list in general.
i'm afraid there is no direct beat
reference/connection. You didn't
like it? Sorry.
If you want i
could say that i was exploring the beat method of pulling
together the
conscious and unconsious. And the cut-up
method of narrative
(yes, cut-up can
be used with narrative, not only words) and of images,
started by
burroughs and brion gysin. In fact,
dreams are often dreamt in
cut-up, where
images/thoughts/feelings are juxtaposed and associated in a
seemingly
'disorderly' manner because they make a different kind of sense
than when you're
awake.
In general, I try to experiment with
words on this list, and I try to
do so in a way
that reflects the depth of the influence the beats have had on
me. If this is not an acceptable thing to do on
this list, please let me
know and i will
cease doing so.
Is
this list only for discussing the beats' persons and writings or
also for
exploring their ideas, and, perhaps, applying them to other, new and
different,
things?
Perhaps those of us who are serious
writers/artists/whatevers could
start a new list
in which we discuss beat theory in relation to our own work.
Or we could form two sides on beat-l,
the Artists vs.
the Critics
please let me
know if i should take my dreams/poems/etc elsewhere or at least
where I should
shove them.
hasta la vista,
maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:49:48 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: God
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sara Feustle and
david rhaesa wrote (respectively):
> There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
>The Committee
will seriously consider all of your beliefs and
>disbeliefs.
You mean god is not the pooh-bear? My daughter and I are greatly
confused and awaiting the Committee's
decision before burning the
hundred acre woods and skunking out the
heretics; wondering how roast
piglet would go with donkey giblets.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:04:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: opium=buddha of the masses
i once heard the
"om" of the universe, tripping on 3 hits of
bart-simpson-stamped
acid in New York city. it was under a
tree in
Riverside Park,
around 113th street. I mean, that wasn't
the SOURCE or
anything, that's
just where it came to me.
I felt like He
(Buddha) was calling me and asking me to come.
I was
suspicious
(wouldn't you?) and declined, but only after seriously considering
it. I mean it's
not the kind of opportunity one gets every day, to become a
boddhisatva. I knew it would be a lot of work, constantly
having to, like,
convert people
and stuff. You know, the Unenlightened
ones.
He said it was my
only chance, and after he faded away, i wondered if i had
done the right
thing. What would have happened to me if
i had said yes?
Just to try it
out, i tried to get my friends to hear the "Om", but they just
looked at me
funny.
Missed vocation?
Drug-induced hallucination? Perhaps a combination?
(((((((((((((((((((((((nobody
knows))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:10:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants,
Obituaries, etc.
"The Creator
has a master plan."
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:20:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a poetess in the early peace movement
Re: Denise Levertov.
Much better!
Though I can't get the image of dazzling trucks. And now it is
not the old who
have their own linguistic privacies!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:24:26 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Scope of Beat-l
There have been
some questions recently concerning the scope of Beat-l.
As it states in
the "Welcome" message, "Beat-l is an online discussion
forum devoted to
the study of the lives and works of the writers of the
Beat Generation,
especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William
Burroughs. In addition to serving as an outlet for
discussion, Beat-l
is intended to
facilitate scholarly communication and to serve as a
bulletin board or
calendar for poetry readings, announcements of new
publications,
upcoming conferences, and related events.
It is NOT
a chat room.
Recent posts have tended to veer too far in that
direction. Postings to Beat-l should be of interest to a
substantial
portion of
listmembers. During a discussion, a
thread may emerge that
is not directly
related to the list's concerns but that may be of
interest to two
or three members. Such a topic should be
taken off the
list and
discussed privately by those interested parties. Likewise,
comments directed
at a specific listmember rather than the group as a
whole should be
sent directly to that person. Recently,
someone asked
about posting
poetry to the list. This can be a gray
area. Certainly,
those poems
written in tribute to Allen Ginsberg after his death were
appropriate.
Likewise, poems written on Beat thems or in a Beat style
might be of
interest to the list as a whole. I guess
common sense has
to prevail. Fair of not, most people on the list would
probably enjoy a
poem by Gary
Snyder but they might not be as receptive to work by John
Doe. I doubt that a poem now and again will be
objected to by most
listmembers but
we don't want to turn the list into "dial a poem."
Also, please be
careful about not posting copyrighted material to the
list (including
poems) without the author's permission.
For those new
to the list, I
will repost the "Guidelines for Discourse" that were
developed to
recently to bring some order and civility to our
discussions. Look for this in the next day or two. Those already
familiar with the
guidelines can hit the delete key.Thanks for your
attention and for
your continued interest in Beat-l.
William Gargan,
Listowner
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:56:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
Good questions,
Michael. Do you really want them answered? We'd have to pack
a lunch for this
beatnik picknik, naked or not.
I don't have VOC.
Never read it. My wife read it when she was a teenager and
liked it. I've
listened to the Krono disc that Allen gave me. Too hysterical
for my tastes. A
young woman helping me with my mss brought me Holy Soul
Jelly Roll cd .
I'm listening to it a little at a time. Some of the poems
I've heard read
before. Read with Allen on some of them. I'm trying to get a
"time-perspective"
on them. I've heard the first cd, and the poem I like best
so far is Van
Gogh's Ear. But your wife's comments are valid about the
'cock.' The tone
reminds me of when I was a little kid
and another boy
wanted to get
under the bed with me to "play". There is a sense of juvenalia
to Allen's
homoeroticism that he seems to be hiding from that same "grown-up
Amerika'' that he
seemed to succumb to.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:06:17 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: God
"That book
is good
Which puts me in
a working mood.
Unless to Thought
is added Will,
Apollo is an imbecile."
Emerson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:13:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In a message
dated 97-07-07 16:55:48 EDT, you write:
<< I also
did a search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches >>
I have no email
address, just cveditions@aol.com or
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:38:12 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
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> Michael
Stutz wrote:
>
> Good to hear someone say this. VOC is one of
my favorite novels, maybe
> my
> favorite
Kerouac work (surely one of his most ambitious, no?), but upon
> my
> first read
found it incredibly boring and hard to go through at points.
I liked parts I
and II, can sort of see where K is going with this, and I
think I will
probably be fine when I get beyond the tape.
Ginsberg
writes about this
section"
"Thus the
tape may be read not as hung-up and boring which it sometimes
is, but as a
spontaneous Ritual performed once & never repeated, in full
consciousness
that every yawn & syllable uttered would be eternal--and
here it is
immortalized after all by the Great Rememberer and his Cast of
Characters
remembering themselves while still alive.
Dramatically, what's interesting is
that we catch Neal at a time
when
self-questioning and early exhaustion of lyric love, self-abuse,
have dried up his
expositional flow & he's considering (as many do at his
age) the futility
& repetitiveness of most of his own talk.
This is a
moment when
Kerouac is expecting Saintly Discourse; a moment frustrating
for all. Also at a time early in T-consciousness in
U.S. when Neal was
smoking
experimentally excessively, that is all the time. & experiencing
such aphasia or
language disconnection & emotional alienation as that
experiment might
cause, as well as awe and emptinesxs of mind which
simultaneous is
both mystical Virtue, & psychological pathology. 'Man
I'm
thinking. I've just spent the last
minute thinking and I had a
complete
block.'"
I have trouble
with "ritual" and the "every yawn and syllable being
eternal"
part. And also, from what AG said, it
seems that K had more of
a vision for this
part than actually developed, because Neal was so high
and
disconnected. The hero (Neal) talking
here, can't express himself
with his own
words. Where does that leave K in terms
of the hero
expressing himself? K has to do it for him later on by developing
this
theme. It leaves
K with the necessity of taking the writing back to prose
and back to a
romanticization of the hero again, which I assume we get
into again after
this part. I don't have trouble with
there being few
actions here,
with visions, or unconscious language, only with the idea
that every
syllable is eternal simply because it comes from the mouth of
the hero."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:03:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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> Michael
Stutz wrote:
> Something
else about these guys that I just now for the first time
>suspect
> might apply
to VOC: my wife doesn't care for Ginsberg's homoerotic
>poetry,
> citing much
of his "i want to suck a cock / your dick as hard as a
>rock"
> brand of
verse as the work of an extremely arrogant man ("You'd _have_
>to be
> arrogant to
put that stuff on a page and call it poetry! _I_ could
>write
> poetry like
that," she'd say, and come up with her own Ginsberg-style
>poem
> that would
rival his). While Ginsberg's life is now looked at as one of
>
"candor" -- that also being applied to his poetry, the effect of
which
>did a
> Good Thing
for modern poetry etc., it has a flip side, as it seems to
>have
> inspired a
generation or three of terrible pseudo-beatnik "poets" that
> nobody cares
about except their pseudo-beatnik friends. Again, Joe Blow
> writes a
poem befitting his name: "i want to suck a cock." Nobody
>cares, but
> Ginsberg
does it and everybody buys the book. Something like VOC
>couldn't
> have been
written by just anyone, could it? And if someone did, would
>they
> be able to
get it published (and get people to _read_ it) or would they
>need
> 20 years and
the help of a marketing agent?
>
First of all, I
don't think VOC fits into this category.
I think K did
have a vision of
his own for the work that was meant to perhaps take
language out of
time in much the same way that Joyce did; that he wanted
to take many only
3-4 human actions in the whole work and have those
dispersed with
all of the out-of-time memories and unconscious material
that daily floats
through the mind? Did he accomplish
that? I won't form
an opinion on
that till I get to the end.
But I think what you are talking about
with regards to Ginsberg
is a different
thing. A lot of people disregard AG's
poetry because they
find it
self-indulgent and arrogant that he would write about, for
example, his
cock. Does that leave it open for anyone
to call
himself/herself a
poet and start writing about genitalia and think that
that makes them a
great poet? Any poet needs to ground
their
intellectualness
in their humanness. For Ginsberg,
perhaps there is a
line between
self-indulgence and self-expressiveness.
He broke barriors
in modern poetry
but it wasn't because he just wrote about the human body
or
sexuality. Even what many call formless
had a larger structural
form, all part of
a larger framework.
DC
y top for
me. I have a very extensive
> collection,
beginning with LPs and mostly in the subsequent CD strata, of
> these
Masters and others. Of the 4, I had the
privelege of seeing only Davis
> during his
last '80's incarnation. I missed the
boat on the others, born and
> enlightened
too late. But about 5 years ago, I did
have a Coltrane
> experience-
I saw a band that featured his son Ravi ( as well as Elvin Jones,
> the great
drummer of the legendary JC quartet), whom I briefly met after the
> set. He closely resembled his father, it was a
rather spooky experience and
> I felt
somewhat sorry for him having to pursue his path in the shadow of such
> an immortal
Giant. He was good as I recall and
probably has gotten better (I
> think he was
only in his mid-20's when I met him), but how can he ever get
> out from
under that shadow? I admire him for
doing what he must do
> regardless
of the circumstances. What is your
favorite Coltrane item or
> album? I would hate to have to answer that question,
so I shouldn't be
> asking it,
should I?
>
> I was aware
of, and saddened by, the deaths of Robert Mitchum, James Stewart
> and Charles
Kurault, in such quick succession. Have
you seen RM in NIGHT OF
> THE
HUNTER? It's one of the great stylish
villian roles, right up there with
> Richard
Widmark's Tommy Yudo in KISS OF DEATH and Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth
> in BLUE
VELVET. And I recently saw the newly
restored version of VERTIGO on
> the big
screen at a grand old theatre here in Ann Arbor, a breathtaking
> experience
with an unforgettable, subtly complex and disturbing performance
> by JS. Speaking of the cowed, cretinized popular
culture referred to above,
> you failed
to mention the death, by his own hand, of Brian Keith, separated
> at birth
from Robin Williams and my accountant, who looks like both of them
> combined,
and with some Ted Kennedy thrown in for outline. As Vietnam and
> the
upheavals of the '60's raged, Uncle Bill blew off Buffy, Jody and Sissy
> with his
gruff, lethargic "go ask Mr. French" for 7 straight seasons. It
> took that
many years for Kerouac to get ON THE ROAD published! This is
> shameful,
what did BK ever do to me? He was
probably a very nice guy
> following
his path and making a living, and I never would have wished such a
> terrifying
and despairing end for him.
>
> Well, I have
written again as you suggested after not hearing from you after
> our brief
exchange a little while back ( you toggled me to get on my New
> Urbanist
soapbox as I recall). This is a great
and increasingly obsessive
> list to be
on, I'm getting to know the themes and MO's of the regulars,
> separating
the Beat Wheat from the Chatter Chaff.
Until very recently, my
> own correspondence
was one-on-one, such as my dispatches to you.
But I've
> finally gone
public and joined in on the VOC forum in direct response to
> Marie
Countryman and to the List at large.
>
> Regards,
>
> Arthur S.
Nusbaum
Arthur:
When you delurk
you do not mess around. I always assumed Dr. Sax was
named that by
Jack for the jazz sax players who can haunt you like a
mystery in your
brain. What was the man who just quit
playing and went
out every night
and played on the Brooklyn bridge? There
is something
about the sax
that is lost in today's music. Whether
you like them or
not, Train and
others were the boss, and noone has picked up the
challenge. But I mean, lock Kenny G and Yanni in a room
together and
see what
happens. Maybe they could force each
other to play!!!!
Glad to help
someone delurk, but wow, what a powerful beginning today.
I love this
list! It is the only thing I know of on
the internet that
requires thought.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:18:45 -0500
Reply-To: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: "The Playful Poets"
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The Playful Poets
by William H.
Rose, III
Kerouac ruck-sack
back-pack Buddha-Jack beat-back run-on James Joyce firs=
t-choice
odd-voice
free-fall flowing, you know, come on. (In cosmic slums Jack wro=
te the bums
and beat upon his
clever-kicked and hobo drums in search of wide-eyed lov=
ers who
would hum.) On
the road his story told in non-stop verse so nudely bold. =
Kicks and
chicks and
movin=92 on; swimmin=92 in women and carryin=92 on. Kerouac ro=
ad-knack
Dharma-pack
mystic poet of our past.
Dharma lion,
love-crazed cryin=92, house of Zion, outlived dyin=92. Allen=
Ginsberg phallic-
rimsword, fault
gestalt Whitman Walt, no man, everyman, woman, man! Kaddi=
sh,
Kaddish, Kaddish,
rave and reel, the secret hero of the =93Howl=94 was Ne=
al. =93The
fastest
man alive=94 some
say when pryed, others say he lived the way he died. Ke=
n Kessy testing
LSD the bus
=93Furthur=94 on a spree in colors all a-glow; Neal=92s drivi=
n=92, the Dead
are
thrivin=92 in the
Merry Prankster Show. Further, Furthur, further, off to=
the extreme;
deeper, steeper,
deeper at the edge of my beat-dream. Flower-power acid-t=
ower
peace-hour, free;
The Electric-Koolaid-Acid-Test and 1963.
Generation,
inspiration, imagination, confirmation; When did I find time =
for this beat
emancipation?
J.S. Bach turned
waltz to rock and Hendrix played it loud; The Grateful D=
ead they spun
some heads but
Mozart stunned the crowds (at only 4!). Courtney Love and =
Kurt Cobain,
Perry Farrell and
Alice In Chains. Bob Dylan was distillin=92 the essence=
of folk rock while
Iggy Popp the
stage he hopped naked all a-swingin=92-bopped. Carol King, =
Prince, and
Queen, royalty
the music scene. And Bo and Bird without a word the sweete=
st sounds
I=92ve ever
heard. Tom Waits impatiently I=92ve found for pasties, g-stri=
ngs, beer and
blue
sound.
Hip-hop (give it
away now), Punk Rock (in your face, wow!), Raggae (Rasta=
fari, man),
Techno (music in
a can), Ragtime (Joplin=92s slammin=92 keys), The Blues =
(B.B.=92s on his
knees), Classic
(music for the head), Cool Jazz (from the heart is fed), =
Rock =91N Roll
(the
time has come),
Slow Souls (melts them into one).
Thomas Stearns
(T.S.) Eliot cosmic burn poetic delicate free-verse letter=
s Wasteland
empty it. e.e.
cummings, he be cunning, words so stunning, see me coming,=
poetry with
wit. Salvador
Dali Llama, Dharma blues and bums with news, William Shakes=
peare did
you all hear
Elvis has blue shoes (watch your step now!). Buddha, Christ,=
and Allah
praises; Genghis,
Vlad, and Hitler crazes, ashes death to dust. Lord Byro=
n I=92m
admirin=92,
Socrates
philosophies please, and Charlemagne made quite a name while Nea=
l Young
slept in rust.
Robert Frost was never lost while Whitman=92s truth was su=
ddenly tossed at
Henry and June
two lovers star-crossed. Ezra Pound China-found canto-boun=
d full of
sound, Yao! And
Emily a mystery wrote poetry for all to see, wow! Ferling=
hetti word
confetti,
scat-back ready, beatnik steady, City Lights heady, the =93Howl=
=94 was so much
fun;
James Dean was
such a scream and Morrison was filled with dreams and both=
died much
too young. Jim
Carroll lives with Randal Jarrell my bookshelf won with Le=
wis Carol. The
Hobohemian
hepcat-hipster tried to make it with a twister. And Leonard Co=
hen wrote all
alone =93her
perfect body=94 Suzanne poem.
Bus-stop red-hot
flip-flop last-stop dew-drop bop-hop flick of the lovers=
tongue; stop-gap
beat-rap sex-trap
hip-wrap sound-tap flap-clap pose of the rebel young. A=
nd in the 1990=92s
we are confused
=91bout lust, can we, should we, would we tender touch, o=
f lovers who are
loving not
enough, or, perhaps, maybe, of course, too much?
Claude Monet no
pallet gray, colors rich and full of May. Vincent painted=
Starry Nights
and softly
unveiled the world=92s rights. da Vinci gave us mirrored hands=
and all the
wonders of the
land. And Gustav Klimt the kissers primped within his arms=
her body
limp (waiting for
=93The Kiss=94); for Lenny Kaye and Patti=92s way they =
=93Ask The
Angels=94
come and play
(sweet poetic bliss).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:25:22 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: MC--I salute you
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MC:
Today, had more
good posts than I could digest. You go
girl. I salute
your wonderful
handling of your mood and obtaining what you wanted
without being,
well, you know what I am trying to say here.
Damn good
job. Good list and I just felt VoC was such a hard
book to read because
of the way I read
and the way Jack wrote it. He wants to
recreate
reality with
words, and I read it that way, and it takes my energy. I
want to read Pic
though, so I will read VoC in hopes someone else will
go there with
me. Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:27:41 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: is it art?
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970628171021_203057940@emout18.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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thanks for
posting this strange unrelated? post the reading of that list
was
MiNDblowinG...
for some one who
just reliezed that you can get lost on a computer like
someone walking
on the street in life--and not just in virtuospace
either, i mean
just on my frames windows in this computer as i wus tryin
to get to where i
log in like a journey failer quest like real? life
(and thus al so
with a mind separate from the reality controling the
movement of the
show) and thru the dark woodsy forest i came to te land
of the Beat-list.
wow i originally typed it as Berat-l.
heeeeheeeehheeeeehhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeehhheeehhhhhheeee.
now for your
viewing pleasure or deleting pleasure:
a newborn poem,
birth in process...
Im not going to
be smoking no more
cause i always think people
misterpret me
which they do
which i misinterpret
for a different
misinterpretation
misinterpretations of reality
!?
are you getting
this??
not so easy to write
about
as can you think?
oh where did
those moons go...oh where did these lil'
brains expire
i my head
in my missing
mind
goofin sorry,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Sat,
28 Jun 1997, Maya
Gorton wrote:
> this is a
quote from that website i told you about.
I think this person's
> site is
brilliant. i think it's art. you have no idea what to do and it
> forces you
to do something you never thought of doing.
And then it keeps
> working by
these inane rules. CLICK ON THE BRAIN
that's all i'm gonna say.
> There are pages and paages of really cool
text and web-craziness, but you
> gotta work
for it. here's a pretty tame quote,
anyway. again, go to:
>
>
http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~maldoror/links.html
>
> for more.
and remember to click on the brain, and click all over after that.
> I think that
he's talking about himself and his website here.
>
>
"Benjamin's notes for the Passagen-werk are
> fragments of
citations in which the great majority
> of the
project's themes are stated in abbreviated
> fashion.
Arcades (reconstructed), art-couture
> fashion,
hypersensitive boredom, dream-kitsch,
> emotive
souvenirs, mannequins, black neon lights,
> VR-headsets,
mimetic polyalloy architecture,
> stop-frame
animation, holographic prostitution,
> millennial
flaneurs, book arts collectors, data
>
counterfeiting, Montemartre alleyways, museum
> casings,
department store tele-displays, metros,
> email
postcards, sidewalk graffiti, reflections from
> computer
terminals, catacombs, interior industrial
> design, MTV
channels, ethernet connections,
> neo-Gaudian
urban planning, Baudelaire's opium
> shock-urbanism.
Central methodological concepts
> are also
present in the notes: dream image,
>
phantasmagoria, dreaming collective, ur-history,
>
now-of-recognition, dialectical image."
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:31:21 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re:
no such thing
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970628171316_1621886613@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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you cant probly
see it in this poat but the subject heading" no such
thing" and
did the messages "no such thing" lined up on my screen...
which means
absoluteluy nothing by itself (for what are sreen lines and
rows anyhow)
But maybe there
IS such a think as a poet? like God?
from,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> there is no
such thing as a poet.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:33:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: God is neither true nor false
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I saw in a post
where it is said that God and science have been proven
false. I think our ideas of both may be proven
false, but you can not
prove either of
them to be false, except through science or faith.
It is all in the
way you look at it.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:48:13 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Beat core
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J. Stauffer
wrote:
> Does anyone
have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> restore some
minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> completely
evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> more Kozmic
Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness?
Just finished
reading Kerouac's 'Mexico City Blues'. It gets stronger as
you read it. I
have come to the conclusion that his Blues choruses must
be read drunk, or
with at least a buzz, the rhythms jump out easier. It
is also closer to
his state while writing them.
Anybody read Bob
Kaufman? he's a real character.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:01:33 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In a message
dated 97-06-28 01:48:31 EDT, you write:
<< But I
refuse to have my mind dictated to by anyone. >>
How about
dictating to you.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:08:07 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Role of the Poet
<<craps>>
Yes, I was the
Wesley Medical print shop while I was working my way through
college in 50s. I
printed couple of mags and chapbooks.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:19:34 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
S. Clay just sent
me a Poetry Flash with an interview of Allen Ginsberg by
Jack Foley. It
seems like the same interview over and over. I hadn't seen the
Poetry Flash
since it was a little rag in SF. Now it looks like a full-funded
governmental
morality speak Orwellian new age poetry and completely boring
official word
control thought police subsidized new-age time warp. I love SF,
but I would hate
to live in its literary environment especially among all
those SF poetry
munchkins whose thought waves never go beyond the city
lights.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 20:29:57 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Summer Reading Update
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Deer Beetles.
Some wonderful
suggestions have started to pour into my the Summer
Reading Project World
Head Quarters here by the dock of the Bay.
A Brief Synopsis
of Todays Respondents
Dave Breithaupt
offers
Jack K.--Desolation Angels and Big Sur
(easy to vote for this one, for
me)
WSB--Lunch or Place of Dead Roads
Di Prima--Memoirs of a Beat Chick (is
that right)
Hettie Jones, How I became HJ
Marie Countryman
weighed in for focusing on anniverseries and the
HST letters and suggested
"The Hells Angels" by HST
(which J Stauffer feels should be
paired with Freewheeling Franks book
told to M. McClure
Mr Neurdorff
mentioned Jack's "Mex City Blues" and Bob Kaufmann(Cranial
Guitar would make
a good starting point here.)
Maya, seemingly
concerned with ease of access suggests something from
The Beat Reader which she thinks
everyone has (I don't, but could)
Race is undecided
and wanting to check out his local library, good idea,
and the women's basketball league.
William Rose sent
a longer list.
Nicocia's Memory Babe
"Spontaneous Poetics
Holy Goof
Jack's Scattered poems.
Johnson's Minor Characters.
Diane voted for
Sax vs Mocassins. Someone else wondered
why this choice
of a
coupling. It arose earlier on the list
in a proposed debate
between Mr.
Plymell and Mr. Anastee in connection with a strong
quotation from a
reviewer on the comparative worth of the two b ooks.
Mr. Plymell wrote
a nice analysis of the two, a very nice piece on Sax
that is worth
looking up. Mr. Anastee as far as I know
has not had his
round. /And seems
to be silent on the list.
I am easy, most
of these sound good to me, with the caveat that I would
like to at least
see discussion center on the primary works rather than
scholarship or
biography which is useful as an adjunct to discussing
the works themselves.
Let's see if any
of these pick up steam. I love
especially the idea of
getting a number
of us reading and rereading a Big Sur or Mexico City
Blues, or a WSB
or the HST Angels book.
Maybe nobody
reads the way I do. I hope not. I currently am messing
around in the
following.
Dr. Sax
Little Men--by Kevin Killian who used
to make very helpful
appearances on the list and has
a book on Jack
Spicer coming out soon. Kevin
did a really fun play
about the painter Jay DeFeo at
the SF Art Institute
last fall.
The Lost Coast--by Steven
Nightngale--warmed over Nicholls so
far
Forever Wider--Charles Plymell.
Firewalk through Madness and Beyond the
Haldol Haze by David
Rhaesa
The Blood Countess by Robert Peters
Cranial Guitar--Bob Kaufmann.
I noodle around
with pieces of prose until one grabs me by the neck and
I finish it in a
rush. Poetry I almost always read in
bits and pieces.
I would love to
know what other people are reading, and get at least
thumbnail
reviews. This itself would make a good
thread.
When we did
Wichita Vortex it never really took off for long. Bill
Gargan wrote a
very nice thing on it, but it seemed to get everyone
focused on the
work we were doing, and that itself is a good thing.
Let's see where
the energy goes. I will gladly join any of my friends in
a good reading
project.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:30:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
I wrote:
<< But I
refuse to have my mind dictated to by anyone. >>
You wrote:
<<How about
dictating to you.>>
C. Plymell
I'm not sure, but
do I detect a note of sarcasm here?
<G>
My mind does
dictate to me, which is probably why it so dislikes others making
such attempts on
it. It is also responsible for telling
me when acts and
ideas don't
correlate. If there is one GREAT thing
the Beats did for us (and
certainly there
more than one), it was to give us back our minds,thoughts,
hearts - to wake
us up from our sheep-like stupor... to
pull us out of the
enervation with
which society continues to seek to control the masses... made
us see that the
rules were made by fallable men whose only interests were to
maintain their
positions of power and wealth... Is it
not then antithetical
to impose rules
on discussion? Were it not for the
endless discussions
between WSB,
Jack, Allen & Neal, et al, on topics of all sorts, I fear that
"Beat"
literature/mindset would never have developed to the point of
publication.
Therefore, I
suggest that, while we are all on this list due to a particular
attraction to
this lifestyle/psyche/literature (however one chooses to define
it), the right to
discuss that which is foremost on one's mind, so long as it
is not truly
offensive to anyone, is paramount to the entire notion of this
discussion group.
Ok, enough of my
moralizing... just had to get that off my chest. Really, I'm
not a boring
hack... and I promise to drop the subject, unless someone brings
it up to me
again... <grins>
Bon soir,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 05:37:27 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: god is neither true nor false - comment
MIME-Version: 1.0
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isn't God
something that by definition isn't proved, but felt and believed
in?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 05:42:20 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: gregory corso?
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today i read a
sentence by gregory corso which completely fascinated me. it
was in serbian
(my language), though, so i will roghly translate and i would
appreciate it if
somebody could tell me the original text. it goes something
like this: it is
not the same to die of a cobra bite and of spoiled pork (?)
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:37:00 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
Wow.. have you
been living in San Francisco recently??
I don't find the
envirnment any
more stifling than what I perceive to be going on elsewhere.
Yes there is
always chaff and sell-out in the literary world as well as in
every other art
medium, but I hardly think that SF need be indicted any more
than NY, Chicago
or any other city. SF's rather free
environment still
promotes some
very interesting and original expression...
And despite the New
Age pablum, much
that is quite viable goes on here.
Ciao, Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 20:46:48 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sherri wrote:
If there is one GREAT thing the Beats did for
us (and
> certainly
there more than one), it was to give us back our minds,thoughts,
> hearts - to
wake us up from our sheep-like stupor...
I don't remember
ever being in this stupor. Would you
even really want
to talk to
someone who was so out of it that it reading Burroughs,
Kerouac, Ginsberg
or Cassidy to realize there was a world out there?
The experience of
reading this stuff was to realize that there were more
than you thought
of your own kind out there.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:39:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false -
comment
isn't God
something that by definition isn't proved, but felt and believed
in?
ksenija
Ksenija... couldn't agree with you more!
Ciao,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:05:01 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false -
comment
Comments: To:
Ksenija Simic <ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ksenija Simic
wrote:
>
> isn't God
something that by definition isn't proved, but felt and believed
> in?
>
> ksenija
It depends on how
you look at it. I would say that either
you "know" or
you don't. What God is not is a crutch. She is the small still voice.
The male =
father, the female = spirit, the children = us. It's an old
myth that is
true, whether it happened or not. If you
feel it, you will
hear the spirit
rush, you will feel the living waters, and Bob Dylan
said if there is
a God it is the River, because it is the only thing
that is in the
mountains, going around the bend and at the ocean all at
the same
time. And well, I believe, I feel, but I
can not prove truth.
Ask Pilate, maybe
he would like a second chance. My
kingdom is not of
this mail
list! Feed the hungry, heal the sick,
visit those who are in
jail.
As
Steppenwolf/John Kay once said, "We've got to go from here to there,
eventually."
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 21:22:59 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: EXPLODING BEAT READING LIST AND MAO
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s.a. griffin's
idea of a Beat List Reading List and mine of a Beat List
Literary
Map. Writers listed under locale. Writer can appear in more
than one place,
but must have important tie to area, not just passing
through. I'll start with a very sketchy West Coast
portrait. The list
should
EXPLODE. feel free to add, delete, move,
etc. Needs to have
favorite titles
added somewhere
PORTLAND
Snyder, Gary
Welsh, Lew
Whalen, Phil
SAN FRANCISCO
Duncan, Robert
Spicer, Jack
Rexroth, Kenneth
Watts, Alan
Lamantia, Phillip
Kaufman, Bob
McClure, Michael
Snyder, Gary
Welsh, Lew
Whalen, Phil
Plymell, Charles
Reynolds, Frank
Kyger, Joanne
Kandel, Lenore
Micheline, Jack
LOS ANGELES
Lipton, Lawrence
Bukowski, Charles
Peters, Robert
griffin, s.a.
Selby, Herbert
Morrison, Jim
Huxley, Aldous
Kesey, Ken
SAN DIEGO
Gerlach, Fred
and on and on
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:50:35 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false -
comment LONG
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
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Sherri wrote:
>
> Beautifully
said, Bentz.
>
> God is the
one thread that runs through everything... and is everything and
> nothing,
simultaneously. How can that be proved
or disproved? The evidence
> seems
overwhelmingly in favor of this Spirit's existence... from Jung to
> Stephen
Hawking we have the constant acknowledgment that there is "life"
which
> goes beyond
that which science define.
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
Thank you. I live for the joy of knowing ONENESS and
call it God, but I
do not know the
name, only what rings true. I know that
God does not
boycott Disney
World or appear on the 700 Club. And think about it, if
he did, Pat
Robertson would probably have him arrested and taken off the
set. Hey, if God parks in the First Baptist Church
parking lot in
Columbia, SC, to
work out at the Y, they tow his car, why, because he is
not a member.
The Day God Got
Towed
Sherri wrote:
>
> Beautifully
said, Bentz.
>
> God is the
one thread that runs through everything... and is everything and
> nothing,
simultaneously. How can that be proved
or disproved? The evidence
> seems
overwhelmingly in favor of this Spirit's existence... from Jung to
> Stephen
Hawking we have the constant acknowledgment that there is "life"
which
> goes beyond
that which science define.
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
God was going to
work out at the y.
He saw a big
parking lot with 5 cars in it.
So, he pulled his
Explorer in and parked.
(He used to have
a Surbuban, but he changes brands every year.)
He was meeting
Zeus for a handball game and was late.
He missed the
sign that said, "This parking lot
is the property
of First Baptist Church. Non-member cars
will be towed
away at the owner's expense."
He wondered why
more people did not park there.
He noticed the
Church was LOCKED up tight.
Zeus parked two
blocks away, he read the sign.
Besides, Thor had
been towed a week before.
And Zeus hated
getting stuck with that bill.
(That was why
Zeus suggested that he and God play
for $35.00
tonight.)
Anyway, God,
scanned his Y card and the woman
Behind the desk
noticed his membership had expired.
He wrote a check,
but did not rejoin the health club.
Didn't have time
for the massages or the steam bath.
Besides, he
didn't feel right about the fact that
Miriam could not
use the health club.
Lucky for God,
Zeus was off his game and God won
the $35.00 bet.
Cause when he
went out side, his car was towed away.
Zeus laughed his
ass off.
God thought to
himself, "I have to remember to
give Hera a call
and tell her about that new girl
Zeus has been
seeing."
Anyway, it cost
God $35.00 to get his car back.
Years later, he
told the First Baptist Church,
"Depart from
me, I never knew you."
"And oh
yeah, Peter, get $35.00 from them before they
hit the
exit."
Zeus got in
trouble again with Hera.
And Thor didn't
get towed again,
But the City cops
put a boot
On his Firebird
because he didn't pay his
Parking
tickets. Zeus met the meter maid.
Then every thing
was cool again.
Zeus never did
win a handball game though.
Oh well, just a
thought. Not a Homer.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:56:38 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: god is neither true nor false-
corrective post
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
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Sorry I botched
the other post with the double quote.
Here is the work
of art by
itself. Delete it if you need it, or
keep it if you dare.
And it's just the
day God got towed.
>
> The Day God
Got Towed
>
> God was
going to work out at the y.
> He saw a big
parking lot with 5 cars in it.
> So, he
pulled his Explorer in and parked.
> (He used to
have a Surbuban, but he changes brands every year.)
> He was
meeting Zeus for a handball game and was late.
> He missed
the sign that said, "This parking lot
> is the
property of First Baptist Church.
Non-member cars
> will be
towed away at the owner's expense."
> He wondered
why more people did not park there.
> He noticed
the Church was LOCKED up tight.
> Zeus parked
two blocks away, he read the sign.
> Besides,
Thor had been towed a week before.
> And Zeus
hated getting stuck with that bill.
> (That was
why Zeus suggested that he and God play
> for $35.00
tonight.)
> Anyway, God,
scanned his Y card and the woman
> Behind the
desk noticed his membership had expired.
> He wrote a
check, but did not rejoin the health club.
> Didn't have
time for the massages or the steam bath.
> Besides, he
didn't feel right about the fact that
> Miriam could
not use the health club.
> Lucky for
God, Zeus was off his game and God won
> the $35.00
bet.
> Cause when
he went out side, his car was towed away.
> Zeus laughed
his ass off.
> God thought
to himself, "I have to remember to
> give Hera a
call and tell her about that new girl
> Zeus has
been seeing."
> Anyway, it
cost God $35.00 to get his car back.
> Years later,
he told the First Baptist Church,
> "Depart
from me, I never knew you."
> "And oh
yeah, Peter, get $35.00 from them before they
> hit the
exit."
> Zeus got in
trouble again with Hera.
> And Thor
didn't get towed again,
> But the City
cops put a boot
> On his
Firebird because he didn't pay his
> Parking
tickets. Zeus met the meter maid.
> Then every
thing was cool again.
>
> Zeus never
did win a handball game though.
>
> Oh well,
just a thought. Not a Homer.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:05:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: PS
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I know that Zeus
and Thor don't on the surface go together.
But, I just
happen to really
like the old Thor comic books by Marvel, so I used Thor
instead of a
Greek diety. Besides, I just lump
Jehovah on one side and
all the others on
the other.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:21:54 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
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Hello Charles,
I've been on the
road doing a few blues gigs and tied up with my old
friend Luther
Allison and ended-up writing an interview for him and
Alligator
Records. It'll come out before July 11 (he'll be playing
here on that
date). Pulse magazine interviewed me and I mentioned you
and AG. I'm not
sure if I'll be censored or not so I'll mail you the
original before
they fuck it up. Maybe the BEAT-L would like to see it.
Roxanne's been
taking care of the e-mail and caught your description of
peyote tasting
like bile out of the devil's asshole-man
we both agreed on
that one. I ate 6 buttons once and thought I seen
god and when I
looked again it was the neighbor kid doing it dog style
with his cousin
Mary. From that day forth, I accepted his cousin Mary
as my personal
savior.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:23:51 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
Comments: To:
stand666@bitstream.net
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R&R Houff
wrote:
>
> Hello
Charles,
>
> I've been on
the road doing a few blues gigs and tied up with my old
> friend
Luther Allison and ended-up writing an interview for him and
> Alligator
Records. It'll come out before July 11 (he'll be playing
> here on that
date). Pulse magazine interviewed me and I mentioned you
> and AG. I'm
not sure if I'll be censored or not so I'll mail you the
> original
before they fuck it up. Maybe the BEAT-L would like to see it.
> Roxanne's
been taking care of the e-mail and caught your description of
> peyote
tasting like bile out of the devil's asshole-man
> we both
agreed on that one. I ate 6 buttons once and thought I seen
> god and when
I looked again it was the neighbor kid doing it dog style
> with his
cousin Mary. From that day forth, I accepted his cousin Mary
> as my
personal savior.
>
> Richard
Houff
> Pariah Press
Richard:
Once, I looked
out the window of my bedroom. I think I
was 17 at the
time. I saw God, he was coming to earth, and he was
PISSED at all of
us. If you see him again, or even Mary, would you
ask him if there is
something we can
do to help him chill. I really don't
want to see him
again right
now. I am busy and seeing God tends to
disrupt one's life.
I know you and
Charles know what I mean. I mean we have
to see him at
the gate when we
check out, so, I figure, let's just get prepared or
something. In the meantime, I would like to read the
interview before
it gets
edited. Thanks. It'll give me something to do and take my
mind
off life in
general. Keep on keeping on. But you really ought to
change your
handle to stand777. You know 666 is an
encryption for the
Roman Emporers
that did a lot of evil things and it might be bad karma
to use that, but
then again, it might help you out in the long run.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:12:45 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: GO
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James Stauffer
wrote:
> Let's see
where the energy goes. I will gladly join any of my friends > in a
good reading project.
Sounds good.
Finished reading
John Clellon Holmes' "GO". Not very impressive. The
history behind
the book, its main characters, and publication make it a
good book for
nostalgic reasons. Published in 1952, 4 yrs before
Ginsberg, 5 yrs
before Kerouac's pop success. The characters included
Ginsberg,
Kerouac, Neal & one of his wives, Huncke (found on street by
Ginsberg in shit
state after much heroin), Holmes & wife, and many more
i could not
identify. It is written with 3rd person narration with
himself as one of
the characters, but i found the narration a little too
personal, too
rapt up in action, not enough separation. There is an
interesting
description of one of Ginsberg's Blakeian visions.
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:13:55 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: SPAIR OWS! <<ca ca>>
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the spare (us)
[[birds running
wildly]]
let it be, the
space between us
- beatle (george harrison)
-----------------------
don't have fear
this space between us
spare us
someting in conflict with
-th-e-ou-ter-rea-ache=s, ow!~
the outer reaches
(an
anthropologists report ::
deep from the heart of mother africa)
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 01:23:25 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: S.F. & Montreal
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I went down to
San Francisco for first time in December 1996, visited
what must be
visited, even performed at a couple of shows, and
thoroughly
enjoyed the pastel hills. If there was an American city to
live in, it would
be S.F. I'm from the other side of the continent:
Montreal - just
came back from Jazz Fest. Montreal is up there in places
to live . . . at
least in the summer (i think it is the city with the
most # of
festivals in the world . . . grooving to free outdoor show
while far in
background fireworks blast off from other festival . . .)
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:25:45 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706290538490255@msn.com>
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because the sky
is blue, that's why. Am listening to
this Beatle fest a
local radio
station is having. what fun. grew up on these folx. John,
George, Paul, and
Ringo wrote some rockin' beat poetry.
"Dr. Roberts your
a new bred of
man!"
and I always feel
like I'm running
never satisfied
to settle
neither in court
nor in person
too often by
email
and golden
moments stolen from videos
starring angelic
looking robber children
something has
been taken from me
and I wont rest
until I do
find that I must
find
gotta keep
running
Where is
everyone?
then is
phenomenal
oh, how I'm
feeling?
<<breathing,
breathing>>
and mary jane
doesn't hurt that much
not that much, a
few pains here and there
like my chest
heaving against my pillows
late night movies
on neighbors televisions
cars continuing
to shuffle on the nearby highway
and the
effervescent fridge, how that mean mother haunts me
continually,
continually, the headless horseman
riding to find
me, oh, running
oh, I must be
still, not act
no breathing, oh,
I must be dreaming
is that so? Is that so?
I say, can I have a witness?
<<horns
blowing>>
enjoying my
dinner, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:35:51 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: PS
In-Reply-To: <33B5ED08.E9BA234@scsn.net>
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At 10:05 PM -0700
6/28/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I know that
Zeus and Thor don't on the surface go together.
But, I just
> happen to
really like the old Thor comic books by Marvel, so I used Thor
> instead of a
Greek diety. Besides, I just lump
Jehovah on one side and
> all the
others on the other.
yes, and I bet
michael jordan could whup them all!
<<ha>> Will he ever
stop his climb
and enjoy the view from his perch?
"No, I'm just resting,"
he says
<<gatorade commercial>>. Is
he climbing Mt. Olympus?
the game within
the game. inspiration. his source.
<<....don't
on the surface go together>>
:: god has a surface???
really???? CAN YOU SEE IT???
I'm just seeing
stars over here... where do you live?
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:42:02 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: scholars of breathing
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ok word fiends,
beat literates, cut throad pirates::
does
<<laughing>> = <<breathing>>
or is laughing
something else, entirely? I guess there's
an exhale
involved, but
what do you call the sound it makes?
breathing always seems
to have a flow to
it. a calm feeling. laughing doesn't. but you breath a
lot when your
laughing, so the two must be connected.
some secret passway,
like the ones
janitors have between the ladies and the gents.
<<laugh>>
Douglas <<beating the god metaphor as hard as
he's got>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:01:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: PS
In-Reply-To: <33B5ED08.E9BA234@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:05 PM -0700
6/28/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I know that
Zeus and Thor don't on the surface go together.
sorry, but I just
had this crazy thought: god and zues are
going together?
What, are they
spending time in the closet together?
exchanging pleasant
nothings? I mean, when did they start seeing each
other? Does Jehovah
know? <<this is a tragedy!!>> Call a doctor! I think god must be a
woman!!??
<<%
100
percent
proof>>
Douglas <<getting off now>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 02:04:44 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: ginsberg link
Comments: cc:
vpaul@gwdi.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
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when upon ginsberg's passing. what brought me to this list.
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/fahrkle/collages/Various/Howl.html
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 08:24:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Update
In-Reply-To: <33B5D6B5.540F@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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just finished
fear and loathing in los vegas, forgot how wonderfully
raunchy it all
gets. am hopping on back of harley to join HST as he blasts
off with hells
angels-and then onto the fear&loathing letters vol. 1
i could also be
talked into doing the two kerouac novels as well.
other than that,
i've been reading small press and chapbooks of friends
works, not
readily available anywhere i dont think
my ability to
read has been waxing and waning (cursed) so lately i've been
writing. but must
haul head up out of own navel and discuss something
outside myself
with others.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:53:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
>
> I don't
remember ever being in this stupor.
Would you even really want
> to talk to
someone who was so out of it that it reading Burroughs,
> Kerouac,
Ginsberg or Cassidy to realize there was a world out there?
> The
experience of reading this stuff was to realize that there were
>more
> than you
thought of your own kind out there.
>
Absolutely, my
line of thought exactly. When I first
read Ginsberg, for
the first time in
my life, I knew that there was someone else out there
who thought like
I did and was actually writing about it.
That, of
course, led to
reading more beat lit, and realizing that there were lots
of other voices
speaking the same thoughts as my voice.
That is why this
list is so great,
because beyond what ever disagreements develop or
where ever the
the discussion takes us, we all know that deep down we are
connected my a common river of thought, many little streams that all
way in some way
are touching the same river.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:58:54 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
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runner911 wrote:
>
> and I always
feel like I'm running
> never
satisfied to settle
> neither in
court nor in person
>
> too often by
email
> and golden
moments stolen from videos
> starring
angelic looking robber children
>
> something
has been taken from me
> and I wont
rest until I do
> find that I
must find
> gotta keep
running
>
> Where is
everyone?
> then is
phenomenal
> oh, how I'm
feeling?
>
<<breathing, breathing>>
>
> and mary
jane doesn't hurt that much
> not that
much, a few pains here and there
> like my
chest heaving against my pillows
> late night
movies on neighbors televisions
> cars
continuing to shuffle on the nearby highway
> and the
effervescent fridge, how that mean mother haunts me
> continually,
continually, the headless horseman
>
> riding to
find me, oh, running
> oh, I must
be still, not act
> no
breathing, oh, I must be dreaming
>
> is that so? Is that so?
I say, can I have a witness?
>
<<horns blowing>>
>
> enjoying my
dinner, Douglas
> enjoying your thoughts, Douglas. Clarifies the runner911 sig a lot.
we are all running, breathing, dreaming,
living, I hope.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:16:53 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Update
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Marie,
I have fairly
foggy memories of the Hells Angels book, mostly the
account of the
Kesey party. As I mentioned you might
look at
"Freewheeling
Frank", by Frank Reynolds (as told to Michael McClure.)
Grove, 1967, have
no idea how available it is. Frank was
one of Angels
who was most
involved in the era in which the Angels were a part of the
SF hip scene. It's a fun read, less intentionally
sensational than
HST's book as I
remember it. Joanna McClure has a nice
little poem
about Frank.
James Stauffer
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> just
finished fear and loathing in los vegas, forgot how wonderfully
> raunchy it
all gets. am hopping on back of harley to join HST as he blasts
> off with
hells angels-and then onto the fear&loathing letters vol. 1
> i could also
be talked into doing the two kerouac novels as well.
> other than
that, i've been reading small press and chapbooks of friends
> works, not
readily available anywhere i dont think
> my ability
to read has been waxing and waning (cursed) so lately i've been
> writing. but
must haul head up out of own navel and discuss something
> outside
myself with others.
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:52:51 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: reminder
> I am seeking
collaborators for a 'Zine' project. It
will consist of the
> following:
>
> ---poetry,
poetic prose
> ---social
ciriticism
> ---sociology
of art and literature
> ---music and
book and film reviews
> ---artwork
(photos, drawings, paintings, ideas)
>
> The end
product will be printed on actual paper (remember that stuff?) in
> black and
white with color pages and real binding (not staples!!). I would
> like to work
on it this summer and print it in September, as I am leaving
> country
indefinitely in October.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:02:25 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Notice to all beetles: June 27th 1997
In-Reply-To: <33B615BE.2AA5@together.net>
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At 12:58 AM -0700
6/29/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> > Where
is everyone?
> > then is
phenomenal
> > enjoying your thoughts, Douglas. Clarifies the runner911 sig a lot.
> we are all running, breathing, dreaming,
living, I hope.
Well, I hope you
liked my typo, too!
<<laugh>>
the line should
have read:
> > Where
is everyone?
> > *this*
is phenomenal
but the mistake
made me think of someone Shapiro, an art history theorist,
who said
"let us not ask 'what is art', but '*when* is art!' " (or
something like
that).
And what does
your .sig "Diane Carter" mean?
I'll track down one of those
anagram links and
then we'll really see what you're made of.
And following
my train of
thought, <<bringing this back to the beats>>, what of all the
pseudonames used
by Ginsberg and Kerouac in their literature?
Anybody have
a list of em
handy? their inspiration?
<<oh, he
almost cried, when they asked if he knew his name...
-- david bowie (Ziggy Stardust)>>
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:05:41 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: JAMES/FRISCO/& BENTZ
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Hello James,
If you catch
Luther in Frisco you won't be disappointed-he'll be
playing a 1960
Les Paul (reissue). He tore up the 1995 Chicago Blues
Fest with that
same guitar. I don't think you'll find him at City
Lights-but I'm
willing to bet on the wharf-he loves his fish! Hey Bentz,
that's a pretty
wild handle I carry. My kids thought it would
be good
CYBERMOJO-it's good to be back and breathing.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:04:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: spare us
I DONT WANNA HEAR
ABOUT GOD ANYMORE
the bastard gets
far more attention than he deserves.
And as someone
already suggested, what are we, college freshmen? Staying up
late in the dorm
hallway, thinking we're SO DEEP and the fate of the world
rests with
us? Jeesus Christ. I am coming to the conclusion that there are
some things that
should be thought but not articulated.
This may be one
of them.
---maya <<sighing>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:17:13 -0000
Reply-To: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
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Beat Friends
& Philosophers:
What's the problem, Maya? How can he be such a bastard if he really
exists? The problem, as I see it, is simple: too many people claim to
have the goods on
him, yet no one lives like they do. . .
A few posts ago, someone (forgive me,
my itchy delete finger got the best
of me) said our
buddy Nietzche proved him dead a long time ago, well, I did
read the book,
and Nietzche did no such proving. All
Nietzche did was make
a declaration and
then live by it. I wish more people
would do the same,
meaning, I wish
people would say something and then live up to it.
I can think of plenty of things that
get too much play, but God or the
lack of (in
whatever form he/she does/doesn't exist) should be talked about
a hell of a lot
more than it is, especially here.
Who gives a shit what does or doesn't
make a poet. We'll sit here till
the cows come
home debating that one, but God, well now, he gets too much
time on the old
Beat-L, let's not talk about him anymore.
Fuck that.
Thinking himself
SO DEEP,
Bruce
... Sin strongly.
--Martin Luther
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:24:51 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Philip Lamantia(?)
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Poetry by Philip Lamantia (?)
The real stuff.
Small presses.
(Mostly.)
Big thoughts.
Some with
punctuation.
some without
All in love with
language.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:34:00 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <199706292017.QAA25284@everest>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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yo, homeboy!
lets get off all
this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
talking about
some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
(a very broad
hint from a bear of little brain)
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:31:10 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: wrong
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friends
apologies, i push the wrong button, ---Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:58:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: two beats in one state meet
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hi all. i dont
want to make this into chatroom city, but did want to tell
you all that
diane carter (my editor from mad magazine and journalist in
her own write)
and i met for lunch. and diane kept her lunch down after
being assaulted
verbally by my own recordings of my recent pomes. that's
bein in the
trenches let me tell you. and a perceptive ear as well as a
comely eye,
diane.
thanks
leon, you were
right all along!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:30:24 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: restless farewell
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dearest
Beat-lovers,
It's been an
interesting season of happening on this here list, sad
occurances,
battles, vibes, happy thoughts, pomes, community almost.
(This is not a
literature post!)
I'm going on the
road tommorrow, gonna be spending the summer mostly on
the Carolina
beaches. I just wanted to say to everyone on this list that
i've enjoyed the
"company," to say the least this list beats the hell
outa the evening
news, and to say a little more i've learned alot hear.
To all the
aspiring and perspiring and inspiring poets of the list: keep
up the work!
To all the members
old and new: keep the list REAL!
There have been
countless words of wisdom, intentional accidental shared
saved deleted,
here over these lonely wires, from everybody and everyone,
even the watchful
eyes of the lurkers can sumtimes be felt pounding thru
the screen.
Glad to have been
an (in)active witness. I sall be rejoining the list in
the fall as a
collegiate. if any brain cells survive the summer, that is.
"Goodbye
momma and poppa
goodbye jack and
jill
the grass aint
greener, the wine aint sweeter
either side of
the hill" -- the dead
from,
Eric Sapp
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
"everybody's
holy!" -- Ginsberg
"we'll hold
hands and then we'll
watch the sun
rise
from the bottom
of the sea" -- Jimi Hendrix
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 06:18:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: spare us
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
> mc
OK, I' going to
sum up my view of the god/poet debate with this poem from
Allen Ginsberg
from Cosmopolitan Greetings.
Proclamation
I am the King of
the Universe
I am the Messiah
with a new dispensation
Excuse me I
stepped on a nail.
A mistake
Perhaps I am not
the Capitalist of Heaven
Perhaps I'm a
gate keeper snoring
beside the Pearl Columns--
No this isn't true,
I really am God himself.
Not at all
human. Don't associate me
w/that Crowd
In any case you
can believe every word
I say.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:46:05 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
WOO HOO
Bruce! Couldn't have put it better myself!
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bruce W. Hartman, Jr.
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 9:17 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
Beat Friends
& Philosophers:
What's the problem, Maya? How can he be such a bastard if he really
exists? The problem, as I see it, is simple: too many people claim to
have the goods on
him, yet no one lives like they do. . .
A few posts ago, someone (forgive me,
my itchy delete finger got the
best
of me) said our
buddy Nietzche proved him dead a long time ago, well, I did
read the book,
and Nietzche did no such proving. All
Nietzche did was make
a declaration and
then live by it. I wish more people
would do the same,
meaning, I wish people
would say something and then live up to it.
I can think of plenty of things that
get too much play, but God or the
lack of (in
whatever form he/she does/doesn't exist) should be talked about
a hell of a lot
more than it is, especially here.
Who gives a shit what does or doesn't
make a poet. We'll sit here
till
the cows come
home debating that one, but God, well now, he gets too much
time on the old
Beat-L, let's not talk about him anymore.
Fuck that.
Thinking himself
SO DEEP,
Bruce
... Sin strongly.
--Martin Luther
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:10:47 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
> mc
Marie:
If Jack wrote
because we are all going to die. If we
deny we are going
to die. And if we made up god because we are all
going to die. Then
literature is
about we are all going to die. God is
about we are all
going to
die. Beat is about we are all going to
die. It is all about
the same
thing. It is the same thing. god = literature = poets =
nothing = dog (if
you're dyslexic) = beat-l. What do you
want to talk
about? I am thinking that lit-er-a-chure is very
very personal. I am
thinking that as
my cyber pen pal charles plymell once said, I think I
am going to take
a real shit. That will be real. It is not personal.
And it will be
shared with all the alligators down in the sewer. I
guess gravity's rainbow
can help us tell shit from shinola, but which
yo-yos are going
to catch the alligators that live down in a all the
real personal
shit we send down the tube every day.
Have you ever
worshipped a
white porcelain god? I have. It is one way to know the
wrath of god
close up. You always make a lot of
promises you never keep
too. I wonder if allen, jack, neal, charles,
harold, lawrence, ann,
anias, phillip,
gary, gary, etc ever WASTED time talking about god? or
religion? If so, why can't we?
Maybe I just
don't get it. If so, please explain it
to me back channel.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:03:04 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Luther Allison
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Richard,
Got my ticket and
going up to the city in a few minutes.
Luther is
playing Great
American Music Hall which is a nice venue.
Looking
forward to
hearing that Les Paul rip.
James
R&R Houff
wrote:
>
> Hello James,
>
> If you catch
Luther in Frisco you won't be disappointed-he'll be
> playing a
1960 Les Paul (reissue). He tore up the 1995 Chicago Blues
> Fest with
that same guitar. . .
>
> Richard
Houff
> Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 17:14:05 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: EXPLODING BEAT READING LIST AND MAO
MIME-Version: 1.0
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s.a. griffin
wrote:
>
> At 09:22 PM
6/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >s.a.
griffin's idea of a Beat List Reading List and mine of a Beat List
> >Literary
Map. Writers listed under locale. Writer can appear in more
> >than one
place, but must have important tie to area, not just passing
>
>through. I'll start with a very
sketchy West Coast portrait. The list
> >should
EXPLODE. feel free to add, delete, move,
etc. Needs to have
> >favorite
titles added somewhere
> >
> >PORTLAND
> >
> >Snyder,
Gary
> >Welsh,
Lew
> >Whalen,
Phil
> >
> >SAN
FRANCISCO
> >
> >Duncan,
Robert
> >Spicer,
Jack
> >Rexroth,
Kenneth
> >Watts,
Alan
>
>Lamantia, Phillip
> >Kaufman,
Bob
> >McClure,
Michael
> >Snyder,
Gary
> >Welsh,
Lew
> >Whalen,
Phil
> >Plymell,
Charles
>
>Reynolds, Frank
> >Kyger,
Joanne
> >Kandel,
Lenore
>
>Micheline, Jack
> >Kesey,
Ken
Ferlinghetti,
Lawrence
CENTRAL COAST
Miller, Henry
Patchen, Kenneth
> >
LOS ANGELES
> >
> >Lipton,
Lawrence
>
>Bukowski, Charles
> >Peters,
Robert
> >griffin,
s.a.
> >Selby,
Herbert
>
>Morrison, Jim
> >Huxley,
Aldous
> Scibella,
Tony
> Thomas, John
> Rios, Frank
T.
> Long,
Philomene
> Wannberg,
Scott
> Maybe, Ellyn
> Abee, St
> >
> >
> >SAN
DIEGO
> >
> >Gerlach,
Fred (a great 12 string player, only San Diegan I could think of)
Someone needs to
do the midwest.
> >
> >
> >and on
and on
> >
> >James
Stauffer
> >
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:14:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 4:10 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
> mc
Marie:
If Jack wrote
because we are all going to die. If we
deny we are going
to die. And if we made up god because we are all
going to die. Then
literature is
about we are all going to die. God is
about we are all
going to
die. Beat is about we are all going to
die. It is all about
the same
thing. It is the same thing. god = literature = poets =
nothing = dog (if
you're dyslexic) = beat-l. What do you
want to talk
about? I am thinking that lit-er-a-chure is very
very personal. I am
thinking that as
my cyber pen pal charles plymell once said, I think I
am going to take
a real shit. That will be real. It is not personal.
And it will be
shared with all the alligators down in the sewer. I
guess gravity's
rainbow can help us tell shit from shinola, but which
yo-yos are going
to catch the alligators that live down in a all the
real personal
shit we send down the tube every day.
Have you ever
worshipped a
white porcelain god? I have. It is one way to know the
wrath of god close
up. You always make a lot of promises
you never keep
too. I wonder if allen, jack, neal, charles,
harold, lawrence, ann,
anias, phillip,
gary, gary, etc ever WASTED time talking about god? or
religion? If so, why can't we?
Maybe I just
don't get it. If so, please explain it
to me back channel.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Thank you Bentz.
Maybe the
suggestion should be: if you don't like
the book don't read it...
doesn't mean the
book isn't worthwhile for others. I
don't think that because
I'm not
particularly interested in something (or even think something's not
fit to wipe my
ass for that matter) no one else should be.... and god forbid
that I should
ever try to stuff someone else's self-expression (outside of
that which is
harmful to any form of life... for Spirit is the anima, the
constant, the
thread... god has anyone here read Jung's Aion?) regardless of
my opinion of
it. If I don't like it I'll ignore it,
not engage....
By the way, I may
be wrong, but I always thought that the very act of
publishing a work
of literature was to open the collective conciousness to
something,
because someone needed/wanted to get something very personal out
there for others
to experience/feel/discuss....
for what it's
worth,
Sherri
love_singing@msn.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 21:45:59 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
In a message
dated 97-06-29 01:36:20 EDT, you write:
<< I've
been on the road doing a few blues gigs and tied up with my old
friend Luther Allison and ended-up writing an
interview for him and
Alligator Records. It'll come out before July
11 (he'll be playing
here on that date). Pulse magazine interviewed
me and I mentioned you
and AG. I'm not sure if I'll be censored or
not so I'll mail you the
original before they fuck it up. >>
Richard,
Thanks. I been
wondern' who happen to ya. I wuz about to net you. Dibn't know
you were on Bad
Blues Road. Been listening to Big Joe Turner's lyrics. "
Please Mr.
Johnson, don't play the blues so sad."
Good hearing from
you. Maybe the Beat-L would be interested in the interview,
too.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:52:40 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter
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Subject: Kerouac names (was notice to all beetles)
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runner711 wrote:
>what of all
the
> pseudonames
used by Ginsberg and Kerouac in their literature? Anybody
>have
> a list of em
handy? their inspiration?
I just bought The
Portable Jack Kerouac and it has a two-page identity
key, too complex
to type at the moment. There have been
other threads on
this topic that
you could check out in the beat-l archive, if it
interests
you. The most interesting thing to me
though was in Ann
Charters
introduction, where she writes, "Kerouac enjoyed making large
claims for what
he was attempting to achieve in his Legend of Duluoz, but
thinking about
his writing in grandiose terms came naturally to him. He
created his
three-syllable pseudonym 'Duluoz' in 1942, when he was barely
twenty years
old. This was a decade before he began
writing the books
that comprise the
Legend of Duluoz. Kerouac invented his
pseudonym after
encountering the
name 'Stephen Dedalus,' created by James Joyce for his
protagonist in
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, which Kerouac read
after he dropped
out of Columbia College and worked briefly as a sports
reporter for his
hometown newspaper. According to his
journals and a
poem in 'Richmond
Hill Blues'(1953), Kerouac noticed a story in the
Lowell Sun about
a local man named 'Daoulas,' and he later played around
with several
variations on it, like 'Dalouas,' 'Dalous,' and 'Duouoiz,'
before settling
on 'Duluoz.'"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:01:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
In a message
dated 97-06-29 00:24:43 EDT, you write:
<< I love the place, but these guys
don't see past their own navels. >>
When I was there
they were looking for their navels. There is strange sense
there and
everywhere of fragmentation. I was just
raving about the uncanny
commercial aspect
of the way Poetry Flash presented the soul of SF as well as
our current
poetry milieu. Just wanted to see if anyone was listening.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:19:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Charles Plymell Hwy & God
In a message
dated 97-06-29 01:39:17 EDT, you write:
<< You know
666 is an encryption for the
Roman Emporers that did a lot of evil things
and it might be bad karma
to use that, but then again, it might help you
out in the long run.
>>
How many Karmas
since the Roman Empire?
I'll tell you
many just since the word was hip
has to do with
Ginsbergs, too--long a story for
now, sell a
Karma/ Moloch got you.
Chemical euphoria
eats the Poetry Flash paper!
Pegasus
electrified in red
below the great
signs shining
on the
horizon...MOBIL
for travelers of
the new dark ages
with
superstitions, icons, symbols
talk of prophets,
karma, golden rule
and all that old
horseshit jazz
in a system that
only eats its
younger
generations who always
catch on about
the time they're swallowed
while reading the
new morality speak
in the New York
Times.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
GO
I've never read
GO. I'll take your recommendation under consideration.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:30:47 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In a message
dated 97-06-29 15:15:41 EDT, you write:
<< I DONT
WANNA HEAR ABOUT GOD ANYMORE >>
Thank you Jeazus
and Bubba Buddha too.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:38:39 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
literature.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:58:42 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
This is true....
but are you assuming that cuz we're talkin bout god that it's
the simplistic
Biblical one? I for one can't accept
that one dimensional
model... However, I have known Christians who do read
and have a much more
expanded view on
this subject than the sheep-like majority...
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 7:38 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
literature.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:08:24 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <l03020900afdc3eb5a63c@[206.25.67.104]>
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At 1:34 PM -0700
6/29/97, Marie Countryman wrote:
> yo, homeboy!
> lets get off
all this personal crap and in front of god and all, lets
> talking
about some <gasp> lit-er-a- chure!!!!
> (a very
broad hint from a bear of little brain)
yes, have beat on
god enough this past week. feel better
now. still
thinking of his
words, though, remembering how they touched me.
Grateful
to Diane for her
consistent clarifications, my feeble replies, and the many
friends I've
discovered in the process. but yes,
enough. the seven days
are up. but for the inspiration, the edge he
provided,
:-)
<<god>>
well, you know
what I mean. thank you.
> mc
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:05:56 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: Re: spare us
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Bruce W.
Hartman, Jr. wrote:
> >
> > Beat
Friends & Philosophers:
> >
> > What's the problem, Maya? How can he be such a bastard if he really
> >
exists? The problem, as I see it, is
simple: too many people claim to
> > have
the goods on him, yet no one lives like they do. . .
> > A few posts ago, someone (forgive me,
my itchy delete finger got the
best
> > of me)
said our buddy Nietzche proved him dead a long time ago, well, I did
> > read
the book, and Nietzche did no such proving.
All Nietzche did was make
> > a
declaration and then live by it. I wish
more people would do the same,
> >
meaning, I wish people would say something and then live up to it.
> > I can think of plenty of things that
get too much play, but God or
the
> > lack of
(in whatever form he/she does/doesn't exist) should be talked about
> > a hell
of a lot more than it is, especially here.
> > Who gives a shit what does or doesn't
make a poet. We'll sit here
till
> > the
cows come home debating that one, but God, well now, he gets too much
> > intime
on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about him anymore. Fuck that.
> >
> >
Thinking himself SO DEEP,
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > ... Sin
strongly.
> > --Martin Luther
> well
actually i give a shit what makes a poet
and i don't give a shit
> about the
christian god concept except possibly as something to compare
> to other, to
my eyes, more benign dieties and fables, and i was really
> bored while
deleting a lot of the recent posts which isn't that big a
> deal but if
you need to talk about god a whole lot may a special god
> list, i
really enjoy talking about beat literatures, characters,
> folklore and
related items.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:17:26 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Pulse interview (UNCENSORED)
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PULSE MAGAZINE / HOLLY DAY INTERVIEWS RICHARD D. HOUFF/ June 6, 1997
HOLLY: Names of books you've written/published.
RICHARD: The first actual collection of poems that was
published in
book form, was
called: "IF IT SHOULD RAIN," which had a page count of
120. The two
follow-up collections: "STREET POEMS" / & "STATION 62"
were
released as a two
volume package consisting of 248 pages. All three
books were
published in France by Louis Giroux Editions, of Paris, a now
defunct
publishing house. Some of the poems from "STREET," were
bootlegged into
the former Soviet Union, along with
excerpts from a
novel I wrote
back in the '70's, called "TRIP: AN LSD ADVENTURE." The
novel, was also
published in France under the Giroux imprint and became
an underground
mainstay for a number of years. The nice thing about
choosing Europe
as a publishing venture came about through friends who
for whatever
reason, remained in Europe because of the literary
community. The
media and the age of electronics was in its infancy
state. In other
words people still purchased and read books versus the
latest video game
or tickets to "Disney World." Europe was still a clean
place to
publish=97of course that is rapidly changing, the "Golden Arches=
"
mentality has
arrived so it's only a matter of time. I got involved at a
good time and I'm
thankful. During the 80's I was submitting to European
mags almost
exclusively and several volumes of short stories were
published at this
time. Having established somewhat of a track record
"over
there," I decided to try my hand at submitting manuscripts on
American soil and
have had 4 volumes of poetry published: "AFTER HOURS,"
was a cooperative
venture with Poor People & Poets Press, of Chicago=97no=
w
defunct,
"PERPLEXITIES OF TAKING ALTERNATE ROUTES," was published in a
cheap edition
from Bootleg Press, and wasn't one of my best efforts. A
failure in
experimentation is what I would call it at this point. My
next book
"USED SHOES" from Roving Anvil Press was a real success story
for me, and the
response was very positive. Tom Clark, passed it around
Berkeley and
faculty at New College, and was very supportive. For
poetry, three
printings is=97and was quite remarkable. My Latest book
Exit(s) has been
well received on the W. Coast as well=97but it won't
enjoy three
printings I'm sure. Outside of the above, there have been 12
or 14 chaps
published that I really don't count. At best, you give them
away for free.
I've never taken them seriously unless they're hand
stitched and
letter- press quality=97I only have a few that fit that mold.
HOLLY: When did you start writing seriously (not
necessarily
professionally)
and what prompted you to start?
RICHARD: Back in '67 (Summer Of Love) I started
writing small poems and
journal entries.
I was a hungry kid living in one dollar a night hotels
in and around
downtown Mpls. Many of them=97if not all, have been knocked
down=97fewer
places for the homeless to call home. At the time, I=20
was damn glad to
have a roof over my head. What prompted me to become a
writer was the
City Lights edition of Kenneth Patchen's, "Love Poems." A
childhood friend,
Roger Kiemele put it in my hands back in '64 or
'65=97can't
remember. All I know, is that I could sense and feel Patchen'=
s
love and his
rage. I could identify with his poverty and felt alone in
an adult world
where I was the enemy. Sometimes, I still feel this
way=97especially
around suits and ties, a general mistrust.
HOLLY: When did you start getting your writing
published, and what
prompted you to
do so? Did you know any other people at the time
publishing their
work that might have influenced you to do so?
RICHARD: My first
published piece was a small poem back in '67. I think
Cid Corman picked
it up for Origin. When I was a kid, I never thought of
keeping records.
I was more concerned about making some money. Survival
was for whatever
reason, an important fact of life for me. Beneath the
"Reichean
body armor," there was a hopeless romantic that wanted out.
Maybe that would
explain the importance of survival=97curiosity? At the
time, I was
really afraid to let people know that I was writing at
all=97and
especially poetry. The middle sixties was divided into camps an=
d
kids still used
their fists to settle up. If I would've even hinted
poetry, rest
assured, my face would've been pounded
with faggot
accusations
coming from all sides. I left home for good when I was 15
yrs old and never
looked back. In answer to your question of what the
motivating factor
of getting work published was=97for me, at that time
was/and still is
quite complex. The need to connect was always a factor
and making some
"quick" money. You sell a story=97you eat and keep your
head above water.
=20
HOLLY: Who/what have been some of the major
influences in your life?
When I was 13 yrs
old, I read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Coming
from a small
slaughterhouse town, this single book completely altered my
life for the
better=97one of the main reasons for leaving home. Reading
"Hunger"
by Knut Hamsun, Sherwood Anderson, Richard Wright, and
Steinbeck were
all childhood influences. I was a voracious reader=97a
habit that's still with me. Discovering the 19 th.
C. French romantics
was a breath of
fresh air that kept my sanity in-check. Of course,
loosing it with
Apollinaire, Breton, Cendrars, Celine, and the endless
list wasn't half
bad. A lot of people seem to think Bukowski was an
influence on my
later stages of development which isn't the case. Buk
was an early
friend from '69 up till his death. We were being published
in the same
mimeos in and around L.A. I was writing
juvenile articles
on the joys of
doing acid and would sign a different name each week.
When we first met
he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
After awhile, I
would show up at his place (usually stoned) with some
beer. He would
drink it and then throw me out. I would just laugh and
eventually we
became friends=97a very slow process, I might add. When Cit=
y
Lights released
Charles Plymell's, "The Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
was totally blown
away. Here was a man that spoke to my soul and had
been thru similar
hells. It was like discovering the "big brother" I
always wanted. I
met Allen Ginsberg in '72, and he turned me onto some
of the Beat
writers, but I always returned to Plymell as a Beat
source=97he had
the edge that seemed to be lacking in other writers at th=
e
time.
HOLLY: What was the stupidest thing (or one of the
stupidest things)
you ever did?
RICHARD: Growing up poor had its disadvantages and
advantages. If you
wanted to look
nice, have a set of wheels, money, and the other niceties
denied to the
poor; you became a thief. In our town you could work like
a dog for shitty
wages=97not counting the abuse from "the Boss," and the
community in
general; or you could just say fuck-it and skim from the
top. We had a
code of honor: "Never steal from the poor working stiff or
your own
neighborhood. Steal from the rich and spread the booty ala
Robin Hood, and
keep the rest!" Okay, now that I've justified my devious
ways=97here goes:
The stupidest thing I did was get talked into breaking
into a farm
implements store and using a 1954 Ford, Flathead 6 cylinder,
3 speed manual with
a top-end of only 60 miles per hour, as the getaway
car. The car
belonged to my older brother and we had switched the
license plates
(the only smart thing we did). To make a long story
short, we botched
the job and we were chased by an Iowan constable
driving a pickup
on gravel roads. Being country, all us kids had
shotguns and
squirrel rifles. I happened to have a 16 gauge in the back
so I shot the
guys radiator and that was the end of the chase. We made
it across the
border into Minnesota and hid the car in a friends garage.
I wasn't
concerned about the guy being hurt; I knew that he would be
okay. What
bothered me was the fact that I pulled a gun on a cop and
could've landed
in some major trouble. Now that would qualify me as a
stupid bastard=97live
and learn. I wised up with time, but the kids with
me on that night
would be dead within several years of that particular
incident. I guess
they didn't learn.
HOLLY: Have you ever been hit so hard you shit
yourself (standard
question I ask=97just
to see if anyone else has had this experience)?
RICHARD: I have taken many blows in my time and delved
out as much and
then some. I have
been knocked off my feet twice; once by a refrigerator
door, and once by
a guys fist. I've been told that the guy who put me
down stood at
6'10 with a weight of 300 or more pounds=97no fat. I can't
remember much
about the incident other than 3 weeks after the fact
someone had put a
bullet thru his head. Apparently, he bullied the wrong
guy. They say
that he liked picking out the "intoxicated" for punching
bag practice.
However, in answer to your question about shitting my
pants, it hasn't
happened as yet.
HOLLY: Anything else you might like to add, maybe a
pitch for Heeltap
or your
anthology?
RICHARD: Well, I am happy to report that the first
issue of Heeltap
sold out before
it hit the shelves. I distributed nationally and the
reviews are still
rolling along with some excellent feedback. "Scorched
Hands: An
Anthology Of Verse & Rage," took a year to complete. I
assembled five to
six generations of poets from all walks of life, and
threw them under
the same cover. From the well known to the obscure=97and
it worked! I was
able to recover costs without shelf sales, and to date;
have sold over a
thousand copies. Shelf sales on the W. Coast and E.
Coast have been
steady, and you can obtain copies off the web as well at
various book
sites. I haven't distributed on the local level. Locally,
the buying public
has a rather conservative majority especially in
regards to
poetry. However, if people are interested in obtaining a
copy, it can be
ordered thru your local independent booksellers=97not too
many of them
left. I would also like to point out, this work is
uncensored as is
all Pariah Press titles=97including the magazine Heeltap.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:18:54 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
> literature.
> C. Plymell
Hell Charles,
they don't read it, they burn it. I
often why I keep
hanging on to this
religion. I mean, ask what's her name in
Alexandria.
They burned her
library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
Christians just
don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
I hope my church
never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
uneasy truce at
best.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:18:42 -0000
Reply-To: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr."
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
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> > well
actually i give a shit what makes a poet
and i don't give a shit
> > about
the christian god concept except possibly as something to compare
> > to
other, to my eyes, more benign dieties and fables, and i was really
> > bored
while deleting a lot of the recent posts which isn't that big a
> > deal
but if you need to talk about god a whole lot may a special god
> > list, i
really enjoy talking about beat literatures, characters,
> >
folklore and related items.
Patricia, and
other Beat Friends,
Why do you assume that my god is the
hell-fire and brimstone god of
Christian
lore? To be honest, I haven't got a
clue. . . I've been pelted
with every image
imaginable, two or three time over, and each time I find
something I
detest about each one. I'm sick and
tired of the fast-food
style of
spirituality that people seem to believe in nowadays. . .
"I'll have a god combo number two,
hold the pickle and the commitment."
"Would you like a hot apple pie
with that, sir?"
I can just write off the almighty like
the few of you would like me to. I
can't believe
there's no room for god (or your preferred moniker here) on
the Beat-L. What about the spiritual side of the
Beats? Jack spent a good
part of his life
either running to find god, or running away from him once
he found him.
Suddenly I'm talking about god a whole
lot. . . I don't think so. Since
when does a post
asking for clarification of a statement like "god has been
proven dead"
constitute "a whole lot"?
Spare ME.
Go ahead, hit me with the stand-by:
"Spirituality is relative. . ." so
what's the point
of me going on about it here? I'm tired
of relativity,
relativity is
bullshit, relativity is an excuse people use so they don't
have to confront
whatever it is they think is so damn relative.
If you don't like what I have to say,
use the delete button. . .
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:18:52 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: tying it all together
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Hello again.
This discussion
list is wonderfull. I've been on many a
mailing list
only to see it
destroyed by ignorance and I'm excited to see the level of
intelligent
conversation here!
Many of you have
asked, "how can science be disproven?"
For example...
the earth is not flat -- easy
but do you know
that many of Newton's 'LAWS' of physics only apply to a
limited number of
constants and that they are innaccurate in others...
that's where we
get the genius of Einstein who was so nice as to fill in
the blanks.
Science is just
another way man can justify things he can't honestly
explain. Just like many religions. The problem with science and
religion (GOD) is
that the fundamental basics are unexplainable and
beyond
comprehension... hell, most of the time they are based on guesses
or less.
****************
>Who puts the
poem or prose to the true test--
>is it
art? The reader, the critic, the writer?
>DC
While I believe
there are some mystical qualifications for being a poet,
it doesn't take
much to become a critic. The basic act
of breathing once
released from the
womb qualifies, I think... Beats, especially Ginsberg,
Kerouac and
Ferlinghetti really challenged the question of "what is art?"
Allen Ginsberg,
as you know, faced art v. obscenity -- along with
Ferlinghetti, but
also re-opened art in literature for many people. For
so long American
writing has been stale and without vision!
Allen
Ginsberg is the
atomic bomb at the center of it all.
Quote me on that...
Allen Ginsberg
scared people -- he made them think
Ginsberg forced
you to experience life rather than walk
the planet in
shell of flesh
waiting to die.
Atomic Allen
Ginsberg, unlike his nuclear Russia, exploded!
I know why Allen
Ginsberg loved Walt Whitman. They both
loved life.
They injected
life into poetry and made it beautiful again.
Poets to Come
- Walt Whitman
"Poets to
come! orators, singers, musicians to come!
Not to-day is to
justify me and answer what I am for,
But you, a new
brood, native, athletic, continental, greater than before
known,
Arouse! For you must justify me.
I myself but
write one or two indicative words for the future,
I but advance a
moment only to wheel and hurry back in the darkness.
I am a man who,
sauntering along without fully stopping, turns a casual
look upon you and then averts his face,
Leaving it to you
to prove and define it,
Expecting the
main things from you."
Walt Whitman...
the granddaddy-beat. These men injected
innovation into
a tired system of
unmotivated and unchanging FORMS. Life
without
innovation is
worthless!!!! Ferlinghetti with the unorthodox spatiality
of poetry and
lord, the SUBJECTS are divine. Jack with
a real story to
read... who cares
about CONVENTIONS?! and beatific Allen raining life,
pride and love on
all of us.
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:49:32 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Names(was notice to all
beetles)
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> According to his journals and a
>poem in
'Richmond Hill Blues'(1953), Kerouac noticed a story in the
>Lowell Sun
about a local man named 'Daoulas,' and he later played around
>with several
variations on it, like 'Dalouas,' 'Dalous,' and 'Duouoiz,'
>before
settling on 'Duluoz.'"
>DC
Or it could be
French/Canadian for 'Jack the Louse'
I honestly don't
think Jack put too terribly much thought into selection
of names for
characters. Gregory Corso = Raphael
Urso... It seems to me
like he used real
names to inspire alias and nothing else... Desolation
Angels makes that
pretty clear to me, but I'd be interested in hearing
more about 'Sal
Paradise'
BTW Was Memere's
maiden name Rioux?? My grandmother's maiden name is
Rioux. If anyone with Kerouac geneology info could
email me, I'd
appreciate it.
Very rooted in frenchcanadiannortheast,
Chris Dumond.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:08:51 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: chicago
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hi everybody,
i'm travelling to
chicago this week (won't you please come to chicago noone
else can take
your place - C,S,N&Y). i've never been there. is there
something really
worth doing there?
also, where can i
find the recordings of the poetry readings by kerouac and
ginsberg?
thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:15:11 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: tying it all together
In-Reply-To: <33B6A70C.7C56@erols.com>
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At 11:18 AM -0700
6/29/97, Walt Whitman wrote:
> I myself but
write one or two indicative words for the future,
> I but
advance a moment only to wheel and hurry back in the darkness.
> I am a man
who, sauntering along without fully stopping, turns a casual
> look upon you and then averts his
face,
> Leaving it
to you to prove and define it,
> Expecting
the main things from you."
<<lurker
mode on>> Douglas <<keep up
good work!!>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:18:11 -0500
Reply-To: Leo Jilk <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leo Jilk <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <33B7259E.5EC0596B@scsn.net>
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>Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>>
>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>
literature.
>> C.
Plymell
>Hell Charles,
they don't read it, they burn it. I
often why I keep
>hanging on to
this religion. I mean, ask what's her
name in Alexandria.
>They burned
her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>uneasy truce
at best.
>
Thinking of
holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
behind.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:56:19 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Whitman
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Chris wrote:
> Walt
Whitman... the granddaddy-beat.
Reading
"Leaves of Grass" is like reading the Baghavad-Gita. However,
much of his
democratic optimism and lust for future potential has been
brought down by
20th century reality. That's o.k. - all the more reason
to read more
Whitman. Poems to read: "Song of Myself" - "Song of the
Open Road" -
"I Sing the Body Electric" - etc.
Here's a short
piece that i use, written by the Good Grey Poet:
TO YOU [line
structure may be off]
Stranger, if you
passing meet me desire to speak to me
why should you
not speak to me?
and why should I
not speak to you?
Joseph Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:19:59 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<poetry
provides many answers>>
Diane, gave away
my di prima book, so instead I have patti smith.
hopefully she
will pass this list's beat test.
<<and who's Anne Sexton??>>
from "babel" I randomly turn to
page .... 89/90.
judith revisited
(fragments)
the ladies room
is ravaged
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
parts i. ---->
iv. <<snipped>>
v.
oh jesus write it
out of your body patti. wait wait all
night. weary day.
is snow too
romantic? we could do it in the
snow. washing your hair.
bending over the
tub. running my soapy forefinger down your spine. you on
your knees bent
over the tub. your breasts out of shape
swaying like two
golden
bells. i'm the gardener you're the lady
chatterly. i stand up. turn
around and suck
my my dick.
washing your
hair. maybe too romantic. so what clock. i imagine you on the
nile. that neck
of yours enough to make Nefertiti blush [[english
patient??]]. the delicious white slump of your shoulder
after lovemaking
after
love it wears off
[[can the same be said of god?]] there's grass stains on
your dress [[whitman?]].
we are nearly finished. a cold july with her. in
her sunsuit. her
fleshy legs. when I press my thumb
against it makes a
white mark. the powder on her wrist. how she never
removes her heavy
bracelets
(african) even to make love. her ballet scar. all things pure.
human? no mam. go away from them. mistress is
gelatin. atom.
she's a football
player. one night. [[i.e., with Tom Verlaine]]. no its
dusk. in back of
the bleachers. blondest sweetest football virgin. hardon
softest leather
buttocks. lick it up her delicious teen-age sweat
[[Ginsberg??]]
show her how. make her again. leave her
dazed confused
exhausted defiled
spidered black as coal. oooy-gooey all over her high
school letter.
kick her in the side. in the ear. words pour
i leave you
laying there. i am intact. and i don't care
(rimbaud)
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:40:46 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: Re: Whitman
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"Camarado,
this is not a
book!
Who touches this,
touches the man."
(i don't
presently have the book with me, so the quote isn't accurate. the
point, however,
is the same)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:51:45 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the beat (en) horse/summer reading update
In-Reply-To: <33B615BE.2AA5@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>> lets get
off all this personal crap and in front of god and all,
was my reference
to god. i was saying that god/goddesses exist -if only in
the minds of the
believers and also reigns high in the ranks of the
existentialists,
who need him/her if only to not believe.
no argument
here. just up to
my ear lobes in it all
yes, there is a
drive toward immortality which may fuel some(most?)
writers, but it ,
ok. this was not
meant to be a flame.
now instead of
reading about everyones personal reactions to or negating of
god,
let's talk about
the literature.
i just finished
feat&loathing in Los vegas;
have started
reading hell's angels
but then i was
waylaid by bob kaufman: out of sheer delight, but i seem to
have misplaced
him,
so its back on
the harley for me
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:47:36 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In a message
dated 97-06-29 19:52:22 EDT, you write:
<< but God,
well now, he gets too much
time on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about
him anymore. Fuck that.
Thinking himself SO DEEP,
Bruce
>>
I'm sorry about
my careless post. But I guess I'm modest
and don't like all
the attention i
was receiving with everyone talking about Me and everything.
By the way, I'm a woman.
------maya
(kidding)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:01:32 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
<much
laughter>
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Maya Gorton
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:47 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
In a message
dated 97-06-29 19:52:22 EDT, you write:
<< but God,
well now, he gets too much
time on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about
him anymore. Fuck that.
Thinking himself SO DEEP,
Bruce
>>
I'm sorry about
my careless post. But I guess I'm modest
and don't like all
the attention i
was receiving with everyone talking about Me and everything.
By the way, I'm a woman.
------maya
(kidding)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:22:28 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bukowski
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
In-Reply-To: <33B5389B.5D9A412C@scsn.net>
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On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Burning in
Water, Drowning in Flame
My first
introduction to his poetry and to Buk in general). You're right,
this one's great.
Sometimes I OD on him when I read a whole bookfull of his
poetry once but
man he's damn good. Just small little honest snippets of
life, lined up in
a simple column all lower case ... he makes it look so
easy to write
great poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:33:19 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
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>runner711
wrote:
>
>
<<poetry provides many answers>>
If poetry
provides the answers, who asks the question?
The poet? Ah,
sorry folks, won't
follow that line of line of thought any farther...
> Diane, gave
away my di prima book, so instead I have patti smith.
> hopefully
she will pass this list's beat test.
<<and who's Anne
>Sexton??>>
Ginsberg
performed with patti smith several times, I believe. Befriended
her when she
needed a friend. Certainly appropriate
for beat-l
discussion. As for Anne Sexton, poet, this century, often
labeled
confessional,
nothing redemptive in the confessional aspect, committed
suicide, and, I
find, as I grab up my copy of the New Oxford Book of
American Verse,
to find her dates, she's not even there.
> from "babel" I randomly turn to
page .... 89/90.
>
> judith
revisited (fragments)
> the ladies
room is ravaged
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-
>
> parts i.
----> iv. <<snipped>> part V <<snipped for brevity of
response>>
I find you are
keying in now on the Ginsberg everything is holy theme,
but am I finding
you still thinking Breton's "Beauty is repulsive," (not
sexually), as you
are reading/typing? I'm most moved by
the paradox at
the end: "I
leave you laying there. I am
intact..." It's all a paradox,
Douglas,
beginning with your random selection of this patti smith. beauty
is a paradox,
Babble, a paradox. As Ginsberg would say,
what is beauty
but a six letter
word? Babble, but a six letter word. And
only a stream
of archeytpal
consciousness bringing it all here to this point where our
minds meet.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:43:16 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
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>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> now instead
of reading about everyones personal reactions to or
> negating of
> god,
> let's talk
about the literature.
>
> i just
finished feat&loathing in Los vegas;
> have started
reading hell's angels
> but then i
was waylaid by bob kaufman: out of sheer delight, but i seem to
> have
misplaced him,
> so its back
on the harley for me
> mc
Can some of us
wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
other writers we
are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
going at the same
time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
Cody.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:37:41 -0400
Reply-To: MATT
HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac Names(was notice to all
beetles)
Comments: To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
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BTW Was Memere's
maiden name Rioux?? My grandmother's maiden name is
Rioux. If anyone with Kerouac geneology info could
email me, I'd
appreciate it.
If'n memory serves (and it may not always)
her maiden name was
Levesque (or some similar such
spelling)--or am I quoting of a
fictional name?
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:49:30 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706300303490513@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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An elastic
stretch on this thread--.
An article in the
daily waterpump the other day told of a cloth bracelet
some christian
group is selling. It has WWJD woven into it which means What
Would Jesus Do.
Story tells that they can't make them fast enough to fill
the orders. A hot
money-maker.
I was reminded of
a theology course I sat in on at the University of Iowa
many years ago. I
think it was a Forrell course. He urged the students to
read a book
titled IN HIS SHOES. Briefly, the
minister of an affluent
mainline church
asks congregants if they will join him in an experiement.
Before making
decisions they would ask themselves "What would Jesus do?" It
goes on to tell
the story of how the participant's lives were
affected--some
very dramatically. It was a turn of the century setting, but
some of the
characters (as I recall) ended up very Beat-like.
The book was
powerfully Communistic without mentioning politics. But what
stunned me was
finding out that the book had sold over 25 million copies
(over 25 years
ago) and I'd never seen it on any list of best sellers, nor
heard of it.
Suddenly, along
come some jack-leg christians, ripping off an authors basic
idea and never
mentioning where they got the idea. Out of curiosity, to
what degree(if
any) is this author's estate being
ripped off.
j grant
>This is
true.... but are you assuming that cuz we're talkin bout god that it's
>the
simplistic Biblical one? I for one can't
accept that one dimensional
>model... However, I have known Christians who do read
and have a much more
>expanded view
on this subject than the sheep-like majority...
>
>Ciao,
>Sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
>Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 7:38 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: spare us
>
>Throughout
history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>literature.
>C. Plymell
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
372,191
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:54:13 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: tying it all together
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>Chris Dumond
wrote:
>
> Allen
> Ginsberg is
the atomic bomb at the center of it all.
Quote me on
> that...
> Allen
Ginsberg scared people -- he made them think
> Ginsberg
forced you to experience life rather
than walk the planet in
> shell of
flesh waiting to die.
> Atomic Allen
Ginsberg, unlike his nuclear Russia, exploded!
> I know why
Allen Ginsberg loved Walt Whitman. They
both loved life.
> They
injected life into poetry and made it beautiful again.
Nothing but total
agreement from me here. Image of atomic
bomb/fear is
an excellent one!
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:58:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
In-Reply-To: <33B75584.3415@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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>
>Can some of
us wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
>of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
>other writers
we are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
>going at the
same time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
>gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>Cody.
>DC
@@@@@@@
i'm up for it.
one of my favorites, and reads really well with cassady's
the first third,
which tells frankly, and in my opinion, beautifully, of
his early
childhood on the street with father.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:10:50 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To: Leo
Jilk <ljilk@mail.mps.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 12:18 AM
6/30/97 -0500, Leo Jilk wrote:
>>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>>
>>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>>
literature.
>>> C.
Plymell
>>Hell
Charles, they don't read it, they burn it.
I often why I keep
>>hanging
on to this religion. I mean, ask what's
her name in Alexandria.
>>They
burned her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>>uneasy
truce at best.
>>
>Thinking of
holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
>behind.
>-leo
>
>
I don't know how
much this is relating to the subject, but I just
read(couple days
ago) that In Oklahoma, a judge ruled a 1979 award winning
film
"obscene." Then, after the
ruling, law enforcement officials tracked
down EVERY SINGLE
copy of the film that they could get their hands on in
the state! One guy recalls sitting down to watch it, and
all of a sudden,
he hears a knock
on his door. Sure enough, the police
were waiting there,
because they had
gotten his name from a local video rental store, which
said that he had
rented it! Oh, the reason the film was
obscene was
because it showed
a minor partaking in some kind of sex act.
The film
itself dealt with
the holocaust.
If they can
"take away" this film, they can definately take away _Naked
Lunch_(the book).
ge elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:21:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-06-29 19:52:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << but
God, well now, he gets too much
> time on the old Beat-L, let's not talk about
him anymore. Fuck that.
>
> Thinking himself SO DEEP,
>
> Bruce
> >>
>
> I'm sorry
about my careless post. But I guess I'm
modest and don't like all
> the
attention i was receiving with everyone talking about Me and everything.
> By the way, I'm a woman.
> ------maya
(kidding)
All hail the
triple goddess, or some such said Robert Graves. I am she,
as you are she,
as you are me, as we are all together, or some such said
John Lennon. Daddy, what is God like, I have started to
forget what she
was like when I
was in heaven, or some such said Sarah Catherine Kirby,
age 6. Maya, watch out, you might be more correct
than you realize.
But, my question,
are you the comely lass, the mature woman, or the olde
crone?
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:32:01 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To: jo
grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
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jo grant wrote:
>
> An elastic
stretch on this thread--.
>
> An article
in the daily waterpump the other day told of a cloth bracelet
> some
christian group is selling. It has WWJD woven into it which means What
> Would Jesus
Do. Story tells that they can't make them fast enough to fill
> the orders.
A hot money-maker.
>
> I was
reminded of a theology course I sat in on at the University of Iowa
> many years
ago. I think it was a Forrell course. He urged the students to
> read a book
titled IN HIS SHOES. Briefly, the
minister of an affluent
> mainline
church asks congregants if they will join him in an experiement.
> Before
making decisions they would ask themselves "What would Jesus do?" It
> goes on to
tell the story of how the participant's lives were
>
affected--some very dramatically. It was a turn of the century setting, but
> some of the
characters (as I recall) ended up very Beat-like.
>
> The book was
powerfully Communistic without mentioning politics. But what
> stunned me
was finding out that the book had sold over 25 million copies
> (over 25
years ago) and I'd never seen it on any list of best sellers, nor
> heard of it.
>
> Suddenly,
along come some jack-leg christians, ripping off an authors basic
> idea and
never mentioning where they got the idea. Out of curiosity, to
> what
degree(if any) is this author's estate
being ripped off.
>
> j grant
Jo, actually, I
have a copy of the book and if I can find it will let
you know any
information that is on the title page.
It was a good book,
but a writer from
Chicago wrote a better one in that line called Tell No
Man. Down here in SC, when a minister opens up the
doors of the church
to prostitutes
and the homeless, not to mention AIDS, we fire them in a
hurry. The Rev. Will B. Dunn in Kudzu is based upon
a Baptist Minister
in NC that cared
too much about reality and was defrocked.
The
established
Church is about wordly power, and God as
we call it is
another.
My point in
another post was that Kerouac and others were driven by a
sense of death,
doom, and what the "answer" was.
They looked to "God"?
or what. What should we look to? Our collective selves, our
"beat-l"?
I agree with Maya
that discussion of "God" can be very sophmoric. I
agree with Marie
that it is easy to get off the literature track. So,
what do we talk
about then. If we are going to discuss
Kerouac, I vote
for Pic.
How about
Ferlingetti's (sp?) new book. That is a
damn good book of
poems. Anybody read it?
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:44:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Visionaries (Eliot/Ginsberg again, for
Michael Skau & et al)
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Now that I've
reread some Eliot, I am ready to address a few points from
earlier
Eliot/visionary discussion.
I think there
needs to be a distinction between a poet that writes
symbolically and
a visionary. Eliot is really
depressing. Eliot saw
what was wrong,
spiritually, but accepted "death-in-life,"
(Prufrock)
"Do I dare
disturb the universe?"
"I am no
prophet--and there's no great matter;
I have seen the
moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen
the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker.
And in short, I
was afraid."
Eliot saw the
vision, saw what was necessary to do, but could not rise to
the task. The visionary poet must in some meaning of
the term, be a
prophet, rail
against the status quo, and in doing so put forth a his own
positive vision
of what is possible. He must as Chris
Dumond, so
articulately put,
in another post about Ginsberg, "[rain] life, pride,
and love on us
all." Blake took the work of other
writers, like Milton,
and put his
vision over their's in a way that spread out, and widened,
set up his own
system, of what was and what could be.
The hope in the
Wasteland is faint, really faint, the sound of thunder
there but not
resonant, not awakening, at least not yet.
The grass is
singing but it is
not fully alive. Not in the way Whitman
or Ginsberg
sang or were
fully alive. A visionary says "this
is what I see" and
projects his
vision out there, loudly.
Eliot writes,
"No! I am
not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant
lord, one that will do
To swell a
progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the
prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad
to be of use,
Politic,
cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high
sentence, but a bit obtuse"
Eliot used
symbols well, layering in metaphoric and metaphysical
dimensions, the
fire and rose are one, even cyclic sometimes in his view
of words and
history, but often his words are devoid of power, the power
to change, to do
anymore than accept his lot. A true
visionary
transforms
experience, their experience and our experience. In Howl,
Ginsberg raged
against America, but he also saw the possibility for the
hope that rises
up in our humanness. Eliot is not
grasping upon the
mermaid, rising
with her cutching rebirth, he is looking at it from afar.
I would describe his voice not so much as a
visionary one as one that
saw what was
possible, but was unable to grasp whatever he needed to
transcend his
condition.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:11:29 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
In-Reply-To: <33B7259E.5EC0596B@scsn.net>
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Bentz,
I think it was
the the Vandals who were responsible for buring the greatest
library of that
age. Men ran the library ballgame in those days and they
all fled. It was
a woman who tried to reason with the Vandals (as I recall)
and failed. I've
tried to find the folder with the research material but
it's packed
someplace. When I come across it I'll share the sources.
There are so many
instances of christians burning books tho, that you may
have the wrong yo
yo, but you've certainly got the right string
j grant
>Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>>
>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>
literature.
>> C.
Plymell
>Hell Charles,
they don't read it, they burn it. I
often why I keep
>hanging on to
this religion. I mean, ask what's her
name in Alexandria.
>They burned
her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>uneasy truce
at best.
>
>Peace,
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
313,599 visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:28:55 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: > blade of grass <<was:
ok, perhaps>>
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<<digging
thru my exceeded mailbox space>>
Shari writ:
><<blade
of grass. What we don't know is what god
is. Perhaps the whole
>notion of it
is that s/he/it cannot be defined by humankind, because we, as a
>part of god,
cannot fully experience the whole and, therefore, can only
speculate based
on that portion of god which we can.>>
yes and we must
talk about the "portions of god we can see". Not just
relegate him to a
three letter word. granted that's what
he is. but
>still...
<<you know what I mean>>
>
><<This
is of course necessarily truncated, and barely scratches the surface,
but hopefully you
can read between the lines.>>
yes, I've think
I've fallen in a couple. my couch last
night seemed to
>have a
few. <<or perhaps that was the
cat???>> ;-)
>
><<Btw,
has anyone suggested a Beat chat room... would be alot easier to
discuss some of
this stuff that way and a hell of alot more fun.>>
yes, and it would
get us youngsters [freshmen] out of your hair, too!!!
><<laugh>>
>
><<Ciao,
Sherri
love_singing@msn.com>>
>cheers,
Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:27:01 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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Thanks Jo, and
yes=97the town is Austin. Ever been there? It's a crazy
place I've
managed to avoid. You don't see Hamsun's name come up to
often. It's like
the other day, I had one of James Tate's grad students
at my place and
he selected some books off the shelf: Maurice
Maeterlinck,
Count Herman Keyserling, and Hamsun's "PAN" with a look
of confusion he
asked me if he could borrow them, and that he wasn't
aware of them or
the authors. I let him borrow "PAN," I thought that
was a good
choice.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:35:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: God
<<still digging>>
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<<still
digging thru the beat backlog at work>>
Joseph Neudorfer
writ
><< [ = there is nothing holding us back
from knowing all, but there is
>no
>physical
possibility of reaching that 'all-knowledge', you would soon
>swim in
insanity . . . hense Jehovah is crazy . . . that is why even
>Moses, the
figure who was in Yahweh's presence, was not actually face to
>face. When
Moses asked Yahweh to reveal himself (one of the many times
>on the
mountains, after the burning bush), Yahweh only permitted Moses
>to observe
his back and shoulders - which on one level is a paradox in
itself.>>
and is this why
Andre Breton says "beauty must be repulsive"?? To reach
'all-beauty'
would one soon be repulsed by everything??
and where to go
from there? back down the mountain?? [[please don't let me ask about
the "burning
bush" in this context, please don't let me ask, please...
<<laughing>>
Still wish you
would explain that Yahweh/Moses ---> back/shoulders
paradox. Maybe Yahweh was an ugly mofo, having a
badhair day, and just
decided to be
shy? somewhat kidding, but curious <<answer via
>backchannel
if necessary>>
>
>> Joseph
Neudorfer
yours truly,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:35:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
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<<at work
now>>
Diane writ:
<<I find
you are keying in now on the Ginsberg everything is holy theme
>[[yes, thank
you]], but am I finding you still thinking Breton's "Beauty is
>repulsive,"
(not sexually), as you are reading/typing?
I'm most moved by the
>paradox at
>the end:
"I leave you laying there. I am
intact..." It's all a paradox,
>Douglas,
beginning with your random selection of this patti smith. beauty
>is a paradox,
Babble, a paradox. As Ginsberg would
say, what is beauty
>but a six
letter word? Babble, but a six letter word.
And only a stream
>of archeytpal
consciousness bringing it all here to this point where our
minds
meet.>>
ok. I'm a big fan
of the river. that much has been
proven. you could
turn the faucet
on and off, little or large all day long, as far as I
care. but words do have meanings. and I hate wasting water. can't
deny that. words have meanings that change, that must be
tracked, that
can be
appropriated. [[yes, therein lies the
paradox. Can we follow it
for a while?]]
what I love about
patti smith (especially her earlier work) is that she
rambles, she
brings in a beat train of thought. In
the work I quoted
(and the lines
you liked) she's taken the male point of view (possibly
Rimbaud's). taken it for a ride and seen what the
possibilities
provided
her. <<amazing>>
old hag, middle
aged hen, early cluck. all the same some
would say.
attitude is
everything. <<perhaps>> relativity does apply at a
certain point. at the speed of light, I might change into an
old man,
flying back from
outer space; while you and yours remain the same.
<<einstein
proved that, yes?>> words may be
just a composite of
letters, counted
and mounted; but when words gain human attributes
(i.e.,
"nigger"), we must put our heads together on the wall, and
honestly talk
about what death and dying really mean.
the traces of
beauty we find in
the world, and yes indeed, if beauty is *truly*
repulsive. what would that mean? [[and I wonder how it *looks*,
surrealist or
not]]
I agree words can
be nothing/everything holy (as Ginsberg would
apparently
define), but I still must hold onto a societal view of
"beauty"
(and a few other choice words). beauty
needs to go for a ride
with me for a
while longer. this I must see. [[oh..exhale..]] why is
it so hard to
give up words? they answer so many
questions.
"what are words for, when nobody
listens any more for
[....] there's no use talking
all..." [missing persons]
>DC
cheers, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:36:48 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Thanks / BENTZ
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Thanks for the
kind words and the feelings mutual. If I ever make it
out to SC, I'll
look you up. And try putting down the poetry. When
I first started
writing I borrowed Andre Breton's method of automatic
writing=97I think
Jack K called it spontaneous prose or whatever. He
must've read
Breton at some point; Celine, etc.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:40:49 -0600
Reply-To: Denis Alcock
<dalcock@FALSTAFF.UNM.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Denis Alcock
<dalcock@FALSTAFF.UNM.EDU>
Subject: summer reading
In-Reply-To: <33B7FCC0.4354@bitstream.net>
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I vote for Dr.
Sax!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:47:58 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: JAMES: FRISCO BOUND!
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Hey James,
I knew you'd dig
the gig! I'll be playing unplugged with him
on July 11. I'll
be using a vintage Circa 1937, Dobro and glass
slide-Luther will
play a Martin and fill in the lead. Unfortunately,
this concert will
probably take place in my living room. Luther loves
to fish with me
and his buddies=97we're both a couple of chicken and
fish eating
bastards!
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
P.S. Glad you
gotta chance to read the Pulse interview.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:52:15 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Whitman
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<<still
digging>>
>From: Ksenija
Simic[SMTP:ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU]
>
>"Camarado,
>this is not a
book!
>Who touches
this, touches the man."
Note to
myself: explore book covers of
beats. first editions ---->
etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
bind... ;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
Douglas <<obese in thought, thin on
restraint>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:49:40 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Goodbye (not forever)
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Hello,
I am writing
because I am leaving the list temporarily.
About three weeks
to be precise. I'm going to France and Italy, and I won't be
able to check
e-mail, so I must
unsubscribe. This list is a lot of fun,
and very
informational. I've learned a great deal by just reading
what other people
wrote. I hope that when I come back that there will
be some good
discussion of
literature, because I see that's what's brewing right now.
Anyway, have fun
while I'm away!
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:03:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
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Marie responded
to Diane:
<<
>>gets the
most votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>>Cody.
>>DC
>@@@@@@@
>i'm up for
it. one of my favorites, and reads really well with cassady's
>the first
third, which tells frankly, and in my opinion, beautifully, of
his early
childhood on the street with father.
>>
Cool, don't know
this book (Visions of Cody) but from Marie's
description
[[early years, god, father, beauty, cassady, some guy named
>"frankly"]]
- sounds good to me. count my vote on
this one.
Can someone via
backchannel, please tell me how this relates to "On the
Road"? <<Chronologically, thematically,
etc...>>
>> mc
Douglas <<and what does the @@@@ translate to?
curious...>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:45:34 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Holy shit!!! Since when did a judge's ruling allow
confiscation... there's
certainly no
confiscation going on of hardcore porn, are the police within
their rights to do
this???? Ray Bradbury may have been a
prophet. [Thinking
of digging a huge hole in the basement,
installing shelves & putting my books
down there under
a hidden door.]
Thank god I live
in San Francisco...
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Greg Elwell
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:10 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: spare us
At 12:18 AM
6/30/97 -0500, Leo Jilk wrote:
>>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>>
>>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of objective
>>>
literature.
>>> C.
Plymell
>>Hell
Charles, they don't read it, they burn it.
I often why I keep
>>hanging
on to this religion. I mean, ask what's
her name in Alexandria.
>>They
burned her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>>I hope my
church never finds out that I think for myself.
It is an
>>uneasy
truce at best.
>>
>Thinking of
holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
>behind.
>-leo
>
>
I don't know how
much this is relating to the subject, but I just
read(couple days
ago) that In Oklahoma, a judge ruled a 1979 award winning
film
"obscene." Then, after the
ruling, law enforcement officials tracked
down EVERY SINGLE
copy of the film that they could get their hands on in
the state! One guy recalls sitting down to watch it, and
all of a sudden,
he hears a knock
on his door. Sure enough, the police
were waiting there,
because they had
gotten his name from a local video rental store, which
said that he had
rented it! Oh, the reason the film was
obscene was
because it showed
a minor partaking in some kind of sex act.
The film
itself dealt with
the holocaust.
If they can
"take away" this film, they can definately take away _Naked
Lunch_(the book).
ge elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:47:24 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
I vote for
Desolation Angels, Dharma Bums or Big Sur...
would love to do
this. Great idea Diane.
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 11:43 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> now instead
of reading about everyones personal reactions to or
> negating of
> god,
> let's talk
about the literature.
>
> i just
finished feat&loathing in Los vegas;
> have started
reading hell's angels
> but then i
was waylaid by bob kaufman: out of sheer delight, but i seem to
> have
misplaced him,
> so its back
on the harley for me
> mc
Can some of us
wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
other writers we
are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
going at the same
time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
Cody.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:51:28 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: FW: please read this and vote
Comments: To:
Stef <Ad_Libitum@msn.com>, HJW II <ArchibaldLeach@msn.com>,
Stuart Crosby
<BRAVES10@msn.com>, Ron Vassel <BlizzardKing@msn.com>,
Michael Riddle
<CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com>,
Cari Who ELSE????
<CittiGirl@msn.com>, db <Dee-Bee@msn.com>,
Homebrook <Homebrook@msn.com>,
Jason Tinling <JTinlng@msn.com>,
Joseph L <JoePlacebo@msn.com>,
Kevin Mathers <KEVMATH@msn.com>,
Kel Rayner <Manatbar@msn.com>,
the little people
<MarmaladeSkies@msn.com>,
Kent <NoixDeGolf@msn.com>, Jim
B <PBRUEGEL@msn.com>,
Ask and I might tell you
<Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com>,
R <ROcean@msn.com>, Blair
<Reepoo@msn.com>,
James Sims <SimbaJim@msn.com>,
Sharon <SopAndBass@msn.com>,
Tom Gummo <TGUMMO@msn.com>,
Life is a sick joke and I'm the
punchline <The_Boogey_Man@msn.com>,
rico <UNIR1@msn.com>, Mark
<Vox_Amicus@msn.com>,
"e.e. cummings"
<What-is_death@msn.com>,
Tanya Ceccatto
<_AngelBaby@msn.com>,
_Prometheus1 <_Prometheus1@msn.com>,
S Johnson <doc11@msn.com>,
Drew Eskenazi
<drewesk@msn.com>, Robert Lear <king_lear1@msn.com>,
x <king_lear1@msn.com>, PAUL
KOLJESKI <koljeski@msn.com>,
Silver Surfer
<mad-chatter@msn.com>, david simoni <oak123@msn.com>,
Kash Philips
<philkash@msn.com>,
anthony osborne
<rastafarian@msn.com>,
Rico Mariani
<ricom_ms@msn.com>, Robert Eback <rleback@msn.com>,
Stephen Baldwin
<sabaldwin@msn.com>, anniepoo <annh@ccrtc.com>,
BigDaddyRico <Engelsguy@aol.com>,
Don Green <NYCDBG@aol.com>,
cj <sjohn111@aol.com>, Kent
Smedley <Kent.Smedley@clorox.com>,
THEBODYIS1@aol.com
This is
important, please take the time.
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: Jamey Sims
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:48 AM
To: 'sherry'; 'Dave'; 'jota'; 'Jacky';
'Sherri'; 'Stella'; 'Jennifer';
'Ralph'; 'David
Lang'; 'boyeeeeeee'; 'Suzie & Robert'; 'Gary'; 'The Lang
Gang'; 'Brandon
Wescott'; 'kevey'; 'Dr Cowan'; 'Renee'; 'bogie'; 'Tammy';
'Shari &
Troy'; 'Yvonne'
Subject: FW: please read this and vote
do this please
--Jamey
----------
From: Marrow
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 3:35 PM
To: Jamey Sims
Subject: please read this and vote
>From: Marrow
<mychajlo@pop.fast.net>
>Subject:
please read this and vote
>
>>From:
J_DRUCK@prodigy.com (MR JEFFREY L DRUCKENMILLER)
>>Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:39:12, -0500
>>To:
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com, mychajlo@fast.net
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>
>>for your
interest
>>
>>
>>
>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>
>>From: (Warshie) DIANNE WARSHAVER
>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>Date: 06/20
>>Time: 07:28 PM
>>
>>so, we
are never safe from crazies.....
