=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:21:28 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

In-Reply-To: <199705250034.RAA10619@denmark.it.earthlink.net> from "Gerald

Nicosia" at May 24, 97 05:34:11 pm

Gerald Nicosia writes:

> Attila Gyensis writes:

> "...the financial assistance that I have received from Mr. Sampas

> amounts to a grand total (let me check my calculator) $0, nada, zero, nulla,

> nothing, zip."

> May I suggest, Mr. Gyensis, that you are being a little coy in the

> matter of advertisements that have magically appeared in your magazine,

> DHARMA BEAT?

> In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received

> numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin, Mr. Sampas's publisher. Your

> fall 1995 issue even had TWO full-page ads from Viking. You received a

> half-page ad from Rykodisc for a record that was produced by Jim Sampas.

> You received a full-page ad for BIG SKY MIND, the Buddhist Beat collection

> with which Mr. John Sampas was intimately connected (the editor states: "A

> special debt of gratitude is owed to John Sampas, the Literary Executor of

...

The fact that you would speak like this to Attila Gyenis proves to me

what you're doing wrong.

I've hung out with Attila a few times, and he is one of the sweetest,

gentlest most philosophical and non-greedy people I've ever met.

Furthermore, the one time I discussed you and your activities

with him (a few months ago over some beers after he and I

attended the play "Kerouac" together) he was taking your side,

and telling me about some of your good points. You've gone and

turned another friend into an enemy! As you did with me.

Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve

problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better

serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.

Recently at a LaGuardia Airport taxi stand, I saw a great sign:

"BE POLITE! IT'S NICE TO BE IMPORTANT, BUT IT"S MORE IMPORTANT

TO BE NICE". Please, Gerry Nicosia, start going with the flow

a little more. Estate battles happen. The world survives.

Let's talk about something else. Maybe, to get us off on

a different topic, you could tell us about the Vietnam book

you're writing. I'd really like to hear about it. When do

you expect it will be published?

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:34:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Law suits

In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my

professional reputation.

> Thank you.

> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:45:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jim Carroll & Richard Hell

In a message dated 97-05-23 16:23:28 EDT, you write:

<< We are always seeking suggestions of suitable artists to promote...

Any and all suggestions from the admirable minds of Beat-L would be

appreciated.

Charles Plymell

Pam

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:53:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: chatfield residence <chatfield@VOYAGER.NET>

Subject: hello

hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined because i

am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many of the

people on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question for

research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by,

the "beat generation"?"

if a few kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to me,

or if anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please e-mail me

chatfield@voyager.net

i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people would find

annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

thanks.

--amy jean

"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."

-r.e.m.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:48:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: hello

Hi Amy Jean,

Have you yet had a chance to search the web for references on this

question? I actually mad emy way to the list as a result of searching for

refs to Slim Gaillard, which led me to Jack Kerouac and on to the Beat list.

If you're interested and if you can use it I can send you a Netscape browser

bookmark list with many of the relevant sites.Start with list member Levi

Asher's Lierary Kicks site at

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

The short reply to your question, which others will ably expand on

is that Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs - the core of the

Beat generation writers - were very taken with a guy named Huncke, a small

time crook, junkie, man about town, and occasional writer. He talked

regularly about being and feeling Beat.

They added it to their vocabulary and their friend John Clellon

Holmes (author of "Go") talked to Jack Kerouac about being beat and some of

this material appeared in "Go".

It was Jack who first talked about the Beat Generation and Holmes

credited him with that. first conversations were about 1947; "Go was

published in 1952 ;the New York Times published a short piece about Beat

after Gilbert Milstein, an editor there, noticed the reference to the Beat

Generation in "Go" and asked Holmes to supply an article. [much of this is

from Dennis McNally's "Desolate Angel: Jack Kerouac and the Beat Generation".

************

So your question might need to be rethought, since some might argue that

Jack and a small circle of friends WERE the Beat Generation.... "How did

Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by, the "beat generation"?"

Antoine

Would also recommend folowing web site:

http://www.halcyon.com/colinp/beats.htm

The Beat Generation Archives

And

http://enterzone.berkeley.edu/ez/e2/articles/digaman.html

How Beat Happened by Steve Silberman

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:51:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: hello again

Hi again Amy Jean....

And one more, the John Clellon Holmes article This is the Beat

Generation for the New York Times! available at:

http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/ThisIsBeatGen.html

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:55:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Memory Babe Archive

Dear Friends on the Beat-List: May 24, 1997

I feel it necessary to correct some very misleading information that

Phil Chaput has posted on the Beat-List concerning the MEMORY BABE archive.

He would have you think that the archive has never been closed. For all

intents and purposes, it IS closed, and has been ever since Mr. Sampas went

over there to complain about open access in June, 1995.

It is important that I warn you all, lest you waste your time and

money traveling to Lowell, Massachusetts to make use of this unique and

irreplaceable collection.

HERE'S WHAT YOU'LL BE TOLD WHEN YOU ARRIVE:

You cannot make full use of this collection unless you get

permission from the 300 people Gerald Nicosia interviewed. Never mind that

100 of these people are now dead. You must get permission from the dead

people's heirs.

Where do you start? The university, I was told, has the addresses

of FIVE of these people.

Does that sound like a daunting task? It is more than daunting--it

is AWESOME! I, who created this collection, could not now find all 300

people and their heirs. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Never mind, of course, that all these people consented to be

interviewed for a major biography, knowing full well EVERYTHING THEY SAID

WAS BEING TAPED AND WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR USE IN MY BOOK.

What about the 2,000 xerox Kerouac letters? You can't use those

either, without John Sampas's permission, and he has been known to make

getting his permission a quite difficult process. (Ask Steve Turner, who

wrote ANGELHEADED HIPSTER, if you don't believe me.)

Well, you may say, MR. SAMPAS HAS EVERY RIGHT TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM

READING THOSE 2,000 xerox Kerouac letters. No, he doesn't.

Tomorrow, if I choose, I can read every Kerouac letter at Columbia

University, Stanford University, Bancroft Library (Berkeley), Reed College,

the Newberry Library, and the Humanities Research Center at the University

of Texas, Austin--WITHOUT MR. SAMPAS'S PERMISSION!!!

Surprised? Mr. Sampas has even phoned the University of Texas and

Bancroft Library in Berkeley, to insist that scholars could not see their

Kerouac letters without his permission.

You know what Texas and Bancroft told Mr. Sampas? Sorry, sir, YOU

DO NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT.

If these libraries are breaking the law by showing Kerouac letters

to scholars, why hasn't Mr. Sampas taken them to court???

It is only because the University of Massachusetts, Lowell, has bent

to Mr. Sampas's will (I might say willfulness) that the MEMORY BABE

collection is closed to the public.

For all of you who care about the importance of this collection,

please know that I AM TAKING LEGAL ACTION to free the MEMORY BABE archive,

and your support could be very helpful.

In the meantime, better think twice before packing your bags for a

scholarly trip to Lowell. Better call librarian Martha Mayo first, and

better have your 300 signed permissions in hand.

Sorry, but that's the way it is-- Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:02:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my

>professional reputation.

>> Thank you.

>> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

>'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:23:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

>I've hung out with Attila a few times, and he is one of the sweetest,

>gentlest most philosophical and non-greedy people I've ever met.

>Furthermore, the one time I discussed you and your activities

>with him (a few months ago over some beers after he and I

>attended the play "Kerouac" together) he was taking your side,

>and telling me about some of your good points. You've gone and

>turned another friend into an enemy! As you did with me.

>Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve

>problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better

>serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.

>------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> ###################################

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

>-----------------------------------------------------

Levi, 5/24/97

Bentz Kirby commented about what a "weird scene" it is on the

Beat-List, and one of the weirdest things is how people here keep calling up

down, green red, and enemies friends.

A few nights ago, Attila Gyensis told (lied) to the Beat-L readers

that I had spent years "demanding" to be invited to Lowell by Lowell

Celebrates Kerouac! (a committee he is or has been a member of). The truth

is, I have never so much as written Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! a single

letter, or even called them on the phone.

Yet, Mr. Gyensis is supposed to be "taking my side."

You were supposed to be my "friend," and you falsely embarrass me

here on the Beat-List, claiming I arbitrarily forced you to pull Jan's

PARROT FEVER from your website (as if I were on some kind of power trip a la

Rod Anstee), when I had already explained to you, in writing, in detail,

that I was being legally constrained by Jan's heirs from letting you publish

the piece (even on the internet) for nothing.

Now I don't expect Mr. Gyensis is getting rich off John Sampas.

When I dropped his name a few posts ago, it was because so much intense

scrutiny of my and Jan's finances has been posted on this net by people like

Anstee and Chaput. So I wanted to turn the tables for a moment, just so

those on the other side would know what it feels like to be asked questions

about every penny you ever earned or were helped to earn.

When Mr. Gyensis makes false (and essentially damaging) accusations

about me, I have to wonder what his motives are, and I would have to be a

fool to think that Mr. Sampas has not been helpful to him in publishing his

magazine.

The bottom line, here, Levi, is not that I'm a mean or vicious

person (ask the 60 ladies over at my mom's nursing home, whom I visit every

day). The bottom line is that I'm tired of an onslaught of vicious,

personal attacks on me--which have all arisen because certain people don't

want to answer the really important questions about what Mr. Sampas is doing

with Jack Kerouac's archive. And I want those people to know that I don't

lie down and play dead at the first shove. I shove back. And if you shove

harder, I shove harder.

I'm ready to lower the intensity of this debate any time the other

side is. Or perhaps more to the point, I'm ready to play clean--without the

Rodman-like kicks, elbows, and body-blocks--as soon as the other side shows

me the same courtesy.

It's them you should be lecturing, not me.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:27:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

> >

> >>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging to my

> >professional reputation.

> >> Thank you.

> >> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

> >

> >'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

> >

> C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

> from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

> Best, Gerry

What's with all the Rodman-bashing???

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:36:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: hello

At 09:53 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined because i

>am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many of the

>people on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question for

>research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he influenced by,

>the "beat generation"?"

>if a few kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to me,

>or if anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please e-mail me

>at

>chatfield@voyager.net

>i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people would find

>annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

>thanks.

>--amy jean

>"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."

>-r.e.m.

Dear Amy Jean-- May 24, 1997

Thanks for giving me the chance to show I don't think about literary

estates and lawsuits all my waking hours (my little daughter Wu Ji would

never allow that).

Read my biography of Jack Kerouac, MEMORY BABE (from University of

California Press), or if you're not into 800-page books, read a shorter

version of things by Steven Turner called ANGELHEADED HIPSTER (Viking); read

John Clellon Holmes' NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE (reissued, I believe, from U.

of Arkansas Press); read John Tytell's NAKED ANGELS; get ahold of the

catalogue to the Whitney Museum Show: BEAT CULTURE AND THE NEW AMERICA (you

can order it from the Whitney Museum Book Shop in New York City); and maybe

try listening to HOWLS RAPS & ROARS, on record, CD, or tape from Fantasy

Records in Berkeley. Better yet, if you are near California, visit City

Lights Bookstore, the poetry and Beat room upstairs, see if you can have

coffee with the owner, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and sit in Kerouac's

corner in Vesuvio's bar next door, where many of the old Beat poets still

hang out, like Jack Micheline, Howard Hart, Eugene Ruggles, and Marty Matz.

Beat was a very large community, of which only a small iceberg tip ever got

famous; it was supportive, compassionate, open toward life, and in constant

pursuit of joy and new experience--and Kerouac led the way.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:45:45 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

At 10:27 PM 5/24/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Gerald Nicosia wrote:

>> At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> >In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>> >

>> >>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging

to my

>> >professional reputation.

>> >> Thank you.

>> >> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

>> >

>> >'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

>> >

>> C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

>> from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

>> Best, Gerry

>What's with all the Rodman-bashing???

Hey, Dave,

I LIKE Dennis Rodman. Why was that a bash?

Best, Gerry

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:55 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Gargolye magazine

At 01:29 PM 5/24/97 EST, you wrote:

>This may be repeat information as I think I lost some mail during a recent

>thunderstorm here in the outback So excuse me if this is old news but the

>latest issue of Gargoyle Magazine, number 39/40, has an excerpt of Joan Haverty

>Kerouac's autobiography in it (this would be Jan's mother). Give it a look

>should you spy a copy.

>One more thing, any fans of Larry Eigner out there? Re-reading some of his work

>as he died a few months ago, I was happy to have my memory re-freshed to what a

>fine poet he was. Sorry he had to die for me to look at his work again...but if

>you get a chance, give Larry a read. Adios to a great poet.

>dave B.

Dave, May 24, 1997

I believe Jack Foley, who was a close friend of Eigner's, did a

memorial show for him on Foley's radio program (I forget the name) on

KPFA-FM radio in Berkeley. If you call the station, they can probably sell

you a copy of the show, if you're interested.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:58:31 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

In-Reply-To: <199705250121.SAA23363@netcom.netcom.com>

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Levi Asher wrote:

> Your tactics are all WRONG. This is NOT the way you solve

> problems. Stop bullying people around. You could better

> serve your own cause with more peaceful tactics.

> Please, Gerry Nicosia, start going with the flow

> a little more. Estate battles happen. The world survives.

> Let's talk about something else. Maybe, to get us off on

> a different topic, you could tell us about the Vietnam book

> you're writing. I'd really like to hear about it. When do

> you expect it will be published?

levi and friends: "start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the

rap weasels the world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing

that's said when people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away

from passion and the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that i

wish the

whole estate battle could be solved with a magic swing of a wand, but

it aint gonna happen that way. none of any waterheaded zen crap will

zone-out a long (and necessary) airing of the two sides' positions. don't

zero in on nicosia as the "bad" guy. levi, you say some very wise things

a lot of the time--and you have a boffo web site--but quit the whining

about nicosia. if you hate the back and forth poison re: the estate

battle, why not get on anstee and chaput, too??? the couple of times i've

read posts reZ: the estate thing, you've been on nicosia's case. perhaps

i am being a bit simplistic here, but ....

we should be (and i am) glad nicosia is rapping on the list--about

anything he wants. if we can think lisa rabey's rap on cocksucking is

okay for the list, why whip out the cattleprods when nicosia et al go

back and forth on the estate thing?

i like reading about the battle.

let's let the camps have it out.

it's much more interesting than all the geek posts from people wondering

whether george bush, george clooney, kesey, socks the cat, and bozo the

clown, etc. are beat or not.

let the voices roll. keep yer fingers on the delete key. and keep yer

heads open. after all, this is advertised as a "forum", right?

regards,

steve

Steve R. Smith

Graduate Teaching Assistant

Department of English

Portland State University

Box 751 Portland, OR 97207

503-725-3556

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:06:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: hello

In a message dated 97-05-24 21:49:37 EDT, chatfield@VOYAGER.NET (chatfield

residence) writes:

<< i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people would

find

annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

thanks. >>

Dear amy jean -

what a refreshing and considerate attitude. you are setting a good example.

others who consider themselves Kerouac experts could learn from your gentle

thoughtfulness. Talking about the beats is why we're here, most of us, so you

could never annoy us with that.

In response to your question: sometimes the phrase "beat generation" refers

to the writers and other principals, and sometimes (perhaps less often) it is

used to indicate all the people of that generation. If you want to know how

Kerouac influenced the beat generation writers, you need to realize that he,

Allen Ginsberg and William Burroughs are the only ones whom everyone agrees

"belong" as beat writers. They were all friends and they influenced each

other.

It is sometimes thought that Kerouac had more influence on the following

generation - let's call them the hippies for nostalgia's sake! - than he did

on people of his own age group.

I concur with Antoine about the various resources available and would also

recommend

spending some time with the Jack Kerouac ROMnibus CD-ROM if you can borrow

(or afford) one.

Good luck!

Jul

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:44:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

>If you want to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then answer me

>this. Did you know Jack when your were a kid? Tell us about it. I'm sure

>others will be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about

>something where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.

>Jerry Cimino

>Thanks Jerry, I did meet Jack once although it is not much of a story and

it's kind of a sad one to me. It was around 1966 (I'm not sure of the exact

date) I was 13 or 14 years old and my father had picked up Jack and the two

of them were going to go into Boston for a night out on the town. My father

in his grand wisdom had thought it would be a memorable experience for me to

go with them, probably so I could get to know Jack and maybe he was thinking

that at some point in my life I would realize what an incredibly cool

experience it would have been. So anyway they drove up to where I was

hanging around at the time (a park in downtown Lowell) called Lucy Larcom

park. I was a long haired hippie at the time and my father lived in another

area of town than I did because my parents had divorced. That's why I hadn't

met Jack before because my father mostly went to his house and picked him up

because he didn't drive and my father also had a car. He had only been over

to my father's house a few times, although Jack had met my father's mother

my Memere and he also introduced his mother Gabrielle to my Memere. Memere

to Memere. So anyway he called me over to the car and introduced Jack to me.

He was sitting in the back of the car and I reached in and shook his hand

and said hello. My father then told me that they were going into Boston for

the night and he asked me if I wanted to go with him. Like a

fool-moron-jerk-idiot- I declined and told them politely thanks anyway but

I'd would rather just hang around the park. There was some kind of action

going on and at the time (I was probably going to score and get high or

something) I wasn't into Kerouac then. I just knew him as the famous Lowell

author and good friend of my dad's. My brother on the other hand was really

into Jack and had read every single book Jack had written. I realized later

that Jack had probably gotten into the back seat that night assuming I would

go with them and maybe it was kind of an insult but then again maybe it was

just so Jack could be more comfortable. What I remember of him that night is

that he already had a good head start on his night out. In other words he

was already starting to get pretty drunk and I could tell. He also looked

fat to me at the time and red faced. Looking back I wouldn't now think he

was fat but that's what I thought of him at the time. I guess I was

expecting something else. So that's about it the only other time was about 2

or 3 years later in 69 when they buried him. I was going to St. Joseph's

High School at the time which is just down the street from St. Jean the

Baptist church where they had the funeral mass for Jack. I skipped out of

class and walked down the street and stood in the doorway of Voyer's florist

shop. I knew Joe Voyer he was a pretty cool guy (he also knew Jack and my

dad) and let me hang out or hide out while I watched my father as a

pallbearer carry Jack's body into the church. The night I didn't go with

them Jack and my dad went over and asked my brother Tony if he wanted to go

with them and of course he jumped at the chance. He had the most memorable

experience of his life. He really loved Jack. He got to drill Jack with all

kinds of questions like "what was your favorite drug?" things only a teen

would ask. I have been trying to get him to write a story about it for a

long time. He promises me now he will do it soon. He lives in California.

Jack did mention me in one of his letters when he asked my dad " ...have you

found your boy yet..." I had ran away from home for a while at 14 and had

started my own "on the road" trip. Stella had also sent a Christmas card in

1968 asking my dad "Have you found Philip?" I still have that card and

letter and I cherish them. To this day I regret not having gone with my dad

and Jack that night. So that's how I got to know and love Jack Kerouac.

Thanks for asking and listening. Phil

I was wondering if anyone else on the list might have a story to tell about

meeting Jack or any of the beats. Might be an interesting thread.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:01:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

... The night I didn't go with

>them Jack and my dad went over and asked my brother Tony if he wanted to go

>with them and of course he jumped at the chance. He had the most memorable

>experience of his life. He really loved Jack. He got to drill Jack with all

>kinds of questions like "what was your favorite drug?" things only a teen

>would ask. I have been trying to get him to write a story about it for a

>long time. He promises me now he will do it soon. He lives in California.

>Jack did mention me in one of his letters when he asked my dad " ...have you

>found your boy yet..." I had ran away from home for a while at 14 and had

>started my own "on the road" trip. Stella had also sent a Christmas card in

>1968 asking my dad "Have you found Philip?" I still have that card and

>letter and I cherish them. To this day I regret not having gone with my dad

>and Jack that night. So that's how I got to know and love Jack Kerouac.

>Thanks for asking and listening. Phil

>I was wondering if anyone else on the list might have a story to tell about

>meeting Jack or any of the beats. Might be an interesting thread.

Phil, May 24, 1997

I remember sitting in your dad's kitchen, and Tony telling me that

same story. I think I even put it on tape.

Thanks for your memories.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:01:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Bush

Well, Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and

cross bones.

Peace,

Hillary, no, Bill yes,

Snoopy yes, Socks the Cat no

me, yes, my wife, no

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:09:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: hello

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 09:53 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >hi, my name is amy jean, and i am new on this list. i have joined

> because i

> >am doing a research project on jack kerouac and i thought that many

> of the

> >people on this list would be knowledgeable in that area. My question

> for

> >research is, "How did Jack kerouac influence, and how was he

> influenced by,

> >the "beat generation"?"

> >if a few kind people have any ideas on what books would be helpful to

> me,

> >or if anyone has any answers to that question themselves, please

> e-mail me

> >at

> >chatfield@voyager.net

> >i would not like to tie up the list with things that most people

> would find

> >annoying, especially because i am new here. : )

> >thanks.

> >--amy jean

> >

> >"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's

> confined."

> >-r.e.m.

> >

> Dear Amy Jean-- May 24, 1997

> Thanks for giving me the chance to show I don't think about

> literary

> estates and lawsuits all my waking hours (my little daughter Wu Ji

> would

> never allow that).

> Read my biography of Jack Kerouac, MEMORY BABE (from

> University of

> California Press), or if you're not into 800-page books, read a

> shorter

> version of things by Steven Turner called ANGELHEADED HIPSTER

> (Viking); read

> John Clellon Holmes' NOTHING MORE TO DECLARE (reissued, I believe,

> from U.

> of Arkansas Press); read John Tytell's NAKED ANGELS; get ahold of the

> catalogue to the Whitney Museum Show: BEAT CULTURE AND THE NEW AMERICA

> (you

> can order it from the Whitney Museum Book Shop in New York City); and

> maybe

> try listening to HOWLS RAPS & ROARS, on record, CD, or tape from

> Fantasy

> Records in Berkeley. Better yet, if you are near California, visit

> City

> Lights Bookstore, the poetry and Beat room upstairs, see if you can

> have

> coffee with the owner, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and sit in

> Kerouac's

> corner in Vesuvio's bar next door, where many of the old Beat poets

> still

> hang out, like Jack Micheline, Howard Hart, Eugene Ruggles, and Marty

> Matz.

> Beat was a very large community, of which only a small iceberg tip

> ever got

> famous; it was supportive, compassionate, open toward life, and in

> constant

> pursuit of joy and new experience--and Kerouac led the way.

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

Amy Jean:

If you is interested in beat and Kerouac, what better and cooler thing

could there be than to post an question and get an answer from one of

the preeminent biographers of Kerouac. Man, the www is the collective

unconscious. Can you imagine the chat rooms with Neal, Jack, Allen,

Vidal, Snyder, Corson, and Rexroth ranting through the night.

Wow, like a holy vision, it lights up my night!!!!

You don't know how lucky you are. And I am glad that I do know how

lucky I am to be here today.

Thanks Gerry, and you are just going to have to let the shit slid man.

Sometimes it works out better that way.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:14:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

Phil Chaput wrote:

> >If you want to start a serious discussion about Jack, Phil, then

> answer me

> >this. Did you know Jack when your were a kid? Tell us about it.

> I'm sure

> >others will be interested and it will allow you and me to talk about

> >something where we aren't on opposite sides of the fence.

> >

> >Jerry Cimino

> >

> >Thanks Jerry, I did meet Jack once although it is not much of a story

> and

> it's kind of a sad one to me. It was around 1966 (I'm not sure of the

> exact

> date) I was 13 or 14 years old and my father had picked up Jack and

> the two

> of them were going to go into Boston for a night out on the town.

Thanks for the story. As I just said when I came across Gerry's post to

the young inquirer, Man, this is a great place to be. I do appreciate

it.

Peace,

PS,

Wasn't something written by Jack, or by a biographer about a kid from

Lowell being along on a trip?

Well, the best I can say is that Jack died on my 16th birthday. October

21.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:19:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Philip Whalen

Question re: Philip Whalen:

Can anyone tell me how much of Whalen's poetry is still in print and

from who?

And, does anyone know where/in-what-book his poem "big, high song to

somebody" was published?

Thanks, Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:19:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: ...your story Phil and Jack in Brooklyn

That was great to read Phil. Thanks very much. Tell your brother

that you now have a bunch of salivating expectant readers waiting...and that

you won't give out his home address if he writes the damn story! I can put

it in with this and the piece that you sent me by Nicosia about Jack and

your Dad on the road to Montreal. Thanks.

Having grown up in Brooklyn - the Bedford-Stuyvesant/Flatbush/Park

Slope area - I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me where in Brooklyn

Jack was staying with his aunt while he was going to Horace Mann.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:32:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request-Lisa is right

Gentlemen! (Phil and Gerry)!

What a delight to get both of your posts back to back, one after another on

my email. Nicosia sitting in Chaput Sr.'s kitchen talking to Phil's brother

about Jack. All of us having been caught in the cross fire the last few

days, who'd have thought it! :^)

Gerry, what about you? I don't think you ever met Jack in person, but I

could be mistaken. And if not, what got you in to him in the first place.

Maybe we can put the war aside for a little while and talk about the man

himself. And then if and when we start *debating* again maybe things will be

a little more diffused. Whaddya say all? It's a holiday weekend... even in

real shooting wars they usually stop firing on Christmas eve and Christmas

being a long way off maybe this is the next best thing!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:38:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

Gerry,

Is there an easy way to tell whether you actually did tape Tony

telling that story? ...and is it part of the holdings of your archive at

Lowell? Thanks Gerry.

Thanks you also by the way for your kind offer of the signed copy of

"Memory Babe". A friend beat you to the punch in finding me a copy of an

earlier edition. The response to my request was amazing, because in rapid

succession I had e-mails from Derek Beaulieu, Jerry Cimino, and yourself and

a phone call! from Rod Anstee...all with offers of the book! So, at any

rate, it's on its way to me - and not a moment too soon. I'm heading into

the home stretch on McNally's book (after David Rhaesa blew by me at high

speed! - he had been about 40 pages back when we started tracking each

other's progress) and will need another Kerouac biography to keep going

with. Am now interested also in "Angel Headed Hipster" after seeing it

mentioned several times in recent posts. Still have the Arthur and Kit

Knoght, Gregory Stephenson, and Challis books waiting in the wings as backups.

How did you come to do the "Memory Babe" bio? Did you arrive at it

from academia / teaching?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:05:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Law suits

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%97052420300442@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Gentle listmembers, I don't think Beat-l is the proper place to give or

>take legal depositions. Let's leave any talk of lawsuits in the

>attorney's office where they belong or at least threaten each other

>privately.

However, if suits are filed, please inform the list.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cosmic Baseball Association <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

Subject: Beat and Marriage

>Well, Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and

>cross bones.

-snip-

>me, yes, my wife, no

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

Is it possible to be beat and married?

Regards,

Andrew

cosmic@clark.net

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:27:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Law suits

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 10:27 PM 5/24/97 -0500, you wrote:

> >Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >>

> >> At 09:34 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >> >In a message dated 97-05-24 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

> >> >

> >> >>he will be held accountable for whatever he says here that is damaging

> to my

> >> >professional reputation.

> >> >> Thank you.

> >> >> Yours truly, Gerald Nicosia

> >> >

> >> >'Seems to me that you should consider suing yourself, too, Gerry.

> >> >

> >>

> >> C'mon, Rod, you can do better than that. We expect something REALLY NASTY

> >> from you. Dennis Rodman wouldn't even roll his eyeballs at that one.

> >> Best, Gerry

> >

> >What's with all the Rodman-bashing???

> >

> Hey, Dave,

> I LIKE Dennis Rodman. Why was that a bash?

> Best, Gerry

i misread. my foul. i like Dennis too.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> Gerry,

> Is there an easy way to tell whether you actually did tape Tony

> telling that story? ...and is it part of the holdings of your archive at

> Lowell? Thanks Gerry.

> Thanks you also by the way for your kind offer of the signed copy of

> "Memory Babe". A friend beat you to the punch in finding me a copy of an

> earlier edition. The response to my request was amazing, because in rapid

> succession I had e-mails from Derek Beaulieu, Jerry Cimino, and yourself and

> a phone call! from Rod Anstee...all with offers of the book! So, at any

> rate, it's on its way to me - and not a moment too soon. I'm heading into

> the home stretch on McNally's book (after David Rhaesa blew by me at high

> speed! - he had been about 40 pages back when we started tracking each

> other's progress) and will need another Kerouac biography to keep going

> with. Am now interested also in "Angel Headed Hipster" after seeing it

> mentioned several times in recent posts. Still have the Arthur and Kit

> Knoght, Gregory Stephenson, and Challis books waiting in the wings as backups.

> How did you come to do the "Memory Babe" bio? Did you arrive at it

> from academia / teaching?

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

Right now I'm reading Memory Babe and Charter's Kerouac at the same

time. very different styles both incredible. I also checked you Dharma

Lion about Ginsberg but haven't really cracked it yet. though three at

the same time might be fun.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 05:13:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: A bright sunny day in May

Hey Mark,

I got the Kerouac Quarterly, thanks.

Hows it going. Still I haven't made it to Portland but I'm enjoying my stay

here in Northern California. I might be back to New York for a week or so in

July but I don't know it I'll make it up north.

well, now I think that things will start to slowly start dying down. But it

has been an interesting ride. I personally think I got a little scholarship

out of this whole thing, since I learned a few new things.

later, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:19:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: thanks, phil

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970525044430.006adf58@pop.tiac.net>

great story.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:19:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

In-Reply-To: <199705250743.DAA00985@mail.clark.net>

andrew wrote

>Is it possible to be beat and married?

@@@@@@@@@

hey andrew, i dont have an answer for you, but have to thank you for

question, and upon digging through all things beat, ijust found and re-read

corso's pome 'marriage'

too long for me to type out. here are a few salient quotes:

should i get married? should i be good?

astound the girl next door

with my velvet suit and faustus hood?...

........

O God and the wedding! all her family and her friends

and only a handful of mine all scroungy and bearded

just waiting to get at the drinks and food

.........

o but what about love? i forget love

not that i am incapable of love

it's just that i see love as odd as wearing shoes--

i never wanted to marry a girl who was like my mother

and ingrid bergman was always impossible

and there's maybe a girl now but she's already married

and i dont like men and--

but there's bound to be somebody!

because what if i'm 60 years old and not married,

all alone in a furnished room with pee stains on my underwear

and everybody else is married! all the universt married but me!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 06:43:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Marie Countryman wrote:

> andrew wrote

> >Is it possible to be beat and married?

> @@@@@@@@@

> hey andrew, i dont have an answer for you, but have to thank you for

> question, and upon digging through all things beat, ijust found and re-read

> corso's pome 'marriage'

> too long for me to type out. here are a few salient quotes:

> should i get married? should i be good?

> astound the girl next door

> with my velvet suit and faustus hood?...

> ........

> O God and the wedding! all her family and her friends

> and only a handful of mine all scroungy and bearded

> just waiting to get at the drinks and food

> .........

> o but what about love? i forget love

> not that i am incapable of love

> it's just that i see love as odd as wearing shoes--

> i never wanted to marry a girl who was like my mother

> and ingrid bergman was always impossible

> and there's maybe a girl now but she's already married

> and i dont like men and--

> but there's bound to be somebody!

> because what if i'm 60 years old and not married,

> all alone in a furnished room with pee stains on my underwear

> and everybody else is married! all the universt married but me!

I just read this one recently in some collection. at times it made my

bone marrow jerk a bit the identifications were so compleat.

Another morning and another wonderful day started by the notes from

sweet marie. a true breath of fresh air.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:08:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Thanks for your support

In a message dated 97-05-24 20:35:06 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

<< In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received

numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin .....

No other Kerouac publication ever got that kind of major advertising

Dear Mr. Nicosiais:

If your publisher is interested in placing a full page ad, please have them

contact me. I'll see if I can ok it with the proper authorities.

Best,

Attila Gyenis

Editor

DHARMA beat

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:16:34 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>

In-Reply-To: <"noralf.uib.646:25.05.97.04.02.54"@uib.no>

Tra un fiore colto e l'altro donato

l'inesprimibile vanita

Fiore doppio

nato in grembo alla madonna

della gioia

Between a flower gathered and the other given/ the inexpressible vanity/ /

Double flower/ born of the womb of our lady/ of joy

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:25:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: You go JO

However, if suits are filed, please inform the list.

j grant

____________________________

Jo:

I don't know if you were just serious, or if you also were poking fun at

our love of the morbidity of it all, but to me, LOL. And as an

attorney, yeah let me know too! ;-)

Peace

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:36:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Word games

I have always loved word games. Even though I have always sucked at

crossword puzzles. I always saw them like a haiku, and love Rexroths

One Hundred Poems from the Japanese and Snyders use of Japanese-Oriental

imagery. Since someone else posted some cool stuff, I thought I would

risk the criticism of the beat world and post one of my little attempts

at irony things here. Please excuse me.

Toxic Reins

The City and the Country

Are two places.

If my wife was not blind to Toxi-city,

My children could ride horses.

Like Bukowski.

May 25, 1997 9:34 AM

Since all the comments about Bukowski, I could not resist the allusion.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:39:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Comments: To: cosmic@clark.net

Cosmic Baseball Association wrote:

> >Well, Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull

> and

> >cross bones.

> -snip-

> >me, yes, my wife, no

> >

> >--

> >Bentz

> >bocelts@scsn.net

> Is it possible to be beat and married?

> Regards,

> Andrew

> cosmic@clark.net

Andrew:

Is the CBA open? I have not been able to get back in lately. I was

trying to tell someone of your wonderful site and the the URL started

telling me that clark.net does not exist.

Thanks and oh yeah, probably it is a bumpy bumpy ride, because two beats

should not marry. They would spin off into a morass of

ADD/hyperactivity.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:50:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Corso on Kerouac

As I prepare for my trip to San Francisco, I have pulled all my City

Lights Pocket Poets off the shelf and begun to read and re-read them. I

want to drink a coffee with Lawrence, and I want to feel the grass in

the park that is the child of the grass that Jack felt. So, I started

today with Elegiac Feelings American (for the dear memory of John

Kerouac) by Gregory Corso. I think parts are worth repeating, Yo, Race,

this can't be Marie, but it could be absolutely sweet:

How inseparable you and the America you saw yet was

never there to see; you and America, like the

tree and the ground, are one the same; yet how

like a palm tree in the state of Oregon... dead

ere it blossomed, like a snow polar loping the

Miami--

How so that which you were and hoped to be, and the

America not, the America you saw yet could

not see

So like yet unlike the ground from which you stemmed;

you stood upon America like a rootless

flat-bottomed tree; to the squirrel there was no

divorcement in its hop of ground to its climb of tree

......................

Was it not so much our finding America as it was America

finding its voice in us; many spoke to America

as though America by land-right was theirs by

law-right legislatively acquired by materialistic

coups of wealth and inheritance; like the citizen

of society believes himself the owner of society.

and what he makes of himself, he makes of

America and thus when he speaks of America

he speaks of himself, and quite often such a he

is duly elected to represent what he represents...

an infernal ego of an America

.........................

Alas Jack, seems I cannot requiem thee without

requieming America, and that's one requiem

I shall not presume, for as long as I live there'll

be no requiems for me

................

Yours the eyes that saw, the heart that felt, the voice that

sang and cried; and as long as America shall

live, though ye old Kerouac body hath died,

yet shall ye live... for indeed ours was a time

of prophesy without death as a consequence...

for indeed after us came the time of the assassins,

and who'll doubt thy last words "After me...

the deluge"

........................................

We came to announce the human spirit in the name of

beauty and truth; and now this spirit cries out in

nature's sake the horrnedous imbalance of all

things natural... elusive nature caught! like a

bird in hand, harnessed and engineered in the

unevolutional ways of experiment and technique

What hope for the America so embodied in thee, O friend,

when the very same alcohol that disembodied

your brother redman of his America,

disembodied ye-- A plot to grab their land, we

know--yet what plot to grab the ungrabbable

land of one's spirit? ....

............

[Then on to the end of Chapter 4 and this beautiful, tearful tribute to

John Kerouac and indictment of our country and world that still rings so

true with cloning, rain forest rape, genetic engineering, etc. Thanks

Gregory]

....

And you were flashed upon the old and darkling day

a Beat Christ-boy... bearing the gentle roundness of things

insisting that the soul was not square

And soon...behind thee

there came a-following

the children of flowers

By Gregory Corso, North Beach, San Francisco, 1969

This yet, brings tears to my eyes and chills to my whole body. What love

for Jack and his work, what truth of feelings spoken. The honesty of

Jack's faults, that some would deny, what honesty about the treachery

that gave birth to this country, what passion for Jack's vision. Can

there be any doubt as to the identity of Bob Dylan's Tambourine Man, no,

it is Jack Kerouac! But, of course it is many others as well, but it is

Jack Kerouac, Tambourine Man to whom we all dance. And yes the beats

were more, but without Jack, there were no more beats.

Hey! Mister Tambourine Man, play a song for me

I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to.

Hey! Mister Tabourine Man, play a song for me,

In the jingle jangle morning I'll come following you.

Peace, and don't forget to pray for Ti Jean, because we are now he.

That's my church for the day!

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:07:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Andrew:

Yes. 31 years.

Best,

Pamela Beach Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:45:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Book info.

I have a book coming out June 4th, TWENTY DAYS ON ROUTE 20, a haibun

(condensed prose & haiku) account of a cross-country journey taken last

fall. If anyone's interested please E-mail me privately (don't think I

should take up any more list space than this for the book) and I'll E-mail

flyer/details.

Thanks,

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:45:28 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Ungaretti.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>

At 14.16 25/05/97 +0200, Nils-Oivind Haagensen wrote:

>Tra un fiore colto e l'altro donato

>l'inesprimibile vanita

>Fiore doppio

>nato in grembo alla madonna

>della gioia

>Between a flower gathered and the other given/ the inexpressible vanity/ /

>Double flower/ born of the womb of our lady/ of joy

Caro Nils-Oivind Haagensen, GRAZIE!,

grande citazione! UNGARETTI! il grande poeta italiano di questo

secolo, la poesia esattamente recita:

---------------------------------------------------------------

ETERNO

Tra un fiore colto e l'altro donato

l'inesprimibile nulla

--- Giuseppe Ungaretti, Ultime, Milano 1914-1915---------------

grazie e cari saluti e buona domenica da

Rinaldo Rasa.

NON GRIDATE PIU' di Giuseppe Ungaretti, da "I Ricordi"

Cessate d'uccidere i morti,

Non gridate piu', non gridate

Se li volete ancora udire,

Se sperate di non perire.

Hanno l'impercettibile sussurro,

non fanno piu' rumore

Del crescere dell'erba,

Lieta dove passa l'uomo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:59:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

In-Reply-To: <3388411A.30565089@scsn.net> from "R. Bentz Kirby" at May 25,

97 09:39:39 am

Bentz wrote:

> Thanks and oh yeah, probably it is a bumpy bumpy ride, because two beats

> should not marry. They would spin off into a morass of ADD/hyperactivity.

I've been married seven years, and this has become a regular cycle by

now. With some smart scheduling, we can make the hyperactivity wave

happen on weekends and the attention-deficit part on weekdays. It

also helps me that my wife can't stand the Beats (keeps us balanced).

That Gregory Corso poem is the best, too ...

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:32:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Levi,

My wife couldn't stand the beats either when we first got married. I think

it's got to do with that "he's gonna run off and sow his wild oats leaving me

stuck at home alone" female thing. Can't imagine why any woman would think

that about people like Neal Cassady?

Now she's involved in a business where she's talking beat everyday. She

really focused in on the women writers, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Diane

DiPrima, Carolyn etc and it turned her around. She especially enjoyed the

new Women & the BG recently released.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:32:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

>Gerry,

> Is there an easy way to tell whether you actually did tape Tony

>telling that story? ...and is it part of the holdings of your archive at

>Lowell? Thanks Gerry.

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

Dear Antoine, May 25, 1997

Yes, I checked my 48 page catalogue of what I put on deposit at U

Mass, Lowell, and THERE WAS A TAPED INTERVIEW OF TONY CHAPUT INCLUDED IN THE

COLLECTION. I'm sure that's the story.

Now we'll need a signed letter from Tony in California to Martha

Mayo at the Special Collections, Mogan Center, U Mass, Lowell, 40 French

St., Lowell, Mass, telling Ms. Mayo's it's okay for people to listen to the

tape and to read the transcription.

That's if the Chaput tape and transcription are not among the many

missing items from the collection. And I'm also not 100% sure Ms. Mayo

won't come up with yet another excuse to keep Tony's interview off limits,

but it would be interesting if Tony sent in a permission letter to see if

people could actually get access to it.

However, you see the difficulty of chipping one little stone free at

a time, from a wall (collection) that is built of thousands of stones. I

need a legal action to free the entire collection at one time.

I was getting my master's at U of I, Chicago, in 1972, when I was

prodded into reading Kerouac by my officemate (we were teaching assistants

together), a hip Jewish kid named John Simon from Harvard. Until then I'd

been forced to read all the academic standards of modern American fiction,

Roth, Bellow, Mailer, Updike, et al. But on my own I had read Thoreau and

Whitman and Jack London, so I was tremendously receptive when I read the

first 5 pages of THE DHARMA BUMS and found all this spirituality,

compassion, and concern for the common, workingclass people. You see, my

father was a socialist from Chicago, who had read most of Jack London when

young --he had even hitchhiked to California at the age of 17 in 1927 and

had told me many of his own "road tales" while I was growing up. My father

also used to read to me from London's THE IRON HEEL, to teach me about the

oppression of the poor by the rich, so when I read Kerouac I knew

immediately I had found a brother soul. (We'd both been raised ethnic

Catholic to boot, me Italian Catholic, Jack of course French Catholic.)

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:43:17 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Thanks for your support

At 08:08 AM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-24 20:35:06 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

><< In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received

> numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin .....

> No other Kerouac publication ever got that kind of major advertising

>>>

>Dear Mr. Nicosiais:

>If your publisher is interested in placing a full page ad, please have them

>contact me. I'll see if I can ok it with the proper authorities.

>Best,

>Attila Gyenis

>Editor

>DHARMA beat

Dear Attila, May 25, 1997

Levi says you're my friend, but you seem to have forgotten how to

spell my name.

Since you're my friend, I was expecting at least the first ad for free.

Thanks.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:58:33 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Garb for Holy Goof

Well in 15 minutes I'm off to my 29th commencement at this institute of

higher learning wearing my Master's Degree (in English!) garb, which looks

like the skin of a wet bat dangling from my arms, my legs sore from yam yum

in the 4th circle of hell, but yesterday my wife and I went to the Mall of

America Memorial Day 50% off plus 20% sale, and--get ready for this--bought

my first pair of grown-up pants in years (with cuffs!)--and a Gerry Garcia

tie (not on sale)! I look great! (You're only as old as you look!) Good

enough for litigation, if not as good as Allen Ginsberg in white shirt and

tie reading HOWL! for the first time. May the Great Speckled Bird be with

you all for the weekend. // Gratefully dead, John M.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:03:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

What a fascinating storyline here. And it's kind of ironic too. We've

actually learned something kind of major through calm discussion.

Phil Chuput tells a story about his brother Tony. It's a first person

account and we're all touched by it to one degree or another and others say

Tony ought to type it up and preserve it. Phil says he's been after Tony to

do it for years and thinks he may do it soon.

Gerry Nicosia says he taped that same story directly from Tony's lips and in

fact the audio tape is sitting in Lowell in a collection that no one has

access to on an old tape that is probably rotting away.

Kind of makes you wonder how far honest dialogue and discourse can take us.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:36:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's....

....and me, Irish Catholic! In 1970 I and a friend hitched back and

forth across the United states and Canada. You can't do that without

developing a huge store of stories, so I can only imagine the kind of

stories your Dad had to tell. Did he ever talk about whether his Italianess

(word?) was recognized and what kinds of reactions he got? And what kinds of

travelling times must he have been talking about - no freeways and I guess

nothing like the long haul trucking that you have now...although we never

had any luck in having truckers stop to pick us up with all the regulations

they have to live under now.

Chicago was one of the few major places that we never ended up in -

along with Los Angeles - and it wasn't until five or six years ago that I

got to the windy city for far too short a visit! At least got to fulfill my

dream of visiting the filed Museum.

Was all your father's travelling on the road or did he ride the

rails as well? Was he going to California to work or just to go?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:42:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Lies, Money, and other non important matters.

In a message dated 97-05-24 23:54:09 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

<>

Dear Gerry,

If I thought that I have to respond to your charges, I would.

best, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:04:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Garb for Holy Goof

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afae3a217417@[141.224.144.84]>

may jerry send you numerous blessings, safe as he is in heaven with AG, JK

and the rest of the heavenly choir

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:36:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Thanks for your support

In-Reply-To: <970525080803_371706416@emout11.mail.aol.com>

>In a message dated 97-05-24 20:35:06 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

><< In the short 3-year history of DHARMA BEAT, you have received

> numerous full-page ads from Viking/Penguin .....

> No other Kerouac publication ever got that kind of major advertising

>>>

>Dear Mr. Nicosiais:

>If your publisher is interested in placing a full page ad, please have them

>contact me. I'll see if I can ok it with the proper authorities.

>Best,

>Attila Gyenis

>Editor

>DHARMA beat

Am I missing something? "Nicosiais" rather than Nicosia? Play on a word?

Perhaps miffed after an enlightening rundown on your ad sales?

Would have enjoyed a response that was a bit more substantial.

j grant

BE ON THE WATCH

for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection

O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell

http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html

Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers

display books free at

<http://www.bookzen.com>

302,443 visitors since July 1, 1996

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:31:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: the tragedy of it all (to nicosia, chaput et al.)

In-Reply-To: <9704248645.AA864508671@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

hello fellows,

i do believe this may be the first direct response of mine regarding the

continuing shit storm.

so today i set down to scan _memory babe_ again,

looking for the voice of gerald nicosia which has been missing in all of

the words written in this lengthy word war..

when

i came across the photo

of jan kerouac

taken in 1978,

her head held proudly,

hair riffling back in the breeze.

and i said out loud, all to myself,

'my god, this woman is a beauty!'

by which i meant you could see the beauty

in her eyes, the pain and the knowledge

gained at great cost,

as i gazed at her generously beautiful features

i thought, yes, she was her father's daughter.

and i wept.

for the pain of jack

which led, in part, to the pain

inflicted on his daughter,

and how the estate wars

with the shrill fear in which

voices raised 'gainst one another here

--however amusing or informative to some.

sorry guys,

but i mostly feel sad over this whole emotional/legal mess...

may jan be dead and safe in heaven

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:45:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: RE: Hello

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: chatfield@voyager.net (chatfield residence)

To: jhulvey@aol.com

Date: 97-05-25 16:14:34 EDT

julie:

thank you for your answers to my question. i will check out the CD-ROM if i

can. it sounds like it would be cool, even if it doesn't help me with my

research paper.

if you get a chance, would you send a mail to the list saying how grateful

i am for everyone's suggestions? i have to unsub because of the volume of

mail. i can only check my mail once or twice a day, and i can't handle

having 60-70 messages to read. i just don't have the time.

i think this list is a great idea and if i have any questions i may be

re-joining, asking them, and then unsubbing, like the commitment ducker

that i am. :)

thanks for the ideas!

--amy jean

"hold me down, catching my throat, make me pray, say, love's confined."

-r.e.m.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:57:12 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: hipster talk

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>

.clonkk\

\\boff

blip\bleep

\ bop

beep\ \

clink\biff\

kerouac.

. described

. the velocity life of the 20th century\\\

the not music .

by john cage ../

caught the sound of the environment.

//.

clink\\

beeep

\\ bleep

bop\\

bliiip\\\\

yrs

rinaldo

-Rust Never Sleeps-

There's more the picture

Than meets the eye

(Neil Young & Jeff Blackburn)

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:30:25 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: AH I

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>

"There's just something about it which

allows me to write a certain way, like an actual language style

which happens to be inspired as much by the South as it by

Shakespeare or The Bible or whatever. But it allows me to

write in the first person, and I felt this way. And I write

'Ah' instead of 'I'"

Nick Cave.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:29:47 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: the twister haiku

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>

\\ \\

i \\\\

have\

a \

\\ life\

but \

\ i \

can't \\ use \

it\\

\\\ \\\

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:08:01 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 24 May 1997 19:55:16 -0700 from

<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Gerry, how many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have addresses f

or? Why not write a form letter and try to get their permission to open their

letters and tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l could help you contact people

who are hard to find? We maight not locate everyone but we sure could make a

dent and open up a huge chunk of the archive. Seems to me to be a better alter

native than another law suit.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:24:35 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:37 -0400 from <cosmic@CLARK.NET>

On Sun, 25 May 1997 03:43:37 -0400 Cosmic Baseball Association said:

>>Well, Steve, I think that Barbara Bush is beat, George is pure skull and

>>cross bones.

>-snip-

>>me, yes, my wife, no

>>--

>>Bentz

>>bocelts@scsn.net

>Is it possible to be beat and married?

>Regards,

>Andrew

>cosmic@clark.net

Ask Gregory Corso!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:46:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

Bill Gargan wrote:

> Gerry, how many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have

> addresses f

> or? Why not write a form letter and try to get their permission to

> open their

> letters and tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l could help you

> contact people

> who are hard to find? We maight not locate everyone but we sure

> could make a

> dent and open up a huge chunk of the archive. Seems to me to be a

> better alter

> native than another law suit.

Bill:

Is there a valid restriction. The little bit that I read is that UMASS

at Lowell just has a school policy and it is not based upon law. If

someone on the list is aware of any actual statutes that apply, I would

be interested.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:51:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: the tragedy of it all (to nicosia, chaput et al.)

Marie Countryman wrote:

> hello fellows,

> i do believe this may be the first direct response of mine regarding the

> continuing shit storm.

> so today i set down to scan _memory babe_ again,

> looking for the voice of gerald nicosia which has been missing in all of

> the words written in this lengthy word war..

> when

> i came across the photo

> of jan kerouac

> taken in 1978,

> her head held proudly,

> hair riffling back in the breeze.

> and i said out loud, all to myself,

> 'my god, this woman is a beauty!'

> by which i meant you could see the beauty

> in her eyes, the pain and the knowledge

> gained at great cost,

> as i gazed at her generously beautiful features

> i thought, yes, she was her father's daughter.

> and i wept.

> for the pain of jack

> which led, in part, to the pain

> inflicted on his daughter,

> and how the estate wars

> with the shrill fear in which

> voices raised 'gainst one another here

> --however amusing or informative to some.

> sorry guys,

> but i mostly feel sad over this whole emotional/legal mess...

> may jan be dead and safe in heaven

> mc

I think you hit the nail on the head when you speak of all of the pain

involved in this family relationship, maybe in all family relationships.

I have read all of the posts about the estate war since this whole thing

began on the list several weeks ago. I think Mr. Nicosia speaks from a

very personal perspective of watching someone he cared greatly about die,

and then feeling that he must continue to try and carry out her wishes.

I think what he is trying to do for Jan is commendable. I also think

that when you are feeling that kind of pain on a personal level and then

you have to battle several legal issues, emotions are bound to erupt.

But here on the list we are only hearing the same accusations over and

over. Rarely is a new idea brought up. Today, the talk about Jack

rather than the same old war was refreshing. Maybe through conversations

about the words and people, the war can slip into the background. I

think all of the people writing about the estate problems should count

backwards from 500 to 1 before responding to each others posts. I, for

one, would like to hear more stories about Jack (and his daughter) from

people who knew them and were involved in their lives.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:56:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Lowell author-Jay Pendergast

May 25,1997

Lowell author and friend of Jack Kerouac, Jay Pendergast died unexpectedly

this afternoon. Jay had just written a story about Jack in Paul Maher's

premiere issue of the "Kerouac Quarterly" his painting that Jack had given

him personally what I called "Beatnik Jesus" was on the cover. He was an

educator that taught English, Irish and American Literature as well as

History, Writing and Anthropology courses. Jay held his Ph.D. in Irish

Literature and held his Masters degree in English Literature. He was an

author who had written two books about early Lowell "The Bend in the River"

and "Life along the Merrimack" he had also completed a book of photos of

Lowell and one of Dracut and was working on a second book of Lowell photos.

His first Lowell photo book had a wonderful picture of Jack Kerouac at an

early age performing in a play. Jay was also an archeologist and had

completed several archaeological excavations in Newfoundland, Ireland and

along the banks of the Merrimack River. Jay was a very close friend of mine

who loved Jack Kerouac and Lowell. This passage appeared in his first book.

If at night a man goes out to the woods surrounding Galloway, and stands on

a hill, he can see it all there before him in broad panorama: the river

coursing slowly in an arc, the mills with their long rows of windows all

aglow, the factory stacks rising higher than the church steeples. But he

knows that this is not the true Galloway. Something in the invisible

brooding landscape surrounding the town, something in the bright stars

nodding close to a hillside where the old cemetery sleeps, something in the

soft swishing treeleaves over the fields and stone walls tells him a

different story.

Jack Kerouac- The Town and the City

Here's one for you Jay, I'm going to miss you.

Ever see a tired

ba by

Cryin to sleep

in its mother's arms

Wailin all night long

while the locamotive

Wails on back

A cry for a cry

In the smoke and the lamp

Of the hard ass night

That's how I

fee-

eel---

That's how

I fee---eel!

That's how

I feel---

What a deal!

Yes I'm goin ho

ome

Jack Kerouac- Book of Blues-38th Chorus

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:08:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

In-Reply-To: <970525133225_453294080@emout12.mail.aol.com> from "Jerry Cimino"

at May 25, 97 01:32:25 pm

Jerry Cimino wrote:

> My wife couldn't stand the beats either when we first got married. I think

> it's got to do with that "he's gonna run off and sow his wild oats leaving me

> stuck at home alone" female thing. Can't imagine why any woman would think

> that about people like Neal Cassady?

> Now she's involved in a business where she's talking beat everyday. She

> really focused in on the women writers, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Diane

> DiPrima, Carolyn etc and it turned her around. She especially enjoyed the

> new Women & the BG recently released.

Mine is coming around bit by bit too. She really likes listening

to "Kicks Joy Darkness" (that new Rykodisk CD) for instance, whereas

I was lukewarm. But that's just because Patti Smith is on it, I

think ...

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:33:36 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

At 06:08 PM 5/25/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Gerry, how many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have addresses f

>or? Why not write a form letter and try to get their permission to open their

>letters and tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l could help you contact people

> who are hard to find? We maight not locate everyone but we sure could make a

>dent and open up a huge chunk of the archive. Seems to me to be a better alter

>native than another law suit.

Bill, May 25, 1997

What you suggest is a lot easier said than done. A large no. of the

people (after 20 years) are no longer where they were when I interviewed

them. Of the 100 who are dead, I know the whereabouts of the heirs of only

a handful.

Even with those that remain, if I get a letter to them, I can

guarantee you that 50% would not answer. This is just standard with any

mailing. A lot of people won't sign their name to anything, even if they

gave me an interview with full cooperation 20 years ago.

What you must understand is that at any other library, these tapes

would be listenable to, as they are right now.

There is also the matter that Lowell is refusing to duplicate the

tapes, to put them on fresh tape stock, and of course they won't digitalize

them. So the tapes, if kept at Lowell, will be deteriorated too badly to

even listen to in another five to fifteen years (some tapes will last

longer, some are almost gone already).

Then there is the matter of the 2,000 xeroxed Kerouac letters, which

also would be fully available at any other library. Bancroft, Texas, etc.,

show Kerouac's letters every day to scholars without Sampas's permission,

despite his attempts at interference.

And U Mass, Lowell, itself, made the MEMORY BABE archive fully

available to scholars till 1995, when Mr. Sampas brought his complaint to them.

There is the further concern of materials disappearing every year

from the MEMORY BABE archive.

In light of all that, I don't see that I have any choice but a lawsuit.

If you have further thoughts, let me know.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:35:47 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

In-Reply-To: <Pine.PTX.3.91.970524203852.6190A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu> from

"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" at May 24, 97 08:58:31 pm

Steve Smith wrote:

> levi and friends: "start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the

> rap weasels the world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing

> that's said when people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away

> from passion and the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that i

Hah, as if it were that easy to be away from passion and the real

world. Show me the way to free myself of passion and the real world ...

That's why I do yoga -- if only I could succeed ...

> zero in on nicosia as the "bad" guy. levi, you say some very wise things

> a lot of the time--and you have a boffo web site--but quit the whining

> about nicosia. if you hate the back and forth poison re: the estate

Thanks for the compliments, and okay, whatever.

> battle, why not get on anstee and chaput, too??? the couple of times i've

> read posts reZ: the estate thing, you've been on nicosia's case. perhaps

> i am being a bit simplistic here, but ....

Nicosia has an awesome reputation as a world-class scholar to uphold.

Obviously, I hold him to higher standards. That's the way *I* show

my respect. If I'm being too harsh, well, he said he was here to

answer questions, so I asked some!

> anything he wants. if we can think lisa rabey's rap on cocksucking is

> okay for the list, why whip out the cattleprods when nicosia et al go

> back and forth on the estate thing?

Cause it was funny! Hey, if some of you were really enjoying this

battle, sorry for the interruption. I didn't realize it was

such a thrilling match. I remember an old line in a National

Lampoon article in the 70's, after David Bowie and Lou Reed were

photographed fist-fighting in a nightclub -- the writer of this

article claimed that he was there, and said that despite reports

of the fight being like Ali-vs.-Frazier, it was more like

watching "two old ladies patting out fires on each other's

bellies". For whatever that image is worth ...

I'm outta here for the night ... happy Memorial Day

everybody.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:50:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Who was that guy?

In-Reply-To: <3385FBFD.B6F115E4@scsn.net> from "R. Bentz Kirby" at May 23,

97 04:20:13 pm

Bentz wrote (a few days ago):

> Who was the guy who did a comic strip/book, Never Eat Anything Bigger

> Than Your Head?

B. Kliban. Famous for drawing cartoons of cats. Died a few years

ago. Not sure if Beat or not, probably so.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:51:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

Gerry:

If the letters etc of Jack's were mailed, wouldn't the person who

received the letters have control of them. Even though I am a lawyer, I

am a little confused by all of this and would like to get it straight.

If the letters were mailed, and then given to you and then to the

library, it seems to me that Sampas would have nothing to say about any

of this at all. And, does anyone out there know if and how letters are

covered by copyright. What gets them out of the control of someone and

into the right of fair use.

Just curious.

Peace,

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 06:08 PM 5/25/97 EDT, you wrote:

> >Gerry, how many of the 300 people you interviewed do you still have

> addresses f

> >or? Why not write a form letter and try to get their permission to

> open their

> >letters and tapes now? Maybe all of us at Beat-l could help you

> contact people

> > who are hard to find? We maight not locate everyone but we sure

> could make a

> >dent and open up a huge chunk of the archive. Seems to me to be a

> better alter

> >native than another law suit.

> >

> Bill, May 25, 1997

> What you suggest is a lot easier said than done. A large no.

> of the

> people (after 20 years) are no longer where they were when I

> interviewed

> them. Of the 100 who are dead, I know the whereabouts of the heirs of

> only

> a handful.

> Even with those that remain, if I get a letter to them, I can

> guarantee you that 50% would not answer. This is just standard with

> any

> mailing. A lot of people won't sign their name to anything, even if

> they

> gave me an interview with full cooperation 20 years ago.

> What you must understand is that at any other library, these

> tapes

> would be listenable to, as they are right now.

> There is also the matter that Lowell is refusing to duplicate

> the

> tapes, to put them on fresh tape stock, and of course they won't

> digitalize

> them. So the tapes, if kept at Lowell, will be deteriorated too badly

> to

> even listen to in another five to fifteen years (some tapes will last

> longer, some are almost gone already).

> Then there is the matter of the 2,000 xeroxed Kerouac letters,

> which

> also would be fully available at any other library. Bancroft, Texas,

> etc.,

> show Kerouac's letters every day to scholars without Sampas's

> permission,

> despite his attempts at interference.

> And U Mass, Lowell, itself, made the MEMORY BABE archive fully

> available to scholars till 1995, when Mr. Sampas brought his complaint

> to them.

> There is the further concern of materials disappearing every

> year

> from the MEMORY BABE archive.

> In light of all that, I don't see that I have any choice but a

> lawsuit.

> If you have further thoughts, let me know.

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:06:39 -0700

Reply-To: david@cyberwarecom.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David McClusky <david@CYBERWARECOM.COM>

Organization: CyberWare Communications (http://www.cyberwarecom.com)

Subject: Beat Generation

Hello everyone!

I am new to this group (and the Beat Generation) and I hope to get a

little more educated on the subject.

Right now, I am working on a school essay on the Beat Generation and the

counter-culture movement of the '50s. Specifically, I am exploring the

following questions-- What were the specific causes of this movement?

How can "On the Road" be seen as a critique of 1950s American society?

Does this critique have any validity?

To anyone that can help with these questions-- thanks alot!

David McClusky

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:14:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Jay Pendergast

Jay was a historian in every way. Jay was a reader of Joyce. Jay was a

drinking buddy of Jack's. Jay supported and enthused my idea of a "Kerouac

Quarterly." I remember sitting with Jay sipping a beautiful blend of whiskey

as we discussed literature and art as the fires burned in his warm, cozy

house and the Merrimac River seeping in December in his backyard bobbing

with mallards. Jay told me that Kerouac had him play "Moon River about

thirty times" at Nicky's on the jukebox. Jay was the embodiment of what I

emulate to be...a reader, learner, writer, educator, and sincere friend. I

will miss him tremendously. On Friday...May 23rd he was happy that my first

issue of the Kerouac Quarterly was successful and that he wanted to

contribute more. He has contributed in more ways than one. His spirit, his

vigor, his sincere interest in what I was doing saw me through the

completion of my first publication.....your friend and fellow Lowellian,

Paul....

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:13:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's

May 25, 1997

Antoine Maloney writes:

"I can only imagine the kind of stories your Dad had to tell. Did

he ever talk about whether his Italianess (word?) was recognized and what

kinds of reactions he got? ...Was all your father's traveling on the road or

did he ride the rails as well? Was he going to California to work or just

to go?"

Dear Antoine:

My father left Chicago at age 17 because he wanted to be like Jack

London. He mostly hitchhiked, rode the rails only a little, mostly because

he didn't like the danger of it (Kerouac was afraid of train wheels too,

you'll recall), and later took a tramp steamer from San Francisco to Los

Angeles--after cutting up to Spokane, Washington, to pick apples, where he

hung out with Sad Slim Smith who owned Sad Slim Smith's Super Service

Station, Spokane (true story).

Ironically, he made this trip with his fast-talking, womanizing

buddy (sound familiar?), another Italian from Chicago named Steve Ferrara.

Eventually the magnet of home pulled him back to Illinois, and he

returned to his widowed mother (sound even more familiar?).

As for his being and speaking Italian, it served him well in North

Beach, San Francisco, which in 1927 was just an Italian fishermen's village

at the northern tip of San Francisco. It gives me great satisfaction to

think of my dad, a young man of 17, walking Grant Avenue in North Beach 20

years before Kerouac got there. Of course in those days there were no Beat

coffeehouses, no "finger-poppin' daddies" (a la Lord Buckley), just real

Italian bars and cafes and spaghetti houses.

He left me a couple of photo albums filled with snapshots from those

days in San Francisco, North Beach, the Barbary coast, and the sand dunes of

the Sunset District, where he and his friend boarded in the house of a widow

named Mrs. Miller.

My favorite story of his from those times was how, when he first got

to San Francisco, he was almost broke and desperately needed work. He

applied for a busboy job at the States Cafe, a very popular restaurant

downtown. It had 48 booths, each one named for a state of the union. He

had pulled his old trick from Chicago, of tearing up the "Help Wanted" sign

before going inside, but they told him that he could only work there if he

owned an all-white busboy's uniform. Knowing he couldn't afford to buy one,

he was about to leave down-hearted, when a little Chinese guy, about my

dad's height and weight, walked up and made him an offer.

The Chinese guy said he an extra busboy's uniform. It was dirty

now, but if my dad would have it cleaned and starched, he could wear it till

he earned enough money to buy his own.

And that was how my dad got his first job in San Francisco. They

paid him thirty silver dollars a month, and at the end of the month he

bought his own uniform and returned the Chinese guy's uniform cleaned and

starched. And they remained good friends for the rest of his stay in San

Francisco.

All of which has touched me in a special way, since in 1995, long

after my dad's death, I went to An Hui Province in China to adopt an orphan

girl named Wu Ji. Considering the strange karmic connections in this world,

I sometimes wonder if maybe Wu Ji is a distant relative of that Chinese

busboy who helped my dad.

By the way, you always end with a quote from Utah Phillips. He's a

buddy of mine (he performed at the big benefit concert for Jan Kerouac in

1995), and we both had the same mentor: a one-armed Spanish Civil War

veteran from Chicago named Eddy Balchowsky, who played the meanest one-armed

piano you've ever heard. Utah wrote a great song about him, after hearing

Eddy play Beethoven's MOONLIGHT SONATA one-handed. The song starts: "One

Hand on the Keyboard, and Moonlight Fills the Room...."

All for now. Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:19:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

..., it has nothing to do with

>his archieves, its a damn pissing contest/whose got the bigger balls and

>the rest of the nonsense. Its pure bullshit. Get off your ego trip and

>realize THAT truth.

>Lisa M. Rabey

>Internet and Computer Consultant

>San Francisco, California

>http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye

>**************************************

>General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick.

Dear Lisa, May 25, 1997

I am here on the Beat-List only because of the need to preserve Jack

Kerouac's archives. It has turned into a pissing contest because that is

what Mr. Chaput and Mr. Anstee wanted it to become. They have effectively

killed the discussion of what Sampas is doing with the archives and why, if

he really intends to put them into a library, he has not signed even a

statement of intention in 6 years. They don't want me talking about things

like that, so they call me names and accuse me of various crimes, and then I

answer them back, etc. etc.

Well here's my deal, Lisa, I'll just quite answering their bullshit

charges, and just keep posting the truth as I see it. Maybe some day

someone from "the other side" will appear to argue this thing out

rationally, and give us some hard facts about what Mr. Sampas is doing and

plans to do--rather than just calling me names and saying what a bad person

I am.

By the way, Paul Maher's list from the NY Public Library shows that

they do not own all the versions of even one Kerouac book (published or

unpublished). A scholar who analyzes a work needs everything from the first

notes thru first second and third drafts, and then the galleys. Kerouac

typed several versions of every published book. The NY Public has acquired

only early notebook drafts of some individual books, and they have not even

one complete version of Kerouac's seven most important books: ON THE ROAD,

THE DHARMA BUMS, DR. SAX, VISIONS OF GERARD, VISIONS OF CODY, VANITY OF

DULUOZ, and DESOLATION ANGELS.

This is what we should be talking about.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:24:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

Dear Lisa, May 25, 1997

Excuse me, make that EIGHT of KEROUAC'S MOST IMPORTANT BOOKS that

the New York Public Library has NOT EVEN ONE COMPLETE DRAFT OF:

I forgot to add: they don't have a scrap of THE SUBTERRANEANS either.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:50:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: meesters chaput & nicosia

In-Reply-To: <199705260413.VAA25745@norway.it.earthlink.net>

really appreciated yr memories shared. .

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:02:46 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Frank O'Hara, a poetry.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970525141314.617A-100000@alfred.uib.no>

"Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara

I am not a painter, I am a poet.

Why? I think I would rather be

a painter, but I am not. Well,

for instance, Mike Goldberg

is starting a painting. i drop

"Sit down and have a ddrink" he

says. I drink; we drink. I look

up. "You have SARDINES in it"

"Yes, it needed sometime there"

"Oh." I go and days go by

and I drop in again. The painting

is going on, and I go, and the

days

go by, I drop in. The painting is

finished. "Where's SARDINES?"

All that's left is just

letters, "It was too much", Mike says.

But me? One day I am thinking of

a color: orange. I write a line

about orange. Pretty soon it is a

whole page of words, not lines.