>>
>>
>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>
>>From: David Blum
>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>Date: 06/20
>>Time: 06:55 PM
>>
>>Return-Path:
<davmark@mindspring.com>
>>Received:
from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com
>>[207.69.200.11])
>> by pimaia1w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id SAA106760
>> for <Warshie@prodigy.com>; Fri, 20
Jun 1997 18:56:48 -0400
>>Received:
from 38.26.20.135 (ip135.an9-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
>>[38.26.20.135])
>> by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id SAA03646;
>> Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:55:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>Message-ID:
<33AAC4FA.42EF@mindspring.com>
>>Date:
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:59:22 +0100
>>From:
David Blum <davmark@mindspring.com>
>>Reply-To:
davmark@mindspring.com
>>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
>>MIME-Version:
1.0
>>To:
"artworks@concentric.net" <artworks@concentric.net>,
>> "CHFriend@aol.com"
<CHFriend@aol.com>,
>> "joshperi@netvision.net.il"
<joshperi@netvision.net.il>,
>> MS DIANNE L WARSHAVER
<Warshie@prodigy.com>,
>> Sarah Barnett
<phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu>,
>> Steve Zuckerman
<szucker@isd.net>,
>> "Susan E. Ranney"
<sranney@azstarnet.com>,
>> Suzie Dennis Ben David
<marketingedge@msn.com>,
>> "zin@juno.com"
<zin@juno.com>
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>>
>>>Forwarded
message:
>>>Subj: No Subject
>>>Date: 97-06-06 03:17:09 EDT
>>>From: Jonapangai
>>>To: CampNicole
>>>
>>>We
have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
>>>(again)
a usenet group where they want to keep in contact
>>>with
each other regarding their activities. I believe it is not
>>>necessary
to dwell further on these activities.
>>>
>>>The
group is rec.music.white-power
>>>
>>>To
create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is
>>>always
organised when a new usenet group is created.
>>>All
persons with an email address, and only those, can vote
>>>in
this referendum.
>>>
>>>It is
IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is
>>>cancelled.
>>>
>>>To
prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
>>>
>>> 1. Send this message to people you know
>>>
>>> 2. Send an email to the following address:
>>>
>>> music-vote@sub-rosa.com
>>>
>>> 3. In the body of your message (not in the
'subject' line)
>>> include EXACTLY and ONLY the following
line:
>>>
>>> I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>>>
>>>Since
the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the
>>>exact
line as it is given above, without adding anything, not even
>>a
>>>name.
>>>And
please send it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
>>>
>>>PLEASE FORWARD
>>>THIS
LETTER TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL ADDRESS TO
>>>PREVENT
THE GROUP FOUNDERS FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
>>>
>>>*********************************************
>>>
Israel Rubinstein
>>>
Professor of Chemistry
>>>
Department of Materials and Interfaces
>>>The
Weizmann Institute of Science
>>>
Rehovot 76100, Israel
>>>Phone:
+972 8 9342678 Fax: +972 8 9344137
>>>
E-mail: cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il
>>>http://www.weizmann.ac.il/weg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Gerardo
(Jerry) Rogoff
>>Field
Applications Engineer
>>Exar
Corporation
>>500 Clark
Rd.
>>Tewksbury,
MA 01876
>>
>>Tel.: (508) 640-8899
>>FAX: (508) 640-6926
>>Pager:
(800) 943-4064
>>
>>email:
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
>>Visit our
Website @: http://www.exar.com
>>
>>
>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>
>><Distribution
List>
>> (FJHE36A), J DRUCKENMILLER
>> (TVSG32A), STEVE BOGUS
>>
>>
>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>
>>
Sincerely,
Michael T.
Montgomery
mychajlo@fast.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:48:47 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>Can some of
us wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
>of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
>other writers
we are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
>going at the
same time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
>gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>Cody.
>DC
VOC is fine with me (no lazy poetics
intended) but we must do a rehash
as we approach the 40th of OTR at the end
of the summer.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:25:08 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: spare us
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sherri,
I found an
on-line archive of my local newspaper where I read the article.
It was in The
Philadelphia Inquirer. Here's the URL:
http://www2.phillynews.com/inquirer/97/Jun/28/national/DRUM28.htm
Now, you can read
this insanity for yourself
At 05:45 PM
6/30/97 UT, you wrote:
>Holy
shit!!! Since when did a judge's ruling
allow confiscation... there's
>certainly no
confiscation going on of hardcore porn, are the police within
>their rights
to do this???? Ray Bradbury may have
been a prophet. [Thinking
>of digging a huge hole in the basement,
installing shelves & putting my
books
>down there
under a hidden door.]
>
>Thank god I
live in San Francisco...
>
>Ciao,
>Sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Greg Elwell
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:10 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: spare us
>
>At 12:18 AM
6/30/97 -0500, Leo Jilk wrote:
>>>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
Throughout history Christians are not known for their reading of
objective
>>>> literature.
>>>>
C. Plymell
>>>Hell
Charles, they don't read it, they burn it.
I often why I keep
>>>hanging
on to this religion. I mean, ask what's
her name in Alexandria.
>>>They
burned her library, killed all the gnostics, and flayed her to
>>>death in public.
Thanks a lot for being literary.
Yeah, the
>>>Christians
just don't, as an organization, like good literature do they.
>>>I
hope my church never finds out that I think for myself. It is an
>>>uneasy
truce at best.
>>>
>>Thinking
of holocaust, when they start burning books, people can't be far
>>behind.
>>-leo
>>
>>
>I don't know
how much this is relating to the subject, but I just
>read(couple
days ago) that In Oklahoma, a judge ruled a 1979 award winning
>film
"obscene." Then, after the
ruling, law enforcement officials tracked
>down EVERY
SINGLE copy of the film that they could get their hands on in
>the
state! One guy recalls sitting down to
watch it, and all of a sudden,
>he hears a
knock on his door. Sure enough, the
police were waiting there,
>because they
had gotten his name from a local video rental store, which
>said that he
had rented it! Oh, the reason the film
was obscene was
>because it
showed a minor partaking in some kind of sex act. The film
>itself dealt
with the holocaust.
>
>If they can
"take away" this film, they can definately take away _Naked
>Lunch_(the
book).
>
>
>ge elwellg@voicenet.com
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:31:17 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Don't shoot the messenger
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
This is my first post to the list,
although I've been off and on in
various
incarnations for the last six months. I've been hoping to learn
something from
the subscribers, and I have.
I've also seen that the list offers a
forum for people to express th=
eir
opinions, as well
as their anger, and to advance agendas, whether factual=
ly
or in a way
designed to manipulate with emotions.
I'm a writer who lives in Seattle, and my
credentials include
freelancing for
NPR as well as numerous print publications. I have a long
association with
jack, going back to the summer of Woodstock, when I turn=
ed
18 and read On
The Road and contemplated grabbing my rucksack and running=
off
with the lonesome
traveler who'd given me the book and taken my virginity=
(a
fair swap, I must
say).
The Road, for me, for the last near-30
years, has been as straight a=
s a
corkscrew, but
jack was always there somewhere. Someday I'll tell that st=
ory.
Right now, I have
something more important to say.
In the passionate environment that
surrounds all things Beat and
people's personal
connections to them, and especially, to jack himself, a=
ll
of us who have
come after the fact (not folks like Leon and Charles) seem=
to
have staked
claims and established turf.=20
As principal characters in the kerouac
saga burned bright and then
burned out,
issues began to surface. The issue that has become the most
addressable is
that one which was heatedly discussed here a month or so a=
go:
the
*preservation* of jack's archives. It is part of that issue I wish to
address, with new
information I acquired through research.
I've been in touch with people who could
only be described as second=
ary
to the life of
jack kerouac, asking questions and assembling a feature st=
ory.
There are also
many people I have not met or interviewed. But two of the
people I have
interviewed by phone and through thousands of words in lett=
ers
are Rod Anstee
and Gerry Nicosia. I had the opportunity to form opinions
about both these
men independently, since I did not know, at first, their
history with one
another. Because of their individual credentials, and as=
I
learned the
history they'd shared, determining reliability from either of
them (as sources
for news or feature stories on archive or Estate issues)=
was
essential to
writing the most accurate possible account.
Rod posted a letter to this list regarding
the contents of Gerry's U=
Mass
archives, and I
observed the claims and reactions that followed, without
comment. I was
sad and upset, as I think most of us were, to witness the
conflict.=20
After Rod voluntarily signed off the list
and the rest of the confli=
ct
played itself
out, I called Martha Mayo at UMass, for the specific purpos=
e of
verifying a) what
Rod had claimed and b) what Gerry had claimed. Here are
some of my notes
from that interview, for your edification:
***Martha Mayo
interview, 1:40 to 1:48pm PDT, 17 June 1997 (Mogan Center,
UMass Lowell,
508/934-4997)****
I gave my name and location, said I was a
writer, said I was traveli=
ng
east later this
year and wondered about my chances for seeing the Memory =
Babe
(MB) collection.
"It's an open collection. Anyone can
view it," Mayo said. "It carrie=
s
with it some
standard restrictions. But the major restriction is that let=
ters
from authors
cannot be photocopied, because they are copyrighted material=
s,
copyrighted by
the Estate.
"No photocopying is allowed of any of
Kerouac's letters, because man=
y of
them are
photocopies that came from other collections, and there are
copyright
issues.=20
"There is nothing original in this
collection," she said. "These are
research notes
gathered from many sources."
She said they're very understaffed right
now because school's out fo=
r
the summer, but
that there is always someone available from 9am to 5pm,
Monday through
Friday, to assist people who want to see the collection. S=
he
said people
aren't really using it that much, but that someone had recent=
ly
come to town and
spent time viewing the collection. "Just make an appoint=
ment
3 or 4 days in
advance, letting us know when you'll be here."
So, according to Martha Mayo a) the MB
collection is not closed; b) =
the
MB collection
contains photocopies from other collections; c) anyone who =
asks
permission can
see the collection; d) the collection is composed of
photocopies only;
and e) no one is allowed to photocopy these photocopies.
In short, Rod Anstee is right about the MB
collection and what=92s i=
n it.
I invite you to check these facts on your
own. If anyone in the Lowe=
ll
area could
actually walk in and test this, that would be best.
My
point is this: when anyone claims anything, especially in matters
that are so
potentially inflammatory as this one is, verify the facts, if
there are any.
There=92s no need to become personally involved or defensi=
ve
about facts.
One last note about threats of litigation
regarding libel, slander a=
nd
copyright
infringement: read the Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Man=
ual
for a broad
overview of these legal terms and their ramifications. Truth =
is
always a
legitimate defense.
The rest of the information I=92ve
gathered over the last few months=
will
be submitted for
publication to various markets. I will post a notice of =
any
impending
publication to this list.=20
Diane De Rooy
ddrooy@aol.com
membabe@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:20:56 -0500
Reply-To: Peyote Coyote <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Peyote Coyote <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Subject: summer reading and a welcome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Hi. I'm new to the list. My name is Joey Mellott, but you can call me
Peyote Coyote, a
random name I thought up while reading a piece by Artaud.
I will be a
senior in HS in August. I've read On the
Road and Naked
Lunch, and am now
reading Desolation Angels, with plans to read Dr. Sax,
Tristessa, and/or
the Soft Machine by the end of summer. I
became
intrested in the
Beats when a friend suggested I do my US History term
paper on Jack
Kerouac. Thirteen pages and an A+ later,
I'm hooked.
Suggestions are
welcome.
My vote: Desolation Angels. It's superduperific.
Joey Mellott :
poet, writer, and word shaman
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
"the
socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little
bells (300 of
horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."
- Antonin Artaud
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:32:31 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
douglas, i think
that einstein proved that time essentially stands still at
the speed of
light... am i mistaken?
at home with the
flu...
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Penn, Douglas, K
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 10:35 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
<<at work
now>>
<<old hag,
middle aged hen, early cluck. all the
same some would say.
attitude is
everything. <<perhaps>> relativity does apply at a
certain
point. at the speed of light, I might
change into an old man,
flying back from
outer space; while you and yours remain the same.
<<einstein
proved that, yes?>> words may be
just a composite of
letters, counted
and mounted; but when words gain human attributes
(i.e.,
"nigger"), we must put our heads together on the wall, and
honestly talk
about what death and dying really mean.
the traces of
beauty we find in
the world, and yes indeed, if beauty is *truly*
repulsive. what would that mean? [[and I wonder how it *looks*,
surrealist or
not]]
I agree words can
be nothing/everything holy (as Ginsberg would
apparently
define), but I still must hold onto a societal view of
"beauty"
(and a few other choice words). beauty
needs to go for a ride
with me for a
while longer. this I must see. [[oh..exhale..]] why is
it so hard to
give up words? they answer so many
questions.
"what are words for, when nobody
listens any more for
[....] there's no use talking
all..." [missing persons]
>DC
cheers,
Douglas>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:05:10 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: To:
Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Ddrooy@AOL.COM writ:
>As principal characters in the kerouac
saga burned bright and then
>burned out
Who burned out?
Of the "big 5" (my definition)
Jack died young (wrote until his
death--albeit for a girly mag), Cassady
died young (flipped hammers
until his death...ok, but he did write),
Ginsberg wrote until his
death (and may still be writing),
Burroughs is still writing (and may
be preserved enough never to die), Snyder
(in my big 5 because he was
major character and subject) is still
writing (wonderfully, and giving
great lectures).
After that...who? Ferlinghetti (still going (thump, thump, thump))
Hunke (wrote pretty much until death),
Corso? Whalen? We're running
out of names........(not really)
The early Beats aren't dead,they're just
resting.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:40:32 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: the beat (en) horse/summer
reading update
i agree matt...
hope i won't be outta the country for that
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
MATT HANNAN
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:48 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: the beat (en) horse/summer
reading update
>Can some of
us wildly grasp onto one Kerouac work, together, for the sake
>of
discussion, and let comparisons/or lack
thereof, relate to whatever
>other writers
we are reading at the moment? I tend to
have six books
>going at the
same time. Start voting for Kerouac, and
which ever book
>gets the most
votes wins. James, start counting...I vote for Visions of
>Cody.
>DC
VOC is fine with me (no lazy poetics
intended) but we must do a rehash
as
we approach the 40th of OTR at the end of the summer.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:15:15 +0200
Reply-To: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic
<ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU>
Subject: my vote
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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dharma bums.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:07:30 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Whitman
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970630175215Z-5828@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Douglas wrote:
><<still
digging>>
>
>>From: Ksenija
Simic[SMTP:ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU]
>>
>>"Camarado,
>>this is
not a book!
>>Who
touches this, touches the man."
>
>Note to myself: explore book covers of beats. first editions ---->
>etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
>bind...
;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
>room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
>
>Douglas <<obese in thought, thin on
restraint>>
I thought I could
only be a
writer if I
pushed a book against
my lips until i
bled.
=46unny thought.
I dented my lip
and tasted the
book, but I
didn't bleed.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:20:52 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Be At Home.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
BE AT HOME!
it is near
a summer evening
lavender flowers
in the garden
i'm afraid! i'm afraid!
at
sunset
honey bees
they worked
at
the end of a day
i'm afraid! i'm afraid!
be at home!
why are you afraid
by the bees?
they yield honey!
do you like the honey?
without bees nothing honey
do you like the honey?
I DONT' LIKE HONEy!
I DONT' LINE HONEY!
I DONT' LIKE HONEy!
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * a bee
beaten *
www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:37:59 -0500
Reply-To: chizam@TRACE.IE.WISC.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Chisholm
<chizam@TRACE.IE.WISC.EDU>
Subject: self proclaimed poet
I am a self
proclaimed poet
relatively new to
beat-l
thought I'd
promote
my site of poetry
(http://trace.ie.wisc.edu/chizam)
I'm a 19 year old
male
living in
Wisconsin
(when I'm not out
traveling)
no formal
teaching
have I recived
in the area of
writing
but I enjoy it
I'm no Kerouac,
Ginsberg, or Whitman
I'm just me
writing
my opinions
my thoughts
my experiences
on paper and in
computers
If you would
go and read my
work
email me what you
think
I'll keep on
writing
because all in
all
it is just for me
Zach Chisholm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:40:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW: please
read this and vote)
Comments: cc:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706301808480644@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 17.51 30/06/97
UT, you wrote:
>This is
important, please take the time.
>Ciao, Sherri
>
>----------
>From: Jamey Sims
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:48 AM
>To: 'sherry'; 'Dave'; 'jota'; 'Jacky';
'Sherri'; 'Stella'; 'Jennifer';
>'Ralph';
'David Lang'; 'boyeeeeeee'; 'Suzie & Robert'; 'Gary'; 'The Lang
>Gang';
'Brandon Wescott'; 'kevey'; 'Dr Cowan'; 'Renee'; 'bogie'; 'Tammy';
>'Shari &
Troy'; 'Yvonne'
>Subject: FW: please read this and vote
>
>do this
please
>--Jamey
>
>----------
>From: Marrow
>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 3:35 PM
>To: Jamey Sims
>Subject: please read this and vote
>
>
>
>>From:
Marrow <mychajlo@pop.fast.net>
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>
>>>From:
J_DRUCK@prodigy.com (MR JEFFREY L DRUCKENMILLER)
>>>Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:39:12, -0500
>>>To:
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com, mychajlo@fast.net
>>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>>
>>>for
your interest
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>>
>>>From: (Warshie) DIANNE WARSHAVER
>>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>>Date: 06/20
>>>Time: 07:28 PM
>>>
>>>so,
we are never safe from crazies.....
>>>
>>>
>>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>>
>>>From: David Blum
>>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>>Date: 06/20
>>>Time: 06:55 PM
>>>
>>>Return-Path:
<davmark@mindspring.com>
>>>Received:
from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com
>>>[207.69.200.11])
>>> by pimaia1w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id SAA106760
>>> for <Warshie@prodigy.com>; Fri, 20
Jun 1997 18:56:48 -0400
>>>Received:
from 38.26.20.135 (ip135.an9-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
>>>[38.26.20.135])
>>> by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id SAA03646;
>>> Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:55:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>>Message-ID:
<33AAC4FA.42EF@mindspring.com>
>>>Date:
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:59:22 +0100
>>>From:
David Blum <davmark@mindspring.com>
>>>Reply-To:
davmark@mindspring.com
>>>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
>>>MIME-Version:
1.0
>>>To:
"artworks@concentric.net" <artworks@concentric.net>,
>>> "CHFriend@aol.com"
<CHFriend@aol.com>,
>>> "joshperi@netvision.net.il"
<joshperi@netvision.net.il>,
>>> MS DIANNE L WARSHAVER
<Warshie@prodigy.com>,
>>> Sarah Barnett <phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu>,
>>> Steve Zuckerman
<szucker@isd.net>,
>>> "Susan E. Ranney"
<sranney@azstarnet.com>,
>>> Suzie Dennis Ben David
<marketingedge@msn.com>,
>>> "zin@juno.com"
<zin@juno.com>
>>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>>>
>>>>Forwarded
message:
>>>>Subj: No Subject
>>>>Date: 97-06-06 03:17:09 EDT
>>>>From: Jonapangai
>>>>To: CampNicole
>>>>
>>>>We
have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
>>>>(again)
a usenet group where they want to keep in contact
>>>>with
each other regarding their activities. I believe it is not
>>>>necessary
to dwell further on these activities.
>>>>
>>>>The
group is rec.music.white-power
>>>>
>>>>To
create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is
>>>>always
organised when a new usenet group is created.
>>>>All
persons with an email address, and only those, can vote
>>>>in
this referendum.
>>>>
>>>>It
is IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is
>>>>cancelled.
>>>>
>>>>To
prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Send this message to people you know
>>>>
>>>> 2. Send an email to the following address:
>>>>
>>>> music-vote@sub-rosa.com
>>>>
>>>> 3. In the body of your message (not in the
'subject' line)
>>>> include EXACTLY and ONLY the following
line:
>>>>
>>>> I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>>>>
>>>>Since
the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the
>>>>exact
line as it is given above, without adding anything, not even
>>>a
>>>>name.
>>>>And
please send it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
>>>>
>>>>PLEASE FORWARD
>>>>THIS
LETTER TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL ADDRESS TO
>>>>PREVENT
THE GROUP FOUNDERS FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
>>>>
>>>>*********************************************
>>>>
Israel Rubinstein
>>>>
Professor of Chemistry
>>>>
Department of Materials and Interfaces
>>>>The
Weizmann Institute of Science
>>>>
Rehovot 76100, Israel
>>>>Phone:
+972 8 9342678 Fax: +972 8 9344137
>>>>
E-mail: cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il
>>>>http://www.weizmann.ac.il/weg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Gerardo
(Jerry) Rogoff
>>>Field
Applications Engineer
>>>Exar
Corporation
>>>500
Clark Rd.
>>>Tewksbury,
MA 01876
>>>
>>>Tel.: (508) 640-8899
>>>FAX: (508) 640-6926
>>>Pager:
(800) 943-4064
>>>
>>>email:
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
>>>Visit
our Website @: http://www.exar.com
>>>
>>>
>>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>>
>>><Distribution
List>
>>> (FJHE36A), J DRUCKENMILLER
>>> (TVSG32A), STEVE BOGUS
>>>
>>>
>>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>Michael T.
Montgomery
>mychajlo@fast.net
>
>
Sherri,
i agree with yr
fwd message, i have already posted likes
message in march
97 & now i dont' know if nazi are attempting
to re-vote 'bout
this NG, if this the case, please send yr
fresh informaion,
'cuz i was pointed (in march 97) that the
vote was over
& the nazi NG spin off the Usenet... but time
perhaps are a
changin',
ciao e tanti
saluti da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:45:08 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: self proclaimed poet
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>From: Zach Chisholm
<chizam@TRACE.IE.WISC.EDU>
>Subject: self proclaimed poet
>
>I am a self
proclaimed poet
>relatively
new to beat-l
>thought I'd
promote
>my site of
poetry
>(http://trace.ie.wisc.edu/chizam)
>I'm a 19 year
old male
>living in
Wisconsin
>(when I'm not
out traveling)
>no formal
teaching
>have I
recived
>in the area
of writing
>but I enjoy
it
>I'm no
Kerouac, Ginsberg, or Whitman
>I'm just me
writing
>my opinions
>my thoughts
>my
experiences
>on paper and
in computers
>If you would
>go and read
my work
>email me what
you think
>I'll keep on
writing
>because all
in all
>it is just
for me
>
>Zach Chisholm
>
>
zach, nice
performance! self proclaimed poet RIGHT ON!
if u Like my
opinion!
---
yrs Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:50:42 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: To:
Ddrooy@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
8bit
Diane De Rooy
wrote:
>
> This is my first post to the list,
although I've been off and on in
> various
incarnations for the last six months. I've been hoping to learn
> something
from the subscribers, and I have.
> I've also seen that the list offers a
forum for people to express their
> opinions, as
well as their anger, and to advance agendas, whether factually
> or in a way
designed to manipulate with emotions.
> I'm a writer who lives in Seattle, and my
credentials include
> freelancing
for NPR as well as numerous print publications. I have a long
> association
with jack, going back to the summer of Woodstock, when I turned
> 18 and read
On The Road and contemplated grabbing my rucksack and running off
> with the lonesome
traveler who'd given me the book and taken my virginity (a
> fair swap, I
must say).
> The Road, for me, for the last near-30
years, has been as straight as a
> corkscrew,
but jack was always there somewhere. Someday I'll tell that story.
> Right now, I
have something more important to say.
> In the passionate environment that
surrounds all things Beat and
> people's
personal connections to them, and especially, to jack himself, all
> of us who
have come after the fact (not folks like Leon and Charles) seem to
> have staked
claims and established turf.
> As principal characters in the kerouac
saga burned bright and then
> burned out,
issues began to surface. The issue that has become the most
> addressable
is that one which was heatedly discussed here a month or so ago:
> the
*preservation* of jack's archives. It is part of that issue I wish to
> address,
with new information I acquired through research.
> I've been in touch with people who could
only be described as secondary
> to the life
of jack kerouac, asking questions and assembling a feature story.
> There are
also many people I have not met or interviewed. But two of the
> people I
have interviewed by phone and through thousands of words in letters
> are Rod
Anstee and Gerry Nicosia. I had the opportunity to form opinions
> about both
these men independently, since I did not know, at first, their
> history with
one another. Because of their individual credentials, and as I
> learned the
history they'd shared, determining reliability from either of
> them (as
sources for news or feature stories on archive or Estate issues) was
> essential to
writing the most accurate possible account.
> Rod posted a letter to this list
regarding the contents of Gerry's UMass
> archives,
and I observed the claims and reactions that followed, without
> comment. I
was sad and upset, as I think most of us were, to witness the
> conflict.
> After Rod voluntarily signed off the list
and the rest of the conflict
> played
itself out, I called Martha Mayo at UMass, for the specific purpose of
> verifying a)
what Rod had claimed and b) what Gerry had claimed. Here are
> some of my
notes from that interview, for your edification:
>
> ***Martha
Mayo interview, 1:40 to 1:48pm PDT, 17 June 1997 (Mogan Center,
> UMass
Lowell, 508/934-4997)****
>
> I gave my name and location, said I was a
writer, said I was traveling
> east later
this year and wondered about my chances for seeing the Memory Babe
> (MB) collection.
> "It's an open collection. Anyone can
view it," Mayo said. "It carries
> with it some
standard restrictions. But the major restriction is that letters
> from authors
cannot be photocopied, because they are copyrighted materials,
> copyrighted
by the Estate.
> "No photocopying is allowed of any
of Kerouac's letters, because many of
> them are
photocopies that came from other collections, and there are
> copyright
issues.
> "There is nothing original in this
collection," she said. "These are
> research
notes gathered from many sources."
> She said they're very understaffed right
now because school's out for
> the summer,
but that there is always someone available from 9am to 5pm,
> Monday
through Friday, to assist people who want to see the collection. She
> said people
aren't really using it that much, but that someone had recently
> come to town
and spent time viewing the collection. "Just make an appointment
> 3 or 4 days
in advance, letting us know when you'll be here."
> So, according to Martha Mayo a) the MB
collection is not closed; b) the
> MB
collection contains photocopies from other collections; c) anyone who asks
> permission
can see the collection; d) the collection is composed of
> photocopies
only; and e) no one is allowed to photocopy these photocopies.
> In short, Rod Anstee is right about the
MB collection and what s in it.
> I invite you to check these facts on your
own. If anyone in the Lowell
> area could
actually walk in and test this, that would be best.
> My point is this: when anyone claims
anything, especially in matters
> that are so
potentially inflammatory as this one is, verify the facts, if
> there are
any. There s no need to become personally involved or defensive
> about facts.
> One last note about threats of litigation
regarding libel, slander and
> copyright
infringement: read the Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual
> for a broad
overview of these legal terms and their ramifications. Truth is
> always a
legitimate defense.
> The rest of the information I ve gathered
over the last few months will
> be submitted
for publication to various markets. I will post a notice of any
> impending
publication to this list.
>
> Diane De
Rooy
> ddrooy@aol.com
>
membabe@aol.com
Well, I see that
this ugly beast raises its head again. I
am in the
process of
preparing a contract to represent Gerry N. with regard to
certain matters
involving the collection. Therefore, I
do not wish to
comment many of
the matters raised in this post, except to say, I note
that the author
did not actually go and obtain access to the archives.
Also, I
understand that the photocopies of letters contain Gerry's
notes. They are not photocopies from other
libraries, but from the
owner of the
letter, ie, perhaps Allen Ginsburg, etc.
It is true that
you can make fair
use of a letter, but you may not photocopy it unless
the library owns
the original. Thus, if Allen gave a
letter to Lowell,
and Gerry had
written notes on it, you could photocopy it.
But without
the original, the
library can not let you copy it.
I also will note
to the list that Martha Mayo did not respond to my
inquiry about the
origin of the copies in the file.
Further, I have
copies of letters
from scholars claiming that Martha Mayo denied them
access to the
archives because of threats by third parties.
So, I do
not believe that
this post and an telephone conversation with Martha
Mayo is
sufficient to draw any conclusion such that Rod is right and
Gerry is wrong.
It also is worthy
to note that UMass at Lowell has mixed in with Gerry's
archives other
documents. So, the fact that a document
is in the
archives does not
mean that it was placed there by Gerry.
Paul Marion,
and perhaps others
have placed materials in the library.
These are
objective facts, not my opinon. Martha
Mayo is correct to say
that photocopying
of documents that they do not own the orginals of is
not
permitted. She is incorrect to say that
permission of the author is
required to allow
the copying of letters. It is ownership
of the
document that
controls that issue.
I also note with
interest that this post appears almost a day or two
after Gerry
signed off the list. Diane, do you have
any affiliation
with Antsee,
Chaput, Sampas etc.? I know that there
have been some
other
developments in that arena lately, so I wonder about your timing.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:15:28 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: fear and loathing
Content-Type:
text
the current
(June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
published by
Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
"Johnny Depp
will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
based on Hunter
S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
Cox (_Sid and
Nancy_)."
Whaddya think of
that!
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/30/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Has anyone on the
list ever heard of Diane De Rooy. I ran
a 411 search
and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me. So, I
am very curious
about this. I know that there have been
phantom posts
from aol before
and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out.
If Diane is
a real person, I
apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
and the timing
makes it even more so. I apologize, for
an off topic
post.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:38:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
Rinaldo wrote:
Sherri,
i agree with yr
fwd message, i have already posted likes
message in march
97 & now i dont' know if nazi are attempting
to re-vote 'bout
this NG, if this the case, please send yr
fresh informaion,
'cuz i was pointed (in march 97) that the
vote was over
& the nazi NG spin off the Usenet... but time
perhaps are a
changin',
ciao e tanti
saluti da
Rinaldo.
Buona sera
Rinaldo...
Thanks... don't
vote again. Someone on this beat-l list
has informed me that
the thing is
"legendary"... which I
took to mean..
not real. He also pointed out something
that had troubled me
when I sent
it... I wholeheartedly reject
censorship... but i have a real big
problem with
organized hate.
Where do we draw
the line? This is is definitely a
literary issue. I think I
already have my
personal answer, but would like to know from any and all of
you if you think
there is ever a time when a group's ideology can be
considered
harmful enough to humankind that its "propaganda" should be held
somewhat in
check, not stifled or thwarted... maybe minimized. I even ask
this question in
trepidation because the notion of anyone's self expression
being limited
really sticks in my craw. Yet still....
Ciao, mi amici,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:47:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: fear and loathing
I say
WAHOO!!!!!!! thx for the info Mike
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Michael Skau
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 3:15 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: fear and loathing
the current
(June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
published by
Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
"Johnny Depp
will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
based on Hunter
S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
Cox (_Sid and
Nancy_)."
Whaddya think of
that!
Cordially,
Mike Skau
6/30/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:25:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Puzzled by this
censorship thread. I thought the idea
was that
expression of
ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
ideas? Just asking.
J Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:16:27 -0400
Reply-To: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: unsubscribing...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
oh geez,
before everyone gets on my case
about this
i need to explain that i already know
the commands,
but for some reason the server won't
accept my
address meaning that it won't let me
off. i've also
tried to contact the administrator, but
my letter was
returned with a vengence stating that there was no
one on the other end of the address i
tried. so if
you're reading this i'd like to know
what i should
try next.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:50:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Puzzled by
this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> expression
of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> ideas? Just asking.
>
Censorship of any
kind cannot be permitted in books or on usenet.
The
free expression
of ideas is what this country (and the beats) are about.
No matter how
much you loathe someone's ideas, they have a right to
express them as
much has you have a right to express your's.
An idea is
simply an idea.
People try to ban ideas they fear. Your own freedom of
speech can only
be protected by fighting for the free speech of all.
Enough said by
me.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:01:19 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
I know you're
right, Diane... guess emotions and
loathing got the best of
me... apologies.
Ciao Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:50 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Puzzled by
this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> expression
of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> ideas? Just asking.
>
Censorship of any
kind cannot be permitted in books or on usenet.
The
free expression
of ideas is what this country (and the beats) are about.
No matter how
much you loathe someone's ideas, they have a right to
express them as
much has you have a right to express your's.
An idea is
simply an idea.
People try to ban ideas they fear. Your own freedom of
speech can only
be protected by fighting for the free speech of all.
Enough said by
me.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:09:29 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Puzzled by
this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> expression
of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> was the
problem. Do we make the world a better place
by outlawing
> ideas? Just asking.
>
> J Stauffer
As much as I
despise the organized spread of hatred, I must say that I
have to agree
with James here. I don't want them in my
world, but they
are here. I suppose that teaching love and the truth
will work better
than pretending
like it is not real or censorship. Lies
like people
were not murdered
are sad. It is also sad that they
continue. But if
they get the
Nazi's today, and academy award winning films tomorrow, I
suspect the beat
list is not far behind.
ditto on that
James, and I don't mean me too!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:38:06 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Puzzled
by this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> >
expression of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> > was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> >
ideas? Just asking.
> >
> > J
Stauffer
> As much as I
despise the organized spread of hatred, I must say that I
> have to
agree with James here. I don't want them
in my world, but they
> are
here. I suppose that teaching love and
the truth will work better
> than
pretending like it is not real or censorship.
Lies like people
> were not
murdered are sad. It is also sad that
they continue. But if
> they get the
Nazi's today, and academy award winning films tomorrow, I
> suspect the
beat list is not far behind.
>
> ditto on
that James, and I don't mean me too!
>
> Peace,
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
just a brief note
to let people know that i am alive.
a wonderful shift
from God thread to Nazi thread. amazing
the extremes
in thought
patterns and wonder if a middle is somewhere in between and
whether it would
be worth typing about even if it were found.
am reading
Eisenhower's autobiography cause he's a Kansan and i went to
his funeral and
cause i read it and marked it all up once when i'd gone
far beyond the
edge of reason and cause the title is At Ease and Ease is
something i long
to find in life.
wonder sometimes
about these neo-"Nazis". not
certain that they are
deserving of the
label. this is misunderstandable i
imagine but frankly
from what i've
seen and heard of these folks in America they are rank
amateurs without
a clue what ultimate evil even looks like -- let alone
being anywhere
close to gaining the influence and power that precedes
the actions of
evil connected with the Nazis. Not that
i'm a big fan of
evil or anything
- but let's give the devil and Hitler their due and not
let folks think
they're in the same league just by shaving heads and
screaming
insanities. certain labels Nazis
included really are
something one
would have to earn i would think and i've not yet learned
of significant
actions in the arena of evil taken by said folks that
puts them under
the shadowy cloak of evil the Fuhrer presented to the
world.
of course here in
Kansas i may be misinformed :)
take care all,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:42:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: burroughs story
today my boss (an
english teacher) told me that he went to a bar and had a
drink with
william burroughs once. I almost
fainted.
here is my sycophantic poem of
unadulterated obsequiousness dedicated to
this great genius
of the 20th century (other 20th cent. genii: picasso,
breton,
duchamp...):
bill-ee bill
you de man
you de boss
you de boss-man
yes suh yes suh
3 bags full
Lawrence, Kansas
is so far, so far, so far!
Why do i hafta
work dis damn job?
all i wanna do is
a boom-boom-boom
and a zoom-zoom!
(hand of doom)!
i'm goin' to see
you in September cause i'm going away
(far away! far
away!)
and i might not
come back;
and right now
Lawrence Kansas feels like the center of the universe.
a-boom,
BIP-----a-boom-BIP!
I just want to
look into your eyes and know that you are real.
just once.
You spin my
synapses into extatic convulsions
of realization
that there is the possibility
that maybe
and it's a big
"IF"
....there's hope
in a grain of sand.
I'l make you
proud of me, daddy-o!
(this is possibly
the worst poem ever written by a human being, maybe isn't a
poem at all, but
hey, i'm not the only one who posts crappy stuff on this
list)
AHEM AHEM AHEM
(yes, i clear my
throat in YOUR direction, my friend)
----------Maya<<<has
frog in throat. Reaches in and gropes
around, finally
manages to grab
frog by the leg. Pulls frog out. Notices
that frog's wisened
eyes have uncanny
resmblance to William s Burroughs'.......>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:49:15 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: two beats in one state meet
In a message
dated 97-06-29 17:01:38 EDT, you write:
<<
hi all. i dont want to make this into chatroom
city, but did want to tell
you all that diane carter (my editor from mad
magazine and journalist in
her own write) and i met for lunch. and diane
kept her lunch down after
being assaulted verbally by my own recordings
of my recent pomes. that's
bein in the trenches let me tell you. and a
perceptive ear as well as a
comely eye, diane.
thanks
leon, you were right all along!
mc >>
I LOVE MAD
MAGAZINE!!! Does anyone know any cool old comic books or mags? I
mean funny
ones? Ones that make fun of anything and
everything
indiscriminately?
please let me
know!
--maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:16:07 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: chicago
The greatest book
I've read on Chicago since Nelson Algren is: Beneath The
Empire of the
Birds by Carl Watson, Apathy Press Poets, T. Diventi, ed. 409
Kent Ave.
Brooklyn, NY 11211, 718-218-8634. Cover
design by Joe Coleman who
did the cover for
Jack Black's You Can't Win.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:19:31 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: burroughs story
too much, man...
i'm flying,
flying
higher, higher
and a bippidy
boppidy boo!!! <tremendous
laughter>
Great to have
some good laughs... you go girl!
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Maya Gorton
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 7:42 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: burroughs story
today my boss (an
english teacher) told me that he went to a bar and had a
drink with
william burroughs once. I almost
fainted.
here is my sycophantic poem of
unadulterated obsequiousness dedicated to
this great genius
of the 20th century (other 20th cent. genii: picasso,
breton, duchamp...):
bill-ee bill
you de man
you de boss
you de boss-man
yes suh yes suh
3 bags full
Lawrence, Kansas
is so far, so far, so far!
Why do i hafta
work dis damn job?
all i wanna do is
a boom-boom-boom
and a zoom-zoom!
(hand of doom)!
i'm goin' to see
you in September cause i'm going away
(far away! far
away!)
and i might not
come back;
and right now
Lawrence Kansas feels like the center of the universe.
a-boom,
BIP-----a-boom-BIP!
I just want to
look into your eyes and know that you are real.
just once.
You spin my
synapses into extatic convulsions
of realization
that there is the possibility
that maybe
and it's a big
"IF"
....there's hope
in a grain of sand.
I'l make you
proud of me, daddy-o!
(this is possibly
the worst poem ever written by a human being, maybe isn't a
poem at all, but
hey, i'm not the only one who posts crappy stuff on this
list)
AHEM AHEM AHEM
(yes, i clear my
throat in YOUR direction, my friend)
----------Maya<<<has
frog in throat. Reaches in and gropes
around, finally
manages to grab
frog by the leg. Pulls frog out. Notices
that frog's wisened
eyes have uncanny
resmblance to William s Burroughs'.......>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:30:27 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: high coup (haiku)
the sweet smell
of summer leaves,
dark green and
steaming in the sunny, buzzing air.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:35:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
In a message
dated 97-06-30 14:23:33 EDT, you write:
<< Charles,
Cool... and although there is a lot of pablum,
I hope you don't mind the
medium growing and expanding beyond it
origins... it would be dead if it
didn't.
By the way, I am somewhat new to Beat lit,
although the ideologies are what
I
cut my teeth on. So please forgive me when I say that I am
unfamiliar with
your work, but would like to change that. Does City Lights publish you?
And
what would you suggest as my first read?
>>
City Lights
published the first edition of Last of the Moccasins and the poem
Apocalypse in
City Lights Journal which was later brought out as a chapbook
handset and
designed by Dave Haselwood in SF. Since then I have had nothing
to do with City
Lights.
Try the following
site as a primer: www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html, click
to Goblin, Room
Temperature, etc. My published work is
out of print except
the second
American edition of Last of the Moccasins which is available from
Jeff at Waterrow.
That should cut you through the time warp.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:27:16 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Mad Magazine
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
I always loved
the word plays they did back in the 60's like:
She drove off in
a huff. and it would have a drawing of a
woman in a
car that looked
like a Nash Metropolitan. (Hey Charles, did you ever
have a
Nash!!!! Those were some cherry
wheels. Too bad they sold out
to Rambler,
American, Chrysler.), etc. Those were
some of the best
intellectual
stuff around on any level. Til National
Lampoon came
along. It raised the ante.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Dreams
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Dreams
In a dream, God
said to me:
"Don't you
EVER mention my name on
the Beat List
again."
I figured she was
just joking!
Like when the
animals were
Brought to Adam,
"He called
it an elephant!!!"
"HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!"
Does God ever
make idol threats
Against you in
your sleep?
I dreamed I saw
God and
Maya's face was
on him.
Then I thought, I
don't
Know Maya's face.
Then I thought,
well,
This is a dream.
So, maybe it was
her face?
Then I went
behind the
Big screen where
my cat
Was swatting at a
roach,
And there was
that guy
That looked like
the guy
>From Mad
Magazine.
He said,
"What, God worry?"
So, I am
wondering
If I should take
it all
Seriously or not.
Hey, the phone
just rang.
It's God, he
wants to
Play handball.
Zeus is out of
town.
Hera won't leave
him home alone.
I told him one on
one full court,
But I don't do
handball.
We have a $35.00
bet.
I wonder where he
is planning on parking?
rbk 6/30/97
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:58:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: WARNING! non-beat! do not read!
(I know i have a
problem with my trigger-happy "send" finger, but you read
the warning and
you did this to yourself, cats)
theremin
nightmare swims through greenly closed eyes
the red dots are
here again
llllllllike
doppler test skinner boxes,
inkblots reading
my mind in the dark
so bad for your eyes the incision must be made
at the precise point of damn
i forgot to save
it again so it's lost forever but i remember to brush my
teeth.
the precise point
of intersection between ear and soul#3.
Don't be afraid,
you've been there all along.
There are many
concepts of time which have not been explored sufficiently in
our flat, flat,
flat western world and these are the following:
time as
distance. Time = how long it takes to
get from A to B.
time as circular.
No explanation needed we all know about hinduism, etc.
what about mayas and aztecs, too? circular and
repetitive. Sun moves in
circle.(some
heretics suggest it is we who move! but this is obviously a lie)
time as defined
by what you are doing, your activities.
For example, not 12
o'clock but
"llunchtime", etc. we do it all the time.
time and whether
or not you can do what you want with it, degree of choice of
what to do with
it as reflecting your socio-economic class.
America today.
---maya (god is
on the Evolutionary Level Above Human)
(Time as
non-existent,non-expressable constant evolution of all things
always) (after
all this time in our quantifiable view of life, our world is
still so very
flat, so very flat!)
Resounding
platitudes are not limited to this list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:00:07 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: fear and loathing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Actually, Depp
and Cox had quite a difference in opinion of how the book
should be filmed,
and Cox has been dropped. Last time I heard filming is
now set for early
July with Terry Gilliam doing the honors.
Adrien
Michael Skau
wrote:
>
> the current
(June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
> published by
Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
> "Johnny
Depp will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
> based on
Hunter S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
> Cox (_Sid
and Nancy_)."
> Whaddya
think of that!
> Cordially,
> Mike Skau
> 6/30/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:09:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat core
Comments: To:
"neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@MAINSERVER.DISCOVLAND.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33B54E5D.5978@discovland.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN;
charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> J. Stauffer
wrote:
>
> > Does
anyone have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> > restore
some minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> >
completely evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> > more
Kozmic Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness?
>
> Just
finished reading Kerouac's 'Mexico City Blues'. It gets stronger as
> you read it.
I have come to the conclusion that his Blues choruses must
> be read
drunk, or with at least a buzz, the rhythms jump out easier. It
> is also
closer to his state while writing them.
>
> Anybody read
Bob Kaufman? he's a real character.
i see what you
mean--at least partially; however, my beat lit students
have just waded
through some of the choruses--and i think they found them
quite lucid and
indeed huzzah magical even without weed or booze; of
course Jack wrote
many (?) of them on a coffee and pot high...but then
again their tenor
and tone and imagery and such are red and right for any
(well, pretty
much any) state of mind. my students were very impressed
byt michael
mcclure's notion that MCB is the greatest long religious poem
in the 20th
century. quite an imprimateur. of course then MCB would beat
out Eliot's
Wasteland--which is quite a wow religious poem in its own
right!
>
Steve R. Smith
Dept. of English
Pacific
University
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:12:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
In a message
dated 97-06-30 13:59:50 EDT, you write:
<< ok. I'm
a big fan of the river. >>
Well, I hate to
be a bore, but sometimes it seems that those who discovered
the beats seem to
frame them or freeze them in time like a fast food carry
out. One of the
poet's poet who influenced them all wrote a poem titled The
River. It used to
be in his Brooklyn Bridge collection. Harte Crane was
notoriously
homosexual, though like Whitman it was deseminated throughout his
vision. He was
the first poet I've read who so openly used the breath to end
lines, combined
and invented words from what was around him, embraced his
lovers, relied
heavily on spontenaeity for his images and vision. I think it
is The River that
provides an example of all these things that made his poety
great and
acknowledged rather secretly by all those who came later,
especially the
beats. That poem, or one, begins with about a half page of
breath, combining
ads "ripped in the guaranteed corner" and when the breath
runs out, the
next breath softens with "and left three men sitting on the
tracks/watching
tailights wizen and converge." I don't have his book, so this
is recalled from
the 50's. But I'm sometimes perplexed with the "Alpha and
Omega" sense
that surrounds the "discovery" of the beats?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:29:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Visionaries (Eliot/Ginsberg again,
for Michael Skau & et al)
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33B763DB.63BC@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 30 Jun
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Now that
I've reread some Eliot, I am ready to address a few points from
> earlier
Eliot/visionary discussion.
>
> I think
there needs to be a distinction between a poet that writes
> symbolically
and a visionary. Eliot is really
depressing. Eliot saw
> what was
wrong, spiritually, but accepted "death-in-life,"
>
> (Prufrock)
> "Do I
dare disturb the universe?"
>
> "I am
no prophet--and there's no great matter;
> I have seen
the moment of my greatness flicker,
> And I have
seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker.
> And in
short, I was afraid."
>
> Eliot saw
the vision, saw what was necessary to do, but could not rise to
> the
task. The visionary poet must in some
meaning of the term, be a
> prophet,
rail against the status quo, and in doing so put forth a his own
> positive
vision of what is possible. He must as
Chris Dumond, so
> articulately
put, in another post about Ginsberg, "[rain] life, pride,
> and love on
us all." Blake took the work of
other writers, like Milton,
> and put his
vision over their's in a way that spread out, and widened,
> set up his
own system, of what was and what could be.
>
> The hope in
the Wasteland is faint, really faint, the sound of thunder
> there but
not resonant, not awakening, at least not yet.
The grass is
> singing but
it is not fully alive. Not in the way
Whitman or Ginsberg
> sang or were
fully alive. A visionary says "this
is what I see" and
> projects his
vision out there, loudly.
>
> Eliot
writes,
> "No! I
am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
> Am an
attendant lord, one that will do
> To swell a
progress, start a scene or two,
> Advise the
prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
> Deferential,
glad to be of use,
> Politic,
cautious, and meticulous;
> Full of high
sentence, but a bit obtuse"
>
> Eliot used
symbols well, layering in metaphoric and metaphysical
> dimensions,
the fire and rose are one, even cyclic sometimes in his view
> of words and
history, but often his words are devoid of power, the power
> to change,
to do anymore than accept his lot. A
true visionary
> transforms
experience, their experience and our experience. In Howl,
> Ginsberg
raged against America, but he also saw the possibility for the
> hope that
rises up in our humanness. Eliot is not
grasping upon the
> mermaid,
rising with her cutching rebirth, he is looking at it from afar.
> I would describe his voice not so much as a
visionary one as one that
> saw what was
possible, but was unable to grasp whatever he needed to
> transcend
his condition.
> DC
>
Hi, Diane. But
there is the WAY in the Wasteland--the regenerative
spirit and flesh
available through the grail and the knight moving
through the
pilgrimage to it. yes, the Wasteland is bleak (blook,
perhaps, in
Kerouac's term) (or blear!), but there is Eliot's own (yes,
the intentional
fallacy rears up here) faith. this does come through the
poem. no question
i see Eliot as a visionary--like Blake and Ginsberg.
It's just they
saw visions in different tone and different tenor. Of
course Blake and
Ginsberg would not see through the same glass as Eliot
in all his rather
conservative protestantisms, but they all three of
them SAW visions,
i tend to see "visionary" poet as poet who sees of
beyond and
through the "veils"--whatever the veils may be. Eliot could be
such a stick in
the bloody mud, but he saw the bloody mud and clear on
through the
bloody comedy (Kerouac's note in Desolation Angels) to "what
came next."
i am blah blahing
here, but...
Steve R. Smith
English Dept.
Pacific Univ.
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:10:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams
Hahahahahaha!!
so why didn't you
tell him to call Thor? Bad news if god
plays a joke on you
and moves the no
parking signs, then wins the game.....
<hehehe> you be
broke, big daddy
Thanks for the
grins,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 8:36 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Dreams
Dreams
In a dream, God
said to me:
"Don't you
EVER mention my name on
the Beat List
again."
I figured she was
just joking!
Like when the
animals were
Brought to Adam,
"He called
it an elephant!!!"
"HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!"
Does God ever
make idol threats
Against you in
your sleep?
I dreamed I saw
God and
Maya's face was
on him.
Then I thought, I
don't
Know Maya's face.
Then I thought,
well,
This is a dream.
So, maybe it was
her face?
Then I went
behind the
Big screen where
my cat
Was swatting at a
roach,
And there was
that guy
That looked like
the guy
>From Mad
Magazine.
He said,
"What, God worry?"
So, I am
wondering
If I should take
it all
Seriously or not.
Hey, the phone
just rang.
It's God, he
wants to
Play handball.
Zeus is out of
town.
Hera won't leave
him home alone.
I told him one on
one full court,
But I don't do
handball.
We have a $35.00
bet.
I wonder where he
is planning on parking?
rbk 6/30/97
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:39 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Standing here
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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7bit
Standing Here
Standing here,
An outcast
within.
Swim in light,
A well meant vow.
I lack the
courage,
To maintain until
I meet my rebirth
again.
I face my dreams,
They, so like an
angry wife,
Who cannot be
divorced,
Except.
The debasing
night.
To become honest.
Moment's realized
revelation,
Years of seconds,
Moments of years,
My demons ARE
mine.
This stand, may
not be unique,
But, it's the only
one I have.
Hidden too long.
I lack the
courage,
To maintain
Until my rebirth
again.
Standing here.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:42:24 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dEAR fRIENDS,
i'm noticed in
advance many people disagree with
censored the NG
nazi, anyway i agree with people
who want that
hate & dont' forget that hitler gang
was let talked in
past & from word to word people
agree with the
project & then olocausto became a reality,
word arent'
facts, maybe but in politics there a bit
different matter
i suppose,
tHanx alot for yr
opinions my friends,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
* I write peotry
because Ezra Pound saw an ivory tower,
[bet on one wrong horse... ---allen
ginsberg *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:36:31 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: high coup (haiku)
In-Reply-To:
<970630233024_340215299@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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<<oh
my>>
At 8:30 PM -0700
6/30/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> the sweet
smell of summer leaves,
> dark green
and steaming in the sunny, buzzing air.
>
> m
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:41:37 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams
In-Reply-To: <33B87B51.73D3527@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<nice>>
At 8:36 PM -0700
6/30/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Dreams
>
> In a dream,
God said to me:
> "Don't
you EVER mention my name on
> the Beat
List again."
> I figured
she was just joking!
> Like when
the animals were
> Brought to
Adam,
> "He
called it an elephant!!!"
>
"HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!"
> Does God
ever make idol threats
> Against you
in your sleep?
> I dreamed I
saw God and
> Maya's face was
on him.
> Then I
thought, I don't
> Know Maya's
face.
> Then I
thought, well,
> This is a
dream.
> So, maybe it
was her face?
> Then I went
behind the
> Big screen
where my cat
> Was swatting
at a roach,
> And there
was that guy
> That looked
like the guy
> >From Mad
Magazine.
> He said,
"What, God worry?"
> So, I am
wondering
> If I should
take it all
> Seriously or
not.
> Hey, the
phone just rang.
> It's God, he
wants to
> Play
handball.
> Zeus is out
of town.
> Hera won't
leave him home alone.
> I told him
one on one full court,
> But I don't
do handball.
> We have a
$35.00 bet.
> I wonder
where he is planning on parking?
>
> rbk 6/30/97
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:46:38 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: WARNING! non-beat! do not read!
In-Reply-To:
<970630235821_523982585@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<laugh>> <<good health, Maya>>
<<hm>>
At 8:58 PM -0700
6/30/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> (I know i
have a problem with my trigger-happy "send" finger, but you read
> the warning
and you did this to yourself, cats)
>
>
> theremin
nightmare swims through greenly closed eyes
> the red dots
are here again
> llllllllike
doppler test skinner boxes,
> inkblots
reading my mind in the dark
>
> so bad for your eyes the incision must be
made at the precise point of damn
> i forgot to
save it again so it's lost forever but i remember to brush my
> teeth.
> the precise
point of intersection between ear and soul#3.
> Don't be
afraid, you've been there all along.
>
> There are
many concepts of time which have not been explored sufficiently in
> our flat,
flat, flat western world and these are the following:
>
> time as
distance. Time = how long it takes to
get from A to B.
>
> time as
circular. No explanation needed we all know about hinduism, etc.
> what about mayas and aztecs, too? circular
and repetitive. Sun moves in
> circle.(some
heretics suggest it is we who move! but this is obviously a lie)
>
> time as
defined by what you are doing, your activities.
For example, not 12
> o'clock but
"llunchtime", etc. we do it all the time.
>
> time and
whether or not you can do what you want with it, degree of choice of
> what to do
with it as reflecting your socio-economic class. America today.
>
> ---maya (god
is on the Evolutionary Level Above Human)
> (Time as
non-existent,non-expressable constant evolution of all things
> always)
(after all this time in our quantifiable view of life, our world is
> still so
very flat, so very flat!)
>
> Resounding
platitudes are not limited to this list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:50:21 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
In-Reply-To: <970701001250_174279242@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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<<and what
were we saying about critics, so few, so rare?>>
At 9:12 PM -0700
6/30/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-06-30 13:59:50 EDT, you write:
>
> << ok.
I'm a big fan of the river. >>
> Well, I hate
to be a bore, but sometimes it seems that those who discovered
> the beats
seem to frame them or freeze them in time like a fast food carry
> out. One of
the poet's poet who influenced them all wrote a poem titled The
> River. It
used to be in his Brooklyn Bridge collection. Harte Crane was
> notoriously
homosexual, though like Whitman it was deseminated throughout his
> vision. He
was the first poet I've read who so openly used the breath to end
> lines,
combined and invented words from what was around him, embraced his
> lovers,
relied heavily on spontenaeity for his images and vision. I think it
> is The River
that provides an example of all these things that made his poety
> great and
acknowledged rather secretly by all those who came later,
> especially
the beats. That poem, or one, begins with about a half page of
> breath,
combining ads "ripped in the guaranteed corner" and when the breath
> runs out, the
next breath softens with "and left three men sitting on the
>
tracks/watching tailights wizen and converge." I don't have his book, so
this
> is recalled
from the 50's. But I'm sometimes perplexed with the "Alpha and
> Omega"
sense that surrounds the "discovery" of the beats?
> Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:56:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Standing here
In-Reply-To: <33B88D52.39EBA75F@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I don't know what
you poety freaks are all cryin about tonight.
I know
Xena's dead, I
know. I know. but tune in next
week. Xena will ride
again!! <<ahem>> Douglas
At 9:53 PM -0700
6/30/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Standing
Here
>
> Standing
here,
> An outcast
within.
> Swim in
light,
> A well meant
vow.
>
> I lack the
courage,
> To maintain
until
> I meet my
rebirth again.
> I face my
dreams,
> They, so
like an angry wife,
> Who cannot
be divorced,
> Except.
>
> The debasing
night.
> To become
honest.
> Moment's
realized revelation,
> Years of
seconds,
> Moments of
years,
> My demons
ARE mine.
>
> This stand,
may not be unique,
> But, it's
the only one I have.
>
> Hidden too
long.
> I lack the
courage,
> To maintain
> Until my
rebirth again.
>
> Standing
here.
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:18:28 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Poet
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Diane Carter
wrote:
> If poetry
provides the answers, who asks the question?
The poet? Ah,
> sorry folks,
won't follow that line of line of thought any farther...
We don't have to
worry about the origins of the questions. The poet
provides the
answers, his answers = his truth ; and there are many
answers = many
truths. As a reader, you choose which answers fit you
best.
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:13:33 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970701074224.00689a48@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I think I feel
that people will
watch and wait
see what happens
because you can't
be everywhere be
everything
certainly not
against
everything
my god
life is about
breathing
about swimming
<<peeing in
the pool>>
and about running
always about
running
time takes a
cigarette <<david bowie>>
Nazies, what do I
care?
I think I feel
olo cost
that's why people
don't agree
censsssor ship is
bad!!!
douglas
At 10:42 PM -0700
6/30/97, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> dEAR
fRIENDS,
> i'm noticed
in advance many people disagree with
> censored the
NG nazi, anyway i agree with people
> who want
that hate & dont' forget that hitler gang
> was let
talked in past & from word to word people
> agree with
the project & then olocausto became a reality,
> word arent'
facts, maybe but in politics there a bit
> different
matter i suppose,
> tHanx alot
for yr opinions my friends,
> ---
> yrs
> Rinaldo.
> * I write
peotry because Ezra Pound saw an ivory tower,
> [bet on one wrong horse... ---allen
ginsberg *
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:25:23 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: fear and loathing
In-Reply-To: <33B88EC4.4ABC@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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our little surfer
surfer dude
he's come a long
way
barns having
fallen on him
riding buck back
high rollin
freakin dancin
death boogy in
little buddha,
mister dylan's dog
a patti smith
poem, thank you
future comotose
future
can you take a
guess
what would you
do?
star makes the
money
cutts the funny
gets the honey
fuck me?
fuck me?
fuck you
quit a difference
of opinion, obviously. on his way to
<<vegas>>
gott any heroine?
need heroine?
<<get back
in the car man>>
jagged paintings
hanging loosely
droppin pills and
pepsies
heroine <<where the qualudes, man?>>
lawyers will have
a mess with this one man
sharks!! eat him up
sharks!! eat him up
<<shut up
Nancy!!>> <<Nancy girl>> <<nancy girl>>
<<adrian!!>>
<<rocky??>> <<Dr.
Scott!!>> <<huh??>>
geez, what kinda
of a fear and loathing can we be expecting now?
Terry
Gilliam's pretty
cool... if only River Phoenix hadn't
died... <<man>>
Douglas
At 10:00 PM -0700
6/30/97, Adrien Begrand wrote:
> Actually,
Depp and Cox had quite a difference in opinion of how the book
> should be
filmed, and Cox has been dropped. Last time I heard filming is
> now set for
early July with Terry Gilliam doing the honors.
>
> Adrien
>
> Michael Skau
wrote:
> >
> > the
current (June/July 1997) issue of Facets Features, an update
> >
published by Facets Multimedia has the following entry:
> >
"Johnny Depp will star in _Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_, which is
> > based
on Hunter S. Thompson's novel and will be directed by Alex
> > Cox
(_Sid and Nancy_)."
> > Whaddya
think of that!
> >
Cordially,
> > Mike
Skau
> > 6/30/97
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save it, just
keep it off my wave is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:27:58 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Genius
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Maya wrote:
> (this is
possibly the worst poem ever written by a human being, maybe isn't a
> poem at all,
but hey, i'm not the only one who posts crappy stuff on this
> list)
There's no need
for this. Not enough time in the world to double doubt.
Remember #29 on
Kerouac's list: everything you write is pure genius
[paraphrase].
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:12:03 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:13:33 -0700
>From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
>I think I
feel
>that people
will watch and wait
>see what
happens because you can't
>be everywhere
be everything
>certainly not
against
>everything
>my god
>
>life is about
breathing
>about
swimming
><<peeing
in the pool>>
>and about
running
>always about
running
>
>time takes a
cigarette <<david bowie>>
>
>Nazies, what
do I care?
>I think I
feel
>olo cost
>that's why
people don't agree
>censsssor
ship is bad!!!
>
>douglas
>
>At 10:42 PM
-0700 6/30/97, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>
>> dEAR
fRIENDS,
>> i'm
noticed in advance many people disagree with
>> censored
the NG nazi, anyway i agree with people
>> who want
that hate & dont' forget that hitler gang
>> was let
talked in past & from word to word people
>> agree
with the project & then olocausto became a reality,
>> word
arent' facts, maybe but in politics there a bit
>>
different matter i suppose,
>> tHanx
alot for yr opinions my friends,
>> ---
>> yrs
>> Rinaldo.
>> * I
write peotry because Ezra Pound saw an ivory tower,
>> [bet on one wrong horse... ---allen
ginsberg *
>
>
>http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
>save it, just
keep it off my wave is
> -- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
>
dEAR,
i agree with u
but i forced myself to forget that
Ezra Pound IS a
fascist & put a line between poetry
& politics,
but this not possible in every case,
the poetry as i
known born in italy with San Francesco
& then with
Dante Alighieri & wasnt' so clear that
was ONLY lit,
poetry was POLITICS at his dawn its' no
doubt, & what
i must say 'cuz im' born in a patria who
was the land
where fascism was grown...
have my love,
Rinaldo. * a not
competent beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:46:58 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: desperately seeking dave
breithaupt!/radio show tape!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
sorry folks tried
to backchannel the info; couldnt;
does anyone have
db(breithaupt)'s snail mail address?
db: i got a
package for you with an empty address.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:03:27 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: cc:
membabe@aol.com
In-Reply-To: <33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
Yes. Diane organized a virtual memorial for Allen
Ginsberg within a week
of his death on
the America Online Beat Generation Chat Room.
The several
of us who logged
on that morning remembered the best of Allen's work and
life. We shared stories and posted excerpts from
his work. It was one of
the better
memorials I attended that month.
Since then, we
have exchanged occasional emails; and I have tried to return
to the Beat
Generation Chat Room, but I always seem to turn up when the
room is empty.
I have found
Diane to be honest, considerate, compassionate--and a very
good writer. She is a professional. I do not know enough about the
details of the
estate controversy to comment on the nuances of the
arguments. I was one of those BEAT-L subscribers who was
not turned off by
the arguments
over the estate these past few weeks. As
a scholar who
periodically must
make use of closed-stack library collections--and as a
former Rare Books
staffer--I found the arguments worth reading.
And I found
nothing in Diane's posting that was outrageous.
Your
disagreements are
well taken, as was your reminder that an actual visit to
the Lowell
archives would constitute stronger evidence than would a
telephone call to
the archives.
>I also note
with interest that this post appears almost a day or two
>after Gerry
signed off the list.
Did Gerry post a
notice to the list that he was signing off?
If so, then I
understand why
you said the above, and I'm sorry that I missed Gerry's
posting. I have been swamped with work lately, and
I've been unable to do
more than save
the postings I've wanted to respond to (visionary poetry,
Ginsberg &
Eliot) and hope to respond later.
But if Gerry did
not give public notice that he was leaving, then how would
Diane--or any of
us--know he was gone? I know that
listservs have a
command (I can't
remember right now because it is saved in another file)
that will allow
you to get a list of all current subscribers.
I tried this
for BEAT-L about
two years ago, and was told that this particular command
was blocked. As far as I know, the subscriber list is
confidential. Thus,
I'm not sure how
Diane would know Gerry had signed off.
>I ran a 411
search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me.
I am probably
more technologically challenged than I think I am. Please
explain what a
"411" search is. The closest
analogue I can come up with is
a directory
assistance telephone search, which we can do locally by
dialling
"411."
Do you mean a
finger search? If so, then rest
assured: the various times
that I have tried
finger searches on folks who belong to AOL, I have
received no
information. As far as I can tell, AOL
blocks finger searches.
Every "finger" attempt to find a
login name--and information on login
frequency--for an
AOL user will turn up nothing.
Again, maybe I'm
missing the "411" code. Or
maybe there is a way to
subvert AOL's
finger-blocking.
>So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
I am sorry, too,
for the off topic post. I just wanted to
write to let you
know what I know
of Diane as a real person. By writing
this, I do not
intend to involve
myself in the estate controversy, nor do I purport to
have relevant
knowledge of the controversy. I am not taking sides on any of
the issues that
have emerged from the estate arguments. I hope this helps.
Take care--
Peace--
Tony
atrigili@lynx.neu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:37:39 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: WHITMAN
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sherri wrote:
><grins>
so then, leo, was your thot on the beam, were you too lazy or scare=
d
>of pain, or
does it mean that blood-letting is not required? <still
>giggling> Ciao, Sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
>=3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=3DFCenza?=3D
>Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 2:07 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Whitman
>
>Douglas
wrote:
>
>><<still
digging>>
>>
>>>From: Ksenija
Simic[SMTP:ksenija@GALOIS.MI.SANU.AC.YU]
>>>
>>>"Camarado,
>>>this
is not a book!
>>>Who
touches this, touches the man."
>>
>>Note to
myself: explore book covers of
beats. first editions ---->
>>etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
>>bind...
;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
>>room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
>>
>>Douglas <<obese in thought, thin on restraint>>
>
>I thought I
could only be a
>writer if I
pushed a book against
>my lips until
i bled.
>
>=3D46unny
thought.
>
>I dented my
lip and tasted the
>book, but I
didn't bleed.
>
>-leo
it was a silly
thought. i should've been waiting for the book to bleed.
Emerson said
something about words being vascular; anyway, if you cut them
they will bleed.
leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:12:51 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: God
<<still digging>>
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>Joseph
Neudorfer writ
>
> >= there
is nothing holding us back from knowing all, but there is
> >no
> >physical
possibility of reaching that 'all-knowledge', you would soon
> >swim in
insanity . . . hense Jehovah is crazy . . . that is why even
> >Moses,
the figure who was in Yahweh's presence, was not actually face
>to
> >face.
When Moses asked Yahweh to reveal himself (one of the many times
> >on the
mountains, after the burning bush), Yahweh only permitted Moses
> >to
observe his back and shoulders - which on one level is a paradox in
>
itself.>>
>
> Penn,
Douglas, K wrote:
> and is this
why Andre Breton says "beauty must be repulsive"?? To reach
> 'all-beauty'
would one soon be repulsed by everything??
and where to
>go
> from
there? back down the mountain?? [[please don't let me ask about
> the
"burning bush" in this context, please don't let me ask, please...
>
<<laughing>>
>
> Still wish
you would explain that Yahweh/Moses ---> back/shoulders
>
paradox. Maybe Yahweh was an ugly mofo,
having a badhair day, and just
> decided to
be shy? somewhat kidding, but
curious <<answer via
>
>backchannel if necessary>>
>
The more I think
about Joseph's post of reaching all-knowledge as
swimming in
insanity and hense Jehovah is crazy, the more right on target
I see it. I took the Moses observing back &
shoulders analogy to mean
that if Moses
[we] saw the face of God, we would indeed go insane. Can
you even start to
imagine what grasping the wholeness of human knowledge
and the universe
in one instant would be like? Much
better that we grasp
at meanings
broken down into bits, the god talked about in churches seen
in human terms,
the idea of father, children, Jesus, all put in a human
mythological
context so our feeble minds can cope.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:17:34 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Puzzled
by this censorship thread. I thought the
idea was that
> >
expression of ideas, however dead wrong they are was permitted. Action
> > was the
problem. Do we make the world a better
place by outlawing
> >
ideas? Just asking.
> >
>
> Censorship
of any kind cannot be permitted in books or on usenet. The
> free
expression of ideas is what this country (and the beats) are about.
> No matter
how much you loathe someone's ideas, they have a right to
> express them
as much has you have a right to express your's.
An idea is
> simply an
idea. People try to ban ideas they fear. Your own freedom of
> speech can
only be protected by fighting for the free speech of all.
> Enough said
by me.
> DC
just
curious...this country? isn't this the net...and a world-wide list?
Couldn't anybody,
even joe kerouac over in Somalia, join?
Are our first
amendmentment
rights protected Throws the ball to Bentz :)
I am actually
curious about this one, because I chat over at alamak at
think cafe, and I
go a number of rounds on whether a public site, though
privately
maintained, can censor ideas. I would
appreciate any insights
you could
provide.
also...I am sure I could get a Beat
chat room set up at optichat for
folks that wanted
to talk...but there is a cursing filter...so in order
to truly curse,
you have to do so creatively.
barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:24:31 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi AGAIN!!!.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970701131203.0068b834@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<fighting
a poundig head>> Rinaldo writ:
> dEAR,
> i agree with
u but i forced myself to forget that
> Ezra Pound
IS a fascist & put a line between poetry
> &
politics, but this not possible in every case,
> the poetry
as i known born in italy with San Francesco
> & then
with Dante Alighieri & wasnt' so clear that
> was ONLY
lit, poetry was POLITICS at his dawn its' no
> doubt, &
what i must say 'cuz im' born in a patria who
> was the land
where fascism was grown...
> have my
love,
> Rinaldo. * a
not competent beet *
sometimes the
patient cannot be saved must be cutout
32 x 32 they
stand in slide specimens lines //gris gris
then pasted and
photoshoped later //no no no no
Robert
Rauschenberg got his start with Dante too
a bunch of
illustrated cantos that won him recognition
got the 1964?
Venice Biennial
then picked a
fight with M. Cunningham the dancer
Jasper Johns his
lover
and he's been
slightly drunk political since
travelling to
china, chilie, russia indonesia?
<<ROCI>>
his visuals and
hunchback versace smile
//weapons for
peace
don't know Ezra
Pound at all
"Salo"
by piero pasolini has my love
a fetching
carrot, // Douglas
"If you love
your fun, die for it!" --Jello
Biafra
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:22:09 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re:
<<Diane>>, di prima, <<beauty>>
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> I agree
words can be nothing/everything holy (as Ginsberg would
> apparently
define), but I still must hold onto a societal view of
>
"beauty" (and a few other choice words). beauty needs to go for a ride
> with me for
a while longer. this I must see. [[oh..exhale..]] why is
> it so hard
to give up words? they answer so many
questions.
>
> "what are words for, when nobody
listens any more for
> [....] there's no use talking
all..." [missing persons]
>
What you will
find is that if you think about a word long enough it will
lose all of it's
meaning. It will become frayed, and
fragmented, and
suddenly you will
be thrust into the potentional absurdity of the
collective
unconscious. You will see where Kerouac
and Joyce were going,
the place where
one word means a million things at many levels, syllables
thrown together
in that vast space we call the mind, charting the course
of history and
eternity in one word, one moment. And
then you will start
writing that way,
in the language of the unconscious and people will
spend years of
their lives picking out all the inherent meaning in the
way words and
syllables are run together.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:25:44 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: high coup (haiku)
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> the sweet
smell of summer leaves,
> dark green
and steaming in the sunny, buzzing air.
>
> m
haiku to you,
too!
Lovers
sandwiching
My peanutbutter
lust wants
Welch's grape
jelly
:)
barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:30:12 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
In-Reply-To: <33B8BD1E.273A@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<<merde,
I'm late for work!>>
At 1:17 AM -0700
7/1/97, _____ Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> also...I am sure I could get a Beat
chat room set up at optichat for
> folks that
wanted to talk...but there is a cursing filter...so in order
> to truly
curse, you have to do so creatively.
cool. chickenheads,
prepare your engines!!
> barb
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:33:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Eating the book of life (was Re: Whitman)
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
>Note to
myself: explore book covers of
beats. first editions ---->
> etc. As a visual artist, how is
"touching" presented. in soft
and hard
> bind...
;-) and if you eat the book. lonely one night, alone in yer
> room, [[devour it whole]] have you
"communed" with *The Man* as well???
> lines of Ginsberg come to mind, [from Howl]
"with the absolute heart of
the poem of life
butchered out of their own bodies good to eat a thousand
years." Feeding on the body of life is a common
thread in much modern
literature,
probably dating back to the reference of communion as feeding
on the body of
Christ. Joyce was big on feeding on the
body, that each
of us is
connected to collective humanity in this way, feeding on the
the dead, finding
there life/work which enlightens us, and connects each
of us one to the
next.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:24:21 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: burroughs story
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The other
evening, after consuming my usual dinner of scrambled eggs
smothered in
Gib's Nuclear Hell Hot Sauce, I had a dream that my wife and
I met AG (in his
late-life form) in the basement of a New York City
Firehouse--seemingly
by appointment. Every time I began to
ask him a
question he'd get
up and walk to another room in this tiny building
decorated in
early 1960's naugahide. After about
twenty repetitions of
this he morphed
into a younger version of himself (India/Paris days) and
said simply
"I have to go now" and I woke up.
Any Amateur
Freudian Psychoanalysts (as opposed to Bournemouth and
District Amateur
Gynecologists) wanna take a crack at that one?
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:34:23 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: fear and loathing
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>Actually,
Depp and Cox had quite a difference in opinion of how the book
>should be
filmed, and Cox has been dropped. Last time I heard filming is
>now set for
early July with Terry Gilliam doing the honors.
I know Gilliam does a wonderful job and
has directed outside his
"Genesis" but I just can't help
thinking of a HST/Python marriage:
Act 1, Scene 1: HST and the crazed Samoan at 125 mph on 15
between
Baker and the NV line. Pan to rear view of convertible as giant
green
foot stomps convertible to bits and
topless queen Elizabeth II appears
over butte to left, googly eyes all
agoggle.
Don't trust the movie biz....filming may
start today but debut may be
in 2001!
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:53:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: burroughs story
MIME-Version: 1.0
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yes, you weren't
running fast enough.
IMHO, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: MATT
HANNAN[SMTP:MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 6:24 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re[2]: burroughs story
>
>The other
evening, after consuming my usual dinner of scrambled eggs
>smothered in
Gib's Nuclear Hell Hot Sauce, I had a dream that my wife and
>I met AG (in
his late-life form) in the basement of a New York City
>Firehouse--seemingly
by appointment. Every time I began to
ask him a
>question he'd
get up and walk to another room in this tiny building
>decorated in
early 1960's naugahide. After about twenty
repetitions of
>this he
morphed into a younger version of himself (India/Paris days) and
>said simply
"I have to go now" and I woke up.
>
>Any Amateur
Freudian Psychoanalysts (as opposed to Bournemouth and
>District
Amateur Gynecologists) wanna take a crack at that one?
>
>love and
lilies,
>
>matt
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:35:56 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
would be cool to
do beat chat, let's do it! Thx, Barb
Ciao,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:28:18 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: message play
MIME-Version: 1.0
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note to
myself: find URL of article originally
published in Monday's LA
Times.
Why Men Just Have
to Monkey Around <<snippet>>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=
by Kathleen
Kelleher (special to the Times)
<<
Chimpanzees-the
best human anlogue because they must cooperate to combat
common enemies
and compete for females and rank-do something called
"message
play."
"Instead of
beating up on an adolescent male, an adult male starts very
roughly tickling.
. . playfully slapping him and shoving him but giving
him the message
that he _could_ beat him up if he wanted to," says Frans
de Waal, a
primatologist at the Yerkes center and author of several
books on
primates.
"It is
turning tension into play. It is a bit
like tension between guys
and they turn it
into a joke."
>>
Douglas <<who never bit anybody's ear
off....>>
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:33:36 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: gregory corso?
Content-Type:
text
Ksenija,
The Corso line
you were asking about is from line 15 of Corso's
poem
"Bomb"; in English it reads," To die by cobra is not to die
by bad
pork." "Bomb" was originally published as a broadside, and
later was
collected in _The Happy Birthday of Death_ as a foldout
in that volume,
surely one of the few books of poetry ever published
with a
centerfold.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
7/1/97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:50:26 -0500
Reply-To: jo
grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: cc:
gnicosia@earthlink.net, Diane DeRooy <MemBabe@aol.com>
In-Reply-To:
<970630143115_-461032658@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Diane,
This is a fact.
Ph.D. candidate
from the University of Michigan, writing her dissertation
on Keroauc, was denied
access to the collection Gerry Sold to U.Mass.
If Martha Mayo
stated that anyone has access to the collection of research
material that was
used to write MEMORY BABE: A CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY OF JACK
KEROAUC, she is
not telling the truth.
j grant
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
372,191
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:31:45 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Kill Time, Save Vegetables
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think I smell
treble beats.
I just wanted to
let the group know that I know God and Satan personally and
they've asked me
to clear up a few things here. They're
actually really
good
friends. They made up a long time ago.
Satan and I have this running bit where he
flies by my balconey and says,
"See you
soon James." And I say, "Yeah
sure Satan you joker you." And I
look out at the
lake of fire and the folks gnashing their teeth and crying
and I laugh.
God takes me to heaven about every three
weeks. Don't get me wrong, we
talk in between
visits. When I go to heaven, God and I
get drunk and we
talk about you
guys and humanity in general.
Occasionally, other species
pop up but that's
usually when we're really out of it and we're bored. God
always asks me
what I wanna do and I say, "I dunno, whadda you wanna do?"
and he says,
"I dunno man, I've done everything."
We usually end up jerking
ourselves from one
edge of the universe to another and God'll say, "Okay,
we're here. Now we're here. Now we're over here. Oh.
Now we're here."
Then we go back to heaven and God lets me
make fun of Christ. I say
things like,
"Jesus Jesus, you shoulda, you know, made yourself tough as
nails. Or if you didn't wanna do that, you shoulda
told everybody not to
start a religion
based on what you said because there's these guys with
really big hats
and they tell everybody what you REALLY meant.
I mean, you
shoulda thought
ahead man. Why didn't you do a little
writing yourself?
You know, make
the message neon and eternal or something." And Christ
invariably says,
"I was just doing what Dad wanted."
And God says, "When
are you going to
grow up? Jesus Christ Jesus
Christ." Blashpemy is allowed
in heaven by the
way. God's always saying,
"Medammit, time for another
earthquake."
If anyone's interested, I'll relate more of
what's been going on with God,
Satan and other
religious figures and me later.
James
M.
"I'm
dying. I hope you're dying too."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:44:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
I have swapped
mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
> I ran a 411
search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me.
I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
mean youd on't
exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
not exist.
I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
Charles Plymell: No
matches
James Stauffer: 23
Matches
Jack Kerouac: No
Match
William S.
Burroughs: No match
So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
www.four11.com?
Hardly.
> So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
have fired you
long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
and one *I* have
corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
things.
SO before you go
doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
look her up in the
phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
such "the
lawyer".
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:54:32 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Don't shoot the messenger
Comments: To: jo
grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
jo grant wrote:
>
> Diane,
>
> This is a
fact.
>
> Ph.D.
candidate from the University of Michigan, writing her dissertation
> on Keroauc,
was denied access to the collection Gerry Sold to U.Mass.
>
> If Martha
Mayo stated that anyone has access to the collection of research
> material
that was used to write MEMORY BABE: A CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY OF JACK
> KEROAUC, she
is not telling the truth.
>
> j grant
Jo, she was not
the only scholar. Others have been
turned away. This
is the standard
line given out by Mayo, but reality is different.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:10:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Next in the FireWalk line ... LONG
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
some have shown
interest in these ... if you're not one feel free to
delete quickly.
>From FireWalk
Thru Madness, copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
THE HISTORY OF
TIME -- OR -- THE TIME OF HISTORY
OR
HUMAN VEGETABLE
TEACHES HISTORY TO COLLEGE STUDENTS
The wild eyed
freshman walked upstairs to his history class.
First day
of college one
class down one professor dead in the shadow of the wild
eyed boy=92s
mind. As he sat in the room waiting for
the class to begin
he felt a strange
sense of accomplishment - after years he was the first
the very first
student that answered the Poetry Professor=92s question.=20
It was also
strange because it left him feeling somewhat alienated,
somewhat isolated
- well actually completely alienated and isolated
because he was
different than all the other students - and it wasn=92t
just the students
in that particular class. He was
different from all
the students who
had brought their answers to the worn poetry professor
year after year.
He felt like an
alien transported to wake the college from it=92s
intellectual
slumber - shock the world out of it=92s one dimensional slee=
p
walking
existence. The wild eyed boy realized
that the professor was
talking in the
front of the room and he=92s saying something about
Santayana
something about =93Those who refuse to learn from the past are
doomed to repeat
it.=94 He=92s up there mumbling about
doom thought the
wild eyed boy but
doesn=92t know anything about doom. What
has this
middle aged man
ever known about doom? The wild eyed boy
began to feel
the irritation
building inside him the irritation that mean the alien
death force he
harbored in his soul was beginning to surface. =20
He raised his
hand and asked: =93Would it help a starving child in Somali=
a
to read a book
about past famines, or perhaps a history of nutrition?=94=20
The professor
looked annoyed in his cordouroy jacket with patches on the
sleeves. Where did this question come from? Students didn=92t ask real
questions. Not in a history class. Something about the boy=92s tone
annoyed him and
tempted him kept him from brushing off the comment. It
was asi if the
rest of the class disappeared onlyy the middle-aged man
with all those
books in his mind and the wild eyed boy with his angst
stood facing each
other mind vs. mind, soul vs. soul a battle to the
death.
=93The history
you teach is fiction,=94 said the wild eyed boy. =93All y=
ou=92re
doing is telling
his story as opposed to her story of the ant=92s story o=
r
some other
guy=92s story or some other woman=92s story.
What makes you
think that the
books you read are any truer than some Louis L=92Amour
Western?=94 He paused for a moment to witness the
professor=92s response=
.=20
=93The history
you study is just an extended Senate Confirmation Hearing
with Clarence
Thomas telling his story and Anita Hill telling her story
and the witnesses
telling their stories and a bunch of old white
straight males
are sitting in the front holding court to decide which
story will be
called the truth. Woody Guthrie knew
that the true
History wasn=92t
what made it to the history books what made it to the Ne=
w
York Times - the
true history was in the boxcars - it was Whitman asking
Woody to travel
America and tell what he saw and that=92s what Woody did =
-
And he heard
Irving Berlin=92s =91God Bless America=92 and he said that
shouldn=92t pass
as history and he wrote =91God Blessed America=92 and th=
en
called it =91This
Land is Your Land=92 and he wrote =91you can only write=
what
you see=92 on the
bottom of the page and it became the alternative
national anthem
-- but even it wasn=92t the truth - some of the verses
were ignored, the
capitalists hid the radical verses - just saved the
pretty ones - and
U2 tried to excavate in the shared vision thing but I
don=92t know if
the project was an archaeoogical success.
So you want me
to believve that
history protects us in the future and if it was true,
if it wasn=92t
fiction I might agree -- but what makes you believe George
Washington really
crossed the Delaware or Jesus Christ really died on a
cross or even
existed? Is it because a book told you
so. If that naive
faith is all you
have to protect you from the doom that lurks in the
future then I
fear for your soul old man.=94
He stared at the
history professor who was silent -- he was blank. But
he seemed to
still have life buried somewhere inside him so the wild
eyed boy waited
patiently -- and he waited, and he waited --
occasionally he
caught a glimpse of the student class President across
the room staring
at the boy like he stared at Crazy Eddy or his little
sister when she
told him about their Uncle and sexual abuse and some
would call it
rape - but why bother.
The professor
finally spoke. =93How would you predict
the future, if not
with the aid of
history?=94 =20
The wild eyed boy
stared at him, not flinching for a moment.
=93You=92re=
so
fucking
presumptious to believe you can predict the future anyway. Or
for believing
that the future is even predictable or that anything is
predictable. What in your history could make you expect
that we=92d be
engaged in this
mental bloodsport right now, this instant, the present?=20
And what makes
you think that even if things are predictable, that what
you call historiy
is any more accurate, any more =91scientific=92 than Ta=
rot
Cards or Ouija
Boards or Astrology? Don=92t you get it
old man. That
thing you call
history isn=92t the Truth -- it isn=92t History with a
capital H --
it=92s just some misguided excuse for one snapshot of the
billion possible
snapshots of a feew points in time. And
studying all
these wars
doesn=92t seem to make us not fight in them.
It makes as much
sense to say that
our preoccupation with war in our history textbooks
perpetuates this
war mentality like a self-fulfilling prophecy and we=92d
do better (or at
lest as well) to roll some dice or call a 1-900 Psychic
line.=94
=93So you don=92t
believe in History?=94 the professor responded.
His
response was
almost immediate, almost presumptious, as if he thought
some intellectual
trick -- a mind trap he=92d learned in graduate school
when his
professor trapped him for being inquisitive -- was enough to
silence this
strange creature that was passing off as a college
freshman.
The wild eyed boy
recognized the simplicity of the response, he realized
that the
middle-aged man had not listened to him, that the professor was
afraid to look
into the mirror of his soul and see a big sign saying:
=93FRAUD=94, and
was trying to protect himself with old tricks like a che=
ap
magician.
=93I believe in
History, but it isn=92t whay you call history.
You=92re =
so
caught in your
cage that you can=92t even listen to another angle -- see
another
truth. What are you afraid of old
man? Afraid of losing or
maybe even
learning from a wild eyed freshman?
Would that be so
horrible? -- Career ending/Soul wrenching blow to learn
something from
a student. I believe in history but not what you call
history. This is
history right
now. And what=92s happening at the
Casey=92s over in Hills=
,
Iowa, that=92s
history. Your brand of history has some
kind of
accredidation or
application attached to it like for my life to be
meaningful I have
to make history and that I have to try out for the
great play of
history like trying out for some stupid high school
musical that
nobody in the audience understands because they=92re only
there out of
obligation to their children who are only in the play to
please their
parents. What makes you think that
you=92re less
historically
meaningful than George Washington? Does
it make you
insecure to look
in the mirror and not see George Washington?
If I
write a book of
history or a movie and call it =93It=92s a Wonderful Life=
,=94
and let you star
and let you almost jump off the bridge because of your
insecurities,
your belief in history and let Clarence save you will that
make you feel
worthwhile? Or will you wait to to read
the movie
reviews? Instead of living through old dead men, dead
on black and
white paper -- a
few pictures to try and prove something -- try living
through
yourself. Shave your head. Get a tatoo.
Run through the
streets naked and
see if anyone notices and if you care.
Learn to live
as if you are the
characters in your prized history books and you=92ll do
well. Or deal with the fact that you=92re just a
speck of matter in the
Universe that
doesn=92t amount to much of anything but what you decided t=
o
make for
yourself. Maybe then you can be happ0y
and stop terrorizing
freshmen term
after term making them think that they aren=92t as importan=
t
as these
=91historical=92 figures.=94
The history
professor now recognized that he faced a formidable
opponent. This wild eyed boy -- fire of Jupiter flaming
out like bolts
of lightning from
the Heavens -- staring at him questioning his
legitimacy. For years such a question had not even been
considered by
the blurry eyed
students who pass by his desk each term.
For years his
legitimacy rested
in his position, his degrees, of course he knows more
than us freshman
because he=92s in a position to know all that
information. The wild eyed boy seemed to see through this
mirage
realizing that
anyone could be in this position that teaching was really
idiotic in many
ways. And he realized that his degrees
and honors meant
nothing to this
student because the boy was questioning all the classes
represented by
those degrees by questioning this one moment in this one
class. If he demonstrates that my class is a fraud
-- for a moment --
he may expose the
big fraud of the whole degree system.
This student
was digging
deeper than any other in his sixteen years of teaching. He
was questioning
the professor=92s entire reason for believing -- his
reason for
being. It wasn=92t a question of his
particular beliefs those
would be easy to
defend in combat. The wild eyed boy was
questioning
the reason of it
-- the sanity of it. He was saying that
the premise on
which the
professor=92s entire existence was built was nothing but
shifting
sand. It was with this shaky foundation
that the professor
turned to the boy
and asked:
=93So if you
believe in history, only a different history than mine,
-- What is the
essence of History?=94
=93It=92s about
time,=94 the wild eyed boy replied. For
a minute the
professor thought
the student was scolding him for taking so long to get
around to
questioning the essentials and he waited for the student to
continue. Then he realized that it was the student=92s
answer. The
essence of history,
as this student perceived it, was time.
The professor
froze there for an historical moment -- an historical
instant. In that one momenthe left his body into the
collective mind of
his unconscious
and from there he turned to look over his shoulder and
there before him
was all of history -- all there at once -- everything
staring at him.
In his normal
state of mind he would have thought this impossible. How
could all of
history be present to him in one instant -- in one moment.=20
But he was
experiencing it and so he could understand all that came
before, in its
wholeness and he could see all that was now and from this
atemporal vision
the collage of this thing called history projected the
future into his
mind. And finally he learned what
Santayana meant.
He was repeating
history term after term doomed to the same mundane
existence because
he refused to turn and face history, to look at the
historical
instant and now that he had seen the vision he should return
and learn from it
-- Teach others to learn from it, in a meaningful way,
in an essential
way -- teach the truth about history, that history is
the interval
between an instant and a moment and all of history is
contained
therein.
The middle aged
professor woke from his dream in a cold sweat.
He was
disoriented, but
soon realized that he=92d slept through his alarm. He
had fifteen
minutes until his first class of the term.
He had stayed up
late preparing
for the first day=92s lecture. It was
fairly commonplace
for the dirst day
of class to be devoted to preliminary procedural
matters -- a
brief description of the course, the ritual dispensing of
the syllabus --
signing add and drop slips and returning to the office
and home early.
This term the
professor had decided that the first day required a
lecture. The reason, he believed, for student apathy
was rooted in the
tone of the class
that first day. The introduction to the
class is of a
stale
administrative course for academic credit paid for in cash. All
of these
considerations completely destroyed the importance of the
content of the
material to be presented in this particular class. It
was primarily the
same as any other class regardless of the subject.=20
Any disagreements
or disparities between classes clearly focused only on
procedural
matters.
The Professor
decided to change that. On the first day
of class he
would introduce
history -- what it is, why it is so important, so
essential to our
lives. He=92d begun with the famous
quotation =93Those =
who
choose to ignore
history are doomed to repeat it.=94 From
here the
lecture went on
for nearly twelve pages illustrating the hazards of
historical
ignorance. The historically intelligent,
the historically
aware, the
historically conscious, individual can see past the blur of
everyday events
at the archetypal plots -- life-scripts -- that are
played out day-in
and day-out by people who don=92t even know that they
are in the play.
=93All the
World=92s a stage and I am but a player on it=94 the professor
thinks and he
explains to the students in the lecture that learning to
play at history
is the test of understanding of knowledge just like in
any other
endeavor. The historical character can
see the separate play
outside the ones
which occupy most people=92s time. The
historical
character alters
the present within the interior play by shifting
through the plots
and actions in the larger play. One must
possess
historical
awareness, historical consciousnes, historical Be-coming to
become a figure
in the larger plane of history. =20
As he entered the
room carrying a stack of papers and the notes for his
lecture scrawled
on diner napkins from late night coffee the dream
returned to the
middle-aged professor. He was wearing his
new corduoroy
jacket with the
patched sleeves. The nightmare
returned. The entire
dream returned
and he saw the wild eyed boy standing over him and he
knew that he was
a fraud.
He handed out the
syllabus, asked if there were any questions, signed
some add and drop
slips, walked downstairs to his office, shut the door,
turned on the
radio to hear Carlos Santana playing God Bless America on
a forthcoming,
historical patriotic album. Berlin vs.
Guthrie. Germany
vs.
Oklahoma. in Football or War or is there
a difference? Of course
there is he
thought and said he=92d take Germany in war but Oklahoma woul=
d
kick their ass in
football.=20
His mind drifted
further into the past and present.
Five hours later
another professor stopped by to ask about a signature
on a travel
voucher for their trip to the convention last week. He
found the
middle-aged history professor still in his corouroy jacket
staring blankly
and smiling blankly and completely unaware of the
activities in his
physical surroundings.
They took him to
a hospital I=92m told. They said he
never recovered.
Occasionally he
mutters something about the wild eyed boy and it is all
here, this one
moment contains it all at once. He was
right -- time is
the essential
component, transcend time - escape the quality of
temporality for
an instant and you can see the history folding and
unfolding and
repeating and skipping lice dice or domino=92s ....
and he goes on
and on and the nurses just walk by without even looking
surprised by the
insane patter from the retired old man.
And he tells
them he=92s a
professor but nobody believes him....he=92s a crazy man. T=
hey
think - sure,
he=92s a professor. Better double the
Haldol and get out
the leather for
this one says Lurch as he reads the description of
tonight=92s
shift. =93It looks like you=92re all
going to finally get to=
meet
the wild eyed
boy. Merry Chirstmas.=94
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:17:17 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re:
suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: To:
"Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Lisa M. Rabey
wrote:
>
> At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> >Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
>
> I have
swapped mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
>
> > I ran a
411 search
> >and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my email
address and got me.
>
> I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
> in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
> mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
> work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
> list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
> not exist.
>
> I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches
> James Stauffer: 23
Matches
> Jack Kerouac: No
Match
> William S.
Burroughs: No match
> So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
>
www.four11.com? Hardly.
>
> > So, I
> >am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
> >from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
> >a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
> >and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
> >post.
>
> As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
> have fired
you long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
> and one *I*
have corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
> things.
>
> SO before
you go doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
> mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
> look her up
in the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
> such
"the lawyer".
>
> ttfn.
>
> lisa
> --
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to
hate you
> and yet that is all i can
show you.
> Nothing lasts forever.
-me
>
> http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
> mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
Lisa:
If your flame had
any information that was useable in it, I would use
it. I asked if anyone knew if she was a real
person. If you know her
and she is, then,
I would be more than happy to hear that.
I did not
claim to know the
answer, but if you would type in bocelts@scsn.net into
411 you would get
information on me, unless you have a different 411
search engine. 411 is for the living who have email address,
phone
numbers etc, it is not prefect. Methinks you doth protest too much.
Maybe you just
don't like lawyers. Whatever it is, good
luck working
your problem out.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:41:25 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: To:
"Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Lisa M. Rabey
wrote:
>
> At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> >Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
>
> I have
swapped mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
>
> > I ran a
411 search
> >and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my email
address and got me.
>
> I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
> in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
> mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
> work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
> list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
> not exist.
>
> I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches
> James Stauffer: 23
Matches
> Jack Kerouac: No
Match
> William S. Burroughs: No
match
> So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
>
www.four11.com? Hardly.
>
> > So, I
> >am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
> >from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
> >a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
> >and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
> >post.
>
> As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
> have fired
you long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
> and one *I*
have corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
> things.
>
> SO before
you go doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
> mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
> look her up
in the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
> such
"the lawyer".
>
> ttfn.
>
> lisa
> --
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to
hate you
> and yet that is all i can show you.
> Nothing lasts forever.
-me
>
>
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
> mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
Lisa:
Funny you should
have written this missive to the list moments before I
received this
from an old college friend who is NOT on the beat list.
The message below
was sent at 18:28 but received after Lisa's post.
>Subject: Four11
listing
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:28:39 +0000
>From: swhitney@gate.net
> To: bocelts@scsn.net (R. Bentz Kirby)
>Hi
Bentz, When I managed to find your home
page using a web search
>engine. I am
certain that I had previously searched for you via the
>Four11
directory services. I found out that the only way to find you
>in Four11 is
to enter " R "
for the first name and "
Kirby " for
>the last
name. If you want people to be able to
find you by Bentz
>Kirby then
you might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
>alternate
first name field.
<snip>
--
Funny how poetry
is in motion on the www sometimes, ain't it!
;-)
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:45:50 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Four11 listing
Comments: To:
swhitney@gate.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
swhitney@gate.net
wrote:
>
> Hi
Bentz, When I managed to find your home
page using a web search
> engine. I am
certain that I had previously searched for you via the
> Four11
directory services. I found out that the only way to find you
> in Four11 is
to enter " R "
for the first name and " Kirby "
for
> the last
name. If you want people to be able to
find you by Bentz
> Kirby then
you might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
> alternate
first name field.
> I was trying to figure out how in the
world you got an email from
> Mike Miller
so soon today, before I had emailed him your address,
> and finally
figured it out when I visited my Guestbook page and
> realized
Mike got your email address there. There are 6 of us online
> now, hope to
find more. Later Steven
>
> Steven
Whitney Naples FL.
> (
swhitney@gate.net ) or ( nfn00805@gator.naples.net )
> Home
Page http://gate.net/~swhitney/ or
> http://naples.net/~nfn00805
> If I am
online you can reach me with WebChat via the link on my Homepage
Steve:
Thanks for the
message, when I get to work tomorrow, I will check to see
what time that
your message was sent and what time Mike's was sent. I
guess it depends
on the routing that your email has to go through, I
guess. Your message to me about 411 was very
timely. So, I am posting
a copy of this email to you on the beat literature
list. I'll explain
later if you want
to know. BTW, I was looking at our
annual today at
work. Someone asked if I really used to weigh only
145. Saw a picture
of you guys
getting on the bus to go to Nationals.
Man, I may scan that
and post in on my
www site for the track and field list to get to know
you better! ;-)
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:50:02 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
My, my such a
rabid response for a rather innocuous e-mail from Bentz...
Since this is not
you personally being drawn under question, why so excited?
Also, how do you
know that she's membabe? How do I know
that you're not one
and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her posting.
How do you know for certain she's a she, have
you heard "her" voice, seen a
picture? Have you
seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
coffee....
Since there is a
controversy, it seems to me that it's good for people to
question events
that might have an effect on the recovery of stolen items as
well as the
mis-handling of the irreplaceable archives of Jack Kerouac's work.
I'm sorry, Lisa,
but your e-mail seems suspect to me... I
would prefer to be
wrong on this,
but at this point it certainly doesn't ring true.
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Lisa M. Rabey
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 6:44 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
I have swapped mail
with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
> I ran a 411
search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me.
I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
mean youd on't
exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
not exist.
I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
Charles Plymell: No
matches
James Stauffer: 23
Matches
Jack Kerouac: No
Match
William S. Burroughs:
No match
So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
www.four11.com?
Hardly.
> So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
have fired you
long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
and one *I* have
corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
things.
SO before you go
doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
look her up in
the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
such "the
lawyer".
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:13:26 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: apology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
I apologize to
the list for my overreaction to Lisa's flame.
I made two
posts off topic
in reply, and again apologize. Tonight was my 14th
wedding
anniversary, and I put my 12 year old son on a plane to spend
two weeks with my
sister and her husband. I have a sense
of seperation
anxiety and am
having a hard time dealing with all of this.
So, if I
was out of line
in my three responses to Lisa, I apologize.
On the other
hand, it seemed very poetic that while Lisa was busy
flaming me about
411 that a friend who found me for the first time since
1976, was writing
me about finding me on 411 and suggesting that I add
Bentz to the
listing. To me that was poetry. One of the last things
Steve and I did
together, was to go on a road trip from Charleston, SC
to Columbia, SC
to see Bruce and the E Street Band on the Born to Run
tour. They played a 4000 seat arena in Columbia and
it was just before
BTR broke out big
time. Now the circle is closed some 21
years later by
the www and
411. In my mind, very cool.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:32:52 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B9BA2D.187E8541@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<snip>
>Lisa:
>
>If your flame
had any information that was useable in it, I would use
>it.
It wasn't a
"flame" it was a critique. You stated that because the person
could not be
found by www.four11.com, the person could not exist. I pointed
out to you that
just because someone was NOT listed on www.four11.com does
not mean that
they do not exist, hence my examples.
> I asked if
anyone knew if she was a real person. If
you know her
>and she is,
then, I would be more than happy to hear that.
I did not
>claim to know
the answer, but if you would type in bocelts@scsn.net into
>411 you would
get information on me, unless you have a different 411
>search
engine. 411 is for the living who have
email address, phone
>numbers
etc, it is not prefect. Methinks you doth protest too much.
me thinks you
jump to the gun too much. You were ready to haul membabe to
the stake and
burn her because of an incident in the past that occurred
with *supposed*
fake aol.com addresses.
>
>Maybe you
just don't like lawyers. Whatever it is,
good luck working
>your problem
out.
Erm, why is it if
you make a comment about something that does not agree
with yours that
suddenly that someone has "problems". Now, that is mature.
ttfn.
Lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:37:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B9BFD5.D67D2695@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Before you get
your accolades, why don't you READ what I wrote:
You wrote:
>>Hi Bentz, When I managed to find your home page using a
web search
>>engine. I
am certain that I had previously searched for you via the
>>Four11
directory services. I found out that the only way to find you
>>in Four11
is to enter " R "
for the first name and "
Kirby " for
>>the last
name. If you want people to be able to
find you by Bentz
>>Kirby
then you might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
>>alternate
first name field.
><snip>
I wrote:
> I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
> in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
> mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
> work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
> list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
> not exist.
>
I did a search on
R. Bentz Kirby, Bentz Kirby, and the last name of Kirby.
Nothing. Your
"Friend" found you by R. Kirby. So, I did *NOT* find you
because of the
string pattern, its was not boolean enough. So *I* did not
find because of
such.
And if you READ
what your friend said, he says 'if you want people to be
able to find you
by Bentz
Kirby then you
might want to go back to Four11 and fill out an
alternate first
name field."
So you can stop
talking about poetry in motion on the www, because we were
both
"right".
ttfn.
Lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:53:57 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sherri wrote:
> Also, how do
you know that she's membabe? How do I
know that you're not one
> and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her posting.
> How do you know for certain she's a she, have
you heard "her" voice, seen a
> picture?
Have you seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
> coffee....
>
How do we know
that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
then if they are
who they say they are. For all I know
Benz Kirby is a
stage name for
Gerry Nicosia. I have never either
one. Maybe "sherri"
is a complete
illusion.
The whole list
may just be one big multiple personality illusion.
I cannot help but
think that there is something about this debate that
produces
dementia. It's a trip to the twilight
zone. Everytime it
surfaces the
strangest allegations start to be made.
So far we have
Lisa and Tony
Triglio who have exchanged e-mails on other topics with
this person. Somewhere out in cyberspace there is a
"membabe" who was
interested enough
in beat stuff to do a Ginsberg tribute on AOL.
Such
an entity might
logically have an interest in the estate question. But
somehow if this
"person" disagrees with the Nicosia/Kirby position in
this matter they
graduate to being part of the evil Sampas gang,
with
its tentacles
reaching from Lowell to Seattle. Funny,
isn't it.
J Stauffer
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:44:16 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707020255290821@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:50 AM
7/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>My, my such a
rabid response for a rather innocuous e-mail from Bentz...
>
>Since this is
not you personally being drawn under question, why so excited?
>Also, how do
you know that she's membabe? How do I
know that you're not one
>and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her
posting.
> How do you
know for certain she's a she, have you heard "her" voice, seen a
>picture? Have
you seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
>coffee....
Well according to
your own theory Sherri, seeing as I never spoke to JD
Salinger, seen a
picture of him, or met him, does that mean he does not exist?
>
>Since there
is a controversy, it seems to me that it's good for people to
>question
events that might have an effect on the recovery of stolen items as
>well as the mis-handling
of the irreplaceable archives of Jack Kerouac's
work.
>
>
>I'm sorry,
Lisa, but your e-mail seems suspect to me...
I would prefer to be
>wrong on
this, but at this point it certainly doesn't ring true.
And here is email
I got from Membabe herself:
X-POP3-Rcpt:
lisar@serv01
Return-Path:
MemBabe@aol.com
From:
MemBabe@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar
1997 00:38:23 -0500 (EST)
To:
MemBabe@aol.com
Subject: beat
generation chatroom updates
Note: you are one
of 65 people receiving this letter. If you don't want to
continue to be
one of 65 people receiving mail from me, please let me know
right away. You
know how expensive postage is these days....
Hey, everybody...
Life goes too
fast and I fall behind too quickly. Never entrust me with these
important tasks;
I'm too easily overextended...
ANNOUNCEMENTS.................................................................
<snip>
And considering
that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list here
personally, met
them, had coffee with them nor shared in their lives, which
includes you
sherri, maybe you do not exist either.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever.
-me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:54:51 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
James Stauffer
wrote:
. But
> somehow if
this "person" disagrees with the Nicosia/Kirby position in
> this matter
they graduate to being part of the evil Sampas gang, with
> its
tentacles reaching from Lowell to Seattle.
Funny, isn't it.
Well James, I am
not Gerry Nicosia and I certainly don't agree with
everything he
says. But I also am interested in facts
seeing the light
of day. If Gerry is wrong about something, then prove
it out. No
problem. But what if there is a conspiracy to damage
Gerry? How do you
know there is
not? So, let the thread die as it was
before the other
post started me
up again. I will do my best to do so.
As Jo Grant has
already pointed out tonight, if Martha Mayo did make
those statements,
they are not true. And the real problem
is the lack
of care for the
audio tapes, and barring people from listening to them.
So just because
you disagree, or think Gerry sees a conspiracy behind
every tree,
doesn't meant that one does not exist.
Maybe Gerry just
sees more than
there are?
In any event, I
hope this dies a death right now and will do my best to
let it die.
Let's get back to
some vital discussion of vital literature.
How about his
topic. Poets view and treatment of
God. Let's start with
Ferlinghetti's
new book, A Far Rockaway of the Heart.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:09:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In-Reply-To: <33B9D0D5.42E2@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't think an
anonymous person would set up a website on their webpage
dedicated to
Kerouac.
http://members.aol.com/membabe
But then again,
im a smart ass, what do I know.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:27:01 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
My point exactly,
Lisa...
I just think that
perhaps the whole thing should be looked at very carefully
and objectively
so the truth can come out. The last
thing I want to see is a
great writer's
archives lost to the public, among other things...
Btw, I didn't
mean to be offensive... just wanted you
to consider the
possibility that
you may have been or are being duped ...
Let's let it die
a noble death here <hands Lisa the
olive branch, and holds
out her hand>...
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Lisa M. Rabey
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 8:44 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
At 02:50 AM
7/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>My, my such a
rabid response for a rather innocuous e-mail from Bentz...
>
>Since this is
not you personally being drawn under question, why so excited?
>Also, how do
you know that she's membabe? How do I
know that you're not one
>and the same
person as "Diane De Rooy"? She
didn't state that in her
posting.
> How do you
know for certain she's a she, have you heard "her" voice, seen a
>picture? Have
you seen "her" published work, "her" credentials, met
"her" for
>coffee....
Well according to
your own theory Sherri, seeing as I never spoke to JD
Salinger, seen a
picture of him, or met him, does that mean he does not exist?
>
>Since there
is a controversy, it seems to me that it's good for people to
>question
events that might have an effect on the recovery of stolen items as
>well as the
mis-handling of the irreplaceable archives of Jack Kerouac's
work.
>
>
>I'm sorry,
Lisa, but your e-mail seems suspect to me...
I would prefer to be
>wrong on
this, but at this point it certainly doesn't ring true.
And here is email
I got from Membabe herself:
X-POP3-Rcpt:
lisar@serv01
Return-Path:
MemBabe@aol.com
From:
MemBabe@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Mar
1997 00:38:23 -0500 (EST)
To:
MemBabe@aol.com
Subject: beat
generation chatroom updates
Note: you are one
of 65 people receiving this letter. If you don't want to
continue to be
one of 65 people receiving mail from me, please let me know
right away. You
know how expensive postage is these days....
Hey, everybody...
Life goes too
fast and I fall behind too quickly. Never entrust me with these
important tasks;
I'm too easily overextended...
ANNOUNCEMENTS.................................................................
<snip>
And considering
that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list here
personally, met
them, had coffee with them nor shared in their lives, which
includes you
sherri, maybe you do not exist either.
ttfn.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to hate
you
and yet that is all i can show
you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:48:42 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: who am i?
I've spent the
last 46 years asking myself that...
Is this the usual
sort of response on newsgroups? I'm relatively new to this
and don't
honestly know.
An excerpt from
my post:
<<I've been
in touch with people who could only be described as secondary to
the life of jack
kerouac, asking questions and assembling a feature story.
There are also
many people I have not met or interviewed. But two of the
people I have
interviewed by phone and through thousands of words in letters
are Rod Anstee
and Gerry Nicosia. I had the opportunity to form opinions
about both these
men independently, si>>
I assume both Rod
and Gerry would vouch for my existence, and the fact that
I'm female. I
also have a listed phone number in Seattle and would certainly
be interested in
hearing from anyone who had anything of value to contribute
to my own
research, or to make factual corrections.
If, at any time I
discover I've been misled, or that I am in any way wrong
about what I've
found to be true, I will be overjoyed to make a corrective
post. I should
think everyone would be, in the interest of truth.
Please don't duke
it out on the list, though. Please feel free to address me
directly at
either of my email addresses (membabe@aol.com or ddrooy@aol.com)
or by phone here
in Seattle. I'm more than happy to respond, up to the point
where it would
become a violation of my privacy.
ddr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:01:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: automatic writing
Comments: To:
stand666@bitstream.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
In a message
dated 97-07-01 12:08:32 EDT, you write:
<< When
I first started writing I borrowed Andre
Breton's method of automatic
writing=97I think Jack K called it spontaneous
prose or whatever. He
must've read Breton at some point; Celine,
etc.
>>
yes, i think automatic writing is great
for getting a whole lot of s=
hit
out and
juxtaposing things you normally wouldn't if you thought about it =
too
consciously...but
then afterwards it help to "weed out" the boring crappy
stuff....
some people may say that makes it less
'authentic', but I think they=
're
just not willing
to admit that some of their thoughts might be boring and=
not
worthy of others'
reading them.
automatic writing is an excellent
exercise, esp. if you have writer'=
s
block. First thing in the morning is best too,
because you're still unde=
r
the influence of
dreams.
---------------just
a thought-----------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:04:31 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: God <<still digging>>
Comments: To:
dcarter@together.net
In a message
dated 97-07-01 11:22:13 EDT, you write:
<< Can you even start to imagine what grasping
the wholeness of human
knowledge
and the universe in one instant would be like?
>>
ummm.......actually?.......yes!
---maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:53:35 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
i vote visions of
cody. never read it, never even thought
of reading it
before. i figure,
'what the hell' i might as well. never was much into
kerouac (on the
road was too much like my life, and i don't like reading
about myself
much! too boring)
so i will try it,
and perhaps i will say, "i do! i do! I Iike VOC! I like it
here, there, and
everywhere!"
---maya
ps: can someone
please tell WSB to stop sneaking into my dreans? It's really
distracting me. I
can't focus at work anymore. I keep
seeing his face. He
even made me sit
on his lap in one dream. I can't take it
any more. I mean,
he doesn't even
LIKE girls, right? What a creep!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:39:54 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.& then
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
i too, confess, i
found much to interest me in the recent controversy,
I percieved diane
to be sincere and much appreciated her post.
i
disagreed with
her assumptions, as the idea that no original material
was in the memory
babe archives.That didn't seeem likely to me.
I too
would like to see
someone visit and be able to take notes. I have had
experiance with a
library in missouri that had intervertantly lost half
of a small
collection , they lied and covered up and blamed the poor
artist for lying,
a big shot alum finally got involved and they finally
admitted that a
staff person had let someone take material home and when
it was returned
much was missing. Institutions are not as forthcoming as
one would hope..