Then another page. There should

so much more, not of orange, of

words, of how terrible orange is

and life. Days go by. It is even

prose, I am a real poet. My poem

is finished and I haven't

mentioned

orange yet. It's twelve poems, I

call

it ORANGES. And one day in a

gallery

I see Mike's painting, called

SARDINES.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:33:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Levi Asher wrote:

> Jerry Cimino wrote:

> > My wife couldn't stand the beats either when we first got married. I think

> > it's got to do with that "he's gonna run off and sow his wild oats leaving

> > stuck at home alone" female thing. Can't imagine why any woman would think

> > that about people like Neal Cassady?

> >

> > Now she's involved in a business where she's talking beat everyday. She

> > really focused in on the women writers, Hettie Jones, Joyce Johnson, Diane

> > DiPrima, Carolyn etc and it turned her around. She especially enjoyed the

> > new Women & the BG recently released.

> Mine is coming around bit by bit too. She really likes listening

> to "Kicks Joy Darkness" (that new Rykodisk CD) for instance, whereas

> I was lukewarm. But that's just because Patti Smith is on it, I

> think ...

> ------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> ###################################

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

Is Star Treak Beat?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:37:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and VIdeotape

Levi Asher wrote:

> Steve Smith wrote:

> > levi and friends: "start going with the flow"???? bullshit. that's the

> > rap weasels the world over use. it's a cop-out. it's the kind of thing

> > that's said when people are sitting on the lawn, way far out there away

> > from passion and the "real" world, if you will. there is no question that i

> Hah, as if it were that easy to be away from passion and the real

> world. Show me the way to free myself of passion and the real world ...

> That's why I do yoga -- if only I could succeed ...

Moving to Kansas is a decent attempt too!

Hope everyone Remembers the right things on Memorial Day.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:49:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: BeatRyder@AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Lowell author-Jay Pendergast

In a message dated 97-05-26 00:01:30 EDT, you write:

> May 25,1997

> Lowell author and friend of Jack Kerouac, Jay Pendergast died unexpectedly

> this afternoon. Jay had just written a story about Jack in Paul Maher's

> premiere issue of the "Kerouac Quarterly" his painting that Jack had given

> him personally what I called "Beatnik Jesus" was on the cover. He was an

> educator that taught English, Irish and American Literature as well as

> History, Writing and Anthropology courses.

This is truly sad news, I took Jay's Speech Course last summer, and it had to

be one

of my best classes of all time. We would listen Jay for whole class

sessions, telling

us about his time in Ireland, doing archaeological digs in the Merrimack

area, the

many famous people he has encountered in his amazing life - I remember

wanting to

rush out into my backyard and dig for bones! He was one of the most

fascinating

people i've ever met. Probably the greatest storyteller. I'll always

remember, as long

as I live, how he encouraged me to write - enthusiastically explaining how

great it is,

just to write a book and have it published, and see people paying money to

read your

words - getting those small checks from the publisher, etc. In fact, I

bought Jay's

book, "The Bend in the River" as a gift for my dad for father's day. Jay

was truly an amazing man, and I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to

know him.

Jeff

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:51:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Jerry Cimino's posts

Dear Beat List:

I just signed on to this list a few days ago, but it seems like a year

ago. The range of emotions has soared and dipped me like I am the

finest of fighter jet plane on an evasive maneuver in the mountains. I

have pulled from my shelf books that have lain dormant for years and

found within them joy and tears that I thought had long since left me.

To find that I am still in touch with them cuts both ways like a knife.

I hope that Ferlinghetti will be in the store to have coffee with me and

I will bask in the glow of a fire lit in me by Homer and fed by the

Legends of King Authur, the story of Ivanhoe (sp), Jason and the search

for the Fleece, the story of Jesus, Catch 22, Ferlinghetti, Corso,

Thomas Wolfe, Jack Kerouac, Gerry Nicosia, Allen Ginsburg, Bob Dylan,

Thoreau, Van Morrison, etc. etc. etc. While I admired Ann's biography

of Kerouac and read it first, I wonder how any person can say that

Nicosia has written the best, or at least one of the two best

biographies of Kerouac.

I would say that it is the best, but will admit that others might prefer

Charter's because it is more flattering, but to me Memory Babe has the

most facts and the most Love in it. Regardless, I am honored to be a

member of a list with Gerry Nicosia. I have also seen messages going

back and forth between Levi Asher and Gerry. I have looked at Levi's

site and find it to be a great web site. One of the best. But, Levi

has yet to answer Gerry's direct questions. Why is that?

I have just read the first in a series of posts by Jerry Cimino about

the list and Gerry. I tend to agree. When I first signed on I asked

several questions that have gone unanswered. One of those troubles me

greatly.

1. In an email response to Gerry, someone asked an open question that

to me said in paraphrased terms:

What about Gerry Nicosia, isn't he a thief because he has sold

photocopies of Kerouac's letters for profit?

I responded to the list and to the poster, whose id I have forgotten,

what letters, where, to whom and how much. I have not heard, nor has

this list heard yet what letters to whom and how much.

If one is not willing to stand behind such an accusation, or if one

lacks the facts to back it up, one should not accuse another, especially

a writer of the integrity of Nicosia of this behavior.

2. There also was a statement by someone to this lists claiming that

Sampas has not sold off piece meal portions of Kerouac's works and

artifacts. Does anyone actually know what Sampas has done. I asked the

question and all I received was a chastisement that I should "do my

homework" or some such and stating that I needed to spell Sampas' name

right. But have I received an answer to the question. Who knows what

Sampas has done and what he has sold? No, I have not seen any such

information forthcoming.

In short, why does Gerry Nicosia post facts and the others respond with

accusations and no facts. I am down with Cimino's post. I am off to

take my children to school, and will respond further in a few minutes

with other points about what I have seen.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:47:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Kerouac's baseball league

Just a thought, but on reading Levi Asher's page on Jack, was he the

sole member of the first fantasy baseball league?

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:53:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Star Trek is not beat

David,

Star Trek is not beat. It is an extension of society. It is more of a

world vision in which Orwell and others are wrong and big brother turns

out to be nice guy after all.

Star Wars comes closer to beat, but at best it was maybe Hip or even

Hep.

To me, Space Balls (Mel Brooks?) was beat! Or, that Outer Limitsor

Twilight Zone where the people got on the space ship and the man then

figures out that the book th aliens brought is a Cook Book. That is

hip. And maybe just maybe Beat and space would be say, The Day the

Earth Stood Still.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:55:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: correction

I said in my addled brain, but not in the message and hereby correct it

to state:

I wonder how any person can say that Nicosia has NOT written the best,

or at least one of the two best biographies of Kerouac.

The omission of three letters can affect the meaning.

I believe Gerry's is the best, because it is full of love and

tenderness, but does not avoid any difficult issues. Others will see

Ann's as the best I am sure. But, anyone else is merely a pretender and

does not approach those two.

So, does Ms Charters post here? If not, does anyone know her? Invite

her to join the list. I get jazzed thinking about Charters and Nicosia

debating the beats and Kerouac. But, remember Nicosia had the courage

to come here and is a blessing to us out of a Gone World.

I remember years ago a law professor speaking somewhat contemptuously of

his colleagues who did not publish. I thought he was just jealous

because they had tenure and did not publish much (he had tenure too, but

worked much harder than they did). I asked him why and he said that if

you are not willing to put your ideas into the public arena and have

them ripped to shreds by your colleagues, then you are intelletually

dishonest and are a coward as that is the way you learn.

Now, I am not saying that Ann Charters or John Sampas has to post their

ideas here. What I am saying is that, regardless of the rest of it all,

Nicosia is a man of courage and conviction. He may be looney as a nut

cake, fruit cake or whatever that device is, but he puts his ideas forth

and allows you do dissect him. And from my experience on the net and

newsgroups, you will be dissected by idiots and genius. He has cast

pearls, it is up to the list to ensure that he did not cast them before

swine.

He is courageous. I have discouraged him because:

1. He can't argue with people who do not state facts.

2. If he has been slandered, then it is best to leave it to the

lawyers. (Hey, I got a plug for me in here too!!! ;-))

3. It must be very distracting to him to have to deal with bs, and he

needs to be about his life's work.

4. I would rather not see him expose his soul on public, as I don't

know who this public is.

But, even though his obvious anger makes me feel that he is wasting his

effort on those who do not deserve it, I admire his candor and

willingness. Are those who speak less than well up to the task to be so

honest and to expose themselves to the same criticism, are they willing

to be dissected in such detail? Where are their facts?

I for one count us to be very rich for Gerry's presence here, would

welcome Ann aboard if she would join and say, if you are unwilling to

back up an attack on Gerry or a defense of Sampas without facts, then

keep it to yourself because Nicosia has stated facts.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:26:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Jerry Cimino's posts

RBK,

We're not always the best hosts when it comes to newcomers. This thread

is not the only example of when that has happened. The emotional level

though may explain why our hosting is particularly poor.

There is a range of emotions involved in this thread - not only those

concerning a hotly contested legal argument being discussed in a

non-legal environment - but also the emotions of grief involved in close

friendships on both sides of what has politely been referred to as a

"feud" and at times compared to a "war".

> I just signed on to this list a few days ago, but it seems like a year

> ago. The range of emotions has soared and dipped me like I am the

> finest of fighter jet plane on an evasive maneuver in the mountains. I

> have pulled from my shelf books that have lain dormant for years and

> found within them joy and tears that I thought had long since left me.

> To find that I am still in touch with them cuts both ways like a knife.

> I hope that Ferlinghetti will be in the store to have coffee with me and

> I will bask in the glow of a fire lit in me by Homer and fed by the

> Legends of King Authur, the story of Ivanhoe (sp), Jason and the search

> for the Fleece, the story of Jesus, Catch 22, Ferlinghetti, Corso,

> Thomas Wolfe, Jack Kerouac, Gerry Nicosia, Allen Ginsburg, Bob Dylan,

> Thoreau, Van Morrison, etc. etc. etc.

It seems to me that these remembrances are wonderful feelings and

connections and fairly appropriate to a Memorial Day Celebration of

Beat-ism. I find myself as a fairly newcomer to both the scene, the

list, and the literature - manically trying to read more and more and

more to get a better sense of the IT that runs through all of these

words. But it is a smooth mania for me and one that I can enjoy quite

well.

While I admired Ann's biography

> of Kerouac and read it first, I wonder how any person can say that

> Nicosia has written the best, or at least one of the two best

> biographies of Kerouac.

I think they are both wonderful. I'm reading them both right now along

with Dharma Lion about Ginsberg. Charters' is a much more empathetic

style and Nicosia's a more detached one. The two in combination is

something of a symphony for me. I don't know why all the ratings need

be done at all. The books say the same thing almost only they say

completely different things at the same time. They are both wonderful

tributes to Kerouac. As was McNally's which was a different style

altogether almost intimate anthropological in nature. I'm looking

forward to others that have been mentioned as well.

> I would say that it is the best, but will admit that others might prefer

> Charter's because it is more flattering, but to me Memory Babe has the

> most facts and the most Love in it. Regardless, I am honored to be a

> member of a list with Gerry Nicosia.

He is a wonderful resource. When he has time to discuss matters

off-estate, i find his insights beautiful to read. I can't wait for the

Vietnam Vets book. I'm certain that he will tell that story and its

many plots with incredible technique.

All that said, i have to admit that I'm somewhat tired of the estate

discussion. It seems an important thread but not incredibly significant

to me. None of the libraries under consideration are ones I will ever

be near - i doubt. I doubt that I will ever return to the "scholarly

arena". I respect the desire of scholars to desire an archive like the

one suggested for the NYPL, but it doesn't seem to be the only audience

for Kerowhackos around this beautiful land.

I have also seen messages going

> back and forth between Levi Asher and Gerry. I have looked at Levi's

> site and find it to be a great web site. One of the best. But, Levi

> has yet to answer Gerry's direct questions. Why is that?

Have to ask Levi. I thought that some of the questions were answered

but the answers were unacceptable to Gerry and so it went ....

> I have just read the first in a series of posts by Jerry Cimino about

> the list and Gerry. I tend to agree. When I first signed on I asked

> several questions that have gone unanswered. One of those troubles me

> greatly.

> 1. In an email response to Gerry, someone asked an open question that

> to me said in paraphrased terms:

> What about Gerry Nicosia, isn't he a thief because he has sold

> photocopies of Kerouac's letters for profit?

as i recall, the photocopy letter originally was a bad joke in the

middle of a post. that's how i read it at least. it has since blew up.

> I responded to the list and to the poster, whose id I have forgotten,

> what letters, where, to whom and how much. I have not heard, nor has

> this list heard yet what letters to whom and how much.

it would be letters in the Lowell archive as far as I can tell. letters

associated with the Memory Babe biography. i think that the price

sounded reasonable considering Gerry's expenses in working on the book.

> If one is not willing to stand behind such an accusation, or if one

> lacks the facts to back it up, one should not accuse another, especially

> a writer of the integrity of Nicosia of this behavior.

i think it was a poor joke that wouldn't die. but that's my failing

memory.

> 2. There also was a statement by someone to this lists claiming that

> Sampas has not sold off piece meal portions of Kerouac's works and

> artifacts. Does anyone actually know what Sampas has done. I asked the

> question and all I received was a chastisement that I should "do my

> homework" or some such and stating that I needed to spell Sampas' name

> right. But have I received an answer to the question. Who knows what

> Sampas has done and what he has sold? No, I have not seen any such

> information forthcoming.

I've learned to have some difficulty with this part of the whole feud.

It seems that until the courts determine otherwise - which is uncertain

at best - that this stuff is Sampas' private property. I don't think

he's accountable to any of us concerning what he does with his

property. He could have a huge garage sale - like the Kennedy children

- but it doesn't sound as though that has happened.

> In short, why does Gerry Nicosia post facts and the others respond with

> accusations and no facts. I am down with Cimino's post. I am off to

> take my children to school, and will respond further in a few minutes

> with other points about what I have seen.

My impression is that Gerry while an excellent scholar and writer is not

willing to see any grain of truth in anything in this besides his

viewpoint. That is merely an impression. My impression is that people

don't post anything worthwhile because, it won't be good enough for

Gerry if they do. And when they do, there is often at least innuendo

that John Sampas is pulling their strings like puppets.

The dialogue in this thread has broken down from both sides and every

angle in-between. My impression is it is a case of emotionally charged

true believers involved in a fairly messy and intricate legal action and

that the animosity will probably not end after the legal action or

actions are decided. It will be one for the literary historians to

write about some day down the road.

I hope that i've filled in some of the details. I am very hesitant to

do so for fear of being attacked for having provided misinformation.

These are what I've gathered from the thread, my impressions of the

thread, information as I recall it now, and i don't know that they

necessarily have any correspondence with the truth (whatever that is)...

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:31:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: correction

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> I said in my addled brain, but not in the message and hereby correct it

> to state:

> I wonder how any person can say that Nicosia has NOT written the best,

> or at least one of the two best biographies of Kerouac.

> The omission of three letters can affect the meaning.

As one of the most addled brains on the planet it was easy to read past

the addled-typo and understand the context. i really don't think anyone

suggests Nicosia is not an incredible scholar. When I read his

biography I say "Wow - how'd he find that out - in my head a lot". In

the others, I say different words inside my head. The symphony of

reading multiple biographies comes out with this chorus in my head.

Wow-Jack/Wow-Jack/beeeeeeeatttttttitiffffffic terrific WOW - Jack

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:33:56 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry's Dad's story

Gerry,

Thank you for the vivid post describing your dad's time in San

Francisco. It sounds like you did what too many of us neglect to do; really

quiz your Dad about his youth. Free advice to everyone on the list....ask

your mom and Dad and aunts and uncles and grandparents what their childhood,

adolescence, and coming of age was like; endlessly rewardimg as we can see!

Was the aside about Lord Buckley a tip of the hat to my frequently

broadcast interest in the Lord, or did it just trip off your tongue? Any

evidence of Buckley intersecting with Kerouac or the others? Charles

Plymell mentioned remembering Buckley from Los Angeles ...days of the

old Crackerbox Palace. He was truly a hipster! I've read Kerouac's

description of seeing slim Gaillard, but have always been curious about any

awareness of Lord Buckley (especially given the close association with

Charlie Parker) and Harry 'the Hipster' Gibson ("Who Put the Benzedrine in

Mrs' Murpht's Ovaltine").

Thanks again. Any idea who Navrotsky is or if I've spelt his name

correctly? The quotation as i heard it was attributed to them jointly. It's

a good one. Do you know Jo Grant? Is he / was he a labor organizer?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:37:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

Gerry, I think you are on more solid ground with this issue than the other.

There are huge chunks of your archive that are irreplaceable -- especially

the tape recordings, which must be preserved at all costs, even if the actual

access/rights issue isn't sorted out for years to come. Preserve the tapes at

least!

(ASIDE: I can, for example, see that someone who had granted you an

interview back in the mid-1970's, might now be a bit surprised/troubled to

discover that the entire interview was potentially now available in complete

form, either audio or transcript, to the public -- that is, I can realize

that one of your interviewees might not have forseen such an eventuality when

they originally granted the interview as part of helping you with your book.

I say, I can sort of SEE someone feeling that way, though I imagine most of

the interviewees don't care either way, and if asked would readily grant

permission. I am thinking of someone like Helen Weaver, for example, who

might very well be writing her own memoirs of her time with JK, and therefore

not feel comfortable -- I pick Helen W. just as an hypothetical example

though, you understand.)

The original letters, too, even in 1987 deserved extra special treatment, and

it's appalling to think that they have somehow been allowed to disappear into

the void. (See, we can/do agree on some things!)

The xeroxed letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --

entirely aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in

retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first place,

knowing that many of them (originals) are the property of other libraries.

Just as an example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April, 1952

letter from JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's covered

with margin notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as

pointers to the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge are

the following words:

" THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA

UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES.

This copy must be returned to Special Collections (801 Butler

Library) at the completion of the reader's use."

Whilst it's arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed your use

of this material, I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was actually

put there to preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at some

later date, to another institution --no? It renders your sale of such

material to the library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy. I even wonder if

this wasn't one of the reasons that most other insitutions you apporached

were not interested? (I assume your archive included this material -- on p.

35 of the list you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters of JK to

Allen Ginsberg"-- and I assume that comparable letters, from other libraries

came with similar restrictions.)

I guess I'm just suggesting that, in some respects at least, some of the

content of your MB archive is rather problematical, legally speaking. Of

course this in no way excuses any mishandling of the remainder of the

archive, or any (alleged) Sampas interference in the running of the archive

viv-a-vis scholarly access.

Just a thought. CHEERS Rod

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:35:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: David's post

David:

Thanks for the post. I have reviewed most of the posts that I can find

on these issues and welcome receiving copies of older posts back channel

if anyone saved them.

On the issue of selling letters:

>From what you said, it was a "joke" that got turned around and out of

proportion. I can see that happening and do not take issue with that.

But again, did Gerry sell photocopies to Umass at Lowell. My impression

is that he sold his work and donated the rest as he had no right to sell

it. If that is wrong, then I may be wrong, but in light of that

position, if I am correct noone may claim that Jerry sold Kerouac's

letters for gain. He donated them.

On the archives, my concern is the lack of availability and deterioation

in the tapes. That is a valid issue for us if we are to have free

information about Kerouac.

I am tired of draft talk on the Celtic list. This thread is much

better.

Love you, mean it.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:44:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: David's Impressions

David,

Thanks for your post summarizing your impressions of the estate

debate. It was excellent having neutral ground to test my own

recollections/impressions against.

I'm hoping to get back quickly enough to the list to encourage Gerry

and the other comabattants to resist the temptation - great as it might be!

- to reply with "clarifications". I thinks id would help greatly to have

other "impressions' posted as well to see if we can't see the middle ground

that I'm sure exists - the "no man's land?" Her's hoping!

Thanks again.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:44:14 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry's Dad's story

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> Gerry,

> Thank you for the vivid post describing your dad's time in San

> Francisco. It sounds like you did what too many of us neglect to do; really

> quiz your Dad about his youth. Free advice to everyone on the list....ask

> your mom and Dad and aunts and uncles and grandparents what their childhood,

> adolescence, and coming of age was like; endlessly rewardimg as we can see!

> Was the aside about Lord Buckley a tip of the hat to my frequently

> broadcast interest in the Lord, or did it just trip off your tongue? Any

> evidence of Buckley intersecting with Kerouac or the others? Charles

> Plymell mentioned remembering Buckley from Los Angeles ...days of the

> old Crackerbox Palace. He was truly a hipster! I've read Kerouac's

> description of seeing slim Gaillard, but have always been curious about any

> awareness of Lord Buckley (especially given the close association with

> Charlie Parker) and Harry 'the Hipster' Gibson ("Who Put the Benzedrine in

> Mrs' Murpht's Ovaltine").

> Thanks again. Any idea who Navrotsky is or if I've spelt his name

> correctly? The quotation as i heard it was attributed to them jointly. It's

> a good one. Do you know Jo Grant? Is he / was he a labor organizer?

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

I just saw my Dad Saturday night for the first time in months. If I'd

read Gerry's story before that Pop would have probably got a good

quizzing. I know that he used to hitch from Detroit to Sterling Kansas

and back for college in the early 1950s. The few times I asked him

about it years ago - it brought no stories - just "it's what i had to

do, it was the only way I could afford to go back and forth." But I've

also heard tell that my Ma's family in Northeastern Kansas thought my

Dad was too wild - so I have a feeling that there are stories in there

somewhere to be dug out ... :) My brother will be up from Arizona in a

couple weeks and we'll be at my Dad's for our step-sister's wedding.

Perhaps we can gang tackle him and tie him up and force the stories out

of him. Or I can tell him that if he doesn't fess up, I'll start

creating my own legends which he might not like to well and maybe that

will bring it out of him. To hear him talk it wasn't that much

different than walking down to a dime store or something. Maybe by the

early 50s that was true. I really don't know cuz if I was around in

some former incarnation, my memory is cloudy.

I loved Gerry's story too !!!!! Made me think of my Dad more than Jack

or Gerry's Dad but sometimes that's the way those stories go.

take care all,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:57:55 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: David's post

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> David:

> Thanks for the post. I have reviewed most of the posts that I can find

> on these issues and welcome receiving copies of older posts back channel

> if anyone saved them.

> On the issue of selling letters:

> >From what you said, it was a "joke" that got turned around and out of

> proportion. I can see that happening and do not take issue with that.

> But again, did Gerry sell photocopies to Umass at Lowell. My impression

> is that he sold his work and donated the rest as he had no right to sell

> it. If that is wrong, then I may be wrong, but in light of that

> position, if I am correct noone may claim that Jerry sold Kerouac's

> letters for gain. He donated them.

i have no access to the formal agreements with Lowell U. to know whether

the package was divided between sale and donations. while I know little

of this, i could understand sampas' concerns (a little) for letters

which are to be published in forthcoming collections. but once again,

it seems that is something where all sense of proportion has been lost

and Jack's memory suffers for it.

> On the archives, my concern is the lack of availability and deterioation

> in the tapes. That is a valid issue for us if we are to have free

> information about Kerouac.

Well it pisses me off - what to do though? Unless part of the

sale/donation agreement required the Library to make these upgrades it

doesn't seem they can be forced to do so. I've never thought much of

letter campaigns, but perhaps a letter campaign on that specific issue

would be worthwhile.

I also think Bill Gargan's notion of helping in gaining the permission

slips (somehow they remind me of high school "hall passes") seems worth

trying.

> I am tired of draft talk on the Celtic list. This thread is much

> better.

This thread is full of rancor but that one is full of textbook cases of

delusional thought. we must pick our poisons carefully .... )

I'm off to read another forty or so in Dharma Lion then back to Memory

Babe for around 75-100 pages.

Memorial Day

What do we remember on a

day

sanctified by the State

for remembrances?

Do we remember the soldiers

lost in foreign wars

and relatives we never

met?

Certainly, these are appropriate

remembrances.

But my notions of remembrance

are more twisted.

I remember the families

I created in

the Mental Hospitals

where all were

lonely

and all seemed to

breakdown

at Holiday after

Holiday.

I remember the

friends I've had

for years

who I never

met

in life

but know

deeply

in my

connection

and

identification

with their

words.

I put Skeletons

on the CD

player

and

sit back in

my rusty

recliner

and

attempt

to remember

scenes

from life

that seem

so far away

friends

from here

and there

scattered

victims of our own

insanities

and I

remember

most of all

that

God is Pooh Bear.

David Rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:29:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Post on archives

I have not read this entire post yet by Rod Antsee and can not address

the question about Columbia University but the post states this:

The xeroxed letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --

entirely aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in

retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first

place,

knowing that many of them (originals) are the property of other

libraries.

Just as an example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April,

1952

letter from JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's

covered

with margin notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as

pointers to the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge

are

the following words:

<snip>

Rod:

I just posted to the list, or backchanneled some one about this. It is

my understanding that these "photocopies" were not "purchased" by

UMASS-Lowell. They were donated because Gerry could not sell them and

the purchase price was substantially reduced. So, if I am correct, we

should stop categorizing these letters as being purchased.

Gerry:

Can you comment on my position that the photocopied letters were not

sold and were donated? Am I correct? If not, please set me straight as

soon as possible.

Now, I will finish the post before sending and see if I have an idea on

the Columbia question.

>I even wonder if this wasn't one of the reasons that most other

insitutions you apporached

>were not interested?

Rod:

What is the factual basis for this statement? I am informed and believe

that there are several preeiment universities that would accept Gerry's

archives as is and open them to the public and preserve the tapes.

Please post the source of your comments. What universities have

expressed a lack of interest in Gerry's archives? What is the name of

the librarian? Do you have facts? If there is such a University, has

it or its librarian had contact with the Sampas family? Have they been

threatened by Sampas? I am not willing to accept a conclusory statement

like this by you about a great biographer. If you do not have facts to

back it up, you should not post things like this that could demean him

and his work. I am not intending this as a flame, but I have asked you

and others repeartedly to give me facts please. And I will continue to

search for them in your post.

Rod, you said:

>or any (alleged) Sampas interference in the running of the archive

>viv-a-vis scholarly access.

In an article I have from the Sun, by David Perry it is stated as either

facts or quotes from Martha Mayo:

"But since a Connecticut woman called the Morgan Center 18 months ago to

request that the public not be allowed to hear her interview with

Nicosia, the tapes have sat two steel file cabinet drawers."

1. Who is the woman and why did she call? What did she say? Does

she have the legal right to make this request? If she gave an interview

and knew that it might be published, there is no reason that Gerry can't

just publish all of these tapes as is and in toto. Then, no one can say

a thing about it.

Hey Gerry, what do you think about publishing all of the tapes. Call it

Nicosia's Watergate Tapes? Then it is out there and no one can say a

thing! Just a thought.

II.

" University policy requires that taped interviews in its archives must

have the written permission of the subject, or heirs, to be made

public. This rule also applies to transcriptions."

Again, if there is no law that requires this, then change the damn

policy or get the collection somewhere where this is not the policy.

III.

>From Mayo

"It was my understanding that permission was given. It was implicit

that had been done between the author and the people interviewed. But

people didn't know it would be placed in a public institution. I never

asked him if it had been done, and he didn't lie to me or anything. I

just ... believed it had been done."

The Connecticut caller -- whom Mayo declined to name -- "told me Gerry

had never gotten permission to include it," said Mayo, "or that the tape

would be available to the public ... . That's when we knew we had a

problem."

Mayo said two persons have since called to close off access to their

interviews. She also declined to name them.

.....

Mayo said there's little interest in the collection,

......

Because the Kerouac estate controls the copyright to Kerouac's writing,

visitors to the Mogan Center may read the letters in the collection and

may make notes from them, but may not photocopy them without estate

permission. Center director Mayo said Sampas approached her about two

years ago and told her of the copyright law.

"You can't go around copying people's letters without premission," said

Sampas. "I don't want all those letters flying around. They're all

copyrighted by the estate."

He's concerned that giving people free access to Kerouac's papers will

result in them appearing in "books and things--and that's ripping off

the estate. Anybody who wants a copy of any of those letters needs my

permission. That's standard procedure.

Now Rod, that is clear that Sampas has contacted the Lowell Mass library

and said that nobody may copy what, Jack's letters mailed to third

parties. Does the estate own copyright to that? I don't know, but I

intend to know real soon and when I have completed my research, I will

say that Sampas better own the rights to stop people from photocopying

these letters etc. Else, he may have interfered in other's rights to

access without having the right to do so.

And give me a break here. How can the head of a collection of a library

negotiate the purchase of a collection like this and not know if

permission has been granted to the author. Funny, Nicosia can still

publish every word on every tape and yet, I can't hear them because of

the policy of the Lowell library? Come on, I think we are being conned

here and I now intend to find out

Rod,

This article dated June 10, 1996 is just the library trying to make

Gerry out to be a bad guy. Nowhere do they cite a law or anything that

substantiates a thing she says. And she won't identify the persons.

Who are they? Why not id them? And what right of privacy do you have

to an interview that you gave in hopes that it would be published so all

the world could see that you knew Jack Kerouac? Again, this is not

right.

As the bard said years ago in Hamlet:

There is something rotten in Denmark.

Again, I do appreciate the fact that you agree with Gerry on the

maintenace of the tapes, I believe you yield too easily on the issue of

removal of such obstacles. If Sampas is wrong, then we all should tell

him to get out of others business.

Peace,

Gerry,

In addition to publishing all the tapes, and they be condensed to cd rom

so that the tapes can be sold with the book?

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:30:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Judith Kampfner <judith@WELL.COM>

Subject: From Nick W-W re Letters

Comments: cc: nweir-w@nwu.edu

Borrowing my wife's e-mail as I'm not at work this Memorial Day...here's my

understanding re letters and libraries.

There are two very different issues at work here. One is copyright, the

other is the right to read material in a library. It is certainly true in

the US that copyright exists in letters and that you would need the

permission of both the sender and the recipient to use the letter in a

book, or to quote from it. The same would be true of audio interviews.

(this is not the case in, say, Germany, where we have our own dipute with

the Heidegger estate - if you think this one is nasty, believe me, you've

seen nothing. There the sender of the letter alone has copyright).

However, I don't think that's the real issue here, since we're talking

about access to reading the letters, not quoting them. Any library has a

right to restrict access to a valuable archive to bona-fide scholars or

whoever it wants, and once they have taken possession of an archive I guess

they can make their own rules. I think the permission business (them

claiming that in order to look at the letters you need permission clips) is

bogus though. But I will check next week with the Music Librarian here at

NU who can confirm this.

Gerry (if I may), I do think they're yanking your chain about the legality

of selling the letters to deflect you from your main point, and if I may

say so you do tend to jump at these distractions a bit easily. Most

libraries would welcome the oportunity to purchase a collection put

together for research purposes, and although you don't have copyright in

the pieces obviously, you have collected them and that in itself is a

bona-fide thing to sell. In the same way as a writer can claim copyright on

the selection and editing of a group of articles or essays even if they

don't have copyright in the actual articles.

I guess in your sale to UM Lowell you should have had them sign something

about open access and proper maintenance of the materials, both to stop

them deteriorating and stop them being stolen. It sounds from what you say

at best very sloppy and perhaps more suspicious than that - I'm very sorry

about it.

I will check up with the archive librarians here and report back. I hope

this doesn't confuse everyone even more.

And, Rinaldo, I don't think any of that Cage archive is on the web at all -

they're still working their way through it all. I will check up for you

though.

Nick W-W

Judith Kampfner

Midwest News and Features

3813 N. Alta Vista Terrace, Chicago IL 60613

ph 773 296 9590: fax 773 296 1692

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:49:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick

Nick,

Thanks for the comment on the right to use a letter. I am going to do

some research on that issue. How does fair use affect this copyright

rule? If you are correct, it may be that Sampas can prevent the library

from allowing copying for commercial reasons. But as to copying by a

scholar, then, can that not be allowed under fair use?

Sampas can sue anyone that uses copyrighted material for commercial use

in violation of the copyright laws. Publishers will not do that

anyway. That is not a real concern.

What is a real concern is who stole materials from Lowell and what has

Lowell done to get the material back?

Just a thought.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:04:16 -0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: west <anwest@UP.NET>

Subject: Re: Bush

>Hillary, no, Bill yes,

Bentz, you really consider Bill beat? I always considered him more

not-quite beat.

west

I belong to the blank generation

and I can take or leave it each time

-Richard Hell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:29:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Peter Milo <cva38@PROLOG.NET>

Organization: Micron Electronics, Inc.

Subject: Re: hello

Hi Amy

I'm sort of new on this list but the portable beat reader is a good

source on kerouac. In their they have the piece he wrote called "The

essentials of spontanous prose" or something like that which might be

helpful to you

Peater

(really Peter but this is a more individual spelling)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:32:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Tears once again ....

Well, in something of a remembrance day ritual

i put on Lou Reed's Magic and Loss

and

screened through

slowly

the tribute page from

the Beat-L

at Literary Kicks.

Mayonaise Soda in my

water glass

kept me going

reading these words

once again

that i hadn't seen for

many

many months.

i was a babe to this list

when Allen died.

now the names connected

with the poems

and many

words of tribute

and Lou

somewhere deep in the

back of my brain ...

and then i got

to the first

post about

Allen's last phone call.

the line about how he always

cared about other folks feelings

so much

and the tears

streamed

down

from my eyes over my cheeks

and i could

hear Lou's music

of Eulogy

faintly in the

background...

the air conditioner

turns off

and the tears don't.

i slowly scroll

through the

rest of the page

type this note

and am heading outside

for a camel light

and some

sun.....

david rhaesa

salina kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:00:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

>The xeroxed letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --

>entirely aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in

>retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first place,

>knowing that many of them (originals) are the property of other libraries.

>Just as an example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April, 1952

>letter from JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's covered

>with margin notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as

>pointers to the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge are

>the following words:

> " THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA

>UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES.

> This copy must be returned to Special Collections (801 Butler

>Library) at the completion of the reader's use."

>Whilst it's arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed your use

>of this material, I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was actually

>put there to preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at some

>later date, to another institution --no? It renders your sale of such

>material to the library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy. I even wonder if

>this wasn't one of the reasons that most other insitutions you apporached

>were not interested? (I assume your archive included this material -- on p.

>35 of the list you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters of JK to

>Allen Ginsberg"--

Dear Rod, May 26, 1997

Boy, kiddo, you sure are trying to get back at me for revealing to

everyone on the Beat-List that you kaffee-klatsched with John Sampas and

bought up numerous pieces of the Kerouac archive for your own collection.