I wish that i felt more secure about the memory babe
material but my
primary concern in that controversy was not the theft of
materials and
access to that collection (here i shout, pardon) IT IS THE
JK ARCHIVES.
Unhappily the only thing i could sense we could do is to
communicate to
all factors that jk material should be treated with
respect and be
watchful.
archive poem
the old horse
raises it head
once shot they
believed it dead
struggling it
rises
joins the ring of
ponies
riding the
necronauts
in their circle
of fame.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:24:38 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Hi there,
I spoke with the creator of Optichat,
and he said he'd be glad to
create a room for
those with Beat interests. (awfully nice
of him)
Anyhow, he
maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
scroll...there
are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
no monitors..only
a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
fairly lucky in
being able to express my ideas without needing that
particular
word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
twisted way,
anyhow. The chat is fast there,
too...almost like irc.
The other option
is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
talk privately)
Well, I'm just acting on a suggestion I
saw earlier...I think a good
one. I'd like to see how you think/react/chat in
"real" time.
Dan also said if
someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
(if beta were
chosen) that would be just groovy.
Maybe those
interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
what folks think.
The address is http://www.optichat.com/
I will be in the
first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
left hand side of
the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
would be 10 East
Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
to do your own
math!). For now...lets meet in
Babblemania (seems sort
of Kerouac-like
anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
Thanks,
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:33:35 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Diane DeRooy: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970701184421.007c2300@smtp.net-link.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
RE: Diane De Rooy
I have
communicated with Diane on a number of occasions. She has been
working on a Jan
Kerouac article for quite some time, has had disagreements
with Gerry
Nicosia regarding Keroauc material, sources, etc. Diane ended up
very
"turned-off" by Gerry. Unfortunate IMO, but no big deal. Gerry's busy
and Diane was
taking up
Her latest post
states that Martha Mayo, Special Collections librarian says
anypone--with a
few days notice--can have access to the Memory Babe
Collection. Rod
Anstee, according to Diane, confirms this. Diane may
believe what they
tell her. I do not.
I know of
scholars who have been turned away.
On another note,
the recipe for Caesar salad dressing she sent me yesterday
looks like it
might be a winner. since it's my daughters favorite dressing
I'll let her be
the judge.
j grant
At 06:28 PM
6/30/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>>Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.
>
>I have
swapped mail with membabe@aol.com on various topics such as irc.
>
>> I ran a
411 search
>>and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my email
address and got me.
>
>I went to
www.four11.com and did a NAME search on you. You did not show up
>in R. Bentz
Kirby, Bentz Kirby, or the last name of Kirby. So does this
>mean youd
on't exist? And as far as the web search engines work, they only
>work if YOU
yourself put your name in OR someone buys your name off the
>list. just
because someone does NOT show up in the web search means they do
>not exist.
>
>I also did a
search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches
> James Stauffer: 23
Matches
> Jack Kerouac: No
Match
> William S. Burroughs: No
match
>So do these
people not exist because you did not find them at
>www.four11.com?
Hardly.
>
>> So, I
>>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>>post.
>
>
>As for your
"comptence" doing websearch, if you were my lawyer, I would
>have fired
you long ago for 'incomptence". Membabe is a very real person
>and one *I*
have corresponded with in the past about various and sundry
>things.
>
>SO before you
go doing "searches" why don't you actually do a search. She
>mentioned I
believe that she lives in Seattle (or thereabouts) nothing to
>look her up
in the phonebook or do a search though DMV seeing as you are
>such
"the lawyer".
>
>ttfn.
>
>lisa
>--
>
> Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
>
************************************************************
> words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
> how easy it would be to hate
you
> and yet that is all i can show
you.
> Nothing lasts forever.
-me
>
>
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
> mirror:
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
> F.U.C.K. mirror:
http://www.samurai.com/~lisa/f.u.c.k
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
313,599 visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:38:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: morning sickness
morning sickness
what cancerous
pregnancy ails me now?
I thought they
had beaten it out of me,
but it seems my
grotesque child
is still alive
and kicking.
Oh, i would that
I could expel it
instead of
suffering the rest of the term
but it's
tenacious like a tumor
and germinates
like a germ.
Im not talking
about the usual uterus
but a more
fertile womb
the blood-red
cavern within my skull
that will keep on
birthing until the tomb.
my mind is
aching...I think it will be soon!
(spontaneous poem
written between 10:30 and 10:34 am today wednesday)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:30:56 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
<snips>
How do we know
that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
then if they are
who they say they are.
The whole list
may just be one big multiple personality illusion.
I cannot help but
think that there is something about this debate that
produces
dementia. It's a trip to the twilight
zone. Everytime it
surfaces the
strangest allegations start to be made.
graduate to being part of the evil Sampas
gang, with its tentacles
reaching from Lowell to Seattle. Funny, isn't it.
<end el snips>
Y'all have much more invested in this than
me, that's for sure. It
brings to mind some of the great events in
history:
"Mr. Reagan"
"Yes, Senator McCarthy"
"Are you a communist?"
or
"Why can't we all just get
along"
or, best put
Ginsberg (as Alvah Goldbook in DB) "I
know my redeemer liveth"
Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
(there, managed to work a Beat quote in
that covers two recent hot
topics on the list)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:49:33 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: Diane
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Diane De Rooy:
Thank you for
your posts back channel. I have spoken
through email with
Jo Grant and
others who have quelled my unfounded suspions.
I hope that
you will continue
your research. I have reason to believe
that what
Mayo told you is
not necessarily true. But for now, it
does not matter.
Hopefully the
tapes can be protected and made available within the
parameters of the
law.
I apologize if my
query offended you. I did not intend to
do that. I
had hoped the
thread you raised had died and intend to let it die
myself.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:53:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: who am i?
In-Reply-To:
<970702004805_-858194005@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Diane De Rooy:
welcome! you are a breath of fresh air here, and i am
delighted to see
that you wrote :
Please don't duke
it out on the list, though. Please feel free to address me
directly at
either of my email addresses (membabe@aol.com or ddrooy@aol.com)
or by phone here
in Seattle. I'm more than happy to respond, up to the point
where it would
become a violation of my privacy.
as flame wars
have erupted and engulfed the list, this last ration of
ridiculousness
re: your real/unreal presence only a small example.
like your style
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:53:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: summer reading update
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i vote for Cody.
at the same time, on my HST jag, i've drugged and drunk
meself through
fear and loathing in los vegas (i too failed to find the
american dream)
am now halfway
through hog heaven (hells angels) and
soon to be rolling in
the letters.
so if it's
visions of cody/first third
i'll keep up with
discussion as it unfolds.
gotta go, they're
at my door with timing chains and gallons of motor oil ..
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:57:15 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sherri...once you
type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
go into the main
menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
them. Underneath will be a bar...click,hold,and
scroll to the room you
want. click on
it, and you're there! See you!
Sherri wrote:
>
> cool barb...
how does one access Babblemania? Sherri
>
> ----------
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Chat Site
>
> Hi there,
> I spoke with the creator of Optichat,
and he said he'd be glad to
> create a
room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> Anyhow, he
maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
>
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> fairly lucky
in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> particular
word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> twisted way,
anyhow. The chat is fast there,
too...almost like irc.
> The other
option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> talk
privately)
> Well, I'm just acting on a suggestion
I saw earlier...I think a good
> one. I'd like to see how you think/react/chat in
"real" time.
> Dan also
said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> (if beta
were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> Maybe those
interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> what folks
think.
> The address is
http://www.optichat.com/
>
> I will be in
the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> left hand
side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> would be 10
East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> to do your
own math!). For now...lets meet in
Babblemania (seems sort
> of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> Thanks,
> Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:03:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
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James,
My unofficial
calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead.
Should we
just go for it at
this point? What do you want to read?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:21:10 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: God <<still digging>>
In-Reply-To:
<970702010429_-991644834@emout03.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:04 PM -0700
7/1/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-07-01 11:22:13 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Can you even start to imagine
what grasping the wholeness of human
> knowledge
> and the universe in one instant would be
like? >>
>
>
ummm.......actually?.......yes!
Maya, I've
decided you're ugly lookin..... <<laugh>> with my eyeballs
direcly at you
<<smirk>> ;-)
> ---maya
Douglas <<still laughin, I might be
dyin....>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:21:36 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:01 PM -0700
7/1/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> automatic writing is an excellent exercise,
esp. if you have writer's
> block. First thing in the morning is best too,
because you're still under
> the
influence of dreams.
dreamed I was in
chicago, trying to track down some friends.
they'd all
moved, I had the
wrong apartments, or the city itself had changed. there
were hills where
I remembered none. there were fields of
weeds where there
should be
none. Who am I? cops were chasing young kids down into dirt
lots. They're that way, I said.
maybe automatic
writing is a way to find your friends, the one's you've
lost for whatever
reason, the what not. and finding them,
holding them,
fucking holding
them, tight and tight and tight still I could squeeze the
life essence out
of em. that is my dream. yes.
<<it is>> Diana,
Claudine, Sean...
where are you?
>
>
---------------just a thought-----------maya
Douglas <<on a thread of his own>>
PS: Maya, what were those <<bells>>
that you heard???
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:02:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: btw
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear friends, im'
reading "La leggenda di Duluoz" [THE LEGEND OF DULUOZ]
by Jack Keroauc,
edit by Ann Charters, JK works are a long bestseller here
in italy!--- yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:05:28 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: pier paolo pasolini.
In-Reply-To: <l03020901afdecd9a5505@[198.5.212.50]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Douglas wrote:
[s/thing snipped
for brevity]
>don't know
Ezra Pound at all
>"Salo"
by piero pasolini has my love
>a fetching
carrot, // Douglas
dear Douglas,
pier paolo has
his brother killed by
fascists during
the italian civil
war in 1945, this
was,
a thread in his
works (poetries&films),
his first film
"Accattone" was a milestone
'cuz introduce
the vernacular language &
actors street
urchin (neorealismo).
pier paolo
pasolini was killed in a cruel
way in 1975,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*
"E cosi' ce
ne andremo perdendo a una a una
Anche le parole
piu' care, ed arrivando
Fino a Dio con
carte bianche, ma forse
con visi piu'
sereni: mon lecteur, mon frere"
poetry by
venetian poet Giacomo Noventa
*
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:18:19 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
Comments: To:
MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
In-Reply-To: <3BA68810.@otc.usoc.cchub.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Wed, 2 Jul
1997, MATT HANNAN wrote:
>
<snips>
> How do we
know that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
> then if they
are who they say they are.
<snip>
dementia is right
the secret is
nobody is anything, the secret is that objectivity is never
there (except
maybe in ayn rand's mind) and gregory corso "you never step in
the same river
_once_."
or the voice
that's either in or out of james cole's mind:
"no way to
con_firm_ anything."
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:51:10 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
good one matt
<grins>
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
MATT HANNAN
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 5:30 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.
<snips>
How do we know
that anyone is anyone if we haven't met them and even
then if they are
who they say they are.
The whole list
may just be one big multiple personality illusion.
I cannot help but
think that there is something about this debate that
produces
dementia. It's a trip to the twilight
zone. Everytime it
surfaces the
strangest allegations start to be made.
graduate to being part of the evil Sampas
gang, with its tentacles
reaching from Lowell to Seattle. Funny, isn't it.
<end el snips>
Y'all have much more invested in this than
me, that's for sure. It
brings to mind some of the great events in
history:
"Mr. Reagan"
"Yes, Senator McCarthy"
"Are you a communist?"
or
"Why can't we all just get
along"
or, best put
Ginsberg (as Alvah Goldbook in DB) "I
know my redeemer liveth"
Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
(there, managed to work a Beat quote in
that covers two recent hot
topics on the list)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:16:20 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: suspicious tentacles
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Matt writ:
><< or, best put
>
> Ginsberg (as Alvah Goldbook in DB) "I
know my redeemer liveth"
> Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
> (there, managed to work a Beat quote in
that covers two recent hot
> topics on the list)
>>
Yes, but don't
ask me to be the straight man. Or the
thin man. He
cometh!
This list has a
good mix of creative, academic, and pure Beat.
IMHO, we
should try to
keep it like that. AND FEED OFF EACH
OTHER <ahem>.
Definitely
appreciated the tie-in there, Matt. Am
on my way to the
bookstore
tonite <<VOC, Port o' Kerouac,
??>>.
>
>> love and lilies,
>>
>> matt
Douglas <<tempting fate via backchannel, if
necessary>>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:14:08 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>
> James,
>
> My
unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
> just go for
it at this point? What do you want to
read?
>
> DC
I unofficially
checked out Cody today from the public library and will
probably at least
get one paragraph done before the afternoon siesta
takes control of
my being.
After the first
paragraph depends on whether i go to Denver tomorrow
which is up to
supernatural forces i'm not familiar with.
Certainly
will carry Cody
along -- just not much certainty how many pages will be
digested.
If i go the
Denver route i look forward to a return to a thread about
this Cody
character and visions and whatnot. If i
don't make the Denver
expedition i
imagine that i'll be participating in the thread by
afternoon tomorrow
at this time.
if another book
takes the lead -- please let me know so that i can stop
reading this one
and go on a hunting expedition for that one.
if i go
to Denver i hope
to increase my Beat library at used bookstores if they
exist.
shalom,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:42:04 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 12:14 PM
7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Diane Carter
wrote:
>>
>> James,
>>
>> My
unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
>> just go
for it at this point? What do you want
to read?
>>
>> DC
>
>I
unofficially checked out Cody today from the public library ...
What does
"unoficially checked out" mean?
Does this mean
you stole it?
If so, don't do
that. That messes things up for
everyone.
If you want to
steal this book steal it from a bookstore.
Or if you don't
want to buy it, officially check it out from the library.
If the above
doesn't mean you stole it then ignore this message.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:44:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 12:14 PM
7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Diane
Carter wrote:
> >>
> >>
James,
> >>
> >> My
unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
> >>
just go for it at this point? What do
you want to read?
> >>
> >> DC
> >
> >I
unofficially checked out Cody today from the public library ...
>
> What does
"unoficially checked out" mean?
>
> Does this
mean you stole it?
>
> If so, don't
do that. That messes things up for everyone.
>
> If you want
to steal this book steal it from a bookstore.
>
> Or if you
don't want to buy it, officially check it out from the library.
>
> If the above
doesn't mean you stole it then ignore this message.
i did not
"liberate" Cody. the
unofficially was a connection to the
previous
post. i did check it out according to
normal library
procedures and
have my month of month and a half to treat it with my
loving care.
i've not
"liberated" books in a long time.
though it is something i
might have done
back in the crazier days of my FireWalk years.
back
then it was not a
wise idea to suggest i read something someday and
point to it in
your personal collection. but i'm
reformed, i'm
reformed, i'm
reformed!!!! patricia can attest to my
replacement of
burroughs'
retreat diaries in the box in her basement where it was
stored before i
read it.
hope all is well
in the land of the where-ever and when-ever y'all are
today. i'm about to lay down with ole Cody and get a
paragraph at least
in my brain
before drifting into siesta-ville.
thanks for the
sermon tim. us reformed
"liberators" can use a good
reminder now and
then.
take care all,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:41:30 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: freshman clearing house
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<<Ok, one
thought and I'm oughta here>>
> Kerouac (as Ray Smith) "What redeemer
and what liveth?"
In
"Kerouac" <hm> trying to get the spelling right, I noticed that
the
only vowel
missing from his name is "I".
Kerouac is missing an eye.
missing his
i. I think I feel we have his i and it
should beat that
way. chi-i-kerouac
>lickity spat,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:04:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: summer reading project
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:44 PM
7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> At 12:14
PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>Diane Carter wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
James,
>> >>
>> >>
My unofficial calculations show Vision of Cody in the lead. Should we
>> >>
just go for it at this point? What do
you want to read?
>> >>
>> >>
DC
>> >
>> >I
unofficially checked out Cody today from the public library ...
>>
>> What
does "unoficially checked out" mean?
>>
>> Does
this mean you stole it?
>>
>> If so,
don't do that. That messes things up for
everyone.
>>
>> If you
want to steal this book steal it from a bookstore.
>>
>> Or if
you don't want to buy it, officially check it out from the library.
>>
>> If the
above doesn't mean you stole it then ignore this message.
>
>i did not
"liberate" Cody. the
unofficially was a connection to the
>previous
post. i did check it out according to
normal library
>procedures
and have my month of month and a half to treat it with my
>loving care.
>
>i've not
"liberated" books in a long time.
though it is something i
>might have
done back in the crazier days of my FireWalk years. back
>then it was
not a wise idea to suggest i read something someday and
>point to it
in your personal collection. but i'm
reformed, i'm
>reformed, i'm
reformed!!!! patricia can attest to my
replacement of
>burroughs'
retreat diaries in the box in her basement where it was
>stored before
i read it.
>
>hope all is
well in the land of the where-ever and when-ever y'all are
>today. i'm about to lay down with ole Cody and get a
paragraph at least
>in my brain
before drifting into siesta-ville.
>
>thanks for
the sermon tim. us reformed
"liberators" can use a good
>reminder now
and then.
I became so sick
of looking up articles on kerouac or the beats or related
topics in old
magazines in libraries, going to the stacks, finding the old
issue and opening
up the bound volume and finding out that the article had
been ropped out.
Also, the same
sort of thing with these books being stolen from libraries.
I didn't read the
other posts you referred to so I didn't know what
"unofficial"
meant.
I must admit In
my day I also stole books from stores.
And I never stole
any from a
library but sometimes I didn't turn them back in.
So for you
youngsters out there wonking is bad juju.
But today books are so
expensive. They are all now in the large paperback
format.
Find a good used
book store and haunt it.
>
>take care
all,
>
>david rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:15:49 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: summer reading project
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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>After the
first paragraph depends on whether i go to Denver tomorrow
Madam Butterfly
is playing at the Central City Opera....you could
relive OTC (sure
they didn't see Madam...however)
if i go to Denver
i hope to increase my Beat library at used bookstores
if they exist.
Tattered Cover in Denver of course....or
The Beat Bookshop in Boulder
(everything from First/Second Edition Town
and City's to 99th run
Subterraneans. (and they have the coolest t-shirts....ooops,
2nd
coolest next to the BEAT-L shirt....)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:43:14 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Sherri, I'm not
sure I understand your question...it's the
internet...type
in underlocation http://www.optichat.com/
It should take
you there... (Are you behind a firewall or something?)
Barb
Sherri wrote:
>
> Barb, Thanks for the info. I'm on msn... what website do i need to go to
in
> the first
place? Ciao, Sherri
>
> ----------
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:57 AM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
>
>
Sherri...once you type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
> go into the
main menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
> them. Underneath will be a bar...click,hold,and
scroll to the room you
> want. click
on it, and you're there! See you!
>
> Sherri
wrote:
> >
> > cool
barb... how does one access Babblemania?
Sherri
> >
> >
----------
> >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> >
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> >
Subject: Chat Site
> >
> > Hi
there,
> > I spoke with the creator of Optichat,
and he said he'd be glad to
> > create
a room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> > Anyhow,
he maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
> >
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> > no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> > fairly
lucky in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> >
particular word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> > twisted
way, anyhow. The chat is fast there,
too...almost like irc.
> > The
other option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> > talk
privately)
> > Well, I'm just acting on a suggestion
I saw earlier...I think a good
> >
one. I'd like to see how you
think/react/chat in "real" time.
> > Dan
also said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> > (if
beta were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> > Maybe
those interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> > what
folks think.
> > The address is
http://www.optichat.com/
> >
> > I will
be in the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> > left
hand side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> > would
be 10 East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> > to do
your own math!). For now...lets meet in
Babblemania (seems sort
> > of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> > Thanks,
> > Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:04:12 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Douglas wrote:
> and is this
why Andre Breton says "beauty must be repulsive"?? To reach
>'all-beauty'
would one soon be repulsed by everything??
Andre Breton is a
man unto himself. I have never really completely dug
him (although his
Surrealist Manifesto is interesting - read abridged
version off
internet). His discipline and commitment can be seen as
having been
political = Communist, which may have interfered with art:
playing the role
of dictator to the Surrealist movement . . . so . . . I
am hesitant to
fully give value to "beauty must be repulsive" . . .
shouldn't it be:
'beauty is overwhelming' ?
> Still wish
you would explain that Yahweh/Moses ---> back/shoulders paradox.
'back/shoulders'
of God is a personification. We have gone through how
personification
of the celestial seems illusory = paradoxical, but then
again not really,
it is just an easier symbol-system to comprehend the
powers that be
through very human features - nothing wrong in that.
> and where to
go from there? back down the mountain??
we talk mountain
we look up-
the valley is deep
> please don't
let me ask about the "burning bush" in this context, please don't
let me ask, please... <<laughing>>
yeah . . . the
only thing i can say is that the Hebrew Scriptures are
wonderful for
fooling around poetically: biblical rhythm, themes,
characters . . .
I am trying to
read through it . . . presently on "Numbers"; Genesis &
Exodus were good;
Leviticus is mostly describing the intricacies of the
Law; Song of
Songs attributed to King Solomon is nice - it uses
"Beloved",
"Lover", & "Poet" speakers - i plan to fool around with
this
concept
("Beloved" are the people of Israel, "Lover" is God,
"Poet" is
author = myself)
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:16:40 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: How to love a woman long distance...
In a message
dated 97-06-25 01:49:03 EDT, dkpenn@OEES.COM (Penn, Douglas, K)
writes:
<<
"How to best love a woman who lives 125 miles away?"
Please respond in a BEAT manner. cheers, Douglas
>>
I would say if
you want to have a long distance relationship, you should try
to stretch it out
for as long as you can.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:16:40 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Eastward Journey, part II
Well,
Still on the
road. Left LA, after not really doing much there at all other
then drive. Was
going to stop by the Viper Room in Beverly Hills, and ask
Johnny Depp if I
could borrow his $50,000 raincoat.
Drove to Las
Vegas on Wednesday, stayed at the Luxor Hotel, which is the
pyramid type
building. Ask for the package deal, and they give you a free
lunch buffet
voucher. But I will tell you this, the buffet on a scale 1 - 10
was about a 4.
Not very good. Normally would cost $5.99.
Walked and drove
around to many of the hotels/casinos. Won some money but
lost even more.
Gambling was only a few dollars here and there (ok, I ended
up losing $37
which I am not too happy about). I can't say that I was feeling
very lucky but I
thought I would do better.
Vegas is now half
kids, half glitz, and half plaid shorts. I think the
building
architecture and neon lights make up for it though.
Got off on a late
start the next day and stopped off at the Hoover Dam. I was
glad, I thought
it was named for Edgar Hoover, Under Cover man in women's
undercovers. But
it is named for President Herbert Hoover. That was a lot of
cement poured
into that valley.
Don't know how
far I was suppose to get that day, but I found myself in
Laughlin at 8 pm,
and saw the sign that said rooms $17, so I had to stay. It
is located right
on the Colorado River, border of Arizona.
Next day went to
Oatman Arizona (24 miles or so from Bullhead City). This was
my first jouney
on to the mother road, Route 66. On the outskirts of town,
the tumbleweed
bushes are decorated with x-mas stuff (tinsel and bulbs and
other x-mas
stuff). Oatman was a thriving mining
community of 10,000 people
at one point,
then a ghost town of 50 people, and now a tourist town of a few
100. And some
wild burros that roam the street (I would say streets, but
there is only one
street-- old Route 66). From there it was a twisty road to
Route 40. I don't
think that even Neal could have cruised these roads at
faster then 30
miles an hour. From there drove non-stop
to Amarillo (yellow
in spanish), it
was some 900 + miles.
About 63 miles
from a town called Tumucari (was that in Texas or New Mexico,
who the hell
knows) a giant something smashes into my windshield. It was the
biggest bug I
have ever hit. Left a patch of goo and blob 4 inches by 5
inches.
Saw of course
Caddillac Ranch, which is on the west side of Amarillo. It is
10 caddillacs
buried next to what was Route 66, now Route 40, pointing west.
If you are
traveling west, it will be on your left side (I think mile marker
86).
Also hiked in
Palo Duro Canyon, which they say is the 2nd largest canyon in
the US. It is
pretty wild because you can drive down to the bottom of the
canyon. It is
about 24 miles outside of Amarillo.
Right now, living
it up in a Motel 6.
Tom Bodell and I
say, enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:52:31 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
Reply to message
from lisar@NET-LINK.NET of Tue, 01 Jul
>
>And
considering that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list here
>personally,
met them, had coffee with them nor shared in their lives, which
>includes you
sherri, maybe you do not exist either.
>
According to
Roland Barthes, none of us exist, since in order to truly
interpret
literature the author must be "dead", and so as each of us reads
the others'
messages the original author no longer exists; he/she/it must
give way--the
reader has taken over. The only good I
ever found in that
essay was that
BArthes didn't exist, either, then.
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:18:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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7bit
JN wrote:
<<shouldn't
it be: 'beauty is overwhelming' ?>>
but then the
object of beauty wouldn't be "attractive" (as opposed to
repulsive).
Have been
thinking about this a bit, since its inception here on the
list. Are all women beautiful? This question has dogged me for years.
<<I need
more training, methodological and *physical*, ug!>> Thinking
of the
virgin/whore paradigm. Mary who birthed
him, while the other
brings him water
and bathes him.
Look forward to
hearing more about Jan Kerouac.
<<perhaps
this should all be backchannel??>>
Have always been
searching for beauty. The perfect
woman. the perfect
mate. even seriously considered men for a
while. An impossible task.
how fleeting, my
past pursuits. how eyes deceive us. Have been talking
backchannel about
art, process and results with a fellow beetle.
How
when the process
is all through, all one really has is results :: when
beauty has been
completed, one is left with a substance.
a solid
ground. hopefully
a common ground. Who knows? <<still searching>>
yes, *I know*,
perfection can not be achieved.............
<<
>we talk
mountain
> we look up-
> the valley
is deep
>>
If you have the
opportunity, listen to the Butthole Surfer's latest
musical hit,
"pepper." I only know bits of
the lyrics: [[ ~~~ some
have died in hot
pursuit, sifting thru my ashes, coming down the
mountain ~~~~
images I've seen, some can hit you through your eyes,
others in between.
]] All atop a snake coiling backbeat, a
guitar
melodic in its
abstractions, high above the words. and
the video is
great!! <<On my way to lunch, this song seemed
very appropo.>>
>
><<yeah
. . . the only thing i can say is that the Hebrew Scriptures are
>wonderful for
fooling around poetically: biblical rhythm, themes,
characters . .
.>>
my grandfather
worked in a garage his whole life.
learned to play piano
late in
life. took walks after dinner. watched johnny carson, benny
hill. Then sat down in his favorite chair and read
the bible. finally,
he went to
sleep <<prostate
cancer>>. Don't know what part he
got up
to, but I imagine
him there reading. In my dreams he talks
to me, and
all he usually
says is "Douglas." <<I'm
waiting...>>
>gotta keep
reading. Let me know how it ends,
Yes? Cheers.
> JN
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:24:39 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> JN wrote:
>
>
<<shouldn't it be: 'beauty is overwhelming' ?>>
>
> but then the
object of beauty wouldn't be "attractive" (as opposed to
> repulsive).
>
> Have been
thinking about this a bit, since its inception here on the
> list. Are all women beautiful? This question has dogged me for years.
> <<I
need more training, methodological and *physical*, ug!>> Thinking
> of the
virgin/whore paradigm. Mary who birthed
him, while the other
> brings him
water and bathes him.
>
> Look forward
to hearing more about Jan Kerouac.
>
>
<<perhaps this should all be backchannel??>>
>
> Have always
been searching for beauty. The perfect
woman. the perfect
> mate. even seriously considered men for a
while. An impossible task.
> how
fleeting, my past pursuits. how eyes
deceive us. Have been talking
> backchannel
about art, process and results with a fellow beetle. How
> when the
process is all through, all one really has is results :: when
> beauty has
been completed, one is left with a substance.
a solid
> ground.
hopefully a common ground. Who
knows? <<still searching>>
>
> yes, *I
know*, perfection can not be achieved.............
>
> <<
> >we talk
mountain
> > we look up-
> > the
valley is deep
> >>
>
> If you have
the opportunity, listen to the Butthole Surfer's latest
> musical hit,
"pepper." I only know bits of
the lyrics: [[ ~~~ some
> have died in
hot pursuit, sifting thru my ashes, coming down the
> mountain
~~~~ images I've seen, some can hit you through your eyes,
> others in
between. ]] All atop a snake coiling
backbeat, a guitar
> melodic in
its abstractions, high above the words.
and the video is
> great!! <<On my way to lunch, this song seemed
very appropo.>>
> >
>
><<yeah . . . the only thing i can say is that the Hebrew Scriptures
are
>
>wonderful for fooling around poetically: biblical rhythm, themes,
> characters .
. .>>
>
> my
grandfather worked in a garage his whole life.
learned to play piano
> late in
life. took walks after dinner. watched johnny carson, benny
> hill. Then sat down in his favorite chair and read
the bible. finally,
> he went to
sleep <<prostate
cancer>>. Don't know what part he
got up
> to, but I
imagine him there reading. In my dreams
he talks to me, and
> all he
usually says is "Douglas."
<<I'm waiting...>>
>
> >gotta
keep reading. Let me know how it ends,
Yes? Cheers.
>
> > JN
the teenagers are
run out of BabbleMania if anyone interested in
chatting about
this junk
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:52:24 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Chat Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
David.... the
place is relatively new...and isn't used that much. I
thought we could
fill a vacuum! (which nature, of course, abhors) It
would be an easy
site to occupy, esp. if Dan sets up a Beat chat room.
I'm glad you
stopped by...
barb
will be on
tonight
RACE --- wrote:
>
> Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
> >
> >
Sherri...once you type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
> > go into
the main menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
> >
them. Underneath will be a
bar...click,hold,and scroll to the room you
> > want.
click on it, and you're there! See you!
> >
> > Sherri
wrote:
> > >
> > >
cool barb... how does one access Babblemania?
Sherri
> > >
> > >
----------
> > >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> > >
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> > >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > >
Subject: Chat Site
> > >
> > > Hi
there,
> >
> I spoke with the creator of
Optichat, and he said he'd be glad to
> > >
create a room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> > >
Anyhow, he maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
> > >
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> > > no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> > >
fairly lucky in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> > >
particular word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> > >
twisted way, anyhow. The chat is fast
there, too...almost like irc.
> > >
The other option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> > >
talk privately)
> >
> Well, I'm just acting on a
suggestion I saw earlier...I think a
good
> > >
one. I'd like to see how you
think/react/chat in "real" time.
> > >
Dan also said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> > >
(if beta were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> > >
Maybe those interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> > >
what folks think.
> >
> The address is
http://www.optichat.com/
> > >
> > > I
will be in the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> > >
left hand side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> > >
would be 10 East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> > > to
do your own math!). For now...lets meet
in Babblemania (seems sort
> > > of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> > >
Thanks,
> > >
Barb
>
> i went over
to see what it was like at 4:00 central time.
certainly a
> lot of
teenagers to run off.
>
> teenagers
that type slower than my Dead Grandmother i might add :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
>
> p.s. i might
be free at 9 to jump in the room I think i know how to get
> to
Babblemania now. thanks and all that.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:42:43 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: BOMB by Gregory Corso (was re:gregory corso?)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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BOMB by Gregory Corso
Budger of history Brake of time
You Bomb
Toy of universe Grandest of all snatched-sky I cannot hate you
Do I hate the mischievous thunderlbolt the jawbone of an ass
The bumpy club of On Million B.C. the mace
the flail the axe
Catapulte Da Vinci tomahawke Cochise flintlock Kidd dagger Rathbone
Ah and the sad desperate gun of Verlaine Pushkin
Dillinger Bogart
And hath not St. Michael a burning sword St. George a lance David a sling
Bomb
you are as cruel as man makes you
and you're no crueller than cancer
All man hates you the'd rather die by car-crash lightining
drowing
Falling off a roof electric-chair heart-attack
old age old age O Bomb
They'd rather die by anything but
you Death's finger is free-lance
Not up to man wheter you boom or not Death has long since distribuited its
categorical blue I sing thee Bomb Death's extravagance Death's jubilee
Gem of Death's supremest blue The flyer will crash his death will differ
with the climber who'll fall To die by cobra is not to die by bad pork
Some die by swamp
some by sea and some by the bushy-haired man in the night
O there are deaths like witches of Arc Scary deaths like Boris Karloff
No-feeling deaths like birth-death sadless deaths like old pain Bowery
Abandoned deaths like Capital Punishment stately deaths like
senators
And unthinkable deaths like Harpo Marx girls on
vogue covers my own
I do not know just how orrible
Bombdeath is I can only image
Yet no other death I know has so
laughable a preview I scope
a city
New York City streaming starkeyed
subway shelter
Scores and scores A fumble of humanity High beels bend
Hats whelming away Youth forgetting their combs
Ladies not knowing what to do with
their shopping bags
Unperturbed gum machines Yet dangerous 3rd rail
Ritz Brothers from the Bronx caught in the A train
The smiling Schenley poster
will always smile
Implish Death Satyr Bomb
Bombdeath
Turtles
exploding over Istambul
The jaguar's
flying foot
soon to sink in
arctic snow
Penguins plunged
against the Sphinx
The top of the Empire
State Bulding
arrowed in a broccoli
field in Sicily
Eiffel shaped like C in
Magnolia Gardens
St. Sophia peeling
over Sudan
O athletic Death Sportive Bomb
The temple of
ancient times
their grand
ruine ceased
Electrons Protons
Neutrons
gathering
Hesperean hair
walking the dolorous
golf of Arcady
joing marble
helmsmen
entering the final
amphitheatre
with a hymnody feeling
of all Troys
heralding cypressean
torches
racing plumes and
banners
and yet knowing Homer with a
step of grace
Lo the visiting team of
Present
the home team of Past
Lyre and tuba together
joined
Hark the hotdog soda
olive grape
gala galaxy robed and uniformed
commissary O the happy stands
Ethereal root and
cheer and boo
The billioned all-time
attendance
The Zeusian
pandemonium
Hermes racing
Owens
the Spitball of Buddha
Christ
striking out
Luther stealing
third
Planetarium Death Hosannah Bomb
Gush the final
rose O Spring Bomb
Come with thy gown of dynamite
green
unmenance Nature's
inviolate eye
Before you the
wimpled Past
behind you the hallooing Future O
Bomb
Bound in the grassy
clarion air
like the fox of the
tally-ho
thy field the universe thy
hedge the geo
Leap Bomb bound Bomb
frolic zig and zag
The stars a swarm of bees in
the binging bag
Stick angels on your
jubilee feet
wheels of rainlight on your
bunky seat
You are due and behold you
are due
and the heavens are
with you
hosannah incalescent glorious liaision
BOMB O avoc antiphony molten
cleft BOOM
Bomb mark infinity a
sudden furnace
spread thy multidinous
encompassed Sweep
set forth awful
agenda
Carrion stars charnel planets carcass elements
Corpse the universe tee-hee
finger-in-the mounth hop
over its long long dead
Nor
From thy nimbled matted
spastic eye
exhsaust delegues of
celestial ghouls
From thy appellational
womb
spew birth-gusts of great
worms
Rip open your belly
Bomb
from your belly outflock vulturic salutations
Battle forth your spangled hyena
finger stumps
along the brick of
Paradis
O Bomb O final Pied Paradise
both sun and firefly behind
your shock waltz
God abandoned mock-nude
beneath His thin false-talc'd
apocalypse
He cannot hear thy
flute's
happy-the-day
profanation
He is spilled deaf into the
Silencer's warty ear
His Kingdom an eternity of
crude wax
Clogged clarions
untrumpet Him
Selead angels unsing
Him
A thunderless God A dead God
O Bomb
thy BOOM His tomb
That i lean forward on a desk
of science
an astrologer dabbling in dragon
prose
half-smart about wars bombs
especially bombs
That I am unable to hate what is necessary
to love
That i can't exist in a world
that consents
a child in a park a man dying in an electric-chair
That I am able to laugh at
all things
all that I know and do not know thus to conceal my pain
That I say I am a poet and
therefore love all man
and my unwords no less an
acquaintanceship
That I am
manifold
a man pursuing the big
lies of gold
or a poet roaming in
bright ashes
or that which I image
myself to be
a shark-toothed sleep a man-eater od dreams
I need not then be all-smart
about bombs
Happily do for it I felt bombs were caterpillars
I'd doubt not they'd
become butterflies
There is a hell
for bombs
They're there I see them there
They sit in bits and sing songs
mostly German
songs
and two very long American
songs
and they wish there were
more songs
especcialy Russian and
Chinese songs
and some more very long
American songs
Poor little Bomb
that'll never be
an Eskimo song I love thee
I want to put a
lollipop
in thy furcal
mouth
A wig of Goldilocks on thy
baldy bean
and have you skip with me
Hansel and Gretel
along the Hollywoodian
screen
O Bomb in which all lovely
things
moral or phisical anxiously
partecipate
O fairlyflake plucked
from the
grandest universe
tree
O piece of heaven which
gives
both mountain and anthill
a sun
I am standing before your
fantastic lily door
I bring you Midgardian
roses Arcadian musk
Reputed cosmetics from the
girls of heaven
Welcome me fear not thy opened door
nor thy cold ghost's grey
memory
nor the pimps of indefinite
weather
their cruel terrestrial
thaw
Oppenheimer is
seated
in the dark pocket
of Light
Fermi is dry in Death's
Mozambique
Einstein his
mythmouth
a barnacled wreath on the
moon-squid's head
Let me in Bomb
rise from thet pregnant-rat corner
nor fear the raised-broom nations of the world
O Bomb I love
you
I want to kiss your clanck eat your boom
You are a pean an acme of scream
a lyric hat of Mister
Thunder
O resound thy tanky
knees
BOOM BOOM
BOOM BOOM BOOM
BOOM ye skies and BOOM
ye suns
BOOM BOOM ye moons
ye clouds ye rains
go BANG ye lakes ye oceans BING
Barracuda BOOM and
coguar BOOM
Ubangi BANG orangoutang
BIG BANG BONG BOOM bee bear baboon
ye BANG ye BONG ye
BING
the tail the fin
the wing
Yes Yes
into our midst a bomb will fall
Flowers will leap in joy their
roots aching
Pinkbombs will blossom Elkbombs will perk their ears
Ah many a bomb that day will awe the
bird a gentle look
Yet not anough to say a bomb will fall
or even contend celestial fire
goes out
Know that the earth will madonna
the Bomb
that in the hearts of men to come more
bombs will be born
magisterial bombs wrapped in
ermine all beatiful
and they'll sit plunk on
earth's grumpy empires
fierce with moustaches
of gold
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
>Return-Path:
<owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:33:36 -0500
>Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>Subject: gregory corso?
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Ksenija,
>The Corso
line you were asking about is from line 15 of Corso's
>poem
"Bomb"; in English it reads," To die by cobra is not to die
>by bad
pork." "Bomb" was originally published as a broadside, and
>later was
collected in _The Happy Birthday of Death_ as a foldout
>in that
volume, surely one of the few books of poetry ever published
>with a
centerfold.
>Cordially,
>Mike Skau
>7/1/97
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:18:44 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: BOMB by Gregory Corso (was re:gregory
corso?)
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970702234243.006a3f24@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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one of my
favorites by corso.
isn't that the
poem he recites in fried shoes, or cookies or something at
naropa?
btw
hi rinaldo.
mc
think i'll spend
some time with elegaic feelings tonite
mc
btw
how the hell are
ya, R?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:29:38 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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David writ:
>
><<the
teenagers are run out of BabbleMania if anyone interested in
chatting about
this junk>>
Douglas, pulling
a quote from Joyce's Ulysses (p25), declines:
---How, sir? Comyn asked.
A bridge is across a river.
For Haines's chapbook. No-one here to hear. Tonight deftly amid wild
drink and talk,
to pierce the polished mail of his mind.
What then? A
jester at the
court of his master, indulged and disesteemed, winning a
clement master's
praise. Why had they chosen all that
part? Not wholly
for the smooth
caress. For them too history was a tale
like any other
too often heard,
their land a pawnshop.
Had Pyrrhus not fallen by a beldam's
hand in Argos or Julius Caesar not
been knifed to
death? They are not to be thought
away. Time has
branded them and
fettered they are logded in the room of
the infinite
possibilities they have ousted. But can those have been possible
seeing that they
never were? Or was that only possible
which came to
pass? Weave, weaver of the wind.
---Tell us a story, sir.
>
=-=-=-=-=-
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
<<sorry for
the indulgence>> Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:27:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Chat Site and Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Mike &
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> Sherri, I'm
not sure I understand your question...it's the
>
internet...type in underlocation http://www.optichat.com/
> It should
take you there... (Are you behind a firewall or something?)
> Barb
>
> Sherri
wrote:
> >
> >
Barb, Thanks for the info. I'm on msn... what website do i need to go to
in
> > the
first place? Ciao, Sherri
> >
> >
----------
> >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> >
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:57 AM
> >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Chat Site
> >
> >
Sherri...once you type in your name..or pseudo..and hit enter, you will
> > go into
the main menu where you can see the list of rooms and who is in
> >
them. Underneath will be a
bar...click,hold,and scroll to the room you
> > want.
click on it, and you're there! See you!
> >
> > Sherri
wrote:
> > >
> > >
cool barb... how does one access Babblemania?
Sherri
> > >
> > >
----------
> > >
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Mike & Barbara Wirtz
> > >
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 4:24 PM
> > >
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > >
Subject: Chat Site
> > >
> > > Hi
there,
> >
> I spoke with the creator of
Optichat, and he said he'd be glad to
> > >
create a room for those with Beat interests.
(awfully nice of him)
> > >
Anyhow, he maintains two sites: one which I prefer is an automatic
> > >
scroll...there are no private commands...it's public chat, but there are
> > > no
monitors..only a filter...can't say fuck etc ...but I have been
> > >
fairly lucky in being able to express my ideas without needing that
> > >
particular word...and it's so much fun being colorful in a new and
> > >
twisted way, anyhow. The chat is fast
there, too...almost like irc.
> > >
The other option is the beta room...where html commands work (so you can
> > >
talk privately)
> >
> Well, I'm just acting on a
suggestion I saw earlier...I think a
good
> > >
one. I'd like to see how you
think/react/chat in "real" time.
> > >
Dan also said if someone who knows html wanted to design the entry page
> > >
(if beta were chosen) that would be just groovy.
> > >
Maybe those interested could go check it out tomorrow and we can see
> > >
what folks think.
> >
> The address is http://www.optichat.com/
> > >
> > > I
will be in the first optichat (scroll down, choose the chat on the
> > >
left hand side of the page....I'll be there 7pm West Coast time...that
> > >
would be 10 East Coast time (those of you in the middle....you'll have
> > > to
do your own math!). For now...lets meet
in Babblemania (seems sort
> > > of
Kerouac-like anyhow)...Hope to meet some of you for some input.
> > >
Thanks,
> > >
Barb
well i chatted a
bit -- it is OK. my fingerspeed helps me
in the sport
although my
ignorance of the technology is a weakness.
i recommend it
to folks. if several Beat-L'ers join it can easily
overwhelm the
conversation to
whatever subject we agree upon. of
course, agreement on
a subject will
probably be about as easy as agreement on a summer
reading project
:)
read the first
paragraph of Cody. it was
olfactory. a sense i have
little of. but i kinda got the gist of it.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:48:25 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> David writ:
> >
>
><<the teenagers are run out of BabbleMania if anyone interested in
> chatting
about this junk>>
>
> Douglas, pulling
a quote from Joyce's Ulysses (p25), declines:
>
> ---How, sir? Comyn asked.
A bridge is across a river unless it is
across a train-track or a highway or a road.
> For Haines's chapbook. No-one here to hear. Tonight deftly amid wild
> drink and
talk, to pierce the polished mail of his mind -- he laughs to
himself at the notion that anyone would find
his mind polished. He explores
the mail metaphor through his various synapses
for three hours and falls asleep
in a snowstorm that the mental pony express
could not deliver through. What
then?
The black nothingness of sleep follows.
A
> jester at
the court of his master, indulged and disesteemed, winning a
> clement
master's praise. The jester picks up an
electric guitar at Newport
and is thrown out of the court for not being
folky. The jester smiles and
flies far ahead of the crowd to a watchtower
where he and Isaiah scope the
scene of the centuries. Why had they chosen all that part? Isaiah questions
whether it was much of a choice. The other parts weren't worth crap anyway.
Not wholly
> for the
smooth caress. The Jester laughs and
imagines a rough caress or two
as well.
For them too history was a tale like any other
> too often
heard, their land a pawnshop. And the
trinkets of yesteryear were
sold by a blind man with a silver tooth who
never lost a bit to shoplifters and
wasn't a bad pickpocket either.
> Had Pyrrhus not fallen by a beldam's
hand in Argos or Julius Caesar
not
> been knifed
to death? Had they not, had they not,
they would have died
nonetheless.
They are not to be thought away.
Time has
> branded them
and fettered they are logded in the room
of the infinite
>
possibilities they have ousted. But a wormhole has taken them into the hive
of a flat earth society gathering north of
Parker Arizona near the Colorado
River with a bridge over it like many bridges
are. But can those have been
possible seeing that they never were? Or was that only possible which came to
pass?
Passing through the illusions of time and space over the river and
through the woods we gather on the bridge and
wonder whether we should perform
a collective Jump. Weave, weaver of the wind.
> ---Tell us a story, sir.
> >
> =-=-=-=-=-
>
> >>
david rhaesa
> >>
salina, Kansas
>
>
<<sorry for the indulgence>> Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:12:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Beauty and stuff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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David writ:
<<
>> ---How, sir? Comyn asked.
A bridge is across a river unless it is
> across a
train-track or a highway or a road.
>>
Yes, I hear them
now. short like stacks of smoke. a sound of always
moving. Are you there still, David? David?
shoe, chew, chew, chew
<I know I
can> Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:45:29 EDT
Reply-To: Marcus Williamson <71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marcus Williamson
<71333.1665@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Kenneth Patchen tribute
A tribute to the
life and work of poet and artist Kenneth Patchen (1911-1972) is
being held at the
Naropa Institute, Boulder, Colorado, July 9 - July 12 1997.
For further
information please see :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Patchen/
Thanks &
regards
Marcus Williamson
London, UK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:01:06 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re:
automatic writing
i dreamt last night of an animal, furry
with sharp teeth like a bat but
not a bat, more
like a rabbit. someone was holding it
down and another
person, perhaps a
biology graduate student, was prying its mouth open with
his or her index
fingers, causing the animal to grin grotesquely and i looked
at the teeth oh
my god those teeth what teeth and then it was all black and i
woke up. No, i know, the animal was a monkey. A baby monkey i think a
baboon or a
marmoset. Something with a long
snout. Sharp teeth. bloody
gums.
this is the dream
i dreamed last night. been thinking
about it all day, it
haunts me. Not a nightmare really, cause i didn't wake
up shit-scared, but
it haunts me
somehow.
Do you know the
feeling?
---maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:04:59 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Diane M. Homza
wrote:
>
> According to
Roland Barthes, none of us exist, since in order to truly
> interpret
literature the author must be "dead", and so as each of us
> reads
> the others'
messages the original author no longer exists; he/she/it
>must
> give
way--the reader has taken over. The only
good I ever found in
>that
> essay was
that BArthes didn't exist, either, then.
>
> Diane.
>
Sort of parallels
the idea that the reader "finishes" the work, a concept
played out by
Joyce and probably even Kerouac as he approached the idea
of taking words
further.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:24:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: happy poem about adolescence
i remember when
we used to laugh
on the bench in
the Garden
the whole thing
sunny and buzzing.
Disgusting.
I remember crying
as i watched your fingerprints darken on my bruising arm.
The purple handprint developing like a
polaroid through my blurred sight.
Your hand's yellowing shadow stayed gripping
my arm for a week. Your
fingers, your
hand!
I want to ask you
now, what did it for you?
Was it that night
in the cemetery watching tombstones float by?
Was it your
bitch-for-a-mother? Your dad's coke problem?
Was it that
nightmarish prom-night I dragged you to?
I mean, what
crossed the line for you?
(Was it really
worth it to you, you prick?)
'Cause you made a
big black spot
on this the only life
i've got.
(The way I can't
stop thinking about you, one might think i didn't hate you.)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:34:08 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kenneth Patchen tribute
Comments: To:
">"@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
A Patchen tribute
is a wonderful idea. I don't know why
I'm suprised
that Naropa is
the one to think of this.
J Stauffer
Marcus Williamson
wrote:
>
> A tribute to
the life and work of poet and artist Kenneth Patchen (1911-1972)
is
> being held
at the Naropa Institute, Boulder, Colorado, July 9 - July 12 1997.
> For further
information please see :
>
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Patchen/
>
> Thanks &
regards
> Marcus
Williamson
> London, UK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:38:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
Comments: To:
Becca91894@aol.com
In a message
dated 97-07-02 23:16:46 EDT, you write:
<<
hey there--
i'm new to the list and most of the time i
don't know what'd going on. i
read the posts
about automatic writing or "spontaneous prose", but i'm not
familiar with
these terms. i'm intrigued--maybe you
could take some time to
explain the
concept to me?
with advanced appreciation,
becca
>>
automatic writing
is a term invented by the surrealists in the 1910's-20's or
thereabouts. The surrealists were Andre Breton, Max Ernst,
Bunuel, Dali,
etc, mostly living in Paris. Andre Breton is the one who actually invented
the term, i
think. He wrote the Surrealist
Manifesto.
It means just
writing whatever comes into your head.
Channelling the
unconscious
thoughts. the surrealists were very
interested in the
unconscious and
in dreams. (they were fascinated by Freud for example) So in
automatic writing
you don't edit yourself. Just
write. Doesn't have to make
"sense"
to others. It's "automatic"
because you don't think about it, just
do it. (perhaps
Nike's P.R. managers were into Breton?)
I think the beats
were heavily influenced by the surrealists. In fact their
whole generation
was. While i'm making generalizations, i
might as well say
that the whole
20th century is colored by the surrealists, as far as art is
concerned.
Does that answer
you questions at all?
-------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:53:08 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: automatic writing
In-Reply-To:
<970702233634_303434403@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 8:38 PM -0700
7/2/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> automatic
writing is a term invented by the surrealists in the 1910's-20's or
>
thereabouts. The surrealists were Andre
Breton, Max Ernst, Bunuel, Dali,
> etc, mostly living in Paris. Andre Breton is the one who actually invented
> the term, i
think. He wrote the Surrealist
Manifesto.
Don't forget Yves
Tanguey, Lee Miller, Max Ernst, and Man Ray, to name a
few. Personally, I like the "dadaists"
who preceeded them. The
Surrealists, in
general, played a lot of games. One game
involved three or
four people and a
folded sheet of paper. One person would
start with the
head, the next
the body, the legs, feet, etc. But
nobody knew what the
others had
done. Amazing results.
and along the
lines of writing, they would all take turns at a typewriter.
one would start
the story, one would play middle, and perhaps another the
end. just write and write and write. a happy form of accidents, I suppose.
> I think the
beats were heavily influenced by the surrealists. In fact their
> whole
generation was. While i'm making
generalizations, i might as well say
> that the
whole 20th century is colored by the surrealists, as far as art is
> concerned.
I'd be curious to
tie this in with what Diane was saying about Kerouac and
the idea of
"taking words farther." I know
David Bowie and Brian Eno used
a custom deck of
cards to make a lot of their decisions [be contrary, be
harmonious,
etc]. Did the beats, in general, play
games during the process
of putting words
to paper? Again, I'm new to their
literature and don't
know these
things.
>
> Does that
answer you questions at all?
>
-------------maya
raises more. good.
cheers, Douglas <<i.e., the
impact of war upon
literature,
art>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:53:52 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: what's going on?
hey there--
i'm pretty new to
the list, so i think i probably don't have any right to
criticize, but
i'm doing it anyways. my fervent wish is
that everyone takes
this in the best
possible way. now that i've built it up
into something
huge, here's my
question: i've been getting a lot of
duplicate mail. i love
the list, and
duplicate mail wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact
that so much mail
comes from this list without duplications, and i'm missing
other
emails. is anyone else having this
problem? or is there just
something wrong
with my mail?
that's all there
is to the criticism. it wasn't so bad,
now was it?
let me close by
reiterating my fondness for the list-- i think it's great,
i'm learning a
lot and am getting so much out of the conversations, even
though i'm not
actively participating. eventually i
will, when i get over
being shy.
thanks for the
list and thanks in advance to anyone who decides to address
this matter for
me.
in friendship,
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:51:13 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: visions of cody (JK reading televised in
los angels october 1959)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Vision of
Cody" for jack kerouac was his preferred book
'cuz he wasnt'
able to publish it,---Rinaldo.
*
Rarely, rarely
comest
[thou Spirit of
Delight"
---shelley
*
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:52:51 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ) & .
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>From
FireWalk Thru Madness, copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
<|snip|>
David,
are you copirated?
---
yrs
Rinaldo * a
beetle bottled *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:16:49 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re: freshman clearing house
Comments: To:
"Penn; Douglas; K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>In
"Kerouac" <hm> trying to get the spelling right, I noticed that
the
>only vowel
missing from his name is "I".
Kerouac is missing an eye.
>missing his
i. I think I feel we have his i and it
should beat that
>way. chi-i-kerouac
I not I
no I
If you have his original face (from before
he was born, of course)
please return it to the library.
I think JK was being facetious when he
said "praised be man"...I
really do.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:21:56 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
becca,
I've had that
trouble on occasion myself, I believe it has to do with how the
server's
functioning. Not much anyone cna do
abouot that unfortunately.
Welcome, I;m
rather new here and just to, hopefully, allay you shyness,
everyone has made
me feel very comfortable to be here, even though I jumped
right in and have
had opinions differing from some folks.
So dive in, the
waters fine.
<smiles>
Paix,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 1:53 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: what's going on?
hey there--
i'm pretty new to
the list, so i think i probably don't have any right to
criticize, but
i'm doing it anyways. my fervent wish is
that everyone takes
this in the best
possible way. now that i've built it up
into something
huge, here's my
question: i've been getting a lot of
duplicate mail. i love
the list, and
duplicate mail wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact
that so much mail
comes from this list without duplications, and i'm missing
other
emails. is anyone else having this
problem? or is there just
something wrong
with my mail?
that's all there
is to the criticism. it wasn't so bad,
now was it?
let me close by
reiterating my fondness for the list-- i think it's great,
i'm learning a
lot and am getting so much out of the conversations, even
though i'm not
actively participating. eventually i
will, when i get over
being shy.
thanks for the
list and thanks in advance to anyone who decides to address
this matter for
me.
in friendship,
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:39:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: bad dream
lies and
betrayals
Last night i
dreamt she was lying on top of me, kissing me.
I was suffocating, trying to get up but she
was heavy.
I hate you,
Keenan.
There, I've said
it.
If only i had
seen your true nature before.
You wear a mask
of tranquility
but you have
vampiric tendencies
and a suspect
device.
Instead of a
heart.
You don't see us
You don't see us
You don't see us
We strike in the
dark.
In the dark well
of my room, she knows i'm vulnerable,
and she pins me
down.
In an inch of
dirty water, my face pressed to the cold stone ground,
I drown, still
kicking.
We are prisoners
of our own thoughts,
We are prisoners
of our selves.
--maya
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:44:39 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
FIRST_Rebecca
LAST_ Last wrote:
>
> here's my
question: i've been getting a lot of
duplicate mail. i love
> the list,
and duplicate mail wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for
>the fact
> that so much
mail comes from this list without duplications, and i'm
>missing
> other
emails. is anyone else having this
problem? or is there just
> something
wrong with my mail?
> that's all
there is to the criticism. it wasn't so
bad, now was it?
> let me close
by reiterating my fondness for the list-- i think it's
>great,
> i'm learning
a lot and am getting so much out of the conversations,
>even
> though i'm
not actively participating. eventually i
will, when i get
>over
> being shy.
> thanks for
the list and thanks in advance to anyone who decides to
>address
> this matter
for me.
>
> in
friendship,
>
> becca
The problem you
are speaking of, duplicate posts, exists because of the
change in the way
the listserve operates. Unless you
re-direct your post
to Beat-l, it
will automatically go to the person who sent the post you
are responding
to. To avoid that, many people use the
Re:all option on
their software,
which means a copy goes to the beat-l and another copy to
the individual
person whose ideas you responded to.
When you read your
mail, just delete
one of the posts. People who respond by
erasing the
individual's name
and inserting Beat-l are the ones from which you only
receive one
list-directed post. I doubt that you are
missing any mail,
but sometimes
someone responds on the list to something that got by
private e-mail,
and thus you have never seen the quote they are
addressing. Sorry this got so long. Hope you understand.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:46:28 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: automatic writing
Comments: To:
runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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runner711
spaketh:
>Did the
beats, in general, play games during the process of putting words
>to
paper? Again, I'm new to their
literature and don't know these
>things.
Is this what you mean?
Our laird and processor, William S.
Burroughs, invented (co-invented?)
the process of cut-ups. Basically taking text and cutting it into
strips and sliding the strips of paper up
and down, sliding text from
line to line (hence reading between the
lines?, I've always wondered,
and is this where the term cut-up (as in
clown) comes from?) to find
the "true meaning". It's a terrible amount of fun, especially
using
things like the Bible, Koran, and Hardy
Boys/Nancy Drew mysteries
combined (I discovered that the Hardy Boys
wore cute outfits and
danced all night with their father!).
This is my freshman account of cut-ups,
I'm sure others on the list
can give much depth to my 6th grade
education account. Correct me if
I'm wrong but isn't Naked Lunch the first
cut-up novel?
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:10:04 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Nice to meet you, becca
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Good Morning
becca,
Another day
starting on the right post. Nice to meet you. Glad you are
planning to move
into our neighborhood.
Joining us for
Visions of Cody for starters?
You Remind me to say thank you again to Bill
Gargan. He started this
baby. Healthy and
growing.
By the way Bill,
what is its birthday?
Lucky for me no
twins here. First time I hear about doubles. Hmmm,
wonder what's
going on with your software. Doubling this list can eat up
your mail box
fast. Hope you solve the problem quickly.
leon
.-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:15:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. @
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The Kerouac
Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2 is in its final editing stage for its
Summer issue. It
can be purchased by sending $2.95 to:
The Kerouac Quarterly
34 North Rd. #7
Chelmsford, MA.
01824
Issue #1 is still
available from Water Row Books.
Issue #2 will
have a different format than the first and thus, less costs!
More pages!
Thanks! Paul of
TKQ
P.S. We need your
submissions for the next issue which will center around
the release of
Some of the Dharma on September 5th. Any essays on Kerouac
and Buddhism
would be a plus! Thanks again. . .
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:15:27 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: be at #2 haiku
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blurred flies
in his eyes
poor man
incognito like a
multimillionaire
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:28:32 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Rexroth
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"Thou Shalt Not Kill" by Kenneth
Rexroth
You,
The hyena with
polished face and bow tie,
In the office of
a billion dollar
Corporation
devoted to service;
The vulture dripping
with carrion,
Carefully and
carelessly robed in imported tweeds,
Lecturing on the
Age of Abundance;
The jackal in the
double-breasted gabardine,
Barking by remote
control,
In the United
Nations...
The Superego in a
thousand uniforms,
You, the finger
man of the behemoth,
The murderer of
the young men...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:36:01 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Visions of Cody JK speaks
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http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/soundsource.html
The Kerouac
singing sound is an outtake from the Blues and Haikus session.
The
"meaningless goof" sample is a passage from Visions of Cody called
Neal
and the Three
Stooges. Note how in this passage he says "Neal knows his
name" rather
than "Cody knows his name." Kerouac wrote with using real
names and changed
them later before publication. This recording was made
before Visions of
Cody was published.
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:45:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: freshman clearing house
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<<hello
freshman!!>>
Matt writ:
<<
>>In
"Kerouac" <hm> trying to get the spelling right, I noticed that
the
>>only
vowel missing from his name is "I".
Kerouac is missing an eye.
>>missing
his i. I think I feel we have his i and
it should beat that
>>way. chi-i-kerouac
>
> I not I
> no I
>
> If you have his original face (from before
he was born, of course)
> please return it to the library.
>
> I think JK was being facetious when he
said "praised be man"...I
> really do.
>
>>
Well, I don't
know that JK quote or its context.
You'll have school me.
I do know, from my reading of Joyce, that it
is possible to
mathematically
prove that Shakespeare's son was actually Hamet's father
(or something
like that). And according to the
"Ulysses" story, you'll
have to pepper me
with a few pints to get the whole equation out o' me.
Thought of this
'cause you say <<I not I // no I>> which somewhat
reminds me of the
"to be, or not to be" line from Hamlet. Taking this
charade along,
can it be said that when KEROUAC said "praised be man"
<<hmm>>
maybe he was lamenting the fact that Juliet got the "B" in her
bonnet and not
he. All JK had was a good ending in
"C" <<hm>>.
wondering what
Kerouac sounded like. Will have to
listen to more of my
"Kick Joy
Darkness" album, I suppose. Joyce
reads nicely. He doesn't
quote his
characters when they are speaking, so you have to slow down
the reading pace,
and decipher what is being <<thought>> and what is
being
<<said>>.
Matt, you still
there? What are you reading these
days?? OR seen any
good art exhibits
recently?? equally curious.
>> matt
Douglas
<<who has a dog of an unborn face>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:54:00 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
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am now
dangerously careening down the hillside with HST and the angels,
about to break
out into hoodlem circus/rape at bass lake
in the midst of brawls and runs and sleeping in grease
(not that these
subjects don't
hold a some what wacky fascination)
anyway, she said
impatiently to her brain get on with it!. ok , found
interesting
passage that taps into many a beat-l think tank or actual flame
tank wars:
HST: HELLS ANGELS
to whatever
extent the hell's angels may or may not be latent
sado-masochists
or repressed homosexuals is to me --after nearly a year in
the constant
company of outlaw motorcyclists--almost entirely irrelevant.
there are
literary critics who insist that ernest hemingway was a tortured
queer and that
mark twain wass haunted to he end of his days by a penchant
for interracial
buggery. it is good way to stir up in a tempest in the
academic
quarterlies but it wont change a word of what either man wrote,
nor alter the
impact of their work on the world they were writing about.
perhaps manolete
was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered from terrible hemmhoids
as a restly of
long nights in spanish horn parlors..but he was a great
matador and it is
hard to see how any amount of freudian theorizing can
have the slightes
effect on the reality of the thing he did best.
1)sound familiar;
2)name that
thread! (or 4 or 5..)
you will win
absolutely nothing.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:54:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
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Sherri writ:
>> waters
fine. <smiles>
yes,
and if the waters
_beat_ on you,
high above your
head, well,
ride the waves
instead. :-)))))))))))))
>> Paix,
>> Sherri
Douglas
<<everybody beat surfin'... >>
Hi Sherri! Hi Becca!
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:08:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
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Marie rode in and
spit:
><< from
HELLS ANGELS by HST]]
>for
interracial buggery. it is good way to stir up in a tempest in the
>academic
quarterlies but it wont change a word of what either man wrote,
>nor alter the
impact of their work on the world they were writing about.
>perhaps
manolete was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered from terrible hemmhoids
>as a restly
of long nights in spanish horn parlors..but he was a great
>matador and
it is hard to see how any amount of freudian theorizing can
>have the
slightes effect on the reality of the thing he did best.
>>
All I'm gonna say
is that nobody ever told me in college that Warhol was
gay. same for Robert Rauschenberg and a few choice
others. And besides
sexual
preference, I'm sure I could remember a few other "overlooked"
bits. Such facts might not "change a
word" or "alter the impact"; yet
for
interpretation's (and appreciation's) sake, these <<messy>> tidbits
are good to
know. Sure as hell explains the Liz
Taylor and Judy Garland
fetishes. Sure explains RR's relationship to Jasper
Johns. another
depth to plow.
and I'll need to
go back and check my "fucking little boys Ginsberg"
beat-archives. but really, this is important information on
a certain
level. Granted, there are many levels and and and
the author is dead
yada yada. But why not have all the facts and then
discuss what is
relevant?? This is not intended as a flame or anything
like that BTW.
:-)
>> you will
win absolutely nothing.
How about a free
issue of National Conquistador??
>> mc
cheers,
"badass" Douglas <<a
former Honda moped boy>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:30:21 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: jazz and the prairies
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Read this in the
paper today, thought I'd share it with the rest of
you...
Ross Porter, host
of CBC radio's jazz show, After Hours, on how living
on the prairies
is like being a jazz musician:
*Everyone thinks
you're crazy for doing it.
*Just when things
seem like they can't get any worse, they do.
*Everyone keeps
reminding you how things were better 30 years ago.
*You only get
media attention when something bad happens.
*Upside: You're
always one hour ahead of what's happening on the West
coast.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:41:12 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWalk thru Madness -- the endings...
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these three
conclude the thing. =20
>From FireWalk
Thru Madness, copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
Random Songs.
Dylan sings Lily,
Rosemary, and the Jack of Hearts -- it sounds
different than
Joan=92s version when she dad to hope that she could know
the words. =93Two doors down the boys finally made it
through the wall=94
and I think of
Pink Floyd and other walls -- boundaries between us that
seems like walls,
Berlin Walls, Iron Curtains -- between our souls.
Thinking about
the Jack of Hearts makes me think about solitaire by the
River. It was the Iowa River when I started but it
was the River Styx
when Anne found
me to sign the papers.
A Simple Twist of
Fate. =93They sat together in the
Park=94 Lucy and Da=
vid
-- she made him
feel comfortable with open relationships ... =93a little
confused I
remember well=94 I sat under a tree at Washington University
while she danced
inside. His mind danced outside and the
words flowed
from his pen like
they do now on the paper as fast as I can write. In
St. Louis --
Boyhood home of Burroughs -- =93felt an emptiness inside to
which he just
could not relate=94 when the car spun out of control on
Highway 61 and
not a scratch on the car or on me. =93I
was born too late=
=94
he thinks of
Twisting Fate as the harmonica drones.
Lucy=92s in New
Mexico and Clapton sings His confession =93I shot the
sheriff=94 and I
never can figure out who did shoot the deputy -- Unsolve=
d
Mysteries and
America=92s Most Wanted. Self
Defense. =93Capital Offense=
=94.=20
Self
Offense. Capital Defense. =93Kill it before it Grows=94. Capital
Defense. Capital Punishment . =93Hang him,=94 they scream in their whit=
e
sheets and the
black man swings innocently from the tree -- Dead for his
innocence. =93Reflexes got the better of me=94.
My reflexes
fear. Put up walls, boundaries to keep
the bottom from
dropping
out. The bottomless pit when I fall
through the wall I called
the floor of my
soul. No grounding. No gravity.
Topsy-Turvy. Crazy.=20
Inside and
Out. =93Just about to Lose My mind.=94 =93My Momma said I=92=
m
crazy=94. =20
She visited me in
the hospital and brought me my sister=92s guitar and Da=
n
taught me Hank
Williams=92 songs =93I=92m So Lonesome I could Cry=94 on h=
is Red,
White, and Blue
Buck Owens=92 guitar -- living in the hospital in Saint
Joe on Tulsa Time
in Franciscan living in a difference time zone beyond
time ... temporal
dimension ... Interzone ... Naked Lunch ... and all I
wanted was a
Naked Breakfast with Linda my high school sweetheart.
=93Lay Lady
Lay=94 Linda ... Aunt Abby when I was Teddy =93You=92re a Big=
Girl
Now=94 working
for the Supreme Court =93and I=92m just
like that bird si=
nging
just for
you.=94 =93I hope that you can hear me
singing through these
tears.=94 And you=92ve moved to Nashville =93I can make
it through.=94 =
I
scream to myself
make it through the walls of my mind.
=93Love is so
simple.=94 I=92m so simple. Simply Complex. =20
=93What=92s the
sense of changing horses.=94 =93I=92m
going out of my mi=
nd.=94 =93A
corkscrew in my
heart.=94 And I=92m still sitting on the
Red Couch in th=
e
Salvation Army
and it=92s Halloween and I=92m still there dressed as a
mannequin for
Halloween. I stayed home avoiding the
Ritual.
=93If you see her
say Hello.=94 I send this to all in San
Francisco,
Jerusalem,
=93Tangier.=94 =93She might think i=92ve
forgotten her -- don=
=92t tell
her it isn=92t
so.=94 But I want to call, to
connect. =93She still live=
s
inside of
me.=94 Do I live inside of her? I just want to know that I
still live there
too. I never wanted to own her or trap
her. I just
wanted her to be
happy.
=93Now I hear her
name here and there as I go from town to town=94 and
freeze up inside
and I howl inside and at the yellow moon.
=93All went b=
y
so fast.=94 I wish she=92d find me. Should I tell her I=92m moving? =20
I wish someone
could understand why I loved her.
SCARED
November 1992
He looked a
little like DeNiro in Angel Heart. No
red cape. No horns.=20
Luficer in human
form, surrounded by a fog -- a haze. As
I moved closer
the fog lifted
from his face. His eyes were Fire Red
and lasers shot
from them cutting
through the fog. Face to Face with Satan
-- And I
Wasn=92t Scared.
Then he waved his
arm and the fog vanished and the cavern was lit by
fire and in the
throne beside him I saw Anne. Chained to
the throne.=20
Cold, hard
manacles connecting her wrists to the chair=92s arms. Another
manacle around
her neck with chains tied to the rungs of the chair
back. =20
And I looked at
her face. Her eyes were blood and the
smile a devious
demented smile,
an insane smile likes the sounds of laughter that came
from deep inside
her that night at the farmhouse. The
voices that were
not hers,
laughing at me -- Screaming that they had won -- that I was
broken. The laughter I felt pierce through me before
I dove into the
pit in my mind
after her. Trying to protect her. Save her.
The woman
I loved. And I Wasn=92t Scared.
I turned to him
As I felt the Rage inside me boiling, the Rage of one
who takes anger
inside, keeps it there, learns from it, draws on it -
like a power
source. And my eyes shot lasers back at
him. White
lasers. White light.
Cleansing. Love. Energy. =20
And I started to
speak and it was my words but it was like I was
watching
myself. Surprised that these feelings
were coming out.=20
Surprised at my
own power. My own energy. And I told him that I was
connected to all
the Devil=92s Advocates on earth and they cared about me
more than him.
=20
And then I
laughed in his DeNiro-like face and just said: =93You Lose!=94
The manacles
burst open on Anne=92s throne and the expressions on her fac=
e
changed and I saw
the woman I loved. The woman I
married. And I Wasn=92=
t
Scared.
Then she vanished
and he turned back at me and the cavern turned inside
out, upside
down. And I heard his laughter, Her
laughter from the
farmhouse and I
tried to run away but the paths all ended before they
started. Dead-ends.
Trapped. And Anne was free, But I
wasn=92t. And I
Was Scared.
FRENCH FATIGUE
FANTASY
Je Suis Fatigue
The only ine of
French I know
So that if I ever
visit France
I can be tired
And tell someone.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:43:37 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: >> respect and be watchful.
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> Patricia
writ:
>
>
><<the thing with brian was the best for me too. I saw the show at the
> >spenser
library here in lawrence, I like his
work on ply wood and glass
> >the best
next to the collaboration. Gyson was one
of his most favorite
> >people
and most important artistic influence. I
love one of his peices
> >which
was a red door.
> i am very
familiar with his art.>>
>
> I spent a
summer in Lawrence. Both my cousins went
there for school and
> I just hung
out one summer. Very cool town.
>
> I also liked
that 'light machine' (what was it called?) that twirled
> around and
one was supposed to sit and be hypnotized by it. Then the
> Robert
Rauschenberg piece was good to see. As
was the Basquait piece
> (the movie
had just come out). Still haven't heard
the Kurt
>
Cobain/Burroughs CD. Wish and Wish the
short films would make it TV or
> video (would
love to be able to rent them, easily).
For the longest
> time after
that exhibit, I went around trying out my "Burroughs" voice
> on all my
friends and relative. <<very
fun>>
>
> Of Burroughs
work, I've read about half of Naked Lunch, most of his
> recent dream
book (love his "land of the dead" stories, not being able
> to find a
good breakfast, etc), and some of the interviews in the Bunker
> book. There must be more of a connotation to the
"red door" than I am
> picking up
from these scattered literary fragments.
>
> Anytime you
wanna talk art, I'm here!!
>
> >> p
>
> >cheers,
Douglas
>
> PS: just about to sign off, when I remembered,
looking up, that I have
> had a
photograph of Burroughs on my office wall for about 2 years now.
> It's a xerox
out of a Vanity Fair article (photo by Annie Leibovitz). A
> prison sort
of photo. artistic criminal. Was good to see the detail
> and shadow
play in the originals. People always ask
me who that "old
> man"
is. I tell them he's my grandfather, of
sorts. Don't think they
> >really
believe me.
patricia writes
I absolutly love
doing his voice, the low timbre sugared with sacasim,
"well my
dear, don't call the police unless you have some idea of what
they are most
likely to do and if you want them to do that.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:07:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: >> respect and be watchful.
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><<patricia
writes
>I absolutly
love doing his voice, the low timbre sugared with sacasim,
>"well my
dear, don't call the police unless you have some idea of what
they are most
likely to do and if you want them to do that.>>
I wasn't aware
you were going to post this to the list, p!
No matter.
Don't know the
quote you cite, but I can hear it.
<<Wonderful>> My
favorite piece to
take-off from was his legendary "thanksgiving prayer"
reading. I've forgotten how it goes, but something
like "four score and
seven years ago,
......., I'd like to thank the indians [pause] for
getting
slaughtered [slight sarcastic pause] by drunken englishmennnn
[that low timbre
you mentioned]..." and then fast into his next line.
<<Wonderful>> It's what makes his Dream book so enjoyable
too. Can
just see
hunchback burroughs trying to find a good breakfast in the LOD:
~~~ "I'd
like to thank the cook [pause]
for deserting me [slight pause]
in my deepest hour of
need..." <<laughing convulsively>>
It was
interesting to read in the Bunker book how upon arriving in New
York, he began
doing readings and was a smash hit. This
apparently shy
man found his
audience and increased his appeal. The
power of the
voice. Loved and saddened by the way Brion dressed
him up then too.
What a
freak! <<my hero>>
>back to
Joyce, Dogulas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:20:39 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: No Nazi On The Net was (Re: FW:
please read this and vote)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Becca,
Excuse me, but ...I think you're
confused...In no way whatsover have I
participated in
the Nazi thread discussion...have deleted all those with
an itchy trigger
finger as the matter of fact...please aim your line of
fire somewhere
else.
Barb
Becca91894@aol.com
wrote:
>
> barbara--
>
> I read your
post on the beat list. although i am new
to the list and not
> necessarily
a great thinker, i thought maybe i would throw my ideas at you,
> since you
seemed interested.
> about
censorship: this may be waffling, i'll
just warn you about that now.
> it seems to me that censorship in general is
wrong. and like doug (i think)
> said, we
have to allow viewpoints we disagree with to be heard, or we
> endanger our
own freedoms of speech. however, when we
are discussing nazis,
> i'm inclined
to believe that censorship may have it's place.
nazi's are a
> dangerous
group, they regularly kill and destroy people's lives because they
> are
different. i wouldn't say that a nazi
party shouldn't be allowed to form
> (well, maybe
i would, i haven't really thought about it), but allowing a nazi
> web-site
where like-minded individuals can band together from all over is
> extremely
risky. i think we all can agree that
heinous atrocities were
> commited
under nazi leadership, and it seems irresponsible to me that we
> would help
these people come together and create a stronger bond than already
> exists. after all, one reason hitler came to power
was because the rest of
> the world
thought they should mind their own business and let germany do its
> thing. i think many things would be done
differently, in retrospect, but
> since there
is nothing we can do about what's already happened, we should
> learn from
our past mistakes and do everything possible to ensure that
> nothing like
the holocaust will ever happen again.
>
> i hope i
haven't been too forward in responding to your post.
>
> becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:24:03 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: >> respect and be watchful.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
>
><<patricia writes
> >I
absolutly love doing his voice, the low timbre sugared with sacasim,
>
>"well my dear, don't call the police unless you have some idea of what
> they are
most likely to do and if you want them to do that.>>
>
> I wasn't
aware you were going to post this to the list, p! No matter.
> Don't know
the quote you cite, but I can hear it.
<<Wonderful>> My
> favorite
piece to take-off from was his legendary "thanksgiving prayer"
>
reading. I've forgotten how it goes, but
something like "four score and
> seven years
ago, ......., I'd like to thank the indians [pause] for
> getting
slaughtered [slight sarcastic pause] by drunken englishmennnn
> [that low
timbre you mentioned]..." and then fast into his next line.
>
<<Wonderful>> It's what
makes his Dream book so enjoyable too.
Can
> just see
hunchback burroughs trying to find a good breakfast in the LOD:
>
> ~~~
"I'd like to thank the cook [pause]
> for deserting me [slight pause]
> in my deepest hour of
need..." <<laughing
convulsively>>
>
> It was
interesting to read in the Bunker book how upon arriving in New
> York, he
began doing readings and was a smash hit.
This apparently shy
> man found
his audience and increased his appeal.
The power of the
> voice. Loved and saddened by the way Brion dressed
him up then too.
> What a
freak! <<my hero>>
>
> >back to
Joyce, Dogulas
patricia writes
i forgot, i try
to repost most of the stuff to to beat-l and should of
checked with
you, sorry. I wish there was more
discussion of the beat
related arts, gyson
being a good one to start with, i really love the
work of his that
i have seen. but don't know much about the man except
he is gone. The
"don't call the police" is a parapharase, i am terrible
about being
exact.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:57:25 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: MAIL PROBLEMS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Hello folks,
I've noticed a
lot of posts having mail difficulties-either getting
or recieving
posts-me too. Ironically, my net provider sent this post
out earlier in
the day; I'm not sure if any of this info is helpful
or not so here
goes:
Subject: Update
Date: Thu, 3 Jul
1997 08:57:40-0500 (CDT)
From:
gods@bitstream.net
To: Stand666
Hello,
There are still a
few people who are not getting our
daily messages.
This is a holdover from our mail server
switchover and
should not be the case very soon.
We are still
having some trouble with USWEST concerning
connection
quality issues from some locations. The modem
pool and mail
server are working great--the people
having problems
are mainly but not exclusivly in the 822
exchange. USWEST
claims they are fixing it, but we should
all keep
harassing them until it is so. Please see the
bsu.announce
newsgroup for more info.
We will be closed
tomorrow July 4th, and Saturday July 5th.
Thanks for your
support.
Michael
Bitsteam
Underground, Inc.
http://www.bitstream.net gods@bitstream.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:19:04 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
Comments: To:
Marioka7@aol.com
i'll go for voc
as well. i haven't read it but have
meant to-- maybe this
will kick my butt
into gear and i'll get it finished.
here's hoping
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:20:59 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
Comments: To:
dkpenn@oees.com
hi douglas! now i really feel like part of the
list--somebody wrote my name
for all to
see.... <sniff> i'm so touched!!
heeheeheehee
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:39:11 -0400
Reply-To: Becca91894@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
<Becca91894@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
Comments: To:
love_singing@msn.com
sherri--
thanks so
much. everybody has been friendly and
encouraging so far, so i'm
starting to feel
more comfortable, if maybe a little intimidated by the
knowledge
circulating around here. :) that'll just
give me more reason to
expand my beat
library, right? thanks for the
welcome. i'm sure you will
hear more from me
as time goes on.
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:42:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
ok gotta get out
and buy voc... haven't read it yet either... that'll make 16
bboks i got goin
now.... help i'm drowning in a sea of
words!!!
gasping,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 6:19 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the beat (en) horse/summer reading
update
i'll go for voc
as well. i haven't read it but have
meant to-- maybe this
will kick my butt
into gear and i'll get it finished.
here's hoping
becca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:32:19 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: what's going on?
In-Reply-To:
<970703212057_136756683@emout02.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 6:20 PM -0700
7/3/97, FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last wrote:
> heeheeheehee
the trick, I'm
told, is to figure out how this relates to some sort of beat
technology. any quote unquote beat work. this will keep the snails happy
and us permission
to roam somewhat free. I guess. not a creative writing
class but an
empassioned discourse. <ahem, an
brief example>::
trigger trigger
I think he got me
in the liver
pork chop ad hoch
burroughs ate his
dinner
he shot a door
bled it read
spoke about a
river
arabesques in bed
little boys
with marks upon
their face
hanging
faciciously
their anus' a
shout
for propriety
Start the chase!!
run becca, run!
the beats will
get you!!
run to the
bookstore becca
run run...
<<ah, fuck this!>>
<<ahhhhhhh!!!,
[[eaten by a snail]]
well....,
I tried...>> :-)
> becca
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:57:32 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re:
summer reading update: HST on an old thread
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> am now
dangerously careening down the hillside with HST and the angels,
> about to
break out into hoodlem circus/rape at bass lake
> in the midst
of brawls and runs and sleeping in grease (not that these
> subjects
don't hold a some what wacky fascination)
> anyway, she
said impatiently to her brain get on with it!. ok , found
> interesting
passage that taps into many a beat-l think tank or actual
> flame tank
wars:
> HST: HELLS
ANGELS
> to whatever
extent the hell's angels may or may not be latent
>
sado-masochists or repressed homosexuals is to me --after nearly a year
>in the
constant company of outlaw motorcyclists--almost entirely
>irrelevant.
there are literary critics who insist that ernest hemingway
>was a
tortured queer and that mark twain wass haunted to he end of his
>days by a
penchant for interracial buggery. it is good way to stir up in
>a tempest in
the academic quarterlies but it wont change a word of what
>either man
wrote, nor alter the impact of their work on the world they
>were writing
about. perhaps manolete was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered
>from terrible
hemmhoids as a restly of long nights in spanish horn
>parlors..but
he was a great matador and it is hard to see how any amount
>of freudian
theorizing can have the slightes effect on the reality of
>the thing he
did best.
> 1)sound
familiar;
> 2)name that
thread! (or 4 or 5..)
> you will win
absolutely nothing.
> mc
Ah, shit, I
wanted to win something. But, does it have an impact on the
reality of what
we do best? Some of us careen wildy down
the hill with
the hell's
angels. Some of us read about it. Some of us write about it.
Some of us
theorize about it. I live therefore I
am. I write therefore
I am. I think therefore I am. Some of us create life out of fiction and
fiction out of
life. Some of us want to write the
biography or perhaps,
obituary, of the
first guy that tells a hell's angel he's a repressed
homosexual.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:38:10 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST on an old
thread
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie--
I have to send
you my "Freewheeling Frank". I
had forgotten that HST
also covers a
Bass Lake rally as does Frank. You will
love the
parallels.
I'll reread my
HST's book which I have pretty much forgotten and let you
borrow
Franks. Nice "inside--outside"
comparison.
James Stauffer
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> am now
dangerously careening down the hillside with HST and the angels,
> about to
break out into hoodlem circus/rape at bass lake
> in the
midst of brawls and runs and sleeping in
grease (not that these
> subjects
don't hold a some what wacky fascination)
> anyway, she
said impatiently to her brain get on with it!. ok , found
> interesting
passage that taps into many a beat-l think tank or actual flame
> tank wars:
> HST: HELLS
ANGELS
> to whatever
extent the hell's angels may or may not be latent
>
sado-masochists or repressed homosexuals is to me --after nearly a year in
> the constant
company of outlaw motorcyclists--almost entirely irrelevant.
> there are
literary critics who insist that ernest hemingway was a tortured
> queer and
that mark twain wass haunted to he end of his days by a penchant
> for
interracial buggery. it is good way to stir up in a tempest in the
> academic
quarterlies but it wont change a word of what either man wrote,
> nor alter
the impact of their work on the world they were writing about.
> perhaps
manolete was a hoof fetiishist, or suffered from terrible hemmhoids
> as a restly
of long nights in spanish horn parlors..but he was a great
> matador and
it is hard to see how any amount of freudian theorizing can
> have the
slightes effect on the reality of the thing he did best.
> 1)sound
familiar;
> 2)name that
thread! (or 4 or 5..)
> you will win
absolutely nothing.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:59:32 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Visions of Cody--Notes and Queries
MIME-Version: 1.0
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OK, like a good boy I have started my Visions of
Cody assignment
(though I think I
have to throw in HST's Angel book with the other
things I am
simultaneously reading.)
Getting myself
into the rythm of VOC--enjoying Jacks high cholesterol
dinner
reminsicences. Struck by his mention of
Al Collins on the radio
as Jack and
"Tom" are driving around. (p. 13 or my McGraw Hill
paperback).
Al "Jazbo" Collins is still doing
his "Purple Grotto" bit,currently
heard in the SF
area on KCSM-FM in San Mateo. Don't know
if it is
syndicated or
strictly local. Friday or Saturday night if memory
serves. I remember hearing Jazbo on alternative FM in
LA during the
60's in the Phil
Donohue, B. Mitchell Reed era. Seemed a flash from
the past at the
time but hadn't realized he went back to the late
forties.
Have a good
Independence Day everyone and take a toke for those of us
who will be
working anyway.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:05:07 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: the complete beat (experiment)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm still not
sure how to phrase. this I'm not
sure. the exact meaning.
How to beat? got to thinking about the term "beat
technology"
sitting on my
toilet, amusing myself. flipping thru my
"20th Century
Photography --
Museum Ludwig Cologne" book. had
another image first, then
sitting down to
scan the image, came upon another [see link to .gif below].
see page 610,
Eberhard Schrammen.
Following the
following like to see his "Untitled (self-portrait)" (1930).
gelatin silver
print, stencil photogram 23.8 x 17.9 cm
<<hm, how
is this beat??>>
<<hm??>>
Here's what the
text says:
> Schrammen remained active as an
artist, painter,
. graphic artist, and writer. There is little evidence
. of his written work
So give me
evidence of the complete beat! Well,
<<ahem>>, an example of
beat
technology: snails, gods, beets,
carrots, beetles, chickenheads, and
original crispies
((all invited to snap crackle and pop))
Beat as it
survives
today. still don't know what that
means <<damn>>. and am still
not sure how to
even phrase the question <<double damn>>. God help me
<<yes?>>.
Any
suggestions?? <<and p. no gunshots
thru doors will be accepted!>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Schrammen.gif
Douglas <<fireworks, homemade ice cream, good
friends = weekend>>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:00:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Germs
came into life
like a puzzled
panther
waiting to be
caged
but something
stood in the way
i was
never...quite...
tamed
--------------the
Germs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:03:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: correction
came into this
world
like a puzzled
panther
waiting to be
caged
but something
stood in the way
I was never
quite...
tamed...
-------the Germs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:34:49 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: correction
In-Reply-To:
<970704020359_-2113582237@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 11:03 PM -0700
7/3/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> came into
this world
> like a
puzzled panther
> waiting to
be caged
> but something
stood in the way
> I was never
> quite...
> tamed...
> -------the
Germs
yep. you must be a "badass" too!? something just doesn't fit
outside in
ah you were
looking scuttled
outside in
We already know you're ugly!
but do you know
I'm joking, I'm joking!!]]
yours, Douglas
<<
running
running
burning
bright
>>
from Jack Kerouac
"angel mine"
Angel mine be you fine
Angel divine
Angel milk what's your ilk
Angel bilk
Angel cash Angel Smash
Angel hash
from Pomes All
Sizes
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:19:40 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Scattered Poems
from Lucien
Midnight JK 1957
Dying is ecstasy,
I'm not a teacher, not a
Sage, not a
Roshi, not a
writer or master
or even
a giggling dharma
bum I'm
my mother's son
& my mother
is the universe
--
What is the universe
but alot of waves [was jack reading
And a craving desire about physics?]
is a wave
Belonging to a wave
in a world of waves
So why put any down
wave?
Come on wave, WAVE!
The
heehaw's dobbin
spring hoho
Is a sad lonely yurk
for your love
Wave lover
And what is God?
The unspeakable,
the untellable...
...No, -- what is
God?
The impossible,
the impeachable
Unimpeachable
Prezi-dent
of the Pepsodent
Universe
But with no body
& no brain
no business and
no tie
no candle and no
high
no wise and no
smart guy
no nothing, no
no-nothing,
no anything,
no-word, yes-word,
everything, anything, God,
the guy that ain't a guy,
the thing that can't be
and can
and is
and isn't...
How I wish I
could have put it so eloquently....
Bon niut mes
amies,
Sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:08:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK/ HST
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970703210846Z-134@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
douglas:
in addition to
sexual preference:
there have been
long discussions of what i call
the jack and the bottle - and all speculation
related to that. monday
morning
quarterbacking in a way, years later.
my take on this
(and you can insert any other behavior to it)
he drank.
and he wrote.
i dont think he
wrote because he drank;
i dont think he
drank because he wrote;
i think he wrote
because he HAD to, was writing for years as child and
never stopped.
he may have
started drinking to ease self in social situations (akward and
shy) or to
medicate away the pain of his sensitivity and depressions.
but imho,
all speculation
about what he coulda been if he didnt drink is all moot to me.
('i couldda be a contendor! (brando on the
waterfront) and all that.
speaking of
HST/motorcycles/bad boys/legends and real life:
watching the
wild bunch while
i strip down my bicycle, wearing my 'colors' on this day.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:08:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
In-Reply-To: <33BBF61C.52DE@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
it seems that the
votes are for Cody. as i am hip deep in gonzo land, but
wanting to be
part of the discussion,
i plan for the
VOC thread to compare some passages from romantic JK re:
cassady's chilhood
with passages from FIRST THIRD by cassady. should be
fun, at least
will maybe stir up some interest in more folks to read of
neal's childhood
from neal himself. living on the denver equivalent of skid
row with drunken
father, traumatic childhood to say the least.
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.) it's really all theory and what you want to read
into things, but
instructive and interesting never the less. and oh,
by the way, this reading is being played out
with HST parallel process:
between the much
more journalistic hells angels in
comparison to the wild
novel/gonzo
journalism of F&L in LV. i am pretty sure that the letters will
bear me out on
this, just got to get to them.
off to join the
wild bunch today.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:08:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: the complete beat (experiment)
In-Reply-To:
<l03020900afe22fcbee3c@[208.193.147.131]>
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in that category
i think one must see bob kaufman as the compleat beat as well:
he threw himself
on car hoods, declaimng poems and poetic manifesto . he
wrote his pomes
with no plan for publishing them. many still exist solely
because friends
would follow him, picking up pomes written on cocktail
napkins and the
like...he was busted many times, (reminscent of lenny
bruce) and
targeted by 'authorities' -socrates also comes to mind: gadfly
of the beats to
the absolute end..
he spent
countless days and nights in prison for his total devotion to
anarchy and true
poetry. small quote from AG from intro to cranial guitair:
'he wasn't just
political, he was metaphysical, psychological, surreealist,
and enlightened
in extending his care into the whold society of poetry,
seeing that as
the revolution..."
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:51:00 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: independence day
For three days
the neighborhood has been sounding with bombs and whistles,
sirens of fire
trucks, machine-gun retorting firecracker strings, all day,
all night, like a
war, no cease-fire, like Beirut. Every two minutes a big
jet soars away
from SeaTac, carrying people on holidays like torpedoes
launching from
submarines, on target.
And evening comes
on the third of July and the town is shutting down. You can
hear it. You can
feel it. Everyone is gone somewhere. In ice chests
watermelons chill
alongside beer and the sun stays up in the sky to stare
into people's
windows, causing a breeze to run around it like a puppy looking
for a tussle,
tossing up bamboo shades, weak ramparts against the unrelenting
horizontal rays
of this star made of fire.
No cars on the
streets... people walk right down the middle of the avenues,
some drinking
from brown paper bags, others sweating in uniforms dying to get
home to have one
day off, one lousy extra day off, for any reason at all.
Previously
unheard bird calls issue forth from bushes, these birds now
willing to speak
because they don't have to compete with cell phones and car
horns and
beepers. Little children's voices are the only sounds of human
life, except the
echoing of a basketball hard and hollow hitting the concrete
driveway over and
over and over and over goddamit shoot goddamit... god.
Small planes,
float planes, planes dragging signs through the thick blue air,
revving like
lawnmower looking for clouds to trim, fly east to west, west to
east, at right
angles to the jets where passengers hear, "This is the captain
speaking... if
you'll look out the window to your left, you'll see Puget
Sound and the
Olympic Mountains. And not to be outdone, to the right you'll
see the Cascades
and Bill Gates' fortress on the shores of Medina, right here
in the Emerald
City..."
It feels like I'm
the only one left in town, although I know that isn't true,
but it's
something I've always dreamed about, so it's okay with me. I'm
amazed at the
quiet. I don't know when was the last time this town was so
still. I'm
thinking about Central Washington, 100 degrees as usual, and this
little breeze...
over there this breeze can whip a firecracker in the grass
into a wildfire
before you can even get the garden hose turned on. I'm so
glad to be here,
not in that place which is truly next door to hell, where
the smell of
sulfur dominates chicken barbecuing on the grill and the heat
makes you sit in
the kiddies' pool without shame, where borate bombers drop
their puny cargo
with the efficacy of a wad shot into a condom, then drone on
back to base camp
for another load of blood-red dust and lots of summer
overtime pay for
the pilot.
5 a.m. on the 4th
of July and I wake up to those birds; I hadn't even noticed
when they stopped
singing. Now the sun breaks red over the ridge in the east,
still staring
through jet streams but cool and bright, a joker setting this
town up for this
day of uncertain weather. In a few minutes the jets will
start up again,
firecrackers will accompany breakfast, flags will be
unfurled, maybe
it'll start raining. Will I ponder the nature of freedom or
eat potato salad?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:05:58 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
while jack may
have been romaticizing, let us never forget that human memory
is incredibly
subjective and that much is played through the filter of who we
are ane what we
have done/become over time. i think
neal's version would be
(haven't had a
chance to read it yet) even more interesting for the insight
into hwo he views
himself, in addition to who he really is.
thanks for
reminding me that i need to "First Third".
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 5:08 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
it seems that the
votes are for Cody. as i am hip deep in gonzo land, but
wanting to be
part of the discussion,
i plan for the
VOC thread to compare some passages from romantic JK re:
cassady's
chilhood with passages from FIRST THIRD by cassady. should be
fun, at least
will maybe stir up some interest in more folks to read of
neal's childhood
from neal himself. living on the denver equivalent of skid
row with drunken
father, traumatic childhood to say the least.
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.) it's really all theory and what you want to read
into things, but
instructive and interesting never the less. and oh,
by the way, this reading is being played out
with HST parallel process:
between the much
more journalistic hells angels in
comparison to the wild
novel/gonzo
journalism of F&L in LV. i am pretty sure that the letters will
bear me out on
this, just got to get to them.
off to join the
wild bunch today.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:01:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707041511150680@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>while jack
may have been romaticizing, let us never forget that human memory
>is incredibly
subjective and that much is played through the filter of who we
>are ane what
we have done/become over time. i think
neal's version would be
>(haven't had
a chance to read it yet) even more interesting for the insight
>into hwo he
views himself, in addition to who he really is.
__________
i didnt forget:
and i quote
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.)
the reality is
not first third, but of neal's memories which make up the
first third.
reality vs
romancizing *or* human memory.
i constantly
question reality as much as i question my perceptions/memories
from the reality.
and then i get
hung up wondrin'
what is reality?
probably no more than a perception of an event action or
being on the part
of the beholder.
so in doing this
comparison there are always 3 particpants: the memorybabe
romantic jack;
the life as a work of art itself neal; and the reader.
(my last career
and what i face daily these days have everything to do with
memory from
academic experiments to psychotherapy.)
,mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:14:20 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: JK/ HST
In-Reply-To: <l0302090aafe25516ddb3@[206.25.67.110]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 5:08 AM -0700
7/4/97, Marie Countryman wrote:
> but imho,
> all
speculation about what he coulda been if he didnt drink is all moot
>to me.
> ('i couldda be a contendor! (brando on the
waterfront) and all that.
> speaking of
HST/motorcycles/bad boys/legends and real life:
watching the
> wild bunch
while i strip down my bicycle, wearing my 'colors' on this day.
Today is my blood
father's birthday. such a 50 generations
man. love of
family, love of
wild hares and practical jokes, and in the past -- the
drink. Mum seperated from him at my early age (2),
and we've just gotten
back in contact
with each other, so I have yet to ask him, "hey paw, could
you have been a
conquistador??"
and as one who
has dabbled in a better life through chemicals, I would hope
that what you
suppose about needing to write is true.
yes, writing is
true. but there is no denying the color and
half-back tone of the drink
(or what not)
there as well.
[[there can be no
denial of the truth]] -- a yoko ono marathon, a yoko ono
marathon, a yoko
ono marathon, a yoko ono marathon, a yoko ono marathon
[[the sound in me
head this morning quoting my friend diana and her siren
songs]]
sometimes I think
my whole family is medicated. all of us
running from the
bulls. does Michael Jordan just drink Gatorade? ah questions about da
drink. if the man intends on remaining an island,
often times the only
recourse is to
drink himself to land?? an isthmus of
peace and
tranquility?? If anything, I must say that da drink only
irritates the
mind, and very
occassionally the reader. With that
said, and my own
patience
exploded, it's time for my coffee (or perhaps orange juice) today.
happy 4th!, >
mc
cheers,
Douglas <<preparing my run to Lala
country>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:14:15 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Visions of Cody--Notes and Queries
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> OK, like a good boy I have started my Visions of
Cody assignment
> (though I
think I have to throw in HST's Angel book with the other
> things I am
simultaneously reading.)
>
> Getting
myself into the rythm of VOC--enjoying Jacks high cholesterol
> dinner
reminsicences. Struck by his mention of
Al Collins on the radio
> as Jack and
"Tom" are driving around. (p. 13 or my McGraw Hill
> paperback).
>
> Al "Jazbo" Collins is still doing
his "Purple Grotto" bit,currently
> heard in the
SF area on KCSM-FM in San Mateo. Don't
know if it is
> syndicated
or strictly local. Friday or Saturday night if memory
> serves. I remember hearing Jazbo on alternative FM in
LA during the
> 60's in the
Phil Donohue, B. Mitchell Reed era. Seemed a flash from
> the past at
the time but hadn't realized he went back to the late
> forties.
>
> Have a good
Independence Day everyone and take a toke for those of us
> who will be
working anyway.
>
> J. Stauffer
Will add my notes
& queries on the first twenty or so pages to yours.
Things that
particularly struck me (page #'s seem to correspond to
your's.
pg. 8--"and
thinking 'Good thing I have my Proust--in case I should ever
follow him all
the way which is apparantly Paradise Alley over on the
river they'd see
not only how beat my copy is but that I seriously carry
it around because
I'm really reading it, really bemused in the streets
with it like
they'd be'--really a scholar, hip mystic..."
My copies of
Proust, sit, unread, something I was always going to do,
never did, can
anyone expound in a paragraph or so on Proust's style of
writing. Also have rememberances here of Ginsberg, if
I remember it
correctly,
"who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise
Alley, death, or
purgatoried their torsos night after night..."
pg. 10
"When I see
a leaf fall, I always say goodbye--And that has a sound which
is lost unless
there is country stillness at which time I'm sure it
really rattles
the earth, like ants in orchestras..."
pg 16-18--where
he talks about the immensity of reflection in window,
people and daily
goings on reflected, cars reflected, seeing parts of
things that are
there--distorted by wall of glass--("I know now that
paranoia is the
vision of what's happening and psychosis is the
hallucinated vision
of what's happening, that paranoia is reality, that
paranoia is the
content of things, that paranoia's never satisfied.")
pg. 25--George
Handy's "The Blues,"--"--'though there's joy in our souls
(bop interlude)
we are nothing but shits and we'll all die and eat shit
in our graves and
are dying now..' Pretty powerful talk!"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:23:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Germs
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 02:00 AM
7/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>came into
life
Isn't it: I came
into this world?
>like a
puzzled panther
>waiting to be
caged
>but something
stood in the way
>i was
never...quite...
>tamed
>--------------the
Germs
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:24:44 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: correction
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 02:03 AM
7/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>came into
this world
Oh,
I read the first
one first, and replied before your correction.
Anyhow,
if you're even
talking about darby you'd better hide your beer.
>like a
puzzled panther
>waiting to be
caged
>but something
stood in the way
>I was never
>quite...
>tamed...
>-------the
Germs
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:36:20 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: FW: Visions of Cody JK speaks
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970703211233Z-136@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Rinaldo writ;
>
>http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/soundsource.html
> >
> >The
Kerouac singing sound is an outtake from the Blues and Haikus session.
thanx for posting
this. especially enjoyed hearing:
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/RRE2.au
I imagined his
voice different. and that cool jazz in
the background
scrunches against
my perceived memory. it's such an even
voice, almost
without
inflection. Am gonna have to hear
more. <<Rhino!!>>
cheers, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:39:40 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> I didnt
forget: and i quote
> i think it
> gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the
>reality
> (or, at
best, the memories of neal
> vs JK's
romanticizing.)
> the reality
is not first third, but of neal's memories which make up
>the
> first third.
> reality vs
romancizing *or* human memory.
> i constantly
question reality as much as i question my
>perceptions/memories
> from the
reality.
> and then i
get hung up wondrin'
> what is
reality? probably no more than a perception of an event action
>or
> being on the
part of the beholder.
> so in doing
this comparison there are always 3 particpants: the
>memorybabe
> romantic
jack; the life as a work of art itself neal; and the reader.
> (my last
career and what i face daily these days have everything to do with
> memory from
academic experiments to psychotherapy.)
> ,mc
Your perceptions
of this seem pretty 'right on to me.'
Reality can be no
more than "a
perception of an event or action on the part of the
beholder." We often tried to grasp hold of something and
say, "see, here
is reality, look
at it. But it doesn't work. There are always several
realities at
play, one for each participant. Jack's romantic reality,
Neil's reality
tempered by experience, and the reality of the reader.
And in discussing
VOC, we all bring together each of our different
realities as
readers. Intriguing, isn't it?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:14:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
In-Reply-To: <33BCA8BC.26B0@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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DC, kudos to you
for succintly putting my gropings into sharp and clear words:
"There are
always several
realities at
play, one for each participant. Jack's romantic reality,
Neil's reality
tempered by experience, and the reality of the reader."
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:12:06 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Bruce Cockburn
from Bruce's 1984
album "Stealing Fire"
Maybe the Poet
maybe the poet is
gay
but he'll be
heard anyway
maybe the poet is
drugged
but he won't stay
under the rug
maybe the voice
of the spirit
in which case
you'd better here it
maybe he's a woman
who can touch you
where you're human
male female slave
or free
peaceful or
disorderly
maybe you and he
will not agree
but you need him
to show you new ways to see
don't let the
system fool you
all it wants to
do is rule you
pay attention to
the poet
you need him and
you know it
put him up
against the wall
shoot him up with
pentothal
shoot him up with
lead
you won't call
back what's been said
put him in the ground
but one day
you'll look around
there'll be a
face you don't know
voicing thoughts
you've heard before
male female slave
or free
peaceful or
disorderly
maybe you and he
will not agree
but you need him
to show you new ways to see
don't let the
system fool you
all it wants to
do is rule you
pay attention to
the poet
you need him and
you know it
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:04:14 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: More Bruce
from the same
album, one of my faves...
Sahara Gold
dance music from
the corner bar
over dogs barking
at a passing car
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
hot night streets are full of life
carnival faces in
rembrandt light
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
half moon shining
though the blind
paints a vision
of a different kind
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
wet limbs striped
with silver light
locked together
at the center of the night
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
night bloom
fillin up the room
with the salt and
musk of lovers' rich perfume
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
animal grins and
wild shining eyes -
laughing and
shouting we're a hundred storeys high
and your hair
tumbles down like sahara gold
just happen to
like this song/poem... maybe someday
i'll get brave enough to
post some of my
own pitiful poetry...
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:26:23 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
yeah, i think
reality is only the moment, nothing more, nothing less, it's all
here and now, no
past no future, all one... who know's
what's really
happened, or if
anything's happened...? i get caught in
this cycle all the
time.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 9:01 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: summer reading update: HST and JK
>while jack
may have been romaticizing, let us never forget that human memory
>is incredibly
subjective and that much is played through the filter of who we
>are ane what
we have done/become over time. i think
neal's version would be
>(haven't had
a chance to read it yet) even more interesting for the insight
>into hwo he
views himself, in addition to who he really is.
__________
i didnt forget:
and i quote
i think it
gives good
insight into how much can be changed in a novel from the reality
(or, at best, the
memories of neal
vs JK's
romanticizing.)
the reality is
not first third, but of neal's memories which make up the
first third.
reality vs
romancizing *or* human memory.
i constantly
question reality as much as i question my perceptions/memories
from the reality.
and then i get
hung up wondrin'
what is reality?
probably no more than a perception of an event action or
being on the part
of the beholder.
so in doing this
comparison there are always 3 particpants: the memorybabe
romantic jack;
the life as a work of art itself neal; and the reader.
(my last career
and what i face daily these days have everything to do with
memory from
academic experiments to psychotherapy.)
,mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:39:26 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: the meaning of...
Reply to message
from country@SOVER.NET of Fri, 04 Jul
>
>in that
category i think one must see bob kaufman as the compleat beat as well:
>he threw
himself on car hoods, declaimng poems and poetic manifesto . he
>wrote his
pomes with no plan for publishing them. many still exist solely
>because
friends would follow him, picking up pomes written on cocktail
>napkins and
the like...he was busted many times, (reminscent of lenny
>bruce) and
targeted by 'authorities' -socrates also comes to mind:
and so on...what
caught my attention was the line, "he wrote his poems with
no plan for
publishing them." A few years ago
(okay, two) I took a course
at my college
called "The Moral Positions of
Poetry," in which we
discussed poetry
& its meaning, its purpose, its obligation to society, if
it had any at
all. And one day our conversation was
over this: if you
write a poem, but
don't publish it, don't let anyone else read it, can it
really be a
poem? If the words are written down but
then never read, can
it really be a
work of art? Isn't there an obligation
to let your work be
heard once it's
been written? Which consequently leads to thoughts of who
makes the poem,
the writer writing the words on paper with their feelings &
emotions, or the
reader who reads the words and adds new feelings &
emotions? Is a poem really a poem if it's not
read? Kind of like the
question about
the tree in the woods...
Okay, my head
hurts. Happy fourth of July; going to my
friends soon with a
gallon of OJ
& a bottle of sloe gin...let the fireworks begin! :)
Diane. (H, as
opposed to C or D)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:45:57 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: independence day
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Diane....still
existing in unbeknownst pockets of civilization are those
thrilled by the
Fourth of July... people haven't abandoned our
town..it's alive
with sparkle of excitement....kids booming with
energy..the
picnics and parties and swimming...the adults happy..glad to
live in this
country. And when the jets zoom
overhead..or when I get a
glimpse of the
ungainly stealth... I think....YEAH! I like my country,
the people
here...and am grateful to the men and women and taxpayers who
are willing to
sacrifice for it. My son painted the
American
flag....three red
stripes and a splatter of blue in the corner. It's
hanging on my
fridge. I love it. That flag gives you
the right...to
express your
contempt for your country and fellow Americans.
I,
however, on this
particular day, would like to say how damn,
dingle-dangle
lucky I am to live here, and raise children here, and be a
part of something
I can take pride in ...and change if I see a need.
Barbara
Cheers for those who keep our freedom
alive...and those who died
creating it.
Diane De Rooy
wrote:
>
> For three
days the neighborhood has been sounding with bombs and whistles,
> sirens of
fire trucks, machine-gun retorting firecracker strings, all day,
> all night,
like a war, no cease-fire, like Beirut. Every two minutes a big
> jet soars
away from SeaTac, carrying people on holidays like torpedoes
> launching
from submarines, on target.
>
> And evening
comes on the third of July and the town is shutting down. You can
> hear it. You
can feel it. Everyone is gone somewhere. In ice chests
> watermelons
chill alongside beer and the sun stays up in the sky to stare
> into
people's windows, causing a breeze to run around it like a puppy looking
> for a
tussle, tossing up bamboo shades, weak ramparts against the unrelenting
> horizontal
rays of this star made of fire.
>
> No cars on
the streets... people walk right down the middle of the avenues,
> some
drinking from brown paper bags, others sweating in uniforms dying to get
> home to have
one day off, one lousy extra day off, for any reason at all.
> Previously
unheard bird calls issue forth from bushes, these birds now
> willing to
speak because they don't have to compete with cell phones and car
> horns and
beepers. Little children's voices are the only sounds of human
> life, except
the echoing of a basketball hard and hollow hitting the concrete
> driveway
over and over and over and over goddamit shoot goddamit... god.
>
> Small
planes, float planes, planes dragging signs through the thick blue air,
> revving like
lawnmower looking for clouds to trim, fly east to west, west to
> east, at
right angles to the jets where passengers hear, "This is the captain
> speaking...
if you'll look out the window to your left, you'll see Puget
> Sound and
the Olympic Mountains. And not to be outdone, to the right you'll
> see the
Cascades and Bill Gates' fortress on the shores of Medina, right here
> in the
Emerald City..."
>
> It feels
like I'm the only one left in town, although I know that isn't true,
> but it's
something I've always dreamed about, so it's okay with me. I'm
> amazed at
the quiet. I don't know when was the last time this town was so
> still. I'm
thinking about Central Washington, 100 degrees as usual, and this
> little
breeze... over there this breeze can whip a firecracker in the grass
> into a
wildfire before you can even get the garden hose turned on. I'm so
> glad to be
here, not in that place which is truly next door to hell, where
> the smell of
sulfur dominates chicken barbecuing on the grill and the heat
> makes you
sit in the kiddies' pool without shame, where borate bombers drop
> their puny
cargo with the efficacy of a wad shot into a condom, then drone on
> back to base
camp for another load of blood-red dust and lots of summer
> overtime pay
for the pilot.
>
> 5 a.m. on
the 4th of July and I wake up to those birds; I hadn't even noticed
> when they
stopped singing. Now the sun breaks red over the ridge in the east,
> still
staring through jet streams but cool and bright, a joker setting this
> town up for
this day of uncertain weather. In a few minutes the jets will
> start up
again, firecrackers will accompany breakfast, flags will be
> unfurled,
maybe it'll start raining. Will I ponder the nature of freedom or
> eat potato
salad?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:09:59 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: the meaning of...
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
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Diane M. Homza
wrote:
> A few years
ago (okay, two) I took a course
> at my
college called "The Moral Positions
of Poetry," in which we
> discussed
poetry & its meaning, its purpose, its obligation to society, if
> it had any
at all. And one day our conversation was
over this: if you
> write a
poem, but don't publish it, don't let anyone else read it, can it
> really be a
poem? If the words are written down but
then never read, can
> it really be
a work of art? Isn't there an obligation
to let your work be
> heard once
it's been written? Which consequently leads to thoughts of who
> makes the
poem, the writer writing the words on paper with their feelings &
> emotions, or
the reader who reads the words and adds new feelings &
>
emotions? Is a poem really a poem if
it's not read? Kind of like the
> question
about the tree in the woods...
>
> Diane. (H,
as opposed to C or D)
Diane:
If you write it
and it means something to you, then it is different from
the tree in the
forest because you hear the poem. The
tree in the
forest is heard
by no one. There are poets who never get
published,
even when they
want to be. There are poets who get
published that never
should be. So, it is the intent of the creator, isn't
it?
Then again, maybe
it is only a poem if it receives the American Poetry
Society Seal of
Authentic Poetry and is approved by both Newt Gingrich
and Jesse Helms. Then it is real poetry.
Or maybe only if
it has been condemned to death by a reviewer at the New
York Times.
Or maybe only if
David takes it on a Firewalk and it comes back
unsinged.
Or maybe only if
WSB uses it for target practice.
Or maybe only if
HST finds it to be gonzo.
BTW, speaking of
HST, to those who have never read HST, the closing
portion of Fear
and Loathing on the Campaign Trail contains some straght
ahead writing
about politics. It is one of the finest
sociological
essays I have
seen written. It is not gonzo, but
brilliant and
insightful.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:23:55 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the meaning of...
heard that
Bentz. art is an experience. so even if it only occurs in one's
head, it's
experienced... that's enough for it to exist.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 12:09 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the meaning of...
Diane M. Homza
wrote:
> A few years
ago (okay, two) I took a course
> at my
college called "The Moral Positions
of Poetry," in which we
> discussed
poetry & its meaning, its purpose, its obligation to society, if
> it had any
at all. And one day our conversation was
over this: if you
> write a
poem, but don't publish it, don't let anyone else read it, can it
> really be a
poem? If the words are written down but
then never read, can
> it really be
a work of art? Isn't there an obligation
to let your work be
> heard once
it's been written? Which consequently leads to thoughts of who
> makes the
poem, the writer writing the words on paper with their feelings &
> emotions, or
the reader who reads the words and adds new feelings &
>
emotions? Is a poem really a poem if
it's not read? Kind of like the
> question
about the tree in the woods...
>
> Diane. (H,
as opposed to C or D)
Diane:
If you write it
and it means something to you, then it is different from
the tree in the
forest because you hear the poem. The
tree in the
forest is heard
by no one. There are poets who never get
published,
even when they
want to be. There are poets who get
published that never
should be. So, it is the intent of the creator, isn't
it?
Then again, maybe
it is only a poem if it receives the American Poetry
Society Seal of
Authentic Poetry and is approved by both Newt Gingrich
and Jesse
Helms. Then it is real poetry.
Or maybe only if
it has been condemned to death by a reviewer at the New
York Times.
Or maybe only if
David takes it on a Firewalk and it comes back
unsinged.
Or maybe only if
WSB uses it for target practice.
Or maybe only if
HST finds it to be gonzo.
BTW, speaking of
HST, to those who have never read HST, the closing
portion of Fear
and Loathing on the Campaign Trail contains some straght
ahead writing
about politics. It is one of the finest
sociological
essays I have
seen written. It is not gonzo, but
brilliant and
insightful.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:13:05 +0000
Reply-To: birdies@ix.netcom.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Birdie <birdies@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: The
Day-Glo Techno Trouser Club
Subject: Movies: Jack & Neil
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
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Hi all,
Birdie here...new
to the list.
Is there an
archive of posts? a faq?
Has anyone seen
"The Last Time I Committed Suicide" ~ about a few months
in the life of
Neal Cassady during the 50's in Colorado? Heard it did
well at The
Sundance Film Festival and it has gotten a very good review
in The LA Weekly.
Also, I may have
missed posts about all this, but I've heard there is to
be a film made of
JK's "On The Road". Anyone know who is directing,
writing,
producing, starring in?
Stay cool!
Cheers then,
Birdie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:01:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody
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Hey,
Halftime of WNBA
so i'll take a moment to type a bit.
I have diligently
read a few pages in Cody several times now.
Each time
i come back to it
i end up starting over. Each time i
begin and end in
the same
fog. Maybe that's what it is supposed to
be - but maybe i'm
missing something
b/c i ain't as familiar with the larger context of all
of this as so
many of y'all.
i guess the
question that creates the fog in all of this is i have no
sense of what is
going on. it seems like JK is lost in
memory in
several different
cases - and maybe that is why i have no sense of place
or time or any
real sense of (dare i say) Reality.
it isn't that i'm
not alright with the a-reality of memory experience
but i'm having
one of those fears that i'm missing something that i need
to recall
later. i remember having this feeling
long ago the first time
i ever read
anything by JK.
so if there is
something more concrete than snapshots of memory and
longing for
connection with Cody in the first few pages somebody let me
in on what's
happening. if not, i'll just plunge
forward soon -
probably not
until the morning.
unrelated, i'm
gradually and slowly in a meandering style beginning a
retrospective
five years after the firewalk writings.
so far the
protagonist is a
bathroom that is becoming My bathroom in a particular
apartment named
#23. the title of the entire project is
"Salina" and it
begins with
epigrams by JK, WSB, and Kenneth Burke.
FireWalk was a mad
fit of typing
into and out of insanities i'd been in and out of for
several
years. Salina is, so far, an attempt to
employ creativity to
return from
chaos. The container called bathroom is
the focal point of
return. From this temple only time will tell how many
rooms and blocks
away the tale
will roam.
hope everyone
enjoyed their independence from King George and
subservience to
Bubba and Newt today.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:20:40 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Bubba and Newt
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David:
Jesse Helms is
the J Edgar Hoover of the 90's. I don't
know about his
preference for
evening wear, but he has more power that Newt or Bubba
Bill. I didn't do it, and if I did, it was only
once. Ask yourself,
would this
country be half as amusing if Day Quayle was president? No
way. Long live Bubba.
And now, we have
TAXATION DESPITE REPRESENTATION!!!!!!!
Thank God for
that!
>From the Book
of Dreams: pg 121
WRITING DREAMS,
TAKE NOTE OF THE WAY THE
DREAMING MIND
CREATES
THE ANNALS OF
JACK KEROUAC--Annals indeed--anal ones--the Mind wished
and dream'd
itself a spate of San Jose where I'm taken to the parking
lot of work at a
location I hadnt daydreamed, (word daydreamed
underlined) on
that road leading North from Santa Clara towards the yard
office and the
airport--and because I'm not drinking or smoking tea my
mind is very
clear and I'm very friendly and direct with everyone and
play with the
kids with a spirit of serenity etc.
Well, I think
I'll get me an Anal Kerouac Beer. Aged
since 1969.
Eternal in its
refreshing qualities and no more than a dime in US
currency. Get yours before the orgones are gones.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:43:34 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: JK/ HST
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marie--
Plaudits on far
and away the best analysis of Jack, the
Bottle and
assorted dopes.
J Stauffer
Marie Countryman
wrote:
> he drank.
> and he
wrote.
> i dont think
he wrote because he drank;
> i dont think
he drank because he wrote;
> i think he
wrote because he HAD to, was writing for years as child and
> never
stopped.
> he may have
started drinking to ease self in social situations (akward and
> shy) or to
medicate away the pain of his sensitivity and depressions.
> but imho,
> all
speculation about what he coulda been if he didnt drink is all moot to me.
> ('i couldda be a contendor! (brando on the
waterfront) and all that.
> speaking of
HST/motorcycles/bad boys/legends and real life:
watching the
> wild bunch
while i strip down my bicycle, wearing my 'colors' on this day.
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:56:50 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: BROTHER BENTZ
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Hey Bentz,
Helms is the new
Hoover=97which speaking of=97you should see the
XXX Hoover from
Slime Comix. Robert Peters sent me a copy for
$2.95. Robert's a
helluva fine writer and poet-a good friend
of C. Plymell.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:01:02 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> I have
diligently read a few pages in Cody several times now. Each
>time
> i come back
to it i end up starting over. Each time
i begin and end in
> the same
fog. Maybe that's what it is supposed to
be - but maybe i'm
> missing
something b/c i ain't as familiar with the larger context of
>all
> of this as
so many of y'all.
>
> i guess the
question that creates the fog in all of this is i have no
> sense of
what is going on. it seems like JK is
lost in memory in
> several
different cases - and maybe that is why i have no sense of
>place
> or time or
any real sense of (dare i say) Reality.
>
> it isn't
that i'm not alright with the a-reality of memory experience
> but i'm
having one of those fears that i'm missing something that i
>need
> to recall
later. i remember having this feeling
long ago the first
>time
> i ever read
anything by JK.
>
> so if there
is something more concrete than snapshots of memory and
> longing for
connection with Cody in the first few pages somebody let me
> in on what's
happening. if not, i'll just plunge
forward soon -
> probably not
until the morning.
>
My sense of the
beginning of VOC is that it is supposed to be "out of
time." No chronological sequence, just what is going
on in his head in
each moment as he
wanders around, remembering things, and describing in
great detail all
that he sees. Yes, longing for Cody at
this point. I
don't think we
will see any chronological sequences. My
expectation is
that these short
descriptive moments will just slowly turn into longer
ones that change
somehow, moments that go on for more and more pages,
perhaps continual
stream of consciousness or even beyond that.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:55:54 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Bubba and Newt
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> David:
>
> Jesse Helms
is the J Edgar Hoover of the 90's. I
don't know about his
> preference
for evening wear, but he has more power that Newt or Bubba
> Bill. I didn't do it, and if I did, it was only
once. Ask yourself,
> would this
country be half as amusing if Day Quayle was president? No
> way. Long live Bubba.
>
> And now, we
have TAXATION DESPITE REPRESENTATION!!!!!!!
>
> Thank God
for that!
>
I think Bubba
trumped Jesse when he picked a Dominatrix for Secretary of
State. Amazing after that rendevouz how Jesse
changed his tune on the
Chemical Weapons
Treaty !!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:28:00 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Comments: To:
stand666@bitstream.net
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In a message
dated 97-07-03 23:52:56 EDT, you write:
<< When we
first met he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
After awhile, I would show up at his place
(usually stoned) with some
beer. He would drink it and then throw me out.
I would just laugh and
eventually we became friends=97a very slow
process, I might add. When Ci=
ty
Lights released Charles Plymell's, "The
Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
was totally blown away. Here was a man that
spoke to my soul and had
been thru similar hells. It was like
discovering the "big brother" I
always wanted. I met Allen Ginsberg in '72,
and he turned me onto some
of the Beat writers, but I always returned to
Plymell as a Beat
source=97he had the edge that seemed to be
lacking in other writers at t=
he
time. >>
Richard:
How wonderful it
is to be mentioned with the idiots and assholes. We just
read your Pulse
interview. I printed so I could study it
a little more. =
I
read the list
every night but I hadn't seen it posted. Someone was asking
about the 666 a
while back. Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian armor=
". I
wonder how many
on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of =
his
orgone energy
luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube. =20
Be back in touch
later. I'll read the interview again
tonight.
Charley
Someone sent us a
new computer and we're just breaking it in.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:32:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Scattered Poems
Are angels coming
back now?
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:37:57 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody
Firewalking
firetalking. I met a woman from Big Sur tonight. Didn't think
I'd ever meet a
woman from Big Sur and here she was in Cherry Valley.
Yours in the
saline sunset.
An old salt.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:36:29 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Scattered Poems
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Are angels
coming back now?
> C. Plymell
I think they made
the cover of TIME magazine a few years back -- but i
don't think its
the same crew of angels.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:44:48 PDT
Reply-To: Tamelyn Feinstein
<sleepytam@HOTMAIL.COM>
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From: Tamelyn Feinstein
<sleepytam@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: greetings
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greetings to all
I'm new to the list. Am reading all I can about
Ginsburg and am
completely in love.
please send your
suggestions as to what I should read (I'm a bit of a
novice here) also
any great stories you have.
_______________________________________________________
Get Private
Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:11:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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If listmembers are
ignorant of W. Reich they should check him out.
Stricks me as the
only Psych. theorist to be a useful basis for the
hipster
revolution. A revolutionary like Pound
who looked to need
locking up. Does WSB still use an orgone box? I did some interesting
work with Chuck
Kelley who was a Reich disciple in LA and Ojai.
J Stauffer
Charles Plymell
wrote . . .
Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian
armor". I
> wonder how
many on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of his
> orgone energy
luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:15:24 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody
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How fitting to
have Big Sur come to Cherry Valley. May
crews of Angels
have given you
all a good Fourth, I'm going forth to watch the
fireworks, do
some firewalks, a Marswalk or two, and
maybe look for a
beer and a pool
game.
James Stauffer
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Firewalking
firetalking. I met a woman from Big Sur tonight. Didn't think
> I'd ever
meet a woman from Big Sur and here she was in Cherry Valley.
> Yours in the
saline sunset.
> An old salt.
> Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:30:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-03 23:52:56 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
When we first met he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
> After awhile, I would show up at his place
(usually stoned) with some
> beer. He would drink it and then throw me
out. I would just laugh and
> eventually we became friends a very slow
process, I might add. When City
> Lights released Charles Plymell's, "The
Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
> was totally blown away. Here was a man that
spoke to my soul and had
> been thru similar hells. It was like
discovering the "big brother" I
> always wanted. I met Allen Ginsberg in '72,
and he turned me onto some
> of the Beat writers, but I always returned to
Plymell as a Beat
> source he had the edge that seemed to be
lacking in other writers at the
> time. >>
>
> Richard:
> How
wonderful it is to be mentioned with the idiots and assholes. We just
> read your
Pulse interview. I printed so I could
study it a little more. I
> read the
list every night but I hadn't seen it posted. Someone was asking
> about the
666 a while back. Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian armor". I
> wonder how
many on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of his
> orgone
energy luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube.
> Be back in touch
later. I'll read the interview again
tonight.
> Charley
> Someone sent
us a new computer and we're just breaking it in.
Charles:
They have now
done experiments with electrical charges through cells.
If they keep it
at the approriate level, good health. If
they raise or
lower it, then
cancer grows. If they take it back, the
cancer is kaput.
Reich was
right. Alexander Lowen expanded on
Reich's theories in a
conventional
therapy way. He developed certain
exercises designed to
break up the
armor. Very good reading too.
peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:56:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: The Drummer
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THE DRUMMER
The Drummer beats
out my rhythm
Dum-dum,
Dum-da-da-Dum
Dum-dum,
Dum-da-da-Dum,
Driving this
machine higher,
Making me see
fire,
Driving this
machine higher!
Bam-bam,
dum-dum-dum
Bam-bam,
dum-dum-dum.
He carries the
beat,
He makes the
rhythm,
bum-da-bum-da-da-da-da
bum-bum-bum-da-dum-da-da
And the guitar
can fly,
So high, so high,
so high.
I feel electric,
My body is
wracked by snares,
My body is
tumbled by tom-toms.
And for three
years he was the BEST in the world.
A little white
boy,
Man, he was the
best!
King of the hill.
Now, cheap
hotels.
Week long drunks.
Stolen
friendships.
Forged
autographs.
Fraudulent deals
for a drink.
Better that he
had died.
Better than he
had died.
Such is the ugly
face,
Of bitterness
revealed,
Such is 4/4 time
ingrained,
That will not
stop.
Such is the fame,
That was a stone,
Around his neck.
Better that he
loved poppies.
Better that he
popped lovers.
Better that he
had disappeared.
Better that he
had gone to Mars.
Better that he
never saw Bars.
Better that he
never loved cheap wine.
Better that his
soul was saved.
Better that his
ego was sucked up.
Better that his
sticks had never beaten.
Better that his live
had not been liven.
Better that his
lies had not been given.
Better for me
that his three years were liven,
But that was
better for me, not him.
Better for me
that he made the music,
But the muses ate
his soul,
But refused his
body.
The muses are not
kind.
Nor are they
blind,
They refused his
body for a reason.
Death seemed too
good for him.
As he had no life
to live.
The drummer beat
the rhythm
Of the best rock
music
Has ever given.
Beat the rhythm,
Til he gave all
he had for giving.
The drummer beat
the rhythm,
But you listen
and know not what you're given.
The drummer beat
the rhythm.
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:52:11 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
In-Reply-To: <33BDC97A.2B46@pacbell.net>
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>If
listmembers are ignorant of W. Reich they should check him out.
>Stricks me as
the only Psych. theorist to be a useful basis for the
>hipster
revolution.
Orgones are cells
that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
drugs? i read On
the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot of
mention of
orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything about
Reich besides
beat references, but am wondering can orgones be dependent on
say, artistic
creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
completely wrong
about what they are?
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:52:46 -0500
Reply-To: Natalie Foster
<nfoster@SOUTHWIND.NET>
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From: Natalie Foster
<nfoster@SOUTHWIND.NET>
Subject: *quiet
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one can only look
at these posts so long without saying anything. =
sometimes I just
want to beging typing wildly, anything and everything =
on my blank white
computer screen and then send it in for it to appear =
curiously in each
of your boxes and i to sit here in Kansas knowing that =
each one of you
are in different time zones reading my thoughts and =
fears and judging
them, and possibly replying but probably not.
and so I don't.
and so I flip the
switch and got to bed...another
poem, story, line
lost
I just wanted to
write in tonight, seeing that it isn't so busy...and =
voice the fact
that all of you are so incredible in your ways...reading =
many of your
posts, one can come to see the personalities take form. One =
can learn so very
much. I have. from a quiet bystander on the list, =
thanks. Keep it
up. I have received the reading list for my Great Books =
colloquiem (sp)
in the Fall and realize that I won't be touching any of =
my favorites for
a while~ It is quite extensive. So I am placing Jack =
and Allen and
Gregory on the shelf for a while in favor of Milton, =
Sophocles and
Sappho. :( I know I will be glad I did it in the end, but =
it sure is hard
in the time being to read a set list that is placed =
before me!
Well, enjoy what
is left of the fourth~
Quietly at the
terminal,
natalie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:06:18 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Friday (afternoon, summer)
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Friday afternoon summer
blue collars clean out punching papers
bank closed
calm
calm
hasty employees swarm like ants
calm
calm
money has stopped working (except credit card)
&
pensioners have lost the cork of the bottle
&
cats
&
cats are dozing on the patio
&
cats wont' eat the poor birdies fallen
from the nest
&
clouds
clouds?
& the clouds turned pink from the
brush of canaletto
calm
calm calm
until
MONDAY
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*
"Io sono una
forza del Passato.
Solo nella
tradizione e' il mio amore."
Pier Paolo
Pasolini
*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:19:54 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> >If
listmembers are ignorant of W. Reich they should check him out.
> >Stricks
me as the only Psych. theorist to be a useful basis for the
> >hipster
revolution.
>=20
> Orgones are
cells that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
> drugs? i
read On the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot =
of
> mention of
orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything about
> Reich
besides beat references, but am wondering can orgones be dependen=
t on
> say,
artistic creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
> completely
wrong about what they are?
>=20
> -leo
i'd be very
interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
experience with
these orgone notions. i've seen and
heard a bit over
years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
provide a very
important angle.
hope to hear more
tales of the legendary boxes.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:13:04 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>=20
> Orgones are
cells that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
> drugs? i
read On the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot=20
> of
> mention of
orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything=20
> about
> Reich
besides beat references, but am wondering can orgones be=20
> dependent on
> say,
artistic creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
> completely
wrong about what they are?
>=20
> -leo
> RACE ---
wrote:
>=20
> i'd be very
interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
> experience
with these orgone notions. i've seen and
heard a bit over
> years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
> provide a very
important angle.
>=20
> hope to hear
more tales of the legendary boxes.
>=20
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
The cell
explanation makes some sense, but where does the box come in?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:30:33 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody
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I'm now at the
letter at the end of part 1, pgs. 38-43, seems like we are
finally being set
up for JK's writing about Cody, which looks like
it's about to begin
in part 2, getting past the yearning to the point
where we are told
why Cody means so much to him.
Can you imagine
receiving this letter? Reveals a tremendous amount about
what is going on
in JK's head:
"anybody who
knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about in my
secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows of time
and personality, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the way with
me...I am completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves you and
digs your greatness completely--haunted in the mind by
you..."
There have been
quite a few Joycian references up to this point, was this
the time he was
reading Joyce?
describing
Swenson (does anyone who Swenson refers to?) as "wrapping
himself around
doors, melting, like Bloom, most like Leopold Bloom in a
Dream..."
(odyssey structure referred to later).
Then, "I dig
Joyce and Proust above Melville and Celine, like you; and I
dig you as we
together dig the lostness and the fact that of course
nothing's ever to
be gained but our death..."
Also lots of
personal consciousness of death, guilt, and needing
something beyond
what he can find--soul-searching going on as in these
two passages:
"I am
conscious of my own personal tragedy...I have the persistent
feeling that I'm
going to die soon, only the feeling, no real I think
wish or
'premonition.' I feel like I've done wrong, to myself the most
wrong, I'm
throwing away something that I can't even find in the
incredible
clutter of my being, but it's going out with the refuse en
masse, buried in
the middle of it, every now and then I think I get a
glimpse....
"I really
know now, you'll see, of course everything is fine because I've
won (you see I
almost lost this summer, if I had gone to Mexico with
Julien instead of
re-remembering my soul in the hospital (Oh what things
I have or could
tell you about the hospital! what
literatures out of
just that one
month (remember the wheelchair letter?) for my big personal
knowledge of the
Odyssey structure (this is apart from objective
fragments of my
life to examine)--with Julien, Mexico, drunk, June dying,
I might have gone
under, that is seriously, in the habit of dying and
started doing it
and maybe even in the powerful gut feeling I had (and
still do, never
had it before, it makes me lush) maybe even a habit
itself, junk,
from sheer need to turn over before I kick the dog..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:53:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: AG, HST, HELL'S ANGELS, PRANKSTERS
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ok i'm just about
down to turn my hog in for fast cars and women re:Cody,
but before i do
here is a piece of history:
"during the
weeks prceeding the second march on the oakland army terminal,
AG spent much of
his time trying to persuade Barger and his people notto
attack the
marchers. on the wednesday before the march ginsberg, kesey,
cassady, some of
keysey's pranksters and a group of angels met at Barger's
housein oakland.
A lot of lsd was taken, foolish political discussion was
resolved by
phonograph voices of joan baez and bob dylan, all concluding
with the whole
group chanting the text of the Prajnaparamitra Sutre, the
buddhist highest,
perfect word sermon.
the outlaws had
never seen anyone quite like Ginsberg: they considered him
otherwordly.
'that goddamn ginsverg is gonna fuck us *all* up' said terry.
'for a guy that
aint straight at all, he's about the straightest son of a
bitch i ever
seen. man, you shoulda been there when he told sonny he loved
him...sonny didnt
know what the hell to say.'
the angels never
really understood what ginsberg meantginsverg meant, but
his unnerving frankness and the fact that
kesey liked him gave them
second thoughts
about attacking a march that he obviously considered a
Right thing.
shortly before the november march, ginsberg published this
speech in the
berkeley barb (please ignore typos, no caps, etc.)
To The Angels
these are the
thoughts-anxieties-of anxious marchers
that the angels will attack them
for kicks, or to get publicity,
to take th heat off
themselves
or to get the goodwill of
police&press/or right
wing money
That a conscious
deal has been made with oakland
police
or an unconscious rapport, tacit
understanding
mutual sympathy
that oakland will laly off persecuting
the angels
if the angels attack & break up the
march &
make it a riot
Is any of this
true, or is it the paranoia of the less
stable-minded marchers?
As long as angels
are ambivuous and don't give open
reassurance that they could be trusted
to be tranquil,
the anxious
souls, the naturally violent, the insecure, the
hysterics among
the marchers have an excuse for
policy of
self-defense thru violence,
a rationalization for their own inner
violence
That leaves the
marchers with choice of defending them-
selves thru force on a ccount of fear
& threat
unleashing the more irrational minority
of rebels
or at best,
defending themselves cool, under control
BUT CRITICIZED FOR BEING LAWLESS
or not defending
selves, and possible abandoned by
plice
(for we have no clear assurance from
oakland police
that they will sincerely try to
maintain order and guard
our lawful right to
march)
if you
attack,&having innocent pacifists, youths
&old ladies busted up
AND CRITICIZED AS IRRESPONSIBLE COWARDS
by you, by press, by public and by
violence loving leftists
& rightists
.........
You dont want to
"change" you want to be yourselves
& if that includes sadism, or
forced hostility,
here's a situation where you can get
away with it.
BUT NOBODY WANTS
TO REJECT THE SOULS OF
THE HELL'S ANGELS
or make them change-
WE JUST DON'T WANT TO
GET BEAT UP
.......
what ELSE,
besides this politics, will take the heat
off the hell's angels?
that heat's on
everybody, no just you
to go to war, to be drafted,
to make money on war jobs and
&economy, to be destroyed
by Bomb, to get busted
for pot--
to take the heat
off, you've got
to take the heat off
INSIDE YOURSELFVES--
find peace means stop hating youself
stop hating people who hate you
stop reflecting HEAT
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HEAT
THE MOST OF PEACE MARCHERS ARE NOT HEAT
they want you to
join them to relieve
the heat on you & on all of us
...............
how much the
march will be a free expression
of calm people who have controlled
their own hatreds
and are showing
the american people
how to control their own feat &
hatred
and once and for
all be done with the pressure
building up to annhilate the planet
and take our part
ENDING THE HEAT on earth
(delivered as a
speech at san jose state college
monday november
15, 1965
before students
and representatives of
bay areas hell's
angels
on nov. 19--day
before the march--the angels called a pres conference to
announce that
they would not counterdemonstrate "in the interest of public
safety and the
good name of oakland....because our patriotic concern for
what these people
are doing to our great nation may provoke us to violent
acts.. [and that]
any physical encounter would only produce sympathy for
this mob of
traitors."
mc.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:50:04 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody
Very frustrated
that I haven't started reading VOC yet. Should be getting up
to City Lights
today. Looks amazing and fascinating,
thanks for whetting my
appetite even
further, Diane. If there's one thing I
can't resist, it's
anything that
refers to Ulysses... What a dunce I've
been for not reading
Cody sooner.
Ciao,
Sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 11:30 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Cody
I'm now at the
letter at the end of part 1, pgs. 38-43, seems like we are
finally being set
up for JK's writing about Cody, which looks like
it's about to
begin in part 2, getting past the yearning to the point
where we are told
why Cody means so much to him.
Can you imagine
receiving this letter? Reveals a tremendous amount about
what is going on
in JK's head:
"anybody who
knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about in my
secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows of time
and personality, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the way with
me...I am completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves you and
digs your greatness completely--haunted in the mind by
you..."
There have been
quite a few Joycian references up to this point, was this
the time he was
reading Joyce?
describing
Swenson (does anyone who Swenson refers to?) as "wrapping
himself around
doors, melting, like Bloom, most like Leopold Bloom in a
Dream..."
(odyssey structure referred to later).
Then, "I dig
Joyce and Proust above Melville and Celine, like you; and I
dig you as we
together dig the lostness and the fact that of course
nothing's ever to
be gained but our death..."
Also lots of
personal consciousness of death, guilt, and needing
something beyond
what he can find--soul-searching going on as in these
two passages:
"I am
conscious of my own personal tragedy...I have the persistent
feeling that I'm
going to die soon, only the feeling, no real I think
wish or
'premonition.' I feel like I've done wrong, to myself the most
wrong, I'm
throwing away something that I can't even find in the
incredible
clutter of my being, but it's going out with the refuse en
masse, buried in
the middle of it, every now and then I think I get a
glimpse....
"I really
know now, you'll see, of course everything is fine because I've
won (you see I
almost lost this summer, if I had gone to Mexico with
Julien instead of
re-remembering my soul in the hospital (Oh what things
I have or could
tell you about the hospital! what
literatures out of
just that one
month (remember the wheelchair letter?) for my big personal
knowledge of the
Odyssey structure (this is apart from objective
fragments of my
life to examine)--with Julien, Mexico, drunk, June dying,
I might have gone
under, that is seriously, in the habit of dying and
started doing it
and maybe even in the powerful gut feeling I had (and
still do, never
had it before, it makes me lush) maybe even a habit
itself, junk,
from sheer need to turn over before I kick the dog..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:12:34 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: big apologies from a girl who talks
too much (and to the
wrong person!!)
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Becca. absolutely
no problem whatsoever...although you may want to
withdraw that
offer of menial household work when you find out I have a
four yr old and
three yr old...I get to pick all sorts of fun and
interesting things out of the carpet! (did anyone know
that Lucky
Charms and milk
turn into superglue after 24 hours? its true...I've
stumbled onto a
trade secret or something) :)
Barb
Becca91894@aol.com
wrote:
>
> barbara--
>
> i'm
sorry. apparently i confused you with
someone else when responding to
>
"your" post. i meant no harm
and was not attempting to aim fire at
> anyone--it
was just a thought of my own that sort of corresponded with what
> the post was
about.
> i really has
no intention of offending anyone, and if i did so with my reply
> (as i
suspect i did) i'm truly sorry. look at
me, i'm on the list two weeks
> and i've
already alienated someone! i don't know
what to say except to
> apologize
profusely and hope you can accept that, since i can't be at your
> house to do
any menial work as punishment for upsetting you. :)
>
> hmmm. i wonder who i meant to send that to?
>
> again, i'm
very sorry for any negative feelings i caused you to feel.
>
> in
contrition,
>
> becca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:29:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
ok, i'll show my ignorance, what's the name of
the book? have to read it...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R.
Bentz Kirby
Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 9:30 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Pamela Beach Plymell
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-03 23:52:56 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
When we first met he called me an idiot and I called him an asshole.
> After awhile, I would show up at his place
(usually stoned) with some
> beer. He would drink it and then throw me
out. I would just laugh and
> eventually we became friends a very slow
process, I might add. When City
> Lights released Charles Plymell's, "The
Last Of The Moccasins" in '71, I
> was totally blown away. Here was a man that
spoke to my soul and had
> been thru similar hells. It was like
discovering the "big brother" I
> always wanted. I met Allen Ginsberg in '72,
and he turned me onto some
> of the Beat writers, but I always returned to
Plymell as a Beat
> source he had the edge that seemed to be
lacking in other writers at the
> time. >>
>
> Richard:
> How
wonderful it is to be mentioned with the idiots and assholes. We just
> read your
Pulse interview. I printed so I could
study it a little more. I
> read the
list every night but I hadn't seen it posted. Someone was asking
> about the
666 a while back. Maybe it was peeling off that "Reichian armor".
I
> wonder how
many on the list know about Wilhelm. I have a neat picture of his
> orgone
energy luminating in an 0.5 micron pressure vacuum tube.
> Be back in
touch later. I'll read the interview
again tonight.
> Charley
> Someone sent
us a new computer and we're just breaking it in.
Charles:
They have now
done experiments with electrical charges through cells.
If they keep it
at the approriate level, good health. If
they raise or
lower it, then
cancer grows. If they take it back, the
cancer is kaput.
Reich was
right. Alexander Lowen expanded on
Reich's theories in a
conventional
therapy way. He developed certain
exercises designed to
break up the
armor. Very good reading too.
peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:39:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody/memory/dr sax
In-Reply-To: <33BDEA09.611C@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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ok down off the
hogs for a while. in codyville (the imaginary place that
denver becomes in
jack's mind -- hey for that matter, does anyone who has
heard the ryko
tribute CD kicks, etc - enjoyed mike stipe's piece with the
sad little tinny
music to accompany 'our gang' and the connection to jack's
brown room in
pawtucketville when he played all his elaborate games and
kept meticulous
records of, newspapers etc? as he says hello to his mother
and goes upstairs
enters bedroom and tiny pool hall and bar and all his
gang in there? it
collapses so much together of JK boyhood recollections
AND BY THE WAY
this is not out
of line or subject:
on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:30:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
In a message
dated 97-07-04 23:29:30 EDT, you write:
<<
"Reichian armor". I
wonder how many on the list know about
Wilhelm. >>
I was just
thinking about this film i saw where an Indonesian man could
control the
electical energy in his body and was able to send electric
charges into
people through needles like acupuncture and heal them.
I wonder to what
extent it is possible to control one's orgone cells
consciously.
----maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:27:01 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
In-Reply-To: <33BDD7E0.364A@together.net>
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Diane Carter
wrote:
>>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>>
>> Orgones
are cells that live and die dependent on a specific thing like
>> drugs? i
read On the Road and Junkie by Burroughs where there is a lot
>> of
>> mention
of orgones, but don't remember a lot. Don't know anything
>> about
>> Reich
besides beat references, but am wondering can orgones be
>>
dependent on
>> say,
artistic creation, or less material or organic things, or am i
>>
completely wrong about what they are?
>>
>> -leo
>> RACE ---
wrote:
>>
>> i'd be
very interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
>>
experience with these orgone notions.
i've seen and heard a bit over
>> years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
>> provide
a very important angle.
>>
>> hope to
hear more tales of the legendary boxes.
>>
>> david
rhaesa
>> salina,
Kansas
>
>The cell
explanation makes some sense, but where does the box come in?
>DC
In On the Road,
Bull Lee (Burroughs) sits in one of these boxes which
supposedly
channels orgone energy from the sun or something. Don't remember
all that very
well either. i'd like to know more about the boxes.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:26:50 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: AG, HST, HELL'S ANGELS, PRANKSTERS
In-Reply-To: <l03020906afe3d8b4ef9a@[206.25.67.118]>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>ok i'm just
about down to turn my hog in for fast cars and women re:Cody,
>but before i
do here is a piece of history:
>
>"during
the weeks prceeding the second march on the oakland army terminal,
>AG spent much
of his time trying to persuade Barger and his people notto
>attack the
marchers. on the wednesday before the march ginsberg, kesey,
>cassady, some
of keysey's pranksters and a group of angels met at Barger's
>housein
oakland. A lot of lsd was taken, foolish political discussion was
>resolved by
phonograph voices of joan baez and bob dylan, all concluding
>with the
whole group chanting the text of the Prajnaparamitra Sutre, the
>buddhist
highest, perfect word sermon.
>the outlaws
had never seen anyone quite like Ginsberg: they considered him
>otherwordly.
'that goddamn ginsverg is gonna fuck us *all* up' said terry.
>'for a guy
that aint straight at all, he's about the straightest son of a
>bitch i ever
seen. man, you shoulda been there when he told sonny he loved
>him...sonny
didnt know what the hell to say.'
>the angels
never really understood what ginsberg meantginsverg meant, but
>his unnerving frankness and the fact that
kesey liked him gave them
>second
thoughts about attacking a march that he obviously considered a
>Right thing.
shortly before the november march, ginsberg published this
>speech in the
berkeley barb (please ignore typos, no caps, etc.)
>To The Angels
>these are the
thoughts-anxieties-of anxious marchers
> that the angels will attack them
> for kicks, or to get publicity,
to take th heat off
> themselves
> or to get the goodwill of
police&press/or right
> wing money
>That a
conscious deal has been made with oakland
> police
> or an unconscious rapport, tacit
understanding
> mutual sympathy
> that oakland will laly off persecuting
the angels
> if the angels attack & break up the
march &
> make it a riot
>Is any of
this true, or is it the paranoia of the less
> stable-minded marchers?
>As long as
angels are ambivuous and don't give open
> reassurance that they could be trusted
to be tranquil,
>the anxious
souls, the naturally violent, the insecure, the
>hysterics
among the marchers have an excuse for
>policy of
> self-defense thru violence,
> a rationalization for their own inner
violence
>That leaves
the marchers with choice of defending them-
> selves thru force on a ccount of fear
& threat
> unleashing the more irrational minority
of rebels
>or at best,
defending themselves cool, under control
> BUT CRITICIZED FOR BEING LAWLESS
>or not
defending selves, and possible
abandoned by plice
> (for we have no clear assurance from
oakland police
> that they will sincerely try to maintain order
and guard
> our lawful right to
march)
>if you
attack,&having innocent pacifists, youths
> &old ladies busted up
> AND CRITICIZED AS IRRESPONSIBLE COWARDS
> by you, by press, by public and by
violence loving leftists
> & rightists
>.........
>You dont want
to "change" you want to be yourselves
> & if that includes sadism, or
forced hostility,
> here's a situation where you can get
away with it.
>BUT NOBODY
WANTS TO REJECT THE SOULS OF
> THE HELL'S ANGELS
> or make them change-
> WE JUST DON'T WANT TO
GET BEAT UP
>.......
>what ELSE,
besides this politics, will take the heat
> off the hell's angels?
>that heat's
on everybody, no just you
> to go to war, to be drafted,
> to make money on war jobs and
&economy, to be destroyed
> by Bomb, to get busted
> for pot--
>
>to take the
heat off, you've got
> to take the heat off
> INSIDE YOURSELFVES--
> find peace means stop hating youself
> stop hating people who hate you
> stop reflecting HEAT
> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HEAT
> THE MOST OF PEACE MARCHERS ARE NOT HEAT
>they want you
to join them to relieve
> the heat on you & on all of us
>...............
>how much the
march will be a free expression
> of calm people who have controlled
> their own hatreds
>and are
showing the american people
> how to control their own feat &
hatred
>and once and
for all be done with the pressure
> building up to annhilate the planet
>and take our
part ENDING THE HEAT on earth
>(delivered as
a speech at san jose state college
>monday
november 15, 1965
>before
students and representatives of
>bay areas
hell's angels
>
>on nov.
19--day before the march--the angels called a pres conference to
>announce that
they would not counterdemonstrate "in the interest of public
>safety and
the good name of oakland....because our patriotic concern for
>what these
people are doing to our great nation may provoke us to violent
>acts.. [and
that] any physical encounter would only produce sympathy for
>this mob of
traitors."
>
>mc.
there's a short
poem in Ginsberg Collected Poems '57-80 called party at Ken
Kesey's w/ Hells
Angel's or something like that. i may be remembering the
title wrong. more
of a mood/feeling piece.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:04:52 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: AG, HST, HELL'S ANGELS, PRANKSTERS
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
> there's a
short poem in Ginsberg Collected Poems '57-80 called party at=
=20
> Ken
> Kesey's w/
Hells Angel's or something like that. i may be remembering=20
> the
> title wrong.
more of a mood/feeling piece.
>=20
This is the poem
you are thinking of, written by Ginsberg in 1965:
First Party at
Ken Kesey's with Hell's Angels
Cool black night
thru the redwoods
cars parked
outside in shade
behind the gate,
stars dim above
the ravine, a
fire burning by the side
porch and a few
tired souls hunched over
in black leather
jackets. In the huge
wooden house, a
yellow chandelier
at 3 a.m. the
blast of loudspeakers
hi-fi Rolling
Stones Ray Charles Beatles
Jumping Joe
Jackson and twenty youths
dancing to the
vibration thru the floor,
a little weed in
the bathroom, girls in scarlet
tights, one
muscular smooth skinned man
sweating dancing
for hours, beer cans
bent littering
the yard, a hanged man
sculpture
dangling from a high creek branch,
children sleeping
softly in their bedroom bunks.
And 4 police cars
parked outside the painted
gate, red lights
revolving in the leaves.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:23:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Washington, DC Independence day
Comments: To:
babu@electriciti.com
my mind is
drawing blank after blank after blank
like an unstudied
exam where the clocks tick loud, sweating.
"Things stay
the same, here", he said last night;
were my eyes full
of kisses as he talked to me?
A sizzle,
high-pitched hissing, the smell of sulfer.
"I like the
smell of matches" his mouth radiated,
sending the words
to float on the sulfer breeze.
somebody
overheard and agreed softly, breathing.
At night, faces
are flashes of white when lighting cigarrettes.
fireworks sound
like bass drums, resonating in the chest.
The boy with the
black hair looked at me from his seat on the steps,
while A. told me
about ghosts she saw in a hotel in Mexico.
I snuck looks at
him between "Really?"s.
The night was
cool after a hot day.
our half of the
Earth was now in the shade, i guess,
but the air was
different.
It had a palpable
presence against skin,
like the warm
hand of a lover once missed.
The missed hand
of a lover, once warm.
The missed warmth
of a hand once loved.
I remembered the
blues man from Mississippi
sitting on the
re-creation of a porch,
the blonde woman
saying "Sing us a cotton-picking song!"
"Sing us a
cotton-picking blues song!", agreed the others.
Jest sittin' here
thankin',
'bout someone I
useta know.
"This song
is called 'Sitting There Thankin'"
He showed me the
Secret Staircase.
On the way down,
some Puerto Rican kids were smoking a blunt
next to their
motorbikes.
We wished them a
happy one.
On the way up the
staircase, I felt the stars laughing.
Residual
firecrackers that take aeons to burn out.
"Happy 5th
of July", said Mike with a kiss.
I didn't want to,
and I knew I wouldn't, go home last night.
It's a new year
for me. God bless America.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:54:16 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
James:
You asked whether
WSB still has an orgone accumulator.
During my visit
with WSB at his home on February 18, 1995, he guided us
(myself and a
friend who accompanied me) on a tour that included his
backyard. As soon as we walked down to it from his
enclosed back porch, one
of the first
things I noticed was the outhouse-like orgone accumulator, right
near his goldfish
pond. I mentioned it to him and he
acknowledged it with a
smile, nod and
"yesssss" before educating us on feeding tips and digestion
processes for
fish. So, as recently as 2&1\2 years
ago he still kept and
used it. Having lived so long (he was 81 then,
phsically in fairly good
shape and
especially mentally sharp) and in such a legendary manner, he could
be the ultimate
poster child for the beneficial effects of the orgone
accumulator and
the veracity of Reich's theories.
Maya, if you're
reading this: I finally have gone
public!
Happy Holidays,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:16:28 +0000
Reply-To: birdies@ix.netcom.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Birdie <birdies@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: The
Day-Glo Techno Trouser Club
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Maya Gorton
wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-04 23:29:30 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
"Reichian armor". I
> wonder how many on the list know about
Wilhelm. >>
>
> I was just
thinking about this film i saw where an Indonesian man could
> control the
electical energy in his body and was able to send electric
> charges into
people through needles like acupuncture and heal them.
>
> I wonder to
what extent it is possible to control one's orgone cells
> consciously.
----maya
Kate Bush wrote a
song ~ Cloudbusting, from her Hounds Of Love CD:
In it, she sings
from a young boy's perspective to a Reichian scientist
father, who has built a Cloudbusting machine to
create rain, and, the
government is
after him for his experiments, and, it deals with paranioa
as well.
The cloudbusting
machine charged the clouds with energy which made them
produce rain.
Donald Sutherland plays the father in the video.
Cloudbusting
I still dream of
Orgonon
I wake up crying
You're making
rain
And you're just
in reach
When you and
sleep escape me
You're like my
yo-yo
That glowed in
the dark
What made it
special
Made it dangerous
So I bury it and
forget
Everytime it
rains
You're here in my
head
Like the sun
coming out
Oooh, I just know
something good is going to happen
And I dont know
when
But just saying
it could make it happen
On top of the
world
Looking over the
edge
You could see
them coming
You looked too
small
In their big
black car
To be a threat to
the men in power
I hid my yo-yo in
the garden
I can't hide you
from the government
Oh god, daddy - I
wont forget
Your son's coming
out
Kate Bush 1985
Cheers,
Birdie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:10:45 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: spelling beat
i apologize for
my abhorrent error in spelling "sulfer" like this in my
previous post and
would like to make an official correction to: SULPHUR
Sorry if I
offended anyone.
------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:40:42 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: spelling beat
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:10 PM
7/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i apologize
for my abhorrent error in spelling "sulfer" like this in my
>previous post
and would like to make an official correction to: SULPHUR
>
>Sorry if I
offended anyone.
>------maya
>
>
I was
appalled. I could not believe anyone
could ever be so insnsitive and
insulting as to
misspell this wonderfull and smelly element.
O thhe
shame. The depths humankind has sunk to.
anyhoow one can
spell sulfur with an f. That is a
perfectly legitimate
spelling as well.
I much prefer it
with the f than the ph.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:54:29 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: spelling beat
Comments: To:
"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
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Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 06:10 PM
7/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >i
apologize for my abhorrent error in spelling "sulfer" like this in my
> >previous
post and would like to make an official correction to: SULPHUR
> >
> >Sorry if
I offended anyone.
>
>------maya
> >
> >
>
> I was
appalled. I could not believe anyone
could ever be so insnsitive and
> insulting as
to misspell this wonderfull and smelly element.
>
> O thhe
shame. The depths humankind has sunk to.
>
> anyhoow one
can spell sulfur with an f. That is a perfectly
legitimate
> spelling as
well.
>
> I much
prefer it with the f than the ph.
if u jest gut a
spul chicker than this thungs donut
hippen. some
prefur othur
werds wid f's to ph's.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:55:50 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: PULSE INTERVIEW (UNCENSORED)
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If I dug around I
might be able to find an orgone box plan I had once.
I need to go back
and look at orgone theory. Most of
Reich's disciples
such as Loewen
and Kelley didn't follow up very much on the farther out
parts of orgone
theory (for the simple reason that they preferred to
stay out of jail)
and worked from his psych. theories in developing
techniques for
dealing with "character armour."
Kelley told me he still
believed in
the orgone theory for the most part and
I think used a
box. Kelley was always something of a sexual
outlaw as well. Loewen and
Bioenergetics
always struck me as pretty square. There
are some
interesting
Reichian therapists still around. There
was a guy in
Berkeley, name
escapes me, who did great things with breathing sessions
that got you high
as a kite, he moved on to using just straight oxygen
hits, and other
inhalants. Flash therapy. That is the nice thing about
Reich, he fits
with an interest in the visionary, estatic experience in
a way that Freud
and Jung don't. Look at the titles to papers at a
Jungian
conference and it will give you the bends.
I don't know
where I got the idea but I had firmly in my head the
Burroughs used an
orgone box, at least during the Texas pot farm phase
that Kerouac
mentions.
J Stauffer
RACE --- wrote:
>
> i'd be very
interested in reading tales and legends from folks who have
> experience
with these orgone notions. i've seen and
heard a bit over
> years in
theory. always think the tales of the
guinea pigs this-selfs
> provide a
very important angle.
>
> hope to hear
more tales of the legendary boxes.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:54:29 +0200
Reply-To: Jean.ORY@hol.fr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>
Organization: ORY
Jean
Subject: Wilhelm Reich
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Orgone is known
in Eastern tradition since thousands years
It is called in
Hinduist tradition: Prana - (Panayama)
In Chinese
tradition: Chi (Tai CHI Chuan - Acupuncture)
In Japanese
tradition: Ki (Ai KI Do)
Recommended
lecture:
Yoga - by T.K.V. Desikachar - University Press of
America
Clear Light of
Bliss - by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - Snow Lion Publication -
Reich was put in
jail.
Best way to learn
about him is to read his books.
The more famous
is "Function of the orgasm"
True that Wilhelm
Reich had a great influence on the hipster culture,
but don't forget
about C.G. Jung whose forewords were in the I Ching, in
the Secret of the
Golden Flower, in the Tibetan Book of the Great
Liberation, in
the Tibetan of the Dead, in Tibetan yoga and Secret
Doctrines, I am
not sure but I think that Jung wrote forewords for some
Zen books too.
Jung, Richard
Wilhelm (the translator of the I King), Hermann Hesse
(Siddharta) were
good friends, I see them as one of the many grand
fathers and the
uncles of the beats.
Just an idea about
an old subject on the list: alcohol and Jack Kerouac.
May be there was
too, somewhere in his unconscious the traditional
"poete
maudit" (Damned Poet) programing.
Enlightened, visionary but
destroyed by the
intensity of his own vision and by the misunderstanding
of his
politically correct contemporaries.
Little bit like
Antonin Artaud who didn't have such friends as Ginsberg
and Bill
Burroughs to understand him and to stretch out a friendly hand
to him.
May be there are
two ways to induce the poetic mood:
The first is by
the "dereglement de tous les sens": creating
artificially by
drugs, bad food, lack of sleep, strong emotions, a
disordered state
of the senses almost near the death experience to
produce the
vision experience of the absolute, like Gerard de Nerval,
Rimbaud, Artaud,
Rene Daumal did.
The second by the
harmonious adjusting of the senses through
meditation. Like the great Zen or Taoist poets or like
Allen Ginsberg
who had practiced
meditative retreats under the guidance of Chogyam
Trungpa and wrote
poems from the peaceful state of mind produced.
The reason why
Wihelm Reich was persecuted was because his studies on
sexuality and
because his commentaries on the political use of the
repression of the
sexual impulse.
There is a
difference beween repression and control.
It is still true:
People don't even notice on TV someone killing
somebody else,
but people would freak out if they were seeing on TV two
consenting adults
making love.
That's one of
many symptoms of the mental sickness of most of the main
cultures of the
world.
At that point,
visions and poets are indispensable to survive.
Jean
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:37 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
Mime-Version: 1.0
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i'm sending this
message out again for some response. response to a post
that will strike
up a literary conversation. and not merely a flood of
posts from the
youngsters who just talk about how much they wished they had
read the works.
with exception of DC Dave and James S, i feel like i'm all
alone here
writing to an empty home room in high school. and dont take this
as a flame,
because flaming will only keep us further away from the beat
lit we are reading/etc.
i know of several people leaving list for lack of
literay
conversation, and would like to turn the tide.
SO PLEASE LET'S GET
OUT OF THE CHAT
ROOM AND BACK IN THE CLASSROOM OF THE MIND, please.
enthusiasm is one
thing but a ton of posts back and forth about spelling or
'oh i wish i read
that' and the like are better off back-channeled directly
among yourselves,
guys. i've been on the list for a year or two enjoying
immensely the
debates, discussions and all, and a friendly chat or two
included in a
more substantial post.
bill gargan: if
you are reading this could you please repost the FAQ? or
could some one
else?
we are falling by
the way side and hungry for some discourse.
i am not scolding
but i am getting somewhat exasperated.
REPOST ON
LITERARY TOPICS - PLEASE JOIN IN!!!
ok down off the
hogs for a while. in codyville (the imaginary place that
denver becomes in
jack's mind -- hey for that matter, does anyone who has
heard the ryko
tribute CD kicks, etc - enjoyed mike stipe's piece with the
sad little tinny
music to accompany 'our gang' and the connection to jack's
brown room in
pawtucketville when he played all his elaborate games and
kept meticulous
records of, newspapers etc? as he says hello to his mother
and goes upstairs
enters bedroom and tiny pool hall and bar and all his
gang in there? it
collapses so much together of JK boyhood recollections
AND BY THE WAY
this is not out
of line or subject:
on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:40 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: parallels between dr sax and voc
Mime-Version: 1.0
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on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:44 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: CODY AND THE GOOD DR SAX
Mime-Version: 1.0
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on page 6 of VOC
JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
space and time,
and would like to add that as he is having his visions of
cody, he is also
moving back to lowell from west haven, ct., wandering the
streets of NY
city, and evoking parallels of his childhood by description
of building in
denver reminiscent of dr sax country(aka lowell)
p6
"building is
ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
ornaments and
blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
enormous house of
dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
down black stairs
like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
underneath just a
few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
sleeping."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
Mime-Version: 1.0
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any one out there
listening to the JK tribute CD?
i have and would
love to talk with anyone here on nays and yays and
everything in
between.
personally, i am
really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row wine"--great
performance piece
and the kind of readings i aspire to.
favorite of the
day(s), however is the mike stipe reading of "my gang" it
is so DR SAX like
especially the parallels to the tiny poolhall in his
bedroom where he
played with great imagination solitary as a child. the
races and
baseball games with meticulously kept records and his newspaper
that carried the
sports news.
again, i'd really
like to hear of someone's impressions of those who have
been listening.
for those who haven't - and may like to join in on an
actual
discussion, it is put out by rykodisc, title: JK: kicks joy darkness
i know i'm crabby
but i want someone to play with.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:06:52 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: "where have all the scholars gone
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long time
passing," where have all the scholars gone?
i know its
summer, BUT
there is a
remarkable change over on the list, from young folks chatting up
a storm and maybe
a few posts to sink teeth into (or pomes or folks or
whatever)
hopefully the
scholars have gone to take a break with summer and 4th july
and all
that. and if lurking, come out and play
with me.
feeling
cantankerous
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:11:33 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy
darkness--random thoughts in reply
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> any one out
there listening to the JK tribute CD?
> i have and
would love to talk with anyone here on nays and yays and
> everything
in between.
> personally,
i am really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row wine"--great
> performance
piece and the kind of readings i aspire to.
> favorite of
the day(s), however is the mike stipe reading of "my gang" it
> is so DR SAX
like especially the parallels to the tiny poolhall in his
> bedroom
where he played with great imagination solitary as a child. the
> races and
baseball games with meticulously kept records and his newspaper
> that carried
the sports news.
> again, i'd
really like to hear of someone's impressions of those who have
> been
listening. for those who haven't - and may like to join in on an
> actual
discussion, it is put out by rykodisc, title: JK: kicks joy darkness
> i know i'm
crabby but i want someone to play with.
> mc
Marie:
Put on Bob Dylan,
Absolutely Sweet Marie. I believe it is on Blonde on
Blonde. He will play with you. And watch out for the little old
crones with
twisted pliers sent down from society to gouge out your
eyes. Personally I walk upside down and kick off
hand cuffs, but that
can be ruff.
I began visions
of cody against my will. I have an worn
worn copy and
did not want to
go back there. The beginning is Jack's
memory of every
little
observation he recorded in his mind. He
is taking us back to old
Denver. It jumps back to New York. It is complete, but not necessarily
"good"
writing. Why, he is more interested in
the exercise than the
art. But, it is laying a foundation. Easy to see why critics didn't
like Jack. Easy to see.
Me, I want to
discuss Pic. Why, because it is the only
published work I
was able to find
that I never read. So, let me know if
you wanta go.
Stealing rock n
roll lines as fast as I can remember them.
But, it's
allright now, ma,
Im only typing. But, I should go slow,
because love
can last longer
than shame, or can it. Maybe shame does
last longer
than love. Have you ever had an original thought. Doesn't it take more
than one person
to have a thought?
I ain't no
scholar, never hope to be one, but, if I saw one, I would
just let it
be. I have no words of wisdom. I have no thougths of
depth. I have no real drugs. I have no false drugs. I have no
identity that is
not false.
What sides are
there? We are in space and it has no
sides. Jack Handy
has deep
thoughts. Do you? I remember once my brother stole $5.00 out
of my bank. My father refused to believe that I had saved
$5.00.
Today, I won't
save money. Today, my brother is in
jail, for stealing
drugs out of a
pharmacy. Today, my father says he has
nothing to do
with either
one. I don't believe him. I think he is lying. It doesn't
matter what you
think, because it won't change what I think.
I didn't
say, you don't
matter, I said what you think about my father, me and my
brother doesn't
matter, because it can't change any of this.
If I could
go back in time,
I couldn't change it either. How do you
flush anger,
hurt etc out of
your system. How do you flush shame out
of your system.
Where is the
emotional toilet bowl of the universe.
Can you help me
find my way
there?
I can not
think. I can not write about
thinking. I can feel, but I
don't know what I
am feeling. I wonder what everyone else
is doing.
Everybody's gone
away, heading to LA. Me, I sat through a
rainy night
in GA before,
have you. Maybe I wasn't in a box car,
but I did have my
guitar.
So, someone else
left LA and took the Midnight train.
Someone else left
his home in GA
and went to San Francisco. Someone else
rode the rails
and highways
everywhere and wrote books about it.
Someone else hit 61
homeruns and
everyone hated him for doing it. But,
what kinda guy was
Babe Ruth. Was he kind to his wife? Was he considerate. Was he a
glutton? What made people love him so? What made Roger Maris a bad
guy? What would the press say about Babe Ruth
now. Would he wear Nike
shoes? How can one escape TV? Why can't we build it and they will
come? Why can't we ease his pain? Why can't he ease my pain?
Did you ever wish
someone you loved would die, just so they would be put
out of their
depression and you wouldn't have to hear about it anymore?
Folk rock, what
is that?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:25:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my gang'/VOC/DR
SAX:
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
> AND BY THE
WAY
> this is not
out of line or subject:
> on page 6 of
VOC JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i agree
> with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out of
> space and
time, which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
> p6
>
"building is ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i can
> see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
> ornaments
and blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
> enormous
house of dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and going
> down black
stairs like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of Time
> underneath
just a few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
> wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant is
>
sleeping."
Just read that
last night was was struck by the thread of Dr. Sax as I
had not read Dr.
Sax last time I read Cody. The haint his
haunting
all. Marie, where is your Dr. Sax? Is he climbing over the email you
receive. At night when you go to sleep, does he shrink
down to the size
of a toy and
dance on your keyboard. When you wake
up, does he climb
over the moinitor
and hide close to the picture tube? My
Dr Sax climbed
out of my heart
this morning. He showed me spot in my heart where I am
holding on to
sadness that is killing me every day. I
let go of it and
am falling
without a net. I don't care what gets
posted to the beat-l,
but you should
read Jean Ory's post. It wasn't high
school.
Can you go back
to high school? Growth is a hard thing. Sometimes the
list is not what
we want. A month ago, James said is was
doing fine.
Today you say
not. What about your mood. What about your doom. What
about your room.
Hum, well, I guess somethings go on within or without
us. As for me, I am going to puke this sadness
out of my body. I am
going to retake
my self from the ghosts of Dr. Sax. I have measured out
my life in emails
from the beat list. Humm, I wonder what
Eliot thinks
about that? Maybe he doesn't care.
Take it away, Dr.
Sax. Play on Train. Wail on Roland Kirk. Play on
Jazz man. Anybody but Kenny G!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:39:31 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> ok down off
the hogs for a while. in codyville (the imaginary place
>that
> denver
becomes in jack's mind -- hey for that matter, does anyone who
>has
> heard the
ryko tribute CD kicks, etc - enjoyed mike stipe's piece with
>the
> sad little
tinny music to accompany 'our gang' and the connection to
>jack's
> brown room
in pawtucketville when he played all his elaborate games and
> kept
meticulous records of, newspapers etc? as he says hello to his
>mother
> and goes
upstairs enters bedroom and tiny pool hall and bar and all his
> gang in
there? it collapses so much together of JK boyhood
>recollections
> AND BY THE WAY
> this is not
out of line or subject:
> on page 6 of
VOC JK blends his childhood with codys, (oh and btw, i
>agree
> with whoever
wrote that opening passages are 'visions' of cody and out
>of
> space and
time, which ok here comes the quote gets me back here:
> p6
>
"building is ancient red-1880 redbrick--three stories--over its roof i
>can
> see cosmic
italian oldfashioned 18 story office block building with
> ornaments
and blueprint lights inside that reminds me of eternity, the
> enormous house
of dusk where everybody is putting on their coats--and
>going
> down black
stairs like fire eescapes to eat supper in the dungeon of
>Time
> underneath
just a few feet over the snake--and DR SAX clambers over the
> wallsides as
night falls, with his suction cups-and the superintendant
>is
>
sleeping."
Sorry I can't
respond to the CD post, don't have any CDs or player for
them, but would
like to hear what others have to say. As
far as being in
Codyville goes, I
thought this thing really took off as you begin part 2,
starting with
Cody meeting Tom Watson in the pool hall.
I'm ready for
any recollections
anyone has of reading Neal's stuff to see how this
relates. Going from being homeless and living by
railroad tracks, to
having a dream
one night that if he read books, knew enough, he could
escape the lot of
his father. Walking up to the pool
player and saying
"Do you want
to learn philosophy with me?" All
of a sudden having a suit
and a mentor and
starting to fit in with the gang. Great
descriptions of
breasts scene, and voyeurs and throwing the football in
the middle of the
street, with teacher/poet watching, like life going on
all around
teachers trapped inside of themselves.
Lots of visions
joined with other visions, Lowell, NY, Denver, and San
Francisco all
positioned together in his memory banks.
Everything is
very romanticized
and gushy, like JK writes, a lot of it though tempered
with reality
about America, life and death, like finding the miscarriage
in grocery wrappers. One big thing is K, packing to go seek Cody,
like
his will to live
is somehow critically intertwined with Cody's sense of
life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:38:27 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: On the Road
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Did anyone notice
that Charles Kuralt, of ON THE ROAD fame died.
So did
Robert Mitchum
and Jimmy Stewart. I loved all three for
what they
brought. Charles tried to bring us the finer and small
moments of life
we missed. Robert told them all to stick it, if they
didn't like it.
James brought the
ordinary to life as a hero. What a week
to lose three
icons of our
society. Maybe noone else cares. But I do.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:52:10 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody/Ginsberg
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Hey--has anyone who
bought the new paperback version of Cody noticed that
in the back is
The Visions of the Great Rememberer by Allen Ginsberg,
page by page
comments on his take of VOC? Some of
these are very
interesting. Will have more to say about a couple of these
later.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:50:45 -0400
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
Dear Marie:
In response to
your plea for Serious Discussions of Literary Topics, I offer
this initial
contribution to the budding VOC cyberseminar:
I finished VOC
fairly recently, I read it over a long period with several
very long
interruptions. I don't recommend this,
if ever a book demands
concentration and
consistency, VOC does. The longer I read
it at a sitting,
the more I was
able to flow with its groove, an authentic-feeling
transcription of
JK's multilayered mental processes- memory, reflection,
commentary, pure
observation and automatic poetry. VOC
really captures, more
than any other
Kerouac book I have read so far, the feel from the inside of
the nascent Beat
Generation before it became a legend/trademark, magnified
and insidiously
stereotyped by the establishment, subversion subverted. This
is the real thing
for those who want to get past all that and see, feel and
hear Jack, Neal
& co. and their world, outside the status quo and fully
inside the
jugular vein of firsthand experience.
The verbatim
transcription of an actual taped conversation, while I found it
hard to follow
and stay with, is the heart both chronologically and
thematically of
the book. The reader can just as well
write around it as the
author (I'm
thinking of some of the VOC posts dealing with the different
perspectives -
JK's romanticised Neal, Neal's hard-experienced realism, the
reader's
impression and contributions). I'm being
called on to join the
family for a
last-hurrah holiday weekend swim. Let me
conclude for now with
a favorite among
many quotes that I think captures the feeling JK is always
trying to
describe and hold onto simultaneously here and in his other works,
the
"IT" of ON THE ROAD and the one long story of his life and work. It's
lengthy, but
can't be paraphrased or shortened without losing its momentum,
so here I go,
from pgs. 15-16 of my hardcover first edition, which I believe
collates with the
latest printing:
"No possible
way of avoiding enigmas. Like people in
cafeterias smile when
they're arriving
and sitting down at the table but when they're leaving, when
in unison their
chairs scrape back they pick up their coats and things with
glum faces (all
of them the same degree of semi-glumness which is a special
glumness that is
disappointed that the promise of the first-arriving smiling
moment didn't
come out or if it did it died after a short life)- and during
that short life
which has the same blind unconscious
quality as the orgasm,
everything is
happening to all their souls- this is the GO- the summation
pinnacle possible
in human relationships- lasts a second- the vibratory
message is on-
yet it's not so mystic either, it's love and sympathy in a
flash. Similarly we who make the mad night all the
way (four-way sex orgies,
three-day
conversations, uninterrupted transcontinental drives) have that
momentary
glumness that advertises the need for sleep- reminds us it is
possible to stop
all this- more so reminds us that the moment is ungraspable,
is already gone
and if we sleep we can call it up again mixing it with
unlimited other
beautiful combinations- shuffle the old file cards of the
soul in demented
hallucinated sleep- So the people in the cafeteria have that
look but only
until their hats and things are picked up, because the glumness
is also a signal
they send one another, a kind of a Goodnight Ladies" of
perhaps interior
heart politeness. What kind of friend would
grin openly in
the faces of his
friends when it's the time for glum coatpicking and bending
to leave? So it's a sign of "Now we're leaving
this table which had promised
so much- this is
our obsequy to the sad." The
glumness goes as soon as
someone says
something and they head for the door- laughing they fling back
echoes to the
scene of their human disaster- they go off down the street in
the new air
provided by the world.
Ah the mad hearts
of all of us."
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:07:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: CODY PART ONE
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i've just finished part one of VOC and have a
lot of shared passages
quoted before me
by mr stauffer and DC: but these are some of the things
that struck me as
i reread the opening of the novel: (mcgraw hill version)
my take on voc/dr
sax in already spoken for in previous posts, am moving
on.
here are a few
themes and passages which also struck my fancy:
p 8 in addition to the proustian thread
intro'd by DC there is also
hint of love of
thomas woolf and his own first novel in style (first novel
town and city) in
"the time and the river"
p12 one of first many many return trips to
lowell, "the truck rolled
on, bearing me
sadly back to the scenes of my boyhood" brings to mind all
the return trips
to memere ("aunt") in OTR)
12 as well as hints of mortality: "All
you do is head straight for the
grave, a face
just covers the skull for a while. stretch that skull-cover
and smile"
12 as well as ushering in ever present tone,
mood, subject, liet
motive of
sadness, loss, regret that permeates each of JK's books:
12 "ah me so sad that every year we
have to lose our october!"
24 "a sad park of autumn, late saturday
afternoon--leaves by now so
dry they make a
general rattle all over ...--a trash wirebasket is half
full of dry, dry
leaves--a pool of last night's rain lies in the gravell;
toninght it will
be cold, clear, winter coming and who will haunt the
deserted park
then?" (quoted in paragrah full of lively children and
mothers)
39 "i dont feel strong, the sorrows of
time and personality
41 (in letter to cody) "I am conscous
of my own personal tragedy....
"aware also of
the tragedy the loneliness of my
mother...
" I feel like
i've done wrong, to myself the most
wrong. i'm
throwing
away something
that i can't even find in the
incredible clutter of
my being but it's
going out with the refuse en masse, burieed in the middle
of it, every now
and then i get a glimpse. i get so sick thinking of the
years i
wasted...why did i waste my beatuiful mexcity on paranoias"
28: the catholic
church and its churches(note color schemes)
"now the window darkens to match
the great transformations without,
refracting them
inward to these kneelers, who can't stand ordinary glare of
life in musty
meditations and guilty anxieties-people com to curch for
guilt now--"
"the altar of st joseph at my
right is a symphony in browns"(most
of Dr Sax
has symphonies in brown both inside and out.)
29: i"i hear the chorus of prayers in a
rickety mumble repeating the
moans of an
accredited adjurer....--it can't be them make this ghostly
prayer--it's a
novena in the innards of the church itself, it is locked in
the stone and
realeased each night at this timeby the wizardly prayers of
some old
hooknosed ribbon clerk who acts like a divining rod withal to draw
the innate sound
out of the churchy-twosted chicago stone".
29 "(i had just noticed that the marble
squares in the floor are also
separated by
metal rims like in the MERIT food shop last night"-(care to
explicate that
one, DC?)
many years ago in a church just like
this but smaller, holier, more
venerated by
hearts, i came with hundreds of little *death-conscious* boys
of St Josephs
Parochical school(churxh always fill us with the knowledge of
the gloom and
horror of funerals even if we had learned to reconcile
ourselves to the
shame and sadness of confession, confirmation, execises,
et al"
(**mine)
33: leit motives of shrouds and shitting .. p
33 only one of several
passages..take it
for what it's worth. (or expound on excrement and death
y'all)
26: proust and memory (memory babe hisself):
"the, as Proust says god
bless him, 'inexpressibly delicious' sensation of of
this memory--for as
memories are
older theypre like wine rarer, till if you ind a real old
memory, one of
infancy, not an established often tasted one, but a brand
new one! it would
taste better than the napoleon brandy stendhal himself
must have stared
at...while shaving in front of those napoleonic cannons"
26: greon for green neon
35: dreams of cody: as opposed to
visions of cody and neal in other
novels, and
interesting in that cody comes off well in dreams but hint of
some jealousy or
impatience with neal in real life?
"oh that cody dream, last night he
was all attentive as he never
really or only
rarely is"
"cody, for first time, followed me
and let me do things"
"there sat cody and I -- i was
looking at table cloth-thinking 'i'm
tired, we do too
much, i must run away from cody to ever rest but now he's
folowing me i'll
never can do it"
"this was a dream last night. and
cody let others do the talking,
for once he was a
smiling and bemused listener"
27: peak experience "that so seldom
experience of seeing my whole
life's richness
swimming in a palpable mothlike cloud, a cloud i can really
see and which i
think is elfin due to my celtic
blood-coming only in
moments of
*complete inspiration*... in my life number them probably below
five--at least on
this level"(THE ELFS ARE AT IT AGAIN YOU GUYS!!!)
i also found
interesting the unconscious foreshadowing of the beats and
their next
generation of readers in the passages dealing with genet
also, struck by
prejudices in the opening book, which took stereotyped pot
shots at
"jews negros fags "
________
awful lot of
dulouz themes embedded in this short piece of writing, and
many differing
thoughts/feelings re: cassady/cody
any and all
comments welcome before moving to part 2
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:10:54 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Cody
well finally got
Cody yesterday, beginning seems to me to be
Jack's version
of Leopold
Bloom's walk to the church for Paddy Dignam's funeral.... mind
open, seeing
everything, memories evoked by this person, event, place....
i love the
atmosphere JK creates here, much more personal and misty than
Joyce's... definitely gives the feel of a person whose
conciousness has a
constant shadow
and a longing that won't leave him in peace.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:25:53 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilhelm Reich
Jean,
couldn't agree
with you more... am reading Jung's Aion now and definitely have
the sense the JK
read him and incorporated some of his thoughts....
don't know that i
would call the writers/artists who use/used alcohol/drugs
and wrote,
artificial... we're all a little
tortured and for some, repression
of the
ego/emotions/mind are/were so great that the only way to let the self
(in Jung's
definition) override the ego and express itself is/was to take the
ego off guard
chemically... whether it be alcohol, lots of wild sex, lack of
food, drugs, lack
of sleep. and certainly when JK was
writing, the american
social atmosphere
was particularly oppressive/repressive, not too mention the
things in JK's
own life that created his personal terrors.
i don't advocate
becoming an
alcholic in order to write, but who's to say that that writing is
any less real
than someone who is a near-Boddhisatva?
just a different
state... all is
One, One is all.
paix,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Jean ORY
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 5:54 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Wilhelm Reich
Orgone is known
in Eastern tradition since thousands years
It is called in
Hinduist tradition: Prana - (Panayama)
In Chinese
tradition: Chi (Tai CHI Chuan - Acupuncture)
In Japanese
tradition: Ki (Ai KI Do)
Recommended
lecture:
Yoga - by T.K.V. Desikachar - University Press of
America
Clear Light of
Bliss - by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - Snow Lion Publication -
Reich was put in
jail.
Best way to learn
about him is to read his books.
The more famous
is "Function of the orgasm"
True that Wilhelm
Reich had a great influence on the hipster culture,
but don't forget
about C.G. Jung whose forewords were in the I Ching, in
the Secret of the
Golden Flower, in the Tibetan Book of the Great
Liberation, in
the Tibetan of the Dead, in Tibetan yoga and Secret
Doctrines, I am
not sure but I think that Jung wrote forewords for some
Zen books too.
Jung, Richard
Wilhelm (the translator of the I King), Hermann Hesse
(Siddharta) were
good friends, I see them as one of the many grand
fathers and the
uncles of the beats.
Just an idea
about an old subject on the list: alcohol and Jack Kerouac.
May be there was
too, somewhere in his unconscious the traditional
"poete
maudit" (Damned Poet) programing.
Enlightened, visionary but
destroyed by the
intensity of his own vision and by the misunderstanding
of his
politically correct contemporaries.
Little bit like
Antonin Artaud who didn't have such friends as Ginsberg
and Bill
Burroughs to understand him and to stretch out a friendly hand
to him.
May be there are
two ways to induce the poetic mood:
The first is by
the "dereglement de tous les sens": creating
artificially by
drugs, bad food, lack of sleep, strong emotions, a
disordered state
of the senses almost near the death experience to
produce the
vision experience of the absolute, like Gerard de Nerval,
Rimbaud, Artaud, Rene
Daumal did.
The second by the
harmonious adjusting of the senses through
meditation. Like the great Zen or Taoist poets or like
Allen Ginsberg
who had practiced
meditative retreats under the guidance of Chogyam
Trungpa and wrote
poems from the peaceful state of mind produced.
The reason why
Wihelm Reich was persecuted was because his studies on
sexuality and
because his commentaries on the political use of the
repression of the
sexual impulse.
There is a
difference beween repression and control.
It is still true:
People don't even notice on TV someone killing
somebody else,
but people would freak out if they were seeing on TV two
consenting adults
making love.
That's one of
many symptoms of the mental sickness of most of the main
cultures of the
world.
At that point,
visions and poets are indispensable to survive.
Jean
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: i come in peace (codyville)
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to all who took
my ranting too personally, i'm really not a junkyard dawg.
just wanted to
get folks to readin and talking and debating.
cheers to mr.
kirby who has begun to read VOC albeit reluctantly. it's
always more fun
if more play.
(hey DC: we can
listen to the CD when we get to gether next.)
i'm just now
heading into part 2, may take awhile as i still have my HST
readings as well;
i'll save yr post and get to it after reading part 2
in the meantime,
i really loved what you had to say down below
One big thing is
K, packing to go seek Cody, like
his will to live
is somehow critically intertwined with Cody's sense of
life.
_____
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:13 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Road
In-Reply-To: <33BFBBF3.D7655CBC@scsn.net>
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no, i've been out
of touch with the media. but yes, i do care. i know i am
at an age where
most of my heros of humanity music innerspace and
literature are
dying. thanks, mr kirby
mc
>Did anyone
notice that Charles Kuralt, of ON THE ROAD fame died. So did
>Robert
Mitchum and Jimmy Stewart. I loved all
three for what they
>brought. Charles tried to bring us the finer and small
moments of life
>we
missed. Robert told them all to stick
it, if they didn't like it.
>James brought
the ordinary to life as a hero. What a
week to lose three
>icons of our
society. Maybe noone else cares. But I do.
>
>Peace,
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
In-Reply-To:
<970706115044_-1527787300@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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pleased to make
yer acquaintance, arthur nusbaum:
this is just
wonderful writing and yes, i did start ranting a bit didn't i?
its pretty out of
character for me but i find the occasional ranting good
for my soul, AND
maybe i wouldnt have gotten such a piece of careful
reading and explicating
such as yours. thanks so much. hope your
celebration is
all you want it to be.
mc
>Dear Marie:
>
>In response
to your plea for Serious Discussions of Literary Topics, I offer
>this initial
contribution to the budding VOC cyberseminar:
>
>I finished
VOC fairly recently, I read it over a long period with several
>very long
interruptions. I don't recommend this,
if ever a book demands
>concentration
and consistency, VOC does. The longer I
read it at a sitting,
>the more I
was able to flow with its groove, an authentic-feeling
>transcription
of JK's multilayered mental processes- memory, reflection,
>commentary,
pure observation and automatic poetry.
VOC really captures, more
>than any
other Kerouac book I have read so far, the feel from the inside of
>the nascent
Beat Generation before it became a legend/trademark, magnified
>and
insidiously stereotyped by the establishment, subversion subverted. This
>is the real
thing for those who want to get past all that and see, feel and
>hear Jack,
Neal & co. and their world, outside the status quo and fully
>inside the
jugular vein of firsthand experience.
>
>The verbatim
transcription of an actual taped conversation, while I found it
>hard to
follow and stay with, is the heart both chronologically and
>thematically
of the book. The reader can just as well
write around it as the
>author (I'm
thinking of some of the VOC posts dealing with the different
>perspectives
- JK's romanticised Neal, Neal's hard-experienced realism, the
>reader's
impression and contributions). I'm being
called on to join the
>family for a
last-hurrah holiday weekend swim. Let me
conclude for now with
>a favorite
among many quotes that I think captures the feeling JK is always
>trying to
describe and hold onto simultaneously here and in his other works,
>the
"IT" of ON THE ROAD and the one long story of his life and work. It's
>lengthy, but
can't be paraphrased or shortened without losing its momentum,
>so here I go,
from pgs. 15-16 of my hardcover first edition, which I believe
>collates with
the latest printing:
>
>"No
possible way of avoiding enigmas. Like
people in cafeterias smile when
>they're
arriving and sitting down at the table but when they're leaving, when
>in unison
their chairs scrape back they pick up their coats and things with
>glum faces
(all of them the same degree of semi-glumness which is a special
>glumness that
is disappointed that the promise of the first-arriving smiling
>moment didn't
come out or if it did it died after a short life)- and during
>that short
life which has the same blind
unconscious quality as the orgasm,
>everything is
happening to all their souls- this is the GO- the summation
>pinnacle
possible in human relationships- lasts a second- the vibratory
>message is
on- yet it's not so mystic either, it's love and sympathy in a
>flash. Similarly we who make the mad night all the
way (four-way sex orgies,
>three-day
conversations, uninterrupted transcontinental drives) have that
>momentary
glumness that advertises the need for sleep- reminds us it is
>possible to
stop all this- more so reminds us that the moment is ungraspable,
>is already
gone and if we sleep we can call it up again mixing it with
>unlimited
other beautiful combinations- shuffle the old file cards of the
>soul in
demented hallucinated sleep- So the people in the cafeteria have that
>look but only
until their hats and things are picked up, because the glumness
>is also a
signal they send one another, a kind of a Goodnight Ladies" of
>perhaps
interior heart politeness. What kind of
friend would grin openly in
>the faces of
his friends when it's the time for glum coatpicking and bending
>to
leave? So it's a sign of "Now we're
leaving this table which had promised
>so much- this
is our obsequy to the sad." The
glumness goes as soon as
>someone says
something and they head for the door- laughing they fling back
>echoes to the
scene of their human disaster- they go off down the street in
>the new air
provided by the world.
>Ah the mad
hearts of all of us."
>
>Arthur S.
Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:52:50 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody/Ginsberg
DC,
Yes i did and am
very anxious to read it, but thought i'd wait til i'd
finished Cody...
let me know if you think it should be read parallel. i have
pulled out
Ulysses for comparisons, although it's damned hard to find stuff
quickly with the
book being so long...
paix,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 1997 11:52 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Cody/Ginsberg
Hey--has anyone
who bought the new paperback version of Cody noticed that
in the back is
The Visions of the Great Rememberer by Allen Ginsberg,
page by page
comments on his take of VOC? Some of
these are very
interesting. Will have more to say about a couple of these
later.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:22:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Cody
btw, maybe this
is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
neal as a sort of
mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:56:13 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: shopping carts & destruction...
just saw the new
U2 video for "Last Day on Earth" with WSB pushing his
shopping cart around....I
wonder how many folks know who he is; the very
end of the video
freezes on his face. Anyone's
impressions? Esp. you
Burroughs lovers
out there....
Diane. (H)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:50:00 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody/Ginsberg
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>Sherri wrote:
>
> Yes i did
and am very anxious to read it, but thought i'd wait til i'd
> finished
Cody... let me know if you think it should be read parallel.
>i have
> pulled out
Ulysses for comparisons, although it's damned hard to find
>stuff
> quickly with
the book being so long...
>
If you want my
advice, it is yes, read Ginsberg's observations as you
Read VOC, so you
can think about it as you go along, rather than as an
addendum.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:30:33 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Bentz:
Compare this
chronology:
"I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons"
-T.S. Eliot,
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"I have seen
life measured out in eyedroppers of morphine solution- I have
experienced the
agonizing deprivation of junk sickness, and the pleasure of
relief when
junk-thirsty cells drank from the needle."
-William S.
Burroughs, "Junky", author's introduction
"I have
measured out my life in emails from the beat list."
-R. Bentz Kirby,
"97-07-06 11:37:45 EDT"
I really
appreciate your jazz commentary at the end of your message. As a
devotee of the
Giants of the golden age ('40's-'60's) of bebop and beyond, I
can't believe the
utter pap that passes for "jazz" by the cowed, cretinized
popular culture
of today- the immaculately coiffed, substantially vacuous
Kenny G
culture. Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Monk,
Mingus, Dolphy, Ayler,
McLean,
Armstrong, Ellington (the latter 2 preceding the others but forming
the foundation
for them) are among those in my pantheon.
Coltrane, Davis,
Parker and Monk
(like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke on the Beatific
Mt. Rushmore) are
at the very top for me. I have a very
extensive
collection,
beginning with LPs and mostly in the subsequent CD strata, of
these Masters and
others. Of the 4, I had the privelege of
seeing only Davis
during his last
'80's incarnation. I missed the boat on
the others, born and
enlightened too
late. But about 5 years ago, I did have
a Coltrane
experience- I saw
a band that featured his son Ravi ( as well as Elvin Jones,
the great drummer
of the legendary JC quartet), whom I briefly met after the
set. He closely resembled his father, it was a
rather spooky experience and
I felt somewhat
sorry for him having to pursue his path in the shadow of such
an immortal
Giant. He was good as I recall and
probably has gotten better (I
think he was only
in his mid-20's when I met him), but how can he ever get
out from under
that shadow? I admire him for doing what
he must do
regardless of the
circumstances. What is your favorite
Coltrane item or
album? I would hate to have to answer that question,
so I shouldn't be
asking it, should
I?
I was aware of,
and saddened by, the deaths of Robert Mitchum, James Stewart
and Charles
Kurault, in such quick succession. Have
you seen RM in NIGHT OF
THE HUNTER? It's one of the great stylish villian roles,
right up there with
Richard Widmark's
Tommy Yudo in KISS OF DEATH and Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth
in BLUE
VELVET. And I recently saw the newly
restored version of VERTIGO on
the big screen at
a grand old theatre here in Ann Arbor, a breathtaking
experience with
an unforgettable, subtly complex and disturbing performance
by JS. Speaking of the cowed, cretinized popular
culture referred to above,
you failed to
mention the death, by his own hand, of Brian Keith, separated
at birth from
Robin Williams and my accountant, who looks like both of them
combined, and with
some Ted Kennedy thrown in for outline.
As Vietnam and
the upheavals of
the '60's raged, Uncle Bill blew off Buffy, Jody and Sissy
with his gruff,
lethargic "go ask Mr. French" for 7 straight seasons. It
took that many
years for Kerouac to get ON THE ROAD published!
This is
shameful, what
did BK ever do to me? He was probably a
very nice guy
following his
path and making a living, and I never would have wished such a
terrifying and
despairing end for him.
Well, I have
written again as you suggested after not hearing from you after
our brief
exchange a little while back ( you toggled me to get on my New
Urbanist soapbox
as I recall). This is a great and
increasingly obsessive
list to be on,
I'm getting to know the themes and MO's of the regulars,
separating the
Beat Wheat from the Chatter Chaff. Until
very recently, my
own
correspondence was one-on-one, such as my dispatches to you. But I've
finally gone
public and joined in on the VOC forum in direct response to
Marie Countryman
and to the List at large.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:33:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> 29 "(i had just noticed that the marble
squares in the floor are
>also
separated by metal rims like in the MERIT food shop last
>night"-(care
to
> explicate
that one, DC?)
You know, that
jumped out at me too when I read it, same floor as MERIT
FOOD SHOP, pg.
26, "The floor is all shades of brown and yellow 'pebbled'
marble with
little thin metal lines separating the various sections;"
Shall we strip it
to the surface level and surmise that the same workmen
were making
similar floors everywhere, St. Patrick's Cathedral and MERIT
FOOD SHOP, a
conspiracy of NY construction workers, or do we make a giant
leap beyond
construction to the pebbled marble of the mind, and thoughts,
memories, built,
pebbled on top of one another separated,or grouped
together, by thin
metal lines of reality, metal rims, that cut through
the consciousness
of all of us, like steel metal artifacts piercing into
the past?
>take it for
what it's worth. (or expound on excrement and death
> y'all)
I still like the
shit thing on pg. 26
"...we are
nothing but shits and we'll all die and eat shit in graves..."
but hey, I'm not
above taking it back to creation from excrement and
gaining
immortality through eating the body in death, gaining knowledge,
shit fertilizes,
doesn't it?
> moments of
*complete inspiration*... in my life number them probably
>below
> five--at
least on this level"(THE ELFS ARE AT IT AGAIN YOU GUYS!!!)
Makes me think we
should be looking for his five epiphanies in these
visions.
One more thing
related to part I--pg. 32-33, beginning with "She breaks
my heart just
like X..." and ending with "Everything belongs to me
because I am
poor."
Just to
intersperse here what AG says about this section:
"Jack's
candid observation of inner consciousness manifested in solitude,
the girl eating
in the cafeteria, is a complete world satori.
Here as
distinct from his
critic Podhoretz Kerouac is present in the world
solitary musing
and observing actual event in the cafeteria 'mind clamped
down on objects'
completely anonymous, in a single universe of perception
with no mental
maneuvers or self-conscious manipulation of any reader's
mind (he writing
for no reader but his own intelligent self)--completely
here, watching
the world--"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:03:06 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody, Part II
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Some more
thoughts on Part II:
his desire to to
create a body of work, like Joyce, Proust, others...
pg. 93
"And now to
make up for the botch of my days I think I can create a great
universe and of
course I can"
pg. 94
"the trouble
with life it that it has its own laws and controls the souls
of men without
regard for their least wish, and this is slavery."
pg. 96
"What kind
of journey is the life of a human being that it has a
beginning and not
end?--and that it gets worse and worse and darker all
the time till
time disappears."
K's joy for life
and living is constantly juxtapositioned agained a real
sorrow, sadness
about America and a human's inability to get out from
under the load
fate has seemed to have dumped on him.
similar thing on
page 103
"...and so
while I struggle in the dark with the enormity of my soul,
trying
desperately to be a great rememberer redeeming life from
darkness.."
Stuff about his
purpose in writing:
Pg. 98 "Now
what I'm going to do is this--think things over one by one,
blowing on the
visions of them and also excitedly discussing them as if
with friends as I
did last night joyously drunk in the West End (see
actually I'm not
old and sick at all but the maddest liver in the world
right now as well
as the best watcher and that's no sneezing thing."
Pg. 99
"I'm going
to talk about these things with guys but the main thing I
suppose will be
this lifelong monologue which is begun in my
mind--lifelong
complete contemplation..."
"Now events
of this moment are so mad that of course I can't keep up but
worse they're as
though they were fond memories that from my peaceful
hacienda of
Proust-bed I was trying to recall in toto but couldn't becaus
like the real
world so vast, so delugingly vast, I wish God had made me
vaster myself--I
wish I had ten personalities, one hundred golden brains,
far more ports
than there are ports, more energy than, the river, but I
must struggle to
live it all in footm and in these little crepesole
shoes, ALL of it,
or give up completely."
One other thing,
after K starts packing for going to meet Cody, the
vision then
spreads out into other times (moments) of leaving, like for
merchant marine,
tons of stuff on the ship SS Pres. Adams, and then
shifting to brief
spurts of memories about crossing country as in OTR,
wanting to catch
the ship, but getting there too late. I
would think
this part would
be incredibly hard to follow for anyone who had not read
OTR.
I'm getting read
to enter part III, starting with the taped conversation.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:11:15 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Denise Levertov.
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PEOPLE AT
NIGHT by Denise LEVERTOV
A night that cuts
between you and you
and you and you
and you
and me : jostles
us apart, a man elbowing
through a
crowd. We won't
look for each other, either-
wander off, each
alone, not looking
in the slow
crowd. Among sideshows
under movie signs,
pictures made of a million
lights,
giants that move and again move
again, above a cloud of thick
smells,
franks, roasted nutmeats-
Or going up to
some apartment, yours
or yours, finding
someone sitting
in the dark:
who is it really?
So you switch the
light on to see:
you know the name but
who is it ?
But you won't see.
The fluorescent
light flickers sullenly, a
pause. But you
command. It grabs
each face and
holds it up
by the hair for
you, mask after mask.
You and
you and I repeat
gestures that make do when
speech
has failed and talk
and talk, laughing, saying
'I', and 'I',
meaning
'Anybody'.
No one.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:23:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute/mike stipe&'my
gang'/VOC/DR SAX:
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Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
>
>Let me
conclude now with a favorite among many quotes that I think
>captures the
feeling JK is always
> trying to
describe and hold onto simultaneously here and in his other
>works,
> the
"IT" of ON THE ROAD and the one long story of his life and work.
Arthur,
Thanks for post
which added a lot to the discussion, I hope you'll
continue to be
vocal from now on. I agree, the long
quote on page 15-16
has much to say
about Kerouac's understanding of these moments of
(epiphany?),
which I snipped much here for brevity, "This is the GO--the
summation pinnacle
possible in human relationships--lasts a
second--...the
moment is ungraspable, is already gone..."
And with
sleeping on it,
the dream adds different connotations out of time, I am
starting to see
VOC as his way to take the moments out of On the Road,
and re-tell them,
with more and more unconscious, out of time material,
and adding the
sleep or unconscious dimension to everything.
It is hard,
however,
sometimes to make the leaps from very descriptive "I am here now
writing this
down," to the longer cloudier visionary-type moments.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:26:09 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Arthur,
thanks for such
an intelligent post... Kenny G makes my
skin crawl... give me
Coltrane any day.
so far, my favorite album is Blue Train, the title track in
particular -
perfect music for reading the beats.
what's happened
to all that heady jazz of the 40's to early 60's... is it
being stomped out
by the almighty $$ catering to the masses, or is it just
barely there
because social/cultural conditions have changed? there is a
certain amount of
it to be found in SF; otherwise it's mostly Latin jazz
(which i
thoroughly enjoy) or this new age crap that they call lite jazz... i
guess they mean
it's less filling for the mind.
and Frank
Booth... now there's a guy you can truly be scared of. loved that
flick and all
that dark satire... Willem Dafoe in Wild
at Heart comes to mind
too...
anyway, glad you
"went public".
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Arthur Nusbaum
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 1:30 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Bentz:
Compare this
chronology:
"I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons"
-T.S. Eliot,
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"I have seen
life measured out in eyedroppers of morphine solution- I have
experienced the
agonizing deprivation of junk sickness, and the pleasure of
relief when
junk-thirsty cells drank from the needle."
-William S.
Burroughs, "Junky", author's introduction
"I have
measured out my life in emails from the beat list."
-R. Bentz Kirby,
"97-07-06 11:37:45 EDT"
I really
appreciate your jazz commentary at the end of your message. As a
devotee of the
Giants of the golden age ('40's-'60's) of bebop and beyond, I
can't believe the
utter pap that passes for "jazz" by the cowed, cretinized
popular culture
of today- the immaculately coiffed, substantially vacuous
Kenny G
culture. Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Monk,
Mingus, Dolphy, Ayler,
McLean,
Armstrong, Ellington (the latter 2 preceding the others but forming
the foundation
for them) are among those in my pantheon.
Coltrane, Davis,
Parker and Monk
(like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke on the Beatific
Mt. Rushmore) are
at the very top for me. I have a very
extensive
collection,
beginning with LPs and mostly in the subsequent CD strata, of
these Masters and
others. Of the 4, I had the privelege of
seeing only Davis
during his last
'80's incarnation. I missed the boat on
the others, born and
enlightened too
late. But about 5 years ago, I did have
a Coltrane
experience- I saw
a band that featured his son Ravi ( as well as Elvin Jones,
the great drummer
of the legendary JC quartet), whom I briefly met after the
set. He closely resembled his father, it was a
rather spooky experience and
I felt somewhat
sorry for him having to pursue his path in the shadow of such
an immortal
Giant. He was good as I recall and
probably has gotten better (I
think he was only
in his mid-20's when I met him), but how can he ever get
out from under
that shadow? I admire him for doing what
he must do
regardless of the
circumstances. What is your favorite
Coltrane item or
album? I would hate to have to answer that question,
so I shouldn't be
asking it, should
I?
I was aware of,
and saddened by, the deaths of Robert Mitchum, James Stewart
and Charles
Kurault, in such quick succession. Have
you seen RM in NIGHT OF
THE HUNTER? It's one of the great stylish villian roles,
right up there with
Richard Widmark's
Tommy Yudo in KISS OF DEATH and Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth
in BLUE
VELVET. And I recently saw the newly
restored version of VERTIGO on
the big screen at
a grand old theatre here in Ann Arbor, a breathtaking
experience with
an unforgettable, subtly complex and disturbing performance
by JS. Speaking of the cowed, cretinized popular
culture referred to above,
you failed to
mention the death, by his own hand, of Brian Keith, separated
at birth from
Robin Williams and my accountant, who looks like both of them
combined, and
with some Ted Kennedy thrown in for outline.
As Vietnam and
the upheavals of
the '60's raged, Uncle Bill blew off Buffy, Jody and Sissy
with his gruff,
lethargic "go ask Mr. French" for 7 straight seasons. It
took that many
years for Kerouac to get ON THE ROAD published!
This is
shameful, what
did BK ever do to me? He was probably a
very nice guy
following his
path and making a living, and I never would have wished such a
terrifying and
despairing end for him.
Well, I have
written again as you suggested after not hearing from you after
our brief
exchange a little while back ( you toggled me to get on my New
Urbanist soapbox
as I recall). This is a great and
increasingly obsessive
list to be on,
I'm getting to know the themes and MO's of the regulars,
separating the
Beat Wheat from the Chatter Chaff. Until
very recently, my
own
correspondence was one-on-one, such as my dispatches to you. But I've
finally gone
public and joined in on the VOC forum in direct response to
Marie Countryman
and to the List at large.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:38:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: JK/OTR/CODY
In-Reply-To: <33BF8E54.37AE@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DC wrote, among
other things
(snip)
I am
starting to see
VOC as his way to take the moments out of On the Road,
and re-tell them,
with more and more unconscious, out of time material,
and adding the
sleep or unconscious dimension to everything.
It is hard,
however,
sometimes to make the leaps from very descriptive "I am here now
writing this
down," to the longer cloudier visionary-type moments.
_____________
yes yes yes. also
the difference in the physical realm : for me OTR is like
a silverery
skipping rock, which whooosssshhhesss
across the lake
gracefully
touching down from peaks to get momentum back up and down and up
and down, always
at a destination and yet moving even in head to new one-
as well as
fast pace more action and etc.
and, in
comparision, VOC is like rowing in an old beat rowboar out to the
middle of that
very same lake, and at the same site as allof those touched
by the
pebble in OTR, dropping overboard a
large rock and it sinks all the
way to the bottom
and then some stirring up the bottom and investigating
each of those
skips.
or sumpin like
that.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:37:56 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: proletariat #3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
shopping
bags
come
back
home
killing
me!
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:51:51 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Another Beat Bites the Dust
I definately
think that Charles Kuralt was a Beat, in the best and sweetest
sense. I morn his passing.
I believe the
core of "beat" was not sex, drugs and rock 'n jazz, though I
can appreciate
the positive qualities of those activities, to say the least.
Kuralt was about
exploration and finding joy in simple things, not so simple
but unrecognized
people and the beauty that is everywhere that we frequently
miss in the
day-to-day hubub of our lives - things like the Daisy in the
railroad yard
that AG wrote a poem about, the apple pie of the midwest in On
The Road, and the
exceptional "ordinary" prople profiled by Charles Kuralt
Beat Indeed!
It is not well
known that Kuralt was a friend and sometimes mentor to Dr.
Hunter S.
Thompson and was also a lifelong Greenwhich Villager (and rural
North
Carolina). His passing leaves no one on
the media who did what he did
- chasing the
good in ordinary folks instead of scandel and gossip.
Take time to
smell the roses today, and remember Charles Kuralt.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:05:59 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Comments: To:
SSASN@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
>
> Bentz:
>
> Compare this
chronology:
>
> "I have
measured out my life with coffee spoons"
> -T.S. Eliot,
"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
>
> "I have
seen life measured out in eyedroppers of morphine solution- I have
> experienced
the agonizing deprivation of junk sickness, and the pleasure of
> relief when
junk-thirsty cells drank from the needle."
> -William S.
Burroughs, "Junky", author's introduction
>
> "I have
measured out my life in emails from the beat list."
> -R. Bentz
Kirby, "97-07-06 11:37:45 EDT"
>
> I really
appreciate your jazz commentary at the end of your message. As a
> devotee of
the Giants of the golden age ('40's-'60's) of bebop and beyond, I
> can't believe
the utter pap that passes for "jazz" by the cowed, cretinized
> popular
culture of today- the immaculately coiffed, substantially vacuous
> Kenny G
culture. Coltrane, Davis, Parker, Monk,
Mingus, Dolphy, Ayler,
> McLean,
Armstrong, Ellington (the latter 2 preceding the others but forming
> the
foundation for them) are among those in my pantheon. Coltrane, Davis,
> Parker and
Monk (like Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke on the Beatific
> Mt.
Rushmore) are at the very top for me. I
have a very extensive
> collection,
beginning with LPs and mostly in the subsequent CD strata, of
> these
Masters and others. Of the 4, I had the
privelege of seeing only Davis
> during his
last '80's incarnation. I missed the
boat on the others, born and
> enlightened
too late. But about 5 years ago, I did
have a Coltrane
> experience-
I saw a band that featured his son Ravi ( as well as Elvin Jones,
> the great
drummer of the legendary JC quartet), whom I briefly met after the
> set. He closely resembled his father, it was a
rather spooky experience and
> I felt
somewhat sorry for him having to pursue his path in the shadow of such
> an immortal
Giant. He was good as I recall and
probably has gotten better (I
> think he was
only in his mid-20's when I met him), but how can he ever get
> out from
under that shadow? I admire him for
doing what he must do
> regardless
of the circumstances. What is your
favorite Coltrane item or
> album? I would hate to have to answer that question,
so I shouldn't be
> asking it,
should I?
>
> I was aware
of, and saddened by, the deaths of Robert Mitchum, James Stewart
> and Charles
Kurault, in such quick succession. Have
you seen RM in NIGHT OF
> THE
HUNTER? It's one of the great stylish
villian roles, right up there with
> Richard
Widmark's Tommy Yudo in KISS OF DEATH and Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth
> in BLUE
VELVET. And I recently saw the newly
restored version of VERTIGO on
> the big
screen at a grand old theatre here in Ann Arbor, a breathtaking
> experience
with an unforgettable, subtly complex and disturbing performance
> by JS. Speaking of the cowed, cretinized popular
culture referred to above,
> you failed
to mention the death, by his own hand, of Brian Keith, separated
> at birth
from Robin Williams and my accountant, who looks like both of them
> combined,
and with some Ted Kennedy thrown in for outline. As Vietnam and
> the
upheavals of the '60's raged, Uncle Bill blew off Buffy, Jody and Sissy
> with his
gruff, lethargic "go ask Mr. French" for 7 straight seasons. It
> took that
many years for Kerouac to get ON THE ROAD published! This is
> shameful,
what did BK ever do to me? He was
probably a very nice guy
> following
his path and making a living, and I never would have wished such a
> terrifying
and despairing end for him.
>
> Well, I have
written again as you suggested after not hearing from you after
> our brief
exchange a little while back ( you toggled me to get on my New
> Urbanist
soapbox as I recall). This is a great
and increasingly obsessive
> list to be
on, I'm getting to know the themes and MO's of the regulars,
> separating
the Beat Wheat from the Chatter Chaff.
Until very recently, my
> own
correspondence was one-on-one, such as my dispatches to you. But I've
> finally gone
public and joined in on the VOC forum in direct response to
> Marie
Countryman and to the List at large.
>
> Regards,
>
> Arthur S.
Nusbaum
Arthur:
When you delurk
you do not mess around. I always assumed Dr. Sax was
named that by
Jack for the jazz sax players who can haunt you like a
mystery in your
brain. What was the man who just quit
playing and went
out every night
and played on the Brooklyn bridge? There
is something
about the sax
that is lost in today's music. Whether
you like them or
not, Train and
others were the boss, and noone has picked up the
challenge. But I mean, lock Kenny G and Yanni in a room
together and
see what
happens. Maybe they could force each
other to play!!!!
Glad to help
someone delurk, but wow, what a powerful beginning today.
I love this
list! It is the only thing I know of on
the internet that
requires thought.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:18:45 -0500
Reply-To: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: "The Playful Poets"
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The Playful Poets
by William H.
Rose, III
Kerouac ruck-sack
back-pack Buddha-Jack beat-back run-on James Joyce firs=
t-choice
odd-voice
free-fall flowing, you know, come on. (In cosmic slums Jack wro=
te the bums
and beat upon his
clever-kicked and hobo drums in search of wide-eyed lov=
ers who
would hum.) On
the road his story told in non-stop verse so nudely bold. =
Kicks and
chicks and
movin=92 on; swimmin=92 in women and carryin=92 on. Kerouac ro=
ad-knack
Dharma-pack
mystic poet of our past.
Dharma lion,
love-crazed cryin=92, house of Zion, outlived dyin=92. Allen=
Ginsberg phallic-
rimsword, fault
gestalt Whitman Walt, no man, everyman, woman, man! Kaddi=
sh,
Kaddish, Kaddish,
rave and reel, the secret hero of the =93Howl=94 was Ne=
al. =93The
fastest
man alive=94 some
say when pryed, others say he lived the way he died. Ke=
n Kessy testing
LSD the bus
=93Furthur=94 on a spree in colors all a-glow; Neal=92s drivi=
n=92, the Dead
are
thrivin=92 in the
Merry Prankster Show. Further, Furthur, further, off to=
the extreme;
deeper, steeper,
deeper at the edge of my beat-dream. Flower-power acid-t=
ower
peace-hour, free;
The Electric-Koolaid-Acid-Test and 1963.
Generation,
inspiration, imagination, confirmation; When did I find time =
for this beat
emancipation?
J.S. Bach turned
waltz to rock and Hendrix played it loud; The Grateful D=
ead they spun
some heads but
Mozart stunned the crowds (at only 4!). Courtney Love and =
Kurt Cobain,
Perry Farrell and
Alice In Chains. Bob Dylan was distillin=92 the essence=
of folk rock while
Iggy Popp the
stage he hopped naked all a-swingin=92-bopped. Carol King, =
Prince, and
Queen, royalty
the music scene. And Bo and Bird without a word the sweete=
st sounds
I=92ve ever
heard. Tom Waits impatiently I=92ve found for pasties, g-stri=
ngs, beer and
blue
sound.
Hip-hop (give it
away now), Punk Rock (in your face, wow!), Raggae (Rasta=
fari, man),
Techno (music in
a can), Ragtime (Joplin=92s slammin=92 keys), The Blues =
(B.B.=92s on his
knees), Classic
(music for the head), Cool Jazz (from the heart is fed), =
Rock =91N Roll
(the
time has come),
Slow Souls (melts them into one).
Thomas Stearns
(T.S.) Eliot cosmic burn poetic delicate free-verse letter=
s Wasteland
empty it. e.e.
cummings, he be cunning, words so stunning, see me coming,=
poetry with
wit. Salvador
Dali Llama, Dharma blues and bums with news, William Shakes=
peare did
you all hear
Elvis has blue shoes (watch your step now!). Buddha, Christ,=
and Allah
praises; Genghis,
Vlad, and Hitler crazes, ashes death to dust. Lord Byro=
n I=92m admirin=92,
Socrates
philosophies please, and Charlemagne made quite a name while Nea=
l Young
slept in rust.
Robert Frost was never lost while Whitman=92s truth was su=
ddenly tossed at
Henry and June
two lovers star-crossed. Ezra Pound China-found canto-boun=
d full of
sound, Yao! And
Emily a mystery wrote poetry for all to see, wow! Ferling=
hetti word
confetti,
scat-back ready, beatnik steady, City Lights heady, the =93Howl=
=94 was so much
fun;
James Dean was
such a scream and Morrison was filled with dreams and both=
died much
too young. Jim
Carroll lives with Randal Jarrell my bookshelf won with Le=
wis Carol. The
Hobohemian
hepcat-hipster tried to make it with a twister. And Leonard Co=
hen wrote all
alone =93her
perfect body=94 Suzanne poem.
Bus-stop red-hot
flip-flop last-stop dew-drop bop-hop flick of the lovers=
tongue; stop-gap
beat-rap sex-trap
hip-wrap sound-tap flap-clap pose of the rebel young. A=
nd in the
1990=92s
we are confused
=91bout lust, can we, should we, would we tender touch, o=
f lovers who are
loving not
enough, or, perhaps, maybe, of course, too much?
Claude Monet no
pallet gray, colors rich and full of May. Vincent painted=
Starry Nights
and softly
unveiled the world=92s rights. da Vinci gave us mirrored hands=
and all the
wonders of the
land. And Gustav Klimt the kissers primped within his arms=
her body
limp (waiting for
=93The Kiss=94); for Lenny Kaye and Patti=92s way they =
=93Ask The
Angels=94
come and play
(sweet poetic bliss).
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:25:22 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: MC--I salute you
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MC:
Today, had more
good posts than I could digest. You go
girl. I salute
your wonderful
handling of your mood and obtaining what you wanted
without being,
well, you know what I am trying to say here.
Damn good
job. Good list and I just felt VoC was such a hard
book to read because
of the way I read
and the way Jack wrote it. He wants to
recreate
reality with
words, and I read it that way, and it takes my energy. I
want to read Pic
though, so I will read VoC in hopes someone else will
go there with
me. Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:07:45 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Another Beat?
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Not here to say
ill of the dead, but beat for Kuralt seems a mighty
stretch. There is a long a wonderful tradition of
describing the by
ways of American
life that goes way way back. In our century think of
John Dos Passos,
Sandburg, Frost, Grant Wood and a lot of
socio-realist
painters, etc, even Norman Rockwell (who reminds me more
of Kuralt than
the others do.) This is not something
the beats invented
tho some of them
did it very well. Kuralt always struck
me as
saccharine, but
then I rarely watched him except for hating his
commentary for
the Lilihammer Winter Olympics. But then I don't think
I've ever liked
anyone on morning TV so maybe I am the wrong guy to
comment.
J. Stauffer
Howard Park
wrote:
>
> I definately
think that Charles Kuralt was a Beat, in the best and sweetest
> sense. I morn his passing.
>
> I believe
the core of "beat" was not sex, drugs and rock 'n jazz, though I
> can
appreciate the positive qualities of those activities, to say the least.
>
> Kuralt was
about exploration and finding joy in simple things, not so simple
> but
unrecognized people and the beauty that is everywhere that we frequently
> miss in the
day-to-day hubub of our lives - things like the Daisy in the
> railroad
yard that AG wrote a poem about, the apple pie of the midwest in On
> The Road, and
the exceptional "ordinary" prople profiled by Charles Kuralt
> Beat Indeed!
>
> It is not
well known that Kuralt was a friend and sometimes mentor to Dr.
> Hunter S.
Thompson and was also a lifelong Greenwhich Villager (and rural
> North
Carolina). His passing leaves no one on
the media who did what he did
> - chasing
the good in ordinary folks instead of scandel and gossip.
>
> Take time to
smell the roses today, and remember Charles Kuralt.
>
> Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:06:12 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilhelm Reich
Reich probably
didn't realized that he was getting into the number one
American
obsession. It is true this obsession
borders could be insane. The
new morality
speak of the New York Times and the current politics of
political
correctness will always cover up a reality that we haven't dealt
with in this
country. However it is secondary to our
karma with the tribal
peoples which
must also be dealt with. Unfortunately for gen-x and beyond
things may get
more difficult for those who can't fend for themselves on the
bottom of our
class and economic beliefs which are a shedding of that same
sexual armor.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:14:37 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
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Someone certainly
didn't forget any of his perscriptions this morning. =
I take it art is
pretty grand stuff.
William H. Rose,
III wrote:
> =
> The Playful
Poets
> by William
H. Rose, III
> =
> Kerouac
ruck-sack back-pack Buddha-Jack beat-back run-on James Joyce fi=
rst-choice
> odd-voice
free-fall flowing, you know, come on. (In cosmic slums Jack w=
rote the bums
> and beat
upon his clever-kicked and hobo drums in search of wide-eyed l=
overs who
> would hum.)
On the road his story told in non-stop verse so nudely bold=
=2E Kicks and
> chicks and
movin=92 on; swimmin=92 in women and carryin=92 on. Kerouac =
road-knack
> Dharma-pack
mystic poet of our past. . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:24:09 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "where have all the scholars
gone
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Marie,
shame on
you. Here I was getting ready to enjoy
some feel good posts
about
"Death" and "Life" and "Poetry" and
"ART" and "Bursting Hormones"
and how hip and
wonderful I feel after discovering the Beats and you go
and turn the
discussion back to boring old specific books which I might
have to read
unless I can find a Comics Classics or a Cliff's Notes.
What a cranky old
Beat Chick you are.
I am going to
have to renew my subscription to Seventeen if this keeps
up.
"Teen Angel,
can you see me
Teen Angel, can
you hear me
Are you somewhere
up above
And are you still
my own True Love"
Bif (and Muffy)
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> long time
passing," where have all the scholars gone?
> i know its
summer, BUT
> there is a
remarkable change over on the list, from young folks chatting up
> a storm and
maybe a few posts to sink teeth into (or pomes or folks or
> whatever) .
. .
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:22:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road
In a message
dated 97-07-06 12:33:51 EDT, you write:
<< Robert told them all to stick it, if they
didn't like it. >>
An article that
really impressed me when I was a kid, was Mitchum being
busted for pot
and there was a picture of him doing time at the LA county
prison farm. A
reporter or someone was asking him questions when he was
milking a cow. He
aimed her tit at the person's face and squirted a stream of
milk.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:36:54 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
In a message
dated 97-07-06 17:16:43 EDT, you write:
<< I still
like the shit thing on pg. 26
"...we are nothing but shits and we'll
all die and eat shit in graves..." >>
A little
off-thread here, but a while back Claude Peleiu said he read an
article in
Rolling Stone about Chuck Berry and copraphelia. Did anyone read
it?
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:39:00 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Denise Levertov.
Worse than
discourse!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:41:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWorks and FireWalks and rusty strings
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The Independence
Day
Fireworks
opened a
universal
wormhole
that connected
the cybernetic
grapevine
to graveyards of
memory
which i'd just
recently unearthed.
archeaology of
memory
is an old habit.