Let's stop lying here, Rod. I really am getting tired of it from

you guys.

What I sent you was a complete list of MY RESEARCH MATERIALS. It

was not a list of what I sold to U Mass, Lowell. NONE OF THE XEROXES OF

KEROUAC'S LETTERS TO GINSBERG WERE SOLD TO U MASS, LOWELL. IT WOULD HAVE

BEEN A VIOLATION OF MY AGREEMENT WITH COLUMBIA, AND I WAS WELL AWARE OF THAT.

NONE OF THE XEROXES I SOLD TO LOWELL WERE THE PROPERTY OF OTHER

LIBRARIES. GOT THAT?

(I used "sold" not to mean "sold" as you would sell peanuts on the

corner, as Chaput implies, but "sold" meaning they were within the huge body

of the MEMORY BABE archive, which was transferred en bloc to U Mass, Lowell,

for the sum of $7,500.)

It is also not true that "most other institutions I approached were

not interested." All of them were, including Bancroft at Berkeley, but at

the time Lowell had the best offer--not just in terms of money, but in terms

of what APPEARED TO BE accessibility to Kerouac scholars. I chose what

seemed the best university archive for my collection, and yes, money was a

part of the decision (just as money was a part of the decision for Ginsberg

in placing his collection at Stanford--you have a bone to pick with him

about that?).

Let's also tell the Beat List folk, since we're outing everything

here, how you happened to get a copy of that letter of Kerouac to Ginsberg

which I xeroxed (legally) from Columbia. You didn't send a private eye to

sleuth thru my collection. I voluntarily sent it to you to HELP YOU WITH A

SCHOLARLY ESSAY YOU WERE WRITING on the censorship and poor editing of

Kerouac's SELECTED LETTERS by Ann Charters. It was in the form of scholarly

assistance--which I have done for hundreds of other scholars on this planet,

FREE OF CHARGE.

Why don't you guys ever bring up all the hundreds of hours of my

time I'VE DONATED TO THE SCHOLARLY COMMUNITY--ALL THE LETTERS AND PHONE

CALLS I'VE ANSWERED FROM YOUNG PEOPLE AND STUDENTS WITH QUESTIONS, ALL THE

SPEAKING GIGS I'VE DONE FOR FREE, ETC.--INSTEAD OF ALL THIS SHIT YOU KEEP

POSTING ABOUT HOW MERCENARY I AM?

Moreover, you and Chaput keep dodging the main points I've been

making about Lowell's sudden arbitrary decision to close the archive (after

complaints from Sampas):

1) Kerouac letters are freely available to be read, studied, and to

have notes taken on them at every other major library that holds them.

2) Bancroft, Texas, and many other libraries have told me that they

would have no problem allowing access to the taped materials that were made

for use in my biography. If someone like John Sampas objected loudly enough

to his particular tapes being heard, they might remove those particular

tapes from the collection (out of courtesy) and RETURN THEM TO ME.

Lowell has not offered to return the complained-of tapes to me,

however.

Moreover, Lowell does not have to worry about losing its investment.

Several major libraries have offered to reimburse Lowell for their costs, in

order to get the collection out of Lowell, but the university also refuses

to sell (divest itself of) the collection.

I wonder how much fear of John Sampas has to do with that.

I.e., Lowell will NOT:

1) allow free access to the collection

2) properly care for the tapes and other materials

3) allow another library to buy them

YOU TELL ME WHAT IS GOING ON, MR. SMARTY PANTS ANSTEE. Only this time,

check your facts before you open your mouth.

Best always,

Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:48:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.

In-Reply-To: <v03007800afae4406b877@[156.46.45.10]>

thinking about kerouac

or,

spontaneous sidewalk

what is it with me, lately?

i keep buying books.

i'm poor

but would rather go hungry

than be hungry for words

i want to be a writer.

i read lots of writers

lots of poetry

lots of prose

lots of writers writing about writing

and critics who write about

them,

until i get to feeling like the quaker oats man

who is pictured on the label

holding another quaker box

with a little

quaker man, holding,

you know?

i mean, when does he ever eat the oatmeal?

i throw over my captors,

selfconsciouness and fear,

and break free

and up from the depths of my

inarticulate soul

the voices spoke to me of kerouac,

and

word sketches writ down in the moment.

now i stop all thought,

and, suddenly,

finally !

i am left with IT!

jack 's

spontaneous prose

writ in humble small pad

full of word sketches

novels

poetry

prose

and

emboldened,

out i go, tiny pad in pocket

looking avidly for

the perfect

poetic moment

to capture in words,

a stupenousllyspontaenously

experience of IT

and so, i go, casting

eyes to sky

and down to

earth

& cement.

i walk quite a bit,

and then further.

no epiphanies.

my pad begins to sweat.

i stop.

and then i look about.

i am standing

in the midst

of a cheery

hop scotch

scrawled in blue chalk.

i had my note pad ready

to capture it all,

a fine lot of writing

to be done in the moment,

a frenzy of scribbling

of making it new,

until, quite suddenly,

despite lingering winter chill

i stood enveloped in the warmth of

twilight days

of summer.

mothers' voices on the breeze

giving last call for play

with

just

one

game

of hop scotch,

marbles, jumprope

kick the can ... (allly ally outs in free.....

voices called out

in my mind)

on a sunlit afternoon this spring

i stood in twilight summer haze

feeling once again

dirty hands and sticky faces,

bare feet on dewy grass...

touch

taste

sight

sounds

alive!

i stood before the chalked outlines

scribbling furiously.

ithen dashed off

to read my pocket ful of

sketched

impressions,

literary

allusions,

and all things real with potency.

yes, i feel like a real poet now.

as i

sit down excitedly

to transcribe my notes

and fashion a pome.

i open my notebook :

no words at all,

only the sketch

of hopscotch blocks,

blue chalk and all.

@mc/517/97

revised 5/26/97

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:02:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Tony's Story and Gerry's

Gerry:

What a great story. Karma indeed.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:11:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Gerry's reply

I have now read Gerry's reply. I have a couple of follow up questions

and comments here. First, it appears that I was wrong to assume that

the letters from Columbia were "donated" to Lowell. Apparently, they

were not sold either. They were not sent to Lowell by Gerry at all!

So, that leads to more questions for Rod Anstee:

Exactly what is your point here Rod, Why did you make a post to this

list designed to imply that Gerry had done something improper. To

avoid confusion, you said:

Rod Anstee wrote:

> Gerry, I think you are on more solid ground with this issue than the

> other.

> There are huge chunks of your archive that are irreplaceable --

> especially

> the tape recordings, which must be preserved at all costs, even if the

> actual

> access/rights issue isn't sorted out for years to come. Preserve the

> tapes at

> least!

> (ASIDE: I can, for example, see that someone who had granted you an

> interview back in the mid-1970's, might now be a bit

> surprised/troubled to

> discover that the entire interview was potentially now available in

> complete

> form, either audio or transcript, to the public -- that is, I can

> realize

> that one of your interviewees might not have forseen such an

> eventuality when

> they originally granted the interview as part of helping you with your

> book.

> I say, I can sort of SEE someone feeling that way, though I imagine

> most of

> the interviewees don't care either way, and if asked would readily

> grant

> permission. I am thinking of someone like Helen Weaver, for example,

> who

> might very well be writing her own memoirs of her time with JK, and

> therefore

> not feel comfortable -- I pick Helen W. just as an hypothetical

> example

> though, you understand.)

> The original letters, too, even in 1987 deserved extra special

> treatment, and

> it's appalling to think that they have somehow been allowed to

> disappear into

> the void. (See, we can/do agree on some things!)

> The xeroxed letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --

> entirely aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised,

> in

> retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first

> place,

> knowing that many of them (originals) are the property of other

> libraries.

> Just as an example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8

> April, 1952

> letter from JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's

> covered

> with margin notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves,

> as

> pointers to the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one

> edge are

> the following words:

> " THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA

> UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES.

> This copy must be returned to Special Collections (801 Butler

> Library) at the completion of the reader's use."

> Whilst it's arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed

> your use

> of this material, I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was

> actually

> put there to preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at

> some

> later date, to another institution --no? It renders your sale of such

> material to the library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy. I even

> wonder if

> this wasn't one of the reasons that most other insitutions you

> apporached

> were not interested? (I assume your archive included this material --

> on p.

> 35 of the list you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters

> of JK to

> Allen Ginsberg"-- and I assume that comparable letters, from other

> libraries

> came with similar restrictions.)

> I guess I'm just suggesting that, in some respects at least, some of

> the

> content of your MB archive is rather problematical, legally speaking.

> Of

> course this in no way excuses any mishandling of the remainder of the

> archive, or any (alleged) Sampas interference in the running of the

> archive

> viv-a-vis scholarly access.

> Just a thought. CHEERS Rod

I.I am thinking of someone like Helen Weaver, for example, whomight very

well be writing her own memoirs of her time with JK, and therefore

not feel comfortable -- I pick Helen W. just as an hypothetical example

though, you understand.

Question:

Now Rod, Is Helen Weaver a real person? Do you know her? Where does

she live? Has she ever called the library at Lowell to tell them not to

allow access to her tapes? If she is a real person, why would you use

her name in a hypothetical? It appears that if Helen Weaver is a real

person then you may in fact have knowledge of her intentions. Why not

just say that Joan Doe may be writing a book?

II:

The xeroxed letters, on the other hand, present a difficult problem --

entirely aside from any Sampas angle. In a way I am quite surprised, in

retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to purchase these in the first

place,

knowing that many of them (originals) are the property of other

libraries.

Just as an example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8 April,

1952

letter from JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's

covered

with margin notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as

pointers to the eventual text in MEMORY BABE -- but stamped on one edge

are

the following words:

" THIS IS A PHOTOCOPY OF ORIGINAL MATERIALS IN THE COLUMBIA

UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES.

This copy must be returned to Special Collections (801 Butler

Library) at the completion of the reader's use."

Rod:

You have posted to this list two facts:

1. That Martha Mayo purchased this letter despite the restrictions on

the face of the letter.

2. That Gerry Nicosia sold it to the Library despite the restrictions

on the face of the letter.

Questioins:

This implys, no states, that they have both violated the law. Is the

letter of which you speak in the collection at Lowell? Does it have

Gerry's notes on it? Was it sold to Lowell? If not, when will you post

your apology to both Martha Mayo and Gerry? For your information, I am

printing out a copy of your post and mailing it to Martha Mayo and will

ask her to respond to me in writing that I can reproduce and post here

to clarify this issue. I will send her both of my posts as well. I

will not send her Gerry's. I will post the letter to the list when it

is written. I don't have her address but assume that I can get it.

III.

Whilst it's arguable, I guess, that you haven't, as yet, completed your

use

of this material, I'm pretty sure this statement on the document was

actually

put there to preclude you (anyone) from subsequently SELLING it, at some

later date, to another institution --no? It renders your sale of such

material to the library in Lowell in 1987 somewhat dodgy.

Question:

Was this letter sold to Lowell? Was the sale to Lowell in any way

whatsoever "dodgy" and if so, in what way and specifically please?

Rod you say a lot and yet, I see nothing but your conclusions without

any supporting facts. It seems as if you are saying negative things

about Gerry but in a way that you can try to claim later that they were

"honest" mistakes and not intended to defame him. But if your

conclusion that he sold the restricted materials to Lowell is not true,

then you have already, in my opinon defamed both he and Martha Mayo and

with what proof. I await your public response. I don't know if Gerry

sold them or not, but that is why I am writing Martha Mayo.

IV.

(I assume your archive included this material -- on p.

35 of the list you sent me years ago, it lists "266 pages of letters of

JK to

Allen Ginsberg"-- and I assume that comparable letters, from other

libraries

came with similar restrictions.)

Question:

Why would you make say this without knowing? Now you have said that

Gerry has sold other restricted materials. Man, what is going on in

your mind. If you are wrong, this is terrible. If you are right, why

don't you come right out and say, I have been to Lowell and reviewed the

collection, Gerry sold these letters from Columbia etc and they are

items 1,2,3 etc of the collection? Where is the proof to back this up

man?

I know the internet is a great place to exchange ideas, but to make

these accusations and then say, well I assumed this, well you should not

do that.

Come forth with facts or leave this thread alone Rod. It is not right

to accuse by innuendo.

And while we are on the subject, Rod, you admitted that the letter you

got was from Gerry.

>Just as an example, I have in front of me a xerox of part of an 8

April, 1952

>letter from JK to AG. It's a xerox you must have sent to me, and it's

covered

>with margin notes in your hand -- interesting, in and of themselves, as

>pointers to the eventual text in MEMORY BABE --

Why did Gerry send this to you? Did you request his assistance? Were

you working on a project? Has Gerry ever answered any questions from

you?

If Gerry sent that to you in private correspondence, then I personally

can have no respect for you. In the South we live by a code, and it may

be antiquated, but you never, never take something obtained in

friendship and use it against that friend. That is as low as you can

get down here. Maybe where you come from, that is ok, but not in my

book. And by the way, I have done my homework and know where and how

you got it, so if you respond, then make sure it is truthful.

As I said, I am going to do the legal research and will report my

findings.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:20:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Post on Archives

May 26, 1997 MEMORIAL DAY

This post is in response to the long post by Bentz Kirby:

Dear Bentz,

It's Memorial Day, and I'd rather be finishing up my book on the

healing of Vietnam veterans, who are one of the greatest bunch of guys I've

ever known (they'd don't backbite and lie, they don't pretend to be your

friend when they're not, they have a great passion for justice, and they

call 'em like they see 'em). But instead the bullshit's still flying here,

and so I've got to keep shoveling it.

Mr. Anstee writes a very cool, calm, and collected post. He's not a

hot-headed dago like I am. But that doesn't mean there isn't a shitload of

malice behind what he writes.

Mr. Anstee was taking whacks at me behind my back, calling me

"worse" than Sampas, before I even got on the Beat-List. What is really

curious about this is that Mr. Anstee has written and acted, to my face, as

if he were my friend for the past 13 or so years (excuse me if I'm one or

two years off). In return, I helped him on a whole variety of projects,

provided him with dozens of pieces of Beat and Kerouac memorabilia, etc.

Where that malice came from, I don't know, other than perhaps Mr.

Anstee felt vulnerable in that he had revealed to me how much of Jack

Kerouac's archive he had bought for his own collection. And now that I move

legally closer to recovering rights in Kerouac materials for the Kerouac

Estate, perhaps I seem like a threat to him--i.e., perhaps he fears if I win

in Florida, he will have to surrender the Kerouac items he has paid good

money for, because that would mean they were not legally John Sampas's to

have sold.

In any case, let's answer some of your questions:

1) "Does anyone actually know what Sampas has done [with regard to

selling off Kerouac items and artifacts]? Yes, many people have testified

to this. I have a seven-page list of witnesses and testimony, which I will

provide to you off-line, if you wish, since it may be needed for evidence in

court. Certainly dealer Jeffrey Weinberg, who handled the archive for

Sampas from 1991-1993 and who is on the Beat-List, has not contested the

majority of my allegations [he only claimed the price of the raincoat was

less than $50,000].

We keep hearing the myth that Sampas sold the Kerouac Archive to the

New York Public Library. I plan to demolish that myth once for all later

today. But let me just post one curious fact here. Jeffrey Weinberg states

that he sold the manuscript of Kerouac's BOOK OF DREAMS (as agent for Mr.

Sampas) to a private collector. I have every reason to believe him.

As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Weinberg is one of the most honest

people on this list. I say this, not because we are friends. We have never

met. And in fact, we've crossed swords with each other more than a few

times over the past 20 years (angry letters exchanged, angry phone calls).

But Mr. Weinberg is an okay guy in my book. Every time we have

talked on the phone, he has talked straight with me. He has only revealed

the names of his customers who were willing to be revealed, but he has told

me of hundreds of items that were sold.

Somehow, when all this controversy arose, the BOOK OF DREAMS

manuscript ended up in the New York Public Library--so that John Sampas

could use it as evidence that he has all along been selling stuff there, and

will someday sell everything there.

But how did BOOK OF DREAMS get from the private collector Weinberg

sold it to (in his capacity as Sampas's agent) to the New York Public Library?

Did Sampas go and buy it back from the collector and then resell it

to the NYPL? Just a thought, one of the many mysteries that will not be

explained till Sampas openly reveals what he has done WITH EVERY SINGLE ITEM

OF JACK KEROUAC'S ARCHIVE.

2) Did I donate part of my collection to U Mass, Lowell? Well, that's a

moot point. My archive was appraised at the time at $15,000--an amount no

library was then able to offer for it. I might well have made that much

money selling my archive off piece by piece, but I chose not to do that, not

to destroy its scholarly value in that fashion.

When U Mass, Lowell, said they could only come up with $7,500, I

agreed to that price, saying I would make the other half a donation. I also

allowed the university to spread the payments out over three years, to make

it easier for them to acquire the archive. However, we never actually drew

up donation papers. And even if we had, since I was simply donating part of

the appraised value, it would be arbitrary to say which items were "donated"

and which were "sold." But no xerox that was owned by another library was

included in the body of material that was finally transferred to U Mass, Lowell.

3) "What is the factual basis for this statement [by Mr. Anstee, that most

other institutions I approached were not interested in the MEMORY BABE

archive]?" There is no factual basis. Every single library I talked

to--and there were many--wanted the archive, but several of them wanted it

for free, which I simply couldn't afford to do back in 1986. Now, several

libraries have offered to pay Lowell good money to give up the

archive--since Lowell acts as if they have no use for it. One library--I'm

not at liberty to say which--even told me they were "salivating" at the

prospect of getting it.

4) "Who is the woman [from Connecticut] and why did she call?" We should

call her the No Name Woman, since librarian Martha Mayo refuses to name her.

I was first apprised of the fact that the MEMORY BABE archive was closed by

a post card in June, 1995, from scholar/writer/teacher Jim Jones. On the

post card, Mr. Jones wrote: "I just tried to look at the papers you donated

to the University of Lowell and the librarian in the Mogan Center told me

your collection is closed to the public until the lawsuit [Jan Kerouac vs.

the Sampases] is resolved."

I called librarian Martha Mayo, and she told me "someone" had come

in to complain. After much prodding, she finally confessed that the person

was John Sampas. Only later, after I had made a big stink claiming John

Sampas did not have a legal right to close my collection, did Mayo change

her story--she has in fact changed it several times already--and claim there

was another caller, "the woman from Connecticut." She has thus far declined

to name her. Mr. Anstee speculates it is Helen Weaver--a writer and lover

of Kerouac's from Connecticut, but no, it is not Helen Weaver. And it is

not Ann Charters, who lives in Storrs, because I didn't interview Ann on tape.

Later still, Mayo claimed that several people had called. But when

I pushed her on this point, last fall in Lowell, she came back to the story

that there were only two people, one of whom was John Sampas, and the other

was the No Name Woman from Connecticut.

5) "What do you think about publishing all the tapes?" It's a great

idea, esp. on CD-ROM, but we'd have to get them out of Lowell first, since I

didn't keep copies. I was too poor at the time to copy 25,000 pieces of

paper and 300 tapes. I have, however, published a few of the interviews in

literary magazines, and nobody ever claimed I didn't have the legal right to

do so.

6) Ms. Mayo--she who cannot keep her stories straight--claims it was

her "understanding that permission was given." First of all, I didn't

negotiate with Martha Mayo, I negotiated with Collections Acquisition

Librarian Dick Ross for a full year (he was above Mayo in the U Mass

hierarchy). Ross and I had numerous conversations over the course of a

year, before the sale was made, and all my cards were out on the table about

the fact that there were no written permissions. Writers who turn over

their literary collections to a university ALMOST NEVER have the kind of

permissions Mayo is talking about. Ferlinghetti has put materials from

thousands of people into his City Lights Archive at Bancroft in Berkeley,

including 20 letters from a guy named Gerry Nicosia, and you can see all

that material tomorrow despite the fact that there is no written permission

to do so (nobody ever asked this Gerry Nicosia guy for his permission).

7) "Does the estate own copyright to that [Kerouac's letters]?" Yes,

the copyright of a letter reverts to the sender, while the physical property

is owned by the recipient. That means John Sampas legally owns the

people from reading those letters if they are in a public institution?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Does it give him the right to prevent scholars from

photocopying those letters for personal use? That is a moot point, an area

that is currently under debate. Some lawyers will say, yes, xerox is a form

of publication, and Sampas lawfully controls publication. Other lawyers

will say xerox of a single copy is not publication. Different libraries

have different policies, and the policies are changing all the time.

But at present there are a number of libraries I can walk into

tomorrow and xerox Kerouac letters, including Bancroft at Berkeley. This

despite the fact that Sampas has called some of these libraries, including

Bancroft, to complain about such things.

8) "If Sampas is wrong, then we all should tell him to get out of others

business." Amen, and out of the business of trying to control and limit

Kerouac scholarship.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:25:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: to Kirby

Kirby - I took out the "and other arsonists" out of the title...i'm less

peeved now!

You know, Kirby, in England they have a very fine legal concept of

distinguishimg the Solicitor, who establishes the case - tort, defense, etc.

- and he Barrister, who fights it in court withthe assistance at table of

the solicitor. It pisses me off to see you taking the role of Barrister with

regardto Rod's post and ladling on the vitriol and gasoline to really stoke

things up.

The points made were made in a calm and reasoned way. I know that

Rod and Gerry are seen to be at odds, but if everyone from the two of them

to you and to me would just cool it and act nice, we could still discuss

things, throw light into the corners and - if not agree - at least stop

trying to hate each other and piss each other off...

..and I apologize for pissing you off, but try to be more neutral in

all this. it's not necessary to take sides. Cimino has said it often enough

that the idea should be to protect and open access to the archives. I swear

that after listening to all this stuff, I am going - at minimum - to visit

New York to see what's there...and maybe I'll go bug Mayo in Lowell!

Having started with the legal eagle baloney (maloney?) I ask also

that all the talk of suits, counter-suits, fraud, malfeasance, theft, and

various other skullduggery be left off the list - unless of course it's

really juicy stuff, in which case Carry On!

One final point in support of one of Rod's points; it's critical to

move quickly on any audio tape recordings in Gerry's or anyone elses's

archive that ar more than 15 years old. There is likely to already be

evidence of degradation and after 25 years you risk being left with tape hiss!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:37:40 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: to Kirby

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> Kirby - I took out the "and other arsonists" out of the title...i'm

> less

> peeved now!

> You know, Kirby, in England they have a very fine legal

> concept of

> distinguishimg the Solicitor, who establishes the case - tort,

> defense, etc.

> - and he Barrister, who fights it in court withthe assistance at table

> of

> the solicitor. It pisses me off to see you taking the role of

> Barrister with

> regardto Rod's post and ladling on the vitriol and gasoline to really

> stoke

> things up.

> The points made were made in a calm and reasoned way. I know

> that

> Rod and Gerry are seen to be at odds, but if everyone from the two of

> them

> to you and to me would just cool it and act nice, we could still

> discuss

> things, throw light into the corners and - if not agree - at least

> stop

> trying to hate each other and piss each other off...

> ..and I apologize for pissing you off, but try to be more

> neutral in

> all this. it's not necessary to take sides. Cimino has said it often

> enough

> that the idea should be to protect and open access to the archives. I

> swear

> that after listening to all this stuff, I am going - at minimum - to

> visit

> New York to see what's there...and maybe I'll go bug Mayo in Lowell!

> Having started with the legal eagle baloney (maloney?) I ask

> also

> that all the talk of suits, counter-suits, fraud, malfeasance, theft,

> and

> various other skullduggery be left off the list - unless of course

> it's

> really juicy stuff, in which case Carry On!

> One final point in support of one of Rod's points; it's

> critical to

> move quickly on any audio tape recordings in Gerry's or anyone elses's

> archive that ar more than 15 years old. There is likely to already be

> evidence of degradation and after 25 years you risk being left with

> tape hiss!

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what

> to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

Antoine:

Understand that I do not yet represent Gerry. But, the way these posts

are coming is disturbing. He is a great biographer and his work,

including interviews is in danger of being lost. He does not need to

defend his work to accusations that are not backed by facts.

I am investigating assisting him on the Lowell matter and what can be

done to preserve the tapes. That is all so far.

My point here was not to be threatening, but to make sure that people

understand that you just can not make posts like this that imply he has

done something wrong and has ilegally sold materials that were

restricted, unless you are right.

Why was the post just, hey the tapes need to be saved, lets do it. The

rest could be done back channel. Rod had Gerry's number, he can call,

write or backchannel. We don't need people making statements like this

unless they are true and are substantiated. I do not want to lose Gerry

from this list because of such stuff!!

Thanks and I will take your advice and see where it leads. On the other

hand, I am not going to sit back and let others attack Gerry and leave

him out to twist. Rod, stick to the good stuff, or what you know.

Thanks

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:49:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Frank O'Hara, a poetry.

Rinaldo:

I just borrowed Frank O'Hara's Collected Poetry and plan on dipping into it

today.

Very likely I will find out why I am not a poet.

Julie

a painter who thinks she would rather be a poet, but she is not

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:51:45 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.

In-Reply-To: <l03020903afaf35490ac4@[206.25.67.120]>

i read a

lot (& his wife)

of authors writing about

the end of

caps

capitals

capitalism

captives

all they can

see seeing

critics

writing about

only

themselves

& the end of

their

nose.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:59:42 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Gerry's reply

>Now Rod, Is Helen Weaver a real person? Do you know her? Where does

>she live? Has she ever called the library at Lowell to tell them not to

>allow access to her tapes? If she is a real person, why would you use

>her name in a hypothetical? It appears that if Helen Weaver is a real

>person then you may in fact have knowledge of her intentions. Why not

>just say that Joan Doe may be writing a book?

GOOD QUESTION, BENTZ. HELEN WEAVER IS A FRIEND OF MINE, AND IT WAS NOT SHE

WHO CALLED U MASS, LOWELL TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HER TAPE BEING ACCESSIBLE. I

HAVE HER ADDRESS AND CAN PROVIDE IT TO YOU OFFLINE, IF YOU NEED IT. MR.

ANSTEE HERE WAS CLEARLY USING A SPECIFIC NAME OF A 'WOMAN IN CONNECTICUT' TO

GIVE MORE CREDIBILITY TO HIS ARGUMENT.

>II:

>2. That Gerry Nicosia sold it to the Library despite the restrictions

>on the face of the letter.

>Questioins:

>This implys, no states, that they have both violated the law. Is the

>letter of which you speak in the collection at Lowell? Does it have

>Gerry's notes on it? Was it sold to Lowell? If not, when will you post

>your apology to both Martha Mayo and Gerry? For your information, I am

>printing out a copy of your post and mailing it to Martha Mayo and will

>ask her to respond to me in writing that I can reproduce and post here

>to clarify this issue. I will send her both of my posts as well. I

>will not send her Gerry's. I will post the letter to the list when it

>is written. I don't have her address but assume that I can get it.

MARTHA MAYO IS SPECIAL COLLECTIONS LIBRARIAN AT U MASS, LOWELL, C/O THE

MOGAN CENTER, 40 FRENCH STREET, LOWELL MASSACHUSETTS 01854. SHE'S ALSO ON

THE INTERNET BUT I DON'T HAVE HER EMAIL ADDRESS. SHE'S NOT TOO MUCH OF A

FAN OF GERALD NICOSIA, ESPECIALLY AFTER I FILED A POLICE REPORT REVEALING

THAT SHE HAD ALLOWED 60 RARE LETTERS TO BE STOLEN FROM THE MEMORY BABE

COLLECTION, BUT I ALSO EXPECT SHE WILL NOT PRETEND THE LETTERS ROD ALLUDES

TO ARE IN HER POSSESSION, WHEN I HAVE PROOF THEY ARE NOT.

In the South we live by a code, and it may

>be antiquated, but you never, never take something obtained in

>friendship and use it against that friend. That is as low as you can

>get down here. Maybe where you come from, that is ok, but not in my

>book. And by the way, I have done my homework and know where and how

>you got it, so if you respond, then make sure it is truthful.

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

I live by the same code, and it has been one of the shocks of my

life during this whole Kerouac Vs. Sampas affair to find how many people I

have helped have stabbed me in the back, including Ann Charters. And how

much of it seems to be connected to making money off of/with help from John

Sampas.

In 1988, when the Kerouac Commemorative was dedicated in Lowell, the

Sampas family and their allies, who were running the ceremony and

festivities, chose to invite neither Jan Kerouac nor any of the Kerouac

biographers. Brad Parker, who had an independent group (Lowell Corporation

for the Humanities, much at odds with the "official" Lowell Kerouac

Committee) invited me and provided money for me to come to Lowell to speak

during that celebration. I told Brad Parker that he should also invite Ann

Charters, and he did. That's how Ann got to Lowell, and got to meet John

Sampas. Three years later, after Stella Sampas died and John took over, he

hired Ann to provide consultation regarding the Kerouac archives and to

begin a series of lucrative editing projects, which continues to this very day.

However, in 1994, Ann Charters, who was one of the chairs of NYU's

Beat conference, did her best to see that I was not invited; and when I

finally did come (at Jan Kerouac's insistence) I was not given the airfare

and free room at the University Suites that all the other participants got

(including Charters herself and even Gregory Corso's children, who were not

actually participants but just there to lend moral support). In 1995, when

NYU did a KEROUAC CONFERENCE, which listed Charters' name at the top of the

program, Ann claimed to me she knew nothing about the conference till a week

before the programs were sent out. When I asked to be invited, I was

completely stonewalled, and when I showed up anyway and paid my $120 to get

in (as Jan herself had to do), I was removed by police for defending Jan

Kerouac's right to speak there. When I asked Ann if she thought this was

right, she said, "I know nothing about it."

Thanks a lot, Ann.

Thanks a lot, Rod.

Thanks a lot, Paul Maher, for my going to the Lowell District

Attorney to tell him you WERE MOST LIKELY NOT THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE THIEF,

after Martha Mayo claimed (without evidence) that you were.

Et tu, Brutus?

Still not giving up on friendship, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:01:36 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Frank O'Hara, a poetry.

In-Reply-To: <970526144924_-1866894138@emout17.mail.aol.com>

> Julie

> a painter who thinks she would rather be a poet, but she is not

julie

can understand that completely. trying to convince myself of many things

that i am (may be) not (or maybe just not yet, who knows?) - painter,

artist, printmaker, student, worker, drone, individual, poet, eternal

teahead of time (like proust?)

challenge, isnt it?

yrs

derek

a pinocchio who thinks he would rather be a real boy, but he is not.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:46:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Gerry's reply

> Thanks a lot, Paul Maher, for my going to the Lowell District

>Attorney to tell him you WERE MOST LIKELY NOT THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE THIEF,

>after Martha Mayo claimed (without evidence) that you were.

> Et tu, Brutus?

"Brutus hath rived my heart:

>A friend should bear his friend's infirmities,

But Brutus makes mine greater than they are."

Gerry-

Am I to be indentured to your servitude because you salvaged my

reputation in the face of the law? I neither sought nor earned your aid. I

never solicited your aid, endorsed your cause, nor have I ever even met you

face to face nor will I ever want to in the future. You are a scourge upon

serious Kerouac scholarship, you are a blight to academia, and you and your

unsophisticated ways will some day reap what you sow. Your insignificant

presence does not warrant any fear in my heart nor will it ever. I paid my

price for my CRIME and it in more ways than one changed my life for the

better. I am

REAL AND IN TOUCH WITH MY REALITY. Creative freedom has always been the

cornerstone of my existence and the mother of all my inventions. You, Mr.

Nicosia, play no part in this. You do not have a monopoly on Kerouac

scholarship. You create the vendettas that are employed against you and then

you use this as a forum for "us against them." Mr. Sampas, (if you insist

there are "sides" to this foolish drama)demonstrates maturity and

professionalism in his role as literary executor. You, on the other hand, do

not even demonstrate a level-handed approach to scholarship. You use Memory

Babe as your pulpit when a good amount of the material is plagued with gross

inaccuracies and poor

documentation. yes, my pen can indeed be as poisonous as yours but that is

not what I am about. You play no part in my daily but as a flea on an

elephant's ass. You are a fly on a mountain of shit. it's too bad you and

your devout followers (if you have any) missed Hale-Bopp..............last

on this....EVER. PAUL MAHER JR. THE GUY WHO STOLE BOOKS FROM MOGAN CENTER

LIBRARY BUT IS NOW THE SCAPEGOAT FOR GERRY NICOSIA'S WORTHLESS STOLEN

ARCHIVES....

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:32:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Peter Milo <cva38@PROLOG.NET>

Organization: Micron Electronics, Inc.

Subject: who is your dad? and letter to kerouac

I'm a lurker turning active now. I have a quick question for phil who

is your dad is mentioned in any of Kerouac's books or any such thing?

It seems that a lot of people here have known each other for years

through families even. I never met any of the beats but I was going to

try to meet Ginsburg and as luck has it the year I'm moving back to New

York he dies.

One more question a few months ago around febuary there was this site it

was one a narrative I forgot the author's name but it was called "letter

to kerouac" I liked a lot and I printed it out I lost that copy and the

site is off of the net so does any one know the author's email address

so I can get a copy?

thanks a lot

Peater

(really spelled Peter but this spelling is more individual)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:42:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Paul Maher

Paul, I gotta tell ya buddy, you're showing your true colors with that last

post of yours. For a guy who three days ago said he'd had enough and even

sent a message saying "unsubscribe" you sure have a whole lot to say about

nothing.

Paul, some of us were hoping to keep the *debate* at a reasonable level

during the cease fire of the Memorial Day weekend. Obviously you don't want

to do your part as evidenced by the general nastiness of your tone.

"Scholar?" Paul, I hardly think so given the level to which you have sunk

here.

Say something useful, Paul, instead of general namecalling! I asked you a

week ago why you thought Gabrielle's signature was real as opposed to faked

since you're one of the few people on the list to have actually seen the

will. Why can't you answer questions put to you?

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:53:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Clarification

I have received several back channel posts here. First, I intend to

write Lowell and find out about the letters. Not as a lawyer, but as a

fan. Why? Because there was a post here by Rod today that said that

Gerry sold restricted documents to UMass Lowell and that UMass Lowell

bought them. I want to know the answer. And if Gerry did that, then I

want to know should he have done that? Was it legal?