After FireWalk
was done
and i read it
and mailed it around
and read it aloud
here and there
i realized that
it
wasn't about
the ghosts in the
words
but
a ghost
hidden behind all
the words
and
that Anne
was right all
along
about where
my heart
abided
despite my vows
to the contrary
and
now after typing
the
saga
onto this
cybernetic
highway
the FireWorks hit
me
another
grand irony
as the
Independence
day
celebrations in
DC
bring together
young maya
with the princess
who was this
ghost
and i wrote of
her memory
to maya
as maya met the
princess
at an
Independence Day Celebration
and i hear
through the
grapevine
that it is just
two weeks
to the princess'
wedding
to another David
one of so many
in the universe
and i must
am compelled to
create
a fitting
wedding gift
which may or may
not ever reach them.
so
i pull out my old
Ovation
and a garage sale
tape recorder
and
spend an hour and
a half
that seemed
like
a decade or two
singing and
playing
on rusty strings
with softened
fingers
and a growling
voice
and create
a package
and fear the
rusted strings
may create
infection but
the artistic
expression
is perhaps my
best
birthing
in many many many
years
and as the
package is being finished
i can barely
barely
type with my left
hand
for the soreness
from the rust
and
i thank the
Beat-L
grapevine
for creating the
wormhole
that let me into
this
happy celebration
in two weeks
even though i'm a
faded memory
in faded jeans
and
firmly planted in
the Midwest.
Somewhere on the
first
side of the tape
i started into
You are My
Sunshine
my
only Sunshine
and left time
completely
and i returned
to wonder just
where it came
from
cuz
i'd never ever
played that song
or sang that song
while playing
and the muse just
laughed and Hank
Williams coughed
and gave me a
good kick
and i
let the tape run
out while
i went to the
kitchen
for a cup of
coffee
and an Old Gold
Light
Now the second
side
winds to an end
with my
reflection
and her
reflection
so high
above these walls
in an eternity in
the woods of Vermont
that is always
there
but is thankfully
now
pleasantly passed
along
to another
David more
oriented to her East coast ways.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. this whole experience has put me hopelessly
behind on Visions of
Cody but i've had
my own visions so i ain't gonna cry over spilt blood.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:10:57 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Great Rememberer
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Someone posted
about Ginsburg's notes appearing in the back of VoC. My
copy is the First
McGraw-Hill Paperback Edition, 1974. In
the
beginning, it
contains The Great Rememberer, which is the introduction
and was written
by Allen May 17, 1972-Denver -- June 9, 1972, Rendezvous
Mountain, Tetons,
Wyo. Is this the same, or did Allen
write another
piece for
VoC? Thanks for your help.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:33:57 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy
darkness--random thoughts in reply
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
I have no identity that is not false.
>
>
still out of time
meandering
through posts between X-files show
found this line
of particularly
wise scholarly merit !!!!
shalom,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:40:13 -0500
Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>
Subject: Kicks, Joy, Darkness
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Marie Countryman was soliciting
thoughts about the Kerouac tribute
CD, KICKS, JOY,
DARKNESS. For anyone who might be
interested, I have
reviewed the disc
for the electronic journal POSTMODERN CULTURE, which can
be accessed at
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/contents.all.html.
Click the icon
reading "This Issue" (it's 7.3 [May 1997]) and scroll down
to the reviews.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:42:02 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: skimming Part 1 Cody
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funny ... if i
counted correctly, "Cody" appears PRECISELY 50 times in
Part One. wonder if such a round number was consciously
planned??? :)
Most meaningful
line so far (but mostly cuz of fireworks escapade)
p.9 (of the
salina public library edition)
"So it sit
in Jamaica, Long Island in the night, thinking of Cody and
the road --
happens to be a fog - distant low of kaxon moaning horn -
sudden swash of
locomotive steam, either that or crash of steel rods - a
car washing by
with the sound we all know from city dawns - reminds me
of Cambridge,
Mass. at dawn and i didn't go to Harvard -- ...."
so perhaps some
got caught in this foggy book. The
princess i wrote of
earlier this evening
lived in Jamaica and the memories of Jamaica are
striking here
(and throughout part one). but this line
especially cuz
we had more than
one rendevouz in Cambridge that were a fog where the
entire world left
and just us nobody else (except i do recall hearing
Dallas bitching
about us out in the parking lot fucking in my Toyota and
i believe a van
was scratched when in orgasmic confusion i attempted to
park a very tall
van in a very short parking garage and a dinner at
Legal Seafood
with two indians from the bronx)....
at any rate. i may actually read part one again when i
re-enter time
myself to see
what i missed but i know where he's at in Jamaica and how
it can play with
memories and whatnot!
bye bye -- off to
count the number of times Henry Fonda appears in Part
One (i didn't
catch Jimmy Stewart in there at all - damn shame!)....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:00:56 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: VoC
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A couple of
things. I'll save what I think is my
best for last.
1. I am only to page 10. I spent a lot of time trying to digest
Allen's
introduction. I like the way that Allen points out that
Jack wrote
history 15 years
before. That is the way I always felt.
2. I like the line on page 9
(ever so far, in
the hush, you can hear the tiny SQUEE of something, the
nameless asthmas
of the throat of Time)
That is poetic.
3. We recently talked about the tree in the
forest, the poem unread, and
Jack points out
on page 10 that:
"When I see
a leaf fall, I always say goodbye -- And that has a sound
that is lost
unless there is a country silence at which time I'm sure it
really rattles
the earth, ..."
That blows me
away to think of the sound of the leaf letting go and
hitting the earth
and on one level, the leaf does rattle the earth.
But the best to
me is in the middle of the description of the food on
page 10 where he
says, putting us on and raking the reviewers, and
paying homage:
-- of deepdish
strudel, of time and the river -- of freshly baked
powdered cookies
--
And if you have
read Of Time and the River, you know what he means and
to me, this is an
incredibly funny funny funny thing. If
you haven't
read it, I think
it is about 916, or 912 pages long, though I may be off
so slightly. Jack is jerking our chains hard hard
hard. I am LOL.
Much better than
the jerk off scene.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:27:54 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: VoC
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Sorry about the
number of posts here, but, this is so sublime and scary
at the same
time. On page 12:
We find the bar,
rolling through the October climaxes of leaves falling
and Halloween
soon and I got red October shirt ah me so sad that every
year we have to
lose our October!
and this in the
paragraph right after he says:
All you do is
head straight for the grave, a face just covers a skull
awhile. Stretch that skull-cover and make it smile.
Prophet or poet,
or both?
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:28:17 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Sorry about
the number of posts here, but, this is so sublime and scary
> at the same
time. On page 12:
>
> We find the
bar, rolling through the October climaxes of leaves falling
> and
Halloween soon and I got red October shirt ah me so sad that every
> year we have
to lose our October!
>
> and this in
the paragraph right after he says:
>
> All you do
is head straight for the grave, a face just covers a skull
> awhile. Stretch that skull-cover and make it smile.
>
> Prophet or
poet, or both?
>
> Peace,
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
prophet
of Dylan at his
grave!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:05 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Visionaries (Eliot/Ginsberg again,
for Michael Skau & et al)
In a message
dated 97-06-30 13:02:48 EDT, dcarter@TOGETHER.NET (Diane Carter)
writes:
<<
(Prufrock)
"Do I dare disturb the universe?"
>>
Disturb it all
you want. It still won't change one mother-fuckin fucken
thing.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:09 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In a message
dated 97-07-01 08:05:11 EDT, atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU (Tony
Trigilio) writes:
<< R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
>Has anyone on the list ever heard of Diane
De Rooy.
Yes.
...snip...
I have found Diane to be honest, considerate,
compassionate--and a very
good writer.
She is a professional. >>
Is she real or
Memorex?
Am I Attila the
Hun
or Tilly the bum.
Why do I keep
ducking the question
when all I really
want is a little respect.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:14 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In a message
dated 97-07-02 00:14:48 EDT, lisar@NET-LINK.NET (Lisa M. Rabey)
writes:
<< And
considering that I haven't spoken to 3/4 of the people on the list
here
personally, met them, had coffee with them nor
shared in their lives, which
includes you sherri, maybe you do not exist
either. >>
I just checked
and I am not on any of the lists and have therefore determined
that I do not
exist.
I am not Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:17 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: <<Diane>>, di prima,
<<beauty>>
In a message
dated 97-07-01 09:04:10 EDT, love_singing@MSN.COM (Sherri)
writes:
<< douglas,
i think that einstein proved that time essentially stands still
at
the speed of light... am i mistaken?
>>
I remember speeding through the light one
time.
$100 dollars later, I now stand still at the
light.
Red means stop, yellow means stop, green means
proceed with caution.
yieldingly,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:26 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kill Time, Save Vegetables
In a message
dated 97-07-02 18:33:49 EDT, iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET (James
William Marshall)
writes:
<< If
anyone's interested, I'll relate more of what's been going on with God,
Satan and other religious figures and me
later. >>
Shouldn't god be
making child support payments or something?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:59:32 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.& then
In a message
dated 97-07-02 02:38:43 EDT, pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM (Patricia
Elliott) writes:
<< I wish that i felt more secure about the
memory babe
material but my primary concern in that
controversy was not the theft of
materials and access to that collection (here
i shout, pardon) IT IS THE
JK ARCHIVES. >>
The JK Archives?
What's up with that?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:21:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cody
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707061728350733@msn.com>
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On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> btw, maybe
this is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
> neal as a
sort of mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
Hi, Sherri. Yes,
I do see C a bit this way. In fact, look at K's
references/descriptions
of C in OTR--and he is referred as an "older
brother"
type (those are my q marks, not K's). C is what K has
lost--G--and what
in a very real way America has lost--the adonis from
the snowy
mystical west of the ol' luminous Dream. It always breaks my
heart to read and
see K's intensity of feeling for and trust in the
spirit energy of
Neal---but then we find that their relationship and even
Neal's soul and
daybreak days are like evrything else wheeling around on
the
"quivering meat conception" and are therefore mutable and always
already going
away and changed.
best,
steve
Pacific
University
Forest Grove,
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:44:16 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Jazz-poetics
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Please brace
yourself,
Coltrane has been
my man for a little while now . . . touched him with
'a love supreme'
. . . the saxophone being his rendition of the divine .
. . the
documentation of religious experience is not found through
theology, but
through art, through creation . . .
i have been
trying to understand 'Om', but having some difficulty . . .
must be patient .
. . 'Kulu Se Mama' (?) is also up there . . .
With the
jazz-poetry group, Rhythmic Missionaries, my brother performed
a piece
unofficially titled 'Jazzku' = he recites haiku then the
instruments
interpret / respond, etc . . . a bunch of traditional nature
/ seasonal haiku,
haiku centred on the spirits (beer, tequila, etc):
too much tequila
has been drunk this evening
composing haiku
Gautama (the
Buddha) haiku, and the final haiku in climax:
bid-de-deeeeee-de-bop
oh how i wd like to stop
writing haiku flop!
With regards to
Coltrane, this is part of my own writing, 'Winter' from
'Mountain
Tasting':
these questions pour out now able to
pronounce,
last season s hurrying through eternity
has slowed to the beat of Eternal
Slowdown,
boomerang trajectories of John Coltrane Om
fantastic
envelop my body with Trinity
translations,
Church persuasions are not my
affiliation,
(but i continue to dig in relaxation)
i realise much of
this is given out of context . . . however . . .
'Eternal
Slowdown' is a Kerouac term found in Mexico City Blues
describing
Charlie Parker . . . 'hurrying through eternity' is a
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti word combination from the poem 'After the Birds
Have Cried' (?) .
. . the line structure is originally simply one line,
instead of commas
there are dashes (Ginsberg's 'dash of consciousness').
The one line is
spread out into numerous lines simply because the page
is not wide
enough, (although the way it is written in this letter is
just as good) . .
. i interpret the use of Ginsberg's dashes as the
combination of
diverse thoughts. The mind thinks a thousand thoughts at
one time, why not
document it that way. The problem with using
punctuation, etc.
is that you have to be consistent with it = system /
pattern (in the
one poem at least), or else there is no coherency, which
is needed if the
piece is written for an audience,
(punctuation is used
to aid the
reader; yes / no ?).
As well, certain
poems of mine i view as purely jazz pieces - not with
jazz themes, but
jazz itself - the long line, although having a rhythm
implied, is
written without the rhythm being visual, giving the reader
freedom to interpret
the rhythm, similar to Coltrane's rendition of the
traditional
'Greensleeves', or any artist performing a cover piece =
which means, the
reader himself is a creator . . . as well, certain word
combinations are
repeated throughout a poem, similar to a repeated riff,
implying similar
rhythm for those syllables = notes . . .
o.k. . . . here
we go: poem titled "Days Gone By Remembered Now". The
long dash does
not come out properly on email, so will settle with " -
", it is not
to be confused with the hyphen ( ex. rainbow-chasing).
Italycs don't
come out either . . .
Days Gone By
Remembered Now
27/12/96 -
22/1/97
1
days gone by
remembered now while rainbow-chasing in Nappa Valley
California on wet-wet winding 2-lane
highway - passing vineyard
after
vineyard
as if gold and
maybe more lay hidden behind trees in misty mountain
range
just beyond finger reach must get closer or, drink bottle after
bottle
green attire and
children-giggle further fascination into multi-coloured
realm
where all is illusory and all is imaginary
in the all-real world of
the mind-
diversion
or, in the all-real world of the secret language of the
body
2
days gone by
remembered now while separated from young heart relations
her curley blond locks of fabled
proportions strong jawed, strong
limbed wonderfully waisted and fantastic
as if dreams
could capture laughter, teeth, hair and majestic all to
swim
with her voice in candle-lit bathtub to promenade naked in
cemetery with
firm limbs of youth there is only youth in love, only strength
fingers locked in
fingers to winter cool-breeze gallivanting the
immensity of
it all
two bodies, genitalia cloaked into one rhythm one pulse
one
body, mind: thought one joy, bliss, elation illumination
union and
formation in non-thought the holy silence of sex
3
days gone by
remembered now while back in bilingual city of
flake-covered
stark-lit avenues they being urban passageways made by man
returning
now to awakened status after months of
decay salt and sand being
the main
things expected
as if white
climate returned man to earth in new beginning where clean
holy ash
washes dirt and sin and repulsive reality
off must get head
straight before
day of reckoning or, at least must get head straight before
last
winter snow-
fall
ice-sheets turn
layer of earth into cold blue experience with night
howls
descended from the gods of the arctic
coast where did they hail
from? where
do they go? tempting me in this land of plenty in season
empty
the gods
and their terror-hollow howls (slap head to understand) the
holy silence of
death
4
days gone by
remembered now while digesting waves of clear-mind
afterthought
from wind-swept disorder harmony discovered in dry crunching snow
or,
harmony discovered in wet snowball snow
as if weather was
a factor it being sense-delicious and
rambunctious -
it being
the IT FANTASTIC where in mid-street,
naked and alive, the pressing
of fingers
on virgin snow is felt under ice-sheets,
felt under layer of cold
blue earth
felt to the burning core!
from base of
spine to solar plexus, inside throat to top of head
emotions in
motion
emotions in motion burning,
rising, rising to stomach
in between
eyebrows, in between thighs emotions in motion emotions in
motion
the weight of love: awaiting fortune the burden of solitude: the
birds of
utopia
where did this hail from? where does it go? does the man
at the
corner hold the knife of redemption?
--------
('the weight of
love' & 'the burden of solitude' = from a Ginsberg poem:
'Song' )
I use this medium
(email) to help me document my own poetics.
I know this has
been wordy.
Thank you for
listening - would like some feedback from poem, if
possible.
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:55:32 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: visions of codeine
i have not
started voc yet. I'm too lazy to go to
the library. there, I've
said it.
I saw that movie,
Men In Black tonight. I usually never
see anything that
isn't either
foreign or an "art film" or better yet both. But, you know
what? i thought
MIB was a great movie. Except that i had
to pay for both
myself and my
goddam boyfriend.
words like
statues crack and crumble
exposed to oxygen.
spurious claims
of love
spoken into stale
bedroom air
have come back to
haunt and destroy their creator.
---maya
"when i say i'm in love, you best believe I mean I'm in luv, L-U-V."
DISCLAIMER: THE
POST YOU HAVE JUST READ IS ENTIRELY UN-BEAT-RELATED, THANK
YOU AND HAVE A
GREAT NIGHT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:49:38 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody
thx for the reply
steve... y'know the other thing i been
thinkin bout is
Jung's anima and
animus archetypes. maybe the whole thing
was JK's constant
search for
wholeness by knowing his own archetypes from outside himself; i.e.,
Neal is his animus self and Gerard his
anima. this then is transmuted to
America - the upright, uptight, established, religious,
oppressive majority
vs. the wild,
brave, daring, beat, living, questioning, mocking minority...
paix,
sherri
----------
From: Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 10:21 PM
To: Sherri
Cc: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Cody
On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> btw, maybe
this is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
> neal as a
sort of mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
Hi, Sherri. Yes,
I do see C a bit this way. In fact, look at K's
references/descriptions
of C in OTR--and he is referred as an "older
brother"
type (those are my q marks, not K's). C is what K has
lost--G--and what
in a very real way America has lost--the adonis from
the snowy
mystical west of the ol' luminous Dream. It always breaks my
heart to read and
see K's intensity of feeling for and trust in the
spirit energy of
Neal---but then we find that their relationship and even
Neal's soul and
daybreak days are like evrything else wheeling around on
the
"quivering meat conception" and are therefore mutable and always
already going
away and changed.
best,
steve
Pacific
University
Forest Grove,
Oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:07:22 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: the beat
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Bentz wrote:
> Take it
away, Dr. Sax. Play on Train. Wail on Roland Kirk. Play on
> Jazz
man. Anybody but Kenny G!
=
take it away
Dr. Sax /
play on train / /
wail on
Roland Kirk
play on
Jazz man /
Anybody
but Kenny G!
slashes [ / ] =
syllable pause
in a 5/5 time
signature (?)
--------
"Ode to a
Queen Mary Birthday Bash Reunion"
1997
. . .
promised /
her a
poem
that night
i drank . .
. /
gin after gin after - - - -
dream-
ing of
gin
. . . and was
lucky / - -
enough - -
t have her
pour me
the rounds . .
. /
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:05:33 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: rhymers
bones dry faster
in the sand,
my promised land.
Ancient columns
of black granite
other senses,
from other planets.
Where the highway
turns to rubble,
an electric,
metal, shining bubble.
Rising softly in
the loudness,
the sea, the
night, the sky is cloudless.
When I say I
ain't gonna shove,
you best believe
I mean I'm in love.
-m
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:46:42 -0400
Reply-To: Tajimapena@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Renee Tajima
<Tajimapena@AOL.COM>
Subject: unsubscribe
Dear Beat-L,
please cancel my subscription to Beat-L temporarily. I will be
travelling for a
while and cannot get to my email. Thank
you! Renee Tajima
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:36:21 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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I don't know if
anyone has brought this up (forgive me, Marie, if you
did), but the
biggest thing I noticed in rereading the first portion of
VOC is JK's
stunning use of colour (colour spelled the Canadian way cos
we have yet to
pry ourselves from the claws of the Commonwealth). In
nearly every
sketch in the first 32 pages colours play a vital role:
'Coffee is served
in white porcelain mugs-sometimes brown and cracked.
An old pot with a
half inch of black fat sits on the grill...' (p.3-4)
'a torn rubber
carpet leading to ticket box...painted gaudy orange
brown; [marble
counter] was once painted brown...now has a shapeless
color like shit
against the gray, almost shit-gray sidewalk' (p.4)
'In the raw wood
wall a strange beautiful window with blue and red
stained glass
fringes; sprawling "alpine lodge" crazy crooked wood
house...pale
shapeless snot green, stained with ages of rain and snow,
onetime red (now
forlorn hint of red)' (p.5)
'Western Music
Co. written in white against green glass with lights
behind but so
sooty is the white part it makes a dirty sad effect; the
Harmony Bar and
Grill in crimson neon upon the gray sidewalk' (p.5-6)
'The Men's room
in Third Avenue El has wood walls painted green...yellow
up to old carved
wooden ceiling' (p.6)
'noble old
ceiling of ancient decorated in fact almost baroque (Louis
XV?) plaster now
browned a smoky rich tan color' (p.10)
'she wears
low-cut green sexy dress under red coat...her green dress has
ribbon collar
then opens below to reveal bosom breastbone which is no
longer milkwhite
but weather red.' (p.11)
'the sky looking
like it had been sugar cured, peppered and cloved and
smoked during the
night like a ham and was retaining hints of glistening
moisture in the
skin-somewhere in its pigmentation.' (p.14)
'I see a Negro
cat wearing an ordinary gray felt hat but a deep blue, or
purplish shirt
with white shiny pearl-type buttons-a gray sharkskin suit
jacket over it-but
brown pants, black shoes, deep blue ordinary
one-stripe socks
and gabardine topper short and beat,..carrying brown
paper bag...-dark
brownskin- his big hands hang, his fingernails are
pink (not white)
and are soiled from a laboring job...' (p.18)
'a bleak
rectory...is that peculiarly pale orange brick, color of puke,
cat's puke...the
oaken door but pale brown oaken not dark...' (p.20)
'the MERIT Food
Shop, written in green neon (greon) in the window, MERIT
is, and Food Shop
in orange-now why?-...the floor is all shades of brown
and yellow
"pebbled" marble...'(p.26)
And the best
colour description...Jack's stained-glass window at St.
Patrick's
Cathedral:
'a lonely icy
congealed blue with streaks of hot pink-little blue
holes-painted
with an immeasureable blue ink, noir comme bleu, black
like blue...the
other windows grow rich, brown, dark, secret, get better
with age of light
like wine with age of Time-...my holy blue window, the
one like the
window at 94-21 that made me so often think there was a
weird blue light
in the railyards...taking the ordinary corner
steetlamp...and
giving it inky blue hues like that
apocalyptic-end-of-the-world
blue light, the light of subterranean
stars...these
glass windows refract NIGHT too for now I see nothing but
the rich-dim
recollections of what at dusk was a Rembrandt barrel of ale
in a Dublin
saloon when Joyce was young...'
JK's use of
colour continues through all his books, and certain colours
are associated
with different feelings:
white, blue,
gray-coldness, bleakness...stemming from the cold Lowell
winters of Jack's
youth
red,
brown-warmth, comfort...for instance the 'browns' in his family's
old house and the
redbrick of the factories in Lowell.
(so where does
'mauve boilermakers' fit among these definitions???)
As far as
Kerouac's spontaneous prose goes, the two standout pieces are
his reverie over
the girl at the cafeteria (which has been covered so
I'll skip that)
and his brilliant latenight musing in the deserted Times
Square cafe
(p.16-18).
In the first part
he watches an Arabic-looking man, and falls into an
'Aly Khan'
Egyptian-themed reverie, fantasizing the man is about to be
dragged back
through the door and offered as sacrifice, the door being
'a big green door
[which] holds itself up like a lamb to sacrifice to
the sun at sea
dawn over him, and it has wings.'
Soon, however,
the huge plate glass window catches Jack's eye and he
starts a
mesmerizing hallucinatory spiel about the images he sees, both
the latenight
street scene on 6th Ave. and the images from inside the
cafe reflected in
the nighttime window: 'a great scene of New York at
night with cars
and cabs and people rushing by and Amusement center,
Bookstore, Leo's
Clothing, Printing, and Ward's Hamburger and all of it
November clear
and dark is riddled by these diaphanous hanging neons,
Japanese walls,
door, exit signs-'
Jack begins to
lose himself in the window before him ('like kaleidoscope
over
kaleidoscope'), then muse upon a fourth-story window across the
street, and lose
himself in the window again, the backwards cafe signs,
the shiny flashes
of passing cars, distorted images in a parked car's
round fender.
Finally, after a good half-hour or so of watching (and
writing some
absolutely amazing prose) he is brought back to the real
world by the
sounds around him, and he concludes his sketch with a
romantic,
heart-felt sentence that shows Jack as happy as he's ever
been: 'I hear
above the clatter and sleepiness of cafeteria dishes (and
swish of
revolving door with flapping rubbers) and voices moaning, I
hear above this
the faint klaxons and moving rushes of the city and I
have my great
immortal metropolitan inside-the-city feeling that I first
dug (and all of
us) as an infant...smack in the heart of shiny
glitters.'
Pardon my
language, but I had nearly forgotten what a fucking incredible
masterpiece
Visions of Cody is. And still 350 pages to go!
having a blast
retuning to my ole buddy Jack,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:55:09 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
Hi there Marie,
>
> any one out
there listening to the JK tribute CD?
yup...a fine cd,
isn't it?
> personally,
i am really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row wine"--great
> performance
piece and the kind of readings i aspire to.
That's my least
favorite cut on the cd, one of the three or so
disappointments
(Eddie Vedder, you're totally clueless!). I don't think
much of Maggie
Estep. Too much shtick. All this whiny, loud,
semi-yelling, New
York caterwauling is grating to my ears. Enough
already! Her
artistic high point (in my very narrow opinion) was that
heybaby-yobaby-heybaby-yobaby-yoyoyo-baby-yoyoyo
song a few years back.
But that's just
me.
What's my
favorite? I love so many of the tracks...Juliana is her usual
adorable self, a
wonderful reading, kinda like kid's story time at the
library, people
don't realize Jack was a big kid at heart and could
write with a lot
of whimsy...Warren Zevon is great, love how he says
"wiiinnnne"
(he should do a Kerouac book-on-tape with that great
voice)...HST is,
well, his usual inimitable drunken mumbling hilarious
self...Richard
Lewis is surprisingly good...Allen, Ferlinghetti, and
Uncle Bill are in
top form...Jack reading MacDougal St. Blooze is
wonderful,
totally relaxed compared to his reading of the same pome
(different
excerpt) on the Steve Allen album...Robert Hunter and Johnny
Depp are good at
reading the VOC bits...
In all, though,
the one that steals the show is John Cale's "The Moon".
Truly awesome and
majestic.
Agh, been writing
all night. Time for bed. I'll come out to play
tomorrow.
Good night.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:14:14 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody
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Sherri wrote:
>
> thx for the
reply steve... y'know the other thing i
been thinkin bout is
> Jung's anima
and animus archetypes. maybe the whole
thing was JK's constant
> search for
wholeness by knowing his own archetypes from outside himself; i.e.,
> Neal is his animus self and Gerard his
anima. this then is transmuted to
> America
- the upright, uptight, established,
religious, oppressive majority
> vs. the
wild, brave, daring, beat, living, questioning, mocking minority...
>
> paix,
> sherri
>
> ----------
> From: Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 10:21 PM
> To: Sherri
> Cc: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: Cody
>
> On Sun, 6
Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
> > btw,
maybe this is stupid, or maybe it's old news, but does anyone else see
> > neal as
a sort of mystical reincarnation, in JK's mind, of Gerard?
> >
> > ciao,
> > sherri
> >
> Hi, Sherri.
Yes, I do see C a bit this way. In fact, look at K's
>
references/descriptions of C in OTR--and he is referred as an "older
>
brother" type (those are my q marks, not K's). C is what K has
> lost--G--and
what in a very real way America has lost--the adonis from
> the snowy
mystical west of the ol' luminous Dream. It always breaks my
> heart to
read and see K's intensity of feeling for and trust in the
> spirit
energy of Neal---but then we find that their relationship and even
> Neal's soul
and daybreak days are like evrything else wheeling around on
> the
"quivering meat conception" and are therefore mutable and always
> already
going away and changed.
>
> best,
>
> steve
>
> Pacific
University
> Forest
Grove, Oregon
And Dr. Sax would
be his shadow then i suppose.
How are you
coming along in Aion?
it's across the
room and i'm too far away to check and see where i'm at
on that one.
I am awake and
alive here on planet earth
(to any who might
have wondered)
my excursion out
of time
was a brief
beautiful
excursion.
there is but one
tape and
some
cyber-conversation
that even can
show that i was gone
at all.
so hopefully
the tape will go
off
snail mail
and the
collective delete
buttons will have
worked
their charms
and i'll be back
in the old
Independence Day
gruff
growling
mood
i was in before
overtaken by
nostalgia.
i intend to get
Damn serious about reading Cody today.
i intend
but rome weren't
built on one good day of good intentions
and
so who knows
..... gotta play taxi for step-Dad with the bypassed
heart. perhaps i can read a page between each stop.
Good morning
to y'all
where-ever you are!
It smell out the
window like the Harvest best hurry in the gathering
cause within a
day or two we're gonna have us one hell of a good old
Harvest season
Kansas storm (the kind movies are made about!)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:13:34 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: HST and hell's angels
In-Reply-To: <199707062308.TAA07664@pike.sover.net>
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DC asked me off
list if HST really hung with the angels or psuedo'd himself
through, and
since it is part of my summer reading project might as well
post here as well
yes he lived and
rode with them for over two years. the book is a wonderful
piece of
journalism in which events are filtered through the consciousness
of the
journalist. it makes a great comparison piece to the
explosion/gonzo/novel/journalism
of F&L.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:13:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: CODY PART ONE
In-Reply-To: <33C0B895.11B5@sk.sympatico.ca>
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wonderful! i only
zeroed in on brown, (reminscent of Dr SAX brown)., and
JK's word
"greon" for green neon. this is wonderful reading and also brings
up "word
sketches" of JK again. if you are going to sketch in words you
best be aware of
colours et al. thanks so much adrien, great post.
mc
>I don't know
if anyone has brought this up (forgive me, Marie, if you
>did), but the
biggest thing I noticed in rereading the first portion of
>VOC is JK's
stunning use of colour (colour spelled the Canadian way cos
>we have yet
to pry ourselves from the claws of the Commonwealth). In
>nearly every
sketch in the first 32 pages colours play a vital role:
>
>'Coffee is
served in white porcelain mugs-sometimes brown and cracked.
>An old pot
with a half inch of black fat sits on the grill...' (p.3-4)
>
>'a torn
rubber carpet leading to ticket box...painted gaudy orange
>brown;
[marble counter] was once painted brown...now has a shapeless
>color like
shit against the gray, almost shit-gray sidewalk' (p.4)
>
>'In the raw
wood wall a strange beautiful window with blue and red
>stained glass
fringes; sprawling "alpine lodge" crazy crooked wood
>house...pale
shapeless snot green, stained with ages of rain and snow,
>onetime red
(now forlorn hint of red)' (p.5)
>
>'Western
Music Co. written in white against green glass with lights
>behind but so
sooty is the white part it makes a dirty sad effect; the
>Harmony Bar
and Grill in crimson neon upon the gray sidewalk' (p.5-6)
>
>'The Men's
room in Third Avenue El has wood walls painted green...yellow
>up to old
carved wooden ceiling' (p.6)
>
>'noble old
ceiling of ancient decorated in fact almost baroque (Louis
>XV?) plaster
now browned a smoky rich tan color' (p.10)
>
>'she wears
low-cut green sexy dress under red coat...her green dress has
>ribbon collar
then opens below to reveal bosom breastbone which is no
>longer
milkwhite but weather red.' (p.11)
>
>'the sky
looking like it had been sugar cured, peppered and cloved and
>smoked during
the night like a ham and was retaining hints of glistening
>moisture in
the skin-somewhere in its pigmentation.' (p.14)
>
>'I see a
Negro cat wearing an ordinary gray felt hat but a deep blue, or
>purplish
shirt with white shiny pearl-type buttons-a gray sharkskin suit
>jacket over
it-but brown pants, black shoes, deep blue ordinary
>one-stripe
socks and gabardine topper short and beat,..carrying brown
>paper
bag...-dark brownskin- his big hands hang, his fingernails are
>pink (not
white) and are soiled from a laboring job...' (p.18)
>
>'a bleak
rectory...is that peculiarly pale orange brick, color of puke,
>cat's
puke...the oaken door but pale brown oaken not dark...' (p.20)
>
>'the MERIT
Food Shop, written in green neon (greon) in the window, MERIT
>is, and Food
Shop in orange-now why?-...the floor is all shades of brown
>and yellow
"pebbled" marble...'(p.26)
>
>And the best
colour description...Jack's stained-glass window at St.
>Patrick's
Cathedral:
>'a lonely icy
congealed blue with streaks of hot pink-little blue
>holes-painted
with an immeasureable blue ink, noir comme bleu, black
>like
blue...the other windows grow rich, brown, dark, secret, get better
>with age of
light like wine with age of Time-...my holy blue window, the
>one like the
window at 94-21 that made me so often think there was a
>weird blue
light in the railyards...taking the ordinary corner
>steetlamp...and
giving it inky blue hues like that
>apocalyptic-end-of-the-world
blue light, the light of subterranean
>stars...these
glass windows refract NIGHT too for now I see nothing but
>the rich-dim
recollections of what at dusk was a Rembrandt barrel of ale
>in a Dublin
saloon when Joyce was young...'
>
>JK's use of
colour continues through all his books, and certain colours
>are
associated with different feelings:
>white, blue,
gray-coldness, bleakness...stemming from the cold Lowell
>winters of
Jack's youth
>red,
brown-warmth, comfort...for instance the 'browns' in his family's
>old house and
the redbrick of the factories in Lowell.
>(so where
does 'mauve boilermakers' fit among these definitions???)
>
>As far as
Kerouac's spontaneous prose goes, the two standout pieces are
>his reverie
over the girl at the cafeteria (which has been covered so
>I'll skip
that) and his brilliant latenight musing in the deserted Times
>Square cafe
(p.16-18).
>
>In the first
part he watches an Arabic-looking man, and falls into an
>'Aly Khan'
Egyptian-themed reverie, fantasizing the man is about to be
>dragged back
through the door and offered as sacrifice, the door being
>'a big green
door [which] holds itself up like a lamb to sacrifice to
>the sun at
sea dawn over him, and it has wings.'
>
>Soon,
however, the huge plate glass window catches Jack's eye and he
>starts a
mesmerizing hallucinatory spiel about the images he sees, both
>the latenight
street scene on 6th Ave. and the images from inside the
>cafe
reflected in the nighttime window: 'a great scene of New York at
>night with
cars and cabs and people rushing by and Amusement center,
>Bookstore,
Leo's Clothing, Printing, and Ward's Hamburger and all of it
>November
clear and dark is riddled by these diaphanous hanging neons,
>Japanese
walls, door, exit signs-'
>
>Jack begins
to lose himself in the window before him ('like kaleidoscope
>over
kaleidoscope'), then muse upon a fourth-story window across the
>street, and
lose himself in the window again, the backwards cafe signs,
>the shiny
flashes of passing cars, distorted images in a parked car's
>round fender.
Finally, after a good half-hour or so of watching (and
>writing some
absolutely amazing prose) he is brought back to the real
>world by the
sounds around him, and he concludes his sketch with a
>romantic,
heart-felt sentence that shows Jack as happy as he's ever
>been: 'I hear
above the clatter and sleepiness of cafeteria dishes (and
>swish of
revolving door with flapping rubbers) and voices moaning, I
>hear above
this the faint klaxons and moving rushes of the city and I
>have my great
immortal metropolitan inside-the-city feeling that I first
>dug (and all
of us) as an infant...smack in the heart of shiny
>glitters.'
>
>Pardon my
language, but I had nearly forgotten what a fucking incredible
>masterpiece
Visions of Cody is. And still 350 pages to go!
>
>having a
blast retuning to my ole buddy Jack,
>
>Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:13:55 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
In-Reply-To: <33C0BCFD.3B66@sk.sympatico.ca>
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>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>Hi there
Marie,
>>
>> any one
out there listening to the JK tribute CD?
>
>yup...a fine
cd, isn't it?
>
>>
personally, i am really loving maggie estap&spitters "skid row
wine"--great
>>
performance piece and the kind of readings i aspire to.
>
>That's my
least favorite cut on the cd, one of the three or so
>disappointments
(Eddie Vedder, you're totally clueless!).
_______
i dont care for her
voice so much as i like the way the band moves in and
out. and the
rhythm. and the stop start between lines or phrases. but i
conceed in
general re: worn out scene.
>
>What's my
favorite? I love so many of the tracks...Juliana is her usual
>adorable
self, a wonderful reading, kinda like kid's story time at the
>library,
people don't realize Jack was a big kid at heart and could
>write with a
lot of whimsy...
___________
absolutely. silly
goofball poems seems to be written for her, although i
can hear JK also
in background . the clarity of her voice and the capturing
of child wonder
is a joy.
Warren Zevon is
great, love how he says
>"wiiinnnne"
(he should do a Kerouac book-on-tape with that great
>voice)...HST
is, well, his usual inimitable drunken mumbling hilarious
>self...Richard
Lewis is surprisingly good...Allen, Ferlinghetti, and
>Uncle Bill
are in top form...Jack reading MacDougal St. Blooze is
>wonderful,
totally relaxed compared to his reading of the same pome
>(different
excerpt) on the Steve Allen album...Robert Hunter and Johnny
>Depp are good
at reading the VOC bits...
_________
agreed. I love
the mcdougal st. blues and would like to have been in sound
room listening to
them edit joe strummer and jack.
>
>In all,
though, the one that steals the show is John Cale's "The Moon".
>Truly awesome
and majestic.
_____________
just re-listened
to the track. yes i have to agree. ok maggie et al can
take their places
in line, john cale just got moved up to the front row, at
least. more i
listen, i think the more i will appreciate. thanks
>
>Agh, been
writing all night. Time for bed. I'll come out to play
>tomorrow.
>
>Good night.
>__________
g'nightadrien!(it's
now morning on east coast) when you listen again,
listen as
carefully to michael stipe's "our gang" which has lodged in my
head and won't
get out. how carefully he enuciates (a miracle, for those
who listened to
REM a few years back), but also how the
music adds to the
little scene and
to me reflects back to dr sax bedroom imagination.
AND,
thanks for coming
out to play with me.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:57:50 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a poetess in the early peace movement Re:
Denise Levertov.
In-Reply-To:
<970706203859_191982931@emout20.mail.aol.com>
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At 20.39 06/07/97
-0400, Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Worse than
discourse!
>Charles
Plymell
>
Buona giornata
Charles, can i get better?
SUMMER 1961 by DENISE LEVERTOV
This is the year
when the old ones,
the old great
ones,
leave us alone on
the road.
The road leads to
the sea.
We have the words
in our pockets,
obscure
directions. The old ones
have taken away
the light of their presence,
we see it moving
away over a hill
off to one side.
They are not
dying,
they are
withdrawn
into a painful
privacy
learning to live
without words.
E.P., "it
looks like dying"-Williams: "I can't
describe to you
what has been
happening to
me"-
H.D. "unable
to speak."
The darkness
twists itself in
the wind, the stars
are small, the
horizon
ringed with
confused urban light-haze.
They have told us
the road lead to
the sea,
and given
the language into
our hands.
We hear
our footsteps
each time a truck
has dazzled past
us and gone
leaving us new
silence.
One can't reach
the sea on this
endless
road to the sea
unless
one turns aside
at the end, it seems,
follows
the owl that
silently glides above it
aslant, back and
forth,
and away into
deep woods.
But for us the
road
unfurls itself,
we count the
words in our
pockets, we wonder
how it will be
without them, we don't
stop walking, we
know
there is far to
go, sometimes
we think the
night wind carries
a smell of the
sea...
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * not a
competent beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:17:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: unsubscribe/fyi
i noticed many
people seem to have forgotten:
You may leave the
list at any time by sending a
"SIGNOFF BEAT-L" command
to LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (or LISTSERV@CUNYVM.BITNET).
this is not a
hint to anybody so please don't jump on me.
I just wanted to
provide this info
to those who are unsubscibing, so they don't find 10000
messages and
wonder what the hell happened.
--maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:43:45 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
Comments: To:
vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
In-Reply-To: <33C0BCFD.3B66@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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adrien:
have listened to
the CD again, and you are so right about the john cale:
which you called
awesome and majestic. awe some.
mc
thanks for adding
to my enjoyment of the CD and that of others, who may be
interested enough
by now to buy or listen, as poetry is moving toward
spoken word and
music, AG and Burroughs, having both explored and
experimented with
and i believe opened the door, homer.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:44:44 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: more dreams
she had long
light brown hair and such white skin that you want to taste it
to see if it isn't
ice after all. We were running from....I
mean towards, I
mean from,
something; I was pulling her hand, we stumbled along a very high,
very rickety
wooden walkway, the only way out. she kept falling.
suddenly the
realization that we are children.
running in the
poppy field, wearing black dresses. late
for school. Such
sadness!
the sun made her
skin steam. her eyes turned green when she experienced
pleasure, red
when she wanted to.... drink.
I was confused,
something in her face told me she was my reflection. We
ceased being two,
outside each other. We had become one
person, ME, just
before i woke up.
Unfortunately she
is the type that drowns easily. Before
they made the
revisions in
their notebooks.
Now, all i see
are footsteps: men's trouser legs, shiny shoes.
I somehow
know he's wearing
a hat. His feet move one in front of the
other endlessly.
It's raining.
Zoom onto the
ground. That's how i know he has a hat!
because it's reflected
in the blurred,
moving ground, in the rainwater. Also
reflected are the neon
signs. it's night on East 7th street, but it's
really hot in the sense of
there being a lot
of cops around. Undercover.
But you can tell
it's the cops 'cause they all drive the same kind of car.
Fade to black.
-------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:51:01 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody, Part III
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Hi everyone. Am twenty or so pages into taped
conversation, and in spite
of Ginsberg's
comments on the intent of this part, I am incredibly bored
and yes, this is
tedius going, the total disconnection of thought when
one is high. Doesn't make me want to tape any of my
friends high. Makes
me want to go
back and read parts I & II again, if only to find a
coherent
word. Most of it is complete dribble and
not being able to
recall anything
at all. Going over Bull shooting at a
dead tree and
Irwin
constructing a bed, with lots of incoherent yea, yea, hee hee hees
in the
middle. The only thing Cody really
remembered so far is that he
has to go out to
buy more pot. Striking contrast the to
the absolute
gushy, wordiness
of parts I and II. Does remind me of
that Ginsberg line
where he says
"rocking and rolling all night over lofty incantations
which in the
morning were stanzas of gibberish."
Also, here for the
first time we are
meeting the hero, Cody, in his own words and thinking,
my god, how can
this guy possibly be a hero for anyone?
However, I will
continue to plow
on, hoping the development of this initial fugue will
lead somewhere
else, like jazz, gathering more voices as it goes along.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:20:47 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Colors
Great comments on
Kerouac's use of color. This has always
been
something that
has struck me in K's work. He was a real
word painter.
I suppose it goes
along with his idea of starting with the "jewel image"
etc. Be interesting at some point to compare the
colors he uses in his
writings with
those of his paintings.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:54:32 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: freshman clearing house
Comments: To:
"Penn; Douglas; K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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>Matt, you
still there? What are you reading these
days?? OR seen any
>good art
exhibits recently?? equally curious.
I can't be still
"there", there only exists for one second and then I'm
somewhere else
(paraphrasing part 1 of Dharma Bums).
Strangely enough
I'm reading Joyce's Portrait of the Artist..., rereading Dharma
Bums (for a
discussion of mountain climbing with the gang here in Colorado), and
trying to track
down my copy of VOC for the list.
Art? There's a decent exhibit by the Joyce Society
at the Tutt Library at
Colorado College,
there's also some good stuff at the Psychiatric Hospital I
work at on
weekends.
I'm only on the
list during the week.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:53:53 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
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From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: skimming Part 1 Cody
Dear David:
At the end of
your "skimming part 1 Cody" message, you write:
"bye bye-
off to count the number of times Henry Fonda appears in Part One (i
didn't catch
Jimmy Stewart in there at all- damn shame!)....
Since we're on
the subject of such references, did you notice the description
of JK running
into a movie scene being filmed in front of a San Francisco
apartment
building? By coincidence, I saw the
movie SUDDEN FEAR with Joan
Crawford and Jack
Palance just before encountering the passage, and put 2&2
together- he is
describing a scene from that movie being shot on location. I
don't have the
book with me now but I will try to locate it, I think but am
not sure that
it's in part 1, and he uses a thinly-disguised name for Joan
Crawford who's at
the center of the anecdote, it's a great description of the
weirdness and
tension he experiences when he bumps into this scene.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:51 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: HENRY MILLER
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Once you have given up the ghost,
everything follows with dead
certainty, even
in the midst of chaos. From the
beginning it was never
anything but
chaos: it was a fluid which enveloped
me, which I breathed in
through the
gills. In the substrata, where the moon
shone steady and
opaque, it was
smooth and fecunding; above it was a jangle and a discord.
In everything I
quickly saw the opposite, the contradiction, and between
the real and the
unreal the irony, the paradox. I was my
own worst enemy.
There was nothing
I wished to do which I could just as well not do. Even
as a child, when
I lacked for nothing, I wanted to die: I
wanted to
surrender because
I saw no sense in struggling. I felt
that nothing would
be proved,
substantiated, added or subtracted by continuing an existence
which I had not
asked for. Everybody around me was a
failure, or if not a
failure,
ridiculous. Especially the successful
ones. The successful ones
bored me to
tears. I was sympathetic to a fault, but
it was not sympathy
that made me
so. It was a purely negative quality, a
weakness which
blossomed at the
mere sight of human misery. I never
helped any one
expecting that it
would do any good; I helped because I was helpless to do
otherwise. To want to change the condition of affairs
seemed futile to me;
nothing would be
altered, I was convinced, except by a change of heart, and
who could change
the hearts of men? Now and then a friend
was converted:
it was something
to make me puke. I had no more need of
God than He of me,
and if there were
one, I often said to myself, I would meet Him calmly and
spit in his face.
-from TROPIC OF
CAPRICORN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:47:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody and visions
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Hmmmm.
... i guess this
one is slightly more serious than last post on Cody so
probably not as
meaningful.
as i skim over
and over thru part one (i find skimming a great way to
capture the
fleetiness of the visionaryiness) i keep being struck by the
"kind"
of vision being talked about or typed about here.
this is in some
regards an "out of time" experience in the longing and
memories but
almost a daydreamy feeling to it. the
thing that i'm
amazed by and
wonder about a bit is how completely "in space" JK is
during these
periods. the daydreaminess and memory
take him away from
the now but the
imagery -- so specific -- of sensual experience in the
here of the
situation is vividly typed.
so i'm wondering
a bit about this whole notion of visions as i begin to
wind down to my
afternoon siesta. i vaguely recall
reading some junk in
some biographies
about JK's notion of vision in contrast to others but
the thing i catch
that is impressive to me is his ability to
functionally be
out-of-time yet present-in-space together AND to be able
to put it into
words.
i will probably
skim it more and more to compleat the vision.
someday i
might even move
on to Part 2 !!!!!!
hope all is well
with everyone else who have fallen into this book to
live for awhile.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:20:23 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
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From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Washington, DC Independence day
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<<beautiful>>
Maya writ:
>
><<my
mind is drawing blank after blank after blank
like an unstudied
exam where the clocks tick loud, sweating.>>
>[......]
><<I
didn't want to, and I knew I wouldn't, go home last night.
It's a new year
for me. God bless America.>>
not much to
report from on here in San Diego. spent
the fourth new
years eve in Lala
with a bunch of stoner cronies.
fireworks as promised
displayed
prominently. no frisbee :-(
homemade icecream was brown
sugar and a few
other spices sitting around talking my warm oatmeal
beer tight in my
stomach sherman's cigarettes compounding
a coming
attraction
headache.
wrapped my arms
around her. not even a kiss. nice.
no, don't know
where I'm
staying. perhaps where I've been.
missed Joyce and
young Werther at the party. sounds were
happening thru
the stereo cord,
but nothing much to note. kind of a let
down actually.
good host, good people, poor party technology. a casual affair.
what is
said. and what is not. so many comments and declarations on
the silence. my hardened leather shell crippled this
monday morning.
sick of
metaphors. woke up in the middle of the
night, dreaming I was
being watched like
suzanne and the elders. church bells and
the fucking
sound of lawn
mowers at eight in the morning.
Douglas
sailed thru the
night
how the beat was
won there
gauranteed prizes
sacrifice,
condoms, and virginity
lighters without
child safety devices
star trek toasts
that involve forgotten replies
bathrooms like
the back of a barn
latches and hooks
and unexpected piercings
>tight and
tighter thru the night
and the flag was
still there....
o save us you
scholar bound hero
carrying letters
from the headmaster
jesuit fucking
liar how I hate you
corrupting the
latch
and the branch
and the snake
skin you crawled in on
despise and mourn
kick and denounce
hate mother
fucker
ah, joyce be with
me
cody unbroken and
and and
closing the gates
with carrots
damning the works
with
unheard of
insights
no no
<<toss and
tumble>>
good morning,
good night
><<Douglas>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:24:58 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants, Obituaries, etc.
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707062131350398@msn.com>
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On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> what's
happened to all that heady jazz of the 40's to early 60's... is it
> being
stomped out by the almighty $$ catering to the masses, or is it just
> barely there
because social/cultural conditions have changed?
There's lots of
great shit out there -- as wild as that heady 40s-60s jazz,
just as great but
different too. I don't think we've entered a time where
great music is
gone; if anything there's more great music out now than ever
before --
certainly more than I could ever hear in one lifetime ("you'll
never hear it
all," <http://dsl.org/m/doc/rev/>). Music constantly changes
or else it would
all be the same thing, an infinite repeat copy of itself --
completely
sterile & boring. Which is where I think "jazz copy" music comes
from -- an
original work (such as early wild jazz) is recognized and the
patterns simply
copied and further homogenized, turning into that crap we
know. So where
it's at right now is definitely _not_ "jazz," just as modern
wild writing
isn't the Beat Generation anymore; but some great music's out
there nonetheless
and if you like old jazz I'd recommend you run out and buy
some Tortoise
LPs, especially _Millions Now Living Will Never Die_ and the
first self-titled
record. Also search out these bands: Directions in Music,
the Sea &
Cake, and the impossible to find "free jazz" stuff that Thurston
Moore's in love
with. Do a search for "free jazz" on altavista to get a list
of those records.
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:47:09 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilhelm Reich
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Sherri writ:
><<things
in JK's own life that created his personal terrors. i don't
>advocate
>becoming an
alcholic in order to write, but who's to say that that writing is
>any less real
than someone who is a near-Boddhisatva?
just a different
state... all is
One, One is all.>>
because there is
the down side, Sherri. pot, lsd,
mushrooms, alcohol,
cigarettes, wine
coolers, bubble gum, <<breathing>> <<prayer>>
<<fucking>> ah, each has it's down side. personally, I prefer blood
sugar. the best of highs. a good BS buzz will bring you up gradually,
give you peak
exercise of body and mind, good breathing, then a slight
recline and the
gradual falling out to sleep.
there might be a
one, a one end point. a concerted force
of chi, semen,
and watered down
by products of the mind, but no, well, yes, <<maybe>>
can you
sustain? can you interact? can you bring back the key from
your dreams? was driving back from Lala this Sunday
evening. couldn't
even bear to turn
on the radio. nor the tape player. a struggle even
to admit a few
hummed bars into my company. a truly
centered feeling.
chi-i-kerouac
hannah hoch dorris lessing. bought
"on the road" and
"memoirs of
a survivor" (doris lessing) as gifts for my lala lover.
feel like I'm
beginning to lead a double life. a
secret life. another
life. yes
<<thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, yes, oh yes,
yes, oh yes, oh
oh, hmmmmm [[eyes wide open, ah, exhale
>truly the
start of another snake skin long moan and die year.
>
>> paix,
>> sherri
>
>Douglas <<kick out the clowns -- MC5>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:46:38 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody and visions
David,
i'm not skimming
it, but am reading it by sinking in, if you will. i try to
let the imagery
and atmosphere wash over and surround me, swallow me up as
much as possible,
so i can try to be JK or at least as close to his head as
possible. at any rate, i'm struck the same way... he
has found a way to let
his subconcious
come to the fore while allowing what i refer to as the
objective
observer to continue to function at it's fullest - no mean feat.
the beauty of it
is that it allows him to use images/words to describe what
might otherwise
be nearly formless, nameless... a vague
sense of something...
in such a way
that my own subconcious can respond, get inside it and relate it
to some of my own
vision/remembering times, giving me more understanding.
(btw, Aion has,
somewhat unfortunately, been tabled in favor of Cody, The
Rememberer and
reference to Ulysses. i intend to return
to it during or after
what i hope will
be a group read of OTR for its anniversary.)
the other thing
that strikes me particularly in part 1 is JK's freedom and
facility of
mind. he truly is raw, balls on, out
there, no barriers, no
limits, brave
enough to follow his own uncharted paths...
perhaps that is
what makes this
book so overwhelmingly enticing and amazing: the daring to go
completely into
the unknown recesses of mind/life... how
many of us really go
that far? i, for one, find that it makes me want to be
braver, closer to the
edge than i
already am...
well i'm
beginning to ramble, so i'll shut up now.
paix,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:46:53 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: So happy to be joining the reading of
Cody
Comments: cc:
kpsnej@hotmail.com
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Hi
I'm Jens from
Denmark, and after at first asking a couple of questions, and then
just
reading this
quite extensive listserv for about a month, I am now very happy to
come
forward and
introduce myself by way of saying how happy I was to see the list's
"joint"
reading of VOC. I
have had this book for about 15 years, and while I have never
actually
read the whole
thing, that doesn't mean that I haven't started a few times...
I enjoy your
comments, and perhaps I'll make some of my own eventually.
I might make some
on Kicks Joy Darkness as well - I received this CD a few days
ago -
it's a little
hard to come by in this part of the world. So far I enjoy it
immensely,
although I tend
to listen only, I haven't really read the small print lyrics
yet. I like
the variety of
the participants; Juliana Hatfield's
take on "Silly Goofball
Pomes" is
great fun, while
Maggie Estep really rocks. Would Jack Kerouac have been a
rock'n'roller ?
Probably not, but the music works. The performances of the old
brigade:
Ginsberg,
Thompson, Hunter, Ferlinghetti, and I suppose Smith, Strummer and
Andersen,
are much as one
would expect, Burroughs never ceases to impress. Matt Dillon's
"reading"
is an unexpected
surprise, I didn't enjoy his recent performance as a Brian
Wilson-clone
in Grace of My
Heart, but this adds volumes to his character.
I am a teacher
BTW, though out of a job at the moment, and have been using
sections of
HOWL, OTR, DB and
Interzone, as well as poems by Corso, McCLure and Snyder, and
with
quite some
"success". I am hoping to publish material on the beats soon; in fact
I
already have, and
it's online:
http://www.sektornet.dk/gym/en/anglowww/kerouac.htm
- but
it's in Danish,
of course ! The illustration used is unashamedly robbed from
Levi
Asher's page.
The amount of
mail posted is impressive, I just came back from holiday a few
days ago; I
still haven't
caught up on all the posts, but now I have made one lengthy post
of my
own, and I
haven't even finished yet, because I would like to acquaint you with
poet Don
Paterson who
writes about a dog-eared Kerouac in his recently published God's
Gift to
Women(Faber and
Faber, 1997):
from 1001 Nights:
The Early Years
(Quote:) The male
muse is paid in silences. Shahrazad could not have been bought
for
less than minor
Auschwitz
Erszebet Szanto
Dawn, and I woke
up grieving for my arm
long dead below
the little drunken carcass
still shut in her
drunk dream. In mine, I recall,
I was fixing a
stamp in a savings-book, half-full
of the same
heavenly profile, a vast harem
of sisters, each
one day younger than the last...
Heaven, to bed
the same new wife each night!
And I try; but
morning always brings her back
changed, although
I recognize the room:
my puddled suit,
her dog-eared Kerouac,
the snot-stream
of a knotted Fetherlite
draped on the
wineglass. I killed the alarm,
then took her
head off with the kitchen knife
and no more
malice than I might a rose
for my daily
buttonhole. One hand, like a leaf,
still flutters in
half-hearted valediction.
I am presently
facing the wall, nose-to-nose
with Keanu
Reeves. It is a sad reflection.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:32:06 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
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<<ah, apple
pie>>
>William H.
Rose, III writ The Playful Poets:
<<
>"The
fastest
>man
alive" some say when pryed, others say he lived the way he died.
>>
...."lived
the way he died" yes. yes.
can't stop saying yes. must
keep
running. but I've stopped haven't
I. no.
still running. nyet.
59 more beat-list
posts to dig thru, then my morning prayer.
a few deep
thoughts, and
onto Ulysses and VOC if work prevails.
<<sex>>
Liked your
approach, William H. Rose, III. you
bring the complete beat.
bottom of my screen shows your "Tom Waits
impatiently I've found for
pasties,
g-strings, beer and blue" line.
Hm. step right up and speak
into the mic,
it's karaoke night::
"stuck in a
cafe when you've live too long
oh, oh, oh,
you're a rock n
roll suicide
you're not alone
looking at
yourself and you're too unfair
oh, all tangled
up
don't know who
you are or where've you been"
-- david bowie from ziggy stardust
"don't get
strung out
by the way I look
by night I'm one
hell of a
[[scholar]] har har
I'm just a sweet
transvestite
from transexual
transelvania a a
ah ha"
-- tim curry as dr. frankenfurter in
"rocky horror"
>[....] bye bye sweet transbeat-i-chi-i <<Douglas>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:42:24 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Vote For FERNANDA PIVANO SENATRICE A
VITA.
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Al
Presidente della
Repubblica Italiana
on. Oscar Luigi
Scalfaro.
"Egregio
Presidente,
visto l'articolo
59 della Costituzione della Repubblica
italiana vogliamo
proporLe di prendere in considerazione
la nomina di
senatrice a vita di Fernanda Pivano.
Fernanda Pivano,
che compie quest'anno ottanta anni, ha
dedicato la vita
alla cultura e con il suo impegno di
scrittrice e
traduttrice ha contribuito a far conoscere
la cultura e la
letteratura americana, a valorizzare
autori altrimenti
sconosciuti in Italia ed a qualificare
la cultura
italiana in America. Considerata in tutto il
mondo un simbolo
della cultura italiana, riteniamo sia
doveroso
riconoscerle questi altissimi meriti che hanno
illustrato la
nostra Patria".
Chi volesse
sottoscrivere questo appello aggiungendo il
proprio nome puo'
indirizzare a:
(address)
Gaia Maschi
via di Propaganda 16
00187 ROMA
ITALIA
(text)
"
FERNANDA PIVANO E' UNA GRANDE ITALIANA,
SIGNOR PRESIDENTE
"
(end text)
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*
Allen Ginsberg,
The Hydrogen Jukebox
Traduzione di
Fernanda Pivano (1968)
"Jukebox
all'idrogeno",
Jack Kerouac, On
the Road,
Traduzione di
Fernanda Pivano (1959)
"Sulla
Strada"
*
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:35:40 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33C083C5.1933@together.net>
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On Sun, 6 Jul
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> Hi everyone. Am twenty or so pages into taped
conversation, and in spite
> of
Ginsberg's comments on the intent of this part, I am incredibly bored
> and yes,
this is tedius going, the total disconnection of thought when
> one is high.
[snip]
> Makes me
want to go back and read parts I & II again, if only to find a
> coherent
word. Most of it is complete dribble and
not being able to
> recall
anything at all.
Good to hear
someone say this. VOC is one of my favorite novels, maybe my
favorite Kerouac
work (surely one of his most ambitious, no?), but upon my
first read found
it incredibly boring and hard to go through at points. I
had to think,
What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
[eventually]
published? Who the hell reads this?
I loved his
evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
ability to get it
on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
transcribed,
open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
spent the time
with it if it was written by Joe Blow? I think a lot of my
patience in
dealing with this work was due to my knowledge of JK, to his
reputation. I
agree with whoever said OTR was like an outline or summary of
what would be
expressed in total detail in VOC ... also OTR was his biggest
commercial
success; it's like OTR had to come first in terms of being
published because
it's readable, it presents the standard plot and structure
-- then after
fame and infamy he was free to have looser, more "free-form"
or experimental
works such as VOC published.
OTR was the book
that "inspired a generation" or whatever it says on my old
sunset paperback
copy. It did this a mere what, 5 years after it was written?
VOC, on the other
hand...
Something else
about these guys that I just now for the first time suspect
might apply to
VOC: my wife doesn't care for Ginsberg's homoerotic poetry,
citing much of
his "i want to suck a cock / your dick as hard as a rock"
brand of verse as
the work of an extremely arrogant man ("You'd _have_ to be
arrogant to put
that stuff on a page and call it poetry! _I_ could write
poetry like
that," she'd say, and come up with her own Ginsberg-style poem
that would rival
his). While Ginsberg's life is now looked at as one of
"candor"
-- that also being applied to his poetry, the effect of which did a
Good Thing for
modern poetry etc., it has a flip side, as it seems to have
inspired a
generation or three of terrible pseudo-beatnik "poets" that
nobody cares
about except their pseudo-beatnik friends. Again, Joe Blow
writes a poem
befitting his name: "i want to suck a cock." Nobody cares, but
Ginsberg does it
and everybody buys the book. Something like VOC couldn't
have been written
by just anyone, could it? And if someone did, would they
be able to get it
published (and get people to _read_ it) or would they need
20 years and the
help of a marketing agent?
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:48:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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yep, he beat it
pretty hard. the art of living. hard up my lily white
ass. ompholos deep brother, Douglas. a tower of thought. cowering
under the
pressure. Maori tribal land skinned
locks. this daylight.
thoughts are
still thoughts. don't betray me, all
honesty. <<god,
having problems
breathing a single sentence out completly>>
for silence,
Douglas [[and the dark chamber pots]]
"the map is
not the territory" babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: James Stauffer[SMTP:stauffer@PACBELL.NET]
>Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 5:14 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: "The Playful Poets"
>
>Someone
certainly didn't forget any of his perscriptions this morning.
>I take it art
is pretty grand stuff.
>
>William H.
Rose, III wrote:
>>
>> The
Playful Poets
>> by
William H. Rose, III
>>
>> Kerouac
ruck-sack back-pack Buddha-Jack beat-back run-on James Joyce
>>first-choice
>>
odd-voice free-fall flowing, you know, come on. (In cosmic slums Jack wrote
>>the bums
>> and beat
upon his clever-kicked and hobo drums in search of wide-eyed
>>lovers
who
>> would
hum.) On the road his story told in non-stop verse so nudely bold.
>>Kicks and
>> chicks
and movin' on; swimmin' in women and carryin' on. Kerouac road-knack
>>
Dharma-pack mystic poet of our past. . . .
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:57:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants,
Obituaries, etc.
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants,
Obituaries, etc.
Date: 97-07-07 14:56:44 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: stutz@dsl.org
In a message
dated 97-07-07 14:52:33 EDT, you write:
<<
> what's happened to all that heady jazz of
the 40's to early 60's... is it
> being stomped out by the almighty $$
catering to the masses, or is it just
> barely there because social/cultural
conditions have changed?
There's lots of great shit out there -- as
wild as that heady 40s-60s jazz,
just as great but different too. >>
I agree, and also
many hiphop bands use jazz loops, which one could say is a
combo of Jazz
(from beat era) and william burroughs' cut-up method (from beat
era), working
together to create something new.
-maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:05:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Jazz-poetics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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JN writ:
>> Please
brace yourself,
trying
><<As
well, certain poems of mine i view as purely jazz pieces - not with
>jazz themes,
but jazz itself - the long line, although having a rhythm
>implied, is
written without the rhythm being visual, giving the reader
>freedom to
interpret the rhythm, similar to Coltrane's rendition of the
>traditional
'Greensleeves', or any artist performing a cover piece =
>which means,
the reader himself is a creator . . . as well, certain word
>combinations
are repeated throughout a poem, similar to a repeated riff,
implying similar
rhythm for those syllables = notes . . .>>
along with the
gift "on the road" and VOC, I bought a nice used copy of
Matisse's
"Jazz" series. a medium sized
art book documenting his
>beautiful end
of life art pieces.
>
<<
> utopia
where did this hail from? where does it go? does the man
>at the
> corner hold the knife of redemption?
>>>
don't have the
patience to concentrate right now. sorry
for all those
reading this. but did spend a good couple of hours seeing
the Hannah
Hoch photomontage
exhibt at the LACMA this weekend. highly
recommend
for all those
searching for a strong woman in their life.
One of her
more famous
works, if not her defining moment, is the piece "cut with
the kitchen knife
something something thru the last days of the weimer
republic beer
belly something something" (yes, the complete title --
something like
that).
the sword of
damacles? the stinging fingers of
fate? and No, not if
you live
there. the man gives you a discount and
let's you thru the
door for
free. but there's some test or something
like that, which you
have to pass
first. firewalking, ass-kissing, or
something like that.
Haven't been
paying enough attention recently.
Hopefully the academics
can pick up the
pace and provide better directions.
>> JN
Douglas
<<oughta be at home sleeping>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:14:49 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fwd: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz
Giants, Obituaries, etc.
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970707145641_357594274@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 7 Jul
1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
> I agree, and
also many hiphop bands use jazz loops, which one could say is a
> combo of
Jazz (from beat era) and william burroughs' cut-up method (from beat
> era),
working together to create something new.
Yeah, right on --
as well as the use of feedback & noise in many bands to
produce a
"droney" effect and/or extend the sound spectrum used in the song.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:23:50 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You raise the
issue that has been troubling me through Part 1 and at
least half of
part 2. If I didn't bring my already
developed ideas
about Jack and
Neal to this book would I read it? So
far for me the
book fails badly
in this regard. Without all this outside
stuff we
bring from the
other books and bios and our own knowledge of these
people I am not
at all sure the book works. Part One is
certainly an
amazing display
of memory but we are given little reason as to why to
care about these
particular memories. I think the point
you raise about
AG's more
ephemeral stuff is also very valid. A
lot of Beat stuff falls
victim to relying
on already developed notions of what is
hip. Sort of
preaching to the
choir. JK's best stuff stands on it's
own. This one,
I am not at all
sure yet.
James Stauffer
Michael Stutz
wrote:
> had to
think, What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
> [eventually]
published? Who the hell reads this?
>
> I loved his
evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
> ability to
get it on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
> transcribed,
open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
> spent the
time with it if it was written by Joe Blow?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:35:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: god wants to know
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ok, I'm in a
cranky mood. <<sorry>>
just got another
posting from god saying that I should backchannel all
of my
postings. that I should join a
"wanna be beat" list. He's
sick
and tired of
hearing all my shit. <<yes, I am
cranky, MC, I blame this
on you!!
:-)>>
so, inquiring
minds wanna know: Is god right?
my thoughts on
the matter, quoting from the great poly sterene of the
band X-ray Specs ("o
bondage, up yours"):
some people think little girls should
be seen and not heard
but I say, o bondage, up yours [one, two, three, four]
However, except
that I would say, more pointedly with civility,
some snails think some poets should be
listed but not heard
screw this argument, let's take VOC for
dessert
cheers,
Douglas <<with 47 more posts to
filter before VOC beginning>>
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:57:35 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ok, perhaps (was power of the poet)
Comments: To:
Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199706271459.KAA24385@everest>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Fri, 27 Jun
1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> Beat
Friends,
>
> I realize I haven't been paying too
much attention to this thread, but
> when I see
statements like:
>
> > > Science has already been proven
false. God before that. Is poetry
> > >next?
>
> made, I have
to ask for some clarification. . .
Please, someone enlighten
> me, how is
it possible to disprove science? What
evidence is there to
> support that
statement? And how is it possible to
prove God false (or real
> for that
matter), if you know something the rest of us don't, please share.
> . .
>
> Bruce
>
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>
Without wanting
to put words, or ideas for that matter, into the original
author's
"mouth," I assume that he or she was referring to Nietsche's
"God
is dead."
Jenn Thompson
I'm not sure
about the science referrence, however.
Maybe from Poe?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:07:54 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: God
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199706280502450033@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, Sherri wrote:
> Why the hell
does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
> magical
powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
> little
beyond our own puny little selves?
>
> Ciao,
> Sherri
>
i couldn't agree
more. i've often said as much to friends
and collegues.
to me, God isn't
corporeal. I don't picture God as
corporeal. in fact,
to me, it's
impossible to picture God at all. The
fact that we even
attempt to name
God is puzzling. God is a mind more
powerful than we
can even begin to
conceive. Maybe.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:15:57 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Summer Reading Project
Comments: To:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33B529AA.35C6@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sat, 28 Jun
1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Dear Beetles
>
> Does anyone
have any suggestions for reading projects that might help
> restore some
minimal level of Beat focus to the list before it
> completely
evaporates into the dissapearing ozone layer with more and
> more Kozmic
Kuestions like Poesey and Godliness? Beginning to sound like
> what passes
for intellectual discussion in a freshman dorm.
>
> Dr. Sax vs.
Mocassins? A WSB thing like Western
Lands?
>
> We did a
thing on "Wichita Vortex Sutra" that was good.
>
> HELP!!
>
> We need to
find a way to keep this thing interesting without someone
> dying.
>
> J. Stauffer
>
well, this may
not be an original suggestion, but here goes:
what about
looking at E.A. Poe in comparison to Kerouac.
I'm reading
Poe again for a
class now, and once read that he (Poe) was a slight
influence on
Kerouac. I can see it. Poe's confessional elements. Also,
his prose reads
like poetry (or one could term it "prosody").
i apologize if
this suggestion sounds juvenile (freshman dorm-like), but
it's just a
thought.
Jenn Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:20:54 -0500
Reply-To: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William H. Rose, III"
<schpill@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: "Beat Streets"
Comments: cc:
tpadgett@sbuniv.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Beat Streets
by William H.
Rose, III
July 3-6, 1997
(for Al, Bill,
Jack, and Neal
and all the other
beaten rogues of the third vision)
Gesticulating tongue
The open vision
mouth
Warped muse
In a daydreamed
location
Incense, jasmine
and roses
Curling up my
head
Chair-scattered
haphazard clothes
You and I thus
bookmarked
And scattered to
the poems
Made real.
But he explained
His
Bostaon-Harvard exploits
Not as an island
But as a sea of
phrases
And I thought of
my own place
Street-wise.
I have no poetry
readings to miss
Except, of
course,
When I sit down
to beat-read.
I do not
understand
The Buddha
"om"
And have no time
for dissertations
Which I waste
intermittently.
No S.F. City
Lights this
Nor dome-vaulted
Imax rides
Nor tome-tomb
renaissanced in books
But downtowned
blue-waved
And lake-front
driven.
I sensed this
jazzed out
Poet and I
Are not so
separate
He envisions his
world
And tempts the
Muse
As I impale her
passionately
On Hamlet's sword
and poison.
Speak beat
Plaudits on far
and high
And rapid
innocuous accolades
For all the
writers readers.
Have you heard
the voice of reason?
Are angels coming
back now?
A reunion of
sorts?
Automatic writing
In beat
technology
Beat pornography
For Kerouac's
scattered kicks
In Ginsbergesque
howls trebled
And Neal's crazy
visions cut-up.
Naked lunched and
injected
Non-menthol
heroin
Roach powder
Interzone runaway routine
At the foot of
release.
Where does the
paranoia of words begin
And the addiction
end?
Oh, and Bill.....
They're still watching you!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:56:54 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: God
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Jennifer writ:
><<i
couldn't agree more. i've often said as
much to friends and collegues.
>to me, God
isn't corporeal. I don't picture God as
corporeal. in fact,
>to me, it's
impossible to picture God at all. The
fact that we even
>attempt to
name God is puzzling. God is a mind more
powerful than we
can even begin to
conceive. Maybe.>>
Well, I keep
trying to get off this thread. God,
however, has my name
and number. Keeps dragging me back to a certain
reality. <<and I thank
him,
sincerely>> that process be
damned, we are expected to live and
die by the
reality of our posts. our actions. and in that manner, no,
god is
corporeal. He is quite real and if need
by, I can direct you
towards him.
However, I have a
sneaky suspicion that my God is not yours.
or yours.
and yours. and mine.
>
>> Jenn
Thompson
Douglas
<<eating>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:10:47 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
while i can see
both your points, i think Cody can stand on its own, just as
Ulysses
did... once one realizes what's being
done, it's amazing writing,
even without the
benefit of "who" the author is.
granted, though, the knowing
does increase
it's understanding and depth for the reader.
maybe it all comes
down to how one
reads it? (it's almost like reading
poetry to me.)
hhhmmmmm...
a bigger question
is begged, though. does it have to stand
on its own?
perhaps it could
be viewed as part of a trilogy...OTR,
VOC, VOG. dunno, just
speculating
here...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Stauffer
Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 12:23 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
You raise the
issue that has been troubling me through Part 1 and at
least half of
part 2. If I didn't bring my already
developed ideas
about Jack and
Neal to this book would I read it? So
far for me the
book fails badly
in this regard. Without all this outside
stuff we
bring from the
other books and bios and our own knowledge of these
people I am not
at all sure the book works. Part One is
certainly an
amazing display
of memory but we are given little reason as to why to
care about these
particular memories. I think the point
you raise about
AG's more
ephemeral stuff is also very valid. A
lot of Beat stuff falls
victim to relying
on already developed notions of what is
hip. Sort of
preaching to the
choir. JK's best stuff stands on it's
own. This one,
I am not at all
sure yet.
James Stauffer
Michael Stutz
wrote:
> had to
think, What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
> [eventually]
published? Who the hell reads this?
>
> I loved his
evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
> ability to
get it on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
> transcribed,
open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
> spent the
time with it if it was written by Joe Blow?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:30:48 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707072113520176@msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 7 Jul
1997, Sherri spoke of VOC:
> (it's almost
like reading poetry to me.)
Yeah, VERY much
so. It's like a hybrid between poetry and prose -- or is all
good lit like
this? Hmm... [thinking out loud] do the best lit works (prose)
read like poetry
anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:01:57 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Caro diario.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear diary,
i today have read
a very poetic phrase in "On the Road":
"climbing
trees to get into attics of buddies
where he spent
days
reading or hiding
from the
law" written by jack keroauc depicting the life
of NEAL
CASSADY, reading or hiding
very poetic
reading or hiding
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:06:29 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I tend to agree
with Sherri and also see the points of the others.
Joyce is a good
analogy. Who would read Ulysses or
Finnegans Wake? Answer:
a lot of people.
I think it does
need to be seen as part of Kerouac's oeurve.
Yet it can
stand alone, but
like Ulyssess and Finnegans wake was not meant to only
stand alone.
It tries to do
more than only tell a story but also to capture an essence
(many essences)
as well.
It is also a
great catalog.
I don't have a
copy of the book anymore. You guys've
inspired me to hit the
library after
work.
At 08:10 PM
7/7/97 UT, Sherri wrote:
>while i can
see both your points, i think Cody can stand on its own, just as
>Ulysses
did... once one realizes what's being
done, it's amazing writing,
>even without
the benefit of "who" the author is.
granted, though, the knowing
>does increase
it's understanding and depth for the reader.
maybe it all comes
>down to how
one reads it? (it's almost like reading
poetry to me.)
>hhhmmmmm...
>
>a bigger
question is begged, though. does it have
to stand on its own?
>perhaps it
could be viewed as part of a
trilogy...OTR, VOC, VOG. dunno, just
>speculating
here...
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Stauffer
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 12:23 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
>
>You raise the
issue that has been troubling me through Part 1 and at
>least half of
part 2. If I didn't bring my already
developed ideas
>about Jack
and Neal to this book would I read it?
So far for me the
>book fails
badly in this regard. Without all this
outside stuff we
>bring from
the other books and bios and our own knowledge of these
>people I am
not at all sure the book works. Part One
is certainly an
>amazing
display of memory but we are given little reason as to why to
>care about
these particular memories. I think the
point you raise about
>AG's more
ephemeral stuff is also very valid. A
lot of Beat stuff falls
>victim to
relying on already developed notions of
what is hip. Sort of
>preaching to
the choir. JK's best stuff stands on
it's own. This one,
>I am not at
all sure yet.
>
>James Stauffer
>
>Michael Stutz
wrote:
>
>> had to
think, What makes this so great? How the hell did he get this
>>
[eventually] published? Who the hell reads this?
>>
>> I loved
his evocative descriptions, mastery of inner thought-voice and
>> ability
to get it on paper -- just long thoughts for hours nonstop,
>>
transcribed, open, honest, done just to do. But would I have read it and
>> spent
the time with it if it was written by Joe Blow?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:09:41 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: God
Comments: To:
"Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970707205654Z-279@sd-mail.sd.oee s.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:56 PM
7/7/97 -0700, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
>Jennifer
writ:
>
>><<i
couldn't agree more. i've often said as
much to friends and collegues.
>>to me,
God isn't corporeal. I don't picture God
as corporeal. in fact,
>>to me,
it's impossible to picture God at all.
The fact that we even
>>attempt
to name God is puzzling. God is a mind
more powerful than we
>can even
begin to conceive. Maybe.>>
>
>Well, I keep
trying to get off this thread. God,
however, has my name
>and
number. Keeps dragging me back to a
certain reality. <<and I thank
>him,
sincerely>> that process be
damned, we are expected to live and
>die by the
reality of our posts. our actions. and in that manner, no,
>god is
corporeal. He is quite real and if need
by, I can direct you
>towards him.
>
>However, I
have a sneaky suspicion that my God is not yours. or yours.
>and
yours. and mine.
>>
>>> Jenn
Thompson
>
>Douglas
<<eating>>
There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:25:26 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: God
MIME-Version: 1.0
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7bit
Sara Feustle
wrote:
>
> At 01:56 PM
7/7/97 -0700, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
> >Jennifer
writ:
> >
>
>><<i couldn't agree more.
i've often said as much to friends and collegues.
> >>to
me, God isn't corporeal. I don't picture
God as corporeal. in fact,
> >>to
me, it's impossible to picture God at all.
The fact that we even
>
>>attempt to name God is puzzling.
God is a mind more powerful than we
> >can even
begin to conceive. Maybe.>>
> >
> >Well, I
keep trying to get off this thread. God,
however, has my name
> >and
number. Keeps dragging me back to a
certain reality. <<and I thank
> >him,
sincerely>> that process be
damned, we are expected to live and
> >die by
the reality of our posts. our
actions. and in that manner, no,
> >god is
corporeal. He is quite real and if need
by, I can direct you
> >towards
him.
> >
> >However,
I have a sneaky suspicion that my God is not yours. or yours.
> >and
yours. and mine.
> >>
> >>>
Jenn Thompson
> >
> >Douglas
<<eating>>
>
> There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
> >
The Committee
will seriously consider all of your beliefs and
disbeliefs.
sincerely,
The Committee.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:50:15 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: JK tribute: kicks joy darkness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Marie writ:
><<g'nightadrien!(it's
now morning on east coast) when you listen again,
>listen as
carefully to michael stipe's "our gang" which has lodged in my
>head and
won't get out. how carefully he enuciates (a miracle, for those
>who listened
to REM a few years back), but also how
the music adds to the
little scene and
to me reflects back to dr sax bedroom imagination.>>
regarding Stipes
annunciation, I liked how at the end, he starts to fade
away. It becomes hard to hear him as if if if the
dream is ending and a
decision has come
nigh. Hell or Heaven awaits?! Surely this is
blurring and
fading is intentional, yes?
>> mc
Douglas
<<cruel, gruel, cog>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:04:30 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: greeting from jenn - disregard crap at
beginning(mailing error!:))
---------------------
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Date: 97-07-07
03:10:37 EDT
The original
message was received at Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
from
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Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul
1997 01:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Tread37@aol.com
Message-ID:
<970707014140_-57794407@emout04.mail.aol.com>
To:
BEAT-L@cunyvmcuny.edu
Subject: greeting
from Jenn
hello all
involved with this mailing list. i just
became a member two days
ago and am
thrilled at all of the insightful and intelligent mail i have
received. i would really like to become an active
member of this group, but
i am a little
hazy on how exactly i can participate. i
guess i'll just have
to jump into the middle
and hope i can swim. i have to confess
that, yes, i
am merely a
college student and have very recently discovered the wonders of
beat
writing. but it was love at first sight
i must say, and i am trying to
suck up as much
info. as i can. i am currently reading
OTR and JK letters
(1940-1956). i also have been reading as much AG and JK
poetry as i can get
my hands on. The First Third and Visions of Cody are next
on my list. all i
am saying now is
that i apologize if i ask stupid and naiive questions, but
soon i will fall
into the swing of things, so bare with me!!:)
my first two
offers for discussion may seem a lttle graphic and severe, but
their raw
innocence and lust and love realy struck me: AG's Many Loves and
Please Master
(1968). Many Loves really brought out
for me the intense love
that AG possessed
for NC and how freely this love made him
a sort of slave
to it and in turn
to Neal. But the innocence and
admiration that came with
the experience is
so well defined by the newness and apprehension depicted as
they begin this
exploration. Please Master accomplishes
this with a
different, yet
equally effective approach. the raw,
graphic nature of the
piece shows the
extent to how allen was a slave to this passion, and the
cycle of it is
thoroughly illustrated through the repetition. yet the love he
felt for neal is
so clear through his blind obedience and willingness to
submit to neal's
(as well as his) wishes, as unacceptable as they might seem.
he treats it as a priviledge to be able to
share this intimacy, however
purely lustful
and physical the graphic language might initially convey.
signing off for
now,
jenn (JF)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:32:24 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: more dreams
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: more dreams
Date: 97-07-07 19:32:06 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: pelliott@sunflower.com
In a message
dated 97-07-07 17:07:59 EDT, you write:
<<
Maya, i fail to understand the beat
connection. Is this related or in
reference to a book or something. respectfully
patricia >>
Patricia: this is
something I've been wondering about, just thought I'd use
your comment as a
jumping-off point to ask the list in general.
i'm afraid there is no direct beat
reference/connection. You didn't
like it? Sorry.
If you want i
could say that i was exploring the beat method of pulling
together the
conscious and unconsious. And the cut-up
method of narrative
(yes, cut-up can
be used with narrative, not only words) and of images,
started by
burroughs and brion gysin. In fact,
dreams are often dreamt in
cut-up, where
images/thoughts/feelings are juxtaposed and associated in a
seemingly
'disorderly' manner because they make a different kind of sense
than when you're
awake.
In general, I try to experiment with
words on this list, and I try to
do so in a way
that reflects the depth of the influence the beats have had on
me. If this is not an acceptable thing to do on
this list, please let me
know and i will
cease doing so.
Is this list only for discussing the
beats' persons and writings or
also for
exploring their ideas, and, perhaps, applying them to other, new and
different,
things?
Perhaps those of us who are serious
writers/artists/whatevers could
start a new list
in which we discuss beat theory in relation to our own work.
Or we could form two sides on beat-l,
the Artists vs.
the Critics
please let me
know if i should take my dreams/poems/etc elsewhere or at least
where I should
shove them.
hasta la vista,
maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:49:48 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@OTC.USOC.CCHUB.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: God
Comments: To:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Sara Feustle and
david rhaesa wrote (respectively):
> There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
>The Committee
will seriously consider all of your beliefs and
>disbeliefs.
You mean god is not the pooh-bear? My daughter and I are greatly
confused and awaiting the Committee's
decision before burning the
hundred acre woods and skunking out the
heretics; wondering how roast
piglet would go with donkey giblets.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:04:50 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: opium=buddha of the masses
i once heard the
"om" of the universe, tripping on 3 hits of
bart-simpson-stamped
acid in New York city. it was under a
tree in
Riverside Park,
around 113th street. I mean, that wasn't
the SOURCE or
anything, that's
just where it came to me.
I felt like He
(Buddha) was calling me and asking me to come.
I was
suspicious
(wouldn't you?) and declined, but only after seriously considering
it. I mean it's
not the kind of opportunity one gets every day, to become a
boddhisatva. I knew it would be a lot of work, constantly
having to, like,
convert people
and stuff. You know, the Unenlightened
ones.
He said it was my
only chance, and after he faded away, i wondered if i had
done the right
thing. What would have happened to me if
i had said yes?
Just to try it
out, i tried to get my friends to hear the "Om", but they just
looked at me
funny.
Missed vocation?
Drug-induced hallucination? Perhaps a combination?
(((((((((((((((((((((((nobody
knows))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:10:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Bentz: Measures, Jazz Giants,
Obituaries, etc.
"The Creator
has a master plan."
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:20:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a poetess in the early peace movement
Re: Denise Levertov.
Much better!
Though I can't get the image of dazzling trucks. And now it is
not the old who
have their own linguistic privacies!
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:24:26 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Scope of Beat-l
There have been
some questions recently concerning the scope of Beat-l.
As it states in
the "Welcome" message, "Beat-l is an online discussion
forum devoted to
the study of the lives and works of the writers of the
Beat Generation,
especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William
Burroughs. In addition to serving as an outlet for
discussion, Beat-l
is intended to
facilitate scholarly communication and to serve as a
bulletin board or
calendar for poetry readings, announcements of new
publications,
upcoming conferences, and related events.
It is NOT
a chat room.
Recent posts have tended to veer too far in that
direction. Postings to Beat-l should be of interest to a
substantial
portion of
listmembers. During a discussion, a
thread may emerge that
is not directly
related to the list's concerns but that may be of
interest to two
or three members. Such a topic should be
taken off the
list and
discussed privately by those interested parties. Likewise,
comments directed
at a specific listmember rather than the group as a
whole should be
sent directly to that person. Recently,
someone asked
about posting
poetry to the list. This can be a gray
area. Certainly,
those poems
written in tribute to Allen Ginsberg after his death were
appropriate.
Likewise, poems written on Beat thems or in a Beat style
might be of
interest to the list as a whole. I guess
common sense has
to prevail. Fair of not, most people on the list would
probably enjoy a
poem by Gary
Snyder but they might not be as receptive to work by John
Doe. I doubt that a poem now and again will be
objected to by most
listmembers but
we don't want to turn the list into "dial a poem."
Also, please be
careful about not posting copyrighted material to the
list (including
poems) without the author's permission.
For those new
to the list, I
will repost the "Guidelines for Discourse" that were
developed to
recently to bring some order and civility to our
discussions. Look for this in the next day or two. Those already
familiar with the
guidelines can hit the delete key.Thanks for your
attention and for
your continued interest in Beat-l.
William Gargan,
Listowner
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:56:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
Good questions,
Michael. Do you really want them answered? We'd have to pack
a lunch for this
beatnik picknik, naked or not.
I don't have VOC.
Never read it. My wife read it when she was a teenager and
liked it. I've
listened to the Krono disc that Allen gave me. Too hysterical
for my tastes. A
young woman helping me with my mss brought me Holy Soul
Jelly Roll cd .
I'm listening to it a little at a time. Some of the poems
I've heard read
before. Read with Allen on some of them. I'm trying to get a
"time-perspective"
on them. I've heard the first cd, and the poem I like best
so far is Van
Gogh's Ear. But your wife's comments are valid about the
'cock.' The tone
reminds me of when I was a little kid
and another boy
wanted to get
under the bed with me to "play". There is a sense of juvenalia
to Allen's
homoeroticism that he seems to be hiding from that same "grown-up
Amerika'' that he
seemed to succumb to.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:06:17 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: God
"That book
is good
Which puts me in
a working mood.
Unless to Thought
is added Will,
Apollo is an
imbecile."
Emerson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:13:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
In a message
dated 97-07-07 16:55:48 EDT, you write:
<< I also
did a search on Charles Bukowski: Three email addresses
> Charles Plymell: No
matches >>
I have no email
address, just cveditions@aol.com or
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:38:12 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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> Michael
Stutz wrote:
>
> Good to hear someone say this. VOC is one of
my favorite novels, maybe
> my
> favorite
Kerouac work (surely one of his most ambitious, no?), but upon
> my
> first read
found it incredibly boring and hard to go through at points.
I liked parts I
and II, can sort of see where K is going with this, and I
think I will
probably be fine when I get beyond the tape.
Ginsberg
writes about this
section"
"Thus the
tape may be read not as hung-up and boring which it sometimes
is, but as a
spontaneous Ritual performed once & never repeated, in full
consciousness
that every yawn & syllable uttered would be eternal--and
here it is
immortalized after all by the Great Rememberer and his Cast of
Characters
remembering themselves while still alive.
Dramatically, what's interesting is
that we catch Neal at a time
when
self-questioning and early exhaustion of lyric love, self-abuse,
have dried up his
expositional flow & he's considering (as many do at his
age) the futility
& repetitiveness of most of his own talk.
This is a
moment when
Kerouac is expecting Saintly Discourse; a moment frustrating
for all. Also at a time early in T-consciousness in
U.S. when Neal was
smoking
experimentally excessively, that is all the time. & experiencing
such aphasia or
language disconnection & emotional alienation as that
experiment might
cause, as well as awe and emptinesxs of mind which
simultaneous is
both mystical Virtue, & psychological pathology. 'Man
I'm
thinking. I've just spent the last
minute thinking and I had a
complete
block.'"
I have trouble
with "ritual" and the "every yawn and syllable being
eternal"
part. And also, from what AG said, it
seems that K had more of
a vision for this
part than actually developed, because Neal was so high
and
disconnected. The hero (Neal) talking
here, can't express himself
with his own
words. Where does that leave K in terms
of the hero
expressing
himself? K has to do it for him later on
by developing this
theme. It leaves
K with the necessity of taking the writing back to prose
and back to a
romanticization of the hero again, which I assume we get
into again after
this part. I don't have trouble with
there being few
actions here,
with visions, or unconscious language, only with the idea
that every
syllable is eternal simply because it comes from the mouth of
the hero."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:03:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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> Michael
Stutz wrote:
> Something
else about these guys that I just now for the first time
>suspect
> might apply
to VOC: my wife doesn't care for Ginsberg's homoerotic
>poetry,
> citing much
of his "i want to suck a cock / your dick as hard as a
>rock"
> brand of
verse as the work of an extremely arrogant man ("You'd _have_
>to be
> arrogant to
put that stuff on a page and call it poetry! _I_ could
>write
> poetry like
that," she'd say, and come up with her own Ginsberg-style
>poem
> that would
rival his). While Ginsberg's life is now looked at as one of
>
"candor" -- that also being applied to his poetry, the effect of
which
>did a
> Good Thing
for modern poetry etc., it has a flip side, as it seems to
>have
> inspired a
generation or three of terrible pseudo-beatnik "poets" that
> nobody cares
about except their pseudo-beatnik friends. Again, Joe Blow
> writes a
poem befitting his name: "i want to suck a cock." Nobody
>cares, but
> Ginsberg
does it and everybody buys the book. Something like VOC
>couldn't
> have been
written by just anyone, could it? And if someone did, would
>they
> be able to
get it published (and get people to _read_ it) or would they
>need
> 20 years and
the help of a marketing agent?
>
First of all, I
don't think VOC fits into this category.
I think K did
have a vision of
his own for the work that was meant to perhaps take
language out of
time in much the same way that Joyce did; that he wanted
to take many only
3-4 human actions in the whole work and have those
dispersed with
all of the out-of-time memories and unconscious material
that daily floats
through the mind? Did he accomplish
that? I won't form
an opinion on
that till I get to the end.
But I think what you are talking about
with regards to Ginsberg
is a different
thing. A lot of people disregard AG's
poetry because they
find it
self-indulgent and arrogant that he would write about, for
example, his
cock. Does that leave it open for anyone
to call
himself/herself a
poet and start writing about genitalia and think that
that makes them a
great poet? Any poet needs to ground
their
intellectualness
in their humanness. For Ginsberg,
perhaps there is a
line between
self-indulgence and self-expressiveness.
He broke barriors
in modern poetry
but it wasn't because he just wrote about the human body
or
sexuality. Even what many call formless
had a larger structural
form, all part of
a larger framework.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:29:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Timothy K.
Gallaher wrote:
>
> Joyce is a
good analogy. Who would read Ulysses or
Finnegans Wake? >
> Answer:a lot
of people.
>
> I think it
does need to be seen as part of Kerouac's oeurve. Yet it
> can
> stand alone,
but like Ulyssess and Finnegans wake was not meant to only
> stand alone.
>
> It tries to
do more than only tell a story but also to capture an
>essence
> (many
essences) as well.
>
> It is also a
great catalog.
>
I'm not sure yet
what I think about this book standing alone.
I think
it's best to be
familiar with Kerouac before reading it.
In the same
line of thought,
I don't think many people would make it through
Finnegans Wake
without being familiar with Joyce and having read his
earlier stuff,
especially Ulysses. As it is even some
people who love
Ulysses find
Finnegans Wake beyond them. What I would
like to address is
whether Kerouac
had in mind his own version of a Joycean work here. The
similarity in the
out of time material is striking, but there are huge
differences in
writing methods. Joyce was a mastermind
when it came to
construction. He revised endlessly. He wanted the reader to think about
every single word
in and out of consciousness. I think
Kerouac often
attempts this
kind of mastermind plan but the spontaneous prose throws
him off. He's
constantly playing with the idea but can't quite pull it
off. The highness of the characters in part three
is quite a different
kind of
consciousness as compared to dream-like unconscious images that
take things out
of time and place. I keep hoping for
more of a flow
between the
parts. It seems like the visions should flow without total
disconnection at
any point.
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:05:02 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Neil
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Someone came
close to touching on this, but why is Neal the hero? To me
Jack is the
hero. He is the one that actually does
it. I never find my
self liking the
image Jack projects of Neal. He would
not be very
likable, and is a
person in action. But for what or
why. He must have
been a very
charasmatic person when you were with him.
But his actions
tend not to be
likable.
I wonder if WSB,
Charles or others that knew him found him to be a
"hero"
type, or just a hustler.
I always saw a
homosexual type attachment, and a longing to be willing
to do what Neal
did. Jack talks about it, writes it, but
push come to
shove, he would
go down and buy a ticket rather than ride the box car.
So, there is a
desire to be "real" instead of a writer. Dylan said
somewhere he
wished he'd been a doctor so he could have done some good
in the world.
But, Jack is the
prophet. He took all he saw and learned
and turned it
into something
bigger stretching it out to include every leave. He even
pays homage to
Thomas Wolfe in the middle of the food scene.
So when he
is writing, his
confidence flows and grows.
VoC is his
attempt to record reality just the way he saw it. It is
worthy.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:10:18 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody ---- the letter
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that is Quite the
letter.
gotta wonder
though. if i got that letter in the mail
part of me would
be saying:
"that fish
has caught the bait for life. he'll do
anything for me now!"
devil in me i
guess.
jack's friendship
with Cody just seems so naive.
my glass house is
shattering around me as i type.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: HST
Finally caught up
with HST site. This was who my new friend helping me
with my mss went
to see in NYC? Warmed over edge. The interview with P. J.
O'Rourke was cute. P.J. used to sit in prof. Coleman's
class across from me
all pimply and
afraid to say anything about the beats
or respond to whuts
happenin in the
academe. Now the profs take him for
gospel right next to New
Yorker , Look,
Ma I'm hip.Tired of this dated crap.
Reading Carl Watson's
Empire of the
Birds tonight. He said the only religion
left is "Be Careful".
At least he's current. Who wanted to compare
Poe? My, my, can't get by.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:22:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
In a message
dated 97-07-07 22:28:32 EDT, you write:
<< It seems like the visions should flow without
total
disconnection at any point. >>
Just a thread
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:35:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody ---- the letter
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>RACE ---
wrote:
>
> that is
Quite the letter.
>
> gotta wonder
though. if i got that letter in the mail
part of me would
> be saying:
>
> "that
fish has caught the bait for life. he'll
do anything for me
> now!"
>
> devil in me
i guess.
>
> jack's
friendship with Cody just seems so naive.
>
> my glass
house is shattering around me as i type.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
I agree about
Jack's friendship kinda being naive.
look at page 39:
"anybody who
knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about in my
secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows of time
and personality,, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the way with
me...I'm completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves and digs
your greatness completely."
What more can you
possibly say to someone? Was Jack's
trust ever
misplaced? There
were a couple places in OTR where Jack said, 'I'm done
with you,' but he
always came back. I do think, as I said
before, that
to some extent
Jack's will to live is intertwined with Neal's sense of
life. Then again,
maybe growing up in America later than these guys,
makes us see
things more corruptly???
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:28:47 -0400
Reply-To: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
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would the
listowner please contact me privately or could a
beat-l member
please send me an address where the
listowner could
be reached. it's imperative that i get
ahold
of him.
thanks,
andrew
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:56:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody ---- the letter
not only more
corruptly, but more cynically and selfishly.
there is a beauty
in loving in this
pure and innocent way that perhaps none of us are capable of
any more. and the
feeling derived from it is unparalleled.
innocence was
something that greatly appealed to JK, it seems to me: the way
he refers to
young girls and what seems to thrill him about them, his
comparison of the
"Negro cat" in the subway (pg 19, my edition) to
Dostoyevsky's
Prince Myshkin ( i can't think of a more endearing, sweet,
innocent,
prophet-like character in literature, at least not at this moment).
and, in fact,
isn't it that very innocence/romanticism that we adore in JK in
the first
place? what is more intriguing than a
great mind blended with a
heart also
capable of sheer simplicity of feeling?
and doesn't hero
worship require a certain innocence? JK
knew NC's many
flaws, but chose
to love the greatness in him, perhaps as his alterego.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 11:35 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Cody ---- the letter
>RACE ---
wrote:
>
> that is
Quite the letter.
>
> gotta wonder
though. if i got that letter in the mail
part of me would
> be saying:
>
> "that
fish has caught the bait for life. he'll
do anything for me
> now!"
>
> devil in me
i guess.
>
> jack's
friendship with Cody just seems so naive.
>
> my glass
house is shattering around me as i type.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
I agree about
Jack's friendship kinda being naive.
look at page 39:
"anybody who
knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about in my
secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows of time
and personality,, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the way with
me...I'm completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves and digs
your greatness completely."
What more can you
possibly say to someone? Was Jack's
trust ever
misplaced? There
were a couple places in OTR where Jack said, 'I'm done
with you,' but he
always came back. I do think, as I said
before, that
to some extent
Jack's will to live is intertwined with Neal's sense of
life. Then again,
maybe growing up in America later than these guys,
makes us see
things more corruptly???
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:11:28 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
Mime-Version: 1.0
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AND PS: OK POETS of BEAT-LIST, -- LISTEN UP!
the snails have
us running for cover
it's time to
organize and develop our own channels
I'm still trying
to figure out who is out there
in the 200+ of us
on this list
as the beat-list
introduction says,
let's talk about opportunities
to publish
let's talk about
beat poetics, the beat process
poets we like and
why <<loved that vs-Elliot
thread!>>
the visual and
sound arts of these writers and [[people
the mistakes they
made and why certain poems are important
and if we're
gonna stay and be civil, beat-list poets
let's keep our
posts on topic. right?
or damn straight
close right on, near it!!
maybe stick to a
universal thread title or two
[[e.g., freshman
debates, dear diarie, notes to myself
that can be
easily marked as deletable, scrap heap, expungeable
our process of
being beat is different than an academic approach
it takes practice
and focused energy to bring our shoes closer
we have to be
able to make mistakes and stand by them, publically
to flaunt our
foibles, our speed chases, our random pastimes
our life in the
beat molde, the "wanna be beat" list
isn't a half bad
idea after all beating breathing beating hard
w/kerouacs, ginsberg,
burroughs. patti smith. etc.
I've thought
about this a lot.
have obsessed
about it really,
honesty, probably
too much
but I depend on
this list
and the poets,
friends, and <<ahem>> scholars therein
for the exchange
of punctuation, prose styles, and beat licks
that gets me up
in the morning
[[for the visions
of cody
----- I look
forward to getting off this thread ========
----- sorry to
have taken up your precious time ========
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:50:06 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ceasefire #3
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im'
pathfinder
ranger
sojourner
im' thinking
Shhh Shhh
Uhmm Uhmm
is there life?
is there
intellingent
life?
im' back
my name is
sojourner
Shhh Shhh
Uhmm Uhmm
Shhh Shhh
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:52:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: cody II
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not much
discussion about cody part 2; wonder if it is because there is a
sense of been
there/read that before. between the timeless geography of the
soul of part I
and the densely unmitigated dialogue of burp and fart and
scratch of part
III?
anyhoo:
there is a
longish quote on pgs 98-100 of macgraw hill edition: from which
i will snip and
snap ,[all of elipses mine] it seems to
me the heart of
part II and
perhaps the heart of JK always in his books: (and once again we
are in the world
of colors, primarily but not exclusively brown. passage is
his experience as
signing on for merchant marine as he continues to have
visions of cody
having visions)! (i've snipped the merchant marine reality
to focus in on
JK's perceptions of realities:
brown halls of
men--now by god many hours and events later i am finally
entrenched in the
vision that i re-discovered my soul with, the 'crwoded
events of men'
only now it's me, myself smack in it....I saw 'brown bar'
not in jest, red
neons or pink ones too shine in the smoke and reflect off
dark browned
panels, the beer is brown, table tops, the lights are white
but embrowned,
the tile floor too ....now what i'm going to do is this,
think things over
one by one blowing on the vsions of them and also
excitedly
discussing them as with friends as i did last night joyously
drunk in the west
end.....
(lots of brown
ale, brown sighns white capped seamen's halls)
,,, now i'm going
to be interested in these things al my life but in order
to really involve
myself as a man on the other level of
man-to-man
communication i'm
also going to talk about theset things with people if i
can, like for
instance Deni's beautiful story last night...i'm going to
talk about thesse
things with guys but the main thing i suppose will be
this lifelong
monologue which is begun in my
mind-lifelong complete
contemplation--what
ilse on earth do i really know unless i'm depriving
myself of kinds
of knowledge that would bring out those qualities in
me....--last night
in the west end bar was mad(can't think fast enough)(do
need a
recorder)...then i could keep the most complete record in the world
which in itself
could be divided into twenty massive and pretty interesting
volumes of tapes
describing activities everywhere and excitements and
thoughts of mad
valuable me and it would really have a shape but a crazy
bit shape yet
just as logical as a novel by proust because i do keep
harkening back
though i might be nervous on the mike and even tell too
much)....now
events of this moment are so mad that of course i can't keep
up but worse
they're as though they were fond memories that from my
peaceful hacienda
or proust-bed i was trying to recall in toto but couldn't
because like
the real world so vast, so delugingly
vast, i wish i god had
made me vaster
myself--i wish i had ten personalities, one hundred golden
brains, far more
ports than are ports, more energy than the river, but i
must struggle to
live it all, and on foot, and in these little crepesole
shoes, ALL of it or give up completely.
____
what i see here
is JK's edgy am i hero/am i narrator
thread which is seen
more clearly here
than in OTR.also, in the face of the
visionary cody, he
wishes he were
bigger smarter faster ... which i noted in part I: the
dreams in which
cody were not center of attention, cody letting others
talk, etc. among
other things, like seeing his work like proust, and the
recorder wish
brings us to the infamous burp fart space out tape of part III
more to come, but
the sunshine beckons
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:54:31 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Neal
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R. Bentz Kirby
wrote:
>
> Someone came
close to touching on this, but why is Neal the hero? To
>me
> Jack is the
hero. He is the one that actually does
it. I never find
>my
> self liking
the image Jack projects of Neal. He
would not be very
> likable, and
is a person in action. But for what or
why. He must
>have
> been a very
charasmatic person when you were with him.
But his actions
> tend not to
be likable.
>
> I wonder if
WSB, Charles or others that knew him found him to be a
>
"hero" type, or just a hustler.
>
I think there's
no doubt that both Kerouac and Ginsberg saw Neal as a
hero, way beyond
the homosexual attachment kind of thing.
Ginsberg
writes in Howl,
"NC, secret hero of these poems,"
and here in VOC, the
whole work is set
up with Neal as the hero. But it's true,
if you set
the lives together,
it brings up some questions: What did
Neal
accomplish in his
life? What did Ginsberg and Kerouac
accomplish in
their's in
comparison? No doubt if none of these
guys had met Neal, they
would have still
been writers, but how much different? In
many ways,
early on, they
wrote about life through the experience of being around
Neal living
life. To some people Neal was a hustler,
in every sense of
the word, but I
have often thought it was in a good way, a way to get
what he wanted,
needed without hurting anyone else. I
agree, it's time
to hear from some
people that knew Neal personally, and some that have
read stuff that
Neal wrote.
DC
> VoC is his
attempt to record reality just the way he saw it. It is
> worthy.
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:39:46 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: rumors of my death
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Dear Beat-L
Friends: July 7, 1997
As Mark Twain said, "Rumors of my
death have been greatly exaggerated."
I'm back briefly because it appalls me
to see the kind of lies that
just got printed
here by one Ms. Diane De Rooy, in my absence.
According to Ms. DeRooy, quoting Ms.
Mayo, "there is nothing
original in this
[MEMORY BABE] collection" at U Mass Lowell. According to
Ms. De Rooy, Mr.
Rod Anstee agrees totally with this.
Oh no, nothing original? What would you call 3 drafts of Memory
Babe, in my own
handwriting and typewriting? What would
you call THOUSANDS
of pages of my
own handwritten notes? What would you
call 100 letters
written to me by
the likes of Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Burroughs, Snyder,
Holmes, Carolyn
Cassady, et al. (in their handwriting and typewriting NOT
XEROX)? 60 of those have been stolen, but about 40
still remain (as far as
I know) in the
collection.
What would you call 300 original
interviews, taped firsthand with
300 different
people? Not copies of the interviews,
but the ORIGINAL TAPES
THEMSELVES?
All this is not original material?
Now bethink yourself (as they used to
say). If Ms. De Rooy and Ms.
Mayo and
(apparently) Mr. Anstee can lie about the content of the
collection, might
they not also be capable of lying about the fact that
people are being
prevented from viewing and listening to it?
How can these people lie so
baldly? Is it just because Nicosia got
offline for a few
weeks to try to get some work done?
Since I obviously can't keep up with
the Beat-List right now on a
regular basis,
and still make my writing commitments (Veterans book and
autobiography for
CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS), I can only appear here
sporadically, but
if anyone has any questions when such outrageous claims
are made, please
feel free to email me directly. Dirk
Vulgate need not apply.
Thanks and my best to everyone, Gerry
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:34:22 +0200
Reply-To: Per Kjellin
<kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Per Kjellin
<kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: 411
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Did you found God
on the Four11?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:55:31 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: [Fwd: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.]
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My post that lead
to Lisa's flame.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------8D5FDB9EB84469087559EB16
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<33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun
1997 18:28:21 -0400
From: "R.
Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz kirby
X-Mailer: Mozilla
4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mail to
BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:
suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
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Has anyone on the
list ever heard of Diane De Rooy. I ran
a 411 search
and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me. So, I
am very curious
about this. I know that there have been
phantom posts
from aol before
and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out.
If Diane is
a real person, I
apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
and the timing
makes it even more so. I apologize, for
an off topic
post.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------8D5FDB9EB84469087559EB16--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:33:16 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
Dear Michael:
Your discussion
of the baggage we carry as to WHO is writing something,
rather than what
has been written itself, really hits a chord.
Your example
of Ginsberg reminds me of the January 1994 reading we
attended, prior to
which we first
met each other in the autograph line at Shaman Drum Bookshop.
I can honestly say that his reading of HOWL
would have riveted and inspired
me even if I had
not known anything about who was reading it or the whole
history and
mythology surrounding it and its creator.
It is still as freshly
groundbreaking as
ever. But, if you recall, he then
launched into other
poems, some of
which were of the "homoerotic" nature you mentioned. One in
particular was
like a proctoscope's-eye-view of his rectum and its adventures
(a personalized
take on WSB's "talking asshole" routine?), which I found
tasteless,
exhibitionistic and very uninspired in its language, especially
compared to his
great earlier poems. This was definitely
an example of him
getting away with
something because he was the world-famous AG whose audience
carried all the
baggage that went along with that. I'm
sure he was quite
consciously aware
of what he was doing and was having fun with his unique
status as a
provocateur-institution hybrid.
I am always
haunted by the concern that I'm skipping over worthy items simply
because I don't
know about them and their creators aren't famous. Like your
recent post about
music, there could indeed be artists out there the caliber
of and going forward
from those Giants of the past whom I still haven't
assimilated
completely or yet recovered from. It's a
forlorn cliche repeated
throughout human
history- so many great people from each era go nearly or
completely
unrecognized until long after they've gone, those getting all the
attention during
their frustrated lifetimes now the ones justly forgotten.
Van Gogh owed money to the subject of his
painting that recently fetched
$53,000,000, and
so on ad infinitum.
This also
dovetails with a recent post by Diane Carter about particular works
within and
outside of the context of the authors' whole ouvre, using JK's VOC
and Joyce's
FINNEGANS WAKE as examples. How do they
stand on their own vs.
within the larger
context and evolution? As you know, I'm
particularly
devoted to WSB
among all the Beat writers. But what if
I encountered one of
his '60's cut-up
novels in a vacuum with no context as to how he arrived at
it, what came
before or after? In a case like this,
understanding of the
larger context is
critical, without it puzzlement and rejection are almost
inevitable.
Well, I'm really
starting to get into this List- you may have encountered
some of my public
posts, I've come in from the cold, having just written
one-on-one until
recently. It's a great exercise and
potentially has no end,
I'm constantly
toggled as with your post that compelled me to write this. A
fascinating
intellectual exchange and a galloping addiction- will I end up
losing my family
and business and end up in the cybergutter, unkempt and
glued to the
screen, still tapping the keys when the power is turned off?
I will call you
soon for a conversation in the antiquated phone medium,
unless you Beat
me to it.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:48:18 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707081342260088@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Some late night
idiot wrote:
>
> AND PS: OK POETS of BEAT-LIST, -- LISTEN UP!
>
> the snails
have us running for cover
> it's time to
organize and develop our own channels
> I'm still
trying to figure out who is out there
> in the 200+
of us on this list
as someone
suggested backchannel, perhaps I do need therapy. <laugh>
Am
thinking I should
just keep my mouth quiet and wait a while, see what
happens. get some reading done. So taking a couple of breathes, and a few
steps back, let
me apologize if I've offended anyone, and please send
related messages
backchannel, if possible.
thanx, Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:59:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: 411
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
No, but I found
him on page 40 of James Joyce's "Ulysses":
What about what? What else were they invented for?
Reading two pages apiece of seven books
every night, eh? I was young.
You bowed to
yourself in the mirror, stepping forward to applause
earnestly,
striking face. Hurray for the God-damned
idiot! Hray!
No-one saw: tell
no-one. Books you were going to write
with letters for
titles. Have you read this F? O yes, but I prefer Q. Yes, but W is
wonderful. O yes, W.
Remember your epiphanies on green oval leaves,
deeply deep,
copies to be sent if you died to all the great libraries of
the world,
including Alexandria? Someone was to
read them there after a
few thousand
years, a mahamanvantara. Pico della
Mirandola like. Ay,
very like a
whale. When one reads these strange
pages of one long gone
one feels that
one is at one with one who once....
The grainy sand had gone from under his
feet. [...]