If Rod has proof that it was done, then he should offer the proof. Not

state what his assumption is. This is not some comment on well, I think

Jimi Hendrix was high at such and such a festival. And then finding out

he was not. It was a direct statement that Gerry had done a thing that

was not right and in violation of a statemen printed on the document.

Now, since we can't look at the documents at Lowell, then we must do

what? I don't know what else to do but write the woman and ask her if

Rod is correct. Or Rod can answer on the list and give the information

that shows what he says is correct. If he is not correct, then I want

to see it clarified.

Another thing, I am not Gerry's attorney. I am not his agent. If the

time comes that I enter into a contract with him to do any legal work, I

will inform the list and will not post on his matters on this list. If

I were his attorney I would not be posting on this list. All of what I

am doing is as a fan of Kerouac. Now, if Rod is right, and there is no

explanation, I would not want to get involved. But if Rod is wrong,

then it should be clarified. I will post the letter tonight or tomorrow

when it is ready.

I have received other back channel mail with links to explain some

things to me, I will check it out.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:20:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus "Donated"

I'm off out in a few minutes to coach soccer, but I wanted, if possible, to

nip this thread in the bud, albeit somewhat belatedly. It seems I used the

word "purchased" in regard to the 2000 xeroxed letters in the MB Archive,

when "donated' would have been a more appropriate word. I apologize for this

-- in my defense, I would say only that I don't think this distinction has

ever been made previously in regards to the contents of the MB Archive, i.e.

between the "purchased" contents and the "donated" contents. In any event,

the statement I quoted from, that was stamped upon the 1952 JK to AG letter

I mentioned earlier today, surely also precludes the subsequent "donating"

of such material, so the point I was trying to make still stands -- the

presence of this class of material in the MB archive creates a problematical

situation for the administrating of the collection. Again, quite apart from

any Sampas pressure. I don't think that's an unfair statement, is it?

Just to makes things even more clear, as regards to my confusion. This is a

quotation from the covering letter (dated 12 February, 1987) you sent to me

with the list of what you earlier today referred to as your "research

archive."

You wrote:

"This CATALOGUE (emphasis mine) is privileged information, and I ask that you

not pass it around. Anyone interested should deal directly with me."

I guess I took "catalogue" to mean a list of items for sale.

Also, in the matter of your attempts to place the archive in other

institutions, in a later letter, dated 3 May, 1987 you further wrote:

"It looks like I might be selling the whole lot to Jeffrey Weinberg of

Sudbury Mass -- I would rather have sold it to an institution or library, but

NONE (emphasis yours, actually!) of them could come up with even five

thousand bucks (though U of Texas had just spent seventeen MILLION on some

weird collection -- ,...."

As for your help, down through the years, yes of course you have been an

invaluable help in my occasional scholarly forays -- I have certainly never

denied this, or even diminished its importance. I hereby thank you publicly,

if that is what is required -- I know, however, that I thanked you privately

every step of the way. You know that my quarrels with you in the past month

or so, focus specifically on the issue of the JK archive, and whether you

represent a Kerouacian's best friend in this regard, or whether your

continued involvment in this issue isn't actually counter-productive. That's

all. I believe the latter. I know many others disagree. That's fine.

Again, I apologize for using "purchased" instead of "donated" in my post

earlier today. My point -- I thought a very mild one, actually -- still

stands though Gerry.

CHEERS, Rod

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:27:15 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: to Kirby

R. Bentz Kirby wrote: . . .

> I am investigating assisting him on the Lowell matter and what can be

> done to preserve the tapes. That is all so far.

> My point here was not to be threatening, but to make sure that people

> understand that you just can not make posts like this that imply he has

> done something wrong and has ilegally sold materials that were

> restricted, unless you are right.

Mr. Kirby,

Like others I am somewhat confused by your role in this. Are you

1--trying to catch up on this matter and come to your own independant

judgement?

2--acting as a current or potential attorney for Mr. Nicosia?

3--trying to improve our collective debating habits from the vantage

point of your legal profession?

I am not in your business so can't provide an expert prospective, but

if you looking at a lawyer client relationship with Nicosia are you

using the list to

1 research your case?

2 argue that case, the way attorney's try to use the media outside

trials?

I'm stumped. It seems to me that if I thought I would be working on

this I would keep my mouth shut and my powder dry for court. It feels

like what you are doing is pouring gasoline on a situation that looked

over the weekend to be cooling. Mr Nicosia and Mr. Chaput were actually

talking about memories of Kerouac. Real improvement I thought. No

we're back to yelling and name calling.

Are we supposed to watch our posts because you might drag us into court?

I welcome anyone into any of these discussions, but I certainly didn't

anticipate that we needed someone to constantly insert their legal

function into the discussion. Nobody asked for a court appointed

arbitor. I don't think anyone wants to come to this list accompanied by

their lawyers. Let's get back to talking about the beats. If you are

here to talk about the beats, fine, join in. If you are here as a

lawyer for some party on the list, my own personal wish is that you

dissapear and let us get back to what we used to do

We sometimes used to have little spats on this list, but nothing like

this Estate nightmare. If another member disagrees with me I have no

intention of suing them. Enough already. My recollection is that

Gerery Nicosia brought this fight to this list. Some of us apparantly

love it, some of us are sick of it (count me in the latter group.) But

nobody else has brought his or her lawyer.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:22:01 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: SAMPAS WHO? Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <199705260519.WAA07591@sweden.it.earthlink.net>

At 22.19 25/05/97 -0700, Gerry wrote:

>..., it has nothing to do with

>>his archieves, its a damn pissing contest/whose got the bigger balls and

>>the rest of the nonsense. Its pure bullshit. Get off your ego trip and

>>realize THAT truth.

>>Lisa M. Rabey

>Dear Lisa, May 25, 1997

> I am here on the Beat-List only because of the need to preserve Jack

>Kerouac's archives. It has turned into a pissing contest because that is

>what Mr. Chaput and Mr. Anstee wanted it to become. They have effectively

>killed the discussion of what Sampas is doing with the archives and why, if

>he really intends to put them into a library, he has not signed even a

>statement of intention in 6 years. They don't want me talking about things

>like that, so they call me names and accuse me of various crimes, and then I

>answer them back, etc. etc.

> Well here's my deal, Lisa, I'll just quite answering their bullshit

>charges, and just keep posting the truth as I see it. Maybe some day

>someone from "the other side" will appear to argue this thing out

>rationally, and give us some hard facts about what Mr. Sampas is doing and

>plans to do--rather than just calling me names and saying what a bad person

>I am.

> By the way, Paul Maher's list from the NY Public Library shows that

>they do not own all the versions of even one Kerouac book (published or

>unpublished). A scholar who analyzes a work needs everything from the first

>notes thru first second and third drafts, and then the galleys. Kerouac

>typed several versions of every published book. The NY Public has acquired

>only early notebook drafts of some individual books, and they have not even

>one complete version of Kerouac's seven most important books: ON THE ROAD,

>THE DHARMA BUMS, DR. SAX, VISIONS OF GERARD, VISIONS OF CODY, VANITY OF

>DULUOZ, and DESOLATION ANGELS.

> This is what we should be talking about.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

i think that Gerry, il mio paesano Gerry, is right/

why i am writing about this matter? i have under my nose

the "Rolling Stone" issue 759 may 1,1997 pag.58 & by

pure coincidence there is an ad like this:

You haven't

heard Jack yet.

Kerouac

kicks joy darkness

with performances by

Morfine

Lydia Lunch

Michael Stipe

Steven Tyler

Hunter S. Thompson

Maggie Estep

& the Spitters

Richard Kewis

Lawrence Ferlinghetti

&Helium

Jack Kerouac

& Joe Strummer

Allen Ginsberg

Eddie Vedder,

Campbell 2000

& Sadie 7

William Burroughs

& tomandandy

Juliana Hatfield

John Cale

Johnny Depp & Come

Robert Hunter

Lee Ranaldo

& Dana Colley

Anna Domino

Rob Buck & Danny Chauvin

as Hitchhiker

Patti Smith

with Thurston Moore

& Lenny Kaye

Warren Zevon

& Michael Wolff

Jim Carroll with

Lee Ranaldo, Lenny Kaye

& Anton Sanco

Matt Dillon

with Joey Altruda

Inger Lorre & Jeff Buckley

Eric Andersen

In stores April 8th

Produced by Jim Sampas

Associate Producer: Lee Ranaldo

my question is Sampas mentioned above is

that Sampas who Nicosia is referring in his

posts? by way of this Sampas i immediatley got

a negative feedback (like a pavlov dog) to such

a work despite the excellent pedigree of performers

how much money is rolling out ?

the works of Jack Kerouac who

is universal maybe free to the people not (c)

or other e.g. can the pope damage the "Cappella

Sistina" ? he is the owner can the concil town of

Rome destroy the "Fontana di Trevi" ? he is the

owner BUT everyone know that this works of the

human mankind are really NOT owner of a single

person i hope,

i miei piu' cari saluti a tutti,

yrs Rinaldo Rasa.

* hi! guardate che scrivo dall'Italia, da un altro mondo! *

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:37:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus "Donated"

You know, Rod, I for one am extremely uncomfortable that you're using private

letters between you and Nicosia to try to bolster some argument that doesn't

have a thing to do with THE KEROUAC ARCHIVES which is the main issue here.

Bentz is right. A person of honor would not do such a thing!

You know, Rod, Gerry Nicosia is the ONLY PERSON IN THE WORLD trying to do

anything about Kerouac's Archive. As a person who says he cares about such

things I really don't see why you feel it is necessary to blast him publicly

every chance you get, often in some very shady ways.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:46:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Post on Archives

May 26, 1997

Paul Maher writes:

"I was under the impression that it [the woman from Connecticut] was

Bernice Lemire."

Nice try, Paul. No, Bernice lives in Boston. The reason her thesis

is not available is that someone stole it out of the Boston College archive.

Luckily I obtained a (legal) copy of it and put the copy in my archive.

Now, if only my archive were open, you could go over there and use it.

-- Gerry "blight to academia" Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:50:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Letter to Mayo

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------A826D122C50600B0BA35406D

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is the letter to Mayo. I intend to mail it tomorrow.

I am doing this as a fan.

Peace,

If you have a better idea, let me know.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

--------------A826D122C50600B0BA35406D

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="mayoltr.txt"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Content-Disposition: inline; filename="mayoltr.txt"

May 26, 1997

Martha Mayo

Special Collections Librarian

University of Massachusetts, Lowell

The Mogan Center

40 French Street

Lowell, MA 01854

RE: Kerouac Letters from Columbia University Archives

Subject: Gerry Nicosia Archives

Dear Ms Mayo:

I am a long time fan of Jack Kerouac. Some weeks ago, an Internet friend of

mine suggested that I join the beat mail list. I finally did and was quite

surprised at what I found. One of the main themes seems to be a Sampas vs

Nicosia situation. There are included as three posts from the Internet/www

mail list, one from Rod Anstee and two of my replies. These posts will likely

mean little to you, as these things are out of context and more important to

the ones involved.

However there is one thing that you can clarify. Mr. Anstee says to Mr. Nicosia

that "In a way I am quite surprised, in retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to

purchase these in the first place, knowing that many of them (originals) are

the property of other libraries." He goes on to then state that Gerry Nicosia

sold to your library a photocopy of a letter from Jack Kerouac to Allen

Ginsberg dated April 8, 1952 even though it has the instructions on it that the

copy is to be returned to Columbia University.

It is my understanding that we are not allowed to view the collection or hear

the recordings deposited there. Therefore, I am writing to you to inquire

whether the items purchased by your library do in fact include this letter and

other such items, that belong to other Universities and are marked in such a

fashion. If so, can you tell me what letters are so marked and whether or not

the sale and purchase is in fact legal, illegal, questionable or what.

I am going to post a copy of this letter to the mail list. If you do write in

reply, please do so with the understanding that any reply will be posted as

well. And, if you will not reply, please tell me how I can confirm whether or

not this is in fact true.

Thank you and with kind personal regards, I am

Sincerely,

Bentz Kirby

cc: Beat-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu

--------------A826D122C50600B0BA35406D--

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:15:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: "Purchased" versus "Donated"

.... In any event, the statement I quoted from, that was stamped upon the

1952 JK to AG letter

> I mentioned earlier today, surely also precludes the subsequent "donating"

>of such material, so the point I was trying to make still stands -- the

>presence of this class of material in the MB archive creates a problematical

>situation for the administrating of the collection....

>Also, in the matter of your attempts to place the archive in other

>institutions, in a later letter, dated 3 May, 1987 you further wrote:

>"It looks like I might be selling the whole lot to Jeffrey Weinberg of

>Sudbury Mass -- I would rather have sold it to an institution or library, but

>NONE (emphasis yours, actually!) of them could come up with even five

>thousand bucks (though U of Texas had just spent seventeen MILLION on some

>weird collection -- ,...."

>CHEERS, Rod

Dear Rod,

Have you no shame? I just get done posting the fact that none of

the Kerouac to Ginsberg letters, legally xeroxed from Columbia, have found

their way into the MEMORY BABE archive at Lowell, and you turn around and

tell me again that it was illegal for me to sell or donate them to U Mass,

Lowell.

I didn't SELL OR DONATE THEM TO LOWELL. I DIDN'T PUT THEM IN LOWELL

AT ALL. DO YOU FINALLY GET IT??? Or are you going to make five more posts

telling me I shouldn't have put them in Lowell?

OK, now you start quoting my private letters to you. I figured that

would come sooner or later. I'm not going to match you by quoting yours.

Let me just say, it was still a lie for you to say no one wanted my

archive. In fact, every library I talked to wanted them; but in those days

nobody had much money to purchase them.

In fact, I did not like the idea of selling the archive to Weinberg,

since he would give me no guarantee about keeping the archive together, SO I

WORKED HARD TO MAKE A LIBRARY DEAL HAPPEN. I wrote and called Paul Marion

several times, to see if we could get U Mass Lowell to come up with a

modicum of money; and I gave Lowell unusually generous terms, letting them

spread the payments over three years, with no interest charged, in order to

make the deal possible.

For shame, Rod! Quit these attacks on me! You know why you're

doing it, and everybody else knows too. You want to set me on fire so

people stop asking what Sampas is doing with the Kerouac archive.

CUT THE BULLSHIT!

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:20:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: second try,

The text file did not work, so I will try html. Sorry to duplicate this

post. Personally, I am tried of the whole thing and intend to drop my

end of thread. I wait to see what Lowell says.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:35:08 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Litigation Theology

The problem with lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come so

highly and peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's

gasoline).

That's just MO(loch).

Thanks, but asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is like

asking the Devil in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy to

speak, given either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others twisted

around their own feet.

That's just my theory of Litigation Theology.

Rertospectively yrs.,

John M.

Be cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't drool.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:36:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Litigation Theology

John Mitchell wrote:

> The problem with lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come

> so

> highly and peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's

> gasoline).

> That's just MO(loch).

> Thanks, but asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is

> like

> asking the Devil in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy

> to

> speak, given either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others

> twisted

> around their own feet.

> That's just my theory of Litigation Theology.

> Rertospectively yrs.,

> John M.

> Be cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't drool.

ROTFLMAO, even it is aimed at me. Good post John. By the way, were

you kin to John R. ;-)

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:38:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Lawyers

I heard a Spanish proverb which I told my children yesterday:

It is better to be a mouse in the mouth of a cat, than a man in a

lawyer's hands.

So true, but yet, what about in the hands of a used car salesman, or a

vinyl siding salesman, or well, whatever.

First thing let's do, is kill all the lawyers. Paraphrase of William

Shakespear.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:44:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: A Note to the Peacekeepers

Folks, I'm embarrassed for you. How can you keep silent allowing Anstee as

well as Paul Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?

It's one thing to want to see peace on the list. That's fine if that's what

you really want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink

at Nicosia and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to

Anstee telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to

this!

Every person on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by

allowing Anstee to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I

think Gerry has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in

light of Paul Maher's vitriolic posts.

Right is right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or

"his cause".

Inaction is as much of a statement as action is.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:53:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac

May 26, 1997

To all the good and friendly folks on the Beat-List:

(the rest can kiss me ass)

Has anyone noticed how, within a few weeks, the debate has been

switched from why we SHOULD be able to study Jack Kerouac (making his

archive of papers available at a library, etc.) to WHY WE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE

TO STUDY JACK KEROUAC? No one has been popping at Sampas for selling off

hundreds of pieces of Jack Kerouac's unique literary archive. Instead, they

have been popping at me for putting my own scholarly archive, the MEMORY

BABE archive, on deposit at U Mass, Lowell, to help people study Jack

Kerouac's life and works.

I.e., I'm the bad guy because I tried to make my huge body of

scholarly research materials available to other writers and students. The

very thing I am asking Sampas to do is now an evil thing.

Have I walked thru the Looking Glass? Is Rod Anstee the Mad Hatter?

Hey, what's going on here, folks?

Is it an accident that we're now debating if Nicosia broke the law

by putting his archive in a library, instead of asking if Sampas has a moral

right to destroy the integrity of Jack Kerouac's archive? I don't think

it's an accident--not by a long shot. It's serving someone's purpose.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out whose.

I used to think pro basketball was a hot sport till I got into the

business of trying to save the Kerouac Archive. In the space of four weeks

here I've been accused of breaking the law by both Phil Chaput and Rod

Anstee--neither of whom has produced a shred of evidence to substantiate

their charges. Mr. Anstee has even had to INVENT EVIDENCE, claiming I sold

letters xeroxed from Columbia University (which could not legally be resold)

to Lowell, when I NEITHER SOLD NOR DONATED THOSE LETTERS TO LOWELL. I NEVER

PUT THEM IN LOWELL AT ALL. PERIOD.

I have also been called every name in the book--the last set of

volleys comes from Paul Maher, Jr., another Sampas apologist, whose claim

to fame is to have stolen fifty rare books on the raising of silk worms from

the Mogan Center, the same building leased by U Mass, Lowell, from which key

parts of the MEMORY BABE archive were also stolen.

Mr. Chaput tells me to "fuck myself" (a pleasant experience

according to Lenny Bruce), and Mr. Maher calls me "a scourge upon serious

Kerouac scholarship" and "a blight to academia" and "a fly on a mountain of

shit." Coming from those two, I guess I should figure I've been complimented.

All these folks stand to gain something from Mr. Sampas.

Maher needs material for his new Kerouac Quarterly, and from all

appearances, Sampas has been giving it to him.

Anstee already purchased major items from the Kerouac Archive for

his private collection, which have gone up tremendously in value, and he

would doubtless like to purchase some more. He would also like to keep me

from proving Gabrielle Kerouac's will a forgery, because that would force

him to surrender the Kerouac items he purchased at fairly steep

prices--since if the will was no good, then John Sampas would have sold

those things without a clear title to them.

Chaput is connected with Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!--a committee

partly financed by John Sampas, and which, from what I hear, takes its

directions almost exclusively from Sampas. Does Phil get paid for his work

for LCK!, or does he just get the percs of meeting famous people and getting

to act important? I don't know, but you can bet he's getting something out

of posting information here that is spoon-fed to him by Sampas.

Chaput got almost everything he put up here from Sampas, including

the figures from Jan Kerouac's income tax returns, which could only have

come from Sterling Lord, Mr. Sampas's and Ms. Kerouac's joint agent (unless

Sampas has a mole inside the IRS). But CHAPUT WAS TOO COWARDLY TO ANSWER MY

QUESTION ABOUT THE SOURCE OF THOSE INCOME TAX RETURNS, BECAUSE IT EITHER

MEANT THAT MR. SAMPAS HAD GOTTEN THEM ILLEGALLY OR ELSE STERLING LORD

(SAMPAS'S AGENT) HAD BREACHED HIS FIDUCIARY DUTY TO JAN KEROUAC BY RELEASING

THEM. C'mon, Phil, c'mon out of hiding. Who gave you Jan's income tax

forms? Mr. Sampas or Mr. Lord? Which one of them is in trouble?

What? Your tongue tied for a change?

Good folks, I'm really tired of all this bullshit. I plan one more

post, later today, to expose the absolutely FALSE CLAIM that the Jack

Kerouac Archive is in the New York Public Library already.

Then I'm taking off for a while.

There are some good people here who can stick up for the

truth--Jerry Cimino, Joe Grant, and Bentz Kirby among others. I need a

break to get back to my real work--writing books, and advocating for the

right to study Jack Kerouac's papers, in court, which is the only place such

advocacy will really count.

By the way, I've been accused of hiring these folks as "mouthpieces"

for me. I've never met either Grant or Kirby. Jerry I met only twice, once

when he asked me to come down to his bookstore in Monterey to lecture about

Kerouac, and the other time for a few seconds in Washington Square Park in

New York, when I gave him a free ticket to the Beat Conference Town Hall

Concert.

If they're supporting me, they're doing it from conscience, since I

sure don't have any money left (after 10 months of double litigation) to pay

them.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:10:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

At 06:44 PM 5/26/97 -0400, Jerry wrote:

>Inaction is as much of a statement as action is.

Hmm, I've been holding off from getting off this list

for a couple daze now, due to the lack of interesting

discussion (not saying the Estate/Archive thread isn't

interesting, just seems to be more hot air than anything

relevant). Now, we are being accused of not speaking

up/sticking up enuff for members on this list. I find this

quite interesting, considering I don't see any innocent

parties in this debate - why should I get "scolded" by

another list member for keeping my peace? Chances 'r',

if we did open up, we'd get attacked, yelled at, faces

rubbed in shit, etc. If I choose to not partake in this

insanity, please respect that decision.

>Every person on this list is being party to keeping

>this thread alive by allowing Anstee to get away unscathed

>with these ridiculous assertions.

Insects may sing -

But the Emmet in silence

Shows us his arse!

~Issa~

Hey Jerry, no hard feelings just my honest opinion.

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:19:07 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...

Jerry wrote:

>Folks, I'm embarrassed for you. How can you keep silent allowing Anstee as

>well as Paul Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?

>It's one thing to want to see peace on the list. That's fine if that's what

>you really want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink

>at Nicosia and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to

>Anstee telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to

>this!

>Every person on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by

>allowing Anstee to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I

>think Gerry has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in

>light of Paul Maher's vitriolic posts.

>Right is right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or

>"his cause".

>Inaction is as much of a statement as action is.

Hello, Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's a reason I never post anything

to Rod Anstee. I still remember the crap he threw at Ron Whitehead (not to

mention others). He's a man with his own agenda, and he does what strikes his

fancy... whether anybody "puts up with it" or not. Silence is not being party

to him. So, since my inaction is a statement, let the statement be I won't be a

party to any of it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my actions

or reactions. As I posted in an open letter to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's

made his point, and made it well. The other guys are just making asses out of

themselves... my impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.

Why should I waste my time posting to them? It won't change anything they do.

Only reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.

All the best, ---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:47:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alfred Lewen <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

At 06:44 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Folks, I'm embarrassed for you. How can you keep silent allowing Anstee as

>well as Paul Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?

>It's one thing to want to see peace on the list. That's fine if that's what

>you really want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink

>at Nicosia and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to

>Anstee telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to

>this!

>Every person on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by

>allowing Anstee to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I

>think Gerry has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in

>light of Paul Maher's vitriolic posts.

>Right is right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or

>"his cause".

>Inaction is as much of a statement as action is.

>Jerry Cimino

Cimino, It is one post I made that was "vitriolic" in tone and that is

because I am sick of Nicosia bringing my name into things. I refuse to let

this happen. I, unlike you or anybody else seek no support for my cause. I

have no interest whatsoever in winning over anybody but when Nicosia drags

my name over and over I will be more than "vitriolic." It is none the less

deserving. You doubt my veracity? You don't even know John Sampas or the

strategy of his archival practices. Why do you have to take sides if that is

what we are supposed to do?

Why don't you try thanking me for placing an ad in my quarterly without pay?

Your posts won't win you any support, only a lost customer base.....

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:32:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

Mike, no hard feelings at all. And I appreciate your honest opinion. And

normally I'd say not speaking up and not taking a position is fine. But when

people say things like what Maher said and when people assert things like

Anstee has done it is up to the rest of us to say "you've crossed the line".

I'm not asking you to stand up and say Nicosia is right, just that many of

his detractors are off base in what they're saying and the way they're saying

it.

Mike, If I were to say to you the things that have been said to Nicosia by

his "detractors" I would expect the good people on this list to call me to

task for it.

Right is right. Nicosia may have alienated a lot of people with the tone of

many of his responses, but he does not deserve to be slammed the way he has

been. He's presented us with facts. All he's been met with is rancor and

unproved assertions.

Mike, I respectfully submit to you not taking a position when someone is

obviously being slandered is taking a position.

Jerry C

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:00:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alfred Lewen <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Why We Shouldn't Study Kerouac

> I have also been called every name in the book--the last set of

>volleys comes from Paul Maher, Jr., another Sampas apologist, whose claim

>to fame is to have stolen fifty rare books on the raising of silk worms from

>the Mogan Center, the same building leased by U Mass, Lowell, from which key

>parts of the MEMORY BABE archive were also stolen.

I never sought fame Mr. Nicosia for my actions. That is in your warped mind.

I am remorseful and embarrassed about the thefts I committed seven years

ago. Your pathetic attempt to embarrass me into a response is successful.

But again, you reap what you sow. Your such a stupid creature. You wonder

why no one likes you over here. Your under the pretense that if you come

from Lowell you are somehow connected. John Sampas did not contribute

anything to my newsletter. The piece in question was contributed by the late

Jay Pendergast (by the way a true defintion of a scholar unlike my subject

matter here). I, unlike you, had to go through the proper channels (i.e.

John Sampas) to acquire permission to publish.

> Maher needs material for his new Kerouac Quarterly, and from all

>appearances, Sampas has been giving it to him.

******I need nothing for my newsletter. I have enough material for the next

four issues all from several submissions worldwide. Again, you are wrong.

> Good folks, I'm really tired of all this bullshit. I plan one more

>post, later today, to expose the absolutely FALSE CLAIM that the Jack

>Kerouac Archive is in the New York Public Library already.

******Good luck proving that because my info was xeroxed from NYPL stationery.

> Then I'm taking off for a while.

> There are some good people here who can stick up for the

>truth--Jerry Cimino, Joe Grant, and Bentz Kirby among others.

********Ah yes, your loyal following, how long will it take before you burn

those bridges?

I think I will have John Sampas autograph my copy of Memory Babe.....

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:57:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...

Wes Lunburg wrote:

>Why should I waste my time posting to them. It won't change anything they

do.

>Only reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.

Hi Wes,

Thanks for your candid response.

Wes, it's precisely *because* so many people are weighing the various

psoitions and gauging who is "right" and who is "wrong" that those of us who

know Rod would argue with a pineapple if it sat still long enough need to

make clear what is really going on.

Many people, especially if they're new to the list, read Rod's posts and

think "here is a serious person making a serious charge" and they see a

handful of people slugging it out and figure "each side is as bad as the

other only worse". And when everyone keeps silent because no one wants to

"take a position" these insidious wars go on and on because people like Gerry

think no one is hearing them or believing them because no one is responding

at all.

I think if everybody on this list posted a note to Rod saying "Enough with

the ridiculous charges! Show evidence or keep quiet" maybe he'd think twice.

But what do we get instead? "Let's not talk about it." "This makes me

uncomfortable." "Take your little wars off-list, boys". And what is the

result of that? Anstee has effectively silenced Nicosia which is exactly

what he wants. And everyone of us on the list has helped him do it by not

challenging him.

That's why we should call him on the cheap shots and the non-issues. Because

silence is a co-conspirator to the truth!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:02:30 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Not ashamed

Jerry

I am getting tired of the theme that if we don't all rush to poor Mr.

Nicosia's defense we are sort of like silent good Germans. You and

Nicosia seem to be in a minority that feel that this whole thing is a

one way street. Go back and look through the thread, I will turn on my

machine and there are another seven or eight posts from GN. After days

of silence, not doubt getting tired of listening to Nicosia's paranoid

view of the world, eventually an Anastee, Chaput or Maher will respond,

(sometimes not very temperatly, but there have been some very

informative posts as well). Then GN will start again with his assertion

that everyone in the Kerouac world but himself is a weak, excuse-making

pawn of John Sampas, hiding their own self interest. As far as I can

remember this list includes Allan Ginsberg, Ann Charters, most of the

people in Lowell and pretty much everyone else but Mr. Nicosia and

before her death Jan Kerouac. Mr. Nicosia, of course, has no self

interest. Then you and Mr. Kirby wonder why not everyone is rushing to

poor Mr. Nicosia's defense. Seems to me he does fine on his own.

There seem to me to be a few clear points

1. All the principles in this war have a serious interest in and love

for Jacks work

2. They see things differently

3 This thing will be settled in the courts and not here.

I am not ashamed of myself. I think the list members have on the whole

been very polite and deferential to Gerry. We have begged for him to

contribute to real discussions of Kerouac, we have praised him for his

effort on Memory Babe. But that doesn't mean we all are ready to join

his crusade or that we share his view of his opponents. I will go back

to the good habit I lost of just deleting anything on this thread. I

know that whatever happens you and Attorney-at Law Kirby, Esq will be on

hand to genuflect and hold Gerry's coat. I don't think my mortal soul

is in danger on this count, and if somewhere in Lowell there is a bar

with a dartboard with GN's face on it, I would find it pretty easy to

understand. But if the kitchen sink comes into play I trust someone

will backchannel me so I won't miss it.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:20:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alfred Lewen <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Paul Maher

At 04:42 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Paul, I gotta tell ya buddy, you're showing your true colors with that last

>post of yours. For a guy who three days ago said he'd had enough and even

>sent a message saying "unsubscribe" you sure have a whole lot to say about

>nothing.

>Paul, some of us were hoping to keep the *debate* at a reasonable level

>during the cease fire of the Memorial Day weekend. Obviously you don't want

>to do your part as evidenced by the general nastiness of your tone.

> "Scholar?" Paul, I hardly think so given the level to which you have sunk

>here.

****Whatever, your assessment of my scholarship matters nothing to me. I

hardly think that you are going to be on my Master's thesis committee.

>Say something useful, Paul, instead of general namecalling! I asked you a

>week ago why you thought Gabrielle's signature was real as opposed to faked

>since you're one of the few people on the list to have actually seen the

>will. Why can't you answer questions put to you?

Because I am not required to.

I have seen the will yes. I have also seen many documents (contracts for

foreign publication rights etc. signed by Gabrielle Kerouac in the early

1970's)signed after the will which are almost 100% the same. The only slight

change is the way

the "c" at the end of Kerouac trails off. This is given to her invalid

state. On this alone I came to my conclusion. There were other documents

that sealed my decision that the will/forgery claim is a fraud. For

instance, what made the signature look funny to Ms. Jan Kerouac anyways?

What is so funny about the way an old woman who suffered a stroke signs her

name? Were they humoring her disability? I mean...my grandmother writes me

letters and the sig looks a little shaky but I have no reason to believe

it's "funny." You are all sorely misled and someday the shadiness of the

situation will brighten and the real "true colors" will be revealed. And by

the way I came back on the list to post about my friend Jay Pendergast's

death who knew Jack in the 1960's.. Don't flatter yourself thinking I wanted

to respond to you. Signed vitriolicly, Paul...

>Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:07:34 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: New York Public Library (final post, this time I mean it)

To all the good and friendly folks on the Beat-List:

My final post; I'm turning in my bullshit shovel.

But I want to clear up this lingering myth--or more accurately,

cruel hoax--about the Kerouac Archive being in the New York Public Library.

I work from the List printed by Paul Maher, which purports to be the

latest list of the New York Public Library's Kerouac holdings (I have a list

given me by NYPL librarian Rodney Phillips two years ago, which has only a

few less things on it). Not much has changed in two years.

Let's start by getting one thing straight: A COLLECTION IS NOT AN

ARCHIVE, and vice versa.

The New York Public Library has a Kerouac/Beat collection, which

they have been building for years, by buying items from many different

people, including many dealers.

Univ. of Texas, Austin, the Bancroft Library (Berkeley), and

Stanford, among others, also have Kerouac/Beat collections.

Even Rod Anstee has a Kerouac/Beat collection. From what I have

seen, having visited his house, Mr. Anstee's collection is bigger in sheer

bulk than the Kerouac collection at the New York Public Library. Jan

Kerouac and I had a private session at the NYPL, had the whole Kerouac

collection thrust out on a desk before us, and it didn't take up much space.

What are Jack Kerouac's ten most important published books?

I'm a Kerouac biographer, so let me take a stab at this. I

nominate, in no particular order:

1) ON THE ROAD

2) THE DHARMA BUMS

3) DR. SAX

4) THE SUBTERRANEANS

5) VISIONS OF GERARD

6) VISIONS OF CODY

7) VANITY OF DULUOZ

8) BIG SUR

9) DESOLATION ANGELS

10) MEXICO CITY BLUES

What does the New York Public Library have of each of these?

1) ON THE ROAD was typed on a long scroll of Japanese art paper. It

was retyped several times, with major revisions. It was worked over in

galleys. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS

NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

2) THE DHARMA BUMS was typed on a scroll of teletype paper, retyped

several times, reworked, and worked over extensively in galleys. THE NEW

YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF

THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

3) DR. SAX was written in pencil notebooks; it was typed up; it was

worked over editorially by Malcolm Cowley; there are presumably also galleys

for it. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS

NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY. They do list the

presence of some "notes for Dr. Sax" in their collection.

4) THE SUBTERRANEANS WAS TYPED ON A ROLL OF TELETYPE PAPER, RETYPED

ON REGULAR PAGES (which Jeffrey Weinberg saw, and says they are

"crumbling"), and revised extensively in galleys to prevent libel suits from

Alene Lee (Mardou Fox). THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS

MATERIAL, AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

5) VISIONS OF GERARD WAS WRITTEN IN PENCIL NOTEBOOKS AND RETYPED ON

TO REGULAR PAGES. I assume there were galleys but don't know about the

amount of revision. Suspect less revision because Kerouac considered this a

"holy book." THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND

HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

6) VISIONS OF CODY was written in pencil notebooks and also sections

of it were typed. Some of it was drafted in letters Kerouac wrote to his

friends (like the letter to John Clellon Holmes which Mr. Anstee purchased

for his own collection). It was retyped several times, as the work

underwent the editorial scrutiny of a number of people: Carl Solomon, Allen

Ginsberg, Malcolm Cowley, et al. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF

THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

7) VANITY OF DULUOZ was typed on a scroll of teletype paper and then

retyped on to regular pages. Kerouac incorporated many of his earlier

unpublished writings and breastpocket notebook passages into the text. I do

not know the extent of editorial changes. One would assume there were, at

the very least, marked galley proofs. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE

OF THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

8) BIG SUR was typed on a scroll of teletype paper and then retyped

on to regular pages. Kerouac used many breastpocket notebooks for material,

which he incorporated into the text. I assume there were at least marked

galleys. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY OWNS NONE OF THIS MATERIAL, AND HAS

NEVER MADE ANY OF THIS MATERIAL AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

9) DESOLATION ANGELS was both written in notebooks and typed over a

period of several years. It was then retyped on to regular paper. Extent

of editorial changes unknown. One assumes marked galleys. THE NEW YORK

PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS THE NOTEBOOKS TO SECTION 2, "PASSING THROUGH," WHICH IS

ONLY ABOUT ONE-THIRD OF THE ENTIRE TEXT. IT HAS NO ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT FOR

THE REMAINING TWO-THIRDS OF THE TEXT, AND NO RETYPED PAGES FOR ANY OF THE

TEXT. NO GALLEYS. THE PENCIL NOTEBOOKS FOR SECTION 2 ARE AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

10) MEXICO CITY BLUES was written in pencil notebooks and later

retyped. There was doubtless more than one typescript, as this manuscript

circulated among many different writers in both California and New York.

There were certainly marked galleys, as this was a tough book to type-set

with lots of neologisms and weird typography. THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY

OWNS THE PENCIL NOTEBOOKS AND ONE TYPESCRIPT. THEY DO NOT HAVE ALL THE

TYPESCRIPTS, AND THEY DO NOT HAVE THE GALLEYS. THE NOTEBOOKS AND

TYPESCRIPTS THEY HAVE ARE AVAILABLE FOR STUDY.

So, the New York Public Library lacks any paper trail for 8 of

Kerouac's 10 most important published books; it has a very incomplete paper

trail for the 9th book; and a somewhat better (but by no means complete)

paper trail for the 10th. And if the MEXICO CITY BLUES manuscript is the

completest, it is rather curious to thank Mr. Sampas for it, since he was

preparing to sell it to a private collector (according to Jeffrey Weinberg)

and--though Weinberg is not completely sure--probably did sell it to a

private collector, before it was resold to the NYPL.

WHAT ABOUT MAGGIE CASSIDY? A FINE NOVEL, IF NOT AMONG THE GREATS.

THE NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS ONLY 45 pages in pencil, an UNUSED SECTION

OF MANUSCRIPT. IT HAS NO PARTS OF THE ACTUAL MANUSCRIPT, NOR THE RETYPED

VERSION, NOR THE GALLEYS.

The NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY also has NO TRACE AT ALL OF MANY OF

KEROUAC'S VERY IMPORTANT UNPUBLISHED BOOKS: THE SEA IS MY BROTHER, AND THE

HIPPOS WERE BOILED IN THEIR TANKS!, MEMORY BABE, SECRET MULLINGS OF BILL,

VISIONS OF LUCIEN, AND AN UNTITLED NOVEL ABOUT NICKY'S BAR IN LOWELL, etc.

IT HAS NO TRACE OFMANUSCRIPT FOR MANY OF KEROUAC'S IMPORTANT

ARTICLES: THE ORIGINS OF THE BEAT GENERATION; CITYCitycity; THE ESCAPADE

MAGAZINE PIECES, ETC.

It has a lot of Kerouac's correspondence with the Sampas family and

a few other letters (MANY OF WHICH ARE XEROXED COPIES, ACCORDING TO THE LIST

LIBRARIAN RODNEY PHILLIPS GAVE ME), but almost none of Kerouac's

correspondence (carbon copies and drafts of his own letters, and letters

sent him) from the HUNDREDS OF IMPORTANT WRITERS AND ARTISTS WITH WHOM

KEROUAC CORRESPONDED.

IT DOES NOT HAVE THE HUNDREDS OF FIVE-CENT BREAST-POCKET NOTEBOOKS

HE CARRIED IN HIS SHIRT EVERY DAY, TO "SKETCH" THE THINGS HE SAW AND HEARD

ON A DAILY BASIS, MOST OF WHICH NEVER FOUND THEIR WAY INTO ANY BOOK.

IT HAS NONE OF HIS BOYHOOD SELF-PRINTED COMIC BOOKS AND NEWSPAPERS

AND OTHER JUVENILE WRITINGS.

IT DOES NOT HAVE HIS SELF-CREATED HORSE RACE AND BASEBALL GAMES.

IT HAS NONE OF HIS PHOTOGRAPHS.

IT HAS NONE OF HIS MANY PAINTINGS AND DRAWINGS

IT HAS NONE OF HIS PRIVATE SCRAPBOOKS OF NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS,

CONCERNING HIS SPORTS HEROICS AND BOOK REVIEWS.

IT HAS NONE OF HIS PERSONAL PAPERS, REPORT CARDS, JOB APPLICATIONS,

PASSPORTS, LAWSUIT PAPERS FOR CHILD SUPPORT, etc. etc.

IT HAS NONE OF THE HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF TAPE RECORDINGS KEROUAC MADE.

IT HAS NONE OF HIS PERSONAL BOOKS, HIS PRIVATE LIBRARY.

You're going to tell me that the Jack Kerouac Archive is in the New

York Public Library??? Come again.

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:14:48 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: uneducated & illinformed quasi-estate-post

after watching several hundred estate postings go rolling by under the

delete-key, I finally submit one myself. It's a slippery slope, they

say... :

first of all, I like this thread, slanging matches & all. If nothing else,

it's probably better that these things are thrashed out in public if

they're going to be thrashed out at all. Moving it offlist wouldn't really

be true. I'm not a car crash voyeur, but I like hearing what people have

to say... relevant, polite, politic, political, friendly, supportive,

abusive, warmongering, inane, whatever. I've learned a lot from all those

various varieties.

also, I'm tending towards the Gerry Nicosia side, albeit from a totally

uneducated point of view. It's easy to get tied into a role in this kind

of discussion... so there's Jerry & Gerry & misc. vs Rod & Phil & whoever

and it really seems to get personal very easily, out of nobody's intention

& everybody's fault. Case in point being Paul M... side-issues become the

main deal & it's like being there while two opposing tables of lairily

drunk folks tilt slowly but inexorably towards a fairly inefficient

fistfight.

M'self, I think terms like "Sampas apologist" are a little too out

there... I'm not sure that anyone knows anything much about the *other

side* (tones of impending doom intended to be slightly ironic, before I

get pulverised) & further, I think it's a little too easy to identify with

your opinions until (point comin up soon, wait for it...) BY THIS POINT,

*EVERYONE* IS IN THE POSITION OF THINKING THEY'RE DEFENDING THEMSELVES

AGAINST SOME DEEPLY PERSONAL ATTACK...

I'm not trying to sound like a selfstyled diplomat. Honest. I want

everyone to keep speaking their minds... because that's the only way

anything gets resolved, in the long run. The fact that it may take about

twenty years this way is a minus, but perhaps endurable. It's entertaining

when people majorly abuse others personally, but that probably slows

things down as well...

Anyway, this'll do for now. Seriously, I think Gerry Nicosia is an

inestimable addition to the list, & things might be more mellow if

*everyone* just stopped escalating things by getting personal... (of

course, if anybody so much as raises an eyebrow at *anything* I've said in

this post I'll find out where you live & have your fucking legs broken...)

(nb. that was a joke)

Well, whatever. Keep going, everyone.

Olly Ruff.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:18:11 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Musing

My archive is bigger than your archive

You show me your archive and I'll show you mine.

How may archivists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

(apparently a lot, and even more if the lightbulb is xeroxed, and yet

more if there is a lawyer present)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:40:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alfred Lewen <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: New York Public Library (final post, this time I mean it)

Frpm what I gathered, I never purported to type up a list of the Kerouac

archives...it was a list of the things the Estate has either given as a gift

or sold to the NYPL. Nicosia what's your point? Are you saying if it isn't

there it's sold? What if he had it in safe deposit in Lowell? What business

of it is yours or anybody's? It belongs to the family in principle and

legally. Even I, who longs to see it as much as anybody else can understand

that. And there is nothing xeroxed in there. Once again you are wrong.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:35:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Paul Maher

At 08:20 PM 5/26/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:

>I have seen the will yes. I have also seen many documents

>(contracts for foreign publication rights etc. signed by

>Gabrielle Kerouac in the early 1970's)signed after the will

>which are almost 100% the same. The only slight change is the

>way the "c" at the end of Kerouac trails off. This is given to her

>invalid state. On this alone I came to my conclusion. There

>were other documents that sealed my decision that the

>will/forgery claim is a fraud. For instance, what made the

>signature look funny to Ms. Jan Kerouac anyways?

Paul,

Hmm, if you are not a specialist in forensic science how can

you make this judgement w/o any empirical data? This

goes for Jan's challenge as well. I'm not sure if anyone has

looked at said signature, but by backing up your claim with

questioning Jan's expertise on this matter, I believe you've

discredited your own theory. What makes your theory hold

water? Is it that Gabrielle Kerouac was in an "invalid state?"

Sounds like hearsay to me. Show me the $ Paul!!

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:38:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 26 May 1997 10:49:33 -0400 from <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Doesn't the notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:00:05 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Paul Maher <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Paul Maher

>Hmm, if you are not a specialist in forensic science how can

>you make this judgement w/o any empirical data? This

>goes for Jan's challenge as well. I'm not sure if anyone has

>looked at said signature, but by backing up your claim with

>questioning Jan's expertise on this matter, I believe you've

>discredited your own theory. What makes your theory hold

>water? Is it that Gabrielle Kerouac was in an "invalid state?"

>Sounds like hearsay to me. Show me the $ Paul!!

>Mike, i had meant that the will being compared to G. Kerouac's hand writ

specimen before her stroke is hardly proof or evidence. I never once said

mine was expert testimony. i was asked so I answered and made an opinion.

Take it for what it is worth. P.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:47:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: She-Ra <jennie42@ASU.EDU>

Subject: questions about Jack's death

While reading Dharma Bums yesterday a good question happened into my

mind... Does anyone think that one of the forces contributing to Jack's

alcoholism and death was the internal conflict between his Buddhist and

Catholic beliefs? I get the feeling that in his old (not really, but

lack of better word) age he was turning against all that he had done with

his life (shown in his dislike for the pranksters and such).. perhaps he

was feeling guilty, thus drank to lose feelings of guilt, and purposely

(as in leaving los vegas) drank himself to death? a slow suicide? I'm

just wondering, perhaps someone can help me out with this one?

jennie

****** jennie42@asu.edu ******

#28 There is no sin-

I know perfectly well

where I am

-Jack Kerouac

WE ARE SEARCHING

FOR RATIONAL REASONS

FOR BELIEVING

IN THE ABSURD

-Harold Norse (from the poem "Believing in the Absurd")

---------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:08:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

In-Reply-To: <970526184408_1955964541@emout09.mail.aol.com>

On Mon, 26 May 1997, Jerry Cimino wrote:

> Folks, I'm embarrassed for you. How can you keep silent allowing Anstee as

> well as Paul Maher to say the things they're saying about Nicosia?

> It's one thing to want to see peace on the list. That's fine if that's what

> you really want, but these guys are tossing everything but the kitchen sink

> at Nicosia and you sit silent! You should be flooding the list with notes to

> Anstee telling him how off base he is to bring private correspondance in to

> this!

> Every person on this list is being party to keeping this thread alive by

> all

owing Anstee to get away unscathed with these ridiculous assertions. I

> think Gerry has done remarkably well in maintaining his cool especially in

> light of Paul Maher's vitriolic posts.

> Right is right, people, regardless of what you may think about Nicosia or

> "his cause".

> Inaction is as much of a statement as action is.

> Jerry Cimino

dear jerry and all: i applaud the above--but remember that not all have

been silent about such cheapjack shots at gerry; i posted yesterday (or

so) much the same--just got a couple of lame "Buuuuuuut" messages in

response. go ahead, in the spirit of levi and others, and "hold [nicosia]

to a higher standard" because he is a world-class k. scholar. this is,

btw, the gist of levi's post re: my anger at cheap shots gerry's way.

baloney, rancid baloney. nobody should be held to a higher standard than

anybody else, scholar or not. there's shit and then there's shit? nah,

just shit. it all has the same low barnyard whiff.

posting personal letters is waaaay out of line; yada yada yada--i'd like

to think jack and the twisted living ghost of bill b. will very soon loom

up out of the red darkness and rip the lungs out of the right (and wrong)

swine who scrunch down in the muddy shadows of the whole $$$$$ For

Kerouac Gig! and before some mutant includes nicosia as a $$$ For Kerouac

Guy, note that $7500 bucks ain't blood gravey in anyone's book. for

chrise rake, he was sellin' his own bio's archive--not peddling k's goods!

one day we'll all have to meet to drink bombs in a nether lowell or

tangiers--and the monsters will be sorted out and go directly to

shitholes in the deepest circles of dante's condo complex.

love and fuses,

steve

Steve R. Smith

Graduate Teaching Assistant

Department of English

Portland State University

Box 751 Portland, OR 97207

503-725-3556

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:12:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: SAMPAS WHO? Re: a calm request

rinaldo,

First off, please don't be out off by the Sampas name on 'kicks joy

darkness'. the CD is well worth getting. Jim is the son of Stella's brother

Mike - john Sampas is his uncle.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:20:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Not Ashamed/Musing

James,

I don't agree with a lot of what you say in your "not ashamed post" and I'm

glad YOU used the "Good German" analogy and not me as I don't want to be

acused of calling anyone a Nazi/"Adolph Hitler apologist" or anything else.

And I laughed out loud w/regard to your lightbulb joke!

James, I'm not a Nicosia groupie and I certainly don't genuflect at his

alter. Quite frankly I think Gerry is off base on certain things. I wish he

wouldn't accuse everybody who's ever heard of John Sampas as being in bed

with him. I think that's counter-productive and hurts his cause and

alienates people who could otherwise be his allies.

The point though, James, is Nicosia is inextricably intertwined with the

cause of Saving Jack's Archives. You and many others obviously don't think

that is a good thing, but I do and Nicosia is the only person doing anything

about it. He's leading the charge! I don't see anybody else raising their

hand to do it. I certainly couldn't do it even if I wanted to try. And I

don't think there is one other person out there who could. With Jan dead

there is no one else. Nicosia is it, whether anyone (including him!) likes

it or not.

And you'll note, James, I didn't ask anyone to stand up for Nicosia. I asked

people to put Rod in his place with regard to making false and/or

unsubstantiated claims. There is a difference.

Like I said I don't agree with everything Gerry says or does but I do think

he's right to try to save Jack's Archives.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:19:08 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Beat-l

Enough is enough. Sure, the Kerouac Estate is meat for discussion but

this listdoes NOT exist for listmembers to curse at each other and

insult one another personally. If you want to do this, I'll say again,

TAKE IT OFF THE LIST!

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:33:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

Steve/Whisky,

I noted your response to Levi' post the other day. I was heartened to see

it, but posts like yours have been few and far between as we all know.

Frankly, I was also heartened to see Levi's post as well. I thought it was a

very well reasoned and impassioned plea to Gerry to recognize people Gerry

percieves as enemies aren't necessarily out to hurt him. I personally think

that is the case with both Levi and Atilla. Just because Dharma Beat accepts

an ad from Viking/Penguin does not mean Atilla is in bed w/Sampas as Gerry

seems to think. I can say that from my perspective, but I can also

understand Gerry's perspective as well.

When my wife and I owned our coffeehouse/bookstore and were losing our shirts

it was very easy for us to view our regular customers who walked in with a B.

Dalton's bag full of books or a Starbuck's cup of coffee as "disloyal" who

didn't give a damn about us and our business. We learned very quickly that

people will always do what is in their own best interest. We all do that.

And if somebody could save a few bucks by going to B. Dalton or if

Starbuck's happened to be closer to where they were when they got the urge

for a cup of coffee, they weren't doing anything against us... they were just

doing what they thought was best for them.

And that's how I view Atilla taking advertising from Viking. That doesn't

have to make him Gerry's enemy. But take it from one who knows, when you're

in the heat of battle, anyone who isn't shooting in the same direction as you

is the enemy! Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it's human nature that it

is.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:43:08 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Not Ashamed/Musing

Jerry Cimino wrote:

> James,

> I don't agree with a lot of what you say in your "not ashamed post" and I'm

> glad YOU used the "Good German" analogy and not me as I don't want to be

> acused of calling anyone a Nazi/"Adolph Hitler apologist" or anything else.

> And I laughed out loud w/regard to your lightbulb joke!

> James, I'm not a Nicosia groupie and I certainly don't genuflect at his

> alter. Quite frankly I think Gerry is off base on certain things. I wish he

> wouldn't accuse everybody who's ever heard of John Sampas as being in bed

> with him. I think that's counter-productive and hurts his cause and

> alienates people who could otherwise be his allies.

> The point though, James, is Nicosia is inextricably intertwined with the

> cause of Saving Jack's Archives. You and many others obviously don't think

> that is a good thing, but I do and Nicosia is the only person doing anything

> about it. He's leading the charge! I don't see anybody else raising their

> hand to do it. I certainly couldn't do it even if I wanted to try. And I

> don't think there is one other person out there who could. With Jan dead

> there is no one else. Nicosia is it, whether anyone (including him!) likes

> it or not.

> And you'll note, James, I didn't ask anyone to stand up for Nicosia. I asked

> people to put Rod in his place with regard to making false and/or

> unsubstantiated claims. There is a difference.

> Like I said I don't agree with everything Gerry says or does but I do think

> he's right to try to save Jack's Archives.

> Jerry Cimino

Jerry,

I agree with you more than you think. I think the real problem is that

Gerry is so damn conspiracy driven that he fatally hurts his own cause.

I've always said, he may well be right, but he loses all credibity with

me by the "in bed" with SAmpas think. Let him win in court. He isn't

going to court against Anastee or Maher but the Sampas family. l hope

there is an archive, but I doubt it will happen, because as I said

earlier that as long as Sampas and Lash control 2/3's I don't see how

anyone will be able to work with Nicosia. It would have to be his way

or the highway. Maybe I read him wrong, but he certainly doesn't come

off as capable of compromising with the Sampas people at all.

In his last backchannel to me he was explaining to me how essentially he

is responsible for everything Ann Charters knows about Jack. She speaks

respectfully of him, he can't mention her without remembering that she

didn't take his side with Jan. Maybe Jan was an angel, or maybe she was

hard to deal with--I don't know, but it seems to me that Ann's failure

to join Jan's cause doesn't just wipe out her biographical and editing

achievements.

Frankly, I keep vowing to shut up and only post things like Mitchell's.

James

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:51:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

In a message dated 97-05-26 14:03:18 EDT, you write:

> NONE OF THE XEROXES I SOLD TO LOWELL WERE THE PROPERTY OF OTHER

LIBRARIES. GOT THAT?

Sorry, I'm still confused here Gerry. Are you saying that amongst the stuff

you transferred to the library in Lowell in 1987, there was absolutely no

material that was the property of other libraries, or are you saying that the

part you "sold" was free of this class of material, and that any material of

this kind was simply "donated" instead. You know that there WAS material of

this sort in the archive, or at least back then you indicated as such -- some

people seem to get upset when I quote directly from your letters from 1987,

so without quoting directly this time, I can refer to another letter in which

you specifically mentioned, for example, that your copies of the JK/Cowley

letters had been transferred to Lowell amongst the rest of the archive. As

you know, that material (in original form) has a home in the Newberry

Library. Are you saying now that the Cowley letter (xeroxes) were never

transferred? The date on the letter I'm not going to quote from is 25

October, 1987. Was your statement about them in that letter wrong?

Unfortunately we weren't discussing the JK/AG correspondence at the time, so

I have no contemporary references to them.

CHEERS Rod (Yes, soccer went well, thanks.)

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:47:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: 10 most important

1) ON THE ROAD

2) THE DHARMA BUMS

3) DR. SAX

4) THE SUBTERRANEANS

5) VISIONS OF GERARD

6) VISIONS OF CODY

7) VANITY OF DULUOZ

8) BIG SUR

9) DESOLATION ANGELS

10) MEXICO CITY BLUES

I like Satori (sp?) in Paris.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:50:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: New York Public Library (final post, this time I mean it)

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> <snip the whole thing>

> Best always, Gerry Nicosia

Damn, that was an informative post, whatever the motivation, Gerry, I

hope you will not unsubscribe. I would like to know more. Just get a

thicker skin. Please.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:00:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Letter to Mayo

Bentz,

Gerry has already pointed out that it was not Mayo who negotiated

the purchase from Gerry.

* "In a way I am quite surprised, in retrospect, that Martha Mayo agreed to

* purchase these in the first place, knowing that many of them (originals) are

* the property of other libraries."

I believe Gerry has intimated - although Rod pushed the point in a

leter post - that the Columbia letter was not part of the purchase/donation.

* He goes on to then state that Gerry Nicosia

* sold to your library a photocopy of a letter from Jack Kerouac to Allen

* Ginsberg dated April 8, 1952 even though it has the instructions on it

that the

* copy is to be returned to Columbia University.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:56:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick

Bill Gargan wrote:

> Doesn't the notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?

I don't know about copyright law and am asking for those who do to

enlighten us.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:01:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Post on Archives

In a message dated 97-05-26 15:25:25 EDT, you write:

>" But no xerox that was owned by another library was

>included in the body of material that was finally transferred to U Mass,

>Lowell.

Ah, since he makes this statement with crystal clarity, why pussyfoot

around!? Here's what Gerry wrote to me 25 October, 1987:

"I didn't get time to go through the Cowley letters which are now on deposit

in Lowell, at the U. of Lowell, but will remain a locked collection till

Martha Mayo gets it all catalogued."

I fear it's a contradiction, our Gerry.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:06:46 -0700

Reply-To: david@cyberwarecom.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David McClusky <david@CYBERWARECOM.COM>

Organization: CyberWare Communications (http://www.cyberwarecom.com)

Subject: Beat Generation Essay

Hey everyone..

I have posted a very rough draft (uncompleted) on an essay I am writing

on the Beat Generation for my high school english class. If anyone

wants to take a look at it and give me their thoughts thanks. (remember,

high school english.)

The address is http://www.cyberwarecom.com/david/beatgen.htm

Thanks!

David McClusky

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:15:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Calling Bill Gargan

May 26, 1997

Did anyone pick up on the fact that Rod Anstee, after accusing me of

selling stolen items, proceeded to print one of my private letters on the

internet (the equivalent of publishing it), in complete violation of my own

I.e., Mr. Anstee has committed the crime of copyright infringement

right in front of all your eyes.

I call on Bill Gargan to stop this kind of rogue activity

immediately, and if Mr. Anstee will not desist from such criminal behavior,

to cut off his Beat-List privileges.

Thank you.

Yours truly,

Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:37:50 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Mr. Anstee Continues Breaking the Law

Comments: cc: WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

To Rod Anstee: May 26, 1997

You are breaking the law (copyright infringement) by printing my

private, unpublished letters on the Beat-List. If this continues, I will

have to take legal action against both you and the Beat-List.

I therefore call upon Mr. Bill Gargan to suspend Mr. Anstee's

Beat-List privileges at once, as he refuses to stop this rogue behavior.

Mr. Anstee has no knowledge of my relationship with the Newberry

Library or any other library, under what conditions and restrictions copies

were made, etc. He nevertheless continues to throw aspersions at me,

insinuating that I have somehow sold stolen materials, which is a clear

defamation of my character.

I repudiate all his accusations, and will hold him accountable for

every one of them.

Yours truly,

Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:41:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

> one day we'll all have to meet to drink bombs in a nether lowell or

> tangiers--and the monsters will be sorted out and go directly to

> shitholes in the deepest circles of dante's condo complex.

please make sure i get invited to this ....

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:45:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Rod Is Off Base!

Rod,

Why do you insist on making the MEMORY BABE Archive the issue, here?

The issue is Jack's Archives, not Nicosia's.

Jack Kerouac is the author we're concerned about here. Why do you insist on

making Nicosia the issue.

Rod, I can't tell you how disillusioned I am with you that you would make

private correspondance with Gerry public to support your position here. You

are a very low human being indeed. I won't ever trust another word you say.

This is dispicable!

TO EVERYONE ELSE ON THE BEAT-L: Here's what you get for keeping silent. If

any of you have ever sent Anstee a letter I'd be looking over what you wrote

if I were you!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:55:44 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Mr. Anstee Continues Breaking the Law

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> To Rod Anstee: May 26, 1997

> You are breaking the law (copyright infringement) by printing my

> private, unpublished letters on the Beat-List. If this continues, I will

> have to take legal action against both you and the Beat-List.

> I therefore call upon Mr. Bill Gargan to suspend Mr. Anstee's

> Beat-List privileges at once, as he refuses to stop this rogue behavior.

> Mr. Anstee has no knowledge of my relationship with the Newberry

> Library or any other library, under what conditions and restrictions copies

> were made, etc. He nevertheless continues to throw aspersions at me,

> insinuating that I have somehow sold stolen materials, which is a clear

> defamation of my character.

> I repudiate all his accusations, and will hold him accountable for

> every one of them.

> Yours truly,

> Gerald Nicosia

it has been years since I read anything concerning copyright law. i

primarily was concerned with fair use in relation to montage art. i

must admit to skimming much of Nimmer's duller moments on other

subjects. it seems doubtful to me that the "recipient" of a letter does

not have equal liberty to use the material as s/he sees fit. i have no

legal library at my disposal currently to test this doubt. if you're

familiar with particular copyright laws which have been violated, it

would help those of us who observe this foray if you would point to them

in your public accusations. i hope that others have caught the grand

irony in your publicly accusing others of crimes after having chastised

others for self-same action merely days ago.

i hope you have a pleasant evening. i'm off to peruse more of Dharma

Lions. Today's postings have soiled my eyes to reading anything further

about Jack which is a shame i suppose.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:09:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

RACE --- wrote:

> Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

> > one day we'll all have to meet to drink bombs in a nether lowell or

> > tangiers--and the monsters will be sorted out and go directly to

> > shitholes in the deepest circles of dante's condo complex.

> >

> please make sure i get invited to this ....

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

David:

I think I would prefer to watch from a safe distance. :-)

What about trading for Duncan ooopppsss, wrong list.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:01:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.

Marie Countryman wrote:

> thinking about kerouac

> or,

> spontaneous sidewalk

> what is it with me, lately?

> i keep buying books.

> i'm poor

> but would rather go hungry

> than be hungry for words

> i want to be a writer.

> i read lots of writers

> lots of poetry

> lots of prose

> lots of writers writing about writing

> and critics who write about

> them,

> until i get to feeling like the quaker oats man

> who is pictured on the label

> holding another quaker box

> with a little

> quaker man, holding,

> you know?

> i mean, when does he ever eat the oatmeal?

> i throw over my captors,

> selfconsciouness and fear,

> and break free

> and up from the depths of my

> inarticulate soul

> the voices spoke to me of kerouac,

> and

> word sketches writ down in the moment.

> now i stop all thought,

> and, suddenly,

> finally !

> i am left with IT!

> jack 's

> spontaneous prose

> writ in humble small pad

> full of word sketches

> novels

> poetry

> prose

> and

> emboldened,

> out i go, tiny pad in pocket

> looking avidly for

> the perfect

> poetic moment

> to capture in words,

> a stupenousllyspontaenously

> experience of IT

> and so, i go, casting

> eyes to sky

> and down to

> earth

> & cement.

> i walk quite a bit,

> and then further.

> no epiphanies.

> my pad begins to sweat.

> i stop.

> and then i look about.

> i am standing

> in the midst

> of a cheery

> hop scotch

> scrawled in blue chalk.

> i had my note pad ready

> to capture it all,

> a fine lot of writing

> to be done in the moment,

> a frenzy of scribbling

> of making it new,

> until, quite suddenly,

> despite lingering winter chill

> i stood enveloped in the warmth of

> twilight days

> of summer.

> mothers' voices on the breeze

> giving last call for play

> with

> just

> one

> more

> game

> of hop scotch,

> marbles, jumprope

> kick the can ... (allly ally outs in free.....

> voices called out

> in my mind)

> on a sunlit afternoon this spring

> i stood in twilight summer haze

> feeling once again

> dirty hands and sticky faces,

> bare feet on dewy grass...

> touch

> taste

> sight

> sounds

> alive!

> i stood before the chalked outlines

> scribbling furiously.

> ithen dashed off

> to read my pocket ful of

> sketched

> impressions,

> literary

> allusions,

> and all things real with potency.

> yes, i feel like a real poet now.

> as i

> sit down excitedly

> to transcribe my notes

> and fashion a pome.

> i open my notebook :

> no words at all,

> only the sketch

> of hopscotch blocks,

> blue chalk and all.

> @mc/517/97

> revised 5/26/97

Thanks for an excellent poem and one of the two out of 50 posts that did

not involve name-calling or legal action. Tomorrow, Tuesday, let's have

everyone on the list post one poem, story, or idea about beat literature.

I bet there are about 200 people out there that want to do just that.

I'll start myself first thing in the morning.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:16:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

H H

{8^>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:20:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.

Diane Carter wrote:

> <snip absolutely sweet marie>

> Thanks for an excellent poem and one of the two out of 50 posts that

> did

> not involve name-calling or legal action. Tomorrow, Tuesday, let's

> have

> everyone on the list post one poem, story, or idea about beat

> literature.

> I bet there are about 200 people out there that want to do just that.

> I'll start myself first thing in the morning.

Diane,

I am down with that.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:28:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: questions about Jack's death

At 05:47 PM 5/26/97 -0700, jennie wrote:

>While reading Dharma Bums yesterday a good question

>happened into my mind... Does anyone think that one

>of the forces contributing to Jack's alcoholism and death

>was the internal conflict between his Buddhist and

>Catholic beliefs? I get the feeling that in his old (not really,

>but lack of better word) age he was turning against all that

>he had done with his life (shown in his dislike for the

>pranksters and such).. perhaps he was feeling guilty, thus

>drank to lose feelings of guilt, and purposely (as in leaving los

>vegas) drank himself to death? a slow suicide? I'm

>just wondering, perhaps someone can help me out with

>this one?

Hey Jennie,

Thought I'd throw this at ya:

from _Tristessa_ ~ Jack Kerouac

* * * * *

"EL INDIO GOES out and gets meat sandwiches and now

the cat goes mad yelling and mewing for some and El Indio

throws her off the bed--but Cat finally gets a bite of meat

and ronches at it like a mad little Tiger and I think "If she

was as big as the one in the zoo, she'd look at me with big

green eyes before eating me." I'm having a fairy tale of

Saturday night, having a good time actually because of

the booze and the good cheer and the careless people--

enjoying the little animals--noticing the little Chihuahua

pup now meekly waiting for a bite of meat or bread with

her tail curled in and woe, if she ever inherits the earth

it'll be because of meek--Ears curled back and even

whimpering the little Chihuahua smalldog fear-cry--

Nevertheless she's been alternately watching us and

sleeping all night, and her own reflections on the

subject of Nirvana and death and mortals biding time

till death, are of a whimpering high frequency terrified

tender variety--and the kind that says 'Leave me alone,

I am so delicate' and you leave her alone in her little

fragile shell like the shell of canoes over the ocean deeps--

I wish I could communicate to all these creatures and

people, in the flesh of my moonshine goodtimes the cloud

mystery of the magic milk to be seen in Mind's Deep

Imagery where we learn that everything is nothing--in

which case they wouldnt worry any more, except after the

instant they think to worry again--All of us trembling in

our mortality boots, born to die, BORN TO DIE I could write

it on the wall and on Walls all over America--Dove in wings

of peace, with her Noah Menagery Moonshine Eyes; dog

with clitty claws black and shiny, to die is born, trembles in

her purple eyes, her little weak bloodvessels down the ribs;

yeah the ribs of Chihuahua, and Tristessa's ribs too,

beautiful ribs, her with her aunts in Chihuahua also

born to die, beautiful to be ugly, quick to be dead, glad to

be sad, mad to be had--and the El Indio death, born to

die, the man, so he plies the needle of Saturday Night

every night is Saturday night and goes wild to wait, what

else can he do,--The death of Cruz, the drizzles of religion

falling on her burial fields, the grim mouth planted in the

satin of the earth coffin, . . . I moan to recover all that magic,

remembering my own impending death, 'If only I had the

magic self of babyhood when I remembered what it was

like before I was born, I wouldnt worry about death now

knowing both to be the same empty dream'--But what will

the Rooster say when it dies, and someone hacks a knife

in its fragile chin--And sweet Hen, she who eats out of

Tristessa's paw a globule of beer, her beak miffling like

human lips to chirn up the milk of the beer--when she

dies, sweet hen, Tristessa who loves her will save her

lucky bone and wrap it in red thread and keep it in her

belongings, nevertheless sweet Mother Hen of our Arc

of Noah Night, she the golden purveyor and reaches so

far back you can't find the egg that prompted her outward

through the first original shell, they'll hack and whack

at her tail with hacksaws and make mincemeat out of

her that you run through an iron grinder turning handle,

and would you wonder why she trembles from fear of

punishment too? And the death of the cat, little dead rat

in the gutter with twisted yickface--I wish I could

communicate to all their combined fears of death the

Teaching that I have heard from Ages of Old, that

recompenses all that pain with soft reward of perfect silent

love abiding up and down and in and out everywhere past,

present, and future in the Void unknown where nothing

happens and all simply is what is. But they know that

themselves, beast and jackal and love woman, and my

Teaching of Old is indeed so old they've heard it long

ago before my time.

I become depressed and I gotta go home. Everyone of

us, born to die."

* * * * *

Thought this might fit in to your question, somewhere?

I was just re-reading this and stumbled across this part

last night, your question brought back some of the

same questions floating through my skull. I'll get

back to this when I have time, but I thought you

might like the text?