Douglas <<professional loon>>
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: Per Kjellin[SMTP:kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE]
>Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 12:34 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: 411
>
>Did you found
God on the Four11?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:02:59 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: My reply
I'm not going to
debate Gerry Nicosia here on the list. I can't see any
compelling reason
why there should be another polarizing flame war like the
previous one.
Nor am I going to
defend my research into the story I'm currently writing. I
will continue my
research, in person and over the telephone, and if I am fed
alleged
"misinformation" by any interview subjects, I will allow for fair
response from
dissenting parties.
My interest has
always been in writing an objective accounting of a very
emotional issue.
For the record, I don't have any intention at this time of
including information
about Gerry's archive at all. That's not my story, and
it's already been
reported upon by others.
I don't profess
to be an expert on the contents of that collection. If Martha
Mayo is not being
truthful, that's for Gerry and Martha to work out. I have
no reason to
trust my life to either of them.
I posted that
partial interview to the BEAT-L list simply to demonstrate what
sort of
information one can get when going to a "source," rather than solely
listening to
emotional hyperbole. Martha Mayo confirmed what Rod Anstee had
asked Gerry to
explain: that there are, in fact, photocopies of letters from
authors which
came from other collections, in Gerry's research archive.
I certainly
welcome your questions and comments, challenging and informative.
I have no
interest in this particular archive issue, except as a footnote to
the larger story
of the disposition of jack kerouac's writings. All I ask is
that people
contact me directly, and don't use the BEAT-L list to argue this
thing.
Again, please
know that you are all welcome to comment or send feedback to me
at ddrooy@aol.com
or membabe@aol.com.
Diane De Rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:37:14 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Neal
Kerouac certainly
paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a
mistake to only
focus on Neal Cassady, the human being.
Kerouac is
turning Neal into
a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his
life. Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the
wrong question to
ask. A more appropriate question is what does Dean
Moriarty or Cody
stand for.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:50:23 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neil
Bentz:
You wrote:
"I wonder if
WSB, Charles or others that knew him found (Neal Cassady) to be
a
"hero" type, or just a hustler."
>From what I'
recall reading in biographies, interviews and the thinly guised
biographical
works (including ON THE ROAD itself), WSB was wary of and
annoyed by NC
during the time the Beats were living what became their legend.
He protectively warned the younger Kerouac to
be careful, like a concerned
older brother,
about the friend he was so infatuated with and who inspired
his works. He instinctively perceived NC as a moocher,
con man and thief,
and was not happy
to have him as a guest, such as when he came along with
Kerouac and co. in
early 1949 to visit WSB and his ill-fated family outside
New Orleans, as
recounted in OTR.
Of course, it's
no big secret that NC came from a deprived and delinquent
background and
that this was an integral part of his own legend as
mythologized by
JK- his car thefts, etc. From what I have read so far,
especially in OFF
THE ROAD, the memoirs of his widow Carolyn, he was a
complex and
many-faceted personality, with pronounced conflicts, in the
"beautiful
loser" vein, a reckless trouble-magnet, romantic, family & steady
job lover and
tragic martyr all in one. Artistically,
he had much more of an
impact as a
subject of JK, Allen Ginsberg & Ken
Kesey/Tom Wolfe than from
his own
fragmented and small output. A
disturbing phenomenon indispensable
to the Beats'
development but ultimately consumed by the very legend they
cultivated and
his own demons.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:55:37 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: HOWL question--help!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have a quick
question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
Lights Pocket
Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
Towards the end
of section I of the poem, here is the line:
"with mother
finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
my students asked
me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
One wondered if
missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right
letter to
asterisk ratio.
do the asterisks
appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???
who placed them
there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?
thanks for any
info you can provide...anyone out there.
Steve R. Smith
Department of
English
Pacific
University
Forest Grove, OR
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:13:08 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.]
In-Reply-To: <33C254E3.3A72AFE6@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Was this really
relevent?
You could not send
this to the person who requested it directly?
of course not.
At 10:55 AM
7/8/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>My post that
lead to Lisa's flame.
>
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclawMessage-ID:
<33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
>Date: Mon, 30
Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400
>From:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
>Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz kirby
>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version:
1.0
>To: Mail to
BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Subject:
suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
>X-Priority: 3
(Normal)
>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>
>Has anyone on
the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy. I
ran a 411 search
>and turned up
nothing. I ran one on my email address
and got me. So, I
>am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
>from aol
before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
>
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
--
Lisa M. Rabey
Simunye Design
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
---------------------------------
words...1000's of
words...wrapped together like wire
how easy it would
be to hate you, and yet that is all
I can show you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:30:16 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970708104841.15940A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Steve Smith
a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>I have a
quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
>Lights Pocket
Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
>
>Towards the
end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
>
>"with
mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
>
>my students
asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
>One wondered
if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right
>letter to
asterisk ratio.
It is
"fucked" in the original drafts (see p.31 of *Howl: Facsimile
Edition*). But asterisks (only 3) are inserted in a
later draft (see p.
42). Every published copy I have seen uses the
asterisks--and, as you
note, uses
exactly 6 of them.
On p. 131 of the
Facsimile Edition, Ginsberg says in his annotations to
that line: "Author replaced letters withe asterisks
in final draft of poem
to introduce
appropriate element of uncertainty."
Tony
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Oh,
mechanical men. They walk around, they
set the table
and don't say
nothin'. They bring you your underwear
and
they put you to
bed. They take out a cigar and smoke
cigars.
They stand there
and watch you. Mechanical men. Christ, they
wash windows,
shovel snow, give you a cigar, put out the lights.
And then they
wave Good Night."
--Larry Green
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:45:28 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
Comments: To:
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970708104841.15940A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
steve
as far as i know
the asterisks appear in all editions, in fact the reading
of howl that is
on the "holy soul jelly roll" box set, hasginsberg read
the line as
"with mother finally asterisked, and the last fantastic book
flung out".
im sure that after the obscenity trial, and the approval of
so much of what
is said and the way it is stated in howl, that the ******
is not a
censoring job, but rather the way it was written. ( and those
asterisks,AS
asterisks could be more along the lines of "silenced" or
"marginalized"
as opposed to necessarily an "obscenity" - use the
asterisks as
symbols for asterisks and what they do, as opposed to
asterisks as
replacements...?)
just a few
thoughts, as i have wondering the same about that strange, ut
of character
punctuation, in howl.
yrs
derek
On Tue, 8 Jul
1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> I have a
quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
> Lights
Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
>
> Towards the
end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
>
> "with
mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
>
> my students
asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
> One wondered
if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right
> letter to
asterisk ratio.
>
> do the asterisks
appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???
> who placed
them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?
>
> thanks for
any info you can provide...anyone out there.
>
> Steve R.
Smith
> Department
of English
> Pacific
University
> Forest Grove,
OR
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:49:47 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Neal
Comments: To:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997070813405164@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
bill
certainly a very
conscious effort i think on behalf of several beat
authors (esp.
ginsberg) in creating myth. the repitition of stories and
tales, the
idolizing of freinds and situations thru lit & poetry - almost
brings to mind
greek & oral storytelling. creation of myth thru repitition
of stories,
passed around the fire and thru everyday life. replacing the
myth of
"america the just" (or whatevr) with myth of the individual ad the
group. creation
of the XX C paul bunyan & his big blue ox?
beat as american
mythmaking?
yrs
derek
On Tue, 8 Jul
1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> Kerouac
certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a
> mistake to
only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being.
Kerouac is
> turning Neal
into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his
> life. Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the
wrong question to
> ask. A more appropriate question is what does Dean
Moriarty or Cody
> stand for.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:58:53 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: My reply then patricia adds 2cents
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Diane De Rooy
wrote:
>
> I'm not
going to debate Gerry Nicosia here on the list. I can't see any
compelling reason why there should be another
polarizing flame war like the
previous one.
> patricia
writes
I did not find
geralds response to you as a flame, i saw it as a
resonable
presentation of what was contained in his archive. i found
mayos assertion
that no original material being there rather bizarre.
d wrote
> Nor am I
going to defend my research into the story I'm currently writing. I
will continue my research, in person and over
the telephone, and if I am fed
alleged "misinformation" by any
interview subjects, I will allow for fair
response from dissenting parties.My interest
has always been in writing an
objective accounting of a very> emotional
issue. For the record, I don't have
any intention at this time of
including information about Gerry's archive at
all. That's not my
story, and it's
already been reported upon by others. I don't profess to
be an expert on
the contents of that collection. If Martha Mayo is not
being truthful,
that's for Gerry and Martha to work out. I have no
reason to trust
my life to either of them.
patricia writes
you posted one
side of an account of geralds archives to this public
forum. You ve
trusted some of your credibility as a reporter to how you
report and
what. i don not mean to be insulting i
feel you were hoping
to balance some
of the information.
> d wrote
> I posted
that partial interview to the BEAT-L list simply to demonstrate what
sort of information one can get when going to
a "source," rather than solely
listening to emotional hyperbole.
patricia writes
i hope that the
phrase emotional hyperbole is not in refernce to gerald
in regard to his
own archives.
d wrote
Martha Mayo confirmed what Rod Anstee had
asked Gerry to explain: that
there are, in
fact, photocopies of letters from authors which came from
other
collections, in Gerry's research archive. I certainly welcome your
questions and
comments, challenging and informative. I have no interest
in this particular
archive issue, except as a footnote to the larger
story of the
disposition of jack kerouac's writings. All I ask is that
people contact me
directly, and don't use the BEAT-L list to argue this
thing.
patricia writes
i felt no desire
to take this off the beat list since it is list
related. You stated that mayo said that there were no
original material
in the archives
and then you restate that somehow that was only a
confirmation of
rod anstees assertions. I do not mean this post as a
flame but to post
to the list such personal conclusions and then beg no
list postings in
response underestimates the population you are
addressing.. I
plan to stay civil but open. I have no knowledge of miss
mayo or gerald as
persons that would sway me but the history of my own
writing leads me
to think no original material in gn's
archives isn't
likely.
> d wrote
> Again,
please know that you are all welcome to comment or send feedback to me
> at
ddrooy@aol.com or membabe@aol.com.
>
> Diane De
Rooy
patricia writes
i sincerely hope
that no war results from this as the last one was
creepy and
boring. but i am uncomfortable with off
list clarifications
of what one
really meant when speaking of a third party and his
reputation
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:01:47 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
Comments: To:
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Steve Smith
a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> I have a
quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
> Lights
Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
>
> Towards the
end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
>
> "with
mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
>
> my students
asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
> One wondered
if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right
> letter to
asterisk ratio.
>
> do the
asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???
> who placed
them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?
That's a very
interesting question. There's no mention of it in the
Dharma Lion
biography.
It's a curious
little omission, cos all through the rest of Howl
Ginsberg is
uncensored ("who let themselves be fucked in the ass",
"vision of
ultimate cunt and come eluding the last gyzm of
consciousness").
I have three
recordings of Ginsberg reading Howl...on the Holy Soul
Jelly Roll
version (Berkeley '56) he says "fucked"; on the Kronos cd
('96) he says
"asterisked"; and on the original Howl lp ('59) there's
nothing, just a
sloppy edit (ruining his vocal rhythm) where he
undoubtedly said
"fucked."
Could it be that
Allen, in this incredible purging of his soul, censored
this line himself
out of respect for his mother Naomi, who was still
alive at the
time? But if that was the reason, why did he say "fucked"
at the public
readings? I think in the end he probably put the asterisks
in for his
father's benefit. Louis hated Allen's frequent use of
profanity (he was
outraged over the language in Kaddish, mainly the
"pubic
beard" line) and with this being Allen's first major published
work, Allen
probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling
confident enough
to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there
to scrutinize
him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in
the '96
recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
decision that the
asterisks should remain where they were and he
wouldn't
associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
with gutter
language.
That's just me
speculating, I could be wrong!
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:17:30 -0700
Reply-To: B medeiros
<brianpm@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: B medeiros
<brianpm@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Regarding the
asterisks in "Howl", I was thinking that there may be a
linguistic
influence. The asterisk mark in
linguistics signals a
grammatically
incorrect passage/fragment, perhaps these asterisks are
marking
"mother" as being incorrect, or her actions as incorrect. Then
again, this
Linguistic convention may not have been adopted until after AG
wrote
"Howl."
Just giving
options,
Brian Medeiros
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:42:21 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
In-Reply-To:
<199707081917.MAA28789@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think the Howl
asterisks are funny -- here he lets it all hang out, pages
and pages of
obscene smut (oh whoops they proved it had literary value,
right?) and
there's this one line no dirty word there just ****** who knows
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:34:06 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Neal
well put,
Neal/Cody takes the place of the icons used since the dawn of time
to explain who
and what we are and what kind of greatness lies in Everyman,
regardless of how
"human" he is.
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bill Gargan
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 10:37 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Neal
Kerouac certainly
paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a
mistake to only
focus on Neal Cassady, the human being.
Kerouac is
turning Neal into
a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his
life. Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the
wrong question to
ask. A more appropriate question is what does Dean
Moriarty or Cody
stand for.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:17:32 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: God
Reply to message
from thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU of Mon, 07 Jul
>
>On Sat, 28
Jun 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
>> Why the
hell does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
>> magical
powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
>> little
beyond our own puny little selves?
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Sherri
>>
>i couldn't
agree more. i've often said as much to
friends and collegues.
>to me, God
isn't corporeal. I don't picture God as
corporeal. in fact,
>to me, it's
impossible to picture God at all. The
fact that we even
>attempt to
name God is puzzling. God is a mind more
powerful than we
>can even
begin to conceive. Maybe.
>Jenn Thompson
"If God did
not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him"
Voltaire (??)
"If Lemons
did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them."
Stoppard (as in Tom, of Rosen &
Guil are Dead Fame)
Diane. (H)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:56:19 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: hello again back from vacation, etc
Mime-Version: 1.0
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hello yall
i just thought i
would drop a note to all here saying that im back from
vacation if
anyone is trying to get a hold of me or whatever. spent 10
days in montreal
and (to keep it all beat related, etc) met up with
beat-L's very own
Antoine Maloney, spent a great afternoon/evening
wandering around
his bookshelves, talking, drinking wine, wandering for
bookstores on
ste-catherine and generally talking and meeting eachotehr in
person (only
person from beat-L that ive actually MET in the flesh. pretty
damn fun)going on
at the same time i was there was the Ontreal
interational jazz
festival (of which i didnt get achance to take in
anything, latho i
heard they had a great turn out) as well as an
incredible show
at the musee des beaux-arts de montreal entitles "exiles &
emigrees: artists
who fled hitler 1933-1941" which included ( and hense
the beat
connection) early dadaist andre breton (surrealist) and kurt
schwitters (of
"merz" and collage fame). its a great show if anyone out
there gets a
chance to take it in (i dont think its travelling
tho, so you'll have to trip up to montreal).
schwitters and bretons (as
well as the ther
dadaists, like tristan tzara) had a huge influence on
wsburroughs and
his cut-up method and the way that he approached cut-up as
anti-lit. (altho
it could be argued that his exposure & enthusiasm for
dada could be
justification after the fact for his cut-up, i dont know
that he was
exposed to them before he started his own work with cut-up,
but was exposed
early on none the less).
great show. great
vacation. great day w/ antoine. great city.
gadzooks
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:46:07 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Mythmaking
MIME-Version: 1.0
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derek wrote:
> the
repitition of stories and tales, the idolizing of freinds and situations
> thru lit
& poetry - almost brings to mind greek & oral storytelling.
sounds good
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:31:09 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody Part 2
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this whole time i
was reading this i kept thinking about the comments
posted about
Burroughs warning Jack about "cody" and kept thinking that
this was
something of a reply to WSB - not for WSB but for Jack and the
rest of the world
- to try and understand why "cody" was the way "cody"
was.
but
i also got this
yucky feeling the whole time like i was supposed to feel
for
"cody" b/c he'd had such a hard life and all that.....
i think charley's
remark about the inversion of the hustler-hero labels
pretty
fascinating. i think he has a definite
point. one person's
hustler is another's
hero and vice versa and maybe the whole idea of
labeling hustlers
and heroes and creating legends(and victims) icons and
myths is
............ feudal, futile ??????
no clue. started Part 3.
both seem much
less Mythic in the dialogues.
i wanted to color
code my book for sections written on different drugs
different colors
but didn't know where to start......
oops got to go
change the laundry i tend to forget about things like
that. oops that was chatroom so delete that
sentence.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:18:58 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: opium=buddha of the masses
Comments: To:
race@midusa.net
In a message
dated 97-07-08 14:52:20 EDT, you write:
<<
it is nice to dream again. i can attest to that. funny funny dreams.
>>
i just bought
William burroughs' latest novel.."my education, a book of
dreams".
I actually went
to the store to buy Visions of Codeine but felt a draw toward
the "B"
section in the fiction aisle and I couldn't resist. And i spent my
money on bill,
again. i feel like as long as there are
books of his (WSB) i
haven't yet read,
buying Kerouac would be a waste. gotta haul my ass over to
the Library in
the mornin' and cross my fingas there's VOC somewhere between
the harlequin
romances and the childrens books in that pathetic excuse for a
library.
------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:47:54 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody Part 2
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> this whole
time i was reading this i kept thinking about the comments
> posted about
Burroughs warning Jack about "cody" and kept thinking that
> this was
something of a reply to WSB - not for WSB but for Jack and the
> rest of the
world - to try and understand why "cody" was the way "cody"
> was.
>
> but
> i also got
this yucky feeling the whole time like i was supposed to
> feel
> for
"cody" b/c he'd had such a hard life and all that.....
>
> i think
charley's remark about the inversion of the hustler-hero labels
> pretty
fascinating. i think he has a definite
point. one person's
> hustler is
another's hero and vice versa and maybe the whole idea of
> labeling
hustlers and heroes and creating legends(and victims) icons
> and
> myths is ............
feudal, futile ??????
>
Maybe, but let's
go from there to what Bill posted earlier about "Whether
or not Neal is
really heroic is the wrong question to ask.
A more
appropriate
question is what does Dean Moriarty or Cody stand for."
Hero or not, lets
assume Cody is the main character and ask the question,
what does he
stand for? What is at the center of the
myth Kerouac is
creating. First of all you have someone who grew up in
pretty dire
circumstances,
son of a bum, drunk, who in reform school has a dream that
if only he
educates himself, reads enough books, will avoid a similar
plight. But, as of yet nothing about formal schooling
only
self-education
from library books. He hangs out in
poolhalls, bars,
drives fast cars
fast, steals cars, has girls wherever he goes, loves
jazz, uses lots
of different drugs, travels incessantly back and forth
across the
country, has a family but isn't what many would call
responsible about
it, we have some stuff coming up about how he's never
home when he
should be, always out partying with other women and his wife
is constantly
yelling at him about it.
Here somewhere
lies the difference between beaten and beatific.
In K's somewhat
inomancticized version of this story, which we are
reading, does
Cody stand for some inversion of the American dream where
indomitable
spirit and disparity go hand in hand?
For all his desires to
be otherwise,
Cody still stands more or less on the wrong side of the
tracks, finding
joy. life in simple pleasures but not really ever casting
America off his
back. Anyone got some more thoughts
here?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:03:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Part III still going
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This part of the
book definitely takes some persistence.
I noted two
things in the
last several pages that seems to sum up where we are.
pg. 156
CODY: You're not gonna get hardly any of this
recorded you know
JACK: Well, that's the sadness of it all
pg. 159
JIMMY: You're now
a profound thinker
CODY: Man, no, I'm just--
JIMMY: You're just found
CODY: --trying to remember what transpired before
the beginning of that
there cigarette
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:35:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: no reason!
today i say Howl
misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It said,
"best minds
of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
I mean, if he had
written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it?
oh, for
chrissake. Maybe there's reason to despair after all.
3 young people my
age were brutally murdered in the Starbucks across the
street from where
i work in DC.
I bought WSB's
book of dreams today. I guess i can now
find out what makes
his dreams good
and mine....well....undesirable to Beat-l.
My dry eyes ache
for somewhere to bleed to
But you're all
out of kleenex tonight.
If anyone is
interested in continuing to receive my posts or in staying in
touch please let
me know. Otherwise i will no longer post
anything that
doesn't have the
word "Ginsberg", "Burroughs", or "Kerouac" in
it. I'm sorry
for the
inconvenience I have caused by posting my own writing and not that of
others. i see what an effort and consumption of time
it is for some people
to click on the
delete key.
am unabashedly
nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it
out on YOU,
love,
maya<<sick
of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:41:14 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac on Pound
Comments: To:
BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
In a message
dated 97-07-08 21:46:14 EDT, you write:
<< we have
different tastes, thank goodness, otherwise these discussions
would be pretty bland. i'm not put off by
Pound's personal views, or
even strongly offended. i could sit in front
of a tv on any given day
and see worse things labeled as pure
entertainment. i realize that a
danger, if you will, of going deep and writing
it down is that some,
well...distasteful things are revealed. isn't
that the point? this is
earth, after all, and slimy things live under
some of these good solid
rocks. to think otherwise is naive. >>
A discussion on
the boh-list might interest those on the beat-l . Not that
classification
means that much in art, but Emerson wrote:
"There are
two classes of poets--the poets by education and practice, these
we respect; and
poets by nature, these we love."
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:46:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
In a message
dated 97-07-08 22:06:51 EDT, you write:
<< But what
if I encountered one of
his '60's cut-up novels in a vacuum with no
context as to how he arrived at
it, what came before or after? >>
Arthur:
In your message
to Michael you mentioned some of Ginsberg poems that sank to
Bathos, that did
happen even with AG. Also you may not have caught Burroughs
unless you had a
background. I don't know the exact passage or text, but I
would disagree as
an artist that you have to have the "surround" before you
can detect great
writing.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:54:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ******
I recall Allen
saying something about taking that word out about his mother.
It may have been
between the time he and Louis and his other relatives
visited us in
Cherry Valley, and the time he gave Pam a poetry manuscript
when we had lunch
with his stepmother. Also I think he was aware of his
father's
feelings. He talked it lightly and one of us may have mentioned it
ruined the
alliteration.
During my time
with the beats we usually didn't regard our discussions as
documents. At
least I didn't though there was always a sense of history being
made.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:20:12 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: no reason!
In-Reply-To: <970708233513_-1427488426@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 8:35 PM -0700
7/8/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> am
unabashedly nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it
> out on YOU,
Take it out
Maya-o. take it out.
There's a
ballpark somewhere.
It's playing your
song. <<ahem::
taking it out Maya-O
taking it out on yoU
gonna get whipped by pokka dots
i don't care if that ****** ever does
bark
cause it's root root listed in the
f.a.q.
and yes, your dreams aren't the same
as ginsberg and kerouac and what's his
luck
won't ever get breakfast at your
starbucks
cause it's root root listed in the
f.a.q.
the one where those children were slain
a river in thailand with circus wheels
a gallons of coffee and three clips in
my brain
o Maya, o
Maya have a bawl baby
have em all in the LOD-waiting room
walking tall and
proud and poetic
butt you still be
ugly! my darlin, saccharine
> love,
>
maya<<sick of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)
LET'S PLAY
BAWL! LOD-POETS Doug :-(((((
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:47:33 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ...
In-Reply-To:
<970708235422_-1829546063@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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dear friends,
...
with mother
finally ******, and the last fantastic
...
maybe it so
happens that Allen Ginsberg
didn't he want
another accuse of obscenity?
keep in mind that
also Jack Kerouac changed
names with
pseudonyms rightly or wrongly, to
not offended some
people characterized in his
works,
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * a not
competent beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:24:16 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: no reason!
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970708233513_-1427488426@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "Maya
Gorton" at Jul 8, 97
11:35:19 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
> today i say
Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It said,
> "best
minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
> I mean, if
he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it? oh, for
>
chrissake. Maybe there's reason to
despair after all.
Maya--Which book
on the fifties are you reading?
Ginsberg's original
draft actually
read "starving mystical naked," but he revised this in later
drafts. I'm
curious how this revision was presented in the book you're
reading--and if
it was presented as part of a discussion of revision at
all. Thanks--
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:46:09 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> I don't know
the exact passage or text, but I
> would disagree
as an artist that you have to have the "surround" before
> you
> can detect
great writing.
Charles,
I agree that you
don't need background to "detect" great writing. But
the background or
previous work sometimes lends itself to the unfolding
of greater
understanding in what is read. Many
times it provides more
levels to what
might only have been read one way by itself.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:39:19 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: HOWL misquoted?
Comments: To:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Maya wrote:
today i say Howl
misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It
said,
"best minds
of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
I mean, if he had
written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it?
oh, for
chrissake. Maybe there's reason to despair after all.
Maya:
That's from the
first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I
made the same
mistake a while back.
John Hasbrouck
--
*** JOHN
HASBROUCK
*** Graphic
Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago
***
http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:20:56 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody Part 2
Diane:
Here are my
thoughts on your CODY PART 2 post from 7/9/97 9:32:58EDT:
As I mentioned on
an earlier posting that you may have seen, Neal was a
contradictory
character to say the least, as established in the
unromanticized
biographical writings, especially OFF THE ROAD, by his widow
Carolyn. His contradictory impulses were
irreconcilable and at odds with
each other, in
the "beautiful loser" tradition where he wanted his "home and
security"
and wanted "to live like a sailor at sea" (or a bat out of hell
driving on the
road, etc.), as Bob Seger would belt out.
The extremity of
how far he went
with his contradictory inclinations is I think one of the
sources of JK and
the other Beats' fascination with him- the sheer energy
with which he
conducted his perilously complex life, the reckless audacity,
never saying no
to anyone or anything, blew them away in and of itself. JK's
romanticizing and
mythologizing of NC as Cody, Dean, etc. can on one level be
seen as simply a
celebratory description of this phenomenon, even with an
implicit
understanding of the ultimate irreconcilability and consequential
irresponsibility
of his behavior.
What ingredients
created the explosive combination that burned so brightly
and impressed so
many as to create a legend? We can never
know the answer
fully, but there
is enough evidence to come to some speculative conclusions.
Certainly, NC's traumatic childhood must be a
key factor- I think his father
both represented
a certain attractive freedom and self-determination while at
the same time
failed him and caused him to suffer the consequences of
parental irresponsibility-
the line was crossed between freedom and being
left out in the
cold. His closeness to and bonding with
his father fused
these two aspects
into a personality where they uneasily co-existed within
and were acted
out by him, with rollercoaster results for himself and all the
others in his
life. Interestingly, at least one of his
sons, as interviewed
in LITERARY
KICKS, seems to have it together and perhaps broken the cycle.
Anyway, this is just my speculation, NC's
kaleidescopic case is best left to
the
psychologists, such as my wife.
JK's take on NC
in OTR, VOC and elsewhere should not, in my opinion, be
received as some
guide or lessons about how to live or a judgement, good bad
or indifferent,
about NC's conduct- it is ART and POETRY extracted from LIFE.
When I first read OFF THE ROAD, it made me
appreciate the very unromantic
consequences of
the behavior that JK romanticizes, for those left behind.
But upon further reflection, as I have said
above, I think that JK & co. are
not making
excuses for or validating NC, or their own complicity with him, no
one is more or
less qualified for that, what they have done is presented a
picture that we
can all interpret or just enjoy the ride.
I'll reply to
your 7/8/97 1:56:05 EDT message from yesterday separately to
you personally,
in respect of the perimeters that have been set for this
List.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:54:34 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: God
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970707180941.0069b81c@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 18.09 07/07/97
-0400, Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU> wrote:
> There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
...
eli
eli lamma lamma sabachtani
...
--allen ginsberg, howl, I
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:19:51 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
In-Reply-To: <33C31791.4363@together.net>
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At 9:46 PM -0700
7/8/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> >
> > I don't
know the exact passage or text, but I
> > would
disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround" before
> > you
> > can
detect great writing.
>
> Charles,
>
> I agree that
you don't need background to "detect" great writing. But
> the
background or previous work sometimes lends itself to the unfolding
> of greater
understanding in what is read. Many
times it provides more
> levels to
what might only have been read one way by itself.
Duchamp at one
point gave up art and decided upon a life of chess. He'd
lied of course.
The act of designation by the artist was enough to make
something an
"art object". [see readymades]
As far as appreciation goes, yes, the artist,
were he a single drop of
water, a single
drop of water hinged somewhere and descending, suddenly to
hit a concrete
surface... well, the sound might not be that interesting.
the resonance might
not carry that far. poor little artist
might not even
get absorbed into
the ground. till the next drop falls.
and the next drop.
and that first
step, that first instance of surround.
that single
perception of
duality, of outside paradoxes, *that appreciation of levels.
=well, that's
enough of a foundation for anyone. to be
an artist.
people have the
power. Douglas <<ahem: ginsberg, kerouac,
burroughs>>
> DC
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:39:10 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Adrien writ:
><<work,
Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling
>confident
enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there
>to scrutinize
him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in
>the '96
recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
>decision that
the asterisks should remain where they were and he
>wouldn't
associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
with gutter
language.>>
yes, and this
written omission, this disruptive poetic mistake, this
outside control
over his own mind and work; surely Ginsberg recognized
and respected how
it lived a life of its own. The
asterisks were public
property [riddled
with private thoughts]. and in their
benign
simplicity must
have been a great supporter. The respect
for others,
within
himself. The ability to censor, what
power! In the hands of a
poet! and scholar!
>[[exploring
the grey areas, making semi-intentional "mistakes" --
>publically]]
for the purpose
of discourse. the act of being
human. ***** what a
great process!
>> That's
just me speculating, I could be wrong!
>> Adrien
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:42:01 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
Adrien writ:
> > ...in
his old age Allen had probably come to the
> >
>decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he
> >
>wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
> > with
gutter language.>>
> >
> >
>> Adrien
> patricia
writes
> i don't know
if allen did consider the word fucked as gutter language
> i could see him using the **** out of respect for his parents feelings but i
don't see him having or sharing those
supposted feelings about the word fucked.
just to be puckish i like that dear old word
fucked, see as a verb with verve.
Now he might have but he might of left the
***s out of a sense of the history
or just liked to see people try and pronounce
it.
p
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:44:16 -0400
Reply-To: Goose Bumping Records
<frsn@INTAC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Goose Bumping Records
<frsn@INTAC.COM>
Subject: Beat Writing Contributions
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've been on this
list for a couple of weeks, and would now like to
contribute to
it. My name's Steve Voss, and I have
recently completed my
High School
Senior Project, a web site devoted to the Beat Generation,
while it's no
Literary Kicks, I am proud of it, and interested in
expanding
it. One way I would like to do so is
with writing
contributions
from writers today. So, what I'm asking,
is if anyone has
something that
they've written that they're especially proud of, and
would like to see
published on the web, to please send it to me, in a
.txt file, or
simply via e-mail at this address.
The address of
the page is http://www.geocities.com/~beatgeneration/
Thanks for your
time,
Steve Voss
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:05:34 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: cody II
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
> not much
discussion about cody part 2; wonder if it is because there is a
> sense of
been there/read that before.
That's probably
the truth, instead of first impressions it's more like
third or fourth
impressions for me.
> what i see
here is JK's edgy am i hero/am i
narrator thread which is seen
> more clearly
here than in OTR.also, in the face of
the visionary cody, he
> wishes he
were bigger smarter faster ...
Good point. He
always asks himself this question...it's in every book.
He always seemed
to beat himself up with those thoughts, always wanted
to run, enjoy
life, DO instead of merely observe, but home always pulled
him back just
enough to not let him pursue that to the fullest.
In part 2 Jack is
paralleling Neal's (ewps, I mean Cody) early life with
his own. He
describes Cody wooing girls, slyly conning his new friends,
and showing his
athletic prowess (another high point: the football
scene!). On the
oter hand, Jack is moping around, wishing he did this n
that, and he
describes his own sorry attempt at getting on the ship,
hoping to start a
new adventure that would end up in Indochina...well,
it's the usual
wishful thinking on his part, big big plans but never
following through
on them.
Jack's
insecurities are right there for everyone to see in part 2. Above
all else is his
insecurity with women. Every so often he regales us with
semi-boastful
tales of who he fucked, who he wished he fucked, etc.
Seems to obsess
about it a bit too much, making it look like he was
desperately
trying to cover up his inadequacy with women (another part
of his
hero-worshipping of Neal/Cody...Mr. Cassady/Pomeray the famous
cocksman and
adonis of Denver).
The best example
of this writing is his big spiel about the two racy
photos...he
totally loses himself in the photos as he stands on the
street on Times
Square, standing there with all the other older lechers.
It's an
interesting piece cos it's so unlike anything Jack ever wrote,
sort of from a
dirty old man's point of view (he's no Henry Miller!),
contrasting from
his incredibly romantic few weeks with the Mexican girl
a few years
earlier, and his self-imposed "chastity" vow during his
mid-fifties
Buddhist period. His breast obsession starts to get a bit
funny and he
seems to notice it himself:
"pulled
cloth down but only one end so that instead of one-fourth upper
left of a breast
showing (with valley) now we see three-fifths full
upper breast with
valley expanding-Ah those gorgeous breasts-I stand
here among the
religious dirty old men of the world, chewing gum, like
them, with a
horrible beating heart-I can hardly think or control
myself-"
(p.76)
[five minute
pause to rescue a cute little mousey from our basement
window well]
anyway, where was
I?
Jack's
description of him and other men holding up traffic just to look
at a photo in a
window is not only funny, but also hints at his feelings
of inadequacy and
lack of confidence with women. he always did his best
writing either
alone or with guys around, funny enough.
As for his
pitiful struggle to get on the S.S. John Adams, he describes
meeting the ship
again in California. In Lonesome Traveler there's a
piece called
Piers of the Homeless Night, and I think it further
describes that
same L.A. sojourn. It's an absolutly hilarious piece
about his running
around town with Henri Cru (Deni Bleu) and how Deni
hooks Jack up
with someone who'll give him a gun, and tells him to meet
the ship and
"cover" Deni as he tries to escape two sailors who want to
kill him. I think
that's the same trip, and I suggest anyone who hasn't
read it lately
and who is reading VOC just take a break before the
grueling part 3
(ugh, it's a little too much but barely tolerable...I
suggest don't
overanalyze it, just read it quickly and you'll get the
general idea) and
have a nice larf courtesy of Jack.
On to 29 Russell street
and part 3...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:29:18 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL misquoted?
Reply to message
from jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM of Wed, 09 Jul
>
>Maya wrote:
>
>today i say
Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It
>said,
>"best
minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
>I mean, if he
had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it? oh, for
>chrissake. Maybe there's reason to despair after all.
>
>Maya:
>That's from
the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I
>made the same
mistake a while back.
>
>John
Hasbrouck
I thought
Ginsberg "bragged" that teh first part of Howl was written
without
revision....or did the writers of those nasty time/life articles
from teh fifties
try to play up a no-revision poem to "prove" how horrible
NORMAL society
thought it was?....
Diane. (H)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:38:40 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: cody 2
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arthur you
continue to delight me since climbing aboard this ship of fools.
having just
re-read the first third by casady in reading section II, i was
struck at how
many traumatic, never mind downtrodding incidents formed his
early life. not
being able to jump off a freight cab in the freezing dark,
father on the
rails, days getting back, of being smothered in the hollywood
style bed, the
stark deprivation and the busy mind and tough survior
explorer of
everything he could in life. and the sociopathy, who could have
survived such a childhood
with out developing the mindset and behaviors
which caused such
a split in personality/as seen by friends and others.
What ingredients
created the explosive combination that burned so brightly
and impressed so
many as to create a legend? We can never
know the answer
fully, but there
is enough evidence to come to some speculative conclusions.
Certainly, NC's traumatic childhood must be a
key factor- I think his father
both represented
a certain attractive freedom and self-determination while at
the same time
failed him and caused him to suffer the consequences of
parental
irresponsibility- the line was crossed between freedom and being
left out in the
cold. His closeness to and bonding with
his father fused
these two aspects
into a personality where they uneasily co-existed within
and were acted
out by him, with rollercoaster results for himself and all the
others in his
life. Interestingly, at least one of his
sons, as interviewed
in LITERARY
KICKS, seems to have it together and perhaps broken the cycle.
Anyway, this is just my speculation, NC's
kaleidescopic case is best left to
the
psychologists, such as my wife.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:35:11 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Wed blues.
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priest
confessor
u get
married
my confessor
an angel
has pissed
on my head
my imaginary
friend
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:58:15 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL misquoted?
In-Reply-To:
<199707092029.QAA13993@piglet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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At 04:29 PM
7/9/97 -0400, Diane M. Homza wrote:
>>Maya:
>>That's
from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I
>>made the
same mistake a while back.
>>
>>John
Hasbrouck
>
>I thought
Ginsberg "bragged" that teh first part of Howl was written
>without
revision....or did the writers of those nasty time/life articles
>from teh
fifties try to play up a no-revision poem to "prove" how horrible
>NORMAL
society thought it was?....
>Diane. (H)
>
>--
>Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
>--Heidi A.
Emhoff
Diane--I think
it's the latter. This is why I asked
Maya if the book she
was reading
simply misquotes an early draft as if it were a final draft . .
. or whether the
book actually takes Ginsberg's revisions as seriously as
he did. From my own research--and from what I've read
in a few others
(Miles &
Schumacher included)--Ginsberg's was as serious about revision as
most professional
writers are, and he understood revision to be compatible
with maxims like
"First Thought, Best Thought."
Tony
******************************************************************
"The beetles
are the beetles. They clean up all the
vermin. They're
not very
friendly, but they clean up all the vermin.
They don't do
much else, but
they make holes in your house.
Beetles--they're like
mice, they're
like rats. They ARE rats. Beetles are alright. They
ruin a lot of
things, but they're good for us."
--William
"Fergie" Ferguson
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:36:10 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: asterisks
Content-Type:
text
To elaborate on
Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
Transcript &
Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles (this is a
really fine book,
even though Ginsberg sometimes seems to be
providing
explanations of his allusions that seem more creative than
the allusions
themselves), the process follows this pattern:
p. 27 (draft 2):
"with mother finally fucked"
p. 31 (draft 3):
same as above
p. 42 (draft 4):
"finally ***" (just 3, as Tony noted)
p. 53 (draft 5):
same as 4
p. 58 (draft
page, apparently early: "his own mother finally fucked"
In addition to
the comment Ginsberg made about the asterisks, in "Author's
Annotations"
(pp.131-32), he adds, "In a letter regarding this project
received
September 29, 1985, Carl Solomon wrote: 'Mother finally ***.
Crap. Sorry
Allen.'"
Perhaps the
asterisks reveal the power of the Oedipal taboo.
On the other
hand, a number of years ago at the Naropa Institute in
Boulder, CO, I
once specifically asked Ginsberg why he used the asterisks,
and he, earnestly
and defensively, told me, "Because it didn't really
happen." His
logic escapes me.
Methinks the lady
doth protest too much?
Cordially,
Mike Skau
7/9/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:54:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
Comments: To:
baculum@mci2000.com
The chairman of
an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted to
teach. After all
these years. Now that I have lost my mind.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:41:28 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Cody Bound for Glory On the Road
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In my somewhat
slower reading of VOC I finally stumbled on a reference I guess I
have
been looking for
for a long time. On p.41 (McGrawHill HB) in Jack's letter to
Cody, he
says:
"...Peaches
Martin(!) - who's back playing guitar and singing folk songs in
Village..."
Kerouac and
Cassady's interest in jazz is well-documented, and the rock
connection is
hinted at in
Kicks Joy Darkness, but would they have been aware of the folk
scene in the
40s and 50s ?
To take it a bit
further Woody Guthrie's autobiography/novel Bound for Glory
reads much
like a down to
earth kind of road experience, and again I wonder if Kerouac
would have
known/liked, say,
"This Land is Your Land" or "Pastures of Plenty"?
Guthrie was a
hobo, perhaps exactly not the kind described in "The Vanishing
American
Hobo", but
similar anyway.
And what about
Ginsberg ? He's been presented as a father figure for a young Bob
Dylan,
and he recorded
on Folkways, but would he with his more leftist political
leanings have
been associated
with, say, Pete Seeger ?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:48:03 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: HOWL! - a farewell compilation
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Does anyone know
anything about this CD titled Howl ? Does it have any
connection with
THE Howl ?
In Europe it is
released on Glitterhouse Records GRCD 352, and as far as
the notes say
there are no texts by Ginsberg, although some titles hint
at BEAT/jazz
connections: "Route 66" and "Dexter Gordon".
Featured artists
include: Giant Sand, Russ Tolman, Steve Wynn, Joe Henry,
Victoria Williams
and more.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:51:49 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Leroi Jones/Amiri Baraka
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To what extent is
Jones/Baraka seen as a Beat writer ?
I have been
reading "The Dutchman" and certainly references are made to a
jazzy beat
environment, but was he a part of the "circle" of beats ?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:26:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: another textual question--this time, calling
all hebrew-ists!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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my students have
been reading and really getting into Kaddish...
i have done
workmanlike job of trying to trace out allusions and such
that seem fuzzy
or blurry to them (and to me).
they have asked
that i get at the following line, from my page 89 of of
Portable Beat
Reader edition/version, from Part II:
Yisborach,
v'yistabach, v'yispoar, v'yisroman, v'yisnaseh,/v'yishador,
v'yishalleh,
v'yishallol, sh'meh d'kudsho, b'rich hu."
i suspect of
course that this line is from the Kaddish prayer itself--but
want to be sure
of that--and it would not be bad to get translation!!! No
dictionaries in
our little library to take me to the words in words, so
to speak.
can someone help?
maybe the person(s) who posted the Kaddish on the list
when AG left this
meat wheel can be of special help.
also, when
searching under term "kaddish" on the web, I "learned" that
there is really
another prayer which takes care of the notion/need for
mourning.
therefor, Kaddish of AG may be more the poem which does indeed
ask for blessing
and finally nod to power and good of god??? the good of
death,
obliteration, etc. now out of this and into the void or eternity
or whatever?
thanks in advance
for your helps....
best always,
steve
pacific u.
forest grove,
oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:27:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody Bound for Glory On the Road
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Jens Koch wrote:
>
> In my
somewhat slower reading of VOC I finally stumbled on a reference I guess
I
> have
> been looking
for for a long time. On p.41 (McGrawHill HB) in Jack's letter to
> Cody, he
> says:
>
"...Peaches Martin(!) - who's back playing guitar and singing folk songs
in
> Village..."
> Kerouac and
Cassady's interest in jazz is well-documented, and the rock
> connection is
> hinted at in
Kicks Joy Darkness, but would they have been aware of the folk
> scene in the
> 40s and 50s
?
> To take it a
bit further Woody Guthrie's autobiography/novel Bound for Glory
> reads much
> like a down
to earth kind of road experience, and again I wonder if Kerouac
> would have
> known/liked,
say, "This Land is Your Land" or "Pastures of Plenty"?
> Guthrie was
a hobo, perhaps exactly not the kind described in "The Vanishing
> American
> Hobo",
but similar anyway.
> And what
about Ginsberg ? He's been presented as a father figure for a young
Bob
> Dylan,
> and he recorded
on Folkways, but would he with his more leftist political
> leanings have
> been
associated with, say, Pete Seeger ?
Recording for
Folkways means being associated with Moses Asch (sp?) [i
have an old copy
of one of his Broadside magazines somewhere around
here] also Sis Cunningham who ran Broadside lived
on the upper west
side of
Manhattan. These were the spiritual
grandparents of the entire
New York folk
scene. It seems difficult to believe
that all of these
would be
unconnected and unknown .......
interesting ideas
and glad you pointed them out. i'm
really curious
about it.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:34:29 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody Part 2
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Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
>
> JK's take on
NC in OTR, VOC and elsewhere should not, in my opinion, be
> received as
some guide or lessons about how to live or a judgement,
> good bad or
indifferent, about NC's conduct- it is ART and POETRY
> extracted
from LIFE. When I first read OFF THE
ROAD, it made me
> appreciate
the very unromantic
> consequences
of the behavior that JK romanticizes, for those left
> behind. But
upon further reflection, as I have said above, I think that
>JK & co.
are not making excuses for or validating NC, or their own complicity
with him, no one is more or less qualified for
that, what they
have done is
presented a picture that we can all interpret or just enjoy
the ride.
I agree largely
with your assessment. None of the beats
in life can be
revered as models
for having a particularly stable family life, if that
is one's
goal. It is the "art and poetry
extracted from life" that I
find fascinating
and intriguing. And that applies to the
treatment thus
far of Cody in
VOC. I guess I am wondering about a
couple of things in
the presentation
of Cody. Part II is definitely still a
romantic
presentation of
the protagonist and perhaps what is in the mind of Jack
the writer, as Marie
quoted in another post,
"...but the
main thing I suppose will be this life-long monologue which
is begun in my
mind--life lifelong complete contemplation...(do need a
recorder)...then
I could keep the most complete record in the world which
in itself could
be divided into twenty massive and pretty interesting
volumes of tapes
describing activities everywhere and excitements and
thoughts of mad
valuable to me..."
So when you get
to part three, which seems like probably the central part
of the work, we
have the tape. Cody is not presented in
a favorable way
in the tape, he
is for the most part incoherent. Makes
one wonder about
the motive of the
writer. Is this planned as an introduction to the
downside of Cody,
romanticized hero hits reality. Or, is
it supposed to
be a recording of
what Jack saw as a valuable moment in time, a bonding
of sorts with the
protaganist that still presents him in a favorable
light? Perhaps I am looking for too much, but there
seems to be some
planned order to
the way things unfold.
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:48:24 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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> Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> having just
re-read the first third by casady in reading section II, i
> was struck
at how many traumatic, never mind downtrodding incidents
> formed his
early life. not being able to jump off a freight cab in the
> freezing
dark, father on the rails, days getting back, of being
> smothered in
the hollywood style bed, the stark deprivation and the
> busy mind
and tough survior explorer of everything he could in life
> and the
sociopathy, who could have survived such a childhood with out
> developing
the mindset and behaviors which caused such a split in
>
personality/as seen by friends and others.
It often makes me
wonder though, given his childhood, why NC did not in
fact turn out the
opposite of his father. Why he didn't
have an aversion
to the freedom of
the rail, or automobile cross-country wanderings, the
rollercoaster
type of life that was so traumatic for himself.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:01:52 -0700
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
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The times I have
heard Howl in person (late 60's) and on tape is was
"fucked". I find it hard to visualize AG seeing the
word as obscene,
given the
descriptions of Naomi in Kaddish. I
think you come up with a
valiant
explanation of the asterisks, maybe as good as there is, but
maybe he saw the
asterisks as letting the reader fill in the blanks and
being as graphic
as he or she felt like being, or to be a little cute
and ironic.
J Stauffer
Adrien Begrand
wrote:
. . .
I think in the end he probably put the
asterisks
> in for his
father's benefit. Louis hated Allen's frequent use of
> profanity
(he was outraged over the language in Kaddish, mainly the
> "pubic
beard" line) and with this being Allen's first major published
> work, Allen
probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling
> confident
enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there
> to
scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in
> the '96
recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
> decision
that the asterisks should remain where they were and he
> wouldn't
associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
> with gutter
language.
>
> That's just
me speculating, I could be wrong!
>
> Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:02:14 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: asterisks
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Michael Skau
wrote:
>
> To elaborate
on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
> Transcript
& Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles (this is a
> really fine
book, even though Ginsberg sometimes seems to be
> providing
explanations of his allusions that seem more creative than
> the
allusions themselves), the process follows this pattern:
> p. 27 (draft
2): "with mother finally fucked"
> p. 31 (draft
3): same as above
> p. 42 (draft
4): "finally ***" (just 3, as Tony noted)
> p. 53 (draft
5): same as 4
> p. 58 (draft
page, apparently early: "his own mother finally fucked"
> In addition
to the comment Ginsberg made about the asterisks, in
>"Author's
>
Annotations" (pp.131-32), he adds, "In a letter regarding this
project
> received
September 29, 1985, Carl Solomon wrote: 'Mother finally ***.
> Crap. Sorry Allen.'"
> Perhaps the
asterisks reveal the power of the Oedipal taboo.
> On the other
hand, a number of years ago at the Naropa Institute in
> Boulder, CO,
I once specifically asked Ginsberg why he used the
> asterisks,
> and he,
earnestly and defensively, told me, "Because it didn't really
>
happen." His logic escapes me.
> Methinks the
lady doth protest too much?
> Cordially,
> Mike Skau
> 7/9/97
It seems ironic
but Ginsberg's comments to you make sense in light of the
way I always
interpreted the asterisks, which I read as meaning more than
fucked. I always interpreted the meaning to be with
mother finally "out
of my head"
meaning I've dealt with the "succumbed to her madness" aspect
of life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:57:08 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: another textual question--this time,
calling all hebrew-ists!
Comments: To:
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
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Steve Smith
a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> my students
have been reading and really getting into Kaddish...
> i have done
workmanlike job of trying to trace out allusions and such
> that seem
fuzzy or blurry to them (and to me).
>
> they have
asked that i get at the following line, from my page 89 of of
> Portable
Beat Reader edition/version, from Part II:
>
> Yisborach,
v'yistabach, v'yispoar, v'yisroman, v'yisnaseh,/v'yishador,
> v'yishalleh,
v'yishallol, sh'meh d'kudsho, b'rich hu."
>
> can someone
help?
Here's all I can
offer:
>From
Collected Poems:
"YISBORACH...B'RICH
HU: Heart of Kaddish Prayer for the dead, for
translation see
lines 1-2, "Hymmnn" section of Kaddish."
...where we
find...
"In the
world which He has created according to his will Blessed Praised
Magnified Lauded
Exalted the Name of the Holy One Blessed is He!"
Hope that helped.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:40:25 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: asterisks
Comments: To:
Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
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Michael Skau
wrote:
> ******
> To elaborate
on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
> Transcript
& Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles...
I find this an
incredible thread! This, the VOC discussion, etc. must
represent the
guts of the List! I'm an intestine digesting your
incredible Beat
information. I rate this thread as intensely
informational as "Spit in the Ocean" No. 6; or Pam
and Charles
Plymell's posts,
etc!
Thanks!
-Michael
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:56:56 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> The chairman
of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted to
teach. After all these years. Now that I have
lost my mind.
> Charles
Plymell
Would you mind
elaborating... Will they possibly offer this course via
the internet?
-Michael
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:22:28 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Michael L.
Buchenroth wrote:
> >
> > Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
> > >
> > >
The chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted
to
> > teach. After all these years. Now that I have
lost my mind.
> > >
Charles Plymell
> >
> > Would
you mind elaborating... Will they possibly offer this course via
> > the
internet?
> >
> >
-Michael Buchenroth
> good
question
> by the way,
mr buchenroth, after all these years your little web site
> with the
exploding text has added something to my reading. kool! ouch,
> my mind it
keeps expanding.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:16:23 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: asterisks
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These threads
have been great. So good to see all this
wonderful
erudition back at
play.
The best of list
is back.
James Stauffer
Michael L.
Buchenroth wrote:
>
> Michael Skau
wrote:
> > ******
> > To
elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
> >
Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles...
>
> I find this
an incredible thread! This, the VOC discussion, etc. must
> represent
the guts of the List! I'm an intestine digesting your
> incredible
Beat information. I rate this thread as intensely
>
informational as "Spit in the
Ocean" No. 6; or Pam and Charles
> Plymell's
posts, etc!
> Thanks!
> -Michael
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:44:52 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Life after the ***th.
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ahem
ahem
i aint' ready
Father
my dad's car
is
better
than
yr Dad's car
i take note that
howl by allen ginsberg is a bloody
poem
when i read times ago
i havent' the same eyes
i have now,
right! but now just when i read howl&kaddish
i see cutted
heads & blood everywhere
5.30 a.m. thu
i aint'
ready i aint' ready
i have a vision i
see i aint ready
6:00 a.m. thu
i sing in my mind
a nursery rhyme
i aint' readY!
6:00 a.m. thu
6:00 a.m. thu
6:00 am thu
6:00 am thu
---
yrs
Rinaldo. *
ciao *
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:40:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: asterisks
In-Reply-To: <33C47E37.3021@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>These threads
have been great. So good to see all this
wonderful
>erudition
back at play.
>
>The best of
list is back.
>___________
and so it is!
mc (who is happy
not to have touched off flame war)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:42:40 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Tape
In-Reply-To: <33C3CBA5.3DAB@together.net>
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On Wed, 9 Jul
1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> So when you
get to part three, which seems like probably the central part
> of the work,
we have the tape. Cody is not presented
in a favorable way
> in the tape,
he is for the most part incoherent.
Makes one wonder about
> the motive
of the writer.
Writers get
infinitely more pleasure out of pressing REC than pressing PLAY.
Could this simply
have been "yet another" recording of the two of them that
he arbitrarily
picked for the novel? Also am I stretching here to think that
the technology of
the magnetic tape -- first available to consumers around
the time the
Beats started writing -- was an integral part of much of their
work? We have
Jack recording Neal and reading his Blues into wire tape
reels, early
Allen practicing Drakar Doldrums on tape and bringing tape in
car across
America to write Sutras, Burroughs writing extensively on the
science of the
tape recorder and later Hunter Thompson running wildly
through the dens
of politicos, rambling and mumbling incoherently into
high-tech
microcassette recorder with bystanders looking at him in
amazement,
"Like, _what_ are you doing?" To which he stops a sec to answer:
"I'm
writing."
Michael Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:28:27 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Derek:
Thanks for
mentioning the museum show. We are
planning a Vermont vacation
for next month
that will include a day trip to Montreal, about an hour's
drive.
As for whether
WSB had been exposed to these proto-practitioners of the cutup
method, he may
have been but he does not mention it anywhere that I'm aware
of. He credits the cutups entirely to his
longtime friend and collaborator,
the late Brion
Gysin, who in turn credits his discovery of it to a "happy
accident" in
which he inadvertantly cut up newspaper articles that were under
some items he was
working on, and was amused by the results.
WSB quotes BG
as saying
"writing is 50 years behind painting" at the time (Paris Beat Hotel
period circa
1959), implying that his intention was to bring the techniques
of collage, etc.
found in modern visual art to writing.
WSB believes that
his experiments
with the cutup method have succeeded in subverting the
"pre-recorded
universe". My own dabbling in
cutups had interesting results-
amidst the
incoherence were some scarily relevant and meaningful phrases,
like the
subconscious bobbing its head above the water to get to the deeper
crux of a matter.
It is possible,
as with many phenomenon, that WSB & BG's discovery of cutups
was
serendipitously separate from the surrealists' and dadaists' discovery of
it several
generations earlier, the conceptual synchronicity of open-minded
visionaries.
Pleased to meet
you,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:37:10 -0700
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although i don't
think, from what i've read of him in Off theRoad (carolyn
c), letters
between JK and NC, OTR, and poems, that neal was a /the "hero" in
the idealized
sense that he was portryed by JK and AG, but as DC said, he did
possess a sort pf
heroism. although JK and AG accomplished
worlds more in
their writing
(neal was quite a procrastinator) and careers than neal did,
neal was the one
they looked up to because he was the one who was "living."
he went out and lived life to its fullest,
never having a moment to rest,
while , to some
extent, JK and AG just wrote about what they saw him doing.
they let him do the living, and they
immortalized it all in their work. so
neal was a sort
of hero in living how he did and "sucking the marrow out of
life" and
the such, although in the long run, JK and AG formed a heroism of
their own.
carpe diem,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:56:54 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: tape
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great story,
michael, and relevant to reading of VOC transition from II to
III. at end of
part II he is wanting a "recorder" to capture everything in
the moment.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:55:03 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Arthur,
my thought
exactly - syncrhonicity. for what it's
worth, here at the
Exploratorium
there is an "experiment" with blocks with words on them, one
chooses them
randomly and makes phrases/sentences with them... i have,
unfortunately,
forgotten whom this notion is attributed to, but i think it was
WSB... at any rate it is uncanny how often i have
found them to have some
meaning for
what's going on in my life. if nothing
else, it definitely opens
the mind to
endless possibilities....
Thanks for your
most interesting and intelligent posts, i'm learning quite a
bit as a result
of this thread.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Arthur Nusbaum
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:28 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Derek:
Thanks for
mentioning the museum show. We are
planning a Vermont vacation
for next month
that will include a day trip to Montreal, about an hour's
drive.
As for whether
WSB had been exposed to these proto-practitioners of the cutup
method, he may
have been but he does not mention it anywhere that I'm aware
of. He credits the cutups entirely to his
longtime friend and collaborator,
the late Brion
Gysin, who in turn credits his discovery of it to a "happy
accident" in
which he inadvertantly cut up newspaper articles that were under
some items he was
working on, and was amused by the results.
WSB quotes BG
as saying
"writing is 50 years behind painting" at the time (Paris Beat Hotel
period circa
1959), implying that his intention was to bring the techniques
of collage, etc.
found in modern visual art to writing.
WSB believes that
his experiments
with the cutup method have succeeded in subverting the
"pre-recorded
universe". My own dabbling in
cutups had interesting results-
amidst the
incoherence were some scarily relevant and meaningful phrases,
like the
subconscious bobbing its head above the water to get to the deeper
crux of a matter.
It is possible,
as with many phenomenon, that WSB & BG's discovery of cutups
was serendipitously
separate from the surrealists' and dadaists' discovery of
it several
generations earlier, the conceptual synchronicity of open-minded
visionaries.
Pleased to meet
you,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:06:18 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: CODY: what murder?
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There have been a
couple of references so far to something about Bull and
June and a
murder. Can't find the other references
at the moment
but here again on
page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between
June and August
everything happened, the murder took place." Is this
ever explicated?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:27:28 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707101500300776@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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arthur/sherri/co.
well i think that
burroughs DOES mention tristan tzara and the dadaists,
esp the cut-up
work, spontaneous poems (i think he refers to tzara as the
"man from
nowhere" who was thrown off the stage for pulling random words
outta a hat and
proclaiming them poems...) and also makes reference to
"exquisite
corpse" as well as far as i know.
now while i cant remeber what book in
particular he refers to
tzara and dada it
may be in either _brion gysin let the mice in_, _the
burroughs file_
or _interzone_. no no no wait - now i remember - try
having a flip
thru and reading _the third mind_ thats where burroughs and
gysin went thu
and kinda explained cut-up & fold in and the made to order
deja vu that
interested burroughs.
i think that both burroughs/gysin and
the dadas were interested in
breaking down
barriers on the ownership and class of art. dada as anti-art
and the cut-up in
which anyone (altho burruoghs does say that it works
best in the hands
of a "master")can create viable texts thru "recycling"
other pieces....
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:05:56 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
In-Reply-To: <33C47BDA.74EA@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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>There have
been a couple of references so far to something about Bull and
>June and a
murder. Can't find the other references
at the moment
>but here
again on page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between
>June and
August everything happened, the murder took place." Is this
>ever
explicated?
_____________
murder of
demented stalker of lucien carr by same. forget his name. andy
wharhol was
right/
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:18:25 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
Comments: To:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
>
_____________
> murder of
demented stalker of lucien carr by same. forget his name. andy
> wharhol was
right/
> mc
David Kamerrer.
Carr's obsessive gym coach or something like that...
adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:11:19 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: To Cody it was a vision..
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I still haven't
caught up with all the posts on beat-l AND reading VOC at the
same time
as this nation is
going berserk over the heatwave and the
deeds of Danish
cyclists "on the road" in Tour de France, and on top of that the
upcoming
Copenhagen visit by Bill Clinton, so if someone has already brought up
this
subject please
bear with me. Anyway, on p.64 (McGrawHill), it says, "To Cody it
was a
vision, the
moment of his arrival that everybody was waiting for, yet even
though he
stood in the door
at the side of the great cool Tom Watson the Virgil of this
big
Inferno..."
My first question
is who Tom Watson is supposed to be? My second, and most
important
question, is to
do with what "role" Dante, Virgil and the Divine Comedy can be
said to
have had for
Kerouac's own poetic vision ?
My own only
input, really, is that I know from the JK ROMnibus that Dante was
way up
high on his own
reading list; the second thing is that Kerouac's understanding
of beat
and beatitude
must have been inspired to some extent at least by Beatrice, the
women
Dante was
supposed to have fallen in love with as a child, and even though they
barely
knew each other
Dante was on a lifelong quest to regain her, finally meeting her
in
Paradiso. When he
first went to hell he was met by Virgil, his guide through the
many
layers.
Has anyone any
thoughts or information on this matter ?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:38:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:05 PM
7/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>There
have been a couple of references so far to something about Bull and
>>June and
a murder. Can't find the other
references at the moment
>>but here
again on page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between
>>June and
August everything happened, the murder took place." Is this
>>ever
explicated?
>_____________
>murder of
demented stalker of lucien carr by same. forget his name. andy
>wharhol was
right/
>mc
>
>
In the tapes they
were talking about Burroughs (Bull) killing his wife
(June). A lot of the tape is ttheir conversation of
what it was like when
Cody was staying
at Bull's farm in Texas with Irwin and Huck.
Later they
are talking about
what happened in Mexico when Bull killed June.
Cody asks
the pretinent
question of what Bull feels when he hears the William Tell
Overture. Bull's first story was that they were doing a
William Tell trick
where he tried to
shoot a glass off his wife's head but missed and killed
here. In the tape they talk later of how Bull
changed his story and said
the gun went of
accidentally.
There is a lot of
discussion in the tape about Bull. Of
course Bull is
William Burroughs
who killed his wife in Mexico City by shooting her at
close range in
the head. He was never prosecuted for
this.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:47:50 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
In-Reply-To: <l03020901afea8e8589d3@[206.25.67.129]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Thu, 10 Jul
1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> >There
have been a couple of references so far to something about Bull and
> >June and
a murder. Can't find the other
references at the moment
> >but here
again on page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between
> >June and
August everything happened, the murder took place." Is this
> >ever
explicated?
>
_____________
> murder of
demented stalker of lucien carr by same. forget his name. andy
> wharhol was
right/
David Krammerer
<sp?> or something like that. The
reason Kerouac and
Ginsberg, I
think, went to jail (asylum for Ginsy) and Kerouac got out by
marrying. Chronicled, I'm told, in the unpublished
(soon to be published
I thinks I heard
somewhere) _And_The_Hippos_Were_Boilded_in_Their_Tanks_.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586
Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:13:34 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Diane De Rooy & MemBabeCollection
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Diane De Rooy
wrote to G. Nicosia:
>>And let
me caution you here: you are certainly free to write me one response
>>to this
letter, personally, at this address. If you opt for that, I will
>>accept
the letter, but after that, I'm blocking you from my email, and will
>>consider
any other contact from you to be harassment. If you infer, imply,
>>directly
state or otherwise opine in any public forum, in writing or
>>verbally,
that I am lying or am a liar, or attempt to discredit me or harm my
>>reputation
in any way, I will not demonstrate to you the good will and
>>tolerance
you've enjoyed from all the other people you've libeled and
>>slandered.
>>
>>Diane De
Rooy
Gerry Nicosia's answer was right to the point.
No need to repeat it.
Diane:
I'm taking
Patricia Elliots response to heart and sending this to the list.
I have tried to
give all parties to this conflict the benefit of the doubt.
I don't like to
judge. However, since I think I was the person who put you
in touch with
Gerry Nicosia when you told meyou were involved with writing
a story about JK
and/or Jan K , I have to state that I am completely
perplexed at where this has gone and seems to be going.
I do not question
that you have authored articles and done some features
for NPR--although
I have not read any of them, nor heard them. You tellme
youhave. I
believe you. Yet there are so many elements that would have
provided you with
answers to questions you were asking that seem to have
been missed.
The catalogue, of
what U.MassLowell purchased from Gerry, had to be a key
element in your
research. The catalogue has been mentioned frequrently over
the past couple
of months. You know that most collections are catalogued
yet it appears
you have never requested a copy from the library. This would
have shown that
Gerry's description of the collection was true, and that
what you have
been told--that the collection contained no original
material--was a
lie. That alone, should have made you suspect of some of
your sources.
Sometimes, when a
person gets caught up in a story--a story that's
important to
them--and the information they want isn't forthcoming, they
allow a
not-unusual-incident (such as Gerry refusing you access to certain
information/material)
to adversely affect your judgement about that person.
I think this has
happened to you.
I can claim no
succes as a writer, but I have some skills at research. As a
researcher I
would advise you to reevaluate the direction your research is
taking you and to
step back for an objective look at where you find
yourself and who
you appear to be aligning yourself with.
THIS TO GERRY
NICOSIA:
Gerry,
There appear to
be a few people who are going to be taking shots at you
regardless of what the facts are. Sometimes it's
difficult to ignore
unwarrented
accusations. Please try to do so. I, as a Korean War vet, along
with vets from
all recent wars and particularly the vets from the Vietnam
War, are waiting
for one of the most important publishing events to come
out of that war,
the history of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War--the
VVAW movement.
With 58,000 dead in that war and another 58,000 suicides and
drug deaths of
returned Vietnam Vets, HOME TO WAR is being counted on to
provide
desperately needed information about the indespensible role
veterans played
in ending that war. Hopefully it will provide a closure to
the suffering of
those to talk, but are seldom heard, and those who
demonstrate, but
are seldom seen.
Write On Gerry.
Ignore the distractions. At least for now.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
375,913 visitors from 07-96 to 07-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:23:37 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: chat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
i tried the chat
room. no one there. i asked some people if they
were list members,
and received several "huhs?" in response.
anyhow, i'll
probably be lurking there on mon.s and thurs.
around 2 p.m.
indiana time,
whatever that is.
hope to see some
of you there.
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:24:08 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Diane DeRooy & Membabe Collection
It seems to me
that the letter forwarded to the list by Jo Grant was a
private
communication between two people and should not have been
reposted to the
list. I urge listmembers with any
feelings on this
matter to
communicate them directly to Mr. Grant rather than to post
such replies to
the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:33:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: jo grant/nicosia
In-Reply-To: <v03007802afe96a48dc7e@[156.46.45.77]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i would like to
add my voice to jo grant's request that you forge on with
the book that so
many vets AND nonvets have waited for so long. your Memory
Babe, despite all
the whoolawhoola that has come to pass on this list, is
one of the most brillant
pieces of literary autobiography written and in my
opinion the best.
mc
>>Gerry,
>
>There appear
to be a few people who are going to be taking shots at you
>regardless of what the facts are. Sometimes it's
difficult to ignore
>unwarrented
accusations. Please try to do so. I, as a Korean War vet, along
>with vets
from all recent wars and particularly the vets from the Vietnam
>War, are
waiting for one of the most important publishing events to come
>out of that
war, the history of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War--the
>VVAW
movement. With 58,000 dead in that war and another 58,000 suicides and
>drug deaths
of returned Vietnam Vets, HOME TO WAR is being counted on to
>provide
desperately needed information about the indespensible role
>veterans
played in ending that war. Hopefully it will provide a closure to
>the suffering
of those to talk, but are seldom heard, and those who
>demonstrate,
but are seldom seen.
>
>Write On
Gerry. Ignore the distractions. At least for now.
>
>j grant
>
>
>
>
>
> BE ON THE WATCH
>for items
stolen from the Keroauc Collection
> O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
>http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
>
>Academic
& Small Press Authors & publishers
> display books free at
> <http://www.bookzen.com>
> 375,913 visitors from 07-96 to 07-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:34:58 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: not beat related list question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
WARNING: this
question isn't beat related, feel free to delete.
well, for the few
of you left. does anyone know of a list,
or chat room,
that would be
appropriate for a would-be, wanna be, Poe scholar. (not me,
a friend).
i'd appreciate
any input.
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:21:00 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Bill Gargon
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Bill,
Regarding the De
Rooy - Nicosia post. I must have missed where the post
came from.
Thought it was the Beat-L. Must have been sent directly to me.
Sorry for the
inconvenience.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen
from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic &
Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
375,913 visitors from 07-96 to 07-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:32:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Course
Yeah, good idea.
He wants me to do anything I think up.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:48:57 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: CORNIX and VORTEX
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
My vortex has
been glommed onto. The following post should
be of relevan=
ce
to some on the
beat-list which started me and Buchenroth on this train. =
I
don't know if it
relates to beat poetry; it might be too fast.
Charles Plymell
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
From: mike@infinet.com (Michael L. Buchenroth)
Reply-to: mike@infinet.com
To: CVEditions@aol.com
Date: 97-07-10
08:43:41 EDT
CVEditions@aol.com
wrote:
>=20
> PS: What
does glom mean?
Wow! That's a
real good question. I could only find the following
contexts to try
to get a meaning...
As near as I can
figure, I think, this personal example might represent
what they mean by
glom...
At Ross I can not
get the Cornix Java Scripts to run. I can only get
them to run here
at home. At work I have to have all necessary files in
a subdirectory
along with the cornix file and run the cornix file with
my browser (I use
Netscape) right off my hard drive rather than the
internet... I
guess glom might be synomous with "works." I'm not being
sarcastic, just
attempting, as you, to figure out what they use 'glom'
to mean!
Perhaps glomming
will allow AOL web users to run the scripts, "In the
new AOL glom
version, all other text fields or views within the AOL
interface are
accessable to the Vortex. This includes the AOL email
reader. As well
as news and other displays which are local to AOL and
not accessed via
the internet."
Note: Vortex, NG
(Next Generation) will have the ability to glom your
browser the same
way that we are today glomming email readers in our
current versions.
Anyone accepted for the beta test version of the
Cornix applet has
already had their name added to the beta test group
for Vortex NG.
Letters of
notification will be sent out soon.=20
***
The unique Vortex
display is currently being altered to provide glomming
support to Lotus
ccMail. Preliminary tests are underway with an
expectation that
this new version will be available by the 29th of July,
1997.=20
Vortex now can
glom AOL 3.0! Read your AOL email and news with Vortex!
Please note that
Vortex support for the AOL interface is limited to
version 3.0 of
their program and does not support their internet
browser. As is
done in the currently shipping versions, you must save
web pages to disk
in order to open and read them in Vortex. In the new
AOL glom version,
all other text fields or views within the AOL
interface are
accessable to the Vortex. This includes the
AOL email reader.
As well as news and other displays which are local to
AOL and not
accessed via the internet.
***
Here's another
contet: (I especially like this line, "...glom onto it
like some space
alien software, and suck out the contents of the message
to be read."
***
Glomming Eudora!
with Vortex=99=20
Quick Reference
To glom your
Vortex reading tool onto Eudora for reading your email,
please follow the
steps below.
1 - Start
Vortex.=20
a - When Vortex
is up and running, click on the =91Attach=92 menu item. T=
his
menu item will
then change to =91Detach=92 to indicate readiness and to
allow you to go
back to regular file mode.=20
b - Minimize
Vortex.=20
2 - Start
Eudora.=20
a - Using Eudora
normally, retrieve your email for reading.=20
b - Choose an
email to read. When it comes into its regular Eudora
window, you can
either progress to
step 3 or to 2-
c.=20
c - For long
emails, you can locate the section that you wish to read,
and highlight it.
Then proceed to step 3.=20
3 - Maximize
Vortex.=20
It is the act of
maximizing Vortex that is the trigger to hunt for
Eudora, glom onto
it like some space alien software, and suck out the
contents of the
message to be read.=20
4 - Return to
Eudora.=20
When Vortex has
finished the display of the email message, it will
return to a
minimized state unless in stopped mode.=20
Internet browser
support
Our plans for
glomming and control ability for internet browsers are on
track and still
to schedule. We expect that a release of the new Vortex
Win32 version
featuring internet browser glom and remote control will
hip on schedule in
early August.=20
This version will
work only with Windows 95 and Windows NT.
***
I looked 'glom'
up in Princeton's WordNet. I get only verb with this one
sense:
Sense 1
steal, hook,
snitch, thieve, cop, knock off, glom, take illegally --
(take by theft)
=3D> take --
(take by force; "Hitler took the Baltic Republics"; "The arm=
y
took the fort on
the hill")
***
I hoped to get a
word that related to Cornix's web pages... The army
glommed the fort
on the hill???? Certainly new to me!!!
***
I just got this
beta version of an interface to the WordNet database. It
searches words
that ryhme with nother word and at same time within a
specifed
semantical context or whatever. =20
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dougb/rhyme.html
WordNet is at
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/
I use WordNet
frequently! I have used its "grep" search which is an old
Unix command for
searching out "all" occurances of character
combinations
within a database. WordNet contains the largest English
Lexicon
electronic database I have yet found out there! So when wordNet
grep searches for
some letters, it searches the English language!
Consequently, it
can consume some serious time if the letters occur
commonly. For
example, a search of all occurances of the characters red,
WordNet would
take a while, but would display every occurance,
hyphenated
included... I used it to find rhymes. Now these folks are
writing
interfaces to do this, but defined or with semantical
boundaries. What
could Poe have written with such tools?
***
I sure don't
intend to preach or teach, just share stuff I've found on
web useful... If
Charles hadn't written to me about the Cornix site, I
would not have
found it. It really interests me. As I wrote earlier, I
have used
machines (file stripe projectors modified) that did same thing
but projected on
screen. I have researched subliminal projection, even
talked to Dr
Becker several times on phone and corresponded by letters,
and he and Vicary
patented the original subliminal projection device!
This type of
stuff 100% interests me. I have a huge huge collection of
photocopies of
research on subliminal perception and effect. Dr. Wilson
B Key told me
once after a lecture in Michigan, I had the largest such
bibliography he'd
ever heard about. He had invited me to that lecture at
Albion College in
1980. I was extremely grateful Charles and Michael
shared this
cornix site with me!!!!=20
-Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:56:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
In a message
dated 97-07-10 09:36:04 EDT, you write:
<< by the
way, mr buchenroth, after all these years your little web site
> with the exploding text has added
something to my reading. kool! ouch,
> my mind it keeps expanding.
> p >>
It might end up
with Lord Buckley, that old wig stretcher himself.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:19:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Course
I would be very
very interested in this... please keep me posted!!
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 5:32 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Course
Yeah, good idea.
He wants me to do anything I think up.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:28:26 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
His Lordship!!!!! yasss, yasss dig that cat, man
for those of you
interested:
http://www.industrialhaiku.com/Lord_Buckley_Online.html
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 5:56 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
In a message
dated 97-07-10 09:36:04 EDT, you write:
<< by the
way, mr buchenroth, after all these years your little web site
> with the exploding text has added
something to my reading. kool! ouch,
> my mind it keeps expanding.
> p >>
It might end up
with Lord Buckley, that old wig stretcher himself.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:56:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: asterisks
It may have been
that the metaphor with the "fucked over' connotation came in
spontanieous
hipster language; then the "sex
act" meaning came so something
had to be done.
While fuck got past the censors literal
motherfucking would
have caused
publishers to back off. Better to follow the bouncing asterisks
and Allen could
have all the connotations. He made tradeoffs. Literary
gamesmanship for
censorship. What fun we have with this.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:20:38 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: the tape
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Finally made it
to the end of the taped section, am beginning Imitation
of the Tape
section. These are the things I found
most interesting in
the very slow
going taped part.
pg. 170-173 When they are reading a letter from Cody's
father, three
pages of
speculation about the words he has trouble spelling combined
with a few of
Codys memories, like "We went fouteen thousand miles
according to what
he tells me..."
Pg. 182
Jack bragging
like he needs to fit in, after all of Cody's stories,
"--because
all I thought about then was eating and fucking, see, as I
should, as all
men should all the time."
Pg. 187
Jack's
description of quitting sports for writing: "One afternoon it
started to snow,
Beethoven came on, it was time for me to go to
scrimmage...I
said to myself, 'Scrimmage my ass...I'm gonna sit here in
this room and dig
Beethoven, I'm gonna write noble words,' you
know'--that's the
way I quit football (laughing) nothing more logical or
less...logical"
pg. 189-190
Jack's discussion
with Bull about dying: "'Bull,', I'm saying, 'Jesus
Christ, people
die don't they, I mean, what happens when you die? What
happens after
you're dead? what goes on?' Bull says, 'Well, when you die,
you're dead, that's
all'..."
Pg. 207
Cody's memory of
his father: "Well, I can't remember much, it seems to me
we'd sit and talk
on the bus, I was embarrassed by his stupidity and that
people could dig,
you know, and perhaps by his appearance, and I remember
it was very cold
and everything was awful because one of the buses broke
down--
Pg. 215
Cody's
philosopher/poet discussion
"...I said
'Well Val, course I think the most important men in the world,
the most
important thing in the world of course and the thing that really
counts of course
is philosophy,' and he said, 'Oh, why no it's, ah, to me
I should think
that the...poet is much more important than the
philosopher.' I
said 'What?' and I was so stupefied and astounded and
nullified and
disturbed that anyone could honestly believe that, that I,
well I--you know,
I really was, ah, upset about it..."
Then at the end
of his thought process, Cody says, "...suddenly I
realized that the
philosopher was not--that the poet was more important
than the philosopher,
you see--"
Pg. 216
Cody says,
"...well I did of course live in a very strange frantic
world..."
Pg 218-219
When Cody
discusses his own experience with writing (in contrast to Jack,
who is writing):
"I said to myself 'At last I'm going to begin my
novel,'--been
thinkin about it for a year or two, not thinking about it
at all
completely, I just knew I'd be doing it, it never occurred to me I
couldn't
write. So I sat down, I said, ah, 'Cody
Pomeray was born on
February eighth,
ah, 'twenty-six, ah, well?...'couldn't get past
that--and from
that day until fours years later I never wrote another
word, 'cause I
realized I couldn't--it never occurred to me the problems
of the writer, or
problems of anything, I just--it never, it was
completely blind,
I'd have never imagined, I'd never--can't believe that
I was so
naive..."
Pgs. 233-236
The speculation
about the murder of Bull's wife, combined with their
theorizing about
when death happens is, I think, the best part of the
whole tape. Questioning about what Bull thinks when he
hears the William
Tell Overture,
whether Bull or June herself put the apple on her head,
whether it was
that he killed her trying to shoot the apple off, and then
lied about it
being an accident when his gun unintentially went off.
This blends with
other thoughts of 'sudden death,' including Finistra
(whoever he is)
who tried to commit suicide several times and never died,
and it was then
really a joke on him, so to speak, because he then died
accidentally. And talking about Irwin (Ginsberg):
Jack: And Irwin, nothing'll happen to him either
Cody: No, he's
afraid and calculating--
Evelyn: He's
cautious
(By the way, who
is Evelyn supposed to represent?)
And last of all,
Cody's own thoughts on being normal (after being put on
probation):
Cody: ...I was
just normal young kid going around you know
Evelyn: Normal!
Cody: Well, I
mean, you know, normal-seeming. I'd go to work, and go
home, go and try
to get a girl or somethin, only thing was, these
cars..."
Neat the end of
the taped section, the reading got a little easier,
seemed more like
two guys sitting around talking about the stuff they'd
done, very
reminscent of OTR. There is a lot of
garbage thrown in, still
makes one wonder
if the every moment/word is eternal really plays itself
out.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 03:11:33 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: asterisks
of all the
explanations, this one strikes me as THE ONE
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Pamela Beach Plymell
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:56 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: asterisks
It may have been
that the metaphor with the "fucked over' connotation came in
spontanieous
hipster language; then the "sex
act" meaning came so something
had to be done.
While fuck got past the censors literal
motherfucking would
have caused
publishers to back off. Better to follow the bouncing asterisks
and Allen could
have all the connotations. He made tradeoffs. Literary
gamesmanship for
censorship. What fun we have with this.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:31:03 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cody: the tape
Comments: To:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Pgs. 233-236
>The
speculation about the murder of Bull's wife, combined with their
>theorizing
about when death happens is, I think, the best part of the
>whole
tape. Questioning about what Bull thinks
when he hears the William
>Tell
Overture, whether Bull or June herself put the apple on her head,
>whether it
was that he killed her trying to shoot the apple off, and then
>lied about it
being an accident when his gun unintentially went off.
>
>This blends
with other thoughts of 'sudden death,' including Finistra
>(whoever he
is) who tried to commit suicide several times and never died,
>and it was
then really a joke on him, so to speak, because he then died
>accidentally.
This staement of
yours, "who is finnestra" indicates to me that the book can
stand on its'
own.
Not knowing who
finstra was you still floowed it very well and made these
great
observations we are enjoying reading.
Finestra was Bill
Cannestra, a friend of "the gang"
He lived in a loft they
partied at a
lot. Apparently he was a pretty wild and
crazy guy. He got
himself killed
trying to climb out of the window of a subway car and halfway
out the train
came to a tunnel and he was smashed to death.
Of note is that
Finestra/Canastra's girlfriend was Joan Haverty, Kerouac's
furure second
wife and mother of Jan Kerouac. She was
living in the loft
after he
died. It was her and that loft that is
mentioned at the end of On
The Road where
she calls down to Paradise.
Evelyn of course
is Cody's wife, carolyn Cassady. If you
mean who is she
supposed to
represent mythicly or whatver, I don't know.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:39:53 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: sojourner beat
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Charles Plymell
wrote:
THE HIDDEN
EQUINOX
A hothouse of
idiots makes
liquid skin flash
next to me
while a voice
from France calls
"buy me a
bicycle and cut my skin"
billboards on
that third fall day
saw a keen
equinox frigid and delightful
move through the
cables of Brooklyn Bridge
where someone
carved a heart to Crane.
That changed the
seasons and the veins
which brought
desire in me to change.
(Like a
translation from an esoteric script.)
I wanted a 10
cent custard
I felt bold
walking down Delancey
with the Brooklyn
yellow pages
under my arm
looking for a number
that wouldn't
help me anyway.
I strayed beyond
the season's shear
walked up to the
vendor standing there
shook his
vegetables and the cart
beside the
wrought iron park
while he listened
to Caruso's voice
shaking the brick
streets
like the big
truck fleets.
***
Charles,
I find your poem,
THE HIDDEN EQUINOX, taken from Charles Plymell's
"Robbing The
Pillars ~ For Generation X in the Age of Apostasy," which I
have copied and
pasted into this post, purely enchanting, harnessingly
raw BEAT, poetry!
I read this poem repeatedly as it so eloquently
speaks... I
compare this poem to Frost's "The Road Not Taken."
http://www.columbia.edu/acis/bartleby/frost/60.html
gopher://gopher.vt.edu:10010/02/67/3
Crane: THE COLD PASSED RELUCTANTLY
FROM THE earth,
and the retiring fogs revealed an army stretched out on
the hills,
resting... "... Don't forgit about the socks and the shirts,
child; and I've
put a cup of blackberry jam with yer bundle, because I
know yeh like it
above all things. Good-by, Henry. Watch out, and be a
good boy
..."
Does Henry's
blackberry jam seem similar to 10-cent custard?
Does "a
voice from France" belong to Pam? Elizabeth? (because of
bicycle/cut)
Both?
Does liquid skin
refer to the Jones?
What number
(looking for a number that wouldn't help me anyway) did you
seek?
The way the
equinox moved through the bridge cables channels
physiological
reaction via my spine, my intestines, up through my gut,
and onto into
some distant limbic system synapse! --past Henry's
[frigid] Civil
War fog, through veins "To where it bent in the
undergrowth;"
there, where "TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood," in the
Brooklyn Yellow
Page's mental image, mirrored, alive, change... God
Damn!
I consider your
"THE HIDDEN EQUINOX" classic!
PS
Sense 2
classic -- (an
artist who has created classic works)
=> artist,
creative person -- (a person whose creative work shows
sensitivity and
imagination)
--------------
-Michael L.
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:17:54 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: sojourner beat
In-Reply-To: <33C5FF69.9E0@buchenroth.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:39 AM -0700
7/11/97, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
> Charles
Plymell wrote:
>
> THE HIDDEN
EQUINOX
> move through
the cables of Brooklyn Bridge
> where
someone carved a heart to Crane.
>
>
gopher://gopher.vt.edu:10010/02/67/3 Crane: THE COLD PASSED RELUCTANTLY
> FROM THE
earth, and the retiring fogs revealed an army stretched out on
> the hills,
resting... "... Don't forgit about the socks and the shirts,
> child; and
I've put a cup of blackberry jam with yer bundle, because I
> know yeh
like it above all things. Good-by, Henry. Watch out, and be a
> good boy
..."
am starving,
raving tired here <<2:15am>>.
Terribly curious
who this "Crane" person is.
Can't gopher and don't
recognize the
above passage that Michael has so graciously posted <<thank
you, thank you
and CP both!>> I'm thinking this
is Arthur Crane, a
painter/photographer
related to the Steiglitz group. Of
course, I'm
starving, raving
tired here. Any further annotation most
appreciated.
crane = a species of bird
crane = machine used to lift
heart of crane ~= heart of Cain
cheers,
Douglas <<I saw the best desktops
of my generation fail to rebuild...
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:59:54 -0400
Reply-To: Joe Buschini <joeb@SMPLANET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe Buschini <joeb@SMPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: sojourner beat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The gopher
reference quotes Stephen Crane (whose
influence as a beat
progenitor might
be worthy of discussion). The HIDDEN EQUINOX, however,
apparently
alludes to Hart ("heart") Crane.
>Terribly
curious who this "Crane" person is.
Can't gopher...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:54:10 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: who is MemBabe?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i wrote:
help
MemBabe@aol.com
wrote:
>que pasa?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:44:54 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: eye heart crane
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ok, pulled out
one of my art history compendium books.
can't find the one
I'm looking for
(must have tossed it). Sew eye heart
crane with my one
good eye:
from pg 327 of "the shock of the
new" by Robert Hughes:
<<
"[...] Their
environment was not as message-laden as ours, but they were
not used to it,
and so its vividness has not stalled.
The true home of the quick message,
after World War I, as New York
City. It's shapes were already a subject for American
artists by 1920.
For Joseph
Stella, an Italian migrant painter --as, in the late twenties,
for the Ohio-born
Hart Crane--the Brooklyn Bridge was the supreme image of
collective
creativity, tying past and present into one epigram of social
coherence (plate
219). It was the New World's answer to
the Eiffel Tower;
or, as Stella put
it, "the shrine containing all the efforts of the new
assertion of
their powers; an opotheosis".
>>
--well, that
passage mostly talks about Stella, but the Brooklyn Bridge
info is good.
cheers,
Douglas <<running>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:37:09 -0400
Reply-To: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: no reason!
Comments: To:
Marioka7@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>If anyone is
interested in continuing to receive my posts or in staying in
>touch please
let me know. Otherwise i will no longer
post anything that
>doesn't have
the word "Ginsberg", "Burroughs", or "Kerouac" in
it. I'm sorry
>for the
inconvenience I have caused by posting my own writing and not that of
>others. i see what an effort and consumption of time
it is for some people
>to click on
the delete key.
>
>am
unabashedly nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it
>out on YOU,
>love,
>maya<<sick
of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)
oh maya, don't apologize. you're not the only one; and besides, i
think that your
posts are what this list is all about.
just let it happen.
i'm guessing that
somebody got to you with some comment; but screw 'em i
say. for every jerk that complains there are many
silent folk like myself
that have no
trouble with the delete button. i've got
no sympathy for such
whiny bastards
when i get from one to two hundred e-mails a day (summer's
the slow
time). i will say that you have more
time on your hands to scribe
than i seem to.
and i sit in front of the computer all day!
no regrets!
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:27:03 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
Comments: To:
runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
In-Reply-To: <l03020900afec0416c35b@[198.5.212.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 11 Jul
1997, runner711 wrot
> for the
Ohio-born Hart Crane--the Brooklyn Bridge was the supreme image of
> collective
creativity, tying past and present into one epigram of social
> coherence
(plate 219). It was the New World's
answer to the Eiffel Tower;
> or, as
Stella put it, "the shrine containing all the efforts of the new
> assertion of
their powers; an opotheosis".
> >>
>
> --well, that
passage mostly talks about Stella, but the Brooklyn Bridge
> info is
good.
Interesting
stuff. Until today, I didn't know about Hart Crane or these
Brooklyn Bridge
references. Who is Stella? What in poem indicates this?
Why do the
billboards see the keen equinox frigid and delightful?
Why the third
fall day?
And I meant to
ask this earlier, Is Delancey a street? And what would
this street, if
so, contribute? And I know this question is most likely
gonna hurt later,
but I searched Alta Vista for "caruso," but got so many
different hits,
it left me confused--what does the vendor listen to if
the vendor
listens to Caruso's voice? It must contain bass enough, or
significance
enough to "shaek the brick streets."
To date, I have
read this poem as change, the kind of change that only
goes one way, or
that produces archetypal influences, like when Gatsby
first met and
fell in love with Daisy...that event change produced an
outcome
immeasurably different than had the event not occured as we all
know...
***
If so, what
change(s) have occured? Why is the equinox both frigid and
cole similar to
that little girl riding in that stage coach who was "awfully
good."
I'm confused, but
confusion is good...
***
Help...
Michael L.
Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:40:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: no reason!
Ken - i'm with
you... and i miss maya....
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:42:50 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: beat poet jack kerouac on CD &&
mM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Beatspotting at
Melody Maker, june 28, 1997, at page #29,
i found this
''ad'' poem:
"
MUTE COMMUNION
Patrick Jones, Rev Press
12:06:97
I am critic
I am corrupt
I have blood of countless
generations of artists on my h@nds
I am not sotty
the INK
spills from my h@nds and causes
tears to flow ceaselessly like a stern
m@nic street preachers fan's mum
read
read this read this
and you will find
three seconds meaning in a book of
non/sense
your approval
means nothing to me
to me means nothing
nothing means to me would
would would that I could
extract any meaning
i recently bought the collected
works of famous beat poet jack
kerouac on CD
and even that
even that,
laughable as it seemed set to the
jazzy textures of the blown sax
was
genius
compared to this, this the second
anthology of work from Nicky
Wire-endorsed Ninenties beat poet
successor EXCESSor patrick
jones
INK drips from my pen onto
sullen pages of white
i fear for the youth's/ future
you can purchase this TWO
POUNDS from rev press,
10 coronation rd blackwood NP2
1EA/ wales
i do not not
NOT recommend
it/ it is
b
o
l
l
o
c
k
s
E(vere)TT TRUE
"
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * Da! Da! DaDa i love you! *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:06:15 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Andy Warhol
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>murder of
demented stalker of lucien carr by same. forget his name.
andy
>wharhol was
right/
was writ to the
list. That reminded me of an interesting
thing that
happended two
nights ago. My mother had given to me a
series of books
she purchased for
me as a child. They were called
"Best in Children's
Books". I sat down to read my girls the story of the
Porridge pot that
would produce
porridge when told to "boil pot boil" and would stop when
told "stop
pot stop". Anyway, I noticed that
the drawings with the
story seemed to
have a unique flair. I looked to the
credits and the
artist was Andy
Warhol. The copyright was 1959. Just an interesting
little twist.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:08:55 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
thanks for
posting this, Michael. poem has a lovely
feel.
i'm probably
totally off, but here's my puny & humble take ( i don't get the
bicycle/cut my
skin thing though):
"...keen
equinox frigid and delightful" -
third day after a sunny, sharp,
cold, but lovely
fall equinox in NYC
"....
Brooklyn Bridge" - thankfully Douglas has enlightened us on this one
"That
changed... esoteric script" - the
feeling many of us have when the
seasons change,
after the langorous days of summer a time perhaps to be
brisker... like how translators of ancient spiritual
texts often tighten up
the language and
ideas and filter through their own interpretations (for
better or worse)
for those for whom they are translating
"...10 cent
custard..." given the price, i'd
say we're referring to a time
long ago, perhaps
charles' halcyon days?
"I felt
bold....help me anyway" - Delancey St. is a pretty well-known NYC
thoroughfare. i confess i'm mystified by what it is he's looking
for...
maybe an
acquaintance who's last name & number he's lost? that idea seems too
prosaic to
me... your notion of Frost may be more
to the point (hhhmmm,
that's an
interesting juxtaposition in the quotes above, wonder if it's
relevant to the
meaning here?)
last stanza - used to be alot of cart vendors in
NYC. sounds like he walked
out of the wind's
range to this vendor, maybe bought some of his vegetables.
this guy's got
the legendary tenor of all operatic tenors blasting from his
portable radio or
something. believe me, caruso's voice
could shake the
streets like a
truck and shake you down to the roots of your soul.
help, charles...
fill in the blanks. and please forgive
me if the above is
idiotic.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:32:28 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane (was: sojourner beat)
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Michael writ:
>> Who is
Stella? What in poem indicates this?
The quote from
the Hughes book was mighty slim on Hart, so I included
Stella as
well. (Thanks to Joe Buschini for the
name clarification).
You might do a
search and see what happens, or even better checkout the
local
library/bookstore. _Gardner's_ gigantic
World of Art is what I
was looking for
this morning, but couldn't find.
>> Why do
the billboards see the keen equinox frigid and delightful?
a cold winter
day, walking stoically from one part of town to another,
seeing the light
quote unquote? Billboards and grafitti
marking out a
personal space?
><<And I
know this question is most likely
>gonna hurt
later, but I searched Alta Vista for "caruso," but got so many
>different
hits, it left me confused--what does the vendor listen to if
>the vendor
listens to Caruso's voice? It must contain bass enough, or
significance
enough to "shaek the brick streets.">>
The voice of one
man, making his presence known. Gregory
Caruso, the
beat
writer/poet? The reverberating voice
conclusion ties in nicely
with the
"liquid skin flash", bicycle cut skin, moving cables of the
brooklyn bridge,
and the walk down Delancey. A path taken
by foot, not
car or bus,
apparently. Different kinds of
'movement' through various
'territories'.
Shocks and realizations
reaching a far destination.
<<france>> CP
thinking of phone
call from Caruso, speaking in Caruso's voice to the
>vendor. An adoption, translation, an esoteric skin??
>
><<To
date, I have read this poem as change, the kind of change that only
>goes one way,
or that produces archetypal influences, like when Gatsby
>first met and
fell in love with Daisy...that event change produced an
>outcome
immeasurably different than had the event not occured as we all
know...>>
yes, and in the
movie with Mia Farrow and Robert Redford, don't forget
the scenes with
the optometrist's billboards. the one
with the gigantic
pictogram eye,
that seems to loom over, look at everything.
<<god?>>
>
>> I'm
confused, but confusion is good...
>> ***
>> Help...
yep. been down that road recently myself. It's been raining sandstorms
in my neck of the
woods. Personally, I'm wondering what
Caruso's voice
is saying? "go the distance" ??
and Sherri, have
just received your post, :: the phonebook is "yellow"
so I suspect ol'
CP was looking for a bike to mail to france.
some
biking
accident? and sneaking back to Michael's
interpretation, CP
realized it
wasn't going to do him any good anyway.
The changing of
seasons being a
nice metaphor for a personal journey.
<<perhaps>>??
>> Michael
L. Buchenroth
> Sherri
>cheers,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:22:07 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: sojourner beat
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<<more
thoughts while getting my lunch>>
sorry to pounce
on this. one more post on CP's poem
"the hidden
equinox" and
then I'm out.
Don't know the
context of its publishing "for gen x". but::
Caruso's voice
from france = a bridge to art, with the force of a truck,
able to make the
streets rumble with his fallings/failures
equinox =
september 23 = equal lenghts = twice a year = friendship?
walking &
biking = methods of transversing life and only the "hothouse
of idiots' and
their "liquid skins" (billboards) don't understand that
it's not the
method that's important, but the distance travelled (and
sights seen along
the way: grafitti).
life = 10c
custard
<<Man I'm
hungry>> Douglas
"the map is
not the territory" babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:47:43 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: FW: eye heart crane (was: sojourner beat)
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via backchannel,
Sherri (thank you very much!!) states <ahem>, that:
>
><<the
beat poet is gregroy corso... caruso is enrico caruso, considered to be
>the greatest
operatic tenor of all time by most people.>>
ah! I therefore retract all I said, pulling up
all stakes. I'm keeping
the burrito I had
for lunch though! <<yum>>
Charles Plymell,
where are you you you you you [[SD calling...
> ciao, sherri
[[hope you don't mind me posting this??
>Douglas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:19:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sojourner beat
Comments: To:
mike@infinet.com
Thanks for
catching that poem. It wasn't in Forever Wider and I had forgotten
all about it.
It's fun to look at my own work fresh. I think it would be a
flashy poem. I'm
learning from your poems you sent me. It
takes me a while
to study them.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:51:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: jo grant/nicosia
I second the
motion.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:05:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sojourner beat
Thank you joe for
being literate. Hart Crane was the
poets' poet. Even
Ginsy's.
Charley
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:25:36 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane (was: sojourner beat)
don't mind you
posting that at all, i meant it for beat-l, forgot to change
where to
respond <grins>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:42:08 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane (was: sojourner beat)
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Gentleman,
The whole world
is not yet available through the major search engines.
Libraries are
still helpful.
Hart Crane, very
important early 20th century Am poetry, look him up
Frank Stella,
equally important ab ex painter.
Enrico Caruso,
The ultimate tenor, on all the better jukeboxes in lthe
great italian
neighborhoods that became Bohemia's, be they the Village
in NY or North
Beach in SF.
J Stauffer
Penn, Douglas, K
wrote:
>
> Michael
writ:
>
> >> Who
is Stella? What in poem indicates this?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:36:20 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: eye heart crane
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: eye heart crane
Date: 97-07-11 23:36:13 EDT
From: CVEditions
To: love_singing@msn.com
In a message
dated 97-07-11 23:06:02 EDT, you write:
<< your notion of Frost may be more to the point
>>
Fuck Frost that
old fool, just because I have a beard and and on site under a
craggy tree, i
don't wanna be no Frost industry!
He got a few
lines going. Had to go to England to get ol crazy Pound to
publish him. he
was to far out for the academe. Can you imagine that? He
began on the S.F.
beach where I wrote REBA. He had a consession. Then moved
to Vermont. Built
a fence or something. Read at Camelot's inaguration. Then
all the little
cillen started writing frostpomes. Please don't associate me
with him. Exect
for a prize of somekind. Oh why you make it hard for me?
Old Joe Turner
sang "Please Mr, Johnson/don't play the blues so sad"
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:55:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: eye heart crane
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Two roads
diverged
in a narrow wood
i looked down one
as far
as my eye could
see
i looked down the
other as far
as my eye could
see
i looked back to
the first
then back at the
second
i stood
silent
frozen
in indecision
hours passed
my mentor's words
"choice is
tragic"
sounded in my
brain
i looked to the
first
i looked to the
second
Fuck It
i screamed
turned
and sauntered back
home
and took a
cold
shower!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
>
---------------------
> Forwarded
message:
> Subj: Re: eye heart crane
> Date: 97-07-11 23:36:13 EDT
> From: CVEditions
> To: love_singing@msn.com
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-11 23:06:02 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< your notion of Frost may be
more to the point >>
>
> Fuck Frost
that old fool, just because I have a beard and and on site under a
> craggy tree,
i don't wanna be no Frost industry!
>
> He got a few
lines going. Had to go to England to get ol crazy Pound to
> publish him.
he was to far out for the academe. Can you imagine that? He
> began on the
S.F. beach where I wrote REBA. He had a consession. Then moved
> to Vermont.
Built a fence or something. Read at Camelot's inaguration. Then
> all the
little cillen started writing frostpomes. Please don't associate me
> with him.
Exect for a prize of somekind. Oh why you make it hard for me?
> Old Joe
Turner sang "Please Mr, Johnson/don't play the blues so sad"
> Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:59:02 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
i'm sorry, i just
thought it was a helluva alot better notion than my stupid
one <grins>
it was Michael's idea!!! <whining>
<poor girl
freaks, hides her face in her hands>
was the rest of
what i said totally off too?
i really want to
lay my hands on some of your books, is there no place you can
suggest in the
Bay Area?
humbly and
sheepishly hoping you'll forget my faux pas.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:27:48 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: "buy me a bicycle and cut my
skin"
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Charles Plymell
[[and beat-list:
You sir, have
made my day. been thinking about that
poem of yours recently
posted to the
beat-list, "the hidden equinox."
just now (*:$$() figured
out, at least
another focal point, this line
"buy me a bicycle and cut my
skin"
and how it
relates to the sound of corso... caruso
pumping out a
radio down on Chauncey street
how walking
across this bridge, girders bouncing
<<beaming>>
progress and identity - death
life unescorted,
headed for the straight life
breaking beams::
sharks sir, sharks
sir, sharks are
attracted to blood
they come upon
you fast, making lots of turns
and twists, and
tumbles as the water pulls you down
<<hm>>
breathe -- I'm asking you
"buy me a
bicycle and cut my skin"
calling to ask
you in
to hear your
voice
to come home a
little
.... quicker
the sound of your
unborn child
bouncing and
quivering -- mother
How much faster
can that sound come
oh, the violent
twitch that propels it
the crackles and
spits of a torrent wind
<<twisting,
tumbling, pulling you down>>
<<hm>>
breathe -- I'm asking you
"buy me a
skin and cut my bicycle"
"bicycle
skin and buy me a cut"
"me skin cut
buy bicycle and my"
--==+ so thanx
Charley Plymell
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Hidden_equinox.html
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:28:06 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane (was: sojourner beat)
In-Reply-To: <33C6EEFF.62C4@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 7:42 PM -0700
7/11/97, James Stauffer wrote:
>
Gentlema[e]n,
>
> The whole
world is not yet available through the major search engines.
ah, not yet....
but I hear it...
what's your
number?
mine's runner711
I'm running
<<yet>>
be patient, don't
worry
--you'll hear it
.... rumbling
by the year
2010??
> Libraries
are still helpful.
yep. friends are better.
can you dig it,
brother?
deep brother,
James?
[["buy me a bicycle and cut my
skin" --who said this??
Douglas [[I think it was god....?
<<laugh>>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:31:16 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
Diane:
By now you have
learned from other posts that the murder referred to in the
taped
conversation was none other than one of the most infamous incidents in
the whole Beat mythology-
WSB's accidental killing of his wife Joan in a
drunken
"William Tell" incident, excrutiatingly recounted in many books, as
well as in the
BURROUGHS documentary and even (repeatedly) in David
Cronenberg's film
version of NAKED LUNCH ( a noble failure, I respect him for
trying). The doomed WSB, Jr. was present, age 4, among
many other details
that make this
one of the most appalling/fascinating occurrences in the
collective Beat
saga. The most poignant recounting of
and reflection on this
that I can think
of now is by WSB himself, in his introduction to QUEER.
All I can add at
this time is, first, the observation that "....in between
June and
August....the murder took place" is wrong, it happened on September
6, 1951. But the fact that other Beat legends (Cassady
and Kerouac) are
speculating like
this, less accurately than us current scholars from the
distance of
decades and a mountain of sources, is itself very interesting and
significant. This is how it really was, how history is
really made before it
is
"history" in the discord and immediacy of the moment. How do I put it-
there is both a
demystification of a well-established and documented legend,
and a message
that our own relatively anonymous cosmic
huddles have the same
legendary
qualities that we project by popular consensus onto this now-famous
group. There's more to this I can't quite get at,
it's late and enough for
now.
Secondly, I
recall from my visit with WSB in early 1995 that gun magazines
and boxes of ammunition
were scattered in his home. A gentleman
who we
visited earlier
the same day was his favorite shooting partner, with whom he
was going to
shoot the next day. I even have a set of
3 t-shirts personally
shot at and
signed by him. Many of his artworks that
he has been producing
over the last
decade or so are the result of shooting paint &or bullets at
boards, doors,
etc. Shooting, whether guns or junk, is
a constant through
his life and
work. How can he shoot at targets and
not think of the tragedy?
Read the QUEER introduction and try to tell me
he isn't sensitive to its
significance. I
think I know why the shooting continues- He was both freed
and
"grounded" (as Ginsberg put it) by what happened, he had nothing to
lose
and became the brave
pioneer I revere and enjoy and have learned so much
from, he had
"no choice except to write my way out" and has been doing so
ever since, it
was the Big Bang, indeed.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:14:02 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707120413100511@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 8:59 PM -0700
7/11/97, Sherri wrote:
> i really
want to lay my hands on some of your books, is there no place
>you can
> suggest in
the Bay Area?
Sherri, lesson
#1: don't ask the man, go find it your f'in self!
Surely this is
beat methodology? Just get in your f'in
car and go! Or
take the
BART. God, I miss San Francisco. Where is it?
--right next to
china town and
the condor strip club?? and there's a
bar right next door.
get loaded and
head up to the church just above the park.
smoke one for me
and f'in yell as
much of "howl" as you possibly can.
da tourists will
meander over, and
when they do, take out your hat, or your cup, and kindly
inform them that
they just had the pleasuring of hearing some eternal
<<Allen
Ginsberg>>. Would they care to
make a small donation?? and even
though you're
standing on the steps of the church, I don't think God or
Jesus will
mind. geez.
yeah, so go to
City Lights. Or over to Berkeley and the
used shops along
Telegraph
street. and check out the housing coops
on the UCSB campus while
you're
there. Tell em DIY sent ya.
> ciao,
> sherri
DIY Douglas :-)))))))hungry!
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:17:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Visions of Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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I have been
searching for an answer to my question about what Jack saw
in Neal and why
he made him a hero. Tonight, I went to
Memory Babe and
found the
following which appears to be from the Gregory McDonald:
Page 689:
He (JK) talked so
long and lovingly of Gerard that McDonald was moved to
inquire whether
Jack had any satisfying relationships with living
people. He had none to speak of. Finally McDonald asked, "Jack have
you ever felt
one-on-one with anybody?" Without a
second's thought,
Jack answered,
"Yeah, Cassady," and began to talk of Neal as he had
talked about
Gerard, describing their trips together but concentrating
on Neal's eyes
and the rare communication that had passed between them
and his own. At the same time he kept apologizind for his
obsession
with Neal, as
though their relationship also deeply frightened him. Yet
he didn't want
Neal to be dead; he spoke of his belief that Neal might
be alive, but
also talked of meeting him in the afterlife."
If we assume that
Nicosia's comments are accurate, then we can see a
picture
developing that explains why Neal is the hero.
He is Jack's
"brother"
in the sense that they connected on the deepest of levels
where we do not
use words. This would explain the tapes
as well.
Just a thought.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:29:57 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
did City Lights,
even tho da man already tole me they ain't
publishin it no
more, just in
case... checked out the used books section, too.
most beat stuff
is hard to come by in used book stores round here cuz it's
either not there
cuz folks don't wanna part wid it or cuz it gets snatched up
PDQ. next thing is da library... haven't had a
chance to do dat yet, man.
tomorrow checkin
at da great used bookstore a blcok from my apt.
maybe i'll
get lucky, but
only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
runner711
Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 10:14 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
At 8:59 PM -0700
7/11/97, Sherri wrote:
> i really
want to lay my hands on some of your books, is there no place
>you can
> suggest in
the Bay Area?
Sherri, lesson
#1: don't ask the man, go find it your f'in self!
Surely this is
beat methodology? Just get in your f'in
car and go! Or
take the
BART. God, I miss San Francisco. Where is it?
--right next to
china town and
the condor strip club?? and there's a
bar right next door.
get loaded and
head up to the church just above the park.
smoke one for me
and f'in yell as
much of "howl" as you possibly can.
da tourists will
meander over, and
when they do, take out your hat, or your cup, and kindly
inform them that
they just had the pleasuring of hearing some eternal
<<Allen
Ginsberg>>. Would they care to
make a small donation?? and even
though you're
standing on the steps of the church, I don't think God or
Jesus will
mind. geez.
yeah, so go to
City Lights. Or over to Berkeley and the
used shops along
Telegraph
street. and check out the housing coops
on the UCSB campus while
you're
there. Tell em DIY sent ya.
> ciao,
> sherri
DIY Douglas :-)))))))hungry!
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:43:50 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707120535260495@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:29 PM -0700
7/11/97, Sherri wrote:
> maybe i'll
> get lucky,
but only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.
gee, if you can't
find it online <<hm>> maybe you could look in the
archives everyone
on this list is talking about?
<<hm....
> ciao,
> sherri
Douglas <<getting off now>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:17:12 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Cody Notes and Queries
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Sloshing my way
still through Part 2.
Find myself
wondering whether the real Neal was really a good pool
player. Doesn't seem the right type. I have watched some great 9 ball
players. Most are really idiot savants. Great concentration and hand
and eye. Good sense of just how good they need to play
at a given time
to keep the fish
on. Can't remember any that were talkers. travel with a
horse who gets
the game up, carries money, and can sense how deep the
pockets are. Neal strikes me as maybe a decent bar
eightball player on
a table where
shots don't have to be called. Lot's of
serendipitous
slop shots and a
good patter. Don't trust Jack as a
reliable witness
on this as he was
clearly way too infatuated. Ginsberg
even less
credible.
Charley, Leon,
and all you historians, help me out on this cunnumdrum.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:08:06 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS
<2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Second Beat #3
Comments: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The Allen
Ginsberg Memorial Issue of Second Beat is available for $1.00,
and is full of
poetry and articles about the "Best Mind of Our Generation."
Send a buck to:
Camelia City
Books
2034 Johnston
Station Road
Summit, Ms 39666
Thanks,
Thadeus D'Angelo,
Camelia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:29:20 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
didn't say i
couldn't find it online - i want to buy it here. i don't buy
over the web, not
secure enough...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
runner711
Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 10:43 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
At 10:29 PM -0700
7/11/97, Sherri wrote:
> maybe i'll
> get lucky,
but only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.
gee, if you can't
find it online <<hm>> maybe you could look in the
archives everyone
on this list is talking about?
<<hm....
> ciao,
> sherri
Douglas <<getting off now>>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:26:50 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: cody thoughts
that thread bout
NC being hero, antihero, not worthy hero, whatever, keeps
beatin around in
my brain....
#1 - whatever one
might say bout NC - he seems to me to have had a very big
lionheart. hearts and spirits that big are generally a
huge attraction to
like individuals,
especially those of a romantic/idealistic bent, and bespeak
a certain
nobility... the heart to be true to
oneself, no matter how wrong
one might
be. mythology/religion/history are full
of heroes with
weaknesses....
let us not forget Achilles.
#2 - it seems to
me thatNC, to some extent, can be likened to those famous
muses who
inspired/modelled for great paintings or inspired great lit,
regardless of
what they may or may not have achieved in their own rights.
sometimes the
chemistry is the most important factor
#3 - seems to me
that JK is parallelling Cody's gradual slip from greatness in
his own mind, as
he began to be more and more fully aware
of the darker side
of NC, to that of
America's slide from idyllic dream....
additional
thoughts:
a) i wonder if this use of color should be tied
to hindu/buddhist meanings
for
colors... i don't know the meanings for
all of them, but those i do
remember seem
fitting to JK's usage - can anyone help me out on this?
b) part 2 - i'm surprised nobody picked up on
what a hoot this is... again
like
Ulysses... bunch of ribald humor... like
Bloom and the various women he
meets (eg., woman
at fish market) . does anyone know if
this
vision/dream/recollection
is all supposed to take place in one day like
Ulyssses? i mean, is this "A Day in the Life
Of" so to speak? if so, then
the book is
really bout JK and not NC.
c) love this line "These imaginings lead me backwards to
my original
poipose" and the "food example" (pg 75 Penguin '93 edition) got a good te
hee when i came
across them and they lead right into the whole Ruth/Ella
tits/legs
thing...