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:59:45 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Well, as if I have not already asked for it, and then this

Well, I don't know if he did, but a person told me he forwarded to the

list a poem I wrote back in 1976 or so about Jack and Allen. If not, I

will dig it out and post it. But in an effort to begin to get more

literary and expose myself to full critisim, I am going to post a couple

of poems I wrote back in 1973 or so when I first started reading beats.

I was exposed to Ferlinghetti and Corso in a college lit class and

before reading Jack, decided that I was going to be a poet like them and

Ginsberg. So, this is what stumbled out. I figure everyone's pissed at

me anyway, so why not some bad teenage poetry to boot.

Solitary Rider

Solitary rider,

Distant strider,

me, alone, apart.

Traveling free

Of chains that hold

Some men back.

(They don't hold me,

These chains,

I must break free.)

Search, quest,

Else I am doomed,

To spend my life

With these chains upon my heart.

Bentz Kirby, 1973

Baptist College at Charleston, South Carolina

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:16:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: 10 most important

I hope not in any order?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:13:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Ma Tucker

This is one I never finished. I figured it was beyond my reach and was

really a short story.

Ma Tucker's, Reasonable Rates

On this dusty sofa, in her mother's den,

She sits, renting rooms for $5.00 a night.

I stayed there once.

Upon leaving, it was Sunday and

Texaco played an opera on the radio.

Suppose she was 45, looked 65,

Beaten look, boredom had written

The lines in her face with a sharpe pen.

Life for her was over,

I could not see her eyes.

She looked at us,

Kristi, me, and said,

"You are so lucky.

I envy you.

You are so young,

And have your lifes before you.

And you have each other,

and me, ...."

Just then, I say a light, that was gone again.

Her mother, Ma Tucker, turned,

"You have me."

She patted her mother's hand

With more love than I could understand.

"Yes, mother, I have you."

She gave us advice about

Living each day as it comes,

To love each other,

And we looked into each other,

Kristi and I and saw the same.

We could not

Ease her pain.

We could not take her with us,

So we left her there,

With her mother,

And they rent rooms,

$5.00 a night.

Reasonable rates,

At any hotel.

Typing this brings a particular sadness to my heart. About one year

ago at the age of 39, Kristi committed suicide. The sadness is deep

and I miss her pained spirit. But needless to say, we were not who Ma

Tuckers daughter thought us to be. This is almost word for word and is

not really a poem. Just an observation.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:36:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: The cat-fight

Walt and Deanie's, a neighborhood bar

50's style hole in the wall

their specialty pork tenderloins

and a 3:00 license

the place is a mecca

after last calls all over town

I'm savoring Miller Lite and mulling over my own tenderloin (barely nibbled)

when the proverbial cat-fight hits

at the very next table

a pregnant woman pitches a mixed drink on a chick in a miniskirt

which leads naturally to hairpulling and scratching

there are four of them

it's so dramatic

glass splinters on the brown linoleum

John Fogarty 's dark voice drones

my drinking buddy I see is glowing and twitching

she likes a fight

I say have your unneccesary fun but don't expect me to jump in behind you

I have to say it loud, over the banshees and the furniture

she thinks a second

she rolls her glass in her hand

Suddenly big Walt's all around the sisters

he carries them out the door still hissing a little

the gravid one wails

"But she called me a slut"

"Honey, you're all sluts"

explains Walt,

patiently

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:44:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rod Anstee <Nastees@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!

At least I'm not being accused of mis-quoting!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:44:54 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Memory Babe Archive

Reply to message from Nastees@AOL.COM of Mon, 26 May

>In a message dated 97-05-26 14:03:18 EDT, you write:

>> NONE OF THE XEROXES I SOLD TO LOWELL WERE THE PROPERTY OF OTHER

>>LIBRARIES. GOT THAT?

>Sorry, I'm still confused here Gerry. Are you saying that amongst the stuff

>you transferred to the library in Lowell in 1987, there was absolutely no

>material that was the property of other libraries, or are you saying that the

>part you "sold" was free of this class of material, and that any material of

>this kind was simply "donated" instead. You know that there WAS material of

Didn't you read his original post? He said he didn't necessarily donate

anything, that it was more or less all sold but at a lower price then it

was really worth so some of the stuff could be considered donated but

nothing was specifically tagged as being specifically donated! (If my

paraphrasing is wrong, I'm sorry, go re-read the original post then. I'm

only a very recent college graduate, no credentials of any kind, but Mr.

Nicosia's (sp?) original post made sense to me, at least...)

And....for everyone discussing this....since every legal loophole is being

dragged out, people do not xerox, they photocopy. The sheet of paper is

not a xerox, it's a photocopy; Xerox is a registered trademark and is not

supposed to be used as a noun/verb. Just read the Xerox advertisements in your

copy of _Writer's Digest_. And the ones for Kleenex & Crayola Crayons &

for Day-Glo and Post-It Notes. They're really quite amusing.

>this sort in the archive, or at least back then you indicated as such -- some

>people seem to get upset when I quote directly from your letters from 1987,

>so without quoting directly this time, I can refer to another letter in which

>you specifically mentioned, for example, that your copies of the JK/Cowley

>letters had been transferred to Lowell amongst the rest of the archive. As

>you know, that material (in original form) has a home in the Newberry

>Library. Are you saying now that the Cowley letter (xeroxes) were never

>transferred? The date on the letter I'm not going to quote from is 25

>October, 1987. Was your statement about them in that letter wrong?

>Unfortunately we weren't discussing the JK/AG correspondence at the time, so

>I have no contemporary references to them.

>CHEERS Rod (Yes, soccer went well, thanks.)

Is Mr. Nicosia on trial here? How do any of these matters that you've

written about in this post really concern the Beat-L, Mr. Anastee (sp?)?

Why are you purposely trying to discredit Mr. Nicosia so that his arguments for

preserving Jack Kerouac's archives come off as tainted? You aren't the

lawyer here. Leave the poor guy alone & post something semi-relevant to

the other 198 (it's an aproximation) people on this list, please?

Diane Homza.

"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

--Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:42:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: One last little thing on the poetry end

Falling

Love

Will never pain me again.

I am keeping my eyes OPEN

So I can see just when

Fall

Out

Again!

This one of my first word plays from back in the early 70's. I don't

know if anyone is interested in more of the Toxic City, but how about

the meat counter, check out and etc. I wrote a good country, uh, not

you know that other word, song once about that. Swinging Singles in the

Supermarket. Oh well, as I always say, I wish I was as funny as I

think I am.

Off to build a beat link page. I guess I'll list Levi first. But, why

can't I get into the Cosmic Baseball site. Let me hear from you

Clark@clark.clark.net.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:47:57 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ma Tucker

Reply to message from bocelts@SCSN.NET of Tue, 27 May

>Ma Tucker's, Reasonable Rates

(snipped)

>--

>Typing this brings a particular sadness to my heart. About one year

>ago at the age of 39, Kristi committed suicide. The sadness is deep

>and I miss her pained spirit. But needless to say, we were not who Ma

>Tuckers daughter thought us to be. This is almost word for word and is

>not really a poem. Just an observation.

>Peace,

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

still very touching :) thanks for sharing it!

Diane.

"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

--Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:53:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Allen's Memorial

Not meaning to break the estate thread (SURE, I don't mean to!) -- but I

would like to know if anyone else plans to attend the June 8th memorial in

Paterson for Allen. I'm lucky -- I live across the river (or down the

highway, depending how you go) and will easily be there.

Just to bring Allen up for a sentence of two more. I was thrilled to see his

poem in the New Yorker mention his reading year long past at Montclair State

Teachers College (a name long outgrown as that is now Montclair State

Univeristy). I was then a wide-eyed freshman and, because of my friendship

with someone in charge of something (activities? auditorium lighting? Who

knows?), became part of the charmed circle who met the bearded gentle giant.

Thirty years later, I consider that brief meeting a momentous occasion in my

life. He made a comment about sunshine and stars and my name. (So, he was

charming as well. Go figure!)

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:05:32 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!

Rod wrote:

"At least I'm not being accused of mis-quoting!"

No Rod, you're only being accused of criminal activity! Any mistake I've

ever made on the Beat-l has been an honest error. You on the other hand

enjoy hurting people. Tearing at them. Betraying their confidence.

You're a real stand up guy, Rod!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:04:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Charlie and billie were travelers

Charley Plymell and son billy arrived in Lawrence aroung 5: to a

memorial mixed family, hippy and suit shrimp dinner, jim McCrary and Sue

Brussoue (David Ohles wife) welcomed him, H stood ranting over me

quietly as I write.

Patricia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:47:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: questions about Jack's death

She-Ra wrote:

> While reading Dharma Bums yesterday a good question happened into my

> mind... Does anyone think that one of the forces contributing to Jack's

> alcoholism and death was the internal conflict between his Buddhist and

> Catholic beliefs? I get the feeling that in his old (not really, but

> lack of better word) age he was turning against all that he had done with

> his life (shown in his dislike for the pranksters and such).. perhaps he

> was feeling guilty, thus drank to lose feelings of guilt, and purposely

> (as in leaving los vegas) drank himself to death? a slow suicide? I'm

> just wondering, perhaps someone can help me out with this one?

> jennie

> ****** jennie42@asu.edu ******

> #28 There is no sin-

> I know perfectly well

> where I am

> -Jack Kerouac

> WE ARE SEARCHING

> FOR RATIONAL REASONS

> FOR BELIEVING

> IN THE ABSURD

> -Harold Norse (from the poem "Believing in the Absurd")

> ---------------------------------------

i think about that conflict often. imagining the pope and zen master in

a fist fight over whiskey at Joe's bar and grill. certainly a lesson in

accepting opposites. such strains Affect the psyche i guarantee.

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:27:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Late night and Kicks Joy Darkness

Kicks, Joy, Darkness

some selected readings suggested while listening to the KJC CD.

Lord Byron. 1788-1824.

... Still from the fount of joy's delicious springs

... On with the dance! let joy be unconfined;

... And storm and darkness! ye are wondrous strong,

... And I have loved thee, Ocean! and my joy

... There 's not a joy the world can give like that it takes away.

... All who joy would win

... From crowns to kicks, according to their vices. 38

Joy, Darkness

William Shakespeare. Macbeth.

... The instruments of darkness tell us truths,

... I drink to the general joy o' the whole table.

John Milton. 1608-1674.

... No light, but rather darkness visible.

... Where joy forever dwells: hail, horrors!

... With joy and love triumphing.

... Such joy ambition finds.

... Of darkness till it smil'd!

... May sit i' th' centre and enjoy bright day;

... Enjoy your dear wit and gay rhetoric,

Alexander Pope. 1688-1744.

... And more true joy Marcellus exil'd feels

... And universal darkness buries all.

... Who ne'er knew joy but friendship might divide,

... The melancholy joy of evils past:

... (The good man prolongs his life; to be able to enjoy one's past life

is to live twice).--Martial, x.

237.

Henry W. Longfellow. 1807-1882.

... The day is done, and the darkness

... Must love and joy and sorrow learn;

Robert Browning. 1812-1890.

... For life, with all it yields of joy and woe,

... Of pain, darkness, and cold.

James Russell Lowell. 1819-1891.

... And the choice goes by forever 'twixt that darkness and that light.

... Joy comes, grief goes, we know not how.

Old Testament.

... The land of darkness and the shadow of death.

... Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is Mount Zion,

... the city of the great King.

... Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for... the

destruction that wasteth at noonday. 37

... Give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the

garment of praise for the spirit of

heaviness.

... The hill of Sion is a fair place, and the joy of the whole

earth.--Ibid.

... For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor for the sickness

that destroyeth in the

noonday.--Ibid.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:00:17 +0200

Reply-To: smeraldo.press@iol.it

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo <smeraldo.press@IOL.IT>

Organization: Teatro Smeraldo

Subject: Jack & Jazz

Hi everybody!

from the "cloudy shores of Italy", I have two questions to ask you:

- which kind of LIVE jazz was jack kerouac used to listen to during his

life? I mean: in which jazz clubs did he go often to, in which towns and

in which period? Do exist any LETTER (apart from references contained in

published books) in which these details are booked, or does he remember

any live jam session or jazz musician he met or knew?

- who are the jazz musicians playing with him during his Mexico City

Blues and On The Road reading recording? I have a "copy-of-the-copy" of

that tape and no one could tell me when, where and with whom it was

recorded...

Thank you very much for your help.

Bye, Laura :.)

Laura Moja

Ufficio Stampa

Teatro Smeraldo

smeraldo.press@iol.it

http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:21:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: A Note to the Peacekeepers

In-Reply-To: <970526184408_1955964541@emout09.mail.aol.com>

hey jerry:

usually i am an active participant in restoring peace to the list, as many

here may know. actually, i had unsubbed, then when i returned, i came into

the fur flying and furiously long posts, took me a long time to get my

sealegs.

i've held off until i could read all of mr anstee's voluminous and

vitriolic posts, a dirty job, but in interests of truth and some justice,

i had to sort this whole danged mess out.

and rod

i'm not in the least surprised to find you up to your usual tricks, just

sad to see that once again, you rely on acid rather than your own batteries.

-to live outside the law you must be honest - i think bob dylan sed that...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:21:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...

In-Reply-To: <9704268646.AA864695151@Mail.ff.cc.mn.us>

wes wrote

>Hello, Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's a reason I never post

>anything

>to Rod Anstee. I still remember the crap he threw at Ron Whitehead (not to

>mention others). He's a man with his own agenda, and he does what strikes his

>fancy... whether anybody "puts up with it" or not. Silence is not being party

>to him. So, since my inaction is a statement, let the statement be I

>won't be a

>party to any of it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my

>actions

>or reactions. As I posted in an open letter to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's

>made his point, and made it well. The other guys are just making asses out of

>themselves... my impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.

>Why should I waste my time posting to them? It won't change anything they do.

>Only reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.

>All the best, ---Wes

*****************

hello wes! couldnt agree more, and believe i said same the last time rod

bullied one of our angels off list, i still miss ron whitehead, too, wes.

and i dislike bullies intensely.

yrs

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 05:21:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: send lawyers guns and money the shit has hit the fan

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970526194611.006b2538@pop.pipeline.com>

gads.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:44:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: any one know if this is still in print?

In-Reply-To: <970526224507_2086822789@emout14.mail.aol.com>

Elegiac Feelings American and was published in

paperback by New Directions Books

333 Sixth Avenue

New York, NY 10014

____________

i so enjoyed rBk's quotations and would love to get my hands on a copy.

thanks all.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:44:15 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Ma Tucker

In-Reply-To: <338A5F51.AB136E36@scsn.net>

rBk wrote (snip fore and aft)

>She gave us advice about

>Living each day as it comes,

>To love each other,

>And we looked into each other,

>Kristi and I and saw the same.

>We could not

>Ease her pain.

>We could not take her with us,

>So we left her there,

>With her mother,

>And they rent rooms,

>$5.00 a night.

>Reasonable rates,

>At any hotel.

>--

>Typing this brings a particular sadness to my heart. About one year

>ago at the age of 39, Kristi committed suicide. The sadness is deep

>and I miss her pained spirit. But needless to say, we were not who Ma

>Tuckers daughter thought us to be. This is almost word for word and is

>not really a poem. Just an observation.

____________

thanks, rBk. and the above quote is poignantly poetic.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:10:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: talk dirty to me <mutton@JANE.PENN.COM>

Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!

i wish we all had i-phones so we could really rip

and tear. maybe even video conferencing

woo hooooo!!!

jeremy

----------

: From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

: To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

: Subject: Re: Rod Is Off Base!

: Date: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 12:05 AM

: Rod wrote:

: "At least I'm not being accused of mis-quoting!"

: No Rod, you're only being accused of criminal activity! Any mistake I've

: ever made on the Beat-l has been an honest error. You on the other hand

: enjoy hurting people. Tearing at them. Betraying their confidence.

: You're a real stand up guy, Rod!

: Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:15:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: send lawyers guns and money the shit has hit the fan

Thanx Marie,

Think I'll go throw on some Warren Zevon and do

the Wilbury Twist. {;^>

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:31:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: "...a gum in your hand?!?"

Jerry Cimino wrote:

"...anyone who isn't shooting in the same direction as you

is the enemy! Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it's human nature that it

is."

Which is why arguing with a 'gun' in your hand/mouth is such a bad,

and unworkable idea.

....always good to check one's spelling; I had 'gum' instead

of 'gun' first time!

"If you're not with me, you must be against me." is a nice

simpifying assumption if you're choosing religious sides, but has no place

on the Beat list. We're all a little right and a little wrong with lots of

usable stuff in the middle..

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:32:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Hoops anyone?

Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

seemingly bred of Gaelic

Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

Ref: ********

Bill Gargan

Coach:**********

Jan Kerouac John Sampas

Team members:************

The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

language of choice when swearing!

...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

feast!

Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:04:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Antoine, it is a glub

Antoine,

Did you ever see the Woody Allen movie where he went to rob a bank and

could not print clearly? He got into an argument with the teller who

insisted his note said "glub" and not "gun." Damn funny scene. Me I

try not to worry too much about spulling. I mean, we don't spull win we

tulk, do we?

Well to hide from pre-school children maybe, but otherwise, not.

Happiness is a warm glub,

Bang bang shoot shoot

Happiness is a warm glug.

Lennon/McCartney

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:10:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

In-Reply-To: <199705271132.HAA25507@biggs.microtec.net>

i'll substitute for the ball, which will probably be immediately

deconstructed, leaving me

and my soul

benched

in heaven

>Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

>seemingly bred of Gaelic

>Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> Ref: ********

> Bill Gargan

> Coach:**********

> Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

>language of choice when swearing!

> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

>feast!

> Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

>...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:15:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Gregory Corso's "Marriage" is one of my all time favorite poems. I was

lecturing a group of high school students on The Beat Generation and I asked

if anyone had heard of Corso. Two seventeen-year-old boys had not only heard

of him but had written a paper on him (*surpirse!!*). I read "Marriage" to

them as poetry that gives you permission to laugh.

I have to be honest and say that as much as I love "Howl,""Kaddish," and

"Plutonian Ode," "Marriage" has probably had the most lasting impact on me

personally as Poetry giving you permission to laugh and have fun.

Speaking of laughing and having fun, check out Hal Sirowitz's "Mother Said."

You will not be the same when you finish.

Paul McDonald

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:15:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Antoine, it is a glub

In-Reply-To: <338ADBE4.71E1E18B@scsn.net>

you can be in my dream

if i can be in yours*

glub

it's not just for breakfast any more..

*bob dylan sed that.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:37:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

>Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

>seemingly bred of Gaelic

>Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

Geez, second time in less than a day that hurley has been mentioned in my

presence after 46 years of hurley-less existence. Something cosmic going on

around here.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:34:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: What kind of game does Chaput have?

Antoine:

What kind of game does Chaput have? Can I take him to my left? How

about the spin dribble and coming up with a left handed hook shot?\

I feel pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.

Peace,

:-)

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:40:23 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>

Subject: Kerouac's muse

I just wanted, in the midst of all this estate-babbel, to direct

attention to the stars. That's right. And more specifically the stars

towards the end of "on the Road" ("and tonight the stars'll be out, and

don't you know that God is Pooh Bear, the evening star must be drooping and

shedding her sparkled dims on the prairie, which is..."), and suggest these

stars be Kerouac's muse. They represent Salvatore's ability to finally

remember (that & the fact that Dean is gone, GONE, now for good). The stars

have been such an emblem ever since Emersons essays, and also gleam in

Salingers "Seymour, an introduction;" when Seymour critizices

Buddy's short-stories for not being honest enough. C'mon you can do better,

he says, and then asks Buddy: "Where all you're stars out? Did you write

you're heart out?"---The same way, maybe, Sal looks up into Deep Black and

opens his heart, thinking of Dean Moriarty, Old Dean Moriarty. He's at the

end, and the novel can finally begin...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:47:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

Comments: To: LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I love the smell of napalm in the morning, but my three-day

weekend is over and I've got to be able to concentrate at

my job. If I continue to be involved in the back-biting

and name-calling here, I'm simply not going to be able

to pay enough attention to the back-biting and name-calling

here at work. So I'm taking a break from BEAT-L for a little

while. Somebody let me know if it ever gets back to a nice

20 or 30 messages a day ...

Parting shots -- I'm glad a few people have expressed their

dissatisfaction with Rod Anstee's devices, and to those who

have called on me to join in on this, I can only say that

I've generally been too appalled at Gerald Nicosia's lack

of rhetorical finesse and self control to take much notice

of Rod's posts in the first place. I studied debate in

college (I got an A, and always won) and I have to say that

while there've been some excellent words written by the

peacemakers here at BEAT-L (and certainly some memorable

and wonderful moments, which I'll miss), the performances

by all the principal disputants have been unimpressive.

I'm now going to demonstrate my own (often highly

effective) rhetorical device here, which is to pick up

my papers, still talking, and walk out of the room in

disgust.

SIGNOFF BEAT-L.

Peace everybody. This morning the New York Times

uncovered a new holocaust on the shores of the Congo

River, near the site of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness."

There's got to be a better way. And I'm not finding

it here.

-----------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:52:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

> seemingly bred of Gaelic

> Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> Ref: ********

> Bill Gargan

> Coach:**********

> Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

> language of choice when swearing!

> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

> feast!

> Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

> ...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

an old Indian game ....

i think it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red

Rover now and mix up the sides a bit ...

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:55:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Antoine, it is a glub

Marie Countryman wrote:

> you can be in my dream

> if i can be in yours*

> glub

> it's not just for breakfast any more..

> ak

> mc

> *bob dylan sed that.

Dream I saw Saint Augustine

last night

and Joe Hill was his

back-up doo-dah singer

and he sent the whole

lot of us

packing

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:58:21 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

In-Reply-To: <v01530500afb05b2f8efa@[204.181.15.86]>

On Tue, 27 May 1997, Michael Czarnecki wrote:

> Geez, second time in less than a day that hurley has been mentioned in my

> presence after 46 years of hurley-less existence. Something cosmic going on

> around here.

Yep... lots of cosmicness ; although sadly not "cosmic" in the good old

stereotypical hippy "peace & love" sense, more along the lines of big

angry celestial objects scraping bits off on each other until eventually

the whole entire thing goes bang in a terrible supernova white fire the

light from which eventually reaches the planet Earth several millenia

later where nobody gives a fuck.

Olly.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:03:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: What kind of game does Chaput have?

At 09:34 AM 5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Antoine:

>What kind of game does Chaput have? Can I take him to my left? How

>about the spin dribble and coming up with a left handed hook shot?\

>I feel pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.

Grew up in Lowell in the "Acre". We were so poor they tore our house down

and built "slums". Couldn't aford to pay attention. I had to fight my way

across the North Common to get to school. Had to walk a mile to get to

school every day. UPHILL BOTH WAYS. Basketball!!!! SWIIIISH!!!!

>Peace,

> :-)

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:07:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: What kind of game does Chaput have?

Phil Chaput wrote:

> At 09:34 AM 5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >Antoine:

> >

> >What kind of game does Chaput have? Can I take him to my left? How

> >about the spin dribble and coming up with a left handed hook shot?\

> >

> >I feel pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.

> >

> Grew up in Lowell in the "Acre". We were so poor they tore our house down

> and built "slums". Couldn't aford to pay attention. I had to fight my way

> across the North Common to get to school. Had to walk a mile to get to

> school every day. UPHILL BOTH WAYS. Basketball!!!! SWIIIISH!!!!

> >Peace,

> > :-)

> >

> >--

> >Bentz

> >bocelts@scsn.net

> >

> >http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> >

swish

that sounds like an uptown court with actual nets...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:11:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

Levi Asher wrote:

> I love the smell of napalm in the morning, but my three-day

> weekend is over and I've got to be able to concentrate at

> my job. If I continue to be involved in the back-biting

> and name-calling here, I'm simply not going to be able

> to pay enough attention to the back-biting and name-calling

> here at work. So I'm taking a break from BEAT-L for a little

> while. Somebody let me know if it ever gets back to a nice

> 20 or 30 messages a day ...

> Parting shots -- I'm glad a few people have expressed their

> dissatisfaction with Rod Anstee's devices, and to those who

> have called on me to join in on this, I can only say that

> I've generally been too appalled at Gerald Nicosia's lack

> of rhetorical finesse and self control to take much notice

> of Rod's posts in the first place. I studied debate in

> college (I got an A, and always won) and I have to say that

> while there've been some excellent words written by the

> peacemakers here at BEAT-L (and certainly some memorable

> and wonderful moments, which I'll miss), the performances

> by all the principal disputants have been unimpressive.

> I'm now going to demonstrate my own (often highly

> effective) rhetorical device here, which is to pick up

> my papers, still talking, and walk out of the room in

> disgust.

> SIGNOFF BEAT-L.

> Peace everybody. This morning the New York Times

> uncovered a new holocaust on the shores of the Congo

> River, near the site of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness."

> There's got to be a better way. And I'm not finding

> it here.

> -----------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> ###################################

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

take care, Levi. probably visit the Queensboro and Kicks websites more

often now....

hope that either you or I or both are still alive when this thread ends

and something fresh could start again

somewhere round my corner

in a filling station called Oz.

bye,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:21:42 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: signoff

you all

just thought i would let you know that i can take no more of the community

erosion that has occured.

i am signing off.

please feel free to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write

poetry or just chat, my email is:

dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca

and im still hanging about the boho list as well.

in the meantime i will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.

your

derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:43:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

Comments: cc: brooklyn@netcom.com

In-Reply-To: <199705271347.GAA19990@netcom.netcom.com>

This is getting really bad. This used to be one of my favorite lists

because it was never boring and tedious, always interesting, and it never

fell into the personal conversations and arguements like every other list

on the freakin' planet did. I was ecstatic with Gerry Nicosia came onto

the list. "Wow," I thought, "what an incredible resource of information

this list is about to become", not that it wasn't already. Now Levi, who

inspired me to do my own beat site to bring all the best sites together

and give a central location for articles and information which made itself

available through this list. The information I've gotten of this list is

what got me an instructional assitantship for the Beat class we offer

here. The internet is going to be a big part of my contribution to that

class. What this list has become really turns my stomach. Gerry is a

great guy, from what I've read. He really cares about his cause, as do I

and many, many others. Phil and the others have also been valuable

resources and interesting commentators in the past. But there's more to

studying the Beats than this. There used to be so I know there can be

again. This back-and-forth bickering has got to stop before we lose

anymore list members. I remember when Ron Whitehead left the list as

well. I was sick of that mess the day it started. I miss his crazy posts

as well, and am eternally grateful for the posters, flyers, magazines, and

info he's sent my way since I first me him through this list. People like

Levi are institutions on this list and the reason it is such a pleasure to

be on. I hope you can come back soon Levi. If this keeps going on for

two more months, I may be joining you.

Regretfully yours,

------------------

Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:55:26 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: signoff

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> you all

> just thought i would let you know that i can take no more of the community

> erosion that has occured.

> i am signing off.

> please feel free to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write

> poetry or just chat, my email is:

> dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca

> and im still hanging about the boho list as well.

> in the meantime i will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.

> your

> derek beaulieu

It's really sad to see people like derek and levi leaving the list

because of what has been happening here and because of the incredible

post volume that I am also finding oppressive. I would welcome back the

old limit on posts per day and hope maybe we can all restrain ourselves

somewhat in the number of really extraneous posts. I have certainly

posted my share.

Missing the days of 25-30 posts a day and not sure how much longer I can

take it.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:56:27 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Copyright laws and the Privacy Act

David:

You asked whether posting private mail is a violation of copyright law. I don't

know about the law, but I know a lot about the Privacy Act of 1934, which

addresses the issue of whether or not communication intended for one party is

public domain. Specifically, this is the law that forbids evidence obtained

from phone-tapping to be used in court. It applies, too, to radio

communications, such as when the Coast Guard overhears drug runners talking

(which is how I know this particular law so well, being a former Coast Guard

radioman).

I'm not qualified to interpret the law, but I would guess that e-mail

communications and letters fall under the same category as radio and telephone

communications. Making any such communication public without the express

consent of the "sender" would be a violation of the Privacy Act, and probably

Hope this helps... and I hope it's accurate!

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:05:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: my condolences to whoever just "signed off"...

i just "signed on" and wanted to try out sending a message....

i would like to discuss William S. Burroughs' Western Lands and his general

philosophy, which intrigues me, and which I see evidence of

everywhere....perhaps his plan of infiltration has worked after all. Much

more effective than many supposedly subversive writers/artists. Gives me

faith of sorts, that once people take that step forward in consciousness(or

rather, once it is taken for them) there's no going back.

Although i was doubtful about the use of the internet at first, i now think

that it is an invaluable distributor of information and ideas. Kind of

terrifying the power and ferocity with which ideas reproduce themselves,

contaminating increasing #s & causing imperceptible mutations that have

revolutionary resonance WITHOUT AN IDENTIFIABLE SOURCE.

With authorship comes responsibility but who in her left mind would want to

take credit/get recognition for propelling fellow humans even faster towards

the Inevitable by reconciling them with it? Is that the purpose of art, to

heal? Is it possible to heal too much and in doing so forget about necessary

pain?

Which is the greater burden, life or death? Ok, i don't wanna start getting

cosmic on you, but i hope we have something to talk about now, and i don't

want any more people signing off because they're bored. Remember: Bored Is

Boring. what happened to the lost art of imagination? jeesus why do i feel

like i'm typing into a void.(don't answer

that)!!!!!!!!----------------Marioka7@aol.com (aka maya)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:24:43 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

Reply to message from stratis@ODYSSEE.NET of Tue, 27 May

Which side would the elf be on? :)

Diane.

>Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

>seemingly bred of Gaelic

>Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> Ref: ********

> Bill Gargan

> Coach:**********

> Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

>language of choice when swearing!

> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

>feast!

> Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

>...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

--Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:30:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...

Marie Countryman wrote:

> wes wrote

> >Hello, Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's a reason I never post

> >anything

> >to Rod Anstee. I still remember the crap he threw at Ron Whitehead (not to

> >mention others). He's a man with his own agenda, and he does what strikes

his

> >fancy... whether anybody "puts up with it" or not. Silence is not being

party

> >to him. So, since my inaction is a statement, let the statement be I

> >won't be a

> >party to any of it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my

> >actions

> >or reactions. As I posted in an open letter to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's

> >made his point, and made it well. The other guys are just making asses out

> >themselves... my impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.

> >

> >Why should I waste my time posting to them? It won't change anything they

do.

> >Only reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.

> >

> >All the best, ---Wes

> *****************

> hello wes! couldnt agree more, and believe i said same the last time rod

> bullied one of our angels off list, i still miss ron whitehead, too, wes.

> and i dislike bullies intensely.

> yrs

> mc

yess, another vote for deleting those that underestimate thier audiance.

I resisted critiqueing ra terrible wandering sentences.

but Gerald is way above it. jerry you are a born rabble rouser, i like

that,

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:53:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick

>Doesn't the notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?

No, it doesn't. I checked with the Bible (aka Chicago Manual of Style). Fair

use is very complicated of course, but the fact that material is unpublished

does not negate fair use. It is a complicating factor, and the Manual

suggests using even more caution than usual in quoting from unpublished

material, but the doctrine still holds.

In any case, the overriding issue here is whether you can *look at* material

without permission from both parties.

For those that are interested, the following components determine fair use:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether or not it's for

commercial or not for profit educational purposes

the nature of the copuyrighted work

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the

copyrighted work as a whole

the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the

copyrighted work.

There is nothing in this to stop scholars making photocopies for their own

scholarly purposes. The Kerouac estate might legtimately want to stop

extensive quotation from letters or notebooks because it would affect

adversely their own future sales of books based on those works, and they

would have the legal right to do that. But what we're talking about is

whether they have the legal right to stop someone looking at letters in an

archive.

Nick

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:26:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Ma Tucker

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> This is one I never finished. I figured it was beyond my reach and was

> really a short story.

> (snipped)

I think you should leave it the way it is. Great ending.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:29:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

RACE --- wrote:

> Antoine Maloney wrote:

> >

> > Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

> > seemingly bred of Gaelic

> > Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> >

> > Ref: ********

> >

> > Bill Gargan

> >

> > Coach:**********

> >

> > Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> >

> > Team members:************

> >

> > The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> >

> > Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> >

> > Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> >

> > Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> >

> > Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> >

> > Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> >

> > Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

> > language of choice when swearing!

> >

> > ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

> > feast!

> >

> > Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

> > ...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> > Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> >

> > "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to

do!"

> > -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

> an old Indian game ....

> i think it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red

> Rover now and mix up the sides a bit ...

> david rhaesa

David,

I think you should be the sub ref. Did I read you coached debating at

Dartmouth?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:46:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Copyright laws and the Privacy Act

Wes Lundburg wrote:

> David:

> You asked whether posting private mail is a violation of copyright law. I

don't

> know about the law, but I know a lot about the Privacy Act of 1934, which

> addresses the issue of whether or not communication intended for one party is

> public domain. Specifically, this is the law that forbids evidence obtained

> from phone-tapping to be used in court. It applies, too, to radio

> communications, such as when the Coast Guard overhears drug runners talking

> (which is how I know this particular law so well, being a former Coast Guard

> radioman).

> I'm not qualified to interpret the law, but I would guess that e-mail

> communications and letters fall under the same category as radio and telephone

> communications. Making any such communication public without the express

> consent of the "sender" would be a violation of the Privacy Act, and probably

> copyright law as a result.

> Hope this helps... and I hope it's accurate!

> ---Wes

my hunch is the Privacy Act restrictions are negative restraints on

government intrusion into private communications. i'm certain it is

accurate in that regard. don't know if it more than an ethical analogy

to the question here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:52:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

Diane Carter wrote:

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > Antoine Maloney wrote:

> > >

> > > Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

> > > seemingly bred of Gaelic

> > > Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> > >

> > > Ref: ********

> > >

> > > Bill Gargan

> > >

> > > Coach:**********

> > >

> > > Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> > >

> > > Team members:************

> > >

> > > The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> > >

> > > Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> > >

> > > Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> > >

> > > Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> > >

> > > Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> > >

> > > Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> > >

> > > Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

> > > language of choice when swearing!

> > >

> > > ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

> > > feast!

> > >

> > > Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

> > > ...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care

less!?!

> > > Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> > >

> > > "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to

> do!"

> > > -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

> >

> > an old Indian game ....

> >

> > i think it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red

> > Rover now and mix up the sides a bit ...