Cody says
"Have this picture, I've used it."
pg 76: "I
even know this is infinitely more delicious than touching Ruth's
breast itself
(though I'd do anything for the chance) - But more, more about
the breast itself
- all my life i've dreamed on breasts ( and of course
thighs, but now
we're talking of breasts, hold your Venus, we're talking about
Mars, and your
water, we're talking about milk)..."
this, while hilarious (
to me at least),
speaks volumes about his outlook on women and his feelings
towards his
mother. and all this leads straight into
what appear to be
strings of events
failed, desires unrequited. always the
promise but never
the dream come
true. the constant, futile chasing of
the disappearing
American dream.
c) i know that death was always an undercurrent
to JK"s life due to Gerard's
death, but i
wonder if it was more heavily on his mind due to his month in the
hospital, not
long before writing this book... his own uncertainty about his
health, aware of
his own mortality and the general depression that often
follows a long
illness and being around so many others who are ill or dying.
well, enough from
me...
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:57:51 -0400
Reply-To: cosmicat@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: cosmicat@EROLS.COM
Subject: Beat-L T-shirt
Comments: cc:
Waterrow@AOL.COM
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Jeffrey,
This needs
saying:
I received my
shirt yesterday along with a refund check and explanatory
letter. I agree
that the shirt is not well-printed. Much could have been
done to improve
the result, but this is what we get. No real problem.
However, I do
have a problem with the refund check. First, it was
hastily
scribbled. I realise that you probably had to write nearly a
hundred checks at
once, but it is far from your best work. Seriously, it
displays the best
of intentions, indeed it exemplifies fine qualities
and character
attributes mostly absent in the 1990's, but it won't do.
I, for one, am
unwilling to let you and WRB bear the brunt of the
expense of the
Beat-L T-shirt venture alone. The gesture is much
appreciated but
you are going to have to take back the check. If you
feel so strongly
that we, the Beat-L, have been maligned, cheated,
rooked plenty,
abused, etc. by the printers, you can send me another
shirt in exchange
for YOUR check. (I think I just stepped into an event
loop with that
line.) Mr.Weinberg, I have laid out far more for far less
many times in the
past. Thank you for your efforts, the outcome is more
than
satisfactory.
Your check is in
the mail,
Michael Nally
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 07:40:16 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: sionara, babies
Dear Beetles,
It's been a long,
winding, often very productive(for me) road, but my beetle
time has come to
an end. Lets just say that it no longer
serves my purposes.
so I am saying "ciao" until another
lifetime, when perhaps the mood will
strike me again.
I especially
appreciated the informative posts from people who really know
what they're
talking about (you know who you are).
And also thanks to the
many creative
people who posted their own work, it was often really good
(though sometimes
everyone falters, this is normal). I
still feel privileged
to have met some
of you and there are some I expect to see in print at the
bookstore in a
few years.
Thanks Charles
Plymell, you are a voice of reason among much voiced unreason.
Been nice knowin'
yas.
take care,
---maya
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:09:02 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: eye heart crane
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
>
---------------------
> Forwarded
message:
> Subj: Re: eye heart crane
> Date: 97-07-11 23:36:13 EDT
> From: CVEditions
> To: love_singing@msn.com
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-11 23:06:02 EDT, you write:
>
> Fuck Frost that old fool, just because I have
a beard and and on site
> under a
> craggy tree,
i don't wanna be no Frost industry!
>
You should thank
God you didn't grow up in the state where Frost was not
only the state
poet for a kazillion years, but where every Vermont poet
is measured
against his style of writing. I remember
when I was in high
school I
submitted my first poem to a state contest, I don't have a copy
anymore, but as I
recall it was about the insanity of the Vietnam War.
The woman in
charge of sending the poems gave it back to me with a
lecture about how
politics had no place in poetry and couldn't I pen
something about
stone walls in a pasture. Kinda makes it
clear how
choosing the
beats as a model, particularly Ginsberg, can put you outside
the mainstream,
and make you say, thank God, there is somebody else out
there with
like-minded thoughts and writing.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:57:01 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
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>Sherri wrote:
>
> i'm sorry, i
just thought it was a helluva alot better notion than my
>stupid
> one <grins>
it was Michael's idea!!! <whining>
>
> <poor
girl freaks, hides her face in her hands>
>
> was the rest
of what i said totally off too?
>
> i really
want to lay my hands on some of your books, is there no place
> you can
> suggest in
the Bay Area?
>
> humbly and
sheepishly hoping you'll forget my faux pas.
>
> ciao,
> sherri
Sherri,
Particularly in
poetry, there a place where over-analysis starts to
overide the
impact of one's initial response emotionally to a poem.
That's the
feeling I get with where you guys are going with this one.
I don't suggest that you not continue to look
for books of Charles'
poems, but in the
meantime, check out his web site,
http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
There you will
find much of his writing including a 148K file of the
poems in Robbin
the Pillars for Generation X in the Age of Apostasy,
including the one
you are discussing.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:21:11 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
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Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
>
> But the fact
that other Beat legends (Cassady and Kerouac) >are
> speculating
like this, less accurately than us current scholars from
> the
> distance of
decades and a mountain of sources, is itself very
> interesting
and
> significant.
Arthur,
I shall have to
find the intro to Queer, because I find this whole
situation incredible. How could one's whole life not be totally
affected
by such an
incident?
And I think you
may have given me insight into the importance of the tape
for the first
time--"This is how it really was, how history is really
made before it is
'history' in the discord and immediancy of the
moment...There is
both a demystification of a well-established and
documented
legend, and a message that our own relatively anonymous cosmic
huddles have the
same legendary qualities that we project by popular
concensus onto
this now-famous group."
Somehow in all of
this, the mind, memories, Cody's and Jack's thoughts
and speculations
on actual situations alter the reality, and then
recording the
actual moments of the memories, adds a new level of the
immediacy of the
moment. We as readers are already
twice-removed from
the immediacy,
and caught in our own orientation, from our particular
perspective on
the history at this point. From this
angle, the tape
makes a lot of
sense in a book where visions, moments out of time, are at
the center of the
work. I'm not sure I articulately have
gotten at this
element either,
but I have a sense of what you mean.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:21:37 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re:
unsubscribe/fyi
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> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:17:49 -0400
>
Reply-to: Marioka7@AOL.COM
> From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
> Subject: unsubscribe/fyi
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> i noticed
many people seem to have forgotten:
> You may
leave the list at any time by sending a
"SIGNOFF BEAT-L" command
> to LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (or LISTSERV@CUNYVM.BITNET).
>
> this is not
a hint to anybody so please don't jump on me.
I just wanted to
> provide this
info to those who are unsubscibing, so they don't find 10000
> messages and
wonder what the hell happened.
> --maya
>
>
this is serious
shit!! i leave for vacation and come back to 411
(that no. just
keeps on popping up!)
messages during
one week!! i wish i would've signed off! anyway,
thanx- i will
remeber next time. cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:59:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: Imitation of the Tape
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After having
struggled with the tape a bit, I didn't have overly high
hopes going into
this section, but for me, this is the best part of the
book thus
far. It starts out with an excellent,
Americanized imitation
of the style of
Joyce's interior monologue of Ulysses.
Then you have
imitations of
Wolfe and Poe (I think) all exquisitely drawn together by
Jack's own
recollections of Lowell, college, New York, etc, through
hurricanes and
baseball leagues. You have the words and
places of great
American writers,
all through together in stream of consciousness.
And this take on
the sins of America and going to college is great--
pg. 259
"I read the
Sunday comics one afternoon on a Riverside Drive parkbench;
it was pleasant,
it was an early moment of mine in New York when reading
the funnies on a
bench was synonymous, like an idea, with baby carriages
and maids and
mothers. I've since learned that they'll
hide machine guns
in baby
carriages--who put suspicion in--what was the name of that bum
who stole the
housewife's steaming pie from her kitchen windersill? In
America, the idea
of going to college is just like the idea of prosperity
is just around
the corner, it was supposed to solve something or
everything or
something because all you had to do was larn what they
taught and then
everything else was going to be handled; instead of that,
and just like
prosperity that was never around the corner but a couple of
miles at least
(and false prosperity--) going to college by acquainting
me with all the
mad elements of life, such as the sensibilities, books,
arts, histories
of madness, and fashions, has not only made it impossibe
for me to learn
simple tricks of how to earn a living but has deprived me
of my one-time
innocent belief in my own thoughts that used to make me
handle my own
destiny. So now I sit and stew in a
sophistication which
has taken hold of
me just exactly like a disease and makes me lie around
like a bum all
day long and stay up all night goofing with myself. I had
thought, in and
before college, that to be a writer was like being, of
course, the Emile
Zola of the film they made about him with Paul Muni
shouting angrily
in the streets at the dumb and stupid masses, as if he
knew everything
and they didn't know a damn thing; instead of that I
wonder what
working people think of me when they hear my typewriter
clacking in the
middle of the night or what they think I'm up to when I
take walks at 2
a.m. in outlying surburban neighborhoods--the truth is I
haven't a single
thing to wr--feel foolish...How I wish I could grow corn
tomorrow morning!
How I wish I had enough patience to go and meet Farmer
Brown in two
hours from now, 5 a.m., and go learn early morning farming
matters from him,
and sober, too; and not high on tea, either.
Instead
of that I give
myself tremendous headeaches and I am also less paid than
a Mexican in New
Mexico, and at least the Mexican in New Mexico has the
right to get
angry and to feel truly righteous in his heart, if I went
for righteousness
at the face of God on what grounds could I make such a
claim?--where
plant my stick?"
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:26:50 -0500
Reply-To: "Ann J.M.S. Harlan"
<annh@CCRTC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ann J.M.S. Harlan"
<annh@CCRTC.COM>
Subject: Re: please read this and vote
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>, Stef <Ad_Libitum@msn.com>,
HJW II
<ArchibaldLeach@msn.com>, Stuart Crosby <BRAVES10@msn.com>,
Ron Vassel
<BlizzardKing@msn.com>,
Michael Riddle
<CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com>,
Cari Who ELSE????
<CittiGirl@msn.com>, db <Dee-Bee@msn.com>,
Homebrook <Homebrook@msn.com>,
Jason Tinling <JTinlng@msn.com>,
Joseph L <JoePlacebo@msn.com>,
Kevin Mathers <KEVMATH@msn.com>,
Kel Rayner <Manatbar@msn.com>,
the little people
<MarmaladeSkies@msn.com>,
Kent <NoixDeGolf@msn.com>, Jim
B <PBRUEGEL@msn.com>,
Ask and I might tell you
<Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com>,
R <ROcean@msn.com>, Blair
<Reepoo@msn.com>,
James Sims <SimbaJim@msn.com>,
Sharon <SopAndBass@msn.com>,
Tom Gummo <TGUMMO@msn.com>,
Life is a sick joke and I'm the
punchline <The_Boogey_Man@msn.com>,
rico <UNIR1@msn.com>, Mark
<Vox_Amicus@msn.com>,
"e.e. cummings"
<What-is_death@msn.com>,
Tanya Ceccatto
<_AngelBaby@msn.com>,
_Prometheus1
<_Prometheus1@msn.com>, S Johnson <doc11@msn.com>,
Drew Eskenazi
<drewesk@msn.com>, Robert Lear <king_lear1@msn.com>,
PAUL KOLJESKI
<koljeski@msn.com>,
Silver Surfer
<mad-chatter@msn.com>, david simoni <oak123@msn.com>,
Kash Philips
<philkash@msn.com>,
anthony osborne
<rastafarian@msn.com>,
Rico Mariani
<ricom_ms@msn.com>, Robert Eback <rleback@msn.com>,
Stephen Baldwin
<sabaldwin@msn.com>,
BigDaddyRico
<Engelsguy@aol.com>, Don Green <NYCDBG@aol.com>,
cj <sjohn111@aol.com>, Kent
Smedley <Kent.Smedley@clorox.com>,
THEBODYIS1@aol.com
Comments: cc:
mychajlo@fast.net, J_DRUCK@prodigy.com,
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com,
davmark@mindspring.com,
Warshie@prodigy.com,
artworks@concentric.net, CHFriend@aol.com,
joshperi@netvision.net.il, phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu,
szucker@isd.net,
sranney@azstarnet.com, zin@juno.com,
marketingedge@msn.com,
cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il,
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
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hmmmmmmmmm, into
censorship now?
1. I believe in
freedom of speech
2. If they are
plotting in the open, you can keep an eye on them ;-)
Ann J.M.S. Harlan
annh@ccrtc.com
----------
From: Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>
To: Stef <Ad_Libitum@msn.com>; HJW II <ArchibaldLeach@msn.com>; Stuart
Crosby
<BRAVES10@msn.com>; Ron Vassel <BlizzardKing@msn.com>; Michael
Riddle
<CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com>; Cari Who ELSE???? <CittiGirl@msn.com>;
db <Dee-Bee@msn.com>; Homebrook <Homebrook@msn.com>; Jason Tinling
<JTinlng@msn.com>;
Joseph L <JoePlacebo@msn.com>; Kevin Mathers
<KEVMATH@msn.com>;
Kel Rayner <Manatbar@msn.com>; the little people
<MarmaladeSkies@msn.com>;
Kent <NoixDeGolf@msn.com>; Jim B
<PBRUEGEL@msn.com>;
Ask and I might tell you <Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com>; R
<ROcean@msn.com>; Blair <Reepoo@msn.com>; James Sims
<SimbaJim@msn.com>;
Sharon <SopAndBass@msn.com>; Tom Gummo
<TGUMMO@msn.com>; Life is a sick
joke and I'm the
punchline <The_Boogey_Man@msn.com>; rico
<UNIR1@msn.com>;
Mark <Vox_Amicus@msn.com>; e.e. cummings
<What-is_death@msn.com>; Tanya
Ceccatto
<_AngelBaby@msn.com>; _Prometheus1
<_Prometheus1@msn.com>; S
Johnson
<doc11@msn.com>; Drew Eskenazi <drewesk@msn.com>; Robert Lear
<king_lear1@msn.com>;
x <king_lear1@msn.com>; PAUL
KOLJESKI
<koljeski@msn.com>;
Silver Surfer <mad-chatter@msn.com>; david simoni
<oak123@msn.com>;
Kash Philips <philkash@msn.com>;
anthony osborne
<rastafarian@msn.com>;
Rico Mariani <ricom_ms@msn.com>; Robert Eback
<rleback@msn.com>;
Stephen Baldwin <sabaldwin@msn.com>; anniepoo
<annh@ccrtc.com>;
BigDaddyRico <Engelsguy@aol.com>; Don Green
<NYCDBG@aol.com>;
cj <sjohn111@aol.com>; BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU; Kent
Smedley
<Kent.Smedley@clorox.com>; THEBODYIS1@aol.com
Subject: FW:
please read this and vote
Date: Monday,
June 30, 1997 12:51 pm
This is
important, please take the time.
Ciao, Sherri
----------
From: Jamey Sims
Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 9:48 AM
To: 'sherry'; 'Dave'; 'jota'; 'Jacky';
'Sherri'; 'Stella'; 'Jennifer';
'Ralph'; 'David
Lang'; 'boyeeeeeee'; 'Suzie & Robert'; 'Gary'; 'The Lang
Gang'; 'Brandon
Wescott'; 'kevey'; 'Dr Cowan'; 'Renee'; 'bogie'; 'Tammy';
'Shari &
Troy'; 'Yvonne'
Subject: FW: please read this and vote
do this please
--Jamey
----------
From: Marrow
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 3:35 PM
To: Jamey Sims
Subject: please read this and vote
>From: Marrow
<mychajlo@pop.fast.net>
>Subject:
please read this and vote
>
>>From:
J_DRUCK@prodigy.com (MR JEFFREY L DRUCKENMILLER)
>>Date:
Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:39:12, -0500
>>To:
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com, mychajlo@fast.net
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>
>>for your
interest
>>
>>
>>
>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>
>>From: (Warshie) DIANNE WARSHAVER
>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>Date: 06/20
>>Time: 07:28 PM
>>
>>so, we
are never safe from crazies.....
>>
>>
>><<
Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>
>>
>>From: David Blum
>>Subject: please read this and vote
>>Date: 06/20
>>Time: 06:55 PM
>>
>>Return-Path:
<davmark@mindspring.com>
>>Received:
from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com
>>[207.69.200.11])
>> by pimaia1w.prodigy.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id SAA106760
>> for <Warshie@prodigy.com>; Fri, 20
Jun 1997 18:56:48 -0400
>>Received:
from 38.26.20.135 (ip135.an9-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
>>[38.26.20.135])
>> by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id SAA03646;
>> Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:55:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>Message-ID:
<33AAC4FA.42EF@mindspring.com>
>>Date:
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:59:22 +0100
>>From:
David Blum <davmark@mindspring.com>
>>Reply-To:
davmark@mindspring.com
>>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K)
>>MIME-Version:
1.0
>>To:
"artworks@concentric.net" <artworks@concentric.net>,
>> "CHFriend@aol.com"
<CHFriend@aol.com>,
>> "joshperi@netvision.net.il"
<joshperi@netvision.net.il>,
>> MS DIANNE L WARSHAVER
<Warshie@prodigy.com>,
>> Sarah Barnett
<phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu>,
>> Steve Zuckerman
<szucker@isd.net>,
>> "Susan E. Ranney"
<sranney@azstarnet.com>,
>> Suzie Dennis Ben David
<marketingedge@msn.com>,
>> "zin@juno.com"
<zin@juno.com>
>>Subject:
please read this and vote
>>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>>
>>>Forwarded
message:
>>>Subj: No Subject
>>>Date: 97-06-06 03:17:09 EDT
>>>From: Jonapangai
>>>To: CampNicole
>>>
>>>We
have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
>>>(again)
a usenet group where they want to keep in contact
>>>with
each other regarding their activities. I believe it is not
>>>necessary
to dwell further on these activities.
>>>
>>>The
group is rec.music.white-power
>>>
>>>To
create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is
>>>always
organised when a new usenet group is created.
>>>All
persons with an email address, and only those, can vote
>>>in
this referendum.
>>>
>>>It is
IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is
>>>cancelled.
>>>
>>>To
prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
>>>
>>> 1. Send this message to people you know
>>>
>>> 2. Send an email to the following address:
>>>
>>> music-vote@sub-rosa.com
>>>
>>> 3. In the body of your message (not in the
'subject' line)
>>> include EXACTLY and ONLY the following
line:
>>>
>>> I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>>>
>>>Since
the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the
>>>exact
line as it is given above, without adding anything, not even
>>a
>>>name.
>>>And
please send it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
>>>
>>>PLEASE FORWARD
>>>THIS
LETTER TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL ADDRESS TO
>>>PREVENT
THE GROUP FOUNDERS FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
>>>
>>>*********************************************
>>>
Israel Rubinstein
>>>
Professor of Chemistry
>>>
Department of Materials and Interfaces
>>>The
Weizmann Institute of Science
>>>
Rehovot 76100, Israel
>>>Phone:
+972 8 9342678 Fax: +972 8 9344137
>>>
E-mail: cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il
>>>http://www.weizmann.ac.il/weg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Gerardo
(Jerry) Rogoff
>>Field
Applications Engineer
>>Exar
Corporation
>>500 Clark
Rd.
>>Tewksbury,
MA 01876
>>
>>Tel.: (508) 640-8899
>>FAX: (508) 640-6926
>>Pager:
(800) 943-4064
>>
>>email:
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
>>Visit our
Website @: http://www.exar.com
>>
>>
>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>
>><Distribution
List>
>> (FJHE36A), J DRUCKENMILLER
>> (TVSG32A), STEVE BOGUS
>>
>>
>><<
End of Forwarded message >>
>>
>>
Sincerely,
Michael T.
Montgomery
mychajlo@fast.net
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<html><head></head><BODY
bgcolor=3D"#D8D0C8"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#800080"
face=3D"Arial">hmmmmmmmmm, into censorship now?<br>1. =
I believe in
freedom of speech<br>2. If they are plotting in the open, =
you can keep an
eye on them ;-)<br>Ann J.M.S. =
Harlan<br>annh@ccrtc.com<br><br><font
=
color=3D"#000000">----------<br>From:
Sherri <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>love_singing@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">><br>To:
Stef <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Ad_Libitum@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
HJW II
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>ArchibaldLeach@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Stuart Crosby <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>BRAVES10@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Ron Vassel
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>BlizzardKing@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Michael Riddle <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Cari Who ELSE???? <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>CittiGirl@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
db
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Dee-Bee@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Homebrook <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Homebrook@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Jason Tinling
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>JTinlng@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Joseph L <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>JoePlacebo@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Kevin Mathers
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>KEVMATH@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Kel Rayner <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Manatbar@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
the little people
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>MarmaladeSkies@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Kent <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>NoixDeGolf@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Jim B
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>PBRUEGEL@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Ask and I might tell you <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
R <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>ROcean@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Blair
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Reepoo@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
James Sims <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>SimbaJim@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Sharon
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>SopAndBass@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Tom Gummo <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>TGUMMO@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Life is a sick
joke and I'm the punchline <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>The_Boogey_Man@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
rico <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>UNIR1@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; Mark =
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Vox_Amicus@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
e.e. cummings <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>What-is_death@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Tanya Ceccatto <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>_AngelBaby@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
_Prometheus1
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>_Prometheus1@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
S Johnson <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>doc11@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; Drew =
Eskenazi
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>drewesk@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Robert Lear <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>king_lear1@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
x
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>king_lear1@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
PAUL KOLJESKI <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>koljeski@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Silver Surfer
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mad-chatter@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
david simoni <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>oak123@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Kash Philips
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>philkash@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
anthony osborne
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>rastafarian@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Rico Mariani <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>ricom_ms@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Robert Eback
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>rleback@msn.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
Stephen Baldwin <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>sabaldwin@msn.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
anniepoo
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>annh@ccrtc.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
BigDaddyRico <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Engelsguy@aol.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
Don Green
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>NYCDBG@aol.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>;
cj <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>sjohn111@aol.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">>; =
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">;
Kent Smedley <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Kent.Smedley@clorox.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>THEBODYIS1@aol.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000"><br>Subject:
FW: please read this and vote<br>Date: =
Monday, June 30,
1997 12:51 pm<br><br>This is important, please take the =
time.<br>Ciao,
Sherri<br><br>----------<br>From: 	Jamey =
Sims<br>Sent:
	Monday, June 30, 1997 9:48 AM<br>To: 	'sherry'; =
'Dave'; 'jota';
'Jacky'; 'Sherri'; 'Stella'; 'Jennifer'; <br>'Ralph'; =
'David Lang';
'boyeeeeeee'; 'Suzie & Robert'; 'Gary'; 'The Lang =
<br>Gang';
'Brandon Wescott'; 'kevey'; 'Dr Cowan'; 'Renee'; 'bogie'; =
'Tammy';
<br>'Shari & Troy'; 'Yvonne'<br>Subject: 	FW:
please =
read this and
vote<br><br>do this =
please<br>--Jamey<br><br>----------<br>From:
	Marrow<br>Sent: =
	Saturday,
June 28, 1997 3:35 PM<br>To: 	Jamey =
Sims<br>Subject:
	please read this and =
vote<br><br><br><br>>From:
Marrow <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mychajlo@pop.fast.net</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">><br>>Subject:
please read this and =
vote<br>><br>>>From:
<font =
color=3D"#800080"><u>J_DRUCK@prodigy.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000"> (MR =
JEFFREY L
DRUCKENMILLER)<br>>>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:39:12, =
-0500<br>>>To:
<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>rrjwalz@integrityonline.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">,
<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>mychajlo@fast.net</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000"><br>>>Subject:
please read this and =
vote<br>>><br>>>for
your =
interest<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><<
Start =
of Forwarded
message via Prodigy Mail =
>><br>>><br>>>From:	
(Warshie) DIANNE =
WARSHAVER<br>>>Subject:	
please read this and =
vote<br>>>Date:	
06/20<br>>>Time:	 07:28 =
PM<br>>><br>>>so,
we are never safe from =
crazies.....<br>>><br>>><br>>><<
Start of =
Forwarded message
via Prodigy Mail =
>><br>>><br>>>From:	
David =
Blum<br>>>Subject:	
please read this and =
vote<br>>>Date:	
06/20<br>>>Time:	 06:55 =
PM<br>>><br>>>Return-Path:
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>davmark@mindspring.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">><br>>>Received:
from =
brickbat8.mindspring.com
(brickbat8.mindspring.com =
<br>>>[207.69.200.11])<br>>>	by
pimaia1w.prodigy.com =
(8.8.5/8.8.5)
with ESMTP id SAA106760<br>>>	for <<font
=
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Warshie@prodigy.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>;
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:56:48 =
-0400<br>>>Received:
from 38.26.20.135 =
(ip135.an9-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
=
<br>>>[38.26.20.135])<br>>>	by
brickbat8.mindspring.com =
(8.8.5/8.8.5)
with SMTP id SAA03646;<br>>>	Fri, 20 Jun 1997 =
18:55:11 -0400
(EDT)<br>>>Message-ID: <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>33AAC4FA.42EF@mindspring.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">><br>>>Date:
Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:59:22 =
+0100<br>>>From:
David Blum <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>davmark@mindspring.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">><br>>>Reply-To:
<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>davmark@mindspring.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000"><br>>>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; =
68K)<br>>>MIME-Version:
1.0<br>>>To: "<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>artworks@concentric.net</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">"
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>artworks@concentric.net</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
"<font
=
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>CHFriend@aol.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">" =
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>CHFriend@aol.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
"<font
=
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>joshperi@netvision.net.il</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">"
<<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>joshperi@netvision.net.il</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
MS
DIANNE L WARSHAVER =
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Warshie@prodigy.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
Sarah
Barnett <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
Steve
Zuckerman <<font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>szucker@isd.net</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
"Susan
E. Ranney" =
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>sranney@azstarnet.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
Suzie
Dennis Ben David =
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>marketingedge@msn.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000">>,<br>>>
=
"<font
=
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>zin@juno.com</u><font
color=3D"#000000">" =
<<font
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>zin@juno.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">><br>>>Subject:
please read this and =
vote<br>>>Content-Type:
text/plain; =
charset=3Dus-ascii<br>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
=
7bit<br>>><br>>>>Forwarded
message:<br>>>>Subj: =
No
Subject<br>>>>Date: =
97-06-06
03:17:09 EDT<br>>>>From: =
Jonapangai<br>>>>To:
=
CampNicole<br>>>><br>>>>W=
e have understood
that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to =
create<br>>>>(again)
a usenet group where they want to keep in =
contact<br>>>>with
each other regarding their activities. I =
believe it is
not<br>>>>necessary to dwell further on these =
activities.<br>>>><br>>>>The
group is =
rec.music.white-power<br>>>><br>>>>To
create such a =
group, they have
to win a referendum that is<br>>>>always =
organised when a
new usenet group is created.<br>>>>All persons =
with an email
address, and only those, can vote<br>>>>in this =
referendum.<br>>>><br>>>>It
is IMPORTANT to vote only =
once, otherwise
the vote =
is<br>>>>cancelled.<br>>>><br>>>>To
prevent =
the creation of
this group, you have
to:<br>>>><br>>>> =
1.
Send this message to people you =
know<br>>>><br>>>>
2. Send an email =
to the following
address:<br>>>><br>>>> =
<font
=
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>music-vote@sub-rosa.com</u><font
=
color=3D"#000000"><br>>>><br>>>>
3. =
In the body of
your message (not in the 'subject' line)<br>>>> =
include
EXACTLY and ONLY the following =
line:<br>>>><br>>>>
=
I
vote NO on =
rec.music.white-power<br>>>><br>>>>Since
the vote is =
automatic, it is
IMPORTANT to send the<br>>>>exact line as it =
is given above,
without adding anything, not even =
<br>>>a<br>>>>name.<br>>>>And
please send it =
only once or it
becomes invalid ! =
Also,<br>>>><br>>>>PLEASE
=
FORWARD<br>>>>THIS
LETTER TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN =
E-MAIL ADDRESS
TO<br>>>>PREVENT THE GROUP FOUNDERS FROM =
CREATING THIS =
GROUP.<br>>>><br>>>>***********************************=
**********<br>>>>
Israel Rubinstein<br>>>> Professor =
of
Chemistry<br>>>> Department of Materials and =
Interfaces<br>>>>The
Weizmann Institute of =
Science<br>>>>
Rehovot 76100, Israel<br>>>>Phone: +972 =
8 9342678
Fax: +972 8 9344137<br>>>>
=
E-mail: <font
=
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=
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=
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;>Gerardo
(Jerry) Rogoff<br>>>Field Applications =
Engineer<br>>>Exar
Corporation<br>>>500 Clark =
Rd.<br>>>Tewksbury,
MA 01876<br>>><br>>>Tel.: =
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STEVE BOGUS =
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T. =
Montgomery<br><font
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ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
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t></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><=
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ont></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font=
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t></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><=
/font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></fo=
nt></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>=
</font></font></font></font></font></font></body></html>
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:30:04 -0500
Reply-To: "Ann J.M.S. Harlan"
<annh@CCRTC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ann J.M.S. Harlan"
<annh@CCRTC.COM>
Subject: Re: please read this and vote
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>, Stef <Ad_Libitum@msn.com>,
HJW II
<ArchibaldLeach@msn.com>, Stuart Crosby <BRAVES10@msn.com>,
Ron Vassel
<BlizzardKing@msn.com>,
Michael Riddle
<CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com>,
Cari Who ELSE????
<CittiGirl@msn.com>, db <Dee-Bee@msn.com>,
Homebrook <Homebrook@msn.com>,
Jason Tinling <JTinlng@msn.com>,
Joseph L <JoePlacebo@msn.com>,
Kevin Mathers <KEVMATH@msn.com>,
Kel Rayner <Manatbar@msn.com>,
the little people
<MarmaladeSkies@msn.com>,
Kent <NoixDeGolf@msn.com>, Jim
B <PBRUEGEL@msn.com>,
Ask and I might tell you
<Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com>,
R <ROcean@msn.com>, Blair
<Reepoo@msn.com>,
James Sims <SimbaJim@msn.com>,
Sharon <SopAndBass@msn.com>,
Tom Gummo <TGUMMO@msn.com>,
Life is a sick joke and I'm the
punchline <The_Boogey_Man@msn.com>,
rico <UNIR1@msn.com>, Mark
<Vox_Amicus@msn.com>,
"e.e. cummings" <What-is_death@msn.com>,
Tanya Ceccatto
<_AngelBaby@msn.com>,
_Prometheus1
<_Prometheus1@msn.com>, S Johnson <doc11@msn.com>,
Drew Eskenazi
<drewesk@msn.com>, Robert Lear <king_lear1@msn.com>,
PAUL KOLJESKI <koljeski@msn.com>,
Silver Surfer
<mad-chatter@msn.com>, david simoni <oak123@msn.com>,
Kash Philips
<philkash@msn.com>,
anthony osborne
<rastafarian@msn.com>,
Rico Mariani
<ricom_ms@msn.com>, Robert Eback <rleback@msn.com>,
Stephen Baldwin
<sabaldwin@msn.com>,
BigDaddyRico
<Engelsguy@aol.com>, Don Green <NYCDBG@aol.com>,
cj <sjohn111@aol.com>, Kent
Smedley <Kent.Smedley@clorox.com>,
THEBODYIS1@aol.com
Comments: cc:
mychajlo@fast.net, J_DRUCK@prodigy.com,
rrjwalz@integrityonline.com,
davmark@mindspring.com,
Warshie@prodigy.com,
artworks@concentric.net, CHFriend@aol.com,
joshperi@netvision.net.il,
phibarn@scisun.sci.ccny.cuny.edu,
szucker@isd.net,
sranney@azstarnet.com, zin@juno.com,
marketingedge@msn.com,
cprubin@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il,
jerry.rogoff@exar.com
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P.S. in case
you're wondering, I abstain from voting one way or the other
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<html><head></head><BODY
bgcolor=3D"#D8D0C8"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#800080"
face=3D"Arial">P.S. in case you're wondering, I =
abstain from
voting one way or the other<font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000"><br><font
size=3D2><br></p>
</font></font></font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BC8EBF.5331C680--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:09:49 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cody thoughts
Sherri:
A very thoughtful
post.
I think all of
your points are interesting possibilities.
Besides, whatever
JK may have been
thinking, meaning or influenced by when he wrote VOC or his
other works is
not necessarily the last word, so to speak.
If YOU or any
other respondent
THINKS so, it IS so. I think it was
Stravinsky who once
said that a
composer only arranges notes, each listener fills them in.
Your "always
the promise but never the dream come true" passage near the end
of your post
especially struck me. There is an
undertow of unfulfilled
yearning and
forlornness throughout JK's ouvre, which he regarded as one long
work (as does WSB
of his output). In a passage from OTR,
Sal Paradise (JK)
rushes exuberantly
down toward a river, only to run into a fence.
Throughout
OTR, it seems
that only in the pendulum movement back and forth across the
continent itself
is there a fleeting capture of "IT", what they were looking
for is just
behind or ahead in the flow of movement.
He and most of the
others he writes
about are running away from and toward something
concurrently, in
an unending treadmill like an experiential/emotional food
chain. In OTR, VOC and all the other works, we see
JK and co. circulating on
the
"quivering meat wheel" of bhuddist-influenced temporal recognition,
while
their spirits
gaze outward and upward.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:31:21 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: cody thoughts
Arthur,
yes, I have
particularly thought that JK's elusive dream is much like the
Wizard of Oz...
we always look outside ourselves, chasing things that never
surfeit. i have
some intuitive sense that, underneath it all, JK realized it
was all within
him, but the head could not inform the heart...
interpretation is
such mix of the subjective and objective.... how many times
have i read
something, listened to music and had it take on new feelings and
meanings -
increase in knowledge, state of mind, even the physical state can
heavily influence
the interpreter's reception of the input.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Arthur Nusbaum
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 1997 11:09 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: cody thoughts
Sherri:
A very thoughtful
post.
I think all of
your points are interesting possibilities.
Besides, whatever
JK may have been
thinking, meaning or influenced by when he wrote VOC or his
other works is
not necessarily the last word, so to speak.
If YOU or any
other respondent
THINKS so, it IS so. I think it was
Stravinsky who once
said that a
composer only arranges notes, each listener fills them in.
Your "always
the promise but never the dream come true" passage near the end
of your post
especially struck me. There is an
undertow of unfulfilled
yearning and
forlornness throughout JK's ouvre, which he regarded as one long
work (as does WSB
of his output). In a passage from OTR,
Sal Paradise (JK)
rushes
exuberantly down toward a river, only to run into a fence. Throughout
OTR, it seems
that only in the pendulum movement back and forth across the
continent itself
is there a fleeting capture of "IT", what they were looking
for is just
behind or ahead in the flow of movement.
He and most of the
others he writes
about are running away from and toward something
concurrently, in
an unending treadmill like an experiential/emotional food
chain. In OTR, VOC and all the other works, we see
JK and co. circulating on
the
"quivering meat wheel" of bhuddist-influenced temporal recognition,
while
their spirits
gaze outward and upward.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:32:40 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody: Imitation of the Tape
Diane:
I'm behind in
responding to some of your earlier posts, but to strike the
hammer while the
iron is hot as to this, your latest installment in the
voluminous VOC
discussion now occupying us:
The lengthy
passage you quote from this section of VOC where JK muses on his
predicament as a
writer is very poignant, tragically humorous, humorously
tragic, laugh
until you cry, cry until you laugh, etc., etc.
He gets
(descends?) into
this theme from time to time in this and other works.
There's a passage in another work that's at
the tip of my tongue/mind, I
just can't think
of it right now, I probably will remember this as soon as
"your mail
has been sent", or you can tell me if you know. Anyway, it is a
thinly
fictionalized (as usual) description of one of JK's visits to his
sister Nin's home
in rural North Carolina, and he wonders what the local
denizens think of
him as he takes long walks into the forest in the middle of
the day- do they
find him pathetic or are they envious?
He gets defensive,
showing an
essential insecurity that I suspect he never quite overcame, all
but coming out
and saying "I may seem like a shiftless loafer/bum/hobo, but
I'm busting my
butt, working hard and with scores of complete works under my
belt, albeit
unpublished after a promising start" (remember the 7 years
between the
publications of THE TOWN AND THE CITY and ON THE ROAD). Partly,
it is a
self-fortifying process, he has to assure himself of the validity and
integrity of his
efforts, at times like what he's describing in your quoted
passage, there's
no one else, not even NC, to do the assuring.
And he wavers
wildly between
self-confidence and utter despair, even literally knocking his
head against the
wall of the house, according to his description.
I think that part
of the depth of feeling the works of JK, including VOC,
elicit in the
reader is a sort of frustrated wish to cut through time and
squeeze his arm,
pat him on the shoulder, whatever, and say "people
appreciate you,
you've been validated a thousand times over, those status-quo
critics are the
ones forgotten in the trashbin of history, you've touched and
are loved by so
many....", but alas it's too late, he did not live to be
caught up with as
we have, he was "....never taken seriously while he lived"
as John Clellon
Holmes said in the (great) WHAT HAPPENED TO KEROUAC? film
biography.
Ginsberg once
said of WSB (as recounted near the end of EL HOMBRE INVISIBLE
by Barry Miles)
that his life was a demonstration of "lonely courage". In
WSB's case, he
has lived long enough for many admirers to understand and
appreciate this
quality and what it produced. The
spectre of the bitter,
bloated chronic
alcoholic that Kerouac became before his premature death
hangs over these
passages. But his works, if not his sad
haunted self during
his brief earthly
incarnation, got the last laugh and are immortal.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:01:00 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Visions of Cody
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707121829320495@msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Interesting to
note that "Visions of Cody" was the one major Kerouac work
not published
during his lifetime. It was published in
the early 70's
at the insistence
of Allen Ginsberg, who had promised Kerouac he'd get it
published and who
knocked on doors for years with the manuscript before
getting it
sold. Allen's forward, "visions of
the great remember" is in
the early
editions of 'Cody' and it is terrific.
This book being in
print is one
friend's lasting tribute to another.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:01:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NEA (was Re academics)
Comments: To:
BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
In a message
dated 97-07-12 00:28:51 EDT, you write:
<< I was
getting tired of paying (taxes) to subsidize my own competition <g>
>>
The thing that
the Nea overlooked was taht the "quality" was going down. As
Hart Crane sd in
a poem abt Akron after a song'poet fiddler==we paid the guy
because we liked
it. The NEA pitch was that it was only a
few cents out of
taxpayer's
pockets. I'd like my few cents back from all those poets who got
20 grand to
proliferate their workshop poems. If they all paid me back, I'd
have a few bucks.
If everyone who paid in those few cents wanted their money
back, that would
amount to a few million. I really got tired of the wkshop
academics who
handed money to each other. Let them find their own way. if
they have
somthing to say.
If anyone is
interested in my Catfish McDaris Chiron
interview that caused a
fuss, it is now
on line at <http://www.thing.net/~grist/homebove.htm> Robert
Bove has a fine
liitle mag going. Check it out.
BTW Dave
Breithaupt, I got the old memeo GRIST today you wanted to trade for
Apocalypse Rose,
Do you have Haselwood's edition? I'll try to make a special
edition for you
anyway.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:48:57 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody: Imitation of the Tape
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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>Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
>
> The lengthy
passage you quote from this section of VOC where JK muses
> on his
> predicament
as a writer is very poignant, tragically humorous,
> humorously
> tragic,
laugh until you cry, cry until you laugh, etc., etc. He gets
> (descends?)
into this theme from time to time in this and other
> works...He
gets defensive,
> showing an
essential insecurity that I suspect he never quite overcame,
> all
> but coming
out and saying "I may seem like a shiftless loafer/bum/hobo,
> but
> I'm busting
my butt, working hard and with scores of complete works
> under my
> belt, albeit
unpublished after a promising start" (remember the 7 years
> between the
publications of THE TOWN AND THE CITY and ON THE ROAD).
> Partly,
> it is a
self-fortifying process, he has to assure himself of the
> validity and
> integrity of
his efforts, at times like what he's describing in your
> quoted
> passage,
there's no one else, not even NC, to do the assuring. And he
> wavers
> wildly
between self-confidence and utter despair, even literally
> knocking his
> head against
the wall of the house, according to his description.
Arthur,
The role of the
writer carrying that burden of having to write about life
as well as live
it also seems to play a part in what Jack found
appealing about
the way Neal lived life. Neal was
unfettered in a way
because it was
never really his destiny to write about what they were
doing. Kerouac sensed his own gift, he not only was
sensitive, felt too
much, but he also
had to articulate all of it into words.
That makes the
fact that
publishers discarded his works doubly tragic. Here was a great
writer, as you
say, wavering "wildly between self-confidence and utter
despair."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:54:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
In a message
dated 97-07-12 05:07:15 EDT, you write:
<<
Were you ever much of a "dandy"
Charley? Ever take any interests in
fashion? >>
Shit. Haven't you
seen the photos of me "going to Kansas City in my zoot
suit? Look at:
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html and find the photos of me in
the 50s.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:49:54 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS
<2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Secind Beat
Comments: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
hey, Thadeus
here....upon suggestion from Sherri, I've decided to post a
list of the
contributors to the Allen Ginsberg Memorial Issue of Second
Beat.
Me, Thadeus
D'Angelo
my partner,
Domenic Salvatore
and a whole slew
of talented beat kats: Ralph Alfonso, Gary Parker, Michael
Stutz, David
Laslie, Christopher Lott, Simon
Seamount.....and "Allen
Ginsberg
Dying" by Lawrence Ferlinghetti
there are also a
few articles and such.
I think it's a
pretty good read, as magazines go. We tried to do our best
to honor his
memory. It's our best issue yet....but it's the first issue
since we upgraded
our system, so that says alot.
anyway, once
again:
The Allen
Ginsberg Memorial Issue of Second Beat is available for $1.00,
and is full of poetry
and articles about the "Best Mind of Our Generation."
Send a buck to:
Camelia City
Books
2034 Johnston
Station Road
Summit, Ms 39666
Thanks,
Thadeus D'Angelo,
Camelia City Books
also...for maybe
a dollar or so to cover the postage, we'll send you our
two free sample
issue....the "experimental" issues.
we started out as
a non-profit magazine. then we got real broke real fast.
now we're a
low-profit magazine. any donations in the way of a buck or so
extra would be
HIGHY appreciated, but we WILL continue to send issues for
only ONE dollar
an issue and TEN dollars for a year subscription.
I hope we live up
to our predecessors, the original beats, and I hope we
can supply to all
of you a good magazine.
once again, feel
free to submit ANY prose or poetry. it'll most likely see
print, as one of
our main functions is to let new writers see their words
in print.
that's me Second
Beat in a nutshell, people. any qeustions, e-mail us at:
2ndbeat@telapex.com
thanks again,
Thadeus D'Angelo,
Camellia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:19:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
Double -Duty
Dandy- a charachter in Last of the Moccasins. Also when Barbitol
Bob and I got
outta the joint in 50's we had a stable of girls and "girls". I
travelled the
Northwest with my sister, who was a prostitute in the 50's. The
men were rounders
or dandys or pimps, Followed basically the same roads as
Jack Black, The
sheriff checked hands for callouses to know who didn't work.
My sister's man
was the son of the sheriif of Deadwood, S.D. and a black
madam. somewhat
like East of Eden -James Dean. I migrated to Hollywood and
KC. I label
myself and genre as "Hobohemian Hipster",Also publishe in a
couple recent
issuse of NIGHT mag from the Gershwin Hotel in NYC. High
fashion as you
can get.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:41:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody Notes and Queries
In a message
dated 97-07-12 08:56:12 EDT, you write:
<< Find
myself wondering whether the real Neal was really a good pool
player.
Doesn't seem the right type. I
have watched some great 9 ball
players.
Most are really idiot savants.
Great concentration and hand
and eye.
Good sense of just how good they need to play at a given time
to keep the fish on. Can't remember any that
were talkers. travel with a
horse who gets the game up, carries money, and
can sense how deep the
pockets are.
Neal strikes me as maybe a decent bar eightball player on
a table where shots don't have to be
called. Lot's of serendipitous
slop shots and a good patter. Don't trust Jack as a reliable witness
on this as he was clearly way too
infatuated. Ginsberg even less
credible.
Charley, Leon, and all you historians, help me
out on this cunnumdrum.
J. Stauffer
>>
You got that
exactly, James. Right down to interpretation, too. Neal was a
sweetheart, but I
don't think he even liked pool halls. I remember some guy
wanting to start
something in a bar/poolhall and Neal came over to me to
"interrupt"
the play. He was a "peacable man" as any grade B movie hero wd
tell ya. Fighting
wasn't his thing. He only defended the title, "The fastest
Word in the
West". I admired him for that. His eye and coordination was for
driving, not
shooting pool.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:55:28 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "buy me a bicycle and cut my
skin"
In a message
dated 97-07-12 09:42:34 EDT, you write:
<<
<<hm>> breathe -- I'm asking you
"buy me a skin and cut my bicycle"
"bicycle skin and buy me a cut"
"me skin cut buy bicycle and my"
--==+ so thanx Charley Plymell
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Hidden_equinox.html
Douglas
>>
Wow! That's
incredible. Is that a collage? Do you have a print of it?
Actually, I must
confess I stole that line from som old book
from France I
believe that were
case studies of insane kids. That line stuck in my mind for
years and I had
no way of knowing its documentation, so I did a Dutch
Schultz/Burroughs
borrowing. The credit goes to some poor kid in a maison de
sante many years
ago. Let us bless him or her.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:14:24 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
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From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: skimming Part 1 Cody
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> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:53:53 -0400
>
Reply-to: SSASN@AOL.COM
> From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
>
Subject: Re: skimming Part 1 Cody
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Dear David:
>
> At the end
of your "skimming part 1 Cody" message, you write:
>
> "bye
bye- off to count the number of times Henry Fonda appears in Part One (i
> didn't catch
Jimmy Stewart in there at all- damn shame!)....
>
> Since we're
on the subject of such references, did you notice the description
> of JK
running into a movie scene being filmed in front of a San Francisco
> apartment
building? By coincidence, I saw the
movie SUDDEN FEAR with Joan
> Crawford and
Jack Palance just before encountering the passage, and put 2&2
> together- he
is describing a scene from that movie being shot on location. I
> don't have
the book with me now but I will try to locate it, I think but am
> not sure
that it's in part 1, and he uses a thinly-disguised name for Joan
> Crawford
who's at the center of the anecdote, it's a great description of the
> weirdness
and tension he experiences when he bumps into this scene.
>
> Regards,
>
> Arthur S.
Nusbaum
>
>
the passage your
thinking of is the last part of VOC, JOan raWSHanKs
in the FOg.... i
know this because about a week before all of this
summer reading
buzz happened, i just finished visions of cody.... am
randomly
rereading passages though, because the rest of you are and i
thought why not?
cya~ randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:19:09 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
In a message
dated 97-07-12 17:41:03 EDT, you write:
<< Sherri,
Particularly in poetry, there a place where
over-analysis starts to
overide the impact of one's initial response
emotionally to a poem.
That's the feeling I get with where you guys
are going with this one.
I don't suggest that you not continue to look
for books of Charles'
poems, but in the meantime, check out his web
site,
http://www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
There you will find much of his writing
including a 148K file of the
poems in Robbin the Pillars for Generation X
in the Age of Apostasy,
including the one you are discussing.
DC >>
poor girl freaks
hides her face in hands
great poetry, Cleopatra
Why can't you buy
my books from Jeff Weinberg? Am I censored? He may have a
few left.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:28:03 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Visions of Cody
Seems I remember
something about City Lights turning it down. I think CL has
become a little
hotbed of nepotism
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:34:19 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody Notes and Queries
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> Sloshing my
way still through Part 2.
>
> Find myself
wondering whether the real Neal was really a good pool
> player. Doesn't seem the right type.
> Charley,
Leon, and all you historians, help me out on this cunnumdrum.
>
> J. Stauffer
> .-
James and whoever
is interested,
In the nine years
that I have been pretty close friends
with Neal, he
has not shown a
great interst in playing pool, or talked about himself
as a great pool
player. He could become very animated when watching car
races or talking
about race car drivers drivers, but not so much about
pool playing.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:24:13 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: small pome
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INTOXICATION
(for michael and
craig)
clouds burst
and rain down
on poets
wandering in
street
searching for
poetical drink.
suddenly
drenched!
clouds burst!
we laugh and turn
faces up,
mouths open
to drink in the
sky--
leap-frogging
puddles,
laughing
tumbling
shouting
splashing!
until, many
blocks later
we pour ourselves into the car,
ending
the best
poetical
drunk
by far.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:36:04 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Dean Moriarty & cars.
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friends,
i quote from ''On
The Road'' ..."Friday night beyond all doubt the
three of us - the
old threesome of Carlo, Dean, and Sal -
must go to the
midget auto races, and for that I can get
us a ride from a
guy downtown I know...",
in italian
"midget car" was translated as "microvettura",
("Sulla
strada", 1959), but im' a bit confused cos micro
is a prefix for
infinitesimally little, i dont' know
what kind of car
was involved in races in America during 1947,
& at the
moment in Italy a "microvettura" is like those little
toys (just so
tiny car) operated by remote control,
any idea 'bout
"midget car"?
cari saluti,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
btw Enrico Caruso (Naples 1873 - Naples 1921),
was the first opera singer who recorded
on disk his
own performances.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:58:47 -0500
Reply-To: "john v. omlor"
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From: "john v. omlor"
<omlor@PACKET.NET>
Subject: An
Introductory Offering.
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Hello.
I've recently
joined this list and thought by way of introduction I'd post
a piece I wrote a
few years back (since I notice that people seem ok about
posting and
reading each others' creative stuff here as well as their
critical
insights). Me? My name is John and I teach literature at the
University of
South Florida. I've taught a seminar on
the "beats" a couple
of times and try
and teach some of the stuff (especially Kerouac, Ginsberg,
Corso, and
Ferlinghetti) whenever possible in Americal Lit. courses or
modern lit.
courses or poetry surveys or even Blake seminars, etc..
Although my
"area," as they say in academe, is actually "postmodern" lit
and theory (my
diss. was on Garcia Marquez and Derrida), I do get to teach
almost all 19th
and 20th century British, American and world lit at one
time or another
and I have a particular soft spot for a lot of the works
discussed on this
list. Well, enough about work. Poetry is something
else. I write not as a job but because I have to
and I love to and I read
and do slams
because I love to hear others' stuff as well.
So, in that
spirit, here's a
work I hope is at least in some small way appropriate for
this list. It's a gamble I suppose. Thanks for reading.
--John
***************************************************
*The Old Man from
Kansas*
(for W.S.B)
As the Greyhound
wheezed through Lawrence,
I remembered the
old man
rocking on the
front porch
cats splayed out
at his feet
his cane nestled
in the arm of his chair
and his long bony
fingers polishing the smooth black barrel
of an automatic
pistol.
He lifted his
head slowly
and his eyes slid
out from underneath
the snap brim of
an ancient felt hat.
His voice, when
it came,
was a whisper of
gravel
filtered through
all the junk in the world.
"Let me tell
you about fucking boys, son.
Let me tell you
about the peircing tightness
that enters you through
your veins
and rushes
through your blood like electric current.
It hits you like
a snakebite and you know the future
and you push
against the sweet hardness
of a bony back
wet with sweat and the dirt of
innumerable
corners and alleys.
And below you,
from somewhere
underneath your stomach
but still
connected to you
you hear the gasp
that slowly
turns to a cry.
And you can feel
the back heave in tears.
And you move in a
time reserved only for the animal
or the paranoia
of pure speed.
And the young cry
beneath you seeks to fall
but you're
holding it up as you pierce it,
the ass not soft
at all, but bony, tight, hot, alive."
And the old man
almost managed a smile
his teeth still
hidden between the two white lines of chalk
that marked where
his lips should have been.
"Yes, son,
there is nothing in this world
like the feel of
a fifteen year old Tangerian boy
melting
underneath you as you drown him.
Dark, small,
willing to bear anything at all
for your moment,
your visit with death.
Pederasty ain't a
hobby son, it's a habit.
Harder to kick
than junk.
It's all of them,
boy.
The pure loss of
the opium pipe
the rush of uncut
smack
the warm
giddiness of tea
the brutal
determination of bennies
and even the
unspeakable waves of the indian's yage.
There are three
moments in this life, son.
The moment of
entrance:
the first push, breaking into the warmth
like a needle finding a long lost vein.
The moment of
explosion:
the coexistence of pure light and pure
darkness
the forever banned pleasure that can
save the world
And then there is
that final moment:
tired, sad, blindingly real.
When the sun rises and the angel is
still there
next to you, in a tortured peace, curled
like a baby
and shrivelled like an old man who has
long since died.
To know those
three moments,
To live them over
and over
To fire those
shots of absolute solitude
in a world of
madness
is to be alive.
Let me tell ya,
bout fucking boys son.
Let me tell you
about fucking boys."
And his eyes went
down to the barrel of the gun.
And he lost
himself deep in an asshole of the past.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:03:43 -0400
Reply-To: JAPHYUK@AOL.COM
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From: "Japhyuk @aol.com"
<JAPHYUK@AOL.COM>
Subject: Miss Green (a poem while smiling!)
Alone in winter.
The torn pocket
of my flimsy coat
seems to be the
entrance for wintery chills
my stomach hurts
my head hurts
my nose is
blocked
my fingers and
toes are frozen.
What i need is a
hot drink
open fire
and the comfort
of a beautiful woman
to warm me up
and scare those
winer chills away.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:02:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: Joan Rawshanks in the Fog
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The actual
watching
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:36:26 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: Joan Rawshanks in the Fog
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I apologize for
my first post with this title which sort of mailed itself
on its own before
I was ready.
This is
definitely the best part of the book, where to some extent we are
told of what Jack
is doing and why. The "watching
Joan Rawshanks in the
Fog" part of
the section, gets a little long, not unlike watching a movie
being filmed,
where the same scene is shot, over and over again. The best
stuff starts on
page 292,
"A night I
spent in Denver...I had just suddenly realized...that nothing
in the world
matters; not even success in America but just void and
emptiness awaits
the career of the soul of a man."
This part is
somewhat reminiscent of the burdened writer that no one
understands, he
doesn't make any money and none of publishers want
anything to do
with him. It leads into what Denver and
Cody mean to
him, the
mythology of it all and how this is presented in several
different visions
in this book.
Pg. 293
"...in 1947
in fact, right after I met Cody, and had those anticipatory
dreams of me and
him drinking and gabbling at bars in the construction
worker night; I
came to feel that the alleys, the fences, the streets
were the 'holy
Denver streets' I called to them, and just because of this
particular
softness, I walked along...
down in Denver,
all I did was die, I remember, that was my refrain.
I said to myself,
'What's the use of being sad because your boyhood is
over and you can
never play softball like this; you can still take
another mighty
voyage and go and see what Cody is finally doing.' Oh the
sadness of the
lights that night!... the great knife piercing me in the
darkness...the
night cloud of my dreams rising, and the general brownness
of my
salvation..."
Once again a lot
of brownness and different shades of brown in this
chapter, then pg.
295, perhaps the best illumination of the vision of ths
book, we've had
yet.
"I've had
several visions of Cody, most of the great ones in the middle
of a tea-high and
the greatest on jazz tea-high...It was as if he was a
superhuman spirit
walking, or that is racing in the flesh sent down to
earth to confound
me not only in my actions but in my thoughts: wild,
wild day I
suddenly looked from myself to this strange angel from the
other side( this
all like bop, we're getting to it indirectly and too
late but
completely from every angle except the angle we all don't know)
of Time--which he
kept talking about all the time."
And I guess we,
now, as readers are reading this from the time angle,
farther removed,
looking back with different perspectives of which he had
never
conceived. And particularly from the angle
that Arthur pointed out
earlier, that
now, he has a public that understands, to which his words
are immortal.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:33:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Visions of Cody
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I believe a
publisher called New Directions published part of it in 1960.
What parts I
don't know but these are the parts that have been identified as
being in the
public domain.
At 11:28 PM
7/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Seems I
remember something about City Lights turning it down. I think CL has
>become a
little hotbed of nepotism
>Charles
Plymell
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 03:44:15 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: mythology of an American hero
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While Cody has
been portrayed as a romantic hero type, especially in
part II, we are
now getting more to the heart of the mythology of Cody:
pg. 298(vision of
Cody in Mexico)
"...looking
down to see the steering wheel of that old '37 Ford jalopy we
bucketed down in
from Denver over many a dusty bushy mile running roughly
down the spine of
the Americas, to see if the wheel held, but actually in
complete
possession of all his wits and joys and in fact so completely
and godlike-ly
aware of every single little thing trembling like a drop
of dew in the
world, or sitting like the antique clinker of a paper
bookmatch on an
insignificant green desk somewhere in the world, aware of
the glow of his
stomach related to the strength of his father, aware of
myself and
Sherman in the backseat high and dumb, and of the kid, the
town, the day,
the year, the consequence and time passing us all by, and
yet everything
always really all right, that he suddenly glowed up like a
sun and became
all rosy as a rosy balloon and beautiful as Franklin
Delano Roosevelt,
and said, from way far back maybe ten minutes, an hour
or a year or
years ago, 'Yes!' At that moment I
decided never to forget
it (even as it
happened); Cody was so great, so good, that I couldn't
believe--he was
by far the greatest man I had ever known.
Do you know
that now I
realize and look back and see that in the beginning he made
everybody smoke
tea so they'd look at him in their original version never
to be repeated
kicks?...the bastard sensed it. Yet he's
an angel. I'm
his brother,
that's all.
But enough of my greatest
enemy--because while I saw him as an
angel, a god,
etcetera, I also saw him as a devil, an old witch, even an
old bitch from
the start and always did think and still do that he can
read my thoughts
and interrupt them on purpose so I'll look on the world
like he
does. Jealous, all over. If's anything he can't stand, Val
Hayes first off
said in 1946, is people fucking when he's not involved,
that is, not only
in the same room but the same floor or house or world.
And I discovered he can't stand people talking
or putting forth a
thought or even
thinking in the same world. He feels
that he's
indispensible to
his wife, children, his former wives, me, and the--
that would be
Heaven, or Time, or Whatever. He's
afraid of death, very
cautious, cagey,
careful, suspicious, wary, half near a thing--out of the
corner of his eye
he talks about danger and death all the time..."
The Cody we are
getting to know is now becoming more complex.
He also
seems to be
changing, metamorphosing/transforming into something greater
than the friend,
hero, maybe a kind of anti-hero. The one
thing that
doesn't change,
however, is the sense that in his presence, "everything
is all
right," we are repeated thrown this line over and over again.
The mythology
then opens up to Cody and himself as "the noble sons of
great Homeric
warriors" (pg. 303) and then to Cody and the three stooges
vision, where he
writes, (pg. 306)
"I knew that
long ago when the mist was raw Cody saw the Three Stooges,
maybe he just
stood outside a pawnshop, or a hardware store, or in that
perennial
poolhall door but maybe more likely on the pavings of the city
under tragic
rainy telephone poles, and thought of the Three Stooges,
suddenly
realizing--that life is strange and the Three Stooges
exist--that in
10,000 years--that...all the goofs he felt in him were
justified in the
outside world..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:14:05 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: untangled
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Yuri
got up on the morning
Yuri has asked me if i existed
& on the moon had snowed
i have answered all exist
Yuri passed hours
listened to music on the radio
Yuri The Parrot
now
looks at with eyes of lizard
(without tail)
in
the ruined house
(tacit order of demolition
next morning)
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:08:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
Reply to message
from kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU of Thu, 10 Jul
>
>On Thu, 10
Jul 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>>
>There have been a couple of references so far to something about Bull and
>> >June
and a murder. Can't find the other
references at the moment
>> >but
here again on page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between
>> >June
and August everything happened, the murder took place." Is this
>> >ever
explicated?
>>
_____________
>> murder
of demented stalker of lucien carr by same. forget his name. andy
>> wharhol
was right/
>David
Krammerer <sp?> or something like that.
The reason Kerouac and
>Ginsberg, I
think, went to jail (asylum for Ginsy) and Kerouac got out by
>marrying. Chronicled, I'm told, in the unpublished
(soon to be published
>I thinks I
heard somewhere) _And_The_Hippos_Were_Boilded_in_Their_Tanks_.
It weas the
reason kerouac went to jail; Ginsberg's stay in teh asulym had
to do with Huncke
& a few others & stolen property stashed in Allen's
apartment. If I remeber correctly, Edie Parker's family
paid Kerouac's
bail after he
married Edie.
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:09:42 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Early pub. of VofC
"Excerpts
from V of C" was published in a limited edition of 750 copies
by New
Nirections. For more detailed
information consult Charter's
bibliography
entry A 9 (Revised ed.). When I looked
for a copy in 1971
or 1972 it was
missing from Harvard, Columbia, and the University of
Pennsylvania.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:07:13 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Early pub. of VofC
Comments: To:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
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At 08:09 PM
7/13/97 EDT, you wrote:
>"Excerpts
from V of C" was published in a limited edition of 750 copies
>by New
Nirections. For more detailed
information consult Charter's
>bibliography
entry A 9 (Revised ed.). When I looked
for a copy in 1971
>or 1972 it
was missing from Harvard, Columbia, and the University of
>Pennsylvania.
>
>
Unfortunately
this seems to be par for the course.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:53:11 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Hart Crane
(1899-1932)=20
From THE BRIDGE -- Proem: To
Brooklyn Bridge=20
=20
How many dawns, chill from his
rippling rest
The seagull's wings shall dip
and pivot him,
Shedding white rings of tumult,
building high
Over the chained bay waters
Liberty--
Then, with inviolate curve,
forsake our eyes
As apparitional as sails that
cross
Some page of figures to be
filed away;
--Till elevators drop us from our
day ...
I think of cinemas, panoramic
sleights
With multitudes bent toward
some flashing scene
Never disclosed, but hastened
to again,
Foretold to other eyes on the
same screen;
And Thee, across the harbor,
silver-paced
As though the sun took step of
thee, yet left
Some motion ever unspent in thy
stride, --
Implicitly thy freedom staying
thee!
Out of some subway scuttle,
cell or loft
A bedlamite speeds to thy
parapets,
Tilting there momently, shrill
shirt ballooning,
A jest falls from the
speechless caravan.
Down Wall, from girder into
street noon leaks,
A rip-tooth of the sky's
acetylene;
All afternoon the cloud-flown
derricks turn ...
Thy cables, breathe the North
Atlantic still.
And obscure as that heaven of the
Jews,
Thy guerdon ... Accolade thou
dost bestow
Of anonymity time cannot raise:
Vibrant reprieve and pardon
thou dost show.
O harp and altar, of the fury
fused,
(How could mere toil align thy
choiring strings!)
Terrific threshold of the
prophet's pledge,
Prayer of pariah, and the
lover's cry,--
Again the traffic lights that
skim thy swift
Unfractioned idiom, immaculate
sigh of stars,
Beading thy path--condense
eternity:
And we have seen night lifted
in thine arms.
Under thy shadow by the piers I
waited;
Only in darkness is thy shadow
clear.
The City's fiery parcels all
undone,
Already snow submerges an iron
year...
O Sleepless as the river under
thee,
Vaulting the sea, the prairies'
dreaming sod,
Unto us lowliest sometime
sweep, descend
And of the curveship lend a
myth to God.
=20
----------------
(NOTE: 1. Wall: Wall Street in Manhattan.)
=20
***
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~d-gao/crane1.html
***
A Hart Crane web
page:
http://unr.edu/homepage/brad/hart/crane.html
***
***
And the story
goes on, with the calling to arms of the boy, whose voice
aroused the
recruits' enthusiasm and with his successes in the operas of
the whole world
beginning in Metropolitan opera of N.Y. thanks to
patronage of the
banker coming from Nola (Italy) Mr. Pasquale Simonelli.=20
But beyond the splendid artistic aspects of
his career, the tenor
lived his
intimate drama. In fact, he had first to overcome the american
mafia's threats,
and then was abandoned by the woman that
he loved, who
eloped with his
chauffeur. Moreover, while the audience acclaimed
him and the
impresarios signed blank contracts with him, he noticed the
first signs of an
illness that he would try to hide at any cost, often
covering his
mouth with a handkerchief, pretending to wipe the
perspiration, and
taking it off blood-soaked.=20
The tenor spent
the last period of his life in Sorrento, and Naples.=20
***
http://circle.intecs.it/net/enrico.caruso/it_home.htm
***
Renaldo:
It seems to me
the Italian version of this Caruso site contains more
information than
the | Fran=E7ais | Deutsch | Espa=F1ol | Japanese | PHOT=
OS
| English |
versions. Could you determine if that is true?
Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:00:14 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: fwd>>chronicles of disorder #3
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[props to C.
Carter for the original post]
Beat-l,
culled this from
the patti smith list.
> announcing
release of CHRONICLES of DISORDER #3: and the beat generation
>
> $2.95
> ISBN
#0-934953-50-3
> please
direct all communications w/SASE to:
> Thomas
Christian, CHRONICLES OF DISORDER
> PO Box 721,
Schenectady, NY 12301
>
> Contents:
>
> CALLING THE
TOADS by Ron Whitehead
> HERBERT
HUNCKE INTERVIEW by G.J.Bassett, John Carruthers, D.K.Burke
> CUT-UP FOR
BURROUGHS by Giovanni Malito
> STEPPING
OUTTA JACK KEROUAC ALLEY by Jonathan Hayes
> DAIMONSWEY
by Thomas Christian
> DEAR PATTI
by Thurston Moore
> ELEGY by Charlie
Rossiter
> POSTCARD by
Bryan Kieser
> LETTER FOUND
IN DHARMA BUMS by t. Kilgore Splake
> CHICKEN
LITTLE by Mick Cusimano
> LEAVING
LOUISIANA by Michael Eck
> WILLIAM S.
BURROUGHS INTERVIEW by Ron Whitehead
> READING
BURROUGHS by Al Zostautas
> ALLEN
GINSBERG PHOTO by Dan Wilcox
> ST. NEAL OF
LARIMER by Kym Fleming
> LETTER TO
TRISH by Raoul V. Stober
> JACK KEROUAC
AND THE FORTY-NINER DRIVE-IN by Joseph Verrilli
> COLLAGE by
Anne Coletta
> HUNKY by
Arthur Winfield Knight
> POEM OF A
DIFFERENT BEAT by Debora Bump
> BEAT by
Stephen Clair Ferguson
> IN REVUE
& 2 GREAT BOOKS
> FLYING
SAUCERS ROCK & ROLL by Patti Smith
> PATTI SMITH
PHOTO by Richard Rymanowski
> CONTRIBUTORS
> CHRONICLES
OF DISORDER: submission guidelines, subscription info
> LEFT BANK
HOLIDAY and PHOTO by T. Kilgore Splake
> additional
photos/art acknowledgements:
> ANNE WALDMAN
PHOTOS by Thomas Christian
> HUNCKE
PHOTOS by Louis Cartwright courtesy of G.J. Bassett
> HUNCKE
WOODCUT by John Carruthers
> PATTI FLYERS
courtesy of P.H.T.P. (Mike McHugh)
> FRONT COVER
by Tim Nerney @ HI-FI DESIGN
>
> check it out
>
> P.S.
> CHRONICLES
OF DISORDER
> is a 48-page
quarterly-issued journal/zine that focuses on a different
> topic in
each issue. All material within are c and all rights revert back
> to authors.
Previous individual issues are available at select retail
> locations
throughout North America or by writing to: WATER ROW BOOKS (PO
> Box 438,
Sudbury, MA. 01772), or SEE HEAR (59 e. 7th St., NY NY 10003).
> CHRONICLES
OF DISORDER
> #1: PATTI
SMITH
> #2: JACK
KEROUAC
> #3: BEAT
GENERATION
> #4: ROLLING
STONES
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:46:56 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Lowell Hotel
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The Sheraton
Hotel in Lowell has agreed to offer special rates to
those attending
the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival
and Beat
Literature Conference. To take advantage of this offer call
the hotel at
508-452-1200 and tell reservations you are attending the
Festival. This is
a local promotion DO NOT CALL the Sheraton Worldwide
800 number, they
cannot help you.
I'm told this is
all set, if you have any trouble, let me know.
Mark Hemenway
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:58:10 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody: What Murder?
Comments: To:
"LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU" <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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June was killed
accidentally by WSB as he tried to shoot an apple?
water glass? (the
details escape me) from her head, a la William Tell.
Seems like I
remember this passage in VOC as referring to that
incident, but I
could be wrong. Incidentally, a version of this
incident is kind
of a motif in the movie version of <<Naked Lunch>>.
Mark Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:21:53 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of
Cody
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Good morning,
I have checked
out Visions of Cody and it is due back at the library
soon. I have carried it with me and felt it many
many times. It has
been in my
shoulder bag every day as i walk to the filling station and
read the morning
paper to get a sensation of locale. I
have read a few
words here and
there, typed a few words, and read many of the posts by
folks who are
better readers than i. today i am
getting a book in the
mail from Diane
Carter that i will definitely carry with me for at least
a month or two.
This book is named Ulysses. It is buy a
man named
James. Before i trade in Jack for James i felt i
would spill my guts on
the impressions
this tired Kansan has of the book from carrying it with
me for a bit.
Once upon a time
there was a man named Jack. Jack had a
peculiar
genetic
makeup. He was born a feeler. Jack could feel more listening
to a Bobby
Thompson home run on the radio than most people feel in an
entire lifetime.
Jack noticed early
on that other folks didn't feel the way he did.
This
caused him to
feel alien sometimes. Jack was never
able to step into
the picture of
life because he felt it so more intensely than the others
in the
picture. So Jack watched and imagined
words for what was
happening. This separated Jack even more from the other
people and from
the picture of
life. He tried harder to find words for
what he saw
because what he
saw was the truth and his belief. This
pulled him
farther from the
picture because most of the people in the picture
didn't feel,
observe or try to describe the picture.
And so as time
went along a
cycle develops that Jack keeps feeling more and more deeply
and wants to
connect from the separation from the non-feelers by
describing his
feelings in words but this just adds to the separation
and he feels this
separation more deeply than any it seems.
One day he meets
a cat named Cody. Jack is not a
cat. Jack is a feeler
who watches
Cat. Cody shows him how to be in the
picture and talk about
it at the same
time. Jack finds the key to life.
As time goes on
Jack and Cody are not always able to be in the same
picture. Sometimes Jack slips back to the old ways of
feeling outside
the picture
instead of feeling with the picture as Cody has taught him
by showing him
through Cody's way of living so completely alive. When
this happens Jack
thinks of Cody. Remembers him
totally. And the
memory of Cody
saves Jack's life again.
Jack is grateful
to Cody. Many people are grateful but
being a feeler
Jack is grateful
to depths no one appreciates. Sometimes
his actions
betray his
gratitude and this makes Jack feel even more indebted to Cody
because the
memories pull him back into the picture after such
misdeeds.
Jack sits down
and types to the world the story of a person who -- to
Jack -- is more
than a person, who is larger than life, who is Jack's
lifeline into the
portrait of the living world. He types
and types and
types. Then he has a book. It is called Visions of Cody. Jack dies.
Visions of Cody
is published and so it is a real book.
Everyone now can
see how Cody
showed Jack to enter the picture of life and feel and live
at the same time.
By carrying this
tattered library book around for a few weeks, it seems
that Cody is
truly a mythic figure. He is more than a
legend. He is a
healer and a
saviour for those who are caught away from the world and
feel it so
intensely that they can't live it. That
is Cody's gift to
Jack. The book is Jack's gift to Cody. They both are a gift to us all.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:31:56 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
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From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Lowell Hotel for Festival
Comments: To:
bfoye@aol.com, jsaint@tiac.net, tongues@tiac.net,
holladay@woods.uml.edu,
fisher@program.com,
milton1@cliffy.polaraoid.com,
wakonda@aol.tiac.net,
schorr@world.std.com,
whalec@boat.bt.co.uk,
danbarth@happy.yokayo.uusd.k12.ca.us,
cusimano@fas.harvard.edu,
valcomb@aol.com, goslow@phx.com,
wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu,
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jhanson@penguin.com, hpark2@aol.com,
karmacoupe@aol.com,
mhemenway@s1.drc.com, kalron@ix.netcom.com,
BeatRyder@aol.com, dave@scryber.com,
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mnews@world.std.com, norbull@aol.com,
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wcvb@aol.com,
74201.2255@compuserve.com,
wmbr-press@media.mit.edu, klmcomm@aol.com,
general@the-tec.mit.edu,
wmbr-press@media.mit.edu, wmfo@tufts.edu,
allie.cat@genie.com, DawnDr@aol.com,
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu,
skolowra@rykodisc.mhub.com,
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madhatter20@juno.com
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From: Hemenway . Mark
Sent: Monday, July 14, 1997 8:47 AM
Subject: Lowell Hotel
Importance: High
The Sheraton
Hotel in Lowell has agreed to offer special rates to
those attending
the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival
and Beat
Literature Conference. To take advantage of this offer call
the hotel at
508-452-1200 and tell reservations you are attending the
Festival. This is
a local promotion DO NOT CALL the Sheraton Worldwide
800 number, they
cannot help you.
I'm told this is
all set, if you have any trouble, let me know.
Mark Hemenway MHemenway@drc.com
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:36:42 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Comments: To:
bfoye@aol.com, jsaint@tiac.net, tongues@tiac.net,
holladay@woods.uml.edu,
fisher@program.com,
milton1@cliffy.polaraoid.com,
wakonda@aol.tiac.net,
schorr@world.std.com,
whalec@boat.bt.co.uk,
danbarth@happy.yokayo.uusd.k12.ca.us,
cusimano@fas.harvard.edu,
valcomb@aol.com, goslow@phx.com,
wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu,
brooklyn@netcom.com,
jhanson@penguin.com, hpark2@aol.com,
karmacoupe@aol.com,
mhemenway@s1.drc.com, kalron@ix.netcom.com,
BeatRyder@aol.com, dave@scryber.com,
radiofreeal@delphi.com,
news@globe.com,
100120.361@compuserve.com, iht@eurokom.ie,
nandq@guardian.co.uk,
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IMAGES of KEROUAC
'97 - An Open Photography Exhibtion Call For
Photo Entries
GUIDELINES
The Whistler House
Museum of Art and Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!,
Inc. invite
photographers of all ages, experience and media to
participate in an
open exhibition of photographic images inspired
by Jack Kerouac
or the Beats. Guidelines follow:
1. The exhibition
is open to all artists in photographic media
(traditional and
non-traditional). Submissions should be of or
inspired by Jack
Kerouac, Beat Personalities or Literature, or
Lowell. We will
try to display all submissions, however, The
Whistler house
Museum of Art and Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.
reserve the right
to refuse any submission.
2. Deadline: All
work must be delivered to the Whistler House
Museum of art no
later than September 12, 1997.
3. An entry fee
of $7.00 per work must accompany all submissions.
Checks should be
made out to the Whistler House Museum of Art.
4. The Exhibition
will open at a reception on 2 October 1997 in
conjunction with
the opening of the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!
Festival. The exhibition will run until 31 October 1997.
5. Photographs
must be suitable for installation and must not
exceed 48"
in any dimension, including frame. All framing must
include screw
eyes and or snap hangars. Glass and clip framing
will not be
accepted. Each artists may submit up to three (3)
works.
6. Photographs
must be hand delivered or shipped prepaid. All work
must be
prepackaged in reusable material for return at the end of
the exhibition.
Work arriving without sufficient return postage
will be returned
collect at the end of the exhibition.
7. Unless
indicated NFS by the artist, all work
will be
considered for
sale at a 35% commission to the Whistler House
Museum.
8. Mail
submissions to: Whistler House Museum
of Art, 243
Worthen Street,
Lowell, MA 01852
9. Phone
508-452-7641 for additional information on the photo
exhibition.
10. Provide the
following information for all submissions:
a. Artist name address and phone
number.
b. Title of the submission
c. Size of the submission
d. Sale price
11. For
information of the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!
Festival write to
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., PO Box 1111,
Lowell, MA 01853
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:35:46 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Anne Waldman
Comments: To:
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cusimano@fas.harvard.edu,
valcomb@aol.com, goslow@phx.com,
wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu,
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jhanson@penguin.com, hpark2@aol.com,
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100120.361@compuserve.com, iht@eurokom.ie,
nandq@guardian.co.uk,
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Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853
ANNE WALDMAN TO
LEAD ALLEN GINSBERG TRIBUTE AT LOWELL
CELEBRATES
KEROUAC! FESTIVAL
FOR IMMEDIATE
RELEASE PRESS CONTACT:
JULY 1, 1997
Mark
Hemenway:
Day:
508-475-9090
ext 1239
Evening:
508-458-1721
PUBLIC
INQUIRIES:
1-800-443-3332
508-458-1721
(Lowell, MA) Ann Waldman, internationally acclaimed
poet,
editor and educator
will be lead a tribute to Allen Ginsberg at
the 10th Annual
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival, 2-
5 October
in Lowell, MA. Ms
Waldman has authored over 30 books of poetry and
has performed in
readings around the world. She directed the
Poetry Project at
St Mark's Church in the Bowery for over a decade
and is currently the Director of the Jack Kerouac
School of
Disembodied
Poetics which she co-founded with Allen Ginsberg.
The theme of the
10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival
is Jack Kerouac
Celebrates Lowell. We will celebrate and
explore
the real and
mythic Lowell, Massachusetts that Kerouac brought to
life in his
writing. Kerouac friend, and poet Allen
Ginsberg died
this past year
and we mourn his loss. This year's festival will
honor the memory
and pay tribute to the art of this great American
writer.
Before he died at
age 46, Jack Kerouac published 24 books
chronicling the
lives and adventures of the post war generation in
America. The raw
energy and beauty of his prose established a new
standard in
American literature. The ideas and way of life that he
wrote about would
set the stage for the "rucksack revolution" of
the sixties. Jack
Kerouac along with Allen Ginsberg, William S.
Burroughs, Neal
Cassady and others, founded the Beat movement in
American
literature and culture, a movement that challenged the
rigid social
structure of postwar America and eventually led to
sweeping social
change.
Jack Kerouac was
born, raised and remained a native of Lowell
throughout his
life. His novels are autobiographical. 5
of his
novels take place
in Lowell, and the city is mentioned in
virtually every
one of his books. His descriptions of Lowell are
remarkable for
their beauty, power and timelessness. Through them,
millions of
readers have come to know Lowell as a universal
hometown.
Each year, in
Kerouac's favorite month of October, enthusiasts
gather from
around the world to celebrate his art and to
commemorate his
life.
Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc. is a non-profit corporation
dedicated to the
celebration, enjoyment and study of Jack Kerouac
and his writings.
Whenever possible, events are free, however,
donations are
gratefully accepted for continued support of the
annual Lowell
Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.. To make a donation,
or to find out
more about Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., write:
P.O. Box 1111,
Lowell, MA 01853.
A summary of
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Events follows:
Feature
Performance. Legendary performers and poets like Patti
Smith, Allen
Ginsberg, Ed Sanders, Michael McClure, Ray Manzarek,
David Amram.
Gregory Corso and Herbert Huncke have appeared during
the festival.
This year's tribute to Allen Ginsberg and Herbert
Huncke will
feature Ann Waldman.
Memorial Mass for
Jack Kerouac- A memorial mass for Jack and
Stella Kerouac
will be held at the St. Louis Roman Catholic
Church, the
parish in which he spent his earliest years.
Beat Literature
Conference- The University of Massachusetts-Lowell
will present an
academic conference on Jack Kerouac and the Beat
writers on
Friday, October 3rd at the University's South Campus.
Leading scholars
of beat culture and literature will present
papers and ideas
in symposia and panels throughout the day.
Ann
Douglas will
deliver the Keynote Presentation. For information
contact Professor
Hilary Holladay, English Department,
UMASS-Lowell,
Lowell, MA 01854.
The Jack Kerouac
Literary Prize. Emerging and established writers
are invited to
submit works of fiction, non-fiction or poetry for
the Jack Kerouac
Literary Prize. The winner will receive a $500
honorarium and an
invitation to present the winning manuscript at
the October
Festival. The Prize is sponsored by Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc,
The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, and
Middlesex
Community College. For guidelines, send a SASE to The
Jack Kerouac
Literary Prize, P.O. Box 8788, Lowell, MA 01853.
Photo
Exhibitions. The festival will feature an exhibition of
photographic
works and a gallery talk by photographer
Gordon
Ball, editor of
Allen Ginsberg's journals.
Open Photography
Exhibition . Photographers of all ages,
experience and
media are invited to participate in an open
exhibition of
photographic images inspired by Jack Kerouac or the
Beats. The
exhibition is sponsored by the Whistler House Museum of
Art. For guidelines, send a SASE to Beat Exhibition, 243 Worthen
St, Lowell,
MA 01852. New Books. We will celebrate the
publication of
Some of the Dharma, and the 40th Anniversary
Edition of On the
Road, by Viking Penguin, the Collected
Works of
Herbert
Huncke, and a new history of Kerouac's
roots in Nashua
New Hampshire
during the festival.
Small Press Book
Fair- The small press book fair is an opportunity
to sample
regional small press publications, and pick-up Kerouac
books- new and
rare.
Poetry at The
Rainbow Cafe- Authors read their works in the
Kerouacian
ambience of a neighborhood tavern in "Little Canada."
Everyone is
welcome to read their poetry or prose, but time is
limited, please
reserve a spot ahead of time.
The Kerouac
Commemorative- The Jack Kerouac Commemorative is
located in
downtown Lowell at the intersection of Bridge and
French Streets,
near the former site of his father's print shop.
Selected Kerouac
passages, etched in eight red granite pillars,
stand as a living
monument to his art. The symmetrical
cross and
diamond pattern
of The Commemorative is a meditation on
the
complex Buddhist
and Roman Catholic foundations of much of Jack's
writing.
Walking Tours-
Walking tours of Kerouac sites in Lowell and
Nashua, NH are
conducted throughout the weekend. The tours change
each year, but
almost always include: Our Lady of Lourdes Grotto,
the Watermelon
Man Bridge, the Merrimack River, and many of the
neighborhood
sites Jack wrote about.
Bus Tours- Bus
tours of Lowell and Nashua, NH provide a more
leisurely tour of
sites in these two Kerouac cities. Jack
Kerouac's mother
and father met and the family, including Gerard
are buried in
Nashua.
Open Microphone
at the Coffee Mill- Sunday afternoons are reserved
for an open
microphone reading and performance at the Coffee Mill
in downtown
Lowell. Everyone is welcome to read their work. Sip
expresso while
waiting your turn at the microphone. .
Many other
activities are available during the weekend:
o Exhibits of first edition beat
publications and
memorabilia.
o Jack Kerouac's rucksack and other
personal items are on
display at the
Working People Exhibit, Lowell National Historical
Park.
o Edson Cemetery. Jack Kerouac is buried
in the Edson
Cemetery just
south of Downtown Lowell. The cemetery is open from
sun-up to
sun-down every day.
o Music and conversation- There will be
many opportunities
throughout the weekend
to share your festival experience and
enthusiasm for
Jack Kerouac while enjoying a beer at local taverns
and nightspots.
For additional
information call the Merrimack Valley Convention
and Visitor's
Bureau at 1-800-443-3332, or Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Inc
508-458-1721.
***END***
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:25:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <33CA3601.3019@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dave: wonderfully
written, thoughtful, and by no means illiterate.
a fellow 'feeler'
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:40:06 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Very, very cool
letter...
Some people
understand jack only on a soul-to-soul, heart-to-heart level.
Others can't
really reconcile what they "feel" for him unless they can put
scholarly
structure to these mystical connections.
What has really
hit home for me in 1997 is the incredibly colorful, complex
tapestry of jack.
The drunk, the saint, the madman, the scholar, the leader,
the follower. One
moment he's espousing spontaneity as if speaking to
disciples about
the path to enlightenment. The next moment he's advancing an
almost turgid
scholarly theory differentiating between talent and
originality, and
listing off authors who possess these qualities.
He has that
"nervous intelligence" that goes from earthly to ethereal. Kids
who are 13 or 14,
post-graduate types, drinkers and thinkers, so-called
"intellectuals,"
all read jack, love jack, relate to jack, believe they
understand jack.
I don't question them. I just sit in the corner and read and
make notes. My
head's too full of images and my soul's too hungry for freedom
to study a
dialectic or seek a methodology. Give me illiteracy or give me
dreck... who said
that?
Hey, I ain't
stupid. I just read jack with my heart and soul, not with my
book-learnin. Who
the hell is this Joyce dude anyway, and why does he have a
chick's name?
hee hee hee hee
heeeee
ddr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:54:04 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: CODY: what murder?
Comments: To:
Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970712003115_137557659@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Arthur--
> This is how
it really was, how history is really made before it
> is
"history" in the discord and immediacy of the moment. How do I put it-
> there is
both a demystification of a well-established and documented legend,
> and a
message that our own relatively anonymous
cosmic huddles have the same
> legendary
qualities that we project by popular consensus onto this now-famous
> group. There's more to this I can't quite get at,
it's late and enough for
> now.
As usual you're
right on with this -- I think a large part of why and how
the Beats became
what they are is due to this phenomenon of "secret
histories."
I hope you're able to get at -- and post to the list -- more
of this at a
later time.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:06:55 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
> dave:
wonderfully written, thoughtful, and by no means illiterate.
> a fellow
'feeler'
> mc
I must say that
my comments are illiterate. it is not an
ugly word - it
is an honest
word. i have no background in what is
called "literature"
in any form. my background is in theories of argumentation
and
symbolism. my brain is sort of working backwards in this
process moving
from the
scholarly and non-scholarly posts which i understand fairly
well and glancing
at parts of the book that correlate with the posts
throwing that
into the soup of my brain and letting it simmer and then
finally just
letting something pop out.
these illiterate
impressions would not have been possible without the
scholarly posts
or without the public library i should add.
to me one
of the most
important things in digesting a book is to carry it with me
and touch it a
lot and just let it soak inside. This in
combination
with y'alls words
and a few of Jack's words forms the basis for a
naive but perhaps
insightful impressionistic synthesis of what the
experience meant
to me.
The synthesis
that i found this morning would not have been possible
without the
careful and detail dissection of each tidbit by those
patient enough to
actually sit down and read a story from start to
finish
thoughtfully.
Enjoying the way
you all unscrew my brain - by the way.
your friendly
Scarecrow returning from Oz,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:11:28 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Kerouac Week in Lowell
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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At 10:35 AM
7/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>A summary of
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Events follows:
>
>
>Memorial Mass
for Jack Kerouac- A memorial mass for Jack and
>Stella
Kerouac will be held at the St. Louis Roman Catholic
>Church, the
parish in which he spent his earliest years.
July 14, 1997,
Bastille Day
Dear Mark, Phil,
Attila, and other Organizers:
Don't you think it would be proper to
have Jan's soul remembered in
this Mass as
well, since her remains were just buried in Nashua?
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:30:16 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
nothing
illiterate here at all... you have
cloven the arrow already at the
center of the
bull's-eye. can anything more be said?
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
RACE ---
Sent: Monday, July 14, 1997 7:21 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of
Cody
Good morning,
I have checked out
Visions of Cody and it is due back at the library
soon. I have carried it with me and felt it many
many times. It has
been in my
shoulder bag every day as i walk to the filling station and
read the morning
paper to get a sensation of locale. I
have read a few
words here and
there, typed a few words, and read many of the posts by
folks who are
better readers than i. today i am
getting a book in the
mail from Diane
Carter that i will definitely carry with me for at least
a month or two.
This book is named Ulysses. It is buy a
man named
James. Before i trade in Jack for James i felt i
would spill my guts on
the impressions
this tired Kansan has of the book from carrying it with
me for a bit.
Once upon a time
there was a man named Jack. Jack had a
peculiar
genetic
makeup. He was born a feeler. Jack could feel more listening
to a Bobby
Thompson home run on the radio than most people feel in an
entire lifetime.
Jack noticed
early on that other folks didn't feel the way he did. This
caused him to
feel alien sometimes. Jack was never
able to step into
the picture of
life because he felt it so more intensely than the others
in the
picture. So Jack watched and imagined
words for what was
happening. This separated Jack even more from the other
people and from
the picture of
life. He tried harder to find words for
what he saw
because what he
saw was the truth and his belief. This
pulled him
farther from the
picture because most of the people in the picture
didn't feel,
observe or try to describe the picture.
And so as time
went along a
cycle develops that Jack keeps feeling more and more deeply
and wants to
connect from the separation from the non-feelers by
describing his
feelings in words but this just adds to the separation
and he feels this
separation more deeply than any it seems.
One day he meets
a cat named Cody. Jack is not a
cat. Jack is a feeler
who watches
Cat. Cody shows him how to be in the
picture and talk about
it at the same
time. Jack finds the key to life.
As time goes on
Jack and Cody are not always able to be in the same
picture. Sometimes Jack slips back to the old ways of
feeling outside
the picture
instead of feeling with the picture as Cody has taught him
by showing him
through Cody's way of living so completely alive. When
this happens Jack
thinks of Cody. Remembers him
totally. And the
memory of Cody
saves Jack's life again.
Jack is grateful
to Cody. Many people are grateful but
being a feeler
Jack is grateful
to depths no one appreciates. Sometimes
his actions
betray his
gratitude and this makes Jack feel even more indebted to Cody
because the
memories pull him back into the picture after such
misdeeds.
Jack sits down
and types to the world the story of a person who -- to
Jack -- is more
than a person, who is larger than life, who is Jack's
lifeline into the
portrait of the living world. He types
and types and
types. Then he has a book. It is called Visions of Cody. Jack dies.
Visions of Cody
is published and so it is a real book.
Everyone now can
see how Cody
showed Jack to enter the picture of life and feel and live
at the same time.
By carrying this
tattered library book around for a few weeks, it seems
that Cody is
truly a mythic figure. He is more than a
legend. He is a
healer and a
saviour for those who are caught away from the world and
feel it so
intensely that they can't live it. That
is Cody's gift to
Jack. The book is Jack's gift to Cody. They both are a gift to us all.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:31:54 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: "to have seen a specter isn't
everything..."
Comments: cc:
Victoria Paul <vpaul@gwdi.com>
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went book
shopping in LA this weekend.
Aldine Books
4663 Hollywood
Boulevard
(1/2 block east
of Vermont Ave.)
Los Angeles, CA
90027
(213) 666-2690
Picked up
"first third" by Neal Cassidy for $8 (was marked at $10).
Walked in and
asked for Kerouac and the Beats. Don't
know if they have
much of a
selection, but the folx behind the counter very helpful.
Asked me to call
or drop by if I needed to track down something else.
was shopping next
door at Wacko! this great tidbit freak
store. lots
of art, sex,
tattoo, insence, nick-nac stuff. So if
you're up in Los
Angeles, make
sure and stop buy. good neighborhood for
sex clubs, used
book, record
& clothing stores. and automotive
supply stores.
and I don't have
time to read these days. don't know why
I'm buying all
these books. Here's a snippet of what I'm missing:
To have seen a
specter isn't everything
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
by Neal Cassidy
To have seen a specter isn't
everything, and there are deathmasks
piled, one atop
the other, clear to heaven. Commoner still are the wan
visages of those
returning from the shadow of the valley.
This means
little to those
who have not lifted the veil.
=-=-=-=
I think he's
talking about Los Angels. <<Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:44:49 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: "buy me a bicycle and cut my
skin"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Charles writes:
>> Wow!
That's incredible. Is that a collage? Do you have a print of it?
yep, a
collage. plexi and bunch of things lit
upon by scanner. No
prints currently
available. Seen from this side of
photoshop (a graphic
manipulation
program). Personally, I like the
circles, the quality of
light, and the
different perspectives/interpretations possible. Glad
you like it <<that was the point--
><<Actually,
I must confess I stole that line from som old book from France I
>believe that
were case studies of insane kids. That line stuck in my mind for
>years and I
had no way of knowing its documentation, so I did a Dutch
>Schultz/Burroughs
borrowing. The credit goes to some poor kid in a maison de
sante many years
ago. Let us bless him or her.>>
<<blessings>>
>
>> Charles
Plymell
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:01:08 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Miget Auto Races
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Rinaldo,
Miget cars are
much like Go-Carts. They are slightly
larger and have
sturdy steel-tube
frame and a fiberglass body. The engines
are somewhat
powerfull for
these little cars (I'd the cars are about the size of a
twin bed?). They are raced on fairly small, circular dirt
tracks. They
are still raced
today. I'll try to find a bit more
information on the
American NASCAR
site for you if you'd like.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:06:29 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: "to have seen a specter isn't
everything..."
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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> To have seen
a specter isn't everything
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> by Neal
Cassidy
>
> To have seen a specter isn't everything, and
there are deathmasks
> piled, one
atop the other, clear to heaven. Commoner still are the wan
> visages of
those returning from the shadow of the valley.
This means
> little to
those who have not lifted the veil.
>
> =-=-=-=
> I think he's
talking about Los Angels.
<<Douglas
>
i think he's
talking about walking on water across the river styx after
laughing at the
hounds from hell.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:55:13 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody: not murder, dark accident
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Patricia Elliott
wrote:
>
> Hemenway .
Mark wrote:
> >
> > June
was killed accidentally by WSB as he tried to shoot an apple?
> > water
glass? (the details escape me) from her head, a la William Tell.
> > Seems
like I remember this passage in VOC as referring to that
> >
incident, but I could be wrong. Incidentally, a version of this
> >
incident is kind of a motif in the movie version of <<Naked
Lunch>>.
> >
> > Mark
Hemenway
>
> it was a drink. wsb.s preface to Queer is an extraordinary
account of
> this. It is
some of the strongest and best prose
that i have ever read
> . worth
reading, the preface is less than 40 pages long.
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:13:24 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: race is kool
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you perceptions
and communications are elegant
thank you for
being on the list
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:20:45 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: 2 roads
Content-Type:
text
David's "Two
roads diverged" version of Frost's poem reminds me
of the legend of
the Burinam ass: the ass was staked on a chain
leash midway
between two stacks of hay which were exactly the same
size and quality;
the ass starved to death because there was nothing
to lead it to
choose one of the equidistant stacks of hay rather
than the other.
The legend was
popular during the 18th century (which, I swear, was
before my time)
as a critique of the limits of rationality.
A beat but not
beaten ass.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
7/14/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:36:23 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: City Lights
Comments: To:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997071320135771@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Actually, City
Lights repeatedly turned down Kerouac's work and other beat
works.
Ferlinghetti
refused to
publish Kerouac's "Mexico City Blues", even when Ginsberg
offered to pay
for the printing costs himself out of his royalties from
"Howl" I think CL also turned down Gregory Corso's
"Bomb" and a lot of
other great beat
works. CL has gotten a lot of mileage
out of being
Allen Ginsberg's
publisher but when it comes down to it, they were a
business like any
other and only wanted to print what would sell.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:25:05 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: City Lights
I find this very
interesting, as now City Lights publishes all or almost of
Kerouac's works
now, as well as Corso's and other Beats'; and has a Beat
section all its
own on the second floor along with what appears to be
primarily Beat
poetry.
i had always
thought that Ferlinghetti had run City Lights just because of the
lack of
publishers who would touch Beat works...
ah well, legends so often
eclipse harsh
reality, particularly when it comes to fame & fortune.
thanks for the
insight.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Richard Wallner
Sent: Monday, July 14, 1997 1:36 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: City Lights
Actually, City
Lights repeatedly turned down Kerouac's work and other beat
works.
Ferlinghetti
refused to
publish Kerouac's "Mexico City Blues", even when Ginsberg
offered to pay
for the printing costs himself out of his royalties from
"Howl" I think CL also turned down Gregory Corso's
"Bomb" and a lot of
other great beat
works. CL has gotten a lot of mileage
out of being
Allen Ginsberg's
publisher but when it comes down to it, they were a
business like any
other and only wanted to print what would sell.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:38:08 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Alice (lyric/song) by Francesco De
Gregori.
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Alice (song) by Francesco De Gregori
Alice guarda i
gatti Alice looks at the cats
e i gatti
guardano il sole and the cats look
at the sun
mentre il mondo
sta while the world
[girando senza fretta [be turning without hurry
Irene e' li' al
quarto piano Irene lives on the fourth
floor
lei e' li'
tranquilla e she is there calm
[si guarda allo specchio [and looks at oneself in the mirror
e si accende and again she catches fire
[un'altra sigaretta [a cigarette
e Lili'
Marlene and more beautiful
[bella piu' che mai [Lili Marlene that never
lei sorride she smiles you
[non ti dice la sua eta' [she doesn't tell his age
ma tutto
questo but all this
[Alice non lo sa [Alice doesn't know it
E io non ci
sto' And I am
against it
[piu' grido' lo sposo [the bridegroom shouted
e poi tutti
pensarono and then all thought
[dietro i cappelli [behind the hats
lo sposo e'
impazzito the bridegroom goes
crazy
[oppure ha bevuto [or he is drunk
ma la sposa
aspetta but the bride is
pregnant
[un figlio
e lui lo sa and he knows it
non e' cosi' che
se ne andra' it is not as that if he
will go away
Alice guarda i
gatti Alice looks at the cats
e i gatti muoiono
nel sole and the cats die in the sun
mentre il
sole while the sun
gradually draws near
[a poco a poco si avvicina
E Cesare
perduto And Cesare
lost in the rain
[nella pioggia
sta aspettando da
sei ore he is waiting for 6 hours
[il suo amore ballerina [his love ballerina
e lui rimane li' and he stays there
[a bagnarsi ancora un po' [to get wet a few still
e il tram di
mezzanotte and the midnight bus
goes away
[se ne va
ma tutto
questo but all this
[Alice non lo sa [Alice doesn't know it
E io non credo
piu' And I believe
[i pazzi siete voi [the crazy persons are you
e poi tutti
pensarono and then all thought
[dietro i cappelli [behind the hats
lo sposo e'
impazzito the bridegroom goes
crazy
[oppure ha bevuto [or he is drunk
ma la sposa
aspetta but the bride is
pregnant
[un figlio
e lui lo sa and he knows it
non e' cosi' che
se ne andra' it is not as that if he
will go away
Alice guarda i
gatti Alice looks at the cats
e i gatti girano
nel sole and the cats walk under
the sun
mentre il sole
fa while the sun
makes love to the moon
[l'amore con la luna
e il mendicante
arabo and the Arabic beggar
non ti chiede mai
pane doesn't ask you but
[mai pane o carita' [bread or charity
e ancora un
posto and still a
place
[per dormire non ce l'ha [for sleep he doesn't have
ma tutto
questo but all this
[Alice non lo sa [Alice doesn't know it
E io non
voglio and I don't want
[piu' grido' lo sposo [the bridegroom shouted
e poi tutti
pensarono and then all thought
[dietro i cappelli [behind the hats
lo sposo e'
impazzito the bridegroom has
maddened
[oppure ha bevuto [or he has drunk
ma la sposa
aspetta but the bride is
pregnant
[un figlio
e lui lo sa and he knows it
non e' cosi' che
se ne andra' it is not as that if he
will go away
---
yrs
Rinaldo. *countercultural italian song from the
late 70s*
------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:37:02 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: City Lights
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
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Sherri wrote:
> I find this
very interesting, as now City Lights publishes all or
> almost of
> Kerouac's
works now, as well as Corso's and other Beats'; and has a
> Beat
> section all
its own on the second floor along with what appears to be
> primarily
Beat poetry.
>
> i had always
thought that Ferlinghetti had run City Lights just
> because of
the
> lack of
publishers who would touch Beat works...
ah well, legends so
> often
> eclipse
harsh reality, particularly when it comes to fame & fortune.
>
> thanks for
the insight.
>
> ciao,
> sherri
> ----------
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Richard Wallner
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 1997 1:36 PM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: City Lights
>
> Actually,
City Lights repeatedly turned down Kerouac's work and other
> beat
> works.
>
> Ferlinghetti
> refused to
publish Kerouac's "Mexico City Blues", even when Ginsberg
> offered to
pay for the printing costs himself out of his royalties
> from
>
"Howl" I think CL also turned
down Gregory Corso's "Bomb" and a lot
> of
> other great
beat works. CL has gotten a lot of
mileage out of being
> Allen
Ginsberg's publisher but when it comes down to it, they were a
> business
like any other and only wanted to print what would sell.
This is an
interesting thread. While at Bancroft
library, I was able to
view original
letters from Kerouac to Ferlinghetti.
There were two
themes. One was related to the trip to Big Sur and
described some of
the incidents
protrayed in Big Sur. The other was a
discussion of Book
of Dreams and the
cover, liner notes Jack was writing for ( I think) a
Corso book and
the fact that Ferlinghetti would NOT publish Mexico City
Blues because he
DID NOT consider Jack a poet.
Interesting. There is
much to be
learned from studying the letters and notebooks of a writer
like JK.
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:42:06 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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>
> Marie
Countryman wrote:
> >
> > dave:
wonderfully written, thoughtful, and by no means illiterate.
> > a
fellow 'feeler'
> > mc
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> I must say
that my comments are illiterate. it is
not an ugly word -
> it
> is an honest
word. i have no background in what is
called "literature"
> in any
form. my background is in theories of
argumentation and
>
symbolism. my brain is sort of working
backwards in this process
> moving
> from the
scholarly and non-scholarly posts which i understand fairly
> well and
glancing at parts of the book that correlate with the posts
> throwing
that into the soup of my brain and letting it simmer and then
> finally just
letting something pop out.
David,
Your post was
wonderful! Heartfelt, instinctual, and
aimed directly at
the truth of the
matter. Nothing illiterate about
it. A background in
literature may
make one more more literary but not more literate. There
is always a need
for a more direct, poignant presentation to balance
people like me
who can be overly analytical.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:03:55 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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David,
Absolutely loved
your synopsis of VOC. Am trying to find
the words to
describe why I
still find this a frustrating-- and in many ways
unsatisfactory--
book.
J. Stauffer
RACE --- wrote:
>
> Good
morning,
>
> I have
checked out Visions of Cody and it is due back at the library
> soon. I have carried it with me and felt it many
many times. It has
> been in my
shoulder bag every day as i walk to the filling station and
> read the
morning paper to get a sensation of locale.
I have read a few
> words here
and there, typed a few words, and read many of the posts by
> folks who
are better readers than i. today i am
getting a book in the
> mail from
Diane Carter that i will definitely carry with me for at least
> a month or
two. This book is named Ulysses. It is
buy a man named
> James. Before i trade in Jack for James i felt i
would spill my guts on
> the
impressions this tired Kansan has of the book from carrying it with
> me for a
bit.
>
> Once upon a
time there was a man named Jack. Jack
had a peculiar
> genetic
makeup. He was born a feeler. Jack could feel more listening
> to a Bobby
Thompson home run on the radio than most people feel in an
> entire
lifetime.
>
. . .
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:17:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
Comments: To:
BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu, mike@infinet.com
In a message
dated 97-07-14 02:45:54 EDT, you write:
<< Foretold to other eyes on the same screen;
>>
There's a good
best western now in the fish mkt district. We stayed there
last easter when
we met up with s.clay. it's right at the entrance to the
bridge. I recited
that poem there where Crane used to take his sailors.
Actually the
heart with a heart through it and Crane's name was painted on
the bridge. Not
"carved" (how stupid of me) . And it must have been his
mother's ashes;
since he walked off the back of a ship. My old Prof. Walpole
in 50's in Kansas
joked saying it was because he learned he was hetro. But
Katheran Ann
Porter told me that when she lived with Crane in Mexico, he was
always trying to
jump off buildings. They were low haciendias, so she wd say
"oh come on
down, Hart, you will only hurt yourself.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:27:43 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
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As for me--never
trust someone who isn't something of a "dandy".
Fashion is art
too. Presentation and style just as
important in real
time as in
poetry. Jack in his signature plaid
shirts, Neal in his well
chosen outfits
(be they his first suit or jeans and t-shirt), Ginsberg
in his
self-conciously anti-fashion seedy professor look which follows
his demented guru
look . . .Plymell, the zoot suited hipster . . .
James Stauffer
>
> <<
> Were you ever much of a "dandy"
Charley? Ever take any interests in
> fashion?
>>
>
> Shit.
Haven't you seen the photos of me "going to Kansas City in my zoot
> suit? Look
at: www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html and find the photos of me in
> the 50s.
> CP
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:10:37 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: paranoia
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This part is
really great! Beginning on pg. 306 with
J quoting T.S.
Eliot
"Obviously, an image which is immediately and unintentionally
ridiculous is
merely a fancy," then writing of
the image of Cody taking
a piece of
cowdung from the stockyard tracks and laying it out to dry,
surrounded by
buzzing flies, leading to this description of paranoia (pg.
307) [of course,
by the time you get to this part of the book, you may
actually be lost
in paranoia.]
"...paranoia
preceding reality, reality flurting with paranoia, paranoia
blooming in fresh
aridities, flowering in the vale, paranoia's not a cow
palace,
paranoia's a possibility remotely to be wished or avoided, let it
go, till it
proves it was right all the time when you die, allowing his
mind to make its
own fertilizer estimations, or rather estimations by
mental ratio, the
sheer-nerve secret in the hole of the brain, the place,
for him to decide
what it is happening in the warm world that can also be
cold outside his
eyeballs, that will send back to him, by impulses of
electric mystery,
the vision, or the insanity, or the actual impulse that
everything is
happening exactly as you see it, and that this is a heinus
happenstance
there, it bodes no good, the mind doing this, then letting
the soul rebound
softly and say 'No, no, everything is really alright,
that was
paranoia, that was just a vision.' Cody
allowed himself the
conviction that
in the darkness old men lay in wait, which was proved
later when he
himself lay in the darkness of the syraw, the paranoia, the
vision, having
been just an expression of the truth of things, not the
silly-ass moment
of things! of things! 'Eliot's put the
ball up in the
air and it's
good." Eliot plays forward for
Santa Clara, it's radio
basketball."
Then it's all
brought to this conclusion:
still pg. 307
"he rolled
his hoop past his thought. But there was
nothing ridiculous,
there were no
images immediately and sensationally ridiculous; it was
just a matter of
believing in his own soul; it's just a matter of loving
your own life,
loving the story of your own life, loving the dreams as
you sleep as
parts of your life, as little children do and Cody did,
loving the soul
of man (which I have seen in the smoke), lilting in your
own breaks to
make them good or bad according to the geography of the
day..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:19:39 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To:
<970714113837_-2044436868@emout17.mail.aol.com>
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At 8:40 AM -0700
7/14/97, Diane De Rooy wrote:
> Hey, I ain't
stupid. I just read jack with my heart and soul, not with my
> book-learnin.
Who the hell is this Joyce dude anyway, and why does he have a
> chick's
name?
>
> hee hee hee
hee heeeee
Ulysses by James
Joyce
start of chapter
3, pg37
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ineluctable
modality of the visible: at least that if no more, thought
through my
eyes. Signatures of all things I am here
to read, seaspawn and
seawrack, the
nearing tide, that rusty boot.
Snotgreen, bluesilver, rust:
coloured
signs. Limits of the diaphane. But he adds: in bodies. Then he
was aware of them
bodies before of them coloured.
How? By knocking his
sconce against
them, sure. Go easy. Bald he was and a millionaire,
<<maestro
di color che sanno>>. Limit of the
diaphane in. Why in?
Diaphane,
adiaphane. If you can put your five
fingers through it, it is a
gate, if not a
door. Shut your eyes and see.
=-=-=-=-=-=
ugu ug ug I think
he's refering to Aldus Huxley?
what's the
italian?
can any of u type
on t??
god, have a hard
time reading
personally,
douglas :=x <<running
>
> ddr
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:22:15 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
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James Stauffer
wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Absolutely
loved your synopsis of VOC. Am trying to
find the words to
> describe why
I still find this a frustrating-- and in many ways
>
unsatisfactory-- book.
>
> J. Stauffer
>
> RACE ---
wrote:
> >
> > Good
morning,
> >
> > I have
checked out Visions of Cody and it is due back at the library
> >
soon. I have carried it with me and felt
it many many times. It has
> > been in
my shoulder bag every day as i walk to the filling station and
> > read
the morning paper to get a sensation of locale.
I have read a few
> > words
here and there, typed a few words, and read many of the posts by
> > folks
who are better readers than i. today i
am getting a book in the
> > mail
from Diane Carter that i will definitely carry with me for at least
> > a month
or two. This book is named Ulysses. It
is buy a man named
> >
James. Before i trade in Jack for James
i felt i would spill my guts on
> > the
impressions this tired Kansan has of the book from carrying it with
> > me for
a bit.
> >
> > Once
upon a time there was a man named Jack.
Jack had a peculiar
> > genetic
makeup. He was born a feeler. Jack could feel more listening
> > to a
Bobby Thompson home run on the radio than most people feel in an
> > entire
lifetime.
> >
> . . .
James:
Don't get scared
here, but I agree. When I read VoC years
ago, I wore
it out. Many creases etc in the spine. I studied it.
I read slow like
that and try to
get the picture. Here, I do not quite
get it. I
appreciate that
Cody rose above a dismal life in Denver selling fly
swatters. He read philosophy in the library. I suppose Jack was
impressed with
Neal's mind and self education. But is
that a true
picture?
I get the feeling
Jack is an impressionist painter here, just not up to
par with some
other things he has done. What is he
going for here?
Where and why is
he choosing this course.
I am hopelessly
bogged down in Part II.
Next, how about
some Proust?
I think it is
like You Can't Go Home Again and The Web and the Rock,
unfinished works
that leave one wanting the greatness that is partially
revealed full
flung.
So, I am not sure
I will finish Cody this second time. But
I tried.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:38:12 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: cc:
BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
In a message
dated 97-07-14 10:47:41 EDT, you write:
<< That is Cody's gift to
Jack.
The book is Jack's gift to Cody.
They both are a gift to us all. >>
When I was a boy
in Ulysses, Kansas, I used to go out on the prairie and take
a shit. The flys
buzzed around when I used to shit out on the prairie.So I
went to the city
and met Barbitol Bob in jail. The jailer was nice ,so we
sent him for nose
drops that we drank. After we got out,
Bob handed me Ez's
collected poems.
Hmm this is weird, I thought, but we two lounge lizards read
it to our boy
friends. Bob was a bellhop, and said we should go to the U. to
educate our
minds. Hmm, I thought. Why not. I Never finished high school and
he only went to
the reform school, Then our crazy English prof made us read
Ulysses. I always got it confused with portrait of an
artist as a young dog.
Bob was
illiterate, so he took only art courses and made good grades. The
fraternity called
him and he said they have all kinds of funny rules and
shit, so he
didn't join. An art prof who read Life/Time and the New Yorker,
gave me a copy of
Howl. Hmm, I said this guy fucks more than Danny, but Danny
has a 50 Buick
Roadmaster convertible and wants to go to Hollywood. A hundred
years laters, Bob
calls me and says, If you go to the Doors movie, you'll see
me and my son
hawking our paintings on Venice Beach. Wow, I said, but missed
the first part.
Makes me wonder where I would be without an educashun.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:07:16 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-14 10:47:41 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< That is Cody's gift to
> Jack.
The book is Jack's gift to Cody.
They both are a gift to us all. >>
>
> When I was a
boy in Ulysses, Kansas, I used to go out on the prairie and take
> a shit. The
flys buzzed around when I used to shit out on the prairie.So I
> went to the
city and met Barbitol Bob in jail. The jailer was nice ,so we
> sent him for
nose drops that we drank. After we got
out, Bob handed me Ez's
> collected
poems. Hmm this is weird, I thought, but we two lounge lizards read
> it to our
boy friends. Bob was a bellhop, and said we should go to the U. to
> educate our
minds. Hmm, I thought. Why not. I Never finished high school and
> he only went
to the reform school, Then our crazy English prof made us read
>
Ulysses. I always got it confused with
portrait of an artist as a young dog.
> Bob was
illiterate, so he took only art courses and made good grades. The
> fraternity
called him and he said they have all kinds of funny rules and
> shit, so he
didn't join. An art prof who read Life/Time and the New Yorker,
> gave me a
copy of Howl. Hmm, I said this guy fucks more than Danny, but Danny
> has a 50
Buick Roadmaster convertible and wants to go to Hollywood. A hundred
> years
laters, Bob calls me and says, If you go to the Doors movie, you'll see
> me and my
son hawking our paintings on Venice Beach. Wow, I said, but missed
> the first
part. Makes me wonder where I would be without an educashun.
> Charles
Plymell
now that for
those of you who don't know the dialect is what a TRUE
Kansan sounds
like.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:14:23 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: City Lights
Comments: To:
love_singing@msn.com
In a message
dated 97-07-14 18:14:57 EDT, you write:
<<
Actually, City Lights repeatedly turned down Kerouac's work and other
beat
works. >>
I knew about that
though Allen's grumbling, though Allen was always patient.
He took me to F's
house to see him. I wonder if that helped F decision to
publish my prose
book and I think it was Apoc. Rose in CLJournal. I thought L
turned down Naked
Lunch. I don't think he inderstood Burroughs. Publisher's
tastes.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:31:18 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:22:15 -0400
>
Reply-to: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
> From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz
Kirby
>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate
Impression of Visions of Cody
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> James
Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> >
Absolutely loved your synopsis of VOC.
Am trying to find the words to
> >
describe why I still find this a frustrating-- and in many ways
> >
unsatisfactory-- book.
> >
> > J.
Stauffer
> >
> > RACE
--- wrote:
> > >
> > >
Good morning,
> > >
> > > I
have checked out Visions of Cody and it is due back at the library
> > >
soon. I have carried it with me and felt
it many many times. It has
> > >
been in my shoulder bag every day as i walk to the filling station and
> > >
read the morning paper to get a sensation of locale. I have read a few
> > >
words here and there, typed a few words, and read many of the posts by
> > >
folks who are better readers than i.
today i am getting a book in the
> > >
mail from Diane Carter that i will definitely carry with me for at least
> > > a
month or two. This book is named Ulysses.
It is buy a man named
> > >
James. Before i trade in Jack for James
i felt i would spill my guts on
> > >
the impressions this tired Kansan has of the book from carrying it with
> > > me
for a bit.
> > >
> > >
Once upon a time there was a man named Jack.
Jack had a peculiar
> > >
genetic makeup. He was born a
feeler. Jack could feel more listening
> > > to
a Bobby Thompson home run on the radio than most people feel in an
> > >
entire lifetime.
> > >
> > . . .
>
> James:
>
> Don't get
scared here, but I agree. When I read
VoC years ago, I wore
> it out. Many creases etc in the spine. I studied it.
I read slow like
> that and try
to get the picture. Here, I do not quite
get it. I
> appreciate
that Cody rose above a dismal life in Denver selling fly
>
swatters. He read philosophy in the
library. I suppose Jack was
> impressed
with Neal's mind and self education. But
is that a true
> picture?
>
> I get the
feeling Jack is an impressionist painter here, just not up to
> par with
some other things he has done. What is
he going for here?
> Where and
why is he choosing this course.
>
>
> I am
hopelessly bogged down in Part II.
>
> Next, how
about some Proust?
>
> I think it
is like You Can't Go Home Again and The Web and the Rock,
> unfinished
works that leave one wanting the greatness that is partially
> revealed
full flung.
>
> So, I am not
sure I will finish Cody this second time.
But I tried.
> --
> Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
with a book as
non-linear as VofC i personally think you should just
randomly read it
a little each day (like how cody read his proust) or
as much as
possible in one sitting, but don't stop in the middle of
one of those
paragraphs or you will lose the "feeL" that way you will
eventually read
it all. cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:37:44 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a message
dated 97-07-15 01:00:18 EDT, you write:
<<
<< That is Cody's gift to
Jack.
The book is Jack's gift to Cody.
They both are a gift to us all. >>
When I was a boy in Ulysses, Kansas, I used to
go out on the prairie and
take
a shit. The flys buzzed around when I used to
shit out on the prairie.So I
went to the city and met Barbitol Bob in jail.
The jailer was nice ,so we
sent him for nose drops that we drank. After we got out, Bob handed
me Ez's
collected poems. Hmm this is weird, I thought,
but we two lounge lizards
read
it to our boy friends. Bob was a bellhop, and
said we should go to the U. to
educate our minds. Hmm, I thought. Why not. I
Never finished high school and
he only went to the reform school, Then our
crazy English prof made us read
Ulysses.
I always got it confused with portrait of an artist as a young
dog.
Bob was illiterate, so he took only art
courses and made good grades. The
fraternity called him and he said they have
all kinds of funny rules and
shit, so he didn't join. An art prof who read
Life/Time and the New Yorker,
gave me a copy of Howl. Hmm, I said this guy
fucks more than Danny, but
Danny
has a 50 Buick Roadmaster convertible and
wants to go to Hollywood. A
hundred
years laters, Bob calls me and says, If you go
to the Doors movie, you'll
see
me and my son hawking our paintings on Venice
Beach. Wow, I said, but missed
the first part. Makes me wonder where I would
be without an educashun.
Charles Plymell
----------------------- Headers
--------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:52:44 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
In a message
dated 97-07-15 01:08:41 EDT, you write:
<< , Neal
in his well
chosen outfits (be they his first suit or
jeans and t-shirt), Ginsberg
in his self-conciously anti-fashion seedy
professor look which follows
his demented guru look . . .Plymell, the zoot
suited hipster . . .
James Stauffer >>
O yeah. Neal's
signature was out of the 40's with penny loafers, levis and
white-t-shirt
with sports jacket if needed. Brando-esq. The prof Ginsberg
dress was later.
He did the white Indian signature when he discovered the
Haight . Up here
at the committe farm it was strictly
farmer's overalls. He
wore them to
England during that period where Pelieu tells of them all going
for dinner.
Burroughs said to Pelieu ... walk on this side of the street
(with Pam's
mother) so no one will think we're with THEM ..G and Peter in
farmer's
overalls. Sometimes the occasion doesn't work. I forget what Allen &
Peter were
weraing when I took themto Candy Darling's place in the Tenderloin
when Allen first
arrived from India.. Probly modified hippie and guru wear.
Anyway, Candy
didn't want ANYTHING to do with those weirdos! She of course
was in S.F. high
drag.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:01:28 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pain's Monkey
In a message
dated 97-07-15 01:24:53 EDT, you write:
I dreamt of dogs
impinged on street sign
too many animals on highway
terrified eyes of cattle through the racks
of tractor trailors on way to Chicago
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:37:46 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
In-Reply-To: <970715015243_1546477589@emout12.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:52 PM -0700
7/14/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Sometimes
the occasion doesn't work.
> I forget
what Allen &
> Peter were
weraing when I took themto Candy Darling's place in the Tenderloin
> when Allen
first arrived from India.. Probly modified hippie and guru wear.
> Anyway,
Candy didn't want ANYTHING to do with those weirdos! She of course
> was in S.F.
high drag.
Candy Darling,
Andy Warhol's old flame? andy, the
beat?=
Jim Carroll tells
a story, in basketball diaries, I believe: about how
Warhol used to
call him up on the telephone. It'd be
like 7:30 in the
morning. Andy would ask lots of questions and try to
prolong the
conversation as
long as possible. Eventually, Carroll
realized that Andy
was tape
recording the conversations and playing them back later. looking
for good source
material for his art. trying to keep a
pulse on the
street. and Andy would be upset if drugs had not been
taken, if answers
paused at no or
yes. Andy wanted action. spontaneous autonomical prose,
caught
off-guard. beauty is repulsive and must
therefore be caught
sleeping. and surprise!
This was the path, Andy was after.
So armed with
a polaroid
camera, Andy Warhol put together these words from "America"
(1985)[[his OTR--
<<So the young kids just moving
to New York to find their fortune
are instead
finding that they have to live in these incredible
neighborhoods
which look reallly dangerous because they don't have the
money to pay the
rent and live in a really good part of town.
But when
they look closely
they find that the places they usually move to are filled
with other kids
just like them and maybe it's not so bad. [[p140-144
For his polaroid
portraits, he'd take about 100 shots.
Just staring at
you, talking with
you, snapping the occasional portrait.
Then later, he'd
work down to the
_one_ essential photograph. a signal of
deeper water. 4
color
serigraphy/lithograph (or something -graph like that).
I wonder what if
Andy Warhol had been there with Neal instead?
> C. Plymell
Douglas [[note: I have yet to crack the book
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:02:59 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <l03020901aff0a83dfcbd@[198.5.212.52]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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douglas &
beati interested:
<<maestro
di color che sanno>>=Master of Sage
its' referred to
a person who is the best in the knowledge
btw im' not sure
but i think joyce parafrased a verse
by Dante
Alighieri "Divina Commedia", the work joyce liked alot,
perhaps a tribute
to San Tommaso D'Aquino the Great
Theological
Medieval Master,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
* Kerouac gave to
Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
but Neal Cassady
didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
again ciao.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:33:01 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: joyce&jack
In-Reply-To: <l03020901aff0a83dfcbd@[198.5.212.52]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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thank you sherri
and douglas for the comparisons to joyce, and especially
this post, which
has never left my mind even though i must confess to
skipping a few
hundred pages between beginning and molly's soliloquies.
mc
Ineluctable
modality of the visible: at least that if no more, thought
through my
eyes. Signatures of all things I am here
to read, seaspawn and
seawrack, the
nearing tide, that rusty boot.
Snotgreen, bluesilver, rust:
coloured
signs. Limits of the diaphane. But he adds: in bodies. Then he
was aware of them
bodies before of them coloured.
How? By knocking his
sconce against
them, sure. Go easy. Bald he was and a millionaire,
<<maestro
di color che sanno>>. Limit of the
diaphane in. Why in?
Diaphane,
adiaphane. If you can put your five
fingers through it, it is a
gate, if not a
door. Shut your eyes and see.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:57:26 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: City Lights/Beat-L Tshirt
A few other
interesting points re: Kerouac and City Lights that I discovered
in my research:
1. City Lights
signed a contract with JK to publish his Old Angel Midnight
but as we know
that never happened.
2. City Lights
only published 1/2 the manuscript of Book of Dreams -
Regarding the
infamous Beat-L T-shirt by S. Clay Wilson -
All shirts that
have been ordered have been shipped; the last ones went out
this morning so
please give it a week or so to reach you. (Charlie: your
shirts are on the
way) -
As some of you
know already, I have decided to give the shirts away free on
behalf of
the Beat List and
Water Row Books. If you sent us a check, you received a
refund. If you
ordered by credit card, no charge will be put on your account.
We still have a
few more shirts left in L-XL-XXL sizes.
If you'd like a
complimentary shirt to wear around town to help promote the
Beat-L,
just drop me a
line with name and snail-mail address and size.
Offer good while
supply lasts.
Thanks -
Jeffrey Weinberg
Water Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:56:03 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
* Kerouac gave to
Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
but Neal Cassady
didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
again ciao.
do any of you
know anything about this? was this the
beginning of the rift
between them?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:45:46 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707151401400303@msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 15 Jul
1997, Sherri wrote:
> * Kerouac
gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
> but Neal
Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
> again ciao.
>
> do any of
you know anything about this? was this
the beginning of the rift
> between
them?
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
I think the rift
that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
two kids with
wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
$$$ with a book
*about* him and wouldnt share even a penny.
Even when
Neal went to jail
on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
typewriter to use
in his cell but thats all) When Neal was
out of jail,
he asked Jack's
permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
he could feed his
kids, and Jack refused. In her book,
"Off the Road",
Carolyn Cassady
is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:55:52 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970715114032.29026A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 15 Jul
1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> I think the
rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
> two kids
with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
> $$$ with a
book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny.
What was his high
point in terms of net income -- how much did he have?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:58:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: FW:
Welcome to BEAT-L
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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7bit
Mail was bouncing
here at work, got unsubscribed. Have
resubscribed
(thanx Bill
Cargan). I love this list!
cheers, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: L-Soft list server at The City University of
NY
>(1.8c)[SMTP:LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 9:54 AM
>To: Penn, Douglas, K
>Subject: Welcome to BEAT-L
>
>Welcome to
BEAT-L, an online discussion forum devoted to the study of
>the lives and
works of the writers of the Beat Generation, especially
>Jack Kerouac,
Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs.
BEAT-L is an
>unmoderated
list open to anyone interested in the Beat Generation.
>Scholars,
writers, students, laymen -- all are welcome to join the
>discussion
and share their ideas. In addition to
providing an outlet
>for
discussion of Beat texts, the listserv is intended to facilitate
>scholarly
communication and to serve as a bulletin board or calendar
>for poetry
readings, announcements of new publications, upcoming
>conferences
and other Beat related events.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:01:05 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Sum
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
eyes
boren captifitee
anne wayting anne
wayting
four
sum one two
smutherme
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:01:04 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Nahlej
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ewenoeweno
Eyenoeweno
buhteyedunnowuteyeno
soh
eyenowuteweno
anned noe mor
soh
eyegueseweR
annedeimknot
noing
James
M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:13:38 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707151401400303@msn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Sherri &
amici beati,
check Ann
Charters' foreword in
Jack KEROUAC
"THE LEGEND OF DULUOZ"
COMPILATION
COPYRIGHT (c) THE ESTATE OD STELLA KEROUAC,
JOHN SAMPAS
LITERARY REPRESENTATIVE; AND JAN KEROUAC, 1995
Ann Charters
quoted (i have the italian translation):
"Nel 1957,
quando il suo vecchio amico Neal Cassady e uno
scatolone di
libri inviatogli dall'editore arrivarono
contemporaneamente
nel suo appartamento di Berkeley, Kerouac
diede la prima
copia di "Sulla strada" appena pubblicato
a Cassady,
protagonista del libro. In "Angeli di desolazione"
Kerouac scrisse
che quando Cassady se ne ando' "Per la prima
volta nelle
nostre vite non mi guardo' negli occhi salutandomi,
ma distolse lo
sguardo- non lo capii allora e non lo capisco
adesso- sapevo
che qualcosa stava per andare storto e ando'
storto
davvero" [translated by Maria Giulia Castagnone]
if i read in
absent-minded tell me why,
ciao a tutti,
---
yrs
Rinaldo. *a not competent beet*
At 13.56 15/07/97
UT, Sherri wrote:
>* Kerouac
gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
>but Neal
Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
>again ciao.
>
>do any of you
know anything about this? was this the
beginning of the rift
>between them?
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:16:40 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD)Allen Ginsberg: Shadow Changes Into
Bone, Vol 1, #5
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Subject:
Allen Ginsberg: Shadow Changes Into Bone, Vol 1, #5
>
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* SHADOW CHANGES INTO BONE *
>* THE CLEARINGHOUSE FOR ALL THINGS
GINSBERG *
>* http://www.ginzy.com *
>*
*
>* **VERY** OCCASIONAL
NEWSLETTER *
>* VOLUME 1, NUMBER 5 -
7/15/1997 *
>* current subscribers: 230 *
>*---------------------------------------------------------
>* This occasional newsletter is sent to those
who have *
>* visited our Ginsberg site. If you do not wish to *
>* receive these very rare messages, simply hit
reply *
>* and type REMOVE in the subject line. We'll have you *
>* taken off the list immediately! To be added to the *
>* mailing list, just drop us a line: *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* mongo.bearwolf@dartmouth.edu *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>*
*
>* PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY!!!!! *
>*
*
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>
>
>IN THIS
ISSUE:
>
> Mongo Sez...
> Events Listings
> - Boston Radio Reading of HOWL!
> "Gilly" Howls over WERE Program
Cancellation
> Portland Event Remembered
> - Transcript of trial sought
> Vegas Memorial Remembered
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>******* MONGO SEZ...
*******
>------------------------------
>
>Hi Folks!
>
>Yeah, long
time no newsletter! Blame it on a
personal life that has
>been way to
full lately, and not a summer just too beautiful to spend in
>front of the
computer...
>
>Still, stuff
has been happening, and I wanted to get a quick newsletter
>out.
>
>The big news,
which you'll find below, concerns the upcoming radio
>reading of
'Howl' on Friday! Allen dreamed and
planned for years to
>have a
station challenge the FCC "safe harbor" hours by broadcasting
>Howl during
prime time. Now it seems that a station
in Bostin is taking
>up the
challenge. The reading sounds excellent,
and I'm (luckily) going
>to be in
Boston that day. I'll be trying to tune
in, and let you know
>of any
aftermath.
>
>In a related
story, see the piece that follows about Gilly's reading of
>'Howl'. Some brave folks lead the way. Others punish those who dare to
>lead...
>
>I have also
received a couple of nice remembrances written about
>memorial
services held in Portland and Las Vegas, contributed by
>correspondents. Now that the memorials have pretty much
dwindled away,
>there aren't
a lot of events to announce. So if you
hear of any, please
>let me
know. I'll get them on the web page and
out via this mailing
>list.
>
>Several
people responded to my call for those interested in
>participating
in an on-line Allen Ginsberg discussion group.
>Unfortunately,
it wasn't quite enough to make it worth doing yet. If we
>can find just
a few more folks, I'll get the list set up and
>operational. I feel we need to have at least 15-20 folks
on line to
>make it
interesting and self sustaining (and to justify the $20 a month
>it will cost
me)!
>
>Best wishes
to you all, and do keep in touch!
>
>--Mongo
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>******* EVENTS LISTINGS *******
>---------------------------------
>
>I'll post
these notices as soon as they come in. If you have an event,
>write to me:
mongo.bearwolf@dartmouth.edu
>
>
>----------------------------------
>BOSTON, MA
(and surrounding area):
>----------------------------------
>
>A Radio
Reading of HOWL
>Friday, July
18
>
>On July 18,
there is going to be a complete reading of HOWL on WFNX.
>Included
readers are Robert Pinsky, Frank Bidart, Gail Mazur, Elsa
>Dorfman,
Harvey Silverglate, Lloyd Schwartz. This reading during prime
>time is a
memorial tribute to Allen, who was obsessed with the fact that
>the FCC
wouldn't allow HOWL over the airwaves in prime time.
>
>We would like
OTHER radio stations in the country to also air HOWL
>during prime
time.
>
>-- Elsa
Dorfman
>Portrait
Photographer
>607 Franklin
Street
>Cambridge MA
02139-2923
>http://elsa.photo.net
>elsad
@world.std.com
>
>
>** [The
Following is culled from a Boston Globe article. --M]
>
>WFNX TO AIR
'HOWL" DESPITE FCC
>by Susan
Bickelhaput, Globe Staff
>
>WFNX-FM
(101.7) owner Stephan Mindich insists that it's not his
>intention to
thumb his nose at the Federal Communications Commission
>next week
when the station airs a reading of the Poems "Howl," by the
>late Allen
Ginsberg
>
>But Mindich
does acknowledge that he is pushing the envelope.
>
>The poem,
written by Ginsberg in 1955, has never been aired on
>commercial
radio to Mindich's knowledge, and along with George Carlin's
>"seven
dirty words" was flagged by the FCC in the late 1960s as verboten
>broadcast
material.
>
>But the staff
of WFNX organized a half-hour-long reading of the poem in
>May at Mama
Kin, and will broadcast it next Friday from 6 to 7 pm. News
>director
Henry Santoro will host the show, which will also feature
>commentary by
Robert Pinsky, Peter Wolf, Gail Mazur, Harvey Silvergate,
>Lloyd
Schwartz, Elsa Dorfman, and Mindich, among others.
>
>"We
don't want to do this strictly to challenge the FCC, that wasn't the
>grand
plan," said program director Bill Glasser, "But we want to air the
>work as a
tribute to Allen Ginsberg." So the
poem will not be relegated
>to the FCC's
"safe harbor," which rules that so-called indecent
>programming
can only air between 10 pm and 6 am.
>
>Mindich said
"Howl," which is a "very direct and complex poem about
>Allen's world
view and experiences," contains language that "most
>newspapers
would dot out and most broadcasters would bleep out." It is
>the contex,
he said, that makes it acceptable.
>
>He said the
idea stemmed from a conversation with Boston Phoenix editor
>Peter Kadzis
and photographer Dorfman.
>
>"We knew
there could be a problem with the language, but I just don't
>think this is
outside of the [FCC] standards," Mindich said. "My
>purpose isn't
to challenge the FCC, but I do believe that prime time is
>a value time
when adult listeners will tune in. And
there is a clear
>delineation
between that which is art and that which isn't.
>
>Mindich, who
also is published of the alternative weekly Boston Phoenix,
>said he also
sees a relationship "between the DNA" of the paper and the
>station. "Over the years we have pushed the
envelope with things we
>thought had
artistic merit," he said.
>
>He added that
since the station is not publicly owned, he is prepared to
>deal with the
consequences.
>
>"We are
a medium to communicate, and I can make that decision," he
>said. "I don't have to worry about Wall Street
or what a board of
>directors
will say. If there is a FCC problem, I
will deal with it."
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>****
"GILLY" HOWLS OVER WERE PROGRAM CANCELLATION ****
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>*[Contributed
by a correspondent --M]
>
>Even in
death, Allen Ginsberg is causing problems. The feisty beat
>generation
poet, who died earlier this year, was the topic of the April
>20
"Gilly Show," a highly rated overnight program on WERE AM 1300. A
>reading from
Ginsberg's poem "Howl" led to the cancellation of the
>program,
allegedly in response to a single telephone complaint received
>by the
station Wednesday, April 23.
>
>During the
final half hour of the late-night program, Gilly (Rick
>Gilmour), the
show's host, read section I from the acclaimed poem in
>tribute to
Ginsberg. In advance of the reading, which contained a
>reference to
sodomy, the station provided a warning to listeners that
>the program's
content may contain objectionable language.
>
>Gilmour, who
has had his own show on the station since June, 1996,
>contests that
WERE management gave assurance months ago that the only
>grounds for
cancellation of "The Gilly Show" would be for violation of
>the FCC's
Safe Harbor Policy, which allows for use of certain taboo
>words during
off-peak airtime hours, if used in a socially redeeming
>context.
>
>The portion
of the poem which drew objection refers to people, "... who
>let
themselves be fucked in the ass by saintly motorcyclists and
>screamed with
joy ..." Gilmour maintains no violations ever occurred on
>any broadcast
of the program, which was pulled from WERE's lineup the
>day after
Gilmour was notified "The Gilly Show" was the station's top
>program.
>
>"We
didn't break FCC policy, and station management never clearly laid
>out a policy
for board operators," Gilmour told SCENE, absolving
>coworkers for
not censoring the broadcast. "Nobody knows what the line
>is. I wanted
to draw a line, and that's why I did it."
>
>"I don't
know what all the fuss is about," said WERE Station Manager
>John Hill,
citing company policy and not FCC rules as the reason for the
>show's
demise. "We have six or seven easy-to-follow rules, and what
>Gilly did was
one of the things you can't do."
>
>According to
Gilmour, management called the station "too conservative"
>for
"that kind of language," and said Gilmour should have known better.
>"My
audience is pretty progressive," he responded. "I even had old women
>that would
call."
>
>The move
doesn't effect Gilmour's Saturday program, "Beer Talk," which
>will continue
in its 10 p.m. time slot on WERE. "I'm certainly not going
>to penalize
him for the 'Beer Talk' show -- in fact, I'm not penalizing
>him, at
all," Hill said, amazed by the attention the subject has gained
>in the past
week. "You'd think we just canceled the 'Seinfeld' show."
>
>And while
Hill insisted "The Gilly Show" will not return to WERE,
>Gilmour sees
things differently.
>
>"Do I
expect to get my show back?" Gilmour said. "Yes, because I've
>given WERE
more publicity for them screwing me out of my job than they
>could
buy."
>
> http://www.clevescene.com/970501/make0501.htm
>
>
>----------------------------------------------
>******* PORTLAND MEMORIAL REMEMBERED *******
>----------------------------------------------
>
>From:
Andi5757@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 5
Jun 1997 23:14:08 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject:
hello from Portland, Oregon
>
>well
yesterday here in Portland there was a memorial reading done for
>Allen on the
occasion of his birthday. It was held at
Powell's
>bookstore,
the major independent new and used bookstore in Portland,
>which carries
on in its own way the spirit of City Lights bookstore.
>
>The readings
of Allen's work were done by a half dozen or more local
>Portland
poets who also shared reminiscences of their brief encounters
>with Allen
over the years. The reading was attended
by oh i'd say about
>70 to 100
people.
>The readers
had fun reading and for an hour an a half i would say that
>the spirit of
playfulness, sensuality, and authentic outrage and wonder
>that Allen
represents to people was alive.
>
>One reading
in particular was very moving to me. It
came from the
>transcript of
the Chicago 7 trial in 1969 as an aftermath of the 1968
>democratic
convention in Chicago. Allen was called
to testify in the
>trial. The prosecution's cross examination included
an exchange
>something
like: " and what did you do when you thought there was going
>to be
violence? Allen well I Omed? You omed?
yes like this and then
>Allen
proceeds to do a half dozen om's. Upon
which there is an
>objection
which causes the judge to say we'll strike from the record the
>Om's after
the second Om.
>
>then Allen is
able to recite a poem about Whitman which was from reality
>sandwiches
which was increadibly sensuous. Allen
was asked byt he
>prosecution
what he meant by that poem, hoping to discredit him by as a
>queer. But Allen gives this incredibly moving reply
something to the
>effect that
until America can come to terms with its attitudes about
>sexuality
that it could not be healed from the horrors of war etc.
>
>if you know
of a way to find that exact passage in the trial's
>transcript, I
>would really
like to get a copy of his testimony in that trial...
>
>love
>andi
>
>
>-------------------------------------------
>******* VEGAS MEMORIAL REMEMBERED *******
>-------------------------------------------
>
>From: Bruce K. Isaacson, 102747,2722
>DATE: 6/14/97 4:39 PM
>RE: Ginsberg Night at Enigma Garden, Las Vegas,
Nevada
>
>For your
information.....
>
>June 3, 1997
was Allen Ginsberg's 71st birthday. On
that evening, a
>group of 60
or so Las Vegas poets, writers, artists, bohos, and other
>illuminati
turned out to remember Allen and honor his work and
>contribution. There were notable poems commemorating
Allen's work from
>German
Santanilla and Gregory Crosby. Dayvid
Figler got the crowd
>bubbling with
his own work and brought an excellent version of Allen
>reading
"America", which held the audience intensely with its Vegas-like
>mix of humor
and ennui. Emmanuel read Allen's poem
written to an
>Eldorado High
School student, which contains a visionary mix of Howard
>Hughes-like
paranoia and old-fashioned Mob lore to
describe Vegas of
>the 70s and
America still. Other parts of Allen's
work read included
>Ignu and
Kaddish. Tribute poems to Allen by
excellent poets who Allen
>favored such
as Bob Kaufman and Helen Adam were also read aloud. There
>was a score
of Allen's books passed around by various people who brought
>them,
including some limited editions as well as City Lights and Harper
>& Row
publications. Las Vegas poets who read
also included Art Slate,
>Eavonka
Ettinger, Joel Parilini, Mike Gullickson, Mike Flower, Jackie
>Nourigat,
Mark Griffith and Gloria King. A good
time was had by all
>who attended
and many came away with increased interest in one of
>America's
unique and excellent voices.
>
>Thanks to Las
Vegas journalist and Enigma Cafe owner Lenadams Doris for
>making it
possible. I'd welcome hearing from
anyone with other
>remembrances
or comment.
>
>Bruce
Isaacson
>BruceI@compuserve.com
>Within a few
weeks I expect the e-mail address to change to
>BruceI@skylink.net
>
>
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* This occasional newsletter is sent to those
who have *
>* visited our Ginsberg site. If you do not wish to *
>* receive these very rare messages, simply hit
reply *
>* and type REMOVE in the subject line. We'll get you *
>* taken off the list immediately! To be added to the *
>* mailing list, just drop us a line: *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* mongo.bearwolf@dartmouth.edu *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:32:33 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: [eye] Sum [soup]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
little kid
chinese
restaurant
pickup sticks
make em click
yum yum
mu shu new shu
size 11
hmm
[[ spent a good
hour last night listening to the sights in my
neighborhood
[[ per Aristotle,
we're supposed to be able to modify our hearing
[[ but fixed in
our vision, seeing, perceptions and believing
[[ the words
before you are true ??? listening?
sounds like a
vision >>Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: James William
Marshall[SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 11:01 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Sum
>
>eyes
>boren
captifitee
>anne wayting
anne wayting
>four
>sum one two
>smutherme
>
>
James M.
<<nice>>
reminds me of
Patti Smith and Tom Verlaine's "the night"
>all this
"eye" talk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:50:13 -0400
Reply-To: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970715114032.29026A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
The impression i
got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
for JK's portrayl
of him, and that after a while he got over it.
As for
the rift between
them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
diverging
lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
carolyn cassady)
than a petty disagreement over money?
Tracy
On Tue, 15 Jul
1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> On Tue, 15
Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
> > *
Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
> > but
Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
> > again
ciao.
> >
> > do any
of you know anything about this? was
this the beginning of the rift
> > between
them?
> >
> > ciao,
> > sherri
> >
>
> I think the
rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
> two kids
with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
> $$$ with a
book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
> Neal went to
jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
> typewriter
to use in his cell but thats all) When
Neal was out of jail,
> he asked
Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
> he could
feed his kids, and Jack refused. In her
book, "Off the Road",
> Carolyn
Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:55:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Lusha M. Kaufmann"
<kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lusha M. Kaufmann"
<kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>
Subject: Info on Billie Holiday
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello, I had a
question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
presentation on
Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday,
unfortunately the
time restraint
has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels
to find mention
of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this
list. I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and
therefore seek your help
even more.
Thank you
Lush
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:10:01 -0400
Reply-To: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0
(WebTV)
This isn't
exactly beat ( I believe he's usually saddled with the label
"NY School
of Poets"-- which a friend once pointed out sounds like he
took a correspondence
class advertised on a matchbook
cover...), but
Frank O'Hara's
The Day Lady Died is a really lovely tribute, and among
my favorite
poems.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:01:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
> R. Bentz
Kirby wrote:
>
> I get the
feeling Jack is an impressionist painter here, just not up to
> par with
some other things he has done. What is
he going for here?
> Where and
why is he choosing this course.
>
> I am
hopelessly bogged down in Part II.
>
> Next, how
about some Proust?
>
> I think it
is like You Can't Go Home Again and The Web and the Rock,
> unfinished
works that leave one wanting the greatness that is partially
> revealed
full flung.
>
> So, I am not
sure I will finish Cody this second time.
But I tried.
Bentz,
The more of Cody
I read, the more I like it. I think that
the hard thing
to grasp is the
mixture of writing styles but that's inherent in an
approach that
takes events out of time and treats them as visions,
perhaps
dream-like, expressions of moments. I do
think that he thought a
lot about the
structure of this book and that there is a method in his
madness, so to
speak. I've still got another hundred
pages to go and I
don't know how it
ends, but I think he was struggling with a way to
present
timelessness and unconscious/mythical configurations as an
overlay over
actual events, and that is a hard thing to do and a hard
thing to
read. I'm still not sure if he's pulled
it off.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:06:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
Comments: To:
babu@electriciti.com
In a message
dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:
<<
I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there
with Neal instead? >>
That's a good
one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink
would have been
off just like the portraits.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:19:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
love_singing@msn.com
Of course. Where
would any of us be with the petty quarrling?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:51:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a message
dated 97-07-15 15:11:57 EDT, you write:
<< Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
typewriter to use in his cell but thats
all) >>
Thanks a lot.
Yeah. I'll never forget those eyes when Neal pleaded with me to
lend him a fin
($5.00) to buy gas to the Hell's Angels party. It's a look you
never want to
see. I've seen it on the Bowery and every skid row too much. He
had to make a big
deal about paying me back. Of course he never had to go
through any of
this. And It wasn't part of a con; It was atavistic. So
anyway, fuck
miserly Jack, who had a lot of things going for him except
class. Neal had
more of that.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:20:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
tjneuman@umich.edu
In a message
dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:
<< and
perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement
over money?
Tracy >>
I'd guess that
money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,
Unless, of course
he was humping her whlie N was in prison.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:34:07 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <33CBBAE4.2E42@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:01 AM -0700
7/15/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> I'm still
not sure if he's pulled it off.
see Man Ray,
"L'enigme d'Isidore Ducasse" (1920)
and what's
underneath? pray tell, Diane?
> DC = deux
chat
dancing pirate
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:30:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message
dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
<< Hello, I
had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
to find mention of her. >>
Oh fer Chrissake!
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:32:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
kaufmanl@pacificu.edu, baculum@mci2000.com
In a message
dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.
Kaufmann) writes:
<< Hello, I
had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
to find mention of her. So I was hoping to get
some information from this
list. I
plead ignorance of most beat lit, and therefore seek your help
even more.
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:40:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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Tracy J Neumann
wrote:
>
> The
impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
> for JK's
portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
> the rift
between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
> diverging
lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
> carolyn
cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>
> Tracy
>
> On Tue, 15
Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>
> > On Tue,
15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
> >
> > > *
Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
> > >
but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
> > >
again ciao.
> > >
> > > do
any of you know anything about this? was
this the beginning of the
rift
> > >
between them?
> > >
> > >
ciao,
> > >
sherri
> > >
> >
> > I think
the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
> > two
kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
> > $$$
with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
> > Neal
went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
> >
typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)
When Neal was out of jail,
> > he
asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
> > he
could feed his kids, and Jack refused.
In her book, "Off the Road",
> > Carolyn
Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
> >
You forget to
mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn.
Disagreements
over sexual
situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements
about money last
longer--beleive me, I've been there.
This one was
about money. Jack was no sexual threat to Neal.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:34:12 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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now now charlie,
don't you feel like doing this persons homework,
why we could suggest a reading list. I won't
flame the guy cause that
soft hearted
salina guy will tut me with his patience.
and i have been
there, don't feel like actually reading the stuff
and then coming up
with an idea of
something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an
idea and ask
people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't
been there.
because i love to
read and talk
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:47:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
In-Reply-To:
<970715230547_-1125008626@emout11.mail.aol.com>
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At 8:06 PM -0700
7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there
with Neal instead? >>
>
> That's a
good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink
> would have
been off just like the portraits.
no no no. those were the pissing portraits. where Joe Dellasandro emptied
his bladder. and don't forget fuck, heat, and what where
some of his other
film titles? Will never forget Dracula and
Frankenstein. changed me
forever as a
kid. jeez, and can't keep bowie's
suffragette city off my
tape player,
either. damn.
I miss Andy. and Versace who died today. all dandies must morn. Andy
created the term
"superstar". Got his start
designing shoe advertisments.
Who would have
thought? that some other agenda should
come along and shoot
him!
but andy would
have talked real slow. I'm told he had
quite the wit, but
don't know if
Neal wouldn't get quickly bored with him.
Kerouac at least
seems to keep his
attention. they cruised similar
strips. I guess andy
and neal would
talk about cars and chicks or fame and death and dying.
yeah? <<Andy
yeah. <<Neal
[[lots of staring
out to sea
> C
Plymell = count plymouth
dancing paris
<<laugh......
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:49:01 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
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From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To:
<970715231931_1961001112@emout15.mail.aol.com>
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At 8:19 PM -0700
7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Of course.
Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?
without Charles. WITHOUT!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:13:39 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970716003008_-1460255033@emout12.mail.aol.com>
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On Wed, 16 Jul
1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
> to find mention of her. >>
>
> Oh fer
Chrissake!
> C. Plymell
dear plymell:
>
what the hell
does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
there and how
dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
response brings
up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
enough question.
this list is, among other things, for such questions and
questings.
if you are not
--any of you--interested in responding in some
constructive way
to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
snotty repost
from deep left field!!!!
steve
(who is, in all
forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
mentions---and i
feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
message to the
beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
they will talk
with you and care about some of the same things you care
about"; i,
for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
work for her; she
has been interested enough to go out here on the list
for views and
news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
snotty snit.)
s.s.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:24:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Blues for Gianni
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Sic transit gloria,
Gianni
No beat certainly
but terrific flair.
A loss to
Eurotrash everywhere. Not a dandy tho,
sort of an
anti-dandy--the
triumph of flash over taste, but god rest his soul. I'll
miss the
catalogs, acres of lovely flesh to sell a teacup or a necktie.
Warhol would have
liked him, I should think.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:36:36 -0700
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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Steve,
As one who flamed
your student let me just say this. If
someone came on
the list with a
question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to
test, I think
they'd get a fair response. The post
which started this
admitted a lack
of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.
How would you
like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with
On the Road. I don't have time to read it, could someone
please help me
by posting a
summary. Thanks so much. I sure am looking forward to
being a college
graduate."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:02:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33CC6BF4.605E@pacbell.net>
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On Tue, 15 Jul
1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Steve,
>
> As one who
flamed your student let me just say this.
If someone came on
> the list
with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to
> test, I
think they'd get a fair response. The
post which started this
> admitted a
lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.
> How would
you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with
> On the Road. I don't have time to read it, could someone
please help me
> by posting a
summary. Thanks so much. I sure am looking forward to
> being a
college graduate."
>
dear james: bit
of a logical fallacy in yer response above, eh? yes, she did
mention lack of
time--a bit of a fall on her part: what she was saying
most of all
(negated or circumscribed due no doubt to email structure and
her own
nervousness about posting to the list for the first time) was
that she was
looking for extra stuff AFTER her own work.
the logical
fallacy gig i mention is that not one part of your analogy
even remotely
applies to her original post or to the spirit of it.
however, i do see
how you might go off half-cocked like this-----i made
the same mistake
(as i painfully found out) on another list
i monitor all
lists that i suggest my students use for conversation and
info---i would
consider it a serious breach of academic honesty for any
of them to get
others to do their work for them; i do not in the
slightest way
feel that lusha has done such a thing on the beat-l list
i must say that i
will think twice before i suggest the list address to
my students in
the future
please, james, do
not consider this a response only to you--in tone or in
content; i am up
in arms in a general way--and always with the best
interests of my
student and her interests and feelings in mind
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:16:48 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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I tend to agree
with Charles on this one. Forgetting hat
it sounds a lot
someone asking
for someone else to do their homework (a common event on "the
net")
But,
Billie Holiday is
not "a Women beat". Might as
well do a topic on Buddy
Bolden Jimmie
Rodgers or Robert Johnson or maybe in keeping with the woman
theme, Bessie
Smith or Lena Horne or Sarah Vaughn or anybody
How Kate (God
Bless America
Smith?). How about Patsy Cline?
I guess you are
limiting the topics to people mentioned in Beat writing.
How about Yma
Sumac???
Also, what do you
expect to glean from the writings and poetry you don't
have time to read
in terms of a presentation on Billie Holliday?
So is your
presentation
about Billie Holliday or about what was written about her by
some drunken
beatniks? Letting us know more would help.
The easyest way
for you to learn something about Billie Holliday is to go to
Blockbuster video
and rent Lady Sings the Blues (1972 starring Diana Ross
and Billie Dee
Williams).
And to answer
your question anyhoooooow (so don't say I didn't help ya) in
Visions of Cody
there is a bit where they mention Billie Holliday and her
song Gloomy
Sunday as the suicide song of the thirties.
And also don't go
sulk. Write back if you are actually
keen on this.
At 11:13 PM
7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wed, 16
Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>> In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>>
>> <<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
>> texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
>> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
>> time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
>> to find mention of her. >>
>>
>> Oh fer
Chrissake!
>> C.
Plymell
>
>dear plymell:
>>
>what the hell
does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
>there and how
dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
>response
brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
>enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
>questings.
>
>if you are
not --any of you--interested in responding in some
>constructive
way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
>snotty repost
from deep left field!!!!
>
>steve
>
>(who is, in
all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>mentions---and
i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
>message to
the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
>they will
talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
>about";
i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
>work for her;
she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
>for views and
news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
>snotty snit.)
>
>s.s.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:17:41 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Just because some beat me to it don't
mean I can't say it too
Comments: To:
race@MIDUSA.NET
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Say what? Thank
you David. Not that that tired old clich=E9 means
anything, nor do
i mean to insinuate in any way that you did it looking
for any kind of
thanks or something like it, still i been wantin to tell
you as soon as I
read your piece, that was just one of those things that
happen once in a
great while when something is just all right, in the
right time, and
right on time too, not to mention right on target, The
best for the last
after all kinds of agonizing brilliant flashes
sparking energies
all around.
As I found myself
writing to a friend I suddenly realized I should let
you know too how
it made me feel. And now that I do, I would be less
than candid if I
didn't mention to you that this protesting of
illiteracy so much does make me wonder, hey what's going
on here.
Myself I thought
one of the virtues of your post was that it took a
populist style so
to speak as opposed to an exhibition of alive
effervescent
erudition and agility like almost magician sparkling before
my eyes, still
not quite matching my non-literary real life
nevertheless,
impressions of the subject of these eloquent theories also
that plain
folks like me also are grateful to be
within ear shot though
feeling not up to
the task of entering knowledgeable literary, poetic
philosophic let
alone moral judgments and considerations, in other words
having enjoyed
the great inspired symphony in awed drop jaw silence, you
helped me catch
my breath again, to find my voice jabbering nonsense,
forgive me
everybody
I am delighted
with the poetic justice that awarded you such a fitting
celebration after
the brilliant flowers that shot up in the garden that
you planted. You
drew such dedicated energy of such immense talents.
ending with such
a beautiful bouquet to crown the fruits of David's
taking your call
so close to his heart, which beats
pretty close to
that backpack
also, and coming through, coming through, hey guys, look
at it this way. I
too felt a strong draw to immediately let him know how
welcome his touch was, but I was derailed. I had time
to answer a
couple of
letters. And one thing I did that I hadn't done before, was
forward a post. I
was answering John Cassady's invitation for a lunch,
and I added on to
him David's post. Come to think of it, I too should
say something to
David (Our counterpart of Rinaldo Rasa?). Now that I
think of it I'll
snip this his part of this letter and send it to him.
He deserves all
the responses that he gets. End of snip
Now come to think
of it again, I'll mail it to us on the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:59:49 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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At 12:32 AM
7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message
dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.
>Kaufmann)
writes:
>
><< Hello,
I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
> presentation
on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday,
unfortunately the
> time
restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels
> to find
mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this
> list. I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and
therefore seek your help
> even more.
> >>
>
Billy was a
wonderful singer, but who ever said she was a beat?
Anyway, look at
the Diane Ross film Lady Sings the Blues if you
want a distorted
overview.
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:04:28 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:34 PM
7/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>now now
charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,
> why we could
suggest a reading list. I won't flame the guy cause that
>soft hearted
salina guy will tut me with his patience.
and i have been
>there, don't feel like actually reading the stuff
and then coming up
>with an idea
of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an
>idea and ask
people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't
>been there.
>because i
love to read and talk
>p
>
>
The last time I
saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the
City Lights
bookstore in S.F., tying up her arm for a hot
shot of horse
from a syringe dangling from her
purse. Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I
that
night, but she
didn't seem to give a shit. She had a
date
to meet Lenny
Bruce in front of City Lights. So who
shows
up? Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert
Goldman!
Strange Fruit,
don't you think?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:03:04 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 09:40 PM
7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Tracy J
Neumann wrote:
>>
>> The
impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
>> for JK's
portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
>> the rift
between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
>>
diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
>> carolyn
cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>>
>> Tracy
>>
>> On Tue,
15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>>
>> > On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>> >
>> >
> * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy
printed
>> >
> but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
>> >
> again ciao.
>> >
>
>> >
> do any of you know anything about this?
was this the beginning of the
> rift
>> >
> between them?
>> >
>
>> >
> ciao,
>> >
> sherri
>> >
>
>> >
>> > I
think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
>> > two
kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
>> > $$$
with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
>> >
Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
>> >
typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)
When Neal was out of jail,
>> > he
asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
>> > he
could feed his kids, and Jack refused.
In her book, "Off the Road",
>> >
Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>> >
>
>
>You forget to
mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn.
Disagreements
>over sexual
situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements
>about money
last longer--beleive me, I've been there.
This one was
>about
money. Jack was no sexual threat to
Neal.
>
>James
Stauffer
>
>
Listen, Gore
Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
and had been
lovers, at least at times. isn't it
possible
homosexuality
played a role in their rift?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:12:47 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Gianni Versace.
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COME VORREI MORIRE by Gianni Versace
COME IL CONTE SALINA DI LAMPEDUSA,
IL GATTOPARDO: GUARDANDO
IL LAGO, CON SERENITA'.
LA MORTE NON MI FA PAURA.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:04:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: From Cody to Stephen
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Good Morning,
Friends, and that
is what i feel so many of you are, cybernetically
connected to me
more closely than most people i know - i thought i would
sit down for a
moment this morning while sipping my first cup of coffee
and express some
gratitude for all the wonderful comments i have
received recently
both on the List and Off. I must admit
that my big
toe is swelling a
bit but fortunately not my head yet. =20
A very wise man
taught me through a book that it is all about having an
angle and so i
guess that i just looked at all the different geometric
shapes created by
others and then stepped back about ten paces and took
in the larger
portrait. =20
I've enjoyed the
specific comments and what one refered to me as the
reinvigoration of
the cyberthread or something along those lines.
I
believe that
certain people have made a serious question about the
nature of the
gift that Jack gave Cody and the appreciation of it and i
really just
thought about the times at Christmas and Birthdays when
people who loved
me with their hearts full gave me presents that were so
far from what i
really desired that i sometimes wanted to scream - don't
you know i'll
never wear these things! But i never did
because to me
there is
something about intentionality when it comes to the giving of
gifts even of the
legendary and the mythic variety - and even in these
perhaps
archetypal rituals of gift-giving we can look back and say that
it is the thought
that counts.
As i said, i am
moving ahead to another book and today on July 16 i will
finally crack
this book by James Joyce that just feels powerful. I
believe that i
will actually read this book about June 16 very slowly
and linearly.
I realize the
journey will be dangerous. A dear friend
in Kansas City
reported that
half way through Ulysses he had a stroke.
The doctors
didn't declare
any causal relationship but it makes you wonder.
So armed with
guides and bodyguards and a rolling tape of the Grateful
Dead playing
Saint Stephen in my mind i trudge forward.
I will turn
into the chapter
titled I this morning some time.
Here were my
impressions of Judging the upcoming book by its cover...
Erasing Apollo -
Erasing Bacchus: Another tale in the Legend of
Abraxas......
I hold the black
and white book in my hands listening to a man with my
middle name as he
maps the stars that one reads on a journey along the
road of the
physical world or along the roads twisting and turning in
and out as one
attempts to find the oblique pathway back to the sanity
of times
forgotte. The eternal myth of return is
recounted in this
black and white
book and I have so many guides helping me from stars
beyond parallel
universes all the way home to the safety and security of
a sacred bathroom
in an apartment named #23. This journey
is the
oblique pathway
from insanities so personal that perhaps they should not
be told. Some say that in the telling I can help
others to find their
way but each
route winds a different road up and around hollers in the
mountains and
back through misty mornings in the hill country going
through the roots
of one=92s psyche and physical ancestry chasing a hope
of return, return
to something that maybe never was but hopefully will
be when I get
there. This map is not an accurate
description of the
territory and at
best is my individual map and no one can learn
themselves from
it, only me. For those who find that
uninteresting, as
I might, I would
not be at all offended if you set this down and
returned to your
busy lives and the realities of everyday magic that you
love and
cherish. If you don=92t love and cherish
the everyday elements
of your life,
perhaps you should read on for a bit at least, because the
places and
stories of the unreal-realities that were so deeply felt to
me makes the
lives of the average James and Joyce a portrait of the
mysteries of
happiness. I hold the book in my
hand. Just holding it is
enough for
now. No need to open this book yet. =20
Some might think
my perceptions off for saying that this is a black book
with white
letters. Even I did for quite some
time. Many say don=92t
judge a book by
its cover and being the intrinsically rebellious type I
have done so for
many many years. My judgement is that
this will be a
good book. I think of Melanie=92s line - wish I could
find a good book t=
o
live in. I don=92t really feel that I will live in
this book, not
permanently at
least, but it appears at first glance to be a good enough
to help me find
my way into my own book, a book that does not represent
my Self but
actually is me. Hopefully, these
somewhat random musings
along the journey
through this good book will provide direction for me
towards a book
worth living in that is one in which I am both author and
protagonist and
most of the characters in the mist.
The white letters
on the black background appear on the back of this
book. At the top right hand corner of the back
cover is the word
LITERATURE. And I smile and say to my little self well
it=92s about time
you journey into
this Type of Book to see where it will take you - you
dork! =20
I read further
and am zapped by a lightning bolt of synchronicity
recognizing the
white numerals signify the year in which I was born. It
is as if the
complete and unabridged text was corrected and entirely
reset just for
me. At least that will be the way it is
for a period of
time as my mind
wanders through this book checking in with my guides and
bodyguards along
the way.
I am sitting on
my sofa as I read these white words and it is brown and
green and
belonged to my step-Grandmother Mary Vineyard who died fairly
recently. I visited her and her son Don - my stepfather
and conservator
- at the nursing
home shortly before her death and we both watched and
felt her pain and
I watched Don=92s pain the tough Marine facing the
passing of his
Mother and it was such a touching and sorrowful event.=20
Entire books
could be written about gentle Mary Vineyard and her sons
but that is not
the direction that my words will go today.
Rather, I
will sit on her
sofa as I examine this book corrected and reset in the
year of my birth
into this world.
I read further
and see that the original American edition, which is all
I could possibly
comprehend, was published at the time that my parents
were infants and
that there is a foreward by the author and a foreward
containing the
court decision concerning the censorship of this good
book in my hands
the opinion of a Judge John M. Woosley.
My heart leaps
for joy. I will be able to meet the
author before
delving into this
new ground of literature but I will be able to ground
the entire
reading in an area of my expertise as I spent an entire year
involved in
critical study and reearch of American first amendment law.=20
It will be
interesting to ponder Judge Woosley=92s words in light of the
notions of
critical theory and postmodern criticism which I have studied
in application to
the good book I am about to travel through.
It will
provide an anchor
to this journey of a time when my mind was not only
fine but sharp as
a tack when I spent hours examining and analyzing and
synthesizing the
words of Supreme Court justices in an attempt to create
new visions of
thought relating to subject matters loosely thrown
together under
the veil of freedom of expression.
A numerological
code is explained which may be beyond me, but it appears
that this edition
which allows the pages of the old to appear in the
pages of the new
and this makes me think of the relativity of time but
not so much that
my mind spins off in a tornado.
This is the first
time it is in paperback. Perfect. I much prefer
paperbacks
especially used ones because you can feel the past in them
much better. They read more like a well worn pair of
tattered Levis
than a Tuxedo and
I am much more at home in the tattered blue jeans.
One other thing
appears in white on the back cover. a
numerical code.=20
394-70380-4. I remember and laugh at myself times in the
past when I
would search for
meaning in the numerical code of the book rather than
open the book and
read it. Perhaps just a different form
of perception
a different
methodology of reading. Probably not
though!
These are the
white letters on the cover and they are indeed
meaningful. The remainder of the cover provides
incredibly enticing
emblems including
three flowers (which I will proclaim are sunflowers)
two purple and
one red with faces on the inside where the sunflower
seeds grow and I
laugh at the time in Winston-Salem North Carolina where
a appalachian
trail hiker named Easy Rider decided that I was Johnny
Sunflower
Seed. I wonder what he=92s doing now?
The book has a
tattered front cover. Just like my
favorite jeans. It
is an
antique. I will cherish this book like
one is I live in it for
some time to
come. I peak inside the back cover. It appears that a
previous owner
had difficulty with getting a pen to produce ink and
swirled and
swirled around until the ink came along in a jagged little
line in the
middle of the swirls. Lightning bolt
among the swirling
waters. I declare that this page is art.
What a wonderful
cover. What a good book. I will definitely move into
this book
soon. But for now I will slow my pace a
bit more even to the
crawl of a turtle
along the side of a country road lost looking for its
way back home but
perfectly content in its journeying. No
homesickness
in the
turtle. No fear because of the
biological gift of a suit of
armour. And I feel my own protections secret shields
that envelope me
that I must
address and so I set the book beside me on old Mary
Vineyard=92s sofa
and move my mind to sweet things in the present and the
future.
The sweet things
border on the edges of Henry Miller and Anais Nin but
hopefully i'll
not be too distracted by the sweet wonders to prevent me
from trudging
through this June 16 adventure finding my way back from
the universal to
the particular and from there ... from there ... ah
shit, i ain't
gonna try and look that far ahead.
shalom,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:03:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message
dated 97-07-16 05:37:38 EDT, you write:
<< .
>Kaufmann) writes:
>
><< Hello, >>
Lusha. How did
Bob feel about being a beat? I put him up there at Corso
status, though
willing to be on the front lines more. Took unecessay
beat-ings from
the cops. I knew him most in his silent
days, so we spent
most of the time
on the Muni just looking out the windows.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:07:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a message
dated 97-07-16 06:15:56 EDT, you write:
<< Jack was
no sexual threat to Neal.
> >>
I think James is
correct on this. There might be spats, yes. And I think Neal
wd have felt a
little betrayed in prison where his mind had time to play on
him, but money
would be the larger concern in the long run.
Anyway that's how
I'd see it. Maybe ask Carolyn?
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:53:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Shannon L. Stephens"
<shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shannon L. Stephens"
<shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970715230124.24116B-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 15 Jul
1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> On Wed, 16
Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> > In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> >
> >
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
> > presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> > time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
> > to find mention of her. >>
> >
> > Oh fer
Chrissake!
> > C.
Plymell
>
> dear
plymell:
> >
> what the
hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> there and
how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> response
brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
> questings.
>
> if you are
not --any of you--interested in responding in some
> constructive
way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
> snotty repost
from deep left field!!!!
>
> steve
>
> (who is, in
all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>
mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
> message to
the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
> they will
talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
> about";
i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
> work for
her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
> for views
and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> snotty
snit.)
>
> s.s.
>
Lusha...
All I know is
that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right
time, in the
right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:
any concerns you
have about this list and the responses to your question
is this...Persist
and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to
be sheepish...Get
in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his
students to feel
safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,
your questions
will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.
I've lurked this
list for a long time. There is personality and insight
galore. I think
people get a little label weary... at least I do.
Creating a beat
or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my
stomach to do a
turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you
will have to
facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you
so long and I
guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever
cultivate is the
persistance of your own mind.
-Shannon (in
Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:10:18 -0400
Reply-To: sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
"Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SOL.3.91.970716093756.12636V-100000@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I think what
Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
ALTHOUGH A GREAT
SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
MATTER! Calm down, people! *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
On Wed, 16 Jul
1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:
> On Tue, 15
Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> > On Wed,
16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >
> > > In
a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > >
> > >
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> >
> texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
> >
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> >
> time restraint has made it
difficult to read all of the poems and novels
> >
> to find mention of her. >>
> > >
> > > Oh
fer Chrissake!
> > > C.
Plymell
> >
> > dear
plymell:
> > >
> > what
the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i
was
> > there
and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> >
response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a
fair
> > enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
> >
questings.
> >
> > if you
are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
> >
constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > snotty
repost from deep left field!!!!
> >
> > steve
> >
> > (who
is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
> >
mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > message
to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
> > they
will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
> >
about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
> > work
for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
> > for
views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > snotty
snit.)
> >
> > s.s.
> >
>
> Lusha...
>
> All I know
is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right
> time, in the
right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:
> any concerns
you have about this list and the responses to your question
> is
this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to
> be
sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his
> students to
feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,
> your
questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.
> I've lurked
this list for a long time. There is personality and insight
> galore. I
think people get a little label weary... at least I do.
> Creating a
beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my
> stomach to
do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you
> will have to
facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you
> so long and
I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever
> cultivate is
the persistance of your own mind.
>
> -Shannon (in
Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
<<general
musings this morning>>
you write:
> Ok so I
can't write words anymore. I'll go to China.
and will you
knock your sconce against the wall there?
that great wall.
the wall all runners dream about?
and let me
add: in rainbows. Chopped so much wood last night, the past
few nights, that
I should be kept warm this summer. In
deed. If I
didn't burn and
boil all the water out of my house. late
at night.
"Don't smoke
in bed" they say. and it's
true. this body is cinder for
thought and I
fear the flame.
email would have
been a send for the beats, I imagine.
Would they have
felt the need to
always travel the roads? Was watching
this Marilyn
Monroe, Clark
Gable movie last night on teaV. no
sound, just the black
and white images
on my 21 inch screen. The camera is
looking. always
looking. at Marilyn.
at Gable looking at Marilyn.
bodies in motion.
"[...] from
an historical conjuncture, from the mouth of another,
wherein the spirt
without knowledge is dumb; but if the spirit opens to
him the
signature, then he understands the speech of another; and
further, he
understands how the spirit has manifested and revealed
itself (out of
the essence through the principal) in the sound of the
voice." == (Boehme, _The signature of all things_)
-=-=-
there's a book by
Thomas Calvino I've only heard about.
deals with the
historical city
of Venice, Italy. The seven or so
chapters give
different views
of the same city. Written from different
perspectives.
The multifaceted
nature of things, I guess is the point.
but what would
the signature of God be? what lies
behind the veil?
what is Kerouac
after with his recordings of Neal. From
Diane's
excellent
elucidations, I wonder. [[need to look at Ginsberg's photos
more.
tied up in nots,
due process
"the map is
not the territory" babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:23:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message
dated 97-07-16 06:24:30 EDT, you write:
<< The last
time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the
City Lights bookstore in S.F., tying up her
arm for a hot
shot of horse from a syringe dangling from her
purse.
Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I that
night, but she didn't seem to give a shit. She had a date
to meet Lenny Bruce in front of City
Lights. So who shows
up?
Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert Goldman!
Strange Fruit, don't you think?
>>
That's a great
story. He always knew when. Her song about Monday was pulled
from radio
broadcasts because it was to have been causing too many suicides.
i can't remember
the title. i don't think it was Strang Fruit.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:51:05 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: carolyn...
i read off the
road not too long ago...what a book!
very moving! and in
the liner notes i
saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat." So I went
on a mad search
through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't
seem to be. but there apparently was a movie made based
on the book...
anyway, so i got
the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for
me, found out the
full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"
(interesting,
Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....)
It'll probably take a
couple of months
for me to get this book in my hands, though.
From what I
understand, this
is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but
written before
Off the Road. So if she'd already
written one, why'd she
write another
account of the story? anyone know? anyone here read this
book? I know, "read the book yourself &
you'll figure it out yourself..."
but it's gonna be
a few months before I get the book (and if it's from 1976
& can't be
found in the library anymore I highly doubt the neighborhood
bookstore will
have it). I just want other people's
opinions on the work,
if anyone has
any....kind of wanting to go into the movie theatre with a
vague notion
about the movie on the screen...
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:13:16 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: carolyn...
Comments: To:
"Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<199707161951.PAA07783@kanga.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
diane
from what i
understand _heartbeat_ is simply an earlier draft of _off the
road_. it was
turned into a movie (starring nick nolte as neal, believe it
or not...) and
she then built & improved upon the book, beefing it up and
renaming it _off
the road_. i dont know if you really HAVE to seek it out
if you've read
_off the road_. can anyone else shine light on this?
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:51:13 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Heart Beat
Heart Beat was a
greatly abridged or excerpted version of Carolyn's
later biography. If memory serves me well she wasn't very
pleased with
it. It may have had something to do with the
production of the movie but
I couldn't be
sure of that without doing a little research.
If you've
read Off the
Road, I think it would be a waste of time to read "Heart
Beat" except
as historical curiosity or to study the text in relation to
the final version
which I agree is a model work of its kind.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:10:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In a message
dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
<< at Gable looking at Marilyn >>
Chopping wood
warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
freeze. Much
easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
portent. All the
actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
that they had
hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
the roping
scenes.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:31:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Moccasins
just picked up
"Last of the Moccasins" at Borders Books...looking forward to
this with great
relish!!
on the way to the
bookstore, i passed Warho's red painting of James Dean in a
gallery
window. anyone know the painting, and if
so what the Chinese
characters mean?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:34:20 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: t-shirts
Content-Type:
text
Jeffrey,
I received my
t-shirts yesterday, a day after Michael Nally's e-mail post
to the beat-l,
and I agree with him.
I have had
business dealings with you since the time of your very first
catalog, so I am
more familiar than most people with the quality and
integrity of your
enterprise. The printing on the shirt is certainly less
than ideal, but I
cannot in all conscience allow you to absorb the costs
for my order.
I appreciate the
honesty and rare business morality in offering the shirts
for free and in
assuming the burden yourself.
One of the
striking qualities of the beat-l group is its sense of community
(with a few
glaring exceptions) and mutual support, reminiscent for me of
the late '60s.
Your original role in this project was non-profit; from my
perspective, I
cannot contribute to the venture's turning into a loss for
you.
Therefore, I am
returning your refund check to you. Thanks though for the
gesture.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
7/16/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:52:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message
dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:
<< I think
what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR,
OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
MATTER!
Calm down, people! *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens
wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a.
Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 97-07-15
20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > >
> > > << Hello, I had a
question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > >
texts. I am taking summer course
on the Beat greats and we are doing
a
> > >
presentation on Women beats. I
choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately
the
> > >
time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and
novels
> > >
to find mention of her. >>
> > >
> > > Oh fer Chrissake!
> > > C. Plymell
> >
> > dear plymell:
> > >
> > what the hell does "oh fer
chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> > there and how dare some mere student
ask such a question"? yer goofy
> > response brings up a "oh for
chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> > enough question. this list is, among
other things, for such questions
and
> > questings.
> >
> > if you are not --any of
you--interested in responding in some
> > constructive way to her question,
just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > snotty repost from deep left
field!!!!
> >
> > steve
> >
> > (who is, in all forthrightness,
lusha's professor in the course she
> > mentions---and i feel guilty about
having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > message to the beat-l list--they are
kind and helpful for the most part;
> > they will talk with you and care
about some of the same things you care
> > about"; i, for one, do not see
her question as asking someone to do her
> > work for her; she has been
interested enough to go out here on the list
> > for views and news and knowledge;
don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > snotty snit.)
> >
> > s.s.
> >
>
> Lusha... >>
Thanks Sahra,
Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob
Kaufman wd have
known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the
dastardly dated
language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items
were on the list
of what first went through my head.
But I hope I'm a
Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and
hopfully provided
some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I
would work the beat association into the thesis
from the beat's point of
view, rather than to lump everything together for
future readers. Seems to
be enough of
that. Though I really don't know of many physical time-space
connections(no
pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I
take from anthor
list member's story. There were very few heavy users among
the beats, and
any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or
anectodal at
best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be
wrong, though.
This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh
well.
Charley Falling
Off Horse (my tribal name)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970716050158.1aeff820@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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> >
> Listen, Gore
Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
> and had been
lovers, at least at times. isn't it
possible
>
homosexuality played a role in their rift?
>
> Mike Rice
>
mrice@centuryinter.net
Cassady and
*Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to
Cassady (hell he
wrote two books about him!) But he was
hetero in the
extreme from what
I've read.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:31:14 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970716110753_-1158306363@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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It is also worth
pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately
interefered with
Jack's relationships with his beat friends.
She
routinely opened
and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and
apparently took
to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she
thought was
trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal
for similar
reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from
reading the
letters)
It is sad but
Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less
completely and
filter much of what he knew of his old friends.
She
probably would
have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to
not communicate
with them.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:28:25 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re:
Moccasins
MIME-Version: 1.0
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the last words of
Charles Plymell's autobiography (from the net):
"Tomorrow I have to go to the
unemployment office."
very nice
CP. very nice. Filled in a lot of the blanks and gave a nice
perspective. Am battling my own sycophant tendancies, by
writing this.
Just wanted to
publically say, "thanx" for writing all that down. all
that down.
the words of
Jello Biafra, whom I curse and praise, come to mind:
"if you love your fun, die for
it!" (from the song _Lard_)
oh, I never wanna
be a poet, Douglas
"the map is
not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:32:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paterson Falls and Bohemian Rises
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Well, I'd have to say I agree and
disagree. A haiku is sort of like a
spontaneous
orgasm, in that it is quick, unprompted, out of nowhere. You
know, when you're
having a really good dream... *ahem* *grin*
> Something such as Howl is like excellent
sex, the whole show, naked,
mirrors on the
ceiling, the passion building and building to the poit of
release.
> Then there's works such as Mexico City
Blues.... an all-night lovemaking
session involving
multiple orgasms.........
> Yours in depravity,
> Sara
>
>
>
>At 02:29 PM
7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Pete
wrote:
>>> The
second thing spun off from the first and doesn't pertain to posts.
>>> It's
about poetry in general and about what I never liked about the
>>>
Beats in general. If people can come here and dis my gods, well dammit
>>> I'm
gonna give it back. I know there aren't any absolutes, but do others
>>> know
that?
>>
>>I may be
one of those who dissed your gods (Ezra?) and I don't
>>mind you
giving it back. This is a pretty good paragraph:
>>
>>> >
>I realize this goes against the values of some Beat poets and their
>>> >
>sycophants. Personally, I never went for the masturbatory approach to
>>> >
>writing. Seems to mistake the product with the process, IMO. Sex isn't
>>> >
>about cumming, it's about fucking; and writing isn't an explosion of
>>> >
>words in a dionysian frenzy, it's all the thoughts around arranging
>>> >
>those words, and living those ideas, making the song, singing it. Not
>>> >
>the record, but the song. And even if masturbation is a good metaphor,
>>> >
>then I say the poem is not the cum but the rubbing.
>>
>>And I
don't feel compelled to either agree or disagree. You made
>>your
point and I hear you. I'd say the flip
side is this: spontaneous
>>writing
is an attempt to capture the joy of writing inside the piece
>>itself. And joy is what is too often missing in the
snootier,
>>stricter,
more academic writing of our times. Beat
writing may
>>be cheap
sex, but at least they got the joint jumpin' ... more
>>than I
can say for Ezra ...
>>
>>And I
hope we can all feel free to dis each other's gods as much
>>as we
want -- let's just not start dissing each other. It's a
>>big
difference.
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------
>> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>>
>> Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
>> (the beat literature web site)
>>
>>
Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
>> (my fantasy folk-rock album)
>>
>> ###################################
>>
>> "Tie yourself to a tree with
roots"
>> -- Bob Dylan
>>-----------------------------------------------------
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:28:21 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Johnson or SHIT ?? Charley is ...............
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you R a Johnson !
! !
The Committee
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:
>
> << I
think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
> ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A
POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
> MATTER!
Calm down, people! *grin*
>
> Sara Feustle
>
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens
wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a.
Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> > >
> > > > In a message dated 97-07-15
20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > > >
> > > > << Hello, I had a
question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > > > texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing
> a
> > > > presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately
> the
> > > > time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and
> novels
> > > > to find mention of her. >>
> > > >
> > > > Oh fer Chrissake!
> > > > C. Plymell
> > >
> > > dear plymell:
> > > >
> > > what the hell does "oh fer
chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> > > there and how dare some mere
student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> > > response brings up a "oh for
chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> > > enough question. this list is,
among other things, for such questions
> and
> > > questings.
> > >
> > > if you are not --any of
you--interested in responding in some
> > > constructive way to her question,
just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > > snotty repost from deep left
field!!!!
> > >
> > > steve
> > >
> > > (who is, in all forthrightness,
lusha's professor in the course she
> > > mentions---and i feel guilty about
having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > > message to the beat-l list--they
are kind and helpful for the most part;
> > > they will talk with you and care
about some of the same things you care
> > > about"; i, for one, do not see
her question as asking someone to do her
> > > work for her; she has been
interested enough to go out here on the list
> > > for views and news and knowledge;
don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > > snotty snit.)
> > >
> > > s.s.
> > >
> >
> > Lusha... >>
> Thanks
Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob
> Kaufman wd
have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the
> dastardly
dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items
> were on the
list of what first went through my head.
> But I hope
I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and
> hopfully
provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I
> would work the beat association into the thesis
from the beat's point of
> view, rather than to lump everything together for
future readers. Seems to
> be enough of
that. Though I really don't know of many physical time-space
>
connections(no pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I
> take from
anthor list member's story. There
were very few heavy users among
> the beats,
and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or
> anectodal at
best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be
> wrong,
though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh
> well.
> Charley
Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:43:13 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: jk's character portrayl
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the recent thread
of neal not liking the way that jack described him
in on the road,
made me think that how did the other m.c. in jack's
books like the
way they were described? in particular i would like to
know what gary
synder thought of japhy ryder and the dharma bums.
thanx~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:56:57 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
In-Reply-To: <33CD6BA1.995ECD76@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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Who is this
source? someone who knew Jack? I think if Jack had had any
major gay
affairs, he'd have writtena bout them because he wrote about
almost every major
experience he had in his life.
Ginsberg has been
quoted has saying that Jack was not gay or bi, but that
when they were
young and had just met, they *experimented* a little with
oral sex. I dont think this makes Jack gay or bi, guess
it depends on
interpretation.
Although if Jack
*was* privately gay or bi, it might explain his outright
homophobia
concerning Allen...whom he constantly ragged upon about his
homosexuality.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:51:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a message
dated 97-07-16 19:07:06 EDT, you write:
<< Neal
ever dressed formally
enough to actually don spats.
>>
I haven't seen
the post yet. The dandiest I saw Neal was when he and Peter
Angel came to my
collage show at the Batman gallery on Filmore, SF. They had
been to the
Goldwater ' 64 convention at the cow palace and were wearing
straw hat jackets
and canes. Looked and acted like yankee doodle dandies.
Neal had no
wardrobe, belongings in a cardbord box.
Tapes of his past lives
from his meduim
in Palo Alto, belts, a change of levis, white T-shirt, jocky
shorts, socks,
penny loafers and an old sports coat. I tink this simplicity
was because he
didn't want to waste time deciding what to wear. I was just
the opposite,
leading him to say I had a problem with time since i would have
to fuss over what
to wear. Oh yeah, his railroad pocket watch and a grocery
back of weed, a
shoe box for cleaning the weed and a pocket full of pills.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:15:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
Are you going to
read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with
having to read
him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read
literary genius.
That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't
understand. Well
anyway , I'm glad my wife's relative
published him-- even
without the NEA
or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a few other
scraped up a
collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime
at an Eng, Dept staff
meeting that Joyce ruined American
literature. The
meeting had
become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a
decade or two. I
like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,
politics, etc,
sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,
though for those
who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a
dinner when Joyce
and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:23 -0400
Reply-To: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
CVEditions@aol.com
In-Reply-To:
<970716002007_410349889@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Point
taken...thanks.
Tracy
On Wed, 16 Jul
1997 CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> In a message
dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:
>
> << and
perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
> carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement
over money?
>
> Tracy >>
> I'd guess
that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,
> Unless, of
course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.
> C Plymell
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:56 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: President's Sychophant Committe on
NEA Funding
As they say down
in Arkansaw..
"makes my
ass wanna dip snuff"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Moccasins and Joyce
Comments: To:
CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Are you
going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had
> with
> having to
read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to
> read
> literary
genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I
> can't
> understand.
Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's
relative published him--
> even
> without the
NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a
> few other
> scraped up a
collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd
> onetime
> at an Eng,
Dept staff meeting that Joyce ruined
American literature.
> The
> meeting had
become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text
> for a
> decade or
two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal
> religion,
> politics,
etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic
> genius,
> though for
those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that
> at a
> dinner when
Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each
> other.
> CP
Charles:
I just went down
to the local library and checked out Ulysess.
I own,
but never really
read Portrait of an Artist. Good
question?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Robert Hass
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While in the
library, I was looking through the Poetry section and saw
some books by Robert
Hass. A good friend of mine who built my
house is
named Robert
Hass. So, I checked out Praise and Sun
Under Wood. I
might even read
them. Does anyone care to make a comment
about Hass'
work either on
line or back channel?
Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:30:19 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Moccasins & Ulysses
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> Are you going
to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with
> having to
read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read
> literary
genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't
> understand.
Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's
relative published him-- even
> without the
NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a few other
> scraped up a
collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime
> at an Eng,
Dept staff meeting that Joyce ruined
American literature. The
> meeting had
become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a
> decade or
two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,
> politics,
etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,
> though for
those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a
> dinner when
Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
> CP
Imagine it was a
pretty loud conversation between those two silent men.
I am begining
Joyce's Ulysses. July 16 seemed like a
good day to begin
a book about June
16.
I sat on the
crapper and read along until something about a jesuit
injection turned
my head sideways, twisted me upside down, and burroughs
shook the shit
out of me.
After i recovered
i shaved and showered and headed to the filling
station where i
started again and made it all the way to the old Woman's
entrance where i
had a vision of Gaia that swallowed me whole.
Tomorrow is
another day
and so i will
once again brave the first chapter skimming up to the
entrance of the
old Woman and moving forward like a blind mule on a
hillbilly holler.
Luckily i have a
wonderful tour guide for the journey in Diane Carter
and many
bodyguards including Doug and Sherri and it sounds as if Bentz
is leaning
towards this book as well.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:45:14 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law
Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Thomas Wolfe and Kerouac and VOC
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A week or so ago,
I pointed out in the food scene where Kerouac
acknowledeged
that his work was derivative of Thomas Wolfe by throwing
Of Time and the
River into the middle of the food sequences.
I know
that one of
Wolfe's most famous pieces is the description of
Thanksgiving
dinner in his Mother's boarding house. I
think it is in
Look Homeward
Angel thought.
I kinda thought
that this tacit acknowledgement of Wolfe would have
drawn some
comments. But it did not. So, I went down to the library
(as you all know
from the last two posts) and checked out Of Time and
the River. I did find one passage that struck me as
being a point of
reference:
>From Page 357
of Charles Scribner's Sons, 1935 (BTW, this version is 912
pages long)
"What would you like to eat?"
she now says meditatively. "How about a
nice thick
steak," she said juicily, as she winked at him. "I've got
the whole half of
a fried chicken left over from last night, that you
can have if you
come over!--Now it's up to you!" she cried out again in
that almost hard
challenging tone, as if he had shown signs of
unwillingness or
refusal. "I'm not going to urge
you, but you're
welcome to it if
you want to come.--How about a big dish of string
beans--some
mashed potatoes--some steamed corn, and asparagus! How'd
you like some big
wonderful sliced tomatoes with mayonnaise?--I've got a
big peach and
apple cobbler in the oven--do you think that'd go good
smoking hot with
a piece of butter and a hunk of American cheese?" she
said, winking at
him and smacking her lips comically. "Would that hit
the spot?
Hey?" she said, prodding him in the ribs with her big stiff
fingers and then
saying in a hoarse, burlesque, and nasal tone, in
extravagant
imitation of a girl they knew who had gone to New York, and
had come back
talking with the knowing, cock-sure nasal toneof the New
Yorker.
"Ah fine boys!" Helen said in
this burlesque tone. "Fine! Just like
they give you in
New York!" she said. Then turning
away indifferently,
she went down the
steps , and across the walk towards her husband's car,
calling back in
an almost hard and agressive tone:
"Well you can do exactly as you
like! No one is going to urge you to
come if you don't
want to!"
It seems to me
that the passage in VoC on page 10 echos this and the
theme of Jack and
Thomas of being manipulated.
Anyway, I know
there is more of Of Time and the River in VoC, and I
think it is in
large part the inspiration of VoC. But,
I may be alone
here, as I may
have been one of the few willing to read all 912 pages of
Of Time and the
River.
Does anyone else
have a comment on this connection?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:59:36 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
In-Reply-To:
<970716221304_1048044493@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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At 7:15 PM -0700
7/16/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I read or
heard one time that at a
> dinner when
Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
don't know
Beckett that well. but maybe they met
later, after the dinner,
for a little late
night swimmin? They took off all their
clothes, jumped
in the river and
let the sound of distant heart beats
. . .
reach
their eyeballs.
read Neal
Cassidy's "letter to Jack Kerouac, September 10, 1950" tonight.
very good. lots of eyeballs. other writers that mess with da balls:
patti smith and
tom verlaine (in _the night_).
Artaud? Bruneul. Dali.
oh, lots of
writers. Man Ray and his tick tock of
metric destruction (the
cutout eye of his
lover).
still thinking
about the relationship of seeing to hearing.
Maybe people
like Joyce and
Beckett realize that small talk is so useless.
Maybe a few
chosen glances,
or silent approvals was enough for them to <<speak with one
another??
> CP = central
pacific
dextrous pervert
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let
the man come thru let the man
come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:22:48 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: carolyn...
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Carolyn C isn't
crazy about Heart Beat and even less about the movie
(which is
awful). Heart Beat was basically the
more sensational parts
culled out of
what she was doing in "Off the Road."
I was at a
screening of the
movie in Eugene that Kesey and Babbs walked out of
after about five
minutes. Sissy Spacek's heart was in the
right place,
and Nolte might
have made a decent Neal, but it didn't happen.
James Stauffer
Diane M. Homza
wrote:
>
> i read off
the road not too long ago...what a book!
very moving! and in
> the liner
notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat." So I went
> on a mad
search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't
> seem to
be. but there apparently was a movie
made based on the book...
>
> anyway, so i
got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for
> me, found
out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"
>
(interesting, Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....) It'll probably take a
> couple of
months for me to get this book in my hands, though. From what I
> understand,
this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but
> written
before Off the Road. So if she'd already
written one, why'd she
> write
another account of the story? anyone know?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:27:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
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Charles,
Thanks for the
memories. "Misfits" is such a
great movie. Parts of it
were filmed on my
ex-wife's uncles ranch. Last movie for
Gable,
Marilyn, and
Monty Clift. Great Arthur Miller
screenplay and you can do
worse than John
Huston as a director. Some wonderful
magnatism there.
Can't imagine
modern Hollywood doing a movie with such wonderfully
broken down
stars, Clift falling apart in front of your eyes, Marilyn
heavy and
drugged, but radiant. If the young un's
want to get a feel
for Neal and
Jack's world that is not a bad place to start.
James Stauffer
Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message
dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< at Gable looking at Marilyn
>>
> Chopping
wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
> freeze. Much
easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
> portent. All
the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
> that they
had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
> the roping
scenes.
> CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:04:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
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> Pamela Beach
Plymell wrote:
> >
> > Are you
going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had
> >with
> > having
to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to
> > read
> >
literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science
> >I
> > can't
> >
understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's
relative published
> >him--
> > even
> > without
the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a
> >few
> >other
> > scraped
up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd
> > onetime
> > at an
Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce
ruined American literature.
> > The
> > meeting
had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official"
> >text
> > for a
> > decade
or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal
> >
religion,
> >
politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic
> > genius,
> > though
for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that
> > at a
> > dinner
when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each
> > other.
> > CP
> In Richard Ellman's biography of Joyce, he
writes, "Joyce sometimes went
out with Samuel Beckett, of whom he wrote to
his son, 'I think he has
talent,' a compliment in which he rarely
indulged...He made clear to
Beckett his dislike of literary talk. Once when they had listened
silently to a group of intellectuals at a
party, he commented, 'If only
they'd talk about turnips!'"
All of my life I have been compelled to study
James Joyce, I can't
leave Ulysses or Finnegans Wake alone, might
be some sort of
personality flaw on my part, definitely some
kind of intellectual
addiction; anyway I don't want to turn this
into a beat list discussing
Joyce, so for anyone who wants to read
Ulysses, with the help of me as a
guide and the comradeship of some fellow
beat-list members, backchannel
me. We
are on Chapter one this week and moving forward at a snail's
pace.
Everyone still has to finish VOC as well.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:13:08 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
******************************************************************************
********************
could some one
please help me out here? i am very
curious to figure out the
whole sexual
relations between jack, neal, and allen...
it is obviously
quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
relationship.
but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have
homosexual
relations with
jack?
if not, how much did jack
know about neal and allen?
anyone who knows
anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
satisfy my
curiousity, darlin's,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:15:58 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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Jenn Fedor wrote:
>
>
******************************************************************************
>
********************
> could some
one please help me out here? i am very
curious to figure out the
> whole sexual
relations between jack, neal, and allen...
>
> it is
obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
>
relationship.
>
> but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have
homosexual
> relations
with jack?
> if not, how much did jack
know about neal and allen?
> anyone who
knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
>
> satisfy my
curiousity, darlin's,
>
> jenn
To all on this
thread,
i'm not certain
what it is precisely, but something about this thread
makes my spine
tingle a bit.
i've never been
much of one for soap operatic visions and this current
string of who
fucked who(m?) in whose bathroom with who watching seems
...............
at least none of my fucking business.
perhaps it is the
puritanical notions still implanted in those from the
land where Ike
still rules our country and we pledge to the flag in the
morning on our
way to the filling station - but at least out here on the
prairie such
matters of intimacy seem something that be left sleeping
like the dogs.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:36 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: book spree
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Went on a net
shopping spree a few weeks ago and the books are finally
starting to
arrive -- got a bunch of choice stuff (more than i can afford,
for sure) and i'm
totally thrilled:
_The Joyous
Cosmology_, Alan Watts. Been looking for this book for _years_,
and I find 2 book
dealers with good copies under $10! I bought both. Worth
it for the
psychedelic b/w photos inside, but I suspect that hearing Watts
talk about his
trips is going to be interesting too.
_Painting &
Guns_ by William S. Burroughs; _Auto Biography_ by Robert
Creely. 2 nice
Hanuman books, not bad for $1.99 each even if the covers are
worn. Read WSB's
(actually I bought these in May, but still) and it's full
of lotsa sharp
writing.
_Natural Enemies:
Youth and the Clash of Generations_. A nice hardbound
book of short
pieces on that counter-culture thing by all our favorites,
including Allen
& Louis Ginsberg, Lionel Trilling, Norman Podhoretz, Henry
Miller, McLuhan,
Fuller, Eisenhower & Kennedy, etc.
_Ideas and
Integrities_, _Earth Inc._, Buckminster Fuller. The
to-be-expected
high-output comprehensive essays.
_First Blues:
Rags Ballads & Harmonium Songs 1971-74_, Ginsberg.
Autographed. Wow,
I've been looking for a copy of this sucker since '93 and
didn't expect to
get a signed one, but I did...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:32:41 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PS...
John:
My Burroughs
visit was not too private to share, I just haven't gotten around
to completely
recounting it, and all the circumstances that led up to it.
The friend with whom I traveled to Lawrence
and visited WSB has been
collaborating
with me on a story of this milestone adventure, but it's
progressing very
slowly in fits and starts, as we talk to and fax each other
to and from Ann
Arbor, MI where I live and Philadelphia.
I have related some
of the events in
a sporadic, fragmentary way through some posts on the list,
you may have run
into some of them. The lengthiest have
been to Maya Gorton,
who has recently
unsubscribed, and were sent only to her rather than to the
list as a
whole. Anyway, your message is another
toggle to me to get going
and fully recount
this experience for posterity. My
participation in this
List is turning
out to be a great writing exercise for me, after a lifetime
of only
occasional and painfully produced works, there has been a steady flow
since I signed on
a few months ago, easily and without the self-consciousness
of
"writing" where I feel the Giants looking over my shoulder as I stare
at
the blank
page/screen. After working out this way,
I'm hoping that my skills
and stamina will
reach a point where I can tackle such projects as the WSB
story. My goal is to write installments and send
them regularly to the whole
list until the
story is told. Parallel with that and as
material from which
to extract will
be the continued collaborative effort, which may spill over
from a factual,
straightforward approach and qualify as a Beat/Gonzo piece in
its own
right. Just writing at length about what
I''m GOING to do and not
quite getting
around to it, expending the energy I should be using to
accomplish it on
describing its difficulty, is I think a time-honored method
and part of the
process itself.
As for THE BLACK
RIDER, I attended its premiere in the spring of 1990 in
Hamburg,
Germany. The friend who accompanied me
to the WSB visit and his
wife were living
there at the time, and this episode was part of a fairly
long trip through
various parts of Europe (yet another potential story).
There were rumors of an appearance by WSB, but
we never spotted him. From
what I recall,
the production was partly in English and partly in German.
Despite my hosts' attempts to translate for
me, I could not completely
understand what
was going on, and so my impression of it is compromised by
the distance in
time and the partial language barrier. I
remember thinking
that it was a
heavy-handed Teutonic fable, complete with hunters in the
forest, maidens, etc.,
put through a post-modern avant-garde wringer by
Burroughs, Waits
and Wilson. The sets and costumes were
remeniscent of the
German
Expressionist style. Burroughs' voice
came as a recording from
offstage,
especially in the first act. The statement
that still resonates
the most with me
is when he says "the first shot is always free" in his
not-quite-imitatable
world-weary drawl. I enjoyed and got a
laugh out of
WSB's application
of one of his maxims, distilled from junkys' street life,
to actual bullets
and guns, an ominous foreshadowing of the Mephistopholian
bargain that the
protagonist makes leading to his and others' doom. WSB's
fetish for and
historic misadventures with guns as much as syringes further
deepened the
resonance of this statement. Although
his direct participation
in the production
was very brief and occasional, his spirit seemed to be an
ingredient within
and behind the scenes of the whole production.
So, with
the limitations
I've cited above, my opinion is that it was interesting (how
could it not be
with the involvement of these artists, especially WSB?), but
not particularly
profound or riveting. Even just a touch
of Burroughsian
schtick greatly
spiced it up. I acquired the CD when it
was released, and
enjoyed the
"bones" piece sung/narrated by WSB.
I've never been much of a
Tom Waits fan
despite his being considered something of a neo-Beat figure, my
exposure to him
is limited and I'm not motivated to increase it now. Do you
think it would be
worth it?
At the beginning
of our visit, when I was in a state of almost speechless
adrenal trauma,
my friend mentioned that we had seen the premiere, as an
ice-breaker. WSB's response was: "I think Hamburg is the nicest city in
Germany, don't
you agree?", without commenting on the production itself or
its importance,
if any, to him. We both unanimously and
enthusiastically
agreed with his
assessment of Hamburg. There I go again,
another fragment.
It must be very
fun and interesting to teach a Beat course.
Do you have any
other poems or
other writings such as the one you posted that led to our
first
corresponding? What are your favorite
works, and what would you
suggest as the
subject of an ongoing discussion, like the one going on
concerning Kerouac's
VISIONS OF CODY? Again, I hope you're
finding this List
worthwhile to be
involved in, as I am.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:45:08 EDT
Reply-To: Bill
Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Homosexuality
I wouldn't say
that Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual.
Seems to me
that they were
both heterosexual guys who experimented occasionally with
homosexuality. For Cassady, this might have been a result of
his
spending his adolescence in reform schools. Unlike Ginsberg, though,
Cassady and
Kerouac were primarily drawn to women. I
don't think I'd
refer to Cassady
and Ginsberg as "lovers," either, though Ginsberg
certainly can be
said to have loved Cassady in the sense that term
implies. I doubt, however, that Cassady ever felt that
kind of love.
Basically, Cassady,
I think, wanted to be Allen's friend. He
saw Allen
as a mentor,
looked up to him, and wanted to please him.
If that meant
sex once in a
while, that was okay, at least early on in their
friendship. All of this talk about whether someone is
heterosexual or
homosexual
doesn't mean very much in the end but it is interesting if
merely as
gossip. Martin Duberman's play
"Visions of Kerouac" makes a
plausible case
for Kerouac being a repressed homosexual.
The idea is
that Kerouac's
repression of his homosexuality caused a lot of his pain.
It's not an idea
I buy but I have to admit Duberman makes an
interesting case.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:04:37 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: cuputs
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Can we talk about
cut-ups? I want to make sure that I understand the
technique.
You take a work,
any work, that is written on paper. slice it down the
middle.
reassemble the work so that the words and phrases are scrambled, and
retype. new
meanings and hidden thoughts may emerge.
Is this the gist
of the cut-up? I recall reading the story of Bill cutting a
book down the
middle with an axe or similar instrument, reassembling and
there it was...
but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert
words and refine
phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the
paper? (I do know
that what you see will be different every time, just like
tape
transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)
I want to know if
there is a difference between scrambling all of the
_words_ in a text
and scrambling all of its _characters_. I mean, I know
there is a
_difference_ and each method will produce different words and a
different text
(the first will usually contain the same words as the
original text
with the exception of those words split by the cut), but are
both products of
the "cut-up" technique, or does the cut-up require that
the same words
generally be used (thus bringing all words used in the old
text along and
into the new one, all the words and their
meanings/connotactions,
as opposed to all the _characters_)? Or is one
simply going
deeper than another? Discuss.
WHAT I AM GETTING
AT: I have a computer program called "an" that has
potential
literary value in pursuing further studies along this cut-up line.
"an"
takes as its standard input any text -- pick a word, any word. The text
could be a
book-length ASCII text file, or it could be a short word or
phrase. Then an
takes this input and processes it, comparing every possible
permutation of
characters with the system dictionary; every time a set of
valid words (ie
words that appear in the system dictionary) is generated, it
outputs this to
the standard output (screen or file), a line at a time. As
such, an is not
just a simple anagram generator -- as its author originally
intended -- but a
fast, accurate cybernetic cut-up machine. (I am also aware
of the excellent
cutup program at <http://www.bigtable.com/cutup/>. This one
retains words,
and even duplicates them to fill a page (or screen) -- yet
another method.)
The amount of
memory required to generate anagrams is in exponential
relation to the
length of the text, so using an to cut up texts of any
significant
length must be done on a machine with more memory than mine has
(81MB RAM), but I
suppose this is a temporal problem, as the relation to
computing power
and its cost is also behaving exponentially according to
Moore's Law.
Should there be
an interest, I will post results of my findings to the list.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this
information is
email
stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced
under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains;
it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see
<http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:31:59 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
Dear Jenn:
Here's what I
know from my studies of works by and about the Beats re:
"....sexual
relations between Jack, Neal and Allen..." as you asked about in
your post:
Ginsberg was very
infatuated with Neal, his "Adonis of Denver" as he
described him in
HOWL. It was apparently a one-way
street, Neal was
straight. But Neal's great regard for Ginsberg as a
literary mentor/soul
mate, and also,
perhaps, his hustler-exploitive instinct, led him to have sex
with
Ginsberg. Their relations were sporadic
and led to AG's frustration, he
implored NC to
join him in an ongoing relationship, while NC was only
accomodating his
friend without really being into it.
Neal's marriage to
Carolyn only made
matters more tense and frustrating, and in an infamous
episode recounted
in her (highly recommended) memoir OFF THE ROAD, among
other sources,
she discovered AG and her husband having sex together in their
bedroom, and
promptly evicted AG. Immediately in the
wake of this, AG
skulked back to
San Francisco and met Peter Orlovsky, who became his steady
partner through
AG's death. This helped to cool down
AG's essentially
unrequited
obsession for NC. A poignant and very
sad description of one of
the last
encounters between AG and NC is given by AG in one of his poems (I
can't recall the
name of it and don't have access to my collection right now,
I'll look it up
later and get back to you if I find it).
A burned-out, soon
to be dead NC and
AG are in bed together, and AG feels the cold, shaking NC.
I think that AG's obsession for NC, like a
grain of sand that becomes a
pearl, was an
inspiration to AG's creativity even as it caused him pain and
frustration. And as regards creative inspiration, AG
helped NC as much as
anyone, including
Kerouac, was able to, but NC's historic role in the Beat
saga will always
be more as a subject and inspirer of others, especially AG &
JK, than as a
creator in his own right.
As for JK, he was
heterosexual like his alter ego NC, and the two of them
never had a
sexual relationship as far as can be determined. But their
relationship went
far beyond a typical friendship, what some might argue
beyond sex into a
realm of eroticising and mytholigizing that exceeds what
many outright
sexual relationships have stirred. AG
managed to have sex
occasionally in
their early days with JK (he seems to have had his way with
everyone), and
again I think that JK's respect for AG's creative genius and
their affinity
for each other on a soul-to-soul level carried the day. I
once read ( I
can't remember where) an anecdote from near the end of JK's
life that also
shows the whimper coda of a collaboration that had begun with
such a bang, as
with AG and NC above. A drunken,
passed-out JK awoke to find
AG and Peter
Orlovsky blowing him. "What are you
doing, I'm not queer?!" he
asked,
startled. "We just want you to be
happy, Jack", they said as they
looked up from
what they were doing. Nothing could
cheer up poor JK by then.
As to your question of how much JK knew about
AG & NC, I recall from some of
the letters
between JK & AG that JK was aware of it and tried to help AG sort
things out. AG as usual wore his heartache on his sleeve,
and shared it
intensely with JK
and others.
The tangled,
complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat
figures is
fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their
lives and
works. Another important relationship was
that between AG &
William S.
Burroughs, especially WSB's failed attempt to "schlup" (completely
absorb and be
absorbed by) AG in NYC in 1953. But
that's another story, and
not related to
what you directly asked. I hope that you
find this
information
helpful, and keep digging further into the Beats and their
collaborations,
creative and otherwise.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:27:39 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Poem...Poetic Forum
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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haven't written
in a while...can't keep up w/ flood of email...sorry...
thought i'd share
a piece i've been working on, looking for poetic
community
beautiful San Francisco rememberances...can't seem to find the
poets where i
live: deep south louisiana backwoods
isolation...now that i
know there are
great souls to talk to here (Charles, Pamela, Bill, etc.)
maybe i can find
some sense of words words words loving...tell me what you
think:
Nineteen Ninety
Six
And here's how it
went:
Picking up
cigarette rag,
blonde stranger and best friend at
concerts
back to her room for night of drunk
love - kissing laughing losing my
cherry ha ha ha -
we made love while i dreamt of
changing the world and
you dreamt of your
boyfriend
You and him at
Yancey and Sergio's tripping crazy (me drunk),
talking about big brother government
CIA and fixing the world through
machines...
Listening to you
yell and scream and wail about sexism and
how we're men and can't understand you
woman.
First I listen to
you and your first girlfriend lover,
not turned on like I thought I'd be,
angry because I thought you
didn't love me,
angry because you lied to me,
angry because I didn't
understand you.
Then roles
reversed, you listen about my first boyfriend lover,
crying because I didn't wanna tell you,
not hearing me say that I didn't like it,
not hearing me say that I was
sorry I didn't tell you,
not hearing me say that this
was the end of the ride.
Think maybe I'll
be fine in Denton.
Stumbling drunk
up dormitory stairs,
half bottle of tequila in me, sensitive
poet type,
winking at red headed angel,
at IHOP 3AM wondering
"what's wrong with
Josh," almost passing out over
half-smoked cigarettes
coffee cholesterol.
Making love
wine-induced to strangers later to be friends
in room inhabited by Buddha scripture
scrolls and
prophecies by Allen
listening to eastern hymns of
roommate I still don't know.
Handwriting read
to me by modern-day Mexican saint
in hallways of paint & sweat &
marijuana & alcohol
ticketed in park trespassing
1 down, lost to law
2 more down, lost to
paranoia,
damn glad they
didn't find no shit.
Sitting in police station 6AM coming
down from cloud,
coming up with $300 to bail him
out -
brother to my
red-headed angel.
Dancing mad
rhythms at first gay bar with brothers and
crazy girlfriend moving LSD vibrations
of cosmic soul thumping sexy house
beats
wondering where sleep honest
love tonite?
No class, Spanish
not worth it - decide to write instead,
meditate instead, drink instead
mad nights outside dorm yackety
yacking about sex drugs
religion politics ya ya
ya,
parties at maniac houses
flirting still attached -
nope, wait, broke up with
her: so, you wanna go out?
Single rose on
car seat, dinner at fine Italian restaraunt
with an end in a smill...no kiss no
hold hands -
just an angel to be close to, someone
to hold.
closest i've ever
gotten to bear all soul writing...still working...tell me
what you think.
Ryan Stonecipher
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:35:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
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Arthur Nusbaum
wrote:
> The tangled,
complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat
> figures is
fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their
> lives and
works.
> Regards,
>
> Arthur S.
Nusbaum
Just as the
weather changes overnight here in Kansas my mind twists
full-circle. In the event that the interest in the
intimate details is
along the lines
suggested by Arthur here i would think it makes
sigificant sense
to look into the matter.
Where the
voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the
lives of these
folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:37 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: To Derek Beaulieu RE: Dada-cutup connection
Derek:
A belated response
to your post to me re: Dadaist ancestry
of cutups. It
serves me right
for opining on this before having read EVERYTHING by and
about WSB &
his collaborations with Gysin- among the
very few items I
haven't yet read
is THE THIRD MIND, but I own it and will duly get to it and
see if a
reference to dadaist forebears is there.
As soon as I read your
post, I
remembered something else relevant to this issue- In his very early
years (circa age
20, mid-1930's), BG was living in paris and directly
participating in
the Surrealist movement, which really was a movement at that
time and place,
dictated to by its self-appointed leader, Andre Breton,
through his
SURREALIST MANIFESTO and ongoing domination over the movement and
its members. BG was to have contributed to some major
Surrealist exhibit,
but his works
were removed at the insistence of Breton just before it opened,
and I think that
ended BG's official involvement with the Surrealists.
Apparently Breton was very temperamental and
easy to displease, his wrath
also came down on
Dali and others. I've always wondered
why the figures of
such a
free-spirited, innovative movement allowed themselves initially to be
dominated and
politicized by such a prima donna.
I should probably
study him further, he must have had some sinister charisma
that held sway
with people who were themselves such independent mavericks.
Anyway, since the
Dadaists directly preceded and were in many cases the same
people who went
on to become the Surrealists, BG was directly exposed to and
connected with
Dada/Surrealism, and there MUST have therefore been an
influence, direct
or indirect, conscious or not, on the cutups by these
movements, even
if BG referred to the cutups as a discovery brought about by
a "happy accident".
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:05:31 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: To Derek Beaulieu RE: Dada-cutup connection
Comments: To:
Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970717105237_127888456@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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arthur
sure it was a
happy accident - but so much of frottage (rubbings of
texture), collage
(cut&paste) and cut-up is happy accident and
celebration of
the nonscencical and unexpected juxtapositioning of images.
thanks for
reminding me about gysin and the surrealist movemnt. i do
believe that you
are right that he was associated by breton (and co) in
the 20's &
30's (i think) in paris. this i guess would be post dada, early
surrealist (if my
timelist memeory serves). for a great biography on
breton check out
_revolution of the mind_
i think that the arguement that dada
influenced wsb 7 bg is strong
, but where can
it be taken? (ah theres the rub, right?) can its influence
be seen thru-out
wsb's work?collage as a theme as well as a technique for
construction - so
i was thinking: the obsession with the body and
graft,disease,
etc - could it be seen as a sort of "biological cut-up"
reassembling,
recutting - arriving at new conclusions and new reults by
reassembling the
human form?
hmmm
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:25:12 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments: To:
Jenn Fedor <Tread37@aol.com>
In-Reply-To:
<970717011307_-823358633@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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I guess there is
or has been a tendency to want to clean up Jack
Kerouac's image
for public consumption. Jack was a
fringe figure in
society during
his life but predicatably, his writing has outlived him
and his
myth/legend will grow larger as the years go by.
A while back in
this group, it was pointed out that a new book about
Kerouac spoke
bluntly about Jack's drug use. Some in
this group from
Lowell got really
upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american
hometown hero and
they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser.
Jack probably did
have plenty of sex with both sexes, he was promiscious
and
adventurous. He also did heroin and
speed for a number of years.
>From all I've
read about Jack, there was a time in his life where he
wanted to try
everything and do *everything* and go *everywhere* Part of
the beat spirit.
I dont think he
could have been the writer he was had he not been open to
these
experiences. It cana lso be argued
though that maybe he lived too
much too soon,
and wouldnt have died an alchoholic recluse if he felt any
other experiences
were still out there. At any rate, the
question of
Jack's sexuality
is not important anymore. I dont see any
need to dwell
on it.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:29:21 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Post Office
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z red
itt, lyke two
commint aunit, ewe no.
_The Western Lands_ is neckst.
Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer
xists.
James M.
Meye noz
runz. Eye doent. ""
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:32:10 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970717111559.8780A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
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On Thu, 17 Jul
1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> Some in this
group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast
> as this
all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as
> a drug abuser.
And of course
they're ignoring the fact that gross drug abuse has always
been an
all-american hometown activity.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:14:11 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS
<2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: John A. Gregorio
Comments: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi. Me again.
Thadeus from Second Beat. The response from the magazine has
been great,
thanks guys. But there is some confusion about one of the
orders. I need to
get in contact with a Mr. John A. Gregorio to discuss his
order. If John or
anyone who can get in touch with him is reading this,
e-mail me at
<2ndbeat@telapex.com>
Thanks,
Thadeus D'Angelo,
Camellia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:56:02 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: welcome to the ninties, again
MIME-Version: 1.0
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in richards post
awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
said that there
was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
everything, be
everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
inch nails where
at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
everywhere i want
to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
to do something..
that matters!" i will get to less obvious
connection later.
i was talking
with a friend who told me when she was in college, she
took a course
about how the generations generally repeat themselves
every forty years
inwhat they do and in general beliefs and feelings
toward society.
this can be proven true. for example, in the forties
most everyone had
a family and settled down. but not people neal
cassady and some
other members of the post- war generation.
and in the
eighties, again most people did the wife and kids thing,
but some people
did not (your avid skater/ punk rocker). in the
fifties, some
people started a family and some people became beatniks
and embraced
(excuse me for using alduos huxley's title) a brave new
world. and now
you may be thinking that because of the ninties, i may
be wrong. if you
think that in the ninties jack doesn't ever happen
and never will-
look undergroun for the now named "elctronictcia".
this style of
music reminds me of the all-nite jazz shows that jack
and neal went to
even more so because some people goto all-nite
techno music
raves. so all i'm really saying is that we are
experiencing a
renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
stereotypical, i
was not a conscious organism until the late
eighties) does
any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:08 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: ecstatic bunny tracks leading to bleepy
alien music
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hello beetles....
another day,
another twiddle of the thumbs, or perusal of my dated copies
of NME, or etc,
as i wait for the msgs to download from this great list in
the sky, or at
least across it...i scan through half or so, having to do
with one or a
combo of 4 things: Joyce, VOC, the mysterious rift between
kerouac and
cassady, or that person asking about Lady Day...(Hey Sara F,
i'll tell ya,
your post concerning the sex/lit correllations really kicked
me in the tail
though...)
Realised i
haven't posted to this little list for, hm, close to 2 months
now. not very
much like me, i must say. i suppose my motivation, in this
case
lack-there-of, in not posting to the list, has to do mainly with all
the
kerouac-related discussion. Never got into him. Bought a few of his
books and put
them all down, even the infamous 'On The Road'...I suppose i
am strictly a
Burroughs man, save for 'Howl' and 'Kaddish' which i loved,
and were my first
forays into this beat world, along with B.Miles's AG
biography, which
i found in a used bkshop for $2...why do i tell you all
this? i feel like
writing. this breaks maybe a block that's been in place
longer than i
care to admit. I recall B.Gargan's post concerning the
purposes of this
list, but let's just say i left that msg next to an open
window and it
rained. really hard. but just this once...i know, i know,
delete if you
will.
I remember
reading a OneTwo combo of Ulysses and Naked Lunch after a car
accident put me
out of commission the year i was 17. i loved them both,
after not
understanding a single word. for some reason the language in them
showed me there
was more to words than just putting them together to create
scenarios of
death and suicide, some may laugh at the irony of this, but,
loving life as i
didn't, this showed me to love words as i could, their
viral
infliction/infection, the expresssion blessed....
17 was a
melodramatic year for me, it was. i took a pile of canvases
outside one early
morning, around 4 or so, and burned them next to the very
suburban apartment
building in which i shared a unit with my father.
plastic burning
was in my nose for what seemed like days, but was probably
just hours....I
threw away all my paint, didn't talk to people, drew pen
and ink sketches
maybe, but mostly mutilated pics of ppl and things into
collages, around,
about, and for words. i listened to angry music,'songs
about garbage
disposals written by jackhammers' to loosely paraphrase DC...
I wrote one short
story, about love through a sickness physical on one
side, mental on
another, about what the world showed me love to be, which
is probably much
different than what it has shown you all, as it is much
different for all
of us, individually, because that's what i see it, love,
to be, though not
nearly a tender thing for me, individual for all of us in
the end. i could
be wrong. we could all be wrong... but i finished this
piece, and i read
it out loud, at a reading, mostly among friends, and in a
small place, and
i sat down, still holding the printed papers, and as my
ass hit the seat
the thought hit my mind, softly, like a hammer wrapped in
cloth, that i
would never write like that again. not because i couldn't,
but rather
because i wouldn't, because, as someone we all know so well once
said, it was just
too dangerous.
..and i haven't,
that 17yr old day being near 6 years ago...I sit here
jacked into this
computer, listening to the bleepy alien music that i love,
that i create,
that i pretty much eat and breathe;
gives images of droves
of bunnies
hopping across technicolor fields of grass, towards the music,
attracted by
those unseen patterns that only some of us pick up on, the
disembodied
voices, the snatches of songs from other places or times,
etc...staring at
white text field remembering the last time i saw someone
that i had once
dearly loved, she asked me if i could get her ecstasy,
because she had
heard i knew all the dealers.
maybe at this
point i blink back tears. maybe at this point i hit 'send' or
discard'. maybe
at this point i remember i got her the x, putting it in her
palm that secret
way, hoping to myself that it was an acceptable substitute
for the kind that
her and i had shared for five years, and quickly giving
myself a mental
kick for being so fucking stupid/sentimental...
...there are no
words within a specific sphere. that sphere can be a good
or a bad place to
be. me? i haven't figured it out yet...i'll let you know
when i do.
-z
Markup/Graphic
Design Team
Internet Concepts
LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608) 285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:05:07 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
Comments: To:
randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>
In-Reply-To:
<199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 17 Jul
1997, randy royal wrote:
> in richards
post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
> said that
there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
> everything,
be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
> inch nails
where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
> everywhere i
want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
> to do
something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
> connection
later.
yup. a common
theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
addiction
"wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."
> so all i'm
really saying is that we are
> experiencing
a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
>
stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late
> eighties)
does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
yeah agree
totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site
if "indie
rock as renaissance" appeals to you.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:32:08 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
In-Reply-To:
<199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>
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those involved in
underground (so-called, in my opinion) movements are
often reluctant
to show/expose their roots.
at this point,
electronica is the media's machine. to info-ate the masses,
'electronica' was
a descriptive term used to define a style of electronic
music coming
primarily out of the uk and the west coast, characterised by
slow, lazy
breakbeats, bass tones and odd or experimental or hooky
synth lines and
various computer noises etc...minimal sample use, heavily
utilised in the
'chill-out' rooms at raves in the early/mid 90s.
'electronica' is
now the media's catch-all term for anything not
guitar-bass-singer-drum
driven, anything usuing primarily electronic
equipment, a
turntable, what have you...record companies want to make
'electronica' the
next 'grunge'. look at The Prodigy, currently #1 album in
the country...wow
cs are pushin' hard, huh? me, i think it's funny. record
companies, they
don't realise the best 'electronica' is coming out of
bedrooms, put out
on record labels like the one a friend of mine runs out
of his
basement...but this is another discussion, sorry to all i've bored.
what i want to
address is the comparing of the jazz parties to the raves.
although there is
a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
often overlooked
in my opinion), the level of intellect at the old jazz
parties as oppsed
to the raves is drastically different....jazz: you talk,
you listen to the
music, you talk about the music, you talk about
whatever...operative
word: talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the music.
you can't really
talk because the music is too loud. you dance some more.
you 'rave' <-
the use of this word has become somewhat of a joke amongst
those who
actually do.
I love both of
these gatherings. i throw jazz parties and i throw rave
parties, for
different reasons.
cocktail/jazz
parties when i want to get together, talk, discuss, etc with
good friends,
strangers, what-have-you; raves when i want to dance my ass
off to the music
i love while smacked out on e (sometimes), usually with
the same friends
(heh)...there really is no intellectual level to raves,
unless you're up
there djing, or organising, or involved with the show.
otherwise it is
entertainment on an extremely base level...but who knows.
maybe that's all
those jazz parties were to Jack and Neal, so the whole
discussion i've
just had with myself is moot. but hey, it was still fun.
for me, if not
for all 209 of you...heh.
the rennaissance?
yeah sure, it's going on...it started with Kraftwerk (not
solely, but they've
been cited many times as huge influence on electronic
music), and has
been evolving ever since. those of us who make this kind of
music, all kinds
actually, we'll take it further i'm sure...
but i'd like to
see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's
not 50 years
behind anymore, but it sure is back there...
-z
(yeah i lost a
bit a weight since my last post...)
Markup/Graphic
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Internet Concepts
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