> >

> > david rhaesa

> David,

> I think you should be the sub ref. Did I read you coached debating at

> Dartmouth?

> DC

in another lifetime .... you could not PAY ME ENUF to referee this

foray!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:39:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Ginsberg poem

ran across a poem by AG that kind of describes how I feel today

We Rise on Sun Beams

and Fall in the Night

Dawn's orb orange-raw shining over Palisades

bare crowded branches bush up from the marshes--

New Jersey with my father riding automobile

highway to Newark airport--Empire State's

spire, horned buildingtops, Manhattan

rising as in W.C. Williams' eyes between wire trestles--

trucks sixwheeled steady rolling overpass

beside New York--I am here

tiny under sun rising in vast white sky

staring thru skeleton new buildings,

with pen in hand awake....

Allen Ginsberg

December 11, 1974

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:05:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Thugs

May 27, 1997

To all the Good and Friendly Folk on the Beat List:

I hope the past week has been instructive to you all.

We have seen the three chief representatives of Mr. Sampas's point

of view--Phil Chaput, Rod Anstee, and Paul Maher--employ the tactics of thugs.

I do not know whether any of these three has been hired by Mr.

Sampas to represent him, or whether they have chosen to do their dirty work

freelance. At least one, Mr. Chaput, has admitted he gets "some" of his

material from Mr. Sampas.

Mr. Chaput has posted privileged information from Jan Kerouac's

income tax returns here on the Beat-List--material that could not have come

to him thru any lawful channel.

Mr. Chaput has accused me of breaking the law by reselling

individual xerox copies of Kerouac's letters (not for profit)--copies that

had been made solely for study--to a library, which also claimed to me that

it would use them only for study purposes. He could not, however, produce a

statute that indicated this was a crime.

Mr. Anstee has gone farther. He has claimed that I sold (or

donated, he couldn't quite get that straight) xerox copies of Kerouac

letters THAT BELONGED TO COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY to the U Mass, Lowell library.

The only problem with that is, there are no xeroxes from Columbia University

in the MEMORY BABE archive in U Mass, Lowell. In other words, not to put

too fine a point upon it, Mr. Anstee's accusation was an outright lie.

Then we have Mr. Maher, a convicted thief himself, accusing me of

having sold a "stolen, worthless archive" to U Mass, Lowell. The University

of Massachusetts is not in the habit of buying stolen material; and the

archive has been there for ten years, eight of which it was in full public

display (so public in fact that someone stole 60 autograph letters); yet NOT

ONE SINGLE COMPLAINT OR LEGAL ACTION WAS ACTUALLY FILED AGAINST IT.

Futhermore, as for the archive being "worthless," there are four

major American libraries that are willing to pay Lowell their $7,500 back to

recover the archive and make it available to the public--as soon as Lowell

agrees to divest of it.

Beyond this, we have Mr. Anstee printing my private letters here on

the Beat-List. A writer's private letters are given the strictest copyright

protection under U.S. federal law, and that protection has been upheld in

every court decision I know of--including the famous one that kept a

biographer (I forget his name) from including any of J.D. Salinger's

personal letters in an unauthorized biography.

Because the Beat-List is a public forum does not mean people can

keep breaking the law here with impunity.

Some people have expressed their concern that I was "driven off the

Beat-List like Ron Whitehead." I have not been driven off, but neither do I

intend to keep arguing with criminals and thugs.

I will speak to one of my lawyers today, to see what legal action

can be taken to keep these crimes from continuing.

Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:09:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Libraries and Permissions

Here's my report from a good contact in the University Library.

1. Most libraries expect and allow open access to collections, open at any

rate to 'qualified' persons.

2. Sometimes the deal made by the person selling the archive insists on

restrictions, which the library obeys (i.e. letters not to be looked at

until ten years after death of the writer). Note the agreement is with the

person selling the archive, not the copyright holder.

3. The copyright holder can restrict publication of copyright material, but

my librarian did not feel they could legally restrict access if it was not

the copyright holder that made the sale or donation.

4. It is not necessary to obtain permissions to *look at* letters in an archive.

So if UM Lowell are restricting access to the Memory Babe archive, that is a

decision they are making on their own, under pressure from whoever... it

sounds like it runs against the agreement made between them and Gerry

Nicosia at the time of the sale of the archive, and depending on that

agreement they are certainly disobeying the spirit of it, and quite possibly

the letter of the law in that agreement too.

If they are unwilling to open the archive, I think they should be prepared

to admit the reasons for this and sell it back to Gerry or on to another

library.

And if the Sampas family want to restrict access to *this* archive, it's

hardly surprising that so little of their archive is in library hands and

open to inspection, is it?

And please don't tell me the Kerouac archive is their property and they can

do what they like with it legally and we should be grateful for small

crumbs. I know it's theirs legally. But we are dealing with the legacy of

one of the great

American writers and there are moral and scholarly obligations that come

with owning the archive as well as ownership and collecting royalties. One

question - is the remainder of the archive being properly cared for, under

security and proper climate control?

Nick W-W

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:10:07 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Hoops Anyone?

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

How did I end up on a team? I thought I was doing a pretty good job of staying

out of this... You know, I'd really rather be playing opposite Dennis Rodman...

at least I know what he'll do and why...

Peace... (if that means anything anymore)

---Wes Lundburg

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:33:37 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Litigation Theology

In-Reply-To: <338A1061.E26B1899@scsn.net>

Dear R. Bentz Kirby, Esq.:

Very generous of you circumstantially. (But for gad's sake, let us reserve

the right to fight over the depositions of our lives.) For me, you

momentarily restored a little wryness to the twists and turns of the

BeatList. (I'm not been honest--sometimes when I read the dozens of daily

posts re: the Estate Wars I break into hysterical giggles at the insults,

Marie's simple to the point gads, and the horror! the horror!, perpetually

agast but not forlorn.) My remarks were aimed at you, but don't worry, I'm

no Zen archer. I endure wide of the mark and am more likely to hit the

cat's ass than the bull's eye. And I have to concede that one of my

favorite students is now a lawyer (he had the wisdom never to take a course

from me) (he wanted to be a writer but as far as he got was jumping into

the Hemingway pool in Key West with his clothes on, despite the horror of

the tour guides and the six-toed cats, now is working himself to death in

Chattanooga before daylight til long after darkness and just wants to spend

more time with his kids and says he will never be able to pay off his

student loans). Yes, I am indeed a John R., but without contract,

portfolio, or estate, hence my fabled savoir-faire.

J. Model A Ford Mitchell, M. A. (in English!)

>John Mitchell wrote,

>> The problem with lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come

>> so

>> highly and peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's

>> gasoline).

>> That's just MO(loch).

>> Thanks, but asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is

>> like

>> asking the Devil in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy

>> to

>> speak, given either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others

>> twisted

>> around their own feet.

>> That's just my theory of Litigation Theology.

>> Rertospectively yrs.,

>> John M.

>> Be cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't drool.

> ROTFLMAO, even it is aimed at me. Good post John. By the way, were

>you kin to John R. ;-)

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:38:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?

Beat Friends,

Through all this estate shit, one of the most intelligent posts that

graced my mailbox said, basically, "You know, Kerouac wasn't the only

Beat."

Seeing two of the more vocal members of our humble ranks give up the ghost

today was terribly disheartening. I have to ask why? How did all this get

so damned out of hand? What's the point? And most importantly, where did

it get us?

Absofuckinglutely nowhere.

What happens now? Our list that used to boast nearly 250 lovers of Beat

Literature and Culture is now shrinking, and to what ends? It's no one's

fault, we all contributed in our own way.

But to get to the subject of my post. . . where is the rest of the

Beat-L? Leon, where are you? How about a Neal Cassady story? Mongo? How

about you? Got anything for us? Or have you two left us as well?

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:08:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hoops Anyone?

I'm OK with the team I'm on. I just don't want to be traded!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:41:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?

sniff, snifff.....SOBB!!!

This has been such an eventful and emotional first day at Beetle for me. I

mean betel. I mean Be-till. Beat-ill? but I digress.

Thank you Bruce for filling me in on what has been going on. It sounds like

a whole lot of people are MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY AND SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ON

THIS LIST. Please, have a little perspective. So, now that everything is

crumbling it's the PERFECT time for a change of direction, no?

All those in favor, don't respond.

I'm glad so many of you agree with me.

Ok, now let's move on. How about a Topic of the Day?

I propose: William Burroughs. One burning question among many: How can I get

in touch with him????

Let me tell you a story. It's a bizarre, strange, hauntingly morbid story

that I actually shouldn't tell you in "public". Well here's the "cleaned up"

version: Mr. Burroughs and I have some, er, shall we say CHARACTERISTICS in

common. I had never thought much of him as a writer or knew much about him

until I read "the Western Lands" and learned that he studied the EXACT same

thing as me in college and made references on several occasions in interviews

and the like to obscure subjects that I thought were my private territory,

such as the mysterious ways of the Axolotl. among many others. Well, I don't

want to bore you, so if you want more details, e-mail me : Marioka7@aol.com

(or get myself in trouble by revealing too much)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:17:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?

In-Reply-To: <199705271840.OAA24405@everest>

leon is travelling and not sure he has access to modem.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:35:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Poem I discovered this weekend

So much pain and angst going down. I thought I'd share a poem from someone I

discovered who REALLY has problems...

Paul

********************************************************************************

DIRTY DIAPERS

I could never understand how the Germans

could hate us, Mother said, just because

we were Jewish, but what's even harder

for me to understand is that you could

hate me just because I'm your mother.

Someone has to tell you to go to bed early,

& if I don't, & you fall asleep in class, your teacher

could tell a social worker from a child abuse agency,

& they could take you away from me,

which might not be so bad if it was

only for a weekend, because I could use

a rest from you, but if it was for

a longer period of time, it'd slowly kill me.

I hope you know that you were a planned child,

your father & I really wanted you, even though

we weren't sure what we were getting.

You weren't an accident, though before

you were toilet trained you had plenty

of those. And I had to clean it up,

though I never once held it against you,

it just took you a while to develop

the proper sphincter control, & I thought

that when you got older you could make it up

to me, & clean the bathroom for me once in a while.

---Hal Sirowitz

from the Book "Mother Said, Poems by

Hal Sirowitz"

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:35:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Well, my day and some suggestions have gotten the better of me.

Several people backchanneled me about my proposed letter to the

library at Lowell. I have recieved some good suggestions, and

one of them is to not send the letter. Others have posted to

the list their points.

My concern is how can we find out what is in the archives, and

if there, who put it there. That is to say, What did Gerry put

there? Because the archive is closed, I fail to see how we can

find out, except to ask.

I am going to rework slightly the letter tonight, but intend to

send it tomorrow.

Any more comments are welcome.

Peace,

--------------------------------------------------------

Name: R. Bentz Kirby

E-mail: R. Bentz Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>

Date: 05/27/97

Time: 16:30:47

This message was sent by Z-Mail Pro - from NetManage

NetManage - delivers Standards Based IntraNet Solutions

--------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:05:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

In a message dated 97-05-27 10:08:31 EDT, you write:

<< The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters >>

I'd rather be on the side I am. Phil said he's bringing the beer and Ann's

making the potato salad.

stretching out, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:26:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Poem I discovered this weekend

wow that was fabulous and such a breath of fresh levity in the otherwise

torpid and moldy environment that Beet-ill has been on this balmy day in the

murder capital of our nation, otherwise known as 'DC'.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:38:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Beats out West

This summer I'm doing an independent study on 20th Century Western

American Lit, and as my specialty is the beats; I see a lot of connections

between the ideals expressed by the beats and those expressed by the

writers I'm reading. Aside from political concerns such as environment

and rejection of an outside, displaced authority; there's that idea of

personal, inner freedom as well as the idea of man as a supreme being in

an individual universe which I think Kerouac expressed a lot through his

singular narrative skills. I'm making my way through Zane Grey for back

ground then into Thomas McGuane (who I've not read but read about), Jim

Harrison, Edward Abbey, John Nichols, and Ivan Doig. Any thoughts? Esp.

on McGuane, Harrison, and Abbey.

------------------

Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:29:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Poem I discovered this weekend

"....& I thought

that when you got older you could make it up

to me, & clean the bathroom for me once in a while."

Thanks Paul - perfect voice; I can hear my voice overlaid on my

mother's!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:42:14 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Mamma said there'd be days like this...

If I remember correctly (which I very well might not), I _think_ this poet

was at Hiram College my freshman year in honor of our first poetry slam....

I'm 67.84% sure he was the one...what I do remember correctly is that the

B-Side (our student-run coffee shop where the slam was held) was

_incredibly_ crowded that night, I was sitting in the middle of the floor,

surrounded by people I hardly knew (only as a freshman at Hiram can this

happen :). Kat Snider Blackbird was the other visiting poet helping us out

with this indenture, & the male visiting poet kept reading these "Mother

Said" poems which had us all cracking up...Sirowitz's been on MTV before,

hasn't he?

Diane.

"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

--Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:24:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: who is your dad? and letter to kerouac

At 04:32 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi

>I'm a lurker turning active now. I have a quick question for phil who

>is your dad is mentioned in any of Kerouac's books or any such thing?

>It seems that a lot of people here have known each other for years

>through families even. I never met any of the beats but I was going to

>try to meet Ginsburg and as luck has it the year I'm moving back to New

>York he dies.

Peter, My father isn't in any of Kerouac's books because my father only got

to know Jack in the last three or four years of his life. I have heard

through Billy Koumantzelis (Jack's close friend) that Jack was writing a lot

during his trip to NY to be on the William Buckley Show. Jack was with my

dad, Billy and Tony Sampas so that stuff may turn up some day. They grew up

in the same parts of town and with the same background (French Canadian

Catholic) but they didn't meet until Tony Sampas introduced him at the

infamous "Nicky's" bar around 1966. My dad's first words to Jack were,

"Always glad to buy a starving author a drink." They became great friends

and I venture to say some of the best times of my dad's life were the few

years he spent with Jack. My dad is mentioned in several biographies though.

His first name is Joe and the best compliment Jack ever paid him is when he

said he was the second best driver he ever knew. Classy company. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:12:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Ann Charters & James Stauffer

May 27, 1997

Yesterday James Stauffer wrote:

"In his [Gerry Nicosia's] last backchannel to me he was explaining

how essentially he is responsible for everything Ann Charters knows about

Jack. She speaks respectfully of him, he can't mention her without

remembering that she didn't take his side with Jan. Maybe Jan was an angel,

or maybe she was hard to deal with--I don't know, but it seems to me that

Ann's failure to join Jan's cause doesn't just wipe out her biographical and

editing achievements."

Methinks Mr. Stauffer doth protest too much.

While he always complains about the sound and fury of the estate

battle, he here throws more gasoline on the fire.

That is not what I said to him in my backchannel.

AND YES, FOLKS, I'M KEEPING MY WORD ABOUT NO MORE ESTATE FIGHT

POSTINGS, BUT THIS REGARDS A SERIOUS MISQUOTE, AND IT NEEDS ANSWERING.

After all, Ann Charters probably subscribes to the Beat-List Digest,

which is sent free to all friends of John Sampas. (That's a joke.)

In reality, she may well end up reading some of the things that are

written/said here.

Mr. Stauffer sent me a very leading and provocative question, in

fact a kind of taunt:

Why, he asked, didn't you quote more from Ann Charters in your

biography of Kerouac MEMORY BABE, since Ann is the preeminent Kerouac scholar?

I backchanneled him because I really don't want to print critical

things here about Ann, or about anyone. Ann, incidentally, often disses me

with the best of them. In the last interview of hers I read in the LONDON

TELEGRAPH, she refers to "Gerald Nicosia ... that tiresome wannabe."

Anyway, now I'll have to print my backchannel to James publicly,

since, while hardly flattering of Ann, it is nowhere near as dismissive of

her as he makes out.

The point I was trying to make to him is that, when I began my

biography of Kerouac in 1977, Ann was not the world-renowned Kerouac

authority she is now. Rather than rehash Ann's biography, I preferred to

learn about Kerouac by going on the road, 50,000 miles worth, and

interviewing 350 people who knew him, as well as reading through thousands

of pages of Beat archives in about a dozen libraries.

I was also trying to make the point that since 1977 I have lived in

Beat communities of writers, have gone to 100's of poetry readings, given

readings of my own poetry with many Beat poets such as Bob Kaufman, David

Meltzer, and Harold Norse, and staged dozens of readings for others. I

number at least two dozen Beat writers as close friends, and I doubt Ann can

claim that--and I don't mean "friend" as someone she sees at an occasional

Beat conference or writes to for a contribution to an anthology. I mean

people who come to my home regularly, spill wine in and on my piano, piss

off my wife, etc.

I never publicly claimed to have taught Ann anything about Kerouac,

though I suspect she learned a few things from MEMORY BABE. She quoted from

MEMORY BABE, in fact, when she spoke at the Rencontre Internationale Jack

Kerouac in Quebec City in 1987. And she referred to it as "the most factual

account of Kerouac's life" in THE BEAT READER. Before she began calling me

a "tiresome wannabe," she even wrote a blurb for MEMORY BABE that went

"Gerald Nicosia's dedicated scholarship in MEMORY BABE has added important

new material that significantly expands our knowledge of Kerouac and his

literary achievement."

Do I wish she'd go away as a Kerouac scholar? No. I just wish

she'd stop acting as if I should go away.

Herewith my backchannel to Mr. Stauffer (the part responding to his

question about why there is not more reference to Ann Charter's work in

MEMORY BABE):

"You must remember that when I started MEMORY BABE in 1977, Ann's

was not the "best known" Kerouac biography, it was the ONLY Kerouac

biography. As such, it was very thin--she had interviewed 20

people--whereas I went out and interviewed 350 people. My knowledge of

Kerouac's life became encyclopedic and far more thorough than Ann's. To

this day, she can't tell Janine Pommy Vega from Joanna McClure--at the San

Francisco Book Fair, last November, when WOMEN OF THE BEAT GENERATION was

being promoted with a big panel (Ann was the moderator), Ann misintroduced

Joanna McClure, Michael's wife and a well-known poet herself, as Janine

Pommy Vega.

I have lived, hung out with, written and read my own poetry among

the Beats for the last 20 years, and I hardly felt there was much Ann could

clue me in on about the Beat world--she who has spent most of her life in

academia.

Her editing, which has brought her such a big name, only began in

the late 1980's, and then took off like a rocket when Sampas offered her

dozens of projects. In 1977, she was not known as a Beat editor at all."

--Ge

rald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:10:26 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Arno Selhorst <catweasel@USA.NET>

Subject: More substantial talk less name-calling.

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@IBM.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>

Hey out there!

Now, since August 1995 I am a more or less quiet participant of our list

here. I was always suprised by the cautious and friendly manner in which all

of you held your comments about all kinds of Beat related topics. But now,

alas, this spirit got quite spoiled.

BUT!

Then there are also new members to our community here like Maya Gorton who

just signed on! They might be the next talk-a-lots here. And they are the

ones I put all my hopes into, because they weren't here when the sh.. hit

the fan.

Welcome Maya!

Talking about Burroughs` Infiltration Theory one can come up with the most

horrible visions of the world we live in today. Wired ran an article on

Information Warfare in it's latest issue. In this article the author claimed

that to conquer a country in this time you will first have to infiltrate

this country with precise misinformation to melt down their own social

bounds within their society (sounds a lot like Burroughs talking here). Just

tell them that their entire country will go down the drain and chaos might

start to fire up. "Those whom the I-War Gods destroy, they first make mad."

(Wired p.228 May `97).

I start to worry about Burroughs next visions about society...

Take care everyone

and stop the name calling in favour for some constructive beat discussion.

Yours Arno Selhorst

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:47:48 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: who are we?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.96.970527102829.29914A-100000@xx.acs.appstate.e du>

WHO,

WHO, are we?

i think is a bit

wrong to leave the list

'cuz the amount

of posts

first u must have

an ethical way of life

to justify yr decision

this american gothic saga

'bout the estate

is sad awright

but the rude men

are also

in a

little cest

i think

a poster to the list

a spontanenous writer

thinking machine

yrs rinaldo

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:08:55 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: WHO, are

WHO,

WHO, are we?

i think is a bit

wrong to leave the list

'cuz the amount

of posts

this american gothic saga

'bout the estate

is sad awright

but the rude men

are also

in a

little chest

yrs rinaldo

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:08:40 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: WHO,

WHO,

WHO, are we?

i think is a bit

wrong to leave the list

'cuz the amount

of posts

i think

a poster to the list

a spontaneous writer

a thinking machine

yrs rinaldo

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:23:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Beats out West

Alex,

Consider reading Gretel Ehrlich's "The Solace of Open Spaces" and "A

Match to the Heart" (1994). Both great books and great western writing.

Edward Abbey is a complete treat; particularly enjoyed "Desert Solitaire".

And listen to James McMurtry's music (Larry's son!) while your reading.

The latest John McPhee reader has a fine essay about brand

inspectors and rustling in Nevada.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:43:09 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Contest

"Is the accuser always holy now? Were they born this morning as

clean as God's fingers?"

An autographed copy of MEMORY BABE will be sent to the first person

to correctly identify the source of this quote, both author and work.

One-part answers do not qualify.

Contest open to all except relatives and employees of Gerald Nicosia.

Those who already own an autographed copy of MEMORY BABE are asked

not to submit entries. Coaching friends is acceptable.

Winner will be notified by email.

-- Gerald

Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:45:55 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Desolation Peak

My wife and I are thinking of making a trip to Washington State and may take

some time to hike up Desolation Trail to Desolation Peak. There's a terrific

8 page article complete with photo's by John Suiter in the March 1997 edition

of Shambhala Sun.

Has anyone on the list ever done this? I'm curious as to details. How long

did it take you, how much time did you spend, where did you stay, etc.

An interesting point in the article is Suiter notes of all the fire lookouts

that were in use over the years, only two remain today - Jack's on Desolation

Peak and the one on Sourdough Mountain occupied by Gary Snyder and Philip

Whalen. Supposedly all the rest are gone - replaced by aircraft overflights.

Please send details if you have any.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:47:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: who is your dad? and letter to kerouac

woa. I saw Ginsberg read some poetry @Realityfest, this thing they had when

i went to Columbia. This guy sitting next to me puked on the floor but other

than that it was a pleasant experience, from the fragmented images i remember

from it.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:50:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: who is your dad? and letter to kerouac

Phil Chaput said:

"The best compliment Jack ever paid him is when he said he was the second

best driver he ever knew."

And I wonder who the first best driver was? ;^>

Hey, Phil, did you say earlier Joe was one of Jack's pallbearers? Tell us

about that if there's a story there.

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:55:28 -0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: west <anwest@UP.NET>

Subject: A quickie question

alright, I'm new here and basically new to Beat so this may be a stupid

question, but I was reading the portable Beat reader and an excerpt from

junk had a character named Jack that killed somebody with a pipe and a

faucet. Is that Mr. Kerouac?

west

I belong to the blank generation

and I can take or leave it each time

-Richard Hell

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:12:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Guidelines for Discourse

Over the past month or so, beat-l listmembers have been subjected to a

barrage of querulous and acrimonius posts concerning the Jack Kerouac

Estate and Gerry Nicosia's archive. Some of these posts have even

degenerated into name calling and accusations of unethical or even

illegal activities. As a result of the tonethese posts have taken,

several lismembers have unsubscribed and others are threatening to do

so. Lawsuits have also been threatened. For the health of the list and

for the protection of the rights of all listmembers, I am establing the

following guidelines for discussion of Beat-l: 1) Copyrighted material

should not be posted to the list without permission (fair use rules

applying) nor should private correspondence be posted without permission

from the author; 2) Listmembers will not accuse each other of various

crimes and misdemeanors on the Beat-l list (What you do privately is

your own business.); 3) Listmembers will refrain from flames, character

attacks, and personal insults in their posts to Beat-l (Again if you

feel compelled to such measures please email your adversary directly.)

Those who violate these rules will be subject to having their posts

blockedfrom the list. If some of you find such prescriptive guidelines

objectionable, I assure you I found it even more objectionable to have

to propose them. I am doing my best to save this list and welcome your

suggestions either on the list or privately. William Gargan

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:09:54 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Guidelines

Please excuse the typos in my last posting.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:18:32 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse

At 06:12 PM 5/27/97 EDT, you wrote:

>Over the past month or so, beat-l listmembers have been subjected to a

>barrage of querulous and acrimonius posts concerning the Jack Kerouac

>Estate and Gerry Nicosia's archive. Some of these posts have even

>degenerated into name calling and accusations of unethical or even

>illegal activities. As a result of the tonethese posts have taken,

>several lismembers have unsubscribed and others are threatening to do

>so. Lawsuits have also been threatened. For the health of the list and

>for the protection of the rights of all listmembers, I am establing the

>following guidelines for discussion of Beat-l: 1) Copyrighted material

>should not be posted to the list without permission (fair use rules

>applying) nor should private correspondence be posted without permission

>from the author; 2) Listmembers will not accuse each other of various

>crimes and misdemeanors on the Beat-l list (What you do privately is

>your own business.); 3) Listmembers will refrain from flames, character

>attacks, and personal insults in their posts to Beat-l (Again if you

>feel compelled to such measures please email your adversary directly.)

>Those who violate these rules will be subject to having their posts

>blockedfrom the list. If some of you find such prescriptive guidelines

>objectionable, I assure you I found it even more objectionable to have

>to propose them. I am doing my best to save this list and welcome your

>suggestions either on the list or privately. William Gargan

Amen.

-- Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:23:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: SAMPAS WHO? Re: a calm request

Smart went crazy.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:32:23 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MORE OXY THAN MORON <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

I first met Dean not long after BEAT-L and I split up. I had just gotten over a

serious estate battle that I won't bother to talk about, except that it had

something to do with the miserably weary split-up feeling that the list was

dead...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:44:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Some Old Guy

I'm water falling

down a sidewalk

through some tunnel

thinking about my hanging

hang over

when this old guy

with a cane and a cap

that red

miserable old bastard

passed me by

with words

to the effect

it's slippery out here son

and some slippery light

fleetingly filled the tunnel

to illuminate the shephard

and I felt like sheep

keep sliding.

James M.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:03:20 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats out West

In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.96.970527173104.14181B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>

IM HO HO HO, McGuane is Key West literary conch fritters, now Montana

cowboy blues--parallel elf-proclaimed outlaw writer like Willy Nelson, but

not really Beat (which is peculiarly caf=E9 Fran=E7ais in some ways), all dr=

ugs

and refried beans, no Zen and green tea, no Doc Benway really, more

Parrothead than Deadhead, more Margaritaville than North Beach & Greenwich

Village, more island in the sun than road on the go, more Kesian than

Kerouacian, but I'd be interested in what you say anyway. (My favorite

McGuane thing is an essay, "The Longest Silence," his permit fish story,

where he's not such a nouveau metaphor freak.) // John M.

>This summer I'm doing an independent study on 20th Century Western

>American Lit, and as my specialty is the beats; I see a lot of connections

>between the ideals expressed by the beats and those expressed by the

>writers I'm reading. Aside from political concerns such as environment

>and rejection of an outside, displaced authority; there's that idea of

>personal, inner freedom as well as the idea of man as a supreme being in

>an individual universe which I think Kerouac expressed a lot through his

>singular narrative skills. I'm making my way through Zane Grey for back

>ground then into Thomas McGuane (who I've not read but read about), Jim

>Harrison, Edward Abbey, John Nichols, and Ivan Doig. Any thoughts? Esp.

>on McGuane, Harrison, and Abbey.

>------------------

>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

>kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

>http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:07:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

I Used to Remember Heaven

Purpose with a feeling, Feeling with a purpose.

One of those is right, and yesterday I could remember;

The shadows on the wall, that Socrates saw,

The quantum dream, we ARE each other's dream,

Not just in them. Dream me, I dream you, watcha gonna do?

No, I clearly remember that I used to know so much more

Than I know now. My six year old daughter says,

Daddy will you tell me about God, I seem to be

Forgetting her now, I used to remember heaven.

Oh yes, and so did I Sarah, so did I.

Draft No.1

May 27, 1997

R. Bentz Kirby

Columbia, SC 8:04P.M.

God bless this list and my children,

Peace,

I ain't signing off, but I am gonna beat a gone world.

--------------------------------------------------------

Name: R. Bentz Kirby

E-mail: R. Bentz Kirby <bocelts@scsn.net>

Date: 05/27/97

Time: 19:59:40

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:12:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Marie,

Do you have any idea when Leon will be rejoining us?

Thanks,

Bruce

--------------------------

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:17:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

In-Reply-To: <009B4E5D.2A677520.9@kenyon.edu>

On Tue, 27 May 1997, MORE OXY THAN MORON wrote:

> I first met Dean not long after BEAT-L and I split up. I had just gotten over

> serious estate battle that I won't bother to talk about, except that it had

> something to do with the miserably weary split-up feeling that the list was

> dead...

Doesn't Jack in this intro sound much like Salinger, beginning of _Catcher

in the Rye_? Now has this been mentioned before, or am I imagining a

discussion that never was?

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:22:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: setting record straight

May 27, 1997

Yesterday James Stauffer wrote:

"My recollection is that Gerry Nicosia brought this fight to this list."

No, James. Joe Grant started some posts here back in April. I did not tell

him to do this, nor did I know he was doing it. Joe then emailed me and

told me that, in response to his posts, Mr. Anstee and Mr. Chaput were

saying some rather scathing things about me.

Hearing that--especially after having helped Rod Anstee with his

Kerouac projects for 13 years--made me decide to jump on here and tell my

own side of the story.

The next thing I knew I was being charged with everything from

attacking the Lowell Kerouac Committee to selling stolen goods.

Just setting the record straight. Not flaming.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:38:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: spontaneous sidewalk re-worked.

In a message dated 97-05-26 23:23:50 EDT, you write:

<< Tomorrow, Tuesday, let's have

everyone on the list post one poem, story, or idea about beat literature. >>

Beat-L:

I don't write, just edit, but a friend handed me this poem yesterday. I

thought it fit.

Pam Plymell

not finding your stone

under wet, long, half-dim grass

my hand drops

lilac

for allen ginsberg,

who is not buried in cherry valley

F. Bjornson

Stock

Memorial Day

1997

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:42:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Lowell author-Jay Pendergast

At 06:49 AM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-26 00:01:30 EDT, you write:

>> May 25,1997

>> Lowell author and friend of Jack Kerouac, Jay Pendergast died unexpectedly

>> this afternoon. Jay had just written a story about Jack in Paul Maher's

>> premiere issue of the "Kerouac Quarterly" his painting that Jack had given

>> him personally what I called "Beatnik Jesus" was on the cover. He was an

>> educator that taught English, Irish and American Literature as well as

>> History, Writing and Anthropology courses.

May 27, 1997

I taped a long interview with Jay Pendergast on his escapades with

Kerouac. This is one of the 300 tapes currently under seal, and

deteriorating for lack of proper care, at U Mass, Lowell. Alas.

-- Gerry Nicosia

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:38:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dirk Vulgate <BIGDUCK2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Thugs

In a message dated 97-05-27 12:11:33 EDT, you write:

<< I hope the past week has been instructive to you all.

We have seen the three chief representatives of Mr. Sampas's point

of view--Phil Chaput, Rod Anstee, and Paul Maher--employ the tactics of

thugs.

I do not know whether any of these three has been hired by Mr.

Sampas to

Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia

You are the biggest hypocrite I've ever listened to rant bullshit

anywhere. You are truly a sick person, Nicosia.

You have misled people here with your particular style of exaggaration

and lies. You have set back the cause of the preservation of Jack's works

irreparably. You have bullied your way around the BeatList, just as you've

bullied your way into every event where people had the audacity not to invite

you.

No one owes you anything, Nicosia. For that matter, until the

"fraudulent will" is proven (and I for one believe it is a forgery), John

Sampas doesn't owe anyone anything either. People who own and collect

Kerouac's papers, whether they're named Johnny Depp or Rod Anstee, also owe

you nothing, nor do they owe anything to the world. No one in this entire

battle is doing anything illegal - no one!

Even John Sampas, who obviously cares nothing for Kerouac's work and is

only trying to wring as many dollars out of DeadJack as he can is not a

criminal - at least, it hasn't been proven yet that he is. He demonstrated

his bad taste with the pathetic San Francisco Blues, his gigantic ego with

all his constant credit lines stamped on everything having anything to do

with Kerouac, and his lack of a clue with the choices of artists and

insulting performances on the putrid "kicks joy darkness" "tribute" CD. He

disgusts me, but you make me angry, because you've insinuated yourself into

the forefront of this issue, pushing everyone else out of the picture.

Look at the people you've alienated and hurt while constantly invoking

so-called Christian ethics and always signing off with the bitterly

sarcastic, phony, Nixon-plastic "Best, Gerry Nicosia." These people,

including Levi, Attila, Rod and Phil are all human beings--good human beings,

and they all have one thing in common: They once were your allies, and now

they are not.

But they're all too good to be your enemies. They know better. They

don't play your game of dividing people up into "All-Evil" or "All-Holy"

camps. These men, and the trail of bodies you've left behind you in your life

pulling the same stunts with former friends, they all know that life is not

black and white. They can find gray areas. That's where most of us live our

lives every day.

No one wants to work with you. No one wants to see you gain "control" of

Kerouac's archives. What "manifest destiny" has your fevered brain dreamed up

to make you believe it's okay to stampede over American literature and worry

about the consequences later? Your rampant ego and gigantic clay feet take up

all the room there is for rational discourse. I hope you fall on your own

sword, I really do.

I'm sorry that by writing this letter there will be a new flame war on

the list. But someone had to stand up and say we are ALL human here. Nicosia

is not a god; he's not even an unflawed authority on Kerouac. No one is.

If anyone here did some research into the history of Nicosia's

relationships with Anstee, Charters, Kovic and others he's mentioned in his

vomit of posts, you would understand that all his protests are simply a

Wizard of Oz curtain to keep people from seeing the wreckage of his own past.

I issue these opinions under my right to free speech, without cursing or

lying. I will not post again on this issue no matter what the response is

because this is all I want to say. Anyone who wants to comment directly to me

is welcome. But I'm not going to clog up the list with defenses of my

position or futile arguments.

This I vow, D. Vulgate, 5-27-97

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:50:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: Guidelines for Discourse-Sad day for beat-l